The hits just keep on coming.
From the LA Times:
This is the FilmRise webpage:
And it is also available on Vimeo:
And if you want to do it the old-school way, as of today, you can buy the DVD on Amazon for $16.99.
So anyone who has not been able to see the film on HBO or in a local theater can now order it from Amazon or watch it as a streaming video.
Miscavige’s annus horribilis is just not getting any better.
Next up: Louis Theroux’s My Scientology Movie at the London Film Festival on October 14.
Followed by Leah Remini’s 20/20 ABC TV interview on 30 October and release of her book Troublemaker on 3 November.
It sucks to be Miscavige.
All this and more that has not yet been disclosed.
And then the Academy Award nominations to start out the New Year with a bang (Jan 14). 2016 will be the Golden Age of Annus Horribilis II.
Thanks, dear Roger ; most kind.
I would really luv to see Going Clear nominated as best documentary and Tom Cruz nominated as best actor or MI for best film. Cruz would be forced to take a public stand.
– I don’t honestly know what I’m talking about here, but, I’m willing to bet a fat dollar all of Hollywood is so pissed off to find out and see what has been happening right in their own back yard that NO WAY would they be willing to glorify or give any sort or recognition in favor of anything film-wise to the likes of Tom Cruise. Too bad for the good people who work on that particular set…
Ask the Academy:
Scientology and Hollywood do not mix.
I am new to this blog, and I’m not sure how to Reply specifically to a comment, but I wanted to address this idea from the thread above:
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marildi says
October 7, 2015 at 12:54 am
Well expressed comment, H.J. But tell me this – other than those of us who already know the difference, do you think the viewers of Going Clear would differentiate the abuses of the church from Scientology as a philosophy and practice? Personally, I think not only will they equate the two but the film itself seemed to do so, if only because of not addressing this point.
————————–
I had no preconceived notions about Scientology before watching “Going Clear” on HBO. I knew it receives its share of criticism but since I had no direct experience with it, I came to the documentary with an open mind.
I can most definitely differentiate between the abuses of the leadership of the church from the general philosophy and practice. I don’t think the good aspects of the religion outweigh the destructive acts of the church, however, and I do hope a new leadership takes over that makes major changes in its management practices, policies toward the press and former members, and the whole disconnection nightmare.
At the same time, if I were a practicing Scientologist, I would most likely be offended as there are many sections in the film that are provocative. The distorted images and sounds used around LRH are inflammatory, as are the descriptions of his time in the navy during WWII. No one wants to be judged on their dumbest mistakes, like firing on a log at sea.
So my final analysis is that while it has inflammatory points, the documentary’s stories of the former members and of Larry Wright are as true and compelling as they can get.
And I have to say, “Going Clear” is one of the most beautifully-crafted documentaries in history. The vignettes from each person, layered on top of a history of the church, are woven together to create a dazzling tapestry of truth, regret, and growth. It’s The sound in particular is complex and effective — from the tones and accents of the participants to the underlying music, it’s a gorgeous sound from beginning to end.
Thank you, MR., for your participation, your blog, and all your efforts.
Nice post frank, I’m new to posting as well! Welcome and great post to get you started, I just said something similar to Marildi so you are not alone! 😉
Frank, thanks for the great reply. I thought what you wrote was an incisive review of the film – and beautifully written too
This part was especially insightful: “…there are many sections in the film that are provocative. The distorted images and sounds used around LRH are inflammatory, as are the descriptions of his time in the navy during WWII. No one wants to be judged on their dumbest mistakes, like firing on a log at sea.”
And the I agree with you on the following: “So my final analysis is that while it has inflammatory points, the documentary’s stories of the former members and of Larry Wright are as true and compelling as they can get.”
.
As for how to reply to a comment, some of them have a reply button beneath the post, and if you click on it the reply box will be just below or below any other replies to it (scroll down to find it). If there is no reply button under the comment, you can use the reply button on the bottom of the email notification of that comment (that is, if you’ve requested email notifications). If you have no email notification for a particular comment, you can go to the nearest reply button above (before) it. In that case, you might want to include the name of the poster you’re replying to because it won’t show who that is on the email notifications to other posters – it will indicate (incorrectly) that it was a reply to the post whose reply button you used.
Cheers. 🙂
What, in your opinion was inflammatory about the WWII bits? I’ll have to watch again, but was it not just a recitation of his service record? It may not be a kindness, but that is the official record (which massively differs from what scientologists are told about his service).
Thank you, everyone, for the kind welcome.
Gtsix, I’m sure there wasn’t much time to devote to LRH’s military career. With so little time, I think the filmmaker could have been more fair, indicating something along the lines of, “LRH served in the navy from 1940-1950 and did not have an especially distinguished career. In fact, more than once he made significant errors of judgment,” and refer the misfiring incidents. Certainly LRH was competent some of the time during his service.
At the same time, however, I don’t think “Going Clear” was trying to be unbiased. I think its mission was to highlight the compelling stories of former high-level members and perhaps even effect change in management practices and policies by bringing these stories to light.
I’m ready for a sequel!
Frank, Hubbard was an habitual liar. There’s no need to soft peddle it in the name of being polite. He was a scoundrel. It was necessary to reveal his military screw-ups because he painted himself as a hero who was wounded in battle and that falsehood became the central theme of his OFFICIAL autobiography. It was outrageous of him to misrepresent himself like that for the purpose of establishing not just credibility but adoration.
Roger, as a professional with integrity Alex Gibney would not have included Hubbard’s wartime records if he had come across Margaret Lake’s thoroughly documented research on the subject – including photocopy evidence. At the end of her paper, she sums it up as follows:
———————————–
CONCLUSIONS
Hubbard’s Navy service record (as today supplied by the National Personnel Records Center [NPRC] of the the National Archives) is demonstrably incomplete, and in certain cases also provides false and inaccurate information with regard to Hubbard’s actual activities during World War II. This is especially true for the South Pacific period, during which he was a Naval intelligence officer and also attached to the US Army. In all likelihood, most of these incomplete and inaccurate records are due to administrative oversight and error. There may have also been intelligence-related activites which affected certain documents. And some records may have been lost in the 1973 NPRC fire of Army personnel records.
If one relies solely on Hubbard’s service record from the NPRC to understand Hubbard’s military career in the Navy (as most earlier Hubbard researchers and biographers appear to have done), one will be left with an inaccurate and incomplete picture of Hubbard’s World War II years. One must look into the military, travel and other records of the National Archives (as well as other reliable sources) in order to get a more complete and accurate picture of Hubbard’s Navy service. This is especially true as it pertains to accurately answering the questions surrounding the South Pacific period, i.e. the truth behind whether Hubbard was flown home in the Spring of 1942, whether he was injured, and whether he saw combat.
When more extensive research was conducted into these areas, it was found that Hubbard was in fact flown home from the South Pacific (as he had claimed), did in fact sustain injuries while in the South Pacific (including being “blinded” by something which physically damaged his eyes), and was sent into an area where he may have seen combat. The injuries, combined with a later duodenal ulcer, left Hubbard in a debilitated condition after the war. As a result, the Veteran’s Administration considered him 40% disabled, after World War II, after conducting physical exams and tests.
http://scientologymyths.com/hubbardww2.htm
————————————
You are still going on about Going Clear?
Two questions for you:
1. Have you actually read Lawrence’s Wright’s book?
2. Have you read Barefaced Messiah?
Why do you think Margaret Lake is a more reliable source than either of those two gentlemen?
Marilidi,
A question that I would like to ask is why are there so many ‘anti’ Scientology books written by ex members and literally no ‘positive’ published books extolling the goodness of Scientology? Why don’t you write a book? Better yet, why don’t you make a documentary on all the positive points of Scientology and Hubbard, and let’s see how much critical acclaim it gets.
Who is Margaret Lake, and if she is such an accomplished researcher, why hasn’t another equally accomplished journalist or historian collaborated her findings? Why is she ‘the’ expert?
It is disheartening to listen to people, or read how they complain that they think ‘Going Clear’ is a bunch of lies, or not that Gibney’s work is not professional. This documentary is about the “prison of belief” and how people who were in that prison had their marriages, children, families and lives destroyed by that prison. The mainstream obviously does not agree that Gibney is unprofessional and has no integrity. But still, you are entitled to your opinion and you do not have to reiterate your reasons to me either. You may even feel equally disheartened that Hubbard is under scrutiny.
Lastly, supporting Hubbard’s “injuries” which you stated were due to “may have seen combat” is an insult to veterans who actually have been in combat, were injured, maimed, disabled, have PTSD, been POW’s,or lost their lives. Please don’t equate Hubbard to them. They don’t deserve that.
Pepper: “Who is Margaret Lake, and if she is such an accomplished researcher, why hasn’t another equally accomplished journalist or historian collaborated her findings? Why is she ‘the’ expert?”
Any researcher’s work should be judged by how well it is documented, not whether or not another journalist has researched it. I invite you to read her paper (at the link I posted) and tell me if you know of any actual research with documentation – not just hearsay – that refutes it. I would sincerely be interested.
You also wrote: “Lastly, supporting Hubbard’s ‘injuries’ which you stated were due to ‘may have seen combat’.”
That wasn’t my statement; it was Margaret’s. That whole quoted passage – between the horizontal lines – was taken from the end of her paper, under “CONCLUSIONS.”
” I invite you to read her paper (at the link I posted) and tell me if you know of any actual research with documentation – not just hearsay – that refutes it. I would sincerely be interested.”
Ok , Marildi , let’s play , shall we ?
Here is LRH on his own words :
“Blinded with injured optic nerves, and lame with physical injuries to hip and back, at the end of World War II, I faced an almost non-existent future. My Service record states: ‘This officer has no neurotic or psychotic tendencies of any kind whatsoever,’ but it also states ‘permanently disabled physically.”
“Aid so there came a further blow . . . . I was abandoned by family and friends as a supposedly hopeless cripple arid a probable burden upon them for the rest of my days. I yet worked my way back to fitness and strength in less than two years, using only what I knew and could determine about Man and his relationship to the universe. I had no one to help me; what I had to know I had to find out. And it’s quite a trick studying when you cannot see.”
