It’s been some time since any news about Debbie Cook has surfaced. Then last weekend Tony Ortega posted that she has just published a book on Amazon about recovering from Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue.
Although I haven’t spoken to Debbie in years, I have thought about her and Wayne many times and after reading some of the comments on Tony’s blog, I felt some background information might be of interest to fill in a few blanks and perhaps dispel some misconceptions.
There hasn’t really been a reason for me to write about this before. Marty covered the activities of her case and the subsequent settlement on his blog at the time and I concurred with what he said.
But I also have my perspective on events and until now I have not shared them.
At the outset, let me say that I have known Debbie since the day she first arrived to join the Sea Org. I was running the CMO in Clearwater at the time and she came into CMO CW as a wet-behind-the-ears new recruit. Her North Carolina accent and southern manners and style made her stand out.
I was not really close to her in the early years, and I never “hung out” with her other than at “org outings.” But when you work closely with someone and are in the Sea Org together for as long as we were you get to know them. I have always respected Debbie because of her determination to be the best that she could be in everything she did. She trained herself as a NOTs auditor and Intern Sup and was respected as a tech terminal. She trained herself administratively. And she held one of the toughest posts in Scientology – Captain of the Flag Service Organization. If you look prior to Debbie assuming the post there is a lengthy list of previous occupants who lasted months or a couple of years at most. She was the Captain for 17 years.
But I don’t need to describe her history in the Sea Org or the FSO. There are a lot of people who know her from that time.
I am sure she did things she isn’t proud of – it’s pretty much inevitable to remain alive in any executive position in scientology that you do things that are against your inherent nature. It is simply survival. But she did care about the service the public received and brought a remarkable level of stability to the FSO.
Of more interest is what happened after she left the church.
Like everyone else, I was surprised to see her email on New Year’s eve of 2011. It landed like a nuclear bomb in the scientology world. Here was one of the most prominent and beloved scientology executives calling out things that everyone knew were wrong but were afraid to say.
She put her neck on the line because she disagreed with how people were being mistreated. And she paid the price that few others were willing to pay (which is why they were afraid to speak).
At the time of her email I had no idea of the story of how she had come to depart the church, but I was soon to learn. When I left in 2007 as far as I knew she was still one of Miscavige’s “favored ones” — held up as an example to others to prove their incompetence. In fact, the last time I had seen her she had not been sent to the Hole as an inmate, but was sent by Miscavige, along with Bob Keenan to “inspect” the Hole and execute his order to have its inhabitants “overboarded” in the lake… She didn’t seem too enthused about her task.
Shortly thereafter, like everyone who had preceded her as one of the favored few, she too was an “SP” and was assigned to the Hole. Her story about being put in a trash can with a sign declaring her a lesbian because she told the truth that in fact Marc Yager and Guillaume Lesevre had not engaged in homosexual acts with one another would become the stuff of media headlines.
But I knew none of this until the church acted to try to “squash her like a bug” soon after the email appeared. Within about 4 weeks they filed suit against Debbie and Wayne in San Antonio Texas (where they were living at the time) claiming the email was a violation of the contracts they had signed in order to be allowed to leave.
Debbie reached out to Marty Rathbun and I – she was being sued by scientology and she had no idea what to expect. But she knew we would.
I flew to Texas and met with Wayne and Debbie to offer whatever assistance I could.
I learned a lot about what had happened to them since I had left the Sea Org in June 2007.
It turns out they had left later in 2007 after Debbie’s stint in the Hole. They escaped from Flag. It was an exciting story like so many other “blows” and I am not sure it ever came out. Briefly, after her experiences at Int Debbie and Wayne carefully planned their escape. No longer allowed to drive themselves anywhere, they were driven from the Hacienda Gardens each morning by Debbie’s Assistant. She asked her to stop at the dining hall in the Clearwater Bank building and grab her some food, Debbie and Wayne would wait in the van and the air conditioning needed to stay on. As soon as she was inside Debbie jumped in the front seat, drove to the nearest car rental place, got a car and set off for her father’s home in North Carolina.
Enroute, they stopped to get something to eat at a diner in North Carolina, just an hour away from her father’s house. They were tracked down by Kathy True and Co doing a “blow drill.” Ms. True walked in on Wayne and Debbie eating. She had a goon squad in a van outside ready to drive them back to Clearwater. Debbie bluffed and said her father had instructions to call the police if they didn’t show up that afternoon.
Kathy True followed them to Debbie’s father’s and made various promises to get them to return to “route out.” She told Debbie she would be given the medical treatment she needed. That she would be allowed to see her mother and that Wayne would be allowed to remain connected to his family, including his 2 sons. True also promised they would NOT stay at the Hacienda but would be off church premises with Debbie’s mother. They flew back to Clearwater, accompanied by Kathy False. They were picked up at the airport to be driven to the agreed upon location where they would stay. At the last minute the van turned and drove right through the open gates of the Hacienda and they were trapped. But they had anticipated dirty pool, and had a hidden phone with them.
Of course, all promises that had been made to get them to return to “route out” were forgotten once they arrived back under the control of RTC. As anyone who has ever experienced this knows, the sec checks are endless. Literally. The idea is that the sec check is complete when you no longer want to leave and are willing to route yourself to the RPF. Debbie and Wayne had no intention of “being handled,” they wanted out in a bad way, and Debbie was suffering from Fibromyalgia. They signed the documents Elliot Abelson brought them to sign, knowing they would not be able to leave unless they did so. In the end, Debbie brought about a cessation of the sec checks by telling them her mother had instructions to call the police if she was not out of there in 2 days.
They were eventually allowed to leave and Wayne and Debbie started their lives over in Texas with a small marketing company. Debbie focused on recovering from her illness. But the abuses Debbie had witnessed and experienced and the abuses they knew were continuing gnawed on them. They knew they had to do something, but felt restricted by the agreements they had signed.
They decided to write something that was not critical of scientology itself, but pointed to violations of the church’s own policy and send it only to scientologists. They didn’t consider this was a violation of the agreement as it was like writing a scientology knowledge report. The email went out to more than ten thousand Scientologists and the response was ballistic. Debbie received thousands of email answers and Facebook messages and it was picked up in the Tampa Bay Times, then USA Today, Good Morning America, Yahoo News and all around the world. The “Debbie Cook email” was translated by others into Spanish, Italian, German, French, Russian and Taiwanese. Websites and Facebook pages such as “I love Debbie Cook’s email” went up to disseminate the email and recipients sent it to their friends. It was a measure of the importance of that email that something that is essentially written in scientologese and would be difficult for most people outside the bubble to understand generated such enormous interest.
The church didn’t wait long to act. They filed a lawsuit and requested a temporary restraining order. Such proceedings are expedited, meaning you have just a few days before you have to appear in court to respond. It’s a tactic the church has used before, as it puts the person you sue at a distinct disadvantage trying to scramble to respond to something you have had weeks to put together. Debbie and Wayne were not expecting to be sued, had no attorney to work with and not a lot of money to even hire one. Ray Jeffrey was a godsend. A friend of a friend recommended him and Ray agreed to take on the case. Believe me, you don’t find too many lawyers who are willing to take on the church of scientology for any client that doesn’t have a bottomless bank account to fund a team of lawyers. Nor do you find too many that will drop everything to prepare for a Temporary Restraining Order hearing against the church of scientology with virtually no notice. Fortuitously, Ray had read Janet Reitman’s book about Scientology when he was on vacation a few months earlier. From that he knew who Marty and I were and he had an idea of what the church of scientology was about. But still, no matter how you cut it, the deck was stacked against Wayne and Debbie and their new lawyer.
Marty and I helped get Ray briefed and prepared to represent Debbie and Wayne at the hearing and he in turn worked with them to ensure they understood what was going to happen.
They were looking down the barrel of a howitzer. The church had a contract they had signed and thus a presumption they were in the right and Debbie and Wayne had on its face, violated that agreement. They faced a large monetary claim because the agreement specified damages for any breach.
David Miscavige thought he had contained Debbie and Wayne and they had defied him. He was now bringing the full force of his petulance to bear with big gun lawfirms and teams of legal preps staff working day and night to bury Wayne and Debbie. Hell hath no fury like a scorned COP.
The easier option for them would have been to walk into court and ask for lenience, explain to the judge they had not thought they were violating the agreement with the email and promise not to do it again. It may well have worked. But Debbie and Wayne didn’t want to just bail and run.
Debbie’s testimony at that hearing was headlined around the world. Her voice reached tens of millions of people telling of the abuses she had both witnessed and experienced. In the middle of the hearing, the church decided not to continue and told the court they were going to reassess and bring other legal actions.
But Debbie and Wayne were not out of the woods by any stretch, though they had kicked Miscavige and the church right in the nuts and their eyes were watering.
If you have never been in the position of confronting the scientology litigation and intimidation/investigation machinery, I really don’t believe you could understand what it is like. At this point, Debbie and Wayne had a taste of it, but had not really experienced the full brunt of days or weeks of depositions and the weight that this sort of litigation puts on your shoulders.
So, when the church indicated they would be interested in settling the case, both Marty and I told Debbie and Wayne they should do so. We advised them to walk away with whatever they could get and get on with their lives knowing they had struck a blow the likes of which scientology, and especially Miscavige, had not experienced before. A blow that would have never-ending ramifications. That toothpaste was well and truly out of the tube and smeared all over Miscavige’s bathroom mirror.
At first, Debbie adamantly refused to even entertain the idea of settling. Marty and I convinced her to do so. Marc Headley also talked to her, both he and Claire DID know what it was like to engage in a legal battle with scientology and they were plaintiffs. He too advised her to take the win and walk away with her head held high.
I think what finally convinced Debbie that it was not cowardly to settle with the church was the fact that their marketing company had been toileted because of disconnection – most of their clients were Scientologists in the bubble – cutting off their only source of income. But more devastating was the fact that while all this was going on Ray Jeffrey’s long-time law partner was diagnosed with aggressive, advanced breast cancer. Ray had relied on her to take care of his other clients and cases while he devoted himself almost full time to defending Wayne and Debbie. That was no longer an option, and though Ray never told them he was unwilling or unable to continue to fight for them, we all understood the inhumane pressure it would put on Ray to have to try and carry both loads. On top of that, Debbie had a relapse of her Fibromyalgia symptoms.
Debbie and Wayne were drained financially from just round one and though many people made generous donations to their cause, they had no way to continue to fund a lawsuit of this magnitude. The church already had more than a dozen attorneys involved on their side
Settling was the only viable option. It was not as if they were walking away with their tails between their legs. Debbie had stood on the rooftop and shouted long and loud that there was something rotten in Denmark. When they tried to knock her off the roof she had inflicted serious injury as she fought to not be silenced. Injury that has continued to resonate with people to this day. The “Debbie Cook email” and her video’d testimony and media interviews will never go away.
But when you are overwhelmingly outgunned and outmanned and outfinanced, you walk away from the fight unless you have a death wish.
I pushed Debbie hard to settle. It was a no-brainer as far as I was concerned. I knew she would have to agree not to talk further, the church would not settle and would just grind her into dust if she did not agree to shut up. Whether they were right or wrong, scientology could drag out litigation for 10 years. I didn’t want to see her and Wayne and Ray Jeffrey have to live with that sort of stress and financial draining.
What happened in the settlement discussions and the terms that were agreed upon I have no idea. Neither Marty nor I were involved. It was hammered out between Debbie and Wayne and Ray and the church and its lawyers.
Of course, since the end of the litigation was announced, there are those who sit on the sidelines and criticize their decision and proclaim from some assumed position of authority that Debbie and Wayne had an obligation to “keep fighting.” But those people are almost exclusively Monday morning quarterbacks who have never been in battle. They think they have a right to criticize others without having walked in their shoes. To those people I say, do something of enough magnitude that you get yourself entangled in legal proceedings with scientology, and after that, then you can criticize.
I know a lot of people who have displayed a hell of a lot less courage than Debbie and Wayne Baumgarten. In fact, I don’t know a lot of people who have had the courage to do what they have done. Not said they would do. Not taken potshots from the safety of an anonymous blog comment. Actually stood toe to toe and delivered a gutshot.
I hope they are living a well, happy and peaceful life. I believe everyone owes them a debt of gratitude for what they did, not an uninformed snide comment about what they supposedly haven’t done.
When the history of this fight is finally written, Debbie Cook will be an important figure who had a significant and lasting impact on the course of events that will eventually result in an end to the abuses in scientology.
I know from her attorney that her book about Fibromyalgia has nothing to do with Scientology. No touch assists, no engrams. Rather it is about her journey to recovery and the medical resources that she found to recover her health.
Here are links to her books and websites
website: http://www.fibromyalgiafree.org/
Great write up Mike. This gives a lot of clarification for me. I was excited when Debbie’s email first appeared and supported her fully. As time went on I became disappointed that no take over or big reform took place. I assumed it was a case of take the money and run. Now I understand and appreciate the situation. Thank you.
Thank you for the backstory and additional info on Debbie Cook. I would love more of these kinds of stories like about DMs brother, etc. This one was obviously of interest and very enlightening 🙂
I’ve known Debbie since 1984 and she was always a wonderful and beautiful person who tried to make the best of a bad situation. Her courage is legendary. I have nothing but respect for her. She and Wayne faced the CoS legal machinery and somehow, miraculously, managed to dive through the Whirling Blades of Death and come out the other side even more whole than when she started. Many, many people have not been so lucky. Together, they pounded a wooden stake into the vampire’s heart and lived to tell about it. That stake was her courtroom testimony, captured on video, revealing a nasty truth about the other side of Scientology — the pestilent evil, that was de-powered by her actions.
Respect extends to the many people who helped in that battle — Ray Jeffery and his team, Marty, Mike, and those like Karen #1 who donated funds to help Debbie and Wayne put groceries on the table during their darkest hours.
Great post Mike. I salute you for the courage you put forward on a daily basis by sharing your thoughts and fighting the injustice of the CofS.
Debbie was my hero when I was on staff at Flag. She loved the staff and fought against insanity as much as she could. She cared for every staff member and when she couldn’t deliver, it always RTC who would cross order her. Thanks to her I was able to go to Israel for my son’s Bar Mitzva. Thanks to her I was able to be with my family for the entire day, the only full day I got in 2005. She tried to bring sanity to the Solo Not’s HGC by spending hours with the D of Ps, knowing how insanely our post was. I will never forget it.
Her letter prompted me to take a stand and make it known what I have experienced as staff and SO member in Flag. Cruelty has to be exposed. No person can judge someone in her position. She is true “David” against “Goliath”. Mike and Marty, and other I don’t know, thank you for helping Debbie and Wayne to survive and to arrive to a survival decision. Otherwise, they would have fought a lost battle.
Kudos to Them and You.
I want to take advantage of this post to discuss something very important , and related to this dilemma. I already offered my opinion about Debbie at my reply to Idle Morgue ; so now I’ll share my viewpoint on the subject of Scientology as related to this and other events of similar nature.
First , I feel that many here are relating these events to the current administration , that of DM , since the early ’80s even before LRH passed away. DM had everything already figured out since before Mayo was purposely chosen as the target to get rid of. But all these events are NOT the direct consequence of DM and company ; these events are a DIRECT result of Scientology’s cult(ish) nature itself. Scientology as a philosophy IS a cult , and has ALWAYs been a cult ; period.
I know that many of my dear friends are going to become very concerned , and even upset by my comments , but my duty is first to Truth and Human Rights , and then everything else follows. It is in that order that I always work.
Every cult share some special traits and characteristics. It doesn’t matter is the cult is political , religious , or psycho-therapeutic in nature ; they share similar if not exact traits.
At the website ‘Let Us Reason’ ( http://www.letusreason.org/culteac.htm ) , we find common characteristics of cults . Some of them are :
1. They usually have a leader that is considered by the cult members as a kind of Messiah with god-like attributes. This leader is admired beyond belief, and never questioned in his motives. He is thought to be perfect, infallible. He has a very high control of the cult members, almost an hypnotic one. He is the “solution” to “salvation” ; he is going to “save us all”. Every Scientologist always thought that LRH was a god-like individual right about EVERYTHING he ever wrote about, and not to be ever questioned. His words were Truth personified.
2. To maintain the loyalty of the group and control its members, many methods are used : fear of rejection, punishment , losing our “salvation” , living in eternal pain , not going to a “heaven” , failing in life, etc. “Losing one’s ‘Eternity” comes to mind. LRH was always bringing that point home, like in KSW#1. It was always an indoctrinated fear that we might die , and get lost into oblivion and eternal darkness.
3. Weapons such as intimidation and accusation are frequently used to maintain devotion. Questioning “authority” is interpreted as rebellion and distrust, and one is labeled as “disaffected”. “Not with the Org” and “Against Scn” comes to mind. Questioning LRH at anything was VERY frowned upon when I were on staff. One never dared to publicly dissent from LRH. That always meant a trip to Ethics.
4. They discourage critical thinking , even though that most of the time they make it appear just the opposite ; that they are in fact, fostering “Free will”. Just as Scn does with its creed and the “Code of a Scientologist” , but then in KSW#1 and the “SP acts list” , Scn actually forbid and suppress free will and self-determinism.
We have the “We the Church believe” bullshit , like, “That all men have inalienable rights to think freely, to talk freely, to write freely their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others” point , except if what we are talking “freely” about is against LRH and/or Scn. If that’s the case , then the “free thinking” and “free speech right” is looked upon as “natter’ and “disaffection”.
5. They have a lot of command over the member’s intimate affairs. Who to talk to, to whom be connected to or not, what groups or individuals to avoid, are ways that its members are kept on line, and “free” from being negatively influenced by others. “SP declarations” , “Disconnection” , “Hatred for psychiatrists”, “Hatred for dissidents” , are examples of how this characteristic manifest in Scn.”
