This article is written by Lois (Jory) Reisdorf. She was one of the original Commodore’s Messengers aboard the Apollo, and I have known her and her husband Gary since being shipmates together back in the 70’s. They left the Sea Org in the 80’s, raised 3 boys and were off anyone’s radar screen. Scientology managed, as it so often does, to poke the sleeping lioness and steal one of her cubs. More on that story will be forthcoming, along with some fascinating insights into the early days of the Sea Org and L. Ron Hubbard and on up through the rise of David Miscavige. For now, this will serve as an introduction to Lowie (as she has always been affectionately known), who with her South African heritage (and still the slightest of accents), red hair and fierce protectiveness has always evoked images of a lioness in my mind.
FLEECING THE SHEEPLE
This is a story of how the Church fleeces it’s sheeple into donating towards buildings. There are many stories I have to tell about my life and what has happened to us and they will come out slowly, but due to the recent post of the Valley OTC Minutes, I just had to get this story out as it is so apropos.
To make a long story very short, I am a 2nd generation ex-Scientologist and hence 2 of my sons became 3rd generation Scion’s. However this happened to them later in life — in their 20’s — as I did not bring them up as Scion’s, it happened due to certain circumstances and these stories will come out. Our eldest son never got involved.
Our youngest son has disconnected from all of us in the family and we have not heard from him in almost 2 years. At this point he is a lost cause. However our middle son was also involved and luckily for us we managed to get him out and that is also another story in and of itself, which will come out later, however I want to recount the fleecing he experienced:
My husband and I were finally declared in January of this year and luckily our middle son was realizing what he was involved with and basically told the ethics officer to F….off when they wanted him to disconnect from us. He was staff at our local org. He worked madly at the org and also endured over 800 hours of the new SRD (Survival Rundown), so he was basically there all day and evenings. He lived at home and we supported him and made sure we did not discourage him from being at the org, as we did not want to lose him……from 2012 onwards it has been an anxious time for us.
The local org had already raised money for the rehab of their building. But after that, a CMO mission came to the Org to now raise money for the LRH Hall which is going to be built in Clearwater. Oh boy…..the pressure was now on for him to donate to this! And the local staff and public had already donated all they could to the new org building, that they could not help on the hall, so it was up to middle son to do so.
Middle son had no money, he was living at home and being supported by his parents so he could “help” the world and there were many weeks when the staff got nothing, or maybe $50 or whatever. He had already maxed out his credit cards towards donations and various other things. There was no way he could get more credit. So a plan was hatched –wealthy church goers would “loan” money to middle son and he would then pay them back with monthly payments. The “loaned” money did not go into middle son’s accounts, but went directly to the church in his name. So in effect, middle son did not receive said money, it just went straight to the church.
This amount of money “loaned” was to the tune of $60,000. Middle son of course, sees his stupidity now, but at the time he was assured this was the greatest good for the greatest # of dynamics, and husband and myself were in the middle of being comm-ev’ed at AOLA and he was told that his donations towards this hall would “help” with our comm-ev. They did not even take into account the fact that there was no way to pay this money back and of course, he was told to “make things go right” to make the payments.
This is a “normal” operating basis to raise money. There is one couple who are staff at this org who have donated a million dollars by refinancing their home to the max and other staff members who are in debt up to their necks. There were times middle son saw these staff members in tears, due to the pressure of “fund raising”. These were for donations for the local org rehab.
Fast forward to the middle of 2015, us parents were in trouble with SCN (another story) and knew we were going to be declared and middle son also knew things for him were also going to be bad. We started working on him to get out as youngest son had already disconnected from us and we realized there was no way we could handle him, so being in a desperate situation of possibly losing 2 of our sons, and due to the fact middle son lived with us, we got him out by the end of 2015, before we got declared. All along he assured us that he would never disconnect, and he never did. We give huge kudos to our middle son for standing his ground, and having the integrity to leave.
Middle son as of yet, has not been officially declared, even though we are quite sure he has. He is OUT and will never go back. The church knows all about this……….but those stupid Scio’s who “loaned” the money still text middle son and/or call and send emails requesting he pay this money back.
There is no way he can pay this money back and is in fact bankrupt and we are helping him out, but NOT for this. We did not know about this “loaned” money until a few months ago when he finally admitted to us what happened.
The mental anguish this, in addition to other things, put our son through eventually caused a mental breakdown.
Regardless of what people think about LRH or Scn or whatever; this fund raising/IAS bullshit is the MOST destructive thing and the most off-policy actions I have ever seen being done on such a broad scale. I just don’t get how the most die-hard Scion’s and especially “old timers” can think that this is okay. Just blows my mind. It is criminal.
Interesting story Lois and thank you for relating it. Now of course it is bad enough (understatement) scamming the remaining (daft and docile) public from their pensions, houses and savings in return for the hundreds of hours of unnecessary sec checking caused by the scamming in the first place (as even sheeple really know they are being scammed), but the mentality that it is ok to rake in money and ruin the usually impoverished staff takes the biscuit (of disgust). In the old West IAS and Ideal Org regges would have been tarred and feathered out of the town. Personally I wouldn’t have objected to hanging a few either! Disgusting creatures – ruining people’s lives and also making they out they are “Scientologists”. This act epitomizes the regime of the last 30 years.
One thing that doesn’t appear to be mentioned……
If the cos have established a link between lenders and recipients, does this not make them a “financial advisor” or “arranger”?
Over in the UK an organisation which partakes in this is supposed to be registered and regulated…….
If this is the case in the USA then the above case as outlined by Lois is downright illegal by the cos anyway.
I’m of the opinion that middle son is not legally or morally obliged to repay anything.
Tough on the people who loaned the money, but they should have seen it coming…..
Mike –
I have difficulty seeing how LRH left the church and reportedly went into hiding in 1976, with only four people in contact with him as his only communication lines, and still knew what was going on in the church. (The four people, I heard, were Pat and Annie Broeker, a guy you named for me almost three years ago now, and notably David Miscavige). I have even more difficulty believing he would do a 180 and sabotage a lifetime of work.
Surely, you would not have me buy that you think Miscavige is but an innocent babe, moral and ethical beyond reproach, an ecclesiastical leader of an international religion who is uninvolved in the day-to-day operations of the church? Concerned only with spiritual matters? Alright, maybe that’s too sarcastic (it is humorous, imo), but do you really think he had no hand in changing the Bridge? I’ll have to think this over a bit more.
I am just pointing out, as I think most would, that I see a green light, or a building, or the name of a street, or an open restaurant – or any other factual thing I see. I’m beginning to entertain a wild notion that the world periodically goes through some undetected atmospheric condition which renders its population especially nutty for a while – a mega-lunar cycle or something. But I fear the nuttiness is rather chronic. The Gods of Ancient Egypt, of Ancient Greece, of Ancient Rome, of India, the Dark Ages, the almighty Roman Catholic Church, the Reformation, the Irish bloody conflict, The Moonies, the Jedi Knights at least are light-hearted and though I know little about them, if they stand for The Force, they aren’t The Dark Side. Where in all this, is the truth? It seems to somehow bear the brunt of attacks, the innocent victim of the unreasoning. The truth has never failed me, even when it says I screwed up bad. Maybe especially then, the truth reveals and cleanses. It’s only when I try to twist the truth to suit me, that I get in trouble. “Big Trouble in Little China” kind of trouble. Awful stuff. Five thousand year old men chasing 20 year old girls trouble.
This was meant to be a reply to your reply to my reply to My 2 Cents, way below. I hope it shows up there and not as a fresh comment out of context. Sorry if I messed up.
Not sure where you get the idea Hubbard went into hiding in 1976. I was with him at LaQuinta in 1979. He was definitely very engaged in running scientology and specifically the tech.
Hi Lois. I know of a similar story from the Miami ideal org fundraising. The matter was referred to the IJC and after some time, the loans were returned (a huge amount, in the region of a million if memory serves — a lot more than the 60k you mention). Clearly, this type of fundraising is off policy – and it is extortion (not that the CoS seems to care about that or that fundraising is off policy too!). Your son might want to consider putting the ball back in their court by referring it to the IJC – and help the lenders too, since they were no doubt at the receiving end of some b/s story too. In the meantime the CoS is making interest on that money (which they did not earn, but “pressure begged” er… demanded) while everyone else is upset. If they declare your son ….. well ….refer to Espiando’s comment below. I hope it works out for your family.
“Not in the sense taught by L Ron Hubbard, but in the plain old “wog world” sense criminal.” You’re kidding us, of course?
“… in the plain old “wog world” sense criminal.” ?? I don’t know who you mix with but I don’t know ANY “wogs” who are this stupid and they certainly aren’t criminals either. At the moment, apart from the government, the Mafia and co, I don’t see “wogs” doing as much criminal stuff as the church. Hubbard was a the biggest criminal of the lot, dodging law enforcement from very early on!
I hate this type of think. It’s typical church/scn think – a matter of the pot calling the kettle black! It’s not acceptable, really.
“This amount of money “loaned” was to the tune of $60,000. Middle son of course, sees his stupidity now, but at the time he was assured this was the greatest good for the greatest # of dynamics, and husband and myself were in the middle of being comm-ev’ed at AOLA and he was told that his donations towards this hall would “help” with our comm-ev. ”
As others say, this is simply criminal. Not in the sense taught by L Ron Hubbard, but in the plain old “wog world” sense criminal. Now, for finding a prosecutor…
Especially when you consider the part about how making the donation would “help” his parents’s comm-eving. Sounds like blackmail to me. Given the national reach of CO$, it should be a federal case, though local prosecution would be a start. . The son should also file for bankruptcy. He should qualify for Chapter 7, which discharges debts, rather than Chapter 13, which is the “bill-payer plan”, where the debtors would be paid back at least in part out of future earnings. Qualifying for Chapter 7 bankruptcy requires that you have income less than the median for your county for you family size. My guess is that this would be the case for someone on staff or in the Sea Org.
Having the debt discharged in bankruptcy would also be helpful to the lenders, who could then write off the loan as a bad debt on Schedule A of their federal tax return (miscellaneous deductions, I think ) . Most states use the federal taxable income as a basis for calculating state income tax, though adjustments may be made. Depending on their state tax rate, they should recover 30-40%,. possibly more. They should check IRS Publication 17, which details how to do it.