“I became used to being told it was all impossible, that there was no way, no hope. Yet I came to see again and walk again, and I built an entirely new life. It is a happy life, a busy one and I hope a useful one. My only moments of sadness are those which come when bigoted men tell others all is bad and there is no route anywhere, no hope anywhere, nothing but sadness and sameness and desolation, and that every effort to help others is false. I know it is not true.” (From “My Philosophy”)
Now , let’s notice this , “Blinded with injured optic nerves, and lame with physical injuries to hip and back, at the end of World War II, I faced an almost non-existent future.”
And this , “but it also states ‘permanently disabled physically.”
And this , “I became used to being told it was all impossible, that there was no way, no hope. Yet I came to see again and walk again, and I built an entirely new life.”
So , according to LRH he was “blind” and “unable to walk” after the end of the war , and had been declared , “permanently disabled physically.”
Let’s define “blind” :
blind
(blīnd)
adj. blind•er, blind•est
1. a. Sightless.
b. Having a maximal visual acuity of the better eye, after correction by refractive lenses, of one-
tenth normal vision or less (20/200 or less on the Snellen test).
c. Of, relating to, or for sightless persons.” (From Farlex Online dic)
In the first place , according to Margaret’s OWN research LRH was diagnosed with “Conjunctivitis Actinic” ; he wasn’t ever diagnosed with blindness. In fact , he was discharged to duty after he was treated at the Mare island Naval Hospital and the Brooklyn Naval hospital. He was as they call it , “Fit for duty”.
In the second place , when he was treated in 1945 , by the end of the war when he was expecting to be relieved of duty , LRH received corrective lenses that adjusted his sight to 14/20 which means :
“14/20 vision means when you stand at 14 feet you see what normal people see at 20 feet.”
( http://www.kgbanswers.com/what-does-having-1420-vision-mean-is-it-better-to-have-a-lower-number-or-a-higher-number/4363687 )
14/20 is not blindness in any way shape or form. My own father still works on construction with less than that.
And in the third place he was never diagnosed as “unable to walk”. Here are Margaret’s own research about it from LRH’s medical records :
“This officer states that while acting as combat Intelligence officer for the Asiatic fleet he exposed his eyes to strong sunlight and has had to wear tinted glasses ever since. Strong light causes pain a tears. He also sprained his left ankle on this duty and has pain in the longitudinal arch on the left foot when walking. He has medical check-up on Mare island on his return and was discharged to duty.”
“A well _____ adult white male not acutely ill”
“5-13-42 – Routine local treatment continued . Improving rapidly.
5-15-42 – Urine normal . Ready for duty , advised to wear dark glasses for at least 10 days.”
That was written in the Brooklyn Naval Hospital.
This one was written at the Mare Island Naval hospital at CA ;
“May 11 1942 , US Naval Hospital Mare Island CA page 7 medical history :
“DIAGNOSIS : DIAGNOSIS UNDETERMINED , (Conjunctivitis Actinic )
Returned to US from tropical station about one month ago. Was in US Naval hospital , Mare island Calif. for 10 days and was treated for Catarrhal fever ,Acute. Feels that he is able to work but question arises as to his ability to use eyes continuously because of eye strain during exposure to tropical sunlight. 5-11-42 transferred to US Naval hospital , Brooklyn N.Y. for further observation and treatment.”
Please , realize that those reports does not mentions anything about “being blinded” , or being “crippled” or ”unable to walk”. As he used t do a lot , LRH was exaggerating to just make false claims about his Tech.
The fact is that he could have easily gotten better with simple physical therapy in relation to any injuries to the feet , and his eyes with the corrective lenses were able enough to see and read. But this is what he said :
“I had no one to help me; what I had to know I had to find out. And it’s quite a trick studying when you cannot see.”
Here is LRH’s medical report from 1945 right before he left active duty :
” 11-28-1945 ; Patient has returned from San Pedrox. Has some symptoms of ulcer remaining. Also has past history of non-specific prostatitis , some pain in right shoulder , right rib. Also some conjunctivitis combination, of course suggest Rgister Syndrome. However examination today show minimal redness of conjunctiva. Prostate is normal to palpation. There is no limitation of back or hips. Some limitation of outward rotation of right shoulder , pain seems to be in posterior deltoid. In other words objective findings are minimal. Subjective complaints do not disturb patient. Physically qualify for duty in US and for separation from the U.S.N.R”
“12-5-1945 ; Discharged this day to duty to proceed and report to separation center , 703 Market street , San Francisco , California. For duty pending release to inactive duty. In accordance with authority of DirDisPers-Twelve #032025 , dated Dec 1945.”
So much for being “permanently disabled physically” !!!
But LRH and the “Church of Lies” wanted us to believe that he was blind and unable to walk , and through the “magic” of DNs he fully recovered himself. My god , he is so full of shit. And this isn’t the first lie that LRH told us. He was allegedly a “Nuclear physicist” even though that the official records shows that he , not only never finished his engineering career , but failed at the class of “Atomic phenomena” as well as having low grades in many others. That’s a PUBLIC record. Research that.
He lied to us with the alleged abilities of a DMSMH “Clear”. He lied to us about the alleged abilities that the OT levels were capable of bringing about. He lied to us about his past in the 2D (family relations included). He lied about L-12 “Stable exteriorization with full perception”. He lied to us with the “able to recall the whole track” OT VIII. He lied to us in his essay , “My Philosophy” , when he stated in it :
“A philosophy can only be a route to knowledge. It cannot be crammed down one’s throat. If one has a route, he can then find what is true for him. And that is Scientology.”
To then contradict himself in KSW #1 and in the Scn justice codes which clearly demand a blind acceptance of his Tech or else. For Christ sakes , he lied about so many vital and urgent matters , that I can’t understand all this damn whine about alleged discrepancies on his war record having been “neglected” at the HBO doc. That is a silly fundamentalist ,cultic attitude ; that’s what that is. It ISN’T anything else.
DEBATE THAT.
TC
Quite a remarkable argument, Peter. I’ve copied it for my files.
Mike: “You are still going on about Going Clear?…Why do you think Margaret Lake is a more reliable source than either of those two gentlemen?”
Actually, I wasn’t saying anything in that last comment about Going Clear. I was addressing Roger’s post about Hubbard’s “military screw-ups.”
And I was even validating Gibney where I wrote that he “would not have included Hubbard’s wartime records if he had come across Margaret Lake’s thoroughly documented research on the subject.” The reason I say that is because, as I noted in the comment, she cites government records – with photocopies of them. Basically, I was inviting Roger to take a look for himself.
Actually, you avoided the question I was really curious about:
Did you read Going Clear? Barefaced Messiah?
And I will add one more.
How do you know he DIDN’T study Margaret Lake’s data? Or more specifically, how to do you know Lawrence Wright didn’t? How do you respond to what is written on page 47 of Going Clear (just to cite one place where he talks about the war records and his disability). Do you think Lawrence Wright has his facts wrong?
No, Mike, I haven’t read those two books – only parts of Barefaced Messiah, a few years ago, and I was not impressed since he obviously didn’t even understand basic Scientology. As for Wright’s book, based on what I read from more than one source, it didn’t interest me. Here’s the way Marty described it in a blog post:
“…essentially cutting and pasting from a twenty-seven year old biography penned by British Author Russell Miller (Bare-Faced Messiah). About the only thing Wright added was to make it more salacious and one-sided by sprinkling it with the death bed accusations of a former Hubbard wife (which incidentally conflicted with her earlier shrill, divorce-court accounts given to Miller) and giving it a far less charitable and objective slant than even Miller – who did little to mask his hatred for Scientology – did in 1986. https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/01/20/going-clear-muddies-the-water/
.
Also, in the comment thread for that blog post, Margaret wrote:
“I’ve spent several weeks, on numerous occasions, over the last two years pouring through the military archives in Washington, DC and other places around the country, doing my own fact-checking of some of Wright’s (and earlier researchers’) conclusions regarding Hubbard’s military career. And I can tell you, Wright got several important things wrong. Had he really done the research, it would have been apparent that a completely different picture emerges of LRH’s time in the Navy than has been portrayed by others (notably Miller, Atack and Owen) in the past.” https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/01/20/going-clear-muddies-the-water/#comment-250050
OK, well that explains a great deal.
Thank you for being honest.
I suggest you open your mind and seek to discover and live with the truth.
There is nothing to be afraid of.
Even down to checking out what Marty subsequently said about the Russell Miller biography and a lot of other things. You seem to be cherry picking quotes to suit your purpose — which is a somewhat strange purpose. Why justify not reading the books because someone else claimed they were no good? Clearly you have an interest in the subject of the life of L. Ron Hubbard as it motivates you to comment here at some length.
Surely you would be better off reading these books and MAKING UP YOUR OWN MIND.
I highly recommend it to you.
They won’t bite you.
And you may even learn some things you didn’t know.
In many ways both of those books humanize L. Ron Hubbard — the demagoguery of fundamentalist scientology and the hagiographical materials they put out are really pretty lame and sad. Much better to know the whole story and decide who and what you want to believe.
If you really are interested in L. Ron Hubbard and his life I comment Barefaced Messiah to you. It is vilified and dismissed as a work of fiction by those who feel threatened by anything that is not 100% pro-Hubbard. Believe me, Miller did extensive research and spoke with a LOT of family members about the early life of LRH and it is quite remarkable to read their recollections and stories. You can decide for yourself which parts of Miller’s book are slanted. Would be fascinated to hear what you have to say after you have read these books.
Until that time, I will take your comments with a larger grain of salt, knowing you are not really interested in finding the truth for yourself, but would rather listen to what others tell you is the case (unless the others disagree with you….)
And her research is poorly documented. There’s too much jumping to conclusions and attempts to prove negatives by citing a lack of documentation for one conclusion as proof for another. Her work does not meet my standards as an auditor (a real auditor, not a Scientology one) nor as a scientist.
