Nothing over the top here.
And yet people will tell you that L. Ron Hubbard DIDN’T make absolute claims about OT and scientology doesnt make promises to achieve unrealistic things and that scientology doesn’t falsely represent itself…
Of course, there is always wiggle room – this statement means some “future” OT level is where it’s going to be achieved — even though those future OT levels don’t exist. It was all supposed to be “OT VIII” and the release was delayed from 1970 because it was so powerful…
But, nevertheless, this IS the pitch the church uses. It’s why it is the quote at the top of this email. It IS what scientologists think they are achieving in scientology. But there is nothing inherently wrong with this – any more than there is something wrong with seeking to go to Heaven or Nirvana or achieving the state of moksha. It is just that you are required to PAY for it to achieve the “exact results” guaranteed by “standard tech.” This is unlike attempting to achieve states in other belief systems.
But then the superman quote is followed by an “OT VIII” (the HIGHEST state) sharing wins on the Running Program. Of course, there is nothing wrong with running. There is nothing wrong even with running around in circles wearing a special pair of shorts and T shirt. But to claim this is some highly developed “technology” that is more advanced than “OT VIII” is a total marketing coup. Getting people to pay you to run around a pole and claiming this is some sort of “advanced, whole track technology” is an amazing feat of high level salesmanship (or hypnotism?)
Because L. Ron Hubbard said that running in circles was “a wholetrack OT process” (though “best done without a body”) has so many curves to it that it could take a whole posting just to analyze them – but that is not the point here. It is to once again highlight three things:
1. Scientology DOES repeatedly make over-the-top claims about states it will bring you to
2. The “Top of the Bridge” is really an illusion. How can all that research and technology and promises of OT be trumped by running around a pole or re-doing Purif or Objectives, any of which routinely result in statements about how THIS is the greatest thing ever and surpasses all earlier gains (even OT VIII)
3. Scientologists will say whatever they think is expected of them in a “success story” and in a bubble culture where lack of hype is interpreted as “Counter Intention” or “Bad Indicators” this results in the ridiculous statements that are then used as “promotion” for the wonders of [fill in the name of the book, lecture, course, ethics handling or auditing].
“Being CAUSE over Matter, Energy, Space, Time, Force, Form, Location and Life is just another way of saying ‘OT.’” – LRH
(HCO PL 12 MARCH 70R SOURCE AND CAUSE)
A New OT VIII shares her wins from the amazing Cause Resurgence Rundown:
“This has been the most amazing, wonderful, incredible, mind blowing, regenerating, revitalizing, stabilizing, refreshing, magical and CAUSE RESURGING action; it ROCKED my world and I LOVED it!!
“It is an unbelievably simple action but it digs DEEP and I feel that I have been heading to the stars. Honestly it’s that beautiful!
“I am a very different person to the one who started this rundown. I am more confident, more serene, calmer, happier, more straightforward, more able to hold MY position in space. I have more and MORE LIFE available to me and there’s much, much more of ME!!
“While there is MORE of all these things, there is LESS and LESS of all the other ‘stuff’ that really wasn’t needed or even survival, but was just there, holding me back and pulling me down. I’ve cleared so many ‘held down sevens’ that I never knew I had and the freedom that has given me is phenomenal!
“I am in PT in a way I never even imagined, let alone thought possible. It’s just the ‘here and now’ and a forward flow into the future. My flows are so much cleaner, and I feel so much more able to be cause over what I put out, and also far more able to take control of any flows coming in on me.
“I could go on and on as there were wins, gains and cognitions every single day, but the thing that stands out the most is that I ‘watched’ so much of the tech come ‘alive’ in front of me, and my understanding of LIFE and livingness is so much greater and more REAL than ever before. Things like KRC, ARC, the tone scale, the Chart of Attitudes, cause, responsibility, beingness, willingness – all these concepts are now OBJECTIVELY MINE. They’re no longer just things I ‘can think with’ or ‘get the idea of’; they’re there, in the real world in 3D Technicolor, and that aspect of my gains on Cause Resurgence Rundown alone puts me at so much more CAUSE in life – something I have always wanted!
“It is real to me that the Cause Resurgence Rundown is what is going to expand Scientology through the roof as more and more people are going to move up the Grade Chart faster than ever before because of this action.
“This has been the wildest rocket ride, and the power of it can create cannot be underestimated!
“I feel that I gained so many new friends on the Cause Resurgence delivery staff and will miss seeing them all every day. You guys are seriously beautiful and AMAZING, and I THANK YOU all, each and every one, for the help, the care, the patience, the ARC and the theta you gave to me.
“I want to thank also all the staff here at FSO for putting this org here so that people can get this incredible tech. The professionalism and Tone 40 is really awe-inspiring.
“I specifically want to thank COB – not only for putting this rundown back on our ‘time track’ but for making it so available to every Scientologist, no matter where they are on the Bridge or what their situation is. Anybody can and should do the Cause Resurgence Rundown!!! Thank you, thank you THANK YOU Sir!
“And I am again blown away with the genius of LRH. Once again he has given me back something that I’d forgotten I ever had. He is truly the best friend man ever had and I am so lucky to be a part of his legacy.” – Sarah Lake
Call or write me anytime for anything.
Love,
Barbara Dews
Flag Service Consultant
Amazing that AFTER OT VIII, without doing another “OT Level” even, but just by running in circles, one could become:
More confident
More serene
Calmer
Happier
More straightforward
More able to hold MY position in space
Much, much more of ME!!
Have LESS of all the other ‘stuff’ that really wasn’t needed or even survival
So much more CAUSE in life
LIFE and livingness is so much greater and more REAL than ever before
I just have to wonder — was she a complete wreck after OT VIII? Incapable of controlling her emotions? Lacking confidence? Not so much “me”?
Not a very good advertisement for the abilities gained on OT VIII.
But the sheeple don’t see it like this, even though it is totally logical. Even thinking like this is a “high crime” — invalidating the wins and accomplishments of “standard tech.”
It is amazing how much cognitive dissonance can be tolerated in a world where thinking for yourself is not merely frowned upon, it is stamped out with the threat of losing your family, friends and/or job.
And just as a final note, though this is THE most incredible rundown ever in the history of the whole track, and it requires NO auditor, and it’s the best thing going – David Miscavige has NEVER DONE IT. He reserves it as a punishment tool for those who displease him.
The public are not told that though.
Miscavige is about as likely to show up to do the Running Program as he is to ask someone to sec check him. Or invite a real journalist to interview him. Or show up in a court room to testify.
ps: Aaron Smith-Levin’s new video on Tony Ortega’s site today is well worth viewing. Aligns with the subject above.
TruthTeller, “rocks without perception usually do”? As in my standing firm on a viewpoint? According to Ron Hubbard I’m merely holding my position in space which is his definition of power. I disagree with Hubbard on that though. I think power is the ability to CHANGE your position in space. I reference the law of inertia about a body at rest tending to remain at rest (in its position in space).
Roger that was a below the belt. El Con understood physics about as well as I understand the unpublished OT levels XXX – LLL.
Fair enough Rog
I thought it a good quip and could not resist :))))))))))))))))
We used to have a book called “have you lived before this life” which provided us with analogies of what and OT can do. It is no longer being published. I’m guessing because it was so embarrassing.
I read it (Have You Lived Before this Life?). It was kind of lame. Even though it was L. Ron Hubbard. It can be very hard in our society to casually discuss with people being hurled out of a spaceship at 95,000 miles per hour in an ice cube aimed at an unknown planet 560 million years ago. Most people today would have anyone that made a statement like that committed to the local psychiatric ward. The Church of Scientology DOES NOT deal in RESULTS, it deals in SIGNIFICANCES that generate INCOME and INTEREST in results. And then the people are lied to. This blog is very, very about that topic. 🙂
Hi Lawrence, Thank you I recall that book! Back in my Ron’s SF books are so wonderful period and he knows all period,I thought that stuff was the bomb.Now it really does make me laugh he did create his World in all it’s maze like twists and turns.So so happy to be free.Always Ann.
I remember. Because I always doubted it, that title grabbed me right away. I would have loved to see proof and the book did leave me disappointed, I do remember. Then, in auditing we were running a chain. Over and over the auditor asks me to “recall an earlier similar [whatnot]…’ until I did recall, after a lot of frustration, some event as a toddler. She should have floated my needle. Instead, I got the damn command again.
Well, pictures came to mind, me getting decapitated. The auditor derived that this was a recollection of a past=life experience, “obviously”, because I went from being a toddler to adult in one, “earlier” link in the chain. The idea really fit in her mind. Not mine. I actually told my auditor she was brainwashed into thinking that, not realizing the button I was jumping on, at all. Pretty soon afterwards, I’m innocently saying to my new auditor I don’t get it, how any suppossed past-life recollection could be sepearate from pure fabrication of the mind. The question really bothered me. I would run experiments in my mind, where I would first think of a specific color off the top of my head and then see if I could manufacture it, see that color in my mind’s eye by just deciding to so and it would work, over and over. I did the same thing with shapes and faces.
“How can you insist that anything thought to be a past life recollection is not a simple fabrication of the mind?”
Little did I consider that this question was challenging the entire work of the founder. Silly me, I stuck to my reason and sure enough this led to my early escape from the prison of belief. -mm
Hi Mark Marco, You are very smart. You were doing things with colors and pictures when in session and I did it with electricity.We were critically thinking in a round about way,it is just that I never imagined the shit we would get for doing so! Love,Ann
Mark Marco, I worked on “tech lines” for years. Mission up through FSO. During that time there was not a SINGLE PC I encountered who ever recalled past life material that was verifiable. Not a single one. I DID however know many who tried to do it on themselves as they went all the way up to OT. All failed. No one has EVER passed the tests (metered) about returning from a past life as a scn’er. That consists of culling not publicly known data (from PC folders) of the deceased person and having the “returnee” give that correct data.
John, I am not neither argumenting in favor or against past lives at this point, but 2 friends of mine were able to recall their lives and full names at their previous existence as Saint Hill staff, and were even able to find their PC folders. I never verified their claims, but they are quite truthful individuals, and I have no reason to doubt their word.
TC
And they even got corrected on their past life auditing using those PC folders from their previous life, which they were able to locate.
TC
Hi Theta Clear, I like what you posted.I am not qualified to weigh in on the technical aspects of Ron’s take on past lives,but whoever wrote me in his name talked about past lives.In a long ago session I had perfect recall of being killed in a head on car crash circa 1932 in East Grinstead near a manor house.I was driving a big Mercedes Benz and a drunk driver drove right into me.Never watched a movie that had that plot or read a book that had that exact plot either.This was really a jolt for me as I felt I had dropped my body then for good.Well this auditor I had suddenly originated Oh you must have been on the parallel earth planet! Excuse me wtf,messed me up even more! Love you Always Ann.
I totally got you, dear Ann ; and I am really sorry for the auditor’s inval and eval of your reality. Not everybody can be an auditor as LRH misguidedly attempted us to believe. Being an auditor is a very professional endeavor not to be left in the hands of the irresponsible Teethie Weetie.
Many Ex(es) and Anti(is) share this notion, this idea about the non-existence of past lives, even though that there have been thousands of documeted cases throughout history since the beginnings of civilization. They are always looking for “proof” and challenging others to “prove it”.
The famous Phychiatrists Brian Weiss , has researched this subject intensively. You can find his books online. There are several recorded interviews as well as with Oprah.
But just becuse LRH also researched the subject, and so many consider him a con man, then many of them easily dismiss the idea of past existences. Proving past lives is not an easy endeavor, though it can be done if enough people participare in a very simple experiment. It is all based of the never completed LRH’s project “Where are you burried ?”.
Taken enough participants, they can try to recall the details of their deaths and the places where their past bodies are burried. Recalling deaths is apparently a lot easier to achieve than others not so tragic events. Ascertaining the details about those recalls from people who has never been in such places , by actually going to those places and comparing notes, is the key to this experiment.
LRH attempted to do this in his “Mission into Time” project, but it was highly unsuccessful ,and the records of it were never published as far as I know.
It would certainly be a VERY fascinating experiment to perform ; any volunteers ?
With love,
Peter
Hi Theta Clear,Oh gosh my brain, I totally forgot about Mission Into Time and yes I now recall that project I just can’t quite get the year I first encountered it,but even back then I knew I had died and then arrived somewhere else years later.However I did not broadcast my feelings to The Sea Org Team,I did write the Ron impersonator on the SO#1 line and I got an answer back assuring me that when the time was right, I would know my answer.Pretty general but back then I thought this was Ron ( young and innocent I was ) so took that as truth.I know I could answer Where was I buried? But I would be willing to volunteer if I know you would make sure that would not get me into trouble again.Damn,excuse me, but almost 42 years later and I still fight that demon from SO days! I so appreciate you and your wisdom.With all love,Ann.
T.C. Extraordinary claims require EXTRAORDINARY proof.
Hearsay is NOT admissible. We have all experienced QUITE enough of THAT from El Con and the Church.
Not to be rude but you at all, but to your friends, proof or STFU.
Who the F–k are you, to demand proof from anybody, Bozo?Take your own advice, — STFU with your obnoxious opinions!
Finally! You said what a lot of us are thinking, racingintheblood39. I second your “STFU” RFactor for JL. Let’s hope he takes your advice. Or we could just ignore him so that he has nothing to feed on.
Don’t hold your breath Cindy 🙂 He plays this game, since it gets him attention. … Doesn’t it John?
As many of us have already had the misfortune to learn, it is a huge mistake to take ones blessings for granted, and how quickly that can be taken from you!
I reckon he just needs some real life major tragedy, to jar him back to humility.(AND reality!) Clearly, he’s been spared that…….
so far….. But life… is a great humbler of the arrogant, as many a fool has discovered… too late!
Hi John,Some days you do not hold a thing back! Always Ann.
Thanks Ann. Truth takes the day. It isn’t always in the form of a rainbow hued unicorn. But, you already know that for sure.
Take care.
N.B. truthful statements & demands for data often cause consternation and verbal ejaculation amongst El Con’s living zombies. As evidenced in this thread.
Post drip giving you grief?
spell R E L I E F and delete it,
immediate results guaranteed.
I fully got you, John ; but the insistence to “prove it” also gets easily divorced from competent observation.
Willingness to fully participate at ANY experiment w/out necessarily keeping a skeptical attitude is also a vital ingredient of proprer research. Otherwise one might just have the tendency to endlessly look for “errors” in the results and design of the experiment , as one is only trying to prove ourselves right.
The not so well known “Copenhagen Interpretation” where a bunch of “scientists” arbitrarily decided about what course Physics ought to take in the future , is an example of that. The net result ? The silly interpretation of Gravity as a “curved space-time” which has resulted in no real understanding and command over the subject. The current scene of still using 1800s methods for electricity distribution, is another example of the total halt in scientific progress that a fixed idea can create.
So I am always a little suspicious of the insistence of “prove it” w/out our own attempts to participate.
TC
Sorry ; in my above reply it should have read, “In the not so well known ‘1927 Solvay Conference’ ” , instead of the “Copenhagen Interpretation” which I was studying at the time I wrote the post.
Those conferences began to be held in 1911 at Brussels , sponsored by the International Solvay Institutes for Physics and Chemistry. Severals of them were held over the years, being the one on Quantum theory, the 5th one, the most famous of them. 17 out of 29 attendees were or would be Nobel price winners.
That conference changed the course of physics in history. Gone was the let’s use the Scientific Method and the accumulation of empirical data from experiments in physics. The use of silly “Thought experiments” began to be used, specially by Einstein. The rigorous methods of experimentation and mathematical analysis just dropped out of sight. After it, never was the same again.
Just as LRH was misguidedly idolized by people (including myself) who abandoned their power of observation ,
many “scientists” as well began to be idolized like Einstein and many others.
The result was a quasi-scientific interpretation of nature by most of them.
t.c. “Willingness to fully participate at ANY experiment w/out necessarily keeping a skeptical attitude is also a vital ingredient of proprer research.”
That is incorrect in the field of research. Skepticism is healthy in that area. NOT the reverse. As far as “prove it”, theat is appropriate when dealing with fantasy such as scn.
How enlightening, indeed.
No wonder we were never allowed to talk amongst ourselves about what went on in auditing.
How starkly that contrasts Hubbard’s presentation, who talked so heavily and constantly making references to this past-life example and that past-life commonplace…. I can hear his recorded voice NOW, in fact, the memory of his hypnotic voice. Yes. This solidifies the con for me, the fact he was intentionally misleading us every step of the way, every step of the way hiding his true intention, the intention of L. Ron Hubbard.
Never was there a desire to see you reach the other side of this Bridge. Always was there the very clear intent to keep you trapped, anywhere in the middle or, better yet, the bottom of it. Oh, Ron, where is the love? -mm
You nailed it MM. There have been stories floating around for decades about people “coming back”. They are ALWAYS 3rd person. NEVER first person with evidence. After the HUNDREDS of “clears” & “OT’s” who have died over the decades, logic DEMANDS that there be people who have “come back”, IF one is to believe El Con’s tek.
This is where objectivity meets the road. And insanity falls back on “belief”.
…and he who claims to be guardian of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.
good thing that truth & knowledge needs no guardian.
Well I have just scanned Dan Koon’s article and explanation of Super Power and find that he mentions that he does not recall the Cause (Resurgence) Rundown being part of it. As far as I recall was not this running program designed for staff (and only staff) who were out of PT or had gone nuts in some way and was intended to sort of snap them out of it? Yet here we have it as part of Super Power and it seems that all persons on the rundown are receiving it. If it ever was part of Super Power (and Dan doesn’t recall it as being so) then surely it should have been an optional and probably also quite a rare step for those staff as above. Is this yet another example of Miscavige throwing another unnecessary spanner into the Scientology works? Of course Super Power was also intended for staff only as well, but that is not so important as the above data, if correct. I believe that the Running Program was also incorrectly used as some sort of make wrong program and which was “Executive C/Sed” for those staff and Execs who didn’t toe Miscavige’s line, like David Mayo, but I am unsure about this last idea.
It is not part of Super Power. It is just delivered in the same building.
