This is a screen shot of a recent discussion with Narconon on their website.
The person asks:
“I’ve heard your group is part Scientology, is this true?”
The answer:
“There is no Scientology related.
“We are a non secular program”
The first sentence is simply a lie. They are ABSOLUTELY “Scientology related”…
The second sentence is either a typo or a terrible misunderstanding of the word “secular” — I am sure they meant to say they ARE secular. Because if they deny their scientology connection, they are certainly not going agree that they are affiliated with some OTHER religion (unless they are now professing a Nation of Islam affiliation…)
One need look no further than the official scientology.org website, under “How we help” to find the following entry:
And here you have the International Association of Scientologists on their website promoting the fact that giving money to them “supports Narconon”
And this is not even taking into account that the entire Narconon program is EXACTLY the same materials as is delivered in a scientology organization — written by L. Ron Hubbard.
Plenty of other drug rehab programs PROMOTE their religious affiliations.
Narconon tries to hide. Why?
Two reasons:
- They don’t want to be tainted by the bad PR of scientology
- Hubbard said they were supposed to be secular so they could get grants from the government to support them which would be precluded by the First Amendment if they were religious.
It is just another of the lies that scientology and its front groups foists off on the world, hoping they will not be called out.
Well, here you go. I am calling you out.
And just for good measure, here is an old issue from Hubbard himself…
Why anyone would want to attack Narconon and their attempts to alleviate the problems of drug addictions with probably more success than any other group, fails me. Ah! But hang on, I’ve just had a cognition! I am not a raving lunatic! Well, blow me down!
Why don’t you dudes and gals just stick to your normal (now boring however) lines of attacking IAS and Ideal Orgs or whatever takes your daft fancies. You can even slate 3 swing F/Ns! There – how about that?
Maybe because they mislead and lie to people about their association with CoS?
If they are doing so much good in this world – wouldn’t they want to let people know who they are associated with – wouldn’t it be advantageous to show people that the CoS is doing good things?
It’s ok – you don’t have to answer – because we all know the answer already. The last thing ANYONE wants to be associated with is the CoS – because they all know the real truth about it and its front groups etc.
Good things? Narconon is responsible in part for my brother’s death. Their “rehab” failed because it’s just a combination of the communications course of Scientology and LRH’s junk science Purification Rundown. Utter B.S. Had we known Narconon was run by Scientology, we would have sent him to a reputable program like Betty Ford or Hazelden. Narconon took away his last chance. Fuck Narconon and everyone associated with it.
Freewinds quarantined because of measles outbreak?!
Mr. Miscavige, get your little ass down there to put it right. This is an institutional embarrassment that can only be rectified by your able bitch-slapping hand.
When I learned the measles outbreak was tracked to a Sea Ogre being the source of the outbreak I immediately felt so bad for her ( I believe it was a female). Knowing she would be shipped off to the RPF, if not The Hole, for MANY years. Her crime? Bring Black PR not only to Scamology, but to Little Mans’ pride and joy The Fleecewinds.
“The incomparable Guardian’s Office…”
That is certainly true LOL. After all, what other religion has an intelligence and dirty tricks bureau baked right into its very scripture? Oh, sure, they call the GO “OSA” now, but it’s the same thing.
Gus, I noticed that about the GO too. In 1972 they were heroes, then they got caught infiltrating the government to save his sorry butt and under the bus they go. Even his wife!
Also, in the 70s Narconon was just the Training Routines. No Purification Rundown. No medical detox.
Hard core addicts doing cold turkey withdrawal by staring at each other for hours. Flunk, you puked!
At least today they have some kind of sauna program. If you’re not really paying attention you could think it was sort of non-religious. But then look at a few of the details. For example, how do you know when you are done with the Purification Rundown? Blood tests? Biopsies of fatty tissues? No. you are done when you can say that you “feel better” about it and make that meter needle float! About as non-religious as snake handling and anointing with oil.
Nonsense Bruce, I have a friend who worked for Narconon Berlin and he delivered Drug Rundowns (in the 70s) and other auditing to the addicts and the Berlin local authority even paid for the auditing.
As to the EP of the Purif, it’s all stated in the HCOBs which you might care to read before offering your opinion.
Well, Fool, since the body doesn’t store EM radiation nor does its fat store and release toxins like El Con Retard claimed, the stated “EP” is irrelevant.
