Most religious belief is purely subjective. There is no way of proving whether someone made it to heaven, or descended to hell. Was heaven a 5 star experience or a bit disappointing? Did the virgin birth really occur? Was Noah able to round up all the animals on earth and put them on his ark?
Where scientology is most problematic is when Hubbard made pronouncements that seemed unverifiable at the time, but are now shown to be ridiculous. Some of his statements about being on Venus or Mars for example. Or the supposed factual account of the History of Man including the Piltdown Man before it was discovered a fraud. And then there are statements like the ones contained in this promotional piece, proclaiming cause over life and death.
Surely in all these years one person who heard these lectures or had the auditing would have been able to experience death and come back to talk about it? Why do scientologists keep regurgitating this sort of thing, pretending there is nothing strange about promoting it in the face of evidence it is not true. There hasn’t been a single person since the 1950s who has been able to demonstrate the claims?
And what of the ultimate question?
If, as he proclaimed, L. Ron Hubbard had indeed transcended body death, why didn’t he return to finish his work of planetary clearing? After all, it’s a billion year commitment to achieving the aims of scientology that all Sea Org members make. And the motto of the Sea Org is “We Come Back.”
Just imagine how much attention it would get and how many people would be clamoring to be involved with scientology and go Clear if L. Ron Hubbard (or any Sea Org member) did in fact return with full recall of his most recent past life? It would be relatively easy to test and prove. He should be able to ace any such test. And in doing so, Hubbard would go a long way towards accomplishing what he said he set out to do –save mankind. He would prove that his discoveries work and millions, tens or hundreds of millions of people would clamor for a technology that could conquer death. It would make the clamor for a new iPhone look like a joke. Everyone would become a scientologists and mankind would be saved from the reactive mind and the psychiatrists and all the other ills that plague it and a cleared planet would be in hand.
In that context, why is it that L. Ron Hubbard has not manifested himself in a new body? He has “more important” things to do out there in “Target Two”? That is NOT what Keeping Scientology Working and other things he wrote say. Scientology on planet earth is the only hope for the entire UNIVERSE. And it is failing to live up to its stated aims. Is he willing to let the entirety of humanity and the future of mankind and this universe founder when he could simply save it all by demonstrating what he claimed he was able to do?
It surely helps Christianity that Jesus was raised from the cross. Hubbard and scientology could top that by demonstrating it can be learned by anyone who follows the scientology path to spiritual freedom and cause over life and death.
Food for thought.
Hi – a Christian here. I appreciate this fascinating discussion, tho’ h avent read all
posts yet. There’s a book about a 4-year- old boy’s visit to heaven during a near death
experience on the operating table. 3 minutes our time translated into much longer
time in heaven. The book is entitled, Heaven is for Real, but in it, the boy relays to
his pastor father, who authored the book, that Jesus told him that a person must have a
relationship with Jesus to be able to go there. Howevever, all kids get in, including theaborted and the miscarried. He saw his older sister whom he hadn’t met before or
known about. The boy is now a teenager, and can no longer remember everything, so
to have it preserved in a book is amazing. He said in it that kids there go to school,
and he was in class with them but can no longer remember their names.
You can look up on the internet the segment on the 700 Club at Christmas time
2013 or 2014, I think., the interview with dad and then 14 yr old son. I can’t just now
remember their names. Also, Perry Stone, on a recent program shared an archive of
he and his dad, who’s now passed on, about their vision/dreams in heaven.
A now deceased self-styled archeologist left a video of finding The Ark of theCovenant,
and ancient dried blood of which he took a sample, preserved, and had tested. Leaving
bac k out the tunnel, he sealed it off. The blood was able to be tested because blood
has a living component, he discovered, when rehydrated. It had, if I recall correctly,
27 chromozomes, 26 from a human parent, and just the y chromozome from the
Divine parent. The video is at RonWyatt.com, under a title containing the phrase,’Zedekiah’s Cave’, and it is a video of Ron Wyatt speaking.
Other archeological evidence he and his sons found can be seen and cn be read about
that confirm biblical accounts at http://www.pilgrimsprogress.com/WAR, or is it
http://www.pilgrimsprogress.org/WAR? Noah’s Ark, and Noah’s stone hut, maybe,
it’s fascinating. Hope you enjoy this second-hand archeological journey.
Linda
Oh Dear Ms. Linda, I’m so sorry to be the one to burst your bubble so to speak, but in 2015 that book was shown to be a fraud, and the child, whose father is a Pastor, recanted his story… he said he made it all up under pressure from his father. The book publishers have pulled this title and stores have returned their copies… here are a couple of news links: http://pulpitandpen.org/2015/01/13/the-boy-who-came-back-from-heaven-recants-story-rebukes-christian-retailers/ and http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/01/15/377589757/boy-says-he-didn-t-go-to-heaven-publisher-says-it-will-pull-book
Now, please still be of good cheer, just because one person fabricated a tale, doesn’t mean that heaven doesn’t exist. There is no “scientific proof” of it as of this moment, but many people have faith.
Believe what your conscience tells you, and my motto is “live and let live”. I respect other’s beliefs and in return expect them to respect mine. For Scientologists: L.Ron Hubbard said “what’s true for you is true”. I don’t happen to be a Scientologist though.
Reincarnation is within the realm of possibilities in my belief structure, and I believe we have a soul, consisting of many layers, perhaps from past lives. But I have no proof, so this is my own particular belief or faith.
What happens after we leave this life, I don’t know. I’d like to think there is a “better place” but until there is proof, I’m going to say the jury is out on this one. In case this present life is all there is for us, I’m being as good a person as I can in order to hopefully make a positive impact on the world and other beings, and leave this world and society a little better for my having lived. Sorry about the book. – T.J.
wait, I think I mis-quoted Hubbard about “what’s true for you”… anyone know the exact, correct quote? Please correct me.. thanks! 🙂
The quote is: “What is true for you, is true. Unless it contradicts El Con or another CoS executive.”
That’s not the same boy, that’s not the same book. For the second link you gave, I’m being blocked from the first. I’ll keep trying on that one.
I made a mistake on a link. The correct one is: http://www.pilgrimpromo.com/WAR. The WAR stands for Wyatt Archeological Research. Sorry about that.
Sometimes I feel like LRH opened a door and then slammed it shut to our faces.
Although I have no personal certainty on past life , I have this intimate feeling that reincarnation is the only common sense answer. I have been particularly interested in young children’s stories of last lifetime and a man who made it his business to research the stories for accuracy. Easy to google , I do not have names or sites at my fingertips.
Scientology has always seemed too solid , under the guise of personal freedom , it was a lot of effort all the freaking time , a lot of hiding and pretending.Too tiring really.
I loved the “I am” doc.
Still waiting for some aggressive 20 year old con artist to show up and claim to be LRH, kick out Miscavige and put him on the RPF for being so “down stat.” There’s more than enough background information available publicly about LRH and his writings for some enterprising young sociopath to attempt this project.
For whatever its worth, I do believe that I am a spirit contollng a mind which in turn is controlling a body. It makes sense to me and i am of the opinion that the truth of this is built into our very language, e.g. “MY mind”…”MY body”… Whose mind? Whose body? Who or what is the “owner” , you know? Well, I am. And “I” is not something that can be measured in the physical universe. OK, that’s just me and I’m not saying its right, just that it makes sense to me and works for me!
I also believe (although I have no personal reality on it) that we live again and again. Makes sense – everything else “comes back” – the flowers, the leaves, etc., all the things in nature, so – why not us? It just makes sense to me. I do believe that there is the spiritual life, or thetan, as its called in Scientology. Other religions call it something else. The nomenclature is not important to me and I’m not trying to be right about it. I just feel it, somehow.
Aqua – Your expression sounds to me like a nondualism viewpoint. If you haven’t already done so, you might take a look at an Adyashanti video on you tube. It resonates with me.
I was thinking the exact same thing when I read Aqua’s post. Adyashanti’s work is fantastic.
“Nothing is so firmly believed as what is least known.” – Montaigne.
Montaigne admonishes to be aware of such absolute certainty. Even the certainty of doubt.
Maybe the best viewpoint about whether past lives are real or not is to not give a shit one way or the other.
The Buddhists are thinking karma will get me, the Christians are thinking I’ll never get to heaven, and the aetheists are thinking make up your damn mind.
NotClear, this is exactly the conclusion I’ve come to. What does it matter? Whatever happens or is going to happen is going to happen whether I believe in it or not. What will be will be.
It’s brought me much peace. I simply don’t care one way or the other. Takes too much energy and is a waste of energy and time, IMO.
I’ve wasted so much time on this subject, I’m just enjoying my life now. And I’m happier.
🙂
This is like the ancient philosopher Epictetus on how to avoid disappointment when watching a sporting event: “I am for whatever happens to happen, and for whoever wins to win. That way I’m always on the victorious side.”
Lol! I always liked taking the easy way out!
As a young scientologist having had a background in yoga I was disappointed to learn that upon death you are supposed to AVOID the light, not go in to it as generally believed. You see, the light is NOT a divine one but an electronic implant device or something.
Hubbard was never a poet but aesthetically speaking his vision of spirituality was ugly and cold. An implant station instead of angels and heavenly realms???
Two thousand years ago Gnostics taught that “aesthetic angels and heavenly realms” were an implant control mechanism. They recommended avoiding the light at the end of the tunnel. They also knew about BTs and had a lot to say about them. For talking about these matters the Gnostics were persecuted by the Catholic Church to the point of genocide.
“Two thousand years ago Gnostics taught that “aesthetic angels and heavenly realms” were an implant control mechanism. They recommended avoiding the light at the end of the tunnel.”
Please send me a link to confirm this. 🙂
Search You Tube for “gnostics,” “demiurge,” “archons,” etc.
The philosophic main root of Scientology is Gnosticism.
Interesting…! Thank you.
Very interesting. I have recently been studying the work of Cameron Day at Ascensionhelp.com about this very subject.
The dependable answer to why LRH and other OTs don’t demonstrate their “cause over mest” abilities has always been, “We don’t do parlour tricks” – derived from something LRH said wherein he used that phrase.
Now, when I would receive this “no parlour tricks” excuse, I would always wonder, “Why not? Jesus did them, Moses did them. What’s wrong with a parlour trick here and there, not to show off or because someone’s too lazy to do it the long way, but occasionally, to help the expansion of Scientology, to help people – why the hell don’t some of you do a few parlour tricks, if you know how?”
In particular did I wonder (to myself) at all the “Postulate” seminars I attended wherein some OT would be up there showing us “how to make our postulates stick” for – well, usually it was for an Ideal Org.
So, me, I’d be in my chair, looking at the all knowing OT seminar leader up there, and I’d be silently wondering, “If you know how to do this so well, why don’t YOU put your postulate in, why don’t YOU get us a new building instead of struggling to show little us how to do it, why don’t YOU just DO it, for crying out loud?” It didn’t make sense to me. I knew if I knew how to postulate and just have it happen, just like that, well, I would do it!
