I’ve seen moths circling a candle and wondered at what their goal must be. Same sort of thing with a Scio and their TV I suppose. Either was it’s toast.
I’m calling BS on the CO$ stance that they have brought peace to Colombia. My family is Colombian, I used to work there, and I have plenty of family in Bogota. BS that the violence is gone. Yes, there is LESS violence than fifteen years ago, but this is due to the gov’t’s negotiations with FARC, not any WTH disseminations. Frankly, Colombia is still plenty dangerous. My wealthy friends are still paying “protection” money to FARC, still have to ride in bullet-proof cars, and I still can’t speak loudly in public b/c of my gringo accent. What a damn lie that Scientology has cured Colombia of any ills.
Thank u Mike Rinder, I am new to your blog but look forward to it now. I’ve watched your shows about “disconnection”, sadly, but nvr really thought about it till now, could it be true that Tom Cruise disconnected from his daughter Suri?, that is so very sad if true, he has to b such a smart man and to b caught up in this so much not to see his Daughter ?, I was also sad to hear that his 2 children with Nicole are scientologists. Both wives very smart to get away from him and the cult. But again sad that Nicole probably has also been disconnected from those Children. This is all surreal to me, how a persons mind can be so overpowered. Keep up the great work u and Leah.
REGRADED BEING, always a pleasure to read, laugh, and sometimes feel sad for the poor saps still living in that creepy fantasyland of scientology.
Hey scientologists, your COB is a gangster that thinks you are all failures. Oh, and refering to all non-scientologists as Wogs is extremely distasteful and the public is repelled by, not attracted to, your gaudy Orgs.
The worst part is how endlessly BORING scientology TV is. Anything interesting or stimulating or informative has been surgically removed, and regurgitated into some bland 1950s zombie simulacrum of respectability.
I don’t get this with my service, but from the way I’ve heard it described, it reminds me of John Sweeneys description of the anti psych films Tommy Davis showed him.
This is scarily accurate. And what’s scary is I can remember feeling this way myself once upon a time, 23 or more years ago… They believe it because they so want to believe it. They feel so misunderstood by the world so they want people to see ‘the truth’ about them. What better way to ‘show the world’ than through a tv channel? It’s so sad that people are still being led down this path of illusion. That’s why what’s happening now to expose the real truth is so so important!
Ah,,,WOGs comm-lag.:-) That explains it!
And Grade Zero release–Now I understand why there are Millions of Sci-sts and why Columbia soon is Clear and everything;-)
So spot on!!
I think it’s time for Dave to look into picking up one of those Cunard Lines boats to handle the influx of fresh raw meat pouring into the worlds fastest growing Cult.
I just want to thank you Mike Rinder for doing these blogs, I know Leah brought out this sickness called Scientology to the forefront but Mike does all the social media to keep people informed about what is the truth and what is a lie so THANK YOU for all your hard work!!
To be accurate, Mike Rinder, our host, was blogging and using social media to get the word out about Scientology long before Leah brought the TV audience.
But having said that , welcome to all of you that have come here after Aftermath aired.
Making a cultural observation, but the Great Wall of Scientology is much like what the internet is doing to general society as well as Fake News. Scientologists were the first to create an isolated cultural group amongst the general society, but the internet is doing that too to the rest of us. In other words, there is no common culture as the world globalizes, just a bunch of splinter groups. For example, look at the decline of NFL viewers.
Scientology TV is an example of this cultural shift where we are so divided, we don’t look over the other guy’s fence. Fake News is similar to what Scientologists call entheta. It is data not considered positive, so it is given a negative label. So in the words of the current paradigm, Scientology TV is Fake News.
Another definition for ” Fake News” nowadays is any news that someone doesn’t like, doesn’t want to hear or read, etc. Leaving aside whether or not its accurate and true, its data that is unwanted or inconvenient and therefore quite automatically a lie…fake news.
Scientology has been doing this for a really long time, only their term for fake news is “entheta”.
Going back in history, when religions were aligned with governments, when there was no separation between the two and church and state were one, anything the church didn’t like about itself was fake news too, only it was called “heresy”. punishable by torture, imprisonment and/or death.
Also in those times, when or heaven forbid if someone criticized the king or the queen it was also automatically fake news and their term for it was “treason” with the offender at risk to suffer the same consequences.
