Let’s begin with a fundamental: because two things are connected does not mean one is causative.
When it rains, umbrellas appear that are otherwise not seen. A fool might conclude that umbrellas cause rain.
When someone is mentally deranged enough to murder children in a school, it is more likely than not that they have been in the hands of the mental health system at some point. After all, scientology does not deal with the insane, despite Hubbard claiming that through his discoveries “the last need for psychiatry is gone.” Insane people are turned away from scientology.
It is also likely that an extremely troubled person is going to be put on drugs. It is not a rational conclusion that the drugs caused the violence — though of course there are instances where this might be true. Some drugs could cause violent outbursts or suicide. But this is not the CCHR pitch. They assert with total certainty that it is drugs that CAUSE violence.
Few would argue that there is not a problem with over-prescription and overuse of drugs in the US.
But CCHR wants you to believe that you should give them your money so they can eradicate ALL psychiatric drugs. I can almost certainly predict that the end results would be MORE violent crime. Many people DO improve with drugs. It is simply an incontrovertible fact. And certainly, leaving people with NO treatment (because scientology will certainly not step in to treat the insane if they manage to get all drugs banned) is not a better idea.
But don’t tell that to CCHR. Just send them your money:
Extremely well written post, Mike.
I believe LRH’s war on psychiatry was not entirely due to his concern for people suffering a psychotic break and getting electric shock treatment. He never allowed these people in Scientology and he NEVER shed a tear for these psychotic break “victims”. Instead, he was on a quest to get money for helping people with their mental problems and getting money for helping these “nutty” people only came via government programs that also required no lying and real, truthful medical research, neither of which LRH was wont to do.
I believe his war with psychiatry was born with his early, and well founded concern over getting captured and committed himself! Don’t laugh. His actions like the abhorrent kidnapping of his first infant daughter to Cuba and threatening to chop-up the baby to drive the mother over the edge is pure LRH. And, it is why HE thought his actions might cause “the men in white coats” (in 1940’s, 50’s and 60’s) to chase him down and commit him. LRH knew he was not nuts, but he also knew he lied so much in his life about things like chopping up a baby or discovering a gold in his back yard or a cure for all man’s ills, that these actions would put him at serious risk of being committed.
So, besides avoiding the law for taking money for curing ailments and practicing medicine without a license, he also knew he had to avoid the men in white coats.
I love what you have said here. It rings true. And having all his crazy things in one concise comment is powerful.
An excellent thought-provoking article today.
Okay, CCHR was founded in 1969 by a psychiatrist and LRH to combat the psychiatric profession. How come psychiatry is bigger now 49 years later when the purpose of CCHR is to eradicate it? Just go to one of those stupid org events and listen to the little dwarf crow about how they’re jailing psychs by the hundreds!
Factually, the CCHR was founded by Jane Kember, GuardianWW, when she ordered it “founded” by the USGO, then located in the NY Org. It was in operation for several months prior to an anonymous request that the situation of a man, Victor Gyory, be investigated. He was a Hungarian refugee from the recent invasion of his country by the Soviet Union. [http://abuse.wikia.com/wiki/Victor_Gy%C5%91ry] He had been shock treated 49 times in a Pennsylvania psychiatric hospital and was slated for #50. The hospital claimed that Mr. Gyory could only communicate in gibberish. The USGO located a DC attorney, John Matonis, willing to take on the case and represent Mr. Gyory gratis. They also located Dr. Thomas Szasz, a noted psychiatrist who was totally opposed to the use of electro shock treatments and who actively campaigned against it. He was also an Hungarian who had migrated to the US years before.
In any case, I was present in the courtroom the day of the hearing. When the head doctor was in the witness chair, defending the hospital for using shock treatment due to the patient’s inability to communicate properly, I can still remember Mr. Matonis asking the witness, “Dr. XXXXX, Mr. Gyory is a Hungarian expatriate who speaks only Hungarian. How many of your staff speak Hungarian?” There was dead silence as the doctor looked down at his lap and said nothing. The judge turned slowly to the witness and said, “I direct you to answer the question.” The witness murmured, “None”. The judge thought a moment and then said, “I order Mr. Gyory released in the care of Mr. Matonis.” The next day it was done.
It turned out that in Hungary, Gyory has been a master gardener and the GO was able to get him a job at a major university in Philadelphia.
Just wanted to set the record straight. Dr. Szasz was a latecomer to the CCHR, not a founder. They altered that to make themselves look better.
Thanks for the clarification and, incidentally, that’s not the only thing they alter to look better.
Psychiatry is bigger, and Scientology is a backfiring hooptie* jerking down the road, belching smoke and hot air, a candidate for a tow to the junkyard.
*a car, especially an old or dilapidated one. – Google
Right and that’s my point. Little David likes to brag at those stupid events about how CCHR is eliminating psychiatry when all they do is stage a few protests which are either laughed at or ignored.
