I am seeking some information.
Anyone who has experienced first-hand, or has personal knowledge of anything like this happening to another, please make yourself known in the comments section and I will email you at the address you provide as part of posting your comment.
This exact scenario happened to one person, but I do not believe it is limited to this single instance. I believe that as the pressure to collect money (especially for ideal orgs) has grown, those held responsible for meeting the targets have become increasingly desperate.
Here is the scenario:
Person A “donates” for an “ideal org” but then has some sort of short term “problem” making good on the money. Person B is approached by a staff member to “cover” the amount, promising that it will be repaid in a specified, short period of time. The staff member is desperate, having already reported they had X amount of money now and could go forward with the next step of x,y,z. Now if they report they didnt in fact have the money, they will be on the RPF so they become desperate.
Of course, the repayment to Person B does not happen as Person A didn’t have the money in the first place.
Person B is left holding the bag, and it no longer contains any money. The staff member suddenly has “no responsibility” to make good as he doesn’t have any money personally and cannot get anything from the org. The promises tumbled out of his mouth when he was persuading Person B to hand over the cash, now such promises “were never made.” Now Person B i shunted off by the church and told to try and collect their money back from Person A — the very person that stiffed the church in the first place.
There are variations on this example — regges approaching Person B to make a short term loan to Person A so they can get onto services (and thus make them more able to make money). Person A never repays. Person B has no recourse.
“Fundraisers” asking Person B for “bridging loans” to “cover” a payment until the “approval” comes back from the bank. The approval never comes.
You may have heard of other versions. In short, it is any circumstance where a public person has been regged to give money, not directly for something, but to “help out” or “make good” or “cover” someone else’s payment…
If this has happened to you or you know of it happening to someone else, please let me know. The more details and specifics the better — when, names, amounts of money and any other details. NOTHING will be used without your express permission.
I am trying to establish whether this is a pattern and practice of the church — with specific evidence of such.
Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.
Dear Mr. Rinder ,
Yes , I can confirm about that happening at the PR Org , specifically this things :
“There are variations on this example —regges approaching Person B to make a short term loan to Person A so they can get onto services (and thus make them more able to make money). Person A never repays. Person B has no recourse.
“Fundraisers” asking Person B for “bridging loans” to “cover” a payment until the “approval” comes back from the bank. The approval never comes.”
You may have heard of other versions. In short, it is any circumstance where a public person has been regged to give money, not directly for something, but to “help out” or “make good” or “cover” someone else’s payment…”
In fact, this is very old story. I’ll fill you in ,privately, if you fill me in on some information I need which I an sure you are familiar with.
ARC
THE PHOENIX
Mike,
A full story is contained in: http://backincomm.wordpress.com/2013/11/09/here-is-their-story-ernest-gaye-corbett/
.
Shamefull.
I have knowledge of several of these incidents. They were standard practice in OC in the 80’s. Registrars promote themselves as financial advisers. In some cases they charged things to someone else’s credit card without their knowledge, then paid that off with another credit card before interest was due, then another and so on.
In Canada in the 80’s they were pushed hard by a missionaire who reportedly declared people who did not give her money, to the extent of showing up as a group in the middle of the night with the targeted deadbeat recipient in tow. Reges and FBO’s also participated in arranging these loans. Also Flag reges would have a person on the resign line sit in their office and call everyone they knew asking for more money.
I cringe to admit that I was pressured into a few of these and lost several thousand dollars to uncollectable loans. Once it is past Thursday at 2, the org doesn’t want to know about it.
Happened to me in OC in the 90’s. Someone was regged to lend me money to do the purif and then that “debt” was paid by someone else who I then lent money too.
Woo hoo! Amex Rollovers at the Pac Base! Party like it’s the 1980s! 😀
Heart breaking ^^^this is why.