I’m no expert on Bankruptcy, but my understanding is that if the debt is a ‘donation’ the government can go to the ‘charity/church’ and ask for some or all of it back.
It gets a little tricky here because there is a third party involved….who ‘donated’ the money? The whales or middle son? (Who owns the debt)
It might be difficult for the government to reach in and take those funds back if the donation was made by the whales.
This is yet another scam perpetrated by this organization.
I would doubt the Co$ would allow the whales to pursue this in a wig court (as it would bring too many ugly details to light)
So, if I were middle son, I would not sweat it too much.
Sit back for now and wait to see what the whales do.
The Co$ doesn’t care….. they got their money.
This is why I find the ‘all religions are crazy’ argument so frustrating.
NO LEGITIMATE religion would ask a member to borrow money from another person in order to donate it to the church.
In fact, it would be the exact opposite. A legitimate church would say take care of your finances. It’s just insanity that people fall for this. I understand middle son’s position….he was being extorted.
But the whales! Wake up!
Chee Chalker, your comment gave me an idea. Why not have him fix it so that the govt goes back to the church to demand the money. Bad publicity for the church would ensue and this scheme of lending money to people who can’t pay it back so that the leader enriches himself, with no paper trails as to what the money was spent on, this needs to be known about.
If the $60k went directly to the church and not via any organ of the son’s, then what proof is there that the son is implicated. I wouldn’t worry about it.
What about changing telephone numbers and email addresses?
I did not read every comment BUT – who got the tax deduction for the “donations”? If the loan making people your son does not owe them because they did a donation in their name. They donated to the church and got the tax write off. If he got the tax deduction then they may have a small leg to stand on. Was there a contract? If no good – if yes have a lawyer look at it. All parties were screwed to the 10th degree.
If he did not sign a payment agreement with a set amount to be paid he can send a $1.00 a day, week or month and be paying it back. If he signed saying he would pay a % of his paycheck then there is an issue. But if he is making little money then the % should be low.
Fight the good fight and I hope he gets on with his life going forward… your other son will live and learn the hard way. He will be back – we will celebrate with you when that happens.
May each day be filled with love and hope.
Thanks for sharing your story Lois. May you go from strength to strength in your new-found freedom. I agree that your son is not obliged to pay a red cent back to anyone. These “loans” were at best, extremely shady coercion, and at worst, utterly illegal. Next time he gets a message or call asking him for repayment, tell him to respond with two words – the second of which is OFF.
Thank you to everyone for your kind and interesting commentary. It gives me more courage to tell you all , more as the story with middle son is even more interesting and if Mike gives me the okay, I will post the whole story next week. A few points:
– Middle son is now doing very well
– We are considering him doing a bankruptcy
– He does not respond to any texts/phone calls from the whales and in fact they have diminished in recent weeks.
– Yes I do believe that the whales were being pressured themselves and I feel very sorry for them too.
It has been a whirlwind of a year and not in a good way, but we are now on the way up and we as a family are not going effect to all this BS.
I really do appreciate all the comments and I am sorry I cannot answer you individually.
More to come……
Thank you, Lowie, for sharing part of your story with us. I so commiserate with you as the church took both my kids and made both of them disconnect. My only crime was wanting to leave the church until things got back on to standard tech again and/or the midget was ousted. But they don’t allow you to just leave quietly. It is their way or the highway. And saying to you that his taking a loan to donate would help your Com Ev is nothing more than extortion and blackmail. The fact that you were declared anyway shows you how much sway that donation had in your Com Ev. Please do publish more of your story here. Kudos to you for saving one of your sons from the maw of the church. So sorry for you about the son who is still in and disconnected. Also can you tell us stories of how it was in the early days when you were a Commodore’s Messenger? I figure you have seen and heard much of the real stuff about LRH that is never published due to its being out PR.
Thanks that you have been free and may all of your sons be free and safe also/// This is exactly the “Usury” that the “wasband” (Ex-husband) has been involved with for the last 37 years. I am ashamed that I did not speak up. But it was before the Internet and i did not realize the horror of his “work” for the cherch that was going on.
It is truly Usury & deceitful money tactics. Too bad the IRS and the Government does not get involved.
My kids, so far, have never returned to the cult or its’ messages. My oldest son, who has NO interest in the cult that destroyed his family, continues to received their flyers. Obviously the wasband wants to get them to become robots like him.
Lois,I am very happy to meet you here.Thank you for sharing yet another riveting,heartvwrenching story which links onto the chain of truth,I feel privileged to help read about & weave my story onto as well.The IAS was after my SO time,but from what I have read here & elsewhere,it is criminal, as I feel so much of what the cult still hides and hides behind is.As a Leo I welcome a beautiful lioness.?
It’s sad to hear you refer to your son as a “lost cause”.
Dear Jory,
Thank you for sharing your story. There but for who knows what, go I. I sent my child to a Scientology camp one period of time to solve a problem. It solved the problem and big surprise, turned him into a Scientologist. He wanted to stay. I realized I’d miss him too much and the cost would be brutal. We said no, he came home, well behaved (big change) not addicted to the computer, (another big change) and got over his anger with us. About a year later he decided he wasn’t a Scientologist and gently pulled back. He always had “reasons” he was too busy for course, or an event. He was mad skillful. And we weren’t anyone’s idea of gung-ho or even “good” Scientologists, so we didn’t know a change had taken place.
He came out as a non-Scio to us a couple of years later. We were like “OK.” He was like, “you’re not going to give me any shit or make me do conditions?” “Nope, it’s your choice.”
His next anxiety was our involvement because he couldn’t discuss what he’d discovered online. When we came out of the cherch, his level of happiness was very high.
When I look back on the possibility that he could have gone the other way I shudder. For that reason I feel so sad for you Jory at your currently lost son. And the damage the cherch did to your recently out son. Well done on getting out and supporting your family and being the shining mom you are.
I am so grateful that you are sharing your story with us. Just feel the love from this mom. It’s here in my heart for you. I look forward to further aspects to your very interesting story my brave friend.
Harpoona wrote something new to me and correct. The cherch does ‘dismember families.’ The true core of a family isn’t just destroyed, but taken apart as a punishment for whatever the cherch deems an overt by the cherch member. Its a punishment, given by a staff member on some perceived outness. Real churches and religions try to unite families. I got pregnant before i went to college by my h.s. boyfriend and my rabbi helped us to get married and have the baby, rather than an abortion in mexico. Real spiritual peopl and groups want what is best for the family. My family was dismembered by the cult for something i never did. Scn was the biggest mistake in my life.
If someone were able to start a new organization to deliver the good in Scientology while avoiding and preventing the bad, what would be the ideal method for it to generate enough income to cover its legitimate expenses including paying necessary staff a living wage?
Not possible. Scamology in ANY version never was popular enough to attract enough people to pay enough to make it a viable enterprise. THAT is an irrefutable fact.
Not true. In the late 60’s a Clear Class 6 field auditor or mission holder could make a decent living and train his pc’s to be auditors, and quite a few did. That’s where the big missions of the 70’s came from. They were financially viable.
Meanwhile the orgs weren’t financially viable, for these reasons: (a) They hired way too many staff. (b) They hired staff who weren’t auditor trained. (c) The Sea Org took too much of their money. (d) The Sea Org stamped out the local entrepreneurial management that put most orgs there in the first place.
Thank you. That jives with what I’ve learned, and your summary is very clear and concise.
My Two Pence. SCAMOLOGY was NEVER popular enough to make a viable ENTERPRISE (for all the word “tek” you supposedly know you suck at English comprehension). That the Mission OWNER could PERSONALLY make $ does NOT make it viable for ALL the employees that NEVER made a living wage. I was there. It NEVER happened. EVER
Help people to resolve their own suffering.
That would make them happy, truly happy.
Then money and survival would be a result, not a goal.
The people leading this new brand of Scientology must be very moral people. That means people who study, practice and demonstrate Dharma; living by common (cosmic) standards of decency and thereby harmoniously supporting self evolution spiritually and materially . Agreed upon by all benevolent schools of wisdom.
The new brand of Scientologist has an entire world that thinks Scientology is a public pariah. That’s quite a PR mind fuck.
Just serve your fellow man with love and service. Call it something else. The word Scientology has a universal collective definition of crazy assed-alien freaky-dangerous cult.
Change the name and announce to everyone which LRH doctrines you are setting ablaze. You must present your version of Ron that also includes he did not go free.
He did not help another go free. He helped people and they felt good but that is not liberation.
Denounce every evil doctrine that paranoid Ron wrote (Bolivar and Fair Game etc)
Don’t run from the OT3 story. Because we out here in Woglandia we know why people shy away from speaking about it. Because the story is so absurd they deflect being seen. Just be honest. You buy the OT3BT theory. Fine. Many will challenge you on it.
So
1) be of service not a business.
2) reveal Ron’s dark evil side. Reveal it through finding his controlling, manipulating and soul destroying doctrines and trash them all.
Mostly good advice, but you didn’t answer my question. How should a new organization doing good finance itself?
If the good in Scientology will offer wonders for the world like you claim it will, then offer it for free. Have all of L. Fraud’s books and lectures available in a Christian Science reading room type of arrangement, and make sure you can download them as PDFs for the books and MP3s for the lectures. Live on voluntary donations. You know, like every other legitimate religious organization out there.
In other religions low-level services are generally free, but there are often charges for major education and 1-on-1 counselling. For example, prior to Scientology I was involved with a Vedic spiritual movement, which charged fees for meditation instruction, educational retreats, etc. My mother was a Baha’i, and paid for books and courses she did each summer. We lived about a mile from a major Christian seminary, which charged tuition to train ministers. And before Tibet was taken over by China, it was a theocracy in which the common people were basically involuntary serfs, supporting monasteries that functioned like feudal manors in Europe. What do you think about all this?
I went to a Catholic high school. Yes, my parents paid for it. I’m no longer Catholic. I’m still in favor of the “free” option.
