Another article from Brian Lambert. While I am so busy working on Season 2 I appreciate those who forward me relevant, on topic articles to publish. It is a day I do not have to write something myself. (Thanks especially to Regraded Being and Terra Cognita who have been stallwarts in this regard). I try not to use too many of them in a row, but I feel it is better for continuity to have something every day if possible. Though there may be days in the upcoming weeks where it just isn’t possible.
Battlefields: Scientologists vs. Critics; Can Decency Win?
“We are hypnotized by our surroundings and can’t see anything beyond the horizon of our experience”. Sri Yukteswar
What we are experiencing with Scientology is really no different from what happened to Catholicism vs. Luther and all of the other breakaway churches. Back then those factions used to kill and torture each other! Today, being mean, nasty, antagonist and covertly hostile is a STEP UP. Getting a Golden Rod and having goons sift through your garbage beats being boiled in oil fully conscious for disagreeing with holy writ. Calling Ron a Malignant Narcissist is far better than burning down buildings and physically harming Scientologists.
We can talk issues without denigrating each other. That is a decent approach.
Critics react to the diabolical and consider it a civic duty to reveal it.
Scientologist’s think critics are stuck in being negative and do not acknowledge the positive.
This is the present argument.
But a major bump in the road of understanding, between critics and never ins vs Scientologists is the example of Ron himself. Ron always attacked those that were critical of him and Scientology.
When a teacher teaches a positive value in the implementation of cruelty and deceptive psychological war, that student becomes a negative person. Someone who sows darkness. Students mimic their teachers. That’s how they teach. That’s how we learn. It’s impossible to find common ground with someone who has been taught that their opponent is evil. But that’s how Luther thought of the Papacy and how the Papacy thought of Luther. Thus it’s time to boil your opponents. That’s how they did “destroy utterly” in the old world. I’d rather a Golden Rod thank you very much!
The polarization of Good and Bad: Fuel for the argument
An Illustrative Analogy
Jeremy was having a hard time in life financially, and Rufus gave Jeremy $300.00 to help pay for his rent. Jeremy was extremely grateful and concluded that Rufus was a fabulous human being. A year passed by and Jeremy went to get into his brand new car to drive to the beach but found that someone had stolen it. Nobody knew, except Jeremy, that he had a hidden camera aimed at his parking spot. Jeremy looked at the video footage and found that Rufus was the one who had stolen his car.
So which is true:
Rufus is a fabulous human being for helping Jeremy when in need?
Or
Rufus is an unethical, immoral and untrustworthy thief?
The truth is that Rufus is both a fabulous human being and a thief.
The answer to this question is cognitive dissonance and the essence of the argument between Scientologists and critics. One side defaults to the good. And one defaults to the bad. Both are true. The ratio between that good and bad is another story.
A Clarification
First let me say at the outset that spiritual realities are my realities. In being critical of Ron and Scientology I am not making the argument that there are no spiritual verities in life or that Scientology can’t be beneficial in putting us in a position of having basic or even profound spiritual experiences. I have had profound experiences in auditing.
I do not judge Ron and his dogmas because he sought higher spiritual knowledge. He was a defender of our incorporeal nature. He was instrumental in introducing many to a spiritual reality. In my view that is a positive value.
I am in agreement with Ron regarding consciousness being non physical; the maker of perception and things. This is essentially the goal laid out by the rishis in the ancient texts of India; practiced today in hospitals, universities, temples and by countless millions of truth seekers in their own homes.
As Ron said:
“We find Scientology’s earliest certainly known ancestor in the Veda … we can look back across a certain span of time, across a great many minds and into a great many places where man has been able to sit long enough to think, through this old record, and find where it joins up with the present and to what we, in Scientology are rightly indebted. For to say that out of whole cloth and with no background, a Westerner such as myself should suddenly develop all the things you need to know to do the things they were trying to do, is an incredible and unbelievable and untrue statement.”
I also do not mind people being critical of the spiritual side of life, saying it’s all bs. It’s your experience and I honor that, from your view, it is reasonable and logical. I get the argument.
Especially after the betrayal of Ron’s promises of standardly bringing pcs to stable exterior with full perception.
Criticism makes us better people
I have no pathological need to destroy those who do not think like me or who think I’m nuts. On the contrary, life is more colorful and invigoratingly challenging when I’m disagreed with. Ron missed out on the joys and benefits of being challenged because of a flaw in his personality; insecurity.
This flaw could very well be at the heart of Scientology’s terrible PR. I believe strongly that it is.
Instead of learning from the diverse views of others, LRH sought their destruction. He limited his access to greater truth and happiness because of his insecurities. And he suppressed the free flow of information to his students by labeling criticism a satanic cosmic evil. Something to be destroyed for the greater good.
This attitude, learned by his students, is beyond a doubt one of the doctrines Indies and Scientologists MUST purge from their systems of thought and practice.
Attacking critics is the very reason Scientology is despised by all of civilization. You guys gotta dump this piece of shit. You guys gotta let us know, that you know, that it’s down right evil. It’s killing, killed, your PR. Just friggn audit and help people. That’s how you get good PR. Not by making dead agent videos and seeking destruction of critics. Happy people will be your best strategy for Scientology acceptance.
Attacking people will not. It only gives reason and motivation for the critics to fight on.
Ron’s views on critics, and the harming of them, IS the reason for all of these “ASC” sites popping up.
You guys, following Ron’s lead, have single handedly CREATED the situation you feel compelled to battle. Dump that God awful dogma!! We will all be happier. Including you!
The Scientologist!
Through that alone you can change your PR. But first you must dethrone Ron from the altar of make believe to do that. He made his words sacred and enforced his ideological purity. It’s your task to be rude to those words with reason. Use your discriminating intelligence to sort it out. The good from the destructive. That’s how Scientology can gain trust in society.
STOP HARMING FAMILIES AND PEOPLE WITH RON’S PSYCHO BLACK OPS TRAINING OF DEAD AGENTING. YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE A RELIGION, NOT A PARAMILITARY WAR MACHINE.
The philosophy of spiritual liberation and self inquiry must be separated from destroy utterly.
Please….. you’ve got to do it.
Yes, there can be healing good in Scientology. That is not my argument. You know what has to be done. Just do it.
When scientology training worked for me:
When I first started Scientology at the Geltman Mission at 500 West End Ave. in 1970 in Manhattan, I had a major major win (benefit) from the Comm Course.
My mother and I at that time were at logger heads with each other for a few years. She was going through menopause and I was going through puberty during the sixties drug and establishment revolution. What a combo! My mom was really stressed about me, I was 17 and I was in a cultural revolution that denied any value to the older generation. It was so painful for both of us. The arguments were never ending. We seemed to be each other’s enemy.
Then I got a counseling from Helen Geltman who was a Class 8 OT 7. She advised me to go to my mom and ask her this question, “so mom, what bothers you about me right now?” Helen also advised me to just let her talk with no interruption. Just keep in my TRs and consider it a bull bait session; REALLY hear her. My mom talked for an hour. She blew off steam (charge) and that was a major moment for us. Our relationship started healing from that point on. Now, critics can reason,”but any counselor could have advised that.” That is true, but it was the comm course that brought me to this point. I must give credit were credit is due.
If someone would have told me then that L Ron Hubbard was a Malignant Narcissist and that Scientology was dangerous cult I would have thought them wrong and uninformed. Or if I was a true blue Scientologist I would think them an SP.
This side of the argument is Rufus helping out Jeremy in times of need. Rufus is unquestionably a good guy; “obviously”.
This training worked and benefited my family. This Scientology was good.
When scientology auditing worked for me:
Many times in auditing I have gone to work turning my attention within to find basics to problems. When I found those underlying causes I had incredible feelings of release and happiness. It was a full blown realization of some truth, a resolution to a problem; not hypnotism. It was a conscious resolution directly related to getting auditing.
Issues became more understood. Gratitude for Ron and his tech was usually the next step. That praise was sincere and appropriate. With endorphin and dopamine release in my brain occurring as a result of these resolving perceptions, the ‘Rufus is a good guy’ argument becomes entrenched and solidified; it becomes my truth. It becomes THE TRUTH. It becomes an empirical certainty.
Rufus the car thief
I won’t bother you with rehashing the countless horror stories that have directly come from LRH’s mind and writings. But for some reason apologists seem to think that it’s “old news”, “get over it”, “stop being so negative”, “you hate Ron” “you don’t acknowledge the good” ………. etc.
When entrenched ideologues on both sides hate, that is a recipe for more hate.
Fools argue and wise men discuss.
This picture below is evidence that critics and Scientologists can actually be friends. If there ever was an example of a sane Scientologist it is Dani Lemberger. If there was ever an SP warrior critic of Ron and Scientology it’s Tony Ortega.
This picture is the essence of my essay. This is how sanity looks. These are the faces of decency. This is how adults treat each other and resolve differences. The L Ron Hubbard playbook on critics must be purged from your philosophy. Then automatically critics will start to fade from the blogosphere. And then maybe critics and Scientologists can share wine instead of black ops psycho manipulating videos and hatred of all things Scientology.
Seek spiritual liberation and knowledge only with the tech. Make happy people. The rest is bad karma and source of Scientology’s troubles.
The power of prayer
I’m a believer and a knower of God. I pray. Prayer is an electromagnet emanation of the power of goodness. It is quantum activity. It is an OT power. I ask all those who pray to shower the darkness with love and light. Love bomb Marty Rathbun. Love Bomb DM. Love bomb Leah and Mike. Love bomb the entire asylum. Just fill the darkness with light. Your light. Purge all hatred for all souls.
“To love despite all provocations to do otherwise is a sign of true greatness” L Ron Hubbard
Namaste
Brian on the high horse
I see I am a bit late to the party, my analysis in a constitutional framework is as follows: scientology is an oxymoron and as such, it is in fact an oxymoronic practice of an art. Because the expression of art is protected. Example: Science is a protected by the constitution, as such it exists and can only be observed and recorded in an attempt to explain known facts. The expression of these known facts are some form of art – word, physical objects, records, etc.). Because both science and art are protected, the right to bear these things (arts and sciences) would be a more rational interpretation of the ‘right to bear arms’. I hope this doesn’t confuse the issue. It would have saved a great deal of paper had this document been read in this manner.
Skydog, what ARE you talking about? Scamology is not an art. It is a religious cult engaged in criminal activity.
Congratulations and fingers sn toes crossed ss y’all deserve the win! Y’all helped eith healing, education and exposure.
Carry on…..peggy
Congratulations Mike and Leah on the Emmy nomination!
And thanks Brian for a great article!
I think Mike is too modest to say anything. Today the Emmys were announced.
Aftermath was nominated under OUTSTANDING SERIES OR SPECIAL.
Congrats Mike and Leah and your production team. Tells you where Hollywood stands!
Thanks Brian for another great essay. I had similar experiences as you and during the same time period.
Also thanks to Mike for this blog and putting through all the great comments here whether pro, con and indifferent. It’s all good and food for thought.
Mussolini may have done many brutal and tyrannical things; he may have destroyed human freedom in Italy; he may have murdered and tortured citizens whose only crime was to oppose Mussolini; but ‘one had to admit’ one thing about the Dictator: he ‘made the trains run on time.’
(and, for those who like facts: the Italian trains did not run on time. This was a fascist myth told to the people to bolster the fascist state)
It doesn’t surprise me to learn that the train timeliness was a myth. No one individual, not even [insert deity or human name of your choice] can make Italians stop being Italians, or make anything in Italy efficient. They have other priorities.
Simple Logic: The ONLY way to keep your loved ones loyal to the organization is to keep them AWAY FROM YOU……
Life is so short, time passes quickly, and each day brings that heartache of knowing that someone has stolen what belongs to you, seems like the Stockholm Syndrome at it’s best. Keep spoon feeding the rhetoric and keep the Kool Aid flow going, that’s ALL they’ve got to keep them loyal to the organization.
(BalletLady),
I know you are a “Never In”, and as such, I want to acknowledge you for reading, and posting here.
On this blog are people who live in the continual pain of the loss oft their children.
The babies they conceived and bore, the youngsters they provided for, protected, nurtured and taught, their sons and daughter to young adulthood are now people who have been forbidden to talk to them.
For the parents of cult-disconnected children there is no closure.
For them, there are only continual questions, and no answers..
To live this way is to live in a particular type of hell.
Yet they deal with it. And, very well, I would say.
There is much quiet, unspectacular courage displayed by them.
Sure, there will be sarcastic, if humorous posts that yet seethe with the injustice, the seeming finality of it all.
Laughter is a great antidote for pain.
Sometimes there are bursts of pent up rage at the amazing cruelty of it all. Well, this is a safe space for that.
Mostly, though, these parents come here and spontaneously share all the goodness and good will that fill their hearts and minds.
So, to the point: (BalletLady): When you, as a Never In, spontaneously share your kindness,as well as your outrage at the Church of Scientology and your compassion for those parents suffering in this way, you are creating a very positive effect. It may not be always to whom it is being addressed, but make no mistake, you are reaching these people, and it means a lot, that you understand and care.
And I hope you had a nice birthday.
:
Typo City here. You’ll have to fill in the blanks.
Once again someone I don’t personally know has touched my heart. Having worked for Social Services/CPS as one of my past employment, I HAVE seen/witnessed the cruelties of life. What some people are capable of doing to an innocent child, you cant begin to imagine having read some of the abuses to children within “the organization”. .
The pain of being forcibly separated from a child is unimaginable….yet there truly ARE some parents who don’t seem to mind at all that someone ELSE is “raising their child”, i.e. as in foster care, and that the child is a ping pong ball bouncing back & forth between parental custody and court ordered custody. These parents want the child as a trophy, for the monthly check, or because it’s convenient to have them back with the parent.
This is the PERFECT place for parents to VENT about what a so called “belief system” has stolen from them….yes…..stolen from them. One of the greatest fears in a “religion” is the loss on one’s own “eternal soul”……especially in “religions” that drone on a daily basis and spoon feed into someone the “rules and regulations” of getting to ….Heaven???….another life/re-incarnation??? Only WE have the info on…..ridding one’s self of those nasty little Body Thetans…
I WANT those who have had not only their children stolen from them, but their extended families as well to KNOW I do feel their pain as you do. I truly do feel one day justice shall be served….it will take time as it took time to get the “organization” to hook, line & sinker their members into loyalty…..& seemingly brain washing them into turning their backs on their own family.
The “Way To Happiness”….FIGHT FOR YOUR CHILDREN…FIGHT FOR YOUR FAMILY…..DO NOT GIVE UP…….the squeakiest wheels get the MOST attention….. ONE DAY WE SHALL PREVAIL…..GOOD SHALL OVERCOME EVIL!
Thank you dearest friend “Aqua” for the always loving & kind thoughts….together we are one awesome team! Hugs!
To THINK that if it weren’t for beautiful Leah and Mike who knows what goes on at the top level behind those barbed wire razor topped fence….CONGRATS on the Nomination….thank you for informing us Never In’s the ways of CO$,,,,,the walls of Jericho are quaking…..
“…the walls of jericho are quaking…”
You know, I am actually getting this, loudly and clear!y!
David Miscavige,, hold onto your pompadour, pall!
And hugs right back to you, Balletlady..
I can’t wait for those walls to begin to tumble just to see the LOOK on his face……
The “Royal Flush”…..as his Empire circles the toilet for the final time……
Good Riddance to a load of Crap…
Only wish we could all be standing shoulder to should when the walls fall….a round of thunderous applause won’t even have to be asked for!
Love You Aqua! Again Thank You & Congrats to Leah & Mike….the BEST is yet to come on Afatermath #2….THAT should really open some tightly close eyes & MINDS.
I watched Mike’s recommended film last night – I Am – Brian’s message rather reminds me of the feeling I got from watching that, we should deal in positive rather than negative energy. Some people are convinced that scientology is working for them, some of it worked for me, who are we to want to stop this? I agree with Brian that it is their attacking of anyone who dares says anything against scientology which has doomed the current ‘church’.
Beautifully written and communicated. Speaks from the heart and to my heart. We need more compassion, forgiveness and understanding. Blessed are the peace makers. Thank you Brian.
❤️
“I do not judge Ron and his dogmas because he sought higher spiritual knowledge. He was a defender of our incorporeal nature. He was instrumental in introducing many to a spiritual reality. In my view that is a positive value.”
I just don’t buy it. I don’t see Hubbard as anything more than a megalomaniacal con man. A defender of our incorporeal nature? Haven’t all major religious faiths been doing that for thousands of years? It’s nothing new. His only motivation in life, ultimately, was exercising control over others. Didn’t he say as much in his “affirmations” of the late ‘forties? People should be judged by how they walk, not how they talk. Hubbard left a trail of human wreckage behind him and a huge legacy of evil, presently being carried out by Miscavige and his soi disant “church” He never made amends, never said he was sorry for anything. The most telling anecdote about him was when, upon hearing of his gay son’s suicide, the first thing he said was “The fucking idiot! Look what he’s done to me!” And he is lauded as a spiritual being? Give me a break.
I’m still struggling to see just what it is that people have gotten from the “tech” that wasn’t available elsewhere. I’ve seen auditing described as a form of hypnotic mind control, which sounds about right to me. I’m done for now.
Thanks for sharing your views bixntram
bixntram, you’re a Christian, I believe.
Now, if I were not a Christian, and as such had never studied or personally experienced Christianity, and I said to you,
“Oh, Christianity…lets see, they were responsible for the bloody Crusades, and as I understand, for several hundred years of the Inquisition, right? And then, well, there’s Henry the Eighth of England who founded the Church of England. Didn’t he do this just so he could ditch his wife and marry Ann Bolyn? And didn’t he cut off her head when he wanted to get rid of her and marry someone else, and wasn’t he married altogether 6 times altogether with another wife beheaded before his own demise? and then, lets see, there were those Salem Witch trials in Massachusetts back in the day, yes, those Christians who for a hundred years were hanging women suspected of witchcraft, and, hmmm, oh, yes, didn’t the Christian powers that be throw Galileo into prison for insisting that the world was not flat but round, and in present time, Christians, yeah, a bunch of pedophile priests…”
How would you react if I, judged “Christianity” by these events ALONE? With this very, very broad brush?
And, by the way, I love your posts and non of this is being said with rancor. I just like to debate.:)
That was a VERY accurate description of LRH, Bixntram!! Very spot on!
I have refrained myself from commenting on the “LRH’s Affirmations” as the original hand-written ones were court-sealed, and I don’t know for certain that what were leaked out hasn’t been changed or altered in any way. And I don’t like to discuss anything that I hadn’t verified by myself first. A few individuals that I have consulted privately tend to agree that they are authentic, but I just don’t feel comfortable discussing something that I can’t prove. But if there was a way to get our hands on those court-sealed ones, and if they were actually hand-written, proving that LRH wrote them would be piece of cake. And if they are actually authentic, my God, LRH was 100x more insane than anyone has thought before. I believe that anyone with the right connections and resources ought to try to get those original documents. They would be incredibly valuable as information to deprogram others from the cult’s undue influence.