ANd the original “pilot” for the Running Program was David Mayo being ordered to run around a tree FULL TIME in the ridiculous heat til his legs and teeth gave out. ANd that was the first “use” of the Running Pgm and it was intended to “crack” him because he, Senior CS International, was now an “SP.” ANd that was ordered by LRH.
Miscavige continued the tradition and routinely ordered staff to go onto the Running Pgm to “crack” them. Not “crack their cases”, crack “them.”
Okey dokey. I didn’t know it was not actually part of Super Power.
Hi Mike, Whatever running program I was put on,it sure cracked me 100%.Love, Ann.
you’re ok in my book, Ann. Always-mm
Hi Mark Marco, This morning brightened up for me and you are double ok in my book.Always XO Ann.
Wow, Mike, this tidbit is shocking. Did Mayo get assigned to the running program before or after he opened the Ability Center field practice? And why on earth would Mayo submit to that torture and punishment? I’d love to see someone interview him and find out what life is like for him now all these years later and what he thinks about things. Any more info on Mayo?
Cindy, Mayo was in the SO at Int when El Con decided to torture him. AFTER David had saved his life from what I know.
Yes, LRH was a total scum bag
Mayo’s assignment to the Running Program was while he was still in. He didn’t open the AACs until after he was declared SP and thrown out. As for why someone would submit to that, the person to ask would be Karen DLC. She suffered the same punishment and yet stayed in, just like Mayo did (until he was tossed out).
Well Foolproof, looks like DM used the running pgm to torture people just like EL Con wanted. Kinda makes any SANE person go Hmmm
“I just have to wonder – was she a complete wreck after OTVIII?”
Mike, you are one funny guy and I really needed this laugh after the day I had today. Thank you!
More confident
More serene
Calmer
Happier
More straightforward
More able to hold MY position in space
Much, much more of ME!!
Have LESS of all the other ‘stuff’ that really wasn’t needed or even survive
Much lighter and able to overcome gravity as my wallet is really empty
I just spent 5-7 thousand to prove my fealty to the COP and now the regs will take the last 2k I have.
Magical thinking isn’t magical, it is just delusion given form and substance.
Today’s writing and comments are hilarious, everyone have a beer on me.
After 6 or 7 beers, I can’t hold my position in space, but I do feel more serene…….
Hi zemooo, Love you,love your post.Priceless! Always Ann.
Hi Mike, back on the saddle. This delusional person is freakin messed up. You spend approx. $250K plus to get to OT VIII plus years of bs auditor training and 6-month security checks and donations upon donations and groveling to show “loyalty” up the ying yang and feign OT abilities, and now this $5K “health pgm and fat loss” running in circles for 2-3 weeks bs trumps the entire bridge???… wow I’m sooooooooooo sad that I didn’t get to do this Olympic – Triathalon earth shattering pgm!!!!!!!!…
That propaganda also serves one quite malicious and introverting purpose:
To make those who did it and did not achieve those results, assume the viewpoint that they are flawed or failed to achieve what that action brings and seek of be easily influenced to redo it .
Regards,
Luis
Excellent point Luis
That success story if far too glowing to be believed by any mere mortal. I guess I will go out and buy a pole to run around so I too can be immortal.
Wow. That email could go straight into the “op-ed” section of “The Onion” without any change.
From Ken Urquhart in an informal chat recorded in 2009 while he was sitting in a lounge
with a small attentive group after a speech he had given to the Moscow indie field:
“I once asked LRH on the ship, how many OT levels he had researched.
And he said, I think, it was 86. That was in, ahhh, early seventies.”
Many things were thought and said over the years looks like, eh?
Seriously, all I got out of reading those “wins” was realizing that I need to start exercising on a regular basis. At the end of their success stories I was hoping they’d say….”and also I can fit into my size 4 jeans now ! Thanks Ron!”
Hi Steph in NH, I loved your post.With success stories the way they are now,sounded totally on source to fit into those jeans.Boy Ron sure was a sly one,and a slippery shape shifter. Always Ann.
Which brings up another point…….how on God’s green Earth was Kirstie Alley able to do this??
i don’t believe you.
Never in the history of this planet have beings been able to truly and causitively run around in circles. Running around in circles endlessly while at cause can only happen in Scientology and at Flag Land Base, the Mecca of technical perfection.
Look at wog world: Wogs run laps around oval tracks. But what is an oval running track? It is an alteration of the exact tech of the circle. The oval running track is an implant designed to squirrel the perfect wholetrack tech of running around in circles.
The oval track is why wogs “run laps” and even engage in “track and field” events such as the Olympics and yet never feel satisfied or fulfilled. Even the Olympics are just an R6 dramatization of running around with a torch to no avail. That Olympic officials have to distribute condoms in shocking quantities to pot-smoking Olympic athletes proves that the oval track is designed to stimulate Out 2D activities.
Whereupon, it becomes evident that the only true OT activity is to run around in circles at Flag at the correct orders of magnitude and in the proper wholetrack uniforms and running shoes.
We in RTC can assure one and all that, after a day spent running around in circles at Flag — and running away from Flag regges — Scientologists are too exhausted to engage in Out 2D activities. Indeed, they are even too tired to go Out 1D and crank one out in their bedrooms at night. This state of exhaustion is CAUSE RESURGENCE.
Running around a pole endlessly is a wholetrack technology that, in previous eras of Scientology, was reserved only for the highest Int executives. However, in COB’s beneficence this elite technology is available to everyone who comes to Flag.
All praise to Emperor Miscavige, the Grand Dragon of the Seven Spheres of Scientology.
Hi OTVIIIisGrrr8, You have cheered me up considerably with your post.Just when I was entering a sad moment with myself you send a great post as you did and I’m ready to keep going onward.Thank you.Always Ann.
you feelin’ less sad now, yes
i’m here. i see you
happy none the less to see again
soon and soon again
your friend, marco
Hi Mark Marco, Thank you my sunshine Angel. Better this AM.So glad you are here.Love,Ann.
“Out 1D” 🙂
[Being terrifically on-point, let me re-post what I just put up at the post Going Clear Emmy Sweep, responding to an innocent man who just asked me weigh the good vs. bad created by Hubbard:]
OH MY GOD.
Oh, dear. I’m lost, where to begin….
[ ],
I understand the phenomenon: love for LRH. I suffered that affliction until quite recently, I’m a little embarrassed to admit.
I beg you to step back, take a look at the man starting pre-1950, when he began to famously mold himself into a notorious, and shamelessly self-agrandizing story teller.
Dip your toes into the early future from that moment, and notice how brutal he would become when confronted with any crticism. Note how that characteristic, along with his penchant for telling you how he knows so much more than all the rest of man and the history of knowledge, and keep separate from that your personal feelings towards the man, including intellectual achievements. Just look at what he created.
He created a trap.
Once in, you were severly punished for expressing any doubt about that trap, doubt about the founder in particular.
He reinforced the trap.
He threatened you, anyone inside the trap, with isolation for eternity if you were to leave the trap or go to the media, specifically the media, to be critical of the trap in any way.
The trap is the church. The trap is the tech, as the true purpose of that tech is again to keep you trapped, hypnotized into thinking the garden-variety therapy he actually delivers is “actually” the path to Total Freedom and the supposed salvation of mankind. Forget whether or not you bought this story. Just look at what I mean, when i say it is a trap, one that will sting very much, if you try to touch the fence. The punishment. The relentless disregard for everything and everybody in your life that you love. All that is waged against you in order to keep you in that trap.
Hubbard died his body riddled with drugs, his mind lost despite the heavy doses of anti-psychotics, himself the victim of acute paranoia. He was thus isolated from himself, a total failure. He died in hiding from himself, his church, his doctrine and, most of all, you.
He died refusing to tell you the truth.
And he died proving the tech does not work, except to keep his followers intranced and/or in the trap. Keep Scientology Working, indeed.
Each Scientologist represents one family brutally torn apart. That, to me, makes further the measure of good verses harm in terms of Scientology a useless endeavour. Oh, dear. Now I need a kleenex.
Brilliant post, Marco. Hubbard really IS the poster boy for what scientology produces. What a sad man he was,
Marco… This was an excellent synopsis
Wow Marco, good summation. Fortunately there are only a VERY few thousand people on this planet still hypnotized by Hubbard. The ones with the weakest minds will be the last ones to break that mind hold. Well, for the most part. Some SO are kept isolated from lots of data. I refer to those who are public or have left the “church” but not the cult.
I like to think of us as all equal in terms of the minds’ potential. Some are sleeping and some are wildly awake, but, when you get down to the core of what we are… you touch that which makes us all the same, who we really are. We come to The Touchstone itself.
Those inside are merely denied the tools, the data, and the opportunity to discover this Universal potential. That’s where we come in. That’s why you find me here.
I see a future in which I will need to write again for those outside the physical walls of the church but still unwilling to detach themselves from the tech. It is too dangerous a topic to leave alone.
Mark, these couple of postings clearly show you are on fire man!! 🙂
— which leads me onto a little confronted issue, that seems to bedevil
the very best of honest to goodness intentions put forth on this blogl
— as with any communications (any time/where, attempting to discuss REAL pressing problems that most tend to ignore/not-is/negate.
There is such a thing as danger! And another thing entirely to BE dangerous!
There is also the FACT of aberration, Another, to actually BE aberrated!
And still another to be CAPABLE of removing aberration.
IMHO, these elements mentioned, have an enormous bearing, on the big picture of where WE ‘stand’ today, Even if merely looking in terms of what we’re doing to our common ‘playground’, planet Earth, and ALLLL its inhabitants (our Triillions of fellow Earthlings.)
It’s all very well to heap ridicule and scorn upon others, as a ‘pastime’.
Another thing entirely, to look past faults and personalities, to recognize, (differentiate) that there (sorry be be so bluntly brutal) ISN’T any one/thing else to ‘blame’ or find ‘responsible’, except for the uninspected, unhandled, persona running the show into oblivion.
–ABERRATED man!
My question (specifically directed to you) then, Mark, is:
— How do YOU propose we go about pulling back this planet’s future from the very real possibility of the destruction of ALL life?
(assuming you share the view – that we are certainly headed in that direction, with our eyes wide shut!) Plenty of citations/scientific data to back this generality, is freely available on the net, btw.
In a one sentence summary, then; — Can we stop, step back, and honestly take a look, at how WE are handling “insanity’ within ourselves, and our fellow ‘aberrees? — (Or do we NOT have the means. to do that?)
ps. I don’t happen to hold the view that there is even ONE other aberrational species on our planet, that poses this threat to all other life.
Thank you for your anticipated comments, Mark. 🙂
— Calvin.
racingintheblood39, I wouldn’t call aberration FACT, it is a judgement and an opinion, isn’t it? Life is a fact and everything that exists within the scope of life is a fact and everything occurs naturally. Better to let the world be as it is and navigate through it skillfully and artfully touching peoples’ lives than to come barging into it trying to SAVE it from itself which nobody will ever do.
Roger, Jeez… man. Just listen to yourself.. “I wouldn’t call aberration a FACT…” — Really? ”
“.. everything occurs naturally. ” Oh? — I don’t see Nature, after inventing, and releasing over 70 odd toxic chemicals a day, into the environment, just “barging in trying to save it from itself which nobody will ever do” — Yeah?
“Better to let the world be as it “(IS.)”. —(Wow! God help us!)
…” and navigate through it skillfully” — pity the thousands of now extinct species and millions of people dying from unprecedented levels of cancers directly arising from previously unheard of levels of radiation (lethal levels of man made emissions of microwave ‘technology’) — no longer in a position to — who DON’T have your “privileged level of skill” and thus be in your favored position, for “artfully touching people’s lives”..
–Bravo for you there, Roger! It’s plain you sincerely believe you’re successfully navigating into your ‘future”.
–“(Aberration)… is a judgement and an opinion, isn’t it?”
Clearly, Roger, you just prefer to ‘think”
The very least I hoped the likes of you might do –Is LOOK!
… You know? Like try to step out of your comfortable shoes, and walk a mile in Mother Nature’s (shoes? – just for a weensy little ‘wake-up call’, perhaps — you know?)
i may as well forget it, hey Rodge?- Not going to happen! 🙂
racingblood, Did you know that if the Earth’s magnetic field keeps decreasing in power at the rate it has been since ~1600 AD, the surface of the Earth will be bathed in LETHAL levels of radiation from the Sun in 2,000 years? Result, humans GONE.
racingintheblood39, thank you for your impassioned reply. I stand by my comment, though. I’ll be more than happy to reply to a single point you wish to task upon me but I don’t want to use this blog to write a thesis. I’d like to bring to your attention that your tone is one of frustration and agitation but I wholeheartedly encourage you to continue to speak your mind.
Bang on cue, John Locke! As to be expected, “we”, (collectively) of course, have PROVABLY, absolutely nothing whatsoever, to do with the now sad state of our formerly pristine atmosphere, water, and life in the sea and on land, in the rivers, and state of ecosystems formerly supporting balanced and sustainable life of our one and only “earth”.
According to no less an authority than yourself, “we” are apprised, that in 2000 years, (we) “humans” will all be “gone” … (No consideration, or mention made, of any other life form, included (as expected, again!)
But wait, there has to be a villain to blame here, “someone/thing, to make WRONG!
Yes John Locke, fortunately, we have your profound vision/scientific ability to provide/guide us with the infallible, dogmatic answer.
— The SUN! –Of course, Why didn’t I “see” that?
–And why did the rest of our fellow “Earthlings”, suffering the loss of their quality of, and/or actual habitat, fail to see that too.?
You imply (by your arrogant pronouncements) that all life, other than you, is of lower intelligence than yourself. Yet I suspect and indeed see, that you possess the same human frailties, e/mis-emotions as the rest of us, yet are also possessed of unhealthy levels of self-importance and ‘ego’.
Fuck! Your behavior/attitude, tells me you are intensely disliked by those “closest” to you. Right?
–You show no GENUINE empathy, compassion, or understanding of those you deal with, for the simple reasons just given… because THEY are ALWAYS WRONG!!….. Right?
You need to get your”self” checked out man!
Otherwise you will die a VERY ANGRY old man!
…….just dishing back some of the return flow, you’ve been begging for– reflective of your “communications” to so many who just visit here in a spirit of friendly contribution and goodwill.
What ever happened to the Love, Gratitude, & Respect man?
—racing.
Roger, Your points taken, as stated. So thank you.
Yet, are you quite unmoved, by the agonizing environmental situation, so sincerely, (if sarcastically) highlighted to you? 🙂
If you honestly see no ‘human’ involvement angle here,
further discussion becomes pointless.
— Calvin.
Calvin, I’m not unmoved by the suffering I witness or the suffering I know about through inference or testimony. I see everything as myself and therefore everything is as dear to me as I am to myself. I recycle, do the green thing, don’t eat meat (most of the time) not to save the world but so I can be at peace within myself. There is no such thing as helping another person because everything we do is for our own inner peace. How can I live with myself if I ignore an opportunity to ease somebody’s suffering? Besides there are no “other” people as we are the same one. I let the planet and all of nature rest in the hands of the same natural law that created it, sustains it and eventually dissolves it.
Besides, I’m too lazy to care about saving the planet.
That’s really big of you, Roger. Thanks for sharing.
I really do understand you better, now. 🙂
This may sound labored here, simply because all I was trying to point up, (and feel vociferously strongly about!) IS, that we actually DO live on a marvelous planet. The only thing perceptibly wrong with it is with “our” own species. Elements of how “it” is ‘developing’, that is in conflict with nature, (natural law) thereby on course for unavoidable cataclysmic destruction.
Imho, Roger,THE value system, palpably centered in this collapse of our formerly pristine habitat, is what has become ‘our’ present collective problem; ie – Never ENOUGH money > solution=Make more = next problem becomes how to exploit more resources > solution WANT to own more, to be able to make more money, from those who WANT to———I’ll spare you the rest.
This is just INSANE, man! And as a few formerly (but no longer, thank heavens!) ‘eyes-wide-shut’s, we can trace this back to convoluted thinking, or ABERRATION, which is where I (we) began this conversation in the first place.
Unless we are able to clearly see the monster Value System, for the aberration it IS / has caused to our thinking, how ‘on earth’ can we hope to sustain the balance of healthy, natural life on this planet?
More importantly, Roger, how do we solve ‘aberration’ as the primary facilitator of fucking up the bigger picture — keeping life in a symbiotic balance?
At the end of the day, Roger, I cannot see another workable solution, other than removing the ‘destructive’ (aberrated) elements of ‘man’ himself, failing which, he becomes the further executioner of most life on this, OUR home planet., (along with himself, of course)
Mebbe, (just mebbe), a trusted soul — on the business side of: “pick up the cans, please” 🙂 (or something workably similar) — still offers the relevant solution to the problem of human ‘aberration’ ?
summary: Other than the devil, I cannot see any other factor, apart from “aberration”, as being the ultimate ‘spanner in the works”
— Can you? 🙂
oh, Mike my appropriate apologies for veering off-thread here. I was only doing my bit for OUR “bigger picture”
— Hope you see that too! 🙂
Calvin, I understand where you’re coming from. J. Krishnamurti said, “Everybody wants peace but they can’t agree on how it is to be achieved. Until you have found that unshakable peace and joy within yourself how can you possibly think you can help bring it to the world?”
All these crusaders and reformers have historically just furthered the mischief in my opinion. That includes scientologists trying to clear the planet with a system that has failed to distinguish itself after 65 years. And lest I be accused of nattering then I pose the question, “Where are all the great scientology artists, engineers, writers etc? Where are all the Coca Cola, Nike-sized scientology business successes? No, scientology “tech” has not made a splash and it’s not gonna clear no planet. It might help some people deal with their problems though and that’s not nothing.
Calvin-
wow, I’ve been anticipating this sort of question… knowing full well that the answer is the reflection of what I’ve been able to understand about what is, all that I know.
I have moments of brillance, moments where I feel ready to take the microphone and say, “This is what I believe…”, you know, beyond saying that I don’t belive in Scientology.
I wish I could say I had that all figured out, but then to make the claim I’d have to be insane to some degree, am I right? This holds me rather mute.
