It’s always a pleasure to speak with Lloyd Evans. He is so knowledgeable, articulate and even-keeled.
He helped us put together the Jehovah’s Witness special on The Aftermath, and is a valued supporter of our efforts to expose the abuses in scientology, while he carries out his work doing the same with the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
As always, we had a fascinating chat with him on the Fair Game Podcast this week, talking about the similarities between scientology and the JW’s and how the JW’s have grown more scientology-like in their Fair Game-style attacks on those who expose their abuses.
Lloyd mentioned a video when we were talking — The Martyrdom of Jerod Septer. This is an extremely disturbing story. Here is how Lloyd describes it on his John Cedars YouTube channel (for some time Lloyd used the pseudonym John Cedars in his activism): It is widely known that Jehovah’s Witness parents are expected to refuse treatment with blood transfusions for their children, even if this results in their death. In a recent video, Watchtower celebrates this obscene policy with the story of Jerod Septer.
Lloyd has published two books:
How to Escape From Jehovah’s Witnesses
Lloyd, in addition to his books and YouTube channel, also has a couple of websites: JWSurvey.org and The Reluctant Apostate
You can also follow him on Twitter @cedarsjwsurvey and Facebook
I really appreciated your inclusion of JW’s in this conversation about cults. As a born-in survivor from the Jehovah’s Witness cult it is always interesting seeing the journey of others as they wake up. I have now been out of JW’s longer than I was in. I left at 19. Having many years of recovery under my belt I wanted to share a few things I needed to do and learn to help me learn who I was and recover as a human from such a high control group.
*I had to go through doctrine with fresh eyes and figure out what I thought about the Bible since this was the “authority” book for JW’s. I needed to learn how I felt about everything without the influence of another person trying to tell me.
*Which brings me to another point, people who are raised in a high control group can be vulnerable to falling into another high control group much like children of alcoholics often end up with alcoholics. Insanity is normal for us. Being controlled can feel comforting. This is dangerous. Like Steve Hassan says, any group that tells you what to think or who you are is suspect. Be cautious with religions. All of them. Any group that has people at the top who have something to gain like power or money can be a sign of another cult. I wish you would talk about this more on the show.
*I did many things that were forbidden as a JW. I was a rebel and went to college. Higher education was forbidden so after I left I didn’t stop. I now have a Ph.D. in education. This is how I reacted to being told I could never go and wasn’t smart enough because I was a woman. Was this healthy? Maybe or maybe not but I am better for it. But I think it is healthy to make up for missed life learning and missed academic learning if you feel remis for having missed it.
*I read everything I could about cults and everything. Like Scientology, reading and learning outside of church books were not encourages as a JW. I read about history and religion. I spoke to people with actual knowledge about Biblical history, not church people but scholars. Even today, I watched The Vow, I watched Going Clear, everything to help me stay sharp and informed about cults and their latest tactics.
*I got involved in a recovery forum with others recovering from Jehovah’s Witnesses. It helped me work through many things.
Today I no longer think of myself as an ex JW. I know who I am. My mother is still in so my advocacy is limited because she will cut ties with me if I were to get too involved. I was involved enough in the past to have many opportunities to assist others in getting free from the thinking of JW. I no longer have an inward need to make up for my time as a JW.
I am open to talk to anyone about what life is like 20 years after getting out. As a JW. I was a regular pioneer, my step-father was a high-ranking elder, and our family, the example family on the outside. I have no regrets.
Bethany
Always a pleasure to hear Lloyd guest on a podcast. I’ve been binging The Aftermath since it went up on Netflix and it led me back here to your blog. After I blew. one of the first things I did was binge watch the first two seasons (that’s all that was out at the time, Oct 2018) and I still take a lot of comfort from the show. I appreciate what you & Leah are doing.
I just now found a news item about the JW and how they are being sued for torturing a young women by forcing her to listen to a recording of her rape over and over again for hours. Here is a link:
https://news.yahoo.com/jehovah-witness-elders-made-teen-232120784.html
I am posting this because this thread concerns the JW and I hope it may be of interest to people who are reading this thread.
