Leah and I talk to our old friend Tony Ortega this week.
Tony has been reporting on scientology for decades and as anyone who reads this blog likely knows, he writes pieces every day relating to scientology at the Underground Bunker. This is the most complete repository of reporting on scientology anywhere. It is an invaluable source of accurate information about scientology.
Though never a scientologist, over the years, Tony has become extremely well-versed in the all things scientology and Hubbard, beyond a surface understanding, he grasps the nuances and makes use of his knowledge to make scientology more understandable to the outside world.
We cover a lot of ground from the legal cases to the Fair Gaming of his and his family.
We discuss Tony’s book about the amazing Paulette Cooper, The Unbreakable Miss Lovely (if you have not read it, I highly recommend it).
We talk about Tony breaking the story of Leah leaving scientology in 2013.
Tony also published the chapter that was not included in Leah’s book Troublemaker about Tom Cruise — you can read it here:
We talk about scientology “arbitration” — I have written a few articles on this blog pointing out the insanity of courts ordering former scientologists to undergo this “religious” ritual. The latest was More on Scientology “Religious Arbitration” which included a legal analysis from a Law Professor, and followed an earlier piece entitled Scientology “Religious Arbitration” — Giving Kangaroo Court’s a Bad Name
We talk about the prosecution of Eric Saldarriaga when he was caught hacking Tony and me. Go to Tony’s story here if you are interested — it links to the earlier pieces describing the saga.
And we spend some time talking about Fair Game, including attempting to frame people — as was done to Paulette Cooper, and I mention the specific Hubbard reference(Intelligence Principles) that lays out how to go about doing this. Hubbard gives some examples, one including the strange name “Gosh Porge.” This is that document.
You can find a lot more of Hubbard’s “technology” for destroying the designated enemies of scientology in this earlier post: Dealing with Critics of Scientology — The L. Ron Hubbard Playbook….
Mike, Leah, and Tony – Great podcast discussion. Including, it inspired me to pop over to Tony’s blog to read his post of the chapter of Leah’s book that was taken out prior to publication concerning some particulars about Tom Cruise.
Everything in it seems plausible. There is much to comment upon, how over-the-top-rigid operations around Cruise have become, and what a departure from the thoughtful, magnanimous person he was early on in his career (widely reported). One item upon which I will remark is what a bad move to discontinue his professional relationship with publicist powerhouse Pat Kingsley.
Anyone reading this who is Data Series trained can spot the outpoints here. An incredibly stupid move, effects of which are felt/seen ongoing. This “dispute” seemed to be entirely about Tom’s insistence that he be able to promote Scientology wherever he goes, whenever he feels like it, in any and all press junkets concerning movies he is publicizing. It is the wrong venue, wrong conversation, movies audiences are a wrong target, Tom is a wrong source, on and on. One of the principles espoused by Hubbard in ethics toolkit is to continue with and strengthen successful actions. This type of evaluation and analysis is also covered in the Data Series.
A historical example mentioned in a Data Series reference was the “outpoint” of famed, well-regarded singer-actor Paul Robeson being recruited to espouse the virtues of communism for the communist party. That is one example of mish-mash mix-up of no one who is following and appreciating the illustrious career of the great vocalist, star of stage and film, Paul Robeson, wants to hear from him about politics, nor will his “message targets” necessarily assign him any credibility on that subject.
A theme we visit on this blog is cognitive dissonance. In the Cruise managerial move, I am looking at how a piece of Hubbard doctrine that does appear useful and workable is discarded for a confident advance into an ongoing (instead) PR dwindling spiral. Cruise’s image and PR over the last 15 years is not good, terrible even with some folks.
If he were invited onto an Oprah discussion with public figures who rely on a spiritual practice, go for it. Or an occasion when Tom has spoken to an elected official about his personal strides made to conquer dyslexia by way of study technology, how it might be helpful in public education. Engage in hearty discourse about Scientology then. But in all these other places and spaces, of course, Pat Kingsley was (is) right. Stick to the purpose.
Ugh. What is this group breeding and nurturing? It’s not love and care for fellow man after all. That a person in Scientology who is a leader with power, resources, and ability can’t even see fit to treat staff around them with surest dignity and care. How is that building a great society? Well, we all know the answer to that.
Leah’s “Truth to Power” award from the International Documentary Association is so well-earned: “The Truth to Power Award… recognizes an individual or institution that has shown conspicuous fortitude, tenacity and resoluteness in holding those in power to account. This inaugural honor goes to actor/producer/author Leah Remini…”
I have to believe that courage and truth will win. Even as Hubbard himself noted, “…truth, though fought, always in the end prevails.” We continue to shine our many lights to serve as disinfectant.
Mike, another great podcast. Thanks.
Heh, just a little productive feedback for you folks who hate Trump.
When you mix your political views with cult recovery podcasts
(much like the several digs against Trump, Trump supporters and assuming they are part of
“Q” mentioned in this podcast)
You are displaying your own cognitive dissonance.
There were several digs against Trump and Trump supporters.
We voted for President Trump and had no idea who “Q” is.
We watch all media, not jut the biased media.
There is way too much fake news to believe much of anything reported.
We did some digging on “Q” and we would have nothing to do with that group.