So, let me say that the answer lies in all the future things I might write.
Because my purpose here is to first expose the fraud that is this church.
I can reveal the lie.
I can provide the stepping stone of critical thinking, a stepping stone kept hidden from the followers of that church.
Because my target audience is that 30-odd thousand still inside the bubble.
I hope this does not disappoint you, as an answer.
Because you have asked the question that touches the last particle of fear in me, a fear the result of ignorance which is my last enemy. And I do thank you. I’m so glad I came back here. I was really hoping someone would indeed notice.
I hope to find the brave soul finding me, driven knowing oppression, risking total isolation by violating the law of the doctrine he had vowed to keep sacred. That is the face I keep before me. I believe the next thing you say might be the most important word to your future, immediate and long. It is good to hold a thought like that.
What would I say to this man?
I think this blog is an ideal place to submit a thesis.
Hi Mark Marko, Good Sunday morning to you! I misplaced your post where you replied to Alexandra and wrote that heartfelt poem about those three Emmys,your poem was most excellent! I liked your reply to Calvin also,yes keep right on your path! About that Dream ,my darn cat woke me up from the out-1D skit and we had opened the package of moonlight and the glow was swirling around us…it was beautiful,until a meow changed the channel.It is one of those dreams I can’t turn off so on to the next installment of light ang love.Forever Moonlight,Ann.
you keep me coming…
back.
I am but a Moonchild.
Hi Mark Marco, And you keep me coming back too. Moonchild, I see stars and sunbeams with you as well.Sparkle On XXOO Ann.
Hi Ann, I’m going to go slightly off topic here and ask how you’re recovering from the cataract surgery. I ask also for personal reasons.
Hi Roger Hornaday, Good evening to you.Certainly off topic this may be ,but since I am the Queen of surgeries and medical stuff of all kinds I’d be most happy to tell you my journey with cataracts. Firstly I go to the hospital on 9/23 to have my left eye done.Have to be there at 5:45am. My right eye was done on 9/9 and my eye surgeon likes to space each one out.The entire surgery actually takes about 20 minutes..Unlike breast or colon cancer I did not have to be totally asleep like when you get the tube down your throat. Have had that and an IV for cataract is much better,I got the same stuff I get for colonoscopies light sedation. You look up at the ceiling in the or and there are all these colored lights like discos back in the day and they do the surgery.After you have to wear Ray Charles glasses in the sun sun outside when you leave the hospital because you have to wear a lite weight clear plastic shield over you eye until noon after the surgery and at night for one week.Then each day the lens implant starts to power up and omg it is incredible.I have worn glasses since age 6 and my right cataract was so bad I could not see even with my glasses.The tamoxifen I have to take for five years to stop my breast cancer makes cataracts worse so mine got bad really fast.My right eye has a distance implant but my left will get one for an astigmatism that I have.OK the worst part is all the eye drops I have to do every day for a month with both eyes. That is a total pain but it is for infection to prevent that and to help heal.Hubby has been really good at helping me with mine,but you do have to keep track what eye gets what.I see my dr the next day after surgery and then then next three weeks while they check your eye pressure and make sure all is healing up.One last point for reading I get magnifier glasses at say Walgreens once both eyes are well on their way,but that’s ok.The technology of these high tech lens implants is truly astounding and hubby did both his eyes in Aug and loves it! Well I have told you more than you wanted to know and taken up space on Mike’s Blog and all the lurkers and trolls will be bored to tears with this.Just wanted to let you know it is about the only thing age gives us that can be totally fixed so that is kind of cool. Just think if we were still in we would have to realize that we were not going to get new eyes even if Ron said glasses were not needed because the tech would handle all! I would really be blind,with cancer, and thrown out into the street if I had stayed in SO this far along in my life.Love U hope this helps XO Ann.
Thanks for the info. I guess you’re happy with the results. Does it change your eye-glasses prescription? My research (that means I looked up various information sources, not made stuff up from my imagination) indicates an enzyme in the body has been shown to prevent and even reverse cataract formation called glutathione. I am taking supplements that supposedly stimulate its production. This information appears repeated so a Google search will give you that same info I have. I love having eyesight! Also, “free radicles” seem to be the culprit in a LOT of health problems. I assault them with regular doses of fresh veggie juice. This is what I call, “being on the safe side”. 🙂
Hi Roger Hornaday, Thank you for your post. I am so glad you found a protocol that works for your eyes,that is great! I will no longer need an eyeglass RX.I will take a book with me to Walgreens and then try on the magnify eye glasses and see what strength I will need.I like fruit and veggie juice too.but because of my history and my RXs for cancer I walk the traditional path for cataracts. I so value my sight as well.And you have an amazing aura of relaxation about you.I’m pretty darn high strung as you may surmise from some of my posts.XO Ann.
MM I too like to think we are all equal in potential. Unfortunately that has never proven to be the case with humans. We are equal in natural rights.
Having said that, it is incumbent upon us who have recognized the danger that was created by Hubbard to continue to speak out so that innocents don’t get sucked into his cult. To lay bare the lies of his brainwashed followers everywhere we can.
(Fortunately a few well placed logical observations and/or questions usually causes them to explode in a torrent of illogic for all sane people to see)
I applaud your efforts and tenacity in this endeavor.
Salud!
John, a brainwashed person has lost the ability to tell a lie.
I would be shy to ridicule them.
John, I forgot to say how proud I am to be on your team. Thankyou.
Thank you MM but your articulation of the Daedalian like mind trap created by Hubbard and its effects is far superior to my feeble attempts.
I would not categorize your work that way at all. We could improve your presentation, however, if you were to accept me as your English teacher.
Hey, look I got my 3 awards, right there, bam bam bam, jus like I wanted, thanks everybody John, hey, Peter thanks, you’re the man. Hey I said it felt like I won them myself and then it happened. Oh god I have no speech. Look at me Mom I”m OT I’m OT already! Ha. Chee Chalker, I’ve heard of you. Yea. ok… Looks like a good day 2 me. Mark out.
😀
Definition, idiom: Running around in circles:
“to keep doing or talking about the same thing without achieving anything”
Does it make a difference which way you run around a pole? Is it anti-clockwise in the southern hemisphere or is that information confidential?
I saw a dog run around both ways once, does that make it OT?
Lol! But a very good point, I Yawnalot.
In the old days, I was sure Miscavige and Int Management were all OT 10 and FEBC, at the very least. Imagine my shock when I found out otherwise. My mouth hung open for days while I tried to digest this.
Of course, now with all the information I’ve got about it all, it makes perfect sense.
Scientology – the politics of the mind with just as many false promises and baby kissing madness. The syrupy I feel better than you and my SS is a lot better than yours is their highest technical achievement within their group. The ability of handing over of money for nothing has already weeded out the riff raff and only the super stupid remain behind to play ‘delusion.’ Delusion, the new as intended super improved status game being played in a Cof$ near you. Come on in and join the bandwagon of bullshit and make eternity your friend. Scientology where money and imagination combine in such fantastic new ways, such as centrifugal force. It was recently discovered on an grubby napkin from a old diner in Phoenix a new super powerful ‘run around a pole technology’. The squirrel version is Pole Dancing, though popular with wogs was last night declared suppressive and rightfully so, beware of cheap imitations of the real deal.
Cause over life has never been easier. more fulfilling or easier to obtain… a future version where legs are no longer required was reported but miscavige neither confirmed or denied the claim but that hint of smile playing on his face said it all.
Oh boy! there isn’t one aspect of the church of scientology that isn’t either super stupid or super embarrassing.
Hi I Yawnalot, Great post today.Loved it.Always Ann.
Is this the Sarah Lake that is mother to or sister to Alex Lake and they live in the LA area?
I think she’s the cousin of Pollution Lake…..
Introducing SCIENTOLOGY APOLOGETICS:
You guys who criticize scientology just don’t get what it’s really all about you don’t understand the tech and fuck you for not granting me my beingness go away I hate you don’t invalidate my wins!
Some of you will consider this less than scholarly but it’s a start and I say it’s a good one! 🙂
Houston, we have a problem.
“My flows are so much cleaner, and I feel so much more able to be cause over what I put out”
Sounds like a laxative advertisement
Wait……what? It’s not? I could have sworn I saw this on a billboard.
Surfer Dude, you did see it on a billboard. It was my postulated billboard in which the CoS has lent its name to a purgative which is, in truth, an empty jar but is marketed as a jar containing postulates that you will shit and those postulates are the postulates of David Miscavige who has also lent his name and image. His image is on the label with the caption, “I say you will shit!” And the name of the product is CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY LAXATIVE POSTULATES: “Your flows will be cleaner…”
Hi wheresshelley, Good to meet you.Thank you for my afternoon laugh.It really does sound like a laxative commercial.Don’t forget the invisible TP! Always Ann.
Oh Barbara Dews Spews….more blubbering implants about how running in magick undies around a pole was genius of LRH….That woman was gone many moons ago – when I was in the Cult she would try to Regg me. I would blow her off so easily because she is so nutty.
Does Slappy sit in his billion dollar villa on the Int Base, sipping Scotch, slapping Sea Org Slaves and eating special lamb just butchered in front of his eyes…(he loves to hear things scream) and LAUGH about this crazy stuff?
And what does Miscavige say about Tom Cruise “Pulling in the plane crash” – how much will David MIscavige bilk out of Tom Cruise for that disaster? Tom Cruise has his Beverly Hills mansion up for sale…I wonder if he cognited the EP of Scientology. “I am nothing” “I deserve to HAVE nothing” – the actual EP Scientology shoots for. Any guesses Mike or others? What will DM do to TC?
I also want to thank COB for making me and others in the camera department at Gold do the running program. It was being piloted at Int. It was an action that gave me a lot of time to think and in the long run I felt healthier. Yes there were times when I got a runners high but I have felt that same feeling from doing other activities long after leaving scientology. Thanks to COBs order this action made me see clearly that there was no future staying in the sea org any longer. It helped me make the decision to leave and get on with my life goals, re-connect to my family and spend as much time with them as I could.
Now, there is a real win from the Running Pgm!
And Tom, I take it the Camera Department was not awarded the Running Pgm for being “upstat”? It was ordered because you were out-ethics, SP’s trying to destroy scientology….
Mike your absolutely right. The only award I ever received was from the mission to find an ED Int. I ended up in Europe and recommended Guillaume. Loved the guy just wish he was out now.
Actually one other time the shoot crew was told to stay behind on the Freewinds after one of the maiden voyage events to do the decks. I was awarded a cabin on the top deck because I was a team leader and we did an excellent job at the tasks we were given. We always went beyond what was asked for. All that in 13 years, not too shabby. Love your blog Mike.
Thanks Tom. Yeah, two “rewards” in 13 years is about par for the course.
Did I send you on that Mission to find Guillaume? I was the ED Int Pjt Ops then, answering directly to Annie and nobody else and was tasked with replacing Kerry Gleeson as ED Int.
I am not sure who my mission ops was but I remember that Cathy Ondreika was sent to Africa. That mission was fired when I was at Flag before I came up lines. For a while when Bill Franks was running the show. I was his programs enforcer. I think Kerry was running Management. For a while I was WUS programs chief and I became good friends with Mark Fisher as he would send me to cramming on my Evals. Since I hated Florida weather in the summer I would often peruse the mission board in the Action Bureau and vulunteer for any mission going out of Florida!
OK Tom. I thought I had sent Sam Licciardi there to do that mission, but you know how memories fade/alter with time.
Yes, I do. It’s been a long time.
Maybe
Maybe it’s about time I got me a big, black T-shirt, put ” SP ” big-block letters on the front, fire-engine red, some kind of stupid question on the back and hit the Orgs or where ever
-where o where have the Scn-gists gone?
-Where o where can they be?-
Maybe that should be the Big Question on the back, butt,
I really need something stupider. Any suggerstions?
and invite everybody I see for a little bull baiting, perhaps. Cameras, ready, let’s roll!
See if can get some attention.
i can talk by myself if nobody appears, like, in front of that big blue triple tower towering over LA, that thing is really real, huh? Looks so much like a Hollywood clay model in the picture. But I’ll do it. I’ll do it just for fun and post it on U-tube. I got material. I got “Why Independent Scn-gists Make Me Skiddish”, and the still un-released “I’m So Gay Can You Straighten Me Out?” special report.
I feel viral. I feel really and truely risky. I been gettin fat ( I’m skinny as a rail, BTW, a runner with recorded times ) OK, get me pumped, check microphone and… GO.
– go go go … Go.
…
… Awfully nice day to see nobody around out here…. HEY ARE YOU RATIONAL? SERIOUSLY!!! Here’s you chance to say so, Scn-man I WANT TO SAVE THE WORLD, bang a drum, please.
I remember saying just give me a stage and a micro-phone. O, yeah, I do remember. That was here, back when I was using curse words, ha.
Guess what, I went to college, took Critical Thinking.
I actually thought it wouldn’t be available, HA, capitol letters, ha. That’s just another ripple-effect of that damn Scientology brainwash-
I’d like to stack it up, double down and confront a SCientologist, please, preferrably in uniform. First question, were you trained? I almost feel like I’m cheating, I have such an advantage. No surprise, “critical thinking” is not found in the Scn Tech Dictionary. Now that is hilarious. Gottal love that LRH sense of humor. Step one, he says, we are throwing out reason, altogether. Now, go get Mark Marco, I want his head!!!
I love this new job.
relating to the last para : I can’t wait for Jesse Prince’s book in the expectation that it has more about Captain David “he is NOT insane!” Miscavige crying like a girl when L Ron Hubbard ordered Jesse to sec-check DM.
I heard he SQUEALED like a little girl. Very high pitched. I believe he broke a glass with his voice.
Listen people. don’t knock it until you’ve tried it. Don’t judge. If running around a stripper pole didn’t make people everywhere more confident, happier, more serene, more straightforward, More able to hold a position in space, and much much more THEM, the sales of stripper poles wouldn’t be out the roof, and strip clubs across America would be empty. In fact, many people do not even need to run around these poles themselves, they can obtain the same wins by watching someone else run around the pole.
http://www.amazon.com/Removable-Exotic-Stripper-Dancing-Dance/dp/B00FLO6YNC/ref=sr_1_4?s=sports-and-fitness&ie=UTF8&qid=1442422849&sr=1-4&keywords=stripper+pole
Excellent as usual Mike.
Another reason that it’s not good to over hype the state of OT is that it justifies all the horrible crap that the sheeple do. For example they disconnect from people who suppress an organization that they feel are saving the planet through the work of the OT’s and “freeing all the theta”. Since they are saving the planet and going OT. This goal is senior to and filters any computation towards justice. That is, it is always the “greatest good” to destroy a critic of anything they are doing rather than put at risk their goals. Even if they knew a person was truthfully telling what was going on they would rather destroy that person completely instead of admitting fault, because this might jeopardize OT. It is sort of the carrot being dangled out in front of the group. They want to be tricked into feeling that there is some hope. I did too for a long time and I finally snapped out of it. They will attempt to destroy the reputation of anyone or hurt them in many different ways if they feel that you are shedding light on their little delusion of OT. I still say there is some good within the philosophy, but because it is intertwined with this whole OT trap it is really better to stay away from it as an organization.
Heeeey there, Tony, good buddy!… Nice post!
There it is…David Miscavige in a nutshell…a guy that just doesn’t show up.
“2. The “Top of the Bridge” is really an illusion. ”
A generality if ever there was one.
But I suppose its true if you don’t use Standard Tech.
If you have PTP’s, Overt and witholds etc, etc you won’t get any better the Tech states this.
No point in going on about it. No one gets up and decides “today I run the marathon”.
You do a bit each day and build up to it. Its called a gradient.
I have stated before that what the SOB sells as Scientology is not real Scientology.
All of us who have actually run engrams for instance know case gain can be made.
So I think point 2 is unfair. No doubt I will get bombasted and lampooned for saying so.
The success story where this cretin wrote this bleow is what I am talking about.
“I specifically want to thank COB – not only for putting this rundown back on our ‘time track’ but for making it so available to every Scientologist, no matter where they are on the Bridge or what their situation is.
HCOB Mixing Rundowns and Repairs applies here as if PTS how do you start this rundown without de-pts’ing first.
How did SOB put anything together at all?
SOB has NO TECHNICAL TRAINING other than Level 0 and he even thumped a PC while training I read.
If the “cretin” had such wins on this rundown yet was allowed to attest to OTVIII only proves how out tech the Cof $’s and SOB are.
It is actually very disgusting to me to see people writing so called success stories thanking SOB and LRH only as an afterthought.
But I did hear that success stories that were to be published broadly rather than in the local Academy (which is empty of course) have to be vetted by RTC first.
Can anyone confirm this?
SOB’s contribution to Scientology is to make it one of the most notorious subjects around and to prevent most people from ever benefitting from LRH’s exhaustive research and discoveries.
A High Crime if ever there was one.
Hang onto your seat TruthTeller. I will try to moderate as best I can, but you just opened yourself to some serious broadsides. Maybe nobody will bother as it is not going to change your views I am sure. But look back to the 70’s when LRH was PERSONALLY C/Sing FCCI’s and staff on board the Apollo and you will find PRECISELY the same thing as in this post. Miscavige hasn’t “altered the tech” to make it unworkable. He may be persuading people to go back to the bottom and redo stuff over and over, but the OT levels ESPECIALLY are not new and different. Hell, OT 1 – 3 are handwritten. Anyway, your comment is polite and expresses a view that I am sure plenty share. But it is a position based on theory or belief rather than on fact.
Nice job, Mike.
“But it is a position based on theory or belief rather than on fact.”
I am not sure Mike what point you are making here?
I do not dispute the materials are handwritten from OT1 to OTIII.
What I am saying and you yourself I think it was remarked about the books being re-written in places.
SOB constantly pushes “pure LRH” and stuff not LRH removed etc etc as Standard Tech.
I have not seen the actual materials that SOB’s victims are using from OT 1 to OT III.
But it speaks for itself, and you are writing weekly about this, that how can they attest to OTVIII yet get more wins from a purif or SRD, or Super Power.