Wow! I guess I should not be surprised that this garbage still goes on in the “church”! I know this scheme of getting others to cover and lend money to others on the reg lines was used extensively back in the early 80’s in a big mission. It created many messes, ARCXs etc. but we sure did boom! Just don’t look too close! In the end we (yes, I was involved) were heavily corrected with ethics and cramming etc. I have seen these games crop up over and over, undoubtedly a by product of “unreasonable” product officers and stat pushing. Crazy stuff…. Mike, I can’t say I remember a lot of specifics, but if it helps I can fill in some data.
Or even simpler: Don’t ever lend $ to Scientologists. Period. 🙂
Shortly after the ‘Basics’ were released I was asked by the then Chief Off of ASHOD to “use my credit card” so a Field Auditor friend of mine could have a set to sell. I did it readily to help my friend. This deal did not go south, thank goodness. He paid me back as fast as he could.
On the other hand, a month or so later I was called by Paul Nolan from ABLE Int to make a loan to Rick Pendry’s New Mexico Criminon venture. The loan was to pay about 10% interest. Paul said it was a great investment and as close to a sure thing as possible. I went ahead and made a loan of $1500. Once he got my money Paul never would return my calls. And thanks to Rick Pendry’s mismanagement (greed) I lost my investment after New Mexico closed the Criminon.
Truthfully, the only thing that still bothers me is being triple teamed while on the Class VI C/S Course to pay $38,000 to become a patron. It sickens me to this day that I did it. That was money I should have used to make needed repairs to my then house. But no, “helping” the 4th dynamic by giving it to the IAS was much more prudent…So prudent that I ended up having to do a short sale on my house a few years later when our heater stopped working and we couldn’t afford to replace it. Very humiliating.
This has gone on for years. When I finished staff in 2007 I started getting phone calls to buy the basics full package. I gave every excuse possible and then they rang back within an hour and told me someone had paid for my basics and I would need to pay them back . They then gave me the guys number. I rang him and he was pissed off big time. I paid him back immediately and I was pissed off with the reggae big time. This was done through the CO of Anzo whilst doing reg training at Flag
Hi Mike,
I’m not sure how far back you want to take this data collection … I have some specifics dating back to 1987-1988. Specifically the company I was running was owned by a Scientologist who was also “moonlighting” as an IAS reg. As that year’s Birthday Game was coming to an end, he decided (I’m certain with a little encouragement from the IAS Office WUS) to start using his business checking accounts to “float” patron donations at $40,000 to $100,000 a pop. That is front the money so it counted on that week’s stats and then get paid by the soon-to-be Patron. Over a quarter million bounced.
Second instance was a little later (1988) when regges and FSMs at AOLA had secured the services of a number of Amex green, gold and platinum cards owned by others. The deal was to have someone with no money, put his NOTs package or OT III package on an Amex card and then pay the person back BEFORE the amount was due — usually 20-30 days later.
So …. the game eventually failed and AMEX pulled the plug on AOLA using their cards — at least for a while.
If it’ll help, I can write something up for you.
Odd
Tha nks Odd, probably a bit too old, but if you can write it up and email to me that would be great.
Mike, the one I almost got suckered into only involved a reg slightly.
However, the would-be-recipient who was trying to sell the idea to me was an ex-SO member who was later involved in an illegal situation involving a member of DM’s family. Let me know if you would interested in this even though the primary mover was not a reg.
This is an important LRH reference.
SPDs, which I call SP Directives, are not even valid Scientology issues as they were not authorized by LRH and are not mentioned in HCOPL 24 September 1970RA, Revised 3 July 1977 entitled HCOPL Issues, Types of.
Back in 1995, I run out of paid intensives at Flag for a repair action (paid by my in- laws, I recently had been offloaded off the Outer Org Trainee Program) and had no money, Flag approached my boss and OTV and she paid for 3 more intensives, I paid her back by receiving half of my pay for years, I was making 6 dollars an hour cleaning her house and babysitting. She was nice with me and she really thought she was helping me to get the auditing a really needed. All that repair ended with nothing was wrong from the beginning. AND I WROTE A SUCCESS STORY!!!!!! Looking back I can hardly believe it!
