With Mary celebrating David’s birthday
Leah and I were very happy to welcome Mary Kahn to the podcast this week.
Hers was one of the most compelling episodes on The Aftermath – telling the story of her breaking away from scientology after completing OT VIII and the fallout with her family. The airing on Netflix has put her in the spotlight once again.
We went into further detail about her story and covered some other topics I am sure everyone will find fascinating. I will include a link to the episode as soon as it is available.
We mention a few items I am including here.
First, the reporting about Hy Levy in the Tampa Bay Times. Hy was one of the leading fundraisers at Flag. If you have not read this article before, it is an absolute must read for insight into the reality of the high pressure sales machine at Flag.
We also talk about what OT 7 is. Tony Ortega ran an excellent series on his blog describing all the levels of the scientology Bridge. Former senior technical supervisor Bruce Hines (who also appeared on The Aftermath) covered OT 7 (Solo NOTs), you can read his description here.
Leah also mentions the quote from Hubbard’s Dianetics about the 7 year old girl receiving a passionate kiss: 
We also talk about “Implant Stations” and the “Between Lives Area.”
This is the definition of implant in Hubbard’s own words from the scientology tech dictionary:
IMPLANT, 1. a painful and forceful means of overwhelming a being with artificial purpose or false concepts in a malicious attempt to control and suppress him. (Aud 71 ASHO) 2 . an electronic means of overwhelming the thetan with a significance. (HCOB 8 May 63) 3 . an unwilling and unknowing receipt of a thought. An intentional installation of fixed ideas, contrasurvival to the thetan. (SH Spec 83, 6612C06)
And then here is some crazy shit from Hubbard — this is NOT science fiction writing. It IS considered part of the “technology” of scientology.
First, from his book History of Man:
And an HCO “Bulletin” from 1963 that describes why these are called implant “stations”… There is an enormous amount of Hubbard jargon in here, sorry, for the sake of brevity I omitted pages of this issue that contain nothing relevant but are every bit as bizarre as what you read here. This is later “tech.”
And a couple of references concerning psychiatry being the cause of all evil on earth that I laid out in an earlier post here.
I very much enjoyed this podcast with guest Mary Kahn.What a brave and wonderful woman she is.She and her family endured forty years of hell.I am so happy she escaped.And please forgive my language but after reading Mr.Rinder’s excerpts of some of LRH’s writings,I am convinced they are worth nothing more than ten pounds of shit in a five pound bag.Keep speaking out,Ms.Kahn and keep those podcasts coming,Leah and Mike.Stay safe and well.
I am wishing everyone here a wonderful Thanksgiving Holiday. Enjoy your time together and lets have a toast to the demise of our favorite cult. Glad to see your smiling faces!
Yo Dave,
Where do we send our Cee Ess Doubleyews for a 30 minute Ell Oh Aye for Thanksgiving ………… Good Buddy?
Contact the US Budget Committee Members who fund the IRS:
https://www.budget.senate.gov/about/committee-members
Since so many of you live in Clearwater, you should make yourselves known to your congressman, Charlie Crist. He is a Democrat on the powerful Appropriations Committee, and a member of the Financial Services and General Government Subcommittee, which has oversight authority over federal agencies, including the IRS.
Sen. Mark Rubio is chair of the Senate Small Business Committee. It’s not a particularly relevant committee, but could be venue for some action. Regardless, Rubio is one of the more influential senators. Sen. Rick Scott is on the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee, which is responsible for oversight of federal agencies, including the IRS.
In normal times, you would form a delegation and visit them in Washington. Since these aren’t normal times, I think the best place to start is their Florida field offices.
Any ex-Scientologists should make themselves known to their senators and representatives, and demand action on the tax exemption, the fraud, and the abuse. Politicians are naturally risk-averse. There is no way they are going to risk getting in the sights of Scientology unless their constituents demand it. Perhaps get your friends and neighbors to watch Aftermath, and then give them something to do, like writing and phoning their congressional delegation and demanding an end to the tax exemption. Or a DOJ investigation. Constituent service is the senators’ and representatives’ bread and butter. They should respond to you. Be professional, but persistent. Ex-Scientologists should become a force that politicians need to pay attention to. In contrast to Scientology, you can represent the voice of reason.