There are people today who fervently believe that if they don’t hear it on Fox News or read it on Breitbart or hear it from say Rush Limbaugh or some other rightwinger on radio, that its automatically not true, (fake news) and the same holds true for the other side of the political coin with .CNN, Wapo, and whomever their go to leftwinger pundit is.
It would appear that nowadays the veracity of lack thereof as regards any datum depends a great deal not on whether the facts check out or not but merely on who is stating it.
Back in the day, if the king said it was true it HAD to be true, and vice versa. If the church said it was true, good luck if you said it wasn’t! Veracity of a datum entirely dependent upon source.
One of the key reasons Scientology is failing miserably is due to this kind of “thinking” that’s been going on since the 50s. At worst its dangerous and life threatening and at best it just doesn’t work and turns people off.
Tonight on the Oxygen channel “Mysteries and Scandals” show, there will be a show about three Scn actors who had disastrous outcomes after doing Scn counseling and training. One will be about Johnny Lewis, the rising star Scn actor who bludgeoned his landlord to death and killed her cat too and then jumped off or fell off her roof to his death. And there are two other actors the show will go over too. The church has tried to downplay Johnny Lewis’ participation in the church by saying he was not a member when he went whonky. But not only was he a member but he had attained the state of Clear and was a Class IV auditor and audited others. Although I am so sorry for what Michael and Divona Lewis have had to go through with the death of their son, but on the other hand, this story needs to be told in the ongoing shining of the light of the church’s deeds. Tune in to Oxygen’s Mystery and Scandals today, Fri to see the Johnny Lewis and other actors’ story
To update this post of mine, I found out it is featuring only 1 Scn and the other two actors are not Scns. It airs tonight at 9:00 on Oxygen’s Mysteries and Scandals.
The one Scn child actor who made it big and then went splewie is Johnny Lewis. He was a gung ho active Scn for many years and then, his mom, Divona, told me that he started reading “entheta on the internet” about Scn and decided he was not going to pursue the OT Levels then. Per the show which more or less quoted his dad, Michael, he said Johnny wanted to leave Scn and he didn’t do anything to stop him. So here is a huge observation:
Johnny read bad stuff about Scn on the internet and then wanted to leave the religion. Why did his parents and siblings never have to disconnect from him? They never disconnected from him and they are all in good standing with the church even to this day. Why the double standard? Others have been declared just for reading the blogs. And because of their SP Declare, their family had to disconnect from the person. Why didn’t Johnny and his family go through disconnection like thousands of other Scn families have gone through per the rules of Scn?
The answer is simple: Johnny and his family were whales in Scn. They had money and donated lots of it to the IAS and the Idle Morgues and to buy their own Bridges. The Lewises amassed their money through their jobs (she is a Power FSM and he has a field practice), through a huge inheritance from Michael’s dad, and through inheriting Johnny’s residual income from his acting career. Scientology doesn’t make the whales disconnect for the same actions that they make others disconnect. The reason is that the money would then dry up. Other examples: Tom Cruise never had to disconnect from Katie after she left, and the Duggans never had to disconnect when the husband left. And I”m sure other readers here can supply their own list of double standards with the church. It’s not fair that the rich whales don’t have to abide by the same insane rules that the others do. RIP, Johnny.
Cindy – exactly, double standards. The whales/celebrities never have to abide by the rules of us mere mortals. What drove me nuts when in was when Tom Cruise was married to Nicole and both were going up the bridge and they never had to disconnect from her parents (one or both) that are psychologists. You know damn well we wouldn’t be allowed up the bridge. Such BS, all of it.
RB,
You depict so accurately the insanity that exists within the cult. It’s like Nero playing his fiddle while Rome burned. I’m glad there will be a season 3 of Aftermath.
Scientology is becoming more and more toxic. It needs more exposure as it continues to exploit people and defraud them.
Exactly BKmole, “Scientology needs more exposure as it continues to exploit people and defraud them.” So true. Regraded Being really hit the nail on the head with this one. This is how brainwashed the still in really are. But I used to be like that sadly. I remember being leaned on to donate and the whole pitch was that they’d cleared up the drug cartel in Columbia, so we need to get more “Way to Happiness” booklets out to Columbia fast to continue the fantastic wins we were having cleaning up the drug situation. Ha! what a crock and lie that was. Columbia is just as bad now as it ever was regarding the drug scene and the warring cartels. But I believed and gave more money because of that lie. I hang my head in shame.