Wow, interesting
Mike,
Sorry you feel that way about my comment. I was making a comparison that I feel is very accurate. I wasn’t trying to start trouble. A cult is a cult, it doesn’t matter if it isn’t a religion. They both are trying to brainwash, breakup families, ruin the lives of anyone that disagrees, etc. That is all I was saying. Also pointing out when Scientology successfully buys their way into the MSM, you will be the first to go. That should worry you and Leah. I hope it doesn’t happen but it could. Have a nice day.
Glad you understand. Steve Hassan wrote a very compelling book entitled the Cult of Trump and he is an expert on cults. So, it’s a matter of political perspective. I don’t need to look to other things in society to compare to scientology — I prefer to look at scientology itself. That is the cult I am interested in ending, not the Democratic Party or the Republican Party. There are plenty of people fighting about that. Not enough fighting for the victims of scientology.
What a great interview. Lloyd is so engaging and delightful to listen to. Love his “Win – Win” philosophy.
I am a long time listener. I am now convinced more than ever that Liberals are a more evil, hateful cult than both JW and Scientology combined. They use the same tactics as the so called “religions” when they are questioned or when people leave. You are blacklisted and targeted (fair gamed) if you speak out against liberals. They want to start keeping lists of people that don’t agree with them. Does that sound familiar? The only thing that JW and Scientology are missing is control of the MSM. As soon as they figure out how to get the media on their side, it’s over. I think you need a podcast about someone leaving the democrats/liberal party. I suggest speaking to Candace Owens or Brandon Straka. They have both left and have been targeted. One is black and the other is gay. They are getting hate from all sides over actually thinking for themselves. JWs, Scientologist, and Democrats hate when people do research and question things. Thank you and keep up the good work.
As a new poster, I want you to know we generally don’t include political commentary here. I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are not deliberately trying to steer things off the very important topic of cult abuses. So you know, there will be no responses to this comment.
Yours is an entirely partisan firestarter which will derail the blog into partisan flamethrowing. There are plenty of places for you to express your political views — here is not one of them.
Really learned a lot watching this and had me doing some searches to see the links from the Mormon church to FDLS and the Lighthouse pamphlets that I thinks was the name of what are sometimes left at our door. On occasion a few people would show up and hand out literature and I was always polite, which they seemed to appreciate.
I hadn’t thought much about any of this but did remember that I did go to school with Jehovah’s witnesses and would not have even know that if someone hadn’t told me. I also remembered that one of my uncles joined the Jehovah’s witness church long before I ever really knew him but do remember some talk about it.
Anyway, thank you for this informative podcast.
Thanks for whistleblowing Lloyd but I hope you compare things because the JW Watchtower played fast and loose with the biblical text trying to make it align to Russell’s interpretation instead of Russell aligning with God’s interpretation.
Look at the JW New World Translation bible on this verse:
1 Timothy 4:10, Jehovah’s Witness Bible
10 This is why we are working hard and exerting ourselves,+ because we have rested our hope on a living God, who is a Savior+ of all sorts of men,+ especially of faithful ones.
See the “all sorts”. The other texts in Christianity say nothing of “all sorts”.
Here are the other Bibles saying Jesus is Savior of all:
New International Version
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
New Living Translation
This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
English Standard Version
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
Berean Study Bible
To this end we labor and strive, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of everyone, and especially of those who believe.
Berean Literal Bible
For to this we toil and strive, because we have hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
New American Standard Bible
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
New King James Version
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
King James Bible
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Christian Standard Bible
For this reason we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
Contemporary English Version
We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of everyone, but especially of those who have faith. This is why we work and struggle so hard.
Good News Translation
We struggle and work hard, because we have placed our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all and especially of those who believe.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
In fact, we labor and strive for this, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of everyone, especially of those who believe.
International Standard Version
To this end we work hard and struggle, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, that is, of those who believe.
NET Bible
In fact this is why we work hard and struggle, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of believers.
New Heart English Bible
For to this end we both labor and strive, because we have set our trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
A Faithful Version
Now it is for this reason that we are laboring, and we are personally suffering reproach because we have hope in the living God, Who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who are believers.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For because of this we toil and we are reproached, because we hope in THE LIVING GOD, who is the Lifegiver of all of the children of men, especially of believers.
