We talk to our old friend and Aftermath OG Claire Headley again this week, this time to discuss Committees of Evidence. What are they exactly, our personal experiences convening, participating and being victims of them, and how they differ from arbitration. We have quite a lot of documents to go along with this episode — a great repository of information for future reference.
The Headley Aftermath episode Season 1 Ep 5 (if you haven’t seen this one. we have some fun with the PI’s who followed us to Denver):
Marc’s wonderfully entertaining book about his experiences in the Sea Org, at Gold and with David Miscavige: Blown for Good
The relevant text from the Scientology Enrollment Agreement which contains paragraph 6d. which is the so-called “Religious Arbitration Agreement” — the only time this is mentioned anywhere in any scientology writing:
The full text of the Committee of Evidence PL
If you read this, it is perfectly clear that this is NOT an impartial arbitration by any wildest stretch of the imagination.
My earlier blog posts on arbitration pointing out the insanity of trying to claim a Committee of Evidence proceeding is an “arbitration.”
Concerning Scientology “Religious Arbitration”
Scientology “Religious Arbitration” — Giving Kangaroo Courts a Bad Name
More on Scientology “Religious Arbitration”
Shameful Scientology “Religious Arbitration” Destroying Justice
A Scientology Committee of Evidence is NOT Arbitration
Hubbard’s ETHICS REVIEW PL
The scientology LIST OF CRIMES
The scientology LIST OF HIGH CRIMES SP ACTS
Hubbard’s JUSTICE OF SCIENTOLOGY PL
Hubbard’s New Hope for Justice
Justice Rosenbaum dissent — this is not arbitration, it is just plain arbitrary.
Examples of Committee of Evidence Bills of Particulars
Excerpt from the Headley appellate decision:
I loved this podcast. If there is one thing that makes me furious, it’s “injustice”. And Scientology specializes in it. Their “arbitration” is a total sham. For anyone (judges) to fall for this as some sort of standard justice procedure is highly irresponsible, since there’s literally mountains of evidence of Scientology’s criminal abuse of human rights and cult tactics aimed at destroying any individual or group who would dare to go against them.
Bitter Apostate Defrocked.
BAD Mike.
I *love* hearing Leah talk about what she’s studying at NYU. She brings such a unique voice to that work. She must be a joy to have as a colleague & student!
I have this crazy idea of making a card game that’s like “Making a Cult — Who Will Win?!” where players have to try to resist overtures from a player who is the “cult leader” — by using Steven Hassan’s BITE model, and understanding how MLM “math” does not work, and so on. How to make it fun, and not too preachy or educational (borrrring, lol!!), though?
Anyway, great episode, y’all!!
—Long-time listener, first-time commenter 😄
Wow, impressive listening to this lawyer professor.
He’s the one who Mike refers to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOAdBBUfDj4
Very worth listening to!!!
https://reason.com/volokh/2020/01/23/scientology-and-arbitration/
From Helfand’s article, why he felt the Scientology arbitration requirements were losable legally:
“…consider In Matter of Ismailoff, where a New York surrogate court refused to enforce an arbitrator qualification clause that required selection of “three persons of the Orthodox Jewish faith.” The court concluded that enforcing such a provision would violate the Establishment Clause because it would require a judicial determination as to whether the arbitrators were “orthodox.” And doing so would entail impermissibly resolving an “issue concerning religious doctrine or practice.”
This logic would seem to apply equally to determining whether an arbitrator is “in good standing with the Mother Church.” Determining whether proposed arbitrators satisfied this standard would presumably require judicial interrogation of religious doctrine; it seems most likely that interpreting and applying that standard both entails identifying what religious behaviors are necessary for good standing and then applying those religious standards to prospective arbitrators. As a result, it would be unconstitutional to enforce the arbitrator qualification clause.
One can imagine the Church of Scientology responding with the following counter-argument: the arbitrator qualification provision in Garcia does not require adjudication of a religious question, but simply asking the church whether the proposed arbitrators satisfied the theological requirements of good standing.
The problem with this argument is that it would empower one party to determine which prospective arbitrators are, and which are not, eligible to serve as members of the arbitral tribunal. And granting one party authority to either control the arbitrator selection process or to circumscribe the pool of eligible arbitrators renders an arbitration provision unconscionable precisely because it threatens to undermine the neutrality of the arbitration panel. See Zabrowski v. MHN Gov’t Servs., 601 F. App’x 461, 463 (9th Cir. 2014); Hooters of Am., Inc. v. Phillips, 173 F.3d 933, 938 (4th Cir. 1999). Indeed, granting the Church of Scientology final say over which arbitrators satisfied the “in good standing” requirement is particularly problematic given that no court could ever review the Church’s determination because of the religious question doctrine.