No need to be ashamed because you wanted to help Cindy. That will always be a valuable trait.
These days I kind of favor the old ‘never fear to hurt another for a just cause’ drivel which was uttered by our favorite con artist and emulated by His protege. Translated …. it works out to be something like ‘don’t worry about criticizing a cult if it will help others avoid the scam’!
Yo Eff Pee,
Come on out and play today …… if Dave will give you permission. We missed you yesterday but I realize you needed to get yer stats up and didn’t have any extra time.
Yo Dave,
Howz the inundation of yer mORGues going now that your SuMP is out in public?
To: Newcomer
From: David Miscavige COB RTC
Re: my new network
When my new SuMP, I mean, SMP, really gets going, you will see millions of people flood my idle, I mean, ideal orgs! But if I see you in any one of these orgs, I will route your sorry ass to Gold Base for special processing of my choosing!
SPs are not allowed in my orgs!
So, there!
Oh Cindy, YOU didn’t do anything wrong, or maybe it was the wrong thing for the right reason. It was because you believed what you were told by people who sure didn’t deserve your loyalty.
This is what makes me so sad and angry at this cult. They exploited (and continue to) really good people. The shame is on them Cindy.
Yes Peggy and Newcomer, the shame is on the C of $ for lying so blatantly to good people who just wanted to help. That help urge was betrayed as the money just went into Davey’s coffers with no way to trace it.
LOL, yes, Jim! That “Look, don’t listen” advice leaped out at me!
RB, I love the dry humor you insert here and there.
This cleaning lady line hit a nail on the head because I have a cleaning lady whose respect I value a lot. Perceptive, kind, sensible and sharp as a tack, if she had not been born into a poor family of 12 in Venezuela, and had had the benefit of an education she’d be running a major corporation instead of cleaning homes and offices.
Tech comment: For the very first time, I’m unable to double click on each panel and have it enlarge. And at my age, I need all the help I can get visually! But I struggled through and that husband gets more and more dense. Great job, RB!
Peter Norton, you should really look into scientology. Your poor eyesight is because of an engram that is causing your reactive mind to create poor eyesight. Auditing should clear that up in no time.
Yep, ole’ LRH even cured the common cold. Scientolgists NEVER get sick.
Yea. I think you’ve been eavesdropping, RB. I heard the flock are super excited about their TV station. Finally, people are going to understand what scientology is all about and they even got a gander of its great leader (and his big heart). If they don’t, well, then the wog world SCOHB.
Yo Dave,
Will they come ……… or will they go? How You gonna fix it this time Dr. Dingleberry?
Hint: Find out who’s fault it is and set the matter straight as only You can do Dave.
Then You can do a reality piece on Danny Masterson; show the world how $cientology Ethics can be applied by a cult member to make amends and turn their life around. It would increase yer ratings good buddy!
Mary, I LOVED your interview with Aaron. You described the early days to a T, these were the reasons we silly baby boomers got in and hooked. Then you described the middle to the end perfectly. You were great and Aaron is a great interviewer. For anyone who hasn’t listened yet please do, especially the never-ins, you will acquire great insight from Mary. So thanks for this great interview.
I’ve seen moths circling a candle and wondered at what their goal must be. Same sort of thing with a Scio and their TV I suppose. Either was it’s toast.
I’m calling BS on the CO$ stance that they have brought peace to Colombia. My family is Colombian, I used to work there, and I have plenty of family in Bogota. BS that the violence is gone. Yes, there is LESS violence than fifteen years ago, but this is due to the gov’t’s negotiations with FARC, not any WTH disseminations. Frankly, Colombia is still plenty dangerous. My wealthy friends are still paying “protection” money to FARC, still have to ride in bullet-proof cars, and I still can’t speak loudly in public b/c of my gringo accent. What a damn lie that Scientology has cured Colombia of any ills.
Thank u Mike Rinder, I am new to your blog but look forward to it now. I’ve watched your shows about “disconnection”, sadly, but nvr really thought about it till now, could it be true that Tom Cruise disconnected from his daughter Suri?, that is so very sad if true, he has to b such a smart man and to b caught up in this so much not to see his Daughter ?, I was also sad to hear that his 2 children with Nicole are scientologists. Both wives very smart to get away from him and the cult. But again sad that Nicole probably has also been disconnected from those Children. This is all surreal to me, how a persons mind can be so overpowered. Keep up the great work u and Leah.