GOD’S WORD® Translation
Certainly, we work hard and struggle to live a godly life, because we place our confidence in the living God. He is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
New American Standard 1977
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
King James 2000 Bible
For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.
American King James Version
For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe.
American Standard Version
For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe.
Douay-Rheims Bible
For therefore we labor and are reviled, because we hope in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of the faithful.
Darby Bible Translation
for, for this we labour and suffer reproach, because we hope in a living God, who is preserver of all men, specially of those that believe.
English Revised Version
For to this end we labour and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe.
Webster’s Bible Translation
For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.
Weymouth New Testament
and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers.
World English Bible
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we have set our trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Young’s Literal Translation
for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men — especially of those believing.
Why is Savior of all right?
I think the Rev. I D Williamson back in 1840 explained it well in his essay The Nature of Salvation:
“I may remark, in passing, that GOD is the Savior of no more than he saves or will save. If ten men are in danger of upsetting a boat, and I go out to save them, you could not call me the savior of ten, unless I saved them. If you saw me launch out for their relief, and knew perfectly well that I would save them, you could with propriety call me the savior of the ten, even before the work was actually done. But if it should turn out, in the end, that I should save but five, then it would prove, that you were mistaken in saying that I was the savior of the ten. So here, God is not the Savior of a soul more than he actually saves. True, that work is not yet accomplished. But the apostle knew that he had engaged in the work, and that he could not fail of success, and therefore he called him the Savior of all men. But should it turn out, in the end, that God should save but a part, then would it be proved that the apostle was wrong, when he called him the “Savior of all men.”
I know it is said, that God OFFERS salvation to all, but it should be remembered that an OFFER of salvation is one thing, and SALVATION ITSELF is another. If I offer to save a man who is drowning, THAT does not save him, neither does it make me his savior from death. God may offer salvation to man, but that does not save him, neither does it make God his Savior. He is the Savior only of as many as he saves. Should any man dispute this, I ask him to go forward to the future world, and as he looks down into that dismal hell, in which he believes, and beholds the multitude of its hopeless inhabitants, let him tell me, if he will, in what sense God is their Savior? It matters not what may have been OFFERED them, what have they RECEIVED? is the question on which your answer must depend. I care not what MEANS may have been put in operation for their salvation. If these means were not EFFECTUAL, and they are not saved, then God is not their SAVIOR, and the apostle labored and suffered reproach for a trust, that was vain and futile in the extreme.”-end quote
You still need to be born again.
I am glad you are whistleblowing but don’t let it stop you from seeking the truth. Isn’t truth important because it reveals deception and error?
Seeking may be the think that let’s you escape the erroneous teachings of men. When you seek you think and why would you want a man in error’s thinking ruling over your own?
The Bible says “As a man thinketh in his heart, so he is.”
“Sow a thought and you reap an action; sow an act and you reap a habit; sow a habit and you reap a character; sow a character and you reap a destiny.”
― Ralph Waldo Emerson
Thanks for reading, Lloyd. God bless. And sorry for being so pedantic but thought you might like to see how some people have the temerity to mess with God’s Word and override His ideas with their own.
Russell is not the only one who’s done it. Mormonism added to God’s Word which is prohibited by Revelation. Islam denies Jesus is the Son of God in violation of Galatians 1. Thomas Jefferson re-wrote the Bible to remove the spiritual and Hitler rewrote it too though most of those copies were found and burned after WWII. A few survived and show he messed with the Ten Commandments.
What hubris, ignorance and error, huh? Seeking to control the interpretation of God’s Word. But people do it.
There has been a documentary on television showing Hitler’s occult connections particularly through Himmler and Dietrich Eckhart, the man Hitler dedicated Mein Kampf too. I never read Mein Kampf but am aware of the connection. They also have
pictures of Hitler in Nuremburg making speeches in front of the Pergamum Altar which is mentioned as Satan’s altar in Revelation. The Nazi roundtable talks reveal he planned to extinguish Christianity one day but was manipulating it in the meantime. Aryanism and evagelism are not compatible belief systems. An Aryan only loves other Aryans whereas an evangelical tries to save all races and groups of people for God because God owns everyone by right of creation.