Yes, people, sad to say, i was THAT gullible.
One of the problems or maybe I should say “challenges” that many people have in thinking about any subject is the tendency to view things through a complete “black/white lens.” I think LRH nailed it when he went over infinity valued logic. There is a scale in almost everything. Why does Scientology (or if you want to call it LRH’s viewpoints) have to be COMPLETELY correct? OR completely WRONG? Well, if you are a Scientologist, then you accept him as the latest messiah/prophet and everything he says or wrote is bringing the truth. (just like Christians view Jesus or Muslims view Muhammed, or many Buddhists view the Buddha, even though there is no actual reported writings from his time). Because if you don’t, then somehow that invalidates EVERYTHING he has said. And on the other side, the Jon Atacks of the world just believe that EVERYTHING Ron said was either evil or bullshit.
Actually, I’d really like to hear what LRH said about death in those ACC lectures. Other than possibly through ebay (or an ex friend who might have them) not sure how I could get them (hell, I don’t even have a CD player anymore!) But can’t comment on them specifically until I do hear them.
It is more likely than not that LRH was right on about a number of things and was completely off on others. He probably had the death thing right on some factors and missed on others. Hell, maybe Ron and deceased SO members decided on returning to Earth after death THAT THEY DIDN’T WANT TO COME BACK INTO SCIENTOLOGY RIGHT NOW. I joked before that LRH is Justin Bieber, but you know, maybe he did decide there was no rush after all and he’s taking a lifetime or two or three off to have a good time now. Who knows?
Ann B’s story is interesting. There are many stories one reads from Scientologists and others who have left their bodies at one time or another and have told about it. Are they ALL hallucinating? My gut feeling, just a knowingness I ascribe to nothing but that, is that we as beings are not our bodies but that our creative and thinking factor is not physical in nature. Wishful thinking? I don’t THINK so, but I have no physical proof and neither does Chuck Beatty for his point of view (though logically in any debate on this, he would certainly have the upper hand to claim that the burden is on my point of view, not his). Would a returning LRH or even returning Scientologist with perfect recall of their past life go a long way as evidence? Yes it would. Why hasn’t his happened? I don’t know. Is it because everything about past lives is bullshit? I don’t think that’s the reason. And again, I don’t know what is.
Joe — good sense in your first two paras.
But my point about LRH returning is this — he hammered on everyone that the agonized future of every man, woman and child depends on what we do here and now in scientology (among many other things). There was no time for bowling or being a dilettante. And that would I assume include taking lifetimes off to be Justin Bieber or Bozo the Clown. Remember, it is LRH that also said that this planet has a short life span. There is no infinity of time to get the job done etc etc etc.
It’s either hypocrisy or lies.
I do agree with you there Mike. A failed attempt at a bit of humor .
Joe, I agree wholeheartedly. Ron made a lot of progress towards developing a workable path to true spiritual liberation, but also was a real, imperfect person who made mistakes and didn’t finish the job. It’s up to us to carry on, avoid the factors that turned the Church into a cult, correct the tech where Ron missed the mark, and complete the journey we were on before we ever heard of Scientology.
The reason people tend to see Scientology in black-and-white terms, instead of as a combination of plus points and out points, is simply that charge traps them in opp term thinking. That includes the charge we all started with prior to this lifetime, plus the bypassed charge we accumulated in this lifetime from bad auditing and suppressive organizational handlings.
I applaud anyone and everyone who participates in an honest, non-trolling, positive discussion aimed at finishing the good part of what Ron started, however big or small that good part may actually be.
I for one do not think that the majority of persons commenting on this blog were so gullible or stupid that they fell hook, line and sinker, and forked out millions of dollars for a subject that was completely false or had no value. I think that it is more likely that they got positive results for the most part and were then fleeced and fucked over later by some ill intentioned cockaroaches who stole LRHs legacy and used it for their own ends. I have been getting auditing from an indy auditor (Trey) and it is far better than auditing delivered by the Church.
Considering the number of hours LRH put into the subject, it is hardly a get rich quick plan. There are a lot easier ways to make money. So to say he did it only for the money is unlikely. It is up to each of us to determine the value of his work. The only way to do that it to use some part of it and see if it works. If not, drop it. If it works, try some more. This think I did with the billion year contract did not work out, partly because they do not yet have meat bodies that last that long. AT LEAST THEY CAN NO LONGER DENY YOUR “ANNUAL” LOA WHN YOU ARE DEAD.
Okee dokee, as usual here I am with my opinion although no one asked… so first off I’m glad you are still alive Bill! What an amazing tale you have, your strength and resiliency is to be admired, and I send you good wishes for health & life… may the sun shine on you every day and bring you many moments of joy and happiness *virtual hugs* to you. 🙂 Now on to my opinion, worth half of two cents maybe.
As a person who hasn’t done any courses, I gather from what I’ve read over the past few years that some people find value in Scientology courses and studies and practices, especially in the beginning, when the emphasis is on better communication.
I think a person can learn from almost anything though, every experience is a chance to learn, so beginning Scientology studies would be no different. Take what’s offered and learn from it. Even if what you learn is that you don’t end up in agreement with it. You still learned something, right?
It is my impression that overall though, the later practices that one is exposed to, the higher, more advanced courses, “upper levels” or OT levels and so forth seem to not give as much in the way of good results to many people, and even result in negative outcomes to some people, and my opinion is that this is because the practices on this part are unproven, they don’t have a solid basis, and are too variable, they don’t give consistent good results and do not deliver what they promise, and, perhaps, were even created solely to make money for the founder, L. Ron Hubbard. Some evidence points to this theory being true.
From many stories that I’ve read, I believe that practicing Scientology can be, and has been, harmful to many people. I think that the higher levels have too much unsure “tech” too much in the way of “messing with the mind” for want of better terminology, not enough checks and balances and safeguards to ensure people are not harmed. There is not a sound and proven medical basis for the processes.
I also disagree fundamentally with several of their policies such as “disconnection” and the constant demands for more and more money and the pressure to donate to the I.A.S. which does not have public accountability as to where the money goes, and I object to the way members are exploited in the Sea Org. In the actual Navy or other branch of the military, people must meet certain levels of education, training, and standards to rise to a position of responsibility and command, which is not the case in the Sea Org, and there is a standard review process in place and accountability in the real military, which is also lacking in the Sea Org.
Overall, it’s my opinion that it is a good thing when anyone wants to learn better communication skills, and if they feel Scientology can help them, fine, go for it (of course be prepared to pay more for this than a similar community college course or seminar would cost you) but once you’ve gotten those “wins” there probably isn’t really a good reason to continue with it, and there are, in fact, many reasons not to continue (you will be hounded or “regged” for money continually, and once in ‘the system’ your information probably will remain in their central files, and judging from what hundreds have written, you will continue to be contacted often by the organization even after repeatedly requesting not to be) and of course, a huge out-point is that the cosmology is not sound, not scientific, so unless you are prepared to accept Hubbard’s theories of creation and space and so forth, this probably wouldn’t be a good fit for you.
But what convinces me more than anything that Scientology is to be avoided are two things: first the huge body of ex-members who have related their own bad stories telling about abuses and harm that came to them, their families and friends, from their former “faith” or religion, and secondly, the information that has come out about the criminal and unethical behavior imbedded into Scientology from the time of Hubbard and the “Snow White” plot and concerted efforts to harm individuals such as Paulette Cooper and the Church of Scientology’s suppression of free speech of both individuals and the press, up through modern day, with Miscavige paying Private Investigators to harass and stalk former members, hack into emails, harass people through legal filings, use coercion, plant false incriminating items to hurt people and other related activities. So this does not seem like an organization that one could recommend in good conscience or want to be a part of.
So, if you think Scientology has something to offer you, and you want to join, it is your right to do so, and you may actually enjoy your communications courses. But other than that, the scales are tipped too far in the wrong direction for most people, including me.
There also seems to be a preponderance of people who still espouse the ideas of Scientology who do not seem to be thinking with all their critical facilities. It kind of inspires awe to read blog comments by people who are involved in Scientology who think they have found “higher truths” or “states of thought” or being, who seem to feel they are at a higher level of intelligence than most of us, who actually really appear to be entirely mislead, even unhinged, totally illogical and not following rational trains of thought, the 2 plus 2 equals 5 crowd, or even “it equals yellow”. Lol. This makes it very difficult to communicate with them or even to relate to them. It may seem to them that they have found amazing new thought patterns and abilities, but to normal people, they just seem… “off”. This altered thinking does not appear to benefit them in any way either. They are no better than anyone else, not in terms of successes, finances, family relationships, enjoyment of life, personality, etc., they are not more intelligent, or ethical, kinder, more compassionate… there really isn’t anything to recommend them or admire them for having had many years of Scientology, and in fact they can often come across as uninformed, uncompromising, unforgiving and downright unpleasant. It may be fun to explore new avenues, but when you come down to it, if you can’t make logical deductions and conclusions that make sense using evidence and common sense and relate to the world and others in a rational way, your “tech” isn’t really doing anything positive for you.
You present a comprehensive summary of everything others have said is wrong with Scientology. But since you admit to having never studied, practiced, or experienced Scientology yourself, you really have no basis for the opinions you state.
There actually is a lot wrong with Scientology as practiced in the Church today. But there is also a lot right in the original version of the subject, that is being salvaged outside the Church by various independent practitioners who simply don’t do the abusive alterations and add-ons the Church specializes in.
hiya My2cents. I do indeed have a “basis for my opinions” because “opinions” are just someones feelings and ideas about something, and as shown by the above, I have feelings and ideas about this based on what I’ve read and viewed. So any fool can form opinions, including me. :p
As to the rest, you are right that since I have not practiced Scientology, I have no first-hand experience, that’s right. This was, as clearly stated up-front, the summary of someone looking at it without personal experience. I thought it might be interesting to read what an average person’s feelings are about it, and why.
I understand that people may have differing opinions than mine, especially those who still participate in some form of Scientology. As is true with you, apparently. I’m happy to hear your point of view, and very happy that Mike Rinder provides this space for people to exchange ideas and viewpoints.
o·pin·ion
əˈpinyən
noun
a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
synonyms: belief, judgment, thought(s), (way of) thinking, mind, (point of) view, viewpoint, outlook, attitude, stance, position, perspective, persuasion, standpoint, sentiment, conception, conviction.
the beliefs or views of a large number or majority of people about a particular thing.
an estimation of the quality or worth of someone or something.
Opinion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion
In general, an opinion is a judgment, viewpoint, or statement that is not conclusive. It may deal with subjective matters in which there is no conclusive finding.