The cult tries to obfuscate the truth when confronted, and would not tell a “never in” that Scientology is directly connected to these front groups. They take advantage of sick people because it’s a source of money. They don’t care about treatment- all they want is insurance money and some altered statistics to promote to the members who give donations to the front groups thinking they are helping. Their pumping up of stats is SOP. Any statistic can be made to show what they want it to because they don’t disclose how the numbers were created (if they count “success” as someone who is drug free, all they need to do is count the people who are currently in lockdown and have no access to drugs- voila! “drug free”)
They are scum bags who use people at their lowest point.
I just found out that freewinds is being quarantined due to a measles outbreak! Karma is a bitch. I wonder how they are explaining how this was “pulled in” on an expensive cruise to raise status?? Anyone who knows me on twitter knows that I am passionate about anti-vaxxers and Scientology. It’s like my two biggest causes have collided into one glorious tweetable smorgasbord. I don’t even know what to do I’m so giddy.
Kat
Kat,
I was waiting to see if you commented on the Plaguewinds Measle Cruise! I wouldn’t wish the potential harm on anyone and truly hope no children have been exposed by this (though I’m sure they will after the quarantine since they sailed out of the last port and are scheduled to leave tomorrow, despite recommendations not to)!
But as a mother who’s daughter caught Pertussis (whooping cough) at 9mos old due to an outbreak amongst unvaccinated kids in our neighborhood, as she’d not yet had her 2nd booster… I have STRONG feelings about that stance to not vaccinate altogether. If someone feels “overvaccination” is an issue (which many spout) then it’s simple, after their 1st booster, get their titre done and only do additional boosters behind that if they don’t show immunity. I had to do that w/my eldest, as he reacted to the old DTP shots, so we got him the 1st 2 so he was safe, then waited a year until the DTaP (acellular version of Pertussis for those not familiar) was available here, as it had been in Europe and he was fine – no more reaction.
Preaching to the choir – that’s more for lurkers that may read… but yes, I had a strong suspicion you felt similarly passionate about it and was glad to read your feedback!
Again – not wishing measles on anyone, but the ignorant since disproven theories on not vaccinating definitely leave me feeling a sense of Shadenfreude even if I feel a teensy bit bad for it!
I had some exposure to the whole ‘pertussis vaccine is the cause of all mankind’s ills’ back in the 90s when I worked for a law firm that defended one of the makers of the vaccine (Big Pharma).
Actually we represented the insurance company that insured Big Pharma, so maybe that makes me PTS instead of full out SP.
Anyway, dozens of experts, millions of dollars on studies and many years later no one could prove any correlation between the vaccine and autism or anything else.
And it seems every few years a new vaccine is under attack. Never mind the evidence of illnesses and deaths prevented by vaccines.
I imagine it’s never going to stop.
Nonsense, again of course. Narconon was in existence decades before the idea of donating anything to anyone was even mooted. So again your little assumed and negative-sounding theory is shown to be the balderdash that it is. But no doubt many here will nod their heads and agree with your nonsense.
Why anyone would want to criticize people like the Narconon staff who are operating stalwartly in probably the most difficult scenario one could conceive of is beyond me! But aha! I have just had yet another cognition! I am not a psychologist who is trying her damndest to shoot anything worthwhile down in flames!
Ah, an example of 100% standard Hubbard technology. “lie and they will come.”
How’s that working out for you Davy? Feel a stroke and an urge for seclusion hiding in a motor home yet? A Colombian jungle might be a good place to go loose yourself, they love you there for stopping all that crime.
“Non secular”. I suspect a malapropism. The clam who wrote the blurb probably the term ‘non sequitor’ on his/her brain. Or, simply did not know the definition of ‘secular’.
Word clear: fail.
From the once secret 1993 Closing Agreement:
” The social benefit and other public benefit entities discussed at pages 1-28 through 1-42 of the June submission along with all subsidiaries, subordinate chapters, subordinate organizations, or sublicensees thereof (e.g., organizations that are permitted to use particular names, copyrights, service marks, and/or technologies) are Scientology-related entities.
Thus, for example,
Citizens Commission on Human Rights,
National Commission on Law Enforcement and Social Justice,
Scientology Defense Fund Trust,
Association for the Better Living and Education,
Applied Scholastics Incorporated,
==> Narconon International, <==
The Way to Happiness Foundation,
and the Foundation for Religious Freedom are Scientology-related entities.
Pages 1-28 through 1-42 are attached as Exhibit VIII-2 to this Agreement."
