It is truly amazing that pregnancy & children are banded, not wanted, by this cult’s mentality. MOST religions welcome with open arms the addition of NEW church members in order for the church membership to continue to GROW & PROSPER FINANCIALLY.
Of course, most churches do NOT require their members to pay hundreds and thousands of dollars for “lessons & instructions” for the ability to “move across a bridge” to clear a planet. Most religious instructions are given to children who begin their religious education for a nominal fee.
Add to that a possible donation to the church for a wedding or funeral service or baptism….and then the weekly donation envelope….that’s about it. Unless someone WANTS to make a sizeable donation in memory of a family member who is deceased…that’s about it.
Most churches do NOT require to empty your bank account, run up charges on multiple credit cards, cash in retirement or college funds of 401k’s…..it is unfathomable to know that’s what COS does, take ALL your financial security….
Whatever DID happen to Joy Villa’s child? I know Thorsten von Overgaard has one or two children in the SO, and sees them from time to time, but what about Joy’s child (daughter, I think)?
Your ‘opinion’ is immaterial and rather stupid. If any organisation is forcing people to do things they cannot morally live with, that organisation is, as you say ‘over the top and sicko’. J3rk 0ff
Those last comments in the fourth panel sound like natter bordering on verbal tech. Blondie may be spending the next few years in a basement dormitory…
Ugh! Logic does not apply in this cult and that is for sure.
If an unborn baby is a Thetan or even a pre-Thetan, then it seems logical the cult should ask the unborn how they feel about being killed before they kill them.
After all, when does an unborn become a Thetan? Does it happen at the instant it is born? If so, who is to say when exactly that instant is? And who is there who understands infant talk? Who can tell if the newly born has said whether it wants to be killed or not?
P.S. In case anyone thinks I’ve lost my mind, I’m just trying to be sarcastic to make the point that it seems very clear that killing children whether born or unborn – whether pre-born or post-born or any time in between sure does seem like an abomination. It also seems unbelievably savage and (some other adjective that is so ghastly I don’t think there exists any word yet to describe it) for anyone to say they are qualified to determine whether the instantly-born chooses to be killed or not.
I know first hand this stuff is true. My Sea Org wife aborted for the greatest good. Scientology, ever since then has been on my shit list, and I left shortly thereafter.
I seriously doubt that any unborn could or wood choose to be killed. And yes, of course forcing women to have an abortion is an abomination. LEG spoke very heavily against abortion in DMSMH. If he changed his mind later I do not know. But for someone to be forced or even advised to do such a thing is wrong.
This is a “satirical cartoon” but in my opinion it’s over the top and rather sicko. If someone wanted to make the case that this is a hate site this “cartoon” would be an example.
Ok. So, are you saying this because the Church of Scientology does not ever coerce it’s Sea Org members into aborting their unborn children, or are you saying that the Church does indeed do these things but it’s best not to talk about it?
RB – Today it’s probably “only” coercion to who knows what extent and peer pressure if for no other reason than the legalities. In the past I don’t doubt it involved harassment, intimidation and threats. Several people are reading this episode as if it were current practice in the CofS with women locked in rooms crying and screaming and other women pondering if COB will decide to kill babies.
People who a firm in their anti abortion conviction should at least support family planning and birth control. World population in 1800 was 1 billion, in 1960 it was 3 billion, and today it’s approaching 8 billion. Mass human extinction from global warming caused by overpopulation is a possibility. The Pope, the Catholics and rest of the be fruitful and multiply crowd need to have a revelation.
Richard if you are THAT concerned about there being too many people on Earth then follow your convictions and remove yourself and your use of resources. OTHERWISE, you are just another f’ing hypocritical lunatic.
If you don’t commit suicide you are just part of the problem.
Off Topic: I hadn’t seen anything from Chris Shelton until just recently, and I have to say, he’s very interesting to listen to. He explains things very well. Here’s a recent interview.
This is off-topic but, in a sense, we’re lucky to have David Miscavige and his management team in place. Why? Because they consistently bungle everything they attempt to do. The latest boondoggle is the subject of Tony Ortega’s blog today about Aaron Smith-Levin and Scientology’s plot to infiltrate The Aftermath Foundation. It’s just always a comedy of errors.
Really, Miscavige and his team are helping our cause by making themselves and Scientology look bad on every available occasion. Thanks guys. Keep up the bad work!
In the Thursday Funnies edition of this blog, there were questions about a picture of a bee on a poster of an event taking place in Manchester England. I Googled “Manchester England city mascot” and found the answer. Here it is:
The worker bee is one of the best-known symbols of Manchester. It was adopted as a motif for Manchester during the Industrial Revolution, at a time when Manchester was taking a leading role in new forms of mass production, and symbolises Mancunians’ hard work during this era and Manchester being a hive of activity in the 19th century
Anyone who would leave their own father to die in a parking lot is not fit company for others, never mind leading ‘the most ethical group on the planet’.
I agree! I found my father deceased after an accident. I was robbed of many years with my father. To treat your parent with such disdain boils my blood. I would be happy to adopt Ron as a father. I am sure that everyone here has a special place in our hearts for Ron. I know I do.
This is a powerfully brilliant, hauntingly chilling column. Seen in this light, there’s simply no sugar coating the fact that Scientology is a belief system that has actually compelled some omembers to practice human sacrifice…for the “greater good.”
Human sacrifice; a very tough pill to swallow, indeed, especially for former members.
“Dev-T’, what a brain screwing concept. First abortions are encouraged and then they required. Then they are not required and you can go to ‘lower level’ mOrg and have that baby. Now abortions are required again. I guess a shortage of staff requires everyone to be ‘on case’.
Don’t bother telling Joy Villa about this. Attention whores don’t care.
I got a perspective from this I hadn’t considered before. The conversation between the two staff sounds like they’re discussing some kind of modern-day eugenics program. The eugenics movement in the US was a big deal in the early 20th century. It had lot’s of support. It’s a sobering thought to frame the Sea Org’s disregard for the lives of individual members as something so sinister.
Chris,
Unfortunately eugenics was right up Hubbard’s ally. I know that you have posted moderation, and I admire that, but this subject really needs to be brought to light….what did you think the “wogs” were to Hubbard?? We were the “lower sub-human” race that was expendable- eugenics at its ugliest. He may not have heavily advertised his belief to the masses, but it is unmistakable when it’s read by a never in. He explicitly wrote about how to deal with the sub homo novis race. What did you think would happen to the people who resisted being “cleared” by Scientology? It would be an impediment to clearing the planet wouldn’t it, and you know how Hubbard dealt with those who resisted his teachings.
I don’t want to pull up any angst regarding this subject, but I can’t stay silent on this one.
Now, “I don’t want to pull up any angst regarding this subject, but I can’t stay silent on this one.” No, no, I’m sure you don’t, but I also think all forensic psychologists especially those who like to juxtapose Scientology with Nazi-ism should be rounded up and put on Alcatraz! And also those who advocate burning Dianetics books that they have never read and still can’t answer basic questions about the subject! It’s “unmistakably mistaken” when read by a never-in! And all the psychologists and psychiatrists who instigated the euthanasia camps! And all the psychs who make out that they can read Hubbard’s mind (are they then OT?) but post what they like about him when trying to make a name for themselves! Wipe ’em out I say! (Hang on, I’m frothing at the mouth – I’d best go and see my psychologist and get some treatment!)
I have already stated that the mental health profession has many problems. However, the goal is to help people, not suppress and repress them. I still contend (and always will) that Scientology is a strange juxtaposition of people’s temple and naziism. The parelells are there if you would open your eyes for even a second and take a good look around. Eugenics was practiced up to and through the 70’s. It was wrong then and it is wrong now. That is what the subject is here. It is also that Hubbard was an elitist who saw entire groups as “lower toned” (I believe that is the proper terminology for it) which is exactly the premise used in eugenics.
I hold Hubbard in contempt- I have always been very transparent in that matter. I have also stated multiple times that I believe some individuals may have gotten some gains/wins through auditing.
See, that is how debate works foolproof- you acknowledge that the other person has some valid points- and is entitled to their opinions. you accept them and move on. You may even agree with them. You do not categorically reject every argument just to reject the argument- it is a give and take. You apparently never learned in school how argument and debate work.
You can’t seem to get it through your head that I’ve read Dianetics and was completely repulsed by it. I’ve explained ad nauseam that I will debate you in Dianetics when you are able to admit to some of the flaws- until then it is pointless.
Just to point out some of the issues with Dianetics- as I did for peacemaker, the entire premise is built on borrowed works from early philosophy and psychology.
Let’s start with Maslows hierarchy- look it up and see what the basic needs are according to Maslow. It was published in the 1940’s so you cannot claim Hubbard came up with it first. Once you have read that we can start debating Dianetics step by step. Otherwise there is no point.
You seem to presume that I want to debate something with you? You also don’t seem to understand that engrams, secondaries and locks are not “inventions” of Hubbard, nor even this dude you are going on about that you’ve hastily dug up out of nowhere, they are simply phenomena that exist for every one. Hubbard cleverly found a way to handle and erase them refining it over decades to its final point in 1978. There is, as such, nothing to “debate”!
Fool,
Ok- you don’t want to open your eyes to cognitive psychology- lets try something much simpler. Maslow’s hierarchy of needs (human motivations)- published in the 1940’s. Taught in high school.
The hierarchy essentially shows the pathway to self actualization starting with the most basic human need- survival. Humans must complete each level before moving up the pyramid to the pinnacle which is self awareness.
Does this sound at all familiar to you?
As I said before- crack a book.
If you open your eyes to some of the pre-existing information, you might be better able to argue your points. If you actually knew the factual basis for some of the counter arguments it might make your stance a little stronger… the kicking your feet and screaming like a two year old method of arguing that you seem to prefer is ineffectual.
Foolproof punishes himself with belief in faeries and such. Were this the middle ages, he would be walking down a dusty road, flagellating the skin off his back. Punish on, FP, no one’s gonna stop the Proven Fool. When someone called it a prison of belief they hit the Fool on the head. ha ha. You are hereby sentenced to life, without parole, forced to live with yourself.
What, you mean like your cobber (Australian rendition of “buddy” for Mike) Jesuit George would do? No no, no one could be that foolish! Surely not?
Kat LaRuesays
AA,
That is a truth worth repeating. He doesn’t want to let go of the belief because it’s scary out there in the real world.