What these people are doing must be different in many ways to what I have done.
Not having access to todays Church materials then yes I agree its a belief, but based on observation not some weird cognition.
I thought you may have been referring to my having “faith or “belief” in the OT levels.
That would be insulting as I take nothing on faith. I don’t think this was intended.
If one uses Standard Tech, follow KSW (simple rules applicable in most fields) and are actually trained to use an e-meter, and have duplicated and understand the materials, you will get results.
If one got no results,or poor results, then there are Technical things that can be done to sort this out. There is always a reason things did not work out.
If one doesn’t bother but just complains and moans they one should just push off and admire the daisies and let the rest of proceed up the bridge.
all the best
TT
I am not sure Mike what point you are making here?
The POINT is that your beliefs have ZERO basis in REALITY. Put another way, NOTHING produced by LRH will make one CAUSE over MEST (O.T.).
N O T H I N G.
Hope that clears up your confusion Tootheller
I have no confusion. I handle the Mu’s if and when they crop up.
Oh and a simple process even you can do to become cause over MEST is take a shovel dig a hole and get back into it.
Your comment is worthless, adds nothing to this blog, its just “yip yap yip yap” and natter
I love it. OT now = using your body to move a shovel.
Yep, that’s as “OT” as El Cons tek can produce. Glad you understand now.
Aw, crap.
Ann, thanks for reminding me you’re here, thank god.
If I shut up now I got no salt, after banging that gong, the drums up there…
Some cat, going by “Truth Teller” thinks he can apply tech as if it were the same thing as science. As if there were validity to the notion, actually. This could be a long night. I do wish I were smarter. Doesn’t matter. No belief system based on imagination is going to hold up against the Scientific Method.
Where to begin. Sir, question one: Is the source of this “tech” a single person, and can it be questioned, that is, are you as a practicing Scientologist able to subject this technology to the scientific method by employing the deductive method of critical thinking, that is, critical reasoning? Can you employ the tool of doubt to any equations taught in the school of thought known as Scientology? And, what can you tell me about this creator/founder of your religion, that grants him this authority, the guardian of Truth and Knowledge? I do have that right, am I right? – that there is no knowledge more valueable than the tech of Scientology, according to you as a practicing Scientologist?
Hi Mark Marco, Thank God you are here too. A very well reasoned post,perhaps your new tee shirt could say no critical thinking allowed for eternity. XO Always Ann.
I am the kid from TomorrowLand, flying through, seat secured with a solid grip and very blue eyes.
Hi Mark Marco, Those blue eyes will get me every time.XO Ann.
” Anyway, your comment is polite and expresses a view that I am sure plenty share. But it is a position based on theory or belief rather than on fact.”
I share it Mike! The actual OT levels are not delivered, they were taken off the market, so to speak, and havent been put back. As to a “position based on theory or belief rather than on fact.” Some of us still remember our personality faults and problems pre-Scn auditing/training, and how they just are not there any more afterwards, and for that I am grateful.
It seems you have had a different experience of Scientology compared to many of us, me anyway, and by continuing to snipe at the tech, Ortega wise, you will prevent others from the chance at living their lives in a manner they can enjoy, once Dave is gone, and some semblance of actual Scientology can be put back. Hopefully this time done right!
Penny said, “The actual OT levels are not delivered, they were taken off the market, so to speak, and havent been put back. ”
LMAO! Yes, all those OTs made back then. That’s TOO funny.
Hi John Locke,Thank you for your post.Laughter is so good because I really felt like crying over some of the comm that comes through.But Mike is all good and so I trim my sails,lower the jib and head for a safe harbor.This Blog.Always Ann.
…and never will we be lost for the want of a well-sighted Captain.
Hi Mark Marco,Now that post is funny! Considering I can’t see a registrar coming at me from less than a foot away out of my left eye until that lens gets done 9/23.You’ll just have to take the helm and we’ll cut thru the waves like lightning! XXOO Ann.
For you I’d probably do anything, so (like my Dad used to say) be careful what you ask for, especially when deciding who your Captain shall be.
For you I would say ok. For you I would be such a pretender, but I would have to demand the responsibility of Navigator be placed upon you. I would board the ship only if I knew you carry your sights and keep your compass.
All for your eyes.
Hi Mark Marco, Your Dad was most wise. Well if I am to navigate it will have to be by the stars with running lights and the engine on,otherwise I might steer us in a direction we would not want to go!XO Ann.
Hi Penny, Well I read your post and you have your viewpoint and I’ll leave it at that.However you don’t know me and what happened to me with Ron etc I was one of the most loyal,committed Sea Org members when I joined.I was in for life.Then I saw the whole picture and got out before I collapsed from lack of food and a lot worse lack of empathy or help.You can live your life any way you see fit,but there are a lot is us who are committed to fighting for and helping those who are still in and paying with their lives and souls.Believe me there are two sides to every story.The white side and the black side.Ann B.
Ann, I agree that the fight for those who are and have been abused should continue until it is over. One way or another that will happen! My concern, as someone who has benefited from auditing and training, is that it will be available to others. That is my hope anyway.
Hi Penny,Thank you for your post,I agree with your point on auditing.Always Ann B.
Spiritual Love, Penny, but that hope is crushed already.
Trust me. No technology is worth using if one must first sacrifice reason in order to use it.
Hi Penny, I say it is in our psychological DNA to improve ourselves. It is our nature to “do it better the next time”. Some are more committed than others but after time most of us get rid of a lot of those troublesome behavior patterns from our younger days. It happens naturally.
Hi Penny, It’s alright to walk away with a little glory from all of this defeat. That does not mean anything is wrong with you. In fact, I am not ashamed at all. Some people can’t get laid in a whore house with a hundred dollar bill.
That said, I do not see anything about Mike that I could weigh on the same scale with Tony Ortega. He can grant Ortega beingness.
But Mike has a view not many were or ever will by privy to. And what he does is notice outpoints and mention them. Mentioning something is an ethics gradient. Every time the Church throws out a veil of illusion, he pokes a hole through it. I find that very magical actually. Not to mention, funny. He also forwards valuable information.
And I do not get his posts mixed up with other people’s posts.
What Tony does is dig for dirt. And the reporting is slanted towards the dirt. Which is fair too. Since the Church digs for dirt all the way Private investigators to hidden cameras in the auditing room. In fact, the “cream” of theri customers is ordered to arrive every six months to give them an opportunity to dig for dirt.
There is nothing even similar to what Mike does, and what the other two do.
Again, I am glad you can carry from glory out of it all. I have no purpose to suffer and no goal lose across the boards. It’s a pay to play world.
XXOO
Good post,
Mike’s blog is far more entertaining than Ortega’s if all you ever read is dirt you end up dirty.
One likes facts about church skullduggery but too much too often is pointless
Facts do not = truth. You can read about a man who shot himself, if you do not know why, you are left with a partial truth. Or maybe even a half truth. You can read facts all day long and by the time you go to bed, you are loaded with more lies than when you woke up.
Oracle, you say facts do not = truth but you imply facts = lies. It’s where you said a person could read facts all day long and be “loaded” with more lies than before. It seems like you’re giving facts bad press. You know, like they’re the enemy.
Look at what it took for David Miscavige to admit that unbder his command, abortion was used as a form of discipline upon women. And that isn’t even the whole truth. The whole truth is, that makes him a serial killer with accomplices.
Incidentally, the papers filed in court, claiming the Church has the right to discipline women through abortion, has been sent to every woman’s rights organization in America.
Frankly, I see kool aid drinking as the lowest form of responsibility. And totally anti Scientology. David Miscavige is the biggest apostate in this arena.
I am happy to agree with you on that point, Truth Teller
(“too much skull duggery” is a waste of time)
Looking forward to standing on a lot of common ground, sir.
I do need a big space, as such, before I start being actually comfortable,
“Safe”
I’m so far from feeling safe… Those people inside are not free, not as long as they are punished for harboring doubt, for the voice of doubt is the only thing that protects Truth’s right to speak and be heard and be known as valid.
Please quote that, using my name or not.
Penny – What you posted is correct.
THE MAN IN THE ARENA
Excerpt from the speech “Citizenship In A Republic”, delivered at the Sorbonne, in Paris, France on 23 April, 1910
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
Almanac of Theodore Roosevelt
P.S. Tony Ortega is a critic. Mike Rinder is a survivor. who knew great enthusiasms, great devotions; who spent himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
Oracle, Wow. Good comments about Mike and Tony. I agree. And that eloquent speech I have saved for years on my computer and I always attributed tit toTheodore Roosevelt. Nice to now know where it came from. You’re right that Mike’s place shall never be with those “cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.” Good job, Mike, Penny, and Oracle.
I just got a chill in the presence of the Oracle.
Mike, I think we should clarify that now the “OT Levels” are indeed different as when LRH was C/Sing in 1970 NOTs had not been discovered. The levels of OTI-III you mention are actually pre-OT levels, not actual OT Levels, which in theory or reality would be those levels above New OTVII Solo NOTs now. This is a minor nomenclature point but perhaps not so minor in effect and explanation for others who assume that when one has done OTIII for example one should have OT abilities of telekinesis or whatever other things people think are OT abilities, yet these levels up to VII are designed to remove the reasons why one cannot perform such actual OT abilities and on a consistent basis. The levels above that, in theory provide the OT abilities most commonly associated with OT, although as I have mentioned in earlier posts the New OTVIII on Freewinds is a watered down version of the original OTVIII.
Right. But those “old OT IV – VII” didn’t produce cause over matter, energy, life, space, form blah blah either. They were promoted as though they did, but then later it was changed. There was always something else needed, and there will always be something else needed. It’s why the promise of OT IX and X is SOOOO important. If they don’t exist, and you have EVERYTHING there is right here and right now, it does NOT live up to the promises.
AOLA was delivery “old” OT 7 until the late 80’s. No one got any OT abilities from it. Hmm, I guess they were all PTS. LOL
Well, I did “old” OT7 and I was actually performing OT abilities, for a short while until, as I say above the NOTs case kicked in. I have known many other people who state the same thing. Nothing to do with being PTS as you well know. Hmmm, I guess the people at AOLA were PTS to you John? LOL!
Foolproof, extraordinary claims require…
Well, you know the drill by now.
Don’t worry John, your name is top of the list when the wicked OTs go seeking some victims to fry just for good fun. But then you’ve already fried yourself so maybe we won’t bother. Keep looking over your shoulder – the OTs are coming to get you!
Better. Much better acknowledgment of the originator.
Would a Green Green form help at all?
))))))))))))))))))))
Welcome back Foolproof, about time we had some positive posts instead of criticism of abilities not gained.
Mike, don’t tell me you actually believe that a Grade 1 completion will never encounter a problem again.
Life isn’t like that, thats the fun of this game.
But at least LRH gave us the tools and laid a path that does work.
No one has to walk it, many posters here simply walk on the grass and moan about the because they step in dog shit.
TT, no sane person expects that the EPs listed by El Con are true. Don’t ’bout that.
Mike – The original (not “old”) OT IV-VII never said they produced cause over MEST. The EP of original OT VII was “exterior at will with perceptics”. The presumption was that all prior steps on the Grade Chart were done to EP without uncorrected errors.
Quite correct Nickname. There were some intention drills though as well, I recall.
Foolproof I have an explanation to be considered.
The reason why people cannot perform “OT” abilities is because “OT abilities” require thought to have impact on matter. That would mean subjective reality would have to impinge upon objective or empirical reality. There is no evidence this has ever happened and claims that it is possible must must be backed up with demonstrations of it. Otherwise we must stick to the conventional wisdom based on universal experience that thought only effects the person who is the experiencer or thinker of the thought. The only interface between the subjective and empirical realms is the flesh and blood entity called the ‘human being’.That we can call “axiomatic” until it is demonstrated otherwise. In other words, the only way thought or intention or postulates can have any effect on the physical world is by motivating a physical apparatus to act upon it physically.
er you may want to experience poltergeist activity, true that Thetan is “fully” exterior but can and does influence physical matter.
You made a very interesting point here
TruthTeller, I have experienced what would be interpreted as poltergeist activity were I inclined to prefer more fanciful explanations than what the natural sciences provide. I don’t believe in poltergeists and unless you’re able to provide me with that experience by going exterior and rattling some of the dishes in my cupboard, I will remain firm. Your assertion about “thetans” being able to “rattle the dishes”, as it were, isn’t based on evidence is it? It’s based on belief.
Therefore you haven’t refuted my comment but you have entertained me. Being entertained beats being refuted any day of the week. 🙂
Roger Roger, you’re helping me out here, thanks.
Glad it is not only me and critical thinking, here.
Silly me,
it is everybody and critical thinking vs. tech and its believers.
Odds are we win, if we were going by the simple numbers, you know, if you wanted to take both tech and critical thought out of the equation.
Believers vs. everybody. Silly as that sounds, that is exactly how a Scientologist adds it up.
But, the real equation is indeed Critical Thought vs. Tech.
What part of tech is not imagination?
How well does tech hold uo, discarding The Reactive Mind, Engrams, Thetans, Clear , OT and The Bridge To Total Freedom, as none of those things can be proven to exist? Especially since The Bridge and everything that happens on it is kept so secret?
And I haven’t even starting talking about the damage Scn does do, which is an unfair handicap on myself. The net result of tech is how the people come out of it at the bottom line. One brutally ripped family per starving, financially ruined and unpaid Scientologist, is what I’m looking at. That is the end result of tech. Can I shut up now-
Or do you wish to invite more?
Thank you Mark. You seem like you have a lot to say and the cure for that is to say it. That’s my prescription anyway. You look like you’re putting it all together with a lot of heart thrown in. Without the heart it’s a wasteland! I think Ann keeps things on track in that department.
Hi Roger Hornaday, My old heart does try to keep stuff on track.If and when I get stuck I can always post you! Love,Ann.
Roger, god, I did get myself a little worked up there, huh?.. completely forgot who I was addressing by the end. Felt good, but…Thanks for coming back into the string; grounded me, hm.
“If you have PTP’s, Overt and witholds etc, etc you won’t get any better the Tech states this.”
In other words, the tech claims that if the tech doesn’t work it’s the user’s fault. How convenient for the tech. This can be solved very quickly — Would the real OT please stand up and demonstrate OT powers, as claimed by the tech to be achievable? Bueller? Bueller?
I waited to respond hgc10 until any OTs could. I count ZERO! 🙂
I guess “Seek and Ye shall find” doesn’t work for you. I see Anthony Robbins just for starters.
Yes any ot’s please stand up. LOL.
hgc10, I’m not an OT or even close. I’m pretty low on the Bridge. But I do know something about overts and witholds, which is that when a person has harmed a person or an area then the person withdraws from that person or area. Bringing it to light and airing it via communication is very freeing for the person who has the withold because it puts him or her back in communication with that person.
Now, before I get descended upon like a ducks on a junebug after a summer squall 🙂 let me acknowledge that “pulling” overts and witholds in auditing will never work, never never never work, never make the PC better, unless the PC himself considers that what he did was an overt that was witheld. It is the preclear ONLY who decides what his overts are. Someone, the auditor, sec checker, etc TELLING him what his overts are, evaluating of any kind for the PC is just more abberation and will really mess the person up and make him much worse.
Fortunately, I’ve never had that kind of horrible “auditing” but I know that many people have. When I “gave up” overts and in session I had expert auditing with no evaluation by the auditor or anyone, for that matter. There was no preconceived ending that had to be arrived at. I decided what my overts were, and got to look at my witholds about them, and I have to tell you, it was a very freeing and beneficial experience. I had been carrying around horrible guilt about something for many years. I can’t reveal the details but it was quite serious, the consequences of what I had done, or rather, what I had not done.
Point being, I did improve considerably after the auditing I had.
Again, though, this was not sec checking. I was a public, never staff or SO.
You who were betrayed and damaged, you who suffered these abuses, please know that your experiences will never be denied or invalidated by me. These things happened. I believe you. And, as inadequate as it may sound, I am sorry.
Aqua, “confessionals” are a VERY old practice in religion. People have been experiencing ” I had been carrying around horrible guilt about something for many years. I can’t reveal the details but it was quite serious,…” for centuries. El Con didn’t invent “confessional tek”.
…he [LRH] did employ confessionals against the believers, as a practice.
tisk tisk, such a violation of good faith, I do say.
Hi Aquamarine, I like your comment and I personally feel there is a place for metered interview therapy. Ask any devout Catholic and they’ll tell you they have walked away from the confession booth feeling like the weight of the world has been lifted off their shoulders. Confessing your sins works. I think the metered interview may be an advancement as it helps detect habitually ignored thoughts typically referred to as “self-deception”. It is possible to feel like a million bucks after an auditing session. I think there is timeless and universal benefit to that.
Hi Aquamarine, A beautiful post.You are amazing and such a sweet kind spirit.I love reading all you post.XO Ann.
Aquamarine,
Nice post, you seem to have had some bad auditing in the past. An auditor should NEVER evaluate for a PC in session.
You say an Overt is so only if the person considers it so.
This is true however if something reads on the meter from a list or a question then the auditor must run it to F/N.
The meter registers on things below the PC’s actual awareness.
The Auditor “steers” the PC to viewing the problem,
There is of course a “false Read” but a skilled auditor would recognise this from observing the PC and handle any BPC the false read caused.
Indicating such to F/N usually deals with this.
I see the usual replies berating LRH ‘s Tech for dealing with guilt caused by witholds.
Amazing how it stirs up cases when you mention overts and witholds, really interesting.
No one said LRH invented the confessional, but he did work out a way of dealing with these problems and the e-meter was not available in the 15th century for those Cathlic priests.
Truth Teller – To keep this a brief as possible, in my experience, you are correct. I would ask one question, myself: In which year was “Declared Clear” instituted? Wasn’t that around 1981-82?
Not quite sure what you mean by “Declared Clear” but Dianetic Clear came out in late 1978.
Yes Foolproof. And people being “declared clear” started in ’66 by El Con at St. Hill.
Foolproof – Thank you. !978 is after LRH left the church sometime in 1976.
“1978 is after LRH left the church sometime in 1976.”
the Catholic church maybe.