Come to find out, it has been reported that the left Democrats organized “Q” to make
the Trump supporters look crazy.
Mike, you of all people should know how this works. You were part of that
Scientology branch who manufactured lies about SP’s; those who dare criticize
Scientology or Hubbard.
Everyone, and I mean everyone who choses a political party and listens and reads
to propaganda in the media without doing a thorough fact checking on their own
(much like we should have done in Scientology if the truth had been available )
is vulnerable to being unduly influenced by propaganda.
Do you Trump haters actually believe everything the media reports?
Remember, there are 125 million people that voted for Trump and believe the election
was stolen. This is not based on “reports from the media” but actual testimony and
video tapes the courts chose to ignore. A court of law would call that evidence but
the courts totally suppressed the evidence.
I hope you post this so others can think about this.
Cognitive Dissoance thrives in political arena’s as well as churches and religious sects.
And the Democrats are not immune from it as displayed in the constant Trump bashing
they can’t seem to stop doing.
You, Tony Ortega and Leah Remini all have made your postition about hating Trump very well known. Tony suppresses anyone who dare post anything postitive about Trump on his Blog. Then he kicks you out.
This is how it works.
You seem to at least let a few Trump supporters post their views. They only do it when you do what you did in this last podcast – allow your hate on Trump to seep through.
It is fascinating.
OK, I am posting this, but at the risk of this devolving into a political debate which is NOT what this blog is about. So, I won’t approve any other responses to you.
Our podcast invites guests who know about scientology and cults. We don’t censor people, but generally we try to stick to the subject, not politics.
If there is ever a cult expert who comes on our show that says something positive about Trump, we won’t censor that either. But there is the crux of the problem. Cult experts and those who have reported on cults extensively seem to all have a similar view of Trump as having attributes of a cult leader. One of the most prominent in the field wrote a whole book about it.
I certainly don’t believe everything I read in the media. That is such a silly thing to ask.
The problem with society is that everyone is living in an echo chamber. Watch the Netflix documentary The Social Dilemma.
And I notice what you did: Come to find out, it has been reported that the left Democrats organized “Q” to make the Trump supporters look crazy. Reported by who? Have you actually READ anything about Q or listened to the people who do believe the insanity? They are as hard core Trump supporters as you will ever see. They’re not organized by “left Democrats”
And concerning the “stolen election” — there were dozens and dozens of opportunities for “evidence” to be put forth, including to Republican appointed judges and election officials. They ALL reached the same conclusion. DOesn’t that tell you something? And not sure where you get 125 million people voting for Trump? It was 74 million as I recall. And I would suggest that just as there were not 83 million who voted for “Biden” — they voted “for Trump” because they wanted to vote Republican or Democrat.
Look, your views are your right. I am pretty tolerant, if someone comes on this blog and says they think scientology is great or parts of it are great, they are not censored. In fact, I welcome it as this is a blog ABOUT that. If someone on a podcast of an hour says something about QAnon or Donald Trump or Bill and Hillary Clinton, that doesn’t mean this blog is going to devolve into a political discussion blog. There are plenty of those.
I think you should not be so worried about your politics being called into question because someone expresses their opposing view, and more concerned about the abuses that are ongoing in scientology and use your political passion to put pressure on politicians to do something about it. It doesn’t seem like a good investment of your time to write a long comment here. You are not going to convince anyone to change their mind, just as Tony Ortega isn’t going to convince you to change yours.
Tony, thank you for changing my life, it was the day you reported on Leah’s departure from the cult (thank you Leah). As a 35 plus year veteran and “in” since my teens I dared cross over the line and landed on your site and read. From there I landed on Marty’s site and then Mike’s and well here I am today. I can’t believe it was 2013, it feels like yesterday. For me the greatest reporting on your site is the 30 day count-down of Lisa McPherson’s death. As I write this I still have chills up and down my spine from that situation. I was frequently at Flag for “review”, “clean-up”, etc. etc. so every day that I read your report, I thought, this could have been me or any of my friends. For those of you here that have never read Tony’s count down of this horrific story, I implore you to do so.
You are a great fact finding reporter that are very rare in this day and age. Keep it up I admire you for having the balls to deal with this cult.
PS – I hope you read my comment
Here’s the thing about politicians. They don’t really care about anyone but themselves. They care about others only when these others can further their goals, which is very very seldom not money and/or power. The only way any of them will act against the abuses is if they feel it is in their interests to do so. Therefore, most likely the only way to shove them out of their inertia on this subject is to continue to do what you do to a. get more and more people to demand the politicians do something, and b. reduce Scientology’s power by cutting their flow of new people.
WRITE REVIEWS on line. Leah, Tony and Mike – THANK YOU for all that you have done to relentlessly expose the truth about Scientology. The attacks and fair gaming to you and your family by this so-called “church” are now well known across the planet. Scientology SUCKS. David Miscavige is known as a psycho dictator who beats his slaves and is an alcoholic. Hardly the image Slappy Miscavige wants to portray.
Keep doing what you are doing Mike, Leah and Tony.
It is working. Scientology is SHRINKING and no new members are going in.
You three have done so much damage to this cult we are forever grateful.
You three deserve a Humanitarian with Honors Meritorious, Glorious Awards. The highest there is.
Couragous. Resolute. Warriors for the truth.