So think hard and long and be Berean and check things.
Off topic for a moment.
The Freewinds was acquired in 1988 before DM was in full control of Scientology. The ship now needs to be replaced, but it would cost money that DM doesn’t (from my perspective) want to spend.
What happens, now?
otherles, I think it’s hard to say just when DM came into “full” control of the CofS. As for the ship, there are actually older cruise ships still sailing, so I think that in typical Scientology style they will use a mix of sea org slave labor and contractors to keep it afloat. Per Hubbard’s advice they often further reduce outside costs by refusing to pay contractors after work is done, perhaps hoping to get them to settle for less; one of the last times that the ship was in drydock, there was a case of that if I recall correctly.
a newer ship might even be a liability, if the aging ship’s crew (just look at a picture showing all the grayhairs) was unable to learn to deal with its more technologically advanced systems. some day there will have to be a reckoning, but as with many other things Scientology can probably push that out for decades, to the end of Miscavige’s reign. I would hazard a guess that they will keep the existing ship doing day cruises between the ABC islands, and Colombia, for about another decade, and then at some point it will end up docked for years on end.
The only thing that I think would really change the equation, is if they got into real trouble and needed to move a lot of their operations offshore beyond the reach of US authorities. But barring a “black swan” event, I think they will probably dodge that bullet for a couple more decades, too.
I’m half way through this episode and loving it so far. I would love to see a future episode on Mormonism. Just as with Watchtower and Scientology, there are so many mechanisms in common. Also, so many interesting parallels in the lives of both L. Ron Hubbard and Joseph Smith. If I were a person who believed in reincarnation, I would swear they are the same person. I nominate Jonathan Streeter, a friend and sometimes collaborator with Lloyd Evans, as your expert guest on Mormonism.
Always a pleasure to hear Lloyd, as well as Mike and Leah! You guys are an inspiration to so many, including myself. Keep up the good work.
My ex sister in law and family are JW’s. I went to one of their reunions in NC at a huge cole si un. They had 3 above ground pools and hundreds if not thousands of people getting baptized to the “church” I went to their Kingdom Hall during Easter (they call it something else, I forget what it was), and me ex told me not to partake in the communion they hand around as that is only if you are a “chose one.” I had Bible Study with a lady that disassociated with her then 14 year old son, the family up and left him alone in California. The last I heard he turned to the gangs(what else was he supposed to do?) and was considered evil. I was glad to have that experience as I learned this is a cult and not the “true religion “ they claim to be. They did not help anyone in the community unless they were a part of this cult. My ex sister in law raised her kids and now grandkids in this cult, it’s sad really. I still talk to her, but we don’t talk about JW. My ex moved far away from his family and still talks to them, but not about JW
The Jehovahs website jw.org has a lot more traffic and video views than scientology.tv, but the style is similar. However, it seems a lot more real.
The scilons use high pressure sales tactics, but they rarely update their websites. Every change has to be approved at a high level.
There can never be real daily news like at jw.org, only carefully scripted fake news of volunteer ministers holding up anti-drug banners in the Third World and the like.
Mike. I am sorry but I was not able to enjoy your site today during to the comments that Susan kept interrupting with. I don’t comment very often as I just read the article and comments and move on. But even after the first one she kept popping up with more and more stuff not dealing with the subjects at hand. I hope this does not happen everyday as your site is the first I go to everyday.
I think she is done
Sorry for dropping bye. Might start a church for genuine seekers. There are too many atheists online trying to kill genuine discussions on religion.
Ran into one on Facebook trolling a Christian thread the other day while he opined like an armchair psychologist. Of course, he had no psychiatric degree any more than L Ron Hubbard did.
It is the consensus of the psychiatric community that faith is not a delusion in spite of the crackpot evolutionist atheists like Richard Dawkins who go around psychoanalyzing people without a credential so they can mock and cast aspersions on them.
Of course, the Great Psychiatrist is God.
Bye now. Why go where you are not wanted and people are against free thinking and free speech?