Since you’re still intent on ripping off people for this shitshow, how about a compromise? Processing side of the Bridge for free all the way up the Bridge to OTVIII, C/Sing also free. Training side requires a tuition, but nothing like the rates the cult charges. Special services such as the Ls or Stupid Power can be considered the equivalent of a paid retreat, but, again, not at $1000/hour paid for in intensives. If you’re correct and Scientology is something that’s helpful, then there will be people who will be attracted to the training side and will be willing to pay to learn to audit others. And if someone doesn’t want to become an auditor, he or she will still be helped by the Tech, and isn’t that one of the two products of an Org, well-adjusted PCs?
Espiando, the people doing the work need to get paid, even if very little income is retained by the organization.
The Ron’s Orgs have an interesting approach. They do charge something for training, but push co-auditing at lower levels, and charge only for C/Sing at the higher solo levels, of which there are about 40. I don’t know any details of this, but it seems like it might work pretty well.
I don’t think that there actually is an economically viable model for providing $cn services going forward because of the cult’s very well deserved horrible reputation and the public’s growing awareness of exactly how it earned it.
I know that different folks have tried different things outside of the cherch in the freezone, but none of that seems to have panned out to well, as far as I’m aware. Do you see any hope that $cn can survive in some sort of alternate organizational form?
Harpoona, I know independent field auditors who are doing fine, but a lot of their business seems to be from existing Scientologists who’ve left the Church. These auditors do get raw public pc’s, too, but mostly from referrals from satisfied customers plus personal networking that plays down the Scientology brand, which I agree is broken as far as mass marketing goes.
I really hope that Middle Son is declared. Because, if he is, then any move to repay the loaners would jeopardize the loaners’ eternities, since they’d be “connected” to an SP because of that money. It’s a wonderful excuse for Middle Son to never have anything to do with them ever again, which is exactly what he should do. And the loaners wouldn’t dare go to wog courts to try to get recompense, because that’s against Scientology Justice.
Disconnection works both ways, bitches. Enjoy losing your money forever, and you can thank your cult for that.
Although there was not enough detail in the story to know for sure, my bet is that the well off $cilons who loaned middle son the cash to make his donation were themselves pressured, and perhaps coerced, to do so. That’s not to argue that they are not culpable as well; it’s just to highlight how insidious and manipulative this money-grubbing criminal fraud group is.
They’re not satisfied when you’re flat broke; they’ll continue to hound your unfortunate ass until you’re as debt-ridden as they can manage to make you. And even young $cilons, like her middle son who have no money or credit, are targets for the kind of sleazy scam she described. I say, why wait for $cn to declare you, call them for the evil sociopaths that they truly are first!
In Scientology, money trumps eternity.
The mendacity and hypocrisy is astounding! When asked about their monetary practices, the cult usually claims that they are just like any other church: They are supported by the donations of their “parishoners.” This is about as truthful as a Mafia loan shark claiming that he loans out money in the same way as your credit union. Which is true, as long as one overlooks details such as interest rates and the fact that banks send reminder notices not armed leg breakers.
Of course, churches ask their members to contribute; there are bills to be paid and charitable actions to undertake in the community. But members are always encouraged to contribute commensurately with their abilities to do so. I have NEVER heard of a church that doles out “services” on a pre-paid basis or that ties those in with a member being “paid up” even on what they can afford. Among the charges that Christ or Moses (and presumably other religious leaders as well) gave the church was to look out for the poor, NOT to create a whole new class of poor persons!
I personally know a great many people who have received material help from churches, often churches that they were not even members (let alone contributing members) of. I know even more people who turned to churches for spiritual comfort. NONE of them were ever told to come back when they have a 5-figure amount (minimum!) to contribute!
Wow Lois! I’m lost for words on so many aspects of your situation. It must have taken quite the fortitude just to write that, let alone live the through the experience. Family is everything and to see some of them being sucked into a void is heart wrenching. Your courage is phenomenal, but that game isn’t over yet, there’s more to do to get your remaining son out and rebuild life. Best of luck to you.
I do think it’s particularly nasty and essentially fascist orientated imo to hear the money loan cycle has been perfected within the Cof$. That is pure evil (it was around in the 80s) and is a mechanism of extremely debilitating ramifications for all involved. It’s like a machine that sucks in the money source from one end, the ‘loanee’ from the other and chews them both up. All the while the instigator and enforcer of the scheme sits a few countries away and doesn’t even know the names of those he steals money from, nor does he care. The fact that there are uniforms with a chain of command involved is an essential ingredient for such a scheme. No wonder the SO is now more or less dominating/infiltrating all the Orgs with personal & their enforced donation tech, one evil Church hey?
Idea for movie as followup to Ruthless book. Working title: The Cash and The Fuehrerious.
Very good. And the sequel – The Shunned by Eva Shelly Braun.
🙂
Lois, this is so like the Cult of Scientology IAS Fraud to have money go straight to them on a signed contract stating monies are nonrefundable. This forces Scientology public lenders in a position to loan money to staff members who do not have the income to pay it back because they make $50 a week or nothing.
$60,000 @ 0% interest paid back at $50 a week would take 1200 weeks, or 23 years, to pay back. Let that sink in: The Scientology Cult wants to make a young person a 23 year debt slave.
The IAS takes the money and leaves its victims to sort out the mess. This is the essence of Scientology: Financial fraud.
In this case, the IAS acted as an unlicensed loan broker, or loan arranger, who was also the sole financial beneficiary of the loan. Further, the loan violated any reasonable standard of a loan because the person taking the loan was a Church staff member and the IAS knew he did not have the means to repay the loan. This seems to me to be self-dealing and fraud on the part of the IAS.
I would report this improper fundraising transaction to the California and Florida Attorney General’s offices and to the IRS. Use Form 13909: https://scientologymoneyproject.com/2015/04/14/how-to-simply-and-effectively-report-the-church-of-scientology-to-the-irs/
Perhaps not the “sole beneficiary”. What are the odds on the Lenders receiving a 10% commission on the “donation”? I suspect they’d be reasonably high.
Thanks so much for the heart-rending and poignant story of yet another $cn family abused and dismembered by this depraved and evil criminal fraud organization masquerading as a religion. We all look forward to hearing more of your family’s story soon.
“Regardless of what people think about LRH or Scn or whatever; this fund raising/IAS bullshit is the MOST destructive thing and the most off-policy actions I have ever seen being done on such a broad scale. I just don’t get how the most die-hard Scion’s and especially “old timers” can think that this is okay. Just blows my mind. It is criminal.”
So true, and when you combine all that crush regging, “donate now or the world’s going to end” nonsense with the implicit blackmail threat of seeing your parents get declared unless you pony up, then that’s about as contrary and antithetical to what the cherch supposedly stands for as it’s possible to be.
I’m sure that the $cilons in charge stopped just short of making actual blackmail threats (or at least didn’t make them in front of witnesses or in writing), but that doesn’t mean that their intent to coerce through threat and intimidation didn’t come through loud and clear. Your family’s story, and that of so many others just like yours, serves to highlight the point that once you’re out it’s absolutely essential to do everything that you possibly can to see that your kids and other family members are not sucked into the cult, because you can absolutely guarantee that when that occurs the cult will use every possible tactic of threat, blackmail, intimidation and more to either bend you to its will or destroy you utterly…there is NO neutral ground in relationship to this group!
I sincerely hope that you will be able to tell your family’s story in its entirety in the very near future. In that regard, you might wish to contact Chris Shelton, who’s three-part video about another $cn family who were ultimately successful in escaping the cult with their family intact was just featured on Tony Ortega’s Underground Bunker site a few weeks ago ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRQPdVEoR4o ). If nothing else, their success story should provide your family and struggling middle son with hope and affirmation.
Geray Jory was at Int through the 90s, is she still stuck in the vortex of Scn?
I know for a fact that Lois’ sister, Geray is indeed still at Int.
Sorry I should have added this to my other post, but there is no such thing as a verbal contract for loans above a certain dollar amount. (It used to be $500 generally speaking). Those ‘promises’ are not enforceable.
Even if he did sign something, get a copy and get it to a lawyer to review
IMO your son owes the whales absolutely nothing. He has no moral obligation to them.
This is nothing short of extortion.
That’s an interesting thing to post. What country or state does this law exist in? USA, others?
US.
In order to be enforceable, certain contracts need to be in writing.
How do you remember what types of contracts need to be in writing in order to be valid? By using an acronym as a memory device.
For this topic, the acronym is MYLEGS
“Most oral contracts are enforceable. Only certain kinds of contracts have to be evidenced by a writing in order to be enforced. (those contracts are within the statute of frauds).
MY LEGS
Marriage – a promise the consideration for which is marriage (unless the promise is 1 of 2 mutual promises to marry each other) such as a promise by A to pay $10,000 to B if B marries C.
Year – a promise that cannot possibly be fully performed within 1 year, such as a promise by A to employ B for 5 years.
Land – a promise to buy or sell land
Executor – a promise by an executor to pay the debts of the decedent’s estate out of the executor’s own pocket, such as a promise by executor A to pay B a debt owed to B by decedent C’s estate
Goods for $500 or more – a promise to buy or sell goods for a price of $500 more more
Suretyship – a promise made by a surety to a creditor to pay a debt that a debtor owes the creditor, such as a promise by A to pay C a debt that B owes C.”
Everything between the ” ” was not written by me, but sums up the general idea.
Of course, this is just a very generic description of the idea behind it.
I’m still not certain what the ‘loan’ was for and what middle son received for it (the Co$ would argue he received the satisfaction of a religious donation).
Without a note identifying the terms of both the loan and the repayment terms, I don’t know that this would be enforceable.
Did middle son say he would pay them back in a year?
Or ‘when he was able?’
Were any repayment terms spelled out? Any interest rate?
Was middle son ‘purchasing’ a status with this loan? (That is what I was thinking when I initially responded, falls into ‘goods over $500 category’.) Was he purchasing a status that cost $60,000 in ‘donations’?
In addition to all that, the terms of a note need to be specific enough to be determined, otherwise you risk a judge determining the terms for you.
I see these cases on Judge Judy all the time. Usually she can hang her hat on a communication (email, text, etc.) whereby one party admits there was a loan and there was an intention to repay it.
Middle son borrowed money in order to help build the LRH Hall? Is that where the money actually went? (Of course not, it went into a slush fund).
I’m sure middle son was forced to sign some kind of document indicating this was a donation would not ask for a refund.
But the loan was between the whales and middle son. Not the Co$ and middle son.