One reason psychiatry is bigger now is because LRH and Miscavige HELPED them get bigger.
They violated an ancient principle, the concept of which is “What you resist will persist”. There are many ways to express this but its the same concept.
Its the law of attraction; too much attention on something, whether you want it or don’t want it – guess what, you’re gonna get it.
That doesn’t mean you must ACCEPT what you don’t want or that you cave in, but rather that you (forgive the Scientologese) “out-create” what you don’t want; the preponderance of your attention and energy should be focused on what you DO want.
If Scientology had put its 80% of its focus on helping people, being very effective at HELPING people, and KEPT their focus on THAT and gotten REALLY GOOD at helping people while at the same time making people aware of psychiatry’s abuses (which definitely exist) then they would have “out-created” psychiatry.
But they didn’t do that! The cult did the OPPOSITE of that. They USED psychiatry as a way to grub for money.
ALL the cult’s attention went onto MONEY. And that’s what they got. But money is ALL they got.
And one of the major ways the cult got money was constant and continual attention on “the evils of psychiatry”. They were quite successful in getting their MEMBERS’ attention continually focused on it too.
So the cult didn’t help people much, and became very rich! They’re drowning in money in the middle of a parched, people-less desert.
Actually, not ALL of the cult’s attention went onto getting money. Whatever the correct percentages have been at any given time over the life of the cult to date, there has never been ENOUGH attention on and energy expended on actually helping people, which IS theoretically at least, the PURPOSE of Scientology.
Possibly Scientology started out with help as a real purpose – that’s possible – but at some point it morphed into just another money making scam which which betrays and defrauds in the NAME of help, and operates within the boundaries of the laws of the land while doing so.
Agree on all counts, Aqua, and I am familiar with the Law Of Attraction (I’ve read ‘The Secret’). I compliment Mother Teresa when she said ” I will never attend an anti war rally. If you hold a peace rally, let me know”. She got it! I’ve seen the effects of applying the Law Of Attraction in many areas of life.
I like you, Aqua! You can be so open minded, even toward people like me who, despite disagreeing on a lot of the CofS practices, has had wins applying the tech.
Thanks, Alcoboy. I like you too 🙂
And fyi, I had many wins with the tech. It helped me a lot and still does.
But I can’t be part of an organization that is doing what this organization is doing. There are toxic policies being applied which I can’t pretend not to know about. Peoples’ lives are being totally fucked with. People are being made extremely unhappy in a cruel, conscienceless way.
It didn’t happen to me but it could have!
. I lost respect. I lost ALL trust. Finis. Seeya!
I couldn’t pretend to not know what I knew, not see what I clearly saw!
Frankly, I don’t know how anyone can be OK with pretending,, on and on, year after year, decade after decade, about things that are fundamentally important.
I don’t know how they do it. I’d get sick if I had to live that way!
Thanks, Aqua, and agreed on all counts!
When I returned from Vietnam in 1969 injured, I had such bad PTSD that I slept with a knife under my pillow . Nobody in my family would awake me as sometimes I woke back in country. If it were not for my psychologist and the medication and counseling I received I don’t think I would have lived this long. I am off psych medications for years now, and although still have nights of PTSD, especially around 4th of July , I have lived a productive crime free life. I owe my life to their help.
Thank you, David, for both your service and your honesty. My brother has been through the very same situation and come out the other side.
The part of that CCHR ad that bothered me the most is that the contributions are “tax deductible”. It kills me that all Americans are indirectly forced to support this scam due to their successful religious exemption!
Thank you so much for highlighting this. I work for an organization that helps people dealing with mental illness. All the lies going around make me feel like I am watching a 2018 version of “Reefer Madness”. I have seen many people turn their lives around with medications… but that isn’t the single answer. Our main goal is to work with the person in front of us and helping them in anyway that we can. Sometimes medications are not needed. But all need help in cleaning up where they are. They also need hope that their lives really can have meaning and unlearn many of the lies that they have concluded about who they are.
I would imagine that the very small percentage that these ads speak of are people that were given a 5 to 10 minute interview by a Dr, put on some drugs, and sent on their merry way.
We must look at the whole person, and when we do that, I have seen miracles happen.
If Scientology does not lead with the insane, as directed by the Founder and his scriptures, what is Miscavige doing there?
“PUT PEOPLE OVER PROFIT. TAKE ACTION AGAINST ABUSE”
Seems they can’t take their own advice. Do as they say, not as they do? Hypocrites
When asked by the sea org uniformed person (ASHO mid 70’s) to get ‘on board’ with CCHR I countered that: You want to abolish Psychiatry totally and yet you are not willing to take on the insane and disturbed people that would not get any relief from any other quarter. OH! yeah, you say you could but you don’t, and from what I’ve seen as a class 4, is that you can’t handle them. I think not.