6. GROUP TRUST: “Confession Sessions are used to build relationships. Full disclosure of all secret sins, thoughts, temptations, desires are expressed with those you know and may not know to build up your trusting them with your life. These can become a powerful tools to emotionally bond you to the leader or group. They later can be used to manipulate, or blackmail someone if and when they decide to leave.”
LRH used the Tech of Confessional to put in line whoever disagreed with “Standard Tech” or him. A lot of bad control is done through confessionals regardless of the value that they do have in helping others.
7. Isolation : “They cut off or denigrating outside sources of information, especially if it is critical of the group. One is not allowed to read or converse with those who say these things or was once part of the group and left for whatever circumstances. Ties are severed with former friends and family and the circle becomes tighter as the only people you are exposed are them. One reads only their books and are discouraged or forbidden to read other books, especially if one opposes their views.”
Not allowing Scientologist to Google-search Scn in the Net, comes to mind. We were indoctrinated with the idea that LRH had discovered EVERYTHING that ever needed to be discovered. So we didn’t have to look at any other sources except Scn to look and find ALL answers to existence. Pretty crazy shit , if one look at it closely.
8. “AN “US AGAINST THEM” ATTITUDE AND PHILOSOPHY: Anyone who challenges the cult’s doctrine is automatically branded as an enemy which is usually anyone who disagrees. The cultists feel that they are being persecuted unfairly.”
I don’t think that I have to explain this one ; it speaks for itself.
9. “FOCUS ON AN IMAGINED ENEMY: The enemy can be seen to be the government, the IRS, the Illuminati, new world order, UFO’s (or other conspirators) the Jews, Blacks (other ethnic groups if they are politically oriented) certain church denominations are considered the enemy. The focus shifts from inside and instead of truth and purpose, keeps the adherents busy towards something outside, It also stops them from looking in and really thinking things through.”
Scn against the government and psychiatry ; its two big “enemies”. It was always the battle against them, specially Psychiatry.
Now you dear Scientologists , tell me honesty if the above 9 traits and characteristics don’t describe Scn since 1954 with the creation of the first “church” , and after the issue of the article at Ability major 1955 mid-March , “The Scientologist : A Manual On the Dissemination of Materials” ? On such an article , LRH set the precedent for all the witch-hunt that ensued and continued up to PT. Read it for yourself , and arrive at your own decisions.
Sorry , many friends of mine , but the above is factual and very easy to prove , if an unbiased attitude is maintain. Scientology as a philosophy IS a cult , and always has been a cult. Does that invalid many workable procedures , processes ,and principles that it DOES posseses ? Not at all. The choice is yours whether to use them or not , and how exactly to use them.
I had the lofty goal of “Rehabilitating Scientology”. I even wrote a very long and interesting article about it. Perhaps it’ll get published at some blog one of these days , perhaps not. But now I am not even sure if that’s a goal worth pursuing. There is so many things wrong with Scn , that I don’t even know where to start correcting it. I don’t know ; may be I’ll just write a book as some dear friend suggested me.
Anyway , there some “food for thought” there. Use it in whatever way you like , but don’t just brush it all off w/out giving yourselves a chance to at least research the topic , and once finished , deciding by yourselves whether it is true or not. I am sure many of you will thank me later.
Take care.
Best Regards ,
TC
Theta Clear, you wrote: “Scientology as a philosophy IS a cult , and has ALWAYs been a cult; period.”
No disagreement with the above except for the word “ALWAYS”. I don’t think you’ll find anything in the basic books that are cultish – and in fact, in the earliest years LRH made many statements to the contrary. For example, here’s a quote of the last paragraph of the article “How to Study Scientology.”
“So, the only advice I can give to the student is to study a subject for itself and use it exactly as stated, then form his own opinions. Study it with the purpose in mind of arriving at his own conclusions as to whether or not the tenets he has assimilated are correct and workable. Compare what you have learned with the known universe. Seek for the reasons behind a manifestation, and postulate the manner and in which direction the manifestation will likely proceed. Do not allow the Authority of any one person or school of thought to create a foregone conclusion within your sphere of knowledge. Only with these principles of education in mind can you become a truly educated individual.”
I will give Hubbard the benefit of the doubt and assert that it might be likely he did not intend to create a cult. But as things evolved over the years, he surely discovered that tight control over his most loyal members (Sea Org) and Staff were needed in order to keep enough people working to service the public. The only way he could keep enough people working was to create a cult.
Sometimes the public got very good service, but the auditing prices, especially after the 5% per month fiasco in the 1980’s, were way too high. So even those that got good service likely did not get their money’s worth.
“I will give Hubbard the benefit of the doubt and assert that it might be likely he did not intend to create a cult. But as things evolved over the years, he surely discovered that tight control over his most loyal members (Sea Org) and Staff were needed in order to keep enough people working to service the public. The only way he could keep enough people working was to create a cult.”
Beryl, I tend to see it just the way you do. Hubbard most likely made the mistake of thinking the ends would justify the means. Back in the 80’s I met an old timer named Ray Noll, who told me that Ron got very excited when he realized that Scientology really could get beings out of the muck. I got the impression that he had heard this from Ron himself.
The idea that the ends justify the means and a worldview of “us vs. them” were part of the culture in Ron’s time. That factor plus the character flaw of wanting glory for himself – on top of gigantic pressure being put on him for literally decades (according to Marty Rathbun in his last book), all combine to make it not too hard to understand why the movement failed.
Ron himself stated at the end of his life that he had failed. And, yes, the movement he started had failed – but I don’t know that Scientology itself has failed. I think Ron was right that truth can’t be stopped, and I can’t help but believe that some of the philosophy and tech has already filtered into the culture and that it will continue to do so.
Thanks for your reply!
I think Ron was right that truth can’t be stopped, and I can’t help but believe that some of the philosophy and tech has already filtered into the culture and that it will continue to do so.
This is a very interesting comment.
Let us assume this is true. It is an interesting thing to analyze scientology against this measuring stick.
One would imagine that were it all “truth” it would be unstoppable. But that is simply not the case. You can find MANY more people who are EX scientologists than you can find current scientologists. There is a large turnover (I would maintain at this point it is simply an erosion, more leaving than coming in).
But this simple fact alone — that so many people have immersed themselves in scientology, only to fall away or actively depart, would argue against how much truth it contains wouldn’t you say?
Mike: “But this simple fact alone — that so many people have immersed themselves in scientology, only to fall away or actively depart, would argue against how much truth it contains wouldn’t you say?”
Actually, I’d say that depends on what you call Scientology. A number of factors are involved in its meaning – such as WHEN (the time period) a person was involved in “Scientology”, and WHERE. Not all orgs, even at the same period of time, delivered the same quality of products. I base that on my experience in a mission, and on staff at an org and in the SO – in both service and management orgs.
IMO, where Hubbard actually failed was in how the church was run, which got many times worse with Miscavige in charge – and that has been for the last four decades! So I would guess that the majority of people who have “fallen away or actively departed” were of that era.
Obviously, all the above is in reference to the CoS – i.e. organized Scientology. But as for definition of Scientology meaning “its core philosophy and tech” – I’ve based my views about it on several things: What I directly observed in the CoS (both very good and very bad), as well as all the pros and cons I’ve read on the internet for the last several years – plus the first- and second-hand accounts coming from the “Independent field”, where there’s no denying that people are making gains they are quite happy with.
An interesting phenomenon I’ve noticed over these last few years, on the various Scientology blogs and forums, is that many people who once wrote comments about all their gains, eventually “discovered” that there were “no gains after all” or very few and not lasting – although those gains had previously lasted for quite a while.
Now, I don’t doubt that some of them really did see things differently and realized how much they were simply brainwashed – because I know there’s truth to that. Ironically, however, I also get that there’s truth to the idea that many of them were essentially “brainwashed” by the apparently convincing (or just plain repetitive and continuous) viewpoints of others – many of whom had very little experience with the tech, or none at all. This is like “armchair evaluation”.
In any case, I appreciate that you allow all views to be expressed here, Mike, and that you don’t really chop anybody’s head off too badly. 🙂
I try Marildi. I don’t doubt people have gains or that I had gains. I try to look at things as honestly as I can.
Not wanting to engage you in a debate about this. I was simply making an observation based on the interesting quote you included. And I think you can aggregate the subject over 50 years — has this statement held true with respect to scientology or not.
Mike: “And I think you can aggregate the subject over 50 years — has this statement held true with respect to scientology or not.”
Okay. Here’s what you quoted from my earlier post: “I think Ron was right that truth can’t be stopped, and I can’t help but believe that some of the philosophy and tech has already filtered into the culture and that it will continue to do so.”
For starters, I don’t think I said anything too exaggerated or extreme: “…SOME of the philosophy and tech…”
The short answer to your question is that actual Scientology – the core philosophy and tech, NOT the organization – hasn’t been practiced enough for it to spread to any extent more than “some”. Its practice has been corrupted, in great part, and that corrupt version isn’t “truth”. On top of it, it has given Scientology in general a bad name.
Nevertheless, as I commented not too long ago, I don’t know of another practice that can zero in so well and so quickly to handle the common barriers many people experience. So if the current stigma is lifted, I think it would be a whole different story. The principles and tech may not survive under the name “Scientology”, but I do think they will survive.
It’s even possible that at some point down the road, someone may take a fresh look at the subject (uninfluenced by all the current noise around the CoS and LRH) – and revive it. Sort of like Neoplatonism – we may live to see the rise of Neoscientology. (Don’t shoot me, Mike. 🙂 )
So, the real answer is that truth can be stopped. All it requires is some humans to form an organization…
Hi Thoughtful,Thank you for this post.In it you showed what I was trying to convey in my earlier post concerning seeing each of our cos journeys as individual to each person,shouting back & forth is a good way to let off steam(I have a screaming tree),but ultimately the shouters end up in an endless argument.What you post about respect is so correct.Love respect courage caring I think we all held those qualities as reachable when we went into SO etc,the structure of the cult burned those ideals out because Ron/David require that.Now out I know that we all still have so much to give otherwise we would all still be On Source Forever.Laughter.Love Ann.
What I tried to say was that truth can definitely be slowed but perhaps not stopped. But for the record, in case I misrepresented it, here’s the exact quote of Hubbard’s:
“All disturbance and chaos folds up in the teeth of truth. Don’t ever try to stop truth. It’s the only thing that can go through 16 inch armor plate.”
Dear Marildi, long time don’t see. Glad to exchange comms with you again dear. I tried to acknowledge your comms in some earlier thread, but I kept on getting an “Invalid security token” message. At the end, I was able to sent something through, but I don’t know if you he actually got it. It is right at the end of the thread of “Golden Age of Tech for OTs”.
You know me , I always acknowledge your comms and that of others. So if at any time something is not acked, then either I didn’t get it, or there is some technical difficulty going on.
As regards to your comment that “not always was a cult”, yourare right.Perhaps I did sound too absolute about it. That’s why I made the clarification that Scientology’s cult(ish) nature began to be visible right after 1954 with the creation of the first “church”. That ref is around that time , a little earlier in fact, if I remember it correctly. Then in 1955 LRH wrote, “The Scientologist : A Manual on the Dissemination of Materials” , where the wich-hunt actually began. By that time LRH had already adopted a cult(ish) attitude towards Scn.
His two apparent “Uppterms” , “Government” and “Psychiatry” apparently turned on on him, and the rest is a very well known history of disaster.
By the way, that’s my favorite reference. Its name was later changed (while he was still on lines) to “How to Study Scientogy”. The original tittleis tobe foundat the first edition of “A New Slant On Life”.
Unfortunately for all of us, he didn’t apply that ref to Scn neither to his own research.
Evidence of this is how his life ended, and the incredible mess,frustration,pain, disorder, and conflic that he left behind.
A dear friend of mine claim that he (LRH) went “PTS” to government, and assigned the downfall of LRH to that. Well, using LRH’s own “Standard Tech” , that could only have happened if he had very serious overts against terminals representing the governments. My ¢2 cents. :-)))
Take care, dear.
ARC TC
—
Thanks, TC. Yes, long time no see. 🙂
And you’re right – I didn’t see a reply to me on that other thread, but I will look for it now.
Gee, I don’t think there was anything you said in the above that I would argue with. Maybe next time, though (kidding you!). 😀
Thanks dear Marildi ,
And that’s quite all right ; I love to be challenged by great minds such as yours. :-)))
ML
TC
Perhaps when Hubbard wrote that early quote at the end of ‘How to Study Scientology’ he did not intend to form a cult. Then again, perhaps the group itself, including its leader was in the genesis or honeymoon phase of the cult. Either way, it certainly evolved into one. Who really knows what Hubbard’s actual intentions were when he wrote that, except to look at the words he wrote and glean your own understanding from them. Regardless, I would not take it literally if I were to be a ‘truly educated individual.’
“Regardless, I would not take it literally if I were to be a ‘truly educated individual.’ ”
Fair enough, Pepper. I would just add that a “truly educated individual” could make an “educated guess”, regardless. And I guess we both feel we are doing that.
Cheers.
Marildi wrote:
“An interesting phenomenon I’ve noticed over these last few years, on the various Scientology blogs and forums, is that many people who once wrote comments about all their gains, eventually “discovered” that there were “no gains after all” or very few and not lasting – although those gains had previously lasted for quite a while.”
This is a very interesting observation of yours.
“Now, I don’t doubt that some of them really did see things differently and realized how much they were simply brainwashed – because I know there’s truth to that.”
So you are adopting the brainwashing argument now. Interesting.
” Ironically, however, I also get that there’s truth to the idea that many of them were essentially “brainwashed” by the apparently convincing (or just plain repetitive and continuous) viewpoints of others – many of whom had very little experience with the tech, or none at all. This is like “armchair evaluation”.”
This could be true of some of them.
What about other causes for what you have observed in this area?
How about someone who continued on with their personal, spiritual path or learning after Scientology and got wins in other practices such as yoga or Buddhism, or Christian prayer?
What if these new wins from other practices gave them a different perspective on their wins from Scientology? Wins weren’t in the sole province of practicing Scientology any more. Wins had data of comparable magnitude now. These people could use judgement on those wins they had in Scientology and they were no longer stuck in them.
And when they did put those Scientology wins into a different context with other wins from other spiritual practices, they saw clearly all the exploitation, greed, and outright deception employed in Scientology and wanted nothing more to do with it. And they said so on the message boards and blogs that you frequent.
Could that be another cause for the phenomena you have observed of former Scientologists “losing their wins”?
Could this also be a big reason why Hubbard forbade “other practices”?
If there is one thing that long time Scientologists are stuck in, Marildi, it’s their wins. Usually when they discover better, cheaper, and less deceptive ways of getting wins in other spiritual practices, they are gone from Scientology and want nothing more to do with it.
And they say so.
That’s what I have observed as the major cause for the phenomena you mentioned.
Could this be a cause that you are missing?
Alanzo
Alanzo: “And when they did put those Scientology wins into a different context with other wins from other spiritual practices, they saw clearly all the exploitation, greed, and outright deception employed in Scientology and wanted nothing more to do with it. And they said so on the message boards and blogs that you frequent. Could that be another cause for the phenomena you have observed of former Scientologists ‘losing their wins’?”
It could be, Al. But if, as you say, “they saw clearly all the exploitation, greed, and outright deception employed in Scientology,” then what they experienced wasn’t Scientology as a subject – i.e. the core philosophy and tech – which was specifically what I was talking about and I think I made that clear. As for Scientology as an organization, the CoS – you’re making my point. 😉
But thanks very much for the ack on my statement that “many of them [former Scientologists] were essentially ‘brainwashed’ by the apparently convincing (or just plain repetitive and continuous) viewpoints of others [critics].”
Your response to the above was: “This could be true of some of them.”
It seems that after all this time as sparring partners, you and I are coming close to a middle ground. Scary, isn’t it? 🙂
That is correct Mike. And the Organization that stops the truth can even be run by the person who is trying to keep the Truth from being stopped!
Such is the circular logic that is Scientology “tek”.
If a person WANTS to see Hubbard’s goals and intentions leading to the invention of Dianetics & scientoloy, study his affirmations http://www.lermanet.com/reference/Admissions.pdf
An understanding of this document will allow you to look into his mind and intentions.
Hi Marildi. I didn’t mean to infer that you had taken LRH’s quote as fact or literal. I spoke for myself only and understood that you were trying to make a particular point about the early writings of LRH. My interest was piqued by Beryl’s comment about the intention to form a cult. Something that I hadn’t really considered much before. When I read the quote I thought of how LRH wrote that in reference to how to study Scientology, yet ended it with being a ‘truly educated individual.’ To me, these are two different things and that is what I took some objection to. I don’t know what your beliefs are and I am not about to negate them either. Perhaps I should have clarified what I was thinking at the time of the post, so you wouldn’t think I was making a personal reference to you. I’m sorry for that. 🙂
Pepper: “When I read the quote I thought of how LRH wrote that in reference to how to study Scientology, yet ended it with being a ‘truly educated individual.’ ”
Oh – now I follow you. Your point is very well taken – especially since the article was originally titled “How to Study a Science.” That is so much more applicable and I fully understand your objection.
Somewhere along the line, the title got changed to “How to Study Scientology.” Possibly some know-best editor made the change – that would be my guess, because I think LRH would have seen the same outpoint you noted.
You also wrote: “Perhaps I should have clarified what I was thinking at the time of the post, so you wouldn’t think I was making a personal reference to you. I’m sorry for that.”
