We are very excited to welcome author, playwright, performance artist, actor and icon Kate Bornstein to the Fair Game Podcast this week.
For those unfamiliar with Kate, she is a prominent figure in the Trans Community. I have known her since the early 70’s when she went by the name Al Bornstein, in fact Lt. Al Bornstein, in the Sea Org on board the Apollo with L. Ron Hubbard.
Lt. Al Bornstein
We talk about Kate’s history in scientology, its homophobia and transphobia, how scientology attempts “pray the gay away” with auditing, Kate’s disconnection, her books and a lot more. She is an engaging, entertaining and fascinating person to talk with.
I will add the link to the episode when it’s available:
Kate’s website: katebornstein.com
These are her books:
- Gender Outlaw: On Men, Women, and the Rest of Us
- A Queer and Pleasant Danger: The true story of a nice Jewish boy who joins the Church of Scientology, and leaves twelve years later to become the lovely lady she is today.
- My New Gender Workbook: A Step-by-Step Guide to Achieving World Peace Through Gender Anarchy and Sex Positivity
- Hello Cruel World: 101 Alternatives to Suicide for Teens, Freaks and Other Outlaws
- Gender Outlaws: The Next Generation
- Nearly Roadkill: An Infobahn Gender Adventure
They are all available at her website:
I reference an earlier post from this blog entitled Scientology Homophobia
The post goes into more detail of Hubbard’s thoughts on the subject and scientology’s practices, and includes all the quotes, but here are the specific ones we reference on the podcast:
DMSMH:
The sexual pervert (and by this term dianetics, to be brief, includes any and all forms of deviation in Dynamic II such as homosexuality, lesbianism, sexual sadism, etc. and all down the catalogue of Ellis and Krafft-Ebing) is actually quite ill physically. Perversion as an illness has so many manifestations that it must be spread through the entire gamut of classes from (1) to (5) above.
Science of Survival: Which classifies homosexuality as 1.1 on the Tone Scale
There are only two answers for the handling of people from 2.0 down on the tone scale, neither one of which has anything to do with reasoning with them or listening to their justification of their acts. The first is to raise them on the tone scale by un-enturbulating some of their theta by any one of the three valid processes. The other is to dispose of them quietly and without sorrow. Adders are safe bedmates compared to people on the lower bands of the tone scale. Not all the beauty nor the handsomeness nor artificial social value nor property can atone for the vicious damage such people do to sane men and women. The sudden and abrupt deletion of all individuals occupying the lower bands of the tone scale from the social order would result in an almost instant rise in the cultural tone and would interrupt the dwindling spiral into which any society may have entered.
A Venezuelan dictator once decided to stop leprosy. He saw that most lepers in his country were also beggars. By the simple expedient of collecting and destroying all the beggars in Venezuela an end was put to leprosy in that country.
The Tone Scale:
Trapped in the Closet episode of South Park:
Follow Kate on Twitter (@KateBornstein)…
There was a lot to absorb, and learn, and appreciate. Actually it answered questions that it would take someone uniquely qualified and brave enough to do so.
About two years ago I was told of someone who decided to have a similar operation. Their parents were very supportive. Listening to this I thought what a blessing that the parents were so understanding and loving and let their child know there was unconditional love there.
What a lovely sentiment, Peggy. Thank you.
Oh Kate, last year I bought a shirt that says : goals for the day, be happy, be kind. I need to be reminded.
Seems like that’s your motto 🙂
I absolutely appreciated this episode! I’m not an ex-Scientologist but an ex-Jehovah’s Witness. My child is gender non-binary, just like the guest on this episode. Luckily I got out of the cult before I had children. It’s already hard for a child outside a cult to deal with all the negativity from others. But, the damage and pain of being in a cult that views LGBTQ as a horrible thing, it’s the kind of damage I’m thankful my child will never experience.I’m sorry Kate had to deal with that kind of treatment and pain. I am glad she can be who she truly is. And thank you for sharing your story and being the voice for the LGBTQ community who are still trapped in a cult and those who have left.