I don’t know knickname but I do know John Locke probably knows what he’s talking about. I wonder, though, if LRH was letting go of the wheel, so to speak, and my feeling is that he did, in fact, begin that process with the release of Hymn of Asia, which, am I right, came out in 1975.
Nickname, again I am not sure what you mean? LRH never left the Church and was writing HCOBs up until his death, including the HCOBs on Dianetic Clear in 78 and 79. If you mean did he “officially” relinquish his management post then yes he did I believe but that was a shore story for the government.
Foolproof – Sorry, yes I meant Dianetic Clear. There was also Natural Clear. This blog is becoming more like the open outcry trading pits in Chicago. A guy in Switzerland (I forget his name) concluded he would trust everything up to 1976. Some guy by the name of Rey Robles posted some videos comparing four or five versions of the Bridge (Google / YouTube). No evaluations, really – some serious skepticism about the current Co$ version.
Hi Foolproof,I am with you regarding your post about Ron.Thank you.Always, Ann.
How is this shit not outright fraud? Where are the fucking Feds when doors need to be kicked open and fucking criminals need to be ordered to the ground?
It is a matter of which belief system one subscribes to.Close observation and the scientific method indicates that it takes about the same level of cognitive dissonance to remain in lockstep with Dan Sherman and Dave [ED deleted political commentary as I don’t want to derail this thread into the inevitable right v left arguments]
While France took this attitude, and convicted the criminal organisation known as the “church” of $cientology for organised fraud, the courts in the US are taking a view which favours looking the other way when “faith” is in the loop.
That doesn’t mean that the narCONon practising-medicine-without-a-license fraud (which isn’t “religious,” is it?) or the various illegal activities (convincing victims of crimes to not go to the police) are not possible to prosecute in the US, but the bar is set high. And former victims need to report crimes early and often (and they need to get lucky when looking for law enforcement people to whom to report this – the same goes even for France, we have to admit).
Sandy, 1st Amendment. I know it is frustrating for non-Americans to understand though.
OMG Sandy Duncan, you have every right to say that. You have every right to demand that.
Justice is mud until you are heard, my friend, until you are answered.
Excellent observation Mr. Rinder, it would seem that the people that went through the clearing course, I, II, III, VII EP, and III, and then IV and were left without any NOTS settled right down to getting things done. The early completions became interested(not interesting) usually finding them doing 6 or 8 things at once(not the least of which was pandering for the church). There were wild things afoot(ingo swann and company) and the future was bright. There was a time when you met a new III, and got the feeling you needed to make sure the guy didn’t float away.
Now? We can all see the effect of selling “pie in the sky”. I don’t know what changed, but I can see the difference. Today books don’t make booms. In my opinion, RESULTS make booms. PC’s and Pre-OTs coming out of session that couldn’t be beaten into writing a success story. Management that never gets mentioned(either in the org or the media). A division 2 that only exists to point the customer in the right direction and write invoices(IE anyone could do it). The flat ball bearing business is practically at a stand still.
RESULTS, the reason everyone I know came to scientology. The reason so many joined staff. It’s an easy puzzle to solve. It would seem that just removing NOTS(4,5,6,7) and restoring the line up that brought the church so many people(and so much money) would be the way to proceed. Then again, maybe that’s just me. Thanking you in advance for your attention, Henry
It’s not just you. One guy also commented that the earlier people were more interested in Scn for the discovery and philosophy, while later people were a) part of the hippie-drug crowd, with drug cases, and b) were looking help. I think you also, later on, ran into the problems of any expanding organization – it gets harder to keep together and manage in a coherent manner.
“… were looking FOR help.”
The reason why NOTs was introduced (by LRH) is that the OT abilities one achieved from the “old” OT Levels of 4,5,6 and 7 were transitory because of the vagaries and interference of the NOTs case. The unfortunate thing is that Miscavige hasn’t gotten around to re-releasing them or the others that LRH wrote up.
Your point on books make booms being false is somewhat misleading as to obtain results on people they must be in the Org receiving services and reading a book usually achieves that purpose for a good percentage that do (until they encounter the IAS registrar of course which drives them out of the Org). Almost one for one the people I know who have achieved good results from their auditing came into the Org after reading a book, and usually DMSMH, although that fact is somewhat modified by Miscavige’s attempts to drive them out the door the other way.
No, the reason NOTs was introduced was that LRH got VERY ill, called David Mayo from Flag to fix him up (as his previous auditor was busted) and then complained he was getting worse on Dianetics. He then told Mayo what to do, what commands and the theory of what was happening. NOT’s is L. Ron Hubbard’s “research” into his OWN case. Not other people’s. Believe me, this is EXACTLY what happened. I was there at the time and I subsequently had to study all the correspondence, orders, conference transcripts and back and forth on the development of NOTs when RTC sued Mayo for stealing NOTs.
If what you say is true, then LRH would have put NOTs as a prerequisite to the “old 4-7” but he did not. He REPLACED them.
Sorry, this is just reality.
Mike, are you sure it was LRH who replaced the old OT levels? I’ve only read posts that stated LRH was not the one who did the replacements. One blog post quoted Ron’s Journal 30 as follows:
“NED for OTs can be given any time after OT III and before OT VIII and is a prerequisite for OT VIII.” https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/alaska-goes-independent/
Another website quoted from that same Ron’s Journal, giving the following lineup (from Clearing Course up):
————————————–
5. The Clearing Course. …
6. Operating Thetan I. …
7. OT II.
8. OT III. This is the big step and one has to allow time for it.
9. OT III Expanded.
10. OT VII. This is an auditing step by a professional OT auditor. It can be given in any sequence after OT III Expanded and before OT VIII. (Editor’s Note: yes, it is not a mistake, OT VII comes after OT III and before OT IV.)
11. NED for OTs. This is the big news of the OT world. … There is very wild excitement on the results of NED for OTs as, of course, they’ve never been seen before on this or any other planet. NED for OTs can be given any time after OT III and before OT VIII and is a prerequisite for OT VIII.
12. OT IV.
13. OT V.
14. OT VI.
OT VIII. (Editor’s Note: please note, OT VIII comes after OT VI because OT VII comes after OT III.)
————————————
http://scnil.org/english/sample-page/ot-levels/
Yes, I am sure.
that’s not what Mayo told me when I spoke at length with him in “The Ship” in East Grinstead.
The fact that the the data contained in the SOLO Nots issues I have read, reads when addressed is good enough for me.
Its like saying a PC gets a read on he “likes to smoke” but dismiss this because LRH smoked so the PC is just going along with what LRH does. Not well written but you get the picture
You run what reads Mike, why all this discussion about NOTS and how it came and where it came from?
If its not true for you then it isn’t true for you and perhaps a study of Hinduism or snake handling will take you where you wish to go.
Don’t get all stroppy, this was supposed to be lighthearted
I was not the one that brought it up. I simply offered the data I had in response to comments. I should know by now that it is pretty much a waste of time to do so. Not trying to give you or anyone else a hard time. Simply trying to provide information that fills the vacuum, or replaces the numerous lies that surround the subject of scientology.
“…why all this discussion about NOTS and how it came and where it came from?”
Truth Teller, I don’t think Mike was saying LRH wasn’t the one who developed NOTs. The exchange had to do with the fact that the original OT levels on the Bridge were replaced with the various NOTs rundowns which became the “New” OT levels. The question was whether LRH was the one who made that change.
The only LRH reference I know of was the one I quoted above, both quotes of which indicate LRH did not make the change. Apparently, Mike is or was privy to some other source of info that gave him reason to think otherwise.
@ Mike
Since you’ve gone this far in the discussion, I would appreciate it if you would briefly state the source of your info. Thanks.
The source of the info is me. I was there and then read all the transcrcipts and despatches back and forth and the subsequent proposals on the structure of the Grade Chart.
But what does it matter. If you want to do “old” OT 4-7 go for it.
I think those old processes and the creative processes are some of the funnest stuff in scientology.
Okay, thanks. I’m assuming you mean dispatches and proposals from LRH himself. If not, please specify who made the proposals and if LRH knew. In any case, you are really valuable in having first-hand info!
Mike: “But what does it matter. If you want to do ‘old’ OT 4-7 go for it. I think those old processes and the creative processes are some of the funnest stuff in scientology.”
Sorry, I didn’t see the above part of your comment at first. The reason it matters is that if it’s an alteration by DM, it might account for why certain OT abilities haven’t been realized. I’ve read that those original levels drilled intention and telepathy, as examples.
That’s so cool that you thought they were fun!
p.s. To clarify, where I wrote about LRH not making “the change,” I meant the change to the Bridge when the original OT levels were replaced with NOTs rundowns and those rundowns became the “New” OT levels.
Btw, I don’t think anyone claims LRH cancelled the original OT levels.
Fair comment Mike.
But you do so stir things up don’t you.
Not a bad thing to do is it invites excellent posts from the sane and riduculous post from the insane, but one gets a good laugh either way.
Have a nice weekend.
Mike your theory (or someone else’s theory that you have agreed with) on the genus of NOTs does not explain why thousands of people have gone on to find exactly the same phenomena on their cases as LRH found on his. As to the “old” OTIV-VII these would simply have been bumped up the line to beyond New OTVII Solo NOTs. NOTs is a pre-requisite to New OTVIII – I don’t think one needs to state “and all other OT Levels as well”.
You missed my point. I only responded to your claim about how NOTs was simply preparatory to the real OT levels, ie “old” 4-7.
Why do you think this is a “theory” about the genus of NOTs? Because I saw it and you didn’t and you don’t agree so therefore it is a “theory”?
Look Foolproof, I know all the NOTs series pretty well and have a chronological understanding of all of Scn. Part of NOTs Tech is the “Handling of a physical condition”. One runs out “BTs” being an illness, a physical condidion, etc, etc, and allegedly handle those physical symptoms by blowing them up.
As L-12 allegedly handles the reason one is likely to become PTS to anybody or anything, and as DNs as in NED and NOTs handles FULLY any physical condition, then how come LRH was never able to handle his chronic pancreatitis ? How come he suffered 2 strokes? That data is to be found in LRH’s coroner’s report, which LRH’s personal doctor confirmed officially.
If you are trained as an auditor which you seems to be, then you should know pretty well that the way LRH researched ANY OT level was by doing it on himself first. He researched NOTs in 1978 with the help of Mayo (following his instructions). And if mere “mortals” can even finish Solo-NOTs in as fast as 2 years, it is VERY logical to assume that LRH must have finished it on himself long, long before 1986. In fact, I have quite a few testimonies that he did close to 2,000 hrs of NOTs (Solo).
He must has done original VIII as well where one allegedly recover whole track recall and the ability to actually handle MEST as a being (I know the class VIII lectures almost by heart and have the original class VIII materials in my possesion. I can quote you from them anything you like with the page number and the exact parragraphs.
So not only he was a OT VIII completion, but even beyond that as he claimed that there were at least 15 OT levels beyond original VII fully researched which means he DID THEM ALL.
He claimed to have recovered ALL of the material of OT III, not just the stuff you run at III which is just BTs from Inc II , mostly. The complete 36 hours of the alleged implant, every detail of it, he claimed he had it.
He wasn’t even R6ed according to him , and OT III allegedly taught us to be sick. He was able to “escape” as a spirit from the “In-Between Lives Area” , and even go back there (not with the E-meter but ACTUALLY there) and get ALL the information. I mean, he was THAT able, he claimed.
And he couldn’t even defeat death ? He couldn’t pick up another body to complete the job, or do you think he did completed it ? I am curious.
He had to hide from the goverment in his last 7 years on Earth, or do you really believe that he was finishing his job, and that just willingly left his body to engage in “upper level research” ? I am curious as well about your viewpoint on that.
Please argument w/out falling into Q&Aing with my question, in what ways exactly LRH demonstrated the workability of his OWN OT levels in the last years of his life ?
You should know VERY well that most of the OT levels are done solely based on reads , not based in any actual comm with any “BTs”. Do you have a full DNs recall of your own inc I or II ? DO you have a full DNs recall of any of the implants of OT II ? Do you ?
The fact is that you only guide yourself by reads, and ASSUME that those reads represent what LRH told you they represent. How is that scientific ? How is that a proved fact ? Just because you have wins on it ?
Isn’t it convinient to say that us “mortals” doesn’t have whole track recall, and that just have to trust him to be right ?
The fact is, dear Foolproof, that the greatest OT to allegedly having walked this Earth couldn’t even be cause over his own body. Couldn’t even return to clean his own mess he left when he died. Those are FACTS, not opinions. I am curious as to what is your explanation for that, or are you just going to resort to personal attacks and sarcasms to Q&A with the subject ?
I am waiting for your answers.
TC
Correction : I should have said “36 days of the implant” , not 36 hours.
The subject of NOTs and other OT Levels seems to stir up a hornet’s nest of commenting, both pro and contra.
It is quite obvious that LRH researched nearly all rundowns on himself first but he may have also piloted them on others. The OT Levels would undoubtedly have been the former case of these two options. What is now being represented here is that because he did the original research on himself that there is somehow something wrong with doing that. If the methods and actions that were then run on people subsequently failed to provide the same results then obviously those methods and actions would be false, but they did not prove out to be false did they? Thousands of others have found exactly the same phenomena. The fact that “LRH did the research on himself” is being presented in a sort of snide way of “proving” that it is all “not very scientific”. What has “science” and massive teams of laboratories and funded studies ever discovered about the human mind and life? Nothing, and you know it. It is all very well stating something that one then expects others to agree with straight away, but then don’t expect (some of) them to not examine the follow-through of the question.
You might recall from your materials that you would find that Scientology and Dianetics is not concerned with the preservation of the form (the body) but in reducing the effect of the reactive mind which has – as its sole (false) purpose – the preservation of the form (the body). A form (the body) wears out, like any engine. LRH’s body wore out, like any other body. There is no material in Scientology that has as its goal the preservation of the body so you really should not imply by your remarks that it does.
As to Miscavige’s and/or Brokers message about LRH “doing research outside of the body”, I as a Scientologist thought that was a crock of shit. There again is no material in Scientology which states such. What Miscavige and Broker’s purpose was here I do not know but it seems it was a silly attempt to assuage any upset Scientologists may have had. It was a totally daft thing to do. But that had nothing to do with LRH nor Scientology as a subject. That was Miscavige’s and Broker’s ridiculous invented story.
If some people cannot communicate with BTs then as per usual they are not set up to do these levels properly or haven’t reached that point on the Grade Chart, which is the same thing. I can and I know scores of others who do and did. It is nothing to do with a blind faith reliance on reads. (The reads actually occur as a result of communication.) Although reads are of course a physical manifestation so I don’t see what the problem would be on that anyway. No reads would be an indication that something was wrong, not the obtaining of reads – straightforward physical universe evidence that something is happening. So – ??? As Mike quite lucidly stated on here some time ago trying to “prove” subjective gains is almost impossible. Reads however are an objective result but one could argue back and forth about this – for eternity.
As to your “scientific” attack on the OT Levels, why are you worried about this aspect of them? If they are “unscientific” in your opinion then don’t do them. The choice is yours. No one is forcing you to do them. Even in Miscavige’s church no one is forcing anyone to do them. If anyone wants to believe your “scientific” reasoning or believe that Scientology should be subjected to vast teams of funded laboratories with psychiatrists in white coats deciding on what read or didn’t read or what is valid or not, and are persuaded not to do them therefore, then in my opinion they are cutting their own spiritual throat.
So, in the end, whose hands would you rather be in for your spiritual renaissance ? A laboratory of white-coated psychiatrists – or an auditor? The choice is yours.
I enjoy the sharing of viewpoints and appreciate the fact that you and some others are willing to put yours forth in a reasonable fashion — though I don’t always agree with the reason. I think you will be interested in my post for tomorrow that addresses some of these points very directly. Hopefully this back and forth will now trail off as neither side is convincing the other (I don’t think) and we can get on with something less serious, today’s Regraded Being.
Hi Mike, Hooray to you and Regraded Being! Here comes the Sun! Love,Ann.
You just went over the tangent here , and avoided to answer my Qs head on ; something very typical for KSW supporters when they feel cornered . I’ll show you how it is done.
Foolproof : “The subject of NOTs and other OT Levels seems to stir up a hornet’s nest of commenting, both pro and contra.”
Peter : And what did you expect with all the hype surrounding them ?
Foolproof : “It is quite obvious that LRH researched nearly all rundowns on himself first but he may have also piloted them on others. The OT Levels would undoubtedly have been the former case of these two options. What is now being represented here is that because he did the original research on himself that there is somehow something wrong with doing that.”
Peter : I never said that ; you totally assumed it. There is nothing wrong with researching things on ourselves , but to use mostly oneself as a test subject is totally unscientific. These things require , as in any field of science , cross verification by others , in coordinated research. But according to LRH , we humans only agree on “bank ideas” , and only he had enough intellect and insight to do a “perfect” and “unbiased” job.
Foolproof : If the methods and actions that were then run on people subsequently failed to provide the same results then obviously those methods and actions would be false, but they did not prove out to be false did they? Thousands of others have found exactly the same phenomena.”
Peter : Really ? Had you really talked with thousands of them ? Do you have any records of that ? What a hype. And what same results are you talking about ? That something read ? I am not dismissing the idea of parasitic infestation ; that theory is 5,000 years old. I am not dismissing the existence of many unexplained spiritual phenomena. In fact , I have a much better grasp of that phenomena than most Solo-NOTs completions. Psychic phenomena runs in the family. But this is not the issue. The issue is that the abilities allegedly produced are just hype ; mere exaggerations. “Cause over life” ? Come come , I personally know a lots of Solo-NOTs (highly trained individuals , many under LRH himself) completions who has all kinds of body illnesses , life chronic PTPs , fixations , etc , etc , even after “standard” repairs and remedies such as FPRD and the Ls RDs. I mean a LOT of them. Now , “Cause over life ” means just that , and life is allegedly composed of 8 dynamics including that of the body.
Foolproof : “The fact that “LRH did the research on himself” is being presented in a sort of snide way of “proving” that it is all “not very scientific”.