Wonderful post. Thanks very much
That was a wonderfully eloquent post and I appreciated getting a fresh viewpoint. IMHO I don’t personally agree with you about the value of the tech, just because it seems designed like a funnel to get people more and more involved, but I appreciate that you got a lot out of it. You adjusted my thinking on that subject, so thank you. What I would like to know is if you think the “church” will ever give up the black ops and fair gaming. Do you think it will take a new administration for that to happen? I can’t see DM giving up the status quo. I would love to know what motivates that man. Is he a true believer that is just doing what LRH said to do? Or is he so high on power that he can’t see the forest for the trees? Thanks again for your powerful post.
Thank you for your good article, Brian. As always, your viewpoints are insightful.
Personally, for me this is all very simple. Scientology (not just the CofS, but Scientology) IS a cult; period! And I don’t know of any cult that has “good” parts, do you? Scn uses many thought reform strategies that results in an insidiously destructive undue influence on an individual, diminishing his power of choice over data (information), and creating a submissive obedience to an authoritative dogma.
For each “good” part in Scn, we probably have 5-10 bad or wrong parts. Scientology is a crazy entanglement of correct data mixed with faulty or incorrect one which frequently results in a state of blinded belief due to the authoritarian way with which LRH assert his “discoveries”. For an untrained mind (new to philosophy, critical thinking, and mysticism), weakened by losses and conflicts in her/his life, it is very easy to fall prey of LRH’s cultic and delusional ideas. “Wins” with Scn have a very high price to them : you lose yourself in the process. You become weak and dependent on another’s determinism.
It is a mystery to me why would anyone prefer to navigate through a sea of data, while filtering out truth from falsity (and from FANTASY), instead of just going ahead and study PROVEN and workable methods of spiritual enlightenment and/or healing. Methods that do not have strict and authoritarian elements as part of their application.
It is just IMPOSSIBLE that a Scientologist who had honestly studied and APPLIED to themselves other methods of healing and philosophies, continue to prefer Scn over those other methods and/or philosophies. That’s just not possible. Because by having studied them – he would have arrived to the obvious and inevitable conclusion that LRH was full of shit. That he had actually STOLE most of “his” ideas from ALREADY discoveries principles. But not only stole them, he altered most of them into unworkable and destructive ways.
Almost everything in Scn has the seed of destruction, deceit, and entrapment as part of it. Auditing has it by making an individual DEPENDENT on a machine (the E-meter) to understand and validate the manifestations of his mind, instead of learning to trust his OWN instincts. Auditing has that seed of destruction by making it an ORDER and not a willing decision, to confess our “sins”. And I am not talking about a “I am not auditing you” seck check. I am talking about “NORMAL” auditing. Just tell and auditor at ANY auditing that you prefer not to tell him something that has “read” (like a W/H or something) and see if he tells you, “Ah, ok; no problem”. He WON’T! He has been wrongly indoctrinated not to.
Is there anyone to tell me that it is something “wise” to talk with a total stranger about our most intimate details? I mean, is that even sensible? LRH sold us this STUPID (and clever) idea that in order to have wins, no withhold must be present. Let me see if I got this straight : for CENTURIES, people have been practicing all kinds of philosophies and methods of healing NONE of which have as a prerequisite the confession of past “sins”, and they have been WINNING with such methods and philosophies ALL the time. I can quote hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of such examples as anecdotal evidence, which anyway, is the ONLY evidence that Scn has.
I DON’T mind the subject of confession as part of a healing process when it is WILLING and NEEDED, and it is administered by someone who has EARNED our trust (and not by just any fucking asshole who holds a “auditor” certificate. A certificate means NOTHING at all; absolutely nothing.
And what about the FORCED word clearing, which is nothing more than a method to FORCE LRH’s beliefs on us. A method to push “Standard Tech”, or better call it, “LRH’s delusions? I mean, it was made a fucking crime not to clear ALL the definitions of a word!!! How stupid and crazy is that?
What about the forced schedules? One is not free to decide when do we want to improve or even if we DON’T want to improve at all.
What about having to pay (EVEN under LRH) thousands of dollars to get a product that will NEVER be delivered as advertised. More than $200,000 and more than 500-600 hours to get a result than can be gotten with 25-80 hours of EFT (“Emotional Freedom Technique”), just to give ONE example of an alternative method of healing. Gee, I have produced more realizations and wins in 1-2 hours of a professionally done astrological reading, than a PC has gotten in several intensives. I have found and handled their life’s ruin” with a fucking astrological reading, for Chris’s sakes!!! A fucking reading which most people considers as silly thing to seek.
What about the policy WRITTEN by LRH where he wrote that if the HCO had declared someone an SP, and one refused to disconnect from that person, one would then be guilty of a suppressive act with all its consequences? Let’s assume that by an “SP” we don’t mean a “critic of Scientology” (which IS actually what LRH meant). Let’s just assume that this “SP” is a really bad person. Let’s assume that such a person is your long friend who is walking now down a destructive path. And let’s also assume, that as a friend, one wants to help him come to senses. But the policy in Scn is clear; if he was “demonstrated” to be an “SP”, and you don’t disconnect, one is guilty of a suppressive act. It doesn’t really matter if one is – as the Scientologists call it – PTS or not to such person; one STILL have to disconnect according to LRH, because we wouldn’t then have case gain.
Please understand that he isn’t giving us a choice; he is not saying, “Look, I think that such a connection can be harmful for you, and can make you lose your wins. It is your decision, but I would RECOMMEND that you disconnect from such person”. He is not giving us a choice.
Let’s assume for the purpose of discussion, that administratively speaking, this person connected with this “SP” can become a legal risk due to the known behavior of a PTS. You know, he can become upset and try to blame the church and sue them, that kind of thing. Well, the org can tell the person that as long as such connection exist they won’t be able to audit him/her for purely technical reasons. Even that would be very silly, but at least it doesn’t sound so authoritarian and arbitrary. But that wasn’t what LRH wrote.
What about the data about the ONLY reason someone leaves Scn is due to overts and withholds? Yes, I know (this is for you, “KSWs”) that LRH wrote about other possible reasons for a blow, like Out-Int phenomena, M/Us, “bad auditing” and other reasons as listed in the HCOBs on the subject. But, but if those other reasons have been looked at and were not present, then a departure from Scn = OVERTS and Withholds as far as LRH is concerned. This is not DM and his “alterations” of the tech. This is LRH HIMSELF.
What about harassing and criticizing the people who decide to experience with alternative versions of the tech on their own, like the so called, “splinter groups”? I don’t see psychologists and psychiatrists and other healing practitioners attacking each other alleging that “they are altering the ‘ONLY’ workable tech; the one that is going to ‘save’ humankind”. What I DO see is scientists SHARING their researches and ALLOWING others to try and experiment with alternative methods.
And what I have described in all the above paragraphs if just a tiny little portion of the many of Scn’s though control ideas, methods, and procedures.
Isn’t is obvious that the “tech” is intended as a thought control activity to achieve the delusions of a very sick man? Scn is a cult; it ISN’T a healing method as such. Why does ANYONE wants to ‘save’ the ‘good’ parts of a cult? That’s INSANE to put it mildly.
And please (to WHOEVER this applies), save that bs that Christianity and Jesus Christ is better than Scn. Christianity ( is guilty of more deaths than all wars put together.
As long as we humans keep looking for “gods”, “teachers”, “spiritual leaders” and the like, and be willing to surrender our power of choice over data, self-determinism, self-confidence, self-esteem, and critical thinking to ANY being or group or philosophy; we are doomed, IMHO. The ONLY god there is is YOURSELF. The ONLY authority there is is YOURSELF, after you have taken the responsibility to thoroughly analyze ANY concept or principle or truth, by yourself, and had arrived at your OWN independent conclusions about anything. Only then, can we be called a “free human being”.
I say forget about false gods, forget about false prophets, forget about “authorities”, forget about false religions and philosophies, and hold on to to what will get you out of anything any time : your OWN truth. To me, that’s REAL freedom. That conclusion is the “good” part that I took out of Scn, haha. The rest of it (Scn) is garbage; can’t even be eaten, 🙂
Quite correct Thetaclear. This is why when pressed into a corner where they cannot run and are made to answer, a scientologist CANNOT show that the tech works or ever worked (accomplished what Hubbard said it would). They can only point to “wins” and other bullshit. Or, a SUPER tiny part of what Hubbard claimed for a minor action preformed.
“Quite correct Thetaclear. This is why when pressed into a corner where they cannot run and are made to answer, a scientologist CANNOT show that the tech works or ever worked (accomplished what Hubbard said it would). They can only point to ‘wins’ and other bullshit. Or, a SUPER tiny part of what Hubbard claimed for a minor action preformed.”
Exactly so, Wynski. I am good friends with a few Scientologists who are KSW followers or LRH sympathizers. And it gets me really sad to see most of them losing in life, full of unresolved problems and stuck at self-sabotaging patterns of behavior that they have not been able to recognize with their application of Scn to their lives. I am talking of individuals who are already “Clear” and even “OTs”, and not from the DM’s reign, but old-timers. I see them manifesting so many things that the Scn Grades and/or the OT levels were supposed to handle, only they DIDN’T (Because they CAN’T).
Ad it really breaks my heart to see them failing in life while eagerly waiting for the next Bridge step (or repair action) that will get them winning again.
The way that I present myself at blogs is VERY different to the way I relate with others on a one-to-one basis in person. At the blogs I am an angered Aries, haha (My Ascendant) trying to destroy Scn and LRH. But in person I am a Pisces moon who has a very difficult time trying to force my views on my friends. I rather let them be, and patiently wait for the right time to say the right thing, as I want it to be their OWN realization brought about by their OWN inspection of the data available.
One would thought that I don’t have Scientologists friends, haha, but that’s not the case. We just agree to disagree on Scn, and we just talk about their wins. I basically ack them.
But I have seen a lot of pain and frustrating brought about by their connection with Scn. And behaving as an “angered Aries” is my way to shake others a little bit, and jolt them into at least explaining how it is that they are right about Scn. Then I pick up the outpoints in their thinking and throw it back at them, 🙂
Scn was never a workable thing, Wynski. We just WANTED very much for it to work, and hoped that one day the dream of OT finally knocked on our doors. For many of us, it just represented feeling happy and in total control of our lives. “Exteriorization” and “Past life recall” was a bonus. But Scn tech does not provide a better control of life, but just the opposite; it is a dwindling spiral of less and less control, and more and more submission to the delusions of a lunatic.
Wow Theta, you have observed the same things I have in still ins (even old timers in IndieLand). I hope they pull out of it before they die.
“And I don’t know of any cult that has “good” parts, do you?”
My wife brought home a copy of Awake, the Jehova’s Witness mag. She brought it home out of curiosity.
In bed drinking coffee we read a great article. There were quotes from Pliny the Elder, Einstein, Mark Twain and many more. It was an inspiring article.
So I’d say that was a good part. But we also were aware that they were selling an ideology of bigotry and discrimination; the only way; like Scientology.
And an ideology we consider false knowledge. We went past our personal bias and saw an article that was good. If we would have simply hated all Jehova’s Witnesses we wouldn’t have allowed ourselves to see the good parts.
“Lead us from the unreal to the real” is my favorite prayer affirmation from the Vedas.
That article was real. But my understanding of the theology of the Jehova’s Witness is that it is an unreality.
Just because I can see the good in something does not mean I am blind to the dangerous and ignorant parts. That is, if I am seeing clearly with no emotional bias.
I applied that same view in this essay. I tried to convey the same impartial attitude towards my Scientology experience.
I’ve tried to separate the helpful from the down right evil. Maybe that’s what happens in a cult; good and bad can become indistinguishable.
Usuallly because the cult leader demonizes the ability for impartial observation. And that is the death of common sense. And why I am an x Scientologist.
Brian,
Exactly so. Your communication (the article) has prospered well as evidenced in the exchanges produced as a result of your article. Your evenhanded response to the polarizing comments suggests that you do not have problems with other’s viewpoints. You did not get upset or defensive of the several blasts from other posts. And, I saw no make-wrong in your responses.
All in all I have to conclude that your ‘wins’ with the lower grades are holding up well, and are stable, and are observable to anyone wishing to LOOK.
Admirable indeed.
I never finished my grades. I went from grade one or two to OT3. Lol.
I paid .35 cents for OT3. All original LRH handwritten. I paid for the cost of Charlie Chan copies.
What I have learned of tolerance and respect I learned from my teacher, Christ, Buddha and Krishna and all of the sages I have studied.
It is now not their knowledge anymore. It is mine.
Fantastic! You are one clean individual.
“Just because I can see the good in something does not mean I am blind to the dangerous and ignorant parts.”
Well, what do you know.. Someone who can think!
Beautiful, Brian.
“We went past our personal bias and saw an article that was good. If we would have simply hated all Jehova’s Witnesses we wouldn’t have allowed ourselves to see the good parts.”
Thanks for your reply, Brian. A few clarifications just in case we have misunderstood each other, and also so you and others here can understand better where I am coming from 🙂
1. I have probably read/study (and applied many of that) perhaps 85-90% of all of Scn. All the books (2-3x each one), all the SHSBC tapes (many of them 3-4x), the class 8 lectures (the original ones, unedited), the Expanded DNs lectures, all of LRH’s written C/Ses (except about the LS), the “Psychotic research C/Ses that led to the LS, all the Tech Vols, most of the OECs, all HCOBs about the grades, all HCOBs about all levels of C/Sing including the class 8 materials, all of NOTs and Solo-NOTs, all HCOBs about Power processing and its repair, all HCOBs about R6EW, all HCOBs about the “Clearing Course”, everything about OT I, II and III and all original OT levels, and most materials on the Ls. I would say that that’s quite a LOT of Scn.
Now, I only wrote the above list just so you now that I wasn’t an amateur Scientologist in any way, shape or form. I know my stuff. I spent several years on staff and have even had my experience in the SO. I have probably audited more than 5,000 hrs of Bk-1 alone, the same amount of hours or even more, of Scn processes as repair actions, hundreds of hours on Ethics cycles on others including PTS handlings, hundreds of hours on word clearing others. And I personally have received quite a lot of processing myself. Most of what I studied from Scn, I did it as a research without the interference of any course sup, as I found most of them lacking in intelligence, and modesty apart, I am a pretty fucking smart individual. I was always ahead of all of them.
So Brian, when I talk about anything, I talk from AMPLE experience on the subjects that I discuss. This is not to be interpreted that I am an “authority” regarding Scn or on ANYTHING for that matter; but what I am trying to say is that I PRETTY much understand Scn better that most Scientologists do.
And second clarification :
2. I don’t have “personal bias” about Scn. What I DO have is the enough experience and training so as to be able to make a PROFESSIONAL evaluation of it. Don’t confuse bias with professionalism and actual knowledge.
Having made those two points clear enough, let’s proceed to comment on your reply. When you and your wife decided to read that article, you BOTH were doing it from a viewpoint of someone who :
A. Had ALREADY rid theselves from Scn as a cult.
B. Had already studied many different methods of spiritual healing and/or enlightenment, and many different philosophies. So you both were well equipped to sort out the truth from the falsity, the pro-survival from the destructive.
In other words, you both were able to keep an exterior viewpoint and emotional detachment from that magazine. Neither of you were looking for answers in such magazine. Neither of you were trying to handle a situation in your lives by reading that magazine. You were just curious and WELL AWARE that you were reading the literature of a cult. So of course, that not having any “personal bias” about it, was as easy as eating a cake, because neither of you were emotionally involved with such a magazine.
Now Brian, put yourself now in the shoes of someone who A) is looking for answers, B) Doesn’t know much about spirituality and healing, and 3) Hasn’t heard about Scn before. What EXACTLY would you do/say if such an individual asked you for advice regarding whether he should study Scn or study something else? Please, answer this question directly and conclusively. I won’t make any comments about your answer. I will accept anything you say. I am just curious to know your answer to that.
” ‘Lead us from the unreal to the real’ is my favorite prayer affirmation from the Vedas.
That article was real. But my understanding of the theology of the Jehova’s Witness is that it is an unreality.”
“Just because I can see the good in something does not mean I am blind to the dangerous and ignorant parts. That is, if I am seeing clearly with no emotional bias.”
I TOTALLY agree with that. That was never my point to begin with. My point was and STILL is, Brian, that we are responsible for the welfare and mental sanity of others. And if we KNOW that most of Scn is destructive (which is a FACT, and not my opinion), then, aren’t we expected to protect others from getting involved in something that might harm them? You know as well as I do, that anyone not properly trained in critical thinking and philosophy/mysticism, and who is searching for correct answers to his/her problems in life, is liable to get badly hurt by his involvement with Scn. So if I get in agreement with you that “Scn has good parts” (which can inferred that should be “saved”), I would be guilty of promoting (in a sense, at least) some activity which is incredible destructive. And what does that make me?
It DOESN’T matter one bit, Brian whether Scn has any “good” parts of not. It just doesn’t matter. Almost everything in life (even the most psychotic criminals) has “good” parts. What do we do with a psychotic criminal? Do we put him away to save others, or do we start analyzing his “good” parts to see if he “helped” a few (or several) individuals on his life that would make it less “bad” having killed several individuals, and therefore perhaps he could be jailed “part-time”? That would be nonsense, wouldn’t it? Well, it is the EXACT same case with Scn. We are expected to protect others from it, not to “see its ‘good’ parts”.
It is all well to talk about forgiveness and “let’s all hold our hands”, but in the end what REALLY matters is your responsibility for others who have been harmed or who could be harmed by the misguided and delusional. Dani Lamberg might be (actually he IS) a very nice and gentle individual, but is he safe? Is he? My opinion is that he is not. He might not agree with it, but I don’t handle my life based on what others might believe or not. I do what I feel is the right thing to do for them even if they don’t see it that way in the beginning. Eventually, they will. That has been my experience so far.
So you continue to play your Buddha role (I know you are honest an a DAMN good and gentle individual), and I will continue to play the “Heavy critic” role. How’s that? 🙂
“What EXACTLY would you do/say if such an individual asked you for advice regarding whether he should study Scn or study something else? Please, answer this question directly and conclusively.”
I’d tell them to avoid Scientology. That it is a dangerous cult whose teacher was a Malignant Narcissist.
I tell them that the man who claimed knowledge of the mind sought suicide to free space aliens by electrocution.
I’d tell them that the OT levels are a delusion from a madman.
I’d tell them that Ron’s hero was Crowley, a man who I consider despicable; the philosophy of selfish ego.
I’d tell them that L Ron Hubbard was an intellectual coward who feared being seen and criticized.
In my essay I wrote,”but the ratio between that good and bad is another story.”
My essay did not address, what I perceive as the ratio between that good and bad.
I just conveyed my experience. It was pretty much the most positive I’ve ever written on the subject over the years of deconstructing Hubbard.
I think you’ve read most of my essays here on Mike’s right? If not I’ll send you links. I’ve been pretty brutal in my take down of Ron and the tech.
In this essay I wanted to broaden my view and make a space for all those folks that did get something from it.
I think it’s extremely important to differentiate between the good and the bad. It took me some years to sort things out.
I did not get all of the training and auditing that you did. Your experience is very different from mine and no doubt more informed.
Again, to be clear, my seeing the positive does not override my view of Ron’s depraved sicko doctrines.
Have you read my other essays Theta Clear?
And regarding Dani:
The reason I considered him sane was because we had an exchange here on Mike’s blog awhile back.
He was promoting his center and some students were promoting the wins they were having on the OT levels.