This is the scenario:
I had just finished marriage counseling at the local org, got a divorce and I was not doing well financially, I was struggling to start again.
I worked in a place were 99% of employees were scientologists. I was visited day and night at my home by two registrars, I was vulnerable, every visit I remember crying about something, and this two registrars over an over again insisted that the solution was to pay for the next service; which was re-doing the Puriff and the wonderful new Objectives!
I had no money, no credit, no home, I was leaving in the apartment provided by my job and didn’t want to pay for any services, I wanted to get back to College and had no time. Well they kept coming back, staying until later and later, it was exhausting but I did not have the energy to kick them out, I was still a scientologists and every time I just felt guilty for not giving them money.
After a week or so of this, they came saying that they had good news!!! Another employee with an excellent credit card is lending money to several scientologists to pay for their next service, at this point they were also telling us that the org was in trouble and that they needed the money to pay for electricity and other things and if they didn’t have it this week the org was going to close!!!! So I needed to help and this was how.
At first I said no!! I don’t know when I am going to be able to pay back! I was starting over as a single mom. Well long story short, that day at midnight, they wouldn’t leave my house, I agreed.
I was so scare to owe to a co-worker that the next two paychecks I just hand them over to him, well the money is still there at the org, never did it and today I am not a scientologists anymore.
Thinking back it was so much coercion, manipulation with a friendly smile that makes me sick, I had no money, I was crying, alone, scare but they were going to get money out of me, and I let them. This was just before the whole Ideal Org thing started.
I haven’t talk about not being a scientologists yet because I have been scare of loosing my kids.
As part of a deal to reduce my freeloder debt, I was told to buy two basics packages for SCNs in Europe who couldn’t afford all the money up front; 1 person in Germany and 1 in Italy. By the way, this was two people from OSA INT calling me to strike this deal. Both people were supposed to pay me back monthly. I bought the two packages. They were shipped out from Bridge. Both people reneged on the agreement and never picked the packages up from customs. I spoke with Bridge and demanded a refund. The guy yelled at me and told me that the packages had been part of a deal to reduce my FL debt. I pointed out that the “DEAL” was to make a loan…not to BUY and swallow the costs of two Basics packages. He eventually relented and refunded my credit cards.
You were lucky!
Sounds like it was easier to be a staff member at Int Base than a public!
🙂
Lots of variations on a theme here!
My circumstance was fronting money for another public for a full Basics package in late 2007. Amber the ASHO Day Qual Sec orchestrated this and it was a “sure thing” that public X (don’t recall her name) would pay me back ASAP. Of course she never did and I was out the full price.
I left the Chur$h several months later upon following Jeff Hawkins’ blog for a bit. The “Miscavage Reveal” made it all clear why things had been getting crazier and crazier…
Yes. Once personally a co-worker/scientologist desperately needed auditing or she would “get cancer” and so I loaned her 6k. She did make good and pay it back after her husband found out and was enraged and embarrassed.
My boss loaned the same couple around 100k to pay off free loaders debt. When I left the company and all the madness they had been terminated from the company and were not making good on payments. There seemed no recourse for my former boss as legal action is not allowed between two scientologists.
I know someone who had his account ripped off for Basics without his approval. Took three years to get it corrected.
I had an SO member steal about $1500 off of my cc. He had the number because of prior transactions. I made him pay me back. His answer was interesting when I asked him why. Because he was under such stress and lack of sleep to meet Basics quota that he didn’t care and of course, I couldn’t report it because I didn’t want him personally to get in trouble and I couldn’t report the true source of the problem cuz that would just bring down more he’ll on me.