Peter : You totally missed it ; I can’t infer that assumption of yours from any of the comments on this thread. The argument is not against him having researched anything on himself , but that he excluded others from participating on that research as a verification mechanism just as with any competent research . And that he never showed us with ANY type of research records ; he only said he had them , but NOBODY has ever seen them. Have you ever seen them , MiKe ?
Foolproof : What has “science” and massive teams of laboratories and funded studies ever discovered about the human mind and life? Nothing, and you know it.”
Peter : What are you doing assuming an answer from me in the first place ? I am a real scientist. And there has never been any researches in the scientific media about life and the mind as such , only Freud did something resembling that , but just by himself. So I don’t know what “researches” you are referring to. Please present your records.
Foolproof : “It is all very well stating something that one then expects others to agree with straight away, but then don’t expect (some of) them to not examine the follow-through of the question.”
Peter : You are not “following up on any of my Qs ; you just Q&Aed with them as most KSW supporters do.
Foolproof : “You might recall from your materials that you would find that Scientology and Dianetics is not concerned with the preservation of the form (the body) but in reducing the effect of the reactive mind which has – as its sole (false) purpose – the preservation of the form (the body). A form (the body) wears out, like any engine. LRH’s body wore out, like any other body.”
Peter ; Wow!!! , now , that’s a totally new “angle” to explain this ; his 74 years old body wore out , and my grandpa lasted for 99 years , never a Scientologist ,totally a “wog” , and he could even work till his last day. Do you want to know what LRH thought about “old age” ? here is is :
“Is nothing more than a confirmed low tone on the physiological side” (5203CM05B)
And here is LRH’s own definition for “Operating Thetan” which he allegedly was one of them :
“A being at cause over matter , energy , space , time , form and life” (Tech Dic #5)
If you have ever listened to the original unedited class VIII lectures (I have at least 20x each) , you would know that LRH said that body sickness came from Inc II , “They taught us to be sick” , he said. And he having been the ONLY one to have gotten ALL (not part) of the material from OT III (that allegedly almost cost him his body life) , it should be easily assumed that he must have known how to tackle that. PLUS he was a Super Power completion , an ALL Ls completion , and an OT 22 completion. And are you now to tell me that at 74 , an age that many USA presidents have a full operational life (under an incredible stress , 100x more than the one LRH had) , and with all his alleged gained abilities , he couldn’t even slow down body deterioration ? Come on , Foolproof , you are not making any sense here.
Fool proof : “There is no material in Scientology that has as its goal the preservation of the body so you really should not imply by your remarks that it does.”
Peter : I implied nothing ; I only pointed out about LRH’s own allegations of what Scn is capable of producing. He should have at least , if all his claims about Scn were true , to be able to easily complete his job , w/out being the effect of any strokes. Besides , he had a chronic pancreatitis sits since decades before he died , which he not just couldn’t handle with his marvelous and perfect Tech ,but he needed to resort to medical drugs to treat it , not even with natural remedies. What more proof can you possible need ?
Foolproof : “As to Miscavige’s and/or Brokers message about LRH “doing research outside of the body”, I as a Scientologist thought that was a crock of shit. There again is no material in Scientology which states such. What Miscavige and Broker’s purpose was here I do not know but it seems it was a silly attempt to assuage any upset Scientologists may have had. It was a totally daft thing to do. But that had nothing to do with LRH nor Scientology as a subject. That was Miscavige’s and Broker’s ridiculous invented story.”
Peter : Gee , at least you can accept that. And what does that tell you about LRH’s alleged “OTism” ?
Foolproof : “If some people cannot communicate with BTs then as per usual they are not set up to do these levels properly or haven’t reached that point on the Grade Chart, which is the same thing.”
Peter : Not some , but a LOT of them ; you know that they mostly resort to verifying the reads themselves ,even after they get a “concept” , just a “concept” of allegedly what the BT communicated he was , and that he is himself. These are vague concepts with most Solo-Auditors that I now , and I know a LOT of them. Stop pretending that there is any actual and real comm , not that this never occur for some also.
Foolproof : “I can and I know scores of others who do and did. It is nothing to do with a blind faith reliance on reads. (The reads actually occur as a result of communication.) Although reads are of course a physical manifestation so I don’t see what the problem would be on that anyway.”
Peter : The problem is that you and others are ASSUMING that the significance of the read is that which LRH tell you it is. That’s the problem. That something read doesn’t necessarily tell you nothing , but just that you reacted to something. What that something is , is a sea of possibilities.
Foolproof : “No reads would be an indication that something was wrong, not the obtaining of reads – ”
Peter : According to you , perhaps and LRH’s authoritarian approaches to knowledge. How do you know ? Have you done your own research on the e-meter ? Show me your records. How can you possible be certain that a “no read” is necessarily something wrong ; you are just parroting LRH as most KSW supporters do.
Foolproof : “straightforward physical universe evidence that something is happening. So – ??? As Mike quite lucidly stated on here some time ago trying to “prove” subjective gains is almost impossible. Reads however are an objective result but one could argue back and forth about this – for eternity.”
Peter : Only because it is unscientific requiring only faith in LRH for their interpretation.
Foolproof : “As to your “scientific” attack on the OT Levels, why are you worried about this aspect of them? If they are “unscientific” in your opinion then don’t do them. The choice is yours. No one is forcing you to do them.”
Peter : And how can you possible know whether I have done then or not ? that’s a presumptuous assumption on your part. And I worry about nothing , except forcing others to believe in unverified claims , and getting paid for that at usually $200 the hour in the Indie Field ,a lot higher than any therapy. That’s what I care about. Do all OT levels for all I care ; it is your life , not mine. I have absolutely NOTHING against others practicing in whatever the hell they want to participate in. But don’t come here with fundamentalist claims unsupported by empirical data , or you’ll see me right behind your back , alerting others of any fallacies.
Foolproof : “Even in Miscavige’s church no one is forcing anyone to do them. If anyone wants to believe your “scientific” reasoning or believe that Scientology should be subjected to vast teams of funded laboratories with psychiatrists in white coats deciding on what read or didn’t read or what is valid or not, and are persuaded not to do them therefore, then in my opinion they are cutting their own spiritual throat.”
Peter : Again , you are assuming a thing I never said ; is this an habit of yours ? Your disdain for science is typical LRH. Of course he had to make sure to attack science ; his followers would not then have any correct tools to analyze his allegations and exaggerated claims. The perfect set up. And you are also assuming , again blindly following LRH , that psychiatrists are all bad , unscientific , and incompetent. I can show you dozens of them who would totally dead agent that belief. But I guess that you are not even willing to look into that.
Foolproof : “So, in the end, whose hands would you rather be in for your spiritual renaissance ? A laboratory of white-coated psychiatrists – or an auditor? The choice”
Peter : In my OWN hands , thank you very much. I had enough incompetent auditors over the years , who could not even match my auditing speed ,always missing the reads left and right even Flag trained IXners. I do just fine with Solo(ing) myself. I don’t need to follow any strict dogmas neither assume the “standardness” of “Standard Tech” , and blindly believe in any unsupported claims. I just test everything the way it should be.
Nice talking to you.
Best regards ,
Peter
Peter or Theta Clear: After your incredibly long and painstaking rebuttal of my remarks, at the end of it all you admit to doing your own version of solo auditing presumably based in some degree on what L Ron Hubbard discovered, presumably using some sort of E-Meter the technology of which and its usage is only explained and practiced in Scientology and by L Ron Hubbard, and you seem to be worried about reads on the E-Meter on your own case even though you disparaged the idea of accepting reads in your original remarks above as being unscientific. You then state that you “test” things (without saying how) – and so it is now then ok if your test things on yourself but if LRH does then that is not “scientific”. Your words (on reads) are “Only because it is unscientific requiring only faith in LRH for their interpretation.” Well, you shouldn’t then have worried about auditors missing your reads then – it wasn’t “tested.” What do you do then with your reads? Do you apply some sort of handling that is based on Scientology principles for dealing with the reads? Were these handlings then invented by L Ron Hubbard? I suggest before you do any more of your own version of solo auditing that you subject it to full and thorough testing – but now I must admit to being sarcastic.
What does Miscavige’s and Broker’s shore story about LRH’s death have to do with LRH’s “OTism”. I see no connection.
As to “science” in connection to mental studies you are quite correct – I have a total disdain for science in connection to mental studies because as you say no one has really attempted to do so.
I get answers to my questions in solo auditing, i.e. actual communication.
So after all of this you are indeed doing some form of solo auditing, using a meter presumably, watching for reads, presumably getting some sort of case gain, handling what comes up with some sort of Scientology based questioning and/or handling, and all of which concepts and actions have only come about and are based on the research (and testing) originally carried out by L Ron Hubbard.
“Peter or Theta Clear: After your incredibly long and painstaking rebuttal of my remarks, at the end of it all you admit to doing your own version of solo auditing presumably based in some degree on what L Ron Hubbard discovered, presumably using some sort of E-Meter the technology of which and its usage is only explained and practiced in Scientology and by L Ron Hubbard, and you seem to be worried about reads on the E-Meter on your own case even though you disparaged the idea of accepting reads in your original remarks above as being unscientific.”
Peter : Wrong again buddy, and for the 3rd time. You should duplicate my posts w/out all those assumptions of yours based on your imagination.
In the first place I said “Solo(ing)” , I didn’t say “LRH-style Solo(ing)”. And I never said “metered Solo(ing)” neither ; you assumed it ,Never did I said that “reads” are necessarily “unscientific” ; what I said was that any “read” only means that you reacted to something and nothing more. What read? is something to determine and verify, not to blindly believe.
What I also said was that interpreting reads solely based on what LRH tells you they mean w/out being willing to do your own analysis of it ; your own verification, is unscientific.
In the second place, the electropsychometer is not only used in Scn, and using it doesn’t necessarily means using only LRH’s writings on it. Have you ever heard of independent research ? I can use an E-meter, and test all kinds of needle behavior and determine for myself what is what. No need to blindly believe LRH at all. If he was right about something -which he was many, many times- then I have no problems whatsoever accepting it. As I said, I use Scn principles in my life on a daily basis. I never said Scn is unworkable, just unscientific and full of exaggerated claims.
In the 3rd place, as a PC -as opposed to what LRH wanted us to believe- one can “feel” something reacting. Quite aware individuals many times know that something should have read, meaning they feel that the item is charged, or that a right item has been bypassed. I could always “feel” those reactions, that something had indicated to me. But most auditors lack real obnosis, and are very slow to react. This happen because they have been throughly indoctrinated into the alleged “standardness” of “Standard Tech” so they never question ANYTHING . I wasn’t worry about whether or not they were missing reads ; I KNEW they were missing them, a different thing.
Nothing that I posted before has any contradictions to it, but of ALL I said, you just picked up what you thought was a contradiction, just to try to make a case and avoid, as you apparently always do, confronting my questions and arguments head on. You just Q&A with it all cause you are afraid that I might be right. All your stable data might just fall to pieces, and that scares you. I understand ; I was there myself.
“You then state that you “test” things (without saying how) – and so it is now then ok if your test things on yourself but if LRH does then that is not “scientific”.”
Peter : Wrong again for the 4th time. I never said that it was wrong of LRH or anybody else to test things on ourselves ; my goodness Foolproof, I even clarified that in my previous reply to you , and you reached the end of my post. I only said that LRH never allowed cross verifying his claims by other researchers , that he never out to the tests his allegations by other independent researchers.
Besides, I test things on myself for my OWN gain, I am not using it on others. And I am doing incredible good with what I am doing w/out all the strict dogmas of “Standard Tech”. In fact I have “violated” time after time “Standard Tech” not only with no ill consequences, but with a much better result that I had gotten when I was blindly following it.
“Your words (on reads) are “Only because it is unscientific requiring only faith in LRH for their interpretation.” Well, you shouldn’t then have worried about auditors missing your reads then – it wasn’t “tested.”
Peter : I meant by the above, that the reads that you do gets are interpreted by LRH as to what they mean , and based on faith on him, you blindly accept such explanations w/out testing things for yourself. I was never “worried” about they missing reads, I knew they were missing things that I felt I had reacted to them. How many times do I have to explain to you something so easy to understand ?
“What do you do then with your reads? Do you apply some sort of handling that is based on Scientology principles for dealing with the reads?
Peter : I use common sense, what you should be using. Do I use Scn ? Of course I do. Tell you what, study chronologically all of Scn for the last 15 years as I have done, every HCOB, EVERY LECTURE, EVERY BOOK. Then may be, just may be you’ll be able to understand my research. Then have a background in science and higher math ; study all you can aboutscientific methodology. Then come and “challenge me again. Am I being sarcastic enough. ?
“Were these handlings then invented by L Ron Hubbard? I suggest before you do any more of your own version of solo auditing that you subject it to full and thorough testing – but now I must admit to being sarcastic.”
Peter ;: I don’t care if something was invented or not by LRH ; I only care about if something works or not, be it from LRH or whoever it came from. And yes, I do put my methods to the test every time. But as I said, I used them to help myself, ; I do not use them with others. So far I am quite satisfied with results. Results I never got with “Standard Tech”.
“What does Miscavige’s and Broker’s shore story about LRH’s death have to do with LRH’s “OTism”. I see no connection.”
Peter : Doesn’t see the connection ? Gee, then I am not wasting my time on explaining that to you anymore. I think that I have already been clear enough about that.
“As to “science” in connection to mental studies you are quite correct – I have a total disdain for science in connection to mental studies because as you say no one has really attempted to do so.”
Peter : Your loss buddy.
“I get answers to my questions in solo auditing, i.e. actual communication. ”
Peter : Good for you then ; I am not going to doubt your assertions about that. If you can, then you can. But claiming than most Solo-auditors do is not a true statement.
“So after all of this you are indeed doing some form of solo auditing,using meter presumably, watching for reads, presumably getting some sort of case gain, handling what comes up with some sort of Scientology based questioning and/or handling, and all of which concepts and actions have only come about and are based on the research (and testing) originally carried out by L Ron Hubbard.”
Peter : You are again ASSUMING things here ; that’s totally against correct debating. You are just running around circles attempting to create an effect you can only hope to create. And you have been just avoiding all my Qs and only answering what is convinient to you. I have no problem with using LRH , by the way. You are under the false impression that I find Scn totally unworkable ; I don’t. I only find it unscientific in many ways and full of exaggerations and even many false claims.
I really wish you luck in your path with Scn. If it is helping you, I am more than happy with it. Just don’t pretend that Scn is infallible and error-free ; It ISN’T. And don’t buy into all the hype of it.
TC
I don’t remember ever reading about Scientology stating you won’t overcome bodily death.
LRH ran all of his research on himself, this of course meant he would have run 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of Dianteics when he was above Clear.
That would have taken its toll on any ones body.
The proof you seek may be in that missed read of yours.
You demonsrate an awful lot of BPC and uposet with LRH and the Technology itself.
Strange complaint from a Tech trained person who you claim to be?
I have found over the last 35 years its usually the barely trained Admin SO types that demonstrate complains from a subject they could never grasp let alone apply
If its all so awful and so bad why bother to interest yourself in something that you have seemingly failed in or given up on?
If you carry on like this you will end up like the OSA Trolls in here who post anti LRH rants intended for anyone thinking of leaving the Church to read and will probably then go back to the devil they know.
I have read with interest Foolproofs posts and Mike’s replies which I have not always agreed with but do read the replies between them.
I notice that FoolProof is ALWAYS positive in his response and does not have snidey and snotty remarks dressed up as genuine comments.
That speaks of a Higher Tone level than the people who heap shit on him, LRH and Scientology.
This blog was originally set up I assume to inform the public and ex-Scientogists of the current state of the C of S and its Leader.
The financial scams of the IAS and the lies they tell the membership.
I did not think the validity of the subject itself was the main purpose here and the special attention heaped on NED for OT’s.
I thought the EXSCN was the place for all this lunacy and carping, failed wailing cases whinging on about LRH , the Tech, the Policy, how terrible it all is.
No body twisted my arm when I finished DMSMH in 1977 and visited my first Org to start Basic courses.
No one beat me up and made me leave and resign when I did.
No shame no blame no regrets.
Not wishing to drone on but although the C of S is doing the wrong thing to its public at least in there they are positive about the future and Scientology.
Out here its all being sold as bad, fraudelent and unworkable Technology.
A dwindling spiral if ever there was one!
There are some oustanding Auditors available and there are some criminal Auditors available.
You have to choose the good from the bad. Basic study of the subject should make this easy.
Its a case of do you follow the rants of the “its all bad, doesn’t work, LRH is a fraud yip yap yip yap”.
Or do you find a decent C/S get the problem handled and actually make some case gain.
Can we continue like this from here on out or until Mike gest fed up with it all and throws in the towel?
I hope he doesn’t.
TruthTeller
I’ve been a techy from the very start. I too have observed what I would call outpoints or oddities in other scientologists and non-scientologists views of the tech. I concluded that their viewpoints were based on “learning” the tech through discussions or filling their own vacuums or suffering from “a little bit of knowledge being a dangerous thing. However the majority of the scientology structure are NOT trained”. From cob all the way down the command channel of the SO to Class V staff to the field the percentage of scientologists who are trained, who know the body of DN and Scn itself well enough to have real judgement on it is very, very small. When I say judgement I don’t mean to imply that unless they did study it in full they have no valid opinions or that they are being shallow to make evaluations or conclusions on such limited info. The views of the tech aired on the internet are as varied as the fall colors up north. To those of us who are trained and not only trained but have been applying it too it’s a bit scary to realize that the majority of a religion don’t even know the “scriptures” [church analogy of the tech to christianity so as to justify the “religion” status lie IMHO] and yet seem to have an opinion that even prevails over the experiences those of us who use it know that it is, what it does, what it can do.
I think the different views of it, the varied attitudes and opinions of it are nothing more than a microcosm of every other thing in life! It’s there. Like mountains and valleys and sunrises and sets people are going to have opinions, feelings, motives etc all come together and be expressed somehow whether it’s verbally or physically and that for me is just life. The real goal for me has always been to be a part of life that’s full of all kinds of strange and wonderful and dark and ugly and stupid and naive but THAT is all LIFE and it’s a beautiful thing.