I left the conversation when he started up on my needing an attitude adjustment.
Yo Dave,
I don’t think there is much wrong with you that a couple of good knuckle sandwiches wouldn’t cure.
Jim:
“When asked by the sea org uniformed person (ASHO mid 70’s) …”
You spelled uninformed incorrectly :o)
Peabody,
You’re right. It should have been ‘uninformed uniformed person’.
Jim, these pathetic excuses for communicators can’t even handle a conversation with someone “not in good standing” with their cult, let alone a person with a mental illness! Its the joke of all time.
Jim, you DID need an attitude adjustment…and now you’re OUT! LOL Well done, laddy!
I’m reminded of a disturbing conversation I had with an SO member at FLAG. I do not know if it is true, but if anyone could shed light on it, I’d very much like to know.
I was in a briefing to reg me for some meager funds. I was near the back so I could sneak out early, but no such luck, SO all around the room, so I hunkered down.
In the one on one after the event, this SO guy told me that a Scientologist had been going to Washington and talking with various politicos about the idea that the government was wasting millions, (billions?) of dollars on sanitariums (?) institutions (?) for mentally ill people. That they were being drugged and experimented on and dying at higher than the national average and the psychs were making a ton of money and doing terrible things to the patients. And that the politicians could save a ton of money closing these places down. And it caused them to close them down. And what a big win it was for the cherch.
I asked, who will treat those people now? He looked at me. Subtext of his look, “you poor stupid child, do you not get the enormity of this win?” I repeated myself and he left and I bolted.
Did the cherch help get the institutions closed? It was the birth of the huge homeless problem we have.
I’m curious.
A lot of effort,, pushing the cchr agenda towards members of the nation of Islam,they really are perfect candidates/bedfellows, Tony Muhammad Vaxxed kick was/Is a CCHR venture.
The NOI claims Estrogen is put in Canned goods,Bottled water, and yes Soy Sauce,and Marijuana,and is the cause of Homosexuality in Men.
People like Rizza Islam (Youth Ambasador CCHR) Fredrick Shaw jr runs the Industry of Death exhibit in LA for the CCHR,along with Alfreddie Johnson target the NOI with the CCHR message.
Its not had when the NOI has been conspiracy centered in that direction since its inception.
the cracks are forming: Malik Zulu Shabazz a lawyer and former New Black Panther Party spokesman
had this to say
this was posted to Scientology Invasion of the Black Community
https://scontent.ford1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/30705589_10156156540501181_4784390744227739153_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=13394d5cf608ad0b278b6c973d481b00&oe=5B299553
splits with Louis Farrakhan on Scientology and Mental Health and had a whole lot more on his April 6th 11:31 am Facebook post
https://whyweprotest.net/attachments/a4719aac-dbe6-441c-9ad8-a57a7c3f4e18-png.267680/
more here:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/threads/members-of-the-nation-of-islam-are-practicing-the-religion-of-scientology.43362/page-18
Yes, this is scamology as its sleaziest worst. Good thoughtful article Mike, it’s not easy to delineate the tactics and the broad generalities used by Hubbard’s ridiculous claims (hence adhered to by his followers) in this broad “merchant of chaos” approach to all things psychiatric, and the use of drugs.
Being logical and sane about the observance of the different forms of medical applications is something beyond the scope of a Scientologist to grasp. The “greatest good” in the mindset of Scientology is nothing more than a selfish, know best, money grab. There are few things as heartbreaking as seeing Scientologists care for themselves, or their advice for others.
The ONLY fact we know is that all mass civil shootings of this “genre” have been carried out by a person (almost all young male) who have a track record of certain types of street or prescription mind altering drugs. BEFORE the prevalent usage of these types of drugs there were ZERO shootings of these types. The 1960’s Texas college tower shooter being the first.
Undoubtedly there is very small % of mentally deranged people who react in this manner to those drugs.
The LIE is that it is “psych” drugs. The first shootings were NOT involved with prescription drugs and those that are only a certain type of drug is involved. NOT all prescription mind altering drugs.
Hi Mr. W. Psychiatric Drugs Create Violence and Suicide’? Violence (Cain and Abel?) and Suicide have been around a lot longer than Psychiatric drugs. I agree that when you’re working on an at risk group, not everyone can be helped. As Mike said, that doesnt mean the meds caused the violence or suicide.
Go back further, Mr. W. 1960 was not the first, and not all young men using drugs. A few examples from wikipedia:
‘*Historical event Edit
On August 13, 1903, 30-year-old Gilbert Twigg, armed with a 12-gauge double-barrelled shotgun, opened fire at a concert, killing six people and wounding at least 25, before killing himself.[37][38] Three others died in hospitals afterward. The incident, while largely forgotten today, has been called “America’s first modern mass shooting” as many aspects were similar to more widely publicized and deadlier events in the late 20th and early 21st centuries.[39]’
*
‘The Bath School disaster, sometimes known as the Bath School massacre, was a series of violent attacks perpetrated by Andrew Kehoe on May 18, 1927, in Bath Township, Michigan, which killed 38 elementary schoolchildren and six adults and injured at least 58 other people.[Note 1] Kehoe killed his wife and firebombed his farm, then detonated an explosion in the Bath Consolidated School before committing suicide by detonating a final device in his truck.’