Importantly, there’s an additional consequence to invalidating the arbitrator selection clause. To the extent a court were to invalidate the arbitrator qualification provision, it is quite likely that it also should invalidate the entire arbitration agreement. This is because courts are to invalidate the entirety of an arbitration agreement “where the designation of the arbitrator was ‘integral’ to the arbitration provision [and not] merely an ancillary consideration.” See, e.g., Khan v. Dell Inc., 669 F.3d 350, 354 (3d Cir. 2012); see also Brown v. ITT Consumer Fin. Corp., 211 F.3d 1217, 1222 (11th Cir. 2000); Gutfreund v. Weiner (In re Salomon Inc. Shareholders’ Derivative Litig.), 68 F.3d 554, 561 (2d Cir. 1995). Given the nature of the overall arbitration agreement, it seems to my mind that the arbitrator qualification clause requiring arbitrators in good standing with the Church of Scientology ought to be viewed as integral to the Church of Scientology arbitration agreement.
…..”
CONCLUSION: This is good news, and ought be widely shared, so people planning to sue Scientology hire this Helfand person for their case!!
“The Police Computer”.
This is an INCOMM computer which is supposed to do what LRH’s “Chug Advices” order.
LRH ordered, and INCOMM (the Sea Org Int level staffed) group that makes the computer programs for Scientology management.
LRH ordered the computer to replace management, in effect, which I think is also longer range why Miscavige isn’t concerned when he leaves the top two councils of Scientology (Watchdog Committee and Exec Strata) vacant and not doing much strategic decision making for the movement.
Hubbard had ordered with the INCOMM traffic he sent mostly to Foster Tompkins, who was then head of the computerization of Sea Org management.
LRH based this on his recollection/memory of an ancient computer system that used to run planets for millions of years successfully, and millions or longer ago.
Duke of Chug was a bad guy, embezzling.
The computer system of that day, detected Chug’s embezzling, and then searched for a replacement, ordered the replacement to present themselves to where Chug was, and the computer also ordered the police to arrest and execute Chug.
So the parts of the INCOMM computerization is to contain both personnel and then ethics (statistical) oversight. (I worked in the “routing forms” sub part, the internal Scientology staff were to use the routing forms when dealing with followers who came into a Scientology organization to receive a service like training or the quackery pseudo-therapy and all this routing of people around the organizations was to be done using routing forms that listed out the exact steps. In one advice we never even ever thought was possible, but is now possible, was to put all the routing forms info and the followers’ services history info, on an electronic device, like on a today E Reader/Ipad, which is doable today, and thus I think INCOMM will eventually have to perfect that LRH order also, where he said they used to have things like Ipads in which all the relevant info for directing a person to go from point to point inside an organization.)
Anyways, the Police Computer did exist in the old original INCOMM. There was a room with an actual sign on it, even when I worked in that computer room years later, the sign was on the doorway, and also several of the old WICAT (Linux / Unix software ran on the INCOMM computers when I was there; they’ve since replaced all of them with IBM PC based hardward and software I don’t know what they are using today).
The Police Computer was hooked up to detect minimally, non-compliance to orders and to program targets.
The managers in Sea Org from the HGB level and Int Base managers, for a few years were harassed like crazy with the INCOMM “TNT” (target nudge and tally) system, which was a beginner level using the computer to order and keep track of compliance to orders and targets.
When managers failed to get an order or target done, they’d get computer alerts and nudges, and ethics warnings, then even up to Comm Evs, all with the “Police Computer” byline on the alerts/nudges/ethics orders/Comm Ev orders.
It’s all based on Hubbard, and was and will always long range be part of official Scientology.
It’s a huge under reported upon part of Scientology.
Hubbard ordered unlimited funding for INCOMM, and computer protection, and I think today INCOMM still is under the supervision of someone in RTC, and not even CMO Int is over INCOMM, only RTC.
It was to be this standalone entity to eventually replace management, according to the LRH advices I studied (Method 9 word cleared them, and when I studied them, they included also Pat Broeker’s input and I think one despatch input from Annie also, to clarify LRH’s comments in the Chug advices). It totalled two big binders and a third small binder, of LRH traffic for INCOMM, I read it all very carefully.
It’s serious, but it’s hare brained.