Got a chance to read your post about your feelings re Scientology.Very well written and thank you.As for me,I have absolutely no quarrel with auditors who offer services outside the cult.In fact save two or three the auditors I had at Asho were shall I say out to lunch!And then pile on sec-checks and ethics crap no wonder the cans scare me still.But I can see where a very very skilled auditor could help me clean up some really bad experiences.My white hot anger at the cult comes from the Disconnection policy that is very much in force,the IAS which did not exist when I was in and their tax exemption which dm exploits every second and the OSA and all their nefarious bs.All this must be stopped.It is Horrible.Love you T.J. Always.❤️❤️?
hi Ann B! 🙂 It’s always nice to hear from you. I like how you speak your mind, and so honestly, yet are still so nice and kind, you’ve got a gentle and loving way about you that is pleasant and uplifting. I’m always encouraged to hear that people did, and sometimes still do, find value in their experiences with Scientology. I’ve always felt that it’s cool that a group of people want (or wanted) to change the world for the better, and improve the lives of others. I admire that. I have nothing against anyone searching for meaning in their lives and in unconventional ways. I’ve never ridiculed anyone for their beliefs or good intentions or judged anyone for their actions that were done in good faith.
But the group as ruled by the “Church”, the institution or organization is another thing entirely, and I cannot recommend Scientology as a whole due to the factors I named above, one of which is the toxic policy of disconnection, as you stated. Another big problem is the criminal, unethical and harmful actions taken against others.
Best wishes to you for a happy day! Love, T.J.
By the way, where are the poems you promised? I’d love to read some of your original creations.
TJ,I am bad to the bone.I’ve got to go find my poetry hat and my first one will be for you.Sometimes I would like to clone myself and tell me to go do all the stuff I keep shoving to the back of my closet!Thank you for your comment,hubby is a never in too so I understand where you are coming from.My admission that I have no quarrel with auditing outside of dm,is a very recent revelation for me.I am glad because I have a much sharper view of the abuses that the cult allows.As you said,Disconnection,Fair Gaming,IAS,and the chase for the never ending stream of cash for dm and his celeb whales.And the exploitation of young ones that cos continues to promote like the Harpi promo pieces from Scotland.Disgusting!❤️❤️U
Mike writes: “Where scientology is most problematic is when Hubbard made pronouncements that seemed unverifiable at the time, but are now shown to be ridiculous. Some of his statements about being on Venus or Mars for example. Or the supposed factual account of the History of Man including the Piltdown Man before it was discovered a fraud.”
Perhaps more damning is this: One of Hubbard’s main sources for “research” appears to be Reader’s Digest and that sort of “gee whiz” publication. He probably also really dug Popular Science, etc. As I recall, Piltdown Man was suspected as a fraud by many in the serious anthropologist community almost immediately, and was publicly criticized. The popular press swallowed the story uncritically.
Hubbard, with his usual sloppiness, threw it into “History of Man” because it was about the only thing he remembered reading about evolution and threw it in there. Had he done any real “research” he would have been aware of 40 years of controversy about the fossil. How embarrassing to have Piltdown Man revealed conclusively as a hoax not decades after he was gone, but almost immediately after publication.
And don’t even get me started on one of Hubbard’s most dangerous bits of nonsense: the whole thing about “drug residues” being stored in “fatty tissues” until released all at once at some future date. I’ve penned a few epic rants about this, which makes my blood boil, over at Tony Ortega’s blog over the years. It was known at the time Hubbard said it that this was nonsense, and it should be obvious why with just a moment’s thought about metabolic processes using the knowledge that was available in Hubbard’s day.
False CLAIMS:
Cure goiter DIANETICS TODAY (1975 ED.) P.280
“I’ve seen a goiter the size of a baseball visibly shrink and
disappear in the space of one-half hour right after an engram
was run.”
Cure polio DIANETICS TODAY ” P. 353
“A girl crippled by polio was able to throw away her crutches
after my first session.”
Cure arthritis History of Man p. 7
“Today, Eleanor has arthritis. She is audited… tonight she
doesn’t have arthritis”
Speed broke bone healing DIANETICS TODAY ” P.110
“A broken limb will heal (by X-ray evidence) in two instead of
six weeks.”
Cure effects of drugs DIANETICS TODAY ” P.481
“ONLY processing by Dianetics and Scientology can handle the
effects of drugs fully.”
Raise the dead Magazine Articles on Level 0
Checksheet 1968, “Dissemination of Material” p.75
“A child had died, was dead, had been pronounced dead by a doctor,
and the auditor, by calling the thetan back and ordering him to take
over the body again brought the child to life.”
Cure migraines DIANETICS ” P.125
also see HCOB 15 Jan. ’79 “Handling with Auditing”
Cure cancer THE HISTORY OF MAN (1961) P. 20
“Cancer has been eradicated by auditing out conception and
mitosis.”
Cure skin cancer ALL ABOUT RADIATION (1979 ED.) P.114
Cure radiation sickness ALL ABOUT RADIATION ” P.109
also PAB no. 82 “Scientology is the only specific (cure) for
radiation (atomic bomb) burns.”
Improve eyesight PAB no. 111 “Eyesight and glasses”
also Dianetic Auditor’s Bulletin vol. 2 no. 7 January 1952 “An
afternoon with Ron” “You are only three or four hours from taking
your glasses off for keeps.”
Cure a broken ankle HCOB 30 July 1973 “Scientology, Current State
of the Subject and Materials.”
Cure insanity HCOB 28 Nov. ’70 “Psychosis” “The alleviation
of the condition of insanity has also been accomplished now…”
Cure bronchitis HCOB 14 Dec. ’63 “Case analysis Health
Research”
“12 days after this auditing the coughing was still in abeyance.”
cure brainwashing HCOB No. 19 Dec. ’55 “The turn of the Tide”
“… in Dianetics in particular, we have the total antidote for the
eradication of brainwashing.”
Miscellaneous claims DIANETICS (1987 ED.) p.72
“arthritis vanishes, myopia gets better, heart illness
decreases,
asthma disappears, stomachs function properly and
the whole catalogue of illnesses goes away and stays away.”
HISTORY OF MAN P.13
“The GE has the record of past deaths. Auditing it alters physical
structure, eradicates physical malformations.”
HISTORY OF MAN P.14
“Paralysis, anxiety stomachs, arthritis and many ills and aberrations
have been relieved by auditing them.”
Dear Karen, Do you mean to say that all of these claims were false? I would expect that you would know what was possible with DN and Scn better than just about anyone. Surely you must have seen evidence of past lives.
Bill,
I’m pretty sure Karen believes that we are spiritual beings and that we reincarnate. She has stated so numerous times – including in a post earlier today!
I also think that there are probably none with more real-world experience to declare the statements she posted above as false.
Certainly the potential to heal oneself exists. But I think the point here is that it should not be used in marketing as a promise that cannot be delivered.
THATS RIGHT SCOOTY!
Totally ludicrous. If auditing could cure cancer, people would be beating down $cientology’s doors.
It is much more likely that Scientology causes cancer. I say this because it is whispered among Scientologists…so many die from cancer and we wonder why. How can that be? To me, it is a simple answer. Stress. The life of a Scientologist can be very stressful. The lies, the demands, the manipulation, the push for stats, the threats, etc. I’m just saying. Does it ever “cure” anything? I don’t know. That’s a different discussion than whether there are past lives.
Good to meet you Patricia.I saw your comment and thought I might add my 2 cents!I have had colon cancer in 99 and two bouts of breast cancer in 14&15 radiation included no thank you Ron I am not drinking the stuff either lol,My cancer docs all agree since no family history my time in Asho is linked to these roving bad genes.Definitely no sleep spoiled food and most of all the months of incredible stress from being security checked by the Guardians Office.I also remember a SOer having a fit because he was petrified he would die of pneumonia while doing OT3.Well that started me thinking why would this be said in as much as the OTs were supposedly the golden processes that would allow me to be and do as if I was superwoman.So a little tiny seed of doubt crept around my mind why are those who were going to do OT3 so upset about it?That doubt was the first line of kindling that eventually became a raging fire and three years later I escaped the SO.❤️❤️
My belief, or more accurately lack thereof, in past lives isn’t worth bringing up, because people here who do believe in them won’t shake their belief because of anything that I say. I just believe death is the commencement of cessation of biological processes in the body, nothing spiritual. I won’t evangelize that here. It’s not the place for it.
That being said, I don’t think they’ll pull the “LRH Is Back” card while Diana is still alive and still in. If they try doing that, with the New LRH having full recall of his last life, and not involve Diana in the testing process (and she’s the one person they WON’T involve), she may break her silence and/or blow. She could destroy the whole plot with a few well-chosen words. And since she possesses the last name of Hubbard and everyone in Scientology knows her, she could destroy the Church of Scientology at the same time. She would have to be in on it from the start and fully support every deception that goes into such a process. She doesn’t seem like the person who’d do that.
With her daughter Roanne out, she’d receive a warm welcome out here. Go for it, Diana.
Good point!
That’s an excellent point, Espi.
I hate to be one of “those guys”, but I will solve all questions regarding this (and all) religious issues right here and now. No need to go on spiritual journeys, look into the depths of your soul or have some sort of magical experience.
Human beings, you see, are biological creatures. We share much of the same DNA with other animals, mammals in particular. What separates us from a dog or cat or a stalk of asparagus is the fact that we have evolved into a superior state of intelligence.
That’s it.
We are born. We live a while. Then we die. That’s it. Everything else is just window dressing. Psychics are not real, Jesus did not die and return from the tomb because, well, that’s impossible. Talking to spirits is folly. Nobody is clairvoyant, no one has any special powers that you don’t have.
LRH was a worthless fraud.
That’s it.
I don’t happen to agree that all things are material and there is no spiritual existence. But that is your right. But the view that all things are material is no proof LRH was a worthless fraud. I found the documentary “I Am” a fascinating look at the world beyond materialism. Check it out. Nothing wrong with looking at new things and expanding your knowledge base.
Mike, I am not sure why but your reply reminded me of this saying that gets around in the rooms of AA/NA/CA (any 12 step program probably); I think you will appreciate it.
Religion is for people afraid of hell. Spirituality is for those who have already been there.
Hi really like your comment.Thank you ❤️
Roger, here is how it works. That which IS testable falls under science. That which is NOT testable (e.g. “spirits” that are purported to NOT be part of the physical universe) do not fall under science and the ONLY scientific position vis-a-vis their existence is: UNKNOWN. NOT, Yes or No.
Answering yes or no means you are NOT taking a scientific position. 😉
Mystical experience cannot ever be directly testable because it happens entirely within the subjective realm whereas we can only test those things that we all share (the objective) due to our inherent separateness and inability to experience the subjective experience of others. Whereas one can test the objective, the subjective one can only try to emulate or experience oneself. That is necessarily unscientific, but that is a limitation of science and empiricism, which can never say that mystical subjective experience does not exist.
That’s what I stated Gene.
In 1968, when I was a mere Power Release, I could go off by myself, crank up my postulate power, and roll 7 with dice 10 times in a row. But I could never do it as a demonstration with other people present.
