Sent in by one of our Special Correspondents who monitors the Scientology Facebook groups.
I am at a bit of a loss for words over some of this stuff. But it does give some interesting insight into life inside the bubble that is fundamentalist Scientology.
1) How pathetic. And how many people do you think are in this boat? And its not even seen to be something odd. Either that one of the most powerful beings in the universe cannot afford an emeter, or that an emeter is priced out of reach. The poor fools who have been on Solo NOTs for years, spending all their disposable income to travel to Flag for the pleasure of being sec checked twice a year, MANY of them are now broke.
This could be called the “EP” of corporate Scientology at this point. No more bank…. account.
2) OT VIII redoing Objectives — “been on it for a few weeks”…. Lotsa luck Cara. Another of the most powerful beings on earth sent back to the bottom to start over again. Amazing how they keep falling for this? I wonder how these people justify in their own minds that their astonishing wins that they wrote down and/or announced publicly when they “completed” their Grades, or OT III or NOTs or OT VIII were not quite real? No cause over life? No truth revealed? How do you “undo” being cause over life to now be posting on facebook to try to find someone to help you get through Objectives?
3) Have you been living in a cave Gloria? You cannot get people to come pick these things up for free. There are garages full of them all over the world (those are the people who are afraid to throw them away because it might come up on their 6 month check….)
4) “GAT II Purif” is better than the other Purifs because they charge you more for it. And what a remarkable result. Can no longer control her pencil….
5) Today I started AND finished… Woohoo, its lightning fast and you don’t have to do a THING!
6) Saved the best for last. A little Aussie humor about the joy of filing on Christmas — its the opportunity of a lifetime. Mind the exclamation points….
These are probably all nice enough people. I don’t know any of them.
Bubble mentality much?
Sad.
In the examples given we see the E.P. of LRH’s “Bridge” above Grade 4. Sad indeed.
Writing something good about David Miscavige is like saying
Hitler wasn’t all bad, He Built the autobahn.
Usually one is adjusting opinion to that of the majority. If I think something is true but the others in my group see it as not true then I can withhold my opinion, change group or adjust my opinion. Those that are still in Scientology either adjusted their opinion or withhold their opinion.
If I beleive in UFOs and visit a relative that is thinking UFO beleivers are nuts then I withhold my opinion. As I do not want to be considered to be nuts. That is normal day to day living procedure.
If I post on an anti Scientology blog I withhold my positive thoughts about Scientology. If I post on a Scientology pro blog or whatever then I withhold my negative thoughts. True for any communication on any subject. Those that post on facebook like the above samples are simply posting it a way they think they have to and are withholding their „other“ thoughts they have about this subject. They are not brainwashed or implated. They also know what is going on in the real world. The day they change group they talk no longer positive about Scientology. Then they are withholding their positive thoughts. Thats the way I did it. Maybe there are many superhumans that act different and always tell what they think. But I am not such a superhuman. And maybe those posting on facebook positively are also no that kind of beings.
If someone writes positive about Scientology, David Miscavige, Tom Cruise or whatever does not qualify him to be nuts, brainwashed or implated.
Things I would rather do than work on an org’s files on Christmas:
Chew on a rock for nine hours
Shave my elbow skin
Be a door to door salesperson for toilet seats in the shape of Lady GaGa
Swan dive into a swimming pool filled with rocks, hypodermic needles, and vipers
Get into a brawl with Mike Tyson
Eat lint
Get LASIK surgery from a guy who admits, “I’ve never been to med school, but I read the manual twice.”
Learn how to stop an industrial fan blade with just my tongue
Hang out with the guy who used to beat me up in sixth grade
Clean up dog poop without the luxury of a baggie
Complete a ten thousand piece jigsaw puzzle of pure green Astroturf
Systematically pull all the hairs out of my head one by one
Ride a unicycle on a tight rope over a cage full of agitated wildebeests while blindfolded
I’m sure you can come up with more.
Dave,
That was/is pure delight!
Reminds me of that process -when nothing else works-: “What is worse than_______?
Should you think of a few more please let us know at a convenient moment, will ya?
Greta
Actually, I stole these off the Internet.
Good lord, these poor deluded zombies have been regged for money night and day for years by the church and its front organizations. Now they are being dunned for money by other members so those members can buy into the scam of this “brand, spanking new version” of the church, AND they are still being regged by the church. This new wrinkle in Miscavige’s long con is going to bring the scheme down faster than anyone could have anticipated. It’s one thing for a Kool aid drinker to get teary eyed over emptying their bank account to “help COB.” It’s another thing, however, for the KA drinker to bankroll another KA drinker. There is no magic there, no grandiosity. Instead it has all of the attraction that bailing out a sponging relative has. If there is a lot of pressure to “loan” money or equipment to others, people are going to distance themselves from the church. Remember Miscavige does not run a charitable church, there are no soup kitchens, or casseroles that are baked and delivered to needy parishioners. “Needy” parishioners are more likely to be offloaded than helped.
One more thing, one of the most bizarre things I have read recently is the note from the woman who bragged that she couldn’t “put down her pencil” after she “copied” another drawing and this proved the new regimen is working. Since “copying” another artist’s’ work is not an indication of anything but plagiarism, it is difficult to understand what was positive about this.
Robin,
“Many people stay in Scientology or any other “cult” for that matter because they are being compelled to stay in some way.
For example they have a body in pawn. Like a son or daughter on staff or in the SO.
They also have other concerns about the consequences of leaving.”
I rest my case.
Excerpted from a Lecture given by L. Ron Hubbard
on the 6 December 1952, PDC Tape #20
“Let’s take the subject of Scientology and let’s see if there’s any logic involved with it at all. There isn’t a mathematics that can embrace the subject of Scientology, because it is an invented mathematics. It’s an invented mathematics that accepts gradient scales and absolutes are unobtainable.
And it is a method of thinking about things. And is just as true as it is workable. And no truer. And is not, in itself, an arbitrary, fascistic uh… police force to make sure that we all think right thoughts. It’s a servant of the mind, a servo-mechanism of the mind, it is not a master of the mind. Scientology will decline, and become useless to man, on the day when it becomes the master of thinking. Don’t think it won’t do that. It has every capability in it of doing that.
Contained in the knowable, workable portions before your eyes there are methods of controlling human beings and thetans which have never before been dreamed of in this universe.
Control mechanism of such awesome and solid proportions that if the remedies were not so much easier to apply, one would be appalled at the dangerousness to beingness that exists in Scientology.
THE DIANETIC AUDITOR’S BULLETIN
Volume 2, No. 3 September, 1951
Official Publication of
The Hubbard Dianetics Foundation, Inc.
Wichita, Kansas
Basic Reason – Basic Principles
Excerpts from a Lecture by L. Ron Hubbard
INTERRUPTION OF SELF-DETERMINISM
“What is the efficient way then of destroying the ability of an organism to
reason? It is to prevent these yes or no answers from being arrived at. It is to prohibit
an individual from reaching his own conclusions from his own data. It is to inhibit him
from acting upon his own data and to cause him to act upon data which is forced upon
him. This is the most fundamental level of aberration.
The less self-determined the organism is, the more it becomes MEST, and the more it can be controlled by other organisms in its vicinity.
To aberrate an organism it is only necessary, then, to interrupt the reasoning
process of this organism and force an arbitrary conclusion on the organism. This
organism is then owned and must be moved and motivated by its owner if it is to
survive. If it is not so moved and motivated, once its ability to reason is interrupted, it
will not survive.
Ah yes…. early ’50s Ron. I like that Ron. I like the stuff he wrote. I think most of it is gold …… and applicable truth. Too bad he did “a 180” on almost all the fundamentals from those days. He built a church on that gold and set the path to its destruction with his reverses. BUT….. we are still free to study and apply the good stuff in any area of life we choose even if it means applying it to our evaluation of the CoS and LRH himself.
