We have an amazing episode of Fair Game podcast this week, speaking to Mark Vicente. If you have not been watching The Vow on HBO I highly recommend it.
It is the story of Keith Raniere and the NXIVM cult, told from the perspective of a number of former senior people in Raniere’s organization, including Mark.
We had a terrific conversation with him about the similarities between NXIVM and scientology — and there are MANY. We also talked about patterns of high control organizations and the larger picture.
I will post the link to the episode here when it becomes available.
I just finished watching The Vow earlier this week I came across this episode. I absolutely loved it. I saw a lot of similarities between NXIVM and Scientology. Mark was an excellent guest with alot of insight and information. There are alot of great similarities between you and Mark both very smart men who want/wanted to stop the abuses of a cult and get some sort of justice for the victims .Keith Raniere, DM, and LRH creep me out for the same reasons.
Really enjoyed this episode, as I do all of the episodes. I learn a lot each time I listen. There was a comment made that Mormons practice disconnection, which is not true. It is quite the opposite.
I thought Leah’s insight about the narcissism of cult members so interesting. It seems that the cult works to destroy one’s self and is able to accomplish that by reassuring the member of their “specialness!”
O/T. Sound and Telegraph: The Boys Season 2 Episode 7 : Butcher, Baker, Candlestick Maker Review
https://sodaandtelepaths.com/the-boys-season-2-episode-7/
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While I really wish there was a lot more Deep in this episode, the few scenes he had were some of the bluntest mockery of Scientology, the mockery hitting its peak with Eagle the Archer being shut out by the church in a manner similar to disconnection techniques used by the Church of Scientology. I do want them to go in a little harder on this ribbing of Scientology because it’s absolutely needed… maybe next season? Hell, hire Leah Remini and really just go for broke.
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I thought this was your best podcast so far; filled to the brim with keen, nuanced observations and cathartic insights, and which, for me, resonated deeply.
Thank you so much, Mike, Leah, and Mark!
What Len said !
Remarkable podcast !
I too LenZ. It makes me happy you’re happy 😊
Man, I related to a LOT in this episode. I’ve lived through Jehovah’s Witnesses and Landmark Education.
Really great to hear other people talk through/ about what happened after leaving these organisations.
After Landmark I tried to start up a few small businesses, wrote a book, and tried a few volunteer roles. Nothing stuck. Had such an eagerness to be productive again. Needed. Useful.
Even eating healthy during my Landmark times was for a purpose – I gotta be alert to effectively help society. Gotta be on top of my game to manage my thoughts and feelings. Y’know my frustrations and limitations based in reality, that were dismissed as automatic reactions/ faulty hard drive/ broken record/ unreasonable.
Note: Ha, just googled unreasonable: a) not guided by or based on good sense, b) beyond the limits of acceptability or fairness. Wow.
I went into burn out: the demands of life exceeded my capacity to cope. The implosion of self, couldn’t manage day to day tasks, losing and recreating my sense of identity, taking on long term approach of rebuilding my life, and, well, its ongoing.
As I’ve said before, in some ways I’m weaker from burn-out, in some ways I’m stronger.
Love to chat if you two and Mark Vicente would like.
DANG! It’s almost as if it was scripted, but I’m sure it wasn’t. It’s just that that stuff just seems to tumble out naturally.
Completely agree, this pod edition was excellent.
O/T. Forbes: Donald Trump’s Newest Billionaire Donors: A Media Heiress, A Scientologist And A Tech Tycoon
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michelatindera/2020/10/06/donald-trumps-newest-billionaire-donors-a-media-heiress-a-scientologist-and-a-tech-tycoon/#102becb96bfa
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Robert Duggan
Net worth: $2.2 billion
Source of wealth: Pharmaceuticals
Contributions to Trump: $5,600 **
Robert Duggan, who Forbes recently profiled for his role as CEO of Summit Therapeutics, donated to Trump in August. The pharma billionaire, who has said he’s given millions to the Church of Scientology, told Forbes that he spent $200,000 for tickets to a Trump fundraiser, though he ended up not actually being able to attend the event. He said he intends to do more to help Trump in the waning days of the race.
