Remember these posters above featuring Atlanta as the exemplary “ideal org” that had expanded by 10X upon having its ribbon yanked?
Well, here is the REALITY …
We have seen a few of the “Letter Reg” letters from Atlanta over the years. This is just the latest. It comes with a bit of back story that indicates the desperation level of this empty org.
The recipient of this letter, Doug, was only at Atlanta once in his life for about 3 days. They have been chasing him for YEARS, trying to “recover” him.
They don’t even know his LAST NAME! Yet, still they pursue him all the way to South Dakota. Like he is a “hot prospect” just waiting to get onto the Purif as soon as he discovers it is now being delivered standardly after decades of squirreling… This is what they have been told by L. Ron Hubbard to think, so they will continue to waste money on snailmail letters until they have spent their last 31 cents.
Doug also reports they no longer include the standard self addressed postage-paid envelope. Apparently they can no longer afford those.
Clearly, it is even LESS remunerative to try to get new people into the org than “recover” those who have been there before, no matter how little time they spent or how long ago it was.
Hardly a big surprise given the state of the PR of scientology these days. Just Google any term related to scientology and it is not good. Any new person is going to google before handing over their hard earned cash. They can only hope that “old-timers” might already be indoctrinated into the idea that anything negative is just psych-influenced entheta.
But this theory is not working out either. But they just keep doing it. The last person in the building before the lights go out for the last time will be writing useless letters because “Ron says this is how you make money.”
Below you can see the reality of the “10X expansion” — four cars in the parking lot and the unused yellow VM van in the background. An “ideal org” planted in the middle of nowhere with no public and even less interest. Unless they try to flag down passing cars they never come in contact with “raw meat”.
No wonder they resort to “letter writing” telling people who are not interested that people are “winning like mad now.”
Is Atlanta Atlantis searchers will look for in the future? Something happened there before it went down. The question people ask is why a such a high powered civilisations goes down. The mix of people and steroids is a red flagat the judges.
NEWSFLASH!
Atlanta Ideal Org IS DEAD
As in VACANT
EMPTY
NO BODIES IN THE SHOP
Mike, check out the latest blog from the STAAD website. We who criticize Scientology are now the same as KKK types and other forms of human trash. Features a photo of a Klansman dressed up in robes. Absolutely appalling journalism.
https://www.standleague.org/blog/the-type-that-rages-against-scientology.html#
Does Cruise, Travolta or ANY big whales EVER see an ideal org?
I suspect that if anyone important every visited, Miscavige and management would make sure that the org put on a dog-and-pony-show in their Potemkin Village, and fill it up with as many people as possible. Come to think of it, bigwigs like that are mostly there during the major events when much of the org’s “field” including people who may show up only a couple of times a year – many actually UTR – will be there.
There are actually some accounts of people who were significant donors but apparently not quite important enough to have the red carpet and dancing bears rolled out for them – and certainly none of the well-known names – who did go around and visit orgs, and became disaffected after they saw the actual state of things.
Mike they “yanked” more then just a ribbon. They “yanked” the members wallets too. 10x’s over
I live in Atlanta. Scientologist hangout at the MARTA stations off to the corner. I am not sure if they ever get anyone who is “curious” to intentionally miss the train to hear about Scientology, but I kind of doubt it. In early May, I had to take MARTA down to the Fulton County courthouse for jury duty for 3 days in a row. Each morning on the train at 7:20am, there were 3 Scientologist tucked into a far corner of the Dunwoody station with posters showing Scientology propaganda. They were so far off the beaten path, I am not sure anyone in that station could see them. If this is how they try to get raw meat in the door, it’s no wonder they are chasing Doug P. To South Dakota!
This is just pathetic. Atlanta is one of the largest cities in the US- and there are four cars in the lot? When I was in DC, there were only 3 cars (and the requisite VM van). Is there ANY ideal org that has actual people in it??