“Mind control (also known as brainwashing, coercive persuasion, thought control, or thought reform) refers to an indoctrination process which results in “an impairment of autonomy, an inability to think independently, and a disruption of beliefs and affiliations.
In this context, brainwashing refers to the involuntary reeducation of basic beliefs and values”[1] The term has been applied to any tactic, psychological or otherwise, which can be seen as subverting an individual’s sense of control over their own thinking, behavior, emotions or decision making.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing
Personally, this “Special Correspondent” is a little over the top on the non-sequeteur nattering irrelevancies of these FB Posts.
1. Gudrun wants to borrow a meter. Nothing wrong or new with that, and what goes on for Solo NOTs is another issue altogether.
2. Cara is merely looking for a twin. SRD for OTs is another issue.
3. Gloria wants to sell some CDs. So do many Indies on ebay. What is in anyone’s garage is irrelevant.
4. GAT II Purif is pretty much the same deal as it was before. Lots of recent nutritional research and development has raised the bar, and I myself will also redo my Purif for the third time 15 years later as both previous ones were very beneficial to me. Newer better oils, chicken & shark cartilage, etc. is what I would add to the RD for myself. Invalidating her for what she does with a pencil ??????? (Childish)
5. Inviting others to help. I’m sure he should be sorry for that too.
Nonsense thread.
In your effort to denigrate, you missed a vital point yourself. An OT8 has been on the SRD course at Flag (centre of the Scientology tech delivery) for several weeks and can’t find a twin. What does that say about warp speed expansion?
A public is selling materials at a “good price”, thus bypassing org book stores and endangering their stats. IIRC, the church does not smile on such activities.
And when did you agree that a bridge action could, and indeed should be done several times over, despite reaching the EP?
Think about it.
100 Dollar Morgue
Keep looking, Formost. You’ll get there.
OT VIII,
Money Havingness Rundown is not such a bad Idea.
But won’t that create a boom in Religious leaders who start real estate PONZI Schemes ?
The competition for empty giant churches will drive the price of delivering NO SERVICES will be
into the billions for each loyal parishner and inflate as more Money Havingness RD completions graduate.
To CLEAR the Planet everyone will be a COB of there own church.
Of course this is silly
True story
I worked in a cash cage and when the Mafia came to town
they paid cash in hundreds for everything. After handling the money you reeked of POT
really bad.They all drove Mercedes SUV’ s
My suggestion is the Money Havingness RD be a Gardening class
and hydrophonic construction.. Now this actually works but gives you the muncies.
munchies ( still stoked from counting money)
As a help flow to parishioners who cannot presently have money, COB has just introduced the new Flag only Money Havingness Rundown:
Q: Where is the easy money?
A: The easy money is in the banks.
Q: Who owns the banks?
A: The Psychs own the banks
Based upon older and highly effective GO Tech, the EP of this new RD is “Taking money from the Psychs in order to bankrupt Psychiatry and thereby end its 4th dynamic slavery on this Planet.”
In this RD, OT’s twin up and do special course work outside the Org.
One OT studies and M9’s “lookout and getaway driver.”
The other OT studies and M9’s “safe-cracking.”
Once fully hatted the OT’s do a “Bank Job at Night” as a way to strike an effective blow against the deadly Psychiatric bank.
Successfully done jobs will result in your money flows going into super highest ever screaming affluence!
In the event of capture, we in RTC will deny all knowledge of your existence.
The Money Havingness Rundown: Dare to take OT to a completely new level of Be, Do, Have!
What does this special hatting cost?
Same shit different date – just makes you grateful that you woke up and smelt the BS. I truly hope that the folks still in the bubble, who I used to call friends get a whiff soon and have the balls to stand up and walk out.
They all need to clay demo, *rate, M9, FDS, Rollback, Sec check re: KSW and no securing until it is done and passed by your supervisor & RTC Video pass.
TM 48hrs.
I spent Christmas with my adorable 14 month old grand daughter. I could of been sweating in a file room. What a waste !!
If I were Services Exec Int, and AVEI (Audio Visual Exec Int) and ED Int, I’d propose ot set up free Ulta Emeter usage center at Flag, to loan out free Ultra Emeters to these top OT 7s that need them!
Sheesh, what skinflint thinking!
EU countries offer free bikes for citizens and tourists to ride, same should go for Flag offering free Ultra EMeters for their OT 7s my gosh!
The problem here Chuck is that you are thinking too logically. Especially when dealing with the psychotic mind numbing totalitarian cult of constant annoyance the Government Approved 501 ciii Church of Byzantine Bureaucracy has become.
Worse is the possible problems they might be having with non workable and rusty (discolored from the 9 years in storage) condition meters that on ExScn forum was reported.
I’m curious how Ron’s Org, which seems the most organized Scientology delivery organization outside of official Scientology, how Ron’s Org gets by these same problems.
I’m sure rich Scientologists would be more happy to donate towards getting sufficient materials in all their churches for the membership to share using, I’ll bet!
Chuck,
Personally I don’t think that the Mk Ultra was ever a needed and wanted item.
I use an old Mk VI and it works just fine.
Any “upgrade” or “improvement” since the VI hasn’t really been needed.
I mean the VII’s has an LCD that reads TA.
Who needs it?
It also has a needle that is too light and reacts to static electricity on the glass causing it to give a false R/S.
The Quantum is even worse and it has a variable sen which can obscure the F/N after a Tone Arm blowdown.
The Ultra is supposed to make reads 50000x clearer according to their promo.
Oh please.
If an auditor can’t see a read even using an antiquated Mathison mainline meter then he or she might as well turn their certs in for seeing eye dog.
From what I understand Chuck there are all kinds of electronic wizzes turning out meters plus you can now get ’em off eBay.
Not a problem.
Personally the Church has shot itself in the foot by demanding that anyone who is training or is on Solo can *only* use the Ultra.
That is if their actual intention is to make auditors and OTs.
But I don’t think it is.
LR
After reading this post, I realize that I have probably been wrong about something.
For months I have been assuming that the current standard of altered “tech” in the church was causing extreme damage to parishioners’ ability to think, to compose basic sentences in English, and to observe really obvious things in front of them.
Now I believe it is more likely that most of the brighter people have already left the church, leaving the not-quite-bright to fill out the ranks.
Scientology is now about holding on to the less able, by keeping them less able…
I agree with you here. It’s only the truly unable ones who seem to be left. Deprived of sleep and good nutrition, they are swinging around like monkeys on a chandelier.
A couple of other ones I know seem to be so deeply embedded that they don’t notice the boat crippling around them. They don’t seem to want to know because they think this is their last stand.
“There are none so blind as those who will not see.”
I wish I could could say it’s surprising, but it’s not. Asking to borrow an e-meter is nothing. I’ve had people I hardly knew from my org; barely even acquaintances, call me from Flag and ask to borrow thousands of $$$.
Yea, right. Let me get my check book. By the way, never, never, never loan $$$ to Kool Aid drinking Scientologists. You’ll either never see it again, or it will be like pulling teeth to get it back. And even then, chances are you won’t get the whole amount back.
Because it never ends!!
I had a Scientologist I barely knew call me from Flag and ask to borrow $15,000. Amazing. Stupid. I just told him that I’d show him how to make it… but I certainly wasn’t going to give him any money. I never heard from him again… except when I got my money back from Co$ last year and he sent me an email telling me he would never talk to me again because I wasn’t going to continue going up the bridge. 🙂 As if I cared. Hilarious.l
How many people are on OT7?
Let’s say: 1000.
Each person has to buy two meters. Is 10k per person.
Income Co$: 10 million.
