Aharon Friedman is a professor of Physics and Electrical Engineering, a former scientologist and today serves on the Board of the Israeli Center for Cults’ Victims. Unlike L. Ron Hubbard, he really IS a nuclear physicist, his official title is Head – Schlesinger Knowledge Center for Accelerators and Radiation Sources. We talk about his experiences in scientology, what drove him to escape and his work helping victims of cults today.
The brilliant book Man’s Search For Meaning by Viktor Frankl about his time in Nazi concentration camps and what he learned from his experiences:
The infamous scientology Dissemination Drill — “finding the ruin.”
Marriage Hats by Mary Sue Hubbard:
The Ideal Org program — an earlier post I did to explain the origins and reasons for this failed program.
The full text of Debbie Cook’s Email on 31 December 2011:
Debbie Cook testimony on the stand
All About Radiation book, written by a “Nuclear Physicist” (L. Ron Hubbard).
And an article debunking of virtually everything it contains.
The Purification Program Debunked
Israeli Center for Cult Victims
This is the first podcast of yours that I have listened to. Podcasts aren’t really my thing but your subject, Professor Aharon Friedman, was too good to resist.
I really enjoyed it.
My only criticism is that Leah speaks over your subject so often.
I understand that she may feel that she is giving context, but so many times I wanted to hear what Professor Aharon Friedman was about to say but Leah interrupts him.
I’ve been a Scientology watcher for two decades so I may not need the explanations that Leah provides and I may be really off base on this… but just some feedback.
Otherwise, it was a great listen and I thank you for it.
Hi Aharon – I was shocked a couple of years ago seeing you here commenting (cause I thought you were still in) but happy you got out. I was one of your original employees way back when the beginning in Jersey and then we moved to Tampa, what a fiasco. I want to state that I admired your brilliance and that I thought you weren’t the militant scientologist. I didn’t know and always wondered what happened to your company so was interested in your recap here today. From what you said, in hind sight, I wonder if A.S. (I will not name him) wasn’t reporting back to the church all of your moves. He did work for the Guardian’s office back in the day and would give his last ounce of blood.
Good to hear you’re flourishing in Israel, I remember your wife’s sculptures and hope she’s continuing with her art.
Professor Friedman rightly calls out Hubbard as “Lafayette” at the beginning of this tape. Hubbard was of French origin. After 50 years in Scientology I saw that my background as Slavic conflicted with him.
I did not speak English until a teen and Hubbard seemed strange to me. Hubbard was limited by French culture.
QUESTION FOR MIKE:
Have you tried to get Jon Horwich and Jay Hurwitch on your show?
Both could talk about the original OEC program on the Apollo.
Jon was truly so important, behind the scenes, in Scientology history.
He wrote untold number of “FLag Orders” and assisted on ontold number, for the running of Action Missions. Remember Mike?
And then Jon wiith Jay, they did the original OEC FEBC program, and again, Jon wrote the Flag Orders for the running of the Flag OEC FEBC course.
Today, Clearwater Scientology are supposedly running this OEC program again, I was told staff have been sent to Flag in Clearwater for the revamped updated OEC/FEBC.
Jon and Jay would be historical.
And then, again, in 1981, Jon and Jay did that revamped program (I was busted then, from sup to word clearer, I stayed loyal to the training, that was my “hat in life” type of thing at that time).
Anyways, Jon Horwich truly, is a huge huge person who I hope someone gets him to speak, and I wish you could get him, and Jay, on.
Chuck
Debbie’s “pension” settlement sounds like 15 thousand a month. Not too bad.
That’s what Prof says 44:40 point.
On what Scientology gives to people as part of their settlement, for someone of Debbie’s stature, to me, the hope factor of Debbie, as she in everyone’s mind is instantly someone who were Miscavige gone, she’d easily get “reprieved” or approved to be in “good graces” again, and a different ED Int could easily even approve her paperwork to reinstate into Sea Org, and even to leadership ranks, truly, since on principle, she did nothing wrong.
Anyways, to me, the “money” Scientology pays to settle with people, yes, if compared to pensions for regular companies, fine, that seems good for a CO FSO ex Sea Org “pension” for all the income FSO ever brought into SCientology ,that’s even small potatoes honestly.
But, a religion, it’s not supposed to be about the middle/upper-middle/rich class “rewards” to having done one’s “religious” duties, even in “top management” or the top producing religious sub operation of the movement, the FSO which was making 1-3 million a week, under Debbie. The whole setup though, is LRH’s rules framework and the whole staffing who themselves deserved reasonable “pensions” too.
But to me, again, this is supposed to be Scientology upper Sea Org staff we are talking about and what they are monetarily due in comparison to real world religious leader/managers’ pensions.
Well, I don’t know who considers what valuable in those realms of thinking.
To me, I wasn’t there, ever, for the payback in monetary. I was there still in my head today for the theory and corpus “legacy” upkeeping of the Hubbard cannon, essentially.