“When more extensive research was conducted…” What research was conducted? By whom? and what records were examined? May we see them? You haven’t presented a valid argument, marildi, but if it makes you feel any better I sympathize with your angst.
Thanks, Roger. Did you read the whole research paper?
marildi, there’s no way I’m going to read all that stuff Ms. Lake wrote but from what I did look at I’m satisfied she has made a LENGTHY commentary based strictly on conjecture. There are way too many, “possibly’s” and “very likely’s” for me to think she has anything solid. She buries the serious reader in logorrhea, a tactic commonly used by people to hide their absence of knowledge. Has this been printed in Freedom Magazine? It’s their brand of investigative journalism.
Roger: “…she has made a LENGTHY commentary based strictly on conjecture. There are way too many, “possibly’s” and “very likely’s” for me to think she has anything solid.”
There were many more “likely’s” than “possibly’s” – and she give the evidence for why they were “likely’s”. Sometimes that’s the best a researcher can do with the available data.
marildi, you are offering back to me what I said only you’ve applied lipstick to it. Ms. Lake’s argument is based on CONJECTURE. She has pieced together evidence to support a “theory” that Hubbard was wounded in battle and a “theory” as to why that knowledge isn’t present in documents where such knowledge typically would be present. Okay, fine. She has apparently provided evidence to support the POSSIBILITY Hubbard received battle wounds. It isn’t necessary however to compile evidence that Hubbard was relieved of command of his ship because that isn’t a theory, it’s a fact as are Hubbard’s ‘miscalculations’ that led to that decision. Hubbard has been caught in many other lies. In the courtroom, once a defendant has been caught in a lie, the judge has a right to believe NOTHING else he says.
Well, Roger, I think it’s like any paper, book, movie, etc. – most of the time there are conflicting reviews. even diametrically opposed interpretations. And let’s face it, the reviewers will usually be looking through their own biases and filters, to one degree or another.
Cheers.
Marildi, this isn’t a compare-and-contrast of subjective opinion like a comparison of reviews is. This is a disputation of facts. Lake used methids that would have embarrassed Nancy Drew. Every single speculation she out out can be disproven using source documentation. Oh, how ironic, Source taken down by source.
Espiando: “…this isn’t a compare-and-contrast of subjective opinion like a comparison of reviews is. This is a disputation of facts.”
Yes, it’s a disputation of facts, but that gets into INTERPRETATION of the facts, and this is where opinions vary. Did you even look over Margaret’s paper? I doubt that you or anyone else here actually read it. Too bad, because it’s pretty interesting.
“Every single speculation she out out can be disproven using source documentation.”
Not sure what your saying in the above sentence. Can you explain, and cite a specific example?
Yes, I did look over her “paper”. It was a laugh riot. It reminded me of a junior high term paper that deserved a D- at best. The modern version would be constructing a “scholarly document” using Wikipedia as your only source.
Facts are not to be interpreted. They are facts. You are grasping at straws here. All of the official documentation cries bullshit on Hubbard’s military claims. Lake did not construct an argument which convinced you. She gave you a construct, and a shoddy one at that, which appealed to your own biases. In other words, you wanted what she wrote to be true, so you applied “If it’s true for you, it’s true” to it and made it your own.
The confusing sentence should read “Every single speculation she put out…” This is what you get for trying to touch-type on a tablet in the middle of a crowded airport (LAX, with no sign of Jenny Linson). As for citing specific examples, you aren’t doing so, so why should I?
Geeze, Mike. I didn’t think you would allow others to post comparable – or more extreme – comments to mine – but then delete mine.
I have deleted both sides of this endless back and forth because I am tired of reading the comments so I just trash tme instead. They are absolutely pointless. Everyone has had their say.
Thanks Marildi. Those may have been Margaret Lake’s words but you chose to repeat them, which tells me that you agree with her “findings.” That’s fine with me. I just wish that people, no matter who they are, would not group the veterens as I stated in my post above on the same plane with Hubbard.
“Thanks Marildi. Those may have been Margaret Lake’s words but you chose to repeat them, which tells me that you agree with her “findings.””
Let me put it this way, Pepper, I think her findings are pretty convincing, and I haven’t come across any other “findings” that are more so. But if you are convinced that Hubbard’s military record was far less than honorable, I can understand why you would not want to group veterans on the same plane.
I think her findings are pretty convincing, and I haven’t come across any other “findings” that are more so.
Which is why I suggested to you to read those two books.
You need to look in order to say you “havent come across” anything that is “more convincing.” That’s easy when you don’t look at anything else…
Okay, Mike. I’m not particularly interested in reading two whole books, especially those two, in order to find out what they specifically have to say about Hubbard’s military record – but if anybody can quote a passage or post a link, the way I did, I will be glad to read it. This would be my idea of how blog discussions are beneficial – both sides of a debate should be able to see exactly what the other side is looking at.
Dont try and get others to do your thinking for you. Do yourself a favor and read the books. If you want to know, you will find out. Not going to let you turn this into an endless back and forth here of competing “quotes” as that will only serve as a distraction. How you can spend so much time posting comments and apparently have time to read Margaret Lake’s materials, and can fish through and dredge up old quotes from Marty’s blog “about” the books, but don’t have an interest in reading the books is pretty pathetic.
You sound more and more like the people the church sends out to “combat” the “bigots” — they KNOW they don’t need to watch Going Clear to know it is “all lies” or read anything that might hint at being negative because it’s “just entheta.”
Close-mindedness is not a flattering attribute for anyone.
Especially not when you are apparently proud of it.
I’ve read all of Marty’s books, not because I agree with him on many things but because he has first-hand information – as well as personal integrity. This isn’t the case for writers of all books on Scientology, and I should have the right to determine what is going to be worth my while to read. Perhaps if someone had been more specific about data from those two books that conflicts with what Margaret discovered, the books might have interested me.
Your “logic” doesn’t hold water – perhaps because it is illogical. Margaret Lake had no personal experience with L Ron Hubbard so hoe can she be an expert on his war record and why is she worth reading?
Mike, my comment was in relation to reading a whole book and making choices as to which ones to read. But I did check out what Marty subsequently said about the Russell Miller biography and I see what you mean. Thanks for that.
And Mike, just because I don’t necessarily agree with and accept every single thing in the Going Clear film doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate it overall. If you look at any of my previous comments, I think you will see that I do. I’m sure it has done and will continue to do a lot of good.
Right. Pleased to hear you think that. But this is a non sequitur response.
A question, Marildi : Do you think that LRH didn’t lie or exaggerated about his military records ?
And another question : Do you think that LRH didn’t lie to us or deceived us in any way about other areas of his life an/or work ?
Based on your answers, I will then QUOTE (as you asked) the applicable parts of whatever sources that I have at hand. Or is your claim only specifically about his military records, and if so, what point exactly are you in disagreement with ?
Best regards,
TC
TC: “A question, Marildi: Do you think that LRH didn’t lie or exaggerated about his military records?”
LRH may very well have exaggerated, and probably did, but I think it’s open to question as to how much of it was exaggerated.
TC: “And another question: Do you think that LRH didn’t lie to us or deceive us in any way about other areas of his life and or work?”
No, I don’t. But I do think that people who want to see LRH as all bad tend to accept and further exaggerate the negative claims – just as much as those who want to see him as all good tend to do the opposite. It works both ways, from my observation.
Fair enough ; thank you. We have no disagreements with your assertions there. Thanks for being honest.
Sorry if I sounded too rough at the end of my other long reply to you. You probably have not read it yet. Just “delete” the last sentence.
Best regards ,
TC
Okay, TC. Thanks for the apology.
Sure , dear. 🙂
Hi TC, you sure you want to go there? This can go on forever but if you want to enjoy repetitious and redundant quotes and answers, it’s your call and right to do so. Have a good one! 🙂
On second thought, I rather not go there. Thanks for saving my day.
:-)))
TC
Roger, most definitely I agree. It was obvious from LRH interviews that he was a liar, or maybe delusional, or both. I was just explaining from my position of watching “Going Clear” with heretofore little knowledge about Scientology — that part of the documentary showed it wasn’t a strictly factual, unbiased review of LRH and the organization.
“Going Clear” is a refreshing, beautifully-told and narrated piece of truth that packs a big punch. I’m an awe of everything about it.
“showed it wasn’t a strictly factual,” And how would you know this portion of the doc weren’t completely factual?
His military records were researched from military records. his college course records were pulled from GWU themselves.
What information do you have to state these sections weren’t factual though.
Hey theta clear, l followed that link.That person is insane .What he wrote, their isn’t any shred of proof of. It’s just a bunch of nonsense. Is that what indies believe. I just have to roll my eyes and lol.
And Mike ,they talk about you like a dog.Especially that rometview.
Oh, this blog is called the Den of Iniquity over there ever since Millstone Two’s obergruppenfuehrers declared Mike ideologically impure. Robin Remoteviewed is just one of the more egregious cases. DSM V doesn’t have entries for some of the conditions that he’s manifested here and at Marty’s (before Marty was declared ideologically impure).
If you ever want to do an academic paper about group psychosis, Millstone Two should be your first and only stop. It’s Six Characters In Search Of An Author, except they found one. The wrong one.
“Hey theta clear, l followed that link.That person is insane .What he wrote, their isn’t any shred of proof of. It’s just a bunch of nonsense. Is that what indies believe. I just have to roll my eyes and lol.”
Unfortunately , many of them believe that.
Don’t get me wrong , I appreciate many of them a lot , specially the writer. Besides that point of blindness , many of them are great individuals , many of which dedicate their lives to help others ( even for free) . But many can’t see past KSW #1 , which would not allow them to grow as a group. I want them to succeed at their game as well , but they must outgrow the concept of KSW and “Standard Tech” for any lasting real success.