Atlanta is the 9th largest metro area. In almost all of the rest of the top 10, they’re doing nearly as badly:
1 New York-Newark-Jersey City, NY-NJ-PA
— 1 org, Celebrity center in 8,600 square foot townhouse, Harlem Community Center, 1 mission (NJ)
2 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA
— numerous
3 Chicago-Naperville-Elgin, IL-IN-WI
— 1 org with a long-derelict building they’ve been unable to renovate
4 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX
— 1 org
5 Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land, TX
– 1 mission
6 Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV
– 1 org
7 Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, FL
— 1 org
8 Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD
— 1 org with a long-derelict building they’ve been unable to renovate
9 Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Alpharetta, GA
10 Boston-Cambridge-Newton, MA-NH
— 1 org with a long-derelict building they were unable to renovate, now trying to sell it after buying an office-park type property to use instead, and for years “temporarily” located in rented offices South of the city
This building makes it impossible to hide that nothing is happening. If it was in a busy part of town near public parking garages and shared parking then you’d have to camp out all day to see who came and went, but that big, empty parking lot makes it *ahem* clear. It’s just soooo weird to build something like that for no one.
I just finished a reply to a NY letter reg. ‘Twas fun telling him that I am NOT a hot prospect after 40+ years of silence, that their Cl. V org had NOTHING to offer a Flag-trained Cl. V and ‘clear’, and that DM’s CULT had even less to offer.
AND NY org, historically one of the most active orgs outside of LA, can’t afford BREs either, it seems.(Business Reply Envelopes. that is).
I’m enjoying this right with you, jere 🙂
Get gypped or die trying.
I tried dying once. But I just couldn’t get the hang of it.
I can only imagine what the electric bill is to run the A/C in that HUGE EMPTY building. I guess they could just close off 95% of the building and let mold grow and no one would be the wiser.
Mike refers to postage stamps by saying:
“…so they will continue to waste money on snailmail letters until they have spent their last 31 cents.”
They have been doing this since US postage stamps cost just a few pennies, but obviously you are not in ‘present time’. Postage stamps these days cost 55 cents! Now come up to present time and keep up the good work.
Franked postage, not bulk, costs 50 cents, bulk mail first class rate is .378 cents, so if they still have a postage meter, they can keep the costs down that way.
Well goddamit Valerie, I guess I’m the one who needs to get their ass up to present time. I stand corrected!
I was corrected once. And it hurt like hell!
I think they stopped putting the postage paid return envelope in it because too many people were using it to send things like Aftermath Foundation cards, printouts from Mike’s or Tony’s blogs, or other entheta and the wrong people were accidentally getting exposed to it thinking that someone had *gasp* actually responded to their mail. It’s much more satisfying to send something that they will actually open thinking it’s a response than something that will cost them money because sending them alleged entheta may cause someone to see the light, taping a brick to a postage paid envelope or filling it with pennies only reinforces their opinion that those of us in the outside world are heinous monsters.
When I go into a sauna for weeks at a time, i do not want it ‘delivered standardly ‘. I want it delivered in an exemplary manner. As in don’t steam me until I’m cooked thoroughly, I want to remain raw.
I wonder where Kwame Opeyo comes from? That is not a common Georgian name.
The desperation not only shows, It screams.
Zee Moo, it seems Almavzia Opeyo lives in Atlanta and has a family member Kwame Opeyo. Go figure.
A friend received a similar letter, each one word for word the same 3 times over one month. Words like, did we upset you in any way?
There’s a new brief on how to write these letters it seems.
Warning. Sarcasm and attempted humor follows.
Hey Mike, I don’t know why you doubt that people are “winning like mad” nowadays. Thanks to all the publicity on the Internet from people like Leah Remini, most everyone is now well aware this scam is just bogus and a waste of time. They also know the people involved in running this scam are brutal bullies who will bully you into giving them all your money and all the money you can borrow.
So, as you have pointed out many times, people are staying away from these orgs and missions as much as possible. I would definitely call that “winning like mad” nowadays.
Wouldn’t you?
So all the hassle they gave folks in the Atlanta area getting the place open turns out to have been a colossal waster of everyone’s time.