No need to apologize at all, Pepper. I wish everybody put forth their ideas as politely as you do! Thanks for the way you grant beingness. 🙂
TC – you are correct. Scientology IS a cult. Part of what keeps it going is the high ranking officials who leave take blood money and then sign gag orders. The justifications are far and wide. Scientology – it works when standard mind controlling tactics are used. The cult could not keep Mike Rinder or Marty Rathbun quiet. In my opinion – that is true integrity.
The high ranking ex officials refused the blood money and for that – my hats off to them both and anyone else who refused to be bought.
There is no excuse – absolutely NONE.
It could have saved a lot of lives from being destroyed if people refused to sign gag orders and take blood money.
START!
Thanks Idle Morgue ; I fully understand your point.
ML
TC
Theta Clear, you nailed it.
Thanks ! :-)))
Theta Clear, I think you got it right the first time. I recently reread DMSMH and I think lrh was thinking cult fight from the beginning.
There is lots of truth and useful knowledge speckled throughout the mind control cult of Scientology.
Thanks GoodPeople ,
I very much agree with you ; Scn has a lot of truths speckled throughout.
To add my ¢2 cents to Mike’s comment , I don’t see any evidence that Scientology’s truths (the many It does possesses) had entered into society’s psyche to any noticeable degree.
Having said that , I think that one of the reasons why Scn is so, let’s just call it , “addictive”, is because it DOES possesses many basic truths.
Others cults through history have disappeared in a relatively short time. The reason for this is that their “ideals” and the principles upon which they were based , were not basic truth ; it was all a big alter-is of the basic laws of life. That’s why they all were so easily defeated.
For a subject to trap others so insidiously it MUST contain basic truths , otherwise the attention units doesn’t get so effectively stuck.
Any subject that possesses basic truths as well as fallacies becomes the perfect trap, as truth is inherent in all of us ; we naturally seek it.
That’s why Scn is the perfect cult ; because it DOES compiled some, actually many , natural laws as regards to the workings of life. Whether LRH actually discovered , or mostly compiled them is beyond the point.
There is a LOT of truth , for example , in :
1. The concept of ARC , and how A ,R , and C relate to each other. That principle just by itself is capable of handling a lot of things is properly used and understood.
2. The comm formula, and the drilling of its parts (TRs). Very useful indeed.
3. The concept of the overt/withhold mechanism , and the consequences resulting from it. Being dishonest with your fellow beings will get us to fail in life every time. Just by fully understanding that mechanism , many lives can be improved , including our own life.
4. The concept of sanity as related to being in “Present Time”. Objectives processes DO help a lot, and in fact have been used by many past effectives therapies. Continuously contacting our surroundings, and willingly so, frequently pull the individual away from being fixed and stuck at past experiences. Touching things is therapeutic, and is used in many ways by others.
5. The concept of how recorded past traumatic experiences can get instantly triggered by present time stimulus , and make an individual behave in aberrated and a non self-determined way. The concept of the engram. Many war veterans are helped and healed through that concept.
Whether we want to call it “Reactive Mind” , “The Unconscious” , “The Dark side of Man” , etc, etc ; is another issue entirely. Can anyone really deny that such a mechanism DO exist ? Not if one is a competent observer.
6. The concept of the workability of the “one-to-one” therapy, where a therapist listen, w/out evaluation or invalidation , but mostly allow the patient to discover things for himself.
7. The use of a electro-psychometer to aid the therapist to locate areas of mental and spiritual distress. That has great advantages and phenomenal uses.
8. The concept of how misunderstood works block understanding and might even hinder ability in a subject. The concept of how by having a command of words and grammar , it can greatly help us to understand others and improve our communication level.
9. The concept of “Placing the hands” type of techniques as an aid to speed recovery. Assist, specially the basic ones, does help recover.
10. The basic concept of “Ethics” w/out all the bull-shit added to it. The concept that one goes through conditions in life that can be understood and handled, w/out having to leave it to “chance”. The concept that one can be cause in any given situation, and that there is always a chance to turn your life around for the better.
11. The concept of controlling production through Stats, and having a way to better assess how well or bad something or someone is doing.
12. The concept of the existence of the “Service Fac” , and how it actually bars observation and confront in any given area with the ensuing incapacity to act upon it.
Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. I can probably write a hundred more of those.
Nothing, absolutely nothing that has so much power to trap others can be made up of just untruths and lies. If it were, it would not have lasted this long, in spite of big battles with all kinds of governments, including the mighty USA government, and powerful organizations like the Word Psychiatry Association and the AMA (American Medical Association). The reason it lasted (besides being very well funded) is that it is composed of several basic truths, and many lies as well. But I would dare says it has more truths than it has lies.
The faster one understand all of this, the more prepared one will be to fight the real battle : The battle in the mind, cause that is what all of this is about. DM is not necessarily the target to address, but the individual himself, and his tendency to become cult(ish) about knowledge. By concentrating on the individual himself and his rehabilitation as a thinking entity ; by teaching him how to evaluate things, and to think for himself, how to seek his own judgment of things ; no cult leader can possibly trap him ever again.
But just telling him things like “Scn doesn’t really works” , “Engrams do not exists” , “Past lives are unreal” , “Auditing doesn’t work” , etc, etc, ; one is only going to make him hold on to it even more just to prove one wrong, because those individuals HAVE experienced those things, otherwise they wouldn’t have stayed that long in the first place.
My ¢2 cents.
Best regards,
TC
Bravo dear Theta clear, bravo!
Thanks dear Sheeplebane ; most kind.
Long time no see. I hope everything is excellent with life and family. Take care my friend.
ML
TC
Guess what, Peter? This isn’t the South African blog. Bullshit like that isn’t going to go unchallenged.
The e-meter a Scientology “truth”? It’s a wheatstone bridge. It measures electrical resistivity. Nothing more.
M/Us might be a block, but a solid education in a school system produces far better results than asinine, insulting Study Tech.
Controlling production through stats? W. Edwards Deming and Walter Shewart were doing that back in the 1920s. I know this because I’m a Certified Quality Auditor, and we’re required to know the history of Statistical Process Control. You putting L. Fraud Flunk-Out on the level of Deming and Shewart makes me want to pound you into a fine red mist.
Wars against the Psychs and the AMA? You’re still buying that bullshit? There were never wars. Face facts: In the late 50s and early 60s, Scientology was technically practicing medicine without a license thanks to the e-meter and touch assists. It was RIGHT that the AMA complained to the FDA, and the FDA went down on them.
How is it that you and Sheeplebane can seem so intelligent at the SA blog, then come here and turn into utter spudheads?
Dear Espiando,
I normally don’t have much tolerance for amateurs , but I’ll make an exception with you. So I’ll try to go as slow as I can here, and may be you’ll duplicate my posts before attempting to “challenge” me.
This class is free, but next one is going to cost you.
Since obviously you have no clue what professional debating is all about, I’ll do the right thing, and enlighten you.
First rule of debating : It ISN’T personal. Never take anything personal in debating or your judgment will get clouded , and you will lose perspective. Misemotion and anger has no place in correct debating.
Second rule of debating : Never underestimate your “opponent” , just never do. Most usually the best debaters are quiet individuals who look very nerdy.
Third rule of debating : Make VERY, VERY sure that you actually duplicated what your opponent asserted ; his basic argument. Otherwise, you’ll be argumenting againstyour “own ideas” and will look like a fool.
Fourth rule of debating : Do your homework, don’t be lazy. Understand the main argument of your opponent, his basic premise. Then fully research that point, and look for weak points, for “out-points” in his anlysis. Don’tjust play the “KnowBest”.
Fith rule of debating : Never argument about valid points, just leave them alone. Points that you know that most intelligent people will support, don’t touch them. Just concentrate on the weak points.
Let’s see how many of those rules you violated , shall we ?
In the first place you took my comments personally. You personally attacked your opponent. I mean, I am sure that Rinder has publicly warned you at least 3x in the last 2-3 threads. The most tolerant moderator apparently has some difficulty putting up with your shit.
In the second place, obviously you think that I am one of those fundamentalist robotized Scientologist, and apparently can’t duplicate that I have actually attacked Scn and LRH a lot more than I have defended them. You lackenough observation torealize that I am not even a Scientologist at all, even though that I DO use it in many areas of my life. One thing doesn’t contradict the other. In short,you are makingthe terrible mistake of underestimating a mind like mine.
In the third place, you apparently DIDN’T duplicate my post , but made the gross mistake to ASSUME things, something you never do in debating.
In the fourth place, you didn’t do your homework. You just reacted.
And in the fith place you decided to argument about valid points. Have you realized that so far you are the only one to argument against that post of mine ? I mean this blog if full of ex-Scientologists, and yet not one of them went against my post. Why do you think that is ?
As to your comment regarding the SA blog, you seems to know a lot about me and my posts. Gee, you even remembered my name, and I have not included it here at my posts at Rinder’s. According to your own comments “Sheeplebane and I seems very intelligent at the SA blog”. Now, in order to make such an assertion you must have been following our posts. Don’t you find it rather odd that someone who thinks that I am full of shit, is actually studying and examining my posts ?
And let’s analyze your so called “challenge” to my assertions. First “challenge” :
“The e-meter a Scientology “truth”? It’s a wheatstone bridge. It measures electrical resistivity. Nothing more.”
Now, ANY student of Physcis or engineering (I studied BOTH) knows that the “Wheatstone Bridge” was designed around 1843. And no, it don’t measure electrical resistance per se but CHANGES in resistence, quite a different thing.
Now I never said the LRH invented the “Electro-psychometer” ; I only said that he was one of the first ones (not actually the first one) to use it in therapy. One thing is to use a Wheatstone Bridge as a sensitive device to measure changes in temperature, humidity, preassure, etc ; and one entirely different thing is to use it, and actually MODIFY it, to measure the changes in body resistence. And then to study in detail how those changes in resistence could be interpreted in the mental field, and can manifest themselves as different needle behavior. And that is and WAS entirely a Scn endeavor.
Next “challenge” of yours :
“M/Us might be a block, but a solid education in a school system produces far better results than asinine, insulting Study Tech.”
A “solid school education” is nothing if words are not correctly understood. The Stats (and you claim to be a “Stats expert”) of “number of well educated children” at the USA and many other countries, has been in a continuous decline. Go and research it yourself. If “solid education” were the “solution” , then all the incredible good teachers (most of them are individuals that DO want to improve our children’s education) who daily bust their asses would have already changed for the better our education system. Clearly there is something missing here.
As to … “producing better results than the assinine insulting Study Tech” , show me the Stats, Mr. “Stats expert”. The reality is that the students that do succeed, clear their words, and have “mass” one way or the other about what they are studying about. A “good” education w/out really understanding the correct meaning of words , and having a conceptual understanding about how something works, is no education at all.
Next “challange” : “Controlling production through stats? W. Edwards Deming and Walter Shewart were doing that back in the 1920s. I know this because I’m a Certified Quality Auditor, and we’re required to know the history of Statistical Process Control. You putting L. Fraud Flunk-Out on the level of Deming and Shewart makes me want to pound you into a fine red mist.”
Relax would you? You are going to have a heart attack. Go take a walk, and come back.
I never said that LRH “invented” the use of Stats, for Christ sakes! ; I only commented that the subject of Stats is seldom used except for big corporations , and only yearly at the most, and by Scientists to make accurate measurements (including social studies). But using Stats weekly and even daily to measure and control production in daily life and small activities is something that I had never seen before Scn. The fact of correctly defining the actual product to measure is also more clearly understood in Scn.
Next “challenge” : “Wars against the Psychs and the AMA? You’re stillbuying thatbullshit? There were never wars. Face facts: In the late 50s and early 60s, Scientology was technically practicing medicine without a license thanks to the e-meter and touch assists. It was RIGHT that the AMA complained to the FDA, and the FDA went down on them.”
Now, that IS an amateur comment indeed. “Placing the hands” and using an electronic device to help locate areas of spiritual and mental stress is not medicine AT ALL. And Scn WON the war. They just needed to make a clarification as regards to the E-meter not being a device to diagnose and/or cure any illness. That it only was used by the minister to locate areas of spiritual travail. The fact is that the CofS kept on using the E-meter to date w/out no further interference to amount to anything.
And I wasn’t making any comments as regards that War being justified or not. I only was making a point that Scn as an institution has been VERY difficult to defeat, an assertion which is a fact. Otherwise , we would even be having this comm cycle as this blog would probably not have existed in the first place.
And just who is the “sputhead” now , ah ?
Been a pleasure. :-)))
ML Peter
P.S. Go and see the movie “The Great Debaters” with Denzel Whashinton. Then practice in the mirror everyday. Then come and “challenge” me again. :-)))
You guys are wasting your breath (fingers?) but I don’t have the heart to trash what is clearly a big effort on your part. Not going to accept any response, you luck out with the last word. Totally arbitrary, but that’s just the way this cookie crumbles today.
Thanks for allowing the comment, Mike.
And that’s quite all right ; your moderation methods has nothing arbitrary about them, but are, in fact, the best that I’ve seen so far, and I have seen a lot.
Best regards ,
TC
And a great last word it was too! But I do understand Mike and support your moderator decision.
Booyah!
+1
Perfect ack, Cindy. 🙂
:-)))
KUDOS to TC — write that book. If nothing else you will get something out of it.
I’ve been putting together my book — my life, my pre-scientology life, my why-I-got-in life, my in life, my out life, my indie life and now ALMOST my I DON”T GIVE a damn about all of this anymore life. I say ALMOST cuz here I am — on this blog.
FIRST I had to sort out my THIS LT time track that was a jumbled mess due to early childhood trauma, compartmentalizing my life, heavy drug use from 1969-1970 – (psychedelics only) and then introduction to scientology and finally immersion into scientology and the sea org. And then leaving THE group I thought I would NEVER EVER leave. in 1980. But remained a public person until 1993.
Been sort out my life on 3×5 cards. Taking a FACT – verified by others in writing somewhere as to a date. Like — asking my lifetime girl friend — do you know when you got married? (duh) — cause there I was with others as a bridge maid. I found a picture of all of us. A new FACT.
ANYWAY — at one point I wanted to write a book for revenge. Aha — I’ll show them.
And then a book as a confession.
And then a book to BECOME well known. Ride that scientology wave of celebrity — having known my fair share.
And now I just want to someday soon — just say —
Peace brothers and sisters. May each find some joy in our lives and embrace those who have brought so much to our lives. Our family. Our friends. Our acquaintances and even our enemies. (it’s the enemies or perceived enemies who make us STRETCH to learn and understand).
As for Idle Morgue — in answer to Roger Hornaday. It’s fine with me if he rants and raves all day long. It’s just painful to watch and hear for me. Perhaps not for others. I’m only speaking for me.
I was an Sea Org member who refused ORDERS to declare someone while on a comm ev. The now living dead Greg Wilhere was on that comm ev and he … eventually agreed with me. That non-declared person is still IN scientology — a former Class XII and actually quite a F**d up guy in the end. But hey — he didn’t deserve to be declared.
I was high enough at one point and did very little to HARM others — why? Cause I knew I couldn’t run a lemonade stand so what right did I have to declare or take away the status of Mission Holders. I even went up against Jane Kember and that was absolutely terrifying.
ANYWAY — Debbie Cook is no saint. But with money — blood or otherwise she can heal her mind and body AND SHE CAN HELP OTHERS.
And I believe she will. I’m already sending her fibromyalgia/lyme etc book to others.
I feel we should all — atheist or NOT remember the old biblical saying —
THERE BY THE GRACE OF GOD, GO I
WIndhorse
Thanks Windhorsegallery ,
And well done in having kept your personal integrity about that unjust declare. If more people would have been willing to act based on their personal integrity , the cult would probably not have grown to become the big monster that it is today.
ML
TC
Just a note of caution when dealing with Hubbard’s hypnotized dupes while within striking distance.
Hubbard’s followers were programmed to hurt people at his command/directions.
“Never fear to hurt another in a just cause* ”
* a Just Cause will be defined by the slave master
Good point John Locke. The “Tech” gets others to hurt other’s in the name of “clearing the planet of insanity and criminality” while the Organization is insane and criminal hiding it from others. This is group thinking and homo sap mind control. It works when standardly applied. I too refused to hurt anyone whilst “in”. I attributed it to the fact that I had a life prior to Scientology – something to compare it to. I may have hurt others if they had got me in when I was young. I wonder if there was anyone at the top who refused to hurt others and escaped to tell? I do understand most are forced to hurt others and they believe they are helping. All is forgiven too. I just don’t think we should put those like Debbie Cook on a pedestal when she got MONEY – lots of money and others don’t get anything. She should have sent her e-mail – it was the right thing to do. Now – I say if you got money from the cult, give it to those who need it – like poor Sea Orger’s who have nothing when they leave. That would be making up the damage, IMHO!
Idle Morgue, there are people who were at Int who refused to dump on others. I was kicked out of Int and sent to Pac by Rick A. for refusing to send a person to the RPF and write a declare on him.
I would never lionize Debbie or Wayne for what they did. I WILL acknowledge their efforts to expose the criminality though. It is a GOOD thing. I cannot say if they have made restitution for their “sins”. I lack enough information to even make a guess
Idle Morgue —
My dream would be for the 2 billion (supposed bank account of current church) to be distributed to those who gave years to the Sea Org. Divide it up by years. Then those who financed the operation. Etc.
Then all the buildings sold and that money distributed. And guess what. In the end no one will get much — just like class action suits where the peeps get $5,000 and the lawyers live fat for the rest of their lives and the lives of their children for generations.
Personally I find it difficult to read your posts as your anger and unwillingness to shift ONE TEENY TINY bit is somewhat indicative of a person with a mind cemented in one direction only.
Currently the Broadway musical Amazing Grace is touching hearts and minds.