What happens between my pcs/Pre-OTs and their views of life’s causes and effects is what I audit for. Auditing is an activity that makes me feel useful, creative and in return I feel auditing tech is just amazing. Now of course that’s only a view of mine which is influenced by extensive study and application of auditing tech. THere are those who will disregard all expertise and invalidate the judgement that comes from decades of study and practice and further seek to judge ME because I have no questions whatsoever about whether or not auditing works. Like I’m the kook! A kook would be someone who has seen what I’ve seen as an auditor and CS and turn around and walk away from it – now that would be a kooky thing to do to me.
But the biggest point here is not I’m right they’re wrong it really isn’t about that at all but it’s bigger than that. It’s about it doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks in life – it’s about what we do, how we impact the world, are we helping anyone, is our life valuable to others. I think one of the obstacles I overcame with training and auditing (giving and receiving) is that 1. I am happy being me because I started out being not happy being me I was failing myself and knew it but didn’t know what to do about it. It’s has been a great trip seeing or not seeing what the reasons were for that all the while feeling the walls coming down and the phoenix rising.
Today I’d say that the peace in my heart for the vast and varying attitudes and opinions in this world is stable and strong because of what wisdom I’ve gained so far in life that intimately involved training and auditing. I feel like I live as opposed to feeling like I can stand walls around me. I went down the rabbit hole but where the kool-aiders and such differ from me is that I never wanted to be Neo. I just wanted to be me. Me without the feelings of sadness or failure or want or acceptance. Just me.
Auditing is doubtfully the only way to achieve the objectives I have through it’s use. I differ from the koolaiders in that I don’t think that earth is the only intelligent life in the universe so to speak. I in fact don’t doubt at all that there are other ways to get to this similar place. I personally found auditing tech and an emeter and once I saw what that did I was off and running chasing the effects I saw it create too busy doing to stop and ask myself if I should put this down now and go see if there was something else. That never occurred to me much like I think it wouldn’t occur to an athlete who was winning her races to change her techniques if winning races was the objective.
Sorry for the long response, I doubt anyone will even get this far and if so don’t blame you! Whew!!! But at the end of the day auditing has value, you know it, I know it so what does it matter what others think. Just audit.
Hi Gayle,Good to meet you. I think I get what you are saying and you do make a valid points and points about how you feel auditing and The Tech has helped you and those you want to help.In my case all the months of sec checking,lists,I am PTS DB Evil Intentioned totally screwed me up regarding auditing.So I have a viewpoint that is unique to what happened to me!That is why if I even picture those old juice cans my fist response is Total Cold Fear.After all these long long years too.Does that make any sense to you? Always Ann.
Hi Gayle, that’s a lovely and relevant comment you posted in my opinion. I’m one of those people who say Ron Hubbard was mostly full of baloney not because he was an ornery bastard but because most everything he said is demonstrably false or doesn’t make logical sense. His theory is unsophisticated and full of huge holes which is why he wasn’t and isn’t taken seriously by scientifically minded people.
Although his theory doesn’t pass philosophical muster, in practice, the results are quite impressive. This is due to his employment of preexisting systems like tantric yoga (tr’s) abreactive therapy and the confessional. I believe it’s his use of the meter which magnifies the efficacy of those practices and puts him on the map as a great innovator. He spent a lot of time developing his ‘auditing’ methodology and came up with some stuff that worked and dropped a bunch of stuff that didn’t work.
By no means do I think his methodology is the only one possible or even the most effective one possible. (Clinical trials would shine some light on that.) I’d love to see somebody like you for instance expand on the current auditing model and make it your own. The notion that it must be done ‘standardly’ and NEVER be altered is a notion that needs to be challenged by smart people. I have great respect for trained auditors and even a bit of envy. I think there’s a future for that skill.
“I don’t remember ever reading about Scientology stating you won’t overcome bodily death.”
PETER : You are missing the point here. I am not talking about overcoming body death, I am talking about LRH’s own claims of what the Tech can do to slow body deterioration and prevent illnesses. What part of he had chronic pancreatitis even decades before he died didn’t you understand ? How did DNs, NOTs, the Ls RDs, Super Power, OT VIII, old IV-VII, and all his alleged research (which means he DID THEM) into 15 levels beyong old VII helped him slow body deterioration and avoid illenesses ? He was LRH, for Christ sakes, and only 74 , an age where most USA past presidents are still fully operational and healthy. And with a lot more stress than LRH.
“LRH ran all of his research on himself, this of course meant he would have run 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of Dianteics when he was above Clear.
That would have taken its toll on any ones body.”
Peter : If that were the case, why didn’t he got himself repaired by competent auditors such as Mitoff and others LRH traned class XIIs ? Acoording to “Standard Tech, that is very easily reapaired. And you are assuming that he was right about the “no DNs above Clear” statement. They were hundreds of cases who received DNs (Standard DNs) after Clearand even after and at OT III. Many of them experienced no adverse effects ALL ALL. How come somone with such an allegedly clean case , received such adverse reactions ? He came to Mayo when he became very sick , and Mayo repaired his NOTs case under LRH’s intructions. Your explanation doesn’t hold any ground, I am afraid.
“The proof you seek may be in that missed read of yours.”
Peter : No ; LRH would have known how to repair that on himslef when he ran NOTs (2,000 hours of it) on himself. For Christ sakes, he invented the remedy for all that can go wrong when wrongly running DNs on our own cases, or on any BT or cluster cases. Why do you think that he would fail to reapair that on himself ? That doesn’t make any sense at all, I am afraid.
“You demonsrate an awful lot of BPC and uposet with LRH and the Technology itself.”
Peter : Please, do not confuse having a free mind and a methodical approach towards knowledge with being BPCed. This is typical MS2 comments. Are you MS2?
“Strange complaint from a Tech trained person who you claim to be?”
Peter : Only from the perspective of a strict adherent to KSW. I am a realistic applied philosopher, a free thinker, an honest researcher not your typical , fundamentalist KSW supporter, I am afraid.
“I have found over the last 35 years its usually the barely trained Admin SO types that demonstrate complains from a subject they could never grasp let alone apply.”
PETER : Really ? Wrong assumption buddy. Have you ever heard of “The Pilot” ? Of L kin ? Of CBR ?
And I have posted time and time again about my beliefs about the workability of Scn. I am sure you know about my views on that. I use Scn principles every day in my life. With me and others as well. Just w/out hypes, and strict dogmas, and KSW bullshit. That’s all.
“If its all so awful and so bad why bother to interest yourself in something that you have seemingly failed in or given up on?”
Peter : I have neither given up on it, nor have failed on it. That’s only your assumption. Gee, how you guys duplicate my comments so bad ? Do you really think that you can trick someone like me with words ? Come on, do not insult my intelligence.
“If you carry on like this you will end up like the OSA Trolls in here who post anti LRH rants intended for anyone thinking of leaving the Church to read and will probably then go back to the devil they know.”
Peter : Oh but I WILL carry out like this till you strict KSW adherents get the point. I will carry my meassage to places you have no any idea I can reach to. Thousands will read my works about LRH and Scn, and there is nothing you or any other Scientologist can do about it. You can try though, but is a lost battle.
I want you and others to freely practice your religion, but I won allow any hypes, lies, and violation of any Human Rights. And I will always be watchful about that. I want you all to succeed, but not at the expense of your own free will and freedom of thought. Not at the expense of the pains and suffering of others that Scn has ruined their lives. That won’t happen under my watch, rest assured. I am here to stay.
“I have read with interest Foolproofs posts and Mike’s replies which I have not always agreed with but do read the replies between them.”
“I notice that FoolProof is ALWAYS positive in his response and does not have snidey and snotty remarks dressed up as genuine comments.”
“That speaks of a Higher Tone level than the people who heap shit on him, LRH and Scientology.”
Peter : That’s typical Scientologist response. The fact is that VERY few of you can confront any criticism towards LRH and/or Scn no matter how friendly put, or the presented good argumets based on sensible judgement. I guess LRH has still an unsuspected power over most of you guys and gals.
“This blog was originally set up I assume to inform the public and ex-Scientogists of the current state of the C of S and its Leader.”
“The financial scams of the IAS and the lies they tell the membership.”
“I did not think the validity of the subject itself was the main purpose here and the special attention heaped on NED for OT’s.
”
“I thought the EXSCN was the place for all this lunacy and carping, failed wailing cases whinging on about LRH , the Tech, the Policy, how terrible it all is.”
Peter : This is a blog run by a moderaror whose understanding of Human Rights, and whose ability to respect freedom of speech and freedom of thought, is even bigger than mine ; and that says a lot. Is not every day that I can learn more humanitarian characteristics from anybody. And he has every right to expose lies, ANY lies, not just DM’s, cause Scn and LRH are also full of them.
“No body twisted my arm when I finished DMSMH in 1977 and visited my first Org to start Basic courses.”
“No one beat me up and made me leave and resign when I did.”
“No shame no blame no regrets.”
Peter : Same here.
“Not wishing to drone on but although the C of S is doing the wrong thing to its public at least in there they are positive about the future and Scientology.”
Peter : Weak argument. That doesn’t mean anything at all.
“Out here its all being sold as bad, fraudelent and unworkable Technology.”
A dwindling spiral if ever there was one!
There are some oustanding Auditors available and there are some criminal Auditors available.
You have to choose the good from the bad. Basic study of the subject should make this easy.
Its a case of do you follow the rants of the “its all bad, doesn’t work, LRH is a fraud yip yap yip yap”.
Or do you find a decent C/S get the problem handled and actually make some case gain.
Can we continue like this from here on out or until Mike gest fed up with it all and throws in the towel?
I hope he doesn’t.”
Peter : No ; it is a case of thinking for yourself, free from authoritarian approaches to knowledge, and free from the “LRH was right about everything he ever wrote about” enslaving idea. It is a case of freedom of thought free from suppressive attempts to impose our views on others. It is a case of respecting and supporting the Human Rights of others. That’s what this case is about. It isn’t about anything else. But I can’t ever expect a KSW supporter to ever understand that. I know, cause I was there myself.
Take care.
TC
Gayle. We’ve never met before. Though I’ve had the pleasure of seeing your posts from time to time.
My wife and I had left the ‘lurch of DMentology’, over 20 yrs back. She being a Class V from 1978. No longer practising.
As you clearly reminded readers here, the auditing tech just simply works, regardless of anyone’s “opinion.”
Beautifully articulated summary. You make true release from aberration, a reality. The simple, original mission of the auditor, as taught by the Ol’ man.
As for crimes? imperfections, o/w’s, warts, etc? They exist in us ALL, until we are prepared to look for/at them,. take responsibility for such, and thus unload the whole shooting match… As you said, maybe not to the exclusion of all else, but in the hands of thorough training, rigorously applied, — the tech works invariably — in the hands of a dedicated auditor.
Thank you for Being, Doing, and Having, the role.
— Calvin, Durban, South Africa.
TC he “Q&A’ed” with every one of your material questions. I have never conversed with a scn’er who doesn’t. It is impossible to honestly address those Qs without leaving scn forever. Some people don’t want to leave scn & El Con
Hi Gayle,
A nice reply, thank you. It is good to see there are still people actually using the Tech instead of destroying it.
But Evil Trolls are NOT trained in anything other than chaos management
You must judge people’ by their actions, and what type of language they use.
I see FoolProof always posting with a positive attitude, and someone who uses the Tech to advance himself and others.
However there seems to be a dedicated team of three people going quite nuts about his posts and keep trying to find inventive ways to put him the Tech and LRH down.
They always same the same thing in many ways, they go quite mad when anyone promotes the Tech or mentions LRH.
The OEC Volume 1 denotes a lot of information on people like this.
THe PTS/SP Detection and Handling course comes in handy for this
I do not understand their constant and never ending hostility and utter hatred of LRH and his discoveries, it has to be witholds.
But LRH did warn what happens when a PC gets a wrong item.
But as long as there are Auditors like you Gayle, and FoolProof real Scientology will survive outside of the C of $
regards
TruthTeller, may I suggest a time-honored method for silencing critics? That would be to prove them wrong through advancing a sound, cogent argument. This approach allows the truth to do all the work while you sit back with a smile on your face and a song in your heart!
Hi Roger Hornaday,Thank you for this post.Honestly I have a knot in my stomach over some people who cannot stand one tiny ounce of criticism against Ron or his Tech.I have given all the Indies and those that adore Ron,auditing ,and the Tech their space to be who they are.But they won’t listen to my story.I loved Ron fiercely you know that but if those who put me down for my SEa Org viewpoint had been through the Treatment I got,they would cry as I have this AM.I was not PTS to Ron and the Tech.I was betrayed and used as a lab rat literally.I’m with Mike about the flow of all comm but there are those that just want to keep twisting the knife in if I do not agree with them 100% and I do not even post them back to still feel the sting.Thank you I had to get this out and you were the star I wanted to tell.Love U Always Ann.
Dear Ann, I am here to back you up ; please, do not be concerned with Fundamentalists who have become deaf with their blind submission to “authority”.
These Fundamentalist KSW supporters are still under the insidious influence of Scn’s cult(ish) nature. They easily divorce from Reason ; they find the most logic, sensible, and backed-up with documented evidence, argument as a “bigotry”. They are slaves of strict dogmas. They are a menace to sanity, Free Will, Self-determinism, Freedom of Thought, and Human Rights. They fail to acknowledge the destructive parts od Scn, and fail as well , to feel any compasion for th hundreds of victims of LRH’s insidiously destructive policies like KSW #1 and “The Suppressive Acts” list.
I used to feel sorry for them till very recently, but not any longer. What should I care for individuals who lack compasion, kindness and respect towards the Human Rights of others ?
Even though that I have written time and time again about my many wins with Scn, and about how I think that Scn is highly workable if used free from the strict adherence of strict dogmas , they anyway resent ANY criticism from me about they beloved founder, no matter how sensible and logical the argument presented, and how friendly one goes about communicating it. Reason is an asset they do not have as regards to Scn.
Below is a comment I posted at the BIC SA blog like 1 1/2 years ago :
” These are some of the characteristics of a Fundamentalist Scientologist :
1. They think that the only possible truth in existence is contained only in LRH’s texts. No other philosophy has any value for them. No other great Leader has any value to amount to anything compared to LRH.
2. Anybody thinking differently from LRH is immediately labeled as a “squirrel” or at the least, as a “disaffected” Scientologist with one foot already in the “dark side”. Having a different opinion than any statements presented in any LRH issue, is immediately interpreted as M/Us being the cause , and/or “false data”.
3. People manifesting BPC with any part of the subject of Scietology or LRH (I don’t mean carping unfounded, biased criticism) are only “natterers” full of M/W/Hs . Scientology is infallible as well as its founder, they think.
4. They hold the ONLY route out in existence. Any other past or future roads are not to be looked at in any way, shape or form. Not to be even examined, not even read about. That’s “”mixing practices” and borders on the “squirrel”.
5. They form a special “clique” of people, separted from society to a large degree, living and working mosly among them , avoiding contagion from “the wog” .
6. They need a LRH ref for everything in their lives. They feel lost w/out it. They feel uncomfortable with creating knowledge. “What if we are wrong, what then ? ” , “We better stick to what is already written”.
7. If we disagree with the minutest part of the Tech , then they know we need to do a “Disagreement Check” to sort it out cause Tech is not to be questioned in any way. That would be “blasphemy” in itself as LRH is never, ever wrong about anything in any way, shape or form.
8. They feel greatly OUT-OF-ARC with the ones “who think differently” , with the ones who disagrees with anything about LRH and/or no matter how minute.
9. They feel no need with studying many subjects (writing , general Science ,electricity, Art, navegation, etc,etc,etc,etc) as LRH already covered them. So why even try it ? It is already written, isn’t it ?
10. Only the blogs that don’t mention anything wrong with Scn and LRH , not even if expressed with the correct manners and with valuable arguments, are to be considered “In-Tech” and as “Scientologists blogs”. The rest of them are “dark forces” blogs, or “dissenters blogs” , or “BPCed natterers”.
The above traits are shared by those that I call “Fundamentalist Scientologists”. But we also have what I call “Liberal Scientologists” who have already freed themselves of Scn’s cult(ish) nature, so they really don’t mind any criticism towards Scn and /or its founder as they are not naive and can easily recognize where LRH and Scn went wrong. I have many friends like that. They are many like that. The people at DROR Center, Israel, are that kind of “Liberal Scientologists”. They Freemans and the Warrens at Coer De’Alene, Idaho as that kind of individuals as well.
So please, feel free to comm all you want, dear Ann. I assure you that I won’t allow no fundamentalist asshole to mess with you.
With love always,
Peter
Hi Theta Clear- Dearest Peter,You have put a smile back on my face and a sparkle back in my eyes,as only you can.You helped greatly with your explanation re: Fundamentalist vs Liberal Scientologists. And I cannot tell you the strength I gather from your post.You shine so brightly and your work is so important.With you watching my back,I can sleep without a night light tonite after years of having one when I awake from those night terrors, as in locked in that morgue. With all the love I can send to you and yours.Always & Forever Ann.
Ann B. if any Ronbot says that what El Con and his goons inflicted on you was YOUR fault, you are dealing with a dangerous criminal who should be on a chain gang. Not running around free.
Hi John Locke, What you posted is exactly what happened to me.A certain person mean as a snake with danger eyes and a soft voice most of the time but very menacing,was running the whole show in Asho from his Intel viewpoint.And that is what he made sure I got.All that was done to me was 100% all my fault! Crazy sad and just plain bad.Always, Ann.
I am afraid that I have to agree with you on that, dear John ; those fundamentalists always Q&A when they feel cornered. If they were to correctly debate about it, not evading the Qs like politicians, they fear they would lose the fundations upon which their lives are based.
They have a very deep hidden fear that we might be right after all. Because then, what would they have left but loss and confusion ?
Not everybody has the confront that it takes to free themselves from Scn, even if they continue to use it from another more self-determined perspective.
For me the truth was bitterly painful, but I was up and optimistic about the future in less than a week. I was never the low-confront type.