You truly are helping the planet by exposing what Scientology really is.
We love you.
Very well said Stat. You certainly don’t have to speak a lot to say a lot. Didn’t some politician say that?
“If it didn’t work last time, why would they try the EXACT SAME THING again?
Because they are in fear for their lives in displeasing Miss Cabbage and so they do all this STUPID SHIT!
Also … because they are STUPID!
“If it didn’t work last time, why would they try the EXACT SAME THING again?”
Oops. Sorry. I neglected to explain the above quotation was taken from this podcast. It was spoken by one of the participants and referred to a member of the cult who tried to pull some fair game dirty trick on Tony’s wife at one time but failed. But then a year later the cult tried the exact same stupid trick again and it failed – of course – because it was recognized as the same stupid trick they had tried the previous year.
continuing to do the same things and expecting a different outcome is one indication of insanity — the inability to connect cause and effect.
scientology is demonstrably a reflection of what was going on in Ron’s life at any time, whether it be something he read of a perceived slight he received in a social setting. It’s also demonstrable in his own words over the years that he had psychological problems, and that he didn’t want the psychs to definitively find them out. The guy was, in his own terms, a walking missed-withhold, with plenty of O/Ws to back things up.
Dear I Yawnalot: Well-stated. As patches of light were flooding into my long-ago Scientology cavern, and my eyes were adjusting (so I could see), I had a pal in similar strait. Together, we would spend hours—WHILE STILL IN—exchanging notes and question-worthy experiences. Both of us were gingerly helping the other, while trying to not actually INFLUENCE the other (which would be “suppressive”), to make our way out.
At one point I said in response to some new dastardly tale of his: “If this is supposed to be so good, why isn’t it?” It was a simultaneous question plus appropriate ACKNOWLEDGEMENT to yet-another shocking crap experience he recounted. Something so blasted wrong that had happened at the hands of some registrar or director of processing. My statement took him aback. Maybe in the presentation world, one might call it “a mic drop.”
So, I said it again: If this is supposed to be so good, then why isn’t it?
Mike. Pls do not publish this post.
I have tried and tried to listen to this podcast with Tony Ortega. I have connected to links from your web site and from Tony’s. I have used Google to search for “Podcast mike rinder tony ortega fair game” and found some other links. I have tested my playback system and it works fine.
But I am unable to play the podcast. I can hear the commercial from Gieco just fine. But that is it.
I don’t expect you to do anything about this. I just want to give you this feedback in case it seems to you that other people are having this same problem.
Doggone it! This was one podcast I really did want to hear too.
A lot of people have had problems this morning. It was an issue with iHeart that affected a lot of podcasts, not just ours. Seems to be OK now — I reloaded the link. Try again. Hope it works now.
O/T. Posted because it relevant to the issue of the mainstreaming of Scientology.
Edge Hill University course REL 3002 – Religion in the 21st Century covers Scientology.
https://www.edgehill.ac.uk/courses/education-and-religion/tab/modules/
* * * * * BEGIN EXCERPT * * * * *
REL 3002 Religion in the 21st Century (20 CREDITS)
Religion in the 21st Century enables you to reflect upon your knowledge about religion in the key challenges and evolutions of religion in the 21st century and, on completion, you will be able to reflect critically on some of the major characteristics of religion in an informed way. You will explore a number of theoretical and methodological problems in the study of religion, and reflect on these in relation to a range of faith traditions such as Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Scientology and various paganisms.
* * * * * END EXCERPT * * * * *
Edge Hill University is a public university in Ormskirk, Lancashire, England. The course Religion in the 21st Century is one of seven possible courses in one area of concentration in the third year of the BA (Hons) Education and Religion program. A student is required to take three of the seven courses. Other courses in different area concentrations are also required in the third year.
/
Students of religion often post on sites like ESMBR asking if any ex scientologists would be willing to converse about their scn experience as they prepare their thesis. Some excellent ones have been already been published. Maybe they pick scn since it’s in the news and they are somewhat familiar with it.
Some or many scholars choose to examine only the ideology of scn for comparison and choose to not delve into the abuses in scn and other religious cults, leaving that to others.
Followed Tony & Mike for a long time now, ESMB (a war zone) for a bit too and even gave Rathbun some credence once upon a time, but that fairy tale had a really bad ending. One point always seems to stand out from my particularly opinionated self and that is if Scientology worked, even a little bit of what Hubbard claimed his tek could do, we wouldn’t be here on this blog & Tony would be covering sports crime or some such thing.
The elephant in the room has been making coffee since 1950!
For those people who may wonder what ESMB stands for, it is “Ex-Scamatologists Message Board”.
It is a very nice message board where people can post about their experiences in this scam or post their opinions on what they think should happen to this cult. Many of your favorite people have made some posts there explaining just what their experiences in this scam were about and how they escaped (if they were in the Sea Org or imprisoned in some kind of location in which they were locked in.
I have found this board to be one of the most enjoyable message boards of them all.
Excited to listen to this episode once it will allow me to download it. Tony is awesome!
This episode can be found on you tube as well.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DLd_p5MQrVeI&ved=2ahUKEwjRnuvQqYDvAhUqyYUKHTG8Cjg4ChCjtAEwBHoECAUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2CwG-EfEp9eUQgv0ymdpIO
Tony is fantastic both as a journalist and as a person. We should all be grateful that we have courageous people speaking out today like Tony, Leah, and Mike.