A story of the REDEMPTION of John Newton — a rich and powerful slave trader in late 1700’s — (BTW a TRUE story. John Newton existed, books are written about him but mainly from his own diaries)
SLAVES — he traded and was rich on what built this country and other countries. SLAVES. Human beings bought and sold.
And at some point — he changed. COMPLETELY.
Until you can somehow find it IN YOURSELF to forgive Debbie Cook and others I’m not sure how you will ever find a moment of peace.
And not sure how you can sleep at night with all the anger and vitriol in your mind. I cannot imagine it calms down much at night nor in your dreams.
OH — and BTW — Debbie Cook was never my favorite person. I was in the SO when she first arrived and later public. Never did I find her warm and fuzzy AT ALL. As far as I could tell, she was a powerful climber to the top and did so by staying up close and very personal to the public mover and shakers UNTIL she fell.
HOWEVER she deserves to find HER way in life.
She owes none of us anything.
AND OH BY THE WAY —– WHAT is going to happen to your feelings about Marty IF HIS WIFE wins her lawsuit? Will you then pivot and call the Rathbuns out? And oh what happens IF somehow someway Mike earns some money — then what?
Seriously Idle Morgue — you are really only hurting yourself.
But then this is not ever anything you will see. Hate never dispelled hate. EVER.
I feel for you. I honestly do.
Windhorse
Windhorse, I like Idle Morgue’s ranting because it’s a refreshing antidote to all this hero worshipping adulation of Debbie Cook. She had a lot to answer for and I don’t think she’s one iota more brave than most people on this blog. She got herself into some deep shit as many of us do in this life, and the consequences of it were unpleasant. Is she a better person now? I don’t know nor do I care, it’s none of my business. She did the right thing by writing that devastating email. She was in serious need of righting some of the wrongs she forcefully facilitated and she’s lucky to have had the means to do so.
Hi windhorsegallery, Your post held truth & insightful observation.I think each one of us who was ever touched in anyway either for a minute or forever,by Ron/David/COS,will have their own very personal journey in and out.In my case,I personally did not want money from the cult,my intention then was to document what had happened to me,in hopes it would help others in similar situations.I did not know Debbie or Wayne,but we are all connected having been SO Staff Public and in.Having been here for awhile,I love the fact that Mike lets us post freely.And when he does post,he does so with skill humor & a desire to help,considering how long he was in,it is amazing.My thought was there are really strong opinions here regarding pros/cons as to Indies,Ron,Cos,etc.Which is natural with the incredible bloggers here.I read here because you all give me a window to a place where I can really be me,& learn along the way.And our postings are very powerful they go in all directions.Anyway I look forward to all postings Thank you Ann.
“Seriously Idle Morgue — you are really only hurting yourself…Hate never dispelled hate. EVER.
Good post, Windhorse. I feel similarly, with regard to hate posts in general. Idle Morgue’s aren’t even the most hateful.
Debbie and her husband were warriors. I am glad the Church is now leaving them alone.
People that were at the top of Scientology have a unique opportunity – some get the opportunity to get paid off in exchange for silence. The “buy out” Gag Order. This is one of many tactics Scientology uses to keep members silenced and others from knowing what happened within the criminal organization. The ones at the bottom (has nothing to do with anything except luck or misfortune) never have a chance to get money back or reimbursed for the years of service (working as a slave) or even have the resources to get proper help once they leave. They typically get NOTHING. They are left alone and shattered. Let’s not forget those people – they are reduced to nothing and have no admiration from others, no money, no home or life to build on. They are not celebrities and worshiped by others who have left.
This is an interesting phenomena. Homo Sap, which will never change.
Very good point, Idle Morgue.
There’s a reason why you go UP a Bridge in Scientology (rather than across) and why there are ranks in the Sea Org, and why people like Mike Rinder, Claire Headley, Marty Rathbun and Debbie Cook achieved hero status for all the “brave work” that they’ve done to “expose Scientology”.
This is, of course, after decades of creating and forwarding ALL of the deception and abuse that it has ever dished out to anyone since the mid-1980s from Int Base.
Scientology is an elitist cult which believes and coercively enforces that its “leaders” should never be criticized, or their failures discussed. Scientology plays on and exploits the hierarchical tendencies in human beings and has as its central monolith a Bridge to Total Status.
Mike Rinder, Claire Headley, Marty Rathbun, Debbie Cook and all the other Int Base Escapees are in completely impossible positions, having to explain the inexplicable to people they have harmed in the past. They sometimes have to defend each other against all the unimportant people they have harmed, and justify and re-justify why their hero status is valid.
The thing is that in each case of the people above, hero status is arguably genuine: Anyone who simply did not walk away from Scientology, and who saw it as their duty to a free society to warn the public about Scientology, and who did so despite sometimes ruinous conditions to their own lives, IS a hero.
Some scientologists were confronted with OSA criminality and abuse and stayed away because of it. Some scientologists saw how fascistic the Sea Org was and did not participate in it. Some Scientologists realized very quickly that Int Base was ground central for the crazy in Scientology and got themselves the hell out ASAP. Others stayed and rose to the top of the heap, and dished out all the criminality and abuse they could to anyone they could, and then only after it was turned around on them did they personally blow.
Thus, Scientology was a test of our character.
And some of those who failed that test had a chance to re-take it, and have since passed with flying colors.
Debbie Cook still has more to do. And she deserves both the criticism and the praise that she gets.
We all do.
Alanzo
I agree with you Alanzo – well stated!
Debbie Cook has more to do – as long as there are people from the Sea Org suffering after escaping and leaving – she should be helping them. Especially if she has “healed” after 3 years of having money and a nice vacation abroad.
Mike Rinder did not get blood money, neither did Marty Rathbun and they have done a lot to help others.
I don’t know how she can live with herself.
Debbie Cook needs to step up to the plate and make up the damage until she dies.
30 years of perpetuating the criminal acts of Scientology is not corrected by one e-mail and some depositions – especially if she took blood money from families devastated by the Registrars from the Mecca of the Flag Fraud Scam Base in exchange to KEEP SCIENTOLOGY WORKING.
That was beautifully put.
I don’t know Debbie Cook. To me, the most significant question (in regards to what it says about what shape so many beings are in after decades in Scientology) is why she ALLOWED herself to stand in garbage with that sign around her neck. Yes, of course, I know all the answers that are standardly given as to the general group suppression and years of mental conditioning. But the bottom line was that Ms. Cook in whatever way it was accomplished, went into agreement with her tormenters. But unlike most prisoners of war, she was ALSO WAS ONE OF THE BIG DOGS HERSELF before her own imprisonment. I cannot believe that in seventeen years of being the CO of the FSO, she did not witness countless disgusting acts and crimes committed on both staff and public, by Miscavige and his henchboys and girls. And remained silent and continued to collect her commissions and hold her high status.
Yes, she wound up sick and suppressed as a being. I don’t write this to make her wrong or make less of her. She does indeed sound like a very nice person and someone who did eventually do the right thing. I’m just pointing out again that it is all of the people who contribute to Miscavige’s evil who bear a large part of the responsibility for the overall scene, whether they commit the acts directly themselves or simply remain silent for decades as they watch them done. (and yes, this applies to all current veteran Scientologists, public or staff who not only say nothing about what is directly in front of their eyes, but indeed blind themselves mentally and have somehow convinced themselves something ELSE is happening, so that they don’t have to confront or act on the scams, the disconnections, etc)
This is the perfect example of why I made the point about walking in someone else’s shoes. I don’t think you will ever understand, and perhaps you are better off because you don’t. Obviously at the time she didnt think she had the option to leave. You are sure she did, and it was simply a matter of a bad decision. Its why Going Clear is called the Prison of Belief.
I believe “Going Clear” the documentary and the book couldn’t even begin to touch on the reality of what it means to be in THAT prison.
Scientology unlike other cult prisons teaches arrogance, lack of sympathy, extreme UBER intelligence (homo novis, remember?) —
Other cult prisons teach subservience to their master (think all those incredibly abused women and children of that monster predator Warren Jeffs), or the Moonies …
Scientologists LOOK normal (unlike Hari Krishnas in saffron robes) — you cannot TELL if you are talking to a scieftologist or if they have infiltrated your group/your church, your business, anything.
Clever very clever as they work to quietly or loudly SAVE THE WORLD.
I cringe daily at my arrogance … I weep almost daily at how I ignored my parents for 8 years — much less 17 or 20 or 30 …
And everyday I try HARD to just be a kinder person. One who does NOT have to save the world but perhaps is capable of helping 1 or 2 people, in my neighborhood.
Humility is NOT something scientology teaches yet without genuine humility how in the world can one ever self-reflect? Which IS the very thing that separates a human being – a sentient being FROM other sentient beings (dogs, cats, vipers, spiders) … WE as human being CAN self-reflect. I don’t think other sentient beings have that LUXURY OR that burden.
And remember — EVERYONE has an agenda. Of some sort. Debbie Cook as the Captain and Debbie Cook as the writer of books not connected to scientology. AND to say her agenda in either place was 100% good or 100% bad is simply being a fundamentalist.
NO ONE is 100% anything.
As far as I can tell. I try to become more accepting of the human condition – my human condition – which is as we all know …
Deeply flawed AND deeply perfect.
WIndhorse
Mike, you’re right about my not walking in Debbie Cook’s shoes and my not TRULY understanding what she went through on her journey. But you’re also right about “the prison of belief” and isn’t that the real point here? I’m reading “Nixonland” right now and a prison of belief in their own government and military resulted in millions of Americans supporting mass murder of men, women and children in SE Asia for over a decade even when the facts were well publicized. (And yes, I could mention much worse prisons of belief and the populations that supported Hitler, Stalin and groups like we see today such as the Taliban). Though I have to mention that not EVERYONE during these times went into agreement.
I’m not condemming Debbie or Heber or anyone else. I guess I’m still severely disappointed about my own postulate that I had joined a group that prided itself on courage, confront and truth. Debbie Cook is not clean in this regard, but I do realize that neither am I. I guess we’re both doing what we can in PT to move on to a better life and not get stuck in the past. No sane reason at all to wallow in one’s past.
Joe said, “To me, the most significant question (in regards to what it says about what shape so many beings are in after decades in Scientology) is why she ALLOWED herself to stand in garbage with that sign around her neck.”
Maybe I can answer by asking you a question or two. Did you pay for and do any OT levels (did you “go clear” and pay for services afterwards?) If so pls detail.
There are two parts to the equation: I scrubbed out a dumpster before because I was “C.I.” as a staff member. Now, while scrubbing I asked myself, “How am I “CI” when I work 14 hours a day for no pay?” That answered THAT question for me. But, I was duped so that is why I did it the first and only time.
The second part of the equation is that I REFUSED to inflict that crap on others. I would covertly change such orders and NEVER forwarded them. That is more a matter of bravery and/or compassion for others. Some people have it more than others. Just as some are harder to dupe than others. I was easier to dupe than many humans.
“The second part of the equation is that I REFUSED to inflict that crap on others. I would covertly change such orders and NEVER forwarded them”.
It may be too late for you to get this comment but I hope you do, John Locke.
Handling what you knew to be cruel and suppressive orders as you did was very compassionate, and very brave of you.
I feel like I want to acknowledge what it took for you to do this, and to thank you.
Joe, you probably question why abused women stay in their marriages too. If you were in scientology at all, I can’t understand how you can question this, honestly.
Someone once asked me why I stayed, and the answer i gave, the best and only answer I still have is they mess with your mind.
If your mind believes you are a prisoner, your body is unable to act to free you. It’s as simple as that. Scientology continued to keep me imprisoned and afraid of them for a lot of years after I escaped.
If you’ve done any reading about the Nazi concentration camps Capos and other victims who did what was demanded of them you might understand Debbie Cook’s inability to stand up for herself, and recognize it as the result of dehumanization .
The idea sounded good: A group of OTs working together to forward the spiritual philosophy and applied spiritual technology of Scientology.
Besides attracting a lot of pure-hearted, caring, and dedicated people to its ranks, it also attracted a goodly number who were more interested in personal prestige, power, and control over others for its own sake.
The latter gradually came to control the organization until these days when the Sea Org does not itself practice standard Scientology. It has created a destructive cult which can destroy lives.
Creating the Sea Org might have been L. Ron Hubbard’s greatest mistake.
How best to avoid being abused in the Sea Org?
…..As Mr. Miyagi famously said in the Karate Kid movie,
“Best defense is don’t be there”
“it also attracted a goodly number who were more interested in personal prestige, power, and control over others for its own sake. The latter gradually came to control the organization ”
From DAY ONE the orgs were controlled by a psychopath more interested in personal prestige, power, money and control over others for its own sake. You should study up more about Hubbard, the violent felon who spent his energy amassing a fortune in illegal cash, gems & gold
I have studied a lot of Hubbard. Good and bad. The some of the bad was very bad, but the good far outweighs the bad. We seem to disagree on that.
Ah, but you never miss an opportunity to kick a man in the face when he is down with name calling and sarcasm do you?
Are you willing to be judged by YOUR worst products?
What are the good products that YOU have produced in this lifetime which have enhanced people’s lives? I’m listening. Schlocke? Schlocke??
Espiritu, I know John is more than capable of answering your criticism of his attitude.
I simply want to point out that Ron Hubbard isn’t a man who is “down”. He is dead and is no longer a man but an idea. Also, it isn’t necessary to have done anything good in order to criticize the doings of another. But be that as it may, I am intrigued by what you think is good about what Hubbard brought to the table in the way of human knowledge. I don’t want to abuse this blog so if you like, you may email me at:
roger.hornaday@gmail. This is a friendly invitation in the sense that I don’t have hostile intentions.
LMAO Espiritu. Yes, I’m willing to be judged by my worst products. El Con built a cult that destroyed countless lives. He was a serial, violent felon. He ended up insane and dead (his own product). I have built an international business that employed many hundreds with high salary while protecting clients assets. I NEVER committed any felonies. Much less violent.
Keep digging yourself deeper into the El Con apologist pit though. It is a good warning for people.
p.s. – I don’t kick violent felons when they are down. I shoot them so they can’t get back up again.
You are both shouting across the chasm. Not going to waste any more time with this.
Holy mother of Zemu this was shocking to read. Once again the evil is worse than I casually thought.
However, I always thought part of the problem with Scientology is actually a problem with the social/legal system that so often comes down on THEIR side, and allows them to perpetuate their evils with no end in sight.
They may be an inevitable parasite. It may take an actual revolution to stop them.
Thank you, Mike, for this terrifically well written article on the back story as re Debbie Cook. That email of hers was a lightning bolt. She struck the cult a severe blow from which it has not and will not recover. I have nothing but admiration for her. And I’m buying her book.
For us with the mindset we had at the time, Debbie wrote her email like a true Scientologist (what the spirit of it was that I originally joined for and stayed in so long for), and confirmed with policies what we were seeing in the Church. That fully got us going opening Pandora’s box. And what a deep bottom this box has! Thank you Mike for filling in the gaps, and Debbie, you and Wayne deserve all the good things in your life.
Thanks Mike. Excellent summary and views. I couldn’t agree with you more. Especially and particularly this statement:
“If you have never been in the position of confronting the scientology litigation and intimidation/investigation machinery, I really don’t believe you could understand what it is like.”
I wish more people would consider that statement in depth before coming to a snap judgement either way.
I also don’t think it is easy for someone to understand just how quickly you are “right back there” when being dragged through depositions in front of 10 or more OSA and RTC staff, lawyers, live stream video etc etc. Absolutely brutal. To me it was how I imagine I would have felt and worse, had I ever been recovered, which I was not.
My hat is off to Debbie for what she accomplished.
Claire, you’ve said it! As both you & Mark, who have experienced the horror too, who, without having been exposed to / put through such total mind overwhelm and paralysis, could possibly understand?
The world at large, including the poor COBfodder, still languishing in their deluded state of disbelief, will be completely shocked and horrified, when the ‘religious’ CLOAK is finally, forceably yanked from it’s heavily guarded PR exterior of this.
The wonderful, brave work, done by yourself, Mike, Marty, Tony, Alex Gibney and so many others have, unfortunately, only just ‘touched’ on the horrors, in terms of exposure IMHO.
The grand scale exposure, is yet to come.
Hi Claire Headley,I am very pleased to meet you.Thank you for your sensitive & perceptive post.I did not experience the court room dance that Debbie & Wayne did because I decided after my years getting dragged around physically & mentally by The Guardians Office Itelligence,facing all those lovely beings in court was too much of a good thing.No matter what the opinion of Debbie & Wayne’s saga,they went through the whole legal trip and I do thank them.It takes guts to put up with the junk cos legal throws out.If I had been stronger in my true feelings about cos in 79-80 I would have continued my suit,but for me the time was not right.I still had not had the huge cognition not until a few months ago that Ron never wrote all the letters he said he did to me in the SO.Once I got that straight my recall and determination to keep on after cos went through the roof.I wish you & yours all light & love,Ann.
Nice to meet you too Ann! And thank you.
Personally I think one (not you, just a statement in general) would be naive to consider that Debbie’s settlement, or continued pursuit of her case and exposure of her knowledge, would singularly have changed the outcome or current status or scientology’s corrupt organization.
As Marc has often put it, if you had a billion dollars, how much would you spend to protect that empire?
And from another perspective, what about the decades of her life Debbie already lost to service in the Sea Org?
No single person holds the “keys to the kingdom” in scientology except Miscavige.
People might think that Debbie has a wealth of knowledge. My guess would be she has snippets that do not make up an overall actionable picture, especially not when that scam is being defended by multi-million dollar law firms, who would drag out any case for decades without even blinking.
All things are relative.
We each do what we can to expose the bs and make up for our respective involvement in that disastrous, mind numbing zombie-land known as the sea org.