Fool wouldn’t change his thinking even if Hubbard came back and told him it was all a made up scam to fleece people out of money. That would end up being one of those “he wasn’t serious- I know because I cognated it ” or whatever claims to keep the blinders firmly glued on.
Theta Boppsays
Foolproof – I burned the Dianetics book because it is not a workable science. You need to deprogram. You are suffering from righteous indignation of a religious fanatic brain washed follower. Set your ego aside and strictly deal with facts. Dianetics and Scientology is not a science. Hubbard lies, Scientology and Scientologists lie. You are stuck in an incident of long duration. Come to PT.
Foolproof: Nom…Nom….Nom… Crunch! My engrams are delicious. 😉
Honestly – do some research on cognitive dissonance. Step back 3 feet from your ego, who wants to be right about Scientology, and just look at all of the information out there about Tubby and his cult. The truth is the truth. Hubbard was a con man, a liar and a criminal hiding from the law. He was crazy. He tried to kill himself. Don’t go up the Bridge to Total Freedom in Scientology or you will end up like El Con Hubbtard. The entire Scientology system is nothing but a horrible hoax, a scam, a lie. You, my good friend, have been duped. Scientology SUCKS! Deprogram yourself from the Scientological Implants and be free from that trap. It does not work. You don’t have BT’s and Cluster’s all over you either. Those are delusions from Ron’s broken and shattered mind. There ain’t no Xenu either. Who knows if you come back. Enjoy your mest and your life here now. Go get some lovin and find some joy. Get out of Scientology for good.
Administered by psychologist Kat in her long white gown and stethoscope? Oh! No! I forgot, it’s only psychiatrists who do that, psychologists have far too much decorum!
As a matter of fact, I’v just been reading about Hitler’s eugenics program; very shocking. The “unfit” were put to death in the thousands so as not to be a burden to the “able” hard-fighting German race.
I believe Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, was an enthusiastic eugenicist. Hitler’s horror show put an end to any serious talk of eugenics, but scientology is keeping alive without without naming it.
Bix,
Don’t be alarmed, but eugenics was practiced in the US all the way up to the 70’s. I’m not proud to admit it, and I’m a little surprised Hubbard didn’t wholeheartedly agree with it, but many mentally ill and mentally disabled were involuntarily sterilized so that they couldn’t “reproduce”. It’s an ugly ‘secret’ that is not really a secret- it’s there if you look, just not advertised. I believe it is still practiced to some degree in other countries.
Kat
Chris, Hubbard grew up in the era of eugenics, so it’s certainly possible that it was actually an influence. He certainly came out parallel, and related, strains of pseudo-science and nietzschean fascism, such as through his early influence and claimed “very good friend” Aleister Crowley, who had close ties with the German occult lodges that promoted racial purity and eugenics and, ultimately, genocide.
Hubbard’s writings in Science of Survival – “scripture” to Scientology – certainly echo such sentiments, such as suggesting the answers to dealing with large number of people (at least 2.5% of the population, which in the US would be the eerily reminiscent number of 8 million) who have supposed “suppressive” personalities:
“dispose of them quietly and without sorrow…or simply quarantining them from the society. A Venezuelan dictator once decided to stop leprosy. He saw that most lepers in his country were also beggars. By the simple expedient of collecting and destroying all the beggars in Venezuela an end was put to leprosy in that country”
“The sudden and abrupt deletion of all individuals occupying the lower bands of the tone scale from the social order would result in an almost instant rise in the cultural tone and would interrupt the dwindling spiral into which any society may have entered. ”
If you read and listen (to taped lectures) to what Hubtard says about native sub-Saharan Africans you can see it came straight out of the KKK. Margaret Sanger, Democratic Party eugenics propaganda from the early 20th century.
I am sure that this is one area that scientologists and Hubbardites would love to hide from the world. Their unbending stance that everything he ever wrote or said is scripture makes it difficult for them to explain this one away- foolproof wont touch it except to imply it wasn’t really something Hubbard meant seriously. (which is convenient how they can pick and choose which statements should be taken literally and which ones should be discarded as not relevant).
On one hand, Hubbard condemned the treatment of people in psychiatric facilities while at the same time saying that the ‘unworthy’ should be disposed of quietly. He fails to see the irony in what he wrote and said- Im sure that he didn’t realize that he was opening himself up to researchers who could spot the craziness in his contradictory writings (yes, foolproof- its contradictory to on one hand condemn the treatment of mentally ill and on the other propose mass deletions, rounding up and quarantining or disposing of these same people- because they obviously would NOT make it to the bridge).
No – it’s not – it is simply that you are deliberately taking it literally and trying to convince the other fools on here that it should be taken literally.
“He [Hubbard] fails to see the irony in what he wrote”. Or rather you fail or deliberately fail to see such – when it suits your agenda of course.
In actual fact Ron was so clever that he hypnotized and brainwashed Mike into becoming a bitter apostate so that Mike would start a web site where all the people that should really be rounded up could vomit their displeasure for a while and a list could be made of them for the GO boys when they are restored to power under a de-programmed Mike again so that such people could be ahem, quarantined from the rest of society. Ironically speaking that is! It’s ironic isn’t it? In fact I am not sure if the irony of the irony is getting too ironic?
The “horrifying real secret” of the Anti-Scientology Cult is their predisposition to take things literally or present it to others who take things literally.
Foolproof,
And you accuse others of trying to read Hubbard’s mind. Were there little asterisks on specific passages that let you know not to take something literally? If not- how do YOU know not to take it literally??
Also- if everything that Hubbard said and wrote was absolute truth, how can you not take what he said and wrote literally- wouldn’t that be denying his statements (which is a huge no-no apparently). You always try to pick and choose the statements you wish to support and try to sidle away from the indefensible ones. Why is that?
Er, because I understand them and can think conceptually and I don’t have an agenda to interpret them literally to try and convince other people that he was a monster? How about that? Seems to hit the nail on the head eh?
Do you really think Hubbard was advocating exterminating them or was he just being forcefully tongue-in-cheek? If so you have not read any of Hubbard’s works. Or you have some sort of agenda.
Fool,
LOL- you really are priceless. So if it fits your idea of what you believe to be true, its relevant. if not -its trash. situational ethics again. And actually I do believe he was serious.
Fool,
So what were the plans for “wogs” when the world was cleared of all those who could be cleared?? Would they all just ‘poof away’ with a magic wand? Where were they supposed to go??? Obviously the planet can’t be cleared if us “wogs” are hanging out impeding your progress, so tell me fool- what was Hubbard’s grand plan for dealing with us?? What about all the SPs? And PTS’s???
Foolproofsays
What, like psychiatry and psychology did in the Nazi Death Camps?
All this unfounded drama! This is a common misconception that every person on the planet must be Clear for the planet to be cleared. It’s only when any baying hyena opposition like psychologists, vested interest groups like Big Pharma, governments and people who write nonsense on silly blogs are nullified, not that the latter play an important role at all but we might as well include them eh? In other words all the SPs and PTSes and their lackeys – haha! SPs BTW can be handled with Power Processing and Grade 2, PTSes will be de-PTSed anyway. Voila! So there’s hope for you yet!
Anyway, by the time that occurs we’ll have interstellar spaceships and you and the others above can stay here stewing in your juices. But I’m not being ironic here, or am I? And do you take all this literally is another question?
And I’ve already sent your name to the Resettlement Department for Pluto so I won’t see you on “The Dark Side of the Moon” then?
Mike Rindersays
Do you really think this sort of comment makes you look like a balanced, intelligent and emotionally well example of what scientology can do for a person?
This is a serious question.
Should readers here look to you as someone who exemplifies what scientology could do for them?
Foolproofsays
Well, you seem to be another one that doesn’t get a bit of irony.
And even if I wasn’t being somewhat ironic above do you really think I give a shit as to what people who read this web site think of me? As Hubbard stated in Dianetics Today book when a man goes into the zoo he should not be worrying what the apes think of him. And I am not proselytizing for Scientology especially among the denizens or “netizens” who post or believe some of the drivel posted here, or at all anyway – they are mostly all A-Jers or have some personal chagrin or are simply being destructive. You will notice I never adversely comment on or support something which I can also see to be true such as the stance on IAS or Ideal Orgs donations etc.
Most of the comments here are warped, bitter and vitriolic and you wonder about my comment above for setting an example? To whom?
Mike Rindersays
If you’re not trying to prove that scientology is right why do you bother commenting?
Foolproofsays
To Mike above: probably for the same reason you posted your story about “Mike Rinder A Scientology Nobody” – in order to correct falsehoods. Pretty straightforward. From my viewpoint you can write what you like about IAS and Ideal Org donations and Dave smacking people in the kisser, I won’t object and such needs to be said (although the constant repetition is wearisome). But I will object when people write nonsense, such as use of the word “wog” and the Barley Formula and the “Tech doesn’t work” etc. etc. Ok now?
jimsays
Foolproof.
Both the Scientology Cult and the Anti-Scientology Cult individual members are disposed to make/take literal things Hubbard wrote/said. Each for their own agenda. Neither are inclined to end their game.
Best to leave them to their games condition (a locked-in condition). Stay balanced and expand in awareness.
Jim, thanks for your concern. I am actually trying to provide some balance here at least. Thanks again, I am quite touched to receive a decent comm here now and again.
You know you’ve hit a touchy nerve when FP babbles in. This particular RG feature was as compelling as anything the author has published. There’s an old saying that goes, “If you’re not getting FLAK, you’re not over the target.” Troll traffic is often a telling reaction, and should be duly noted.
Good point. Im still trying to figure out which of LRHs statements are to be taken seriously and which are not- it seems to be a secret known only to scientologists!! If something doesn’t fit in the neat little box they created to defend Hubbard, its trash. If it fits, its truth. Where is the guide?? As I’m still unable to find anything defensible in the whole mess, its impossible to know which quotes and writings are off limits.
Apparently this entire topic is one of the ‘indefensible and therefore disposable’ ones. Please excuse my inability to discern the difference. The irony of this will be lost on fool.
Science Fiction Writers can spin some really great tales of intergalactic beings……& visits from outer space….i.e. The Day The Earth Stood Still…..The Body Snatchers (sounds somewhat like Scientology….A NEW MEAT BODY WITHOUT EMOTIONS)….
Hubbard got people committed to “clearing the planet”…..although we realize THAT is never going to happen. As far as the tiny tyrant goes…it’s HIS way or NO WAY…..