And it was dismal when managers got these endless scrap paper from the Police Computer alerting/nudging, threatening them.
A good dozen or more public Scientologists who were in the computer business participated in the programming and consultation, and even some non Scientologists were shown a few of the LRH Chug traffic, to do the work they did to build the INCOMM computer system.
A huge amount of money was wasted and people blamed for the failures of course, also, and the system is not in full use, of course.
I just finished listening to the podcast.
One of the most amazing, shocking really, things about Scientology is that the cult is set up so actually honest and well intentioned people like Claire Headley and her husband Marc Headley could be in high positions in the upper exec strata or RTC and believe that they were working for a good group that was doing good things and that only David Miscavige and very few others actually understood that Scientology was lying to and exploiting people routinely.
I can’t even count all the people that I knew in Scientology or after leaving Scientology who were in high positions in organizations or the Sea Org and they in my opinion sincerely were good people trying to help other people, but fooled by Scientology doctrine and the group into believing that the acts that they did and were done by others were good, despite all the harm that Scientology causes, routinely and consistently.
It really is amazing to me that if you get people to believe that the ends are justified then any means to get them are justified, whether it’s leaving your family or effectively disconnecting because you work eighty to a hundred and twenty hours a week or breaking all your agreements with your family because there are always emergencies to deal with, every single day.
It just goes on and on and on. You are expected to take mistreatment, disrespect, and abuse every day and then to ignore it happening to other people and to eventually dish it out as directed to other people as well.
It is a terrible lesson in how obedience is not a virtue, people are not dogs, we should have well developed personal values and morals and good independent and critical thinking, not obedience to authority and conformity to group norms.
I wish someone could collect a series of interviews with the highest level (willing) defectors from Scientology to highlight that they often didn’t know about the lies and crimes of Scientology and David Miscavige and Ronald Hubbard or of they did know but they did not know about all of them and they sincerely believed that Scientology is beneficial as a technology and group and that whatever they did or knew about was justified because it was genuinely helping to save the world. It sounds impossibly naive and idealistic, but I guess it’s better to being doing something evil or supporting people who are doing evil because you are fooled into thinking it is ultimately helping a good cause than to do evil and be indifferent to the harm you cause.
I think a documentary on this “We Thought We Were The Good Guys!” Or something like that would really help to educate people about cults and help some people to accept themselves and their own mistakes.
I think a reason a lot of ex cult members and abused people don’t talk about their experiences is they are ashamed or feel stupid and don’t know what to do with their feelings or knowledge.
I think it helps to see that many ex cult members are intelligent, capable, sane, moral and even good people, because it helps to take the sting of being an ex cult member down, for some people.
We can look at people like Mike and Leah, Claire and Marc Headley, Tory Christman, Jon Atack, Chris Shelton and on and on and see that these people were in Scientology and clearly are smart, clever, capable, sane, and good people, so if they were in Scientology then it’s wrong to see yourself as stupid, dimwitted, incapable, crazy and evil because you were in Scientology, although for some reason unfortunately some ex cult members have extremely persistent negative emotions about themselves.
Cult expert Daniel Shaw has noted that many ex cult members are haunted by profound shame and some are depressed or even suicidal. This experience sometimes helps to diminish the shame or perhaps help the ex cult member to see that the shame exists, rather than just be tortured by it.
I am listening to the podcast and reminded of several court cases involving Scientology. I wrote a post that I will share here because it to my mind points out the mindset of Scientologists as demonstrated by what they do in court.
I wrote it after a court case in Belgium featured Scientologists claiming to practice Scientology and follow Scientology policy and every time they were asked about the policy in Scientology that they follow every day, they denied doing the things that their own policy letters say to do, despite any evidence that they do them.
Apparently the staff in Belgium somehow follow Scientology policy but when it requires them to violate the law and human rights in Belgium they magically never read those policies, even if they were part of the training they did for their posts! Even if other witnesses recall them doing these things and documents and e-mails and records of financial transactions and on and on support these claims they simply deny the facts! Then say that you don’t understand Scientology!
Scientological Thinking
In reading about Jonny Jacobsen’s excellent coverage of the trial of Scientology in Belgium an amusing kind of exchange between the judges and Scientologists being questioned keeps occurring.
I will paraphrase an example to show how this works.
Judge: So you are supposed to pressure customers to donate large sums of money and buy courses ?
Scientologist: It is always the choice of the customer to buy the course.
Judge: But you say you follow the writings of Hubbard and here is a quote where Hubbard says to hard sell and make sure you get the sale.