Well, I just started in with criticisms that you’d probably have enjoyed. I countered their,”I’m having wins on my OT levels” with, “all of you never ins you have to understand that this guy is talking about freeing space aliens from his body.”
Dani was chiming in with “we can just get rid of Hubbard, yes he was a bit crazy but the tech works”. I was a hard critic on him
But what impressed me about Dani and the student was their decency in their response. There was no hatred of me like some apologists can convey.
They did not come back to the blog to war against critics like some Scientologists do.
Dani gained my respect. So I used him as an example because he was having wine with one of the top dog SPs: Tony
That one moment of Dani hanging with Tony inspired me.
Look, some people believe strangest things in exoteric religions. People can believe in strange philosophies or theologies and still be good people.
People can learn and be benefited by these religions. My caveat is do no harm.
Just know Theta Clear, I am not blind to the dangers of Ron and Scientology. But I am also not blind to some things that have helped people.
Brian, I am replying to this post data comment of yours, but will reply tomorrow to the first one as it is getting a little late for me, Ok buddy?
Regarding Dani, we fully agree about his great and kind personality. I have exchanged a few private communications with Dani over the past, so I am quite aware that he (and his wife) is a great individual. Actually, I have validated Dani and DROR at this blog in several ocassions; he knows this. I really like him, his wife and the others at DROR. I have never attacked Dani nor DROR at any of my posts in this or any other blog. Quite the contrary.
Don’t get me wrong, Brian, I am good friends with quite a few Scientologists, including the mother of my daughter whom I immensely love more than my own life. Her romantic partner is a practicing Indie and we are good friends. He is a great guy, and I am in debt with him for how an incredible stepfather he has been to my daughter. I love the guy.
At South Africa, I have other great friends who are Freezoners that practice CBR’s stuff (Captain Bill Robertson). We exchange email communications from time to time.
The great Mark Sheffler is also a good friend of mine, and he is very into LRH stuff.
Perhaps you have been led astray by the way I communicate. That’s my Aries side, haha. I can always agree to disagree with them. I have no problem with anyone practicing anything as long as no harm is done to others. But that doesn’t mean that I am blind to the inherent danger that most religions have, and how it is that most of them have only sunk people deeper into the mud of ignorance. Scn is dangerous to the individual. Way, way, way more dangerous than any other religion because, see Brain, other religions DO NOT represent their beliefs as “science” and “written-in-stone” truths. They fully accept that their dogmas are based on FAITH. But faith ISN’T part of Scn as it is advertised as an “exact science of the mind”. See the difference here, Brian? You are wrongly comparing Scn to others religions as faith is concerned. When people practice a religion, they usually KNOW that they are believing something out of faith. And most religions ARE NOT also psychotherapies, but Scn IS, allegedly. So Scn is NOT a datum of “comparable magnitude” to religions. The CofS and LRH wanted Scn to be it that way, but it ain’t.
“Look, some people believe strangest things in exoteric religions. People can believe in strange philosophies or theologies and still be good people. People can learn and be benefited by these religions. My caveat is do no harm.”
See my above comment that covers that statement of yours. And I have never ever said that Scientologists are bad people, Brian. You must have misinterpreted me as I can come pretty strong sometimes. What I have said is that they are in danger. Two different things. And if I so believe that someone is in danger, then I am very much obliged to do something effective about it. Otherwise, what kind of a friend am I?
“Just know Theta Clear, I am not blind to the dangers of Ron and Scientology.”
I am well aware that you are not. 🙂
“But I am also not blind to some things that have helped people.”
Well, Scn is not one of them. 🙂 Sorry Brian, whatever “help” they got with Scn, came with a VERY high price.
Yes, there is a special extra insidious psycho nature of Scientology. I think my posts about what I’d say if someone asked for advice to becoming a Scientologist conveys that.
I don’t need convincing of the dark side of Scientology. Lol
Deconstructing Hubbard’s dark side and some of his sicko doctrines is what I’ve been writing about for a few years.
Have you read my other essays?
Hi Brian,
Do you remember me, Mike Feldman. I was on staff at Geltman’s from 1973-1983 as course supervisor. I enjoyed your article. How’s your brother Michael doing? Man, what a long strange trip it’s been huh? I retired as a NYC teacher and now teach at Touro College part time.
I’d love to hear from you.
Best Regards,
Mike
Hey Mike! Yes I remember you! You can get my email address from Mike. Ha, Michael Feldman.
Hi Brian,
So nice to hear from you!
Listen, I’m very low tech. I’m not sure how to contact Mike directly
to get your e-mail. Can you get my e-mail from him?
Thanks, Mike Feldman
“Yes, there is a special extra insidious psycho nature of Scientology. I think my posts about what I’d say if someone asked for advice to becoming a Scientologist conveys that.”
Yes, thank you; I’ve read it. I am sorry for taking so long to reply to you.
I
“I don’t need convincing of the dark side of Scientology. Lol”
Haha, I know you don’t! 🙂
“Deconstructing Hubbard’s dark side and some of his sicko doctrines is what I’ve been writing about for a few years.”
I know, Brian.
“Have you read my other essays?”
Yes, I have. I am sorry for not having acknowledged you before that I had. I’ve also read most of your post comments here at this blog. I wasn’t inferring that you wasn’t aware of Scn/LRH’s delusional dark side. If there is someone here at this blog who is aware of that, is you, 🙂 My point was – and still is – that attempting to adopt a “Buddha’s viewpoint” on this dilemma, is not a workable strategy. Believe me, I have already tried that angle myself a few years ago when I wrote a few essays for the now gone “Scientologist Back in Comm” blog. I tried to bring together the the different viewpoints regarding Scientology, but it didn’t work because it is an unworkable strategy as noble as it might seem – which it is.
This “balance” that you are seeking now – which btw, I had never seen you adopting it before – unwittingly acts as a sort of “validation” for the practicing of Scn as long as no harm comes to others; am I right? I don’t think that you fully understand how dangerous it is to get involved with Scn even if it is out here in the Independent field (Indies), delivered by the most sane, compassionate, and trained auditors. I know, I know your opinion about Scn and LRH, as I have read – as I clarified before – most of your posts in this blog, and your essays. But in this particular essay, you are attempting to assume a “Buddha-type” or “non-dualistic” viewpoint on this dilemma of “, Scientologists v/s the critics”, and trying to give some importance – even if in a very non proportional ratio – to the “good” parts of Scn, like the ones that you experienced yourself. You are attempting to “ease the tensions off” between the Scientology sympathizers and the critics, emphasizing that understanding, forgiveness, and lack of hate, is the way we ought to look at this apparent conflict. Am I right in my analysis of your intentions?
If I got your intentions right – which I am assuming that I did – I see absolutely nothing wrong with that morally speaking. It is a noble and kind intention. But; but – and this is where I disagree with your strategy – I think that we should be showing others how Scn (not just the CofS) is a dangerous cult instead of trying to reconcile differences or getting others to friendly agree to disagree about it. That’s the way I see it, but of course, you don’t have to agree with me on that.
So I KNOW your opinion of LRH and Scn, and I HAVE read your others essays, and I KNOW that your are one of the best and more articulate Scn critics. Just stay focused and lose the “Let’s all hold our hands together and sing a mantra of understanding and unconditional love” attitude. That’s not a workable way to get others aware of the cultic and destructive nature of Scn. But that’s just my opinion and nothing more. Just do what your heart tells you to do. 🙂
Namaste!
Last thought for me Theta Clear:
I am basically recognizing that there are people who are still Scientologists. I also recognize that they may be around in various forms.
So in recognition of their right to religious freedom I implore them to get rid of doctrines which cause harm.
That is all. Nada, Zip and fini:-)
“Last thought for me Theta Clear:”
I understand. This will be my last on this particular subject, as well. 🙂
“I am basically recognizing that there are people who are still Scientologists. I also recognize that they may be around in various forms.”
Good! No disagreements on that.
“So in recognition of their right to religious freedom I implore them to get rid of doctrines which cause harm.”
Great! I was quite aware that those were (and are) your intentions, and I validate you very much for it. As I said before, I tried that strategy myself for quite some time at the now gone, “Scientologists Back in Comm” blog, and I had tried it here as well, in this blog many months ago (perhaps more than a year ago). I made good friends along the way, who were Scn sympathizers (both the KSW types and the freezoners/CBR types), and I got into email communications with several of them. They were grateful that I could “agree to disagree” regarding their support of Scn. It made them feel good and recognized. But what I found out was, that as noble and commendable that my attitude might have been, I wasn’t ACTUALLY helping them in any way, shape or form, beyond perhaps, having a terminal that they could communicate with.
One of them had this undeserved love for LRH which blinded him from seeing LRH’s very dark side. His love for the “tech” and LRH got him to blame DM for EVERYTHING bad in Scn, and he failed to give Scn and LRH any authorship for his very weakened state of health, an illness that started while he was still on lines. He blames DM for his health condition. He was never able to move away from Scn, and although he was seeking proper medical treatment, his emotional connection to LRH and Scn was causing him great harm. As I hasn’t heard from him in a loooong time, he might even be dead by now. He was hopeful that “Excalibur” (the modified “NOTs” version of lunatic captain Bill Robertson) could help him to heal, as I am sure he gave authorship of his illnesses to unhandled “BTs”.
Another friend has a medical condition which – even though he medically treats it in some way or another – he doesn’t do enough about it, and it is hopeful that a correction of his NOTs (or Solo-NOTs) will finally “handle” his condition.
Another friend was very much into CBR’s stuff. In case that you don’t know about it, “Captain Bill Robertson (CBR)” was an LRH trained class 8 auditor and C/S. He was the captain of the Apollo for some years, and was very close to LRH. When LRH disappeared into seclusion in 1980-81 (as he had been named, “unindicted co-conspirator” on the “Snow-white operation” federal case, and decided to hide as a coward letting his wife Mary Sue to take the blame for him- what a disgusting dog he was), Robertson’s communication line to LRH was cut by dear COB who had become the head of the newly created, “All Clear Unit” which purpose was, ” ‘All Clear’ for Hubbard to emerge from hiding”.
CBR left the CofS suspecting that LRH was no longer in charge of the CofS, as the church had allegedly been “infiltrated by the USA government”. He then created was is known as “Ron’s Org” where he supposedly “researched” the theory of NOTs (of “BTs”), and came up with a new rundown which he called “Excalibur”, which allegedly “handled” the “blind spots” and “holes” that NOTs had . CBR alleged that he was in “telepathic communication” with LRH who was giving him (CBR ) “instructions” on what to do to make sure that Scn continued to exist outside of the “control” of the government. CBR created an alternative “Bridge” which is totally different to the original one beyond the Scn Grades. He created this group/organization which he called, “The Galactic Patrol” of which LRH allegedly was the “Sector 9 (that’s Earth) commander” under the name of “Elron Elray”.
http://www.freewebs.com/freezone_/freezone_decree.html
It was CBR’s belief that “Lord Xemu” (from the “OT III” mythology) had escaped from his 75 million years old sleep and imprisonment, and the he was controlling Earth by his use of “BTs” type of beings who were secretly “influencing” the events on this planet through “telepathically meddling with others”, mainly from “hidden orbiting spaceships”. That is called, “Interference” in Ron’s Org, and there is an exact handling to deal with this “Interference” written by CBR and continue to be used by Ron’s Org practitioners.
CBR died of untreated throat cancer while attempting to hide in Europe from this out-of-space “invasion”.
Back to this friend of mine, he was hopeful that his medical condition would be finally handled with “Excalibur”, meaning that he was assigning a wrong authorship to his condition, something that, IMHO, is Scn’s biggest danger in practicing it : that from Clear on up, LRH assign to “BTs” the ENTIRETY of humans’ problems and situations INCLUDING ALL physical conditions.
Another friend who is very much into Ron’s Org stuff, believe with 100% certainty that all of CBR is true, and that LRH is well and alive as a “Free Being” STILL working to “save” Earth from the “Markab Invasion”. You would think that I am exaggerating or just kidding. Sadly enough, I am not, not even in the slightest degree. This friend has already done many of the Ron’s Org “upper” level stuff, and so, it would be extremely difficult to show him any other reality. He is probably no older than 25-29 years old. He is a professional, quite smart individual with which you can have a very normal and intelligent conversation outside of these beliefs.
“Freedom of ‘Religion’ “? Give me a fucking break, Brian!! Wake up and smell the coffee, buddy. The ONLY possible workable strategy to help these people is by SHOWING them with the most well-thought-of arguments backed up by evidence, how it is that Scn is a very destructive cult, while giving them a good education on what are cults all about so that they can start thinking by themselves at least a little bit. A “Let’s all hold our hands while singing a ‘we love each other’ mantra”, ISN’T going to help them AT ALL.
I rest my case. I won’t try to convince you of anything else any longer. You are a good, very smart, honest, and kind individual. As I said before, do what your heart tells you to do. 🙂
Nada, Zip and fin – 😉
Hey Brian, don’t put too much attention to my previous reply to you. I tend to get a little too moody regarding the “good parts of Scientology”. It is a long story that perhaps I will tell you one of these days. I stand by most of what I said in my previous replies, but I DO think that Scientology has some good and workable parts. I just think that the bad parts by far outweighs whatever “good” is to be found on it, and that those “good parts” are only safe to be looked at by already trained individuals who have already rid themselves of the cultic aspect of Scn. That’s why I can not possibly recommend Scn to anybody, and that my basic advice for others regarding it is, “stay as far away as you can from the subject”. But I do appreciate what you were trying to accomplish by your essay. Take care.
Peter
This is for ThetaClear:
ThetaClear you stated that it is FACT and NOT opinion that Scientology is destructive to people and that as a matter of conscience you would not recommend Scientology as a method of help to any vulnerable person. You were an auditor; were any of your preclears destroyed or harmed in any way by your auditing? As a highly trained Scientologist, did you observe that YOUR use of LRH tech on vulnerable people seeking answers in life hurt them? And, if so, did your PCs tell you that they had irreparably damaged after being audited by you and did the subsequent trajectory of their lives bear this out?
Yes to ALL of your questions, Aquamarine. When they DID improved, it was MINE communication cycle and my previous expertise at helping others that created the benefit, and not the “Tech” itself. In fact, I found myself frequently having to modify Scn to make it workable enough. Like ignoring many policies and HCOBs. Good try, though, 😉 I am different kind of critic; one who knows how to properly prove his arguments, 😉
“Irreparable damage”? Adding the adjective “irreparable” isn’t going to improve your arguments in favor of Scn, because it isn’t even applicable to my previous assertions.
Brian, you are conflating data. Pliny, Einstein, et al are NOT part of the cult named, Jehova’s Witness. They are simply writings belonging to OTHER subjects that are used as window dressing for the cult.
Therefore, they are NOT the “good parts” of the Jehova’s Witness cult. They are not part of it at all. No more than nuclear energy is part of scientology.
Yes that is true, but it was in a mag by them. And that article was good.
My only point in all of this is that anything that exists in the world of relativity, which is everything that exists, has a duel nature.
That is just how reality is. Creation is based on duality:
Up
Down
Good
Bad
Right
Wrong
And every created thing has a combination, in varying ratios, between these opposing forces.
There is not one thing that exists that does not have a dual element: positive and negative; from atomic structure to be behavior of human beings.
This essay was me being the fulcrum, the immovable support on which both sides of the balanced scale is have their very existence.
Don’t worry, I can easily swing into being an absolute critic Winsky. Lol!
But in this essay I am creating space for both sides of the argument.
It’s also ok that you don’t get what I am talking about. But it is my view.
Thanks for your spirited responses. 🙂
No, it doesn’t. If I am a psychotic killer, I don’t necessarily have a dual nature. That is not supported by fact. “Duality” is a philosophic viewpoint. It is NOT based on science. “Up/down” doesn’t really exist. The universe has no up or down. Just one example. Another, a neutral charge has no opposite.
Mahatma Gandhi shook the had of the military official who over saw the mowing down, with enfield rifles and machine guns, innocent people assembled in a town square.
He bowed to the man who shot him.
Martin Luther KIng marched head on into his death preaching non violence and love.
You can take Scientology apart and deconstruct Hubbard’s dark side, but we don’t have to hate. It just is not necessary. You know my views on Ron and Scientology Winskey. I do not need to be reminded of the dark side. I’ve been writing about it now for a few years.
“Look past the roles and see the souls” This idea came to me in a tranny bar.
“To love those that love you is easy. To love those that love you not is not so simple. If you want to change anyone, set a better example. Show more kindness, more understanding, more love. That has a sure effect. To those who are not kind, show kindness. To those who are mean, show bigness of heart.’
Paramahansa Yogananda
This is my value and practice. It also keeps my ego in check. God knows I need to! ha ha!
That there tranny bar… where was that exactly? 🙂
Irrelevant. Isolated examples don’t matter. Some things have no “good” BALANCING/USEFUL component. Some have no bad balancing component.
I can deconstruct a pile of dog shit that has been served AS human food. It won’t matter as there will not be enough good (human food grade material) to make the exercise VIABLE.
That is all we are talking about. Hate or love of the subject is irrelevant in the discussion. That you feature it means you have driven off the road and into the swamp.
By the way, I lost track of who wrote it in this thread, and it took me a few days to fact-check it, but when I first read it, I thought it did not ring true, and it isn’t. Ghandi did not bow to the man who shot him. Didn’t happen. He was shot three times and fell instantly to the ground. FYI, in case anyone is tempted to use that in the future.
Hey Ken, thanks. I got my facts messed up. It was as he was crumbling to the ground he touched his hand to his forehead in a Hindu gesture of forgiveness.
Thanks for correcting me. Yet the essence of pronaming (folding hands in respect to others), which I got wrong, is represented even stronger with hands to forehead actually representing forgiveness.
Here’s the link http://100years.upi.com/sta_1948-01-30.html
I certainly don’t intend to doubt your overall veracity, but I think legends tend to grow (look at Jesus), and I can’t find any credible accounts of Ghandi putting his hand to his forehead in a sign of forgiveness. The Wikipedia entry doesn’t mention it (the one about his assassination) and here is a scholarly article that doesn’t mention it. I think Ghandi planned to do something noble at the end, if he was shot, and the people close to him knew that, and might have made up the story. Intending something and then doing it when three bullets are suddenly pumped into you — probably two different things. I don’t think this is important to your overall points, but the critical thinker and former journalist in me needed to check this out. I think Ghandi was great.
http://www.academia.edu/303908/Gandhis_inaudible_last_words
Here is the scene from the movie “Ghandi.” It was more audible here, but if he forgave his assassin, that should have been a real “moment.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeTAux3_VwI
Aunt Charlie’s San Fran. I think it’s closed now?
It was my first attendance to a gay wedding. Went out with friends and the wedding party.
Hubbard also said that the ability to withhold was a measure of sanity.
Hubbard constantly contradicted himself. He built in control mechanism in almost every facet of his “applied religious philosophy”.
Yes, that’s the problem, or one of them. By all accounts from those who knew him and worked with him he frequently contradicted his own advice by doing and saying precisely what he said others should never do.
“Hubbard also said that the ability to withhold was a measure of sanity.
Hubbard constantly contradicted himself. He built in control mechanism in almost every facet of his ‘applied religious philosophy’.”