Best regards,
TC
We had been living in an universe of black and white. Many of us old timers could see their first color after going through TR0 the hard way. Scientology did not attract us by telling us we could see more than grey. Almost non was interested in seeing colors. In the western world the interest is more on being better (above others). But that is marketing.Those that could not see a color went away fast, had been mad about the subject and did attack or claimed to have seen their first color. But that was a lie. Things changed and Scientology filled up with more and more people that only claimed to have seen a color. Those that could see colors could also know that more and more people only claimed to have seen them. Then those that could not see formed a believe system and in order to protect their lies had to get rid of anybody that could see colors. Major push was in 82 to 85. After that Scientology converted into a cult. If you can see a color Scientology makes sense. If not you could read all material and go nowhere. Now they have all the words but go nowhere.
Schorsch, you’re using the word, “color” as a metaphor for something and I wonder what it is. Why not come out and say what you mean rather than cloak it in poetic, figurative language that leaves its meaning up to interpretation?
Yeah , I was dizzy by the middle of his post trying to figure out what the hell he was talking about. 🙂
All I know is that if I’m having trouble seeing colors, I’m going to an optometrist, not an org.
He means “Those who have eyes can see.”
“Those who have eyes can see”. Thank you marildi but there are none so blind as those (who have eyes) who will not see.
“The only thing worse than being blind is having sight but no vision.” –Helen Keller
🙂
m,
If OSA was paying you by the word to post on blogs, how much per word would that be?
[[[[[ ]]]]]
…this is your friendly neighborhood transgender reporting from never mind, who wants a bedtime story? Ok, heads on pillows everybody, dream dream away…
“Bam, club them in the head, no pause, not to kill them just knock them unconscious, all three.”
And Mike (names fictitious to protect the innocent) is stunned for the correct response. Was he serious? Didn’t matter, for the fact of the matter was he could be serious. The question was only whether now was the right time, answer blank, amounting to yet another senseless and unpleasant moment, space in time over and again. This shit does get old. Bam, club-club and I’m done, what, he asks David Miscavige were you abused as a child. Did you experience this sort of thing, this… clubbing…ever? The questions are getting larger now, Dave. Is this the Stone Age? Why did the Survival Rundown fail for Cathriona White? May I assume you are familiar with the case? We will accept any response, sir, please speak.
So, that’s Miscavige, all summed up pretty well. With Hubbard, well he’s dead but it started earlier with him or whenever it was that he realized he could capture peoples’ attention as a storyteller. The End.
[[[[[ ]]]]]
I do almost feel sorry for Miscavige. He has no-one, really. And once he’s out, the only people who will hang with him will do so because he’s rich. TC will choose his career over him and dump him. His lawyers, those ersatz friends, will turn on him to save their own necks. His wife is estranged and probably hates his guts. His father is writing a tell all book and hates his guts. It does suck to be him.
I get carried away, joking,(think two ass-cheeks about the size of Jupiter), but the end will not be pretty for him. My compassion comes far too far behind to be of any service for this, I barely have the dignity within me to call him a man. It takes David Miscavige to bring out the dark in me that should only exist within the animal kingdom and for this I bear my shame. On the bright side, i think i added a couple pounds on the hind end this month, thanks to Tom and Jerrys and all those delicious pizzas. AquaMarine I think you’re beautiful and I often think so and no it has nothing to do with the color but always for whatever you say, amazing-lee beautiful you-mm
It would be nice if he had any capacity for self reflection to realize it’s totally his fault he is all alone and how badly he’s treated those he was supposed to love the most. Oh and how many other lives he’s destroyed.
Hey Mike, do you know if the DVD has additional content? I would think there would be hours of stuff that was cut for time. I didn’t see any mention of additional content on the Amazon site. Did I miss that?
No idea, but I would keep that additional content if I was Alex/HBO for use in future pieces.
It does suck to be Miscavige! 🙂
Quoted by Mike from the LA Times: “…a homegrown religion that’s been meaningful and helpful to many but has also led to families being torn apart and unconscionable campaigns of intimidation.”
This is one of the most succinct, accurate and fair statements anybody has made, that I know of – and in less than 25 words.
Excellent blog post Mike. Very informative. And some funny lines too. 😀
That’s not what you said about the documentary itself over at the South African blog, where you joined the crowd and bitched about the Indies not being mentioned, as if it was the most important thing about Scientology and deserved a two-hour documentary in itself. The statement’s only “fair” because “the good side” is mentioned, not for any other reason. How about telling the whole truth, something you accused Gibney of not doing?
Espiando: “The statement’s only ‘fair’ because ‘the good side’ is mentioned, not for any other reason.”
I said it was one of the most fair statements I knew of – and it is. But I have no problem “telling the whole truth” that Gibney UNfairly left out anything about the Indies and what a different scene it is from the CoS version of “Scientology.” Glad you brought it up, Espi. 🙂
Problem is that he only had 2 hours. I have heard a lot of people with various moans about his film: Why didn’t you include Shelly Miscavige being disappeared? Why nothing about Lisa McPherson? Why no mention of Snow White? Why not cover Paulette copper? The GO? The “Indies”? His children? Mary Sue? And of course, the biggest moan of all “Why didn’t you show our massive international expansion and incredible buildings and all our social betterment programs and how we are destroying the psychs and and and.”
You can’t fit in everything. Don’t fall into what I call the “Going Clear Whiners Club”. It’s not good company.
Mike, that’s a good point that not everything could be fitted in. However, it did seem to me that there was plenty said about the horrors of the CoS version Scientology that the overall point of it being a vicious cult was made quite well.
On the other hand, there was almost nothing about anything good in core Scientology tech – which is why I wanted to ack the statement in that article, and ack you as well for including the article on your blog post.
The only thing I recall in the film that was at all positive was a brief comment by Sara – effectively lost as it was not played up at all. And there was nothing whatsoever about the fact that independent Scientologists even exist, let alone are “meaningful and helpful to many” (quoting the article again).
Is there ever a discussion that you can just be satisfied to end without you saying the same thing over again? You made this point. I pointed out to you how silly it is and not to be a Going Clear Whiner and you respond with the same whine over again.
I can pretty much assure you, in spite of your disappointment, the film is not going to be re-edited.
Now what?
“Is there ever a discussion that you can just be satisfied to end without you saying the same thing over again?”
No, there isn’t. :-)))
Pot, meet kettle. 😛
That was good! :-)))
Sorry, Mike. I didn’t think I was just repeating the same thing. I thought I was agreeing with your point in part and countering it in another respect. But, okay.
Right on, Mike. I hate the lame argument that each side of a debate carries equal weight. It seldom does. Scientology has no redeeming qualities. The bad FAR outweighs any “good.” The “good” was ripped off from other works anyway and can be easily found in any bookstore, safely, at a far more affordable price.
Going Clear is about the Church of Scientology and not about the general religion of scientology, though, so talking about the wins of indies is basically irrelevant. If you’re watching a documentary about the excesses and abuses of the Roman Catholic Church, do you expect a 15-minute interlude about how the Baptists down the street are hunky-dory without all the popery?
Well expressed comment, H.J. But tell me this – other than those of us who already know the difference, do you think the viewers of Going Clear would differentiate the abuses of the church from Scientology as a philosophy and practice? Personally, I think not only will they equate the two but the film itself seemed to do so, if only because of not addressing this point. And I think it would have been a more responsible film if they had.
In any case, I give Gibney’s film a lot of credit for bringing the abuses to public view – more than anyone had before.
Please don’t “ack” me. It feels so disingenuous.
HJ, I actually thought you expressed your disagreement very politely but didn’t want to put it that way because I thought it sounded disingenuous. 🙂
Ack. Ack. Ack. Ack. Ack. Ack. Sorry Dr. H.J., but, it just had to be done….Ack!
What is ack?? Marildi – I think that anyone watching the film with a half a brain would notice and realize that not all scientologists are bad, in fact the 7 or 8 SP’s in the film were presented in a good light, as caring people who have been hurt by the church’s policies, are trying to rebuild their lives and re-establish contact with loved ones still in. Perhaps the independents out there should contact Alex and ask for more representation in the 2nd film. But I don’t think the film made Scientology tech look bad or individual scientologists look bad. the zenu stuff is bad sounding, the hole, dm, and the insanity the members go thru to remain in the church looks bad. Which is what the film is really about, not the tech but the cult it has become and how it became that way. I hope that makes sense and I’m sorry if you don’t agree, but that’s my perspective! 😉
Observingsandiego: “But I don’t think the film made Scientology tech look bad or individual scientologists look bad…what the film is really about, not the tech but the cult it has become and how it became that way.”
First, “ack” is short for acknowledgement. Thanks acknowledging that the film was about “the cult it has become.” To be clear, however, the reason I think the film made the tech look bad, indirectly, was because it didn’t differentiate it from the cult. And I’m not confident at all that viewers who haven’t been in Scientology are as able to pick up on the nuances Frank beans did, for example, or are as sensitive.
“I hope that makes sense and I’m sorry if you don’t agree, but that’s my perspective! 😉 ” 😉
Or my story? LOL
I am sick to death of the whiners as well. Haters gonna hate and find fault no matter what. It’s like a hobby with them; a very self-absorbed one at that.
Alex made an absolutely stellar doc. I’ve viewed it so many times that I know it word for word now.
Linda, I have, too. It’s absolutely mesmerizing on so many levels. I don’t use the word masterpiece very often, but it applies here in my opinion.
Espi , one of the things that upset me about the Indies, and I have to confess that I did it myself , is all the whining they do about things that are THEIR HAT (their job) to do , and not anyone else’s. They pretend that others come and defend Scn for them ; the Indie field. Did any of them approached Gibney to make any suggestions to him ? Did any of them approached the quite a few reporters that were intrigued as to why Scientologists stayed practicing Scn even with all the bad press it gets ? No, of course they didn’t. They just sit as expectators waiting for others to do their duty.
They were more worried about “damaging” LRH’s reputation than in helping the truth come out. “It is going to affect Scn’s image world-wide” , many of them stated as if Scn had ANY type of good image at all. At a known PRO-LRH blog , one highly trained and veteran Scientologist wrote a rather long essay on Wright’s book, and also mentioned something about Gibney’s doc. Here is the link :
https://milestonetwo.wordpress.com/2015/02/01/prisoners-of-belief/
I have absolutely nothing against this terminal. In fact, I admire many aspects of his personality , and I think he is an excellent individual , even though very misguided in his analysis of this issue. I only brought this point up and posted the link to show the existing mindset and “groupthink” that pervades the Indie field.