Thank you Jennifer, and bless your heart for being such a supportive mom to your gender nonbinary child.
I’m feeling extremely foolish. I almost got caught up into this organization but thanks to this and many others I read I am getting out. The promises of no longer requiring my psych meds and an end to my constant chronic pain all sounded so appealing. I’ve been in contact with them for about a month. I’ve completed some online courses and was about to start on my books tonight. I have been in daily contact with four different people. I was to start Self Analysis which arrived today. I feel so foolish and fortunate at the same time. Thank you!
Hello F&F. It is only human nature that you would feel foolish. I believe most everyone who gets ensnared by these bastards feels that way. But I would like you to know there is no good reason to punish yourself. These people are experts at the con game. They have spent years and years perfecting their con until it is almost impossible for anyone to escape their trap. They are absolutely experts.
As Mike and Leah have said many times, there are very few prisons that are as powerful as the Prison of Belief – in other words … “Mind Control”. So, please do not beat yourself up. There are a few very easy techniques you can employ to make yourself feel very powerful once more.
One of the best is to make a donation (in any amount you feel comfortable with) to TAF – The Aftermath Foundation. The reason this is such a powerful technique is because every penny you contribute goes towards the dismantling of this creepy cult. So you can feel very good about yourself by donating even a small amount of money. If you would like to know more about TAF and the reasons why you can feel good, just go visit their web site “theaftermathfoundation.org” where they explain exactly where your money will go. Also, you can watch the episode of Mike & Leah’s TV show, “Scamology and The Aftermath” and you will see just how TAF helps people to escape the clutches of these evil monsters and how they will then dismantle this creepy crap!
I thoroughly enjoyed this interview not only because I got a greater understanding of Kate’s journey in the church of scientology but also because I have a greater understanding of Kate’s journey from male to female to neither. It was eyeopening.
One question I have Mike, is do you think it’s possible that one of the reason the church didn’t go after Kate (other than what she already said) was maybe because she discovered Ron was stashing money in a Swiss Bank account and the church didn’t want to stir that pot?
I also appreciated Kate pointing out the phenomenon of getting something out of L12 because she so desperately WANTED that end result and then just grabbed onto that notion of “Now I can BE whatever I want.”
😘💕❤️
I think it could be a very important episode for many people.
Scn is still homophobe and nothing has changed.
A longtime friend of mine is gay and when we were boys I introduced him to scn (as unfortunately I did with many other people). After some time he let go and left.
Officially the reason is that they continued to harass him with requests for money (which is more than true anyway).
But since he preferred to not talk about his homosexuality he kept hearing free and negative comments about gays all the time. Obviously, what hubbard blattered was sacred. So he left.
I add that he is absolutely the opposite of a “1.1” tone or any other bullshit they teach there.
Scn is a time-locked cult. Welded to hubbard’s fascist chatter and built not to evolve or self correct, but dangerously willing to get people entrapped in it.
Ohh this was a real goodie.
Kate is a LEDGE! 👊💥
Scientology’s belief in the genderless thetan and its squillion year history of body flipping/swapping could have been one of the most inclusive religious doctrines of our times. In the face of prevailing opinion, Hubbard could have stood behind it and set a very diferent tone. But no. He mocked the likes of Freud and Catholicism for their sexual obsessions then took a leaf from their playbook.
At one point, admittedly, he did claim homosexuality (and transgenderism) was “as serious as sneezes” – an inevitable consequence of whole track frivolity. Did he update his other materials accordingly? No, he did not.
Towards the end, when his bits clearly no longer did his bidding, he claimed that sex-for-pleasure was a perversion – a crude compulsion rooted in ancient galactic brainwashing.
This is a church led by a guy who banished his own wife to a secret, high security mountain compound. Founded by a guy who confessed his own sexual insecurities, who reportedly beat (at least) two of his wives, abducted his own daughter, drove his son to suicide, and let his third wife take the fall for crimes he himself directed.
This is a church where divorce and disconnection are common, where abortions are coerced, and sexual abuse (including child rape) is the victim’s fault.