That’s right, BKmole, he definitely did!! Regarding the “ability to withhold”, though, he wasn’t referring to the “ability to keep a contra-survival act untold”, but to the ability to “refrain ourselves from commiting harmful actions”. On that, I am afraid that he was right. Of course, this thought wasn’t an “original” thought of his; that datum has been part of many Eastern philosophies since thousands of years ago, like part of Buddhism, for example. And LRH’s methods of helping someone to be able to “withhold” are not workable as they seldom go to the root of it. The root is NOT an “evil intention” (nor the “prior confusion”) as he tried to get us to believe with his bullshit FPRD tech or the Sec check tech. Searching for this “evil intention” just introverts others heavily and actually diminishes their power of choice and free will. LRH had it wrong in SOOOOOOOO many things.
Peter,
I propose to you the following idea; please tell me what you think of this:
When you select out and use only the “good parts” of Scientology and disregard the “bad parts” you are no longer applying Scientology, because “Scientology” is no longer Scientology without the “bad parts”.
And as a side note, as to why a person would want to navigate througha sea of data while filtering out truth from falsity, etc: A former church member who has already had his Scientology experiences would want to do that because he’s already learned both the information and has had his good and bad experiences, and can sort it out relatively easily compared to someone starting to learn Scientology from scratch.
Dave Fagen,
You asked Peter to respond but I’d like to give you my 2 cents with regard to these intelligent questions of yours.
First, I cherry pick what I find workable out of what I learned in Scientology and ignore and don’t practice doesn’t work in my relationships, business and life. Now, I call what I do practice, “Scientology” because I learned it when I was in, but, for me, “Scientology” is just a name which of itself is nott important to me. What matters to me is workability. I have no vested interest in proving that “Scientology” works. I do what works, and I wouldn’t care if someone wanted to call it “Peanut Butter & Jelly”, you know? What matters to me is that something works, or it doesn’t.
Secondly, as to “why a person would want to navigate through a sea of data while filtering out truth ffrom falsity”, I, personally, LONG ago stopped expecting to be fed “the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth” via ANY body of data. I have no such expectations. Long ago I realized that it is ALWAYS up ot me, ALWAYS my responsiblity, to evaluate data.
This are just my viewpoints on the points you raised. Others may differ
And one of these years I’ll discipline myself enough to self edit my posts here.
“Peter,”
Hi Dave!
“I propose to you the following idea; please tell me what you think of this:”
I am all ears, 🙂
“When you select out and use only the ‘good parts’ of Scientology and disregard the ‘bad parts’ you are no longer applying Scientology, because ‘Scientology’ is no longer Scientology without the ‘bad parts’.”
That’s a great argument indeed, Dave! Scientology is DEFINITELY not Scientology without those “bad parts”, especially without KSW #1, for example. And KSW #1 is strictly LRH without no alterations in any way, shape or form from dear COB. And LRH ordered in WRITTEN that KSW #1 was to be the FIRST item on any given checksheet. And what most destructive, false, and delusional than that policy?
Scientology isn’t Scn without the Rudiments which include FORCED confessions (the M/W/H Rud, “Missed Withhold”). I know of no other religions that forces confessions on others. And with ANYONE regardless of his/her record as a trusted individual or not. That in itself is the most crazy thing that I have ever heard about a “religion”, and is in fact, a key element of ANY cult. For centuries many people have achieved spiritual enlightenment without ANY need for CONSTANT confessions.
Scientology isn’t Scn without the realtionship between “Scn is not working” and “the ONLY reason for it is an M/U” that one needs to find and clear. That is in itself a form of thought reform and indoctrination. And on, and on, and on…….. So you are totally correct, Dave; Scientology = ALL its parts, or it isn’t Scn.
“And as a side note, as to why a person would want to navigate througha sea of data while filtering out truth from falsity, etc: A former church member who has already had his Scientology experiences would want to do that because he’s already learned both the information and has had his good and bad experiences, and can sort it out relatively easily compared to someone starting to learn Scientology from scratch.”
I totally agree, and he wouldn’t be as nearly in danger as the one who has never been exposed to Scn before, but dear Dave, what would be the point in doing that, if you don’t mind of me asking? Why would he want to do that in the first place?
I have a few tools I learned from Scientology that I still use because I see their value. And now I do them when I want to and how I want to, without anyone else’s permission, and I use my own personal judgment and I don’t have to include the destructive parts.
But these are things that are obviously very useful to me, and it is very easy to filter out all the garbage. I’ve already studied these things, and I have a decent idea of what is harmful in Scientology and it’s easy to ignore those things. So why wouldn’t I want to do that?
It’s no longer Scientology, it’s my own personal understandings based on my perceptions of truth, and my experiences.
It would take more time than I have right now to fully explain this in detail, so I can see where it’s possible that I’m not making my point with you. I still intend to consult with you someday.
“I have a few tools I learned from Scientology that I still use because I see their value. And now I do them when I want to and how I want to, without anyone else’s permission, and I use my own personal judgment and I don’t have to include the destructive parts.”
I pretty much understand you, Dave; I did the same for quite some time even when I no longer considered myself a Scientologist anymore, and had became a Scn critic. In my personal case, I discovered after hundreds of hours of research and application into many Eastern philosophies and methods of healing, that whatever good applications that some parts of Scn had for me, I could get much better, cleaner, and faster results with other methods. So I dropped Scn completely. But I spent a few years using Scn as I saw fit and with the modifications that I deemed necessary without even the slightest attention to KSW, just as you apparently do now. I even studied alternative versions of Scn like Excalibur and other CBR stuff, and the research of Clearbird (a class 8) on the GPMs and his procedure called, “DEEP Character Clearing”. I also studied the materials that “The Pilot” researched, and those of several old-timers class VIs and VIIIs like Robert Ducharme, etc. I put into application all of that, but none of that stuff gave me what I wanted.
Then I stumbled across something called “EFT Tapping” (“Emotional Freedom Technique”), got trained on it for several months, applied it to myself, and in just a few hours (15-25) I had gotten What hundreds of hours of Scn didn’t deliver. I used the tutorials of the original discoverer of EFT, Gary Craig, which are incredibly detailed and are totally free online. I could use EFT to handle a severe ARCx situation in life in just 5-10 mins, what would normally take a full L1C and even a GF or an L4B to handle it as the BPC usually had different reasons. EFT is even being recently used by quite a few psychotherapists, like psychologists, etc.
Then I studied much about Buddhism, Non-dualism, Chakra balancing, “Energy Medicine” from Donna Eden, and meditation Theravada Buddhism style, etc; and found out that most of the “good” in Scn had existed since centuries ago, and LRH had just “copy-pasted” them, but also modified and altered many of those concepts in the direction of less workability and more authoritarianism. So I discovered that Scn was composed of true data mixed with faulty and destructive data, which would require a CONSTANT filtering out of the workable facts from the false and cultic ones. And when I say “constant”, I mean happening at almost every book, HCOPL, and HCOB. So it became something quite illogical for me to continue to use Scn.
Then I got very serious in studying the subject of astrology, and found something called “Psychological Astrology” and “Evolutionary Astrology”, and I was amazed by how accurate it could describe the personality of others, including recognizing their unknown patterns of self-sabotaging behaviors, and what we could do about it. And so I got trained on it using the literature of the best astrologers of the world. I will soon apprentice with one who is considered as one of the best, and internationally recognized.
So now I use Psychological Astrology and Evolutionary Astrology to help myself and others, together with some workable methods of healing to deal with what I find in the natal charts. And I feel like I am finally in the direction of doing what I was meant to do this lifetime. I was born for this. So when I read anything from LRH now, Dave, it looks so primitive and even child-like, that I wouldn’t even bother to read not even a page. But I have no beef with whoever wants to use LRH, if they are able to recognize the bullshit from the “good”. But, IMHO, most people can’t. You are one of the few exceptions that I have encountered.
“But these are things that are obviously very useful to me, and it is very easy to filter out all the garbage. I’ve already studied these things, and I have a decent idea of what is harmful in Scientology and it’s easy to ignore those things. So why wouldn’t I want to do that? It’s no longer Scientology, it’s my own personal understandings based on my perceptions of truth, and my experiences.”
In really get you, Dave; I really do as I went through the same exact experience as you are going through now. My concern is primarily with the individuals who are still under the undue influence of Scn and LRH to some degree or another. It is to those that Scn becomes a time bomb. But I have no concern with trained Scientologists who had already rid themselves of the cultic aspects of Scn, using whatever they judge to be useful to them. Unfortunately, most Scientologists or Scn sympathizers are not like that, as most of them STILL are under the undue influence of the cult in some way or another, and to a degree or another.
“It would take more time than I have right now to fully explain this in detail, so I can see where it’s possible that I’m not making my point with you. I still intend to consult with you someday.”
Yes Dave; I did understood your point, and I am ok with that. 🙂
Thetaclear – My grandmother on my father’s side was a devout Methodist. She also believed in and, I think, practiced astrology. I was just a boy at this time in the 1950’s. Her viewpoint was that God created the Heavens so we could admire them and use them to understand ourselves better. Something like that. She also told me that angels helped her and they would help me too if I wished. Lastly, in the 1950’s and early 1960’s she was promoting and selling some type of seaweed supplement, not as a cure all, but as a remedy for many ills.
I’d say the lady was a bit ahead of her time. She would have fit right in with the Age of Aquarius crowd. 🙂
Peter,
In accordance with what you are saying, let me modify my answer to your question of why someone would want to use things that he learned in Scientology, while discarding the “bad” and using the “good”.
My modified answer is: because they have already studied Scientology when they were Scientologists; they don’t have to start studying Scn from scratch so it’s not that hard to filter out the “bad” from the “good”; they see value in some of the data and techniques because they have already successfully used them but they also have experienced the harmful parts so they know well enough to discard those – AND – they haven’t studied any other systems of personal and spiritual improvement that make those “good parts” of Scientology unnecessary.
For what it’s worth, I’m a beginning explorer of other systems and philosophies. I am reading Napoleon Hill currently, which I find far more practical and far less cryptic than Scientology. I once read that you recommended his works (I was already studying him when I saw your recommendation) There’s more on the way. I will be in touch with you about them and will refer to the ones you have mentioned above.
Dave
“Peter,”
“In accordance with what you are saying, let me modify my answer to your question of why someone would want to use things that he learned in Scientology, while discarding the ‘bad’ and using the ‘good’.”
“My modified answer is: because they have already studied Scientology when they were Scientologists; they don’t have to start studying Scn from scratch so it’s not that hard to filter out the ‘bad’ from the ‘good’ they see value in some of the data and techniques because they have already successfully used them but they also have experienced the harmful parts so they know well enough to discard those – AND – they haven’t studied any other systems of personal and spiritual improvement that make those ‘good parts’ of Scientology unnecessary.”
Now, that’s a VERY common sense answer, Dave! I like how you reason things out. You remind me of Mark Sheffler, 🙂 , the one and only Scientologist (or Scn sympathizer) so far (but now I am forced to include you on my list too, haha), that I consider quite free of LRH’s bullshit even when they STILL use Scn in their life with no apparent ill consequences for them. Those kind of Scientologists or Scn sympathizers (or “sporadic users”, to use a less “offensive” adjective, haha), are VERY rare to be found, indeed!! This means, that there is still hope for us.
Just between you and me, Dave, 😉 , I still use some parts of Scn here and there, to some degree or another. Of course, most of those parts are not really original from LRH; he just took credit for them, but he did explained them in better ways, and gave them a sort of “structure” and “methodology” to them. Just to make a quick list – and to show that I am not exactly a “hater” (just a little bit perhaps, haha) – some of them are :
1. The general concept of “ARC”.
Although LRH’s view of this psychological relationship was poisoned with his well known tendency towards generalization and a “not-to-be-questioned” attitude, this concept of the ARC triangle has many great uses, IMHO. Actually, it is a sort of “intuitive” and “common sense” concept. I used it in many successful PTS handlings that handled once and for all many previously long conflicting relationships between people with familial and/or marital ties. My own sister and my lovely two ex-wifes, are just 2 examples out of many. One of the best writings by LRH is by far, the chapter on “Affinity, Reality and Communication” of the POW (“Problems of Work) book. Excellent chapter indeed! Very, very useful for those who can think for themselves free from dogmatic interferences. I always was myself a “rebel” when I was a Scientologist, always “bending” and “modifying” the “Tech” as I saw fit according to my own instincts and judgment. It is to that, that I owe my success with applying Scn to others, when it did worked for them.
If one really knows how to play around this triangular relationship, like Mike Sheffler can so beautifully do, many great PR/good-will and therapeutic approaches could be constructed and applied.
2. The concept of “PTSness” viewed as a conflicting relationship between two individuals, where one of them is emotionally (or dependably as in a boss-employee work relationship) connected to another who is – from the perspective of the affected one – opposing his purposes in life in any way; is another Scn concept which I found to be extremely useful.
Of course, this concept of “psychopathic personalities” and how they insidiously affect those connected to them, is not anything new, and predates LRH by decades!!! Segismund Freud studied and wrote about this as well as other notable psychologists of his time. But this view of how one can become the unwilling effect of someone who is not necessarily a “psychopath” (an “SP” in Scn terms), wasn’t very much discussed and understood in the mainstream psychological circles. At least, not as it is understood today.
But as with almost anything from Scn, LRH perverted a good tech, and turned it into a “Those opposing Scientology” issue, where the personalities of those criticizing Scn or opposing it, were wrongly assessed and evaluated as “SPs”, and they became the target for abusive “Fair gaming” practices. This started since the mid ’50s and NOT in the mid ’60s as many believe. LRH was ALREADY quite bipolar by the mid ’50s, but I personally believe that he was quite bipolar and under a heavy psychological pathology since BEFORE DMSMH. That’s why that book has so many exaggerated claims in it, a clear evidence of a pathological behavior.
Please notice how just the name itself – “Potential Trouble Source” – has to do with “protecting” the organization, because they were called “PTS” primarily to AVOID legal conflicts as the many that occured around the time of the SHSBC with non Scientologists family members of active Scientologists. So it was primarily a PR/protection issue, and not a part of the Scn therapy itself. Later on, it became part is the Scn therapy, but not on its beginnins.
The less “perverted” version of this concept of “PTSness” (and the way that I had always understood the subject) comes from a SHSBC lecture called, “A Briefing of Review Auditors” (14 October 1965), but even in that lecture you find many generalizations and assertions taken as “Gospels” not to be questioned. Here is a portion of it to illustrate my point :
“…..All right, now, let’s take number two, and this is the main thing I want to talk to you about: A rolly coaster equals a suppressive person in that person’s vicinity. In other words, rolly coaster – PTS. If a person rolly coasters, it’s PTS. A PTS is a connection with a suppressive. I’ll give you the exact mechanics of it; I’ll let you sort them out on your own time.” (SHSBC-431, 14 OCTOBER 1965)
Notice how LRH equates PTSnes to a connection to a “Suppressive”. Later on in time he wrote about “PTS type A” where he didn’t necessarily consider the antagonistic family member (or spouse, gf, or intimate relationship) as an actual “SP” by its standard Scn definition. But all other types of PTSes where DIRECTLY related to an SP. Type I is self explanatory. Type II allegedly acted PTS to a non-SP terminal due to a reactive A=A=A identification with a past real SP (usually from a past life, he alleged). But, at the “bottom” of it all, there was always the “real” SP. Not much was written by LRH on the rather common possibility of the PTS phenomena as related with conflicting relationships among people who does not have psychopathic personalities and who are not “evil intentioned” as such. But, it it this type of conflicting relationships, the ones that are most frequently observed in real life. In other words, “PTSness” is a very common phenomenon of life.
LRH continues on that lecture :
“….And that’s postulat-counter-postulate is the anatomy of a problem. And this belongs in actual fact at Grade I. And it’s just this: postulate-counter-postulate. Postulate versus postulate. That is the definition and the anatomy of a problem. And there is no other definition to a problem. There can be several counter-postulates; there can be several going out like this, but that makes several problems. The central problem is always postulate-counter-postulate.”
Here is was relating the PTSphenomenaa as the manifestation of a “postulate-counter-postulate” (purpose counter purpose, intention counter intention, etc). And he was right enough here, IMHO, as a “PTS” phenomena is always the result of a important disagreement, but usually the intention counter to ours is seen as invalidating and forcefully authoritarian. In other words, we feel “suppressed” by it.
Here he got it right, and explained what I had always thought to be the case, and the viewpoint from which I had always done my PTS handlings on others:
“….So the guy has had a purpose in life and somebody has suppressed it, or a guy has had a purpose over a twenty-four-hour period and somebody suppressed that purpose. In other words, his purpose was his postulate, the other person saying he couldn’t do it was the counter-postulate. Do you follow?” (LRH)
I know of NO other reference where LRH made such a distinction. If a KSW out there knows of any, I am all ears. LRH continues :
“…Now, SP is a version of this. It’s a version of a problem and is a specialized kind of problem, and that is what causes the rolly coaster. The individual has run into a postulate-counter-postulate since his last improvement, which makes him a potential trouble source.”
Here he at least inferred (by his comment, “Now, SP is a version of this”) that any “postulste-counter-postulate” situation can make a person PTS and cause him to roller-coaster, without the necessity of any SP as such. But he clarified it even further as demonstrated by this :
“…..He might have only been PTS for twenty minutes. And it’s very interesting that you can overrun a person who is trying to tell you he’s already gone Release and the person becomes a PTS. Who’s the suppressive?”
“Audience: The auditor.”
“Isn’t that interesting? Of course, the suppressive – it’s merely a suppressive action. You don’t declare the auditor a suppressive person. Do you follow? You don’t have to then go through the endless action of „the Pc must separate from the auditor and disconnect and…“ That’s a lot of balderdash, isn’t it?” (LRH)
And (Caps are mine to emphasize) :
“Now, don’t let somebody shake you off of this datum that a rolly coaster is a PTS. And the definition of PTS is: connected to a suppressive person or ACTION. See? Person or ACTION. A guy can inadvertently suppress something. You’re driving down the road and somebody steps out in front of your car – believe me, when you hit him, you suppressed him. You certainly didn’t intend to and that doesn’t make you a suppressive person. Do you follow?”
He also made the following clarification :
“Now, a suppressive person is not somebody with horns; it’s a person who has had a counter-postulate to the PC you are handling. But a suppressive person who is routinely suppressive in life, invalidative of Scientology and trying to keep people from getting well and that sort of thing, is a social menace.”
See Dave? From the above perspective is how I ALWAYS applied this material. But, just how many people do you know that have actually listened to the 431th lecture of the SHSBC? That lecture has never been a prerequisite to finish the PTS/SP course. Some minor quotes from that lecture is included in that course as part of an HCOB, but not all that I have posted.
And anyway, all the subsequent HCOBs that followed that lecture didn’t contain any clarifications (nor the “Tech dictionary” had them) as to the difference between a “suppressive action” done by a non-SP item from those suppressive actions done by SP items, meaning psychopathic personalities as such. In fact, LRH twisted and perverted the subject even more with his Ethics policies that followed the SHSBC.
Do you see my point, Dave? This reply is rather long because I wanted to make my case clear enough for you and for other posters here.