Scientologist: I am not familiar with that and you don’t understand, you are taking that out of context.
Judge: Are you required to keep track of all moral infractions in fine detail ?
Scientologist: That hasn’t been my experience. I only tell the auditor what I am comfortable saying.
Judge: But you have ethics files, auditing files, reports you write on yourself, conditions write ups, OW write ups, life histories, student files and staff files on yourself !
Scientologist: You misunderstand.
Judge: Here is Hubbard’s policy stating the auditor must report your overts to the ethics officer.
Scientologist: You are cherry picking things in a way that doesn’t make sense.
Judge: Aren’t you required to donate large sums of money that escalate the longer you are in Scientology ?
Scientologist: Oh no, not at all.
Judge: Haven’t you donated tens of thousands of dollars for services AND tens of thousands to the IAS on top of that ?
Scientologist: Oh yes, because I wanted to.
Judge: You say you follow Hubbard’s teachings and here he specifically states to have you flow more money toward your bridge, and to push you to buy ever more expensive services !
Scientologist: No, you don’t understand.
Judge: Every policy I bring up you say doesn’t apply !
The poor judge goes round and round. Why ? It’s not because he doesn’t understand Scientology terms. He doesn’t understand Scientology’s RESULTS on the mind of a Scientologist.
The Scientologist doesn’t SEE the reality of Scientology. He FEELS an impression, totally divorced from reality. The methods of indoctrination in Scientology create an unthinking obedience and attitude of cheerful submission in a Scientologist.
The “study technology” actually annihilates the capacity for critical, independent, rational, logical and linear thinking. I covered that in the blog entry Insidious Enslavement: Study Technology. Additionally the loaded language has the effect of creating doublethink. By making words and phrases label their opposites Hubbard created a state of confusion and inability to even perceive reality or detect contradictions in Scientology beliefs and behaviors.
As an example Scientologists simultaneously consider OTs to be godlike superior beings with tremendous powers and know they are entirely normal people with no special abilities. As another example Scientologists consider Scientology workable and Scientology organizations far superior to other groups, but accept that staff get no or very little pay and don’t have improving conditions, or even pay equal to normal organizations. I covered the methods of this and many examples in Propaganda by Reversal of Meaning and The Secret of Scientology part one: Control by Contradiction.
Scientologists don’t see contradiction in Hubbard’s terms, phrases, doctrine or organizations. They simply don’t see it. They don’t SEE Scientology !
That’s why whenever a judge points out Hubbard’s words, no matter how clearly Hubbard states something, no matter how frequently and consistently Hubbard says to do something, no matter how many times the Scientologist himself has done what the judge is asking about with Hubbard’s own words to hand – the Scientologist cannot see the details and reality of Scientology.
Scientologists are persuaded with vivid images and hallucinatory fantasies and see THAT fiction instead of the reality of Scientology in Hubbard’s doctrine, his organizations and even their own lives and actions.
They buy into a dream of a utopian future, and ignore the current actuality. And the doublethink is so total they accept slavery to strive for freedom, they disconnect from families to build strong families, they are ruthless and brutal to others to help them, they grow to hate virtually everyone to achieve higher affinity for others.
The Scientologist has the horrible weakness of seeing only the illusion of a noble end and not the obvious, criminal, abusive, dishonest and dishonorable means that are truly the heart of Scientology. That is the bait and switch Hubbard as a covert totalitarian uses – he gives very generous empty promises and fills minds with visions of counterfeit dreams, these dreams are truly fractured shards from Hubbard. They brilliantly seem beautiful and beneficial to gain euphoric associations. But are vague, misunderstood and broad and flexible enough to be used to lead the Scientologist on a path he doesn’t even really see.
Now, I am not saying Scientologists are completely free from any degree of responsibility for their actions. That would be impractical and too black and white. And not true. There is no simple total answer.
But understanding Scientologists starts with understanding Scientology’s effect on the individual Scientologist. By seeing Hubbard’s intent, Hubbard’s methods, the results on the Scientologist and the Scientologist’s impression of what is occurring you can remove the mystery and seeming irony of Scientology. It all fits together.
By studying the indoctrination method as thought reform, and the behaviors of Scientologists as cult behaviors along with hypnotism and Hubbard’s plagiarized methods and social psychology to understand his effects on his victims you can see what a Scientologist sees, without becoming a Scientologist. And if an ex Scientologist you may hopefully radically reduce Hubbard’s influence upon your mind and life.