If it’s that dead, the staff should turn in their stats Weds, take the 4th of July off, and go watch the fireworks with their family and/or friends. It’s not like anyone will notice they’re gone.
Oh, you just reminded me! Fourth of July for staff is just another Thursday at 2 O’clock for the staff this year. I almost feel sorry for them. Almost.
I drive by this Atlanta Scientology building *all* the time — and at all hours of the day — and the parking lot is *always* vacant. It turkey lives up to its status as an Ideal Morgue.
I wonder how much money is spent on the mortgage, property taxes, insurance and utilities to keep the coffin lid open on this place. And WHO are the fools shelling out the money? 🤣🤪🍿🤡
I once drove thru the parking lot (it goes all the way around the back) to see if anyone was there, and some Sea Org guy came out and was watching me very closely. I think they are so shocked to see anyone pull in that they think it must be SPs. It’s sure not anyone new.
Check out the Google reviews for the place. The cult members don’t even bother to create fake accounts any more. I guess since Google now requires a phone number it’s too much hassle. Pretty much every 5-star reviewer has given several other cult facilities 5-star reviews.
Whack Jobs, there is no mortgage nor property taxes to pay.
They are their own worst enemy. I worker for a scientologist in DFW, someone I understand is very high up in scientology. Originally, I had no opinion about scientology. However, experiencing the way they work will drive anyone away. They are their own worst enemy.
Hey Bryan! Keep doing what you’re doing!
Thanks Dude! I appreciate the support.
Wow. They don’t even have his last name? No postage paid return envelope? 4 cars in the parking lot. Pretty good picture of what is happening in there ay? Of course you know that when they are being attacked it means they are succeeding. That’s what they tell staff. But when their stats are down because of the “attacks” it’s the staff member who is out ethics, low toned and suppressive causing the down stats. Cognitive dissonance.
Four cars in the parking lot??? Holy shit! That’s a new record!!! I wonder how long it will be before they have 5 cars in the parking lot! We can only wonder…
5 cars would be a 25% INCREASE! Straight up and vertical, daggumit.
The old time Scns are dying out and the staff is young, either second or third gens or people are imported from Europe and they come just cuz they want to get into the US. Little do they know what they are actually getting themselves into. The young people don’t have a long enough track period with Scn to even know what the tech is, so KSW “Having the technology” is not in at all. Whatever they are told is Scn is what they think Scn is. They don’t have any experience of reading references before DM took over in 1986. So how can they even know if anything has been changed? They can’t. And saying “things are better since GAT II” is just regurgitating what they’ve been told. They are too young to know how “things were” before 1986 takeover and how things are now. They are too young to know how things were before GAT II vs how they are now. They just spout what has been fed to them by DM and his regime.
Now we get to see an example of what the vaunted Central Files are actually used for!
Ummmmm….toilet paper?
Maybe it was the rain that kept them all away?
Yeah, yeah, dats the ticket! Old
Nah, it was the sun.
Nah, it was he Moon.
Well it was either the sun, or the rain, or the clouds, or the sky, or any number of these damn suppressive weather events.
No. No. No.
It is not the rain or the sun that keeps people away. It is all the great work done by people like Mike and Leah over the years and the “snowball effect” which has been causing more and more people to come forward all the time – people like Valerie Haney! Hoo rah for Valerie Haney! I hope she gets many millions in compensation for all the torture and horror she endured.
These courageous people are real heroes because they risked their own lives and limbs to warn other potential victims exactly how dangerous and life-destroying this scam truly is. In many cases, as a result of coming forward, they then suffered even more horror as they were relentlessly stalked by these monsters.
But, the result is that now it seems people are staying away in droves.
Congratulations and much praise to all the heroic and courageous people who have come forward to speak out. In almost all cases, these people are motivated by a loving concern for their fellow human beings.
They deserve our thanks and our praise and they also deserve to be well compensated for all the pain and suffering they have endured.
Change the date and address on the form letter and scribble a signature at the bottom and the reg might be able to crank out a hundred Letters Out per day. Stats are up!