REGRADED BEING, always a pleasure to read, laugh, and sometimes feel sad for the poor saps still living in that creepy fantasyland of scientology.
Hey scientologists, your COB is a gangster that thinks you are all failures. Oh, and refering to all non-scientologists as Wogs is extremely distasteful and the public is repelled by, not attracted to, your gaudy Orgs.
How were the Thursday stats? Where’s Shelley?
I was looking for that word to describe the new orgs: Gaudy.
The worst part is how endlessly BORING scientology TV is. Anything interesting or stimulating or informative has been surgically removed, and regurgitated into some bland 1950s zombie simulacrum of respectability.
I don’t get this with my service, but from the way I’ve heard it described, it reminds me of John Sweeneys description of the anti psych films Tommy Davis showed him.
Torturous, repetitive, somnolent.
They need more interesting content, like the LAPD busting Danny Masterson.
This is scarily accurate. And what’s scary is I can remember feeling this way myself once upon a time, 23 or more years ago… They believe it because they so want to believe it. They feel so misunderstood by the world so they want people to see ‘the truth’ about them. What better way to ‘show the world’ than through a tv channel? It’s so sad that people are still being led down this path of illusion. That’s why what’s happening now to expose the real truth is so so important!
Mike,
Is it apropo for us to start a wish list of topics for some Aftermath episodes in season 3, 4, 5,…?
Danny masterfulsome for one
The Garcias’ rape at their ethics hearing
Video demonstrations of how the Grades and Abilities gained by Scientologists are shown NOT to work in the WOG world
What WISE, ABLE, Narco-whatever are really up to.
The money flows and where it disappears to
How the 1st Amendment and Courts are ‘gamed’ by Scientology (and other cults)
What can go wrong when fundamentalists of churches and cults ignore the laws and moral codes of society
Ah,,,WOGs comm-lag.:-) That explains it!
And Grade Zero release–Now I understand why there are Millions of Sci-sts and why Columbia soon is Clear and everything;-)
So spot on!!
I think it’s time for Dave to look into picking up one of those Cunard Lines boats to handle the influx of fresh raw meat pouring into the worlds fastest growing Cult.
Oh, no doubt! Maybe two Cunard boats. I mean, Scientology is growing by leaps and bounds. You can’t even get near to Big Blue now.
He’d have to have a new one built by an all-Scientologist team. Otherwise, there would be too much entheta hidden in the design.
Leigh,
You mean, one with blue asbestos?
I just want to thank you Mike Rinder for doing these blogs, I know Leah brought out this sickness called Scientology to the forefront but Mike does all the social media to keep people informed about what is the truth and what is a lie so THANK YOU for all your hard work!!
To be accurate, Mike Rinder, our host, was blogging and using social media to get the word out about Scientology long before Leah brought the TV audience.
But having said that , welcome to all of you that have come here after Aftermath aired.
Making a cultural observation, but the Great Wall of Scientology is much like what the internet is doing to general society as well as Fake News. Scientologists were the first to create an isolated cultural group amongst the general society, but the internet is doing that too to the rest of us. In other words, there is no common culture as the world globalizes, just a bunch of splinter groups. For example, look at the decline of NFL viewers.
Scientology TV is an example of this cultural shift where we are so divided, we don’t look over the other guy’s fence. Fake News is similar to what Scientologists call entheta. It is data not considered positive, so it is given a negative label. So in the words of the current paradigm, Scientology TV is Fake News.
Always has been.
Golden,
Another definition for ” Fake News” nowadays is any news that someone doesn’t like, doesn’t want to hear or read, etc. Leaving aside whether or not its accurate and true, its data that is unwanted or inconvenient and therefore quite automatically a lie…fake news.
Scientology has been doing this for a really long time, only their term for fake news is “entheta”.
Going back in history, when religions were aligned with governments, when there was no separation between the two and church and state were one, anything the church didn’t like about itself was fake news too, only it was called “heresy”. punishable by torture, imprisonment and/or death.
Also in those times, when or heaven forbid if someone criticized the king or the queen it was also automatically fake news and their term for it was “treason” with the offender at risk to suffer the same consequences.