Seriously, who follows a man in rebellion to God like L Ron Hubbard and ignores the Son of God? Who chooses a man with a God complex over the real thing? But people do.
God said if people won’t listen then don’t talk to them after two attempts. Shake the sand from your feet and find someone who actually cares.
You could have jumped over my posts instead you preferred to suppress spiritual truth and compromise my ability to speak freely.
No wonder Christ CHOSE his apostles. He knew which ones had the obedient teachable spirit.
And you deserved this correctio, David Bates, because clearly you don’t think all the way through the implications of things before over reacting and trying to control others. Learn that in Scientology? To control others and derail freedom of thinking and speech? That’s what cults do. Mind control. You may not be able to break out of the mental box/prison that manipulators put you in without the dissident showing you how.
But God says “Come reason with Me”. Clearly He respects freethinking and speech. Give all the glory to God for that.
Bye. Why go where people don’t welcome a little strongminded spiritual truth telling? When the truth is what sets you free. I’m no flatterer. God hates flattery.
Nobody has said or done or said anything about free thinking or free speech. You are free to think and speak however you want. This is a blog about scientology and its abuses. That is why people come here. There are plenty of Christian websites where you would be welcome. Freedom of speech is not an unlimited right. That you get offended when someone says you should be sticking to the topic of this blog is your problem and your close-mindedness. You seem to believe everyone should think like you and they re “lost” and “deserving of your correction” if they do not. And you preach about mind control and suppressing spiritual truth?
Do you realize you are turning yourself into an example of what you decry? It’s your way or the highway and you KNOW you are right and everyone else is wrong because God said so?
Take a moment to think for yourself, relax a bit and reflect on your perspective on life. I am sure you will reject this sincerely offered advice, but I give it freely and without malice.
It has been entertaining reading your comments.
You said:
You seem to believe everyone should think like you and they re “lost” and “deserving of your correction”.
I don’t think everyone should think like me because everyone has his own personality but not everyone is discerning.
Do you think it is easy correcting people? It’s not. I correct Christianity’s bad doctrines sometimes and the people who respond back trying to correct me to accept the bad doctrines did not think things very deeply at all or even bother to verify if I was right and they don’t know Greek or Hebrew. They don’t know that the translation of a word can hinge on the time of usage of the word. They just assume the translators are right.
Well I caught Christianity in a doctrinal contradiction that shows a certain key doctrine is wrong.
Assuming is the Achilles heel of most of mankind.
I actually switched from a false belief in eternal torment to the salvation of all because I realized God gave me a free mind and a truly free mind could be more contrarian to groupthink. That He would want me to use my mind to research.
The mind is the battlefield. Joyce Meyers wrote a book on it and the neuroscience expert Caroline Leaf wrote one as well explaining it.
If you are sincerely fighting to expose Scientology good but be careful. All this revisiting of Scientology trauma keeps it going for the traumatized individual. It could engender self pity and that self pity will drag you down into depression’s grip and right onto the psychiatrists couch continuing to relive the trauma at $80 an hour.
God says to forgive and forget and move on.
Sorry to be argumentative. Done with that.
Had an atheist online last week accuse Christians of cowardice because they believe in God . Silly. He assumed and doesn’t know anything about individual Christians at all. He just wanted to mock others while he bragged as if he was all that.
All the apostles except John were martyred for their faith. And John did time in Patmos in a hard labor camp. Does that sound like cowardice or deep seated fearless conviction?
Good luck and God bless!
No more off topic replies from me….lol.
Well said! You are a class act!
I am very much looking forward to this week’s podcast.I watched the episode on Scientology and the Aftermath concerning The Jehovah Witnesses.Mr.Evans was extremely informative on the topic.My late Mom had a younger sister who,at one point in her life,left the Catholic Church to become a Jehovah’s Witness.I was less than ten years old at the time so did not really comprehend why she left our church.I only remember my Mom saying that she was looking for answers she was never going to find.Eventually she left the JW’s and became a Pentecostal.I have not seen her in over forty five years.I have no idea what,or if any at all,religion she practices now.Keep these fantastic podcasts coming,Mike and Leah.
Wow from Catholicism to Scientology to Pentecostalism? Sounds like she’s the real seeker in the family. After what she learned she could never go back to catechism or the popes.