I had other similar “OT tricks” experiences that convinced me of two things: (1) OT is real. (2) Getting to it stably is very, very hard. I’m sure many other people both inside and outside Scientology have had similar experiences.
Ron was really on to something, but not as much as he claimed, at least in terms of the practical workability of the tech. To me, absolute attitudes about him, either that he was Our Perfect Guru or that he was a predatory fraud, are equally ridiculous.
If by “OT is real” you mean that some kind of mind over matter is real, I would agree. I am by no means denying the spiritual element. Before Scientology, before Clear I could crank up my “mind over matter” powers (I refuse to call them postulates) and predict what kind of car would stop and pick me up when I was hitchhiking. I was right 7 out of 10 times. It was thrilling. It had nothing to do with Scientology or Hubbard’s so called OT powers. Yogi’s develop those kinds of powers. And others do as well. In my opinion, Dianetics was a science fiction fantasy, which turned out to be believed by lots of people–perhaps to Hubbard’s surprise. I think Hubbard spent most of his life trying to prove he was right by continuing his “research” which was a continuous effort to come up with reasons why something wasn’t working. Try this, or maybe he’s PTS or a Suppressive, or a Rock Slammer, maybe he went by a misunderstood word or has overts. Maybe, Mr. Hubbard, there is no such thing as an engram or a reactive mind or an SP. Maybe you’re just trying to make yourself right. Hubbard occasionally said something true and sometimes said something helpful. And auditing does produce relief in some people for some things. But that does not wash away Hubbard’s sins of aggression, suppression, and oppression against so many. And Clear? And OT? Give me a break.
Which is more important – (1) judging Ron for his sins in the past, or (2) finding a workable way forward into the future? Maybe we have to do a certain amount of (1) to free enough attention to do (2), but then let’s do (2).
A “workable way forward” has been around for a long time. Ditch scamology, its criminally insane founder, its B.S. “tek” and go live your life.
Dear my 2 cents:
I agree with you completely. I am a blackjack player. After I survived my near death experience I used to watch others play Blackjack in casinos and was amazed to find that I often knew what the next card was out of the deck. I then used this while playing myself. Several times I got cocky and would call the next card out loud just before the dealer dealt it. The dealer would call the pit boss over to check it out but no card counter can know the exact next card unless he has counted all the cards in the shoe, which is not possible. I noticed several things while I was doing it: At the time I was doing.it I didn’t care if I won or lost. It was a very light thing. As soon as it got the slightest bit serious, it was over.
OVERWHELMING empirical evidence (reality) is that he was a a sociopath that preyed on good people’s hopes and dreams. Once you snap out of the fog scamology put your mind in you won’t find reality so ridiculous.
Mike, my mind is very much not in a fog, but thanks for your concern, and also for the invalidation of my case and gains. You’re a peach.
When Ron was alive and running the show, I benefited from all the actual grade chart auditing I received. My friends benefited from the auditing they received. I delivered benefit to others as an auditor myself.
We weren’t hypnotized, but we didn’t become gods either. We just got real gains, some of which faded but a lot of which was permanent. That fact utterly trumps anything and everything else.
Ron was far from perfect. So what? He is not the issue. The philosophy and tech are the issue. It wasn’t perfect either, but done correctly it was very helpful.
If you see nothing good in Scientology, that’s your right. But meanwhile what are you doing to get better and help others using some other method?
HERE HERE
“OT” is a belief. It is the belief that thought can exert causation over physical matter. That means a desire can generate a force that makes objects move in accordance with the desire.
After many experiments on that subject there still remains no clinical evidence such a force as “thought force” exists. Conventional wisdom believes thought has no influence on anything outside the body-mind that generates and experiences the thought. Conventional wisdom maintains, until evidence suggests to the contrary, the laws of physics have never been breeched.
Ron was “on to something”? I genuinely believe Mr. Hubbard wanted to believe he was on to something. We all have our beliefs.
Roger, I don’t just BELIEVE that I threw 7 with dice 10 times in a row. I OBSERVED it. It was a fact in the physical universe, not just a thought in my mind. It WAS evidence, even though it conflicted with what seem to be YOUR beliefs.
It was also an observed fact that I couldn’t do it with other people watching. That’s the interesting string to pull. What difference did THEIR beliefs make? A true scientist would explore that question rather than throwing out observations that didn’t fit his preconceived “conventional wisdom.”
Despite the beliefs of respected medieval scholars, the Sun does NOT orbit the earth. And Isaac Newton did NOT use scientific method to discover gravity. He simply sat in the path of a falling anecdotal apple.
I got into Scientology through a squirrel group that later disbanded. In one seminar the group leader put out his cigarette in the palm of his hand without getting burned. It may have been that anyone can do that, and that no mind over matter was involved at all. The interesting thing was that even though he said what he was doing as he did it, 8 out of the 12 students who were looking straight at him later said that they didn’t see him do it.
A result of seven on two six sided dice is statistically, the MOST likely result. (each time you roll, a 7 is the most likely result that will happen) 😉
Good to meet you here.I had a similar experience to yours in Sea Org @ Asho.During a briefing I saw a set of car keys that had been dropped on the see your face in it 47x waxed floor.To this day the entire room maybe less than 20 people there because it was a briefing for Fdn and we were smaller by far than day Org.we all saw the keys lift straight up off the floor and fly into the owners hand.I still have no explanation for it,but it was a great hook back then to get to the OTs.lol?❤️
Throwing 7 with dice 10 times in a row is improbable but not impossible. In order to influence those dice with your thoughts however, the thoughts would need to have “push” force against physical matter. Or it would require an obliging, divinely empowered deity to act as an intermediary between your thoughts and the matter to be telekinetically manipulated.
I think the latter is a better belief to adopt because the “thought-force” idea begs questions about mechanisms of action that will be challenging to invent should you be queried by a rational person. Whereas everybody knows a deity can do anything It wishes for reason known only to Him/Her/It.
Mike, you’re right. Seven is the most likely number to roll with two dice. But it still comes up only once in every 6 rolls. The odds of rolling it 10 times in a row is more than 60 million to one. (60,466,176 to one to be exact.)
“It was also an observed fact that I couldn’t do it with other people watching. ”
Um, now LOOK at that sentence. Write me when you have figured out the flaw…
This. When I finally accepted that my magical thinking was just nonsense about a decade ago, it was the most liberating, freeing and bracing experience of my life so far. A life that had been spent fearfully searching for some kind of magical rules and answers. I really gave magical thinking a good go, but reality was always gnawing away in the back of my mind. Critical thinking turned out to be more existentially comforting (though a tad offensive to my ego) than any of the philosophies in which I so desperately sought solace. The only part I regret is that if it turns out that I’m right, I won’t know it. Divine comedy indeed.
My, aren’t you the life of the human party.
I guess the position of sky pilot is not one that would interest you. But I would assign you burial party though, give the spiritually affected guys a break.
I want to commend Mike for being such an honest and clear communicator. He is very open about where he is in his journey and doesn’t attack readers who disagree. I wish that were true for all bloggers who write about Scientology (both pro and con).
As a never-in, I appreciate the clarity of his writing. I have attended graduate school at Columbia University and University of Notre Dame (yes-I am an overeducated egghead with fewer “street smarts”.)
If my education has taught me anything, it is that when debating another person, stick to your point. Once you start using personal insults in a debate-you have lost. Mike is very respectful to his commenters even when disagreeing. Of course he uses snark and humor when writing about Scientology, but never personally abuses, insults or name-call his readers.
I would encourage anyone to compare the efficacy of Mike’s approach against someone who attacks and demeans commenters and obfuscates any rational thought with $10.00 words. Just my opinion!
“Many” people die and “return” to talk about it. These are all anecdotes. Neither religion nor any “spirituality” (hand waiving) has opened this up.
Alternatively, the practice of science gains ground in understanding daily with repeatable demonstrable proof.
Science continually explains with reality the questions man wonders at. Religion has yet to falsify a single scientific fact.
It’s “a billion years” Mike! Plenty of time.
Great post Chris!❤️
I just figured out what was wrong with today’s post title.
It SHOULD read: Scientology, The Mechanism of Death
Mike accidentally put an “and” where the comma should have been. 🙂
🙂
+1! Yeah, baby!
“We Come Back.” is also the motto of every clam Reg in existence. Same for those who ‘shanghai’ new bodies into the Sea bOrg and every Staff member who has to fill seats for latest edit of some mOrg opening up.
I loved your comment.So true.❤️
Dear zemoo,
Me thinks LRH’s case was in bad shape at the end of his life, thus his despair and negative failure admissions to Sarge at the Creston Ranch, told in Lawrence Wright’s book’s final pages.
But, it could also me that the Marcabians were listening in, and when Ron told Sarge that Ron was going to go circle Arcturus and do the “OT running program” out there, me thinks they intercepted Ron and have him on ice, so to speak, for a while, so Ron doesn’t revive himself up with any OT running program stuff, and that way keep all the spiritual masters who frequent earth from getting up to “Full OT” for real.
That’s my acquired Scientology sci fi conspiracy speculation extrapolation on why Ron’s not returned.
He does have a billion years contract to us, so maybe he’ll figure it out, and get his soul mojo processing elsewhere, and then come back.
I’ll bet actual Scientologists are thinking all sorts of variations of the above.
LRH did return and gave DM the code words that proved who he was. DM had a few goons jump him, and locked him up. He’s in the cell next to Shelly. WAAUUNH!
“We Drag You Back” also works.
How do you say that in Latin?
Good to meet you Joe.Your comment is classic,thank you.If I might add by the scruff of your neck too.Another fun way to be dragged back.❤️❤️
[Ed note: Changed your name to initials, no need for name calling under any guise]
You’ve cut right to the heart of the matter here, Mike, and done an excellent job in succinctly conveying exactly what the implication of making the kind of grand claims that Elron made!
“If, as he proclaimed, L. Ron Hubbard had indeed transcended body death, why didn’t he return to finish his work of planetary clearing? ”
When I first exited the cult, Elron was still alive and reported to be hard at work completing the bridge’s final span to total freedom. I recall thinking to myself then, “If LRH actually does have all the answers here, then the manner of his death and his return, with continuity of consciousness and memory across lifetimes will be the acid test there, so I’ll stay tuned for that most important of validations, if and when it occurs.”
Despite seeing first-hand that the organizational structure and many of the folks that I knew well were not exactly sterling examples of what $cn promised, I was convinced that I no longer wanted to be part of what I knew of $cn, but continued to hold onto some small hope that my experience was just an anomaly and that somewhere, somehow, people actually were transcending the MEST universe and recovering their true immortal selfs.