TC
Mike
I loved getting that tidbit morsel of info, that bit on creating tech for himself, specifically.
It shows (as I interpret it) that LRH was in a sort of panic mode near the end of his life, and began to shift the purpose of the tech from general use to saving his own mind, a failed endeavour.
For me, this is a critical point, as in critically important support, when I say the tech does not work: this point that LRH died a total failure, in hiding from himself, or, for lack of a better term, mad.
Roger, I agree,
But do read FoolProofs articulate and well presented statements, and see they attacks heaped on him.
There are two kinds of of people:
1) those who use the Tech to better their lives and the lives of others
2) those who want to destroy it because they are beings who want a system of “no hope”, despair and confusion and we see enough of that crap in the World.
But then we must give these creeps the right to “free Speech” or we just not being fair or impartial according to some.
I have to admit it is becoming very boring having to keep reading this same utter crap every time I look in.
Its the same story every single day. Surely Mike must get fed up with it?
LRH is bad, he was a fraud, Scientology doesn’t work, etc ect, natter natter.
NOTS is unscientific, but Dark Matter is. Oh PLEASE SPARE ME!
I am ARC’broken cos Ron died “yip Yap,Yip Yap” Blah Blah Blah YAWN YAWN.
Its so boring having to put up with OAS Trolls puting up ridiculous comments and statements that when inspected are simply designed to put off anyone who reads this blog.
Any Churchie’s reading these Trolls posts will of course dive back into the Church.
So carefully worded posts dressed up as “logical Arguments” against the Tech or LRH are the tools used to keep people away from this blog.
So all I say to the Trolls is: You will NEVER stop the study and application of Standard Tech in the Independent Field.
Goodnight
There are two kinds of of people:
1) those who use the Tech to better their lives and the lives of others
2) those who want to destroy it because they are beings who want a system of “no hope”, despair and confusion and we see enough of that crap in the World.
TruthTeller, I don’t want to ignore your comment but what you’ve written above is demonstrably false and this is such a beautiful day. I genuinely love your earnestness.
Yeah, right … but did it give her breasts like Wonder Woman’s?
Hi Nickname, Now that would be something to see.An OT level that gives one perfect breasts and never any breast cancer because she takes massive amounts of vitamins,sits in saunas for hours and runs around polesYipee! Always Ann.
…and smokes enough. 🙂
Hi lynnfountaincampbell,Thank you ,how could I have forgotten Kools? Just looking at a cigarette pack now makes me ill, but for those still in,smoking might be the only gratification they get! I well remember a huge black & white pix of Ron sitting at a desk looking dreamily into the distance and those Kools were right there next to him.That one was at Asho.Always Ann.
Everyone who pays beaucoup to run around a glowing pole in the middle of a dark room already qualifies as being a giant tit, Coop.
Breasts, PERK, Wonder woman? Wait, what site am I on? Henry
Henry – In this Twilight Zone of life, you / we are on a site where “breasts” gets more replies than “OT VII exterior at will with perceptics is just a quick summary of the actual gains.” “Breasts” are a stable datum of life in a body. We do have life in a body, with an entire set of admin scales, all interrelated. They do interrelate upwards to life as eternal beings. It’s interesting speculation that we’re attracted to soft spherical shapes like breasts and asses, and thetans are themselves spherical and creative. A game, but the heart of it is the individual, and love. Harmonics and interrelationships, all are important, all integrate upwards to eternity. It’s eternity that’s a bit hard to confront, to determine admin scales (ethics) for.
Nickname, that is because breasts are something that is real while, “OT VII exterior at will with perceptics” is just a joke…
Ken Ogger – a late Indie, aka The Pilot – once said that in the 60s some jokers made up a magazine ad claiming that auditing could increase your bust size. This was before LRH declared J&D a high crime.
Finally, a question I’ve been keeping close to my breast.
I wonder if you do this Rundown before the Grades and if you do it again after NED and then again after OTV and again after OTVIII if you’d get even more and more and more and more… oh heck, I forgot where I was going with this.
There’s no need to go there, Ronn. We’ve already seen the result: Raffy Pendery, who did exactly what you said. And, Dear Flying Spaghetti Monster, who wants to be that?
“Dear flying spaghetti monster”, yeah I’m writin that one down. Henry
Henry James, I think I wrote you a reply, did you get it?
I wonder how the wins compare to the fantastic, universe changing wins one gets by cleaning and polishing the Freewinds.
Those are the ultimate. After all, being at sea (or dock) puts you in touch with the Sea Org and that is the most OT environment at all. Being cause is the very definition of OT. Being cause over MEST takes you to realms of awareness and states of being that have only been dreamed of in the dark ages past. It’s the ultimate. Especially if its done under the beady-eyed watch of Capt Horndog Napier, a true legend of OT abilities to get in the pants of the local opinion leaders and create safe ports for scientology.
that’s one way to describe the mesothelioma that the blue asbestos on the DeathWinds gives you 🙁 . And Captain David “he is NOT insane!” Miscavige is guaranteed to be involved in thh coverup – after all, his sister-in-law was directly involved in telling Lawrence Woodcraft that since Hubbard had not written about Blue Asbestos it was not dangerous. (Highlighting the danger of taking magical thinking too far 🙁 )
Hi Jens TINGLEFF, Don’t you just love the “magical thinking” as in smoking does not cause cancer,not smoking enough does” and if Ron did not write that blue dust was terrible for a body,the blue dust is as-ised and presto never fear about getting cancer later.Only DBs get that and they deserve it! When a SO slave got it years ago before she passed away I heard some higher-ups laughing that she had pulled it in.Well they would have had an awful time with me if I had been told that.Sorched Earth! I would have been that angry about it.Always enjoy your posts.Ann.
Yep, and the Fatman didn’t write about the internet either. That turned out to be worse for scientology than any asbestos!
Hi Scott Campbell, Loved your post,thank you.Not having had the distinct pleasure of cleaning and polishing and getting more blue dust on The Moneywinds,I can’t speak to that lovely experience.But for some many weeks I sure did on The Excalibur.We were dockside as her engine needed a large part that was taking forever to arrive.So to give us Product Zero slaves some sea time we would get in the zodiac boats be sent out into the harbor and told to abandon ship and swim back to the Excalibur. No kidding,I am surprised I did not get pollution problems but I was young very,and in love with all things Sea Org.Hello Ann? Not smart at the time.Always Ann.
Thanks Ann. Nuthin’ better than some good ‘ol fashioned MEST work to let you know how OT you are.
Hi Scott Campbell, Isn’t that the Truth! Really cleaning a bilge pump was one thing I never learned in college! What a blast and no hot water to get the grease off.Sailor’s showers only.Always Again, Ann.
Captain Horndog! No shit, right?
What I realized after the completion of each one of my OT levels is more or less what I read in the achievements listed in the letter by Barbara Dews. And in addition in the wins of those attending the new Survival RD in a Class V Org. Therefore I assume that the auditing project designed by LRH was the temporary increase of the ton level of the PC, just to permit the writing of a success story on the basis of the expectations of the PC and other wonderful wins due the state of mind caused by auditing. In reality a mere hypnotic state of mind.
Temporary euphoria.
I remember being in session (on the grades) and all of a sudden, it was like all this “mental mass” dropped off. I was euphoric for about an hour. And then it all went away. I’ve often wondered of the electrical current could be giving people those sensations. Or helping to…
Hi OSD, I hear you.In my case I zapped the electric current back to the scam meter and constantly blew out all the lights in the auditing rooms.That is why I did Grade 4 not at Asho but across the street and when the lights went there too well rumors may have started that I was evil intentioned…and the punishment for that was swift! Always Ann.
Hi Ann, it’s a wonder you weren’t burned at the stake. Another mere mortal fooling around with their electric bill, tsk tsk tsk. Henry
Hi Henry James,You have my number! Burned at the stake,thirty lashes on the loading dock,and I should have had to wc the word electricity for one billion years! I have had that ability all my life I can go in a store and tell when a cash register will malfunction and one does.Not so good got the scam meters,those cans can conduct it alright I sent the electricity to the wrong source.Should have zapped it to Ron!Love your posts.Always Ann.
Hi Henry James, I meant not good for the scam meters.Love,Ann.
I don’t doubt Sarah had all the gains she announced-It is a pretty amazing and simple RD.
She probably ran out all that she had to go through to get to OT VIII. Reg’s cycles gone, IAS crush regging blown, the mental torment accumulated from Sec Checks gone, exhaustion from the long and arduous road to OT gone as well.
Good for Sarah, she may very well have run out her entire Scientology track under the rule of David Miscavage.
“…It is amazing how much cognitive dissonance can be tolerated in a world where thinking for yourself is not merely frowned upon, it is stamped out with the threat of losing your family, friends and/or job. …”
So true and really down to the nitty gritty, isn’t it? Scientology….the “subject of total freedom” being used as a carrot by a totalitarian cult bent on breaking you free from your finances your life your family your alliances and your life. Utterly toxic and guaranteed to leave you ruined….. utterly. By the way, fuck you Barbara Dews.
Doug, you really need to stop holding yourself back. Must be all those withholds keeps you from getting your point across. Henry
No worries I just wrote myself up.
Ditto
+1!
It appears to me there is no need for all of the other stuff….just do the Cause Resurgence R/D and you have gone up the bridge. Sarah should work in a bakery…..she sure knows how to pour on all the good stuff.
I remember running cross country in school…..5 miles I think. I never had any of those wonderful
end phenomena. My only thoughts were….thank god that is over! I did become cause over my life at that point though…..I quit the cross country team.
Would it not be fun to ask a sheeple if Miscavige has done the Cause Resurgence R/D? Nothing be a deer in the headlights look I’m sure. Oh maybe they would say of course he has, he wouldn’t have us do something he has never done…..that is what makes him Sir!
The irony of Dave doing this RD after disfiguring it and using as a torture tool on others would be too rich to imagine.
Besides your hair gets all messed up and sweaty running, that’s not going to work for Dave
No amount of wind or sweat could impinge on that pompadour — it is a permanently lacquered magnificence unbowed by the elements
Mike, do you think COP will ever get a bust like Hubbard? Or a painting of him?
Just wondering……
Chairman of the Pompadour will only get that honor if he goes to jail or dies in some spectacular fashion. Lroon is the god, not the Dinky Miscreant.
So, Miscavige is such a Big Being, that even his hair is Cause, right, Mike?
He wouldn’t have to actually run – just order everybody else out and take a nap. They could have promoted it: personally trialed and approved by COB.
Seems like a missed opportunity.
They’re no longer just things I ‘can think with’ or ‘get the idea of’; they’re there, in the real world in 3D Technicolor,”
Technicolor, lol. How so very 1952 of her:)
That is the one service the cult provides to humanity. It separates wanna be gods from their resources.
FTW Sir Upticious!!!
The incredible thing is that any athlete will tell you the same thing after running a marathon. It’s WHY people do exercise. They are often not aware of the exact reason why, but ‘second wind’ is nothing more that coming into present time and probably also going slightly exterior. There is nothing mystical about the benefits of exercising. I have always exercised and got slightly annoyed when so many scientologists put down gymming as low toned or an obsession with the body. I have always found a gym very high toned and fun. Looks like DM learned that lesson – so why doesn’t he F Off and open a gym!
Right dr mac and I agree that phisical exercise makes such a result, because it brings about in the body the production of the serotonin, known also as the hormone of the good mode.
+1! The gym I’m with now, I’ve been with for 33 years. It’s the fifth gym I’ve been with since I was 18. We have an inside track where members can walk, run and do lunges. I’m thinking of selling them shorts and T-shirts and telling them it’s now a magical track that will give them super powers.
But, seriously, when I’m dead tired and force myself to go to the gym, I come out with a ton of energy I didn’t have before. Hey! Maybe I should write a “Success Story” and send it in to the L.A. Org! Maybe they’ll want me as a speaker! While speaking about my “wins,” I’ll causally say: “Wow!!! I just popped out of my body!!!” And then watch the pandemonium take place….
First of all, Mike, that header is hilarious.
Bubbledwellers who have never done OT VIII will realize that the reason they don’t get these kinds of wins on the Cause Resurgence Rundown is because they are NOT OT VIII or because they are not something else. Bubbledweller Sarah Lake is able to get these kinds of wins on this Rundown because she HAS done OT VIII and it peeled off the shit that was in her way that prevented her from experiencing the full force of OT VIII.
If there are other Bubbledwellers that did not get these kinds of wins on the Cause Resurgence Rundown and they ARE OT VIII, then it’s because they are missing Super Power or need some FPRD list or sec check or something and they know it.
I would like to ask Sarah if she has ever hit states of euphoria because of endorphin rush released during/after exercise. I have or maybe those rushes were because I jettisoned Whole Track ridges.
🙂
excellent post McCarran, refreshing,
I just felt the rush as the Ciante went down!
Wait…..what? You’re having Ciante (one of my favorites) and I’m not? Sucks to be me…
Now that is something to think about. The more you run the more those pesky ridges bounce around. I’m sure there is some secret data that sheeple won’t understand that talks about these bouncing ridges. The pole has some sort of magnetic pull designed to loosen ridges. As you run around that magnetic pole, the ridges knock around each other as they try to get to the pole. Pictures on these ridges get commingled causing weird thoughts like you feel good. Then all of sudden those damn things start falling off creating all sorts of thoughts and ideas that are finally your own…..you are now at cause.
+100 Mary! 🙂
“If there are other Bubbledwellers that did not get these kinds of wins on the Cause Resurgence Rundown and they ARE OT VIII, then it’s because they are missing Super Power or need some FPRD list or sec check or something ……..”
…..or maybe they are being held back by a reluctant Too Dee that doesn’t want to donate as much, you know the type …. the Small Beans of the MEST universe.
Yo Dave,
I say ‘Lose the Bastards – NOW!’ What’s your take Mr. Shit for Brains?
One more thing good buddy ……don’t forget to check out the Emmy’s!
Dave,
Is Tom C. making preparations to be a presenter at Oscars in the Dolby Theater this year?
Good comment Mary! Even before I found Scn I got the runner’s high with all those lovely endorphins when running long distance and training. I went ext on runs and skiing without ever having heard of Scn. In fact my buddy calls snow skiing, “the cheap exteriorization.”
Sign me up for some that pole-running shit!
After hearing about those wins I immediately began running around in circles. What a great feeling!
🙂 🙂 🙂
Hilarious! Oh the Mental Image Picture I have of you, Coop. I continue to laugh.
Oh yeah, Coop? I was also running around in circles while my body was on Venus! Dangerous place, Venus. I also almost got run over by a freight train. But the wins I got were beyond anything I’ve ever experienced! I’m going to leave my body and come up to your place….
Hey Coop! Did you catch your tail when you ran in circles?
I got real close so I just kept at it until OSD showed up and said
“What the fuck are you doin?”
I was dumbstruck so I wrote a success story! You know … the usual!
Hi Mike,I can’t help it,I have to say to Barbara- As you head to the stars honey,just keep on going! Always Ann B.Went to Tony’s the video is really interesting.Thank you.
ALL major claims (those were the OBJECTIVE claims that drove $ and people up the bridge) El Con made for scn were false. ALL claims of his personal “OT abilities” were intentional lies told to obtain wealth and power.
It is hilarious how Indies fall back to a position of subjective wins when El Con admonished that scn was NOT just another “feel good” therapy but existed ONLY to rehabilitate people to their native, uber God abilities. That is the only reason for the bridge. Saying it is isn’t is a suppressive act and is squirrel per EL Con.
IAS dono’s, Ideal orgs and the like are SOLELY driven by the above LIES of El Con. Without the brainwashed believing those lies DM has no power. No family disconnection, ET AL!
Those who continue to propagate those lies and are harming people. But, as there are only a few thousand people (inside & outside the church) who still worship the sociopath the damage is now limited.
I thing we at least have the pathogen identified and contained. Now we just need to do 7 – 8 – 9 – and 10!
Yo Dave,
Howz what’s left of it hangin good buddy?
LOL!
I don’t know, John. I mean, Sarah said, “This has been the wildest rocket ride & the power of it can create cannot be underestimated.” John, buddy, I really have to agree with Sarah! My wife and I were at Disneyland yesterday and both us rode the Rocket Ride She being a never in didn’t quite get the wins that I did, but, it did make her happy. For me, raising and lowering my rocket ship was simply mind blowing! First off, I realized I was ACTUALLY IN DISNEYLAND! Then when I was controlling my rocket, I realized that I could actually CONTROL my rocket! I’m pretty sure I can make my rocket actually fly! As I went round and round, I realized I was GOING IN A CIRCLE! (just like Cause Resurgence!). The wins came fast and furious. One after the other. I’m not even going to get into my wins on Autopia! You all would just laugh at me.
I did have a little bit of trouble understanding her English, but, I think I got the jest of it….
John, I may be simplistic but I think being enamored of scientology falls under the category of: Fascinated By Shiny Objects.
Hi Roger Hornaday, Not simplistic at all profound.XO Ann.
I think so Roger
Yes, it is categorical hypnotism, Hubbard’s true fascination.
Does anyone know how many active Scientologists there are? John’s comment piqued my curiosity.
P.S. Hi Ann!
I only know of one for sure. Unfortunately it is my daughter who is in the See Ogre.
Hi Newcomer, Thank you for mentioning your daughter in SO.I really empathize with you.I could never have kids this time medical stuff,but my heart would smash into little pieces if I had any still in SO and they had disconnected from me.You are very brave.Love,Ann.
Hi Good People, Thank you a great big hello back to you! I always like your posts.It would be nice to postulate only one scientologist left on the planet and his name is David.Unfortunately he probably would still consider himself a god!,albeit a very rich one,with no soul.Always Ann.
Those who are in and active or those who are UTR and NOT active?
Good People, my best guess would be between 25,000 and 30,000 worldwide. That includes staff and SO.
Sarah Lake? Sarah “find out who my husband really is” Lake? That’s rich. She KNOWS she’s being scammed – and her brother Thomas certainly does. Her Mum Liz probably does too. I guess deep down they all do. I did – just couldn’t deal with the fact.