I wou ld be surprised if the Co$ bothers to get involved with any details in these arrangements other than to introduce the parties. I’m sure they want to walk away with clean hands. Hands that are clenching the money.
So, first thing to do is find anything the son may have signed. Or may have communicated to them. It is good he is not responding. I would continue this course of action.
And, if none of that works, go BK. The ‘loan’ would almost certainly get dismissed (unless of course there are some details that we are unaware of).
Of course each state is governed by its own statutes. MYLEGS is just common law ‘rules’ (to use that term loosely) you can apply when attempting to determine the validity of a contract.
It’s best to always get things in writing. But realize when you do that you should put all the terms down…… otherwise you run the risk of Judge Judy determining what you meant when you said ‘X, Y or Z’. Or she may decide there was no contract at all because there was no ‘meeting of the minds.’
Besides, I thought scientologists were not allowed to sue each other in wog courts? Mainly because it would expose too much dirt of the Co$. So at the end of the day, the whales are left with zero recourse.
It’s definitely worth middle sons time to speak to an attorney. Make it a BK (Bankruptcy) attorney because they’ll really know the rules inside and out.
Wow Chee! That’s quite the answer… thanks.
There sure are some rules to money and what you say about it or commit to, especially without thinking it through. You run the risk of “legal interpretation” which looks like it may well be far and above what either side of a dispute expected or wanted. Of course it should never really be necessary if one kept their word but and it’s a BIG BUT. With attitudes like what is behind greed and criminality such as perpetrated with apparent immunity by the Cof$, it’s advisable to stay well away from any financial commitment of a promissory nature. Unless you really know what you are doing or the risk of failure is well computed and catered for. When using other people’s money and aligning it with your passion, geezers, they don’t mix all that well and there’s always sharks in that water in that pond! Middle son should see a lawyer and the loaner is screwed anyway – both of them will loose out in the long run (even it’s a matter of conscience) and the Cof$ has nothing to do with it… (yeah right) YUCK!
Here’s what I would do. Write down the particulars of the loan, note dates. Note the date of any payment made especially the last one. Do not communicate in any way with emails, letters or phone calls, do not respond back or originate a communication. Note the statue of limitations per one’s state or Country. Keep everything in a file.
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/statute-of-limitations-state-laws-chart-29941.html
Let the clock tick away and forget about it.
Do the same with their stupid “freeloader” debt.
Get on with life. Both so called debt can not be reported to any credit agency so the whale is SOOL, hahaha.
Lois,
Did your son sign any kind of promissory note? Don’t let him be bullied into paying those whales back. Speak with a lawyer before you do anything.
Spending $500 for a few hours of a lawyers times is a much better investment.
Thanks for sharing Lori.
Imagine fleecing a staff member who cannot even support himself. Nothing is off limits.
Received a phone call recently from someone who had long since departed the Cult that Chase Manhattan Bank will loan $40,000 for Scientology services.
This person said the Cult could arrange the loan right away.
The cult would get the immediate $40,000.
The subject could pay back Chase Manhatten over time.
Oh my. This Bank needs an alert.
That makes me remember when a really nice young girl, on staff and fleeced already but was forced regged for a commemorative emeter for $4k. She borrowed the $ from non scio family (equally poor). I still recall the tears when the “rush” subsided and the heartbreak that followed settled in (suppressed from the org of course). It was a huge amount of $ for her and impossible to pay back on staff pay. To make matters worse she wasn’t even trained to use the meter. It is a MkVI and worthless now anyway. Gee that organisation is worthy of and earns the hate they get!
If the banks are in cohorts with the Cof$ – OMG!
Just a few days ago I heard similar stories from people who live an ocean away. This criminality is the work of one person: David Miscavige. True, there are enablers all the way down the line as far afield as Africa and Australia. But can anyone who was in the S.O. at Int level think that Marc Yager, Guillaume Lesevre, Mark Ingber, Wendall Reynolds, Norman Starkey or any other S.O. exec could have 1) thought up these financial tortures or 2) pulled it off to the degree Lowie mentions? One marvels and shudders at the diabolical “genius” of David Miscavige. One wonders at the staggering amount of debt he will have to pay back one day at the Universal Bank of Karma.
Bullshit Dan. It is the criminality of everyone that supports DM. From the Marc Yeager’s, to Marcus Swanson to Heber, et al, all the way down the line. Not possible to be pulled off otherwise. As far as thinking up shit like this? THAT has been going on for a LOT longer than DM has been running things. He is just higher up so can make it policy.
I agree with you, Mike. The exploitativeness of the cult is NOT a bug that “captain” Dave somehow introduced; it’s a FEATURE that LRH carefully designed into it when he decreed that “writing for a penny is ridiculous when you can make millions forming a church.” At the end of the day, this cult was NEVER designed to do anything but make humanitarian Ron rich. And let’s face it, he carted off a lot more money from it than Miscavige ever will.
The problem with every absolutist “it-was-never-good-in-any-way-at-any-time” statement like yours is three-fold:
1) The tonnage of ideas and detailed procedures in LRH’s research track is too great. Even borrowing ideas from previous subjects, LRH put way more work into formulating Scientology than any mere con man would bother with. Over-hype the results? Sure. But just make it all up? No.
2) A lot of people report that while they left the Church due to the abuses of the organization and dissatisfaction with the upper levels, they still consider that they were helped by the lower level services they received, especially in the early days before the Sea Org turned the Church into a totalitarian cult.
3) With apologies to Shakespeare, nothing in life is all good or all bad, but emotional charge makes it seem so.
The upper levels were changed during (and after) the 1976-1980 period of time. The lead tech terminal, David Mayo, “renounced” the Co$ ca. 1982. Even before 1982, significant expulsions (“declares”) had been made – C/Ses who had been trained on the original Bridge, for example. Notably the senior C/S at CCLA was declared, I am told, and the record for the original St. Hill staff declares is well-known, with something like 78% of them being “declared”.
By the early 1980’s, it had become standard practice for a PC to “attest to Clear”, bypassing Power and R6EW and the Clearing Course, then going straight to the OT levels. Those OT levels themselves had been so significantly changed that OT IV-VII were completely rewritten.
The original Bridge was gutted and beheaded. Someone wanted it dead.
The (former) senior C/S at CCLA told me long ago, in response to a question about R6EW and CC, words to this effect: Of all the hundreds of cases I personally C/Sed, not one ever had any complaints about R6EW and the CC. Not. One.
I note that both R6EW and the CC are solo, so they are almost unbelievably inexpensive, on the order of mere hundreds of dollars for C/S fees. Depending on who your auditor is, they may charge a package fee in single digit thousands, for the materials, set-ups (instructions and practical drills on how to) and C/Sing. Those would not be “money-makers” for the Co$. You pay more to have your home interiors repainted. Some dummies pay that much in parking tickets.
The most notable and disappointing change to the original Bridge I noticed was the removal of XDN (Expanded Dianetics) for which the EP (End Phenomenon) was, as I recall: Freedom from cruel impulses and chronic unwanted conditions; ability to act without restraint. It was shortly after that, that NOTs was introduced as a quick clean-up of remnants of OT III, and as I recall the EP for that: “Infinite ARC”. But by that time, I was disliking changes. There are now at least two versions of OT II (and OT II is a very important level).
What I see today, are people who very probably never completed Grades 0-IV, never did Grades V and VA, never did R6EW, never did the CC, skipped right onto OT I-III, then NOTs, and are now auditing solo NOTs for years and years and years.
Parenthetically: I did do NOTs – it ran out in two months. I also went fully exterior with perceptics – it is nothing new, ironically, it does not feel like any “revelation” at all, it is more like crossing a street, just a normal thing. I did exteriorize as an OT III NOTs completion, btw. I know I guess I wasn’t supposed to be able to do that, but I did it anyway. My current focus is on Ethics. I first went exterior brushing my teeth thinking about what I had just read in Nicomachean Ethics (Aristotle). I didn’t drop the toothbrush, but I did stop brushing just for a second there.
The name of of the game is thought, or as LRH preferred to say, considerations.
Just a word of C/S advice to anyone interested in Scientology: insist on the original Bridge as it existed prior to 1976, as it was before LRH left the church. (Someone with real talent in really good condition could, I guess, just study, and run the processes as laid out in the published LRH books, and end up OT, but that would be exceptional, I think.)
The biggest cost of that Bridge is Grades 0-IV, because those are audited Levels, an auditor auditing the PC one-on-one, in person. Those Grades might possibly run as long as a 500 hour range, depending on the case, but probably more usual is much less for someone in good condition. Do them thoroughly. Insist on full Grades. Then you have Power Processes, and about 95% of it after that is solo, so you pay C/S fees. Even at $150 an hour, paid professionally, you’re looking at the price of a new car, spread out over five to ten years if you do it diligently, 10 to 20 if you paw at it. So no one tell me an Escalade or other middle-high-end model is “outrageously unaffordable.” The co-audit / training alternative is much less, because you’re auditing Grades 0-IV with other students. You also pick up experience auditing.
The original Bridge was gutted and beheaded. Someone wanted it dead.
That would be L. Ron Hubbard. It was he who decided that one could go Clear on Dianetics, moved it after Grades, issued HCOB’s on no Dianetics after Clear and said people who had gone Clear on Dianetics were not to do R6EW or CC. He also developed NOTs and put it on the Grade Chart after OT DRD and then came out with Solo NOTs after that.
You seem to imply it’s a mystery how this happened — as if some unseen actors did it?
Do you not believe it was L. Ron Hubbard?
Hi Nickname, I just had to comment on your comment above. I was with LRH consistently from 1973 through 1980, he was absolutely running the church up until that point. In fact, in 1978 I was the FIRST Dianetic Clear declared, and I have my clear bracelet to prove it with an inscription saying just that. This of course, is another story. LRH is the one who C/S’ed my folders. Not sure where you got your data from.
Nickname – the general tone of your comment would be fine if I didn’t detect a hint of the Ron’s Org nonsense that “all tech after 1977 is invalid”. The tone of your comment is quite alluring to old timers but after reading it I cannot see one point that you state that rings true – for example EX DN was finally released after the time period you state. I get the idea that this is either a covert promotion of Ron’s Org “tech” or you have some other bee in your bonnet. Do you really believe that LRH would water down or corrupt his own tech when we all know that to do so is committing financial suicide, let alone the morality of such? NOTs changed everything post 1978 – live with it!