Well done!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Chamber#Influence_on_the_U.S._Constitution
On this extremely important issue, it is vital that outsiders, on their own, study on Scientology, in detail, and their work is presented to judges, to eliminate bias charges.
Which is another of the reasons to stay in touch with the “apologist” academics, and push those academics to do more detailed study of the Hubbard writings, which ex members know intimately better than any apologist academic alive.
Whoever does write on Scientology, and seem to be in favor or to ex members’ views to be grossly insufficient in their writing, still, despite the disappointment in the insufficiency of outsiders writing on Scientology Hubbard writings and subjects, still, it is important for ex staff/members who truly know the Hubbard writings truly better, do still write and challenge and try to encourage better outside study of Hubbard’s writings.
Judges out there deserve good studies by real experts, who have no bias for or against Scientology.
And bad insufficient studies done by outsider experts, they can be challenged by ex members politiely, and show up their deficiencies.
Up to the day when outside experts truly do measure up to ex members’ actual long histories of expertise in application of the Hubbard in house rules.
It’s a matter of just getting some outside neutral smart researchers who are widespread trusted by judges do deeper study of the intricacies and history of the Hubbard justice rules application and writings.
——————–
The big thing that sticks out comparing Scientology’s arbitration to other religious allowed arbiter panel/councils is that Scientology’s arbitration has two “authorities” review the Scientology arbiters’ findings!
I highly doubt outside other religion’s arbitration council/panels allow their arbitration decisions to be reviewed by yet another person (as in the case of Int Justice Chief) and in the case of AVC Ethics Issue Authority (who even oversees Int Justice Chief’s review of the Scientology arbitration).
Scientology has two levels of authorities overlooking their arbitration panels’ work.
This topic of Scientology’s arbitration deserves an outsider’s expert study.
The Hubbard writings presented here lead into a mass of weeds that do need be studied.
The history of Scientology’s justice practices needs a long study and an outside expert also.
How to gain someone to do the homework on the Hubbard jsutice writings and history?
How to interest even a taker to this topic?
Excellent presentation of L. Ron Hubbard writings directly bearing on the subject of Scientology’s “arbitration” today.
It takes experts, actually, to even judge Hubbard’s writings, and there literally are none in the outside world.
Jim Richardarson of Univ of LV Reno used to be an expert, but he’s a generalist, and not technically as capable as scores and scores of ex Sea Org staff who’ve lived long through the weeds of Hubbard’s justice policies.
I worked in Senior HCO Int, which even I’d guess less than 90 percent or more outsiders have no clue what that even is.
I sat 20 feet from Int Justice Chief at the time, and twineed with his wife who was his communicator. I heard of the routine controversial oversight challenges upper Sea Org staff made to Int Justice Chief’s paperwork fully technically correct presentations and relays of lower justice paperwork. Upper staff would reject Int Justice Chief routinely, and their rejections are the type of weeds discussion that have never ever been discussed or written about.
The type of oversight which the Int Justice Chief is under by RTC staff and AVC staff, which also the totem pole positions and authority to bend and add a whimsical arbitrary nature to Scientology’s fads of internal justice, are a huge huge important and factual sub subject.
No one is even up to understanding Scientology’s internal justice, in the outside world. They are smart, these outside academics, but getting even up to the knowledge level of former long term Scientologist staff who’ve worked in the Sea org ranks in the justice jobs, this is truly a gulf of ignorance and non interest.
The outside world is pitifully ignorant of Hubbard’s writings in the church of Scientology’s policies.
Just layers and layers of outside ignorance.
There is general distrust, and repellant disgust with Scientology, rightfully so.
But the details, no one from the outside has put in actual study of Hubbard’s justice writings and rules and actually written in detail about the history of the internal Hubbard justice processes that have taken place.
A history of the details would be repulsive to waste one’s time to read about what has gone on. But it is crucial to understanding how far the Scientology justice and “arbitration” history is from normal justice and arbitration practices.
A book by an ex Int Justice Chief and others who’ve worked in the AVC branch, or worked in the RTC branches who saw the paperwork submissions for certain types of Hubbard justice processes, and get into the weeds of the Hubbard policies and the opinions of upper Sea Org members which sway even the full allowed Hubbard rules to be used in support of the side of those who are condemned ultimately by the use of the system.
The Hubbard system has some loopholes, and I’ve told some staff how to use those loopholes. And old hand Apollo vets told me about the loopholes. But in the end, the Hubbard Scientology whole world is so deviant and it’s quackery at heart, why would one fight to use the Hubbard loopholes to gain success and win one’s way back into this quackery group?