I had about 12 intensive taken off my services account and debited to Basics. Was pleaded with (to put it mildly) to do this with the promise it would be put back as intensifies in four days. Another person’s account was ripped off to do that named Gaby but that’s all I remember.
Me too. Me too. The basics were debited from my services account at Flag without my knowledge or authorization. I refused to accept the shipment. Broke up the money I had paid for services. Can’t remember how it all resolved. Well, it didn’t resolve because I’m obviously here making a comment on Mike’s blog.
The Church of Scumbags, McCarran. How can anyone left think that this is about anything other than fleecing every member of every single dollar they have?
I wish I could remember specifics but alas I can’t, it’s just too long ago. This sort of money acquisition practice was rife in ANZO late 80s onwards. So many students were quiet and reticent after lunchtime regging and to see the regges hovering like hawks outside the academy waiting to pounce at the end of the day was actually embarrassing that I was a member of such an organisation.
Reading this particular subject on this blog gives me that ill feeling again.
It’s such a blight against any sort of humanity to use such a wicked practice under the guise of religious freedom and hope. So many gave all they had and got no exchange except suppressed heartache and financial misery.
Shame shame shame on the management of the church – may they all get the reverse flow they deserve – push this one up Mike, make it count!
Mike, not sure if stories from South Africa aid your enquiry, but just in case:
1. I recall being asked to request a loan from an OTVIII about thirty years ago to do services – the meeting was arranged in the org. The guy refused the loan. I was not keen to get into debt back then, so I was relieved. Some pressure had been brought to bear on me to make the request.
2. I was asked to pay for two book and lecture packages for sets which were allegedly “lost in customs in Zimbabwe”. There was a long story about some poor people in Zim who were not going to get their books and lectures due to this even though they had paid, and CO PUBS AF was told to “handle it”. (Not prepared to deliver what they had promised?) I realized too late it was a bullshit story, KR’ed CO PUBS AF, all the way to RTC (oh what a waste – they wrote and told me they understood my complaint and would deal with it . I think they did NOTHING. Or possibly filed my KR as a commendation). So this is more of a fraud than a request to fund someone else – although that seems to have been the apparency of the request.
Wendy — yes, information from anywhere is of value.
Totally common practice and well known IF you were a public person or on reg lines. One of those “everybody does it” dirty deals in Scientology.
The Church of Everybody Does It. This criminal organization is just that, criminal. And…getting worse.
My account was stripped of over $5000.00 after I telephonically agreed to donate $500
Do you mean telepathically? Don’t respond in the blog, just postulate your answer to me
Mike, PLEASE tell me you eventually got it all back! Please…
I of course am not surprised that this would happen–Scientology is very creative at ways of extracting money from its parishioners. Personally, I have been pressured a number of times to pay for services, the last time I forked over for the basics and the congresses, but I was never asked to borrow money from another party or to lend money to another party.
Thank you Jose.
How hilarious that Church Management accused the *Mission Holders* of financial irregularities while they have continued to rape, pillage, co-erce and extort funds every hours of existence.
And there is no transparency. No audits, no Committee or outside accountability. The money vanishes .
Mike you are priceless,
There are about over a thousand variations of this scam.
Person A gets services at Org, has extra money ,tells reg. who calls public B.
“I have another public who will pay for YOUR auditing if you pay me/him back.
I am public B and declined. The reg does the transaction anyway and I am stuck to pay the bill I didnt ask for,even refused. I accepted the services and paid back the unwanted loan so as not piss off another public. The Reg was Cal Cole.
There is the “help”paying rent variant.( to get on lines)
There is the classic remote purchase of lrh tapes so a kid joins the Sea org.
First payment of $300. to this kid in the Sea Org he splits to Las Vegas for
booze, slot machines and low budget hookers. Is thrown out of Sea Org
He ends up on my door step begging for a plane ticket back to Canada within 24 hours or he is declared an SP. That was an AOLA scam where I was out for $1200.
nothing but upset and time wasted on lunatic Canadians.