Now why would narCONon be included in the 'Closing Agreement' between $cientology and the IRS if it really was "secular", and not part of $cientology??
Oh, forgot to include the link to the Fox Business story where Joy Villa is apparently being looked to by Fox Business as some sort of Hollywood pundit re the Jussie Smollett situation. Don’t Maria Bartiromo’s staffers vet the people they bring on the air?
https://www.foxbusiness.com/media/joy-villa-blacklist-jussie-smollett-entertainment-industry
There are also Scientology’s own creepy graphics showing the “central org” sort of like an octopus with tentacles reaching out to each of the front groups – including Narconon:
https://whyweprotest.net/attachments/narcr-jpg.128214/
https://whyweprotest.net/attachments/planetaryclearing-jpg.128215/
They couldn’t make it any clearer how they really view Narconon – fortunately, in their hubris, or their desperation to portray themselves to their membership as actually doing something, they’ve exposed themselves and revealed their agenda.
The first one comes from a comment about three-quarters of the way down this thread at WWP, which also has some other good evidence:
https://whyweprotest.net/threads/proof-that-narconon-is-religious-and-not-secular.66134/
The second one, along with the first, is a little ways down on this page:
https://whyweprotest.net/threads/%E2%80%98simpsons%E2%80%99-actress-stirs-up-springfield-with-schools-program-linked-to-scientology.88133/page-5
p.s. Mike, I think those are really damning graphics that haven’t been given the wide circulation they deserve – a version of the first one with a hand-drawn circle around one of the front groups, but without the legend to make it clear which is which, has show up on just a couple of websites. I hope you can either add these to the piece, or save them for the future and feature them in another piece about Narconon and front groups.
Also, here’s a direct scan of that last SO Flag Bureaux Data Letter:
https://whyweprotest.net/attachments/n4x0n-gif.186373/
from this WWP thread:
https://whyweprotest.net/threads/lrh-dox-scientology-guardians-office-was-in-charge-of-narconon-worldwide.104572/
p.s. The second, more contemporary-looking “Central Org” octopus-like graphic under the banner “PLANETARY CLEARING” has not show up anyplace other than WWP, that I can find – I just happened to run across it while looking for an image of the other one, that I could link to. I find it frustrating that as with some similar material, such graphic evidence of the CofS’ scheming and duplicity, hasn’t gotten wider circulation – even a quick glance shows incontrovertibly what they’re really up to, with the arrows indicating how they intend to use front groups to push Scientology out into the world.
wonderful stuff.
thanks for all of this.
Scamology was built on lies by a lying sociopath. Now run by psychotic liars.
Like shooting fish in a barrel, Mike. Scientology and the truth cannot co-exist.
The Delphian school aka Delphi, and other scientology schools, Clearwater Academy, Washburn etc., all say the same thing, that they are secular, no religious affiliation, but enroll your kid and see what happens.
TooDangerous, You’re right about that. Delphi Academy, Renaissance Academy, Clearwater Academy and many others ARE 100% Scn based, meaning they use Scn study tech, ethics tech, and refer kids for Scn auditing, and teach The Way To Happiness which is Scn, and pass out the booklets too. They have Sea Org recruiters on their campus recruiting all the time. People like former Delphi teacher Shel Stith or her sister Missy Schleigh and/or Marci Sargeant (al lthree are sisters and I cant’ remember which one worked at Delphi), but I do know she helped push kids to join the SO and admitted that her stat that she keeps and is the most proud of is number of Delphi kids she got into the SO. Yet if you ask any of these school administrators, they will tell you that NO, it is NOT Scn, and it is secular, and yada yada yada. They got a lot of Asian kids in because their parents believed the lie that Scn wasn’t taught there, and they thought their kids would get a better education there than in public school. That is debateable. Even counting the Asian kids, it was at least 80 to 20 percent Scn to non Scn ratio at Renaissance Academy, same for Delphi
There’s also this.
https://youtu.be/7ogdV7uXrKA
Dang! Denise sounds like she’s swallowed something toxic.
Is this a guy in drag? :She” looks awful!
I think her brother strangled her as a child many times.
They’re twins, as I understand. What a mean-girl mess this one is. No doubt paid by the cult to keep her mouth shut. I recall reading on Tony’s that she’s a drug addict. I wonder how the Still Ins would react if they knew their donations were going up COB’s sister’s nose? She looks like a heroin snorter sleeping rough.