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Wow. So much about this….
The thing I “loved” the most is when Mark talked about his “psychotic break” and the darkness of healing and the long road back. I also abhor being consoled with “Get over it” or “You just need to move on” by well-meaning friends and family and just have gratitude for all the blessings in my life.
Thank you Mark. Thank you Leah and Mike.
PS. It would also be fitting that you frame it all within the scope of this podcast and the one that Mike and Leah have been battling for years, and which isn’t certainly ‘relieving’ someone of responsibility.
Wow, I hope that others who have gone through, although maybe just a microcosm of what all of you all have gone through, will listen and watch and learn and read that what they went through they are not alone.
Leah, when you said you were told “get over it”. You think “gee, why didn’t I think of that! Just get over it”.
It’s a righteous fight all of you are fighting! Thank you.
Great episode with Mark. So refreshing to know we exes aren’t alone in this journey. Laughed and cried and laughed again.
Never-ins maybe don’t need to do any self-reflection, maybe they have it all figured out from childhood and never got fooled by anyone. Maybe there are no partisan hacks deceiving anyone outside of Scientology. Could be we ex-Scientologists are the only ones that ever fooled themselves because they wanted to be part of something larger than themselves.
Or maybe the idea that people abuse others by elaborate systems of lying and mental manipulation is part of everyone’s life experience.
Whether you have been a Scientologist or not, the basic process described in this podcast of how you get free of Scientology or NXIVM etc. possibly applies to some part of your life. The only thing that is worse than being stuck in a high-control group is being part of a high-control group and not even knowing it.
Leah and Mike, another great episode. I remember when you asked what we thought of you making a podcast. It was a bit like making a bet but your professionalism has paid off big time. For what it is, the ratings and variety of audiences are increasingly growing. I hope that among them there is also some of the institutions. And that he understands that it is not a religion but something else. The only prayers are directed at money and statistics. It is perhaps the only ‘church’ that does not do charitable works as it is “only for the able to make them more able” and those who are ill or in serious trouble are called ‘down stat’. And low stats in Scn are never to be rewarded.
Ah well, Scientology doesn’t reward the upstats either.
Cece true. They expect one to be always upstat as a normal condition of being, in this way one would contribute to the cult till the last cent or spare of time.
This is why I loosed (got rid of) my “religion”.
Good for you. I like that loosed word 😂
Thank you for speaking up.
I am sorry to complain about something yet again. But there is no volume control for the podcast on the I heart site. I realize I can control the volume by adjusting my PC’s volume level. But since every other podcast site has a separate volume control, I must assume that I just cannot see it and ask if I am somehow missing the control on the Iheart site?
I have just started listening to Epi 11 of the podcast and at the 1:42 min mark (approx) you are talking about the TV show “The Vow” and Leah says there are 9 episodes so far and more to come.
I have searched all my usual sources and I can only find 7 episodes so far. I checked IMDB first of all here:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10222764/episodes?season=1&ref_=tt_eps_sn_1
and at this link you can see that after Epi 1.7, IMDB asks if anyone knows what Epi 1.8 and 1.9 are about. This is always an indication those epis have not yet been broadcast.
Now, I could be wrong about this. I frequently am wrong. But it sure does look like there have only been 7 epis broadcast so far.
There are 9 episodes total.
7 have aired. There are two more to come.
Dear Mike,
I live in SW Oklahoma but am only 11 miles from Texas. I wish any of you who are tired of the shenanigans that go on in East or west coasts would come this way. We are conservative people who care about each other. Property is affordable and several California families have moved here and love the change. Wishing for peace and good health to everyone on this site. God bless you all.