But we also have to do what’s right for our health, peace of mind, and putting the pieces back together again some how, some way.
When my time comes, I’d like to know I was able to create better and brighter memories than my years in the sea org.
Just saying…
Hi Claire Headley, Thank you your post is tremendous.In the time I have left here,the making of memories other than The Sea Org is heaven! Being free means so much now.Always Ann.
Fortunately, I was never a target for a lawsuit and somehow dodged most of the horrific stuff the church throws at those who have left.
I can say — now having studied IN DEPTH Post Traumatic Stress Disorder Claire’s statement “just how quickly you are ‘right back there’ ” … says a great deal.
Scientology cannot be understood in my opinion without LEARNING more about the mind.
I mean — duh — isn’t scientology purported to know THE MIND? (in other words — understanding EXACTLY how F***up it is and what it DOES to our minds and bodies)
And learning about the mind can be from numerous sources For starters I would try learning what MODERN scientists have learned through fMRI machines watching the brain light up when certain images or words are spoken …
OH — THAT brain — that Hubbard said was merely a switchboard …
It’s time that those of us who are NOT IN scientology anymore OR who are trying to expose the crimes of the machine called scientology OR those on the side lines OR those who just get their morning juicy bits of gossip …
LEARN that second generation Sea Org members or those who left but still “scientologists” — will cut OUT of their lives parents, friends, sisters, and brothers who MIGHT be dying because THEY (those in, KNOW IT ALL — and yet know very very little).
Compassion and love are not something one develops IN scientology. That comes from hard work of disentangling oneself from the mind-f*** of scientology.
Anyway — it’s too early for me to start ranting.
BUT a friend recently died and his daughter couldn’t even call to say — I love you.
Now SHE is going to become more firmly and deeply entrenched into this CULT OF hatred because HOW can she ever possibly LOOK at how she was incapable of calling her dying father and bringing just a bit of love from her into last day.
She won’t. And if she started to look her seniors will MAKE SURE she won’t.
Love,
Windhorse
Hi Windhorsegallery, Your post breaks my heart.This is why I come to this blog everyday.If somehow one still in sees some thread here that makes them look around at the very least then I want that to happen.What a great observation “compassion & love come from disentangling oneself from the mindf__ that is cos” Yes the KoolAid goes so deep that when my time comes to depart if any of the old old crowd are still in,they will throw a party that I’m not here anymore.That will only make me more determined to expose this cult for what it is.My Best Always Ann.
Claire,
I can’t imagine the strength it took to sit in the middle of the bus depot and threaten to scream if anyone touched you. I’m so glad you were never recovered, and glad I wasn’t either.
Just talking to someone “put me right back there” so going to a deposition would probably crumble me. You are a tower of strength.
Excellent back story today Mike, thank you for this.
Another well aimed salvo, Mike. Bravo. The lurching, foot-bullet riddled, monster CO$, is ls seriously leaking $$$$$ from it’s DMented carca$$.! — And at a rate that saw the collapse of LRH’s efforts in the early 50’s.
Soon, the support ‘whales’, will pick up the putrid smell of gangrene emanating from the badly wounded ‘mon$ter’, and head off in search of ‘healthier’ waters. That, or they will end up beached, and high and dry themselves.
What an excruciatingly painful, sordid, dragged out manner in which to stage one’s exit from ‘grace’, huh?.
But nothing, NOTHING, will quite prepare the world for what it sees, when ‘mon$ter finally collapses in a swarm of flies and maggots, spilling from it’s putrid guts. The clean up people will have to use protective clothing and gas masks, that’s for sure.
This of course, ensues after the army of mind-numbed protection lawyers have similarly dwindled into insignificant numbers! It will then happen that the CLOAK of ‘religion’ will finally be unceremoniously yanked from the carca$$, to expose the unprecedented degree of ugliness and horror concealed within!
ARRRRRRRRRGGGGHHHHH!
Hey Calvin…along with racing I guess some acid has made its way into the blood as well! I feel ya though!
Hey K 🙂 Magic to touch basis again. Yep, the collapse is nigh. Painfully slow, but then again, agony seems to be in the nature of the beast! 🙂
Debbie Cook is a hero. Without getting all theetie-weetie about it, she is truly a being of tremendous power and Miscavige underestimated that. I hope she and her husband are doing well. The rest of us can carry on the fight, what she revealed was enough to corroborate what all the “SP’s” (Mike, Marty, etc) have been saying all along as detailed in the Truth Rundown. Still the sheep turn a blind eye, but not all of them. I wonder how many left as a result or how many are in the ranks of the church yet are sympathizers for the ousted execs. Anyway, the war is not over. But it’s interesting. Someone needs to pull some strings on WHY the gov’t is doing jack and sh*t about Scientology despite all the evidence.
Hi Michael Winters,Good to meet you.I have always wondered why the gov’t is not pulling strings to get the unvarnished truth about cos.The only thought I had,was that this “religious cloaking”renders any brains in gov’t incapable of confronting anything that purports to be a religion.Ron was smart about that!In my old SO days there was always some telex ranting about evading the IRS & Justice Dept.David got all he wanted with tax exemption too.Thank you for validating the power to do good that we all have within, it is how one spins that power that can make the difference for good or evil.My Best Always,Ann.
Mike, thanks for filling in the blanks on this story and for the help you gave Debbie & Wayne in their hour of need. Just as you have done for so many others, I convey my deepest gratitude for the unselfish help and support you have given so many (including me) in extricating themselves from the Co$ nightmare.
Debbie and Wayne have all my respect and I wish them the best. Hopefully someday I will get to shake their hands and enjoy their company.
Debbie Cook, Mike Rinder and the thoughtful people who post here reminded me of something. I have a friend still in Scientology who calls me every so often. He tells me that the church is so much friendlier, laid back and easier to deal with then it used to be. This is either a lie(quite possible) or it’s true. If it’s true, then it’s obvious to me the church is changing, because of the people like everyone here that refuse to participate in a supressive religion. This would certainly belie their OTness.
Thank you Mike for posting the truth about what happened regarding Debbie and Wayne leaving the church. She is a brave and caring person who kept her integrity. Thank you Debbie for all you have done to help pave the way for others to get out and regain their freedom. Love to you and Wayne!
Thank you Mike for this back story! I always knew that there was genuine goodness in Debbie and Wayne. Having dealt with the mean spirited Dwarf when he was only 14 years of age(before he joined staff), it has left a sour image of this ‘leader of co$’ before and ever since he took the reigns. Having been a staff member myself and knowing the rigors that staff duty can force on one, I was not at all surprised at the outcome that Debbie and Wayne were forced to find themselves in. The fact that they took money was, as you Mike so eloquently put it, “Settling was the only viable option.” It was survive or die at the hands of a despicable cult.
“At first, Debbie adamantly refused to even entertain the idea of settling. Marty and I convinced her to do so.” To me, this exhibited her true personal integrity, what Debbie Cook was really made of and why she was so loved by all her parishioners. I knew in my heart that there was more to the story and why, at the time, no one could know any more about it. What you have done here has filled a very needed vacuum.
I have a very close friend who had labelled Debbie a traitor in the most vehement fashion and who went ballistic whenever I mentioned her name. This friend also has enormous respect for you, Mike Rinder and your family, and I am hoping that your explanation will improve his view of things.
Mike , you have always been a valuable spokesperson in every arena you have found yourself in, and here I kneel to and salute your greatness(kneeling is not at all easy for me lol).
I wish you and your family well and thank Debbie and Wayne for the sacrifices they have made.
Hi Pericles, Good to meet you,thank you for your well stated post.Someone who knew David when…I only dealt with him through letters when he was11-13 maybe?I did not like his letters at all.Never mind the grammar aspect,he seemed to have a scowl at the world and anyone else’s viewpoint but his.I found dealing with him via mail a waste of time. Mean spirited is a perfect description of him.As I have posted I walked away from a big lawsuit against cos,I never wanted money but I did want the Truth about this cult to be dragged into the sunlight.However I got burned by my lawyer & when my divorced late parents started to get calls about me in 79-80, I knew that not continuing on the legal parade was the correct decision.Plus Mike’s Blog is the best place for me to post about my journey with SO & what life is like after for me.Mike is an incredible spokesperson and the light he generates shows us the path even in total darkness.Debbie & Wayne I did not know them back in ancient days,but they did what was right for them regarding a settlement.Apologising to those that may have been hurt by whatever went on in court,that is for them both to decide.I am just glad they got out!My Best Always Ann.
Dear Old Surfer Dude,
Your “What kind of church…” posting was so great! I hope you don’t mind (& I’m whacking myself on the he a d for not checking with you first) but I copied-n-pasted it on the Bunker, properly attributed (& then edited my post there to make authorship & source even clearer). If you want me to take it down, let me know and I’ll do it immediately.
MadisonKinSmed
I wish Debbie and Wayne the absolute best and good health.
I’ve read a great deal of her fibromyalgia book and as someone who suffered for YEARS and still gets flare ups when stress , lack of sleep and humidity hit — I am completely impressed by her research, her willingness to offer links. Seems to me, she’s done all the work and will be providing a huge service to people — who now manage fibromyalgia with pain meds and sleeping pills.
Neither of which was I ever willing to take. I suffered from this before it was even known — only a very few had even heard of it. 1998.
ALSO — Debbie has two other books and two other websites and ALL OF THEM seem just terrific.
May she and Wayne enjoy the happiness they deserve and fought for, free from suffering.
While I benefited — as I’ve said many times — from what scientology and dianetics offered — it came at far far too great a cost. And no longer, when asked, what I think about scn or LRH have anything good to say.
I am however unwilling to thrown down the gauntlet and speak out publicly – although asked many times.
We are the fortunate ones. We are alive. We are functioning.
Not everyone is so fortunate.
Thank you Mike for filling in the back story for many.
It’s always easy to criticize someone else. And if it’s done with enough conviction — we have the inevitable two sides, both acting in a fundamentalist fashion —- that can never reach across the aisle.
Best,
Windhorse
Thank you for this, Mike.
I have a question about a situation which I don’t get.
Debbie and Wayne were/are out of the USA. This supposedly as a stipulation of the settlement with the CoS. I heard several times that the CoS is demanding (stipulating) from former members that they move away, and in this case even out of the country – out of their OWN country. I find this OUTRAGES. I cannot understand that anybody would agree to such and follow such ‘instructions’.
If somebody has to leave a country or can stay, is in the JURISDICTION of the respective sovereign country. How the hell can a group like the CoS demand such and presume such a right, the right from a sovereign country?? Unthinkable in Europe. Do I miss something here?
The simple answer to this is that you can agree to give up ANY right that you inherently have. In the United States you have the right to freedom of speech. People willingly forgo that right all the time when they agree to be employed by a company that tells them they cannot disclose any proprietary information about the company. They are NOT allowed to talk about that because they agreed by signing the employment contract not to do so. You can also agree not to live in the United States or on board ship or within 3 miles of a zoo. I doubt Debbie and Wayne wanted to be anywhere near scientology when they parted company. Maybe they have a different view now. Maybe they only agreed to staying away for a certain period of time. Maybe they only agreed to not LIVE in the US but can visit. There are many ways to slice a cake.
Thanks, Mike, for making it even clearer.
In Eric Berne’s classic “Games People Play” this one is called Let’s You and Him FIght
Thank you Mike Rinder
For helping so much back channels.
I not only was a generous donor to the cause butquietly
did fund raising for her.
So I took it personally when she unfriended me on Facebook
after the monies gotten and her settlement.
But now I understand more. Thanks
Hi Karen#1, Debbie Cook might have been after my time in the SO as I don’t recall her but glad to read that she got out.You are a very bright light & your posts always give me another way to look at things.Thank you always Ann.
Great post Mike about my sis and the Waynester! I pretty much knew the whole story because I was there. But I also knew that everyone else was basically in mystery about what happened and hence a lot of them felt betrayed and upset that they settled. So I am just glad that the whole story came out and your did a great job in laying it all out. It took them 3 years to get their lives back after the settlement. I am just happy for them that they can now get on with living the rest of their lives to the fullest and also live in peace.
Randall – some of my family members were destroyed and never recovered from fleecing and mind fucking at FLAG. Nice to know Debbie and Wayne recovered only after 3 years. Yes – I am being a bit sarcastic. This is sickening. They got lots of OUR money to shut the fuck up. Why is that okay?
It’s not that it is “okay”, Idle Morgue, but after being brainwashed into contributing to the horror and destruction committed by Flag and the church for years, thinking that she was doing it for the “greater good”, after all the horrible mistakes she made, the point that Mike is making is that she had no other viable choice.
You don’t know Debbie now, you don’t know how she feels about what she did, and you don’t know what she thinks is “okay” and what is “not okay” either. If she has repented, you may never know that.
I don’t think anybody here is saying that it was “okay” to take the money and shut up, but being “okay” and being the only viable alternative she had, are two different concepts.
It sucks, but in dealing with the magnitude of evil that is the management of the Church of Scientology, the perfect choice may not have existed for Debbie to make.
Dear Idle Morgue,
I am really sorry for your family ; recovering from a cult is not an easy task. I think we all are victims here , to a lesser or greater degree, of a VERY destructive cult. In fact one of the most powerful, influential, and incredible financed cults of the 20-21th century.
Perhaps Debbie helped destroy many lives , as you say, while being the captain of the FSO ; but I am sure that she thought she was doing the right thing just as many of us thought when we were in command positions. A cult blind us, and separate us from reality. We become robots of “authority” , following a charismatic “god-like” leader, that we really believe is right about everything. We surrender our self-determinism , our judgment to that “leader” , and usually do a bunch of stupid things. I have done many myself.
The best remedy to heal our wounds is compassion and forgiveness. Only in forgiveness can any true peace and comfort be found. Only in being compassionate even to our enemies, any true happiness is found.
Debbie made up for a lot of any damage done by her by writing and sending out that e-mail. That e-mail sent almost a decade ago , still keeps on waking up many still-ins , and de-PTSing them. The only other events of comparable magnitude , is the works of Mike and Marty. What Debbie did takes a lot of guts. I am not even sure if I have the confront to go through all that myself.
She spent almost all her life at Scn, working for a misery salary under an impossible schedule. She could have stayed silence, but instead bravely decided to do something about it.
I am sure that Debbie and her husband are still healing their wounds. Those wounds sometimes takes a life-time to heal. Going against a giant like the CofS, unfinanced , is like throwing stones at a tank. That’s a no-win scenario. How many offered their millions dollars to keep up the fight ? Just how many ? Why did they had to put out a fight alone ? They were not responsible for ourselves any more that we are not responsible for them.
This isn’t about being a hero, it is about being willing to do something about it, and she was, and actually DID something about it. Her letter is everywhere now , and because of it , many had the chance to wake up , and get out of the grips of a destructive cult.
I would suggest researching everything you can about cults, and seek assistance for your family from support groups that share similar experiences. This following website has a lot of resources for victims of cults. They’ve been around for decades. They don’t evaluate, impose any ideas on anyone, nor tell you what to do. They just listen and guide. Their name is ICSA for “International Cultic Studies Association”. They are non-profit , and have helped a lot of people. It is formed by top professionals in the field that donate their time.
http://www.icsahome.com/
Three excellent books on the subject of cults, their destructive nature , and how to recover from them are :
1. “Recovery From Cults: Help for Victims of Psychological and Spiritual Abuse”. Edited by Michael Langone.
2. “Captive Hearts, Captive Minds: Freedom and Recovery from Cults and Other Abusive Relationships” . By Madeleine
Landau Tobias,Janja Lalich,Ph.D.,and Michael Langone.
3. “Combating Cult Mind Control: The #1 Best-selling Guide to Protection, Rescue, and Recovery from Destructive
Cults”. Steven Hassan.
At the above website, you’ll be able to find many resources, other books, and a lot of help.
Don’t just remain stuck on it, do something effective about it. You owe you to yourself, you owe you to your family. I assure you, there is help available ; use it.
I wish you the best for you and your family. Success in your path.
Take care.
Best Regards,
TC
Hope Debbie is happily painting away in some beautiful spot of her choosing.
Anyone who has red the Ethics materials “ought” to know that if they are trying to leave the CoS they are being considered as, and being treated as, “SPs”, and SP’s “May be lied to and tricked” per Hubbard’s stated opinion. Thus they can expect that they are being lied to in any promises made to them. These promises are simply intended to sway and control them.
Anyway, Thanks Mike for this awesome post, and I have shared Debby’s Fibro site on Facebook.
Thank you for this invaluable background story about Debbie Cook. This is a time where critical information like this seems to be coming out of the woodwork and fleshing out our understanding of the incredible damage that has been done to people by this cult. The severity of the cruelty wielded by these sickos is still mind boggling.
I hope there are heartfelt apologies waiting in the wings for Debbie Cook from those who have foolishly maligned her. I hope the same for Gerry Armstrong – who to my understanding has suffered similar vitriol that I’ll never understand. They’re both brave individuals who stood “toe to toe” with the monster and “delivered a gut shot” as you say.
Mike, as always your expose’s are first class. Thank God you are where you are at this particular point in history.
I remember that period well. Debbie’s email marked a turning point for Co$ and DM. When she wrote me apologetically that she was thinking about settling, I too encouraged her to do so.
I hear you.
Per the “agreement” she could not counter the third party. Mike didn’t sign that agreement.
Never in here and from outside looking in, I had wondered, “Oh why did they not keep up the good fight?”. Definitely I have never walked a mile in her shoes or those of others in Scientology, so who am I to judge. After reading Mike’s backstory, now I can understand just a bit what people like Debbie et al have been through.