I watched Going Clear several years ago. Nevertheless, Aftermath has been a real eye-opener. I think even politicians would be affected by it if they became aware of it. It’s full of WTF moments that just demand action. Best of luck to you and all the survivors.
Mike wrote the following about Mary Kahn:
“Hers was one of the most compelling episodes on The Aftermath”.
I would like to add something to that for all those people who are interested in learning what the controversy surrounding this cult is all about but have never before watched any of the episodes of Mike and Leah’s TV show, “Scamatology and The Aftermath”.
I would like to express my opinion that if you would like to know more about this TV show but do not feel you have the time to watch all of the episodes (I seem to recall there are perhaps 20 to 30 episodes in total). I would like to suggest that at a minimum you may begin by watching the following three episodes. It is difficult to single out the three “best” episodes and it really depends on what you are looking for. But I would suggest the three most powerful episodes are those featuring:
1) Mary Kahn
2) Mark and Claire Headley
3) Valerie Haney
If you watch only those three episodes, you should get an overall idea of just why there is so much controversy and so much action being taken against this cult.
Please do not think I am suggesting you don’t need to watch any of the other episodes. There are so many episodes that deal with the terrible abuses this cult imposes upon its slaves as well as the horrible lies and methods they use to extort money from people. I am just suggesting these three episodes are among the most powerful and after watching these, most people would have a tremendous desire to watch the rest of the episodes.
In my opinion, this TV show is one of the best ever produced and there are plenty of good reasons why it has won so many awards. If you have any interest in learning about this cult, you couldn’t do much better beyond watching:
1) The movie: Going Clear Scientology and the Prison of Belief.
and
2) The TV show: Scientology and The Aftermath (featuring Mike Rinder and Leah Remini).
Good luck!
EXTORTION!
It is extortions what Mary Kahn and her husband were subjected to by the “Church of Scientology” and their ruthless sales people, aka “Registrars”.
The SOP is: You better cough up your money or else. The main threats are: Knowledge Reports with following ‘ethics’ & ‘justice’ actions, sec checks (interrogations and Orwellian mind-f’@k), getting ostracized and blacklisted, disconnections, ‘SP’-declares, loosing spouse, children and/or other family members and friends …..
A word about KR’s. Many people might guess that a KR just means that someone “squeals” on another person for breaking some rule or guideline and that is followed by several sessions known as “sec checks” (security checks) in which people must sit down and spend hours talking with someone who gives them a hard time under the guise of “helping” them.
But there is a very important component which is often not described and that is these sessions are not free. People must pay to be “helped”. Bottom line? It is just a scummy way of EXTORTING money from the victim. That is the primary goal of the cult. Every little twist and turn in the road costs money and it ain’t CHEAP! It is moocho dinero. Say the wrong word and it will cost you thosands of dollars and seemingly endless sessions where you are berated by a so-called auditor until you can barely resist the urge to wrap your hands around their throat and squeeze the life out of them.
I have never had to endure any such thing. But just thinking about this makes my blood boil. I want to strangle these fuckers and I have never even had to endure any such a thing.
I was just trying to think about the contents of this podcast and I’ve been left to wonder the following ….
Suppose that reading The Bible caused people to get serious and very painful headaches that were comparable to migraine headaches.
Suppose that for every five minutes a person spent reading The Bible, they got a pounding headache that would last for 30 minutes.
If that was true, how many followers of Christianity would you think there would be?
By the way, I am just constructing a silly example to make a point. I am quite certain that reading The Bible never gives people headaches.
But reading what L. Con Man has said never fails to give me a headache. What a freaking lunatic! Trains leaving stations with misdirections to get people to take the wrong train? Talk about a huge freaking lunatic. I don’t wanna even think about that asshole anymore!
So while the podcast was airing freedom and media check started posting their Mary the whistleblower video on their Twitter site… I think my posts are the only one so far so let’s start tweeting like crazy on their site
Mike, good lay out of reference material for listeners who are not familiar with the complex world of Hubbards doctrines and fictional spiritual ascendancy. Amazing I believed that for decades.
Are the comments still being posted?
What a word salad of gobbledygook. Every now and then there’s a brief grouping of words (“a screen on the right”) that paint a picture but it immediately devolves back into – if you can’t dazzle them with brilliance baffle them with bull (something?).