Touchy nerve eh? I totally agree that the enforced abortions were an abomination so that’s spoiled your little theory then. And as for Troll Traffic, if I didn’t post then there would be virtually no troll traffic here anyway, which reinforces your theory (conversely). So the website has virtually no effect then, according to your theory. You can er, duly note that then!
This is just one more sad and pathetic aspect to Scientology. I had hoped the policy had been changed after the public revelations, but I was probably just being unrealistic. IMO, Miscavige will regret this policy- He has lost respect and members over the policy, which should have told him how harmful it is. It’s a black eye on the cult that they would have been wise to discontinue a long time ago (it would have been wiser to never have had the policy to begin with) However, logic and long term planning are definitely NOT Miscavige’s strong points. He lacks an ability to objectively see how things appear to the public “wogs” out here and seems to have the emotional maturity of a child.
OSD:
I don’t know if it can get much worse but this cannot be much better. My wife was ordered by executives on the Freewinds to let me die when I was I’ll with HIV AIDS. She was told by the Capttain that I was going to die and that nothing could be done for me. She was held against her will on the ship while they waited for me to die. Then when IDA INT ordered them to release her to avert a possible flap they told her to put me in a hospice to die.
At the time there was good treatments for AIDS which the ships doctor was well aware of.
Thank you Balletlady.
I have not been able to find my now ex-wife for over 5 years. She has obviously been ordered to disconnect from me. I have not seen a copy of my declare but she owns the house I used to live in an if the cult sent a copy to me they would have sent it there.
How very sad Bill…..to know that this precious woman has more or less be ordered out of your life. It is sickening to see so many family members separated by the cult like mentality.
So sad that you’ve been through so much, but to you CREDIT you remain afloat & are a very strong person despite life’s challenges. You are truly a role model for so many others & I wish you well.
While working for Family Services, I was helping a1 18 year old young woman who had escaped from FLDS….she was living in a safe house for a few months. Her father had several other “wives” and a multitude of children. The families were living in rundown homes & her father had given his “favorite wife” and their children almost everything. Her father had plans “under orders” to get her married off, she was considered “well past the age of a female who SHOULD have been married already”.
This young girl felt she didn’t deserve anything because “she displeased her father”….after many attempts to help her, she missed her siblings and mother terribly & actually went back to FLDS.
We heard later on that at the tender age 18, she was more or less “coerced or ordered” to marry a man who was 25+ years older & who had 4 other wives & two dozen children. She was his new “breeding mare”…..she was pregnant immediately after marriage.
This is so painful to confront. What we did to ourselves and others while we were saving the planet is excruciatingly painful to address. I am ashamed I was ever part of Scientology and feel great regret and remorse that I did what I did to myself and others when I was in. Somehow giving myself the justification that I was under mind control is not cutting it for me. I am so sorry for any pain I caused anyone out there. I truly am.
Lurkers – please, please, please – save yourself some heartache and trauma and LOOK at everything. Watch Going Clear and Leah Remini and Mike Rinder’s show on A&E. Read all of the blogs and books written by ex members. Please – don’t do anymore harm to yourselves or others until you have seen everything you can find on the subject of Scientology – the good, the bad and the ugly. Decide for yourselves if you think you should continue in Scientology.
Ditto. I am mainly sorry for the pain I caused and will cause my son – for ever getting him in and for failing to teach him that truth has to be sought by each individual – not “What does Source/LRH/COB say?” and that one needs to learn how to create his own life. No Bridge can create it for you.
Mary – your raised your son with what you felt would help him have a happy and successful life. He’ll work it out for himself as he’s a strong, intelligent kid – mainly because he had loving, caring parents.
Mary, I want to tell you that of all the stories presented by The Aftermath program as well as others I have read on Tony Ortga’s blog, yours is the one story that pains me the most. I am reluctant to even call it a “story” because that makes it sound like something less than it is. But I don’t know what else to call it. It is impossible for me to get an accurate sense of the pain this must have caused you. I feel very inadequate at the thought there is so little I can do to put an end to this kind of torment.
I have donatated some money to The Aftermath Foundation, but that seems so inadequate as compared to what you and Sammy are going through. God Bless you both and I hope and pray we all will find great joy on that day when this monstrous scam is terminated and you will hopefully be reunited with your son.
I any of the people who work for President Trump are reading this blog, I would like to suggest to him that if he were to revoke their ridiculous Tax Exempt Status, the nation would stand up in unison and cheer for him.
Thank you, Skyler, for this thoughtful response. I am very moved by it. It is, in fact, the only reason I told my story – so that people would understand and maybe help make it stop. I really appreciate your understanding.
Can the 2nd Dynamic BE more aberrated than the Sea Org and DM make it? The SO before DM wasn’t a whole lot saner; in fact the suppression imposed by Tubby’s policies were a large part of why I ggot the depression that lead me finally to leave.
“Can the 2nd Dynamic BE more aberrated than the Sea Org and DM make it?”
No, and this is why, after completing LOC, I had the cognition (Scientologese for “realization”) that the Sea Org, by its own policies and practices, is doomed.
A group can’t put a heavy block on what is NATURE’S purpose for sex without doing yourself in as a group.
I put “nature” in caps for those will correctly point out that another viable purpose of sex is pleasure without pregnancy via birth control. But that’s not nature’s purpose, its our purpose achieved thru birth control tech. And really, if it weren’t pleasurable, why would anyone do it?
Back on point:
Its entirely one thing for a religion to forbid sex and bearing children out of wedlock.
At least the RCs have confronted this and are consistent. For their clergy there is no sex, no marriage, no children. Now I don’t necessarily, personally agree with this policy of the Roman Catholic Church, but AT LEAST it can be respected as realistic and consistent.
But, for Scientology’s clergy, to allow them to have sex with marriage, but no children with marriage?
THAT is just completely nuts. Really, it just couldn’t be more nuts!
The Sea Org began began to die when this policy went into effect, IMHO.
And the way their “clergy” get paired up and split up, then freshly re-coupled and split split up, married and divorced, married and divorced, etc., etc.,Miscavige controlling this like a farmer controls his barnyard animals… and this coupling and uncoupling of them controlled by their master and occurring within a dwindling number of people…its incestuous. So maybe its a good thing after all that since the mid 80s they’ve been forbidden to have children. If they were, the kids would grow up and marry each other and then their kids would marry each other and have kids, and it wouldn’t be long before they were all related and giving birth to idiots.
Abortions would not be happening if Mary Sue Hubbard was still around. She was absolutely the most caring member and executive in the sea org. I can say this from knowing her and personally experiencing her great caring for staff. Also knew David Miscarriage and from all I saw know he is the exact opposite of Mary Sue. No wonder he tossed her out. Wonder how many babies have been killed since…..
Glenn
Mary Sue Hubbard was Bay shit crazy
L Ron used children as slaves
He threw a child in the chain locker
Don’t kid yourself
Mary Sue broke the law and went to prison
I was on staff 40-35 years ago. In the area I was posted, it was absolutely unheard of for a Sea Org member to be asked to get an abortion. This was the time when staff were retained in the Sea Org and the children were supposed to be looked after. (I know that there were many shortcomings here.)
When I started reading about forced abortions on sites such as this I was very deeply shocked since it is so much different than what I observed. Quite apart from all the other reasons I left, this on its own would have been a complete deal-breaker for me.
Whatever you think of Mary Sue or even Hubbard himself, forced abortions did not become common practice until Miscavige took over after Hubbard died.
The abortion policy essentially came about because the “shortcomings” of the nurseries and cadet orgs constituted some of the most severe organizational child neglect and endangerment ever, worse in many instances than the most awful of the Catholic reformatories or the infamous Romanian orphanages, on par with the sort of abuses Scientology would dream up to accuse of evil “psychs” of:
“The babies there were all underfed as they were given feeding according to Ron’s orders — he has Flag Orders written on baby formulas. There was food all over the walls and floors, maggots in the kitchen and these robotic children wandering around. Piles and piles of dirty laundry thrown in the front hall. It was awful…. I was never so glad that I had never become pregnant in the Sea Org. If I had done so, I knew I would have snuck out and had an abortion, with no qualms whatsoever. No way would any child of mine end up there.” – affidavit of Ann Bailey regarding conditions at the Melrose location in Los Angeles, 1977
“My duties were to care, clean and feed the children. Myself and another girl my age were the two oldest children at the Cadet Organization. The living conditions were squalid. Glass from broken windows lay strewn over the floors. Live electrical wires were exposed in areas where young children played. We received little food. On several occasions spoiled milk with maggots was served to children. The maggots were removed by hand before the milk was served. In addition to caring for the children, I cleaned toilets daily. I wrote to L. Ron Hubbard explaining the conditions, but nothing improved. Children were not allowed to live with their parents. Scientology permitted one visit every other week, and only for 45 minutes during mealtime.” – from the affadavit of Tonja Burden regarding conditions in San Francisco in 1973
“I couldn’t believe it. It was wall-to-wall cribs. There were just under 30 children and they were under my sole care. I had no training….
They never got outside. Actually, they got out once – in eight months, they got out once. And that … took three months to get that approved. … We took them in a van, the children, and took them to the park and they spent so much time in their cribs, day after day, night after night, that they wouldn’t go in any space larger than the size of their cribs. They were terrified. They were terrified of sunlight.” – account of Sheila Huber
Scientology could never manage to prioritize taking care of children or giving families time together no matter how bad it go, so the only solution the CofS could manage was to prohibit Sea Org members from having children, and then deal with any women who did get pregnant.
There are many more accounts of bad conditions and horror stories here:
Can you put your wonderful research machine to work? Do they still take children into the sea-org- specifically at what age? I’m wondering because there are definite rules about education even in a cult. They apparently dodged the child labor laws somehow, but they would need some sort of acceptable educational program for all these kids which would necessitate a specific number of hours of classroom instruction. I’m wondering if this could be a crack in the plaster that we could widen into a hole..,
Kat, I don’t have a ready source of information for details of current Sea Org recruiting practices, though I think that Chris Shelton is the one most currently documenting such things – but he does it all on videos, which are hard to research and reference. Generally, from what I’ve picked up, the SO seems to now wait until children are at least 16 to recruit them, though I recall running across accounts of 14 if not 12 year olds signing staff contracts if not Sea Org ones. There are consistent reports that Scientology continues to find ways to implement grossly inadequate “religious” and home schooling (which don’t really have classroom hour requirements enforced), and then to manage to get badly under-educated youth to pass GEDs, so that they are still getting away with giving children little more than the equivalent of a 6th to 8th grade education, if that.