Thank you Paulette. So happy when you drop in!
I can’t open today’s podcast on anything. I’m guessing Scientology is messing with you guys once again.
Thanks. I have just contacted iHeart as others are reporting problems too.
Mike in case needed is already available also on YouTube
I read this blog. I just don’t often post anything!
That’s OK. Knowing you read it makes me happy!
Paulette, after reading about how you stood up to the Stupid Squirt and pissed right in his eye, I want you to know that I think you must be the most wonderful and courageous person living today of any gender.
I was going to say “most wonderful woman”. But that is kind of like an insult. Why would I limit my statement to only half the population? There is just no reason for that.
Anyway, we are both getting on in years and I just think it would be a terrible tragedy if I had the opportunity to say that to you and failed to find the courage to say that.
I was inspired by your courage and as a result, I found the courage to tell you just what I think of you. I can’t believe that any human being could have ever found the courage to stand up to this cult’s horrible and atrocious “fair game” methods of torture.
Good on you, Darling!
Oh, that’s so nice. Thank you for your kind words. It was a terrible time because the press was scared to write the truth about them and people did not understand how they were destroying lives. Fortunately, with people now like Mike and Leah and Tony and the press no longer cowed by them, the word has gotten out!
Love Mr. Ortega.
My god, Hubbard phrases things weirdly. In the case of bulletins, a lot were taken from tape transcripts, so it makes sense there, but I think he always had a weird way of putting things.
Hi Mike
Nice of you to link to Tony Ortega, Nice if Tony Ortega would link to you someday to. He can write long articles about a subject without even linking to the person the text is about. But linking to himself 10 times. there are plenty examples of this bad habit of selflinking behaviour, forgetting the person in the text.
https://tonyortega.org/2020/07/27/exclusive-the-real-tom-cruise-leah-remini-exposes-scientologys-biggest-asset/
Is it just pure egoism or does Ortega not know better? By linking to them who are subjected to fairgame online he could strenghten their position online (where else)
These links are used often in journalism to don’t repeat all the stuff one has already said previously. It helps the reader. Egocentric is more related to who speaks before looking to the overall contest but thinking to know already everything and judging
Yes could be
Do you think a blogger in any subject that he writes every posts year after year can be rated sucessfull in his external and internal link habits if he never ranks in top 100 on the central theme he/she writes about?
Or is it black belt in seriously bad SEO not to rankt in the top 100 when googling “Scientology”?
I think it is state of the art BAD SEO? Can you find any more example of any blogger who blogs about a theme and does not rank in the central parts? Isen’t it fantastic?
What is your obsession with other people’s supposed “bad SEO”? Like it’s some sort of crime that someone has bad “link habits”? And why go on about it at this blog?
You seem to be both complaining about and rejoicing in his supposed “failures”? What do you care? It’s his blog. If he chooses not to include links that is all his choice.
Please find something more productive to do with your time than come to this blog to complain about the SEO of someone else’s blog…
I think Mike answered you perfectly.
I add that if you don’t like him it’s fine with me but we don’t need to go on.
Be careful about obsessions. These come from internal conflicts, which in turn most of the times come from not being capable to accept the reality of something.
and oh yeah why write about a friendly person and dont link to their website? Any resonable reason?
Ortega is good in linking to himself and ighnoring the central theme of what he write about. this is becomes mostly visible when he writes about persons that are fairgamed by scientology and could need an amplifying link to their websites. Ortega writes about Mike Rinder and Leah Remini but links mostly to himself. And the results is?
Tony has given me plenty of credit. Go away please.
*blows kisses
Lol!
Loosing – Excellent point! Mike and Tony will often explore a subject from different perspectives and because the audience in general tend to visit both blogs and they are both promoted in the FB/Aftermath groups.
Scien…LRH – Tony has linked to Mike in the past. He tends to make a point of it when Mike has particularly important articles, and because he does NOT do it all the time, people understand it’s important and not just affiliate linking, so they visit. He also features static links on every post to promote the Fair Game podcast, the Aftermath series on Netflix and the Scientology Black Ops/7News special in AU that was canceled.
Both blogs are focused on reporting issues we all following regarding scientology as a subject – NOT on infighting.
Jenny thanks. From time to time we are visited here by dudes who have another view of things or even in some cases that they claim to be hubbard who is back. And who am I to judge them?
What may bother me is denial of something that is obvious. I know former scn who still see media and journalists as evil but it is a legacy of the cult and hubbard.
Tony is an excellent and intelligent journalist. He never speaks for generality and attaches abundant evidences. Citing sources and events reported by other media allows him to maintain credibility and always give an impeccable service.
To Jenyfurr and Losing My Religion: Hear, hear. Another tribute to Tony Ortega is if you do email him on anything, anything at all, he gets back to you within a day or two. He will answer any question, direct you to anything else that might be helpful. His level-headedness and patience demonstrate someone aiming to be of service. I have no image of him that is anything other than calm, a deeply attentive listener, well-researched, and diligent individual.
Tony also daily links to the Aftermath series and the Fairgame podcasts.