Nice profit! You could make a movie about that………………..shoot is already done: “The Profit” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=063NOXxxb6s
Actually it is not aussie humor, it is german humor. The poor guy owned a great company over here, until he was completely ruined by some of the finest Frankfurt sociopaths. The company then fell into the hands of someone, whose first thing to do was inform all the printing business in Frankfurt, that the pre-owner has been ruined by SCN (witnessed that first hand). Still cant believe Peter goes on drinking the coolaide…
These people are true believers and followers.
Meaning anyone who has any kind of authority within the Church can tell them anything and they’ll accept as “true”.
Either that or are dramatizing the herd instinct.
Thus they read like a bunch of pathetic brain washed morons.
Betcha 10-1 none of these people have done any more actual training beyond the Solo Courses or studied any policy.
Much like their dear leader they are ignorant of the subject.
I do not think that training as an auditor or studying policy insulates anyone from being hypnotized.
In fact, I would argue the opposite. Ray Mithoff? He is a Class XII, OEC, FEBC, DSEC grad who is completely mind controlled? Kathy Feshbach? Another Class VIII OEC. The list is very long. And there are plenty of people who have broken away from the hypnotism who are NOT trained auditors.
Ray Mitoff’s succumbing to Miscavige and the Int Base social climate where the whole top “in the know” clique pretty much socially gangpile whoever Miscavige chose over the years to have his top clique gang pile, that is a sociological phenomenon akin to like you said years ago Mike, the “Lord of the Flies” island scenario where a manipulative dominant personality pits the secluded isolated group members to clique like savage behavior.
Ray was there for LRH, but succumbed to staying and receiving the group abuse, just like all who have stayed.
The sociological group decline at the top of Scientology still needs some full describing.
I hope Ray gets out and “decompresses” and tells his story someday.
The more that people write and detail the lives of the top clique of people still standing as the numbed top level dupes, the better. Somehow the internet news on their lives will reach them, and they’ll potentially feel compelled to tell their story from their viewpoint, but that takes months and years of outside reading to learn how to even correctly describe what they’ve gone through.
A “Re-education Reorientation to Current Normal Human Beliefs and Understandings Course for Ex Senior Scientology Executives Extention Course Checksheet” should be done as a do at home Extension CourseChecksheet, and have books to read on it, and issues made up of the best ex member writings, and best sociological research and best fiction books and non fiction books relevant.
Mike,
Bingo! That was the purpose of my comment. We need to take a long hard look at
what is it exactly we are doing with Scientology, and where are we going with it.
Thank you.
I know somebody who is data series and evaluator trained, worked as an evaluator, too. Unless they are lying, they truly believe the lies told at events.
How do you get through? That’s what I’d like to know. Those people who run around saying “This wouldn’t have happened with REAL scientology” and “Ron would never’ve let this happen”, well, I’ve no time for them. The facts fly in the face of their wishful thinking and dreams, because it is not merely a matter of action and effect, but also principles and intention. You can approach spirituality from a completely different, more open viewpoint than control, but when you think with Scientology inside of Scientology, you will just end up in the same place, because Scientology acknowledges no other avenue than itself.
So how do you pierce that armour comprised of iron-willed “I don’t want to know and everything’s just peachy”? Any ideas? Or do we wait until the walls of Jericho come crashing down?
DollarMorge,
If you are in the enviable position of still having the ability to communicate with still-ins directly, I think your best approach is to use policy to show up the outnesses rather than try to argue from the heart or from what “you think”. I wrote a commment on yesterday’s South African blog to answer a question about how the new releases and “discoveries” from Miscavige violate KSW #1. I think that approach might have some success because there is not one Scientologist who is not familiar with KSW.
If you can find out from the person if there is anything at all that they think is wrong, or an outpoint, or doesn’t make sense, and get them to talk about that and then pull out some policy or some tech and show how what they are right and how what Miscavige is doing is actually against that policy/tech, then you have planted the seed. Then you can either find another disagreement or outpoint they have their attention on, or continue to work on the first one and how it might have consequences in other areas. Then they start walking the path and seeing more and more outnesses around them all the time.
It’s not necessarily a one- or two-comm cycle handling, but I think this is a gradual, non-threatening and non-argumentative approach that will work. Would love to hear back from you on this.
Hi Galactic Patrol,
I realise it isn’t a matter of one or two talks and pointing out outnesses, but rather a long drawn-out, protracted process. My frustration stems perhaps from the fact that this person should know better, and in fact was the one who got me questioning the church well over ten years ago in the first place. Now they’ve turned into a Stepford wife? All blonde and smiles and telling me I should see the latest events because I obviously have no idea about the current rapid clip of Scn expansion? Extinction is more like it.
My experience with some other friends to pointing out off policy is rationalisations like “well, as long as management is doing 51% right, we’re behind them”. Yes, but how can you tell? As you already know, push too hard and the commline breaks, they don’t want to hear it.
I’m interested in a strategy to counter rationalisation, if such exists. Either my data series trained evaluator has forgotten everything they knew, or the hype at events for them doesn’t clash with empty orgs at all. Say off policy, you get endless rationalisation, and for that game you either have to know policy better (which regrettably I do not) or have a different approach beyond leaping at them and shaking them until their teeth fall out.
TL/DR: I agree a non-aggressive, non-argumentative approach would be my best bet. Or else *sigh* waiting for Jericho.
Thank you very much for your ideas. I will need to try them out. I have a secret weapon up my sleeve, but it’s like an atom bomb in that it might end up damaging both parties, so for now I’ll attempt the way of peace.
unfortunately , it has become very difficult to get people inside to read applicable policy. I think it is somehow seen as distrusting CoB. , checking on him and that’s a “nono”.
No matter where you look , what you try , to bring some reasonning power to the person , you are damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
I have tried every angle with my own family, and in the end I could see that they were not interested in reading policy. Just mind boggling. And I was not asking them to leave the Church or read Mike Rinder,God forbid, just check things out from an LRH basic. policy ,such as” do not engage in fundraising”.
Nope, too dangerous.
In the end they disconnected.
Then you could say that they didn’t experience out points for themselves and that would be legitimate, but that’s not it either.
It comes down to fear.
It comes down to the Julian Swartz of this world who are masters at the art of third party.
GP, This is an interesting subject, and worth pursuing.
Lovealways, thank you, you described my experience very well. Yes, they know instinctively not to question CoB. Probably they know deep down the church is no longer on policy, but rationalise it with “we need to go with the times”.
Too dangerous is probably right, especially when their (in my case) very survival depends on it, living in a network of Scientologists as they do.
Perhaps I am selfish for wanting the fear to end. Who am I to say they have got the most out of this experience?
Agreed GP +1. There’s a great book out there called, The Tipping Point, by Malcolm Gladwell, a must read. It’s a preponderance of information, crafted with care and determination that will topple a person’s “Must-not-Listen defenses. Trying to “handle” their resistance by giving them their why — in any form – will not work.
From personal experience, I resisted accepting that SCN was off the rails, until I the information I gathered from numerous sources, began to match my own experience and realty. Then it came together in a rush, literally a rush and I could not, in good conscience, come to any other conclusion.
My wife helped by not evaluating what I should see or hear or invalidating my initial resistance. These blogs and all the comments on them, ARE helping many people just like it did for me and that is why we need to continue communicating. Not just on line, but with each other, by whatever means we can.
Odd
$M
It is not easy to jump from a fast rolling train, especially if one is not aware that it is set on a crash course. The rails will just end somewhere. Not to mention that it is their understanding that the land outside the train is literally a mine field.
Usually when an object gets smashed there isn’t just ONE thing wrong at the inside. I don’t think that looking for just a ONE thing that might pierce the armor will be fruitful. It may be very different from person to person.
A posting on this subject ON IT’S OWN to determine what it was that got each one of us to finally take the jump might help to isolate some of these factors.
While leaving the SO has it’s own story, for me it was a phone call from Eileen Clark, telling me she had just visited the PAC orgs and up the coast and found them to be majorly empty.