And all of it together is one of those – here’s a few tidbits – create your own story of how it all fits together.
Also, doesn’t this reek of a guy who is used to making 10 cents a word? So the more blather inserted between actual coherent phrases just pads the old bank account.
There’s been inflation, it was a penny a word. I’m so old I remember when a chocolate bar could purchased for a dime.
“Gobbledeygook is a very apt term for what he writes. I surely cannot think of a better word to describe it.
In scn groups “this lifetime” is spoken as casually as “being saved” might be spoken in Christian groups. Once any credence is given to a previous life, a future life or an afterlife then a lot of things can be put in the category of who knows – maybe – unimportant at this time or a host of other agnostic rationalizations.
Most healthy young people don’t spend much time worrying about their mortality anyhow.
The History of Man was not required reading in my 1970’s scn experience. Back then there was no insistence that everything Hubbard said was factual.
The auditing given and received on the lower levels was mundane and earthly in nature. The OT levels where the sci fi cosmology was presented was kept hidden. Current scientologists coming across that stuff on the internet or in the media would probably just “turn the channel”.
Many people are raised as Christians where the fantastical miracles on the Bible are taught as factual so for many people there is a background of belief in the mystical. Atheists and scientific realists consider it nonsense.
etc.
“Back then there was no insistence that everything Hubbard said was factual.”
I joined the cult in the late 70s and at that time there was an insistence that everything Hubbard said was factual. KSW (’65?) and Tech Degrades were required reading (and often required a star-rated checkout) on every course. There might have been an exception for the comm course since it was the very first course in the line up and they didn’t want to scare people off before the hook was set.
I clearly remember a fellow student arguing with a course supervisor about Hubbard not being the fount of all knowledge and that he wanted to think on his own and explore many sources for ideas about the mind and life. That episode went very well for him. He was outta there with his integrity intact. I wish I could have said the same for me. I was a slow learner and it was a decade later before I was able to finally realize what a mind-fuck scientology was and extract myself from the con game.
To piggy-back on Ms. B’s comment: Anyone can read Flubbard’s technical and policy bulletins from the 60’s and note his insistence on his own brilliance and infallibility, which included all of the heavy “ethics” crap, the creation of the Sea Org, the creation of the space opera oatmeal levels, etc.
It amazes me that, in 2020, with all of El Con’s lies, scientific ignorance, greed, and straight criminality exposed, that anyone would insist that dianutty and scienbollocks are remotely benign and/or therapeutic. All of it was an immense Crowleyian con, conceived with the intention to cheat, manipulate, and bankrupt( morally and financially; “do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law” ) those who “bought it”.
Ms B, I’m a slow learner too.
But at least when we got out we knew/learned what we were getting out of sooner or later.
Some people ‘leave’ and really haven’t learned anything of value.
In only the last 6 months I’ve had 2 ‘Xs’ throw lrh solutions at me. Find the 3rd party and another thought I’d criticized her and asked me what withhold was missed!
I was in ’74 and yes, lrh was not to be questioned unless you wanted to spend the rest of days finding MUs. Happy holidays 😘
The idea of the Marcab invasion was copied from books written by Blavatsky’s followers published about twenty years after her death. These were Theosophical texts written about 1911 the year Hubbard was born. Hubbard copied the name and changed the basic story behind the texts. In Theosophical references, which were group clairvoyance similar to the History of Man, the Marcab leader landed in the Middle East. He was a genetic mixture of primordial forces and spirit. He had a wife and family and possibly started the Aryan race on earth migrating North after his political banishment, although it is speculation. These texts by Blavatsky’s followers were later picked up by Hitler and his Nazi followers. Hubbard as a fascist would have written History of Man and followed the basic ideas. Original OT VIII revealed that all of this was controlled by mental telepathy from outer space. The between lives area in OT VIII was in a timeless dimension between universes. Hubbard was a total contradiction. He claims to have fought the Marcabs but he also claims to have invented them. Hubbard was the supreme dreamer of nightmares.
“Walter Mitty” fantasies can be fun. A few years ago I was engaging in a “Rock Star” type fantasy which was fun. It continued to be more and more fun and it kept rolling along and eventually it started taking on a life of its own! A day and a half later I yanked myself out of it by saying “Go do some MEST work!!” which I did. Phew!