Jesus speaking to his disciples in Matthew 20:
25 But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 26 It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, 28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
There is no office of pope outlined in the scriptures but they allowed millions of non-Catholic Christians to be martyred down through the centuries.
An interesting work on this is called “Pagan Origins of the Catholic Church” on the hope of Israel dot org site.
The symbology of Revelation 18….the red and purple match the colors of the bishops and cardinals.
Christ criticized traditions. They’re deceptive. Who’s more traditional than the Catholic Church and who has more scandals and crimes than she?
Learn your own church’s history.
Read up on the crimes of the popes, the crimes of the Inquisition, the worldwide pedophelia. Read outside sources because the RCC is good at whitewashing and excusing herself.
Why would you ever chant a rosary to Mary? The Bible says no chanting and to pray to the Father in Jesus’ name. Mary prayed to Jesus herself along with the disciples in the Book of Acts.
Sorry if this offends but it is all the simple biblical and historical truth. Read Revelation 18.
Mary “veneration” is thinly disguised Queen of Heaven worship borrowed from the Babylonian religion and the pope wears Dagon the fish god on his head. There is so much pagan symbology merged into Catholicism it truly boggles the mind and many have written on it but sealed off in Catholicism you don’t compare because your cult leader the pope controls what you read.
At one time the popes had the Bible placed on the forbidden books list. No wonder there was a Dark Ages. The Bible is a Christian’s pure clean spiritual food but there are the popes elected by men lording it over people telling them what to think by controlling what they read and substituting the doctrines of men for the holy scriptures given by God to make men wise.
Read the Bible. It says the Bereans were more noble than the Thessalonians. Why? Because they bothered to check what they were told against the scriptures.
Meditate on all this and don’t be afraid to seek. God rewards seekers. We abide in Jesus as per John 15 not in any one denominational group. How dare the RCC usurp God’s authority to kill saints down the centuries? She killed her own reformers. Martin Luther has to run to the elector of Saxony for his life. Go look at Foxe’s Book of Martyrs some time. Look at all the saints dead. Start with what happened to the Waldensians.
Have a blessed day and I hope I didn’t offend but who checked less than a life long Catholic? I had one a few weeks ago pretend the RCC didn’t sell indulgences which is a well established historical fact. You mean Luther laid his life on the line trying to reform the Catholic church for nothing? Try swallowing that one.
May His grace and truth abound to you. In Christ’s love.
Please stop trying to use this site to proselytize
Thank you Mike! I read your site and comments daily, not for that above.
I hope you come to a saving knowledge of God.
From wikipedia on L Ron Hubbard Jr. aka Ron DeWolf, the son of L Ron Hubbard:
Comments about his father:
In 1981 DeWolf wrote his autobiography The Telling of Me, by Me, which he never published.[5]
After detailing how his father taught him the occult, he comments:
What the hell is Dianetics and Scientology? It’s a religion. A religion of self. It’s one man’s religion. One man’s labyrinth. A trip of L. Ron Hubbard’s. A trip he lays on everyone else as ‘the trip,’ their trip, your trip. A science fiction story he wrote and forced into reality within the heads of others by the will of L. Ron Hubbard. The self-created fantasy of one man brought to deadly reality for others by a simple word: agreement.
In the mid-1980s, DeWolf gave several interviews and made sworn statements about his father’s history. He explained that his father had been “deeply involved in the occult and black magic.” Aleister Crowley’s death in 1947 was a pivotal event that led Hubbard to “take over the mantle of the Beast”. “Black magic is the inner core of Scientology”, DeWolf said. “My father did not worship Satan. He thought he was Satan.”[6]
“99% of what my father ever wrote or said about himself is totally untrue”, DeWolf said in a TV interview in 1983.[7] That same year, he told Penthouse magazine that his father was a KGB asset and a drug addict who claimed to be Satan incarnate. According to DeWolf, his father was so close to embattled actor Errol Flynn, that Hubbard regarded Flynn as DeWolf’s adoptive father, and that together Hubbard and Flynn engaged in such illegal activities as drug smuggling and statutory rape.[8] Speaking on WDVM in Washington, DC, in 1983, on the Carol Randolph Morning Break show, he compared Sea Org with the Nazi SS,[9] and described drug importation operations he alleged his father had been involved in, citing organised crime connections in Mexico and Colombia.[10] In his opinion Scientology was little more than a cult that existed to make money.[citation needed] – end quote
Spiritual blindness is real. Buddhism spoke of it even before Paul did in the New Testament. Why does Satan keep people in spiritual blindness so they won’t turn to God and have the veil removed. Maybe because in spiritual blindness people are much more easily manipulated.