*
‘Absinthe’s popularity grew steadily through the 1840s, when absinthe was given to French troops as a malaria preventive…
In 1905, it was reported that Jean Lanfray, a Swiss farmer, murdered his family and attempted to take his own life after drinking absinthe. The fact that Lanfray was an alcoholic who had consumed considerable quantities of wine and brandy prior to drinking two glasses of absinthe was overlooked or ignored, therefore placing the blame for the murders solely on Absinthe.’
I won’t argue that some early medical and psychiatric practices weren’t awful. But, through the learning process, effective solutions to illness (physical and psychological) have allowed a LOT of people to live longer, productive lives.
Getting off Apple box. Going for coffee. Sorry for writing such a long post, Mike . I know I’m mostly preaching to the choir here. 🙂
dungeon master, FAIL for Straw Man.
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent’s argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be “attacking a straw man.”
Good Morning, Mr. W,
I apologise if I gave the impression I was attacking your position. My first statement was that i disagree with CCHRs statement that Psychiatric Drugs Create Violence & Suicide.
‘The ONLY fact we know is that all mass civil shootings of this “genre” have been carried out by a person (almost all young male) who have a track record of certain types of street or prescription mind altering drugs. BEFORE the prevalent usage of these types of drugs there were ZERO shootings of these types. The 1960’s Texas college tower shooter being the first.’ Emphasis mine.
I was disagreeing that this type of violence did not occur before 1960, and it did not necessarily involve someone who used drugs. You made a statement:
‘BEFORE the prevalent usage of these types of drugs there were ZERO shootings of these types.’ I wanted to point out that mass civil shootings occurred as early as 1903. And no indication of drug use.
I did use other examples of other mass killings. An angry man who bombed a school in my home state of michigan because he lost an election. 1927. No mention of drug use. I think people believe mass kilings are a relatively new phenomenon. I was surprised to find out they were not.
Yes, this and the 1905 incident where absinthe was involved, and ended up banned in the US for over 100 years. These are historically interesting to me, but not direct correlations to single (usually white) male shooters who have a track record of drug use.
So, again, my apologies for getting sidetracked to other historical tragedies and muddying the waters. I am easily distracted lol. Wish I could blame it on my age, but that would be a lie.
And thanks for giving me a sci-speak FAIL! i almost felt l was in the chair. Or, as a never-in, how I imagine it would feel..
Peace, Mr. Wynski
“And thanks for giving me a sci-speak FAIL!”
?? I used no “sci-speak”. I used formal logic.
Good Morning again. I’m starting to feel like everything I say ticks you off, and i regret that. I would like for things to be more friendly between us. I often see great insight in your posts.
The FAIL! remark reminded me of a video I watched of Jesse Prince and Stacy Young demonstrating TRs. But after thinking some more, i think the word they used was Flunk.
Someone once said, here or at Tony’s place ‘My mind is not so much a steel trap anymore as a lint trap in a dryer, collecting random bits of fluff.’ I told them i was going to use the remark, because it so neatly describes my brain these last 10 years or so. 🙂
Wynski, its interesting what you’ve said about how formerly it was ILLEGAL drugs that precipitated some people going insane. My friend had two sons, born 2 years apart. When they were 17 and 19 they hung out together once and smoked (ate?) what used to be called “psychedelic” mushrooms. I don’t know what they’re called today but they were halucinogens. Anyway, they both got high together on these mushrooms.
The older boy came down from it and was unaffected. The younger one possibly never came down from the high (or something) because shortly afterwards he became mental.
They took him to a psychiatric hospital and gave him various medications…he got worse. They changed his medications a number of times before they found some combination of stuff that would keep him calm. Then they released him. But he hated the medication because it doped him out so he didn’t take it. Long story of him back and forth to and from various hospitals with different medications. Within a year he was wawy beyond mental. He had turned into something frightening – a raging schizophrenic. I witnessed one of these episodes. He was growling..never mind, I don’t want to get into this aspect because, well, I just don’t.
It appears that some people’s body chemistries just cannot recover from powerful drugs, legal or illegal. That’s what it looks like, anyway.
Yes Aqua. A NOT unusual story unfortunately. Powerful drugs can damage a mind and should only be used in EXTREME cases and under VERY close clinical supervision.
Great article, Mike.
I’d love to know what solution the cult has in placer for containing mentally deranged people once they succeed in abolishing these evil drugs!