For Scientology to always bargain a long serving staff member’s “silence” vs a “pension” is foreign to me.
I wonder how this compares world wide in human history, when the decent ex leader’s of a “religion” were silenced with pensions.
I’m kind of more favoring viewing oneself in wider longer historical terms, and the big downside to being bought off, is Debbie is silent.
And Mike, for instance, and Leah, and and and , didn’t get their pension deals, LOL.
But I loved Debbie Cook, she was a decent leader and still for sure did more than her share, but this isn’t normal still.
Scientology paying off ex top leaders, getting silence, getting history closed off from their sharing it, when validly they should be able to tell their history if they wish, to me is a foul bargain of modern law and this money orientation lower moral thing to it.
SURVEY QUESTION for ALL:
Context: The “duck test” principles.
(If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc, then it’s a duck.)
1). Does Scientology pass the “duck test” as regards to being a religion? _________yes. __________no
2) Is someone who practices the Hubbard Scientology “auditing” counseling/pseudo-therapy/exorcism who is not a member of official Scientology, not an IAS member, etc, etc, what are they?
(I’m limiting these people to those who perform the “auditing” and the exorcism (OT 3, 4, 5 6 and 7 levels dealing with body-thetans), do these outside practitioners of the same Hubbard practices be considered:
a) Scientologists just like official Scientologists. ________yes. __________no
b) Non Scientologists (just citizens) who practice the auditing/exorcism Scientology practices.
__________yes __________no
(My motives are due to this limiting understanding I was led to believe, which is all non official Scientologists are not Scientologists. Fine, but that gets confusing when actual non Scientologists do do auditing, like the Nation of Islam followers who do Scientology auditing and someday I imagine some might even do the exorcism levels of Scientology too. Plus, what about atheist, and total non believer researchers who wish to do the Scientology “auditing” and exorcism to try it out, and not do it under the confines of official Scientology, like reporters, or anyone who is just a regular citizen and has no intention of switching to become a full blown Scientollogist. I’ve run into such people, mainly spiritualist people who believe in the heavy duty soul activity going on in the world, they can instantly see the “worth” of Scientology’s “OT levels 3, 4, 5 6 and 7” to some degree, maybe not the volume that Scientology does, but they get the concept readily of surplus souls which Scientology’s heavy duty exorcism directs all the upper Scientologists to target the body-thetans on OT 3, 4, 5 6 and 7.).
I’m just thinking out loud some questions I had for years and years, in my jobs in official Scientology, especially when I reached ASI and was able to read how spiritualists did have open minds about Scientology’s soul therapy stuff. But they would never be members of Scientology, but sure, some of them would even probably give auditing and the body-thetan exorcism a try, and it’s totally up their spiritualist alley of activities, some of them. Past lives therapy and all. Hubbard tried probably not to allow this type of use of his auditing and exorcism, for sure. But that’s not how the outside world operates. There will be dabblers out there, and they won’t consider themselves Scientologists I doubt.
1. It’s blatantly faith-based, regardless of what Hub or the church claims. And whilst a scientologist’s faith is not exclusively religious, there is enough there to justify its religious status.
Religious status and tax-exempt/charitable status are two very different things (in my country at least).
2. In terms of practice, one could reduce “scientology” to a form of biofeedback therapy. One could reduce it even further to just its processes – many of which are rooted in guided imagery and visualisation (eg. BT exorcism).
What makes it “scientological” is arguably its adherence to Hub’s exact theories/religious narrative. If one practices this form of biofeedback, irrespective of whether they use the church or an outsider to guide them through said processes, they are free to call themselves whatever they want.
I’d also argue that “scientologist” is an absolute and, per LRH, unobtainable. To embrace it as an identity/label seems illogical/reductive.
I appreciated the annotated version of Debbie Cook’s email published on Tony Ortega’s blog as it gives explanation of the terminology in her email: https://tonyortega.org/2022/01/01/ten-years-later-debbie-cooks-indictment-of-scientology-under-david-miscavige-annotated/
In her email to the scientology masses in 2012, Ms. Cook expresses her dedication to the core belief in L. Ron Hubbard and scientology. Her email content clearly shows how entrenched her mind was in the cult. My questions: Have the consequent years of separation from the scientology cult changed Debbie Cook’s position of belief in scientology? Did her departure impress her to pursue the truths about scientology and its creator to help herself with her own healing from cultic abuse?
Excellent tape. This man is an authority. I learned that both smart and dumb people actually fell for Scientology. Hubbard just followed Satan’s pattern.
Satan? Would this be literally a being of some sort or are you speaking in the figurative sense as regards the evil of which mankind is capable?
Good question. You may know that I am Buddhist with a background as a Catholic. Satan or Mara in Buddhism is actually seen as a real person but without the full evil. Totally cool anyone can thus be Satan. In “Paradise Lost” Satan is pure evil. I lean to Buddhism but see the evil part of Satan nonetheless.