So many of you people in Scientology I feel a kinship towards. Here I am, a never in, and I wonder if you realize how utterly evil is this organization. I know, how dare I. Anyway, of course Debbie is my hero and I wish her the best life.
@mikefixac, I know this will make no sense to someone who has never been there, but all the sense in the world to anyone who has ever left so I’m going to post it in response to your “I wonder if you realize how utterly evil is this organization” Here’s my response.
I hadn’t heard a peep from the organization since 1983. In 2011, there was a message on my answering machine, all cheery and “uptone” from the church of scientology asking me to call them (the first of hundreds in their attempt to “recover” me). My response to that message?
Abject terror. Anyone who has ever been a part of the organization understands that they are always in their crosshairs and even 30 years later Freaks. The. Hell. Out. if they find them. That is how utterly evil that organization is.
Period. The end.
Hi Valerie,Powerfully & beautifully said.Abject terror says it all.I freak the hell out over hang up phone calls & the doorbell ringing when there is no one on the cameras,The Cult is Evil in a most devious form: the religious cloak.Always Ann.
Thank you Mike for posting this backstory.
I hope this will finally shut up all the “judges” that have no clue what was going on but made it their right to judge Debbie and Wayne anyways.
An informative, well written, organized and relevant piece. I believe this one of your best posts to date. While I never thought of D.Cook in anything remotely close to a negative light, actually quite the opposite. I now have an additional perspective on her and the persons involved in this action of bravery. I had no idea the extent of her situation (from the vantage point you expressed) despite the phenomenal amount of information available.
Thank you for providing additional information and your (and Debbie and her support team’s) experience regarding this chapter in CoS’s history.
Truly an enlightening post and story of an exceptional group of strong people. Thank you.
When Debbie left, SCN seemed to loose its last mover and shaker who was able to steady a ship in a hurricane!! Things got real windy, rocky and shaky very fast without her being present. If half wit, half pint had a brain at all, he wouldve given her whatever she wanted to stay. Instead he strips off her command, tortures, kidnaps, sues etc.
What an epic idiot! Only parasites and viruses kill off their hosts.
Corporate Scn is dying of kool A.I.D.S.
There just isnt any cure for it, so we should just let it die harder!
Debbie Cook ran the internship when I was at Flag. I found her to be a very professional and kind person who shielded her students from the insanity of production demand from Flag executives. The internship facilities were horrible with dripping condensation pipes in the ceiling making the whole place smell humid and moldy. Combine that with European students who didn’t believe in daily showers and it was almost unbearable. Debbie kept everyone focused on getting through their training while the room was remodeled around us. I knew that she was working long hours and should be exhausted, but her manner and temperament never changed. The only thing that I could fault her for was witnessing one of her internship supervisors’ vacation plans to attend his father’s 90th birthday party cancelled (after all of the interns worked really hard to make sure his stats were up). The intern supervisor melted down and was sent to the RPF. I ran into the intern supervisor in a hallway and was shocked by his condition. He was truly suffering, but was forbidden to talk to me and pushed past. As his manager, Debbie had to deliver the bad news and it was clear that it pained her, but I fault her for carrying out such a petty and mean order.
Lol, I remember that Internship room smell very well, What a dump. By the time I was on my NOTS Internship it was 1990/91 Debbie by then moved up to Captain.
While I did not walk in Debbie’s shoes and do not want to judge her – I can’t help but feel disdain towards her for what she did to Maria Pia Gardini.
Let’s not throw too much praise for her and Wayne. They did get “BLOOD MONEY” from my family who were bankrupted at Flag to pay them off.
All this praise makes me nauseated. Some of you are putting her on a pedistal.
She needed to do what she did – she destroyed some lives during her “command”. Please don’t forget Lisa McPherson and others who were abused and murdered or driven to death some other means by the Tech.
That all was evil and hard to forgive.
I hope she made up the damage to those people she harmed. If she and Wayne got Blood money – I hope they flowed some to the families they helped destroy.
It can be hard to forgive things that have happened in the past, especially when they happened to your family and friends. I try (and don’t always succeed) in applying my own rule of thumb: if the person is continuing to conduct themselves in a manner that is harming others you should do everything you can to stop them, heap scorn upon and generally make their lives miserable. If on the other hand the person has changed their ways and is no longer doing the things for which they should be scorned, then don’t live in the past. Deal with what you see in the present. CLearly if they have changed they KNOW what they did was wrong. You have every right to express your opinion. I dont happen to agree with you, for while you may think they took “blood money” I think they simply received backlogged pay after kicking the real perpetrator of the abuses rampant in the church today right in the gonads.
I think there is room for Ryan’s comment and yours. People always do as they are compelled by their nature and the most heroic thing anybody can ever do is merely the appropriate thing. Debbie did what she had to do and it was arduous to say the least. This still doesn’t release her from her duty to apologize to those she has injured if she hasn’t done so. That’s true for everybody. Superman may save the world but he still needs to get square with Jimmy Olsen for the insult to him the day before. I only say this because I think your comments aren’t without merit.
Debbie Cook is definitely at the top of my Superstar Hero list. While I was busily not-ising all the glaring out-points I was observing within the organization and trying to suppress my ‘overt thoughts’ against scientology, I still kept sneaking peeks at the internet entheta trying to make some sense to all this madness. That only made things worse because I would automatically classify any and all negative data as natter no matter how much sense it made. Then I stumbled across Debbie’s email. Although she repeated things I had already suspected but refused to accept even though I had heard or read others expressing similar thoughts, I understood that this email was written by an executive who was ‘still in’ and ‘in good standing’ at the time it was written. In less than 48 hours after reading her letter I was out of Scientology. The church made a feeble attempt to try to get me to come in and get handled but refused to do it on my conditions. All I asked of every person that called or contacted me was that they read Debbie’s letter and discuss it with me before I would go near the Org. That was like pointing a flame thrower at an ice cream cone. They quickly melted away.
I concluded that the church was afraid of her because she was telling the truth. Soon afterwards my real life began. I began reading anything and everything I wanted and reached my own conclusions based on my own evaluations. So, now I’m going through all the happily ever after stuff without any concerns about some group trying to steer me towards their concepts of rightness or wrongness.
Debbie, thank you, thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!!!!!!
And THANK YOU, Regraded Being for channeling your truth on this site every week. We get to laugh our butts off because of that flame thrower you still point. I sure hope Debbie Cook reads your strip.
Thank you Alice. My stuff is like a disposable lighter compared to Debbie’s blazing letter. I have no doubt that her few words changed the lives of many in an instant. To use the churches (Sherman’s) language, “Debbie Cook’s letter can only be recognized as an unprescedented pivotal point of epic proportion in determining the course of future existence of The Church of Scientology and the imbecelic spewer of moronic drivel that continues to thrust the aforementioned
organization towards a highly deserved position worthy of contempt and ridicule.
Debbie is a hero not just for standing up to Scientology, but for all those who would speak up at personal risk to expose the wrongs perpetrated by various organizations and shielded by their economic or other power. I admire her and appreciate her greatly.
Mr. Rinder raises a very valid point: if you have not been in the cross-hairs of such legal matters, you do not understand and you should shut up. I have been through non-related legal matters very trivial compared to what Debbie faced and that was plenty bad enough.
Just once I’d like to read a Blow Drill story where they sent the team packing or even called the police when they wouldn’t leave.
It’s always like watching a Teen Slasher movie: “No! Don’t check out that noise in the basement alone!” only instead “No! Don’t go back, they’re lying to you!”, but then they do, with the expected results.
Listen to ToryMagoo44’s story sometime. She was coached by Stacy and the folks at the Lisa McPherson Trust, so the police were waiting at the Tampa airport to make sure she got to choose the way out.
Wonderful tribute Mike. Without Debbie’s email I might still be in. It enabled me to really look. Her email started a tidal wave that created many more tidal waves.
Debbie Cook writes an on-policy knowledge report and sends it out to everyone who should be aware.
Miscavige sues her.
Debbie spills her guts, under oath.
Miscavige pays her to shut up and go away.
Interesting behavior for the most ethical group with the most ethical COB on the planet.
Wishing Debbie and Wayne all the best.
And thanks for posting this Mike. Nice to get the back story.
Thank You Mike for writing this post. You have written it so well in all aspects, there is really nothing one can add.
I’ve never liked the Monday morning quarterbacks either. They seem to have no idea of the grind of a normal legal case, and the bare knuckle law fights with CoS are anything but normal. If they had stayed and fought (and were capable of it), even if it was going well, it would still be happening and probably just back from a trip to the top of the courts and back down again with more years to go.
As it was, Debbie Cook’s letter was a solid punch in the nose, her testimony on the stand a hard body blow. Retreating from the field in good order with a settlement (in spite of PR claims that no money changed hands) was no defeat, and living well is the best revenge against someone like Miscavige. (I wonder how many PIs he has following them?)
When Debbie’s email came out, I was already in the midst of leaving and struggling with how to do that exactly. Seeing the email was something that boosted my confidence in my observations and decisions.
Debbie and Wayne got pulled into this court issue without their consent, yet they delivered a huge legal blow to the church which is now a matter of record. I had no disagreement with their actions of settling. The damage was done and no one could take that away.
My only disappointment was purely selfish. I wanted to see the courtroom, part 2, as it was one of the most entertaining things I had seen in a long time. I felt giddy at watching the things that were being exposed and picturing how Miscavige was reacting to it all. Again on that end, I know, selfish.
Thank you Debbie and Wayne and all those who contributed at the time. I’m glad they have moved on to happier times and wish them the best.
Debbie’s email and testimony can never be deleted, no matter how much threats and $ Dave throws at her. The “KR” was the best one I ever read. My own Kool aid sister was Debbie’s communicator for quite some time and Debbie was her Opinion leader, unfortunately the email did not turn my sister around. But it sure effected a ton of people. I wish nothing but the best for Debbie and Wayne.
oh, I was in the Captains office for a while, I wonder if if your sister and I were there at the same time?? How can we get in touch?
My sister is still in though out of the Sea Org. You can reach me at mreppen1@gmail.com
Bravo. Debbie is a heroine. I admit a tinge of disappointment when she settled, but I also knew she slid a saber into the heart of the Beast and that 95% of what she could have done she already did with the letter and the testimony.
She’s great. It’s the church that’s evil.
And everyone involved in her defense was stellar.
“Wet behind the ears,” meaning inexperienced or naive, comes to us from the wonderful world of baby farm animals. It seems that the last part of a newborn horse or cow (“foal” and “calf” to the cognoscenti) to dry out after birth is the area behind the little critter’s ears. Thus, to say that someone is “wet behind the ears” is a folksy way of saying that they lack the experience or savvy necessary to accomplish a task.
Excellent post. Thanks for giving us the rest of the story. Debbie’s New Year’s email validated everything my husband and I observed in the church and was a pivotal step in our decision to leave. Time to buy her book.
Mike, Thanks so much for giving the viewpoint of why Debbie agreed to settle. This is the first explanation I have seen from someone who knows, of why she did it.
At first when I heard that she settled I was very disappointed but I also knew that I didn’t know what really happened and giving an opinion about something that you have no idea how things went down, is not fair. I exchanged a couple emails with Debbie when contributing to her legal fund, and she remembered me favorably and was grateful for the donation, and I was hoping that maybe soon we could meet in person again and talk about the old days or something.
Up until now, there was no explanation at all as to why and how she settled, and I understood that she was not allowed to give an explanation nor communicate anything at all, and the mystery resulting from that was the most disappointing thing. But now Mike has brought about a better understanding of this.
One way that you can tell that Debbie always strived to be the best she could possibly be at what she did was the fact that she could be tough as nails on one hand, and also be kind, caring and understanding on the other. You don’t see that very often in Scientology, but it’s something that I always strived for myself as a Supervisor, which is how I knew Debbie in the 1980s, as a Supervisor.
I hope her book has great effects.
Don’t you mean all over David Let Him Die Miscavige’s face?
Mike,
Thank you very much for this touching article. I have my own sources on this and can state that what you describe is accurate.
Debbie’s letter is a turning point in the history of Scientology. Thousands have read it and it still serves as a “must read” for Scientologists leaving the church. The letter gave a boost to many of us in early 2012 to look at what’s going on and to communicate about it.
Dror Center left as a group in June 2012 as a direct result of Debbie’s letter, with the huge assistance of Marty, yourself and many others. It seemed then, that Debbie and Marty and Mike will become the new leaders of the new, burgeoning movement of “Independent Scientology”. It was a disappointment to me and many others that you guys “resigned” or chose other directions in life.
Thanks to support we received in our “early indie” days, 2012, from Marty, Debbie and Mike, Dror Center is now thriving as one of the largest Scientology activities in the world, delivering the full “LRH Bridge” to people who come here from around the world.
The Old Testament describes the journey of 40 years, taken by the Hebrew tribes who escaped slavery in Egypt to freedom in the Holy Land. Moses led them out of Egypt to their new home yet God barred him from entering, he could only see the Promised Land from Mount Nebo.
It could be that Debbie, Mike and Marty helped take our shackles off, showed us the way to freedom but have then decided not to walk it themselves.
Myself, and many more, remain indebted to you.
Hi Dani……it could also be that Marty, Mike et al simply chose to walk a different path (to freedom) than the one you chose.
Hey, ANY path away from Madman Dave is the right path………
Anyone who kicks Miscavige has my admiration, this includes Mike, Debbie, and the entire Dror Center.
Each escape is like a rock thrown into water. Some escapes leave a large wake, some are like pebbles and leave only a ripple. However big or small the escape, each one has an impact.
Or (for another analogy) each escape is another piece of straw. Eventually the camel’s back is going to break!
Hey Ch Ch,
You’re absolutely right. Every man (I guess woman, too) creates his own path to salvation or damnation, happiness or misery, slavery or freedom. And every person is pretty sure what he does is the right thing to do, otherwise he’d do something else.
I am very happy and proud with what we are doing and know there’s many people to thank for leading the way and supporting, in the early stages Marty, Debbie and Mike. And I know they helped many others too. And Mike is still doing a great job with this blog.
In 2012 it looked like they would continue to lead the way and with this crew at the helm, DM’s downfall looked imminent. It’s taking a bit longer but he’s got nothing to grin about. His downfall is certain, if not imminent.
Dani, if I were still practicing Dianetics and Scientology and wanted to receive services, you are the type of person that I would seek out. I appreciate your honesty in expressing your disappointment in certain persons leaving Scientology for good, and admire your graciousness and good-will towards them. I hope your center continues to be a success and wish you well.
The announcement of the settlement came on May 7th. I had just driven my daughter and grand child to the airport knowing I probably wouldn’t see them again for a long time , as disconnection was looming.
I cried long and hard for Debbie and for my family.
But knowing the impact of her email and the pain she went through I never thought she was anything but a hero.
Thank you for saying it the way it is Mike. Anybody criticizing her doesn’t fully understand how truly horrific the ” church ” is.
” Anybody criticizing her doesn’t fully understand how truly horrific the ” church ” is.”
Very true Marie. I would add that such individuals are seldom willing to stand up for a just cause. Maybe because that is who they are, maybe because they can’t understand, maybe because they don’t want to understand, but it could also be due to permanent damage inflicted by ‘cult think’, exposure to it having reduced the being into a lump of fear. Either way, there are a lot of casualties from this activity.
Yes you are right, there are a lot of casualties and I brace myself constantly for what is to come when the disconnected people realize that all is not well and the pain of it hits them.
we don’t need to judge Debbie , we need more like her.
“Debbie bluffed and said her father had instructions to call the police if they didn’t show up that afternoon.”
Yes, and these fucking Scientology criminals want to demand that they are some how a “religion” and some how a “church.”
What Scientology is is organized crime, first and foremost these fucking crooks are mobsters who *will* kidnap and murder their customers and their fellow ringleaders if “that’s what it takes” to get full compliance with David Miscavige’s violent, sociopathic, screaming demands.
Why these insane criminals aren’t in prison is not a mystery: The United States’ politicians are pants-shitting cowards.
Debbie’s letter helped me more than anything, as she was saying all that I saw was happening and I had no one to turn to with my doubts or how to get out of the situation. Her letter opened the door to read the internet, find the truth and get courage to leave. I’ll love and thank her forever for that!
Thank you Mike for this background story.
Thank you Mike, I have always wondered about why Debbie settled and this brings me piece of mind.
It warms the cockles of me wee little heart to reflect on how David Miscavige decided to pulverize Debbie with a battalion of lawyers only to give her the world media in which to announce the dirty little secrets he was trying to keep hidden. It stands as one of the more humiliating of the Little Dictator’s anthology of bungles.
It really was a foot-bullet of major proportions from DM. His abuses are now documented by oath sworn testimony. Good job Debbie Cook, way to get the record out there.
” She asked her to stop at the dining hall in the Clearwater Bank building and grab her some food, Debbieo and Wayne would wait in the van and the air conditioning needed to stay on. As soon as she was inside Debbie jumped in the front seat, drove to the nearest car rental place, got a car and set off for her father’s home in North Carolina.”
We can be sure that her Scientology jailers got in trouble by the crime syndicate’s head ringleaders for falling for that ruse, and we can be sure that surviving Scientology customers trying to escape will have had a difficult time using the same ploy after that.
Scientology human rights atrocities, crimes, and abuses are epic. These filthy crooks only want as much money and control out of their customers as they can possibly get, even tying you down and murdering you like they did Lisa.