These drugs work but they have side effects which are disliked so people can stop taking them. Stopping taking them after having taken them can make them go completely insane.
So what does the cult advocate for those deemed to be or provenly dangerous to themselves and society? Straight jackets at all times? Shackling them in leg irons, chaining them to the walls as was done in Bedlam and other asylums back in the day? Would this be how the cult wants criminal psychotics handled?
And as far as these mass murderings of innocent people and children in schools, churches, concerts, clubs and shopping malls, how about monitoring these lunatics so they don’t go OFF their drugs, and, hey, how about not allowing them to get their potentially murderous mitts on assault weapons?
But WAIT! Wait. What was I thinking?
The former would cost money in the form of increased taxes. Can’t have that! Simply ensuring that you can go dancing without getting slaughtered and your kids don’t get their heads blown off in public school is just not enough reason to pay more taxes!
And then, ensuring that the mentally disturbed cannot be sold guns and assault rifles might annoy the NRA, as, after all, this is a violation off their 2nd Amendment Rights. And everyone knows that, if you take away ONE person’s 2nd Amendment Rights, it means the Leftie Libtards will consider it open season for taking EVERYBODY’S 2nd Amendments rights away. I mean, everybody knows that.
So, never mind! Bad, unworkable solutions! Best just not to do anything! Just keep the status quo.
We’ll just go on as before as the enlightened Americans we are, taking our chances when we go shopping or to a concert, or packing the kids off to school each morning. As for the latter, we can at least be proud thatour kids weren’t killed in the womb so its no big deal for them to take their chances once they hit kindergarten…and if we get our own heads blown off in the course of a normal day, well, most of us have lived full lives, after all.
Typo City as re this comment of mine. Was too emotional to do any editing.
I’d love to know what solution the cult has in placer for containing mentally deranged people once they succeed in abolishing these evil drugs!
LRH has an answer for this. The Introspection Rundown…
This is in fact the HCOB where he announces his “breakthrough” that means the last reason for psychiatry to exist is gone. (Be that as it may, he didn’t change any policy about treatment of the insane or illegal pc’s — talk’s cheap)
YUP, the good ol’ Introspection “RD” . Put an agitated person all alone in a room with nothing to occupy their mind(s) but what’s bothering them and let them stew. No human interaction, no support, no counseling. Yeah, that’ll work. they tried that in Philly, called it the Eastern State Penitentiary. Hardened criminals subjected to that “treatment” were supposed to reflect on their relation to God & become penitent (hence the place’s name). Instead, they uniformly lost their minds. Friends & I Went there a few years ago: Creepy scary place even when you know you’re going for dinner a short walk away once the tour’s done. NOT the place to go for Halloween.
Scientology has no business commenting on the treatment of mental illness. It doesn’t even know how to do the things normal ordinary people do naturally when a friend’s upset or down. Simply talking it out is verboten as that’s “talking about your case” outside of an expensive and ineffective “session”. IMO, if they offered just getting in a person’s “ruds”,they might have something useful. But NOOOOOO! Can’t do that!!! Too simple, too practical.
Jere,
Just so. The Quaker experiment gone wrong, 1860’s. Solitary confinement 24/7 makes one crazy! Too bad Hubbard never did basic research and/or scientific investigation to base his ‘bright ideas’. The EGO was strong in that one.
Ah, yes! The Introspection Rundown. Of course, Mike. That handling that worked so well for a girl named Lisa…
I could share here about what I observed in my friend’s son who became schizophrenic at age 17. It was like he literally had a demon inside him. His face would change, his voice would become not his own – quite frightening and I don’t scare easily. But I was very afraid of this thing that this boy could turn into after not taking his medication: his rage, for lack of a better term for an awful hate that poured out of him, this lboy whom I’d known since he was a child of 8, He turned into a highly dangerous creature. You all here might think I’m being horrible and not showing compassion but if you observed this yourself you’d understand that in the olden days he would have spent his entire life in chains, shackled to the walls in an asylum while he roared out all kinds of vicious gibberish…yes, gothic, like that. Like a gothic novel. Again, his was a very extreme case of schizophrenia but people like this do exist and they definitely have to be medicated and monitored continually.
And Scientology is going to give someone like him an Int Rundown? No words.
Bullshit comment:
“And then, ensuring that the mentally disturbed cannot be sold guns and assault rifles might annoy the NRA, as, after all, this is a violation off their 2nd Amendment Rights. And everyone knows that, if you take away ONE person’s 2nd Amendment Rights, it means the Leftie Libtards will consider it open season for taking EVERYBODY’S 2nd Amendments rights away. I mean, everybody knows that.”
It’s against Federal law for “mentally disturbed” people to own firearms and/or ammo. The NRA supports this law. There is no such thing as 2nd amendment rights. As a matter of fact, there is no such thing as Constitutional rights either. There are many restrictions on firearm ownership. Oh yea, wtf is an assault rifle? You should read up on things before you post and display your ignorance.