My Two Cents, excellent comment!
So what’s your solution Mike el con Wynski – make an effigy of El Con Hubbard and burn it daily?
Your nasty replies to those that have already suffered the humiliation of the Cof$ speaks volumes of support for those that wish to continue the misery the church instigated with their own “special way of hating.” Continually trying to convert the converted into your style of hate and single-mindedness is such a bore. Miscavige is an asshole in his own right, he sits at the head of the Cof$ and has to work with lawyers and vast amounts of money on a daily basis just to maintain it. He’s done that for 30 years or more while Hubbard is long gone, residual tech or no tech.
Pick another enemy, ex scios aren’t to blame for your misery!
Moronic posting I Yawn. I stated a fact. Why THAT would make ME responsible to solve is a question best left to psychiatrists who could study you are your overflowing insanity.
If I observe that those around the North Korean leader are also criminal for supporting him I am now responsible to solve North Korea?
You are reaching new levels of psychosis.
Blah blah, El Con Blah!
You play your trump card of personally insulting others far too soon if they don’t follow or agree with your think. You really are a bore!
I can go way past the psychosis you ramble on about. “Beserker” is the historical term. Norse warriors were very good at putting a handful aboard enemy ships, that’s all that were needed. That’s the way I would surrender to someone like you.
Your armor is non existent really, it’s the same old tools over and over.
Mike Rinder, why is it OK for Wynski to be so impolite with his ad hominems? Why don’t you ever comment that he should be more respectful of other people’s right to their own observations and beliefs? He could and should state his opinions and the reasoning behind them without continously insulting people, but he doesn’t. He goes way beyond just making people wrong. In my opinion, albeit based only on what he’s written on your blog, he’s a psychopathic troll, with the definition of “psychopath” being “someone who takes pleasure in inflicting pain on others.”
I have commented on this in the past.
So you know, I have trashed more of his comments than any other person on this blog. And I will say this — he has never once whined about that. Often, I have a lot of other things to do and do not have time to carefully read every comment. I miss things. But the beauty of it is if you don’t like what someone says, I generally let you respond and the readers make up their minds who they agree with.
I don’t think Wynski helps himself with personal attacks. He is abrasive at times. But if you don’t like what he says, ignore the comment. Ignore all his comments. Or respond. Or beat a pillow or take deep breaths. I am not here to protect anyone — I am not a den mother.
Well, then, it’s a good thing I’m not a Cub Scout.
A piece of advice Mike – attack the IDEA, NOT the PERSON.
Good advice
No, not every day. Let’s reserve one day of the year for that, like Anon’s beloved Guy Fawkes Day. I recommend March 13th. An effigy on a pile of Dianetics, set ablaze. It would be beautiful.
And as for Exes, they promulgated the cult’s Hubbardian cult of personality, his fraudulent science, and general homophobia while they were in. I want apologies for that, yes, from every one of them. Until then, I think it’s perfectly acceptable to regard them as enemies if they still promote any acceptable attitude toward the snaggle-toothed old fraud.
Miscavige is the symptom. Hubbard is the disease. You can treat the symptom or cure the disease once and for all. Choose.
Indeed. I have no argument with your opinion and if it helps – I am sorry for my part in forwarding the cult’s true aims while I drank the cool aid.
However, manners are manners. From behind a keyboard or face to face, should it make such a difference?
I am not protecting anyone that I feel is deserving of being made to face the consequences of their own actions. However, imo, observable evidence of insanity comes to the fore very quickly concerning who is to set the ground rules for what is acceptable for others to think, believe or practice? Laws are already in place for the most part on many things but are manipulated by the very criminals that need to be brought to justice. Scientology as an organisation needs to be eradicated. I do not align so much if we take the generalized view of all bad cults and practices and then following the principles you suggest. That leaves me facing the same old problem, time and time again, who’s to set the rules? Its been a long, long wait for the “sorry” from the persons and system that had a number of my colleagues killed on some godforsaken battlefield for literally nothing more than political tom foolery based on political & financial acquisition. Or the apology from those responsible for the GFC for the loss of so many private homes of people dear to us all. They are still is business, bigger and better at what they do than ever.
It’s a shitty hand Scientology plays, and those that keep playing it are the culprits. Who decides outside of that steel fisted organisation who is to be put to the sword? My comments indicate I’ll play too. I detest blanket think tho – it just gets darker and darker under there!
I don’t pretend to make the rules regarding what people believe or are allowed to believe. I do reserve the right to object when those beliefs impact me personally. Just to move away from Scientology, I don’t believe that you’d object to me going up to Shirley Phelps-Roper and using language that Donald Trump would find crude, not to mention using the word “fuck” in tenses that the English language has yet to define (we’re both ex-military, Yawn; you know that we have that capability). She deserves anything I can throw at her, up to and including sex toys. I’ve protested against Scientology and Westboro Baptist in the flesh, so I make little distinction between face-to-face or behind a keyboard.
Scientology and some Scientologists, even here, are worse than that harridan holier-than-thou lawyer. At least she ceases at my sexual orientation. Scientologists look down on me not only for that, but for the medications I use, and for my scientific education, because I learned things that contradict “holy scripture”. I do not think with a Scientologist’s mindset, and this is an opportunity for these people to look down their noses at me, since I haven’t taken the path to Total Freedom and Sanity. Let’s just say that I don’t respond well to people like that.
If there’s one thing that sets me off, it’s being patronized in that manner. In cases like that, I do have a tendency to pick up my terrible swift sword. Every pretense of civility goes out the window at that point. At the best of times, other people’s feelings are irrelevant to me. When I go into jihad mode, it’s not the best of times.
But thank you for the apology. I know it’s sincere because you’re a stand-up kind of guy.
Yeah, your sword is yours to pick up anytime you feel like it. If you loose or relinquish that freedom, all is lost.
Two aspects prior to Scientology weigh on my reflection of Scientology and the people affected by it. One is working in a Govt admin type office. Geezers, how you see what life coughs up with different people and viewpoints in a place like that! The other being the military. That fucked me up & I knew it, that’s why I got out but was really introverted. Heaven forbid, but auditing pulled me out of that crap, albeit, the Cof$ dumped me in another. But I’ve come to take it all in my stride and sort a lot out as far as I’m concerned. If I didn’t have family still drinking the kool aid I wouldn’t be posting here and would off elsewhere. It’s strange how it seems to make a difference being connected up with Mike Rinder’s blog. It’s a relative steady as she goes commentary on the horror generated by the Scientologist’s organisation.
Stand up type of guy hey? LOL. There are number of people who would severely disagree with you where I hail from. The internet is strange occurrence of a thing. You can craft almost personality on it if you can be bothered or have bent towards such things. There is one generality I see quite often in life, “seldom is anything as it seems.” People are generally like that once the social wears thin or money and sex is involved.
I do occasionally however, stand up for the rank and file, ie the little guy. I loath bankers, most politicians, assholes like Miscavige and really rude people (they muddy everything they get involved in). Some principles are worth it, hope you’re happy with yours. Carry on…
Ditto, Mike
Hey Lois, have your son tell who ever loaned him the money that he will be glad to pay it back in full. Have him mention that he has requested a refund in the whole amount given, and that the Org can pay it back directly to the person owed. Just a simple reversal of the original deal.
Lowie, I’m so sorry that you have a family member that’s still in. Thank goodness your other two sons are out. All of us here will be waiting for the good news that your son ditched the cult…forever!
Time has been very kind to Lois – she looks fabulous!
Is jealousy on the Tone Scale because that is where I am at right now…..
Thanks so much for sharing your story!!
Others on the site will differ with me but I say Middle Son owes the $60K and should pay it back since it’s to an individual, not an org. However, he needs to get on his feet first and get an income stream going and probably pay a lot of other bills first–like standard dental or medical care, getting his own place, getting a decent car, getting sufficient job training so he’s making good money. Once everything else is in order he can start sending checks to the wealthy Scieno and maybe include clippings about what a scam Scientology is within each payment envelope.
I respectfully disagree. My father lent money to Scientologists who never paid him back—and never will. I personally hold CoS responsible for stealing my father’s money. Indeed, it was the IAS registrars who pressured him into “lending” the money, and that money went directly to the IAS in the name of the lendees, from whom all my father ever got was a thank-you. (At least he got that much.)
Did those two actually owe the money to my father? A court of law would probably not think so. Similarly, in my opinion, the Church of Scientology stole the money on behalf of the Reisdorfs’ middle son. Therefore, if the people who are under the delusion that they lent this money really intend on getting it back, they should try getting it back from the Church.
Now, purely as a matter of personal integrity, the middle son may want to consider repaying the money at some point in the future. He could send a letter to his supposed creditors and say something like, “If I pay you this money you mistakenly believe I owe you, when in fact it is the Church of Scientology that owes you the money, then please understand that I will pay it back to you once you announce your separation from the church, or the church’s declares you. Only then will I know for sure that the money will not be used to aid this church which has done its damnedest to destroy my family.”
I am not so sure I agree. First, we have no idea if the kid was a minor when he agreed to this. Second, it doesn’t matter if it was an org or an individual, it is still way off policy, and probably not legal. Third, a lender is always aware there’s risk of not getting paid back. Fourth, if he was coerced into borrowing the money, and he defaults, the lenders should go after the church for a refund. After all, it was the church that set up this shady deal. I seriously doubt the kid found and asked the lender for the money. Fifth, did the lender do his/her due diligence and determine if the borrower was capable of repaying the debt? If the answer is no, then I refer you to the age old datum:
A fool and his money are soon parted.
Best,
Mimsey
A friend of mine , once upon a time , was working for a “whale”. Her job was to recover the money from various members . She hated it.
Now , the people who lend the money are supposed to be bright and business smart people. Yet they lend huge sums based on high hopes that the recipient will make it go right . Such contradiction! business savvy and illuminated idiots.
Scientology blinds even the smartest , no other way to put it.