In the old days, particularly in California, Scientology was pretty devious in getting away with things, having moles in agencies who would warn them of impending inspections and raids in enough time for them to avoid enforcement – there are multiple accounts testifying to exactly that. They have really honed the ability to skirt the margins of the law, exploiting loopholes and their supposed “religious” status, in those and other ways.
p.s. I hope that you’ll respond to FP, and my, request to detail at least some specifics of the issues you found with Hubbard’s Dianetics book
I did, although probably not as well or as in depth as you would like or the subject deserves. I do not have a copy of the book- I got it from the library where I was doing other research prior to posting, but I went ahead and bought a used copy on line for my current ‘project’ (I’m cross referencing all of Hubbards ‘discoveries’ with already existing schools of thought- and I will need a copy to get much further without scrounging from internet sites which is not optimal)
That said, I have added a few more to my list, and will try to pepper them throughout newer posts as I go.
Dead Men Tell No Tales Bill Straasssays
DM joined the SO in 1976 when he was 16.
PeaceMakersays
Kat, as far as specifics, I appreciate your response, and hope you can enlighten us by citing some exact terms or phrases that struck you. I find it helps a lot to have specific citations.
Diehards and true believers may dodge and deny when presented with evidence of contradictions and inconvenient truths, though it at least it tends to get them to expose their disingenuousness, and scuttle off looking for some more defensible topic. However, lurkers may well be influenced when Hubbard’s words or hard-to-deny evidence are cited.
p.s. If you google something like “Dianetics PDF” or “Dianetics TXT” you may find a site, perhaps run by indies, where there is an electronic copy that, among other things, can be conveniently searched.
I’m so old school its embarrassing. I like to have pages under my finger tips and the tactile sensations to properly research deeply. I use and cross reference electronically, but to really dig deep I prefer hard copy. I also like to flip back and forth and highlight passages, so old school it is- which necessitates an actual copy of the book. (I made sure to buy a used copy so that the cult wont receive any royalties). I don’t know what it is about reading the actual tome versus reading the electronic version, but for me, its optimal for memorization and research.
I guess it is also habit- this is the first blog Ive ever participated on, and I just signed up on twitter this week to respond to some of the updates. I don’t do facebook, (my son made a page, and it occasionally pops up but I don’t go there and have no idea what is on it) which is why I got lost when Ann tried to steer me towards a facebook page. Its pitiful I know, but Im not a social media person at all.
Oh yes – L Ron Hubbard would never have ordered murders. Children had value – they make perfect slaves. When L Ron Hubbard threw a child in a the chain locker for days as a punishment… well, that proves the loving care L Ron Hubbard had for children. At least he did not murder the kids – that we know of.
Wait a minute….
L Ron Hubbard told one of his many wives… after he kidnapped his daughter… that he was going to kill her. He kidnapped her and threatened all sorts of horrible things. He put the child in the care of thugs because he was Source. He knew all about that barley formula. LOL
Oh yes, L Ron Hubbard was quite the guy! He was Source who was Sauced.
For those of you trying to justify the “good people who cared” in Scientology – you are completely missing the point of how people get trapped into cults.
Look at the big picture of the actual results of Scientology – the actual statistcs which are death, murder, suicides, homicides, shattered dreams, shattered minds, shattered families.
Cognitive Dissonance is painful but the sooner you “still believers” confront the truth – the sooner you will heal from the mind control. Study up on love bombing and its relationship to trauma bonding. Also – Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. You have to put in the work if you truly want to be free from the side effects of Scientology. It is a long, hard road but you can do it!
I knew Mary Sue personally and had many interactions with her. She cared deeply for staff and I witnessed this many times. My knowledge of her is based on personal observation and experience. She was kind and caring and set a remarkable example for others. Sadly few if any “listened”.
The GO answered to LRH and he did know all about all the illegal shit they were doing. Mary Sue eventually “took the bullet” for him. But isn’t that what one might expect from someone who has a lot of love and caring in their heart.
Glenn – You have what cult experts explain as “cognitive dissonance” and I feel bad for you.
Mary Sue helped L Ron Hubbard develop a cult where they made millions at the cost of destroying lives.
Mary Sue was the “love bomber” and made you feel safe. It is mind boggling how you justify that but none the less, good luck with dealing with the “cognitive dissonance”.
I hope you find a way to heal it. Start with confronting the truth and nothing but the truth. Take baby steps …. the same way you got indoctrinated into believing Mary Sue was a good hat. She was evil and knew how to love bomb.
Glenn – study up on cults and narcissists and how they use “love bombing” . I am afraid Glenn, that you were duped by the love bombing. Mary Sue was good at it. I knew her too. Study up on Cults and find out how they use the Love Bomb. Just look at the results of Scientology and get honest with yourself. Can you find one clear or OT or one person who has done incredible things for humanity? Just one?
Glenn,
Regardless of how “caring” she was, she followed his orders explicitly. I sincerely doubt she would have made any fuss. Eerily similar to Shelly Miscavige. People say she was caring too- look where that got her. Like Mary Sue, she became a liability and was discarded. The men who run this cult are evil, uncaring bastards who really do not have a shred of respect for women regardless of their slick maneuvers of claiming otherwise. Look at the situation with Masterson as well- it was the women’s fault they were raped- Masterson did nothing wrong. It’s so sick it makes my stomach turn.
Didn’t know Shelly but from all I’ve read about her I think you’re right.
Tend to agree with you on the cult’s treatment of women. In my years of experience the only ones who’ve been respected were the bitches who operated just like men. Ruthless, violently aggressive ones with no compassion or sense of ethics whatsoever. A friend’s wife worked in the Flag GO handling all their legal shit; he told me the mantra she was known by was; “sue the bastards”!!! She divorced the guy when he chose not to have a child with her. Point being, guess you have to be a bitch to survive in the sea org.
But again. Mary Sue was not. She always treated me with great compassion and humanity every day. Her children and grandchild followed her example (for the most part) so I know they were taught well. LRH wasn’t around so wasn’t an influence. Maybe the family was doing so well because he wasn’t. But maybe because she was 2nd in command she could be the wonderfully caring person she truly was.
Yes, there is a policy to always attack. Find an enemy’s crimes and attack, attack, attack. Never introvert and submit to being investigated. It is what is being done in the Masterson debacle. And yes it is policy and therefore is unquestionable.
Throughout my life the people I have chosen as friends have always been women. This is because they have always been more theta and caring. And honestly a lot more ‘grown up’ in so many ways. Maybe this was a factor in why Mary Sue and I hit it off so well. But the fact remains, I have always intuitively bonded with women and I know this is because of the higher level of humanity, compassion and humility they possess and demonstrate in life.
Thanks for the different perspective on Mary Sue. I have always kind of pitied her and yet was mildly disgusted with her- she compromised her own self-worth to break the law at Hubbard’s command- that specifically troubles me- as does the fact that Hubbard let the mother of his children go to jail so that he could remain free. I can never get my head around the women that Hubbard married- what were they thinking??
Breaking the law was regular practice in the cult and still is today. It was always justified as the “greater good for the greater number”. But of course the cult was the only actual benefactor; never any of the other dynamics. Was Mary Sue a party to this. You bet. I’ve read documents with her signature which confirm this. Everyone believed the “greater good” justification and lied under oath, fraudulently obtained government benefits, hid funds and moved around under the cloak of misrepresentation. The lies contained in “shore stories” were amazing fabrications. No doubt you’ve read about the cult’s move to Clearwater under the cloak of Southern Land Development and Leasing (United Churches of Florida) back in 1975. Just one of many shams committed under that justification.
But regardless of Mary Sue’s involvement as a staff member, she was an amazingly caring woman. I can attest to this from direct personal experience and because I’ve always been very aware and perceptive know without doubt I was never duped by her. Others who’ve commented on this thread have implied she “worked me” or “love bombed me” but I can assure you I was never so dumb as to be the victim of such. I knew Mary Sue and her children and grand daughter. Lots of personal interaction with all and I know what I know and have no doubt in my ability to see the truth in front of me. This ability is what gave me the power to understand the organization I was in for so long and finally take complete responsibility for my being there and walk away with pride and confidence.
I know what I know, I am now fully free and self determined and have never been happier in life. I owe this to my being able to confront all the past and take full responsibility for my part in everything I experienced. The losses, the pain, the complete idiocy of it all and everything I allowed to happen. I got myself out. And that’s ultimately the only way to achieve personal freedom, in my humble opinion.
Then you will be just fine! If you perceived Mary Sue as a friend and an empathetic woman, then that was what she was to you. End of story. Changing your opinion on that will change nothing substantial, so….(as we like to say in the medical field: it is what it is.)
It is truly amazing that pregnancy & children are banded, not wanted, by this cult’s mentality. MOST religions welcome with open arms the addition of NEW church members in order for the church membership to continue to GROW & PROSPER FINANCIALLY.
Of course, most churches do NOT require their members to pay hundreds and thousands of dollars for “lessons & instructions” for the ability to “move across a bridge” to clear a planet. Most religious instructions are given to children who begin their religious education for a nominal fee.
Add to that a possible donation to the church for a wedding or funeral service or baptism….and then the weekly donation envelope….that’s about it. Unless someone WANTS to make a sizeable donation in memory of a family member who is deceased…that’s about it.
Most churches do NOT require to empty your bank account, run up charges on multiple credit cards, cash in retirement or college funds of 401k’s…..it is unfathomable to know that’s what COS does, take ALL your financial security….
Whatever DID happen to Joy Villa’s child? I know Thorsten von Overgaard has one or two children in the SO, and sees them from time to time, but what about Joy’s child (daughter, I think)?
Your ‘opinion’ is immaterial and rather stupid. If any organisation is forcing people to do things they cannot morally live with, that organisation is, as you say ‘over the top and sicko’. J3rk 0ff
Those last comments in the fourth panel sound like natter bordering on verbal tech. Blondie may be spending the next few years in a basement dormitory…
Ugh! Logic does not apply in this cult and that is for sure.
If an unborn baby is a Thetan or even a pre-Thetan, then it seems logical the cult should ask the unborn how they feel about being killed before they kill them.