Cece right. Many times Tony provides us with transcripts from the court trials and a lot of other documents. What a job! There are no own opinions or bla bla. Just facts. This is how one keeps his credibility and gain respect.
About Tony Ortega’s “selflinking”: He ‘self-links’ in reference to info of former articles concerning the respective article — as Mike Rinder does.
You sound trollish and 3.partyish with an undercurrent of 1.1.
This (comment/think) is the/a problem with Xs.
I don’t think I could have gotten $ out of my thought pattern without Tony, his reports and his helpful commentors.
When Tony did his 45 or so days of articals by Jon Atack, I cringed.
I was so full of LRH standards, I could not listen without biases. It then became my problem to rid myself of biases. Study, recognize and my own self replacing biases with truth. It’s taken years but has been worth it. Then I studied various mental illnesses and when recognized in myself, I’ve corrected those one by one.
Tony links to Mike every day in the dissconections list. Perhaps biases keep you from seeing this?
Nobody cares about this (non-)issue. Tony Ortega does more to reveal knowledge everyone needs to hear about Scientology than perhaps anybody else in the whole world.
Corrected to add, does as least as much to reveal knowledge about Scientology as do Mike and Leah. The three are the awesome Troika!
When I look at today’s picture and see Mike & Tony smiling and casually dressed and then contrast that with all the pictures and videos we see of MissCabbage with his $5,000 suits and $400 shirts and the steely look of something important in his eyes (covering up for a whole lot of nothing going on behind those eyes), I take great enjoyment in the experience that history shows that people who get things done are the ones who spend their efforts on doing what needs to be done – not on trying to look like something they are not.
It may take longer than any of us would like. But it feels so good to know this scam is on the steady road down, down, down to oblivion.
Oblivion would be the ideal home for this pile of shit.
Good point Skyler! One is packaged and marketed within an inch of his life (with him pushing it) vs the other two gentlemen who let their work speak for itself. You’d think the co$ would have figured out how disingenuous it comes across when everything appears contrived and over-produced, but growth and genuine personal development are not tools in the co$ arsenal.
Hello Jenyfurrr. So nice to hear from you again. Please come by more often if you are able and let us know your opinions. Always great to hear from you!
Good point all around Jenyfurrr….always a pleasure to see you here. Hope all is well.
Hello Balletlady.
Always a pleasure to see you too. I hope you enjoy this podcast. It promises to be a great one!
Hello Skyler 23 & Jen……..
I so MISS the Aftermath TV Series….I really DO hope that one day we will see new updates with more information on A & E channel.
I LOVE to hear & see every one speak out & stand up for themselves & what they endured thinking in the past that they “signed on” to be a great help to others. With much love to all!
My thoughts & prayers ae with all of you.
During this time of COVID, I am reminded of another time in the history of this planet – namely the time of the French Revolution and the Reign of Terror.
Why would today’s events remind me of that time? Well, I think one of the primary lessons of the French Revolution is that you can push people just so far – very far – but then, when you push them just a little bit further – just a little bit over the line – (“Let them eat cake”), then they will lose their shit and erupt in a torrent of payback taking the form of a stream of guillotines.
All over the country, all people heard was, “KA THUNK! KA THUNK! KA THUNK!” OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!
I am kind of expecting a similar eruption when the time comes to get rid of this horror of atrocities known as the “Crutch of Scamatology”.
So, let the river run red with the blood of the scammers. It may be wrong, but how can something be wrong when it feels so good?
“KA THUNK! KA THUNK! KA THUNK!
My mom’s family came from Alsace Lorraine……..we are also members of DAR….so I hear you completely when it comes to French having moxie!
Sadly for those STILL IN….they STILL BELIEVE. The intelligent smart ones saw the TRUTH & got OUT & started a new life on the outside…with all it’s trials & tribulations, they’re hanging in there..
There are many, or some who will be locked in for life either through fear of what’s on the outside, being disconnected, being abandoned by all they NOW know & feel “safe living”…since its the ONLY life they’ve lead……or being too old to start life anew on the outside when they have no income, no savings, no nothing.
We can only hope the fight continues through free flowing information, investigative reports, & the TRUTH being continually exposed/unveiled.
I really rather see the A & E TV channel bring MORE of the Aftermath to the TV Screen. Podcasts are a great sources of information, but continuing to view it on a TV Series with MORE exposure….is a supreme delight.
Take care everyone……
.
I would also be interested to know if Mike and Tony are currently being fair gamed and if they can talk about it and what they have experienced in the past.
As far as I know the Fair Gaming is being done online. I dont bother to notice whether they are followi9ng me or taking my garbage these days. Who knows if they have hacked my email or listen to my phone calls. They are not doing any “noisy investigations” at this time. I think they got tired of seeing videos of themselves…
The more they stick a pitchfork in you Mike, the more FOOLISH THEY LOOK.
They’ve dug for themselves a hole so deep even they can’t get out of it.
All we hear is “yeah but….yeah but…yeah but…..Cathy & Taryn’s monologue has gotten more then tiresome & repetitive….enough already.
Yes Mike, “we know you’re a bad guy”…(yeah right)…..scheez…..it’s like the song that never ends…it goes on & on my friend….the only change is that they keep embellishing “the story…a few more details are always added….”….It is no longer a story…now their statements have become a trash NOVEL no one wants to read or hear read.