In contrast with the inertia most Indies manifest when an actual effort is required of them to SHOW others the positive parts of Scn (from their perspective) by doing some effective PRO (Public Relation Officer actions to help the image of any institution) about it , they guys at DROR, Israel DID something effective about it. Dani and his wife suit DM and the CofS for violations of priest-penitent priviledge information (the Church used private information from their PC folders) and went public about it by using on of the largest T.V news Media at Israel, the channel 10. In this news report, Dani and Tami discussed the disconnection policy and the many abuses from the Church. They ALSO talked about the Indie field, and how it was different from the Church. Here is the link :
http://scnil.org/english/2014/12/13/scientology-on-israels-channel-10/
This action from Dani and Tami is what I call DOING SOMETHING EFFECTIVE ABOUT IT instead of waiting for others to do OUR job for us.
As Mike so eloquently put it , “Don’t fall into the Going Clear Whiners Club”.
I rest my case.
TC
Great post TC, I have a question… If DM is ousted, or if cos loses their tax exemption – isn’t this good for indies? Good for everyone all the way around (aside from dm)? Is it based solely on the indies wanting the tech/LRH to be protected or is there more to it?
“Great post TC, I have a question… If DM is ousted, or if cos loses their tax exemption – isn’t this good for indies? Good for everyone all the way around (aside from dm)? Is it based solely on the indies wanting the tech/LRH to be protected or is there more to it?”
Thanks , Aquamarine.
Yes , It would be excellent for Indies. They would be able to then disseminate a different message w/out no black PR being constantly thrown at them by a mighty Church with incredible resources.
I think that most of them just want to preserve the Tech , which I have absolutely nothing against. I use Scn in my life on a daily basis , even though I “squirrel” it as I see fit. :-)))
Their blind spot , the attitude that obstruct their own purposes regarding it , is the one about attempting to misguidedly “protect” LRH’s image. Right there , their good judgment crumbles , and they become their own enemies to “Preserving the Tech”. I’ve been saying this time and time again at different blogs and forums , but apparently it just falls on deaf ears :
“As long as LRH’s criminal policies and actions are not widely and publicly acknowledged by Indies , they won’t earn enough respect from others to be even listened to , let alone to ‘disseminate’ any Tech.”
Humans inherently support the fostering of Human Rights. They might not even know enough about the subject , but there is always this little thought that something is not all right. And if they see a group of individuals blindly supporting someone whose modus operandi to push his discoveries was authoritarianism , threats of eternal darkness into oblivion , and general punishment for not following his ways , they will immediately label such individuals as cult adherents , and RIGHT THRE , they have already lost the battle.
I’ve been trying to get that datum through the very thick skulls of many Indies , including some friends that post here , to no avail. They immediately try to rationalize it all. “Let’s examine the political and social ‘context’ where those harmful policies originated from” , “LRH was being ‘persecuted’ by many government agencies” , “He fell the effect of ‘hidden influences’ like unblown BTs or CBR’s ‘monitoring’ entities” , blah , blah , blah , justification , justification , justification.
Well , I think to myself , “Have it your way , buddies ; I am wasting no more time with you”.
In order to rehabilitate Scn , IF it can be rehabilitated at all , 4 conditions must exist first :
1. Many “Ethics” policies must go , specially HCOPL 23 Dec 1965 , “Suppressive Acts : Suppression of Scientology and Scientologists”. That PL represent just TOO many Human Right abuses. HCOB 5 Nov 1967 , “Critics of Scientology” is another policy that must be cancelled at once. That policy , all by itself , put Scn into the category of a cult. The WTH (Way to Happiness) booklet is more than enough as a code of acceptable conduct for Scientologists.
2. Forced disconnection and Sec checks (forced ones) must NEVER ever be used again.
3. KSW #1 must go ,go ,go. Whether Scn works or not is an INDIVIDUAL decision and perception, and not a forced belief or perception.
4. A public apology for LRH’s misguided methods at “protecting’ the Tech must be offered , and ALL , ALL Indies must agree to it.
5. Not ever again , should any Indie feel intimidated or attacked by criticisms towards Scn and/or LRH. People have a right to dissent , and a right to Free Speech as well. Ironically enough, Scientologists are the religion members that support that Human Right the least.
If those 5 conditions ate met , Scn can survive and become rehabilitated. Would it “save” humanity ? Very doubtful it would , but people have a right to believe it can ; don’t Christians believe in a heaven only if Christ is accepted as the ”savior” ? So , why the hell should be any different with Scn ? If Scientologists believe that Scn is Humans’ route to salvation , so be it ; let them be. I don’t believe that , but I don’t care neither. It is their game ; everybody is entitled to have a game.
So ,there you have it , Aquamarine ; are your Qs answered ?
Best regards ,
TC
Haha TC it was me (observingsandiego not aqua that asked). 😉 thank you so much for your thoughtful response. In any religion/set of beliefs there are things you must make allowances for as times change and more becomes known. Not stoning someone to death for instance, hating homosexuals (in Christianity specifically, if God loves everyone then surely something that a person has no control over is not a sin, imho), the earth is 6k years old, etc etc. that doesn’t make the principles of he religion wrong. LRH was a very flawed individual, but if people have actual gains from the tech then that’s a positive thing and should be celebrated. 😉
Thanks for your post, dear Observingsandiego, and sorry for the confusion. Take care.
TC
Dude, hear hear! I posted a video a few weeks ago on my Growing Up In Scientology YouTube channel about “Scientology going out of it’s way to make enemies”.
And what do I get last week? A message from someone in the independent scientology community DEMANDING that I change the title of the video to “CHURCH OF Scientology going out of it’s way to make enemies” — like ANYONE in the world at large knows the difference between “Scientology” and “Church of Scientology”.
Literally, this guy said “I must insist…”
This guy was saying it was my job to make the public know the difference. WTF?!?!?
Do you know who will realize my video was about the Church of Scientology under David Miscavige? ANYONE who WATCHES the video! In fact, this person even pointed out that in the video I was very clear I was talking about the C of S, and not Scientology as a subject. But that was not good enough.,
He said if I did not change the title of the video, I was HELPING DAVID MISCAVIGE DESTROY SCIENTOLOGY.
Is this guy effing kidding me?
I don’t dare paint the whole independent community with the same brush. I mean hell, my mom is one of the most productive auditors in the independent community that i know of. I’ve got no problem with independent Scientologists, except for those INDIVIDUALS in it who act like they left one cult just to join another.
Thank you but no thank you. Get the hell out of here with that shit.
Sounds like Ronnie Bell. He has a track record of being very touchy when anyone uses the term “scientology” in a context when it isn’t one hundred percent absolutely clear it means the cult.
By the way, if Marcotai keeps responding to your videos, state or imply that he and his goats have an intimate relationship on the Fifth Dynamic. He always hated when I did that to him.
“Dude, hear hear! I posted a video a few weeks ago on my Growing Up In Scientology YouTube channel about “Scientology going out of it’s way to make enemies”.
And what do I get last week? A message from someone in the independent scientology community DEMANDING that I change the title of the video to “CHURCH OF Scientology going out of it’s way to make enemies” — like ANYONE in the world at large knows the difference between “Scientology” and “Church of Scientology”.
Literally, this guy said “I must insist…”
This guy was saying it was my job to make the public know the difference. WTF?!?!?”
TC : Yeah , WTF!?!? , is a very suitable reaction , all right. :-)))
“I don’t dare paint the whole independent community with the same brush.”
TC : You are right about that ; not all are like that. I have many Indies friends that are not like that at all.
“I mean hell, my mom is one of the most productive auditors in the independent community that i know of.”
TC : And a VERY good one from what I heard from others. I loved her speech at the Q&A period video posted at Ortega’s.
“I’ve got no problem with independent Scientologists, except for those INDIVIDUALS in it who act like they left one cult just to join another.
Thank you but no thank you. Get the hell out of here with that shit.”
TC : I don’t have any problem with them neither ; but the amount of them who act like that , as if they left one cult just to join another , is quite considerable.
Thanks for the comm Aaron , I love your work.
Best regards,
Peter
I love your videos, keep them coming no matter what anyone says! 😉
Just keep on keeping on, Aaron. I saw your recent video where you read the emails you received (names omitted). It sounds like it’s the same people – just on opposite sides of the fence, minus the vulgar phrasing and profanity.
Oh my god, that link is just… wow.
“Two-dimensional worms really don’t get other dimensions. ”
So calling us wogs isn’t bad enough, now we’re worms? How religious of him.
What can I say, dear Gtsix ? That post was from several months ago (a year ?). I only hope that his “religious” ideas had changed by now. :-)))
TC
Hope indeed. Doubtful those who despise others so deeply change their dispostition…. but yes, one must keep hoping that love beats hate.
🙂 take care TC
-gtsix
Got it , dear GTsix ; and take care you too.
TC
LOOPY, and prone to conjuring up conspiracy theories to explain inconvenient FACTS
Espi, This poster is known to be . . .
Marildi isn’t a tenth as bad as Margaret the Flake and some members of Millstone Two.
Good stuff coming up all the time awesome
I would like to see what Scientology would look like, with benevolent leaders and no money motivation beyond the bare necessities to deliver courses and auditing.
“benevolent ” leaders would tell the truth about the “tech” and Hubbard and therefore would collapse the operation.
Um…that would be called “therapy,” easily available and much more affordable than the lame parlor tricks with an e-meter.
With all this pressure we should be careful that Miscavige does not completely snap in a violent way. By this I mean he does not have an obvious route out, no real world skills to fall back on. He is surrounded by brainwashed sycophants, but is only too aware of the outside world. (Hell, OSA definitely read this blog-Hello guys). The end of a cult is never a whimper but always a bang…..