Hubbard’s world is so turned around, that even winning and using it “correctly” gains one success in getting back into the quackery application to oneself.
Why win at the system, it gets you back into the mess?
It’s so turned around, it’s hard to lay out how bad it all is.
Chuck Beatty
There is NO “justice” in scientology unless you redefine it to mean that the powers that be(TPTB) get to punish whomever they want. “ethics” in scn is just another way of saying “punishment. Going to the ‘ethics’ officer is identical to being sent to the principal’s office back in school.
Jere,
Do you remember Lynn Visk, she was in SO Number 1 Unit, and I was secretary on a Comm Ev with her the Chairman. Due to her personality and her experience on the SO Number 1 line dealing back then in the earlier 1970s with people petitioning and writing for help to LRH, there were some things written which Lynn was familiar with to help those earlier era Scientologists who’d been grossly screwed over, to help them get some justice.
One is the Board of Review, and there are three criteria to undo a bad justice “cycle.” Only one of the three criteria need be met, and the unjust justice “cycle” can be undone.
Also, Petition, which LRH did order that ED Int take over the “hat” of Petition receiving and adjudicating, was to exist. This loophole has closed, and I don’t know of any Petitions in the last 20 plus years being approved. It’s truly lost as a loophole.
Board of Reviews can be overturned, or sat on, by AVC, and under Miscavige, since he per an LRH order was left the responsibility to set who and where AVC was to be, so this put Miscavige as above AVC, and AVC is above Int Justice Chief and Int Justice Chief is above the “SPs” who are trying to petition for redress and injustices fixing.
You’re right, but the Hubbard writings are still there, and a new crew in the future could potentially open up the spigot of the loopholes.
Even as late as 2002 on the PAC RPF I urged one RPFer do his petition, he got it approved and he got off the RPF. He told another RPFer who in turn also did their petition and got off the RPF also.
Unjust RPFing, two people, I know, I saw it happen, got off, as late as 2002.
The loopholes won’t die, since they are policy. It just depends who is AVC and whoever is AVC is in tune with what Miscavige wants, and that closes the loopholes.
Or, when enlightened later AVC and whoever is over AVC doing Miscavige’s job, is more lenient.
In the lower ranks, once I made my way down to PAC level Sea Org member elbow rubbing, I noticed they followed policy, and if a matter could be totally locally decided without upper intervention, then locally, lower down the totem pole, people will stick to what Hubbard wrote.
When there are fads and people up above tipping the scales, setting fads, then injustice prevails.
But a stickler, I was one hands down no one ever ever beat me, can use policy to fend off all fads.
Do I wish to, no, since winning at the Hubbard justice loopholes, only gains one participation back in the quackery cult. Why would anyone wish to do that?
And, a later upper AVC terminal or person could complain, and end any gain one attained using the standard Hubbard loopholes.
Losing proposition.
“…..quit fast……” Keeping Scientology Working, L. Ron Hubbard. The best course of action.
Committees of Evidence are, and always were in my experience, an expression of internal political will by the powers that be . Convening Authorities always controlled the outcomes no matter what Committees did. I was chairman of one Committee of Evidence that was convened by RTC and I literally got phone calls from the convening authority during meetings with the Interested Party to make sure I was doing the right thing, i.e. things were leading to the outcome desired for this person by RTC, which was that they remain declared SP.
You are absolutely right. One must have seen them to truly believe it. When I was in SO, the convening authority was always Snr HCO and I remember on every occasion that the push was that it went in a direction already established before. Otherwise the committee was dissolved and another put to finish the work.
Standard scn justice.
It is actually in the official policy. The Committee is always convened by a Convening Authority, always someone with authority in the local organization or an organization higher than the local organization.
In practice, such authorities always answer to the higher authorities that may be involved. For example, if Dave Miscavige ordered the Comm Ev or had anything to do with it you can be sure any findings and recommendations that go against his wishes would be rejected with extreme prejudice by the convening authority. “Follow Command Intention” and “Cover Your Ass” are principles higher than facts in authoritarian groups.
I have been involved with several of these things, both as committee member and as interested party. Often the facts as presented would suggest mitigation or even rejection of some or all of the charges. Never happens. The members all know what is expected of them. Just like a jury where the defense has no say in jury selection. And the judge is the local sheriff.
The wolf was convicted by a 100% majority of the kangaroos on the jury panel! Justice Scientology style!