I then realized the purpose of the S.O. of “Clearing the Planet” was not going to happen and I started to furiously do my homework and research and – voila!
Greta
Greta,
Thanks. Perhaps I wasn’t clear, but I’m not looking for the one size fits all piece of data that will light up the birthday cake. It’s more like I’m interested in a strategy for countering the endless rationalisation that some people have trapped themselves in.
You are right that it is a complex situation. There is no one “why” to explain and resolve the spectacle that is the RCS today. It has been building for decades, and people who have been in since the 70s (as in my above example), are well practiced at telling themselves stories. How do/could you write “THE END” under their fairytale?
I congratulate you on hearing and duplicating Eileen’s communication without rationalising it away, and then choosing to find out more. That’s great!
For me, it was the fear of not knowing the truth and the fear of being stuck in a losing game that drove me to look. Maybe I’m just impatient, maybe David Miscavige and his ethics officers have been the most effective of all in driving people out and I just need to wait.
Btw, anybody know of the RCS’ progress in India?
$M
Greta, Good idea to compile a survey of the reasons why people left, and what was their “last straw.” When I tell my story to Non Scn’s, many ask me, what was the one thing that made you wake up and leave. That is what we need to survey for and then make up promo about it and mail or pass our or somehow get the key buttons into realm of vision or sight to those still in so that it jogs them a bit into looking. Once they look, it’s all on the internet.
DollarMorgue,
Being evaluator trained is somewhat meaningless in itself – like all courses everywhere in any subject it’s self-referential. Passing the course means you met the criteria to pass the course, which are: to do what the course says well enough to pass the course”. Doesn’t mean the student actually knows what he’s talking about, it means the student can do what the course says the student must do.
Funny how that works, hey? Your comment about thinking about Scientology with Scientology is absolutely spot-on too for the same reason. The only way to evaluate Scientology (or anything else) is to step out of the subject and observe it. Hubbard really pulled the wool over everyone’s eyes for years by getting them to accept that it actually works in reverse! Hence folks develop that armour that says Scientology is good because Scientology says so.
As for piercing the armour, a non-trivial number of people will eventually wake up if you keep mentioning outpoints, which makes Mike’s blog and other blogs so valuable. But, not everyone will respond to that as everyone has their own personal “enough!” point and there’s no one-shot solution. People are leaving CoS individually, each one in their own good time, and for some it will take the walls of Jericho to come crashing down. That will be their enough! point – when they have lost everything.
Sad, but true. We can’t save the world complete by a wave of a magic wand. Meanwhile, just keep plugging away to individuals.
Splog,
This person has had years of experience applying what they learned in that (and other) course(s). They, at least, are convinced it works, so my question above was two-fold, as you correctly noticed: if it works, how come an experienced person cannot see reality? (outpoint) Either it works or it does not, or (rationalisation) the person no longer uses the data (too many losses, etc. ad nauseum), is being suppressed (e/a) and so forth. Thought-stopping permeates the culture, on both sides of the fence in my opinion.
You’re right about people donning the armour because Hubbard said so. I guess they see it from the inside, with all the inside’s explanations about what it is and does for them, go to bed with it, never take it off and some day forget they’re wearing it. They don’t yet have the luxury of stepping outside and looking at it frm another angle to see if there is another explanation and if that armour does something other than what they were told (like cutting the wearer off from the world when they thought they were more in communication than ever).
It’s hard to be patient when your own family is involved, but I guess (grudgingly) you, Greta and Galactic Patrol are right.
I see now I made a wrong assumption – I thought you whttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Ritesere talking in the general case, but actually you were thinking of a specific person.
You can always engage with another person if they are willing to talk to you on the subject. It seems to me from what you say that you are willing to take to them, but this person is not willing to talk to you. Is that about right? I guess then your options are limited – all you can really do is be patient and wait until that changes.
Splog
We are like tuning forks… vibrating at a high hum. We hope that as we keep vibrating at that high place… others will start vibrating there as well. I have found that it doesn’t do much good to go down to people’s resistances and start trying to push them. Then I’m trying to make a change from the same level of awareness as the problem. What’s the old saying? — “Don’t try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig.”
I think if one stays in integrity with their freedom and happiness out here and keeps asking questions… the sleep might start to come out of their eyes.
Remember… if they engage in conversation of anything “entheta” they are going to be CHARGED for SEC CHECKING. They are terrified of that.
If we stay the happy tuning forks out here…and keep asking the probing questions while we are holding our space…there will be more attraction. Pushing people doesn’t work. Maybe just being happy and saying, “I have found that…” about life here on the outside.
Just food for thought.
Zana, thank you for the old saying, it made me laugh 😀
I like the tuning fork analogy. Actually I start to feel icky when I push, and maybe it’s because I’m pushing back on their push, which is “Scientology under DM has never been better and you’re too blind to see it”. But most likely it’s because I shouldn’t be trying to force my reality on them.
Perhaps your’s is the best advice so far – let it go, keep on living a happy life, stay away from that level of awareness.
Thank you!
I have found that asking the person to LOOK is helpful….very nicely when they tell you that COB announced “Scientology is the fastest growing religion with over 10,000,000 members World Wide…I simply ask…”how many are in our Org”…which they reply – yeah, but our Org has no staff really….and there is not enough public attending courses and doing auditing because we really don’t have any auditor’s and no one has any money…and it just unravels. Then I ask them if they personally have been to other Orgs and observed for themselves? Not caring what their response is helps too…be “insouciant” … LOL
I could try that. I think what will happen is, this person is at a major org, so to them it would seem fine. I would need to ask whether what they see (which might actually look busy) matches up to the alleged size of the movement or compares to their experience in the 70s.
Not having any stake in the outcome is also good. Thanks, Blossom, and all others who contributed their perspective. I’ll chew it over and take a different, kinder approach.
Mike,
Ray Mithoff is not a good example in my opinion since totally compromised his reality and sold out to the coup.
Same with Kathy Feshbach.
Same with the few Class XIIs who are still at Flag.
Even though the majority have either left or were declared:
http://www.upperbridge.org
Same with many of the most highly trained admin staff in Scientology:
http://www.upperbridge.org//shill.htm
Also I never said it insulated one from selling out or buying in like that VIII who does nothing but sells real estate AKA “Ideal Orgs”.
That said.
If you look at the roster of most of the people who have since left the Church. You will find that most of them are trained Auditors who trained before GAT or attempted to do GAT and decided it was for the squirrels.
Also my opinion is that anyone who is trained should know better because the HCOBs and Policies state such and such and it should be obvious that what is occurring there has nothing to do with either.
Thus in my opinion anyone who is trained is even more culpable than those who are not.
Also as I’ve written before Mike. I’ve never bought into the idea that people are so easily “brain washed” and are some how turned into mindless zombies and that none of them have any self determinism left.
As far as I’m concerned that is a fallacy which will only create a ridge.
Many people stay in Scientology or any other “cult” for that matter because they are being compelled to stay in some way.
For example they have a body in pawn. Like a son or daughter on staff or in the SO.
They also have other concerns about the consequences of leaving.
Also there are others who profit from the way things are like that VIII I mentioned and many of these WISE business owners who are able to use a perversion of ethics to keep their Scientology staff in line who may be the above.
Many other reasons other than being “brain washed”.
This as far as I’m concerned is an over simplified “answer” to a situation which is more complex.
Robin:
If you look at the roster of most of the people who have since left the Church. You will find that most of them are trained Auditors who trained before GAT or attempted to do GAT and decided it was for the squirrels.
Interesting thought. Where is such a roster?
Good point Mike.
I could say the Akashic Record 😉
But I was referring to a totally subjective roster based on my own personal experience.
Then again this could be based on my personal bias being a trained auditor and knowing quite a few auditors who have since left for the same reasons I have.