As well as a supreme dreamer of nightmares maybe Hubbard engaged in fantasies about being notable past figures in earth, galactic and universal history.
As he became more famous and wealthy with dedicated followers and with his big ego maybe he believed some of them to be true. That’s just some speculation to add to the list.
Walter Mitty is mentally stable, but suffers from PTSD. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder can be described as an anxiety disorder that is characterized by reliving a psychological traumatic situation through nightmares and flashbacks, even when there is no present harm to the individual.
fits Hubbard
Walter Mitty is a fictional character who daydreams about being a hero. My daydream coupled with my ego led to a runaway fantasy. I won’t do that again – haha
I learned something about how unrestricted imagination might lead to an actual mental disorder.
Scientology, a nightmare on steroids.
Wait a doggone minute, am I to infer that Farsec’s not real?
Scribe…
Nooooo, that’s simply your reactive mind kicking in. Follow El Con’s
“taped path” to spiritual freedom and the truth shall be revealed!
Cha ching!😎
Flew to Farsec in three parsecs, got a Sec Check, ’twas a train wreck.
Dreck…on the holodeck…😎
Report stations on Mars?
Where did he claim he secured this information?
A little birdie told him?
Even Moses came up with the evocative burning bush story. At least his 10 commandments were rational rules of the road. Don’t kill. Don’t covet. Love your neighbor etc.
But this insanity? Wow.
Before I watched Aftermath, and later started reading this blog, what I knew about Scientology was bad enough that I determined it was a cult.
Reading these documents and learning what’s going on behind the curtain in detail, I’m shocked at how many people fell for these lies.
My immediate hunch is that it attracts adults laden with insecurities and a desperate need to feel “special” and “chosen.” Broken, lost people with low self esteem who are easily exploited.
I exclude children and even early 20-something’s still trying to figure out who they are.
I have to wonder if Hubbard started out knowing his sci-fi explanations were fabricated lies then he collapsed into believing them himself because he had a predisposition for utter madness.
Mary, I agree, but I also think it attracted, especially in the beginning, genuinely caring people – people who want to help others as well as themselves. Unfortunately, by the time most of them get to the pure insanity part, they are already brainwashed and deep in debt – don’t want all that $$$ to have gone for nothing, is my guess. As well, the brainwashing exercises have begun to remove the caring aspect of their personalities, replacing it with the “Greatest Good for the Greatest Number of – can’t remember- ”
So sad.
Briget: I’m not judging and sorry if it sounded that way. People who are insecure with low self esteem and a. need to feel special, can also be very caring people.
We all have moments of feeling insecure or low on self esteem at times.
I’m wondering what separates those who sign on from those who hear the sales pitch yet do not sign on and walk away.
What separates those who join from those who don’t, is one thing and that thing is different for everyone. It doesn’t matter how secure, confident, successful, or intelligent a person may be. If he thinks the cult offers something desirable, he may blind himself to the warning signs. People can see what they want to see.
People don’t follow someone unless they believe that person actually cares about them, wants to help them, and has special knowledge about how to help them. Once a con artist gains a mark’s trust it is all over.
It is no different than the people that get drawn into Ponzi schemes or any other con. An egotistical, overly confident person is just as vulnerable as someone with low self esteem. No matter who you are, a good con artist can find your weakness and exploit it.
True. I read somewhere that con man is short for confidence man. They gain your confidence and you’re hooked.
That is key, “gain your confidence and you’re hooked.”
Former-ins have an array of “hatting” experiences where we were instructed how to entice a new person. One I heard had to do with drawing in a VERY successful “upstat” (high producing, up statistic) person: “You either get them while they are up high and doing well—explain how Scientology will help them stay there. Or you get them after they have achieved stratospheric success and crashed—explain how Scientology will get them back to a stellar level of success.”
It did seem, while in, there was AN ANSWER FOR EVERYTHING. In career, if someone is not succeeding and they appear to lack discipline, Ethics Officer or other will school the person into getting disciplined and adhering more rigorously to rules. If, on the other hand, a person is seeming to follow all policy, all rules, is demonstrating good discipline in their conduct, a staff member will show them LRH revelations about “all the captains of industry are pirates and bums.” In other words: bend some rules, “disagree,” you are too MUCH in agreement with all your uptightness and insistence on rule-bound living.
Something for every person and every situation. Part of the trap.