The more dirt they throw the sadder but funnier it gets because they appear to be grasping at straws & throwing mud hoping it will stick. Time for them to “not go away mad….just go away”………the truth is out there & they KNOW it.
They HATE that you are happy, successful, that you’ve moved on in life & have oceans of friends & followers who stand by you…& in some cases in front of you & would deflect any bullets aimed your way.
Stay strong Mike & Chris….the best is yet to come`
For anyone interested, I did a cursory reading of some news articles concerning Eric Saldarriaga and I think I know the result of what happened to him. But I want to stress that I really cannot be certain that I got it right. But after beginning to read about this incident where Mike Rinder and Tony Ortega were both hacked by some Private Detective, I really wanted to find out just what happened to that man (Eric Saldarriaga) and so I read about it and will now present a summary of what happened to him. But please understand that I may well be mistaken and I certainly hope that someone will correct me if I am wrong about this.
The basic summary of these hacking incidents is that the cult took advantage of some P.I. and tasked him with hacking Mike and Tony. He was pretty much an innocent dupe in these incidents but he was sentenced to 3 months in prison with more time probation. He served 3 months in prison and shortly after being released (less than one year after) he developed esophagal cancer and died from that leaving a wife and two young sons. His wife submitted one or more documents to the court attesting to the fact that her husband was a good and decent man who was duped into engaging in these hacking incidents.
My reading of several news stories led me to the conclusion this was a tragic affair and once again this monstrous cult had no problem with causing an innocent family to suffer terrible consequences just so they could engage in some petty vengeance.
Please do let me know if I got any of this wrong? Thank you.
Can anyone tell us the worst kinds or retribution or “fair game” actions this cult took against Tony after he started reporting about the cult?
I’m not necessarily asking for the single worst thing they tried to do to Tony. But if anyone could give us some idea of some of the things they have tried to do, I would really like to know. I’m asking because I have never heard of any incidents where this cult has tried to harm Tony or his friends or family.
They have tried very hard to get his wife fired; they poisoned one of his cats; they’ve followed him from one end of the earth to the next, stalking, filming and harassing him as they go; they tried repeatedly to get him fired from his editorship of the Village Voice; accused him publicly of terrible things (which I won’t repeat here as they’re hateful); stalked his elderly parents, his wife’s family, people he worked with or had previous relationships with; they have hacked him.
Those are just off the top of my head. There aren’t many non-Scientologists who have suffered worse fair game abuse than Tony, but as with most journalists he prefers not to become the story, so he rarely talks about his own experiences with fair game.
In thinking about this post, I just don’t get it why anyone would poison someone’s cat.
Seems to me this is an act that is done with almost zero thinking. After all, you are not going to hurt the person who owns the cat. Of course they will feel incredible outrage and sadness at the loss of their pet. But then, when they think about the person who did this, it seems to me the primary feeling they will have is a very strong desire for revenge.
They may be a highly evolved person and know they really should forgive the person for doing that. But my sense is almost no one is that highly evolved and if the day should ever come when they have the opportunity to strike back at the person who did this, they will be pretty much helpless in lashing out against that person and after having had a very long time to think about how they would strike back, they would likely cause the perpetrator some kind of life-long injury that would put them in the hospital or a wheel chair or leave them with some life-long disability that would make their lives miserable.
The perpetrator would then have to worry about when and how this person may get the opportunity to get their revenge. If they took many years to plan that revenge, there is a good chance they would either do something that would be very hard to attribute to them or they would arrange to have someone else perform the act of revenge.
In either case, the perpetrator would live a very fearful life – not knowing when or how this revenge would be served up to them.
And even if the victim never actually took the law into their own hands, the perpetrator would still have the Law of Karma to worry about. For those of us who know and understand how Karma works, the person who poisoned that cat will almost surely suffer some kind of trauma that was just as bad or worse as the trauma they caused to that innocent victim. I really would never want to be waiting for Karma to come and tap me on the shoulder because I know that tap on the shoulder would be followed by some kind of terrible retribution and I would never want to have to suffer that retribution.
I have heard Tony say in a few different interviews that P.I’s have shown up at his mother’s house a few times. They have tried to get his wife fired from her job on 3 separate occasions. And they have hassled his friends and family.
YEs, that’s all correct
Reading the “Intelligence Principles”, puts me in mind of the orders and directives given to a military operative or something similar. But to speak like that to religious followers??
Thank you very much to Andrea “i-Betty” Garner and Jerry Hack for your info.
I can’t wait. Tony is a walking encyclopedia about scn and its hystory. I listened to other interviews and podcasts and one can learn a lot.
While everybody will enjoy Tony, Leah and you togheter, I believe someone else will have a skyrocketing blood pressure.
Marvelous!
Can’t wait to listen.
Tony is a straight up Hero.
and I love listening to you two together.
Mike and Tony sure do look happy together in the photo at the top of today’s blog. Don’t they?
It makes me happy to see them together. I can just kind of imagine what they are thinking and what they are saying to each other when the camera is not rolling.
I bet they are so happy because after all the torture, torment and atrocities that so many people have suffered at the hands of this filthy cult, this scam is now like a giant gas bag that has half of its gas escaped through a hole and we all can see that it will soon be completely flat and deflated.