After all, when does an unborn become a Thetan? Does it happen at the instant it is born? If so, who is to say when exactly that instant is? And who is there who understands infant talk? Who can tell if the newly born has said whether it wants to be killed or not?
P.S. In case anyone thinks I’ve lost my mind, I’m just trying to be sarcastic to make the point that it seems very clear that killing children whether born or unborn – whether pre-born or post-born or any time in between sure does seem like an abomination. It also seems unbelievably savage and (some other adjective that is so ghastly I don’t think there exists any word yet to describe it) for anyone to say they are qualified to determine whether the instantly-born chooses to be killed or not.
This entire cult is fucking nuts!
I know first hand this stuff is true. My Sea Org wife aborted for the greatest good. Scientology, ever since then has been on my shit list, and I left shortly thereafter.
Paul,
I am so sorry to hear that you had to go through something so traumatic. I hope that you and your wife healed and I’m glad you escaped.
Kat
I seriously doubt that any unborn could or wood choose to be killed. And yes, of course forcing women to have an abortion is an abomination. LEG spoke very heavily against abortion in DMSMH. If he changed his mind later I do not know. But for someone to be forced or even advised to do such a thing is wrong.
That abortion is killing babies is an opinion. Forcing an abortion on someone is a different matter.
This is a “satirical cartoon” but in my opinion it’s over the top and rather sicko. If someone wanted to make the case that this is a hate site this “cartoon” would be an example.
Well said Richard. I understand RB is trying to make a point but this is FAR too over the top.
Scott H what ARE you blathering on about? MUCH worse has happened to women in the Sea Org vis-a-vis coerced abortions.
Richard, only a complete idiot would think that this is a hate sight. NEVER write for idiots. Write for normal people.
Ok. So, are you saying this because the Church of Scientology does not ever coerce it’s Sea Org members into aborting their unborn children, or are you saying that the Church does indeed do these things but it’s best not to talk about it?
RB – Today it’s probably “only” coercion to who knows what extent and peer pressure if for no other reason than the legalities. In the past I don’t doubt it involved harassment, intimidation and threats. Several people are reading this episode as if it were current practice in the CofS with women locked in rooms crying and screaming and other women pondering if COB will decide to kill babies.
RB, FYI, Richard is still brainwashed by Hubtard. He tries to hide it but I have caught him in MANY lies about his past adherence to the cult.
Scott H. is probably from OSA
my vegas money is on 2 accounts, one person.
Starve the Effin Trolls.
People who a firm in their anti abortion conviction should at least support family planning and birth control. World population in 1800 was 1 billion, in 1960 it was 3 billion, and today it’s approaching 8 billion. Mass human extinction from global warming caused by overpopulation is a possibility. The Pope, the Catholics and rest of the be fruitful and multiply crowd need to have a revelation.
Richard if you are THAT concerned about there being too many people on Earth then follow your convictions and remove yourself and your use of resources. OTHERWISE, you are just another f’ing hypocritical lunatic.
If you don’t commit suicide you are just part of the problem.
Detective Wynski is on duty! Thanks for the advice. Didn’t need it, didn’t want it, but thanks anyhow. laughter
AS I thought. Richard is Just another insane hypocrite.
Off Topic: I hadn’t seen anything from Chris Shelton until just recently, and I have to say, he’s very interesting to listen to. He explains things very well. Here’s a recent interview.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=8ergzjDMbmM
This is off-topic but, in a sense, we’re lucky to have David Miscavige and his management team in place. Why? Because they consistently bungle everything they attempt to do. The latest boondoggle is the subject of Tony Ortega’s blog today about Aaron Smith-Levin and Scientology’s plot to infiltrate The Aftermath Foundation. It’s just always a comedy of errors.
Really, Miscavige and his team are helping our cause by making themselves and Scientology look bad on every available occasion. Thanks guys. Keep up the bad work!
KSB.
Keeping Scientology Bumbling.
In the Thursday Funnies edition of this blog, there were questions about a picture of a bee on a poster of an event taking place in Manchester England. I Googled “Manchester England city mascot” and found the answer. Here it is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbols_of_Manchester
The worker bee is one of the best-known symbols of Manchester. It was adopted as a motif for Manchester during the Industrial Revolution, at a time when Manchester was taking a leading role in new forms of mass production, and symbolises Mancunians’ hard work during this era and Manchester being a hive of activity in the 19th century
That is a “belief system” I am eternally grateful to never have been introduced to.
What a fucked up bunch of bullshit.
Lisa, waddle your way right on outta that shit. And be right quick about it!
Anyone who would leave their own father to die in a parking lot is not fit company for others, never mind leading ‘the most ethical group on the planet’.
I agree! I found my father deceased after an accident. I was robbed of many years with my father. To treat your parent with such disdain boils my blood. I would be happy to adopt Ron as a father. I am sure that everyone here has a special place in our hearts for Ron. I know I do.
Even as a Never In and a Randroid I’m sickened by this.
This is a powerfully brilliant, hauntingly chilling column. Seen in this light, there’s simply no sugar coating the fact that Scientology is a belief system that has actually compelled some omembers to practice human sacrifice…for the “greater good.”
Human sacrifice; a very tough pill to swallow, indeed, especially for former members.
Wild, but valid enough point Len.
I was looking for those words to describe RB’s cartoon:This is a powerfully brilliant, hauntingly chilling column
“Dev-T’, what a brain screwing concept. First abortions are encouraged and then they required. Then they are not required and you can go to ‘lower level’ mOrg and have that baby. Now abortions are required again. I guess a shortage of staff requires everyone to be ‘on case’.
Don’t bother telling Joy Villa about this. Attention whores don’t care.
Where’s Shelly? The cult must go on.
I got a perspective from this I hadn’t considered before. The conversation between the two staff sounds like they’re discussing some kind of modern-day eugenics program. The eugenics movement in the US was a big deal in the early 20th century. It had lot’s of support. It’s a sobering thought to frame the Sea Org’s disregard for the lives of individual members as something so sinister.
Chris,
Unfortunately eugenics was right up Hubbard’s ally. I know that you have posted moderation, and I admire that, but this subject really needs to be brought to light….what did you think the “wogs” were to Hubbard?? We were the “lower sub-human” race that was expendable- eugenics at its ugliest. He may not have heavily advertised his belief to the masses, but it is unmistakable when it’s read by a never in. He explicitly wrote about how to deal with the sub homo novis race. What did you think would happen to the people who resisted being “cleared” by Scientology? It would be an impediment to clearing the planet wouldn’t it, and you know how Hubbard dealt with those who resisted his teachings.
I don’t want to pull up any angst regarding this subject, but I can’t stay silent on this one.
Now, “I don’t want to pull up any angst regarding this subject, but I can’t stay silent on this one.” No, no, I’m sure you don’t, but I also think all forensic psychologists especially those who like to juxtapose Scientology with Nazi-ism should be rounded up and put on Alcatraz! And also those who advocate burning Dianetics books that they have never read and still can’t answer basic questions about the subject! It’s “unmistakably mistaken” when read by a never-in! And all the psychologists and psychiatrists who instigated the euthanasia camps! And all the psychs who make out that they can read Hubbard’s mind (are they then OT?) but post what they like about him when trying to make a name for themselves! Wipe ’em out I say! (Hang on, I’m frothing at the mouth – I’d best go and see my psychologist and get some treatment!)
Foolproof,
I have already stated that the mental health profession has many problems. However, the goal is to help people, not suppress and repress them. I still contend (and always will) that Scientology is a strange juxtaposition of people’s temple and naziism. The parelells are there if you would open your eyes for even a second and take a good look around. Eugenics was practiced up to and through the 70’s. It was wrong then and it is wrong now. That is what the subject is here. It is also that Hubbard was an elitist who saw entire groups as “lower toned” (I believe that is the proper terminology for it) which is exactly the premise used in eugenics.
I hold Hubbard in contempt- I have always been very transparent in that matter. I have also stated multiple times that I believe some individuals may have gotten some gains/wins through auditing.
See, that is how debate works foolproof- you acknowledge that the other person has some valid points- and is entitled to their opinions. you accept them and move on. You may even agree with them. You do not categorically reject every argument just to reject the argument- it is a give and take. You apparently never learned in school how argument and debate work.
You can’t seem to get it through your head that I’ve read Dianetics and was completely repulsed by it. I’ve explained ad nauseam that I will debate you in Dianetics when you are able to admit to some of the flaws- until then it is pointless.
Just to point out some of the issues with Dianetics- as I did for peacemaker, the entire premise is built on borrowed works from early philosophy and psychology.
Let’s start with Maslows hierarchy- look it up and see what the basic needs are according to Maslow. It was published in the 1940’s so you cannot claim Hubbard came up with it first. Once you have read that we can start debating Dianetics step by step. Otherwise there is no point.
You seem to presume that I want to debate something with you? You also don’t seem to understand that engrams, secondaries and locks are not “inventions” of Hubbard, nor even this dude you are going on about that you’ve hastily dug up out of nowhere, they are simply phenomena that exist for every one. Hubbard cleverly found a way to handle and erase them refining it over decades to its final point in 1978. There is, as such, nothing to “debate”!
foolproof,
Crack a book- PLEASE!!! if there is nothing to debate why do you keep trying? Your ignorance is showing.
Kat
Fool,
Ok- you don’t want to open your eyes to cognitive psychology- lets try something much simpler. Maslow’s hierarchy of needs (human motivations)- published in the 1940’s. Taught in high school.
The hierarchy essentially shows the pathway to self actualization starting with the most basic human need- survival. Humans must complete each level before moving up the pyramid to the pinnacle which is self awareness.
Does this sound at all familiar to you?
As I said before- crack a book.
If you open your eyes to some of the pre-existing information, you might be better able to argue your points. If you actually knew the factual basis for some of the counter arguments it might make your stance a little stronger… the kicking your feet and screaming like a two year old method of arguing that you seem to prefer is ineffectual.
Kat
Foolproof punishes himself with belief in faeries and such. Were this the middle ages, he would be walking down a dusty road, flagellating the skin off his back. Punish on, FP, no one’s gonna stop the Proven Fool. When someone called it a prison of belief they hit the Fool on the head. ha ha. You are hereby sentenced to life, without parole, forced to live with yourself.
What, you mean like your cobber (Australian rendition of “buddy” for Mike) Jesuit George would do? No no, no one could be that foolish! Surely not?