I trained under Debbie at Flag in 1995-6 for the first GAT evolution. She was a powerhouse of magnitude and I wanted to BE her. I thought she was the most badass woman on the planet and the best executive I had ever seen. When she settled I thought, GOOD FOR YOU! YOU DESERVE EVERY PENNY YOU GET AND A BILLION MORE. Honestly there is no amount of money that is too much to get from the church. What they did to her was beyond evil. BEYOND inhumane. She was brave and bold and BAD FUCKING ASS like always. I am happy that you and Marty, Marc and Claire convinced her to take the money. She needed it and she needed to regain her life and her health. Speaking out is therapeutic in some ways. It has been for me at least. But the mental toll of worry and fretting over the safety of my children is harder at times than I anticipated. Is it worth it? Yes. Would Debbie have stayed in this fight to the DEATH? Yes. Should she DIE for this? NO FUCKING WAY. We all already gave most of the best years of our lives to the cult. We all gave almost ALL of our physical health as well as a gigantic CHUNK of our sanity. We are all recovering. Debbie deserves a fucking medal and a parade and her retirement. She MORE than earned it. Thank you Debbie. You are still one of the greatest ever and I wish you all the best. You got us WAY up on the scoreboard and we are gonna bring this one home for you!
Amazing how many of us 96ers ended up out of the CoS, actually.
Thank you Mike for this!
I love you Debbie and always will. I looked up to you when I was a public at Flag! I admired you when you were my captain at Flag! You are an incredible being and will alway have a special place in my heart ❤️.
I wish you and Wayne all the best in the world.
Very true, Ronit. We, Flag public, admired Debbie. She was there, smiling, encouraging, willing to help. When Yuval, Tami’s father, was stranded at Flag, I walked up to her, defying policy not to ‘grab’ an executive. Debbie immediately left what she was doing, handled the delivery cycle and made sure Yuval was serviced and happy.
Under her command, Flag grew to be a huge org, yet it was a fun place. With Debbie out, under DM and his stooges, it became depressive and miserable.
I wish Debbie and Wayne success in all they do. Such gifted and caring people, they will continue to flourish for sure.
Very well said Dani, I fell exactly the same way.
We all should support them and wish them luck in rebuilding their lives.
Dani, just for the record, even we, the arrogant Int and Gold staff who looked down on everybody below Int, admired Debbie enormously. Everybody knew she was the main person keeping that golden goose laying those two million dollar a week GIs.
Dan, I think it’s Hubbard who said, “The only richness there is, is understanding” (from memory).
A person who can care for thousands will sure make tons of money. My experience too, at running Dror.
Never have any attention on money, never even reg. Care for people, give ’em unlimited ARC, with some KRC, and money pours in. And when it comes in, still no attention on the money, only on giving great service to the individual coming in.
(I do hope DM does not read this, my successful actions. But I’m pretty sure he just cannot do it, miserable beggar.)
Thank you, Mike. Debbie is an amazing woman and she and her husband are heroes.
Great blog post today. I’m certainly glad I’ve withheld judgement. Once again the old proverb old true although I’m going to massacre it. Never judge a man/woman into you’ve walked a mile in their shoes.
Thank you Mike. This is quite informative. The back story for sure helps in understanding it. I guess you could say I am one of those who did not agree with what she did, but reading this, I understand it better.
I think she has done some great things in sending out the email, and the testimony of course. Both are heavily damaging to Scn.
The thing I do not, and have not understood about what happened is from my understanding, Debbie is a true believer in LRH and the tech. Is that correct? While I understand why she settled, the point I do not understand is if she was/is still a true believer in the tech, settling means she has signed away her eternity. That was what I could not and did not understand. Now if she had decided she was out and done with Scn and settled, that would be a different story.
—-
I feel bad that I have pointed a finger (so to speak), because honestly, we all (especially myself) have things to apologize for in our time in Scn and the Sea Org.
Thanks Sunny and I appreciate you making this comment. You could have said nothing. As for whether Debbie is a true believer I don’t know at this point. Even if she was a true believer, the idea of signing away your eternity is in fact counter-intuitive to everything you learn in scientology. You are an immortal spiritual being… etc etc I think you could still believe in and apply “the tech” and disassociate yourself from the church or organized scientology, applying what you had learned that you found helpful. I don’t think these concepts are mutually exclusive.
Thank you for that. (By the way I was not around watching Scn stuff at all during the time of the letter and the testimony and read/watched it much later. After I did the SP Times article I was away from watching Scn for a few years).
I think the simple fact, which I was unaware of until your post today, that she called you and Rathbun says it all. She is calling on other SP’s for help, not anyone else. That part was something I did not know.
Excellent point on that Mike. It is completely true that according to the teachings of Hubbard vis-a-vis the thetan (soul) that you cannot do anything but continue to exist and live. Also, he stressed heavily that when your body dies you are just reborn into another here on Earth and you just continue on up the bridge. So it is strange that the church feeds that particular line to scn’ers as it is diametrically to the written and recorded teachings of the “founder”.
Hi Mike,Thinking about your comment about a being applying tech but disassociating from cos & still being able to use the tech positively.In theory I completely agree with you and I can see where this approach works for those that want that path.In practice doing the former is so very hard for me.I never started to throw the baby (the whole cos) out with the bath water,but when I even entertain an idea that there might have been a time when the tech worked for me,all I hear is that I am the biggest DB-SP that ever dragged a body around.Months of make wrong drilled constantly at me muddies the waters.From a reasoned logical point of view I do see benefits to those that can use it.But it has taken me many many years to really see the Evil inherent in the cos SO etc.What has been done to us when we joined SO or staff or any contact with cos,I for one never thought the good in the tech could just as easily be manipulated to become negative & harmful.That is what I wrestle with.Ron was the Founder he knew the traps twists turns & literal dead ends in his religion.He set it up and he was not stupid in that he knew what power he held over humans.So that cognition is all wound up with tech.I know sec checking is not auditing but when applied as written,boy did it mess me up big time.Does any of my post make sense at all?It’s a subtle thread of evil that still runs through the cos.All the money in the world for David and celebs & big being givers cannot change that point.Thank you for listening.Always with admiration for the work you do-Ann.
Perfectly said and I could not agree more. I sincerely hope they milk every last drop of pleasure and happiness from their lives. They deserve it and more.
Thanks, Mike, for the fitting and well-deserved tribute to a hero.
Very nice Mike. My heart is warmed.
Thank you Mike for explaining this situation. As an ex OSA legal staff I know I would never risk litigation against the richest cult on Earth. Debbie’s Email had indeed a huge impact. I met a young Paris staffer at Tony’s event here last week. At the beginning I thouhgt he was a plant and then he told me he had left after Debbie Cook’s Email. That message, from such a respected Sea Org member was quite a milestone in the demise of Miscavige’s ecclesiastical racket. Once Debbie had said in court what she said about the hole and Miscavige’s brutality there was no point to continue in a legal battle that she could never win in the U.S. If it had been in Russia, in France or in Norway things would have been different. I think you and Marty gave them the right advice and I am glad she took it. Thank you Mike for defending a brave woman who did the most and the best she could.
I had no idea of the background to the Debbie Cook story, some had claimed very unfairly that her own greed led her to selling out her ideals. In fact it wouldn’t surprise me if this idea was secretly seeded by cherch operatives. The Debbie Cook email has become legendary – it was the first thing I read when I started having my own doubts about the organization.
A common thread that I see in this article is that whenever the CoS was threatened with ‘calling the police’ they backed down and let Debbie go. The Church of Scientology knows that it walks a fine line of kidnapping and as long as the person mentally agrees and submits to it, the church will do it. It makes me wonder about the people who physically can’t make the escape, or just don’t have the resources to do so. It’s pretty horrifying to consider. There has to be people who are in this situation and who are left behind.
Pepper, ANYONE can physically escape. They just walk out or threaten. It is all mental. Why do you think that people pull a stunt like tricking the lady to leave the vehicle running. Wayne is a BIG man physically. He could have reached forward any day he wanted and just grabbed the car keys whenever they came to a stop sign. It is ALL mental.
Thanks John. In theory yes, escaping is all mental. A person would have to have their mental faculties in order to even plan an escape. I was thinking about accounts I’ve read from people. First, those who escaped the Freewinds. The guy who scaled down the side of the ship. Valeska Paris was held for 12 years. Maybe they could have made threats of police/suicide but would it have worked on the Ship? I’m not so sure, and I know I could never scale the side of a ship. Also, look at The Hole. If someone makes threats there and at some point it’s bound to happen, will anyone even listen? Then there’s Marc Headley who was run down on the highway by the Int goon squad. What if he was disoriented from the impact they caused and when help arrived the help listened to the goon squad, that they would ‘take care of’ Marc? He would have been taken right back to Int. Lastly, there is Lisa McPhearson who was incapacitated at the time that she was picked up from a hospital by Scientologists promising that they would ‘care for her’ and we know how that ended. Lisa McPhearson is probably the best example I can think of because she was mentally incapable of giving consent and thus held against her will. It’s truly amazing to me that the CoS got away with that one.
Pepper, not “in theory”, it is FACT. Those stories were from people who could not confront walking out the front doors. ALL those people were held by their mind. ANY of them could have walked out the front door.
When they have outlived their usefulness the Cult dumps them onto the welfare state.
After all …………….. they are only bodies ………….. and who really needs them when you can rise to such stellar heights of spirituality ……….. and all of that hog fucking wash!~
Yo Dave,
Think about it good buddy………….dump the short stump and pick up a new young streamlined body for another go round! And DO IT NOW!
On second thought, the longer you hang with your 4′-13″ frame with the special do-rag on top the more laughs we will all have. Either way I’d say it is a win win scenario ……..for us unenlightened wogs …. and freed SPs!
Mike, your writings are the most readable: clean, clear and concise. Your books would do very well. Thank you for sharing and thanks to Debbie and Wayne for all they have done.
Debbie Cook’s e-mail was one of the sources of information I used to pull myself out of scientology. At the time, I still saw the world like a true believer, and it was just what I needed.
I had no idea of the backstory. Thank you for telling it. And thank you, Debbie and Wayne, for your outstanding courage and desire to help people know the truth.
Wonderful article Mike. I didn’t know about Debbie and Wayne’s efforts to get out, and I am in even more awe of them than before. I also hope they are both doing well and I am fairly sure they must be. Everyone else who got out has only gotten better in all aspects of their lives.
Good to have the whole picture even though I knew since the beginning that Debbie would have never ‘sold herself out’ to the insane Miscavige.
If someone always cared a LOT for the public and staff it was Debbie who survived, not only the Hole, but over 13 years since the “RTC” arrival at FSO. She was always between doing something for the staff or public while juggling the contrary orders of RTC to do the otherwise.
Glad she is doing well and I personally wish her lots of success, she deserves it and so you do too Mike.
Silvia: “If someone always cared a LOT for the public and staff it was Debbie, who survived, not only the Hole, but over 13 years since the ‘RTC’ arrival at FSO. She was always between doing something for the staff or public while juggling the contrary orders of RTC to do the otherwise.”
I saw that too, Silvia. I’m sure you remember (unless you were auditing a pc at the time) the day the Captain announced at one of our lunchtime musters, that from now on we were going to apply the LRH policies intended to make being on staff “a happy place to be” (I think that’s pretty close to LRH’s words). People were going to get their libs (liberties – days off), their yearly LOAs (vacations), sane schedules per policy, etc.
We were all exhilarated, not just for ourselves but because we knew that additional staff was the thing most needed to get auditing and training really happening – and we knew that public could easily see what staff conditions were like and most wanted no part of. Over the years that I was on staff, I watched conditions get progressively worse under Miscavige.
As you well know, Debbie Cook’s “bright idea” never got off the ground. In spite of the fact that she was highly trained, not only in tech but in admin (OEC/FEBC), she had her hands tied and was not allowed to apply the references. When nothing changed, I instinctively knew that it was Miscavige who had put a stop to it. By the time I routed off staff a few years later, I was very sure DM was a dictator who did not apply policy – or used it to stop. And I had realized that no amount of Knowledge Reports about off-policy actions, or even out-tech would make any difference.
Thank you, Mike, for the excellent blog post.
Great post Mr. Rinder. I checked out the link you provided for Debbie’s book and found this little gem: “…diagnosed with Fibromyalgia in 2000 at the Mayo Clinic…” Ironies of ironies although the Mayo Clinic and David Mayo have absolutely no connection.
I want to also thank you for keeping Debbie’s famous email available on your blog. I use it all the time. Whenever I receive a bit of promotion from the cult, I print out Debbie’s email and then I use their ‘pre-paid’ business reply envelopes and have them pay for delivering the email back to them. It probably just ends up in the shredder, but maybe not. Perhaps someone will be curious enough to read it and a seed will be planted. At any rate, it costs me just a few pennies for paper and ink and the cult pays the postage to help keep the USPS afloat. It also helps keep the legendary Ms. Cook alive and well and feared inside the bubble.
Ms. B. Haven, EXCELLENT idea!
Mike, you should put this suggestion (linking the email) at the top of your blog: “What to do if you receive mail from the CoS”
Indeed, Mike, when you write: “I am sure she did things she isn’t proud of – it’s pretty much inevitable to remain alive in any executive position in scientology that you do things that are against your inherent nature. It is simply survival. But she did care about the service the public received and brought a remarkable level of stability to the FSO.”
that’s even true for EACH and EVERY scientologist who remained for a long period there. Even customers selling hubbard’s “techs”. All of them have lied, sold like mad some “processes” they had some doubts upon, and adviced many people even their wife, husband, and family relations.
Hubbard made us a population of liars.
That’s why we got finally thinking we were in danger under we kept on to lie regarding the cult.
Roger,
Are you related to Collette Gonnet? I remember her from the days of when we were both on the Flag internship together back when Debbie Cook was the Intern Supervisor.
Dave
I never knew Debbie Cook and did not receive her famous email when it came out. I did get to read it eventually and see her testimony on video after I left the church. She is a heroine and an amazingly brave person to do what she did. God bless her for speaking out about the abuses in the CoS and Ray Jeffrey, Marty and Mike for helping her and Wayne when they needed it most. Thank you for this interesting article about what was happening with Debbie during this difficult time.
Yup, the letter was the left jab… then her testimony was one big Chuck Norris roundhouse kick! It takes a lot to get that asshole Miscavige to back the fuck off, and she sure as hell hurt that little prick.
Good on her.
Great job Mike! Your info on the background of Debbie and Wayne may still stir a few of the more reluctant types to grow a pair and state what is true for them. Someone once said (can’t recall the exact quote) that ” constant vigilance and a willingness to fight back ……..” was a ‘pro – survival’ activity.
Let’s do it!!!
Yo Dave,
How are those weekly stats looking good buddy? Has your friend Louis Farrakhan decided to do his Grade II yet? Better get him regged up …….
I had short contact to her via a third person. But this was at the end of the start of her ” she is away”. Many people including me hoped that she will talk openly about FLAG. Instead of this we all know what happened. I came across her because of a picture of her together with the OT 8 BIGGI REICHERT at her SOLO NOTS and OT honor celebration. The picture could be seen here:
( Click the Galerie )
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/csi-clearwater-death-cases-at-scientology/x/11645739#/story
Big died on March the 5th. 2006 in HH after returning from FLAG without having a FLAG OK with mysterious circumstances.
I was pointed to Debbie Cook because if a Scientologist with series psychological problems that the church is aware of, comes to FLAG, even if there is no OK – plus the person is a foreigner, immediately OSA and of course Debbie would be informed.
Not that she would have to do anything with it directly, but she would know who “solved” the problem an “handled” her out of Flag on March 1h.2006. I had only the name of Bill a rich OT from Texas and friend of Biggi who had been involved in this “operation” of sending a helpless and unstable person back, which ends up with her death.
But it ended like many of these things end.
Debbie got a agreement and will be silent for the future.
There are people out there wo have signed NO agreement and still do not talk.
I have no Idea how much or what DM has given to all them, but as long as people keep doing that, as long
he and his folks can get away with nearly everything.
If Scientology ever had been developed to help people what many people claim, this is one of the best examples that the todays organization is not doing so.
And if this doesn’t work for a OT 8, then you really have to question whats going on there.
I know of two OT 8s who died of cancer the past year or so, which doesn’t make sense to me if achieving that status you are suppose to be above and beyond such earthly body problems. The excuses are they are PTS or have a major loss or are not handling something correctly; maybe all those are true but on the other hand they were still connected to SCN and to me shows it didn’t work all that great to bring oneself up out of the mess they were in. Several OTs just didn’t show me that to achieve that “status” was worth the time it took to get to it. I had more abilities without that “status”.
My last years on staff seeing many staff members die and no one helping them with the assists until it was too late. Staff were kept too busy to help other staff members (minus a few that made it go right to help, but again too late on the picture to do any real service for them). The sick and dieing were turned away after giving their all to the church. Does not seem like a very helpful organization to me.
Someone indicated one time “Why doesn’t our Sunday service fill up with church members like the other religions do” I told her they can go to church and not be hounded to donate or purchase something plus they only go once a week not 6 or 7 days a week. They go for their faith to meet and talk with each other as human beings not as some cash cow to be attacked the minute you walk out of the chapel door.
Hi Shadow,An eye opening post.On ASHO Day there was a SO member who worked in Div 6 I knew her for some years and we would sometimes do CF stuff together.I did not know her well,but there came a time I did not see her again.I asked around & found out she had dropped the body due to breast cancer.She refused any medical help,I really do not think the SO would have cared one way or the other on that,but she went in her room at The Hollywood Inn after touch assists massive vitamins etc.That was my first sign of SO members getting cancer.Then a bunch of OT public I had written to started dying of cancer,I would get a letter from their family telling me.I still did not put the pieces together.Now that I have two different cancers I do wonder were the seeds of this insidious disease sown long ago while scrubbing blue dust off decks & pipes?I may never know but I do know I will fight like hell till I can’t anymore then I will fight for all of you from a infinite viewpoint!Always Ann.