There are people today who fervently believe that if they don’t hear it on Fox News or read it on Breitbart or hear it from say Rush Limbaugh or some other rightwinger on radio, that its automatically not true, (fake news) and the same holds true for the other side of the political coin with .CNN, Wapo, and whomever their go to leftwinger pundit is.
It would appear that nowadays the veracity of lack thereof as regards any datum depends a great deal not on whether the facts check out or not but merely on who is stating it.
Back in the day, if the king said it was true it HAD to be true, and vice versa. If the church said it was true, good luck if you said it wasn’t! Veracity of a datum entirely dependent upon source.
One of the key reasons Scientology is failing miserably is due to this kind of “thinking” that’s been going on since the 50s. At worst its dangerous and life threatening and at best it just doesn’t work and turns people off.
Thanks RB,Hilarious
Tonight on the Oxygen channel “Mysteries and Scandals” show, there will be a show about three Scn actors who had disastrous outcomes after doing Scn counseling and training. One will be about Johnny Lewis, the rising star Scn actor who bludgeoned his landlord to death and killed her cat too and then jumped off or fell off her roof to his death. And there are two other actors the show will go over too. The church has tried to downplay Johnny Lewis’ participation in the church by saying he was not a member when he went whonky. But not only was he a member but he had attained the state of Clear and was a Class IV auditor and audited others. Although I am so sorry for what Michael and Divona Lewis have had to go through with the death of their son, but on the other hand, this story needs to be told in the ongoing shining of the light of the church’s deeds. Tune in to Oxygen’s Mystery and Scandals today, Fri to see the Johnny Lewis and other actors’ story
To update this post of mine, I found out it is featuring only 1 Scn and the other two actors are not Scns. It airs tonight at 9:00 on Oxygen’s Mysteries and Scandals.
The one Scn child actor who made it big and then went splewie is Johnny Lewis. He was a gung ho active Scn for many years and then, his mom, Divona, told me that he started reading “entheta on the internet” about Scn and decided he was not going to pursue the OT Levels then. Per the show which more or less quoted his dad, Michael, he said Johnny wanted to leave Scn and he didn’t do anything to stop him. So here is a huge observation:
Johnny read bad stuff about Scn on the internet and then wanted to leave the religion. Why did his parents and siblings never have to disconnect from him? They never disconnected from him and they are all in good standing with the church even to this day. Why the double standard? Others have been declared just for reading the blogs. And because of their SP Declare, their family had to disconnect from the person. Why didn’t Johnny and his family go through disconnection like thousands of other Scn families have gone through per the rules of Scn?
The answer is simple: Johnny and his family were whales in Scn. They had money and donated lots of it to the IAS and the Idle Morgues and to buy their own Bridges. The Lewises amassed their money through their jobs (she is a Power FSM and he has a field practice), through a huge inheritance from Michael’s dad, and through inheriting Johnny’s residual income from his acting career. Scientology doesn’t make the whales disconnect for the same actions that they make others disconnect. The reason is that the money would then dry up. Other examples: Tom Cruise never had to disconnect from Katie after she left, and the Duggans never had to disconnect when the husband left. And I”m sure other readers here can supply their own list of double standards with the church. It’s not fair that the rich whales don’t have to abide by the same insane rules that the others do. RIP, Johnny.
Yea. And Travolta too..i wonder if his daughter is a practicing Scientoligist. .hmmm
When was the last time Travolta himself was on a service ?
Cindy – exactly, double standards. The whales/celebrities never have to abide by the rules of us mere mortals. What drove me nuts when in was when Tom Cruise was married to Nicole and both were going up the bridge and they never had to disconnect from her parents (one or both) that are psychologists. You know damn well we wouldn’t be allowed up the bridge. Such BS, all of it.
Thank’s for the heads up!
Sadly, an accurate portrayal of a scamologist.
Ugh.. Funny but not funny.. Dealing with and listening to their altered sense of reality is painful..
Their smugness is what gets me. Smugness for make believe. (Shaking my head)
RB,
You depict so accurately the insanity that exists within the cult. It’s like Nero playing his fiddle while Rome burned. I’m glad there will be a season 3 of Aftermath.
Scientology is becoming more and more toxic. It needs more exposure as it continues to exploit people and defraud them.