3. Book-1 auditing straight from the DMSMH book is another very workable tool I used on others for thousands of hours. But this is a form of something called “Abreaction Therapy” researched by Dr. Segismund Freud, but then he changed his therapy focus to “Dream Interpretation” :
https://www.theravive.com/therapedia/abreaction-therapy
If you read Freud’s research on Abreaction, you will see notes about “Earlier similar incidents” and about “charged phrases” (“Bouncers”, “Deniers”, etc), even though in not that exact words, of course; but essentially the same concepts. But LRH, as he always did (especially after the mid ’60s), didn’t give Freud any credit for his Dianetics which was in essence, a “copy pasted” version of “Abreaction”.
I used BK-1 very much as described in DMSMH, but I applied to it my own discernment and judgment, and modified it as I saw fit the circumstances. My PCs never complained AT ALL of my modifications, 😉
Was LRH a genius for Dianetics? Of course he wasn’t; it was never his to begin with!!!
Do you see how difficult it is to navigate through the maze of contradictions in Scientology? How can anyone not properly trained in the art of “Critical Thinking” and who does not have a solid background in different methods of healing and philosophy – and their history – be able to filter the truth from the falsities and mere delusions of this subject called Scientology?
You my friend, are the RARE exception to the rule, 🙂
“For what it’s worth, I’m a beginning explorer of other systems and philosophies. I am reading Napoleon Hill currently, which I find far more practical and far less cryptic than Scientology. I once read that you recommended his works (I was already studying him when I saw your recommendation) There’s more on the way.”
Yeah, his works are great indeed!
“I will be in touch with you about them and will refer to the ones you have mentioned above.”
Sure, Dave; it is always a great pleasure to get in touch with you, 🙂
Peter
Please just email each other. I don’t have time to read all this
I am sorry Mike. I sometimes forget that you read all comments before posting them as part of the moderator function. My mistake. I’ll continue with Dave through email lines. Thank you for your patience.
Too bad, I was just about to copy and paste all of War and Peace as my next comment. Oh well. Maybe I’ll just post it on Marty’s blog instead.
🙂 Sorry! You can email me if you want to. I am assuming that kept my email address, but in case that you didn’t, just ask Mike for it.
Brian, I fell in awe of the depth of your comments a couple of years ago. It was one of your “Dear Davey” letters and it was so compassionate and insightful that I wept as I read it to my husband. I began to look for and look forward to your comments because your words inspire my growth. And now I get whole essays? Sheer glee! Thank you!
Thank you, Mike, for giving platform to additional voices as you carry on your important work on cable. I am so happy to witness the changes in society’s perception of Scientologist over the past five years of reading your blog. I am a long time lurker because somehow I don’t seem to come across well when I comment, but here goes.
I am an almost-in. There but for the grace of the LA riots! If I had driven from Redlands to my introductory class that day, would I have paid $140 or whatever to stand on Hollywood Blvd with dozens of other scientologists? It doesn’t matter, they cashed my check even though I didn’t show up.
I have been fascinated since 1983, when a classmate at an SDA boarding school told me about the old man. My friend had been to Happy Valley and told me of all night long drills, a loudspeaker and a tape or record of Ron shouting commands, which sounded dreadful to me! He had even been told he was special because he had light reddish hair similar to Ron’s.
Sorry to descend off topic, but I wanted to summarize some of the tangential connections I have to the church.
I am a musician who has played for 18 years at First Presbyterian Church of Hollywood, just across the 101 from the Celebrity Centre. During the early Katie Holmes years, when all parking lots were all filled to capacity, my carpool buddies and I would cavalierly yell, “We’ll save you, Katie!!!” as we drove down Bronson Ave. Until the armed security guards filled that homeless man full of lead for yelling the same thing, on the same street.
Four years ago I read on this blog to be kind to members so I began to attempt to actively engage the SO members I would occasionally see on Thursday nights or Sundays. The only one who ever spoke kindly back to me was Willie and Phil Jones’s daughter, Emily. I commented on it here after it happened, right after I saw Going Clear at the ArcLight. I didn’t know her name till later, but she was kind to me.
The scariest mofo I ever saw on Carlos Ave was Mark Feigin. He and two female SO members walked rapidly past my vehicle one rainy Thursday evening and I thought to myself, I wouldn’t want to be on his bad side, or even in his field of vision! That was a year or two before his arrest for threatening Muslims, when they found all that ammo
A Valley IAS member (I know this from the sticker on his car) that lives in Glendale repeatedly cussed me and my friends out, for no reason. He would simply see one of us and begin a rant. At the time I didn’t know what a WOG was and I thought he was calling us hogs! I thought it was odd behavior from a member of the most ethical group on the planet!
And I really do believe that I saw the tiny leader last April, walking West along Carlos Ave and then South on Gower. At first I thought it was a child actor, but the makeup was too thick, the pompadour too coiffed. He cut quite a dichotomous image marching next to the tallest, skinniest, darkest man i have ever seen, seven feet tall at least. As DM bounced on the balls of his feet, he sort of cocked his head this way and that with each step, and almost thrust his elbows out like he was punching the air. By he time I realized it was the leader himself, he was too far away for me to get a picture!
And I wish I could come across the you tube video of The Commodore’s Messengers (including young Davey) lipsynching Gloria Gaithor’s ,”I Will Survive”.
Thank you for your kind words Carol.
Fabulous post!
Spot on, Christie. Absolutely incredible! I also started at the Geltman mission (late 60s) and had fabulous wins on the comm course. And in auditing. I’ve spoken of this before. I went on to more terrific changes and greater understanding of myself at the NY Org. Those were truly “the good old days”. It was fun, intensive, loving, and much more. THAT was what I knew Scientology to be. Great auditors who truly cared, truly communicated and who LOVED being in the auditor’s chair and helping a fellow human.
Later, at another mission, I became the Course Sup for their comm course. None of that “weekend and you’re done” there. The course ran for weeks and you weren’t done until you could hold your own against ANY form of bull baiting. And for me, it was exhilarating to watch the changes take place. On course nights, the students arrived an hour early just to spend time with new friends and talk about the new experiences they were having in life.
Auditing WORKED. Training WORKED. I will never forget those days and the privilege I had in being part of them. What has happened since will never erase the gains I had then.
Hubbard, as with most of us, had his flaws. Many of them significant. That we let him get away with so much of it was part of our own flaws. “You are totally responsible for the condition you are in.” Unfortunately for many of us, “responsibility” and “blame” became wedded. But if I’m in some sort of a pickle, who else can become responsible for the situation other than myself? Blaming myself (or others) gains me nothing.
And if nothing else was gained, I met my wife while in, a warm and wonderful woman, highly talented, funny, spiritual…and did I mention funny? And without scientology, I’d have likely never met her. I rest my case.
I neglected to expressly thank Brian for his lucid post. Expressive, sane, humane and very well written.
Thank you guys
I second and third your comment. I had some great training and auditing though considering.my 23 years in the SO there was never enough. In 1999 on the Freewinds I had terminal full-blown AIDS which was undiagnosed. I was on the PRO TRS course. The fatigue was so bad I could not sit.in a chair for 30.seconds without falling on the floor. It took 3-400 hours of OT TR0 to learn how to sit in a chair. (Basically I had to be exterior from the body.) After another 300 or so hours, I made it through the course and passed my video. The result from the course helped when a few years later I was sent to a chiropractor to be treated for AIDS.
After that I was (C/Sed) by the ship to get the (hospice rundown) for which the E/P is, of course, death.
My wife did not comply with the C/S (whoever wrote it) and took me to some squirrell doctor who successfully treated my condition instead. No wonder the Church doesn’t like medical doctors; they interfere with the important product of making martyrs. Now I have been declared for non compliance (at least, that was my only known high crime at the time) now there are more. (to be continued).
I dunno know Brian, lets get down to brass tacks.
First Hubbard said in 1950 Dianetics any two people of intelligence could “clear” each other. Eight years later in the Clearing Congress video’s Hubbard admits he never produced a “clear”. And it’s still not true to this day let alone “OT”.
DM and his lawyers still sell Dianetics as if it is the bible, LOL
What a con!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNtaxR6wEyc
I’m still singing and dancing once I discovered the truth, no clears or OT’s.
My take is the power in any Ron process is really our ability. To look and differentiate in order to see the true nature of thought and thus reality. That’s our talent. Ron did not bestow on us that ability.
Ron’s processes are secondary to our own ability to look. I have found that any time I go within in have cognitions. I never use Ron’s processes anymore. Cognitions/realizations or ‘aha’ moments is just what happens when we turn our attention inwards to look.
Yes singandance, Ron was criminal in false advertising. That’s why Feds, AMA, were after him.
The troublesome pathological contradictions in Ron is being played out in this diaspora imo.
Hey Brian, I really loved your post and following the resulting threads.
Your words here are what I was attempting to say in my prior post below.
“My take is the power in any Ron process is really our ability. To look and differentiate in order to see the true nature of thought and thus reality. That’s our talent. Ron did not bestow on us that ability.
Ron’s processes are secondary to our own ability to look. I have found that any time I go within in have cognitions. I never use Ron’s processes anymore. Cognitions/realizations or ‘aha’ moments is just what happens when we turn our attention inwards to look.”
When I realized that I CAN look inward and I have the ability to ask questions AND GET ANSWERS… that was a big shift for my own growth. You can call it listening to your gut feelings, following your instinct or intuition, being present and looking. First, I learned to pay attention to my instincts and not disregard or poo-poo them as more garbage coming in. When I put my thoughts into questions… as an energetic action… out into the Universe I got answers. Sometimes directly. Sometimes indirectly and in the weirdest coincidental ways BUT I got answers cuz I WAS paying attention and listening. Then bingo, realizations just came into my mind or into my reality around me.
This is why many major physicians and spiritual teachers are now saying that this stuff works and getting the word out that there is proof that meditation or looking inward does help and work. That’s why they are recommending it, especially to those who are experiencing spiritual anxiety and depression and/or physical pain. Even the VA has programs in hatha yoga, tai chi, meditation, Yoga Nidra, journaling, art and music therapy, biofeedback training and Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) to help those in pain transition to life without opioid painkillers and anxiety medications… to be more centered, focused and be more in control of their bodies and minds.
?exactly
Exactly! There is no such thing as a clear and certainantly no real, nor attainable, OT powers. All there is is a human being who held metal cans for a number of hours and by the power of suggestion mixed with their own imagination, began believe the make believe. If a single human could demonstrate 1% of what L Con sold, the orgs would have lines out the door.
It doesn’t matter if we are talking about 1960s Scientology under fat man or today’s Scientology under short man, it’s all the same con. Standard tech and repackaged tech work the same. They have been promising the same thing for almost 70 years and failed to deliver even once, even with Davies revisions. I don’t doubt that some people had gains from the communication class, but past that I see no value to anything.
I am sick of people who whine about DM but praise LHR. Both men have ripped families apart and both men are/were selling the same ocean front property in Nebraska.
Is it possible that a reformed COS make it in the future? I, personally, don’t think so. But I do believe in keeping a good thought, energy or prayer in the direction of those who are still in as staff, public and the worst… disconnected families. Keeping them in our hearts and minds so that they can find their own way out into the light of a real life with real emotional attachments in it.
I have had some good moments in personal relationships, auditing and course work. But through my many more off putting experiences with the zealous staff, a marriage gone south, and many work relationships that made me question who and what these people were emulating made me back off and observe for myself what exactly was happening there. I still called myself a scientologist but I became a fence sitter. Reckoning, when and if I had a major windfall, I would walk in and make them deliver my bridge to me on my terms as I would be in control. Hold my position. Now, I see that was utter folly. If that never happened, I was okay with that also.
Being open to talk to a therapist helped me a lot as well as my basic beliefs in spirituality and that we are all OT – for lack of a better word. Maybe listening and following your intuition works. It does for me!
I’ve never been a very good group member (of any group) so I don’t think I will be setting off in the direction of finding another group to “join”. For now, I AM angry to find out the truth behind my instincts of pulling back and observing what and why certain things went down as they did. Losing a major part of my adult life to belief in something good and desirable that ended up not to be such. I feel I was duped, taken advantage of. I feel a bit lost and want my time back for how it could have been!
As far as rooting out the evil parts, to get to the good heart of scn. It hasn’t happened yet and I don’t think it will happen. It’s too ingrained into the hearts, minds and culture of a cult bent on destroying itself with its lack of heart centered policies backed by a donation mongering ruthless leader and a damaged founder.
It is scientology’s history that got us to this place and I think it is our job to push its ugly head out into the light of a different time and culture to see if for what it is. Expose the bad of what the cherch has done so those practices are stopped…. one way or another…. while we move on to better lives.
Love bomb.
I thought I was one of those touchy-feely people who wants everyone to love one another, up until even a few weeks ago.
F*** that.
War is ugly, and war is what this is.
This “THING” called scientology must be eradicated, and scorched earth policy is the only method all of us must embrace.
Do you think disturbed creatures like LRH or David Miscavige and his creepy minions would ever show any mercy or compassion on you?
Nah just kidding, I’m all into forgiveness, but I demand contrition and serious, serious atonement first.
So get ready to lick public bathroom floors with your tongue, David Miscavige, if you want any forgiveness from me.
I read this in a novel last night:
“Religion is for people who are afraid of going to hell. Spiritualism is for people who’ve been there”.
Works for me.
No offense intended, please.
To each his own, etc..
Sinatra said it a different way: “I’m for whatever gets you thru the night…” .except he included a bottle of Jack Daniels as a possible solution.
I like that Aqua. Seems to have some truth to it based on people who have “been to hell and back”.
“Religion is for people who are afraid of going to hell. Spiritualism is for people who’ve been there”.
There are other catagories:
Philosopher
Sage
Seer
Yogi (one who practices direct perception of our true nature)
There is a vast unbridgeable distance between a Jim Jones and Mahatma Gandhi or MLK
All were interested in spiritual matters. One legacy is infamy and one legacy is the hero.
They all believed in God and things transcendent. One was a madman and one a wise man.
I remember hearing the following:
When you die and IF you get to Heaven, you will be surprised by WHO you SEE there……
You will be MORE surprised by who you DO NOT see there……..
Works for me…..
I arrived on the Freewinds on the day that the Church took possession 15 Sept 1986. In the months that followed the crew were trained to march by 2 crew that had been in the military (Scott Campbell was one). After we all got pretty good at it some senior execs came aboard and we marched for them.
That was the last time we ever marched.
Later I heard that one.of the execs had said “You are.supposed to be a Church ” You look like a bunch of Nazi Storm Troopers.
Later, I heard that they had started marching uplines. I guess that they did not want us to be better Nazis than they were.
I did not intend to leave my name off of my comment. I want the Gestapo to know who I am.
Awesome Bill!
When you solve a problem with auditing you’re using a mechanical contraption to bypass your own awareness: you’re substituting your intuition for an electronic dowsing rod of the soul and every step forward in one area of your life through auditing will be counterbalanced by a step backward in another precisely because the spiritual world will not be dictated to.
Robin Lawrence, I’m just curious: was that your experience when you were audited?
No, I mean I have had a minimal amount of auditing when a kid cause I was born into it, but no its more general observation of others. I’m org-rat 1003 by the way, I don’t know why it randomly says my name instead sometimes, doesn’t really matter now I guess.
I understand. Thanks for answering, org-rat.
My view Robin, is that if we are remembering actual and real memories and inquiring into their nature, then I call that having a realization.
But if I am running fantasy space opera and other unrealities because Ron says so then that can become hypnotic.
Running real memories can yeild positive new knowledge.
Running Ron’s delusive memories can be hypnotic. I have memories of running both.
And that is why Scientology is so difficult to extract from our cognitive faculties. Truth as falsehoods and falsehoods as truth; cognitive dissonance.
I remember times in auditing where I thought:
“I can’t find this incident that Ron talks about. There must be something wrong with me because Ron is the wisest man in the history of forever”
Those were the times I made stuff up in my mind and labeled it as truth. That was a self hypnotic experience no doubt.
Those were times were Ron’s Altitude bypassed my intellectual sovereignty and reasoning skills. Those experiences were the spawning grounds of cult mentality; imagination as truth.
Yes but you’re going around the back way: the harm that auditing does to you and that you experience consciously as a ‘win’ is not temporary. ‘Tech, win, blowing charge’, listen to the saccharine superficiality of the language. Scientology is a counterfeit of a true spiritual path. It has nothing to do with spirituality. I strongly urge you to reconsider.
Robin, I don’t believe that anyone can speak for another. I did the whole bridge that existed at the time I was in. Since then, through many decades, I’ve found no “harm” that the tech did to me. And it was only a few months back that I ran a simple earlier similar incident back to my childhood…and blew a lifetime of charge and pain in moments. And I did it standing in my kitchen.
I’ve long since given up deciding for others what is “right or wrong”. What seems “the back way” to you might very well be a frontal assault to another.
Using a mechanical contraption to detect things below the level of conscious awareness is not a frontal assault it’s a cop out and it is deleterious precisely because it can occasionally work. There are other things going and other factors of which you remain completely unconscious. But if your only goal is feeling as happy as possible as quickly as possible and as easily and conveniently as possible and you think truth is just a game we play and is intrinsically worthless, then don’t give it another thought, cause in that case it really doesn’t matter.
I have taken back my power from any ism, group think or authority.
I now rely soley on my own ability to differentiate between the unreal and the real according to my present understanding.
To take it to a radical analogy:
The Volkswagen is a great car but Hitler was an evil man. I do not project Hitler’s evil into the fact that he was instrumental in the creation of this car.
And my appreciation of the Volkswagen does not blind me to Hitler’s evil; differentiation is my god and authority.
There is good and bad in everything. Sorting it all out is our task.
I didn’t say there was anything wrong with relying on your own intelligence to determine what is real and what is unreal; I said there was something wrong with relying on an E-meter to determine what is real and what is unreal. Those two situations are opposites.
Oh, ok, sorry I misunderstood. Yes I agree with you.
The only difference with your analogy to the Volkswagen is that Hitler didn’t make a claim that the Volkswagen would reach speeds in excess of 5,000 MPH and could hold 100 people, oh and then fly around the universe. No, VW no doubt said it’s top speed was 50 or 60MPH and it held about 5 people and it didn’t go airborne.
I worked on the ship with LRH and also at Culver City with him (secret apartments before moving to La Quinta), La Quinta and then Gilman Hot Springs. I never saw any OT abilities but I did see a very angry, rather evil man. I further checked with my wife Lois and my 2 sisters that were messengers from 71 until he disappeared hiding from the feds in about 78. I have never once heard of any special powers that he was capable of.
I see your point. In that regard my analogy does not fly.
But my point is that even bad people can do something good. That was my only point.
Clearlypissedoff I have certainly made the case for Ron’s diabolical nature. It’s been my hobby for some years now. I have been demonized by apologists. A status I do not mind in the least. Ron had a pretty dark dark dark side.I feel comfortable using the word evil to describe much of his behavior and sick twisted doctrines.
But for you its not a hobby. Your boy is separated from you because of Ron’s psycho side.
I cut you all the slack in the world to be clearly pissed off. And pray your son wakes up and you guys are together again.
I’m so sorry you and your family have to go though this.
Thanks Brian. I appreciate your kind words about our my family’s situation.
My sister who was on the Apollo with me is no longer involved with anything SCN but is also on the “love and forgive” hobby horse. My answer to her is that if you were being kicked in the nuts every morning (when you think of your son) how can you love and forgive them.