In the mid 1970’s while training at the American Saint Hill Organization in LA I did a lot of co-auditng with a gay guy and as long as he didn’t hit on any other scientologists he stayed out of trouble. His explanation for being gay was that he picked up the wrong body type this time around and he had a description of how the mix up occurred.
So he blamed himself?
Nothing ever “just is” in Scientology.
Hub comparing Scn with the Tao (PXL) is laughable.
He didn’t “blame” himself. He was totally comfortable in his sexual identity and I just used “explanation” for lack of a better word and I’m just repeating what he told me. As best I recall what he told me wasn’t in session but even so I observed the first two rules of the auditor’s code and didn’t invalidate him or evaluate for him. If that was his own reality who was I to question? Within the context of scn belief and others with belief in past lives it’s plausible.
I don’t understand the reference to the Tao and couldn’t find a definition for PXL.
Also, I know a gay couple who attend and got married in a Unitarian church. I never asked but I suppose they both have a reality of their relationship with the God of their understanding.
Some religions and people don’t define God or a Universal Intelligence as male or female but rather as a real and tangible “Presence” similar to or the same as the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost which is not perceived as having gender.
Speaking of the Tao, in the past I did a little bit of reading on it and here’s a short quote from Chapter 41 which caught my eye:
Higher people hear of the Tao
They diligently practice it
Average people hear of the Tao
They sometimes keep it and sometimes lose it
Lower people hear of the Tao
They laugh loudly at it
If they do not laugh, it would not be the Tao
If you substitute Scientology for the Tao in the above quote you might have the viewpoint of a true scn believer. lol
Higher people hear of the Tao
They diligently practice it
(Dedicated scientologists On The Bridge)
Average people hear of the Tao
They sometimes keep it and sometimes lose it
(Dilettante scientologists)
Lower people hear of the Tao
They laugh loudly at it
(Wogs)
If they do not laugh, it would not be the Tao
(Human “Bank”, the fourth dynamic engram!)
https://taoism.net/tao/tao-te-ching-online-translation/
Mike, I just joined Amazon Prime and I recall there is a way that I can assign a percentage of all my purchases to the Aftermath Foundation. Can you tell me exactly how I can do that?
Click on “Amazon Smile” on the website and you can nominate The Aftermath Foundation
Thank you Sir!
OK. I registered for The Aftermath Foundation.
For anyone else who may be interested, apparently, if you want a portion of ALL of your purchases on Amazon (currently that portion is 0.5 percent), you must remember to sign into “smile.amazon.com” instead of just “amazon.com” before making any purchases. I have to remember to log into “smile.amazon.com” every time I want to make a purchase or else no money will go to the Foundation.
For example, if I make a purchase for $1,000, Amazon will give The Aftermath Foundation $5. I hope that I have that right. I hope that I understood that correctly. If I am mistaken, please let me know?
Also, I don’t use my phone to access Amazon. I use my desktop Windows PC and an Internet browser. (like Firefox). I suppose most people do almost everything on their phones. But I prefer to use my desktop PC.
I sure do wish there was some way of testing this to make sure that all my purchases do result in a donation to the Aftermath Foundation.
Thanks for your help, Mike.
How do I set this up for my donation amount to go to this?
If you log into Amazon and then enter “Amazon Smile” in the search box, it will explain how to set it up and how it works.
The two most important things (IMHO) to remember are:
1) The Aftermath Foundation has already been set up. So once you start, the process is almost entirely automatic.
2) You must always log into Smile.Amazon.com instead of just Amazon.com.
The only way Amazon will send money to TAF is if you log into Smile.Amazon.com.
Everything I have written applies only to people who use a PC and an Internet Browser to access the web. I’m very sorry but I don’t use my cell phone to access the web.
But, it is very likely you can find good videos showing exactly how to set things up by logging into Youtube and searching for “Amazon Smile”.
If worse comes to worse, you can always go to The Aftermath Foundation and send them a message asking for help. I’m sure they will be happy to help you.