Though I will say that Church never achieved this so called “Army of Auditors” it was aiming for with the Golden Age of Tech and the ones I knew have pretty much deserted.
Leaving Sgt Furry with only a ghost platoon.
I believe there’s a list somewhere on the WWP site of all the ex-Scientologists who have publicly stated, in any way, that they’ve left the church. I don’t have a link, and I can’t remember if the list includes data like highest training level attained, posts held, or the like. I recall there being something in excess of 2000 names.
And of course there’s the Indie 500 list which is more detailed but hardly comprehensive.
Thanks Richard. Anyone analyzed the list to see if the hypothesis Robin puts forth has any basis for being turned into fact?
Mike, although there is no roster of those who have left that I know of, there is one thing that will shed light on what percentage of those who left are auditor trained, and that is from your own blog.(I think it was yours but it could have been on Marty’s blog) It is the very fascinating and informative Survey you did of those who have been declared and/or left Scn. And I seem to remember that per the survey questions, when the answers were tabulated, the profile of an Indie was someone who had been in in Scn a long time, and was trained in auditor and/or admin tech.
Some things are just not for me to understand.
Re: Begging for a new e meter.
Recent email ,The indie auditors in Europe won’t touch a Scientology e meter,
as in will not go near them, period. As for needing the latest “New Materials”
try ebay, local penny saver news paper, and “Free” table at libraries.
Cara LaRose is formerly Carolyn Tomsczak. She’s the ex-wife of Steven Tomsczak, who ran the WISE Consulting Group Tomsczak & Associates.
Now the punch line: CARA IS A CLASS
VIII! And has been since at least the early 80s.
She’s a nice, soft-spoken lady. But with the confront of wilted lettuce.
Thanks War Horse,
You got me in stitches with “the confront of wilted lettuce”!
Greta
Mike, I marvel that you are still able to feel amazement at these things, after all you’ve seen. I feel kind of dazed and numb from merely reading the snippets you post here.
Actually as I think about it, it seems rather heartbreaking to imagine these poor folks trying so hard to manifest so much forced enthusiasm, despite being broke and pushed-around and invalidated at every turn.
My favourite. DRD in one day! Anyone know what the standard checksheet time is for that course ? If she co audited that one she would have had a morning to get through the theory for both of them! That includes meter training and theory then the rest of the day to co audit both twins. OMG thats so out Tech Degrades i can’t even believe she would post that.
The Drug Rundown is an auditing action not a course. If the person has done it before it or didnt have an extensive drug history possibly it could be done In a few hours.
DRD Co-Audit Checksheet is about 1 week full time. It’s possible for some to finish the auditing part in one day, but many run about 6 – 18 hours.
Wow – I just know of so many people that are financially stressed trying to get through OT7. And that was before they threw in the mandatory new meter for 5K. Unless you are very wealthy, you will become broke.
There is no end to the monetary demands.
Here is something you can do about it to save others from the same fate:
I recently did a search on Google for the term Scientology. Much to my surprise, the first screen you see (before any scrolling down) is ALL GOOD. It gets ugly after you scroll, but what is known as “the top of the fold” is really positive. The church has done an amazing job improving the results.
The first 2 links are SCN paid ads. Then, there is the church’s website. Then, there are 3 local results. In my area, you get Flag, Belleair Mission and Clearwater Mission with a map to the right. Local results will of course vary depending on where you are.
Local results include REVIEWS. I saw there were 16 reviews of Flag, 15 of which were GREAT. An average review of 4.1 out of 5. I was like, WTF???? Is Google in bed with the church because of all of the advertising they’ve been doing? I was shocked.
So, I gave them a shit review to see if it would be posted. It was immediately posted and was very easy to do. You just need a gmail account or a google plus account. You actually don’t have to use your real name, that’s up to you.
If you have any difficulty doing this, you can email me at my secure email, fridsatu@gmail.com.
You can definitely create an effect here and do it fast and easy.
As a business Google will happily accept the millions the cult is throwing their way to get the first few listings – sponsored inks – are their own sites. But in my area next under the paid listings the following entry is the Wiki article on Scn, followed by a news story about Russell Howard confirming he is not, in fact a Scientologist, contrary to what John Alex Wood would have us believe, followed by all sorts of listings for Operation Clambake and so on. I don’t know many people that would just blindly click on the sponsored links and go no further. Steve’s excellent site is the first non-sponsored one that isn’t “news”.
Good one, Sheldon. I laughed when you gave the FSO One Star. (No Stars is probably not an option.)
I particularly liked the comment from the troll A Google User from 2 years ago who was “(S)o sick and tired of the Scientology bashing!!!, and who later says “… brainwashing is how every organized religion gets you to believe the bill of goods they are selling.” Oooops!
The whole post is at 2.0 but poster gave Five Stars. Must have been rating himself on his ability to handle those sp’s. I doubt the MAA would have been as impressed.
Paul K.
Google search in my area gives first-page results of almost all anti-Scn links. The top result is, of course, scientology.org which the Church is paying to have at the top of the ratings and, it being scientology’s own website, will fit Google’s algorythm for #1 entry whether the Church pays for it or not. But every other one, including today’s news items, are anti-Scientology links. In the case of the wikipedia article on Scn, it at least gives all the data on it and not just the Church’s fluff.
So the good news, Sheldon, is that your search results in Clearwater are not universal. People can easily find out the truth through google if they will just look.
Yes, that’s good to know. Talked to someone from another area that also had some mixed results on the top of the fold. Thanks for the update.
I love when I search Tory Christman or mark Bunker on YouTube and a scientology ad starts playing. If I know enough to search those two individuals, there is nothing a bullshit scientology ad is going to say to win me over.
Cara’s SRD is expensive indeed, she has been at it a few weeks and now has no twin; in the meantime accommodations, meals and what not need to be covered and all in addition to the constant regging for IAS, Book Campaigns and so on.
But doing it after OT Levels even if you EP’d them before? That is beyond out tech, their cases are being messed up and that may be why they still keep at it; they can’t think anymore, far less see what is going on.
Right on Silvia. I read an LRH reference that says that perception is proportional to the amount of charge off the case. So if that is true, then with having OT’s redo lower Bridge as they are, that will totally mess up their cases. So instead of charge off the case, they are adding mass and more case tangles and messes. So maybe the corolary is true also which would be, “perception is proportional to the amount of charge off the case; the more charge and mass on the case, the lower the perception.” That would explain why these people can’t perceive what is going on.
Mike,
OMG. For the live of Thor!
These people would not recognize an implant, even if it hit them smack-dab between their eyes.
Scientology is a failure, by LRH’s own standards, because Scientologists ARE UNABLE to detect within Scientology itself, the ongoing mind control and brain washing embedded in Scientology.
I know this is not a popular view, but I think it has to be said, so maybe some of us can wake up and rise above all this inanity?
Mind control – check. Brainwashing? Not so sure. But in any case the good news is that actually most DO eventually see through and get out. There’s always some, very suggestible types who aren’t up to seeing the elephant gaily defecating on their feet, but my guess is that by end of 2014 we’ll be down to a few thousand.
Martin,
Thanks. The terms are interchangeable in popular Psychology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_washing
LRH, made a distinction of Brainwashing as PDH, which I think, creates a bit of confusion on Scientologists, in that it gives you the idea that ONLY forcefully means are required to overwhelm you.
It is not actually so, as LRH elaborated in PDC 20.
Conan — a key distinction in this, is that the “Scientology” being practiced today is not actual Scientology, but still appears under the same banner and is marketed as the same item. This, in my opinion is the Lie on the line. This creates the ‘wrong source’ that I see as bypassing a lot of charge for many people who believe in the Original Technology.
I had the original 42 years ago — it worked, gave me great wins.