I could not advise someone in your situation to live and let live.
Your outrage is the sane reaction of a loving dad. If you didn’t feel that emotion something would be wrong.
I stand with you and say,”fuck them.”
Brilliant. Fucking brilliant
Hypnosis is not a dirty word. A simple act of introspection may not necessarily involve “hypnosis” (at least in the way you define it). Auditing, however, inarguably induces a trance state (as do numerous forms of therapy tbf) where introspection scientology-style can occur. No bad thing, per se…as long as said state is not abused by the therapist and/or its governing body.
“Inarguably”??? I studied and practiced hypnosis in my early years and nothing I ever experienced in scientology fell into the realm of hypnosis.
Then I suggest further study.
Superb article, Brian.
Brian, reading what you wrote today pointed up why I’m glad to be part of this blog experience that Mike offers.
We’re all coming from our own viewpoints to share here. Sometimes the viewpoints are similar and sometimes they differ widely.
But yet, we still come back – why is that, do you think?
I think its because Mike gives us a safe space..He knows what a safe space is and he provides it.
The good, the beautiful, the bad, the sad and the ugly – it all comes out here, and its all OK.. Its a safe space for each of us. Thanks, Mike.
“But yet, we still come back – why is that, do you think?”
I think most of us here are died in the wool philosophers who love ideas, communicating them and hearing them.
And maybe we keep coming back because something in us is resolving itself by inquiring into Ron’s psychological influence.
I keep uncovering things that bring me back. One delusive imprint I recently uncovered and began resolving is the save the world mindset.
I did not realize it but I still had these impressions below my awareness level.
Remembering and resolving is why I come back. And it can be fun also.
Imagine if Mike Rinder ever Marty Rathbun’d all of us? (new verb for being betrayed… “you’ve been Marty Rathbun’d!”
Mike Rinder always struck me as being trustworthy, while in all those years of Marty posts and videos, Marty always struck me as being untrustworthy…. a know-it-all asshole alpha male, trying to be the biggest monkey in the zoo ape exhibit. His recent betrayal does not surprise me one bit.
I posted lately on Marty’s site with false contact info, but even now I feel like I need to take a shower after watching those disturbing videos. Wear a body condom if you visit Marty’s embarrassing sell-out blog of the Bitch of Miscavige..
I was the opposite: I always liked him and I think that made me less inclined to observe anything that some people saw as red flags. I still like him and feel more sad for him than angry at him. Given that he was doing many far reaching things to try and make amends for his past and did, in my view, make amends possibly, I couldn’t understand why so many people were so critical of him in the way they were. Now, everything’s changed, and it’s just terribly, terribly unfortunate.
O/T Mike – I’m going to be at the Baptist church event. If you need any help, let me and Mr. Hole know. I’m trying to decide on just One question. That’s gonna be hard! Just email me.
Oh this was a great read. Listening to Michael Jackson while reading helped. Good vibes. So yea, that’s good stuff!! But the scientology needs to separate entirely from SCIENTOLOGY da dun da da. Don’t you dare try to give them advise on fixing!!! LET IT DIE so miserably and horendously so as to never …. Look, love and light is great!! But let the rot turn to black dust that disintegrates into nonexistent anti-dust motes. But the song I was listening to ran out and there is a much more frantic shrangarble flowing to my brain, effecting my comment on your cool post.
I want to recover from my time in Scientology. I don’t believe that this recovery includes looking for or finding any good in it. If I can just get over it, I will be satisfied.
I’m going to once again use this blog as an outlet for what I’m going through:
No cries for pity, got it? Just looking for an outlet. This is what it’s like to have your legs cut off. Let that be a lesson kids, don’t go walkin along the railroad tracks.
__________________
to realize….. that just when it was gettin good…..
just when things were getting interesting……..
I threw it all away.
I got sucked in. I got suckered in. I got pulled in. I got trapped and lured by friendship – my best friend…. convinced me to join them in a trap and give up the rest of my life.
They”rescued me” so that I could “go free”… and thereby…..
give up every day henceforth.
Give up all thinking and feeling for myself. Give up all deciding, all original thought, to drink from just one well, and to worship that well. To let that well provide all of the answers, all of the advice, all of the safety, and be the answer to all. To have that one well also become my conscience and guard. To provide me with a self policing mechanism so that I would CONTINUE to drink from that one well by my own policing and self correction.
So that…..I might pin every hope and every dream on that one well.
To defend the well, to guard it and sing its praises, and feel like the luckiest person ever for finding it, and kudos to me, for being so smart and special as to have recognized the rightness of the well.
Stepping back…………….
it’s a little tiny dirty mud puddle. It’s no well, it’s not clean or right or anything at all. It’s a transient and temporary filthy little blip mirroring the sky and taking all the credit.
For all the good….I might as well have gone into a coma 40 years ago. I’ve awoken to find that for all intents and purposes, my own growth, exploration of ideas, learning and growing as myself and for myself…. stopped…
The keenness, the thirst, the attitude, the daredevil, the headlong rush into life – taking on new ideas and positions and opinions changing and tossing aside…
simply stopped.
All of the manifestations of possibility and growth of a life and a mind were then simply funneled into confirming and reconfirming and recommitting to all that was cult. I was fed the lines, but then I sought them out. I worked for it, I studied it, I paid, I sweated, I kept my nose to the book and the iron hand gripping the back of my neck was my own.
They can now carefully confess to me their conversations behind my back, “she seemed too smart to be fooled by such a cult”. It’s like, they’re expelling long held breaths.
But carefully, for it’s not safe for me. I may have awakened to find I know nothing more about anything than what I had learned or formed as opinion by the 9th grade field trip…
I may sometimes cycle like a mad monkey on a bicycle – from shock to exhilaration to devastation to numbness to crawl-in-a-corner hollow eyed wasteland…..to….tiny glimmer of hope breath held fragile settling….
but it’s mostly gotta all stay hidden.
That’s not stuff for prime time. Careful words to careful ears only. I mustn’t worry them or scare them with the technicolor truth. I’ve become a super pro at lies to cover the moments of weakness when I may seem a bit brittle. ..to cover when my tissue paper facade droops with salt tears.
To wake up was painful.
To find that every single bit was just a lie….
To really wake up further, was painful still…
to begin to realize all that I lost, all that was wasted, all that I missed…..
was (is) crippling
to do it alone….
in secret…….
that’s a whole other knotty twist.
Yes, there ARE a few ‘safe’ ears – for guarded bits of truth
and we do have these fearful whispers in the dark on a “safe” website
but it’s just too small.
It’s just a few drops in a day long ocean fraught with so many many tiny sharp knives.
Stripping away the lies, the thought patterns, finding new ways I’m still so thoroughly mind molded it’s like a giant scar. I can’t see THROUGH IT.
I HAVE to shut up as soon as someone hurts himself. I’m incapable of speaking while they grab their arm and grimace. I know that an engram or lock is NOT being formed. Matters not. It’s too deep.
I can damn and mentally try to swipe away the “instant answers” and evaluations trained and practiced for almost 828,000,000 seconds….
I can right myself, as I time and time again stumble on the sharp jabby little reminders of things I could have done, things I used to be keen about, things I had hopes for, things I used to dream about…In That Long Ago Time Before…..
It’s just that it’s all so long. It’s all the day, it’s always just a moment away from the thousandth fleeting thought or reference…
It’s a lot of alones in quiet. See,…. because I want to broadcast every bit of it. I want to decry every lie out loud. I want to refute, to repudiate, to go, “YAH, and THAT’S BULLSHIT TOO!”
It feels like I NEED to do that. Holding it in hurts, and it’s just another way that I’m doing this all to myself. STILL.
I want to be able to scream out the bleakness, the loss, the confusion, to somehow share it with the right ear, the one that will talk me back off the ledge. The one who would fully understand why this IS a ledge type of deal. Is there such an ear?
My break was pretty much an instant tear, one minute fully in, and then it was just all gone. It was very violent mentally and did have a terrible catalyst.
Everyday, it just feels like a Stranger in a Strange Land.
I wish there was a manual.
(aaaand that’s the kind of thinking and wishing that got me into this mess)
consciousness is excruciating.
…….
over and out. Time to go find a kitten to hold.
So eloquently written from the heart, soul & mind of a truly wonderful person. You just touched me so very deeply & completely to the core of my being……Thank You “Secret”….
I couldn’t have said it better.
Thanks for sharing that Secret For Now. I hope one day you don’t have to be secret anymore.
To be clear, I have moved beyond Scientology. I am not trying to sort anything out for myself.
Except maybe the wrong knowledge that I learned at such a young age with such a young mind and brain.
But you learned and changed and relearned otherwise. Isn’t that a part of the human experience? Who of us learned only the “right” things?
It’s all learning. Everything has an element of learning. This view has helped me over the rough spots in my life. Somewhere in the darkness is a glimmer of understanding when we have the attitude of student.
We are all psychological alchemists if that is a value we cherish.
I’ve tried to write this post like nine times and then erased it – I feel compelled to acknowledge what you’ve written but don’t have the right words.
I just wanted you to know that you’ve been heard. And that you can come borrow my cat, even though she’s not a kitten anymore.
I love kitties ?
SecretForNow, you have a friend in me, and I’ll be sending out some positive vibes to you in my thoughts, if such things exist. Congrats to you and all the best!
That was incredible, beautiful and so raw! I don’t want to follow up your words with someone hollow and pat sounding, so I’ll simply say – I HEAR you, my heart genuinely hurts for you and what you wrote was poignant & powerful!
Thank you for your ears.
Thank you for the support.
and kittens. <3
Thank God for stubborn old Helen Geltman. Chris Reeve had money on account when her with he came to L.A. and wanted it transferred to Celebrity Centre so he could get auditing there. Helen wouldn’t do it, and Chris wasn’t going to spend more money at CCLA. So he left $cientology, sparing us from the horrible prospect of a “Superman is a $cientologist” PR campaign. Glad I came across your Kumbaya meandering; reminding me how $cientology is the biggest aggregation of bullshit ever assembled.
I was on lines at Frank and Helen Gelman’s mission in the 70’s. Were you there at that time?
Yes Gail, I think I started in 70 or 71. It was when Chick Corea and Stanley Clark were on lines. Brian Sheen was one of the course sups.
Chick Corea; there’s a name that pushes a button for me. He always seems to fly under the radar. As a jazz musician myself, I’m sick of the way the jazz press and critics sing his praises all the time without mentioning scientology. Okay, undeniably, he’s a giant of the music – but he also gives his time and money to supporting scientology, not remaining just a passive member. DM is no jazz fan, but I suppose he’s only to happy to have a real creative musical artist (not a Hollywood star) under his wing.
I just read an article about some of the big names in classical music who supported the Nazi regime, purging Jewish musicians from the Berlin and Vienna Philharmonics and agreeing not to perform “Jewish” music. Furtwangler, Von Karijan, Geiseking and Strauss are some names. The classical music world has gone pretty light on these artists. To my mind, Corea falls into the same category: such a brilliant creative artist! Let’s not mention any of negatives.
Apologies for the digressive rant. I needed to get that off my chest.
Boy oh boy, Skip. You sure didn’t get it.
Yes he did. He got it according to his own experience. And you got it from yours.
Some people have experienced terrible pain and betrayal MTC. You may have not. Just because you did not does not make Skip’s experience less true than yours.
It’s called granting beingness.
Hey Skip, I could have really named anyone who advised me to listen to my mom. Helen’s integrity or lack of it is not the point.
My point was that someone asked me to listen. I’d been training to listen on TRs. The bullbaiting training really did help because my mom was pushing every button and I was exploding on the inside and hungered for verbal retaliation.
This training allowed me to witness my mom’s state of being, allow her to get things off her chest without me making it worse by being defensive.
It was a beautiful thing.
If you’ve read any of my posts Skip I have been a passionate critic of Ron and his tech.
This essay, for me, was a step back from my experience and see that we are all human beings first before we are anything else.
Some folks got good things from Scientology and some folks were terribly harmed. I am trying to create space for both views. Because both views in fact exist.
Would I ever advise anyone to become a Scientologist?
Not on your life.
But just like I respect Jehova’s Witnesses right to practice their religion, I also respect my view of it that it is not a practice I see value in.
Brian, as usual you are the voice of reason and fairness, granting beingness to each widely differing viewpoint. That’s either a gift, or a skill, or a mix of both.
I’m going to rant a little.
Why should it ever be hard to grasp the concept that SOME beliefs and practices help SOME people, while at the same time they don’t help OTHER people, while, at the same time, OTHER practices help some OTHER people…WHY the F is this difficult to understand?
There are objective experiences and there are subjective experiences. Both exist!
One of my aunts on my father’s side became an Evangelical at the age of 53. She had an epiphany, a hosanna or halelujah moment, when, upon the death of mother, she realized that, no matter who would die in her life, she would always be loved, totally loved, for herself, just as she was, flaws , warts and all, by JESUS. She would never be unloved. Jesus loved her and would always love her. That was her cognition. It brought her great comfort. THAT WAS HER EXPERIENCE and it was NOT objective, it was SUBjective. For HER, it was real.
When I was a teenager my late mother’s very good friend told me that when she first married she could not conceive. After 10 years she was desperate and scared that she’d never have a child. She was a Roman Catholic. Her priest told her to make a Novena – I think that’s the term, I’m not Catholic. Anyway, she did, She started doing Novenas regularly and became pregnant soon afterwards and had 2 more children after the first – 3 in all. She credited the Novenas with God or the Virgin Mary allowing her to become pregnant.
Now, I ask you: how does one deal with people who share these sort of wins and experiences?
Intensely personal experiences, subjective experiences, close to the hearts and close to the emotional “bones” of people who share that their lives were changed for the better/problems solved/happiness or abilities’ restored, etc etc. etc. etc. what do you say to them?
How about this for an answer: Acknowledge what others share about their wins and you would want your OWN acknowledged.
So, what I do – and this can be tough because I LOVE to debate; I grew up with 2 debaters as parents – what I MAKE myself do when someone is sharing what may well seem far-fetched and ridiculous to me is 1) Listen, 2) Understand, and 3) Acknowledge that I’ve heard them.
I don’t have to AGREE.
Because, you know, the real truth is, I REALLY DON’T KNOW.
Maybe the Novenas DID help my mother’s friend get pregnant. Maybe my aunt’s experience DID change the course of her life…I really don’t KNOW. I have my opinions, but that’s essentially all they are – OPINIONS.
End of rant. Aren’t you glad? 🙂
Not a rant; wisdom 🙂
Thanks.
Skip, “scientology is the biggest aggregation of bullshit ever assembled.”
You nailed the first TRUTH that all current “ins” must realize before they start the recovery.
They all know that truth, deep down inside.
Sorry, I’m not quite buying Brian’s can’t-we-all-get-along argument. As a never-in, I’ll take his, and others’ word for it that they’ve gotten some good out of scientology. I’ve seen that “just listen to the other person” demonstrated – having nothing to do with scientology – and thought it was incredibly valuable. I’ve read just about all the “anti” classics, watche Mike’s and Leah’s aftermath and watched a plethora of Chris Shelton’s vids. Scientology is an unmitigated evil and the world would be better without it. Chris Shelton nailed it one time (my paraphrase): Hubbard was a total charlatan who ended up drinking his own snake oil.
I do agree with Brian’s last paragraph, as it touches on the essence of Christianity: love your enemies, “forgive them for they know not what they do.” This is what Christian’s are called to do; no one said it was easy. I’ll think on this a bit more.
Hello Mr. Bix Trumpeter. 🙂
I can understand your feelings about Scientology being evil, considering the sources you’ve watched/read/listened to. No disrespect to Leah or Mike. What they’re showing all has to come out in the wash for the subject and for the people to be healed from their shocking experiences.
I got in in the mid-70s. I must insist that there are two Scientologys at play here. One is the post 1986/93 Miscavige reign of force, narcissism and degradation where Scientology itself, the subject, started being altered until it was changed beyond recognition in present day.
Then, though Ron started losing his balance like a man who’s had his shoelaces tied together in about 1965, it really didn’t hit the Scientology public until the early 90’s under Miscavige.
And there is also the difference between the Sea Org members’ experience and the general public/staff experience. The Sea Org people were put through a bigger and bigger hell as time moved forward. I would suggest that most SO people should consider studying PTSD and find a way to be helped with that. Being in the SO was like being in a gulag in most places. Threats, beatings to the extreme to the apex of the abuse of Scott Campbell.
But being a public person, early on, we had a lot of wins because we weren’t abused, at first. No IAS so no IAS regges. The SO was new so no heavy recruit cycles. We were allowed to study our interest in human nature and organically find the answers we were seeking – or not – but the journey was, all in all, peaceful.
So, while I respect your right to your conclusion(s), I would like to add to your realm of consideration that we who say we have had gains, did, actually have gains and are not delusional or “need help” to see the truth we are (supposedly) denying. Sure, we all see the abuse and that’s why we’re out. But there is some meat to Scientology because it is based on the old masters, because Ron quotes them directly or has based a lot of his research on the old ones. 30,000 years of thinking men, I think he said. If you want a good chuckle, read the “Emerald Tablets” by Thoth. Very similar stories to mountains blowing up and people being stuck inside them. I read that and thought, “Hmmmm…I wonder if this is where he got that from?”
So there’s my 25 cents worth (inflation and all).
Blessings to you.
Hi Indie long time……you already know from our discussions we share many views. I share your point that as a public, for the most part I also had many life changing and pleasant experiences. Most of it I do not regret, only the last 3 years when Flag got into the picture with all the bait and switch and suppressive disconnection stuff. A persons gains are subjective and relevant in the context of their own lives and their own experiences. Attempts by others to invalidate or explain away others gains in Scientology are gas lighting or have an angle to pitch or didn’t have any gains. Staff in Scientology seems a nightmare from hell and you are correct, PTSD is something they might profit from looking into. The argument that everything in Scientology is rotten to it’s core doesn’t help (or blow charge) a person recover if he/she has to agree it was all BS when for them it wasn’t all BS. Truth is simply truth and it doesn’t fly when there are arbitrary conclusions forced upon them especially when they are still recovering their senses.
Agree 100%
Thanks for spelling this out so nicely.
Loverly thoughts, Indie8Million and well phrased. And it’s not only what happened but, more importantly, what we individually did with it. Some are bitter, others thankful. And they may both be “right”.
Thank you, Indie. I’m glad we can discuss things here on this forum without getting into the all-too-common flame wars that are all over the internet. I’ll do my best to keep an open mind about this.
Metta back to you.
My dad was a trumpet player in the big band days.
And yes I agree, Mike has created a great space for diverse views.
I can’t wait for season2!!
“Then, though Ron started losing his balance like a man who’s had his shoelaces tied together in about 1965, it really didn’t hit the Scientology public until the early 90’s under Miscavige.”
Then why so many leave in the early 80’s?
Brian this is excellent. Thank you. For the past week, two?, I have read all the blogs, and thought how sad it was that the exes, Indies, banned bloggers and never ins went berserk, bile all over the COS marty blog. It’s almost like that game of musical chairs I read about.
It’s a distraction, in my opinion, but reading this essay today helped me, going through some family drama.
But I am continually amazed by the outstanding, communication skills I see on these blogs. Everyone writes so well. That is yall’s superpower. If used together?….