Ain’t that joyful? Yippee!!!
Hey guys! I love the podcast and think you’re doing an amazing job of letting people know what’s going on. This one was especially great!
My question is actually stupid but I’m now dying to know what expensive water Tom Cruise drinks. Totally unimportant but now, I’m curious.
Keep up the great work! I look forward to the new episodes every week.
If Ron Hubbard had told scientologists to smile because they were in his grab everyone had left Co$ with a smile.
If the goal is to reach the heaven it’s done by attacs againsts the bad.
Survivers laugh.
lol – That reminds me of a passage from Chapter 41 of the Tao. Not that I know a lot about the Tao, just something that caught my eye.
Higher people hear of the Tao
They diligently practice it
Average people hear of the Tao
They sometimes keep it and sometimes lose it
Lower people hear of the Tao
They laugh loudly at it
If they do not laugh, it would not be the Tao
……………………………………….
Rather all encompassing I might say, sort of like scn presents itself.
What the heck. I might as well post the whole chapter. Maybe general interest for somebody.
Higher people hear of the Tao
They diligently practice it
Average people hear of the Tao
They sometimes keep it and sometimes lose it
Lower people hear of the Tao
They laugh loudly at it
If they do not laugh, it would not be the Tao
Therefore a proverb has the following:
The clear Tao appears unclear
The advancing Tao appears to retreat
The smooth Tao appears uneven
High virtue appears like a valley
Great integrity appears like disgrace
Encompassing virtue appears insufficient
Building virtue appears inactive
True substance appears inconstant
The great square has no corners
The great vessel is late in completion
The great music is imperceptible in sound
The great image has no form
The Tao is hidden and nameless
Yet it is only the Tao
That excels in giving and completing everything
Maybe the Tao is saying in long form what Hubbard and others have said in short form, that absolutes are unattainable so don’t even bother. Just one interpretation – lol
A spirit is so much more than a body.
A body trapped inside a planets ingredients can’t live in space without a recreation of its qualities.
Spirits have no limits.
Tony Ortega’s blog was, at one time, one of the most comprehensive sources of information about Scientology. It started to deteriorate a few years ago when he shunned selected elements of the academic community. There seems to be an underlying core that Scientology, Hubbard and Dianetics are totally bad. As a never-in, he dos not grasp that a few of us have at least a little good to say about the subject. Nevertheless, I congratulate Tony on a job well done.
George I understand what you say and some friend of mine still thinks that wasn’t everything bad.
However scn can’t be reformed. The bad and vicious aspects in it (many in my opinion) will always defeat those possibly good.
I have been on staff for 15 years and after other 15 detoxing myself from the indoctrination and I realized that in the cult anything anybody has to do is only what hubbard wrote and this tun it into a complete ‘reactive’ subject. There is no room for anything ‘analitical’.
I just reread my comment. I had hard time to understand by myself what I wrote.
Okay. I just wanted to say that the scn setting does not allow any good thing there may be to come out and stay there.
Scn is a reactive subject made to act on the stimulus / response principle. You have to do what it is written to do for that situation without having to think about it. Quite aberrative I would say.
Tony shed light on something that would otherwise have fooled thousands and thousands of people.
Good point
Thanks George. Do well.
George,
(besides all the things Tony has done for decades and the bullets he’s taken for us…….)
Every single post Tony posts on his site is a contribution to helping save people from the harmful effects of scientology.
Every single one is valuable.
it irritates me that you use his very vehicles of contribution to bash him.
You turn his good deed for the day into an opportunity to tell people that you don’t think Tony Ortega is as good as you think he should be.
Your congrats have a brassy ring after the screed.
I think your OT 8 is showing.
I appreciate your honesty. Looking over the last fifty years of my life, I can say that Scientology ruined it. However, there is some lasting good that I feel now that I am out. Personally I think there are people out there who could benefit from screwed up Scientology. Tony is not as good as he could be. That is the point; he is inflexible.
50 years of reflection and you still believe there are people out there who “can benefit from screwed up scientology”?
Wow.
I heartily disagree.
For me(yes, first-hand experience), it truly was and IS all bad. It was conceived as a scam. It was run as a scam. It caused the harm and the destruction and the despair that the worse scams do, and it continues to do so. We have the subject itself,a bloated mess of contradictory statements,lies,false claims,campy science fiction,stolen and sloppily plagiarized ideas,grandiose promises, and utterly whack,vile policies and procedures. There’s the well-documented life of Hubbard himself,an abusive,pill-popping,mean-spirited con man. The “academic study” of scientology is the study of organized crime,of the mechanics of undue influence,of the idiosyncracies of a corporate cult run by a brutal autocrat( first Hubbard, now Miscavige). The so-called “benefits” are “achieved” via manipulation,lies,fraud,bait-and switch,indoctrination,milieu control,peer pressure,non-consensual hypnosis…You know,the usual dark,culty fuckery outlined and exposed and explained by folks like Lifton,Singer,Hassan,Atack,Ortega,et al…
So,no,I don’t wish Diuretics and Scienbollocky on anyone, nor do I believe it has any inherent positive value-at all.