God bless to everyone reading. Hope you read the Gospels and Romans 10 in particular. Don’t worry about repentance. It is the gift of God given in His good timing. Sometimes it precedes baptism and sometimes it follows it as John Wesley the founder of Methodism explained.
Remember if you ever need him that Jesus triumped over the devil.
From Colossians 2, ESV
8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits[a] of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities[b] and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.[c]
And remember Romans 10.
Nothing left to say. Bye to everyone reading and God bless!
For any Buddhists reading I think the Buddha if not for the accident of time and place would have been a disciple of Jesus Christ. Their solutions to the dilemma of the passions were different but both knew they were a problem. The Buddha opted for detachment. While Christ laid down his life so people could be reborn spiritually.
The Buddha did not opt for detachment. He used detachment. That is where you are missing the point. Ancient Buddhist texts contain prophesies of Jesus and Christ. I forget the names used. You are in need of dropping the Western Cloak in order to start to understand Buddhism.
Thanks for the correction Mr. White.
Unfortunately, since I rarely do apologetics any more which is done by the Christians who debunk false religion I don’t study other religions as much as I once did. I feel you run a risk of running off course by studying other religions..
Besides God said to study to be approved and He gave His book for free to the world. There is no copyright on the Bible.
A Christian should really be majoring in God’s ways but we have a lot of distractions. I started in apologetics and ended in evangelism. The Bible says so much quarreling spoils the hearers.
I’m like you. Too deep into my belief system to convert plus a lot of sound reasoning even evidence behind it. But faith is more precious than evidence.
Take care. Cya.
Susan, Can you please stop trying to take over Mike’s blog? His blog, and the program on A&E, are designed to talk about the abuses of Scientology. No one is debating your religion. Please feel free to post on another board somewhere that is more along the subject to which you are referring. Thank you very much.
Thank you Mike! Susan has gone from 1 cult to another!
Mike, as moderator, you can just not publish her comments if you so desire. Not saying to do it but just acking your right to do that.
Very upsetting story. In my early youth, I read Christian Science with Mary Baker Edy. There were people refusing medical care back then and they died. When I almost married a Scientologist who was expelled from the JW’s, I got to read the literature. After the Civil War, as I recall, the founder of the JW;s was walking an alley and heard Church singing. He went home and started Bible study groups and founded the JW’s. They all came out on the streets of New York in 1900 to witness the destruction of the world. It never happened.
JW’s at one time visited my home often and would not accept my statues of the Buddha which are in every corner. They claimed I was a devil worshipper. Pelted my son with water balloons back when he was a child. These people get off the rails especially the devout ones.
There’s Masonic influence on the founders of the JWs, the Mormons and perhaps even on L Ron Hubbard. The founder of the JWs is buried under a pyramid a stone’s throw away from a Masonic Lodge. Masonry is incompatible with true Christianity but most people never do the deep belief comparisons to catch it. Even the founder of the Ku Klux Klan was a 33rd degree freemason. The JWs claim to be Christian yet claim Jesus is Michael the archangel. Did they borrow that idea from Masonry? Not sure but some people believe anything told to them. Jesus couldn’t be an angel and the kinsman redeemer of mankind. He was born of Mary to qualify as kinmen to all of mankind. Really with all the bible’s accounts of him being born through Mary and Jesus himself saying in John 10 that he’s the Son of God it makes you wonder how they ever mixed that up.
Also proven to be false prophets by the number of times they claimed the world would end by a certain date but it didn’t.