Another great episode. Such an interesting story.
I’ve just read the Hats. Is this considered essential reading in Scientology? Was Mary Sue considered of similar status to LRH? I can’t imagine he would want to share the glory with Mary Sue.
brill, looks to be very informative so i look forward to this weeks episode as usual.
A quick question off topic, has anyone asked the question yet as to why scientologists “FAIR GAME” those who oppose them when one of their main pulls is the ability to clear a person of their reactive mind? or is it because the object of fair game is usually a WOG/SP/PTS so the rules don’t apply?
How contradictory is it that the main manchild himself DM has such a well documented history of reacting to situations that he is supposed to have no reactions to – for example in his abusive treatment of staff in the hole for pissing him off in one way or the other is just one other that comes to mind? should he not be in full control or have completely removed the reactive mind from himself? so in theory such trivial things should not goad a reaction from him at all yet he in fact reacts and overreacts personally every time. I’m sorry I forget what level of OT DM even reached but I’m sure its part of the basic training to at least try to rid the reactive mind because if so he’s not doing very well at it.
I get fully that the church members still active and under his spell likely see none of this and of course think nothing other than of DM to be a god amongst them……. and I assume they are told nothing to the contrary, experience nothing to the contrary (as he’s locked away in his tower most of the time now hiding from the FBI – I bet its years since the average scientologist has even seen him in the flesh)……but surely those that do bare witness to his frequent outbursts of reactions (his abuse of other staff, his fair game tactics and just his general dummy out of the pram hissy fits) do wonder WTF is he doing?
he is literally the worst example of a scientologist there has veer been yet they don’t see it…….. I guess those that remain are so deeply in now that they just cant possibly see it?
just a though that’s kept playing on my mind of late
M
To: Maria McCartan
From: David Miscavige COB RTC
Re: Calling me a man-child.
Man child? MAN CHILD?! HOW DARE YOU! How dare you liken
me to a mere toddler(whom we all know is actually an adult)! You have no right to make such an insinuation against the most theta being on the planet; me!
Cease at once!
ML
Dave.
To: David Miscavige COB RTC
From: Alcoboy
Re: above comment.
No bottle of scotch for you until you finish eating your spinach! And I mean it, young man!
No love at all,
Alcoboy.
Lol I wonder if he does read this blog, would he dare, would he have the balls…..
Tiny boots?
NAAAHHH!
He’s too much of a wuss.
Kinda weird that Hub’s symbol for love/marriage is both a thaumaturgic triangle (used in ritual magick) and a former logo of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Maybe his marriages included magic tricks and getting drunk.
Sounds about right. 😂
I read the marriage hats thing. I have been married to Mrs. safetyguy (sometimes called safetygirl) for soon to be 45 years. I have learned a bunch of things about marriage in that time. Heck, I know form the beginning that the “hats” that were talked about are a bunch of garbage. Sorry, I always believed it was as much my responsibility to help keep our home clean as hers. I also believed I was just as responsible as she was to raise our child.
And, yeah, let me start with that “hay processed through the bowels of a male bovine” and see how my (How do you guys say it?) 2D would go. Yeah, right. Give me a freakin break. My wife and I are a team. Each member of the team helps and supports the other. There is no yours or my “jobs” in marriage it is all our job.
Nice comment safetyguy. It only took our team 35 years to finally agree on a few things. I guess we have a lot to learn about 2D.
Loved your comment, safetyguy. You sound like a dream husband and yes, I get that it took you a while to evolve 🙂 Curious, though; as a team wherein it is just as much your responsibility as it is your wife’s to help keep your home clean and raise your child, would it be just as much her responsibility to earn a living to help pay the bills?
Before my son was thought of we discussed the matter of her working. WE came to a agreed upon decision that she would stop working as long as he was in school and I would take care of making money. That did not completely end my helping with the cleaning but she did do most of it. However, she did not work outside of the home after he was home. Heck, she worked her butt off enough keeping up with him during the day. He was always a daddy’s boy so as soon as I got home I took care of him including putting him to bed. For a number of years I worked more than one job to pay the bills but it was well worth it. Once he was in college I was able to cut back to only one job. He went to college on an academic scholarship so that took a lot of money worries away.
I wouldn’t take anything in the world for her or him.
Needed to add, I have a somewhat different take on leadership than Hubbard did. To me being a leader is about being a servant. If I am to lead a group I must serve that group. I need to get them the tools they need to get their job done and the time and anything else they need too. They are what is important. Too many business leaders do not realize that their biggest asset is the people that work for them. If they did they would take better care of them and the people they lead would be much happier.
But that is just me.
So excited for this episode! Can’t wait 😁
OOOOOOoooooo! Can’t wait!
Is this the Mary Kahn? I’ve just started rewatching the Aftermath series. I’m watching S1E3, your episode, as I type. I hope you are doing well.
Oooo. Yes. That lighthearted little episode 😉.
Thank you for your well wishes.