Now, over three and a half decades later, I have absolutely no doubt that Elron’s Tech didn’t even work for him and that, if reincarnation exists at all, it certainly doesn’t work as Elron described. Even worse, no one ever has or ever will acquire the type of awesome telepathic/telekinetic super powers that he claimed could be uniformly achieved by all through the standard practice of $cn’s methods.
To lose one’s “eternity,” even if it was based on a set of false data and incorrect conclusions, is still a grief-inducing loss that everyone who was once a true believer needs to go through in order to come out the other side. The unwillingness to objectively evaluate the empirically-testable claims that Elron made represents a very deep form of denial, based on the fear of having to confront your own mortality – a task that most of us have also put off, to one degree or another, but one that no one can avoid confronting forever.
Hi ForLease, An excellent point.Thank you.❤️
Ever since a philosopher of science called Karl Popper, science had not spoken of verifying ideas, because it can´t be done. We don’t have infinite time to prove things by trying them out in every possible circumstance. Instead, working scientists do their best to falsify ideas – to take their most cherished theories, and come up with ways to break them. The longer they survive this kind of scrutiny, the more confidence we can have in them – but they will always be tentative. There will always be the possibility that there is a deeper reality behind the one that we currently understand.
A consequence of this idea is the concept of unfalsifiability. There are some ideas that cant be examined at all. For example, the notion that Scientology always works – and when it appears not to, this is because it was not properly applied. There is no way that Scientology can ever be shown to be wrong. Itś a matter of faith.
In the beginning Dianetics presented itself as a science which could produce results as reliably as an engineer. That failed utterly. Part of the reason for transforming Dianetics (the ścience´) into Scientology (the ŕeligion´) was to extend the protection of unfalsifiability when all of Hubbardś promises turned out to be false. Nobody has ever improved their eyesight by practicing dianetics, let alone cured serious diseases, as promised. However many Scientologists have achieved ´greater certainty’ – something that only makes sense if you are a Scientologist.
Scientology requires faith. It is not Scientific, neither has it ever passed the most basic scientific scrutiny. Since L Ron Hubbard is Śource´ the question Scientologists should ask (after examining Hubbardś biography) ¨does this man deserve my absolute faith¨?
Scicrit, your Disqus name “Once_Born” becomes particularly poignant given today’s discussion.
What do you think of the idea that Hubbard was influenced by the Bridey Murphy episode? I know the book about her did not come out until 1956 but apparently there were news items about her before that. The actual hypnosis sessions were in 1952, right around the time that Hubbard was fighting with his “Research Foundations” about past lives. I have a picture of my grandmother’s front room from around 1954 and there is a newspaper on the table. You can see a “Bridey Murphy” headline.
Maybe Hubbard was not aware of the Bridey Murphy phenomenon until later when he tried to capitalize on it by coming out with “Have You Lived Before This Life?”. Or maybe he was influenced by the same generally available information that inspired the hypnotist who preyed on Virginia Tighe to create the “Bridey Murphy” mythos.
Something I have wondered about for a long time. Maybe Hubbard came up with past life regression independently but it seems like a really suspicious coincidence that so many were working on it at the same time. None of the Bridey Murphy crowd credit Hubbard with any mention.
He did mention Bridey Murphy so I am sure that it was an influence.
I was fortunate that I received real scientific training very young, it’s one of many big differences that I noted between Hubbard and myself.
I initially discounted the “start a religion for money” stories about Hubbard because he did not initially start a religion, he started a “science”. He even initially presented Scn as a “science” too, the “science of certainty” snicker. KSW1 is a certainty implant where he gets his followers to become very very certain in spite of no observation then enforce the blind certainty with yelling and threats to eternity.
My initial impression was that Hubbard wanted to be a scientist but got shot down by real scientists so without admitting he was in any way wrong or trying to improve his knowledge he retreated to the field of mysticism. I enjoy mysticism and thought Hubbard was a pretty good mystic for a while until I started seeing that he was actually knowingly tricking his followers to enslave them. Oops.
Gene you and me both.We saw beneath the masks.❤️?
I think Hubbard was shrewd, if not clever. He was adept at adapting and exploiting ideas that had caught the popular imagination for some reason or another – for example, the ridiculous “All About Radiation” came about at a time when there was a justifiable popular fear of the consequences of nuclear war.
He exploited the entire cultic milieu of the time, and many of his ideas only seem novel now because they were sourced from individuals and organisations that are now forgotten.
It would probably be easier to decide what popular fringe ideas current at the time were not incorporated into Scientology, than to identify those which were.
Excellent scicrit.
Yes, this is real science. I could see at once that Hubbard didn’t understand science. He initially called Scientology “the science of certainty” which made me snicker because real science is about UNCERTAINTY and the willingness to always re-examine basic premises. When I thought Hubbard was a good guy I thought that I would pick him up in that area. I actually thought that I would end up being some sort of science liaison for CofS.
I sure was naive in that regard, Hubbard was avoiding scientific inquiry and peer review for everything he was worth! I thought that in Scn that we supposedly didn’t have to believe, which is what appealed to me. I was never much of a believer so standard religions like Christianity were out as far as I was concerned, but a religion where I don’t have to believe?! That sounded great.
I was saddened to find that was a PR lie and CofS is actually about imposing blind belief via threat to family and eternity and maintaining a thought bubble via mind control
Very nice post, Gene!
“There are some ideas that cant be examined at all. For example, the notion that Scientology always works – and when it appears not to, this is because it was not properly applied. There is no way that Scientology can ever be shown to be wrong. Itś a matter of faith.”
The specific abilities that are supposed to be reliably achieved at various points on the upper bridge are truth claims that ARE in the realm of empirical research evaluation. So while the internally held tenants of faith in $cn are indeed beyond the scope of science to investigate, just as they are in all faiths, the actual claims of efficacy that are made by the cherch CAN be demonstrated to be false.
And since $cn is a religion that bases its own ascription of value on its efficacy in enabling its practitioners to achieve advance stages of spiritual development in this lifetime, invalidation of those claims is much more damning to the religion than faiths in which your reward (or punishment) is pushed off into the some imagined afterlife.
So, if the promised abilities are uniformly never achieved, then I guess it would be possible to continue to right that off to claim that the problem there was that they were never applied properly. Except, that is, if even Elron was never able to achieve the promised result, then there’s really not much left to believe in.
A good, solid set of points you make Mike. There can be no refuting the evidence or more correctly stated, the lack of evidence comparing results with the texts of prediction made by Hubbard. There’s a mystical space opera gibberish liberally sprinkled throughout the “tech” and his lectures. With the current state of affairs of the Cof$ it can easily be concluded it’s pretty much not going to happen, well… not in our lifetimes anyway so it always seems now (the tempting bait and switch think of justification, it’s like a disease!).
“I am the way, the truth and the light ,” JC said some 2k years ago as well. Still waiting for verification on that line too. The Holy Trinity is believed by millions, can it be proven to exist? the Pope (God’s messenger on Earth, they call him (always a him) the Holy Father) calling for an end to wars and poverty, seems to fall on death ears pretty regularly. But they mastered the power of having “postulates believed” centuries before Hubbard came along.
It could also be suggested that we walk a pretty strangle line in that we bought this sort of stuff in the first place, the evidence on it being bs already existed if one really looks and is intelligent about it, but we went ahead and bought a meaningful alternative to life as it is, emeter an all. Hope and trusting in belief in an after life has many faces and speaks many tongues, from the American Indian’s belief in the spirit world to the Tibetan monk sitting on a mountain, what goes on in the minds of men is literally what goes on in the minds of men. Trying to categorize hence control it is big business and evil finds a home with that sort of control rather easily.
But please, let’s not forget just what a luxury it is to be able to question this openly. History is littered with evidence of conformity enforced and I believe we are rushing towards a similar (Orwell’s 1984’ish) fate with the aide of computerization. That technology is too pervasive on the minds of the young to be ignored. Policing with it has already begun. The micro chipping of pets is advancing in technology, who’s to say it’s not being set up for human use? Vaccines are more or less mandatory now. Our trust relies a lot on ignorance & lies believed, plus the feeling we just don’t want to know – too busy to see past our struggles with money.
The criminal activities of Scientology cannot be ignored but they have been, just like the Jesuits and Catholics who plundered the new world or the brutal colonization practiced by monarchies and Govts. I’ve said many times, guns don’t kill people, people kill people.
Hubbard did give some interesting ways to look at things imo but so do many people. Sorting it out does expose lots of lies, misinterpretations and a whole heap of greedy, stupid assholes ready to steal your money and issue you guns in the name of survival.
I wonder who the next guru is going to be so we can pull them to bits when that fails too. It seems a pretty obvious thing to ask, “perhaps this is a good as it gets?”
Undoubtedly, the reason El Con does not return from his extra-terrestrial ventures with perfect recall of his past life as a cult leader is that he told so many lies about that life when he was actually living it. He would have to recall his lies and wild tales, not the actual life itself!
Sunny at the Bunker comments:
“Sea Org members who pass away all have a note in their personnel files, indicating the date of death and noting that they have a 21 year leave, at which time they are to return to the Sea Org to continue their billion year contract.”
So LRH is on post in the Sea Org somewhere? 1986 to 2016 would be thirty years departed.
No, wait. My bad. That would only make him five years old in this life.
Brilliant observations, Mike.
Wow Mike I really like this piece.Honestly probably all of this life and I do not have perfect recall of other lives lol,I have wondered about all those questions life death heaven hell religion self will etc.Yes part of me believed so strongly that Ron was giving me the Key to a very special Tech whereby I would transcend death and come back to serve the Sea Org.Back then that was my purpose to serve.I really thought Scientology was what I had been looking for all my life.Two little tales to illustrate.Early on my first two months in SO I wrote the SO#1 line sometimes four times a week.All my letters and all my personal journals of my SO time were taken from my room in 77-78 by a white glove team.Pissed me off!Anyway in 74 one of the ladies wrote me this long letter saying I would know all the answers to my questions about finding Ron and The Sea Org after death when I did the OTs.Not to worry the map was all worked out.Ron-aided that I was I swallowed that one gladly.Of course later on I started to realize something was rotten on the Bridge.things just were not fitting together between what was said and what was done.Yet I so so believed I would be re-united with the SO.So second part,years and years out I have colon cancer surgery in 99.I was in hospital nine days with a huge IV in my back pumping fentynal into me so no pain but very strong stuff.After some days of fun and games I woke suddenly at 3:00 am and my room door was slightly open and I was near the nurses station so I heard them talking etc.All of a sudden I am completely out and totally away from my body looking down from a corner of the ceiling.I thought Ann you look Pathetic with all these wires and tubes and you are white as a ghost.And at that second I realized how the hell do I get back into my body? And deep panic ensued.I could not get back in.It was terrible.Then suddenly a light not a voice a light vibrated Stay or come? I thought Please not yet I want to stay.Right then with great force I was slammed into my body so hard I could not breathe.I hit the call button I’m crying all the nurses come running in and finally decide to get the anesthesiologist on call.So in he comes shoos everyone out and asked me what happened.I told him and after I got some Demeral to calm down,he told me he thought I had experienced what he called A Rising or a near death experience.NDE.I was surprised because I thought they would just laugh but no what happened was taken seriously.Mu point being if this happened to me as an ex SO member then all of Ron’s claims of knowing the exact route after death backto him is BS.Otherwise Iwould have seen him if he was a guide.Therefore to me now the Upper Bridge is just that A Mirage that never existed.Whatever reasons Ron had for the OTs etc,I feel had more to with making tons of money and SO slaves than anything else.Just one opinion in the sea,but when Iread the bit where I read the sheeple will know what happens at the point of body death and what to avoid at that point,well LOL & damn you Ron.Sorry it just makes steam come out of my ears! ❤️❤️
I loved your comment Ann. Thanks for sharing it
❤️❤️
That’s a great comment, Ann. One of the hard things for me when I left Scientology was the dismissive attitude of many people toward spiritual or paranormal experiences. And then when I found people who were accepting of such experience, they usually turned out to be loons. One of the weird but cool things about Scientology is its completely matter-of-fact acceptance of out-of-body experiences. When I was a small child in the 70s and even into the 80s, Scientologists freely discussed such things and it was just a normal part of my life, so much so that I was really surprised to find out wogs either considered all such experience a crock of shit or they believed only Jesus or the saints worthy of such godlike grace.