No real world skills? C’mon! Miscavige can, um, well He could… um… I mean maybe He might… er, well… oh never mind.
If David Miscavige weren’t such an asshole, I’d say, “Poor Dave.” But to hell with Him. I fart in His general direction.
Steve, I hear you, but we should also keep in mind that Miscavige has 50 Million dollars of his own personal net worth to fall back on and help keep the boogey man away. If he’s ousted from the cult he won’t need to work. But if it came to his pride, to his being openly disgraced in front of Scientology and the world, nothing to do with money, but his losing face, as the Asian’s say , or if he had to go to jail, well then, yes, I could definitely see him snapping in a violent way.
Where does that figure come from?
People seem to forget — he doesn’t NEED personal money. It’s a liability to him to have too much. Who wants to have personal income and pay taxes on it when all you need do is snap your fingers and someone else will buy anything you want? It’s difficult to understand I know. But it is irrelevant how much personal money he has. Really, it means nothing one way or the other.
It’s more the people around him I was concerned about. He is clearly a psychopath in the truest sense and as such would be more prone to destroy everything and everyone around him if he was in danger of being removed from his position. A bloody murder/suicide is the usual MO of people like him. There is no longer an ‘easy out’ for him, if he gets deposed he will be hounded to the ends of the earth by everyone, and if he stays nothing will change.
Mike you would know better than anyone, is there an exit strategy in place if
/for dm to step down? There’s a lot out there about how he gained power but is there a plan of succession if he retires/steps down? I’d think he’d be too paranoid to have something like that in place but the cos is a business, who takes over if he has a car wreck or dies?
Steve Crawford. DM is a millionaire. He could resign tomorrow with that PLUS a church paid pension (which is legal). There is his “route out”. Living forever on a private, tropical island.
But like Mike said, it doesn’t matter about the money. Again, I am only pointing out that psychopaths never relinquish power voluntarily, and when they are threatened with removal they tend to react violently. The ‘route out’ on a tropical island would still be a massive and unbearable assault on Miscavige’s ego, and one he would not tolerate for a moment.
I am not sure.
For quite some time I have predicted that Miscavige will “go off the lines” and follow the footsteps of LRH.
He will offer some justification that he has to finish compiling all the tech and that it is too important and he has been constantly distracted for 30 years so has not been able to get to it.
He will disappear and hide somewhere, but retain control over scientology (and access to its money/resources for whatever he needs).
It might begin with him moving semi-permanently to the Moneywinds in order to compile the tech and he would still be able to keep doing his events from there, but eventually it would become too claustrophobic.
It’s the perfect way out for him. It’s what LRH did.
And don’t forget, he not only has the OT levels, but there is NO Briefing Course. NO OEC Vols. No dictionaries. Non-standard L Rundowns. NO KTL. NO LOC. NO Class VIII Course.
These things are all “up to him.”
Mike I think you just hit the nail on the head… Thanks so much for weighing in… As always I’m sure the reality will be worse than what we can imagine. 😉
I agree with your assessment of things, Steve. He wants power and adulation and admiration. If he had to go live in exile so to speak on an island, that would not do at all and he would violently object to his adoring crowds not worshipping him anymore. And yes I think he will do harm to himself and others when the time comes.
Mike, I think your assessment is also a possible scenario. Now that he reads your blog, he might just read your comment and say, “Yeah, dat’s de ticket…”
It’s a sobering thought. If, as Mike said, he did move to Moneywinds, then he is removed somewhat from the day to day operation. It would not take a genius to work out that while Miscavige is removed from the grindstone, doubts and subterfuge against him will invariably become apparent in his absence. People no matter who they are will not keep blindly following him if he is never around to intimidate them to do what he wants. He can’t and won’t risk it. But if he stays massive pressure is on him to answer questions over his leadership in the face of unprecedented black PR.
It really, REALLY sucks to be a psychopathic little dictator that only gullible, over-rated actors like these days.
Steve, I’m not really worried about DM staging some shoot out and going out in a blaze of blood & bodies. Not really his style. He’s more into legal smoke & mirrors.
The legal smoke and mirror trick only lasts so long, and the people have long memories. While DM is using a time honoured tactic of scaring everyone off with financial muscle-flexing in court, the stats are down and the rot can’t be hidden forever. Like the old saying goes, “You can fool some of the people some of the time…..”
More and more people are avoiding the CoS like the plague, it is under unprecedented media scrutiny and quite frankly, people are wondering why the US Government still allows them tax free status and all the protection that entails.
The focus is shifting slightly to why the IRS has let them off the hook especially in these times of austerity for everyone else.
Time for a proper, intensive audit of the books. All other religions actually DO charitable works not just for a quick PR photograph.
No other ‘religion’ charges for ‘services’ either.
There will be a massive effort undertaken by the CoS to undermine the Oscar nominations between now and the ceremony.
I would expect to see Travolta and Cruise et al boycott the ceremony in protest at Gibney’s documentary.
But the tide has turned and the fading star of once popular actors will not be enough to hold it back.
Then, once their own PR people get in their ear there will be an exodus of the Big Whale Actors all with a DM story to tell.
Vanity compels them to.
And all the while the volatile Dear Leader is a pressure cooker waiting to explode…
Scientology get’s a lot of bad press because of it’s oversize facade and the fact that a lot of Hollywood people seem to be, or have been, involved. What we should keep in mind is that the “Prison of Belief” can apply to any religion large or small. It’s obvious Scientology needs to lose it’s 501c exemptions. What needs to be changed is separating the 501c status from religion. The 501c status should be based entirely on the books.
501(c)3 is available to non-religions. I think the general criteria are (a) non-profit and (b) contributing to the public welfare.
Scientology fails on (a) and is probably overall negative impact as to (b).
Great news Mike!!! Thank-you so much for posting this today. This gives me hope that some day soon, in a prison, DLHDM will get a OTX right-up his Annus Horribilis!!!!!
Bubba will help with any problem he may encounter. Flavoured KY a specialty.
More important to Scientology’s future, I think, than the empty buildings with no public, will be the embarrassment of the whales. Like a presidential campaign bankrolled by PACs, not voters, The Miscavige Program only needs big donors, not course income, to sustain the overhead. Staff is still useful to service the facilities if there are few new public to audit. Unlike the celebrities, most of the wealthy Scientologists that I see in the flyers Mike publishes, and that live in my community, have not been similarly recognized as Big Beings in the greater business and social network. They enjoy status within Scientology that they do not outside, despite their wealth. The Scientology galas and awards imitate the philanthropic galas of the business elite. The podium applause w/ Miscavige works for these achievers hungry for acknowledgment. He knows that game and is good at it. As association with Scientology is more openly questioned and viewed with derision, as never-ins start repeating Leah Remini’s “Where’s Shelly?”, whales with disappear. Let’s face it, they have always had the internet, so they have chosen to ignore the abuse. But the kind of egos that need to be recognized for their Havingness and Prosperity in tux’s and beaded gowns won’t want to be laughed at.
Exactly. They don’t care about the abuses but they do care if they finally get that they are being scorned or laughed at.
It boils down to the fact the only ‘abuses’ they recognise is ridicule against them. Wogs are irrelevant and deserve everything they get. Scientology ‘think’ is applicable only to scientologists. They know ridicule is wasted on the public, that’s why they are so sensitive to it! Simple really.
Let’s face it — Any of these Duggans or whoever who don’t say to The Owner something like, “I’ll happily lap up the applause and faux adulation, but don’t make me find a place at home to put a big dumb trophy,” is some kind of nut stripped of its threads anyway. If you actually accept the burden of the world’s ugliest 5-foot tall trophy in exchange for your millions, then you’re the equivalent of an Iranian cab driver judging the fashion quality of polyester shirts. In other words, these clowns cannot be embarrassed. They’re like Donald Trump and that crazy-ass hair. He’s not bothered by the mockery, because he just knows his friggin’ hair is awesome, and he’s got the billions to prove it.
ON Trump, I think he keeps the hair like that because it gets attention, and as LRH said, money flows to the thing getting attention. If it gets Donald more press and publicity, he does it or keeps it.
His hair is ridiculous. The worst comb-over I’ve ever seen but never mind, that ‘s not why I don’t like him.
What his ‘no nonsense tell it like it is’ personality doesn’t do it for you? Haha. What a joke when that’s the only person actually saying what they really believe & not being a ‘politician’. Sad state of affairs.
I knew that the death throes would be ugly to see. I didn’t know they’d be this hideous. And it’s absolutely beautiful to watch them.
What’s next, Davey? Going to forbid the sheeple from shopping at Amazon, Wal-Mart, Target, or anywhere that will carry this video? Good luck with that.
I wanted to take advantage of today’s post concerning the “On Going Clear” doc , to urge others to watch the Q&A (Question and Answer) period with Mike and Sara Goldberg after the showing of the documentary at the Muvico 10 in Palm Harbor, Florida this past Friday. It got posted at Ortega’s :
http://tonyortega.org/2015/10/03/going-clear-q-a-mike-rinder-and-sara-goldberg-take-heat-from-scientologists/
Probably most posters here have already seen it , but as it was only briefly announced at the end of Haydn James post , I felt that it was of the essence to bring it to notice again , specially for the benefit of UTRs (Under The Radars) and Still-ins . This video is really a gem , and it is my humble opinion that it ought to be included in this blog’s principal page so that anybody getting here at any time (either as old followers or as totally new) have the opportunity to watch it. For me it is THAT good.
As opposed to documentaries and movies that can be rehearsed and edited for quality and commercial purposes , this Q&A video has the most important element of all in Public Relations : Human Emotion ; real people experiencing real emotions. Specifically , the part where this crazy troll and Sara’s former husband begin this silly and ridiculous attack towards Rinder (repeating the same old and trite story) , was the perfect evidence of the Church’s misguided and suppressive methods at attempting to silence dissidents and critics. Sara handled it quite excellent , and Mike has always been the master at correct Public Relations , better than any Church executive that has ever been a spoke man for the Cofs. How did he handle it ? By staying totally cool and silent. He let THEM do all the back PR they needed to do which of course , only backfired at them. That was ingenious indeed. VERY well played.