All the “secular” programs of Scientology have a function of showing cult members how effective and altruistic the Cherch is. Mike, your use of the term “front group” is the appropriate term. Now adays the only people who are fooled by these social betterment programs are those who are still members of the corrupt cult. Thank you for calling them out once again.
So again a matter of money, the purpose was for the church to ‘save’ money by having the government to pay for it. Tsk…tsk…
The LRH issue has another lie: the ONLY successful drug rehab program…and being recognized as such (in 1972?)
Don’t think so..
It always comes down to money with the cult of Scn. On the one hand, in many LRH references, he talks about how the government is not to be trusted and to not bring the govt or the law in on anything Scn related and to never turn in another Scn to the law for crimes. See Mike R’s article a day or two ago on this for more details. So on the one hand they hate the government, yet on the other they take money and are fed from their hands with free abortions at the govt abortion clinics, food stamps, and other govt programs they take advantage of. Oh and let’s not forget about the old SO members who no longer have family they can be farmed out to when they are too old to work in the SO. Those get farmed out to Medicaide and Medi-Cal state run free old folks homes. There is one right near the LA Org as a matter of fact.
And Narconon and other of their front groups don’t dare mention their connection with Scn because they are trying to get government grants (money) to fund their front groups. They eat from the hand that they say is bad and commit fraud on that same government hand.
Wellfare cheats spouting conservative rhetoric. That’s scientology in a nutshell.
It is totally ok to lie, cheat and steal from any government because it is for the “Greater Good.”
Cindy. You are spot on with all you said. The cult natters about the government but hits on it for help all the time.
I know of a sea ogre couple who got pregnant, routed out and moved to another state and got all their medical costs paid by the government. Sure they had no money but the father’s parents were rich and could have easily taken on the burden. But no! The fuckers sucked on the “government (public) teat”. The same government the cult despises so thoroughly. DESPICABLE!
The Church of Lies and Deceit.
That’s why an inexperienced interviewer of a celebrity scientologist (or any scientologist) will go down in flames – because the interviewer can’t spot the deceit or lies.
Here’s an example: When I was first declared a Suppressive Person and my son disconnected from me, his aunt and uncle went out to lunch with him and were talking to him about working it out with us (his mom and dad) to agree to just not talk about scientology and us allow him (our son) to be in it without bringing it up when we get together. Our son said he would check on that. (This is basically why our son has ultimately disconnected from ALL of his family members who aren’t in the church of scientology. It’s just too hard to honestly respond when something like this comes up.) Our son was LYING and he knew it. There was no way the church would allow this. (One has to be UTR and not get “declared” to continue to have a relationship with a loved one.) His aunt and uncle told him how much we loved him and he said he loved us too. Sweet huh? This is scientology’s bullshit “Good Roads and Fair Weather” tactics. Deceit and Lies.
The Church of Deceit and Lies. PERIOD.
They still use that, ‘Good Roads and Fair Weather’ crap? In Scientology, good roads & fair weather mean NOTHING! Just the same old shit.
Right. Deceit and Lies.
Call me cynical, but I would bet that these children who’ve obeyed the cherch and disconnected from their parents are secure in the belief that, if ever they would hold out a hoop to their parents, and commanded them to JUMP, said parents would, out of base and craven gratitude for being communicated to, would say, humbly and meekly, “How high?”.
Now, what I’m going to advise is controversial, and I apologize in advance if it offends any heartbroken parents who are the victims of their children’s disconnection, because my intention is to help, not hurt those who have already been cruelly hurt.
These kids, these brainwashed, bot kids, who are so arrogant, so smug, so 100% percent rock solid sure that they are so 100% right, so OK with lying, with their fake ARC – my theory is: set these little bastards right on their ear. (And, yes, I admit that they utterly infuriate me. Don’t ask me why; their not my kids!)
Here’s the advice. Get their attention.
HOW?
With money. LOSS OF.