AA,
That is a truth worth repeating. He doesn’t want to let go of the belief because it’s scary out there in the real world.
Fool wouldn’t change his thinking even if Hubbard came back and told him it was all a made up scam to fleece people out of money. That would end up being one of those “he wasn’t serious- I know because I cognated it ” or whatever claims to keep the blinders firmly glued on.
Foolproof – I burned the Dianetics book because it is not a workable science. You need to deprogram. You are suffering from righteous indignation of a religious fanatic brain washed follower. Set your ego aside and strictly deal with facts. Dianetics and Scientology is not a science. Hubbard lies, Scientology and Scientologists lie. You are stuck in an incident of long duration. Come to PT.
Well, good for you. You can keep your engrams and chew on them for eternity.
Foolproof: Nom…Nom….Nom… Crunch! My engrams are delicious. 😉
Honestly – do some research on cognitive dissonance. Step back 3 feet from your ego, who wants to be right about Scientology, and just look at all of the information out there about Tubby and his cult. The truth is the truth. Hubbard was a con man, a liar and a criminal hiding from the law. He was crazy. He tried to kill himself. Don’t go up the Bridge to Total Freedom in Scientology or you will end up like El Con Hubbtard. The entire Scientology system is nothing but a horrible hoax, a scam, a lie. You, my good friend, have been duped. Scientology SUCKS! Deprogram yourself from the Scientological Implants and be free from that trap. It does not work. You don’t have BT’s and Cluster’s all over you either. Those are delusions from Ron’s broken and shattered mind. There ain’t no Xenu either. Who knows if you come back. Enjoy your mest and your life here now. Go get some lovin and find some joy. Get out of Scientology for good.
Don’t worry. A few thousand VOLTS will take care of that.
Administered by psychologist Kat in her long white gown and stethoscope? Oh! No! I forgot, it’s only psychiatrists who do that, psychologists have far too much decorum!
Just go to your prayer closet and beg forgiveness from Hubbard. You’ll feel much better after.
As a matter of fact, I’v just been reading about Hitler’s eugenics program; very shocking. The “unfit” were put to death in the thousands so as not to be a burden to the “able” hard-fighting German race.
I believe Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, was an enthusiastic eugenicist. Hitler’s horror show put an end to any serious talk of eugenics, but scientology is keeping alive without without naming it.
Bix,
Don’t be alarmed, but eugenics was practiced in the US all the way up to the 70’s. I’m not proud to admit it, and I’m a little surprised Hubbard didn’t wholeheartedly agree with it, but many mentally ill and mentally disabled were involuntarily sterilized so that they couldn’t “reproduce”. It’s an ugly ‘secret’ that is not really a secret- it’s there if you look, just not advertised. I believe it is still practiced to some degree in other countries.
Kat
Chris, Hubbard grew up in the era of eugenics, so it’s certainly possible that it was actually an influence. He certainly came out parallel, and related, strains of pseudo-science and nietzschean fascism, such as through his early influence and claimed “very good friend” Aleister Crowley, who had close ties with the German occult lodges that promoted racial purity and eugenics and, ultimately, genocide.
Hubbard’s writings in Science of Survival – “scripture” to Scientology – certainly echo such sentiments, such as suggesting the answers to dealing with large number of people (at least 2.5% of the population, which in the US would be the eerily reminiscent number of 8 million) who have supposed “suppressive” personalities:
“dispose of them quietly and without sorrow…or simply quarantining them from the society. A Venezuelan dictator once decided to stop leprosy. He saw that most lepers in his country were also beggars. By the simple expedient of collecting and destroying all the beggars in Venezuela an end was put to leprosy in that country”
“The sudden and abrupt deletion of all individuals occupying the lower bands of the tone scale from the social order would result in an almost instant rise in the cultural tone and would interrupt the dwindling spiral into which any society may have entered. ”
Jeffrey Augustine writes about the subject in this piece, with an sensationalistic but not entirely off the mark title – given what Hubbard wrote and Scientology continues to teach,
The Horrifying Real Secret of Scientology is Genocide
https://scientologymoneyproject.com/2015/02/02/the-horriying-real-secret-of-scientology-is-genocide/
If you read and listen (to taped lectures) to what Hubtard says about native sub-Saharan Africans you can see it came straight out of the KKK. Margaret Sanger, Democratic Party eugenics propaganda from the early 20th century.
Wynski,
That’s where the term “wog” comes from. I believe Aqua pointed out that it is used in books and movies in just such a context to be derogatory.
Peacemaker,
I am sure that this is one area that scientologists and Hubbardites would love to hide from the world. Their unbending stance that everything he ever wrote or said is scripture makes it difficult for them to explain this one away- foolproof wont touch it except to imply it wasn’t really something Hubbard meant seriously. (which is convenient how they can pick and choose which statements should be taken literally and which ones should be discarded as not relevant).
On one hand, Hubbard condemned the treatment of people in psychiatric facilities while at the same time saying that the ‘unworthy’ should be disposed of quietly. He fails to see the irony in what he wrote and said- Im sure that he didn’t realize that he was opening himself up to researchers who could spot the craziness in his contradictory writings (yes, foolproof- its contradictory to on one hand condemn the treatment of mentally ill and on the other propose mass deletions, rounding up and quarantining or disposing of these same people- because they obviously would NOT make it to the bridge).
No – it’s not – it is simply that you are deliberately taking it literally and trying to convince the other fools on here that it should be taken literally.
“He [Hubbard] fails to see the irony in what he wrote”. Or rather you fail or deliberately fail to see such – when it suits your agenda of course.
In actual fact Ron was so clever that he hypnotized and brainwashed Mike into becoming a bitter apostate so that Mike would start a web site where all the people that should really be rounded up could vomit their displeasure for a while and a list could be made of them for the GO boys when they are restored to power under a de-programmed Mike again so that such people could be ahem, quarantined from the rest of society. Ironically speaking that is! It’s ironic isn’t it? In fact I am not sure if the irony of the irony is getting too ironic?
The “horrifying real secret” of the Anti-Scientology Cult is their predisposition to take things literally or present it to others who take things literally.
Foolproof,
And you accuse others of trying to read Hubbard’s mind. Were there little asterisks on specific passages that let you know not to take something literally? If not- how do YOU know not to take it literally??
Also- if everything that Hubbard said and wrote was absolute truth, how can you not take what he said and wrote literally- wouldn’t that be denying his statements (which is a huge no-no apparently). You always try to pick and choose the statements you wish to support and try to sidle away from the indefensible ones. Why is that?
Er, because I understand them and can think conceptually and I don’t have an agenda to interpret them literally to try and convince other people that he was a monster? How about that? Seems to hit the nail on the head eh?
Do you really think Hubbard was advocating exterminating them or was he just being forcefully tongue-in-cheek? If so you have not read any of Hubbard’s works. Or you have some sort of agenda.
Fool,
LOL- you really are priceless. So if it fits your idea of what you believe to be true, its relevant. if not -its trash. situational ethics again. And actually I do believe he was serious.
Well, that just goes to prove how stupid as well as malicious you are then.
Fool,
So what were the plans for “wogs” when the world was cleared of all those who could be cleared?? Would they all just ‘poof away’ with a magic wand? Where were they supposed to go??? Obviously the planet can’t be cleared if us “wogs” are hanging out impeding your progress, so tell me fool- what was Hubbard’s grand plan for dealing with us?? What about all the SPs? And PTS’s???
What, like psychiatry and psychology did in the Nazi Death Camps?
All this unfounded drama! This is a common misconception that every person on the planet must be Clear for the planet to be cleared. It’s only when any baying hyena opposition like psychologists, vested interest groups like Big Pharma, governments and people who write nonsense on silly blogs are nullified, not that the latter play an important role at all but we might as well include them eh? In other words all the SPs and PTSes and their lackeys – haha! SPs BTW can be handled with Power Processing and Grade 2, PTSes will be de-PTSed anyway. Voila! So there’s hope for you yet!
Anyway, by the time that occurs we’ll have interstellar spaceships and you and the others above can stay here stewing in your juices. But I’m not being ironic here, or am I? And do you take all this literally is another question?
And I’ve already sent your name to the Resettlement Department for Pluto so I won’t see you on “The Dark Side of the Moon” then?
Do you really think this sort of comment makes you look like a balanced, intelligent and emotionally well example of what scientology can do for a person?
This is a serious question.
Should readers here look to you as someone who exemplifies what scientology could do for them?
Well, you seem to be another one that doesn’t get a bit of irony.
And even if I wasn’t being somewhat ironic above do you really think I give a shit as to what people who read this web site think of me? As Hubbard stated in Dianetics Today book when a man goes into the zoo he should not be worrying what the apes think of him. And I am not proselytizing for Scientology especially among the denizens or “netizens” who post or believe some of the drivel posted here, or at all anyway – they are mostly all A-Jers or have some personal chagrin or are simply being destructive. You will notice I never adversely comment on or support something which I can also see to be true such as the stance on IAS or Ideal Orgs donations etc.
Most of the comments here are warped, bitter and vitriolic and you wonder about my comment above for setting an example? To whom?
If you’re not trying to prove that scientology is right why do you bother commenting?
To Mike above: probably for the same reason you posted your story about “Mike Rinder A Scientology Nobody” – in order to correct falsehoods. Pretty straightforward. From my viewpoint you can write what you like about IAS and Ideal Org donations and Dave smacking people in the kisser, I won’t object and such needs to be said (although the constant repetition is wearisome). But I will object when people write nonsense, such as use of the word “wog” and the Barley Formula and the “Tech doesn’t work” etc. etc. Ok now?
Foolproof.
Both the Scientology Cult and the Anti-Scientology Cult individual members are disposed to make/take literal things Hubbard wrote/said. Each for their own agenda. Neither are inclined to end their game.
Best to leave them to their games condition (a locked-in condition). Stay balanced and expand in awareness.
Jim, thanks for your concern. I am actually trying to provide some balance here at least. Thanks again, I am quite touched to receive a decent comm here now and again.
You know you’ve hit a touchy nerve when FP babbles in. This particular RG feature was as compelling as anything the author has published. There’s an old saying that goes, “If you’re not getting FLAK, you’re not over the target.” Troll traffic is often a telling reaction, and should be duly noted.
Chris,
Good point. Im still trying to figure out which of LRHs statements are to be taken seriously and which are not- it seems to be a secret known only to scientologists!! If something doesn’t fit in the neat little box they created to defend Hubbard, its trash. If it fits, its truth. Where is the guide?? As I’m still unable to find anything defensible in the whole mess, its impossible to know which quotes and writings are off limits.