I had the altered version in 2005 – it was a painful, slogging affair, that left me exhausted.
I LIVED the difference. The Original Scientology works, the New Scientology does not.
Like ‘New Coke,’ it is an unmitigated disaster and will soon ‘leave the shelves’ forever.
Odd
“Scientology is a failure, by LRH’s own standards, because Scientologists ARE UNABLE to detect within Scientology itself, the ongoing mind control and brain washing embedded in Scientology.”
Conan,
The above is nothing but a generalized statement with no evidence to back it up.
Just because you say it is so doesn’t mean it is.
Thus there is really nothing to confront except your opinion.
Robin,
It is not my opinion. I’m responding to the blog, and I do know personally one of the persons shown.
We are witnessing the effects of 60 years of Scientology indoctrination.
There are no excuses. As we are not talking about people born or who grew up inside Scientology, green people or not cleared yet, at least I’m not.
We are witnessing the deleterious effect of long term exposure of this cult on fully trained Scientologists and who are at the top of the Bridge to boot.
Either one is free of fixations and can detect the sources of entrapment with the use of Scientology or not.
You of course, can wish whatever you want, and you definitely have a right to your own opinions and delusions.
Conan,
What you wrote *is* your opinion and nothing else other than a idée fixe.
And yet again you are generalizing as in the following statement:
“We are witnessing the deleterious effect of long term exposure of this cult on fully trained Scientologists and who are at the top of the Bridge to boot.”
Please be more specific.
Also if you believe that exposure to anything good or bad such as a “cult” will turn you into some kind of mindless robot then I’d suggest going somewhere and playing Pokeman instead of posting on this board.
And thus saving yourself from all our cult speak.
Again my opinion or as you say “delusion”.
remoteviewed, I will have to agree with Conan, as there is now this amazing tool called the internet, you can actually experience firsthand a thousand’s people recollection of the same engram : getting in Scientology, being reg heavily, being lied to, (I’m referring to eps of the bridge, eps of being a So or a staff, or even as a sponsor) to finally realized that :
-cob controls a billion (maybe plurals) dollars when staff and public are bleeding dry
-the bridge , doesn’t work, nobody is getting any superpower, out of the ordinary of a good Tony Robbins bootcamp, (he has people walk on hot coals for about $500)
and the OT levels are a farce (see the blogs of disabused OT 3 to 8 and read about their shock when they find out about solo auditing bts out of the blue…)
-abuse of staff , by overworking them, and treating “the best thetans of the planet” as sps without any other proof than forged stats. (Debbie cook, Marc Yeager, heber Jentzsch, Mike Rinder, Marty Rathburn, those were heroes back in the days sent to a CONCENTRATION CAMP??THE HOLE??)
Now if you need evidence, go to youtube, those people are out there, with their testimony, their stories, their shocks, when the castle of lies crumbled ..
You can’t just dismiss people’s origination anymore under the label “it’sa generalization” that trick doesn’t work anymore, since all these videos on you tube tell the same story ;a story of heartbreak, abuse,mistrust , that no amount of ‘letters of wins’ will cover anymore.
the real suppression lays right there, in the belly of the Beast, but you, remoteviewed, are far too blinded to see.
I know it because I have been there, dismissing the evidences and postponing the inevitable (confrontation with reality)
Until you can confront the pt, you should try to avoid insulting the intelligence of people who see, by telling them that they are not specific enough.
we are legions, and you wish we would play pokemon.
Conan and Seer, if what you are saying is true, that’s nice. But you should abide by your own logic, as it applies to yourselves also.
If someones thinking is tainted by “Scientology”, at what point is one untainted? Is this a two valued logic system?
IMHO, you are generalizing, and your pendulum has swung in the extreme opposite direction.
Seer,
You are referring to someone other than me.
Frankly don’t give a damn what you do.
I suggested Pokeman as a viable option to wasting my time with your self righteousness and over inflated ego.
lol remote, truly I didn’t understood where you stood..I am quick to the trigger, and didn’t mean to waste your time. I want a resolution , a solution , for this non sense.
How could there be SO many evidence of abuse and no resolutions?
Just reread the letter from Debbie Cook and realized there is no more Int execs, the whole organization is resting upon the shoulder of a dictator, it’s a parody of a religion, and yet people are still coughing up money every day, and getting mentally messed up. It’s hard for me to witness as it could have been me.
Thank you for your care.
And yes 1984, still dealing with the aftermath and finding the balance, though there is not much pros any more for me, let alone for a few basic life principles, most of them borrowed from other places.
Where is the harm in looking for the truth?
I would answer one’s opinion is untainted when they can speak freely without fear for consequences. And when they can objectively see the big picture, as to what products they are buying or selling.
I think there is a brainwash which is present in mankind and it is called “blindness.” It’s an odd sort of selective refusal to see facts, and afflicts many over the course of time, sometimes in epidemics. You seem to be very much the effect of it. One day, hopefully, you will wake up and see Scientology philosophy, data, and procedure for what it is, and clear away your brainwash.
I’ve run into people who hate economics, who don’t know anything much about it. They “hate it” because they do not understand it – that’s what they mean. Unfortunately, a lot of them are Congressmen. These types typically also cannot balance their own checkbook (and don’t care – they just hope they don’t get overdraft notices between statements). I don’t much like electrical engineering, and I think electrical engineers are odd people – they all have dark hair, heavy beards, and they don’t speak clearly. I just barely know there is a difference between an ampere and a watt, but that doesn’t influence my conclusions about electrical engineering in the slightest – I know what I am talking about because I understand economics (amongst many other things).
Agreed Carcha +1
There’s something called a Missing Scene, which I believe has a decided impact on this argument. If you don’t know what a Badger is, never seen one, never even heard the word mentioned – you could actually have one burrowing in your shorts and not know what the hell it is.
If you don’t know what the real thing feels like, looks like, sounds like, etc., then how are you to know what you’re seeing?
Many people don’t get economics because they don’t understand it. Those that do, may understand it, but still not like the science of it — which is totally fair.
“scientology” as it exists and is applied today can and does fuck people over. I have seen it, experienced it and know it to be true. Scientology, as it was originally engineered works– not flawlessly, but consistently. And given the overall state of the mental health field, it certainly deserves its place among the more effective tools out there.
Perfect – no. Useful – absolutely.
Odd
Remoteviewed, you’ve just done an excellent job of proving Conan correct. There are piles of evidence out in the Internet, backed up by the fact that huge numbers of people who leave the Church also leave Scientology. Without the organized control mechanisms, the illusion that “Scientology works” often cannot hold up.
Dismissing Conan’s comment as a “generality” is one of the defense mechanism LRH built into the tech to keep people looking inward. It does not hold up to logical analysis. “Everyone makes mistakes” is a generality, but that doesn’t mean it’s untrue or that I am a psychotic SP for saying that. But if a group of people accept silly logic like rejecting generalities out of hand, you can keep them in line.
It’s all about stopping thought, and with all due respect, you’re giving us a perfect demonstration.
AnonymousG,
I agree wholeheartedly. The vast majority of people who became Scientologists are now ex-Scientologists and the so-called “Indie field” is more fantasy fiction than actual fact.
This transition from Scn to ex-Scn has been happening rather consistently right from the very start since 1950. This is one of those sad brutal facts that needs to be faced head-on at some point by all who leave the church. Hubbard’s writings and his technology only take hold and persist in the presence of a strong charismatic leader, be it Hubbard, DM or Captain Bill. Everywhere else, people just drift away and give up on the subject. My guess is that it takes about 2 years or so at a very rough average. Look over the names posting on Marty’s site – the majority who were there in 2010 are not there now, and Marty himself appears to have given up on the subject. Steve’s Indie 500 list has been stalled at 472 names for about a year – I don’t know why, perhaps it’s as simple as he has a life and has let the list go moribund.