Mail merge is your friend and your curse. With a nice list of addresses you can crank out thousands of letter each day. Boy will your stats boom. Then they’ll crash like 737 Max, because that come on is off putting.
July 2, 2019
Zee M.
c/o Mike Rinder’s WordPress Blog
Dear Zee:
Greetings from Teegeeack! We’ve never met and I know basically nothing about you. But I would love to know what has caused this rift between us. The tech is so much better after Captain Miscavige restored it that people are going mad right now.
What do we need to do to get money from you again?
Sincerely,
Pedrito M.
Registration Schlepper
Atlanta Ideal Org & Arslycus
Expanding 10X Across Our Zone!
Fabulous outflow, Pedrito. Such ARC! 🙂
Zee Moo – The days of a Letter Registrar writing “friendly and personal” letters to people are history. In the mid 1970’s I worked for an org for six months and got invited to two or three letter writing parties. Back then the
letters and the address on the envelope were handwritten. I tried to keep my letters friendly and personal. lol
Hubbard did say “Quantity not quality determines the result of bulk mail.”
Richard, letters to individuals are not Bulk Mail in scamology. And you were not writing what Hubtard considered a Letter that could be counted on the stats. If Hubtard had known what you were doing he would have declared you a criminal and kicked you out of the church.
Nice guy huh?
If they only have 3 cars they will have achieved ideal seize. One floor per dupe!
I wonder if they stopped including postage paid envelopes in ALL their junkmail. I used to fill them with pennies, pour a shit-ton of glitter in there, and include some Aftermath cards. Glitter gets on EVERYTHING.
I suspect that responses like that, as much as cost, would be the reason for the return envelopes no longer being included.
I wonder if they stopped including postage paid envelopes in ALL their junkmail.”
That’s a major error IMO. For all the money and natural resources they waste printing tons of useless tripe, dropping the return PP envelope strikes me as a major stupidity. The chances of someone in SD from a casual visit years ago responding to their letter are pretty nil, and no prepaid envelope insures it.
Yup! no BRE means long comm lag as I search up an envelope, then stamp, then address the thing and put it out for the postman.
You are correct. I don’t even have any stamps at my house. With online billpay and most things being paperless, the only mail I send is the stuff from the office.
I think if I hadn’t (gloriously) managed to convince them to blacklist me, I would not be willing to waste my postage on answering them and would mark the envelope “RETURN TO STALKER” (like I have done a few dozen times actually) rather than allow it in my house.
Gone with the wind.
Frankly, Dave, I don’t give a damn.
You know that hurts his feelings, don’t you. You really want to see him cry?
He won’t cry; he’ll think about it tomorrow.
OSD:
“You know that hurts his feelings, don’t you. You really want to see him cry?”
Yeah, I WOULD. Would serve the twerp right, IMO.
I have other things that I can use.
Fiddledeedee!
Would someone who knows how to do this please photoshop a picture of Miscavige as Scarlett O’Hara, a basket of turnips on one arm, scavenging for vegetables in the garden of Twelve Oaks, swearing with raised fist, “…AS GOD IS MY WITNESS, I WILL NEVER BE HUNGRY AGAIN!” and send ti to Atlanta Ideal Org. Please? 🙂
Not *quite* what you suggested, but maybe of some use:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/marksshoops/26625785865/in/photolist-FUUXbZ-FYVizk-FyNK8s-rhdyqh-oEYqCm-FSC8Pj-HvvXog-FYpBHA-FYVn6t-GyQ7vx-FSwHF5-GgNiwy-GoUNTs-RBaE3A-KE24xJ
https://www.flickr.com/photos/marksshoops/32559442982/in/photolist-FUUXbZ-FYVizk-FyNK8s-rhdyqh-oEYqCm-FSC8Pj-HvvXog-FYpBHA-FYVn6t-GyQ7vx-FSwHF5-GgNiwy-GoUNTs-RBaE3A-KE24xJ
https://www.flickr.com/photos/marksshoops/26242037785/in/photolist-FUUXbZ-FYVizk-FyNK8s-rhdyqh-oEYqCm-FSC8Pj-HvvXog-FYpBHA-FYVn6t-GyQ7vx-FSwHF5-GgNiwy-GoUNTs-RBaE3A-KE24xJ
True, but HILARIOUS, Dr! Thank you 🙂
No problem! 😉
How much money and time was wasted setting up that edifice to nowhere. The Bridge To Total Oblivion is a testament to Hubbard’s lies.