Ok, you’re right, Peabody. I am ignorant about guns.. By “assault rifle” I was referring to a firearm that operates like a machine gun – ? Know what I mean? Semi-automatic weapon, maybe, is the correct term. But what I want to know is, obviously you agree that guns should not be in the hands of the mentally ill, so why are you so upset by what I wrote? And if gun ownership for the mentally disturbed is against the law, are you implying that the laws are not being properly enforced and that more oversite is necessary? Please teach me what your solution would be for preventing random mass murders.
Aqua, an assault rifle is an automatic weapon (pull trigger and it fires until to release the trifgger). I have one. You cannot buy one without a special Federal license. The weapons sell for about $8,000+ nowadays. The weapons used in the last two mass shootings were LESS deadly than my hunting rifle.
The two largest mass school shootings took place in a country with just about a total gun ban. Mexico has VERY strict gun laws. Its gun murder rate is many times higher than in the USA.
Banning and making illegal does NOTHING. The UK basically banned guns. Its murder rate has CLIMBED (murder is illegal BTW) If you want more examples of banning not working but in fact the reverse, see drug laws.
Wynski, thank you for the detailed clarification. I understand all you’ve said. In turn, please understand that I’m not wedded to any particular solution to these random, horrifying, senseless slaughters that have been occurring with increasing frequency over the past 10 years. I’m not a gun person myself but I honestly could not care less if each of us in this entire country were packing provided each of us were thoroughly and responsibly trained in the handling of firearms and that they were never used as a substitute for VERBAL communication!
I emphasize the word “verbal” when it comes to communication because, make no mistake, an angry person saying NOTHING to anyone about what’s bothering him or her, or possibly not getting across to the right people that something is seriously bothering him or her, and then at some point going out and spraying strangers with bullets – this IS a communication! A statement IS being made by such a person!
Anyway, the point being, ensuring that firearms are kept OUT of the hands of such people is a solution. I believe it to be a viable one. Now, having said that, HOW this is done, the way that this can be achieved and stably implemented to protect innocent people – again, I don’t really care. If this country banned all guns for everyone I personally would not care but I KNOW this would never work for all Americans, so it seems that SOMETHING has to be worked out and agreed upon that all sane Americans can accept because I also KNOW that many gun owners are HORRIFIED at these tragedies possibly even MORE than those of us who DON’T own guns, because the vast majority of gun owners are KNOWLEDGEABLE and RESPONSIBLE and SANE people who would not dream of mis-using their firearms in any way, and much desire a solution that, understandably, does not infringe upon their rights as responsible gun owners.
“horrifying, senseless slaughters that have been occurring with increasing frequency over the past 10 years.”
Aqua, Not true. Homicide rates in the USA are now HALF of what they were in the 70’s (with MANY more guns in circulation). Also, school murders are down since the 90’s. However, there is MUCH fake news about them being high.
https://mises.org/wire/there-are-fewer-school-shootings-now-during-1990s
Ok, I did it again. I said that wrong. I didn’t mean homicide rates per se. What I was referring to were MASS shootings. Surprise attacks, mass murders of people gathered together somewhere – school, concert, church, niteclub – by one lone, deranged gunman. That type of incident, was what I meant.
Aqua, MASS shootings by decade:
80’s = 32, 90’s = 42, 00’s = 28, ’10 – present= 14
It is overall DOWN TRENDING for mass shootings. Fake news makes it seem like it is increasing over time…
Do you have more recent figures?
I note this page matches the numbers you quote: https://www.globalresearch.ca/mass-shootings-in-america-a-historical-review/5355990
but the 14 is not to 2010-present, it is 2010-2013.
Wynski, OK, that’s good news, if, as you cite with these figures the incidences of mass shootings are actually decreasing and not increasing, and that they seem to be increasing is only an apparency created by the media.
I’m not going to get into some long-winded discussion about what you wrote.
However, I would suggest you educate yourself on whatever topic you think is important enough to talk or write about. Use good sources.
People clamor for more gun control without a clue what gun laws are already on the books. If you were a gun owner, you would already know that.
If you want to know more about firearms go to ATF
Firearms – Guides – Importation & Verification of Firearms – National Firearms Act Definitions – Machinegun
BTW: All of Congress could not come up with a clear definition for “assault” rifle, so forget about that.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-national-firearms-act-definitions-0
For gun laws
FLORIDA FIREARMS – Law, Use & Ownership by Jon H. Gutmacher, Updated free on the web on new laws, ISBN 978-0-9641958-9-9 The book is generally applicable in all states.
https://www.floridafirearmslaw.com/
There are many reasons why guns get in the wrong hands. The most appalling to me was Fast and Furious which was a pet project Eric Holder. Holder, the Attorney General of the United States, authorized the straw purchase of guns in Arizona (straw purchases of guns is illegal). His plan was to follow the guns into the hands of the cartels in Mexico. Guess what happened. He fucking lost track of them and people died. What an example he set for law enforcement.