“But I am continually amazed by the outstanding, communication skills I see on these blogs. Everyone writes so well. That is yall’s superpower. If used together?….”
That’s a nice compliment, Gravitysucks. I like your “If used together?…” thoughts.
Brian. Thank you. You said all that I’ve been trying to say.
As Mike has even said, He knew both Ron and David Miscavige. David, according to Mike, didn’t really want to help anybody where Ron was all about helping people. That’s why he did the work.
Having said that, oops, he pulled a few boners and did some things that weren’t in line with that purpose. He also seems to have lost his mind later on in life. Where’s our empathy for an elder who is ill? Glen Campbell gets Alzheimer’s and everyone is reverent for the loss. Ron is manipulated and lied to and stolen from and we beat up the victim.
All is not black and white. Ron certainly wasn’t. Infinity valued logic comes to mind.
Hat’s off to you Brian. Well said.
Well, I doubt I ever said Ron was “all about” helping people.
The problem with the Glen Campbell comparison is that he didn’t promise everyone immortality and freedom from the reactive mind and R6 bank and cause over MEST and no more amnesia on the Whole Track. It’s why the final state of Hubbard is significant as it does not match the promises made and still being sold to believers.
Hi Mike. Sorry to have paraphrased badly. I just recall that you said something in his defense that he did have an urge to help people, compared to Miscavige. I appreciate the clarification.
Good point that, about what he promised.
My personal feeling is that Ron squirreled his own brand of tech in that he didn’t apply much of it to himself. Thought he was the exception and above the physical universe so couldn’t be effected by it. Hence the later craziness. That’s my personal thought about it. Plus, Paranoia the destroya.
You’re dead on right about how it shouldn’t be promoted like that in this day and age where we’ve had 67 years of time to see the results or lack of.
I’m not saying that all of the tech was perfect or that all those states can be achieved, only that people did get help to one degree or another and I feel that the baby shouldn’t be thrown out with the bilge water, I mean, bath water.
Hubbard uttered somewhere about the discipline and intelligence of application ….etc. I happen to agree with this statement but notice he did not always match the walk-with-the-talk. His utterances in writing to Bill Franks and David Mayo about the “real reason” people depart having to do with ARC breaks and then NEVER CORRECTING HIS OWN TECH speaks volumes about his condition. This is the tricky part for former Scientologists in my humble opinion, how do you sort it all out? I finally settled on a solution, inventory and acknowledge my gains, and take responsibility for them. Hubbard nor the monstrosity he left behind have no claim or can take no credit in my personal case, and in all honesty it would be futile for me to hang responsibility on them for my lack of courage in leaving earlier. I wrote the checks even though I saw the cracks in the wall. My gains are my gains and the relevance of them in the context of my personal existence does not depend on any other agency for validation. Nor does Hubbard need to be seen as a “good boy” for my gains to have meaning.
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Indie Million, well said.
Great essay, Brian…loved the open, compassionate, tolerant and kind spirit that came through in all your words!
What the Co$ needs is more straight, simple talk like yours concerning exactly what the corporate cherch needs to STOP doing, RIGHT NOW, if it’s serious about accomplishing any of its extremely ambitious goals, instead of just lying about them and forbidding parishioners to find out the truth of these matters for themselves through normal discourse, discussion and debate, just like normal, educated adults do here and everywhere else in the world all the time.
“Quit being children” is the pithiest shorthand there. But the equally important flip-side of that coin is: “Quit letting others treat you like you were children!”
You’d think that a group which sincerely believed in their advanced states of being, consummate communication skills and sparkling clear perceptics (all 52 of them) could find somebody (anybody!) to interface with the world beyond the bubble. But that’s simply not the case.
Differences of opinion are to be valued and honored, not criminalized and fair gamed! But when you can’t even speak your own mind; talk with whomever you like about what you like; read and research anything that you like; and speak to whomever you like when you feel like it, then you know for sure that you’re involved with a very high-control, high demand group, i.e., a cult.
If it wasn’t a cult we’d be having regularly dialogues with the cherch, instead of this incompetent, ineffective, “mean girl” nonsense. No one’s going to believe it, so just stop. MR is going to kick up a little dust for his 15 final minutes of ‘fame,’ then we’re back the main event, which has a direct audience of millions and ramifying waves of effects in many more, through Twitter, FB, blogs and a thousand other channels that could never be stopped or even slowed, not if the cult spent billions.
“Dialogue or die” just about sums it up. Reach out, say your piece and shame that tiny devil who’s been telling you what you must do and can’t do for far too long.
So true Harpoona, it’s so childish really. They have to read Mike’s blog on The L Ron Hubbard playbook on critics.
If they have (whoever they is ha ha) the philosophical balls to separate the good from the bad they need go no further than Mike’s blog.
It’s all there. Just dump all of those sick-twisted-paranoid-megalomaniacal doctrines on critics.
That would be the de-thug-a-fying of Scientology.
OSA…… you know I’m right?
Love it…let’s all work to de-thugify $cn, starting at the top!
Damn, you said it better than I was trying to…
To those who have felt better, had gains, etc: I wonder why it is, you think, that such enormous extents of control must be exercised by Ron? If this is truly about helping YOU, why is it YOUR behaviour which needs to be policed? (Exhibit 1: KSW).
If things were indeed not true if they were not true for YOU, why are differences of opinion punished so very harshly (exhibit 2: the Bolivar memo) Don’t forget who was usually the target of the fury of the criminal organisation known as the “church” of $cientology: ex-members.
A most excellent article. Thank you Brian.
Moving beyond the limitations and incompleteness of a reactively defensive, aggressive, locked-in viewpoint is the way to greater understanding and to resolution.
“I also do not mind people being critical of the spiritual side of life, saying it’s all bs. It’s your experience and I honor that, from your view, it is reasonable and logical. I get the argument. Especially after the betrayal of Ron’s promises of standardly bringing pcs to stable exterior with full perception.”
So true! To be fully trusting, then to be completely betrayed by those that you’ve placed implicit trust in, is truly one of the toughest life lessons that you can be taught.
Once folks have been completely betrayed by a false religion promising to confer on them miraculous spiritual powers that no one – not even the founder – has ever achieved, it’s easy for them to disavow even the possibility that another, much less egocentric spiritual/transformational, path might indeed exist and could be worth following. They get turned off to all religious and spiritual pursuits by being traumatized in exactly the same way that raped and molested RC altar boys lost their religion — or, even more demonically, in the way that they kept it and went on to practiced it on the next generation, just as they’d learned to do from their own betrayers. $cn is like that too in the way that it’s created a similarly secretive, insular and rigidly hierarchical organization structure, where the crimes and abuses that its perpetrated against its own parishioners couldn’t exist without that same kind of high-control, high-demand environment.
Indeed, one of the principal mortal sins that Elron committed in foisting this faux religion and false spiritual path upon us is that, once you wake up and fully reject it, the intensity of that rejection can very easily lead to a reflexive and unreasoning avoidance of anything that even vaguely resembles $cn — which can generalize to a very wide variety of other spiritual paths, by virtue of the fact that Elron pilfered prodigiously from so many different spiritual traditions, psychotherapy models and literary genres and story lines, then incorporated them into his own whacked Creation Story, as if they were his very own original and inspired creations.
It almost seems like he designed it that way on purpose in order to “dead agent” every other potentially valuable spiritual path and transformative practice that exists, has existed in the past or could ever potentially exist in the future. It’s just the kind of move that you could expect from someone whose head was regularly inundated with vast king tides of utterly mad gibberish, guided by a heart so dark that it even had to hide from itself by fragmenting into the thousands of personality shards that he hallucinated were degraded discarnate beings come to haunt him.
Note for those who’re currently trying to conjure imaginary space alien spirits: Stop! The EP of the process that you’ve been running is to end up with exactly the same “case” that Elron had in his final years…not good, not good at all!
Well said Harpoona. I’m glad you made that comment.
Speaking of the founder not having miraculous, spiritual powers – you are so right. That is what makes it so hard for me to grasp how people still believe in anything he wrote or said.
LRH was a failed OT. He could not even commit suicide properly near the end of his life. He let Sarge get away with providing too low of current from the emeter when he ordered Sarge to modify the meter to kill him.
People can believe whatever they wish and more power to them. I personally believe that the earth is flat and one day I’m going to walk to the edge and jump… or something…ok, maybe not….
The abuses of the cult must end. Even if they end the obvious abuses like disconnection, forced abortions, elder and child abuse, crime cover ups etc., even if this all ended they also must stop robbing people of their life savings for donations to empty buildings. Their entire structure and tax exemption must change.
Oh, and I’m really not a flat-earther. I’m a Jedi Knight!
Thanks, CPO. You’re exactly right, if Elron really was a failed Oatee who died the same kind of miserable demented death that any other old, sick, demented mere mortal would, and if lil davey lied about those facts and covered them up, then not only is Elron’s sole claim to authoritative status pretty much destroyed by the actual circumstances of his death, but anything ‘good’ that might have been involved in the practice of the faith during the founder’s time was surely tainted by lil davey’s lies, which were just made to keep the myth of a super-powered Elron going so that the BIG Con could continue, but with him at the wheel from now on..
Harpoona, if you wouldn’t mind, please clarify the following for me: when you state that LRH was a failed OT, are you inferring that being an OT is possible, and, if so, who do you know of anyone who is or was a successful OT?
Actually, never mind; you didn’t state that LRH was a failed OT, you said “IF” he was, etc.
Regarding spiritual powers read Autobiography of a Yogi.
It will either be a revelation or you’ll think I’m a deluded but job.
I’m fine with any outcome.
Oh wait!!!
Maybe if you don’t see things the way I do I will have to destroy you!!!
Mwwwaaahhahaha lol
Go ahead. Make my day…oh, wait, I like this one better..
“So you’re gonna have to destroy me, eh? Well, go ahead. Do you feel lucky? Well, do ‘ya, punk?” 🙂
I’ll read that book, Brian.
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Outstanding post, Brian! Simply wonderful! Unbridled, unconditional love is a game changer. It can be tough, but, it’s worth trying. Thanks for an inspiring post!
You’re right, OSD. Unconditional love is THE game changer. Its ancient truth, ancient wisdom. its in all the religions and its even in the fairy tales (Beauty who truly falls in love with the Beast; the Princess who loves the Frog and he turns into a handsome prince). This is what we all want and crave – to be loved utterly for ourselves, for exactly who we are, so that we are then “free” to change ourselves, because WE want to change. Ah, yes, intensely workable, and mostly impossible to do 🙂
Excellent post. Little by little I’m turning my disgust of all things Ron, and I’m having compassion for him. He thought he could do it all by himself. Pity. Just goes to show, no homo sapien can do it alone,and there’s no such thing as homo novus, but there is will, and lrh had will! ” Do as thou wilt” in my opinion, was the religion Hubbard modeled.
Thank you Brian.
Mike should you miss a day, not too worry, as we know you are doing valuable work. Thank you and Leah
Easily one one of the best posts on this blog ever! Excellent points and very well communicated!
Thank you Brian. I may not agree with all of what you say but you’ve put a lot of thought and passion into this article. Mike and Leah are probably now fully coming to terms with the commitment and passion necessary to put truth and sanity into the wake of Scientology and hopefully soon will finally get enough momentum to achieve a result at the head of that organisation so as to cease the abuses. I find their commitment astonishing and am humbled by them.
You’ve tackled a subject as broad and as volatile as life itself. Hubbard indeed was a victim of his own personality and as you so rightfully point out, the students of his teachings who followed him without ever questioning his motives helped him forwarded his agenda that the critics of Scientology need to be destroyed. No worse of a generality could be employed upon and instilled within passionate people willing to sacrifice all for the greatest good for mankind than that. A whole new dark age accompanies whatever else organised Scientology considers ‘standard’ in the pursuit of spiritual awakening within it’s technology, in which for some, it truly achieves. However, many, many aspects of Scientology Policy and operative procedures require immediate purging from the subject. You can’t kill off the whole subject now that it is here, that’s impossible (it has already blended with many other things) and would be a thoughtless crime in itself to have that as a personal agenda imo.
It would be possible to write a large book about all of this but my thoughts are already becoming circular in nature as Scientology is so full of contradictions and hypocrisy. It is difficult to place and deal with the fact “context” is often sacrificed or grossly misunderstood when your personal experience and understanding is viewed by others. Apparently everyone has their own advice on how others should behave and react, regardless of the context.
I will say, from where I sit with it all, “love bombing” is simply a tool of life, and it can be used for good or bad, but it’s not an efficient enough agenda in itself.
I’ve had to share some pretty harsh realities about life with others away from Scientology and within Scientology, (as we all have) but the good thing is you do get to meet some fantastically rational people along the way. When they becomes friends, many of the burdens of life are infinitely more tolerable. There are a number of people who frequent this site I would like to call friends, you included.
“You can’t kill off the whole subject now that it is here, that’s impossible (it has already blended with many other things) ”
I’m not aware of a single mainstream field or practical science technology that’s incorporated any of Elron’s “researches,” such as they were, within it; nor am I familiar with any spiritual practice or psychotherapy model which has adopted its methods and procedures.
One of the most unfortunate legacies of Elron’s anti-science, anti-establishment mindset is that anything that might have been valuable to others outside of the cult has been prohibited from being shared with anyone except those inside of the bubble, but even there, free and open discussion, questions, interpretations, additions, revisions, etc. are strictly forbidden.
Where it’s been blended together with (expressly forbidden) other practices by Indies, such as Marildi, it’s a tiny, tiny number of aging folks who are definitely NOT passing on $cn out in the field to a growing number of young folks. It seems to be withering on the vine out here in the real world, suggesting that if the cult didn’t use such extreme retention procedures and wasn’t such an effective form of mind control that it would fragment and disappear, just as so many cult’s of its 60’s era vintage have been kind enough to do 😉
This is where I completely disagree with you Harpoona. Why do you place so much emphasis on something having to be mainstream and must be scientifically proved and relied upon for validity? The scientific field is strewn with highly competitive charlatans too, bought and sold like an auction by vested interests. The medical research field sports some of the greatest minds mankind has but also those that endorse poisoning as a legitimate form of money making or career move. You seem to advocate that something is wrong if someone doesn’t agree with what you consider legitimate sources or validation. Your level of awareness is yours, not mine. Applied to any field, for example art, I feel you would flat line an artist’s work if broad agreement wasn’t forthcoming. Do artists insist on passing on their talents to the next generation btw? You seem to think if they don’t they can’t be legitimate.
I don’t begrudgingly accept something like a reactive mind or valences exists, it does in my observations of people. How Hubbard treated or explained it is beside the point as far as I’m concerned and his business angle is/was disgusting like any other charlatan or film flam man organizing an enterprise. Brian’s explanation above is brilliant how he characterized Hubbard’s think imo.
I find it amusing sometimes scanning the anti Scientology sites as I just happen to know a number of ex’s who post there but they all sort of refer to or infer Scientology lingo or concepts to explain things, especially to make it wrong. If that isn’t a blend I don’t know what is.
I don’t want to live in a test tube world like yours, but tell me what “expressly forbidden” aspect of anything do you insist I have to agree upon for your argument to have legitimate influence over my thinking or acting? I don’t think you have any idea of who or what or when I tell to someone or something to fuck off! But to even come close to insinuate I’m a Hubbardist is to invite a reaction out of me most would consider memorable.
Scientology or whatever version of it is here to stay, even if in history. It certainly lives and breathes in the legal arena, not to mention the social media or even the film industry. That movie, “The Master,” will show up on the movie section of most outlets from time to time. Lots of blending I reckon. Scientology is even defined in the dictionaries of the world and occurs all through the internet and encyclopedia sites. Where does you head live?
“Why do you place so much emphasis on something having to be mainstream and must be scientifically proved and relied upon for validity?”
Why? Because it works! You can build bridges with it which don’t fall down; you can use it to get to the moon and back using it; Smallpox was eradicated from the face of the earth by following its methods; and we’re even communicating right here in the cyber world, based on the technologies which were derived from the principles discovered with it.
I could on and on, for days, months and years to give examples of exactly why it should be accorded the authoritative status that it deserves, but the bottom line there is that works in ways that are objectively verifiable, replicable and based on the work of many, not just one person…in short, the exact opposite of $cn!
“You seem to advocate that something is wrong if someone doesn’t agree with what you consider legitimate sources or validation.”
If it were just me who considered these sources to be legitimate or who was judging validity, then that wouldn’t be in keeping with the scientific method, but it’s not – legitimacy, validation, replication, etc. are derived from a very large community of folks who, working together, establish them…which is the exact opposite of how $cn was developed.
Besides, my primary thesis is not: $cn is ineffective and designed to defraud the gullible; it’s that $cn has failed to submit its claims to any kind of objective process of evaluation. and here’s the kicker there: The early decision to depart from the scientific method was made by the founder. I’m not trying to disprove it; I’m saying that it’s never been validated in the first place through the widely accepted, traditional means of doing so that have been so successful in the ways that I provided a few examples of above.
“Applied to any field, for example art, I feel you would flat line an artist’s work if broad agreement wasn’t forthcoming.”
I’m afraid that you have some fundamental misunderstanding of what the scientific method is and the difference between science and art, which I’ll leave you to sort out on your own and not try to school you on it here.
“I don’t begrudgingly accept something like a reactive mind or valences exists, it does in my observations of people. How Hubbard treated or explained it is beside the point…”
No it’s not because Elron came up with the term to begin with; it has no meaning other than what he was attempting to vest it with. It has no meaning outside of the $cn world of pseudo-science. There’s no real thing in the world that the words “reactive mind” single out. Don’t believe me? Well then, try to define “reactive mind” in non-scientological terms. What is this supposed real thing that Elron named the reactive mind? It’s Freud’s subconscious and unconscious rolled into one, but only those aspects of the unconscious and subconscious that have to do with pain and, er, well, unconsciousness.
These are all figurative terms that folks used to describe mental phenomena that they had no way of detecting, measuring or experimentally researching at the time. That quit being true very soon after Elron came up with his hare-brained mash up of other people’s theories and terminology in the 50’s, and now, some six plus decades later, it’s a completely outdated, anachronistic approach that’s long since been abandoned.
“I don’t want to live in a test tube world like yours, but tell me what ‘expressly forbidden’ aspect of anything do you insist I have to agree upon for your argument to have legitimate influence over my thinking or acting? ”
None, you misinterpreted what I was saying in the sentence from which you took that quote. Here’s how I put it there: “Where it’s been blended together with (expressly forbidden) other practices by Indies, such as Marildi, it’s a tiny, tiny number of aging folks who are definitely NOT passing on $cn out in the field to a growing number of young folks.”
Those “other practices” are “expressly forbidden” by the corporate cherch, not by me.
I’ve mentioned this before, but I’ll do it again here because it’s a key understanding to have: I’m not here to argue with you about what you’ve found to be personally valuable to you; no one is in the position to make that determination but you because you’re claiming an entirely subjective benefit. However, as soon as you, or Elron, make an objectively verifiable claim (e.g., improved eye sight; eidetic recall; stable exteriorization with full perceptics) we can now evaluate those claims in a standard way which has been incredibly successful in sorting fact from fancy, build office towers which don’t collapse; GPS systems that actually locate our physical coordinates without error and the like.