The level of indoctrination of this cult has made staff, like the one who wrote the letter, to remain loyal to the way scientology operates since its inception: lie, lie, lie to staff and public alike…as long as money is being made it does not matter who gets hurt.
miscavige, as the sociopath, narcissist and coward he is, intentionally selects this far away locations so the orgs will pretend to expand like never before in history, while in fact he knows they will die. There is no Int Management and he is not going to bother to help anyone.
He has the building, he has the money so, why bother about decent people?
Well, karma, eventually, will give him an answer.
I wonder if all these buildings they buy are just sacrificial lambs, so to speak.
Wouldn’t it be something if the monster knew all along that those buildings will just get abandoned. They will never be sold – unless the FBI forces their sale to compensate victims. But what if the buildings themselves do not play any part in his future plans? I wonder if they were only purchased to try and fool the IRS but there is no reason for those buildings to ever be used for any other purpose. Wouldn’t that be a wonderful footnote to add to then end play of this scam?
“While the problem of homelessness rages across America, the monster spent close to a billion dollars and these big empty building just stood idly by while homeless people died from exposure and it was all done just to service the little man’s big ego?
Skyler, that’s sadly close to the truth, most of the buildings will eventually have to be sold for pennies on the dollar compared to what was paid for and then put into them. Especially now they’re buying real white elephant properties that no one else wants, like the ugly monstrosity in Ventura, and then putting huge amounts into extravagant and specialized renovations that no future occupant would have any use for.
It’s indeed about spending – virtually burning – money to keep up Miscavige’s prestige based on the illusion of “expansion,” and keep the IRS at bay. It’s not about building a real estate empire, and most of the money spent has indeed been sacrificed.
Skyler f course he knows that the buildings would go unused. He didn’t have them bought to be used.
The buildings would go unused and would always be unused and empty?
From the day they are bought until their last days, they are always empty and are never used for any good purpose?
Wouldn’t that be some kind of grounds to shut down this entire scam?
It seems to me like that should be some kind of grounds to shut down this scam and to seize all these buildings.
Skyler, I hear you but unfortunately neither the federal government nor any state government is concerned with the fact that big newly renovated and expensively refurnished churches in this country sit empty. That their purchase, renovation and refurbishment were funded by donations to those churches is not a law enforcement issue because donating to one’s church so that one’s church can renovate or expand its quarters is not illegal! That the Church of Scientology is plainly NOT expanding and its membership is in fact rapidly SHRINKING does not make this a law enforcement matter. That Co$ members BELIEVE (with no evidence) that larger more luxurious quarters are needed to “handle” what WILL be the “floods” of people flooding into Scientology once an “Ideal Orgs” are put there, is beyond dumb on their part and so long as Miscavige actually BUYS enough, renovates enough, etc., to justify the money he’s taking in from the Sheeple, and so long as enough of the money being donated for that purpose and is used for that purpose, no laws are broken and the government could not care less about Co$’s empty churches.
Skyler, I think that the IRS has to give them enough rope – and time – to hang themselves. Unfortunately it’s going to take a while longer to establish a track record of failure, and actual contraction, before they can make a case that will stick. In the meantime Miscavige is getting away with a scam that is burning up huge amounts of money, while members go bankrupt and even lose their own homes.
Ultimately, I expect we will see some really bizarre things, including Scientology’s lawyers arguing that maintaining large empty buildings in expectation of a “boom” that has never yet come, is a fundamental tenet of their faith. But I think the IRS, and probably other government agencies, are also waiting for the day when Scientology is so weakened that it can’t vigorously resist and even counter-attack, the way it has in the past such as when it subdued the IRS, and it will start to lose battles.