Imagine how far you would get in an “arbitration” with your cable provider if the arbiter was an executive at Cox. And all the panel members were Cox employees. Probably you’d end up with your bill going up. Surprise!
Bruce exactly! You give the exact picture of how things are about ‘justice’ in scn. If one ends up in front of a comm ev has no escape. And if whoever asked for it is high in rank then to please him (and not have trouble) they will apply exchange type 4 – they will give the guy more than he is entitled to.
I remember a guy from CLO EU that DM asked something about Madrid that wasn’t his duty (renovations) so he had some trouble answering.
DM in his infinite love for others ordered that they take him away from in front of him. The guy – who was a good exec by the way – was immediately comm ev’ed and sent to the RPF as if he were a thug, just to please DM.
Having Int Justice Chief even present at the Garcia’s arbitration, and then when there was the period of time after the arbitration when the findings of the arbiters went to Int Justice Chief, and thence Int Justice Chief was either on the phone, or emailed the findings to the “AVC Ethics Issue Authority” those two upper “authorities” (Int Justice Chief as one, and the AVC Ethics I/A as the other) are just unmentioned in the Garcias case.
The details of Scientology’s arbitration include this oversight by two authorities:
Int Justice Chie
AVC Ethics I/A
And these two authorities are foreign to normal arbitration, and make Scientology arbitration NOT legit.
Scientology arbitration has to be written about in detail, by some academic outsiders or researchers whose paper can be trusted and presented to judges to show Scientology arbitration is not the same as other religions’ arbitration which is acceptable in the US courts.
The two layers of authority is the key difference. Other religious arbitrations don’t have oversight authorities editing the arbiters’ decisions.
——————–
Makes me think the Garcias do have legal standing to sue some US courts for those courts mistake of accepting Scientology’s arbitration as legit.
Sorry this is off thread a bit, but in watching the news of the devastation from the tornadoes, I wonder if the Volunteer Ministers of the C of S are johnny on the spot to help those tornado victims? The church claims they are at every big catastrophy “making a difference.” So where are the yellow shirted VM’s in Kentucky?
It’s too chilly, wet, and miserable for those in the skimpy yellow shirts, Cindy😃
They don’t, ya’ know, do any actual WORK, ya know, and never organize before those PR excursions except to bring the shirts and photographers.
Yes WE all know that Jerre, but the sheeple in the church don’t know that. The VM’s didn’t go to Katrina clean up and rescue either.
When Hurricane Katrina happened in the 90’s, I had an OT VIII friend who lived in New Orleans and he and all his friends, neighbors, and colleagues were all harmed by the hurricane. Besides physical damage to houses, the banks and grocery stores were closed so he couldn’t get to his money. I checked with him by email and he said he needed money to tide him over till things opened up. I was in Scn at the time, so I put word out on their Scn group site. It was not an official church site, but was just a Scn public group.
I spread the word that an OT VIII in New Orleans needs help. (This was before “Go Fund Me” accounts existed.) I told them how to contact him. He did get needed money from me and all the others who helped.
I got a call from a Scn who told me that was bad of me to have posted that on the site about this guy. He said that we were never supposed to show OT VIII’s in a bad light. I said this isn’t a bad light. It was an Act of God per insurance co’s and it is OK to help an OT VIII in need. He said it wasn’t OK cuz it shows them not being able to glow things right. He considered that we should only show OT VIII’s as Gods and never show them as vulnerable.
So I disagreed and hung up. BUT a week later I got a call from the MAA on the Freewinds ship. She got a KR on me from this crazy guy about asking or help for the OT VIII friend. She was questioning me and checking out the situation. I was shocked that the Ship would even read the stupid KR. So as it turned out I was not in trouble for helping and she asked if he had family to go to or if there was a PTS situation which there was. His dad was an SP.
But this shows how brainwashed these people are. Even if they suspect OT VIII’s are not gods, they keep the lie going so as to keep the sheeple believing.
Cindy also here in Italy we are aware of the disaster of these tornadoes. And I thought the same thing as you. Who knows if they will show up to really help or just to take some pictures and then run away home. However, if no one orders them to go there or approves it, they don’t move. They are almost volunteers
but need orders to show up.
Yes that is how Robots are, needing orders to operate. But the church didn’t even fund the VM’s. I had a friend call me to hit me up for a donation so he could go help out somewhere as a VM. I said well isn’t the church paying your way there? He said no, that each VM had to get his own funds to go do this. How cheap can our church be to sit on billions and not pay the VM’s for air fare or food?
Wow!