Good Luck!
P.S. If history serves as any guide, Mike will probably tell you just what you need to know in a sentence or two. I’m afraid that I tend to enter a whole lot of info when only a little bit may be needed.
But the best sources of help if you can’t figure it out from my rambling text is to go to TAF and ask them for help or to go to Youtube and search for some videos on how to do it. Or you can wait for Mike or someone else here to come along and explain it all very briefly.
I apologize for posting those O/T remarks about The Aftermath Foundation. I got excited about naming TAF to receive a portion of all my purchases and I guess I just got carried away.
I sincerely apologize to Kate Bornstein for this.
Thank you, Skyler, but you’re not the least bit off topic. Shortly after this episode posted, a young woman posted to my Twitter feed, “HELP, how do I get OUT?” I answered her,
“ Everyone who leaves #scientology does so on their own terms and along their own path. It’s never easy. Not for anyone. Wasn’t for me 30 years ago. It’s a great big NO, I’m not going to take it any more….” And because of your earlier posts, Skyler, I was able to add… “@aftermathfdn will be there to catch you. Luck and love”
So it all works together. Thank you for supporting the Aftermath Foundation.
Why thank you for your kind words Kate. I actually got a lump in my throat reading what you wrote.
Very much looking forward to listening to the podcast.I have attempted to educate myself as much as possible concerning the trans community by watching as many documentaries as I can about the subject.I have two gay nephews who are the sweetest guys you could now.I also have a gay cousin that I did not even know existed until I took one of those DNA tests and found out we were related on my late Mom’s side.So Scientology thinks a person can “pray away the gay”.Lord only knows how many of their celebrity members are so deep in the closet,they are through it and across the street by now.How sad and pathetic it must be to hide who you really are.That would be like someone telling me to pray my Autism away.Not gonna happen.Not today,not ever.And I am not defective.My brain is just wired differently than neurotypicals.And neither gay nor trans people are defective,either.LRH was defective.He was as crazy as crazy can be.
Nancy I think it was a very nice comment. Thank you.
As a queer woman who adores both you and Leah I was very excited to see that Kate was being interviewed on the podcast. As a former Christian, I remember how humiliating and deeply hurtful it was to read biblical passages on the “abomination” of homosexuality. My heart goes out to Kate and any other current or former Scientologist who identifies as LGTBQ+. Hubbard’s words sting, and I’m a never in. I can’t imagine how someone who equates LRH to God would feel reading those passages…thanks for all you do.
All you need to know about Hubbard can be seen in his ‘Tone Scale’. It is used more as a control mechanism via Hubbards insane ‘ethics’ than as a supposed useful tool to live by. What kind of sick mind puts ‘No Sympathy’ above ‘Sympathy’? ‘No Sympathy’ is stuck there right between ‘Anger’ and ‘Covert Hostility’ (which seemed to be where Hubbard put most people who didn’t agree with or live by his tenants ). So ‘No Sympathy’ is bad but ‘Sympathy’ is much worse. And let’s face it most in Scientology right now have ‘No Sympathy’. Where is ‘Love’, ‘Empathy’, ‘Friendship’, and that old cliche ‘Peace’? The ‘Tone Scale’ technically only has 2 positive values. Everything below 3.5 is bad, bad, bad and worse.
Kate is a Pioneer in gender studies. Her books help so many out there that are living every day in a society that has, through religion and politics (just to name two), condemned anyone who is not gender norm. Even though we have made great strides in the past few years we are still just in the infancy of learning and teaching acceptance of ALL people. We are literally taking baby steps but it’s people like Kate that take the huge steps for the rest of us.
One of the saddest things about Kate’s story, to me, is seeing that huge number next to her name on the ‘Disconnection List’ over at ‘The Bunker’. So very long. A parent never gives up on a child. There is always hope. Even though it is dim it’s there. The toxic policies of this so called ‘church’ destroy more lives than they have ever helped. For Kate it has been 13,964 days since she last saw her daughter. Hopefully one day the veil will lift, the bubble will pop and they will be reunited.