Here’s what I would do, to play with their so-called minds:
Announce to them publicly, via this blog, or in a letter to them (which of course will be read by the cult before they get it) the following:
“Dear ___________,
It has been ____________ years since we’ve spoken. I (we, your father and I) understand completely that you want nothing to do with me (us) anymore and that this decision is irrevocable. I/we don’t agree and this has caused us much sadness, much grief, but then, time as passed and we have finally come to the point of full acceptance of your decision. I now agree that you are no longer my son/daughter; I am no longer your mother/father. Accordingly, all pictures/photos of you have been destroyed. Any keepsakes in our possession will be given to charity or thrown away. My/our will(s) has/have been changed to reflect this mutually agreed permanent estrangement. The new will(s) clearly stipulate that you are no longer my/our heir and as such, with no claim whatsoever to any of my/our property or assets in the event of my/our death. In brief, please know that, finally, in agreement with your needs, and in accordance with the dictates of your religious faith, we now consider our selves, on every dynamic, no longer your parents, nor, do we, on any dynamic, consider you any longer, and for the duration of my/our lives and your life, our son/daughter. As to the new will, you’ll be sent a copy within a short time.
(Name), you have fully disconnected from me/us, and now, in acknowledgement of our heretofore fruitless efforts to reconnect with you, I/we (your name(s)) with this letter, do fully and finally and for the duration of our lifetimes, disconnect from you.
With much ARC and with sincere postulates for your success in all of your future endeavors on all dynamics,
____________________________________
Name(s)
This is just my off the cuff unedited wording. Reword it to convey this concept of your at long last finally agreeing about the inevitability of the disconnection and making it PERMANENT and official on ALL dynamics.
Now, here’s the HARD PART:
MEAN it.
You have to MEAN IT.
This is NOT a bluff!!!!
You must DO EXACTLY what you say you are going to do.
ALL of it.
Destroy the photos, letters, give away the memorabilia.
CHANGE YOUR WILL and make it AIRTIGHT so that he/she/they inherit NOTHING.
Return the flow!
They wiped you out of their lives?
You wipe THEM out of your lives!
They’ll understand this.
They won’t like it.
But they’ll GET it. Big time.
Here’s what I think:
These kids are smugly basking in the security of knowing that at any time they can lift their little finger and you’ll come crawling back, cravenly grateful for ANY crumbs of attention they’re prepared to give you. THEY CAN TAKE THEIR SWEET TIME because YOU will ALWAY, always, always be there.
“Poor old, lonely Mom. longing for me. Poor old desperate Dad, missing me so much. Oh well, when it suits me, or, when they’re sick enough so that they’re ready to drop their bodies, I can always get back in touch so that they leave me all their money and land, i can always pick up the phone, secure my inheritance, and let them die happy.”
People, you suffering, disconnected from Moms and Dads,
TAKE THIS OPTION AWAY from your kids.
Think about it. Think long and hard about it.
What do you have to lose, that you haven’t already lost?
And, by the way, I fully acknowledge how easy it is to advise that you play hardball with them. (And by the way, it cannot be overstressed, this IS hardball. This is NOT some coy bluff. )
They had the guts to play hardball with you, didn’t they?
Well, what they’ve dished out, you dish right back, and see if it doesn’t rock their world.
And if it doesn’t rock their world, then they didn’t give a shit about you anyway, so what do you have to lose?
See, I told you it was controversial.
Its easy for me to be objective. They’re not MY children.
I get it.
Think about it, anyway. That’s all I would ask.
I’m on your side.
Aqua, I disagree about burning bridges with members of high control groups or cults. And I’m fairly certain that experts in the field would counsel a certain amount of tough love, but still keeping the door open.
However, when it comes to money, I agree that Scientology members ought to be cut out of inheritances, because any money is likely to go to Scientology including funding its abuses, anyway. The one exception might be for those families in the position to set up some sort of trust to provide for essential expenses if a member had no other income in their old age.
“I disagree about burning bridges with members of high control groups or cults.”
Peacemaker, in theory, i disagree with it too.
But then, these people, as individuals are extremely low toned, and low toned people work on a reverse vector.
With such people, high toned appeals to their reason, their analytical abilities, their sense of fair play and justice simply don’t work.
You’re dealing with synthetic personalities, trained from infancy, many of them, to one day, if and when necessary – meaning if and/or when told to do so by their church – disconnect. To disconnect from ANYONE.
Now, I KNOW that what you said is the right tack to take for the long view because unnderneath the artificial personality IS the being. And you want to address THE BEING and not the artificial, synthetic personality. I get that.
Hmmm…! For me this is an extremely interesting “argument” – I put that in quotes because we’re not actually arguing – for a number of reasons.
When people have been trained from infancy to automatically obey, to be low toned, unthinking, bliindly obedient robots…on the other hand, this isn’t who they ARE…but at the same time, the synthetic personality is who they THINK they are, and its the personality they WANT to be and aspire to be….wow.
