This week Leah and I venture into the world of Mormonism with Dr. John Dehlin. I recently appeared on his long-running and very popular podcast, Mormon Stories, and we are now welcoming him to ours.
He is not just a podcaster, he is a non-profit CEO, activist, public speaker, and religious transitions coach. He advocates for the rights of skeptics in Mormonism, LGBT rights, equality for women, and other individual views outside mainstream Mormonism. He has Master’s degree in Instructional Technology, and a Ph.D. in Clinical and Counseling Psychology.
We learned a great deal from John about the problems in the Mormon world and the many similarities with scientology — and some important differences which have tended to make the Mormons more successful, and certainly a lot more powerful and wealthy, than scientology.
We covered a broad range of subjects, and I thought I would add some links that might help those unfamiliar with the subject understand what we were talking about.
This is a link to the full Wikipedia entry on Joseph Smith the founder of Mormonism and below is the abstract at the top of the entry for a quick understanding:
Joseph Smith Jr. (December 23, 1805 – June 27, 1844) was an American religious leader and founder of Mormonism and the Latter Day Saint movement. When he was 24, Smith published the Book of Mormon. By the time of his death, 14 years later, he had attracted tens of thousands of followers and founded a religion that continues to the present with millions of global adherents.
Smith was born in Sharon, Vermont. By 1817, he had moved with his family to western New York, the site of intense religious revivalism during the Second Great Awakening. Smith said he experienced a series of visions, including one in 1820 during which he saw “two personages” (whom he eventually described as God the Father and Jesus Christ), and another in 1823 in which an angel directed him to a buried book of golden plates inscribed with a Judeo-Christian history of an ancient American civilization. In 1830, Smith published what he said was an English translation of these plates called the Book of Mormon. The same year he organized the Church of Christ, calling it a restoration of the early Christian church. Members of the church were later called “Latter Day Saints” or “Mormons”, and Smith announced a revelation in 1838 which renamed the church as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
In 1831, Smith and his followers moved west, planning to build a communalistic American Zion. They first gathered in Kirtland, Ohio, and established an outpost in Independence, Missouri, which was intended to be Zion’s “center place”. During the 1830s, Smith sent out missionaries, published revelations, and supervised construction of the Kirtland Temple. The collapse of the church-sponsored Kirtland Safety Society Anti-Banking Company and violent skirmishes with non-Mormon Missourians caused Smith and his followers to establish a new settlement at Nauvoo, Illinois, where he became a spiritual and political leader. In 1844, when the Nauvoo Expositor criticized Smith’s power and practice of polygamy, Smith and the Nauvoo city council ordered the destruction of their printing press, inflaming anti-Mormon sentiment. Fearing an invasion of Nauvoo, Smith rode to Carthage, Illinois, to stand trial, but was killed when a mob stormed the jailhouse.
Smith published many revelations and other texts that his followers regard as scripture. His teachings discuss the nature of God, cosmology, family structures, political organization, and religious collectivism. His followers regard him as a prophet comparable to Moses and Elijah, and several religious denominations consider themselves the continuation of the church that he organized, including The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Community of Christ.
We talk about Ensign Peak — the investment firm that manages some of the assets of the Mormon Church (more than $100 billion). And John mentions the lawfirm based in Salt Lake city that is the bastion of Mormon legal strategies, Kirton McConkie.
We talked about Sam Young, a former Mormon Bishop who was excommunicated for his efforts to end inappropriate sexual interaction within the church.
This is the link to John’s counseling practice
And his wife Margi’s: Beauty in the Now
These are some other resources he recommends:
Mormon Faith Crisis — a podcast of free coaching for Mormons in faith crisis.
Mormon Mental Health Association:
I love and appreciate all the work Leah and Mike are doing for those who have been abused by cults. It is so brave and inspirational.
I was so looking forward to this episode but was so disappointed. The abuse the Mormon church does was so downplayed.
Tithing is presented as a “choice” but at the end of the year you must attend a meeting to prove you pay full tithe or can’t go to the temple.
If you can’t go to the temple, you can’t participate in their “real” church with the cult rituals and costumes practiced inside.
You aren’t just left off a group text, you are shunned for leaving and told you don’t love your family and don’t love your kids because they will belong to someone else in heaven. You are completely cut off and shunned. It is mentally abusive over and over—you are never good enough.
And they use the elderly like my mother to go through birth and death records from all over the world looking for names, pretending it’s for ancestry, so they use the names for baptisms of the dead to increase their member numbers.
And how to stay an 501C by buying property and building a huge building —they are an expert and where do you think Scientology and others learned it from?
And the way they teach girls that if you have already had sex you are a used piece of chewed up gum that no one will ever want again, so you’re useless, is why girls don’t report sexual abuse. Just look to Elizabeth Smart as an example. She admitted the same.
The whole church is based on lies upon lies. And every time someone tries to reveal the truth, they are “fair gamed”. Absolutely.
I am humbly begging Mike and Leah to do more on this topic in the future. I know so many people suffering from its abuses that could really use the help that I’m without power or platform to provide.