The Church is becoming incredible sloppy at using LRH’s methods of attacking the dissenters ; incredible sloppy. Why ? Cause they no longer has ANY truth to “document” ; they can only deal in lies , which sooner or later backfires heavily in the lair. So they only throw punches in the dark as a DESPERATE attempt to produce an effect they can no longer produce. Not in today’s new scenario , no.
What I watched there was decent people sincerely and genuinely talking about their bad experiences with a very harmful cult. Real people , living in a real world ; normal people with normal goals and desires in life who learned very valuable lessons. And now they want others to benefit from those lessons as well. Pretty simple proposition indeed. That’s why I consider that Q&A video so valuable and even historic. It should not get lost among the dozens of posts that gets published here monthly. It is a great tool to use. My humble opinion at least.
TC
Absolutely agree TC. Also that Mike articulated so clearly
and cleanly and with no over/under emotion but just very
factually why the church should not have tax exemption.
Agree completely TC! Thanks for reposting, it really is something everyone should watch. 😉
Thanks for reposting that link. As Mike said, the hecklers made the church look bad. Mike and Sarah did an awesome job of handling those church idiots. Does anyone know who the auditor was who gave a passionate speech from the audience? Who was that?
It’s been covered about 10 times here and on Tony’s blog and on Facebook. Gayle Smith. Mother of Aaron Smith-Levin. Subject of an article at Tony’ blog some time ago.
I agree. A Permanent link on this page would be great. And, as a never-in I may be completely off base here, but with perhaps (or not) some brief Hubbard citations on policies and some CofS quotes (that are out there) about how the type of stuff shown in the video doesn’t happen. That may assist some still ins, never-ins who are considering involvement and UTRs at opening their eyes/ears…even at a subconscious level. As many have stated; one never knows what action or event it is that cracks the door open to light.
And while this would likely complicate the video posting, some subtitles (on the attacking portion) might be nice. I watched it multiple times to try and isolate some of the dialogue. One that got past me until the last run was when the initial dissenting speaker made a comment (paraphrasing and explaining a bit here – not exact quotes) to Sara’s husband alluding that the child support her ex allegedly never paid wasn’t needed because he said to the effect of – why when she has some rich guy like you. (Again not exact quote.)
The subtitles would help with what is being said since there was cross talking and emotional reactions by some, obviously, which masked some very questionable dialogue IMO.
My suggestion may not be a great idea as a never-in, but a person who may never have been exposed to the non CoS side and was thinking about pursuing it; it may prove to be a big bite to chew on, IMO.
Additionally. It shows the stark contrast of how knowledgeable, well spoken, organized, thought provoking and even respectful in his disagreement, Mike was in not only his Q&A responses, but his reaction to the dissenters.
Sara shows how passionate she is and really punctuates the emotional trauma she’s endured and is educating others about. A Mother in agony is depicted as I see it.
And the several former CoSers make some very valid points for thought and discussion.
I don’t think this is about tooting your own horn Mike. I think it is piece that says so much more, in the short time of the video, with words, actions, truths, alleged lies and emotions. It’s quite powerful. I venture a guess that you are used to this type of reaction to you, but there are many who may benefit from seeing this I think…even if the end result (whatever that may be) isn’t instant and may just sit and marinate a bit.
Kind of reminds me of the LAX confront on Marty, which hit me hard I admit, but a different angle or aspect, if you will. Just my 2 cents. Sorry if they are misspent.
“…one never knows what action or event it is that cracks the door open to light.”
It is the burning question as I imagine the isolated youth in the middle of the sea who comes to question the sight of his captain, alone in the dark, a question that would surely bring a harsh punishment yet again if he were to bring it into the light of day.
What would I say, if my word could reach him?
What if the next thing I say would turn to be the most important word to reach his ear,
in this man’s life?
Yeah, that was brilliant all by itself , and articulated with great elegance, self-control , and balance. He made those hired trolls DM sent , look incredible petty and even a little bit crazy. He might not agree with this assertion, but he is beating Scn with Scn well used. A masterful use of the “How To Handle Black PR” PL used the right way, w/out no lies , with great balance and good judgment , as it should always have been used by the Church and by LRH as well.
TC
This has become a reality thanks to very courageous individuals whose integrity takes precedence
Thanks fir keeping the torch of truth alive
It does make a change
With the huge number of clam exposes that have come out in the past 10 years and the larger number coming out before 2015 is over, when will Karin Pouw ever get out of the HOLE?
Someone has to take the blame for all this, and it won’t be Miscavage. Where is the clam counter attack? Will Tom Cruise get back on the clam wagon and tell us all about the wit and wisdom of Lron?
Will John Travolta keep telling the vox populi how the clams helped him when his son died? {the only thing JT has said about $cientology in the last 5-6 years}.
Will Kirstie Ally and Danny Masterson get together and add their command of the English language to the fight?
No, the ostriches will bury their heads ever deeper in the sand. And the disconnections and the sec checks will become even worse. And the beatings and the reging will get worse.
Even boiled clams have their breaking point. And DM knows that they are going start blaming him soon. But he doesn’t have to care, he rules the clam universe and unless JT and TC publicly denounce him, he’ll still be the clamfather.
How long can the clampire survive without new meat? That day is fast approaching.
You know what’s funny, is if Tom Cruise told that asshole Miscavige to bugger off, Cruise would win. Cruise doesn’t even realize that, but Dave knows.
Miscavige would threaten to leak info from Cruise’s PC folders and break up his family etc. etc., but all Cruise would have to do would be to say, “Bring It,” and then go public.
Nobody outside of clam circles knows or cares who the hell David Miscavige is, but EVERYBODY knows who Tom Cruise is. Tom has the world media in his hand, more money than he could ever waste, and Tom’s friends and family know where their bread is buttered. And it sure as hell isn’t from the Pope on a Box.
Unlike the rank-and-file clam, Cruise wouldn’t lose a thing; in fact he would come out of that fight with more friends and more business than he has now.
Tom Cruise has the power to bury David Miscavige and he doesn’t even know it. By Dave’s own reckoning, power is when people listen to you. Miscavige may be an ignorant fuck, but He’s not stupid. He knows.
That’s how I see it, anyway. I’d love to see Cruise man up, but I’m not holding my breath.
You know, Dave, despite your screaming, punching, torturing, lying, humiliating, invalidating and destroying as many people as you can; the folks who are exposing all your crimes are being pretty darn civil about it.
At least for the moment …………………
And BTW Dave,
Howz the hired help working out for you? DO NOT relax, they need close supervision!
I feel sorry for the small, furry animals that Miscavige is going to torture so to vent his wrath.
Do not allow him a magnifying glass for ANY reason!
Hmmmmm…magnifying glass, eh? I guess he needs one for very personal reasons…..
LDW, you forgot ‘Enslaving.’
What do you get for Christmas for that special guy who
built his own prison ( the hole) and threw all his top exec’s in it.
His copy of “Going Clear’ of course !
We should all send Him a copy, ℅ Flag. lol.
With little Davy’s penchant for over the top, dramatic, narcissistic events put on to make him look like some kind of God. Do you really picture him going out quietly and humbly? I see him making some grandiose exit designed to make everyone wrong…in his mind anyway. A self made martyr, if you will. The biggest martyr ever! His final, grand production.
I suspect it will be similar to a rodeo. A lot of snortin, buckin and pissen while everyone in the bleachers is watching trying to decide on the beer and popcorn!
And Dave,
We will all get a chance to ride your sorry ass into the ground good buddy. The question is, will we enjoy Your Rodeo?
A) Yes we will! I’ve already got tickets. Wear your thong!
“And my special thanks to CoB who keeps the lies pure.”
Just as LRH intended…..
Dave,
You’re fucked.
Oh, for crying out loud!!! TFB, I’ve told you time and again, DON’T HOLD BACK!!! It’s not good for your health……
I cannot imagine being David Miscavige without imagining taking a big swan dive off The Golden Gate Bridge, happy on the way down knowing that Total Freedom was fast approaching.
Me too!
We should be so lucky. I suspect he will ride the sinking ship all the way down, screaming at everyone’s incompetence.
“…he will ride the sinking ship all the way down…” The only way this could be better is if the ship is over the Marianna Trench….
Hahahahaha
Blow, blow, blow the man down…
How said scientology wasn’t liberally minded?
Mark Marco, your input reminds me of the last
lines of what Larry Anderson said in the Orientation
film.
(“Blow your brains out or jump off a bridge”).
Actually quite applicable to DM as he from all reports
is not availing himself of Scientology.
As any educated Catholic knows, the Pope has a priest who serves as his confessor, it’s called setting an example. Something DM knows nothing about. You might as well tell him the Pelagian heresy will never take root in the Southern Baptist Church of America.
I think Louis Theroux’s doc may end up having as big an impact as Going Clear if it gets an airing on national TV. He is highly respected and the British public have an insatiable appetite for good material on Scientology. “Scientologists at War” was so popular it has been repeated on Channel 4, (resulting in an old business acquaintance of mine getting back in touch after seeing me on it).
Been looking forward to seeing this but both viewings are already sold out! The wait continues.
Annus Horribilis haha I love it
??
I had that once, Barb Miller! Nasty thing to have. My family couldn’t use the bathroom for months…..
It was, to coin a term, horrible.
Steve Canane also has a book coming out about Scientology in Australia that promises to be…hmm, what’s that word Scientologists love to use? EPIC!!
And monumental. And yes, it is shaping up to be VERY interesting.
Epic AND monumental??? I’m dizzy just thinking about it!
That’s it, Mike! My wife and will be coming to see you at some point. And you can’t hide in your home! I’ll be knocking all day…
Epic AND monumental, and at The Correct Orders of Magnitude!
I believe you’ve said it all, Gus. You know your scino speak!
Hopefully the few remaining Scientology customers will finally decide that the filthy criminals have taken enough of their money and walk away, assuming the head ringleader allows them to escape.
