Our next episode of Listener Questions. Always some of our favorite episodes, and as usual, though we cover a lot of ground, we didn’t get through nearly all the questions you have sent in.
This time we try our best to answer questions about who does the Fair Gaming, what is CCHR, how scientology views the disabled, what PTSness is, The Duke of Chug, scientology’s sense of humor and much more. Leah and Mike even act out what happens in an auditing session. It’s a lot of fun and hopefully informative.
Dealing with Critics of Scientology
What is CCHR?
This is the Wikipedia entry:
For an even more in-depth picture of CCHR and Hubbard’s views on psychiatry, read Chris Owen’s brilliant series of articles on Tony Ortega’s blog:
As Leah promised, this is the link to the CCHR website
Scientology’s view on the disabled
Their mantra, right on the scientology.org website:
What is a Degraded Being?
This is the definitions from the official scientology Technical dictionary. These are Hubbard’s words they were willing to have published. In common usage in scientology, the term is far more derogatory.
What is a PTS?
An accurate description on Wikipedia:
Suppressive Person, often abbreviated SP, is a term used in Scientology to describe the “antisocial personalities.” The term is often applied to those whom the Church perceives as its enemies, such as those whose “disastrous” and “suppressive” acts are said to impede the progress of individual Scientologists or the Scientology movement.
One of the reasons Scientology doctrines portray Suppressive Persons as such a danger is that they are supposed to make people around them become Potential Trouble Sources (abbreviated PTS). Scientology defines a PTS as “a person who is in some way connected to and being adversely affected by a suppressive person. Such a person is called a potential trouble source because he can be a lot of trouble to himself and to others.”
The Duke of Chug
Tony Ortega wrote an excellent piece about Xenu’s lesser-known Space Opera figure, The Duke of Chug…
Scientology’s Sense of Humor
An earlier post: That’s Not Funny
Hubbard’s “Jokers and Degraders”
I have a question/request. I love when Leah talks about her healing/recovery process because I have been going through my own healing process (though not Scientology-related). It’s very encouraging and comforting to learn about someone else’s journey. Could Leah (and Mike) share the books or therapies that they found most helpful? I’d love a book list. Or if this already exists, please link me!
Hi Alicia,
You will find Leah’s list here: https://www.mikerindersblog.org/episode-14-listener-questions-part-2/
I also recommend Martha Stoutt’s Sociopath Next Door and Viktor Frankl’s Man’s Search for Meaning
After I was kicked out of Flag 41 years ago, I heard complaints in the business world that the fancy new MBAs were focused too much on the bottom line, sacrificing companies’ long-term viability for next week or the end of the quarter/year or whatever. Hubbard was SO extreme on that score that scientology had little/no chance to build for the future. Everything was now, now, NOW, with no regard for “tomorrow” (other than one phrase in the Affluence formula).
A guy creating scientology mentioned it’s a game. In purpose to get rid of it Las Vegas and Monaco must go. To fight against scientology is to fight against gamblinghouses ruining gamblers.
Courage ought to be rewarded and cowardice ought to punished. The ones giving their lives to critical thinking makes it in life.
The bank is the evil to be erased according to Hubbard a banker in a casino.
Leah tells about JWs and Scientologists not getting an education.
Not all cults disallow or question worldly education. I think the LDS church would qualify as a cult for many people. They have their own university, BYU, and young members are encouraged to go there. There even are LDS-parents who will only help kids who want to get a college educaton if they go to BYU.
The reason: the LDS wants its members to pay 10% of their income each year to the church (tithing). If members have a good education they have a chance to have a higher income.
However, learning about critical thinking also tends to get students and graduates of BYU questioning their faith… 😉
Playing around in the pro-science/atheist sites, I’ve heard it said that many became atheists AFTER reading the Bible. It just has too many gaping holes in what is supposed to pass for logic. That’s pretty much what happens to me when I read scientology texts now. KSW fails for me as I don’t accept item #1 as true.
Having worked for DSS/CPS for a number of years I had the pleasure of working with a young man who is Mormon & attended Brigham Young University. Very intelligent, caring, sweet natured person, who had done his duty meeting all the requirements before age 21….”spreading the Mormon word”.