1. If he was a minor, the contract is unenforceable, a minors cannot legally be held to contracts, it’s the law. 2. Since the money was paid directly to the church, I would argue that the church should pay it back. 3. The whole action was predatory; the “wealthy lender” is actually a party to defrauding this young man, by entering him into a debt he can not hope to repay; I have no sympathy for the lender. 4. There is the matter of a verbal promise for a loan not being legal without a written contract, as noted by another poster. 5. I’d advise this young man to declare all debts, credit cards, private loans, etc., on a bankruptcy action; the bankruptcy law was enacted to help honest debtors like him to get out from under the horrendous weight of debts they cannot possibly repay and to obtain a new start in life.
It is sickening how the Church of Scientology scams and pressures people out of money. They knew this young man had maxed out his credit cards and couldn’t afford to pay back a private loan. It’s not like he got anything substantial out of it like a car, a home, personal property, what does he have to show for this massive loan? It’s sad and infuriating.
I hope the youngest son is able to extricate himself from the Church, and best wishes to middle son… life will look up from here on, since you are no longer part of that organization.
Who’s actually got the money?
Due to the flaky nature of most scions finances (the ones I knew anyway) I was one of the few who could get loans and credit cards, hence I was the ‘go to guy’ for all the weird donations people were talked into making, generally the most I loaned was up to $1000, I lost out on several of these deals and never saw the money again, I learned quickly who could be trusted and simply refused any more money for the others. If it was me I would feel the person borrowing the money is responsible for paying it back, like I say though the loans I made were never going to bankrupt me, just a bit painful that they never got repaid. Anyone loaning $60,000 to someone clearly not qualified to repay it frankly deserves what they got, so very stupid.
It’s so sad! “Disconnection” is a policy straight from Hell. I can’t think of any other religions, past or present, that have such a policy. Including radical Islam. Here is an organization that has everything in place to do GOOD things but instead uses it’s power, money, and influence for evil. Most churches pass a basket around for contributions. Co$ makes you pass your wallet, house, bank accounts, credit cards, children, and even your very lives.
You can shear a sheep many times but you can skin him only ONCE. Smarten up and fly right COB!
Sadly, the practice of excommunication, coupled with an enforced ban on contact with expelled members, is not unique to $cn. The Amish and Fundamentalist LDS Churches excommunicate members for a variety of infractions and members are required to shun them or suffer sanctions themselves. Certain Islamic sects believe that the Quaran requires Muslims who leave the faith to be killed. So, $cn is hardly alone in its use of this heinous practice.
But for a group which holds self-determinism as one of its highest values, the cherch’s hypocrisy in dictating who parishioners can and can not have contact with is about as stunning as it can get. Even more hypocritical, whales and celebs, like TC, don’t have to abide by the same rules as the commoners and can consort with whomever they please, just like normal folks 😉
The Amish are kind of a different monster. I actually have/had Amish relatives who came from Germany around 1818. Who they are/were has been lost to time (and poor memories). As far as “shunning” goes I can tell you this:
Contrary to popular belief, Amish shunning does not end all social interaction, but it does involve rituals that remind the wayward of their sin and seek to bring them back into fellowship. Members who are excommunicated and shunned are avoided by active members in all social and business activities. However, the offenders are always welcomed back to the community if they repent.
Islam kills you outright. At the risk of sounding like a psychotic person myself, that almost sounds more humane than telling a mother that she can NEVER see, hear, touch, or smell her child again when that child is fully alive somewhere in the world. When our loved ones die, we go through hell but over time, most of us come to accept the fact that they are gone and we will never see them again. I cannot even begin to imagine the hell that people in and out of the Church go through on a daily basis due to being disconnected. Knowing myself, I don’t think I could handle that. It would consume me.
You are right on regarding the double standard for celebrities in the Church. Unfortunately, the Church has to perform a balancing act with them. If they push them too hard they will lose them. And I don’t think at this point in time the Church could afford that. So yeah, TC will always be COB’s favorite pet. Also, since the celebs do not live and work in the Church, it’s a little harder to control them. Maybe COB should lay off of the actors/actresses and go after business tycoons instead. What do you think?
It looks like they are already doing that (going after business people). If you look at the “whales” who donate millions for the next “status” they are all wealthy business people, many from other countries. Those are the people posing for photos with their families next to huge trophies with pretentious titles like Silver Humanitarian Meritorius or something similar, which is obtained by donating 2 million dollars. These days, it’s all about the money.
Yes, and that’s a downright shame. If I had 2 millions dollars to donate I think I would want a title that actually means something to the world. Like Nobel Laureate or Time Magazine Man of the Year. If you told someone you were a Silver Humanitarian Meritorius recipient in the CoS they would probably look puzzled and figure (correctly) that it has to do with $$$.
Horrible story Lois. Glad things are turning around for you.
Just a real quick story as a comparable fuck over. I had some friends who were in Scientology and whose son had blown the Sea Org with his wife. My friends helped the son pay off a 50k freeloader debt and get him back in good standing. These same friends were in the process of leaving Scientology but we’re under the radar. When the son (who they paid 50k for) found out they were essentially leaving Scientology decided to disconnect from THEM!!
Unreal what this cult gets people to do.
Actually, sadly, the total owed at time of disconnection was 170K (for both son and wife).
just when I think we have hit rock bottom on what scientology does to people, along comes something like this to plumb new depths.
Thanks Lowie for telling your story and standing up to terrorism of the worst sort. Your courage has benefits that have yet to materialize IMHO.
Being willing to stand up and call the cherch out on it’s foibles and criminality and to spread the truth is the only option we have. Life in the cult is horrible these days. It will get worse!
Yo Dave,
And so it continues good buddy. And it will continue to get worse for you too ……. count on it. I happen to derive a measure of pleasure playing the game of “truth or consequences” with you.
Wow. Eye opener! I once saw a promo piece where an ex boyfriend of mine donated a million dollars and I was shocked because he hadn’t won the lottery and was on staff so how did he do it? I wonder now if the poor guy is in debt like the son in this post. What a scam.
Crush regging has been going on since the early days. I was a flag reg for 7 yrs +- 1980 & the cycle would be crush regging or hard sell etc, a lot of broke & abused field, promotions for the “upstats”,later a couple of com-ev’s, one or 2 “heads on a pike” loud reform, then normal operation til the next real or imagined emergency then another stat push(2 or 3 Thursdays later), more crush regging, more auditing hrs used handling the PC’s charge on it on their $. More craming on the reges to get them “on purpose”. Send out a ARCX auditor to get the disaffected back on the hamster wheel & claim it’s a new management handling the off policy bs of earlier busted exec’s and reges. & repeat, repeat, repeat. It’s all about the $. There are individuals on staff who care but $cn policy is to repeat the above endlessly & RPF anyone who pushes back. Pay most staff 20 per week If their stats are normal or above, feed them shit & berth them with cockroaches.
It’s all about the $$$.
F**k them.
They are a SP Organization & deserve to disappear. Fast!!
Free At Last!
Right on the money!
Extremely well said!
You say crush regging has been going on since “the early days,” but then you cite your experience as a Sea Org reg around 1980, which was way after the actual early days. When I got into Scientology in the 1960’s there was no crush regging. It started when the Sea Org began interfering in local org management, specifically when the first FEBC’s came back to local orgs after being trained and getting their L’s on the ship. At our org a civil war then ensued between tech and admin, which admin won. Half of our good tech people left to work at missions or as field auditors.
Probably started with the “Battle Of Britton” which was yrs before I came aboard in 1975.
One of the more straight to point posts – nicely stated and as true as shot arrow.
Pressuring, tricking, lying and blackmailing people out of their money IS the business of Scientology. The whole organization is geared around it. It is what occupies the minds of every executive in every one of its “churches”. NO money paid by the public for services or direct donations goes directly into a bank account controlled by the local “church”. This includes the Sea Org “churches”. All monies get deposited into accounts controlled at the international level. The decision is made at the international level as to how much money, if any, is then trickled back to the lower level “church” that brought in the money. The lower level churches are kept on the brink of financial disaster and are constantly told their only solution is “TO MAKE MORE MONEY!”. This message is pushed down to the lowest level staff member and eventually down to the public until the whole place is fixated and nuts on the subject. Staff that joined to HELP others soon loose track of that purpose and find themselves fixated on how to extract MONEY from others.
When I was the Treasury Sec for the Flag Service Org I once asked one of the staff from the International Finance Office, “Why is it that no matter how many millions of dollars we bring in a week, we are given such a little amount back that our staff are forced to wear shirts and shoes with holes in them?” His answer was a quote from LRH. “Because an individual or organization will only make as much as it thinks it needs”. Billions of dollars sit at the top and Miscavige lives like he is Rockerfeller, literally. At the same time every ounce of energy, every penny possible, is squeezed out of the staff and public. When they have nothing left or voice an objection, they are quickly discarded, kind of like a heroin addict would do with a stolen credit card that no longer works.
Love reading all your posts Mat. My ex first wife used to be the FBO Flag, and as I came into her world, I became connected socially in a tiny way to the money lines and regging, and I was an Admin training course supervisor and saw the checksheets and progress the staffs on finance and treasury training learned, through their course essays and signing off on their checksheets and giving them checkouts.
Sometimes, back in the late 1970s, sending the regs to “retreads” was even done. I had David Foster on course for a couple years in his study time, and I even met my ex wife when she came to course and I course supervised her.
The behind the scenes pressures to follow LRH’s writings always, to me today, is relevant for what they are stuck in.
Crim regging is just institutionalized. I had Sonia even on a retread once, for a bad deal, which was forgiven.
But old people like Kerry Gleason, when he did the bad crim regging and AOSH EU collapsed after his Mission to save them and Kerry pulled out and came back to Flag and AOSH EU collapsed back, all related to pressure regging of some EU sugardaddy public.
Regging is just the bane of Scientology.
In this thread I’m also reminded that some of the old OEC original policies used to be from the staffs around the world who were successful back in the 1950s and 1960s, and in this thread today the Jory Mission’s atmosphere is mentioned, and that Jory Mission atmosphere reminds me of that old 1950s, early 1960s “pluspooint” policies in the OEC.
Scientology has been carried all along by decent people doing normal decent things as members, to each other, over top crim regging.
Hubbard’s voluminous writings just smother a person. There’s always too much of Hubbard’s writings that haven’t even all been studied by the vast majority of the members, so they have before them an endless amount of study to do, if they really wish to get up to even the old levels of staff education.
Kerry Gleason was a Class 12, OEC/FEBC, and was versed in almost all of LRH’s writings up to the time that Kerry fell out of Scienotlogy.