Skyler. if you are an American you REALLY need to study our Constitution. No such powers exist nor ever should exist with gov’t. What the gov SHOULD do is enforce existing laws regarding non-profit status. THAT would force the CoS to pay property taxes on those expensive properties. THAT would cripple them.
Look at that beautiful building. So sad. Letter regges – sigh – going on hoping with all their might that they can write something pithy that might actually get a response from someone, so they can take a win and prove to themselves that “outflow” actually really does “equal inflow.”
I wonder how long it will take for the remaining staff and members to realize the problem lies from within their “church” not from without.
Someday that beautiful building will make a fine history museum. Let’s hope it doesn’t take too long.
And is ain’t the prices nor the DM “squirrel tek”. It is the ENTIRE subject. In Georgia there is an Indie AO that delivers the entire “Bridge to nowhere” Using El Con tek at a tiny fraction of the price and it also empty…
You can’t give this shit away!
Scribe, I just realized that one CAN give away normal shit as it has positive uses in agriculture. But scamology shit is thoroughly toxic and less than useless. 🙂
Just use a huge shovel. That should do it.
Yup, the ‘tech’ can’t even achieve the results a placebo can. If it could, anyone who wanted to make a buck could grab a tattered copy of DMSMH off of eBay for pennies or out of a dumpster at their local library, hang out a shingle and start making ‘clears’. Even if they were to achieve the results a placebo can they would make a handsome income. But they can’t. This con has been going since 1950 with zero results and is still doing quite well although slowing by all accounts.
No results for anyone ever doesn’t explain why thousands of people stayed in for years. I appreciate the sentiment but it’s unrealistic.
That is an illogical statement Richard. That many people, most who were young and inexperienced in life were scammed for years doesn’t suggest any real results either.
Scientific testing would verify. Or people presenting real EVIDENCE. Which has NEVER happened in the ENTIRE history of the subject.
No actual deities for anyone EVER doesn’t explain why MILLIONS of people worshiped for THOUSANDS of years.
Stick to the arts. You have NO ability with logic.
I’m sticking with my NO RESULTS comment. That doesn’t mean that those of us who were in didn’t have any “wins” and feel euphoric at times. Just sticking with DMSMH for now, I’m pointing out that not one of Man’s ills have been cured in anyone by applying dianetics processes. NONE of the claims in DMSMH have ever been observed in humans. Beyond that, as dianetics floundered (because it didn’t work) after it’s very brief splash in 50/51 and then scientology came along to bolster the failing movement (scam) there have been no ‘clears’, no ‘theta clears’, no ‘clear theta clears’, no ‘OTs’, no one can operate exterior to their body with full perception, there is no ‘whole track’ recall, no homo-novis, no super human abilities, no nothing.
People can feel euphoric after tying something new and want to feel that way again and again. They will do almost anything to achieve that good feeling again. They will do this until they finally wake up and realize they have been duped into a false path or just continue hoping beyond hope that they have not made a mistake despite what is right in front of their eyes. ‘Wogs’ call this addiction.
There are lots of things to try out in the world that will produce euphoria and “wins” that can easily be had without belonging to a cult that constantly recycles you back to the reg for more money or applies ‘Fair Game’ psycho terrorism tactics to you if you happen to disagree with them and voice your opinion about it.
Richard, in reality and in history there are many examples of people sticking through things that produced no results, often even at great cost – like religious movements predicting the imminent end of the world. It’s a logical fallacy (in the general category of false premises, or incredulity) to claim that because something is portrayed as seemingly unlikely, that it can’t be true.
I think it does have to be acknowledged that participants of any such group or cult may have gotten some basic benefits of talk therapy and belonging to a sort of support group – not to mention placebo effects. But that has essentially nothing to do with the “tech,” teachings or whatever.
p.s. By the way, here’s a great site with simple explanations of basic logical fallacies (and, now, cognitive biases as well), including some very handy graphics that I’ve used as handouts with students and at public lectures. This is what Hubbard should have taught instead of artifices such as his twisted supposed “logics,” which are really just indoctrination; it’s telling that he taught none of these essentials of critical analysis in supposedly teaching people how to think and observe – because he relied on using the rhetorical tricks that people actually trained in critical thinking would catch on to, in order to direct and control their thinking:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/
I think it does have to be acknowledged that participants of any such group or cult may have gotten some basic benefits of talk therapy and belonging to a sort of support group – not to mention placebo effects. But that has essentially nothing to do with the “tech,” teachings or whatever.