Thank you so much for this episode! I loved it. As a former Mormon, your work exposing the harm Scientology perpetrated on its adherents helped me to verbalize what I deep down knew Mormonism was doing to me and my family. John is correct that Mormonism presents a thick veneer of niceness and happiness, but the underside of it is very dangerous and destructive. It nearly destroyed my life. So grateful to be on the other side, and to be able to listen to podcasts like these that give words to all the feelings and experiences people like me have had. Again, thank you, thank you! Mike, I know you speak out at great personal cost.
First, I have to say that I love your podcast and get excited each week when there is a new episode. With this crazy year and all of us being pretty isolated, it’s like hearing two “friends” every week so thank you!
Another great episode and I agree that for whatever reason, Mormons at least seem very nice.
Have you thought of having the girls from Escaping Polygamy on the podcast? I’ve always been so impressed with them and fe l like it court be an interesting one since they actually had to escape as so many scientologists (at least the sea org ones) do.
Anyway, thanks for all you do 🙂
I enjoyed this podcast and really enjoy all your episodes. However I feel that you guys give Christianity a pass. I feel that many of the criticisms towards other religions also apply to Christianity. Some of your guest’s comments in this episode really highlighted this to me. Made up stories (lies) presented as facts. The Bible is full of contradictions and historically inaccuracies. There are stories in the Bible that are ridiculous that rival Xenu. Plus it is full of horrendous acts against people from their “loving” creator.
The comments about disappointing family members when you leave the church or lose your beliefs rings true to many former Christians. The quiet shunning and disapproval is real.
As a former Christian who lost his faith over a period of time, I get frustrated that Christianity is still treated as the socially acceptable religion, despite the lies, the scandals and the cover ups.
I would love you guys to talk to some former Christians to discuss why they left the church and what leaving the Church was like for them. Can I suggest you invite Seth Andrews who hosts The Thinking Athiest podcast for an interview?
Kind regards,
Peter
Marvelous episode.
great listen, really smooth too. Nice balances.
I loved the ideas he bounced around about coming together. WOW!
….
Ever since I woke up, I’ve been learning to deal with enormity of what the cult stole from me – starting with the basic freedom to love and enjoy this big world. For the cult to be what it is, this has to be “a prison planet”, a mirage, and a poor copy of a copy of a copy of a world. It’s a distraction from eternity. To be rejected as a trap.
He stole our sunrises.
Scientologists pick new bodies – mormones pick the dead body in the grave.
Who wants to pick new bodies?
The idea of having 10% of one’s income in favor of the church is not only functional as it enters into fixed expenses and does not weigh on it but in the long term it is decisive for the amount that is created.
But this wouldn’t work in scn.
First because it is not a religion, it professes no faith and has nothing to believe or pray to. And who is inside knows it well.
Second, scn suffers from “locust syndrome”. If one knows them and knows how they behave, he must knows that in the end they also come to cannibalism.
For both reasons, the turnover in scn is such and continuous that there would be no way to impose a percentage.
The only thing left is the IAS bloodletting, and other weird fundraisers to “save the planet”. All things that have no future.
There was a lot of interesting information and a very good overview of Mormonism packed into that podcast. It was well worth listening to it. It would take a lot of reading to learn that much. John is very clear and to the point in his explanations.
Off Topic but I just want to let you all know that today there was a good development in Danny the Scamatologist Rapist’s case. You can read the details for yourself on Tony Ortega’s site here:
https://tonyortega.org/2021/04/20/masterson-denied-court-says-his-request-for-more-time-struck-down-prelim-still-may-18/
In a nutshell, he was in court asking for more time and the judge denied his request. His preliminary hearing will now go ahead on May 18, 2021.
I hope I got all these details correct. It would have been very easy for me to make a mistake. So you should check it for yourselves.
Excellent Podcast Mike and Leah. Thank you so much for these. I love listening to the World waking up to the evil doings of Scientology.
Very interesting episode.
I did not know this religion well.
In Italy there are 26,000 mormons. (the same amont of scientologists worldwide before covid 19).
Meanwhile, their largest cathedral in Europe is being built in Rome.
It certainly doesn’t seem like a thing to compare to scn’s idle orgs.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_Italy_Temple
Actually it was finished some year ago. Here something from wikipwdia. Quite impressive compared to all idle orgs we know.
I adore John Dehlin. I listen to his podcast frequently. One issue he addressed, that I’ve tried to address before with regard to Scientology, is that it is a religion based on non-consent. In the Mormon Church, that means being told from the beginning that your church is “true.” In Scientology, it’s even more insidious in that a member does not know–and may never know–all of the fair game and other abusive practices they are signing up for. As a perfect example, the women in the Masterson suit who were members did not know, when they signed their contracts, that they were signing away their right to NOT be raped, along with their right to take their rapist to a court of law. When Mormons voluntarily leave the Church, they often send a letter of resignation to the Church’s lawyers. In my mind, this is a way to terminate the contract. Why don’t Scientologists do this?
Regarding informed consent in scn, rather than being told that scn was the one true religion it was suggested that as one progressed up the Bridge he would become more and more aware of ultimate truth(s). At least that’s the way I understood it and there was a comforting degree of certainty in that attitude or belief.