Yes when Hubtard said he had “all the answers”, he meant he could come up with an answer for anything. Anyone can come up with answers as long as the answers don’t have to make sense.
Hi Mary Snow,
If you haven’t checked out Lifton’s 8 criteria for thought reform, as well as Margaret Singer’s and Steve Hassan’s similar models of thought reform/undue influence, give ’em a gander…They are all concise, comprehensive, clear summations of how cults operate and describe the insidious process of ensnaring converts…
And, yes, I agree with your observation that many people who get involved in these kinds of groups have problems with insecurity/low self-esteem. I was definitely one of those people, but I thought that I could “solve” my problems with “the tech”; I was more interested in finding relief from my angst than in feeling “superior” to others…Alas, THAT did not pan out so well !😂😂😂
Thanks. I’ll look into the sources you provided.
Again, I apologize for my bluntness. To clarify on my comment about wanting to be special, there’s nothing wrong with it. It’s human nature. It’s woven into our society — to succeed, to rise through the ranks, to be special.
Many a “sales pitch” is designed to hit those buttons. Add in celebrity endorsements, and people are primed to buy all sorts of things.
I’m wondering why the scientology sales pitch hooks some people while others walk away. What specific button do they press that they hook people who end up staying in the cult.
Your reading recommendations may help me figure that out. Thanks again.
Hey, I appreciate your bluntness. I encountered plenty of people in the cult who really bought into that whole “we are the special ones” schtick and were insufferable assholes.
Jon Atack has written eloquently about the hypnotic aspects of scientology; that’s a HUGE component of the mind fuck.
Mary Snow: Along with Mark, appreciate your bluntness. Not offended by your inquiry and comments here. It’s refreshing and you are inviting new thoughts.
“I’m shocked at how many people fell for these lies.”
You might be asking for an explanation of the aptly named “Prison of Belief”. Welcome to the rabbit hole.
From your previous comments you seem to have a few “mystical” beliefs of your own. Big topic.
I hear you. It’s true I went on a long spiritual journey trying to understand. It was largely a solitary journey.
At the end, the only “belief” I had was the one I started the journey with and wanted to confirm: that there is a spiritual component in the human experience.
Other than that, all I have are theories on a range of “mystical” and “metaphysical” topics. I make no claim to know the definitive answers. I hold no “beliefs” on what those answers may be. And I’ve surrendered to the reality I’ll never know.
However, along my path I read and listened to many fakes and charlatans. It always frustrated me that people got sucked in and exploited by them. I guess my frustration was triggered when I read these documents and my response was way too blunt. I apologize for that.
No big deal. Historically speaking most Scientologists become EX Scientologists figuring things out. Been there done that. 🙂
Mary Kahn……my Heroine……the one who’s statement cut me like a knife….”THEY OWNED ME”….still brings tears to my eyes. To know the courage it took her to get up, reach for & turn that doorknob & WALK OUT on ALL she’s ever known….& lived….fully aware of what that would cost her….COURAGE.
The painful reality to have your child call other family members to more or less “kiss them off/cement a final farewell”….& know there’s nothing anyone can do about it…….to do what he is EXPECTED to do……cut ties & rid himself of outside influences which would pull him away from COS.
So many others who had the balls to blow, escape, leave…..so courageous, brave, strong…..whether it be a planned escape or as in Mike’s case…”THIS IS NUTS”…..their own personal wake up call, lightbulb moment, when everything came to the point they could no longer want to be a participant in this fiasco. When you finally realize this is bullshit….what the Hell AM I doing here, involved in this?
Walking away from one’s spouse, children, extended family & friends…to have the courage to leave it all & start life anew not knowing what will be…that is COURAGE.
Addendum:
I find it totally ludicrous that I’ve just read “implant will wipe out past lives”….. so in essence if your past life is wiped out you will have NO MEMORY of WHO you were, who your parents were, at what stage you were in training….etc….CONVENIENT ISN”T IT……
If you cannot remember your past life you have NO CHANCE to regain the money you PAID IN ADVANCE for FUTURE courses you never received because you DIED before you could receive them.
Therefore COS KEEPS that money & you get NOTHING……
In reality there will never be another “meat body”……… no chance for another life to live or repair the harm done during the previous life…..what’s done it done…to the detriment of all…Too sad.