Many of the revolutions in Europe, North America and even South America are traceable back to freemasons who shared in the Enlightenment thinking. George Washington, Thomas Paine, Ben Franklin, Simon Bolivar, etc. Chris Pinto has an amazing video called “The Hidden Faith of the Founding Fathers” on youtube.
Thank you for the in depth information. I am amazed at how much influence these religious people can generate. I spent a large part of my youth looking at different kinds of religion.
It is easy to see how the JW’s can claim that Jesus is Michael the Archangel.
My experience with the parents of the woman I almost married was also interesting. These JW’s had no room for discussion. They were convinced that they had the truth. In my own personal experience, I have read the Book of Revelation many, many times. I could never understand how my friend Larry could be so convinced it is truth.
Thank you but I will leave off posting soon. I always had a teaching streak but wax too evangelical at times. The Book of Revelation is better understood if you learn the historicist view. Also there is an inward interpretation that the temple of God is man. So we have to die to self to unseat the old selfish beast like self. The self is the antichrist. Anti means in place of. Against is a modern definition of the word anti. So our old selfish natural man sits in the temple of God when God should sit on that temple in a person’s heart. See Eccl 3:18.
The Bible is a multilevel book so it can show an outward meaning and an inward spiritual one. The futurists don’t know but futurism was started by a Jesuit named Ribera to counter the Reformation. They scrapped that school but Darby came across it a few centuries later and popularized it. Revelation is loaded with symbology and hard to understand. Prophecy’s purpose though is not really to foretell events but to show the divine providence of God. If you want to really unearth some hidden biblical truth read the universalists. A good book is The Sacred Secrets of the Sovereignty of God by James Walter Bruggemann. He corrects Arminianism and Calvinism showing how universalism is right using the scriptures. Then follow it up with the free ebook God’s Plan For All or google Creation’s Jubilee by Stephen E Jones. Early in Christianity when politics got to into the mix with Christianity they stopped teaching the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ which is the salvation of all. Jesus saves all as 1 Tim 4:9-11 says though many will have to pass through a future Lake of Fire for purification. Don’t let the law confuse you either. Those in Jesus died to the law of Moses and now follow the law of the Spirit as Romans 7 is quite clear on. If only we had all been raised to speak Greek and Hebrew things would be much clearer for us but we weren’t. Instead of learning God’s Hebrew perspective we had the Roman-Latin perspective forced on us for centuries. Sometimes you have to peel back all the history side by side with the scriptures to get to the truth. The scriptures are the bones. History puts flesh on the bones. Have to honor my word and not evangelize but hope some of this helps you on your truth search. Sorting true spirituality from false religion can be like a really hard jig saw puzzle at times. I feel I located many of the best teachers because I persevered til I found the people who had better skills than me with the very best answers. You can do it too. Just never give up seeking until you put a good picture of what is going on in your head.
God bless!
You are absolutely brilliant in your interpretations. However, you must understand that I have been a Theravada Buddhist for over forty-five years. Buddhism is so much more simple and I find that it works for us. As original Buddhists, we do not even attempt to spread Buddhism as Christians do. The Buddha tried it once and gave up. He said it was pointless. We just let it all rest. I was born in the West and absorbed the religion and the culture. Over forty five years, I undid the Western culture and reached my goals in Buddhism. Good luck to you. May all beings be peaceful, well and happy!
PS. Hubbard had anti-Christ as Scientology, btw
Dear Mike and LLoyd, if you get the chance spend some time on the Tentmaker site and google The Salvation Conspiracy by Dr Ken Vincent and read it. Also google and read “Aion-Aionios” by John Wesley Hanson.
Many groups have tried to counterfeit the Bible and have even introduced keyword translation errors that affect how the world perceives things today.
I know the founder of the JWs changed certain bible keywords and prepositions to make the Word of God match Charles Taze Russell’s interpretations.
Research by reading the short works above.
God must know some people play fast and loose with His texts so he approves of us checking the scriptures and I do believe that includes researching as much as possible. Isn’t researching a form of truth seeking and the truth will set you free of the errors and controlling manipulations of men won’t it? Mentally at least if not physically.
Sorry for your terrible experiences in the JW and Scientology groups but perhaps it has made you both wiser.