The De Digging Gretchen Swartz scam. Touted as all Lrh but really was Russian Psychatry. Gretchen Swartz became so ill she dropped dead on post in front of Sea Org associates. Pavlovian Psychiatry will do that !!!!.
Top Blackmailer and scammer Carrie Alkins,same deal.
Pay me what you put on the Bridge dollar for dollar or else I make sure you never go free.
My reply, Go to hell, fuck you. Carrie Alkins drops dead !!!
This is the CCHR variant of the C of S money scam.
Louis Swartz another Nazi Bridge scammer,hes NOT A JEW.
He would wear a Yarmulke purchased in a Chinatown Novelty store
to look jewish conducting Scientology services. Same store sells rubber dog shit and latex pillows that make farting sounds when you sit on them.
Louis Swartz is a NAZI MURDERER.
I will testify before CONGRESS about these criminals.
Anytime Baby,
Jose
Jose, I REALLY hope you do get before congress! This criminal organization needs to be exposed.
I had a person call me from flag that I knew, but not that well. She was desperate to borrow money. Of course I said no, but I’m sure she was calling anyone and everyone she could think of.
Mike,
I have info on several situations, all of which involved loaning other cult members money so they could donate it to an Idle Morgue, purchase auditing and so on. I will get you the data by separate mail. It involves tens of thousands to several individuals and many different orgs, all of which total up to over six figures.
Thanks Coop.
I must say, practically everyone has one or more of these stories.
The ones I am most interested in are those where the STAFF MEMBER arranged the “bridging loan” — not so much one public begging another public for money.
This is a general announcement for everyone with respect to this info, not specifically for you Cooper.
That’s why the church cracked down on some of the Scn attorneys who made a living doing bankruptcy for clients.. I know of one who got in trouble at Flag for helplng Scns declare and file bankruptcy and so he had to do a whole thing of sending out stuff to all his clients saying that bankruptcy is not the answer and doing whatever else in his conditions. I think there was a big case where the IRS did try to get money from the church that the guy had AP paid for prior to bankaruptcy and that is why they cracked down on the guys helping people do bankruptcy.
Get ’em, Mike!
Not directly OT (on topic, not operating thetan) but the scenario you describe reminds me of a question I have previously asked (I don’t think I asked it in this forum). How often does a Bankruptcy Trustee (appointed by a court for the purpose of finding money spent.by the bankrupt party) go after funds held “on account” for future services for Co$ members… Something to keep in the back of everyone’s mind when speaking to or advising church members who have to declare BK….make sure the court knows about funds you may have on account…. Let the govt ask the church for the “refunds”. Maybe if it happens frequently enough the govt will get a clue as to the financial fraud being perpetrated by the Co$.
Outstanding post, Chee! Would love to see that happen!
+1
in my 40 years as a public I have done it often .. paying for another public .. I got the most of all money back, but not all .. some money went lost which such deals .. sometimes I did spent money for a person which I have never seen personally .. some did need years for paying it back .. but most of them did it in the final ..
I was asked by a reg to short-term-lend 5 digit amounts to two persons I did not know for their bridges. This would have been 80’s/90’s. Many years later I did receive the principal back. The church did not help. One of these requests was after the guy had already reneged on repayments on similar loans the reg had arranged.
A woman I knew asked me to lend her $ for a couple intensives at her local org. I was eventually paid back and then she asked again. She was hoping it would increase her GI or something. She couldn’t pay me back so agreed to repay me in products she sold. Of course once I was declared she wouldn’t talk to me and of course refuses to pay me back.
So very typical of this cult, Bluebonnet. I’m sorry for your loses, but, glad you’re out and free! Having left in 1982, I was never asked to pay for other peoples courses. Of course, if I had been I would of flatly refused. You see, I’m Scottish. We’re the cheapest people on the planet
I know of an example of this that happened about 15 years ago. What made it worse was that the public person who gave the loan was the FSM of the person who was being reg’d by an org, and got a 10% commission.