LRH talked a good game, but that’s all it was: him talking while we played his game.
Oh yes your last line is powerful,thank you.I have found exactly the same as you when talking about reincarnation or things I constantly saw as a child.I thought everyone did.So your comment sparked a memory of when I was very new to bloggings I posted that I had read about auras yrs before SO,but never saw any.My first week or two in SO I was one of the lowest on the Ronpole so got to do cleaning stations in all the course rooms,which I am sure you know were not empty boxes like the orgs now,but they were a total mess from all those thetans on SHSBC etc.I mean one would have thought a clay fight had ensued.So I am cleaning away and I become aware our beloved CO @ Asho F was quietly standing at the back of the course room watching me scrub the tables.I looked and I swear there was a golden energy all around him that was a little out from the body but projecting out further.Dancing gold,it was incredible.I said nothing about this and neither did he,but it only happened that one time.So I posted this and you would think that I had said I was rejoining the SO.I got hammered because cosers don’t not see auras was the prevailing thought and as you wrote the ones that believed me were looney not serious about an interesting phenomenon.Wogs can have fixed minds too,I have found that out since blowing so long ago.❤️❤️
Huh? Wotchyu talkin’ ’bout, Willis?
In HCOB May 11 AD13, L Ron Hubbard explains, inter alia, that ” . . . The Goals Problem Mass implants, which are the apparent basic source of aberration and human travail, which begin with the goal To Forget, were cynically done “in Heaven” . . . Yes, I’ve been to Heaven. And so have you. And you have the pattern of its implants in the HCO Bulletin Line Plots. It was complete with gates, angels and plaster saints – and electronic implantation equipment. So there was a Heaven after all – which is why you are on this planet and were condemned never to be free again – until Scientology.”
^^^ That’s Tech, not Policy. Its written, so it must be true.
My theory is Hubbard came back, made a big stink with Dave about how he screwed everything up, and got offed again for his trouble. Maybe in another 20 years…
Just kidding but I know Hubbard gave the Sea Org the motto “Revenimus” or “We Come Back”. But he never practiced that himself. Did he ever go back to Elizabeth New Jersey, or Phoenix Arizona, or Washington DC? Mostly he escaped his creditors and never returned to any of his previous haunts. He only came back to Saint Hill after Rhodesia long enough to form the Sea Project and head for the Mediterranean.
With Hubbard it is always “Do as I say, don’t do as I do”.
The Sea Org can’t watch television but he always had elaborate satellite TV setups. They are on rice and beans, he is on shrimp flown in fresh by courier. They struggle to keep enough toilet paper in stock, he has a crew of hundreds just to take care of his personal household and belongings. He sleeps in a house, they are crammed into dorms with bunks three high (the Bluebird trailer was just temporary housing while his house was being worked on. But check out what a Bluebird is, he had the best with fancy sound system etc.) They can’t go to a doctor until the expense is provided by their local organization, if it ever gets approved, he has a personal doctor. You could go on and on. The rules are only for the ruled, not the ruler.
Agree, Bruce. Reminds me of Mike’s past statement (I think it was Mike) that DM’s big secret is that he’s not a Scnist. Certainly not a Scnist in the vernacular. Yelling, screaming, verbal threats, physical abuse are 180 degrees opposite the core Scn beliefs. The same could be said of LRH.
Maybe when one ascends to the throne, they move beyond the tenets of the “religion”.
Beautifully said Bruce.Your comment is one reason steam comes out of my ears regarding that Ron.Do not be me because you cannot,but you sure as hell better do as I say! Still so grateful I escaped.❤️❤️
I could see a scenario where Miscavige and Hubbard off each other in alternating lifetimes. One shows up, the other one offs him and then vice versa. It could go on for a while!
Isn’t that just like the Dwarfenfuhrer? To kill off a poor five year old kid just because it was LRH making a comeback.
” Wouldn’t it be easier for a high ranking Scientologist to proclaim their young progeny is the new manifestation of Hubbard and force feed the child the bio details as proof?”
But Dave knows it is all daveshit and the sec checks would begin and all would be revealed to be a sham.Nothing new to see here……………… move along!
Newcomer,
You ask why the Co$ doesn’t find a young progeny and invent a new manifestation of LRH?.
Because eventually, say around age 11, that child will outgrow Miscavige and will want to know why DM keeps insisting that he and TC are bigger beings
After all, shouldn’t LRH, part deux, be the biggest big being?
Dave is not going to share his sandbox or his toys.
+1! Training some kid to be Hubbard just wouldn’t work. And, you’re right Chee. The dwarf wouldn’t have it…
Chee that was funny.
Maybe Shelly’s disappearance is that she’s been ordered to look after Hubbard who did in fact return, got immediately RPF’d and now sits in a padded room somewhere in the hills.
My personal theory is Hubbard simply forgot, you know, a cosmic senior moment.
Sounds true to me….but, I’ll believe most anything.
Scientology can fix that! Wana give it another go, just for old time’s sake? What’s a billion years anyway?
I’m on my way!!!
I should say that I have not done any OT levels, but I have seen (or more accurately experienced) some pretty convincing evidence of past lives.
In 1989 I was SO on the Freewinds and I had a bleeding ulcer and almost bled to death and later recovered somewhat and returned to duty (and got AIDS from the blood transfusions). In the following several years the stomach trouble returned and I was belching up acid strong enough to damage the wood table in my room. IT WAS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE I HAD ANOTHER MAJOR BLEEDING EPISODE THAT WOULD EITHER KILL ME OR CERTAINLY GET ME OFFLOADED.
The ships doctor took me to a stomach specialist in Nassau Bahamas who examined me and stated that I was a prime candidate for stomach cancer. At this point suddenly I received a PTS R/D. AFTER THE LAST INCIDENT RUN THE TROUBLE SHUT OFF LIKE TURNING OFF A LIGHT SWITCH. IN THE 26 YEARS SINCE I HAVE NOT HAD ANY HINT OF STOMACH TROUBLE. THAT LAST INCIDNT RUN IS AS FOLLOWS: I was sent to Austria in 1938 as part of the German occupying force. (Heil Hitler). While pilvering some weapons from the supplies there I was shot in the stomach by a guard. THIS GUARD WAS THE SAME BEING WHO WAS STARTING A 2D WITH MY DORM MATE ON THE FREEWINDS AT THE TIME GOT THE ULCER. Now, nobody has to believe me, but there are medical records and the meds the doctor gave me did not work. I WOULD CERTAINLY BE DEAD BY NOW IF THIS INCIDENT HAD NOT BEEN RUN.
There is an even more convincing (to me) incident. There was a person at FSO in 1980 shortly after I joined the SO. There was a person of staff who generated a very strong phonemonen when I saw or even came near her without yet seeing her. It was a combination of deja vu and immense force. One night I saw her in the Hourglass and I was knocked out of by body and caught it just before it hit the deck. I WAS ALWAYS TRYING TO FIND OUT WHAT THIS WAS ALL ABOUT. I REALIZED THAT I HAD KNOWN HER BEFORE THIS LIFE. THIS ALSO CAME UP IN SESSIONS MANY TIMES. You will say, Anyone can say that. YES THEY CAN, BUT SOME YEARS LATER SHE ORIGINATED TO ME THAT SHE REMEMBERED ME FROM THAT LIFE AT THE SAME TIME AND PLACE.
WHAT ARE THE ODDS OF THAT?
DEAD MEN TELL NO TALES
DMTMT,
Have you sent this in to the Advance Mag for their next issue?
No, I freaked them out too much already when I ran into my last auditor Joan Heller in the elevator at AOLA. IN OUR LAST SESSION SHE DID A CORRECTION LIST AND UP CAME THE FACT THAT I WAS DYING. THE LAST DATA SHE PROBABLY HAD ABOUT ME WAS WHEN THE SHIP ADVISED MY WIFE TO PUT ME IN A HOSPICE TO DIE. HAD MY WIFE FOLLOWED THEIR ADVICE I WOULD CERTAINLY BE DEAD AS ONE WOULD NOT GET TREATED FOR AIDS IN A HOSPICE; ONE IS JUST DRUGGED UP UNTIL HE IS DEAD.
ANYWAY, JOAN JUMPED WHEN SHE SAW ME AND I SAID ” I GUESS THAT YOU DID NOT EXPECT TO SEE ME AGAIN. AND SHE REPLIED ” NO, I REALLY DIDN’T “.
ACTUALLY, THIS POST IS PROOF OF LIFE AFTER DEATH. THE CAPTAIN FREEWINDS TOLD MY WIFE THAT I WAS GOING TO DIE.
AS HE LOUDLY TOLD ME, HE IS THE ONLY RIGHT ARM CAPTAIN IN THE SEA ORG. THEY DID NOT TELL ME I HAD BEEN DECLARED SP OR SEND ME A COPY OF THE ISSUE BECAUSE THEY DO NOT BOTHER TO DECLARE DEAD PEOPLE.THEY JUST CAN’T SEEM TO ACCEPT THE IDEA THAT I AM STILL ALIVE.
JUST AS THE CHURCH IS ALL-KNOWING AND ITS PRONOUNCEMENTS ARE FINAL.
ONE IS AN SP BECAUSE ONE HAD BEEN DECLARED ONE; NOT FOR ANY MISDEEDS ONE IS DONE. THEREFORE, I MUST HAVE DIED WHEN THE ORG PRONOUNCED MY DEATH. NOW, SINCE DEAD MEN TELL NO TALES YET I AM WRITING THIS COMMENT, I MUST HAVE COME BACK TO LIFE ( actually I did, I really did). THEREFORE, THIS IS PROOF OF LIFE AFTER DEATH AND I WANT THE RE
REWARD FOR PROVING IT.