Thank you for saying. ❤️
The part about homosexuality/1.1 in SOS is bad enough but it stuns me now that I never truly even THOUGHT about LRH’s point about “disposing”of people who were below 2.0 (whether he meant killing them or “just” putting them in concentration camps) … such as WHO decides which people are low toned? A committee of Scientologists? And WHO appoints THEM? And what is the CRITERIA to be followed in judging them?
And I was on the BC in 2003 the last time I read SOS, so I had already been in Scn over 30 years. I cannot now believe how easily I just didn’t question that insane comment.
You see, this is one of the evils of fundamentalism . You might agree totally with SOME things in the religion, but fundamentalism demands you agree, without question, with EVERYTHING. (and back in the day, one might be called a “cafeteria Catholic” for picking and choosing what Vatican decrees to follow, but you cannot be a “cafeteria scientologist” no matter what the essay on personal integrity says.)
*I read Kate’s book when it first came out. VERY GOOD and fun to read too. I’ll be reading it again.
Ah thanks. The book Gender Outlaw went through an extensive rewrite and is now out in a new edition. Hope you still enjoy it! xox
I want to refer people to Tony Ortega’s story —
“What you didn’t see on ‘I Am Cait’: Kate Bornstein and Caitlyn Jenner at Scientology HQ”
https://tonyortega.org/2016/05/26/what-you-didnt-see-on-i-am-cait-kate-bornstein-and-caitlyn-jenner-at-scientology-hq/
— about an incident during the second season of Caitlyn Jennifer’s TV show “I Am Cait” that never made it into the show.
/
Yes, we talk about this
Do Scientology members have access to Science of Survival and the DMSMH? What happens when members question views of Hubbard they don’t agree with? I guess many people don’t speak about their disagreement with his views, or gloss over it? I probably would, if I were a member and already in the organization.
They are told to fi9nd their misunderstood word. Seriously. And it can get into a very expensive proposition if you argue about it…
Dear @Robin, Every once in a while, you run into someone in the Scientology group who practices, “What is true is what is true FOR YOU, is what you have determined.” In other words, permit and celebrate a person conceiving of and arriving at their own principles and conclusions.
One time, while a student at an org in New York, a new-ish student, very enthusiastic about what she was studying, talked to the Course Supervisor about how Hubbard’s works she was reading (to her) easily lined up with her other field of study: feng shui. The philosophy of feng shui is a practice of arranging the pieces in living spaces in order to create balance with the natural world.
The woman was making a career for herself as a feng shui consultant for homes and businesses. She was expressing her enthusiasm and deep appreciation for the ancient art form.
The Supervisor granted her much interest and enthusiasm right back. He was very encouraging.
I said to him after course time, “That was really cool how you supported that woman who is studying feng shui and granted her so much beingness.” (“Granting beingness” is spoken of in Scientology as a highest virtue to understand and practice.)
“Of course,” the supervisor said back. I could tell, to him, he really understood that piece of Scientology about acknowledging someone’s else’s truth. It does not mean you must take it on yourself. However, it is bad form (as any of us know) to constantly pounce on someone in an attempt to rearrange their thinking and insist they follow only what YOU think.
This ease in granting beingness, sadly, for all the years I was, in practice I found to be the exception, rather than the rule.
Blavatsky never married and lived with Colonel Olcott and they had no sexual relationship. It is speculated that she was trans-sexual with some form of male sex organ. Nobody knows for sure but Hubbard copied extensively from her and never gave her any credit. The “Road to Truth” lecture by Hubbard is pure Blavatsky. Hubbard’s examples are out of her writings although I think he never read her books. He probably heard her theories at the dinner table. I always remember that Hubbard was born in 1911 and very little is known about his early years. As I recall, Hubbard’s father visited him on one of his ships and they had a brief encounter. I do not think it was classified as any kind of love.
Personally, I am 100% Buddhist and we have accepted homosexuals into our Buddhist Vihara. In fact, I classify one of them as a friend. I will always remember his introduction ceremony and I did post it to You-Tube many years ago and need to track it down.