Apparently this entire topic is one of the ‘indefensible and therefore disposable’ ones. Please excuse my inability to discern the difference. The irony of this will be lost on fool.
Science Fiction Writers can spin some really great tales of intergalactic beings……& visits from outer space….i.e. The Day The Earth Stood Still…..The Body Snatchers (sounds somewhat like Scientology….A NEW MEAT BODY WITHOUT EMOTIONS)….
Hubbard got people committed to “clearing the planet”…..although we realize THAT is never going to happen. As far as the tiny tyrant goes…it’s HIS way or NO WAY…..
Touchy nerve eh? I totally agree that the enforced abortions were an abomination so that’s spoiled your little theory then. And as for Troll Traffic, if I didn’t post then there would be virtually no troll traffic here anyway, which reinforces your theory (conversely). So the website has virtually no effect then, according to your theory. You can er, duly note that then!
This is just one more sad and pathetic aspect to Scientology. I had hoped the policy had been changed after the public revelations, but I was probably just being unrealistic. IMO, Miscavige will regret this policy- He has lost respect and members over the policy, which should have told him how harmful it is. It’s a black eye on the cult that they would have been wise to discontinue a long time ago (it would have been wiser to never have had the policy to begin with) However, logic and long term planning are definitely NOT Miscavige’s strong points. He lacks an ability to objectively see how things appear to the public “wogs” out here and seems to have the emotional maturity of a child.
Being forced to kill their babies. Can it possibly get any worse? But, hey, that’s Scientology for you.
OSD,
Unfortunately it may get worse before it gets better-
OSD:
I don’t know if it can get much worse but this cannot be much better. My wife was ordered by executives on the Freewinds to let me die when I was I’ll with HIV AIDS. She was told by the Capttain that I was going to die and that nothing could be done for me. She was held against her will on the ship while they waited for me to die. Then when IDA INT ordered them to release her to avert a possible flap they told her to put me in a hospice to die.
At the time there was good treatments for AIDS which the ships doctor was well aware of.
I as a “never in” count myself LUCKY to have met you here Bill. I wish you and your precious wife love & happiness always.
Thank you Balletlady.
I have not been able to find my now ex-wife for over 5 years. She has obviously been ordered to disconnect from me. I have not seen a copy of my declare but she owns the house I used to live in an if the cult sent a copy to me they would have sent it there.
How very sad Bill…..to know that this precious woman has more or less be ordered out of your life. It is sickening to see so many family members separated by the cult like mentality.
So sad that you’ve been through so much, but to you CREDIT you remain afloat & are a very strong person despite life’s challenges. You are truly a role model for so many others & I wish you well.
While working for Family Services, I was helping a1 18 year old young woman who had escaped from FLDS….she was living in a safe house for a few months. Her father had several other “wives” and a multitude of children. The families were living in rundown homes & her father had given his “favorite wife” and their children almost everything. Her father had plans “under orders” to get her married off, she was considered “well past the age of a female who SHOULD have been married already”.
This young girl felt she didn’t deserve anything because “she displeased her father”….after many attempts to help her, she missed her siblings and mother terribly & actually went back to FLDS.
We heard later on that at the tender age 18, she was more or less “coerced or ordered” to marry a man who was 25+ years older & who had 4 other wives & two dozen children. She was his new “breeding mare”…..she was pregnant immediately after marriage.
This is so painful to confront. What we did to ourselves and others while we were saving the planet is excruciatingly painful to address. I am ashamed I was ever part of Scientology and feel great regret and remorse that I did what I did to myself and others when I was in. Somehow giving myself the justification that I was under mind control is not cutting it for me. I am so sorry for any pain I caused anyone out there. I truly am.
Lurkers – please, please, please – save yourself some heartache and trauma and LOOK at everything. Watch Going Clear and Leah Remini and Mike Rinder’s show on A&E. Read all of the blogs and books written by ex members. Please – don’t do anymore harm to yourselves or others until you have seen everything you can find on the subject of Scientology – the good, the bad and the ugly. Decide for yourselves if you think you should continue in Scientology.
Ditto. I am mainly sorry for the pain I caused and will cause my son – for ever getting him in and for failing to teach him that truth has to be sought by each individual – not “What does Source/LRH/COB say?” and that one needs to learn how to create his own life. No Bridge can create it for you.
Mary – your raised your son with what you felt would help him have a happy and successful life. He’ll work it out for himself as he’s a strong, intelligent kid – mainly because he had loving, caring parents.
Plus, you have ALWAYS been an amazing friend.
Yes, there is that side of the logic and it is his path, etc.
Okay. Yes, I am a fabulous friend?
I learned from the best?
Mary, I want to tell you that of all the stories presented by The Aftermath program as well as others I have read on Tony Ortga’s blog, yours is the one story that pains me the most. I am reluctant to even call it a “story” because that makes it sound like something less than it is. But I don’t know what else to call it. It is impossible for me to get an accurate sense of the pain this must have caused you. I feel very inadequate at the thought there is so little I can do to put an end to this kind of torment.
I have donatated some money to The Aftermath Foundation, but that seems so inadequate as compared to what you and Sammy are going through. God Bless you both and I hope and pray we all will find great joy on that day when this monstrous scam is terminated and you will hopefully be reunited with your son.
I any of the people who work for President Trump are reading this blog, I would like to suggest to him that if he were to revoke their ridiculous Tax Exempt Status, the nation would stand up in unison and cheer for him.
Thank you, Skyler, for this thoughtful response. I am very moved by it. It is, in fact, the only reason I told my story – so that people would understand and maybe help make it stop. I really appreciate your understanding.
Can the 2nd Dynamic BE more aberrated than the Sea Org and DM make it? The SO before DM wasn’t a whole lot saner; in fact the suppression imposed by Tubby’s policies were a large part of why I ggot the depression that lead me finally to leave.
“Can the 2nd Dynamic BE more aberrated than the Sea Org and DM make it?”
No, and this is why, after completing LOC, I had the cognition (Scientologese for “realization”) that the Sea Org, by its own policies and practices, is doomed.
A group can’t put a heavy block on what is NATURE’S purpose for sex without doing yourself in as a group.
I put “nature” in caps for those will correctly point out that another viable purpose of sex is pleasure without pregnancy via birth control. But that’s not nature’s purpose, its our purpose achieved thru birth control tech. And really, if it weren’t pleasurable, why would anyone do it?
Back on point:
Its entirely one thing for a religion to forbid sex and bearing children out of wedlock.
At least the RCs have confronted this and are consistent. For their clergy there is no sex, no marriage, no children. Now I don’t necessarily, personally agree with this policy of the Roman Catholic Church, but AT LEAST it can be respected as realistic and consistent.
But, for Scientology’s clergy, to allow them to have sex with marriage, but no children with marriage?
THAT is just completely nuts. Really, it just couldn’t be more nuts!
The Sea Org began began to die when this policy went into effect, IMHO.
And the way their “clergy” get paired up and split up, then freshly re-coupled and split split up, married and divorced, married and divorced, etc., etc.,Miscavige controlling this like a farmer controls his barnyard animals… and this coupling and uncoupling of them controlled by their master and occurring within a dwindling number of people…its incestuous. So maybe its a good thing after all that since the mid 80s they’ve been forbidden to have children. If they were, the kids would grow up and marry each other and then their kids would marry each other and have kids, and it wouldn’t be long before they were all related and giving birth to idiots.
Abortions would not be happening if Mary Sue Hubbard was still around. She was absolutely the most caring member and executive in the sea org. I can say this from knowing her and personally experiencing her great caring for staff. Also knew David Miscarriage and from all I saw know he is the exact opposite of Mary Sue. No wonder he tossed her out. Wonder how many babies have been killed since…..
Glenn
Mary Sue Hubbard was Bay shit crazy
L Ron used children as slaves
He threw a child in the chain locker
Don’t kid yourself
Mary Sue broke the law and went to prison
I was on staff 40-35 years ago. In the area I was posted, it was absolutely unheard of for a Sea Org member to be asked to get an abortion. This was the time when staff were retained in the Sea Org and the children were supposed to be looked after. (I know that there were many shortcomings here.)
When I started reading about forced abortions on sites such as this I was very deeply shocked since it is so much different than what I observed. Quite apart from all the other reasons I left, this on its own would have been a complete deal-breaker for me.
Whatever you think of Mary Sue or even Hubbard himself, forced abortions did not become common practice until Miscavige took over after Hubbard died.
The abortion policy essentially came about because the “shortcomings” of the nurseries and cadet orgs constituted some of the most severe organizational child neglect and endangerment ever, worse in many instances than the most awful of the Catholic reformatories or the infamous Romanian orphanages, on par with the sort of abuses Scientology would dream up to accuse of evil “psychs” of:
“The babies there were all underfed as they were given feeding according to Ron’s orders — he has Flag Orders written on baby formulas. There was food all over the walls and floors, maggots in the kitchen and these robotic children wandering around. Piles and piles of dirty laundry thrown in the front hall. It was awful…. I was never so glad that I had never become pregnant in the Sea Org. If I had done so, I knew I would have snuck out and had an abortion, with no qualms whatsoever. No way would any child of mine end up there.” – affidavit of Ann Bailey regarding conditions at the Melrose location in Los Angeles, 1977
“My duties were to care, clean and feed the children. Myself and another girl my age were the two oldest children at the Cadet Organization. The living conditions were squalid. Glass from broken windows lay strewn over the floors. Live electrical wires were exposed in areas where young children played. We received little food. On several occasions spoiled milk with maggots was served to children. The maggots were removed by hand before the milk was served. In addition to caring for the children, I cleaned toilets daily. I wrote to L. Ron Hubbard explaining the conditions, but nothing improved. Children were not allowed to live with their parents. Scientology permitted one visit every other week, and only for 45 minutes during mealtime.” – from the affadavit of Tonja Burden regarding conditions in San Francisco in 1973
“I couldn’t believe it. It was wall-to-wall cribs. There were just under 30 children and they were under my sole care. I had no training….