How do you talk to people who don’t know who they are?
Everything decent in me wants to go with what YOU say, because, in my heart, I know its the right way, the correct way.
My experience dealing with religious fanatics tells me it never works, and that all these people pay attention to is a kind of crude, low-level survival threat, which is why I advocated telling them they’re cut off in every way (they know they deserve this) and then letting THEM crawl back for whatever reasons they crawl back – and they WILL crawl back, eventually – for whatever their reason for doing so, which will, in all likelihood, be MONEY. Or, a roof over their head.
Peacemaker, I’m not a cynic by nature 🙂
And this is all opinion on my part and I’m not saying it would be workable or even applicable in every instance.
I would just want to do something that actually works.
And by the way, Peacemaker, I don’t advocate disconnection from them in an angry, crude, bitter or resentful way. No! No tears, no anger, no blame, no recriminations.
Instead:
Polite, calm, firm, friendly, respectful.
Something like “Thank you for sharing your ideas and convictions with me. As you know I don’t agree with them, but on the other hand I respect them and your right to hold these views, as I respect you. Therefore I am in agreement that it would be best for all concerned if the two of us had no further contact with one another. Perhaps this will change at some point in the future but for now I agree that total disconnection on both sides is best.”
This is what I would have a parent say to their child. I acknowledge that I left out what I advised previously, i.e., “There’s the door, slam it on your way out.”
THAT was just my sarcastic mouth when I’m pissed off. I’ve since calmed down and herewith advise AGAINST saying that as its unnecessarily insulting and creating of antagonism. That, and the remark about “being embarrassed” for the child. That’s unnecessarily insulting too.
Your thoughts?
Aqua, I might say that cutting ties is more appropriate than burning bridges, to categorize it roughly. Maybe not destroy all reminders of someone, but box them up and put them away.
I think it depends on the situation, also. If someone got involved with a group that the family wasn’t in, then I’d say the responsibility can be put on them to restore their family relationships, not for the family to do anything. In the case of a family whose members left the group, then it’s trickier, other than perhaps to try to point out that there’s still a responsibility for maintaining communication and relationships, and respecting beliefs – which presumably includes the absence of belief – that even Hubbard ostensibly honored.
Again, I’d want to know what someone experienced in dealing with these situations suggest as most effective. If you really want to know, you could try writing Steve Hassan – I’d love to see him do a piece on the topic, as there’s not much that I can readily find on his website, and I don’t have my copy of his latest book to go looking through right now.
Yea, washed out roads and no end to the deluge.
Mary I tried that same argument on one of my kids when they disconnected. Let’s agree not to talk about Scn and just do things we have in common that don’t include the church, and I won’t say bad things about the church or stop you from doing it yourself. Their answer was to turn it on me and say, “the door is always open” meaning if I recant and do A to E Steps, I might be able to come back and have a relationship with them.
Cindy,
For what it’s worth I was made to disconnect from my mom. I was told that being connected to her was why I was making no gains. I am embarrassed to confess that I fell for this and did cut all comm with her. Sadly it took a few years for me to realize this was not what was responsible for no results and I finally wised up. No results were coming ever because the shit didn’t work at all.. I had to confront the truth and leave. I took care of my mom the rest of her life and am so, so proud I wised up. Hope your kid also sees the light soon.
Glenn
Glen, Nice ending to what could have been so horrible. I imagine your mom was elated to have you back in her life. There is nothing like the love between mother and child.
Glenn, what a wonderful thing that you finally saw the light and got the correct WHO, which was not your mother and you spent the rest of the time trying to make up the damage done. I’m sure she is so happy and grateful for that. YOu should be proud of yourself, and I see you are. So am I. Thanks for sharing that.
I would not have given this satanic cult one moment of peace if that happened to me.
Offering a relationship with them as the carrot and your possible reward for betraying your own integrity.
Forget about love and devotion and loyalty to a PARENT – this is EXTREMELY disgusting and disrespectful behavior to a PERSON.
I can think of a number of responses to their base, tawdry, emotional extortion attempt, but they’re all unprintable.
Here’s something that won’t get my post deleted by Mike:
“Thank you for your offer, but as much as I love you, I am a person in my own right and my integrity to myself is not negotiable. It is regrettable that you see fit to offer to continue to love me in exchange for my betraying my own integrity. It is regrettable that you think its OK to use your professed love and devotion to me as a bargaining chip in this fashion. I am embarrassed for you because your behavior and speech degrades you far more than it does me. But so be it. You have no respect for me. I see that. I accept that you are going to erase me from your life. So be it. Goodbye. All the best to you. There is the door; please make sure to slam it on your way out.”