On the other hand as someone once said, “Not everyone needs an ever climbing level of truth to the stellar heights of ultimate truth-hood.”
There is a story in Buddhist lore that when the Buddha emerged from under the Bhohdi Tree he saw a farmer walking along a nearby path. Buddha approached the farmer and said, “I have just become enlightened.” The farmer replied, “That may very well be, Sir, but I have work to do.” and continued on his way.
Maybe in Buddha’s time the monks and nuns were continually coming up with new revelations and the locals didn’t take them too seriously – lol
Thank you John for coming in this show!! Leah & Mike thank you for doing this show!! I’m a 5th generation Mormon. I left and I’ve been looking in to the church myself and John helped so much! And it’s true about the way they treat people leaving, I have an entire family who is still Mormon and they barely talk to me!
This is my FAVORITE interview you and Leah have done.
I too was nudged by Dr. John’s discourse about nice people being part of a group that not only has wacky beliefs but also does harm and living a life of lies.
“Soft Shunning.” Great term; never heard this term.
“Nice Cult”
“There’s an insidiousness to niceness.”
If I had to be in a cult, I would probably choose the Mormon Cult and hopefully make it big with my musical talents. Those got suppressed, invalidated and nullified in Scientology. It was a bait and switch. I was lured in with “Achieve your Dreams” and then eventually decieved and manipulated in signing that Billion Year Control to join the Sea Org. Oh, to be a Slave making pennies a year to help clear bank accounts. That sucked. I blew when I got myself on the internet and found Mike Rinder’s Blog and Tony Ortega’s Bunker. I am UTR hiding from the Scientologist’s who want me declared and punished. At least in the Mormon cult, many families become famous musicians. There are a ton of them in Branson, Missouri and they are awesome musicians. Also, the Mormon’s don’t bust up families and relationships quite like the Scientology cult does. Check out divorces in Scientology. I believe it is part of the Golden Age of Brainwashing to get people alone and vulnerable and intentionally break up their families.
As Mike mentioned, he recently went on Mormon Stories with John Dehlin. The previous Fair Game guest, Chris Shelton, did about 14 hours on Mormon Stories some time ago. The first half of the series was devoted to the life and work of LRH and the evolution of Scientology under David Miscavige. The ex-Scientologists would likely be amazed by the parallels between Joseph Smith and LRH, and to some extent the parallels between Brigham Young and Miscavige.
It’s kind of funny. Several of my favorite authors are Mormon. One of my favorite youtubers is a Mormon. They are nowhere near as isolated and paranoid as Scilons – they are not obvious cult members or blatantly weirdos.
Also, they are much, much better at the soft sell than any scientologist. The people at the Mormon Tabernacle are friendly and answer questions readily without BS. While I personally am not a Mormon, I do not view their beliefs as evil, just wrong.
O/T and a bit esoteric, to be honest, but this type of thing interests me. I previously noted that the Church of Scientology National Affairs Office (COSNAO) attacked the People’s Republic of China. The COSNAO has now attacked India, joining a letter urging the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) to recommend to the US Department of State that it designate India as a “Country of Particular Concern” (CPC). There has been some push-back.
Push-back against letter joined by Church of Scientology National Affairs Office to designate India as a Country of Particular Concern (CPC).
https://exscn2.net/threads/push-back-against-letter-joined-by-church-of-scientology-national-affairs-office-to-designate-india-as-a-country-of-particular-concern-cpc.3023/
The Church of Scientology may learn that there can be a cost to expressing an opinion on international issues.
/
IMNHO, Mormonism is an interesting change-up from scientology because they at least are related to actual religions, even with that bizarre foundation story: Buried gold plates translated by a mere teen; give me a break. He constructed the whole thing in his own fevered brain, like Hubbard. At least he had enough integrity to admit to a story which naturally leads the uninitiated to the revelation of the foundational fallacy. Those who accept that fable might just possibly get what they deserve from that institution. (sorry for lapsing into scion-think, there.)
Here’s another scion-think for you Jere. Scientologists have an advantage over Mormons when they leave. An Ex Mormon would just say they “left” while an Ex Scientologist can say they “blew” which sounds more dramatic.
The adult cartoon series…” South Park” did a entire episode about how Joseph Smith founded Mormonism.
Of course the religion made changes when POLYGAMY was cast aside by most TRUE believers & then the FLDS offshoot branch came into play to keep men being permitted to keep SPIRITUAL multiple wives.
It was quite amusing. Seems like the writers of South Park find a way to bash every religion.
it’s interesting to see Mormonism labled as a “churc”, as it does seem to fall just short of ‘church’ as I experienced them in my childhood.
When I first found out about Mormonism, I was absolutely stunned that anyone could believe such a monumental crock of shit. I’m still stunned – but then I found out about scientology and became even more stunned.
Martha Beck is an author, former Mormon, and LGBT rights advocate. Her work fits in with this week’s podcast. Her talks can be found on YouTube
Mike and Leah and all the podcast guests are doing fantastic work! There is so much to learn and be aware of in the field of mind control and undue influence