Kati, that sounds good, but I have a “thing” about tornados and the other weather endemic to that area. I even have friends and acquaintences in Oklahoma & North Texas.
Like many others, I am waiting until this edition of the Podcast becomes available. But while I wait I would like to ask a question please.
I see there is both a TV show and a movie titled “The Vow”.
The TV show began just this year and it is def about this cult.
The movie is described in such a way that it may or may not have anything to do with this podcast.
My assumption is that it’s the TV show that is relevant and not the movie. Can anyone confirm this to me?
The TV show is about NXIVM. Not the movie.
I have another question. If the scientologist pay’s for the session that produce the reports wouldn’t he then own those reports? He / she paid for them. It should be the choice of the person who bought the session what they wish to do with the report. The reports have no useful value to the church except to slander the customer paying for the service. The church is not a medical facility so the records would not be of any value from a medical stand point. Churches usually or they used to keep records for births, deaths and baptisms. If you leave the church why can’t you request those records? They would be yours. Also if the church make you sign an agreement to not say anything bad about the church why then do they get to slander your confessions all of there publication. There is proof that they do this because in the Run down Yingling, the attorney that blinks code for I’m lying said that “we hate use confessions but sometimes we have to”.
The “church” also has everyone sign an agreement that the the “church” owns all the files they create and that the individual has no claim to them.
To add to what Mike said in his reply, Scientology has very good reason to hold on to the information from their point of view. The records of every session are reviewed before any new counseling action is taken. A new auditor starting new counseling procedures is supposed to study the folders (read through old session records) to familiarize themselves with what has been done and to be able to provide effective service.
At some points, either when something has gone wrong or some new series of actions are contemplated, the entire record may be reviewed with notes taken about errors or events. This is called a Folder Error Summary.
They also comb through the folders to find and list evil intentions expressed by the person, and look for an e-meter indication called a “rock slam”. These are also used in specific actions beyond the scope of this brief comment.
Finally, when someone is deceased their folders are “sealed” and stored away. The idea is that someone may come back in another life and say that they were “Fred Jones” in their past life. At the point the sealed folders for “Fred Jones” are located and used to provide appropriate counseling for the newly resurrected “Fred Jones”.
I don’t know of any instance where this actually happened, but I wasn’t working in the technical side of the business much. It was very popular in the 80s to claim that you were a Clear in a past life, and this was mostly accepted without evidence on the person’s say-so. But sometime in the 90s Dave Miscavige put an end to that. Probably saw all that cash floating away from people who weren’t willing to pay for the lower level procedures leading up to going Clear.
To accept the reasoning outlined above you have to accept the linear mental progress model of Scientology, with well-defined milestones on an elaborate and highly detailed “Bridge” to total freedom that looks more like a ladder to nowhere in reality. A Stairway to Heaven if you will.
As near as I can tell from fairly trivial study in the actual psychology involved, the linear model is complete horseshit. As is the claim that personal information needs to be retained by Scientology counselors. The potential for abuse is massive, and the legal implications given modern HIPAA regulations and the privacy acts in the EU make it very problematic in the present day. But no prosecutor seems to be inclined to bring the obvious charges.
Even after Laura DeCrescenzo’s lawsuit, where she was allowed to retrieve her folders from the Church, no one else is litigating on this point.
It is actually relevant to the Masterson case, because the counselor that actually performed some of the victim-shaming procedures is suddenly unavailable to the courts. But the folders still exist, Scientology never shreds them. So the evidence is there in writing if the court would just get wise to Scientology’s wiles and subpoena them.
This sounds like it would be a great Law school study. They could do a season on how unethical this is. They are going off a book of rules written in the 1950’s. I already know that the (dead) LRH’s comment made about women being in the wrong place and the wrong time revealing he never meeting a virgin is an assault on all women. The comment was on Toney Ortega’s blog yesterday. If they are following these outdated policies they are committing crimes. Get the students to do the labor, to find the crime against the church. The world would be a better place.