In the 80’s I lent money to a guy for his intensive with the agreement it would be paid back by a certain date, a short term loan. He agreed. He never paid it back. I tried to collect and the org protected him. They arranged for him to give me some R and D Vols as payment. I said, but I don’t want the R and D Vols! I want cash cuz I gave him cash! They said take this or take nothing and the Chaplain was on his side because he was staff at LA Org and I was “mere public.” I was never happy about receiving an “enforced overt have” on the cycle. Years later I saw him at Flag as a public getting onto OT VII. I was incensed that he would be allowed up the Bridge after all his scamming and scheming financial irregularities.
You have a good heart, Cindy! I’m sorry the Church of Give Me All Your Money Right Now, took advantage of you. But, what goes around…
This is probably a super-hot topic and Mike is swamped with responses. I have sent him one via the “contact” on the blog but I have another that’s just come to mind. I was at the AO doing services and I needed to pay for something “immediately,” according to the reg. I can’t remember when this was but I suspect it was during Dr Denk’s hiatus or not long after (1980’s), perhaps extending into the 1990’s. The reg was Enid (RIP) or her sidekick, whose name I simply cannot come up with right now. The reg had a public who would put his/her credit card on the line to pay for the service and I simply needed to pay that person back. I did it … Oh how I wish for an eidetic memory when these type of questions come up!
Rachel,
Perhaps Enid’s sidekick’s name was Steve Kemper?
I was approached for a variant of this in 1995. A short term loan was needed to get a project going and once Wiebke Hansen got busted the Church asked to convert the loan to a donation. It was a good 6 figure number and I had to fight for 2 months to have the church pay back the loan it had taken from me, They did at least for the vast portion of it. The rest went on account to FLAG, for prepayed services. Of course the CO$ refused to pay back the prepayed services more recently.
Any scheme to get their hand on liquid cash seems to be OK.
Mike I knew first hand from Ramon Quijas, a Mexican at Flag. He went there to have some repair and did not have money for some handling. Jose Luis Galicia, another Mexican, lent him the money for Ramon to take advantage of being at Flag. Then Ramon accused Jose Luis of the FSM comission received for that loan. Maybe back in 1995.
Absolutely saw this as recently as a few years ago and the debt ran into the millions. Was an OT from Orange County that had missions, multiple businesses and was fairly well off. In exactly the scenario you described he provided bridge loans and was left holding the bag and subsequently lost everything and went into hiding. Email me for further info if you would like
In or around 2003 I was asked by the Reg at the San Diego Org to “cover” for another public who was “good for the money” where funds were needed to put on account for a service. I asked if there was any collateral, to which the answer was “no”. I then informed the reg that I was not Bank of America and that was the end of the conversation. I do have another friend who did succumb to this practice and loaned money to Flag public. This person reads this blog and perhaps my mentioning it here will jog his/her memory.
I have specific information on a couple of comm evs convened specifically for this practice at Flag back in 2009.
Yep, I know of a few of these that happened with public of Birmingham Org when I was on the OT Committee there.
COSMOD ran a formal scam in I think the late ’70s and early ’80s. It was called Freedom Federal Credit Union (FFCU). You can read a bit about it at http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?t=28244&start=15 and elsewhere on the web.
In northern California in that same time frame it was typical for reges to urge the “mark” to borrow money from relatives and other Scientologists. I don’t recall instances from that time period though of reges persuading person B to give money for person A, although the FFCU scam amounted to pretty much the same thing.
Actually, this was in the early-mid ’70s. The fallout when COSMOD bankrupted Freedom Federal Credit Union was remarkable. Lesson learned: don’t loan money to $cientologists who couldn’t afford to pay for their services to begin with.