Exactly BKmole, “Scientology needs more exposure as it continues to exploit people and defraud them.” So true. Regraded Being really hit the nail on the head with this one. This is how brainwashed the still in really are. But I used to be like that sadly. I remember being leaned on to donate and the whole pitch was that they’d cleared up the drug cartel in Columbia, so we need to get more “Way to Happiness” booklets out to Columbia fast to continue the fantastic wins we were having cleaning up the drug situation. Ha! what a crock and lie that was. Columbia is just as bad now as it ever was regarding the drug scene and the warring cartels. But I believed and gave more money because of that lie. I hang my head in shame.
No need to be ashamed because you wanted to help Cindy. That will always be a valuable trait.
These days I kind of favor the old ‘never fear to hurt another for a just cause’ drivel which was uttered by our favorite con artist and emulated by His protege. Translated …. it works out to be something like ‘don’t worry about criticizing a cult if it will help others avoid the scam’!
Yo Eff Pee,
Come on out and play today …… if Dave will give you permission. We missed you yesterday but I realize you needed to get yer stats up and didn’t have any extra time.
Yo Dave,
Howz the inundation of yer mORGues going now that your SuMP is out in public?
To: Newcomer
From: David Miscavige COB RTC
Re: my new network
When my new SuMP, I mean, SMP, really gets going, you will see millions of people flood my idle, I mean, ideal orgs! But if I see you in any one of these orgs, I will route your sorry ass to Gold Base for special processing of my choosing!
SPs are not allowed in my orgs!
So, there!
ML
Dave
Oh Cindy, YOU didn’t do anything wrong, or maybe it was the wrong thing for the right reason. It was because you believed what you were told by people who sure didn’t deserve your loyalty.
This is what makes me so sad and angry at this cult. They exploited (and continue to) really good people. The shame is on them Cindy.
Yes Peggy and Newcomer, the shame is on the C of $ for lying so blatantly to good people who just wanted to help. That help urge was betrayed as the money just went into Davey’s coffers with no way to trace it.
Cindy, I bought the IAS BS from the beginning. Great way to go bankrupt.
Fantastic RB,
Hey dude, stop binge watching and listen to the ‘cleaning lady’.
I listened to the ‘cleaning lady.’ She cleaned me out.
Yes. The “cleaning lady”! I feel your pain.
She must have been a Scientologist.
LOL, yes, Jim! That “Look, don’t listen” advice leaped out at me!
RB, I love the dry humor you insert here and there.
This cleaning lady line hit a nail on the head because I have a cleaning lady whose respect I value a lot. Perceptive, kind, sensible and sharp as a tack, if she had not been born into a poor family of 12 in Venezuela, and had had the benefit of an education she’d be running a major corporation instead of cleaning homes and offices.
Tech comment: For the very first time, I’m unable to double click on each panel and have it enlarge. And at my age, I need all the help I can get visually! But I struggled through and that husband gets more and more dense. Great job, RB!
Can you just enlarge your whole screen display? That’s what I do – hit that 3 times and it gets big enough to read easily.
Same here Peter – I liked it when you could enlarge each panel. It was easier to read.
I’ve got a long stick you can use.
Peter Norton, you should really look into scientology. Your poor eyesight is because of an engram that is causing your reactive mind to create poor eyesight. Auditing should clear that up in no time.
Yep, ole’ LRH even cured the common cold. Scientolgists NEVER get sick.
Yea. I think you’ve been eavesdropping, RB. I heard the flock are super excited about their TV station. Finally, people are going to understand what scientology is all about and they even got a gander of its great leader (and his big heart). If they don’t, well, then the wog world SCOHB.
And now the hammer is down!
Yo Dave,
Will they come ……… or will they go? How You gonna fix it this time Dr. Dingleberry?
Hint: Find out who’s fault it is and set the matter straight as only You can do Dave.
Then You can do a reality piece on Danny Masterson; show the world how $cientology Ethics can be applied by a cult member to make amends and turn their life around. It would increase yer ratings good buddy!
Newcomer – I know I haven’t told you recently but just to remind you, I love your comments and look for them every day.
Me too.
Mary, I LOVED your interview with Aaron. You described the early days to a T, these were the reasons we silly baby boomers got in and hooked. Then you described the middle to the end perfectly. You were great and Aaron is a great interviewer. For anyone who hasn’t listened yet please do, especially the never-ins, you will acquire great insight from Mary. So thanks for this great interview.
Thanks!