I’d argue both “the tech” and Hub’s sci-fi are purposely built, layered and sequenced to induce placebo effects. And the therapeutic potential of the placebo effect should not be understated. Certainly its value in psychology and medicine is well established.
Whether it’s “real” enough for outsiders is irrelevant.
Who is anyone to argue what’s “real” for an individual whose power of belief liberates him from suicidal ideation?
If someone overcomes trauma, a loss, a phobia, or simply feels more empowered from use of scientology techniques, can you reasonably claim they didn’t benefit?
Are these not in fact the “real results” everyday scientologists experience whilst on their desperate quest for godhood?
That no reliable evidence of results currently exist outside of a participant’s belief is inarguable (scientology is faith-based, afterall).
Yet absence of evidence does not necessarily equal evidence of absence. One can be skeptical without appealing to ignorance. #imho
Has someone ” overcome a trauma ” if the ” method ” he used was purposely designed to fool and demean him AND consistently failed to deliver the tangible,empirical results it promised( dianetics and scientology )? If someone ” gives up suicidal ideation ” as a result of doing scientology or dianetics, has he, in fact, given it up? I would argue that he has not even addressed the issue, but merely been misdirected away from it with disassociative routines, propaganda, and indoctrination. I WAS suicidal before I got into the cult. Scientology merely obscured the core issues and made me more or less emotionally numb. I have dealt with this issue since leaving the cult. Cults and the related issue of behavioral modification have been studied and written about extensively for over 60 years. I would recommend that ex-members of any cult check out that body of information.
“Has someone “overcome a trauma” if the “method” he used was purposely designed to fool and demean him AND consistently failed to deliver the tangible, empirical results it promised?”
All placebos are deceptive. Whether one should be used as treatment is a valid ethical concern; it doesn’t negate the potential value of its effect.
Overcoming trauma is one of the many promised results of scientology. It may well be a false positive (placebo effect) but it is arguably not an unintended consequence.
“If someone gives up suicidal ideation as a result of doing scientology has he, in fact, given it up? I would argue that he has not even addressed the issue, but merely been misdirected away from it with disassociative routines, propaganda, and indoctrination.”
Sure, that’s a decent argument. To assume it is valid in all cases, however, is to conclude an unknown.
I, too, was suicidal pre-scientology. Whilst it was never specifically addressed, the contributing factors were resolved separately and to my satisfaction. One could indeed argue this result came about from misdirection and conditioning and, I admit, I do consider myself lucky the effects have not worn off since. But I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t thankful. There was much that truly sucked about my scientology experience but this was not one of them. This was a “real result” – even if the tools were, in part, illusory.
For me, scientology served a purpose. I would not actively recommend its use, particularly long term. As a therapy, in its current form, scientology is profoundly unethical. But ethics aside, its misdirecting nature doesn’t negate its potential for therapeutic value. Its potency arguably requires it.
“(scientology is faith-based, afterall). ”
WRONG mwestern. Scamology is SPECIFICALLY not faith-based. where did you get that bull shit from?
Self evident. It starts and ends with belief:
1. The hope/expectation of results.
2. Belief in the auditor/supervisor.
3. Belief in Hubbard, his theories, his authority.
4. Belief in the tech’s efficacy.
1 and 2, it should be noted, are what psychologists claim to be the primary healing factors in psychotherapy – the quality of the therapist/patient relationship and the expectation of results.
In the absence of any evidence to support Hub’s claims, a scientologist must rely on faith (aka “certainty”, “knowingness”). External validation, as with other religions, is provided/reinforced by the group. Rather than admit to this and just own their beliefs, scientologists:
a) deny their religiosity by attempting to cloak themselves with the trappings of scientific absolutism – no religious discipline does this.
b) deny the value of logic, evidence and the scientific method as means to establish credibility – no scientific discipline does this.
c) expect to be taken at their word.