Kerry’s backviews of his long detailed Sea Org life would be interesting to hear.
Kerry was a master at getting money when needed, he was known to be able to do the big regging personally when needed.
Some Sea Org members were the full package.
Kerry was one.
Thank you. You probably remember what LRH wrote in BIG, BOLD letters in one of the policies.
“MAKE MONEY. MAKE MORE MONEY. MAKE OTHERS MAKE MORE MONEY.” Most (ex)staff members have chinese schooled this many, many, times.
In the 90’s I was on fundraising lines as an auditor/
cramming officer and was to CRAM EVERY FAILED
CLOSE!
By the way i experienced this hard sell/crush regging
as early as 1970 as a public Scientologist. The reg
did not bat an eye when he got my last thousand $
savings while being on course and supporting a family
of 4 (well, I did not bat much of an eyelid either
even though god knows I tried).
Mat,
That quote was so over the top, it was never a CLAY DEMO item, except on certain checksheets.
The FBO’s use of money like it was “coins” to invest back into the org to make MORE money was more the formula that the FBO Checksheets which were best written tried to convey to the FBO trainees.
The MAKE MONEY, MAKE MORE MONEY, MAKER OTHERS MAKE MORE MONEY” is from that one FBO Finance Office policy and yes, that was a prime datum for them.
I’ve wanted all those decades of staff checksheets to be someday released, as the checksheets give the emphasis on which of Hubbard’s pinpoint writings the staffs were to focus on.
The exact quotes from the exact most important Hubbard policy and tech issues that staff trainees Clay Demo’d, wrote Essays on and did Practicals or Drills on, one reason to study the checksheets even, for outsiders, is to see where the movement places its emphasis.
I used to scour the checksheets for the Drills, Practicals, Essays, Clay Demos and Demos to see what the current “trend” from top management always was.
Trying to out think how top bosses wished Hubbard’s writings to be followed, since there frankly are tons of comments which cannot be taken seriously, some incite violence and mayhem and would be illegal to implement if taken seriously.
Hubbard’s Treasury OEC Volume 3 and the Finance Series Policy letters are pretty straightforward and aren’t figurative.
Hubbard said always make more than you spend, and that you won’t have money unless you make it, and be sure to have multiple income sources and enough coming in from the various income sources to carry the whole.
FSO is such a major income source, but IAS carries PAC’s maintenance bills I believe today.
IAS straight donations I see, frankly as a necessity, a naturally evolved necessity, if you think about it.
There will be no MORE levels coming out in enough frequent quantity to be an income source to keep the Sea Org facilities afloat, so that means the richer Scientologists need to foot the bill, and IAS donations accumulating and causing them increasingly raised IAS status labels for themselves, is the way to keep the rich Scientologists footing the bills for all the buildings, especially as the FSO VSD income was predictably just NOT being enough to run all of FLB and the Int orgs maintenance.
PAC I think was frankly stunted in growth until IAS WUS funding was established to take care of the building maintenance bills in PAC’s complex.
Hubbard’s over the top policies like the make more money and make others make money, etc, is not the problem though.
Even one of the harshed 1990s era critics, Keith Henson suggested smartly they need to downsize their manning of their orgs, to cut expenses.
On that line, what I thought, was that the old pattern of having volunteer staff on short contracts like was allowed, so the Sea Org orgs in PAC, for instance hired up some Class 6s and Class 8 field auditors for peak delivery, is an obvious good way.
There’s no management of their personnel that I can see like even the older times when LRH was easing off the lines, and even worse than when LRH was overseeing the org eval and managing from above.
But, bottom line, if Scientology doesn’t make super souled people, then that’s the biggest problem they cannot dodge no matter how dizzying clever their management is.
They can’t dodge the blowback that eventually comes because LRH’s whole intricately built up framework simply cannot humanly produce, which is “OT” people.
Producing “OT” people her definitions of “OT” of a soul that can operate with or without a body, that’s simply unproducable.
Official Scientology could un-suppress its operation though and make it more fun to be playing along, and giddy with the hopeful excitement of it all, while they all fake “OT” production.
I wonder if there is an LRH Comm network still functioning?
Chuck – it’s ‘beans’ not ‘coins’ LOL
I doubt there is an LRH Comm network. The RTC reps likely comm-eved them all to the RPF. Just look how bad the spelling is in the promo.
Thanks for telling your story Lois. SOP in Scientology and those old timers are “delusion determined”.
They cannot think for themselves and have been traumatized beyond belief.
Do some research on Complex Trauma
That is if you “can have” information from “THE PSYCH’S”…
most Ex Scientolgists are in a state of total confusion when they leave and are convinced A=A=A on the subject of Psychology and Psychiatry and “can’t have” any other help – which causes the mental breakdowns.
YOU CAN HAVE HELP – you just have to be willing TO LOOK!
Some LRH cognitive dissonance to get your weekend off to a good start:
1. They (the psychs) destroyed every great civilization to date and are hard at work on this one
2. Generalities Won’t Do
Wow Lowie, that really sucks. I hope middle son eventually sees the light and realizes his family is infinitely more valuable than this business scam masquerading as a church. It’s amazing (well maybe not) how many previously dedicated people have defected from the toxic tyranny of the tiny dwarf. Just as Robert De Niro wanted to punch Donald Trump in the face, I want to do the same to the COB. Okay, I’m through venting. I feel better.
Crim regging, same principle.
They don’t even know they used to condemn their own crim regging back in the day. And sometimes regs were RPFed or busted, it came up on their Comm Evs or they did decks at least.
The crim regging is decades out of control and the culture inside Scientology has completely changed to make it normal and accepted.
Richard Behar was more correct than he knew.
It’s like Scientology doubled down on crim regging instead of eliminating that irreligious behavior.
Hi Lois, howzit from South Africa. I never knew you but I certainly knew three of your sisters and your brother at the Jory Mission (today called the Norwood Mission). The Jory Mission was the very best place to get into scn, if that’s something one had to do. A very high proportion of the most dedicated scientologists entered through the Jory’s though, sadly from what I hear, sister Louveinge is today one of the most die-hard Kool Aid drinkers around. But the Jory Mission certainly was a fun place in the l;ate 80s and early 90s (and well after according to others) with absolutely no pressure and no focus on money. I used to hear mention of you, but of course you were long gone to the Freewinds.
Your story is fairly typical though no less heartbreaking. My own son recently disconnected (never so much as bothered to mention it to his mother or sisters) but told me if I insisted on making life so difficult for him (by thinking for myself) he would be forced to never speak to me again. Personally, I don’t give a shit any more, but do find it incredibly wrong for him to disconnect from his sisters who really have never been either in or out. Like you, I kept some distance between them and the org). I say I don’t give a shit, not necessarily to be mean, but I have recognised the incredible selfishness of his act. He is not stupid, and is doing this for one reason only – not to impede his progress up the bridge. It might cost him a little more in intensives having to handle his ‘DB family’. So I don’t lose any sleep on family members who disconnect from me (and there are quite a few).
“I just don’t get how the most die-hard Scion’s and especially “old timers” can think that this is okay.”
That is answered simply. They have been conditioned by the destructive “tek” of El Con over the years and as part of that they CANNOT think logically. You can see it often on posts here where the true believers post stuff like the US gov controls scamology and it is part of an interstellar plot. That type of complete insanity. Brought to you by the “tek”.
Once you reach a point where you believe Scn is THE most important thing in the UNIVERSE…well, you can get the person to do almost ANYTHING. Turn over their life savings, turn over their children, infiltrate government agencies, commit perjury, lying to the public…the whole litany of criminal behavior.
I speak from experience, I was in that mental state for years. Though I’ve never done anything illegal for the church, I did them a shitload of money and, at one stage, would have given my life.
Rational? Of course not. But, there was no way you could convince me otherwise.
Yes this is sadly true. When you compare any sum of money, any familial relationship or any earthly or humanly emotion or ethical situation, Scientology will ALWAYS BE the bigger cause for scientology sheeple. Hard to admit sometimes because I wish it were different. But in this mindset there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING more important than the CoS.
Quite true statpush. I ran into a person who got in ~1951 in L.A. and did up through Clearing Course in ’66 in England and got out when he realized exactly THAT was his scam and that the whole “tek” was a con run by a criminal. No one he knew was getting the gains purported even back then.
They can’t get product auditing and training, so they upgrade the building. That looks like production, but it is not their business, not their primary product and reason for being. A building – by itself – doesn’t do anything but sit there. It deteriorates gradually over time, and you can take depreciation write-offs on it, and so on, but it isn’t doing anything, by itself, it has no product value if it isn’t used by people for some production function.
The symbol becomes the thing, is LRH’s definition of insanity: “… the person widely believes that the symbols are the thing.” (Tech Dictionary.) The symbol of the building becomes the product, to them. That isn’t Scientology, it is the real estate or building construction business, and to the truly discerning eye, those two are not the same.
The original L.A. Org was in some rented apartment building, not a swanky place at all, but they had the product of auditing and they studied and talked and conversed and learned to audit, so they had the sanity and production thing lined up: auditing and training were the primary things, the learning and function; and anyplace that was good enough, was secondary. You do the product first, then you get the building. Apple was started in a garage, I hear, and not in the billion dollar office complex (or whatever it cost).
Could go on … you need some kind of symbol for identification, every product by a group or company gets a label of some sort slapped on it, and that’s a symbol, I guess. But that’s the secondary thing, “Made by XYZ Company”. But the product is the primary importance, so if Intel, for example, somehow dropped their quality control and started churning out defective chips, “Boom!” there went the company. They don’t let that happen because they recognize that the chip is their product, and the “Intel Inside” is just a label to let people know who made it, and it’s a company-backed guarantee of superior quality.
“The Emperor has no clothes” could be rewritten to something more like “The Emperor has no product.”
“….the symbols are the thing…..”
Reminds me today, one HAS to do some adult education to compare back to LRH’s ideas, to put things LRH claimed to at least context of thinkers who are recognized as greater thinkers.
Ludwig Wittgenstein in particular, here’s 10 or less minutes, great little summary of Wittgenstein.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ33gAyhg2c
Fantastic video, Chuck!
Thanks for that.