Hey George. I remember reading Blavatsky in the Sixties. She was a hoot, smoking hand rolled cigarettes and sitting down in parlors with her legs wide open as men sit, and encouraging equal rights for women. I loved that, but before I read more I got lost in scientology for 12 years. Afterwards, Blavatsky’s Theosophy didn’t quite do enough for me on my journey from male to female to both and neither. There’s a good piece on a Theosophical viewpoint of gender which, like yourself, accepts today’s nonbinary views in a spirit of friendship. You can read it at https://www.theosophical.org/publications/quest-magazine/4588-gender-fender-bender-if-men-are-from-mars-and-women-are-from-venus-then-where-is-everyone-else-from
Thanks for your thoughtful consideration.
Thanks for the link. I read the article. I have read most of Blavatsky’s works twice and I am a great fan and follower of her. She blew me away. She would throw the butter tray at the dinner table at her guest and scream. She played solitaire all of the time and felt screwed by her closest friends at the end of her life. I traced the male and female idea in her works and she is actually very female. Give me a break – one of her books is “Isis Unveiled”. In my opinion, there is no better way to get lost in the Occult than Blavatsky. She had me trying to turn lead in gold and studying genetic entities in Kabballah. I am planning to read her again. Cannot get enough of her. There is a statue to Colonel Olcott in Sri Lanka for his contribution to the country. He broke the British strangle hold on education and gained freedom for the Sri Lankans. I personally am in debt to him because many new Buddhist teachers emerged after he freed the schools. While the British took an early interest in Sri Lankan culture with the famous translations, tyranny eventually ruled until Olcott saved the country, like the discovery of the Osirian penis as Blavatsky would point out.
George said, “In my opinion, there is no better way to get lost in the Occult than Blavatsky.” That could be like getting “Lost in Space” lol
That said, in the past when you started investigating the Occult roots in scn I enjoyed following along and still do.
Thanks Richard. I cannot stop. Henry Olcott died in 1907; Blavatsky died in 1891 in London. Where are they now is an occult question.
I couldn’t resist doing a follow up. Isis and Osiris were ancient Egyptian human/god hybrids. Here’s something from the internet.
………………………………………………………….
When Osiris became her (Isis) husband, he became the first King of Earth. Set, their brother, was jealous and killed Osiris, sealed up his coffin and threw it in the river Nile. Isis grieved mightily, shredded her robes and chopped off her hair. Then she set out to find the body of her husband so she could bury him with proper honor and respect.
As she searched for her love, she met Queen Astarte in Phoenicia. Making a long story short, Astarte realized that Osiris’s body was hidden in her palace. Isis carried him back to Egypt and hid it in the swamps of the Nile delta while she prepared for his funeral. Her wicked brother, Set, found the coffin, furiously hacked Osiris’s body into 14 pieces, and scattered them in different directions. Searching and searching, Isis recovered thirteen of the pieces. Only his penis was missing (an evil fish ate it), so she made one from gold and wax (some myths say mud or clay). Promptly inventing the rites of embalming, and with her magical powers in full force, Isis brought Osiris back to life and conceived their child Horus. Now that she was no longer grieving, Osiris was free to descend and became the King of the Underworld, ruling over the dead.
oops – I omitted the first line of the quote which explains that intermarriage of family members was permitted to keep the bloodline pure and why Set, Isis, and Osiris were brothers and sisters.
You got me going again George. This is from the interweb and as far as I followed up and know enough. laughter
The Osirian Myths | The Tao of Kemetthetaoofkemet.wordpress.com › 2014/10/23 › the-osiria…
Oct 23, 2014 — … the ancient Egyptians had many different versions of the Osirian Myths. … She makes a penis for him out of gold, and then has sex with him to …
Thanks, Richard! WOW. This is why Blavatsky’s book was titled “Isis Unveiled”.
George – A couple if internet sites I glanced at depict the story of Isis and Osiris as “An Ancient Love Story”. haha