I had a similar situation in 1989. I was being regged by someone at LA Day for two weeks worth of services. He told me I had to pay for it that day or the service would no longer be available. I did not have a credit card at the time. He persuaded a staff member at the local mission to put it on his credit card. I did pay him back immediately.
Let me know if you want the names of the people involved.
Hey Mike,
If you interested in the situation below, let me know.
Person A buys 5 Ship packages then has to sell them herself to people who can’t afford to come up with all that money at once. The person/s that Person A sells them to agrees to pay back Person A on whatever arrange the two of them work out. Once Person A “sells” an OT 8 & 9 package to someone, Person A tells the Ship the name of the person who she sold her package/s to so they can go receive the services.
All works according to plan until someone requests that the Ship REPAY the unused portion. Ship tells this person there’s no money to be returned because Person A bought the services, not Person B despite the fact that it was Person B who used part of the package!.
I’ll go throw up now.
Shannon — gagworthy for sure, but it isnt what I need for this purpose. Thanks for responding though.
In 2007 after GAT a group of people visited us at our LA Condo with a big “deal.” A couple of reges and one or two public had this plan to sell a bunch of sets of the GAT books to other public and the “parishioners” just needed $17,000 to buy these books. The reges wanted us to lend this amount to the guys and then we would be repaid out of the sales, plus some of the profit of course. It was all I could do to hold down my disbelief! We managed to say no.
Happened to me probably around the time of this policy date. Not home right now but definitely could find a paper trail as I’ve saved all my Scn receipts. As public at a local org I lent money to another public (the org charged my CC) for a service with the agreement that he’d pay me back under agreed upon terms. He was able to pay back a small amount but didn’t have means to pay entire amount. Eventually he and I “settled” for a lesser amount to retire his debt to me.
I was convinced by a Flag reg to loan some money to a guy I was kind of dating. She convinced me to loan him $500.00 towards a rundown. It was put on my Amex. He got the rundown. I think he paid me back $50.00. This happened around 1993. I had been in scientology long enough to know I had no recourse to get my money back.
There is specific policy forbidding this practice. SPD 3 July 1994 Tax Rudiments Policy 10 Personal Loans for the Bridge.
Maybe the policy became inconvenient. I can send you a copy of it if you like.
No, its fine. I am looking for violations of this policy, not the policy itself. You are probably the only person on earth that still recalls it! 🙂 Certainly a lot of regges forgot it 15 seconds after reading it, if they even read it at all…
Yeah, the way things are these days, if I were to point out that this policy exists I would be accused of being CI.
🙂
Would it be possible for Simple to share this policy for those of us who might not have read it or might have forgotten it in 15 seconds?
Rachel – I’ll scan it and email it to Mike and he can decide how to share it (if he wants to).
Thanks for the scan Simple and Mike. It’s interesting the HCO PL quoted by Peter Bonyai is straight to the point while the SPD goes into tax ramifications. Rachel
There is even an HCO PL forbidding this:
“[…] org personnel may not solicit payments from staff or public on behalf of others. Orgs may not arrange for checks to be issued temporarily on behalf of another between public persons or with staff to obtain collections. Occasionally a student or pc in the org offers payment for a friend. Thats fine. But orgs may not solicit or suggest it. Not ever.” HCO POLICY LETTER OF 17 FEBRUARY 1971-1RC, HANDLING OF BOUNCED CHECKS AND REFUNDS
I personally bid a lengthy ethics program for doing such a thing. 🙂 Anyway, it was definitely in practice while I was in the Sea Org (1997-2005), along with abusing credit cards for that purpose. For instance, even when the prospective moneylender said “no”, the Reg still charged his credit card to pay for the auditing of someone else.
Yes, the SPD references this policy. Apparently nobody remembers this one either.
I don’t know about idle org fundraisers first hand but ‘…regges approaching Person B to make a short term loan to Person A so they can get onto services (and thus make them more able to make money)’ is a pattern I have examples of, from 1998, 2002 and this year.