Most odd. I would say “unique” but I’m pretty sure Bergian kabbalists are the same. #smh
mwesten, I think the flip side is that “the tech” has been boosted with unstable techniques which also produce dangerous effects that should not be understated.
Some might get better, but others will get worse.
Some might be freed from traumas, but for others they will deepen.
Some might have their sanity saved, but others will go psychotic.
Some might be saved from suicide, but others will be driven to it.
I think Hubbard was fully aware of this, but his cynical calculation was that it was justified in the quest to make “homo novis.” Scientology managed to sweep the problem under the rug for a long time, covering up cases, but starting with some sensational bad outcomes in the 1990s like those of Noah Lottick, Lisa McPherson and Philip Gale, followed by the Elli Perkins case in the early 2000s, I suspect that Miscavige realized the only way to control the problem in the modern media era was to go to the source – and deliver less auditing, and only under the most controlled circumstances possible and to people vetted to not actually be in need of help, in order to minimize incidents.
I think you’re generally right about placebo effects – plus Scientology works as particularly effective social or mind control as well.
“mwesten, I think the flip side is that “the tech” has been boosted with unstable techniques which also produce dangerous effects that should not be understated. Some might get better, but others will get worse…”
Absolutely. It’s such a huge unknown…and thus impossible/illogical to recommend.
“I think Hubbard was fully aware of this, but his cynical calculation was that it was justified in the quest to make ‘homo novis.'”
I think so too. And as his customer base increased, so too the disaffections. New terms had to be introduced to excuse the failures. Disconnection was almost inevitable. There’s nothing that reduces a placebo’s potency more than the revelation it’s actually just worthless crap. “[O]ne must be able to detect and weed out so they don’t contaminate…” Those dissatisfied were disposed of quietly and without sorrow. The indignant followed soonafter.
I suspect that Miscavige realized the only way to control the problem in the modern media era was to go to the source – and deliver less auditing, and only under the most controlled circumstances possible and to people vetted to not actually be in need of help, in order to minimize incidents.
This would suggest a recognition of Hubbard’s fallibility…or the incompetence of auditors under his stewardship. Or both. Not a great advert, either way.
The fact that only higher orgs seem remotely risk averse is arguably an admission of the possible effects of long-term participation. That they’re still happy to tromp hard on a complete stranger’s ruin before sending them spinning out onto the street suggests they really don’t give a crap about the average newbie. They’re playing the odds. They know the risks are far greater the higher up you go. Again, not a great advert.
Hubbard’s state of mind just prior to his death is arguably the worst advert of all.
Richard,
If you haven’t already, check out Margaret Singer’s 6 Conditions For Thought Reform and Robert Jay Lifton’s 8 Criteria For Thought Reform.
Plug dianetics and scientology into those assessment models; it’s an interesting and enlightening exercise.
Yes, people can be induced to have euphoric experiences; they can be fooled, manipulated, and gaslighted, too…and swear that all of that has ” produced wins ” for them. Depressing, but true…
Cheers😎
You’ve peaked my curiosity, Wynski. I’d like to hear more about this Indie AO if you’re so inclined. thanks
bix, I think if you search “Georgia scientology independent” it will be at the top of your search results.
Okay; thanks
I checked it out. Kool-Aid is being swilled freely there. Apparently things were all rainbows & unicorns before ’82 when ‘clears’ and ‘OTs’ were being made at an astonishing rate. Right……………………. Once the Kool-Aid colored glasses come off, these folks might find out that there is no such thing as ‘clear’ and ‘OT’. Hubbard was a con artist of the highest order and nothing more.
Yes Ms B. These are some of the original LSD sponges that were still high when they ran into El Tard Tek in the early ’70’s. They are hoping to relive those semi-stoned days…
An Indian? No? Oh, my bad. It is indie.
An indie is a Scientologist without teeth.