Barbara, I don’t know which crack will be forced wide to bring the rotten edifice down. Will it be labor laws, or privacy laws, or outrage at the abuses, or something we can’t even imagine now?
Or will it just collapse under the weight of its own rigidity, unable to progress into the 21st century?
Barbara –
Also, because they are posing as a “church” to maintain their non-profit status, they position those payments as “donations for services” vs it being positioned as a product they sell. What is interesting however, is that within Europe there have been new laws implemented pertaining to one’s personal information and how it is kept and used. Hopefully the US will move towards something similar. But in the meantime there have been a few commenters here from Europe far better informed than I, who’ve raised the potential impact of these new data protections due to how co$ stores, uses (abuses), and allows access to individuals’ information. I believe it was even investigated a bit in Hungary – but maybe someone else can chime in who might recall the details better.
If you have to explain how smart you are, chances are you aren’t. It’s a flapping red flag for Keith Reniere, and it’s a source of mocking, for good reason. He wasn’t smart, but he appeared to be so to those that…also insist that they too are very smart. They claim, cults attract intelligent people, and yet we are presented with many lines in the sand that were crossed, and obvious ethical conflicts.
Considering the weakness and remedial standards of The Knife, a partial credit on a nonsensical “woo” film promoting Ramtha, and 12 years of willful self interested blindness, why is this story framed through his clouded and uncritical perspective?
The entire narrative is through SOP, “men have a harder time after a break up”, or at least seems to be the premise, while actual victims are part of the validation of their redemption campaign.
This story isn’t about Mark, and yet we are given a truly tragic story with quite superficial half truths and inability to let go of ego.
Well, I am not very smart. I dont understand what you are trying to say here in simple english? I don’t know what “the Knife” is or the “nonsensical ‘woo’ film” you refer to or the “superficial half truths” and who has an inability to let go of their ego?
Whoever may be casting negative aspersions about Mike’s intelligence is just so lucky – OH SO VERY LUCKY that Leah is not in the room. She would skin you alive. I would like to do the same. But I will keep quiet and hope that someone more skilled than I will do it instead.
More than saying how intelligent Mike is, I just want to say that he is the most moral man I have ever known and he has the greatest level of humanity as well.
So much more I would like to say. But I am at a loss for words.
That statement was directed at Mark, who repeats the habit of Keith Reniere of informing you of his intelligence at every opportunity.
I stand corrected and I apologize to anyone to whom my error caused any hurt feelings. But I welcome this chance to add something about Mike.
I am amazed that anyone could have suffered the amount of abuse, ingratitude and many other antonyms for “gratitude” and could have come out of that misery with a fairly calm and level-headed disposition.
That is amazing. But for someone who was born into this cult, I find it more than amazing and my conclusion is that Mike is made of some great stuff. I have never stated my opinions of Mike before. But I see no reason not to take this opportunity to proffer my opinions of Mike. I am so very glad to have met Mike (even though I have never physically met him) and to have found this blog.
Right, because who am I to not nod in unison with the rest of you? Nobody. I’m an insignificant speck in the universe with WiFi. Everyone here wanted an audience, here I am.
Does that mean you just posted a show in which you didn’t do research, and let your guest mirror the same methods used by the cult he just left?
Mark has a long history of being blind to the world around him, and it’s great that he’s figuring things out, but that entitled white savior bullshit has got to stop. Why do we need one more man explaining the obvious shit he just figured out? Welcome to Monday.
The criticism leveled at Mark is for being a participant and a perpetrator. A board member, founder of The Knife- a propaganda outlet, owner of two centers, participant in evidence tampering. That’s from the people that like him. There’s a reason people calmly say, “ He knew”. “Not everything, but he knew”.
Can you imagine listening to the same interview you just posted of a high ranking, financially staked former Scientologist, that was close friends with Miscavige? I think the two of you would lose it. This interview thankfully made some important and uncomfortable points, and I specifically mean those made by Leah.