Aqua, I’d also point out that even Hubbard wrote “That all men have inalienable rights to think freely, to talk freely, to write freely their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others.” in The Creed of a Scientologist.
He also wrote that “That all men have inalienable rights to their own religious practices and their performance.” – which presumably includes not believing, or adhering to a traditional religion, or even independent Scientology.
And of course he finished it off with “no agency less than God has the power to suspend or set aside these rights, overtly or covertly” – though Scientology covertly so doing, apparently has the blessing of their God, Hubbard.
I don’t know that pointing out such things would necessarily have an immediate effect on a true believer under pressure from the organization, but it might sow the seeds of doubt to point out to them that just adhering to the supposed stated principles should resolve the impasse.
I like what you wrote, though I think that appealing to shared higher ideals is a better position, and more likely to be effective, than bordering on accusation – I actually know that is the best practice approach to take in other sorts of negotiations.
Peacemaker,
Quoting “The Creed Of A Scientologist” IS the perfect response. Perfect.
I would include that in my agreement to the child to let him or her go.
All communicated in a kindly but firm and positive tone of voice.
Forget Scientology even, my experience, time and again, in life has been that when people want to leave you, really leave you, not just some argument or temporary blow up with hot words, but when they REALLY mean it and want to drop you, you MUST let them go.
Graciously, with dignity in tact, with self respect, you let them know that is ok for them to go.
Guess what?
When you do that – THEY COME BACK!
EVERY time.
This is my experience and I live by it.
NEVER beg or plead or cajole or argue with someone who’s mind (such as it may be) is made up to leave you.
When you’re face to face with such a person, CONTROL YOURSELF. Look from THEIR viewpoint. They WANT to leave you. Let them. Don’t argue.
That’s making them WRONG.
You don’t really KNOW what’s going on with them. They could be saying its one thing when its really another thing that’s the real issue. And they don’t WANT to talk about it. They want to LEAVE. So you let them. Don’t be irritating. Don’t obstruct. Let them.
Did anyone ever stop YOU from leaving when you wanted to?
NEVER lower yourself in front of ANYONE no matter WHO it is.
There has to be RESPECT.
There may not be love, right then. But NEVER allow someone to lose respect for you.
They come back if you do this.
Might take a while, but they come back.
They stay away if you don’t.
That’s been my own personal, hard won experience, for whatever its worth!
You’re right, Peacemaker. What I wrote was FAR too accusatory in tone and as such, ill advised.
The basic concept of telling the person its ok for them to go if they want to can be communicated with no unworkable, gratuitous make wrong of the person.
They want to leave? Make them right!
That will rock their world!
ESPECIALLY if you’re calm, kindly, friendly.
Actually, its essential that you DO communicate this way because it will knock them for a loop.
Not only have their cult masters prepped them to expect and handle anger, bitterness, grief and tears, these “kids” also KNOW how poor old Mom and Dad live for their love.
And take yourself away as an option for them, Mom and Dad,sitting around, wishing, hoping, crying, for them to come back. Let them guess about that. If you let them go calmly they WILL wonder and guess. “Why is she taking this so calmly? Did Mom and Dad really ever love me? If they did, why weren’t they hysterical? What’s Dad up to? Does he even still THINK about me? Was I THAT forgettable?”
Leave them in mystery. Whatever YOUR real intentions, let THEM wonder.
Let the concept SINK IN that they don’t necessarily have “an infinity of time” to get back in comm. Mom and Dad just might have MOVED ON! Or maybe they’re in the process of moving on right now. Or maybe…or perhaps….
Stick their attention.
Why should they think about you and miss you when they KNOW that you’re ALWAYS always always and forever and ever thinking about THEM.
The cult knows this very well, too, and uses it against you.
One last thing: somehow, someway get across to your kids that you are HAPPY and BUSY.
No matter how miserable you are, no matter how lonely and empty your lives are without them DO NOT LET THEM KNOW.
They’re NOT going to come back to you out of sorrow for you suffering, you know!
If they had any compassion in them they wouldn’t have left you in the first place.
So somehow, someway, get the concept across to them that you have a busy, happy, fulfilled life. You loved them dearly and would have enjoyed them being PART OF your life but they chose not to be , and besides, they were not EVERYTHING in your life anyway.