Looking over the history of the past 63 years I find it an irresistable conclusion that what Hubbard wrote and said cannot stand on it’s own – I can say this because it simply has never managed to do it. And no amount of wishing that it were different by fans will ever change that.
Face it people – we were conned and led to believe is something that cannot possibly work.
Splog, I beg to differ. There are many auditors and supervisors applying LRH tech in the Indie field to excellent result. I have received auditing and training in the Indie field to excellent result. Trey Lotz alone audits lots and lots of pcs and creates releases and Grade Chart completions regularly through his field practice. You can look up some of his pcs wins which he posts regularly and then you’ll see that some people don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Why do you accuse me of throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
That is rather a rude thing to say and the thinking that appears to be behind it is unfortunately all too common in the Scn world. My hope for you is that you are better than that.
I am aware that there are field auditors out there delivering. Let’s list some. Trey. Ralph. Pierre. Terril Park. Ingrid. Dani’s Mission. Karen (I’m undecided if she actively audits or not, she doesn’t really say either way). Marty (who seems to be doing other things lately).
Who else is active? That’s the 6 individuals and 1 group I can think of in 2 minutes of thought.
That is not a lot. It is a few. PTA org, tiny as it is, had periods with more persons delivering in the HGC.
I feel it’s necessary to point something out about your post, you have your logic and cause/effects all tangled up. I know there are field auditors out there, I would be very surprised if there weren’t. The presence of some field auditors means nothing other than that there are some field auditors, it certainly doesn’t go to the workability of the tech. And I never said anything about the results field auditors are getting, I said only that throughout the history of Dn and Scn there has been a consistent stream of persons leaving the subject forever, and sans a charismatic personality to lead the movement, it tends to go nowhere. The extremely low numbers of active field auditors would seem to support that. If the subject indeed had the workability it’s adherents claim for it, then I would expect to see very large numbers of practitioners. But I don’t see that.
I’m sorry if you feel uncomfortable with this. I do understand why one would want Scn to continue and prosper “the way LRH wanted”, whatever that is – I felt the same way for 20+ years. But the cold hard brutal truth is that in Scn you are dealing with an indefensible subject, and that is due to the subject itself not the personalities in it or it’s practitioners.
For the few people who say the “original” Scientology worked, I imagine anything can work if you are ready to improve your life and work at doing that. And there are a few basic LRH ideas that work. So be it. What I always go back to is this man was a proven liar, an egomaniac, an accomplished and well payed FICTION WRITER who claims all of this nonsense came to him during a dentist appt (apparently his last one as he let his teeth rot). He did NOT have super powers, he needed glasses. He was totally obsessed with masterbation and abortion. Does this sound like a person you would be willing to invest yourself financially and psychologically in? HELL NO. There are so many beautiful ways to improve your life that don’t manage to destroy it in the process. I have the advantage of being a never-in, and admittedly have become semi-obsessed with learning about all things scientology and it scares THE PANTS OFF ME.
It doesn’t have to scare the pants off you, it can be merely a baptism by fire 🙂
Some parts of scientology (the lower grades) undeniably “work”, for some definition of work. Take Grade 0 – too many people complete it and do genuinely feel they are better able to communicate. Too many people complete it and others see they can communicate better.
So something is going on there. But what? No doubt you’ve sat down with a friends at least once in your life and talked through some problem they were having to their satisfaction. I think that is what is really going on with the parts of scientology that work. If you give someone a safe space and opportunity to work through a problem, they will almost always do exactly that. We humans are wired to remember and to learn, so it’s very easy for us to look at a problem we have, figure out some kind of solution for it, and feel better as a result. The result is always subjective – how would you measure anyway if someone can communicate better? What you can achieve is someone feels he can communicate better and so opens his mouth more. Their communication is going to appeal to someone along the way.
All that formal nonsense in Scientology with the exact C/S, order of questions, the meter, exam afterwards – all that stuff is ritual and has nothing to do with “technology”. It might have something to do with making the other person feel safe. I don’t think Hubbard was an evil bastard running a deliberate long con, that is too simplistic and humans just are not like that. I do think he was messed in the head, mostly clueless about life as a whole and spoke drivel. he then got to believe his drivel. Doesn’t change the end result much though.
With all due respect AG.
Who is this pervasive “us”?
You seem to assume that everyone thinks like you do and that you somehow carry the general consensus which in my opinion is a very arrogant position.
On the other hand I don’t care if you or if the generalized “us” or the “legion” agree with me or not.
Really if you think if asking for specifics is something that Hubbard invented then I suggest you get out more.
Remoteviewed, again, you’re using faulty logic. “Us” means all of the people reading these comments. It does not imply anything about general consensus. It does not imply anything about agreement. Technically, it’s not even a generalization by Hubbard’s standards, as it is referring to a specific (us = readers). A generalization would be “You are demonstrating to the entire world…” or “You are showing all Scientologists…” etc., etc., etc.
You are also correct that asking for specifics is not something Hubbard invented. However, that has nothing whatsoever to do with what Hubbard said. (Flunk for verbal tech. 🙂
What Hubbard said was:
“The antisocial personality has the following attributes:
“He or she speaks only in very broad generalities. They say . . . ‘Everybody thinks . . .’ ‘Everyone knows . . .’ and such expressions are in continual use, particularly when imparting rumor.”
This sounds good but holds no water whatsoever. (Never mind the fact that “He or she speaks only in generalities” is a generality. How is that even possible? How would that person order a sandwich? “Everyone will have a roast beef on rye, hold the mayo.”)
People do speak in generalities. Someone stands up in a meeting and says “We tested the new commercial. Everyone hated it. Here are the results.” Maybe that means it got a 95% disapproval rating. Did everyone hate it? Not exactly, but effectively the concept is dead. Or maybe it really did get a 100% disapproval rating. A lawyer stands up in court: “Move for a change of venue because practically everyone in the county knows about the case.” Does everyone really know? Probably not, but it’s a waste of time to call up 200 jurors when there’s a good chance the majority know about the case. Humans generally understand that a generality is not literal. Speaking this way doesn’t mean the comment holds no merit, and it *certainly* doesn’t mean that the speaker is an antisocial personality (by either the real definition or Hubbard’s).
SO the “Generality” idea doesn’t hold up to logic. But if you look at what I believe to be the true purpose – to stop thought in order to prevent people from hearing a counter point of view – you’ll see why it works for Hubbard.
Also note that Hubbard assumes a lack of intelligence on your part. As I said above, humans generally understand that a generality is not literal. Hubbard says that people who speak in generalities are acting as if people will take them literally. In other words, that people are stupid, and that only Scientologists know better.
And again, you are nicely demonstrating – to me, if no one else – how well this works.
AG,
You should have gone into politics.
I haven’t seen so much back twisted logic in one post in a long time.
First you accuse me of being brain washed for asking for specifics because asking for specifics is like soooooooo Scientology…
Like whatever.
Then when I point out accurately that asking for specifics was never originated by Hubbard.
Yet you insist Hubbard must think everyone is stupid because he wrote a policy on what “everybody” knew but obviously you didn’t because I had to mention it.
Think about that AG 😉
Remoteviewed,
>I haven’t seen so much back twisted logic in one post in a long time.
What was it Hubbard said about accusing people of the crimes they are guilty of committing? 🙂
> First you accuse me of being brain washed for asking for specifics
Nowhere in any of my posts did *I* accuse you of bring brainwashed. Perhaps you’re mixing me up with another poster. This would lead me to believe that you are lumping anyone who disagrees with you into “them” (vs “us”). (The us vs. them mentality, by the way, is considered one of the signs that one is in a cult. I’m just sayin’.)
For the record, I’m not convinced that you aren’t brainwashed, but I didn’t accuse you of it. 🙂
>Then when I point out accurately that asking for specifics was never originated by Hubbard.