Holy Turds in a Farsecian Tumbler, Batman!
The Hubbardian Butt-hole track in all of its steamy, fetid glory!
Alas, we degraded, suppressive, sex-loving, reactive meat-sacks do
not possess sufficient “theta” to comprehend the profound genius
on display in these deeply spiritual discourses…
*fart*
😂
Mark is back. LOL – love your posts. So much that I came out of hiding to say hi.
Hi Mark. You do have a way with words. 😉
Idle Morgue! *waves*
May the Borg continue its speedy decline!
Glad that Mike and Leah continue to expose and address
the crimes and abuses of Miss Savage and his horde of
deluded slaves…
I can’t wait to hear this one.
Mike, it just keeps getting better and better. The light you guys are shining on the crazy tek is so brilliant.
I just love that SOLO NOTS and VIII are on Netflix.
It’s down right cathartic.
Big fat Thanks to you and Leah the gang makin it happen.
“The seven-year-old girl who shudders because a man kisses her is not computing; she is reacting to an engram since at seven she should see nothing wrong in a kiss, not even a passionate one.”
That sick bastard.
Is that what he believed excused and justified his own behavior? After all, your parents aren’t your parents and a child is just an adult in a small body. Makes you wonder what went on with the daughter, who by his reasoning, wasn’t his daughter and was an adult in a small body when he kidnapped her and moved her far away.
There are youtube videos of Hy Levy as well – short and informative – and heartbreaking.
I am a great admirer of Mary Kahn. I declare her to be NS (Non-Suppressive) and a VNL (Very Nice Lady). She has reached the the status of JF8 (Jerry’s Favourite Level 8. There is no higher level). Only 3 people have attained this level (ASL and CS are the others). Keep up the good fight Mary. Here’s to Sammy coming home soon.
O/T. A Very Merry Unauthorized Children’s Scientology Pageant streaming 11 times in the coming days.
“Stray Cat Theatre will be streaming its 2008 production of A Very Merry Unauthorized Children’s Scientology Pageant 11 times in the coming days, starting at 7:30 p.m. on Thursday, November 26. The satirical tale, told entirely by a cast of children, tackles both Scientology and its founder, L. Ron Hubbard. Tickets are $15 if one person is screening the musical, or $25 if a group is streaming it together. The final screening is scheduled for 2 p.m. on Sunday, December 6.”
https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/arts/the-best-things-to-do-in-phoenix-thanksgiving-week-2020-11515851
Ticket information:
https://straycattheatre.org/
/
Plenty of … ?
You might also want to briefly explain “GPM” as it occurs frequently.
From the “Dictionary of the secret language of Scientology”
This dictionary has lots of simple King’s English and often humorous definitions of scn lingo.
GPM, Goals Problems Mass. A supposed mass which develops when one is thwarted from reaching a Goal by a Problem or stop.
https://www.bible.ca/scientology-dictonary-terms.htm#index
As a kind reader has explained, GPM is “Goals Problems Mass”, a supposed mass which develops when one is thwarted from reaching a Goal by a Problem or stop.
There is certainly a physiological phenomena when thwarted, so I am not surprised Hubbard found a way to explain it in his universe. 2020 has been quite the year for it!
That “Plenty of” is me being confused by the screenshot of Mike’s earlier post which cuts off mid-sentence.
Hubbard invented names or renamed many things which have some basis in factual reality which is part of the trap.
But, but, … Richard:
Hubbard had a newer, and betterer, and truerrer understanding of those real phenomena so he needed new descriptors . An additional benefit was that nobody needed much schooling or book learning to keep up with his self-defined vocabulary of 600+ words. We can’t have people thinking on their own you know.
On the other hand, some real phenomena for which Hubbard could not understand in the slightest, like LOVE, he twisted other words around to fit into his Hubbard-land-view.
I did benefit from taking some of Hubbard’s ‘discoveries’ and made my life better, a new slant on life as someone wrote. Some of it I Joked&Degraded and moved past.
Jim – Good description +1
To Grisianfarce: During the holiday season, an event wedged between Dec. 24 Christmas Eve service and (same night) Midnight Candlelit Vigil, troubled Catholics can break away from their family feast to attend a “Goals Problems Mass.”
Brilliant! I’ll have to remember that one in 29 days time when I dial into the family get-together.