My point is there’s a gaping hole you helped cover. It has everything to do with the accountability of all those years, that predate DOS. and using the privilege he abused, to profit from a redemption tour. Those women that predate him, that got out without having to be convinced, they’re the experts on the subject Mark is just attaching his training wheels to.
You let him create a strawman, just like Keith, of nebulous cult members criticizing his actions based on fabrication, to explain away criticism. Sound familiar?
I don’t think he’s helping anyone by speaking with authority on something he doesn’t completely understand, for profit. AGAIN. Take a seat. He hasn’t learned to read the room yet.
There are hundreds of people that have yet to speak out and here is Mark, dominating the narrative that contradicts. The contrast is stark.
If a close, long term, high ranking member of COS did the same and manipulated media to be the first to empathize with before letting the bad stuff out,,how would that sit with you? Do you think that would be worth a more critical interview?
I take it this is also intended to be a veiled criticism of me. You have a very indirect way of writing.
You have a lot of things to say about Mark’s failures. You won’t even stand up and announce your real name? Have you done anything to correct the wrongs you speak of other than post anonymous comments on a blog?
I didn’t see an answer to any of my questions.
Would that kind of interview have been acceptable to you if Mark were a high ranking buddy of Miscavige?
Sure. I have no idea what you find so objectionable, but I’m not going to spend more time trying to understand the points you don’t seem to want to make simply and clearly.
Sorry Pebble but what’s the exact point you are trying to get to us? I don’t know if you have been (or still are) involved in any cult, but you mean people can’t wake up and change?,
What does his sex or his skin colour have to do with his message?
For all your race-baiting misandry, you provide no evidence to support your claims.
No examples of any “superficial half truths.”
You even accuse him of a logical fallacy whilst at the same appealing to authority, appealing to purity, appealing to motive and poisoning the well.
You don’t like the guy, I get it.
What else are you trying to say?
PS. It would also be fitting that you frame it all within the scope of this podcast and the one that Mike and Leah have been battling for years, and which isn’t certainly ‘relieving’ someone of responsibility.
Can’t wait to listen to this. I’ve been watching The Vow and just last night I was thinking Mark Vincente is the Mike Rinder of NXIVM. The enforcer who sees the light & tries to right the wrongs. Should be an interesting interview
Cannot wait to hear this upcoming episode.I did watch The Vow on HBO.I am just happy their former leader is in prison now.
I am a little happy as well. But I will be more happy when the leader of the scam is in jail too.
Many people here refer to him as the “Dwarfenfuhrer”. I like to call him TED (The Evil Dwarf). But I have a question. Do you think that if he is put in jail too, will they put both of them in the same cell?
That would be a good way for them to practice their nasty sexual explorations on each other. Maybe they might also get ahold of some of the tools they might need to do some real medical type examinations – real up close and personal. That might have the additional outcome of causing them both to just stay away from those kinds of fiendish conduct in the future
Skylar
I don’t know you but you are driving me crazy with your inane comments and observations. Many of the things you ask have been answered or are pretty self explanatory. I’m sorry but I can’t take much more of your 50 questions about every post. I’m just going to scroll on by your comments. I give Mike credit for answering them. Sorry can’t take it anymore.
Lynn,
I understand your opinion and it would be useful if this board had an “Ignore” tool that would enable people to specify a list of names and all posts made by those people would then be hidden from that person. Many other message boards have that tool.
If you are interested and you have any technical experience in the area of programming, there is an excellent tool called, “Autohotkey” that can be described as a macro language that would enable you to create your own Ignore tool for this blog. It is freely available and you can download and install it in a few minutes. It has many other features – especially for creating macros – that you are bound to find useful.
Good luck to you and believe it or not, I will try to absorb your opinion and make use of it.