Hi Ann, yes way too many folks getting cancer in and out of Scientology, that is for sure. I know when I had my cancerous tumor removed 3 years ago I changed my diet and how I reacted to things. Joined meetup groups and found people were much nicer than we were told they would be. But I had really known that because I still worked in the non-scientology work force as well as worked on staff. Did 40 + hours on day job and 40 + hours on staff, it finally took its toll for sure. But I felt a lot safer outside of the church than in it.
I would feel unsure and unsafe in my work space at the org. I had to hide my stuff or just not bring it in my work space; cuz your stuff was everybody’s stuff so it would get taken or used. Now I don’t feel that when I am in other groups. But society still has its major issues which brings up other points if Scn is doing so great how come there are not major changes in the public sector and better outcomes. Problem is they can’t handle their own organization let alone handle the planet. Too think too I almost went to Flag a couple of times, but it wasn’t in the cards to go and thank goodness for that; I would see staff go for a few months or a year and be there for 5 or 6 years and had to work part of the time to pay off the debt.
What started out as such good intentions sure went the wrong direction. Sad thing too is I never liked disseminating Scn to others. I tried it a few times and lost friends due to being over pushy, plus wasn’t really settled on the outcome and wins of it all. Which is sort of weird because I stayed so long in Scn. thinking that way. Well I am out now. Love this blog and how everyone opens up and gives their viewpoints, still wonder though if the sites are being monitored really close by investigators and how good are they at tracking people. Oh well.
Hi Shadow,Thank you for your informative post.I know what you mean about guarding one’s stuff when in cos.A ring of mine walked out of our room at H’wood Inn, I knew who took it but no proof so I learned to have secret places for earrings etc so those would not take a walk either.As to those in who read here,if cos wants to find you they will.I take the point that cos is always watching & listening,they are awfully anal about shifting gears on anything,so I have plenty of cheese for the Big Rats an endless supply & into The Rat Trap with them all.Y’all gave me so much trouble on the inside,I learned from that what to look,out for, although I may not be right on that 100% of the time,I do have warning signs from before that help if some comm or Rat blocking me here comes along.The first time I was blocked I freaked, poor Mike I really was afraid I could never post here again.Now I am Rat Hunter!Congratulations on your cancer battle.You are a hero too.Love Ann.
Great post Mike. Thanks for the information. What Debbie Cook did took guts. Throughout the ordeal she showed grace under pressure and personal integrity. The settling of their case with scientology was a wise decision based on the history of scientology litigation. They had to bear far more than anyone outside the scientology world could ever imagine. I applaud her for her courage under fire. I am glad they got out from under and have found the tools and medical support for this awful disease. I wish her health and happiness for she deserves both.
Great post Mike. Debbie Cook helped us leave for good. In fact, she gave us the nudge to scour the internet and find out everything we could about our “church”. We went all the way down the rabbit hole too because we had seen enough crimes within the Organization for ourselves…we felt something was rotten at the top.
Of course, it is always easy to judge from the sidelines. Who knows what anyone would do if the Scum of Scientology was suing. Using parishioner’s donations to hide their crimes. It is sickening.
Oh, let me not forget…. fuck you OSA!
Fuck you to anyone reading this who keep the “show on the road”, especially after you have witnessed the crimes yourselves and shoved the data under your “cognitive dissonance” rug. Stop being so busy saving the planet from finding out about the Crimes of Scientology and wake the fuck up. Scientology KILLS!
When dealing with Scientology – everyone loses.
It is sad that they were put in the position they were put in.
I do agree – Debbie Cook delivered a blow of such magnitude – it will reverberate for centuries and cause irrepable damage to Scientology – the Cult of Cult’s. Well Done Debbie and Wayne.
Bravo and if I might add, another FUCK YOU to anyone who hereafter pays for another service or book. Adding money and strength to this destructive cult when the information about their crimes is readily available makes you an accomplice. These are remarkable times we live in, the horrendous crimes and human rights abuses perpetrated by David Miscavige and HIS cult warrant nothing less than a complete walk out on the part of it’s current membership. It’s the duty for every Scientologist to get informed and act responsibly.
Doug – I second the motion – anyone who donates money for any service or donation strengthen’s David Miscavige’s slush fund for his lavish lifestyle carefully hidden from view – along with his criminal attorney’s he pays to keep Scientology Working Standardly…
Nice one IM. I just wish you wouldn’t sugar coat it so much! 🙂
Yeah, no shit, Doug! You really need to let it all out. Don’t hold back! And as Coop said, “don’t sugar coat it!” Don’t beat around the bush!
Now that’s what I call a meaningful post, Doug! Very well done!
I’m a never-in who donated to Debbie’s defense and considered it money well spent, all the way through.
Thanks for this write-up, Mike.
Great post Mike.
Thanks for setting the record straight, Mike.
Mike. Thank you for this post and for clarifying for the naysayers how hard she fought. I have always been “team Debbie”. No one is required to continually fight a battle. No one has a right to judge someone who is no longer at battle. Even soldiers are granted the right to come home from war. There is no reason why anyone should expect Debbie to stay on the front lines.
The same goes for you. Should you one day choose to walk away, that is your right. The war with and against Scientology is a long and wearying one and has been from the start.
I too am a Fibromyalgia sufferer. Anytime anyone has said anything about Debbie and Wayne walking away, I have attempted to point out the toll fibromyalgia takes on the body. That alone would make someone throw in the towel. I can’t imagine the pain she was in on the day she was testifying as stress is one of the worst things to cause a flare.
My hat goes off to her and Wayne for firing a huge cannon across the bow of SSMiscavige. That email and her public court testimony did more damage than most of her naysayers will do in their lifetimes.
Tony has always defended her actions as well.
She did good.
+100 Valerie.
and now she, like the rest of us, is free of them!!!! Hip, Hip, …………………
@newcomer srsly? ROTFL.
Will. Not. Complete. That sentence . . . .
Coop, what kind of church makes members sign away their rights? What kind of church spends millions on PIs that spy on current or ex-members? What kind of church tries to intimidate their own members and those who disagree with the church? What kind of church has its own Slave Labor/Reeducation Camps where you can remain for years? What kind of church tells certain members to ‘end cycle’ (i.e. kill themselves)? What kind of church makes their SO members work 14 to 16 hours 7 days a week for pennies an hour with little if any time off? What kind of church destroys families on a regular basis? What kind of church comes after someone who wrote one of the first critical books on them and tries to have this person sent to prison by getting her finger prints on some paper and sending themselves a bomb threat? What kind of church runs drug & alcohol rehab clinics that actually kills people? What kind of church hires PIs to spy on the leader’s father? Then, when the leader’s father seems to be having a heart attack, the leader calls to tell them NOT TO INTERFERE. That if it’s his father’s time, LET HIM DIE? What kind of church pays two PIs millions of dollars to spy on an ex-member for decades? What kind of church has a toxic, evil & militant reputation…and likes it that way? What kind of church forces girls and women to get abortions when they become pregnant? What kind of church makes their members work in toxic and dangerous environments? What kind of church operates a prison camp known as the ‘Hole’ where you’re only allowed out for a shower and the prison itself has ants crawling all over the place and when the temp hits triple digits, there’s no A/C? What kind of church has a founder that lied about or greatly exaggerated his entire life? What kind of church has a founder that basically said if someone criticizes their church should be ruined utterly? What kind of church, when the founder died, says he was in perfect health, laid down his body and left to a place called Target Two. When, in fact, the founder was obese, his teeth were rotting out of his mouth and he was a paranoid schizophrenic that saw boogie men around each corner? What kind of church has a founder that was anything BUT a father to his kids. What kind of church has a founder who was a bigamist (not to me confused with a large Italian fog)?n What kind of church infiltrates our own government agencies and gets busted by the FBI? (Note: Our nation’s biggest domestic spying scandal was perpetrated by this church. And when they got busted, the founder quickly left town and let his wife take the fall). What kind of church actively recruits celebrities so their celebrities will bring in more of the same? What kind of church, that when you leave without notice, they send a team to go and, literally, bring you back? What kind of church is not open about their beliefs? What kind of church practices ‘thought stopping’ techniques? What kind of church urges its members to spy and report on each other (even parents and siblings)? What kind of church lies like there’s no tomorrow?
What kind of church indeed…
Old Surfer Dude, well unfortunately through history I do believe a lot of the big churches did a lot of the same things. Wasn’t the Catholic church behind Hitler and other unsavory sorts and weren’t there Christians killing off or betraying their folks in Roman times and other eras throughout history.
I know Scn is pretty bad, but I do believe mankind hasn’t learned from their mistakes of the past and seem to repeat them; whether it be government or religion – too much power and stealing money from the little people. There will be a take over sooner or later either against Scn or the government which may come crashing down; its been done before when the power gets too big for their pants and the people have finally had enough all hell breaks loose. Hopefully, it won’t wipe out the planet when it happens.
There is only one kind of a cherch that fits your description OSD …. a Covert Undercover Lying Treasonous Group of Retarded Egotistical Entheta Dickheads. Dave the dildo is their leader!
The acronym they are known by is the CULT of GREED. As for the attributes, you have them well covered IMHO !!!!
Thanks, Coop. And yet they’re STILL tax exempt…
Everything you said is correct, Shadow. The only church I attended services at was Church of Religious Science (not to be confused with Christian Science). My wife and I were married in the Church of Religious Science. However, I chose to focus on scientology as I spent too many years in it.
All of your points are very valid.
Excellent article. Thanks very much for the update.
Mike, you are a gentleman and a scholar for setting the record straight..
I entirely agree. You said it in a few words.
I agree, Robert.
Thanks for filling in the gaps in the story, Mike. I agree: whatever peace that Debbie and Wayne may have now, they’ve earned ten times over. I wonder who’s going to be the next hero(ine) to stand on the rooftop and yell loud and long.
DM’s father.
I’ll second that…………….
It’s oh so very easy for us bystanders to transform one’s wish that Scn be harmed into putting the onus on somebody else for “caving”, but it’s a clear and convincing backstory from such an authoritative source makes it easy to see a victory when we see one.
Thank you, Mike, and thank you Debbie and Wayne.
Thank you for sharing your story Mike. It was a breath of fresh air.
Thank you for this article Mike, I learned some things today that I did not know about how Debbie and Wayne came to settle with the church.
Debbie’s email was the beginning of the end of my relationship with the church and I will always be grateful that she stood up and pulled back the curtain on what was going on inside DM’s creation. I knew in my gut something was wrong with the church but I guess I needed someone like her who was actually in a position to know the truth to reveal it. Hers was a communication that I simple could not ignore, although a number of my friends at the time tried to tell me that what she had done was “entheta” and that she was the problem.
I wish the very best for Debbie and hold out hope that we have not seen the last of her. Debbie you have my deep respect
Her email started a lot of people on the road out of the hell known as David ” let him die” Miscavige Scientology. I understand why she is not able to speak out about the cult. Hope she does well with her book and very glad to read the update, Mike.
“I hope they are living a well, happy and peaceful life. I believe everyone owes them a debt of gratitude for what they did, not an uninformed snide comment about what they supposedly haven’t done.” Well said, Mike. And even though I sometimes push for people to sue the CofS and/or David “let him die” Miscavige, I never took pot shots at Debbie and in fact validated her as the reason I started looking and eventually came out of the church. Having her sign a gag order after she already testified is like shutting the barn door after the cows already got out. So she won and is a winner! I am eternally grateful for her.
Hi Mike,Thank you for sharing more of Debbie Cook’s story.I want to say how very very deeply her situation touched me.I know how extremely difficult it is to plan to blow SO & her hatted position & her years in it makes it even more remarkable she & Wayne got out.I also walked away from a legal war with cos.Until any person has begun a case with a pit bull lawyer who is going to,pull the trigger on cos and all abuses,and has been through the amount of blow back that cos drags into the courtroom they can’t understand.I asked for no money from cos I wanted the Truth told in court,but the toll on me was too strong.Finally I send her love & light & hope with the medical stuff.I hardly ever saw a Dr growing up & never in SO,now I have all the protocol for all medical procedures memorized.She beat her medical issues & for that I send huge waves of respect and good good wishes.I want all who were in & left,to have lives free of the constant drumbeat of Ron/David’s World in their ears.Peace is truly beautiful.Thank you Debbie be well & free always Ann.
Thanks Mike. Debbie is a true hero.
Mike, I have always thought the same thing of Debbie and her husband: that they are true heroes and were the David that took on Goliath. And, like David, she won. She didn’t win the case in the strict sense of it all, but she won by having her message go viral and by knowing that it inspired myself and many hundreds of others, to wake up and leave the suppressive “church” that DM had turned it to. Your article today was so well written. You are a top notch journalist and writer. Any book you ever choose to write would be a best seller because you have the facts, you verify the facts, and you write eloquently. And I also think she did the right thing to settle and concentrate on getting her health back.
Thanks Mike, for filling in the blanks. I’ve always felt Debbie and Wayne’s actions were driven by their own personal integrity – nothing more. If one subscribes to the Code of Honor, I can think of no better examples than Wayne and Debbie.
The anonymous critics remind me of the kids that would gather around a schoolyard fight and whip the crowd into a frenzy, and goad others to draw blood. It’s the price we pay for free speech.
In a just world, Debbie and Wayne would have been handsomely rewarded for their courage and public service, not attacked. We’re not quite there yet. But, there is some reward in knowing you have inspired others to muster the courage to stand up to the oppressive church and walk away.
That is a gift that keeps on giving and is priceless.
Good blog Mike. I too wondered about Debbie and sorry she had to go through what she did or any of you who had to endure the atrocities of Scientology.
I didn’t have to endure any of what you have gone through but through the years at the class v org seeing the mistreatment of staff was not something I liked at all and saw way too many staff die. It was like the only way out was to die. I know I have been a lot happier and spiritually better since being out.
Glad Debbie is recovering and hopefully will continue to do so.
Another great post, Mike.
“The Debbie Cook Email”! It changed the lives of many including mine. What she wrote I’d already started to practise, namely, I no longer donated money. I decided to spend in scn only money that forwarded my bridge.
I started to ease out of the church, thanks in part to Debbie Cook.
I hope she’s well and wish her joy and happiness. You, too, Mike.
Debbie and Wayne are heroes.
I’m sure they’ll go down in history as major contributors to the demise of Miscavige and his church; and Hubbard and scn, too.
Excellent Mike.
Debbie Cook is a hero. I have a question regarding her exit as well as others who try to leave Scientology. If a person wants to leave of their own free will, but instead is tracked down, forced into a vehicle, and then driven to a location and held against their will, is that not kidnapping? Has Scientology ever been charged with kidnapping?
Lori S, I don’t think that they have. Most likely, as in the story related above they agreed to it. Wayne & Debbie voluntarily left the dinner and returned to the church. I was told by security guards that I couldn’t leave too. I replied that I was walking out (over their corpses if need be) and just left. I refused to come back in and “leave properly”. Snr C/S Int left in a similar fashion. And he was a fish that DM did NOT want to get away.
p.s. I knew and worked with Wayne when we were young men. NOBODY could have stopped him from leaving if he wanted to. Nobody.
Hi John Locke, Liked your post.When I blew I did not do any proper paperwork for anyone.Just got the hell out of dodge! Strange but there was a grapevine of info about happenings with GOI as a couple of other SO members had been summoned by Bill E,but he enjoyed his time with me the most….unfortunately.A few weeks before I left a lady who had done all the Flag auditing told me that I really should go with her to somewhere beyond Santa Barbara,because there were terminals that we’re going to make things very difficult.I listened to her but ultimately smelled a rat because it did not add up that a public person would know what the GOI was up to.I was right if I had gone with her I would have been pulling weeds 24/7 in a desolate place near Hemet.She was on the GOIs side.Tales of life in the SO.Will keep one up at night! Love Ann.
Hi Lori S,What a tangled web cos weaves.In my SO day I do not think anyone trying to leave would bring up the kidnapping charge while in & wanting out.I literally had to plan for weeks how to depart.When I went on post at evening time,my room was searched by GOI every day or night.With six ladies the room was a tad too small but I had my little space in a corner & I would arrange items a certain way & I could always tell when things had been gone through.I was so afraid I would be RPFed each second.And with cameras now in auditing how long will it take for David to post cameras in SO berthing? Perhaps he already has.The twist is that if it had been known I was to blow that is when I would need rehabilitation for even contemplating that thought.The irony is that when I joined I truly believed Ron was The Truth.Four years on I ended up lying about my plan to leave with the best of them.The SO had trained me well!So Crazy.And this was 1978,Always Ann.
If they do post cameras in SO berthing, just wait until someone blows with a phone full of gigabytes of video documentation of the conditions inside the Sea Org. (Same deal with places like the Hole, only more so.)
Who watches the watchers?
Hi RMycroft,You make a great point.I also had a thought that as David gets more paranoid,metal detectors might be ordered so no SO could leave with a cell phone.Ann.
Hey Ann, if cell phones aren’t allowed (these days?!) then just a micro SD card would do.
Hi RMycroft, I am so either back in time or in the future.What please is a SD micro card?Any family to the scam meter?I just recently mastered typing on my IPhone.Always like your posts.Ann.
What is GOI?
Hi Carl Panzarell, Good to meet you.In my days GOI to public was Guardians Office Information that changed for me to be Guardians Office Intellicence. All those in after me correct me if am mistaken but that became the OSA.My Brst,Ann.
Hi Carl Panzarella DDS, Good to meet you. I’m sorry I forget about abbreviations & meaning. GOI stands for Guardian Office Infomation to public-to Sea Org the I= Intelligence forerunner to the
OSA.Office of Special Affairs.Anyone can help me with the definition I think that is how it went.A”fun”bunch of campers very tough group.Thank you My Best Ann.