I had always considered while on staff that it would be far better to be dead than to be declared SP.
And just as the org does not allow you to talk to SPs (disconnection) one is really not supposed to talk to dead people. I have not gotten in trouble for that, but I was called before the 18 year old AOLA MAA by the name of Thresa Smith , excuse me MR SMITH. for talking to my stuffed moose that I had brought for the GAT drills. Now one is supposed to talk to the doll, but I admit that I had been talking to it out of session. After I had been seen by security kissing the moose on the snout several times, I was busted by Ethics.
LATER MR SMITH HAD ME ON THE CANS AND ASKED ME “ARE YOU STILL DOIN IT WITH THE MOOSE? Along with this was a strong 2d flow. IT WAS CLEAR THAT SHE WAS DEMANDING TO KNOW IF I WAS “STILL” FUCKING THE MOOSE. I burst out laughing it was so rediculous. She did not like being laughed at over so serious a matter. I had to “disconnect” from the moose to continue my auditing.
Bill Strauss, you have got to be kidding! I mean this is a joke, right? Have we all been punked or did that really happen re the moose? I mean too incredible to be believed even of the far out church.
Dear Cindy,
YES, IT REALLY HAPPENED. I have a lot of affinity for this particular moose. My wife bought the moose shortly before I was found to be HIV positive and I was sent of the ship. She was told by the Captain that I was going to die and that she should end cycle on me. She was not allowed to leave to see me and she told me she used to cry herself to sleep every night. THE MOOSE WAS THE ONLY FRIEND SHE HAD LEFT. Had she not kept it together I would be dead as she finally got me proper medical care after the ship had sent me to a non-medical chiro. That is no joke either.
Hi Bill,I saw your post to Cindy where you got sent to a non med chiro.So did I in SO and it was a horrible experience.The dude I mean “doc” had a tiny apartment off Olivera St I think.This was 74 in Hollyweird.The whole place was all Ron.Not big suckers of him like we had at Asho but all the stock shots of him on the bridge with sunglasses on.So this idiot was practically licking the floor on front of me because I was in SO.Creepy.Anyway he grabs me throws me on a day bed and proceeds to twist my head and neck so violently I thought he had broken something.Did I do my best to check my watch and say Gotta Go have to be on post,yew I hightailed it out of-thereHad to do a month will him but Miss Ann lied.I never went back during the time I was supposed to be there I walked all the way up and down H Blvd got coffee etc.No-one to my knowledge ever checked my scheme out!I empathize with your story..
Scientology has a nice reward for you I am sure.Thank you Bill for your comment on all this.Right now I do believe in my body mind and spirit and I know I am more than just the moving parts.But I do not look at this as Ron/dm said it was.I think each of us has the experiences in this area that we need to keep moving forward.I know that really doesn’t make sense but as an x SOer I find alot of my thinking along these lines is even more valid than Ron’s commands and policies on it were.❤️
Dear Ann B.
We may both have had the same chiro. A lot of people called my chiro “doc” and he had an office not far from ASHO in the mid 70s.
I do feel we could very well have had the same special”doc.”He put me off chiropractors for years.❤️
Thank you for your personal story re the ulcer and session Bill. What is true for you is true for you and I don’t think others should make fun of you for posting this. When we leave the church, we start questioning everything. And that’s good. I don’t think ALL of Scn was bad or a scam. I think there are some things that are true and worked. But that doesn’t make me a “true believer.” We take from it what works for us and leave the rest. And live and let live.
Yes Cindy (and Ann too) one should believe what one believes. Without what I have seen and experienced, I would not have believed it either.
I can edit it for you…
Brian L. Weiss – a psychiatrist has done considerable work with past-life regression. He’s written a number of books on the subject, “Many Lives, Many Masters”, “Same Soul, Many Bodies” and others.
I’ve also had some very, very compelling ESP experiences that I would never discount, so I can relate.
What’s true for you really is your own personal truth and, almost every other year, scientific discoveries of the most fantastic and mind-bending kind occur. So, the fact that we can not presently account for all that we have experienced in no way, shape or form means that those experiences will never, or can never, be accounted for through empirical inquiry. It just means that we can not do so now.
However, with that said, the true value of any comprehensive theory, containing many different intertwined hypotheses, is in how accurately it explains that which had been previously left unreconciled and how well it predicts future events, based on the causal relationships it proposes.
Put in that scientific method frame of inquiry, $cn makes some very, very grand claims that are completely susceptible to empirical testing. Claimed Clear and OT super powers, such as eidetic recall and telekinesis are very easily put to the test. But sadly, no one has ever been able to objectively demonstrate any of these very high-bar claims, Indeed, if just one individual was to do so, science would come crashing through her door as any validated claim of real telekinesis (cause over MEST through pure thought and intention with no intervening physical means) would rock that world like almost nothing before.
So, while your Psi experiences and mine are real to us and should never be discounted, that does not mean that the causal mechanism of exactly how they occurred is presently known. And to the degree that your auditing and recovery of crucial past life memory actually did cure you of a potentially fatal physical condition, that does not mean that the rest of $cn’s grand claims are also necessarily true.
Indeed, if we wish to preserve that exact same personal integrity standard, then everyone who’s become clear and topped out on the bridge, yet can’t demonstrate the promised abilities at those levels, must admit that they can not do so. And if no one else can either, then the grand truth claims that $cn makes must judged to be false.
I think it’s a mistake to judge Scientology based on anyone making it to the 100% fulfillment of any of Ron’s grandiose claims. To me the true test is simply did a given person get better. For example, if someone could hardly talk to anyone about anything, and then received auditing on Grade 0 and found himself able to talk to most people about most subjects most of the time, I’d call that a very worthwhile result, and I’d say the tech he received worked.
Right. One shouldn’t judge the veracity of a subject on what it claims to deliver vs. what it does deliver.
Only sane people do that.
Sane people know that a subject can contain both truth and falsehood, workability and unworkability. They don’t reject ALL of a subject that does help people but falls short of 100% delivery on its claims, especially when those claims are grandiose and absolute. Instead, they throw out the false and unworkable parts, while preserving and building on the true and workable parts.
Switching to another pre-packaged path may also make sense for some. My personal opinion, having explored a number of paths but far from all, is that probably no path delivers 100% on its theoretical claims. It’s up to each “seeker” to find a path that works best for him or her, and then not only use that path but also contribute to it, to the extent that one is capable.
In the final analysis, religion is about handling fear of death, and that’s a very highly charged issue to say the least. That charge drives people to extreme pro and anti attitudes, words, and actions regarding choice of path, even to murder and genocide as we all know. I submit that we’d be better off doing our best to rise above charge-driven opp-term thinking and polemics, and instead find our individual paths, follow them as best we can, and grant beingness to others to do the same.
Dear my 2 cents worth:
In my opinion your comments are very wise, but that could be just because that you appear to think like I do. And as far as being “sane” I would rather be considered insane than ineffective.
Yes Dead men… I completely understand you experience. Hubbard tell about it “known before this life time” in PTS RD. I witnessed as an auditor several miracles on PC I audited, and also on myself. But when scientology is into the hand of an SP like Miscavige, it’s poisoned and people dies of wrong indications. Out list can completely caved in a person.
Concernig past lives, I know people who had a good record of past lives with proovable details. And scientology is not the only research on the subject, actually there is plenty of it.
It’s sure, Bill, that running that incident saved your life.
Mike, if tech was well applied with the intention to help, and all this Miscavige shit was off, we would most of us still be in the church. There woud be no “SP” like us. In fact there is only one absolute SP, it’s “COB”.
Absolutely correct, FG. The HCOB on PTS R/D correction was what I was reading when I realized that I had known her before. Then in the PTS R/D I did the L&N and did quad ruds and overts on both terminals. It was one of the rare times that the Church came through with the tech just in time.
Though they saved my life with LRH tech, that did not give them the right to kill me later with what all they did.
That is probably a major reason people go along with the suppressive bullshit that the Church puts out now; they have had some good wins and now if they don’t toe the line they think that they will lose them.
Surely if the Church threatened their eternity in the beginning it would have no effect because at that point nobody realizes they even have an eternity to lose.
This is a very touchy subject for Scientologists. A few years back, I posed the question “Where is LRH?” to a handful of my Scn friends. They agreed he was working on Target Two. I countered, “Based on what reference?” and then reminded them of 339R where LRH talks about everyone sticking together and not abandoning their friends. He even says “And you’ll still find me around”. Sparks flew and things quickly descended into an argument. I also pointed out the main points of this post. This subject is just too much for Kool Aid drinkers, you’d think their head was going to explode.
To illustrate the group internal pressure and self-policing that occurs in the church, a good friend pulled me aside and asked “What’s going on with you? Has someone been barking in your ear?”
Still-in Scientologists will not allow themselves to logically address the subject of Scientology.
Statpush, I do believe that some heads have exploded.
Is that that gooey stuff on the walls? No wonder they engage in never ending renos!
Yep! That’s the stuff!
Ain’t that the Truth!A very sticky wicket for those still in to negotiate.Opps not in cos no negotiation allowed!❤️❤️
It’s surprising that you still maintain friendships with a group of dedicated still-ins, and it’s even more surprising that you still do after having that massive cognitive dissonance-inducing conversation with them!
Usually, folks who are unwilling/unable to change what they believe will find effective ways to avoid having the head-exploding experience that you engendered in them. Being able to maintain a compassionate and caring demeanor while speaking the truth as you perceive it to be is a very valuable set of skills.
Whenever I go there, either with $cilons or other dedicated Kool-Aid drinkers, I never do it with a goal of convincing anyone, or changing any single mind, during that conversation itself. Instead, I only hope to plant a seed and spark some small flame of desire to objectively and critically evaluate what they’ve been force fed vs. what their own direct experiences have been.
If you’ve believe that you’ve achieved all that’s been promised in Scn, then who am I to argue with someone else’s internal beliefs and perceptions. The rub comes when $cn makes very gran claims about the super power abilities that one will acquire at various points on the upper bridge. These are not just internal and intangible claims that there is no empirical means of validating; these are very specific claims that are easily proven or disproved.
At the time I was very much “in” and on my OT Levels
Good arguments against the lies of LRH about past lives and so on. Beliefs try this almost everywhere in the world, that’s only “giving some hope” to men. Well, hoping something that doies not exist is being the victim of a fraud. You’d better to take a lotto ticket than hoping an eternal happiness in some paradise!
I am not arguing against past lives. Not in the slightest.
THANK YOU, SIR
Back 4 trillion years ago, Mike & I were studs! Those were some great times…
Aww, that’s nothin! Back then there was 3800 of me, all assigned to go forth and flourish. Man on man, what a fest of flesh, the admin drove me crazy though.