He was very level headed, but deeply entrenched in his faith. Seems like MOST churches have a required Tithe. At 23 he married a lovely young woman of the same faith & they intended to bring their children up as Mormon. He never discussed his religion at work, despite one of his BFF’s ragging on it every day.
This was in the late 1960’s when we were permitted to wear jeans, sneakers, have long hair & men could have facial hair….even if it were “scraggly”. Sometimes you couldn’t tell who was the caseworker & who was one of our “clients”.
John ALWAYS came to work in a suit, white shirt, tie….shined shoes…….VERY SHORT haircut & clean shaven as well. His BFF at work (also named John) who sat next to him was the complete opposite “hippie” & he’d tease the Hell out of poor John every day.
While one John complained as we all did, about college loans on our low Social Worker salary…the Mormon John had his education at BYU PAID IN FULL. Full dedication paid off for him, he was debt free.
I had a friend who had to sign a paper obligating them to pay 10% weekly etc. She asked “what if there comes a time I cannot meet that obligation”………………
She was told “You can OWE back $$$ to us”…………WOW….she quit that religion pronto. Nowhere in the Bible did I read that it was REQUIRED that a church member is OBLIGATED to ante up 10% or more of their weekly salary.
Happy 10 Aug everyone*
Hubbard blathers away in his infamous KSW policy letter, “The only thing you can be upbraided for by student or pcs is “no results”.”
Hubbard was actually right on the money. I’ve yet to see any of the promised results of the ‘grade chart’ or ‘bridge to total freedom’. Copies of these charts are easily googled and a portion of the chart is included on this blog dated 2 August 2021. There have been no lasting results that have been promised in scientology. Never have been, never will be. scientology is nothing more than a con. Let the upbraiding continue!!! And let the upbraiding begin for those bubble dwellers yet to wake up and smell the Kool-Aid.
*ex culties will know the significance of this and surely cringe at the memory of being subjected to it.
Hubbard wasn’t very original, stealing/plagiarizing from MANY sources. As another said of scn: What’s good isn’t new, what’s new isn’t good.
AFAICT, nothing in scn WORKS as advertised, though it MAY work as designed.
scientology; making the able less able for 71 years.
In truth, scientology is against everyone working to create a true science of the mind, currently trying to HELP people, which they can’t do in scn, despite LRH’s assertions.
You had said any joke made about scientology is bad. During the movie “friends with benefits”, Jenna Elfman played justin Timberlake sister, while Justin & Mila were climbing the Hollywood sign justin made a joke about scientology being science fiction. How would that affect Jenna Elfman? Would she have any fall out or be in trouble for being in a movie with a joke such as that?
You also spoke about disabled persons being rejected. How was John Travolta son Jett treated by scientology? Being his father is a high profile scientologist would he have received assistance regardless of his condition?
Jenna, being a good scientologist would have just kept her TRs in as she was being bullbaited. As a celebrity of sorts, she would have been exempt from anything too serious for playing her character, though if she got on the tiny twit’s shit list, she MIGHT have a sec-check to suffer through at her own expense.
Dear Lydia,
As a point of fact, Chuck Lorre, creator of The Kominsky Method, was contacted by the Hollywood Reporter concerning the show after Tony Ortega’s recounting of Geoff Levin telling him Lorre had once been involved. To the HR Lorre stated specifically that he had once dabbled in Scientology, explaining, “What can I say? I did a lot of stupid shit when I was young.”
Accordingly, Lydia, you might reconsider your characterization of Scientology’s inclusion in Lorre’s show as “winning.” Just a suggestion . . . .
Signed,
Not In The Bubble
Oh man! I remember those crazy INCOMM computer orders! I just ignored them. Thanks for never coming after me, Mike. 😉
INCOMM: removing the last vestige of humanity from scn mismanagement
Obviously Lydia Hopwood hasn’t watched all of the Kominsky Method. To say that Scientology is making its way into pop culture because in the final show some “slightly squirrel version” of CCH 3 was in the episode is so effing stupid. Alan Arkin’s character has a grandson who plays a Scientologist. Scientology is throughout many episodes; somewhere in Season 1 Arkin speaks of his grandson not talking to him because he’s a “Suppressive.”
Lydia, How’s that for Scientology making it into pop culture, you stupid idiot.
Oh my goodness. Mary Kahn has always impressed me as a very kind and loving person. One who is truly evolved and deserving of much respect.