Another suggestion is to learn about the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, Vattel’s Law of Nations which the Framers used as a reference, and the Federalist Papers. Do not use court cases for they are usurpations.
You can learn a lot here. A good starting point is:
Understanding the Constitution
BASIC CONCEPTS OF “GOVERNMENT”
https://publiushuldah.wordpress.com/category/definitions-and-basic-concepts/
I was taught about such things when I was in high school. Is it done today? Nope.
If you want to learn more about crime statistics, use the FBI. Just Google it.
Good luck in your pursuit for more knowledge.
“…I would suggest you educate yourself on whatever topic you think is important enough to talk about or write about. Use good sources.”
Point taken. I am not at all educated about guns, nor am I knowledgeable about gun laws.
I see now that what I wrote was suffused with emotion and sarcasm which communicated a great deal of make wrong with regard to gun ownership and the NRA, which was not helpful in that it clouded the ONLY point I really wanted to make: that somehow, someway, we as a nation must come together and agree on SOMETHING to prevent this sort of thing from happening. And that we should never get USED to this sort of thing happening.
The concept that we as a nation might be getting more and more used to this sort of thing, shrugging at it, accepting it as a part of life in America, etc.- this was what was fueling my sarcasm and gratuitously loaded language.
OK, enough excuses.
I admit I have no idea HOW we as a nation are going to agree on this issue. I don’t know. All I know is that we really, really SHOULD. Somehow.
No argument there. Before we go nuts by adding more gun control laws (which accomplish nothing) let’s fix what is broken.
Here’s what has been learned about the lunatic who shot up a school in Florida:
Sheriff Scott Israel said that his office received 23 calls about Cruz during the previous decade, but this figure is in dispute. A sheriff’s office log, which showed that from 2008 to 2017, at least 45 calls were made in reference to Cruz, his brother, or the family home. The calls included an anonymous tip on February 5, 2016, that Cruz had threatened to shoot up the school, and a tip on November 30, 2017, that he might be a “school shooter in the making” and that he collected knives and guns. On September 23, 2016, a peer counselor notified the school resource officer of his suicide attempt and intent to buy a gun; the school indicated it would do a “threat assessment”.
In September 2016, three people—a sheriff’s deputy who worked as a resource officer at Stoneman Douglas, and two of the school’s counselors—stated that Cruz should be committed for mental evaluation.
On September 24, 2017, a person with the username “nikolas cruz” posted a comment to a YouTube video. It read, “I’m going to be a professional school shooter”. The video’s uploader reported the comment to the FBI. According to agent Robert Lasky, the agency conducted database reviews but was unable to track down the individual who made the threatening comment.
On January 5, 2018, the FBI’s Public Access Line received a tip from a person who was close to Cruz. On February 16, two days after the shooting, the agency released a statement that detailed this information. According to the statement, “The caller provided information about Cruz’s gun ownership, desire to kill people, erratic behavior, and disturbing social media posts, as well as the potential of him conducting a school shooting.”
After conducting an investigation, the FBI said the tip line did not follow protocol when the information was not forwarded to the Miami Field Office, where investigative steps would have been taken. The FBI opened a probe into the tip line’s operations.
The lack of response by Israel and other members of the Broward Country sheriff’s department to the numerous red flags and warnings about Cruz has been the subject of much scrutiny. In the days following the shooting, calls for Israel’s resignation intensified as more information that alluded to the department’s inaction was revealed. Since the shooting, Israel has declined to resign and refused to take responsibility for his role in failing to stop Cruz before the mass shooting took place. In an interview with CNN, Israel described his leadership at the department as “amazing”, a claim that was widely mocked and criticized.
Peabody, this is helpful information. You’ve certainly done your research. I would not disagree that this Cruz guy should have been been monitored and watched.
But here’s the thing – and I’m not a legal person so keep this in mind with my question – how can law enforcement monitor a POTENTIAL criminal?
Meaning, someone who has SAID publicly that he or she is going to commit some crime at some point, but at the time of stating such has not violated any law?
I don’t know the laws about this. Under our current system, is such a would-be criminal protected under the First Amendment, free speech, etc?
Obviously some people who SAY they are going to do horrible things, DO them. Then again, others don’t.
How is the law allowed to handle such people?
Here’s an example from my own life:
A landlord I know in my town has a tenant – she’s mental. She hears noises that aren’t there. She says her neighbor is running an extremely loud air conditioner that is preventing her from sleeping – in the middle of winter – when neither her neighbor or anyone in the building are running air conditioners. She’s obsessed with this neighbor. What else…she howls and moans in the middle of the night as per her fellow residents, waking them up… She’s also a sporadic rent payer which is grounds for the landlord to not renew her lease but he renews it – know why? Because 5 years ago she got her notice of non-renewal from him and called and emailed threatening to kill herself if he didn’t renew her lease. He renewed it.