It didn’t happen to me personally but did happen to a friend of mine, a still-in. First was on the Basics. He was told to buy a bunch and that the staff member would hat him and help him to re-sell them to public who couldn’t afford to buy the basics and he could sell it to them on payment and thus recoup his money. So many sets were sent him and the staff member never did help him despite his many calls and KR’s.
Next scenario, same person, one of the semi whales in Las Vegas, had already given all he could for Ideal Org and they promised him they wouldn’t ask him for any more and would put his name on the plaque on the building as a great donor and contributor. (That never happened). Anyway, they came to him and said the check to the contractor bounced and they needed him to pay to make it good or help make it good and it was supposed to be a short term thing and that so and so would pay him back (the guy whose check bounced). The Scn never paid him back and the org terminals didn’t help at all and acted like they had no responsibility for it.
And on the Basics again, same guy, a bunch of basics arrived at his house and the label said they were for Mitch Talevi, an FSM. He called Mitch and said that his basics were delivered by mistake to him. Mitch wouldn’t take them. I am not clear as sto who paid for those books, but I get the idea it was again some way of making the Las Vegas guy pay for them. I wish he were out so he could give more exact details of all this.
A friend did OT VIII on the Ship and ran out of money. They wouldn’t let her off the Ship to go home until the got the money. They made her call everyone she knew and ask for money. She called me twice. I said, “But you just called 3 days ago and I told you then that I don’t have any money.” She acted like she was trying not to cry. And in so many words said she can’t leave until she borrows the money from friends (banks wouldn’t lend it to her.) Finally a mutual friend of ours gave her the money when they didn’t want to. She also joined staff as part of the deal and I think by signing the staff contract while on the Ship it meant she could get it for half price.
The event above sound like hostage taking. And not making criminal complaints may facilitate it going on for quite a while longer.
Gosh, Cindy, the cult is so blatant about taking every last dime someone has. Not letting someone off the ship until she gets the money THEY WANT, is really fucked up. But, that’s scientology…
Wow Cindy – that story about your friend on the Freewinds is shocking. But it is not the first time I have heard of people leaving the ship totally ARC broken. So much for the EPs of “freedom from overwhelm” and “at cause”. Leave it to the church to totally destroy any gains a person may have made and still have the nerve to demand payment for it.
Jens, I agree. Sounds like hostage taking to me too. Shocking in the extreme!
Cindy, I’m responding to the hostage comment. I’m thinking how funny it would have been if your friend had turned the tables on these maniacs and said, “OK, you’re not going to let me leave? Fine, I’ll stay here and you feed me and shelter me on the Freewinds. In fact, I’m kinda hungry now. Guess I’ll go to lunch, and then afterwards I think I’ll take a little nap. Seeya”.. Now, I get that this would never happen, but it would be funny if it ever did, because they can’t let a public starve or sleep in the engine room. (Right?)
Spot on Aqua!
Scn justice is a sad joke, indeed. The higher up the staff involved in any wrongdoing is, the closer the public is to an enturbulation order if he dares a hiss and stop smilingly taking the blows. WISE is just another racket.
Breach of fiduciary duty, undue influence are all acceptable conduct, in this most ethical group on earth.
This happened to us back in 1990s. Approached by an FSC to lend $5000 to a public in another state that we didn’t know. It was money to pay for their services. The public only repaid a very small amount of the loan. I’ll look thru my paperwork to see if I have specifics.
Three times was involved in one of the situations:
1. Was told to get a loan from another member. Did and eventually I paid it back.
2. Was told that I had a debt to the Org even though I didn’t, my boss at the time (OT VII) paid it for me and then I paid it back.
3. Was told to put my CC as colateral while waiting for a loan to go thru. Loan didn’t as I had no intention to get it and come thursday at 2:00 they charged it to the CC anyway.
I have several examples, both personal and some friends that were made to do this.