Now that’s a typo that’ll come back to bite me – it’s meant to be “man oh man.” But what the hell it’s just between us immortal beings anyway.
Laughter! Lots of laughter! Still laughing. Now that’s some funny shit!!! You’ll never live it down, though. Good comedy!
Now I’m all introverted! Perhaps I am the source of gayishness?
Bubble meet pin!
Its not necessarily eternal happiness and this is certainly not paradise.
“Where scientology is most problematic is when Hubbard made pronouncements that seemed unverifiable at the time, but are now shown to be ridiculous.”
While I agree that the above is problematic. It is MOST problematic when the pronouncements made have ALWAYS been immediately verifiable but NEVER were. Like exterior with full perception, OT powers, etc.
THAT is what is really disturbing about those who are still Hubbard bots. They are SO far removed from reality that they cannot see that they cannot see.
Very good point!
Great Essay. It brings to mind that to me the idea of past lives is one of the easier things to believe in, in Scientology. Yet where is the evidence?. I imagine just about all Scientologists believe in past lives. But if you were to ask any of them what was your name last life? What street did you live on, What country? What were your kids names? Who was your schoolteacher? What School?
These should be the easiest, most basic questions that one could expect any Scientologist (or others with similar beliefs) to easily answer. Yet how many could give actual answers to these questions, I don’t know any. And if they could it shouldn’t be too difficult to find some evidence to verify it.
Just another area where there one should find some easily find som confirming evidence if the theory is correct. Yet us exes bought into to it unwittingly as a subjective thing but were convinced as if it were objective.
A number of years ago I was with a friend travelling around Europe. He was auditing on OTVII and had become convinced he lived in Nazi Germany last life time. He had his name, birth date, date of death, cause of death, birth place…you name it – like NAILED IT.
So, being in Europe, one of his objectives was to visit and verify all this data. His personal Mission Into Time. He went, spend several days there and eventually abandoned his quest. Nothing checked out. Records didn’t exist (Germans are fastidious record-keepers), buildings and streets didn’t exist, etc.
Of course he had an excuse for each one of these. The mental machinery was whizzing away, justifying why reality did not match up with recall. A rational person would conclude that quite possibly this recall is a false memory.
He continued on auditing on VII, did VIII and is stilling very much active.
All along, HE WAS RIGHT – IT’S THE WORLD THAT’S WRONG
While I tend to believe in past life times, and the spirituality of man, Hubbard did not provide any key to such. I believe the last attempt was the Philadelphia Doctoral Course. His mistake was that instead of presenting it as science and not as philosophy. Thus, it was discredited when facts stated were proven false.
Philosophy does not require facts, only logic.
Ahanofr –
You could “document” your past lives, and so could I, but that doesn’t mean the NYTimes will publish it as the most declaratory revolution since the discovery of fire. More likely, your “alleged documentation” would be immediately shot down as painfully unscientific and without corroborating evidence of any kind, no double-blind tests (without a clue what a double-blind test is) … with some editorializing about the delirium of the gullible. Or it would be amazingly, completely ignored.
If I may, the origin of science is philosophy, and some data is required for philosophy. The big question has been, which data? What is “a datum” if not perception, and how does one prove or logically demonstrate one’s perception to another? (You can’t, you have to rely upon another looking for himself.) For all logic, one needs a proposition to begin with, and that proposition is based on perception, it seems to me. I found a good book on logic, by Paul Hoyningen-Huene “Formal Logic.” In it he points out that there is a process of, as I would put it, connecting the dots, or seeing how one statement logically follows upon another. That, there, is a datum, that a being is capable of associating cause with effect, and that’s the foundation of science.
When I was recruited for the Sea Org in May of 1986, the recruiters told me that LRH had chosen a body on Target Two and needed about twenty or thirty years to get the Tech going on that planet, during which time the Sea Org was tasked with “finishing up the job” here on Earth. The recruiter was a ridiculously beautiful 19-year girlwoman shivering in a too-tight sweater she had borrowed because the org was cold and she had just arrived from Los Angeles. Who knew Oregon would still be so cold in May? She couldn’t wait to get back to the sunshine and spoke authoritatively, if somewhat scattershot. I am embarassed to admit the thing I remember most clearly was her magnificent bosom, quivering under gray wool while she shivered. There were two other recruiters, both male, but I don’t even remember if they spoke.
By the time she got to the part about meeting Ron on Target Two in about thirty years, I finally couldn’t take it anymore and rudely interrupted her. “What about the Challenger explosion that just happened? Doesn’t seem like a good start for interplanetary travel.” I wanted to ask why LRH dropped his body at the same time as the shuttle disaster, but I knew better than to bring it up.
She paused and looked at her companions. Finally, she said, “SPs blew it up. We’ve still got a lot of work to do and that’s why you have sign up now!” She nodded toward the contract in front of me. On top of it was a beautiful Montblanc pen that looked to be made of lapis lazuli, begging to be picked up and fondled.
By 1993, which was the last time I was recruited for the Sea Org, the story had changed to a decidedly less interplanetary “LRH was coming back”. By that time, I knew I wasn’t, even if it took me more than a decade to finally walk away.
Thank you again from my heart for a stunning post.I can see that Montblac pen glittering at you.Love the bosoms too.Yup I recall SO members of the male persuasion liking the well endowed.I was not in that group so had to use my wits instead lol!Sure does make that darn recruiting/regging go down more easily.I admire your strength.❤️❤️
Quite honestly Mike I’m shocked you even made this post. If He came back as Jones and demonstrated full recall of life as Hubbard it would overwhelm the whole planet. Every man, woman and child on it would never be able to recover from such an overwhelm as no tech has ever been developed to repair such damage.
That would be an incredibly irresponsible thing to do.
Interested Party I hope you are joking. And you really don’t believe that.
I also hope that was a comment made in jest.
That statement reminds me of the ‘party trick’ defense……’oh, I can’t show you my OT superpowers. It’s not a party trick’
Um, sure….let’s just go with your word then…..you and your friends can make hurricanes change direction, but to show me how you can move a spoon with your mind would be a party trick…..I get it now
I’m guessing you chaps are Americans. Of course I was joking. 🙂
It’s that subtle British wit that I love! ?
Me too!
Pretty sure it is a joke. Sort of sad that it is so difficult to tell sometimes what is parody/satire and what is the real thing.
True that Mike.I go back over some of my comments and wish there was an icon of a joker or some such,because sometimes it is hard to tell just from a post.❤️
Poe’s law. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe's_Law
Those lying cockaroaches. A friend of mine was a patient of Dr Denk who signed LRHs Death Certificate. HE ASKED DENK IF THE OFFICAL STORY OF LRHS DEATH WAS. TRUE.
DENKS EYES ROLLED BACK IN HIS HEAD AND HE SAID ” HE HAD A STROKE. HE DIED. END OF STORY.
Brilliant Bill.❤️❤️
IP,
The Dave watchers should be on alert as His next move will be to make a video about how El Con returned and, unable to locate any drug free bodies, decided to occupy the finest specimen still available and ……. well …………. He will declare that he is now channeling the old man.
Yo Dave,
How about a SuMP event. You con do it good buddy!
Good post.Yeah Dave, how about it on that glorious zero nothing showing today studio.The answer an endless loop of dm channeling Ron,Oh Save Me!!❤️
That was a joke, right ?
I can’t tell anymore, and I suspect that’s the lame excuse Scientologists use to get out of the terrible cognitive dissonance that must plague them when they think of all those superpowahs no one ever sees.
Just in case they’re reading this : Don’t worry your confused little brains, this little wog, along with their 7 billion fellow wogs, would recover juuuuust fine. We recovered from Battlefield Earth, after all.
Thank you Kemist,right on target!❤️
Sheesh! I hope hubbard realizes that or we’re all in big trouble!
After reading your comments this morning Mike, I finally took the plunge and looked up the materials of OTIII, The Wall of Fire on the internet. You’re arguments were so convincing and seemingly truthful I decided to test the authenticity of them.
All I can say is THANKS FOR NOTHING!
I am currently dictating this note on my death bed because all bodily functions are leaving this corporeal vessel faster than you can say “Command Intention”. The doctors are mystified at the immediate onset of severe pneumonia and doubt if I’ll survive the day.
Readers of this blog please heed this warning and DO NOT for any reason test the veracity of this very powerful Technology.
If I can save only one of you from this horrible end I will feel somewhat vindicated from my horribly misguided actions.
So this is very likely my last post. Farewell Mike….Dude….Ann B Watson….Yawnalot…Len….and all the rest of you sinners. Hopefully the old man takes pity on my wretched soul and…..can’t talk….losing consciousness…..Hip, Hip…Hoo….
(He’s gone doctor…call it…end of assist).
Harvey you had me going for a minute. That’s some funny shit.LOL
The actual line I’ve used for decades is: Now that’s some funny shit.
Boy Harvey you had me going there too.Thank you your death was very well done.See you in 21 years LOL❤️❤️
It’s the Emperor’s New Clothes over and over again.
Yup. Pretty amazing. What WAS I thinking?
We all certainly wanted it to be that way ………….. so we decided it was and believed what we wanted to believe………….. until the facts proved otherwise!
I’m not sure what it takes from one person to the next to decide to shed the illusion but humans certainly have a capacity to turn a belief into a fact. These days, I tend to speculate that El Con did that to himself rather than my previous thought that he was a knowing con man. But that is perhaps just what I want to believe!
I’ve sort of wondered if that’s not why there is such an emphasis on getting so much biographical information on Hubbard, real or imagined, out in the public sphere. Wouldn’t it be easier for a high ranking Scientologist to proclaim their young progeny is the new manifestation of Hubbard and force feed the child the bio details as proof? I know that some Buddhist schools, especially Tibetan investigate claims like that by testing to see what the claimant can remember from the previous incarnation or recognise the previous incarnation’s effects, etc.
Of course, a high ranking Scientologist who wanted to say their kid was the reincarnation of Tubs would have to know about Sara Northrup and a lot of other “hidden data lines.”
Ooh, good point.
And then claim she didn’t exist.
I lived down the street from a reincarnated Tibetan saint, known as a Tulku in Tibetan Buddhism.
My kids played with him and his sisters. As a boy and teenager he did not appear to be anything other than just a normal kid.
His mother tells the story that as a toddler he threw french fries out the car window so the bugs would have something to eat. Aha, she thought, showing compassion for all living things. I better call on the monks to verify. You can guess what happened next!
When I was about 8yo I put a box over a bug to keep the rain off of it. Hey there, Lama – what about me???
PS: I wouldn’t be the first Jewish High Muckety-Muck. We got Swamis. We got big time Buddhists. We got Baba Ram Das fer crissakes!
Hi civmar, I love your post about the bug!Thank you.Baba Ram Das,he made all the rounds at the all girls jr college I was forced to attend.❤️Those girls had phds in flapping gums!