But to engage in name calling by calling someone a, “stupid idiot” is just not helpful in any way.
I had always thought Mary had evolved beyond the nasty behavior that is typical of this cult and that she was above that.
What I’m trying to say is that there is a struggle going on here by former members of Scientology to shut down this terrible scam. But please consider how name calling others who may not be as experienced as yourself reflects to those people who can help in this struggle.
Mary is truly better than that.
Hello,
Thanks to Mike and Leah for all the work you do. I’d like to know if Scientology has ever lost a court case that could have shaken the foundations of the ‘church’.
Listening from the UK
Luis, AFAICT, scientology has lost or quickly sued (begged) to settle every important court case. I believe they were terrified that any substantial “dirt” might get entered into evidence and quit while they were ‘ahead’, or not as far behind as they were likely to get if the trials got into any real substantial examination of scn’s true activities.
I love seeing scientology made fun of in media. I want to buy the dvds of southpark and simpsons that have the scientology spoofs. Just to add to my collection.
I would suggest that Lydia Hopwood also watch The Master if she wants to see a Phillip Seymour Hoffman portrayal Hubbard doing CCHs and running his con. There was lots of Hubbard laid bare in this movie. One of my favorites scenes was Hubbard being arrested during the Philadelphia Doctorate Course lectures. I also enjoyed seeing Nibs telling it like it is, “he’s making it up as he goes”. Nice portrayals of Mary Sue ‘Under the Bus’ Hubbard too. None of it showed that scientology is winning and benefiting the planet. Just like in real life.
Marvellous movie and superb acting by Phillip Hoffman and above all excellent script and direction by Paul Thomas Anderson.
It shows Hubbard was opportunist and narcissist ,not genius nor creative.
His empire revolves around rich donors .
There were others running similar “business” with the help of Intelligentia.
It was era of self help gurus like Dale Carnegie ( How to win and influence people ) and Nepolian Hill ( Think and grow rich)
Most Cults took advantage of that and projected themselves as life improvement movement with blend of esoteric text.
That was 50’s , no internet ,no satellite TV, no social media and no multimedia. Whch give more shelf life to these thinking and ideologies.
With information technology , spreading news at the speed of light ( almost ), exposed Cults , belief and inner working.
Now they are political and social orphan.
Young cult followers cannot even introduce themselves to new neighbour’s or colleagues or classfellows in post Ananomous movement.
Cults never meant to provide benefits to common man or even its followers.
They are meant to cash on Guilt and Fear.
They are parasite which flourishes on blind obedience. No question ask, take it as it is.
scientology is intentionally incapable of changing to meet challenges or changes in society. Hubbard required that because he could not, dared not, change without admitting he was (*gasp*!) *wrong* in some way. His outsized ego couldn’t handle that. Either he was entirely right in every way, or he was nothing. IMNHO, he was the latter.
ONCE AGAIN Hubbard is giving another peak at his all-encompassing need to control people and make them feel like its their fault, problem, aberration, malady or illness if HE can’t control them.
Hubbards definition of Degraded Being put another way: “I have a need to control people’s every move and if they resist or don’t comply with my orders or my will then they will be ostracized or bullied by their fellow Scientologists because I will label those people ‘Degraded Beings.'” Hence, if one wants to avoid this label, then comply with Hubbards orders. Hence, you now have the definition of a “Sea Org Member.”
Hubbards definition reminded me of the creation of the Lower Conditions as another form of bullying or ostracizing scientologists into submission.
That HCOB, J&D, removed the last vestige of FUN from scn. KSW removed reasoning. LRH didn’t understand or consider unintended consequences … Or he did, and scn went exactly where he wanted: to the trash heap of failed cults.IIRC, even during the war, his senior officers recognized that he didn’t consider the consequences of his actions.
Ron’s ‘ethics’ was nothing more than punishment that HE didn’t have to specifically order or carry out. The lower conditions were particularly degrading and could, on a whim, be declared on anyone who caught him on a bad day. For example, the whole SHIP was assigned Liability once. The whole management solely by stats was designed to make everyone fail sooner or later. No matter how incredible a miracle you performed last week, NEXT week, it’s not enough; ya’ gotta do BETTER — or ELSE. NO ONE can always have increasing stats week over week. Those who seem to invariably are cheating a lot or a little, and are most likely lying through their teeth.