Since then he’s told me she’s threatened to kill herself, throw herself out the window, if the landlord doesn’t force the tenant next door to her to remove the air conditioner which she claims is being run just to make sure she can’t sleep.She has emailed him a number of times stating that if a repair she’s requesting is not done immediately she’ll throw herself out the window.
This woman is nuts and the landlord is stuck with her because one day after all these threats to kill herself she just might do it. And he might be blamed for having caused all her distress. He thinks.
Obviously she should be in an institution but no, she’s out, walking around, she speaks well, she dresses well and comes across as normal. She’s broken no laws. The law protects her from being picked up and whisked off to an mental asylum.
What to do? Sorry for the long post this turned out to be, Peabody but honestly, I would love to get some insight into this kind of issue, wherein someone states beforehand the intention of committing a crime (I think suicide is a crime, right? 🙂 )
In Florida, there’s a Statute (394.451-394.47891) called the Baker Act which allows for involuntary examination (what some call emergency or involuntary commitment). It can be initiated by judges, law enforcement officials, physicians, or mental health professionals.
The criteria, as stated in the statute, mentions a substantial likelihood that without care or treatment the person will cause serious bodily harm in the near future. (“Substantial” means ample, considerable, firm or strong.)
Examinations may last up to 72 hours after a person is deemed medically stable and occur in over 100 Florida Department of Children and Families-designated receiving facilities statewide.
There are many possible outcomes following examination of the patient. This includes the release of the individual to the community (or other community placement), a petition for involuntary inpatient placement (what some call civil commitment), involuntary outpatient placement (what some call outpatient commitment or assisted treatment orders), or voluntary treatment (if the person is competent to consent to voluntary treatment and consents to voluntary treatment). The involuntary outpatient placement language in the Baker Act took effect as part of the Baker Act reform in 2005.
I would assume that there are similar Statutes in other States.
Suicide legislation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_legislation#Americas
Peabody, thanks very much for this information. Its good to know that Florida has this statute to implement in order to handle people who threaten suicide. I don’t know if my state has it but I’m going to show what you’ve written to my landlord friend. Thanks again!
Aqua, I love this post. If this is how you are when emotional, I say more of it!!
Thanks, OTD. Calm now. Its just all so senseless, and it seems like as a nation we’re getting more and more accepting of these utterly senseless slaughters, beginning to shrug at what is beyond- barbarian behavior.
Yes Mike. Totally correct. Just like everything else in the cult it all comes down to “give me money”. The report they want money to print and mail is already available on the internet. It is on the CCHR website. So links could merely be emailed to targets for free! No printing or postage. Sure the cult might worry that emails might be seen as spam and never reach targets but I’ve personally witnessed boxes of books and other printed propaganda lying in the closet of the head of a county probation department that were old and never opened. So the chances that printed crap will be worth the effort are small indeed. But again, it is all about the money. Wonder if the cult takes it and still just sends out a bulk emailing? Quite likely I think.
It is a bit silly to claim that substantial funds are necessary to disseminate this information. When/if I receive free reports, they (generally) are sent via e-mail or downloaded from a website. Heck, I really don’t even like to have a lot of hard copies taking up space in my office. I much prefer an electronic version, which allows for searches, allows for me to share, and permits for selective printing of specific sections.
For such a “cool” religion, Scientology sure is stuck in the past. I can see them cranking up the 1950’s mimeograph to churn out a few thousand of these reports.
If you deliver a primitive pre-scientific message of ignorance, prejudice and fear you might as well match the delivery method to it.
Ha, ha, ha. Perfect!!!
They have a mimeograph? Damn! That’s high tech for the cult.
It’s just lipstick on the ole dipstick.
Whoa! That’s really heavy!
Yes they do. After the debacle with the monkeys with the biros and paper, too many bananas and peanuts and a touch of diarrhoea, they upgraded to mimeograph.
JVB,
Rumor has it that one of the set of questions that the RTC would use to question anyone currently claiming to be LRH reincarnated are:
Describe and run a Gestetner A4
Describe and run a Teletype 32.
Describe and run a Mathison Electropsychometer of 1950.
The REAL Ron would hop to it and have the antique up and running like a Singer manual sewing machine in a heart beat. He would proceed to write an HCOPL for each. It would be at that point that the demented midget would ‘do a bunk’ (run like hell).
LOL 😉
JVB: Mimeograph wouldn’t do it… As I recall from ’70 or so, a Mimeo was good for only about 500 copies, and getting spotty well before then. These days, they DO know a bit about modern computers, so they could fire up their laserprinters for as many copies as they have supplies. Lacks the great alcohol smell from the mimeos, but they can suffer; they’re slaves, anyway and