You write so well. To be very specific, I had an abusive, violent alcoholic father and Dianetic auditing helped when I was in my late twenties. An few days ago, I hit seventy five so I do not care one bit about what you or anyone else think of me. It is over and done. Over the last fifteen years I have helped about thirty five people who were former Scientologists. The pattern is the same in many cases. Tony Ortega is far, far too negative. There are people in the Indie movement who are trying to solve problems. They have that right. Hubbard was a con artist and Scientology is now a fraud. However, it does not change the effort of millions to understand themselves.
George – I’m about to turn seventy five so naturally I must agree with you. (Just taking a lighter turn here – haha)
I don’t have a reference but somewhere I heard that about one third of all people get “better” no matter what “therapy” they choose.
Also, even though much of the world is turning toward scientific realism there is still great interest in the mystical and the Occult. For that matter all religion is Occult, a belief in the existence of secret, mysterious or supernatural agencies. 😇
Richard, you said it better than I did. People see the flaws in scientific research. It is now more obvious than ever. Science can be contradictory. There was a great rejection of the Occult. The real problem is that Hubbard never understood the Occult and thus gave it a bad name. Scientology is rejected for two reasons: 1. It is non scientific 2. It is false Occult. Someone like Tony Ortega is limited and unwilling to explore. It hits me now. I need to re-study the fundamentals of the Occult. I see a new direction and strategy.
Hey George,
We can disagree and it’s totally fine that you don’t care about what I or anyone else thinks of you-really.
Check out Dr. Gabor Maté, if you haven’t already. I think his ideas and insights might resonate with you. He talks about the effects of our childhood traumas and experiences of abuses on our cognitive and emotional development and their impact on our life-long physical health as well.
Your “wins” were experienced in the conditions I referenced in my comment-and you were already vulnerable and wounded, given the abuse you experienced.
Anyway, I am glad you got out. I am glad that you have helped people get out; THAT is a big deal, as you quite literally saved their lives, in my opinion.
We disagree about Tony, and that’s cool, too. Scientology is truly evil and fucked up, from pillar to post, and he shows that again and again. It’s THE SUBJECT AND ITS CREATOR-and the die-hard, zealous adherents of his who apply/enact his abusive, criminal policies- that are utterly negative, not Tony.
Again, just my opinion.
Thanks for your straightforward, honest answer.
Cheers👍🏽✌🏾
You are welcome, Mark. It is a good sign that I was able to talk about my childhood experiences so freely. I will for sure check out DR Mate. That information is relevant and important. I have helped many people get out of Scientology. People write to me all of the time about OT VIII. The sad part is that sometimes, even if you trash it completely, they ignore the warning. It has given me an excellent picture of the nature of a cult. The discussions on the blog helped me to see the difference between my own personal feelings of being helped by Scientology and the corruption now experienced with Miscavige in charge. It is too easy to blame Scientology for all personal problems, but I have always known that Scientology was never a permanent solution. In fact, it causes further problems like a chain reaction.
Good luck to you.
Mark – Just to add, to my knowledge scn is the only cult which uses an “electro-psychometer” in “formal counselling sessions”. Take away the e-meter and scn loses its edge. The e-meter made Hubbard and now Miscavige wealthy men. IMO
Yes, both Hubbard and Miscavige are “wealthy” men, but what an incredible price they paid for it. Neither were free men. Trapped in their gilded cages of their own creation. Both driven to a state of extreme mental illness.
oh for heaven’s sake. stop it.
I like heaven
Are you as good as you can be?
No, but Richard helped me solve my problem. I was looking at Tony Ortega through scientific eyes. I need to look at him through Occult eyes.
The things that may be taken as good in Scientology are almost always available elsewhere without the baggage that scientology brings along. Hubbard just made stuff up out of thin air or borrowed things. Those were the extent of his vaunted research. Get over it.
Well said. How is a person supposed to know what is accurate and what is BS if they try to learn something through Hubbard? Whatever good stuff Hubbard stole from others, is available in countless books, videos, etc. produced by highly respected individuals. Why would anyone enter Hubbard’s toxic black hole where 99% of the information is bad (for one reason or another), trying to find the few good bits. Why take such a risk?
Susan – In my time before the internet Hubbard said he had synthesized Eastern philosophy and religion and applied Western science to it. He already did the hard work and I didn’t need to read a bunch of books. 😧 😕 😅
It’s not that complicated. It was a fast track to Nirvana so why not give it a try??
It’s not that I had a good idea of what Nirvana was back then. I had a general idea. 💡
My personal “ruin” (reason) for getting into scn was that wog life was getting sort of repetitious and boring and I was looking for something interesting to study. Scn kept me interested for six or seven years.
Not everyone got chewed up and spit out in scn. For me it was an interesting and worthwhile life experience.
Scn blogs and forums highlight the horrific aspects of scn as well they should. It seems that in cults the closer you get to the “Source”, Hubbard in my time and Miscavige today, the worse off you are.
That certainly doesn’t apply in all cases but I think that’s generally true.
“I think your OT8 is showing”
LOL 🤣
Yes, you are correct. I like to be OT VIII which is invincible. It gives me energy.
Hello George. Are you certain that is energy you are experiencing?
I have heard many people describe it as a kind of gas that their bodies release when they eat too many beans or other gaseous types of food.
lol
George – Late entry. That was a funny comeback and made me laugh.
This topic has drained me. I need to retreat to my OT regeneration chamber.