Alanzo
To understand the product of Scientology – you have to go all the way down the rabbit hole and understand L Ron Hubbard.
He was a criminal con artist….a nut bag.
Scientology is getting the product L Ron Hubbard set it up to get – MONEY and power over the sheeple.
It has amassed BILLIONS of dollars out of very few people and it uses mind control and brainwashing techniques along with Hypnosis.
It is an evil cult that destroys everyone in its path and it destroyed L Ron Hubbard and has destroyed David Miscavige. Miscavige is alive but believe me – he is suffering beyond belief. He is a monster.
Wognited, when did you get into Scientology? Before the Sea Org started in 1967 things were much different in Scientology. Ron did hype his results, but the later abuses weren’t happening. People were getting good results most of the time.
I will second that. Before the Sea Org things were very different. Low stress. Enthusiasm for learning the tech and drilling and looking forward to the next lecture. Calling Ron RON to his face. Busy exciting times. I believe the Sea Org heralded the decline of the whole thing. Even that started out fun. But after a while the pain started to exceed the pleasure.
“Before the Sea Org things were very different.”
Even in the early years of the SO, things were different. I remember listening to some admin tapes where the high-ranking Aides in a meeting with Ron were calling him “Ron,” and all of them seemed natural and perfectly comfortable around him. The Aides were part of the SO, obviously, so I got that the SO was very different in the beginning when Ron was running things directly.
I remember a comment Dan Koon posted one time, where he basically said the same thing – that working under Ron, the SO was a happy place to be. Also, Marty Rathbun, in his book “Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior,” described what it was like to be a young staff member who had been transferred to World Headquarters (WHQ), where Ron was located:
“When we finally arrived at WHQ, it seemed as though I really had arrived ‘over the rainbow.’ The place had a spiritual air about it, perceptible from the moment we drove onto the property. The staff were friendly, but not in a syrupy, cultish way. They were very much engaged and worked long hours, but at meals and during the course of the work day, their communication level was very high – infectiously so . . . ”
I marveled at those tapes of the meeting with Ron and his Aides, which I heard when I was a fairly new SO member at Flag Bureau in the early ’90s. By then, the exec meetings there were so oppressive that I was actually embarrassed by them for “my church”! But I was new to it all and figured this would “get handled” as it wasn’t Scientology – which it wasn’t. More than a decade later, however, things had only gotten worse, even in the service org that I later worked in. It took me two years, after coming to the conclusion that I wasn’t winning in that group, the SO, to make a firm decision to leave and nobody could talk me out of it.
How to get Scientologists out of their mental prisons and comparing actual outside recognized thinkers.
The 5-10 minute excellently scripted School of Life talks on dozens of the great minds in human history give opportunity to simply compare ideas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0zmfNx7OM4
Thanks for the link. Interesting, thought provoking channel.
Just a little note about kids and $cientology: Lets say you have a kid in college, and you’ve been sending him $200 a month to help out, and you find out he’s interested in $cn. STOP SENDING the $200! Instead, send $50 a week. Do not increase, no matter what. The small amounts will be less interesting to reggies. And spending $50 on a comm course will mean going without food for a week. Any time he asks “do you hate $cn?”, tell him you don’t know anything about it, and Google it. After months of torture from the reggies, and friends saying, “Oh CRAP, are you involved with $cientology!? he will see the light. SNOOURT!
MUs. Blowing from college into the simplicity of Hubbard’s Scientology world which has “solutions” and others who are similarly escaping from real life into the “solution” world of Hubbard’s creation.
I’d admit to taking that course in life, when I dropped out of college to join into the 1975 world of Scientology, even.
“…he was told that his donations towards this hall would “help” with our comm-ev.” That’s called extortion.
+1! Right on the money!
It’s called “tithing” in the Catholic Church. It sounds less ominous I guess. LOL
Tithing isn’t mandatory in the Catholic Church. And it certainly isn’t used for blackmail. It is voluntary and does not affect your standing in the church.
Unlike a cult we all know…..
Tithing is optional. Nothing happens if you don’t give money to a Catholic Church.
No one calls you to ask for money
No one shows up at your door at any hour of the day to ask for money
No one threatens your family members with ex-communication if you don’t donate
No one asks you to max out credit cards to ‘donate’
No one asks you to ‘borrow’ money from wealthy parishioners in order to donate
So, yeah, tithing is a little different
Exactly: tithing is voluntarily giving a portion of your income (10% or whatever) but it’s not mandatory, and it’s waved for those who can’t afford it, and for those who are so poor that they are actually in need, there are programs to help them and provide them with food, clothing, shelter, etc. We don’t see this happen in the Church of Scientology.
Thanks for your article Jory.I hope you write more often.Seems the cult is going ever more criminal as it sees itself shrinking into obivion.There is no comparison to Isis who just killed their236 human shields in Mosul.None whatsoever.
The fundraising in the CoS is in fact a form of spiritual extortion and enforcement of other determinism which is actually completely opposed to the basic books of Scientology (though later LRH became an enforcer himself)
The only donaters who do not have to be extorted are people like Nancy and Duggan who have tons of money and absolutely crave the status they think that their donations confer on themselves.
Yea. Used to be you invested in yourself, case progress, which was expected of everyone.
I mean why even do the subject, if one isn’t going to avail oneself of the auditing to reach the highest spiritual levels of the Bridge?
Money for buildings, I guess is a more 3rd dynamic contribution, than money to get oneself fully trained as a Class 8, be able to competently deliver the auditing/training/case-supervising.
I mean to me today, my views are Scientologists were/are those that get trained and can do Class 8 level competence at Scientology, and then they are not even up to Class 12 yet, nor OEC/FEBC management level educated in their subject.
Hubbard left a whole massive amount of training for them, and auditing to progress and receive on their own first dynamic cases.
It’s just a long runway to get to being a top Scientologist, they’ve been waylaid into all sorts of irreligious side paths, not even doing the full Hubbard legacy for themselves.
Really sad overwhelming amount of details to criticize official Scientology for measuring up to LRH’s full writings.
And really sad is there is so little overview intelligently by those names I throw out in my postings, of those that did get up to whole package training and auditing.
Public Scientologists sometimes are ex Sea Org, but they have that permanent condemnatory “DB” label for having quit the Sea Org and having abandoned their dedication as Sea Org members to LRH’s legacy.
There are so many angles at grading the Scientologists at their own Hubbard legacy gradations.
And it’s frustrating how difficult it is to even bring up the actual details of Hubbard’s legacy in Hubbard’s language he left for them in Hubbard’s voluminous writings.
Today’s Scientology does not match what Hubbard wrote.
(Let alone, I know you Joe have criticized me for dismissing all of Hubbard’s stuff, and I do, but I am more than willing to go into the most detailed details of what Hubbard wrote with those that have suffered into the really deep depths of what all Hubbard’s legacy writings to the end of Hubbard’s life go—the details of what Hubbard wrote will outlive those today who are doing partial application of the Hubbard full legacy is why and I at least was a part of the movement and saw so many many more of the details of Hubbard’s writings and those people who back in the day did get way higher up into the ranks of following all those writings in FULL breadth—but again did it all matter, I wish people like Kerry Gleason would pipe up and answer some big overall views of it all.)
Most interesting. Well done on hanging on to two out of three. Having the other one lost (at least for the moment) must really be an emotional grind to you and hubby. I suggest #2 actually declare bankruptcy – if not done already. Not knowing “where” you are, I don’t know the rules. Normally, once that declaration has been made public, lenders, credit card companies, etc. are enjoined from bothering him…or you. In any case, the best of luck to you on this. My beloved lady tells me she knew you well on the ship and has nothing but good to say about you.
Something I worry about too …
My (step) grandson and granddaughter … now very young … but …
May your middle son recover fully from his breakdown. He’ll be stronger and wiser …
Ask Mike for my email address. I’m happy to offer help in this area. I know it very well. And have helped others recover. (without drugs)
Love,
Windhorse
Addendum: I’m not opposed to psych drugs – and definitely feel they have their worth. Just not as a long term solution as they have other side effects etc …
WH
This loaning of money operation has been going on for decades. Before building donations, it was for services. I’m sure everyone has a story to tell, probably more than one. What they fail to realize is that it is an “unusual solution”. You are trying to “purchase” something outside your means, and outside the conventional finance lines (e.g. banks, credit cards). Yet, parishioners seem to check their brain at the door when entering these types of agreements.
Please, please, please, do not allow middle son to pay ANYTHING back. No one is going to sue him. No one, especially the church, wants this to go anywhere near a court room. Also, by not re-paying, maybe it will serve as a jolt to the lender and lead to their departure.
After I got declared I got stiffed for over $70,000 by the church and other Scnists. By your son NOT paying them, I feel a small amount of payback 🙂
Please don’t be a stranger Lois. Looking forward to more articles from you.
Agreed, don’t pay back a f’ing dime. Have him push back so he gets declared or at the very least, change his cell phone number. There is a statue of limitations when it comes to collecting debts. Know what it is for your state and use it to your advantage. He’s probably feeling like he’s stuck to a railroad track with a train barrelling down on him. I get it. Been there. But he will soon learn the great and powerful oz is not so great, not so powerful, and there are worse situations he can get himself into, and worse organizations to get mixed up in. He’ll grow and learn from this experience and be a better and wiser person because of it.
Correct statpush. Off policy loans have been part of scamology SOP for at LEAST 45 years. I saw it also for “liability” projects of public.
Lois, it is criminal. Most of what goes on in Church of Scientology is criminal, and more people than were originally suspected in the church have criminal and hidden criminal backgrounds greater than the public that is coming in for help. This is a daily overt and was MY reason for leaving. Their activities do not match LRH’s description of their jobs and duties. If you cannot get Dianetics and Scientology in a Church of Scientology, is there any crime in leaving? Most people get confused on that subject. Thank goodness you are not one them. 🙂
Lois,
Thanks for speaking out. Looking forward to more installations of your story.
I am saddened by the many good people who have been exploited by this criminal organization.
Sorry about your youngest son. That too will change. And you are helping.
Hey Lois..Nice to see you, you look almost exactly the same as when I knew you on the Apollo .. I am still sort of lurking.. although probably really don’t need to. But you know me and one of these days I will use my real name. Sorry about lost son, glad middle son was saved. You look awesome.