Hubbard was really a miser. You can see it from his policies and how the staff get paid – not to mention the ban on aid to the most deprived, downstat, which is a crime.
DM, on the other hand, is a sociopath who has reformed scn based on his ego and loves to see others trudging along, but he too is a skinny breed.
AND, if the committee didn’t find exactly what the convening authority specified, the committee members were threatened with the same punishments decreed for the miscreants in the bill of particulars. The logic was a bit fuzzy, but it was well understood by every committee, OR ELSE.
In scn the committees of evidence are always a one-way road. And ‘justice’ in reality is only in favor of the cult.
One will ALWAYS be found guilty of something, and will not be able to escape from ‘receiving due justice’. There are no saints who can help him.
Often and willingly it is just an administrative procedure: everything has already been decided by HCO.
In scn the concept of ‘justice’ is on a par with that of a totalitarian country. It is simply an instrument of control and punishment.
‘$cientology and justice’? Those words never go together.
I am speechless , you guys expecting fairness from a fake entity.🙄
Bingo. Double Bingo.
My conclusion exactly, after years working in the justice department of Scientology, and participating in Sea Org for 27 years, and many times advising other Sea Org members of the loopholes that do exist.
What is gained is re-entry to the quackery cult. Who really wishes that, if they have their heads on straight?
Why this is so hard for outsiders to relate it, is why do people fight so hard and even attempt all the hoops and actions to undo their injustices by the cult, to win their way back into participation with the cult?
It’s truly hoops to being allowed to throw away your life and money doing snipe-hunting quackery?
It’s incredibly messed up.
(When I first got out, since I was an expert in policy, I unfortunately spend several years on the phone talking people through how they could undo injustices Scientology did to them. I was like a helper for Scientology, inadvertently, telling kicked out members how they were incorrectly unjustly messed over by even Hubbard’s rules they shouldn’t have had done to them.)
It’s such a long bad proposition trying to get justice, since injustice by a quackery cult is a good thing.
People kicked out should stay out at all costs, and take it as a plus.
Hubbard admitted failure at the end of his life, plus he was unable to use his own secret exorcism procedures to exorcise a really pesky troublesome surplus soul he never was able to exorcise.
Failed at his own quackery exorcism, and admitted failure.
Who wants that. Who in their right mind would fight injustices of a quackery exorcism group, to try get back into that exorcism group and be made pay exorbidant amounts of money and time to do the quackery exorcism?
Today, I tell newbies the Xenu info, about how Hubbard failed at his own exorcism of Xenu’s body-thetan at the end of his life, and was in sad mental shape.
The best thing outsiders can know is the Xenu theory, and to tell the Xenu theory to all concerned, since Scientology leaves you alone if you tell them Xenu theory.
Hubbard made Scientology rules to leave the people who talk Xenu theory alone.
So, best thing to know about Scientology, is Xenu theory, and Scientology will leave you alone.
“‘$cientology and justice’? Those words never go together.”
Except in the organization’s protests against REAL justice which attempt to make scientology SOUND like a just and reasonable organization and that they should be allowed to do whatever they want, to whomever they want, whenever they want.
Here is my disagreement with the use of committees of evidence as arbitration. The definition of arbitration is:
Arbitration
The submission of a dispute to an unbiased third person designated by the parties to the controversy, who agree in advance to comply with the award—a decision to be issued after a hearing at which both parties have an opportunity to be heard.
Now, from what I read, (not what I hear from others but the actual documents) the scientology version of arbitration is that a committee of scientologists will hear the dispute and settle the issue.
That, by definition, is not arbitration. It is simply an edict from above. The result is predetermined and is not arbitration.
I also didn’t realize that crimes were open to arbitration. A lot of what I read are blatant crimes and have not place in arbitration. Their place is in a court of law.
Just my opinion.
So treating Scientology as it actually is qualifies as a suppressive act?
Yes: The most suppressive act is telling the truth about scientology. Once THAT gets out, scientology is DOOMED! don’cha know? scn only exists because of the lies told about it and its operation, CAN only exist when the truth isn’t known.
Such excellent and clear documentation and as succinct as is possible with this complex subject. Thank you, Mike! Very much appreciated.
Claire and Marc Headley giving insight about Scientology is always interesting.
Marc Headley’s book “Blown for Good” is a must, and Mark with the descriptions of the different scenarios gives so much insight into the dark and crazy depths of cult-life and the toxic sphere of David Miscavige and his enforcer lackeys. It should be to be made into an action- and crime movie.