I’ve followed NXIVM pretty closely, and am quite familiar with Vicente. While he was one of the few who was bothered by what he saw and finally spoke up, and thus I think is an admirable character, before NXIVM he was also in the Ramtha cult and related to that helped produce the What the Bleep Do We Know!? movie presenting various pseudo-science ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Bleep_Do_We_Know!%3F ) so I don’t think he’s exactly a strong critical thinker.
Given his experience he seems like a good person to have on a podcast addressing these subjects, and I’ll make sure to listen to the podcast as soon as the link becomes available. But I’d suggest listening to him with a critical ear.
Agreed, but I’d like to expand that view to ALL persons we give an ear to. As a student and teacher of Comparative Religions, I’ve found every religious and spiritual belief even agnostics use those beliefs to shape our concepts of the world around us. We often and unconsciously view and judge others and events from the perception of our spiritual beliefs. There is a deep seated need within us to search for our origins and paths in life. A spiritual quest resides within us all. Making us vulnerable and pliable to religious charlatans. It is very difficult to escape a prison we have freely built ourselves brick by brick. A common factor in that escape lies within the absolute confrontation with a recognizable untruth that we can no longer turn away from. As Captain Kirk stated, We must boldly go where no man has gone before . We must go deep into the recesses of our own mind to confront and shatter.
Agreed, but I’d like to expand that view to ALL persons we give an ear to. As a student and teacher of Comparative Religions, I’ve found every religious and spiritual belief even agnostics use those beliefs to shape our concepts of the world around us. We often and unconsciously view and judge others and events from the perception of our spiritual beliefs. There is a deep seated need within us to search for our origins and paths in life. A spiritual quest resides within us all. Making us vulnerable and pliable to religious charlatans. It is very difficult to escape a prison we have freely built ourselves brick by brick. A common factor in that escape lies within the absolute confrontation with a recognizable untruth that we can no longer turn away from. As Captain Kirk stated, We must boldly go where no one has been before . We must go deep into the recesses of our mind to confront and shatter.
Hah! Ramtha – a channeling “entity”
Brings back a memory. I blew scn around 1980 during what some people call the Great Exodus when hundreds of scientologists blew because of the price increases. Several blown scientologist get together groups started up and I joined one and we discussed other practices and listened to a bunch of channeling tapes,among them a couple by Ramtha.
On one of the tapes someone in the audience exclaimed, “God bless you Ramtha!”. Ramtha instantly replied, “I AM blessed.” Those entities are quick – I guess he didn’t feel like giving any credit to “God”. lol
There were about fifteen of us and we met weekly at someone’s house for about two months. Everyone was mostly interested in improving their own abilities and awareness in scn with little attention on salvaging the planet or other noble goals. It was fun while it lasted.
End of “itsa”
it is a . . .
A rambling on about something, sometimes by a preclear in an auditing session.
Very excited about this podcast. For those of you not watching The Vow – do consider it. It’s an extraordinary piece of work.
Oh man. It just gets better and better.
I have my own sense that KRaniere stole from the business model of LRH; there were just too many coincidences in NXIVM. If Raniere had gotten religious 501c3 he could have played the religion card, accused accusers of religious bigotry, cost the court system a lot of stress and maybe kept himself out of prison. I’m very happy to see that this one bad guy didn’t get away with it.
Really looking forward to listening to what Mark has to say.
Raniere was known to have long been fascinated with Scientology, and NXIVM definitely copies quite a few things from it, probably due in part to some people involved early on having belonged to the CofS and maybe also former mission holder Harry Palmer’s Avatar. It’s certainly a question as to why he didn’t pursue the “religion angle” and, in particular, gain its protections – and it indeed raises disturbing possibilities that he might never have been prosecuted and convicted, if he had done so – though he was trying to frame what he was doing as more of an “executive success” program than an spiritual endeavor.
The other thing to always keep in mind, is that Hubbard mostly stole from others to begin with. Just because something looks like Scientology, doesn’t necessary mean that Hubbard was the source, rather than wherever “source” himself plagiarized the ideas.