Was there supposed to be more to that sentence?
>Yet you insist Hubbard must think everyone is stupid because he wrote a policy on what “everybody” knew but obviously you didn’t because I had to mention it.
First, I did know the policy, apparently better than you did, since I had to quote it to you. (This is why we don’t do verbal tech!)
Second, Hubbard did seem to assume that most people are stupid — it’s a symptom of the narcissism with which he was clearly afflicted. And yes, the policy does intimate that people are stupid. It implies that if someone says “Everyone knows Hubbard is full of shit” that a person must be speaking literally, not metaphorically, and attempting to lie. In other words, everyone knows what people mean when they say “Everyone knows that.”
I do agree that when people say “Everyone knows X” they often can (and should be) more specific. But it’s not necessarily an effort to deceive, and it’s certainly no basis for a diagnosis of a mental condition. Be honest, how many times have you encountered real people in real life acting or talking the way Ron said that wogs do? Schools teaching people that thinking and communicating are impossible? (Anatomy of Thought) Husbands beating their pregnant wives and saying “Take that! Take that, I tell you! You’ve got to take it!” (Dianetics) That stuff just doesn’t happen. And yet Hubbard talks as if it does. Hubbard paints a world where people are idiots – and then he presents it to his loyal followers as fact (hence his carefully-chosen word “data”). That should be a clue as to regard he holds for his beloved Scientologists. (Best Friend of Mankind, my foot.)
Again, you are following the same circle of logic that keeps people inside the Church of Scientology. You are arguing around the central point without actually addressing it: Hubbard’s concept that speaking in generalities is a sign of an antisocial personality does not stand up to logic, let alone the pure impossibility of a person speaking (and I quote Hubbard) “only in very broad generalities.”
My point, and I do have one, is this:
The only was concepts like this make sense is if the person who believes them WANTS them to make sense.
You want them to make sense. So you find ways to avoid the arguments that tear through this “data” like a finger into soggy tissue paper.
It’s the same mentality that keeps people donating to the Co$ and believing those clearly unbelievable statistics that the Scientology PR machine keeps spouting.
“We have met the enemy, and he is us.”
AG,
I never diagnosed the “every body knows syndrome” as a mental illness 😉
My own view on the PL on the Anti-social personality you cited is that there *are* definitely people who speak in broad generalities to upset others.
For example during the Iraqi War as Bush said you are either for us or against us inferring that any one who opposed his great adventure was a traitor.
“Us” referring to some broad consensus of some kind which in fact never existed especially if you read the Gallup polls at the time.
Same could be said for some low life who tells somebody “every one thinks you’re crazy”.
Also I don’t know what world you live in AG but wife beating unfortunately was quite common back in the day Hubbard wrote Dianetics. So were attempted abortions. So common that it is included in Robert Yates’ book Revolutionary Road.
Also I don’t agree with this conspiracy theory of yours that Hubbard assumed Scientologists or people in general were idiots because he was imparting information that supposedly “everybody knew”.
In my opinion this is like assuming that anyone involved in pedagogy or teaching assumes their students are idiots.
Moving on.
Yes I agree with you AG.
Like the cartoon Pogo:
“We have met the enemy… and he is us”.
Currently there is no organization on Earth that doing more damage to the credibility of the subject than the Church of Scientology.
I mean forget about the AMA, FDA, FBI, CIA, NSA, the US Postal Service and of course Smersh AKA WFMH and the NIMHs connected to them.
The Church under Miscavige’s “leadership” has managed to self destruct and what we have left is a Cult of true believers AKA “Koolaid Drinkers” somewhat like the People’s Temple or the Unification Church lead by some Jimmy Jones or Sun Myung Moon wannabe.
I guess you could compare it to Al-Qaeda as Mike does in his next post but from what little I understand of Al-Qaeda which means “the base” in Arabic has no focal point or actual structure since it is basically a network created during the Jihad in Afghanistan and never really had an actual leader per se.
This idea that UBL actually lead it is a myth that was created by the media and various authors who were probably working for the CIA to create the illusion in my opinion that that GWOT was directed toward a cohesive enemy of some kind.
Much like Al-Qaeda the majority of Scientology has become an Independent network where most of its practitioners now practice independently.
Anyway.
That’s my view on the whole scene.
>I never diagnosed the “every body knows syndrome” as a mental illness
You didn’t, but Hubbard did. He referred to it as a sign of an antisocial personality. Outside of the bubble, Antisocial Personality Disorder is an actual diagnosable (if that’s a word) condition, and a very serious one. And it has nothing to do with speaking in generalities. Hubbard’s statement about “the antisocial person” are about as ridiculous as if he said an itchy foot was one of the four signs of pancreatic cancer.
>that there *are* definitely people who speak in broad generalities to upset others.
There may well be. But would you say it’s a definite sign that someone is an antisocial person? And would you say that only antisocial persons speak in broad generalities?
> wife beating unfortunately was quite common back in the day Hubbard wrote Dianetics
A separate conversation (and no doubt an interesting one), but you’re doing a classic Scientology job of trying to shift the subject. Do you think husbands really beat their wives shouting “Take that! You’ve got to take it!” (and in the process turned their soon-to-be-born children into kleptomaniacs)? Because that’s what Hubbard said would happen.
> I don’t agree with this conspiracy theory of yours that Hubbard assumed Scientologists or people in general were idiots
Flunk: Word-clear “conspiracy theory”. This is not a matter of opinion. When speaking/writing to Scientologists, Hubbard repeatedly assigned irrational behavior and thoughts to them. He said the schools were purposely teaching people not to think. He said that before his Admin Tech, mankind did not have a successful method to run a business. (How many WISE companies are on the Fortune 500? Zero, How many non-AT companies are? Five hundred.) Clearly, the evidence showed that Hubbard painted a world that defied common sense, and he expected his followers to believe lies that were easily provable as such. Ergo, Hubbard assumed the vast majority of people were idiots.
>Currently there is no organization on Earth that doing more damage to the credibility of the subject than the Church of Scientology.
Not quite. Truth is, there is no organization anywhere doing more damage to the credibility of Scientology than the subject of Scientology itself. The “tech” does not stand up to reason or analysis. It presents no evidence for its claims, and Hubbard went out of his way to explain why no evidence can be provided.
If you will forgive my directness, it’s baloney. And the reason the Church of Scientology is failing is not just because DM is an ill-tempered little punk — it’s because he’s trying to build an empire based on something that does not work. Scientology “technology” does not work because Scientology is unworkable*. If I was DM, I’d be mad, too.
* The bits he cribbed from psychotherapy do work rather nicely. Why do you think Scientology excludes people with a history of psychiatric care? Because they’ll recognize the therapy for what it is, and are likely to point that out to their fellow Scientologists. Crediting Hubbard for the bits that work is the key to keeping them in. Blow that illusion and the whole thing collapses.
+1000
Conan, what you say is borne out by this blog every day.
Deluded!!!
Dear Gudrun, If your “friend” can not afford a meter why are you pushing her to come the Flag? They don’t want someone on the base that is not a qualified prospect. She will only be viewed as a downstat DB that can not make things “go right”. No matter what her certs say.
If she is now blocked on the bridge due to the sudden bait and switch, the “new rules”, tell her to get over it. Just like all the OT8’s that got put back on OTVll. Just because David Miscavige has once again, committed the suppressive act of “Using Scientology lines for personal profit in such a way to cause disruption in the organization or to block the flow of public up the bridge.” and you yourself don’t give a damn about it, is no reason to lure your “friend” back there for further harassment.
What kind of “friend” are you anyway Gudrun? Can’t you see your friend has had enough of this bullshit and will not be returning to the Flag Land Base?
Those left will believe and do anything to get the imagined golden ring. It is sad really.
simply brainwashed
Agree with you Rory.