$cn used to make objectively verifiable claims regarding the abilities that were supposed to be gained after attesting to clear and OT which NO ONE has ever demonstrated, so after six plus decades of NO RESULTS, I think we can safely conclude for the moment that Elron made demonstrably false claims regarding the efficacy of those auditing processed.
But of course, since science is always open to new data and the revision of prior positions based upon empirical evidence, I’m always willing to take a look at any claim in which you or anyone else can actually demonstrate the truly miraculous super powers that you’ve attested to having achieved…please, step forward and do so if you can!
But if you can’t, and no one else can either, then doesn’t that pretty much completely invalidate $cn’s most important claims. How could you continue to trust and believe in something that has no support for it at all? That makes no sense whatsoever. If on the other hand, your claim is just that your experiences felt good internally or provided you with insight that is subjectively valuable to you, then I’m not disputing that you sincerely felt whatever it is that you felt or thought whatever it was that you thought.
“Scientology or whatever version of it is here to stay, even if in history.”
This is another of those future predictions which we can objectively evaluate over time. $cn’s active membership sure seems to be contracting rapidly in the present, with estimates of a total of only 25-30k active members given by many. So, is there any objective support for your assertion that it’s “here to stay”? I’d say that it’s the exact opposite myself. Sure, in 20 or 30 years there’s likely to be about the same number of $cientologists as there are flat-earthers…which is exactly the same breed of pseudo-science nonsense that it should be grouped with.
Unless $cn reforms itself fundamentally and gives up its anti-science position, it will mercifully go the way of the dinosaur…indeed, it’s about 90% extinct already!
Scientology at this time is an extremely dead/negative subject to the mainstream, Always has been hasn’t it?
I just don’t agree with your stance on this one. Hey, not everyone hates war & conflict. obviously, and it goes mainstream time and time again. So that’s OK with you – it works, just depends on your perspective. Sure works to make money and change political boundaries.
There’s no “unless” Scientology does this or that to any of this discussion. it’s not a person, just a criminal enterprise. Will the Mafia ever go honest is a better question?
We are friends I Yawn. I hope all is well in your world 🙂
“You can’t kill off the whole subject now that it is here, that’s impossible (it has already blended with many other things) and would be a thoughtless crime in itself to have that as a personal agenda imo.”
That would pose no ethical dilemma. Scamology has NOT “already blended with many other things”. There is ZERO net gain for humanity with scamology. One could erase it from existence and the world would be BETTER off.
However, one doesn’t need to do that. Only to get the word out that it is a dangerous cult/subject. It is already taking care of itself.
Well said, Wynski. I have absolutely no clue to what was I Yawnalot referring to when he said that “Scn has already ‘blended’ with many other things”????????????????? That is SO untrue, indeed! And about this other comment of his :
“….and would be a thoughtless crime in itself to have that as a personal agenda imo.” (About “killing off” the subject of Scn)
My personal opinion is that Scn’s texts are dangerous in so many insidious ways, that allowing it to exist is ACTUALLY the crime, and not the other way around.
Rather than give you my personal opinion I am going to enrage some of you and give you some of what LRH said. This quote is not verbatim and I do not claim that he applied it himself ” IN TIME.I EVEN LOVE MY ENEMIES BUT ONLY AFTER ENSURING THAT THEY HAVE NO POWER TO STOP US”.
Are you feeling OK, Dead Men Tell No Tales Bill Straass?
Bill, I don’t think I’ll ever love Hubbard or scamology.
That is totally fine, Mike.
Mike, seriously, I don’t think it is necessary to put an article up every day, especially when you are so busy with the new episodes. The people who follow your blog will get used if you skip days.
Although I appreciate when there is a new article every day, it is much more important that you can take you attention and intention where it is more important. We are so spoiled but that shouldn’t put you under pressure to ‘deliver’.
I agree, there are many previous essays that are so good that they deserve re-posting. Indeed, as the cult goes back to its dirty playbook in anticipation of season two of Leah and Mike’s Cult Busters series, some of those earlier postings are exactly on-topic and extremely informative to newbies to the blog and everyone else who might have missed them.
I agree, Mike. We love what you do, but don’t kill yourself over it. A blog post every day isn’t necessary! It’s a great goal, and I admire the commitment and dedication it takes, but all of your fans will understand.
I also agree with pluvo and Hapoona, Mike. An article a day must take some time to conceive, write,edit, and post. In essence you are working at least two jobs until “Leah and Mike’s Cult Busters series” season two is done. While I love the balance here and the group, I can stand missing days as it will be worth the wait.
+1
Oh I don’t know… Mike, you’re doing brilliant work and I can only imagine the media commitments and the expectations of you must be overwhelming at times, especially if you’re not in it for money or a career move. Of all the people I can think of that would be the most rational about Scientology, especially knowledgeable at it’s upper levels, it is you. Rathbun crashed and burned. Presently via Leah there’s a spot for you on the world stage to expose Scientology for what is really is. For that I can only say, do what do feel you have to and best of luck.
Mike,
I’ve been reading the comments from the wonderful people on this blog letting you know how understanding they’d be if you’d ever have to miss putting an article up for a day or two.
I’m observing a great deal of understand about this, lots of solidarity with you. The generosity of spirit of my fellow blog posters, their reassurance of their love and concern for you has inspired me, moved me deeply to the point where I now need to jump in and say
Screw all that.
I need my Rinderfix. Regularly. Once a day. Gotta have it.
Here are the facts:
There’s no methodone for this type of addiction. No 12-Step Program.. Going cold turkey is out.
I am too far gone.
My former identity has been submerged, possibly obliterated.
I’m RinderDependent.
I am now this – identity.. A kind of THING that has a life of its own….whoever I once was no longer exists. She’s gone, never to return.
I’m Aquamarine, now – first, always and forever.
In short: :
YOU CREATED ME, MIKE!
NOW LET ME LIVE!
PS: Mr. Rinder, this is Victor (Dr. Frankenstein). No worries. Aqua is being monitored. She’s under sedation now. All has been contained. Carry on with your good works, sir.
You see, sometimes in her mind she confuses the two of us.
Your comments today are a scream, Aqua. Thanks for the laugh.
How about my son being given approval to speak with my wife and me. 829 days and we don’t even know where he lives, his phone number, if he is married or has kids.
Screw the cult and LRH’s BS.
+1!
Definitely +1
your website for him is lovely.
I’ve been wondering for months how you manage to post every day. I completely understand that you are very busy and will inevitably have to miss some days and very much appreciate how hard you are working on Aftermath. I’m sure I’m not the only one who feels this way. Thank you Mike, for all you do.
Thursday Funnies, Valley OTC Notes and similar topics which just point out the current stupidities of the CoS are repetitious and could be omitted allowing more time for back and forth discussion on worthwhile philosophical essays like Brian’s.
True. But these are a historical record. Thus I will continue to publish them. Where else would these be found for future reference otherwise?
Nearly everyday I TRULY BELIEVE someone new might appear on this blog for their FIRST TIME….. Maybe they are “still in” and need to know more about the lies and deceit they’ve been spoon fed for decades, maybe someone who “blew” who has GOOD information to add to this blog, or maybe like ME, they are “never ins”, who knew little to nothing about the “denied disconnection policy” that truly MUST exist due to families being separated by a “belief system”…..
NOWHERE else will these historical records be found in THIS format for present & future reference. Sometimes a cartoon format is somewhat more acceptable that reading a long philosophical essay that is very informative, but takes time to read and in SOME instances, may not be completely understood by never ins or others.
I find the Thursday Funnies really NOT so funny, but they certain cut to the center of the matter in one quick and understandable to the point way.
Mike, you are one Hell of a man……you and Leah are a team to be reckoned with & may you both continue to have happiness and love in your lives. Family is important, and I hope that what has been taken from everyone through this hideous “belief system”…. is returned to them…..
Auditing is a hypnotic process. Your gains were real, but the process by which they were achieved involved hypnosis
Eileen – it’s not hypnotic.
Eileen,
Did you experience hypnosis when you were audited? If so, how did it feel? Did the auditor command you to do things or say things that you felt compelled to do? Or is the experience all just a blur?
Wow! Your article was absolutely amazing. Thanks so much for sharing!
This balances things out very well. Thank you!!! I think the religion that brings people together with Love is the best religion ever.
Awesome Brian. Thank you. Wish your picture would have come through – I just get an x in a square.
Reloaded. Showing up now?
Yes, thanks
Yes, I can see the picture now, thank you. ☺
Awesome post! I hope everyone including myself can learn from it!
Hey Mike, it’s missing the pic
Excellent! This is the real truth and the real solution.
Love it.
I look back on 1966-1969 as Camelot. Auditing and training were going strong and adherents were happy. I saw the lack of material happiness of the staff of the orgs and figured that they were happy enough and that Scientology was their havingness.
Then the much feared sea orges showed up and took away the carrot and brought out the stick. Camelot disappeared once again. That time and place are now but memory.
The ideas continue and are alive. They are on the web and available in several small pockets worldwide. Maybe that is more a reflection of the few worldwide who want, and are ready for, the tech.
As for Torquemada and his Inquisition, the latest incarnation, they too will pass.
The answer Brian, IMHO is YES!
If we take the closing sentences from Dave’s remarks from the most recent Prisonwinds Voyage into hell:
” While beyond that, let it be said: there are people to free, kingdoms to liberate and empires to win. But you have to turn rebel before you begin — which you did. And from which there is no turning back.” DM
we can extrapolate that which all of us out here on the fringes are doing in spades!
Yo Dave,
I’m going to give you a big ‘AMEN’ to Your closing statement on the Freakwinds good buddy!
Yes, there are people to free. Top of the list are Your SEE ORGE staffers. Then all of the public and lesser Org true believers. But make no mistake Dave, they will have to make that change themselves. And yes, we ARE HERE TO HELP! Put a check in that box Dave.
Yes, we do have to turn rebel before we begin. OK. Been there, done that, and by your own decree we are rebels. Refer to the goldenrod you issued on me on or about Feb. 17,2013. That should make me an official rebel Dave. So check that box too.
Yes, there is NO TURNING BACK! You can take that one to the bank Dave. I personally will never rest and each day I will make sure another person is made aware of the truth. In fact just this morning I was having my teeth cleaned and my hygienist commented on how glad she was to have seen the A & E series so she could warn her kids about the evils of Your Cult ……. Dave. I mentioned that season two would be airing soon. She commented on how unbelievable it is that Your cherch would do the things it does to its parishioners.I told her it was a lot worse than that* ….. because it is Dave. So check that box too Dave.
* Why is Your Cult ‘worse than that Dave? Here is why good buddy. We know that you and your goons at OSA (sorry OSA but you guys and gals should simply stop) use the information that we rebels post here on Mike’s site as ‘evidence’ when you show it to our kids as proof of how bad we really are. Yes, many people will not comment much less even let on that they are ‘out’ so as not to rock their relationship with family. Not to worry Dave, your days are numbered and it pleases me to no end to understand Your misery. $cientology will not survive this truth!
OK ….that was a rant …………….. but it was fun! And by the way kids, if OSA shows this post to you without editing off this little bit, remember, you always have a place to go if you need. I live in the same house you were raised in so you know the way home. Love to you Haley and you Philip. Phil, your dog Suka is well and happy but I know misses you. She is getting on in years but she still howls her hellos! Dad.
Outstanding post, Coop! And I love your rants! Please keep it up!
??
❤️
Brian, I enjoyed the article, but you lost me at the end. “I’m a believer and a knower of God. I pray. Prayer is an electromagnet emanation of the power of goodness. It is quantum activity. It is an OT power.”
I was watching a video by a woman who left Mormonism because it was so oppressive, only to deeply embrace Christianity, which has, at the heart of it’s “love and peace,” the threat of eternal punishment if you don’t do this, accept that, or believe this. I grew up as a Christian and know it intimately.
I’m sorry you haven’t yet understood that all these belief systems have similar agendas at their core: men who seek power, control over others, and, of course, money. Believe one, believe another, what’s the difference?
I don’t mean to be critical. 🙂 Just disappointed.
Just to split a hair…Church LDS is Christian, they profess to believe in Christ as the Son of God, and his teachings.
Yes, good point, Gravity, but the woman who made the video was now saying that it isn’t Christian. I guess technically they are. Sort of. I think she is now drinking from a different glass of Kool-Aid. By the way, I am now reading a book by an escapee from Jehovah’s Witnesses. There are disturbing similarities to Scientology.
Yes and they also claim to believe in Christ.
I disagree that the LDS is a Christian based faith. If you research the entirety of the LDS teachings including what they teach about Christ and compare their entire belief system to the Bible – they aren’t even close.
According to BOM, in 3 Nephi chapters 8 & 9, the Mormon Jesus levels 16 North American cities with earthquakes, tempests, fires, and whirlwinds, killing thousands of men, women, and children to “attest to the crucifixion of Christ.” But doesn’t harm anyone directly involved wth his death!
Technically they believe in Jesus, and they have several LDS created videos proclaiming that.
Hello Carol, my main point was to compare the entirety of the BOM to that of the Bible as concerns not only who Jesus is but also all the things taught by Jesus. The two books differ on so many important points so how could this be the same Jesus? Just mentioning Jesus doesn’t make a religion Christ based. There are also teachings about Jesus in the Koran.
There isn’t a comparable passage in the Bible to the one you’ve mentioned and this doesn’t agree with what is in the Bible concerning the crucifixion of Jesus so again, it can’t be about the same Jesus.
I agree, Just Hummin’ Along. I realize my comment could be taken as support for Mormonism, and that is not my intent. I wanted to point out just how different their view of Jesus is. The idea of Jesus wreaking havoc on innocents turned the key that led me out of that false religion.
I must mention that this blog, as well as Tony’s and Chris Shelton’s, assisted greatly in helping me see through the lies of my chosen cult. Hubby is still within their influence and quickly shuts down any criticism of his church so I cannot discuss my research with him. But I can use another “high-demand religion” as a discussion tool and a reference point.
Not that this is all about me, but I do want the writers and commenters to know that they are also helping people who were never in Scientology. Thank you.
Hi again, thanks for the clarification, much appreciated.
I’m a never in and I have also found these blogs so valuable to learn not only just what the Scientology “doctrine” is but also to see all the different affects it has had on so many. The range from it wasn’t too bad to I still deal with issues to out right cursing of anything LRH is heartbreaking. I had no idea about any of this.
Glad you are out – sometimes, though, it does need to be just about you – being selfish for a time is the only way for you to gain back your independence (so to speak) and then once you are in a better place mentally & emotionally you can start just being you again. (You need to regain your “No that is not ok with me!” response without the guilt or shame)
Saddened to hear about your hubby – one thing I’ve learned is you can’t force anyone to accept or reject any religion – it is a matter of the heart & mind and they just have to come to their own decisions in their own time.
You wait and you love and you wait and you love, repeat, repeat. But never give up. If he finally comes out he will need to know how to gain the freedom you have gained so much more and need a very soft place to land.
Much love to you both.
Thank you for your words, Just Hummin’ Along.
Ken, it sounds like you grew up with the Protestant fundamentalist version of Christianity, but that’s not what Christianity is really about. I don’t think you can extrapolate from your negative experience that “all belief systems have similar agendas ath their core.” They dont.
Bixntram, it was a Southern Baptist oriented church. Good call. And I know all Christianity isn’t quite the same. I have experience with the Catholic Church and was a member of a Methodist Church (in my previous marriage, even though I’m an atheist now–did it for my wife). I really liked the ministers at the Methodist church (actually most ministers seem pretty charismatic). But there is as much evidence that Christianity is true as there is for Scientology. That’s the bottom line. And people NEED to belong and believe, so to me, casting off one false belief and taking on another, regardless of how good it now makes you feel, and regardless of how emphatic people are about how THIS one is the Truth, is the point I wanted to politely make. Someone who is indoctrinated by Scientology is probably a candidate for indoctrination elsewhere, but I would hope the cycle could end when they see the light and flee from Scientology. If they do. Just my opinion, based on my own experience and study.
Hey Ken, I understand your view. It’s a judgement I have as well.
I’m a meditator. My spiritual world view is from the east. I’m not that concerned with faith and belief.
Ethical living and meditating is my practice. And this practice has led me to an experience not based on bigoted religious dogma.
I’ll give you an experience I had to try to clarify:
Some years ago, in a deep state of super calm meditation I experienced an amazing joy and happiness. It was overwhelming. There I was with eyes closed. No thought, no objects, no expectation, no past or future.
Yet there I was, in complete stillness and experiencing an overwhelming causless joy. A joy that was for no object, no relation, no hope of acquiring anything.
Then and there I realized that what I was experiencing was me, the soul.
A brilliant light formed within me and I realized that happiness is our nature. We don’t have to search for it. We just need to learn to relax and turn our attention within to perceive it.
Concurrent with that ecstatic awareness was such a feeling of gratitude for my life and all life.
Then I felt my awareness expand past thoughts of me, Brian the ego, into a feeling of kinship and oneness with all life.
My spiritual reality is not based on any ism or dogma.
I have proved to myself that there is a state of awareness beyond the body and mind.
I can have that experience anytime I wish. It’s a state of causless love. A love that needs no object to inspire.
Truly an unconditioned love. Then I am so grateful to that dynamic in life that is universal. The unified field of all life and consciousness. Undifferentiated pure being; God.
Brian, I totally understand. I teach tai chi and qigong, and have practiced qigong since 1987. I’ve loved philosophical Taoism since I read Bruce Lee’s “Tao of Jeet Kune Do” in the mid-70s. I have experienced similar things that you have described. It is what they describe as “sartori” in Zen, as I understand Zen. It is being one with the universe — part of everything. If this is what you describe as God, I’m with you. 🙂
Satori, not “sartori.” 🙂
“A brilliant light formed within me and I realized that happiness is our nature.”
That’s – wow, I don’t have the words but I get it. I get it.
My elderly Uncle who passed away 12 years ago always said this:
“You can be as happy as you WANT to be”………..more or less Joy & Happiness comes from within….
The root meaning of pray is “to ask.” Some people pray/ask God. Jesus, Allah, angels, spirit guides and so on for guidance or favors. Atheists, agnostics and people who believe consciousness is entirely a brain function wouldn’t bother but I don’t know if some people in those categories might consult what they consider to be their “higher self.” A few months ago Alanzo had a topic about a couple of well known atheists who meditate. I listened to a bit of a podcast Alanzo posted where these atheists discussed some of the various meditative states of awareness they had experienced and it seemed to me they were just renaming some things to avoid venturing into the idea of validating “spirituality.”
If I accept that the universe started with the Big Bang, then every molecule, atom, sub atomic particle and so on had the same beginning everywhere at the same time. Whether or not consciousness was included in that beginning is part of the debate as well as who, how or what created that creation.
Peak/transcendental/satori experiences can and do happen at random with no apparent causation. These might be explained as unique chemical reactions in the brain but in the end it’s subjective with 7.5 billion opinions on the subject.
Thanks Brian.
The bottom line is that the “market” has found Hubbard and scientology to be FAR more destructive than constructive. Hence its demise inside AND outside of the church.
And, as every person who understands econ, the market is ALWAYS right.
As are you, Wynski 🙂
You are WAY too kind to me Aqua. 🙂 Glad the world still has people like you.
Eleanor Roosevelt Quotes………. It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness.
I love that quote.
Just … wow!
Thank you!