They never got outside. Actually, they got out once – in eight months, they got out once. And that … took three months to get that approved. … We took them in a van, the children, and took them to the park and they spent so much time in their cribs, day after day, night after night, that they wouldn’t go in any space larger than the size of their cribs. They were terrified. They were terrified of sunlight.” – account of Sheila Huber
Scientology could never manage to prioritize taking care of children or giving families time together no matter how bad it go, so the only solution the CofS could manage was to prohibit Sea Org members from having children, and then deal with any women who did get pregnant.
There are many more accounts of bad conditions and horror stories here:
What went on in the Cadet Org?
http://www.forum.exscn.net/threads/what-went-on-in-the-cadet-org.2432/
Peacemaker,
Can you put your wonderful research machine to work? Do they still take children into the sea-org- specifically at what age? I’m wondering because there are definite rules about education even in a cult. They apparently dodged the child labor laws somehow, but they would need some sort of acceptable educational program for all these kids which would necessitate a specific number of hours of classroom instruction. I’m wondering if this could be a crack in the plaster that we could widen into a hole..,
Kat, I don’t have a ready source of information for details of current Sea Org recruiting practices, though I think that Chris Shelton is the one most currently documenting such things – but he does it all on videos, which are hard to research and reference. Generally, from what I’ve picked up, the SO seems to now wait until children are at least 16 to recruit them, though I recall running across accounts of 14 if not 12 year olds signing staff contracts if not Sea Org ones. There are consistent reports that Scientology continues to find ways to implement grossly inadequate “religious” and home schooling (which don’t really have classroom hour requirements enforced), and then to manage to get badly under-educated youth to pass GEDs, so that they are still getting away with giving children little more than the equivalent of a 6th to 8th grade education, if that.
In the old days, particularly in California, Scientology was pretty devious in getting away with things, having moles in agencies who would warn them of impending inspections and raids in enough time for them to avoid enforcement – there are multiple accounts testifying to exactly that. They have really honed the ability to skirt the margins of the law, exploiting loopholes and their supposed “religious” status, in those and other ways.
p.s. I hope that you’ll respond to FP, and my, request to detail at least some specifics of the issues you found with Hubbard’s Dianetics book
Peace,
I did, although probably not as well or as in depth as you would like or the subject deserves. I do not have a copy of the book- I got it from the library where I was doing other research prior to posting, but I went ahead and bought a used copy on line for my current ‘project’ (I’m cross referencing all of Hubbards ‘discoveries’ with already existing schools of thought- and I will need a copy to get much further without scrounging from internet sites which is not optimal)
That said, I have added a few more to my list, and will try to pepper them throughout newer posts as I go.
DM joined the SO in 1976 when he was 16.
Kat, as far as specifics, I appreciate your response, and hope you can enlighten us by citing some exact terms or phrases that struck you. I find it helps a lot to have specific citations.
Diehards and true believers may dodge and deny when presented with evidence of contradictions and inconvenient truths, though it at least it tends to get them to expose their disingenuousness, and scuttle off looking for some more defensible topic. However, lurkers may well be influenced when Hubbard’s words or hard-to-deny evidence are cited.
p.s. If you google something like “Dianetics PDF” or “Dianetics TXT” you may find a site, perhaps run by indies, where there is an electronic copy that, among other things, can be conveniently searched.
Peacemaker,
I’m so old school its embarrassing. I like to have pages under my finger tips and the tactile sensations to properly research deeply. I use and cross reference electronically, but to really dig deep I prefer hard copy. I also like to flip back and forth and highlight passages, so old school it is- which necessitates an actual copy of the book. (I made sure to buy a used copy so that the cult wont receive any royalties). I don’t know what it is about reading the actual tome versus reading the electronic version, but for me, its optimal for memorization and research.
I guess it is also habit- this is the first blog Ive ever participated on, and I just signed up on twitter this week to respond to some of the updates. I don’t do facebook, (my son made a page, and it occasionally pops up but I don’t go there and have no idea what is on it) which is why I got lost when Ann tried to steer me towards a facebook page. Its pitiful I know, but Im not a social media person at all.
Kat
Correct!
Oh yes – L Ron Hubbard would never have ordered murders. Children had value – they make perfect slaves. When L Ron Hubbard threw a child in a the chain locker for days as a punishment… well, that proves the loving care L Ron Hubbard had for children. At least he did not murder the kids – that we know of.
Wait a minute….
L Ron Hubbard told one of his many wives… after he kidnapped his daughter… that he was going to kill her. He kidnapped her and threatened all sorts of horrible things. He put the child in the care of thugs because he was Source. He knew all about that barley formula. LOL
Oh yes, L Ron Hubbard was quite the guy! He was Source who was Sauced.
For those of you trying to justify the “good people who cared” in Scientology – you are completely missing the point of how people get trapped into cults.
Look at the big picture of the actual results of Scientology – the actual statistcs which are death, murder, suicides, homicides, shattered dreams, shattered minds, shattered families.
Cognitive Dissonance is painful but the sooner you “still believers” confront the truth – the sooner you will heal from the mind control. Study up on love bombing and its relationship to trauma bonding. Also – Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. You have to put in the work if you truly want to be free from the side effects of Scientology. It is a long, hard road but you can do it!
Stat.
I knew Mary Sue personally and had many interactions with her. She cared deeply for staff and I witnessed this many times. My knowledge of her is based on personal observation and experience. She was kind and caring and set a remarkable example for others. Sadly few if any “listened”.
The GO answered to LRH and he did know all about all the illegal shit they were doing. Mary Sue eventually “took the bullet” for him. But isn’t that what one might expect from someone who has a lot of love and caring in their heart.
Glenn – You have what cult experts explain as “cognitive dissonance” and I feel bad for you.
Mary Sue helped L Ron Hubbard develop a cult where they made millions at the cost of destroying lives.
Mary Sue was the “love bomber” and made you feel safe. It is mind boggling how you justify that but none the less, good luck with dealing with the “cognitive dissonance”.
I hope you find a way to heal it. Start with confronting the truth and nothing but the truth. Take baby steps …. the same way you got indoctrinated into believing Mary Sue was a good hat. She was evil and knew how to love bomb.
Glenn – study up on cults and narcissists and how they use “love bombing” . I am afraid Glenn, that you were duped by the love bombing. Mary Sue was good at it. I knew her too. Study up on Cults and find out how they use the Love Bomb. Just look at the results of Scientology and get honest with yourself. Can you find one clear or OT or one person who has done incredible things for humanity? Just one?
Glenn,
Regardless of how “caring” she was, she followed his orders explicitly. I sincerely doubt she would have made any fuss. Eerily similar to Shelly Miscavige. People say she was caring too- look where that got her. Like Mary Sue, she became a liability and was discarded. The men who run this cult are evil, uncaring bastards who really do not have a shred of respect for women regardless of their slick maneuvers of claiming otherwise. Look at the situation with Masterson as well- it was the women’s fault they were raped- Masterson did nothing wrong. It’s so sick it makes my stomach turn.
Hi Kat,
Didn’t know Shelly but from all I’ve read about her I think you’re right.
Tend to agree with you on the cult’s treatment of women. In my years of experience the only ones who’ve been respected were the bitches who operated just like men. Ruthless, violently aggressive ones with no compassion or sense of ethics whatsoever. A friend’s wife worked in the Flag GO handling all their legal shit; he told me the mantra she was known by was; “sue the bastards”!!! She divorced the guy when he chose not to have a child with her. Point being, guess you have to be a bitch to survive in the sea org.
But again. Mary Sue was not. She always treated me with great compassion and humanity every day. Her children and grandchild followed her example (for the most part) so I know they were taught well. LRH wasn’t around so wasn’t an influence. Maybe the family was doing so well because he wasn’t. But maybe because she was 2nd in command she could be the wonderfully caring person she truly was.
Yes, there is a policy to always attack. Find an enemy’s crimes and attack, attack, attack. Never introvert and submit to being investigated. It is what is being done in the Masterson debacle. And yes it is policy and therefore is unquestionable.
Throughout my life the people I have chosen as friends have always been women. This is because they have always been more theta and caring. And honestly a lot more ‘grown up’ in so many ways. Maybe this was a factor in why Mary Sue and I hit it off so well. But the fact remains, I have always intuitively bonded with women and I know this is because of the higher level of humanity, compassion and humility they possess and demonstrate in life.
Thank you for being there and communicating.
Glenn,
Thanks for the different perspective on Mary Sue. I have always kind of pitied her and yet was mildly disgusted with her- she compromised her own self-worth to break the law at Hubbard’s command- that specifically troubles me- as does the fact that Hubbard let the mother of his children go to jail so that he could remain free. I can never get my head around the women that Hubbard married- what were they thinking??
Kat
Hi Kat,
Breaking the law was regular practice in the cult and still is today. It was always justified as the “greater good for the greater number”. But of course the cult was the only actual benefactor; never any of the other dynamics. Was Mary Sue a party to this. You bet. I’ve read documents with her signature which confirm this. Everyone believed the “greater good” justification and lied under oath, fraudulently obtained government benefits, hid funds and moved around under the cloak of misrepresentation. The lies contained in “shore stories” were amazing fabrications. No doubt you’ve read about the cult’s move to Clearwater under the cloak of Southern Land Development and Leasing (United Churches of Florida) back in 1975. Just one of many shams committed under that justification.
But regardless of Mary Sue’s involvement as a staff member, she was an amazingly caring woman. I can attest to this from direct personal experience and because I’ve always been very aware and perceptive know without doubt I was never duped by her. Others who’ve commented on this thread have implied she “worked me” or “love bombed me” but I can assure you I was never so dumb as to be the victim of such. I knew Mary Sue and her children and grand daughter. Lots of personal interaction with all and I know what I know and have no doubt in my ability to see the truth in front of me. This ability is what gave me the power to understand the organization I was in for so long and finally take complete responsibility for my being there and walk away with pride and confidence.
I know what I know, I am now fully free and self determined and have never been happier in life. I owe this to my being able to confront all the past and take full responsibility for my part in everything I experienced. The losses, the pain, the complete idiocy of it all and everything I allowed to happen. I got myself out. And that’s ultimately the only way to achieve personal freedom, in my humble opinion.
Glenn,
Then you will be just fine! If you perceived Mary Sue as a friend and an empathetic woman, then that was what she was to you. End of story. Changing your opinion on that will change nothing substantial, so….(as we like to say in the medical field: it is what it is.)
Kat
Kat,
I has been quite a pleasure “talking” with you and I look forward to more of it in the future.
Glenn
What else would you expect from a cult created by a PRO pedophilia founder?