You think that’s cruel? Unloving?
It isn’t.
Because THIS is how THEY think – about YOU.
YOU are not their whole life either.
When YOU were their age, were YOUR parents YOUR whole life?
They’ll relate.
Busy, happy, filled with interesting activities and plans. How nice if they were part of it!
That’s the concept.
After unceremoniously dumping you, they’ll respect you for this.
On your side,
Aqua
Yea, Cindy, I got that too. It’s amazing how it’s never okay not to be a scientologist any more. One has to A. recant to E. Whatever that is. I have answered that I could never finish A. Because I cannot recant what I believe to be true. and furthermore, I’m done with the church of scientology so why would I want to go through their stupid rituals any more.
Anyway, Cindy, best of luck to you. I hope one day our children wise up and realize what they are giving up.
Me too, Mary Kahn, me too.
Mike said, “It is just another of the lies that scientology and its front groups foists off on the world, hoping they will not be called out.”
I feel the need to attempt to correct this statement. I do not think they hope they will not be called out. I would guess they have every reason to believe they will be called out. If there is something for which they can hope, I would suggest it would be that they do not appear to be completely idiotic in their responses to these challenges.
Lately, I am seeing more and more people who appear to have acquired the skills to seriously embarrass these people after calling them out. I would doubt these people have any hope at all that they will be able to avoid bringing shame and disrepute onto their organization. I cannot imagine any way at all they figure they will be able to avoid such an anticipated result to these kinds of conversations.
Hello Mike. Some time ago, I recall you were seeking out people who had experience creating bots (robots) and who could help others to learn how to create them.
It’s been a long time. But I have had a great deal of experience creating bots and I feel confident that I could help others learn how to acquire those skills.
One big word of warning however. This is not a simple skill. It requires an extremely serious and time-consuming commitment to spending many, many hours every day – learning how to perform this activity. It’s definitely not something that is easy to learn. It’s something you can expect will take over the major part of your life for a very long time. The commitment required to learn how to create bots is extremely serious and it’s not something anyone can approach with a light hearted atttitude.
For one thing, it is based on the skill of computer programming. Before you can master the ability to create bots, you really need to master the skill of creating computer software (computer programs).
The people who are the best at creating bots spend almost all of their lives doing very little else besides writing bots and learning how to write them – based on an extremely serious commitment to spend many hours every day working with bots. It’s not something at which people can succeed based on a few hours per day. Sad to say, it really requires a major life commitment to learn how to do this.
I’m really not exaggerating. I would hate to put out the notion this is something people can learn how to do in just a few hours. There are many tutorials for creating bots that begin by promising you can learn how to acquire this skill quickly and easily. But you can only create the most simplistic bots after spending a small amount of time learning about creating bots. Almost any serious bots people want to create, will require a huge (even “crushing”) effort to learn how to create them and I feel it’s only fair to warn people they will be required to spend a huge amount of time and effort learning how to perform this skill before they ever are able to create bots that do anything more than just the most simplistic activities. So, you should consider this to be a very serious warning. I can help you learn how to create bots. But, it will require a huge amount of time and effort in order to learn how to acquire this technique.
No, I am not looking to create bots.
But I have often commented on scientology’s employment of clickfarms and bots
OK Mike. Thank you for setting me straight. I’m glad to learn that I was mistaken because it’s highly doubtful that most anyone who wants to get involved with creating bots have any idea what a huge amount of time and energy will be required.
I AM NOT A ROBOT
I AM NOT A ROBOT
I AM NOT A ROBOT
I AM NOT A ROBOT
I AM NOT A ROBOT..BOT …BOT…BOT….BOT…BOT….@$#%^##^%..crash…bing…boing…wwwhhirrrrr
Stop it, BL. You’re scaring me.
You are scared? Hmmm …. I’m strangely aroused.
Maybe they meant nonsectarian. Or maybe they wanted it so confusing that no one could pin them to any statement of any kind.
It’s amazing that an organization that claims to have completely solved all issues with study seems to have so many illiterate and semi-literate people – not just the person who wrote this (and so many other things), but that person’s senior, and whoever is the quality control person who is supposed to proof all this stuff (for crying out loud, they have entire department, on par with production, promotion, or executive, dedicated entirely to quality). Maybe the super-literate status has not been updated to Golden Age level – you know, it’s all those misplaced semicolons. Yeah, that’s it, that’s the ticket.