Tuesday morning, and what to my wondering eyes should appear but this laundry list of good news followed by “All this and more that has not yet been disclosed”.
No need to tell me to “stay tuned” – I am tuned!
As always, thanks so much for the work you do, Mike.
I wonder how it will all end. Miscavige is spending money for ideal empty orgs so that he can prove he is using the money in an acceptable way for the IRS. The whales keep giving millions to the IAS so he can keep harassing and spying dissenters, but a lot of people didn’t know what Scientology was all about and now they have a documentary that says a lot about its abusive nature and Scientology’s ranting about it has only enhanced the interest on Going Clear. Sooner or later the dwindling staff wont be able to pay the electricity bills, local taxes and maintenance of the buildings. Sooner or later one brave politician will start asking questions and doubting the party line and the PR shore story; What will Miscavige do then? One thing is for sure: He won’t take a DC8 with Tom Cruise, to join the old man in target 2
I wonder if he’s thinking about exit strategies at this point or will he go down with the ship like a real captain. I’d like to get inside his mind and look around or an hour. I suppose it’s not really possible for him to step down at any point because he’d lose de facto legal immunity as a religious figure. He’s locked into the roller coaster for the rides duration and there are no brakes, I guess .
Having watched too many episodes of American Greed. I am going to say he will go down with the ship not out of nobility but out of denial. So almost all of the scam artists just can’t see the writing on the wall. Remember DM not only lies to bubblites but to himself.
If you get inside his mind, I believe you’ll go insane. Then, you’ll be perfect for the SO…
Haha maybe that is the real ‘new OT’ level – getting inside DM’s mind and going insane.
Are you insane, OSD2??? Just the thought of his mind gives me the creeps…
I figure he’s had various exit strategies planned for awhile now. He’s not a stupid man. It takes a certain amount of intelligence and craftiness to run an empire (not of his making) for years. So he’s planned this out.
My guess is he’s got many accounts with funds stashed away in various forms, in the U.S. and in other countries, he’s got property, and cash at hand, personal wealth, and other forms of property easily converted to cash, and will live out his later years in his French villa, South American castle, Spanish hacienda, and travel the world in style and with prestige.
Remember, there is no real accounting of funds that go to “C.O.B.”, it’s never been open and known, dating back to L.Ron Hubbard’s boxes of cash. Miscavige lives for power, but money is power, and I’m sure he’s got plenty.
His Known net worth is currently 50 million: http://www.therichest.com/celebnetworth/celebrity-business/men/david-miscavige-net-worth/
but that’s KNOWN net worth. He is smart enough to have many sources of income that are not known.
At some point, Miscavige will eventually nominally turn over the reigns of the church to someone else, while still keeping power behind the scenes, but the public face of the organization will change, so that he can blame his successor for the inevitable demise of the church (“it was booming while I was in charge… person “x” was a weak leader who caused the decline of Scn”).
It’s unbelievable that religious leaders are able to amass so much personal tax free wealth. I agree with you, even if he isn’t smart enough to have stashed money on his own, his lawyers and financial advisors would have done it for him. Maybe if he fled to another country charges could be filed against him there, where he doesn’t have religious law protection & the statues are different. Would be nice for someone to get some kind of justice.
Oops statutes, not statues. 😉
Miscavige hijacked the church by flat-out ruthlessness coupled with a degree of viciousness so over the top, no one foresaw, is what I think.
He was inspired, no doubt, which gave him a sort of focus… but intelligence? He really does not show it, certainly not by considering the direction the church has taken. He continues to show an inability to learn from his errors, which for me is the simplest way to measure brain capacity.
I don’t think it will end well for him. I think he is going the very same way as the Old Man.
But he may well live for decades before that comes about.
Meanwhile, more encouraging news is Mikes perception that the church has a half-life of perhaps 5-ten years.
At some point, it would have to look hopeless, even ridiculous for him to stick around. At some point, the church will be losing considerable money, already, every quarter only losing more.
– His love is for money, that is what drives him. I see no human connection.
When the church starts losing enough money, it would most likely drive him away. I doubt there would be a successor, too, since that person would look pretty ridiculous, no matter who it would be. Not too many nuts fit the Miscavige mold, and the world is getting wise, after all. [“Fool me once…blah blah blah…”]
-As long as we keep talking, the sooner the trumpets will play the dirges.
And then, it is hoped, He can go live out the rest of His miserable life in a Bluebird trailer, with an assfull of Vistaril, surrounded by lawyers and sycophants.
Haha maybe that answers the ‘where’s shelley’ question – she busy preparing his hideout bunker for retirement.
” I’d like to get inside his mind and look around or an hour. ”
Be careful what you ask for. I’d say you can see all there is to see in 30 seconds or so. Kind of like being in a one man dingy in the middle of the ocean.
Inside the mind of a madman is decidedly dangerous territory in which to be aimlessly wandering.
[One valuable thing Scientology taught me.]
Dm contemplating this mess he is in…..Hmmm I’d better get OT IX & X out pronto. Where’s Karin?
Wait I’m Karin…I wish I were OT X dammit. Okay I need to change this somehow. These damn movies are killing me. Wait I’ll make a movie….I’ll get my good buddies Tom, John and Kirstie and we will put out a kick ass movie that shows how great I….opps I mean Scn is that will make this Gibney fellow look silly and show how big of a liar he is. I will get some archive stuff from the 1930’s and 1940’s pr movies Hitler put out. I know I can make something good out of that data. Karin call Cruise, Travolta and Alley…..lets fire up this movie! It will make the IRS event look like a 2nd rate commercial…..yah now I’m feeling good again…..Karin where are you??
“Where’s Karin? Wait I’m Karin…” 🙂
good work, Potpie 🙂
Well, she was at my place earlier. I think she digs me, Aqua.
She went out for cigarettes and munchies, back soon.
Thanks, I Yawn! I was wondering where she went.
“Where’s Karin?” “Oh wait, I’m Karin.” Aquamarine you crack me up! LMAO
Thanks ever so but that was Potpie, Cindy 🙂
They were $24.95 and I got a special price of $22.30 for a bulk order.
So many the price went down to $16.99.. The Dali Lama, Pope Francis, George Clooney,
Daniel Craig, Warren Buffett, Donald Trump (President) and 100 others will be getting a copy !!!!
That’s an awesome bulk mail you’re doing there, Jose. Thank you!
Jose, um, Mr. Chung-
perhaps you would send one of those copies off to Bono ?
OMG! Jose, you are da man! Way to go! You’re a one man wrecking crew…..
And David E Love’s book exposing Narconon published September 11, 2015 http://narcononcanada.com/
About time man! These are great news. Thank you Mike.
Holy shit Batman, it was a fucking iceberg! Whattawedonow????????????????
Yo Dave,
I suggest you check the decks for any remaining lifeboats and seeing NONE, kiss your greedy ass goodbye!
Not only was it a fucking iceberg (I knew Reuben Iceberg. He was a Rabbi) but, the ship was filled with steel I-beams! The ship sank within minutes….
Going Clear has not been released in France yet, but I had the chance of seeing it twice and I think it is an outstanding and forceful document that manages to tell the essential items in the story of Scientology and its founder. I feel very grateful towards Lawrence Wright, Alex Gibney and all the brave witnesses who defied the cult of greed.
Scientologists say the documentary is “all lies”. But not only do they not know they are lies, they CAN’T know. They weren’t present during the events related by the witnesses. If everybody is lying in the film then there has to be an explanation about how all the lies concur with each other as well as there not being any really juicy lies about sex for instance. The, “it’s all lies” argument requires a COMPLICATED conspiracy with lots of cloak and dagger stuff. On the other hand, the simpler explanation is that everybody is merely relating their own experience. If we apply Occam’s Razor to decide which side to believe, it doesn’t look good for scientology. Besides, saying something is a lie when you can’t know that it is, makes YOU the liar.
Roger, you made me think of something. I was listening to Alec Baldwin being interviewed by Howard Stern and the subject of the Going Clear documentary came up. Alec appeared on HS because he was promoting ‘Mission Impossible’, in which he has a part. I haven’t seen the film but gleaned that his role in the last installment promises a recurring role that he would very much like to have. Alec admitted that now with a wife, a toddler, and an infant at home, he “needs to work” and is open to roles.
It was very disappointing to me to hear Alec Baldwin say pretty much what you just did about Scientologists with the “all lies” argument. Basically, that he said that he believed that people could “just lie” and that he “didn’t care about it”, meaning the allegations (truth we know) in the film. Alec Baldwin admitted to once having political aspirations and came across to me as a pretty smart guy who actually cared about people. Apparently not, when it comes to working with Tom Cruise.
Its a safe bet that anyone hired for a Tom Cruise film is made to sign something that promises no cult-dissing.
There are celebrities still defending Bill Cosby… Hollywood is its own bubble sometimes. 🙁
Yes, and Joan Crawford, the mother from hell, apparently was much loved by the “little people” who worked on her films, i.e, grips and make up people, the lower orders of production assistants and so forth, to whom she gave little gifts, remembered their kid’s names, birthdays, details like that. Supposedly she was generous and considerate of people who were not considered important at all, and she employed people who answered every single fan letter she got with a personal response signed by her. Plus she was said to be very professional on the set, no temper tantrums, etc. This woman had PR really down. Glad she wasn’t my mother but let’s be fair and give credit where credit is due. When her daughter’s book came out, many people who had experienced “Good Joan” defended her very loudly. Point is that its possible that Cosby and TC are easy to work with, thoughtful and considerate of not just the higher-ups but of everyone. I’m not saying this is so, I’m saying, “Could be”.
well said and agreed! Ted bundy was a really nice guy to everyone as well.
Except of course if you were young, female and he was killing you.
Very true about PR, Aqua. Tom Cruise is well known for remembering “the little people.” He often sends high quality baked goods and luncheons for lower level staff. He’s also known for being very hard working and well mannered, and is highly admired in the entertainment industry. I read an article about Pat Kingsley, Cruise’s ex-PR agent whom he fired in order to hire his sister Lee Ann. Pat said that when Tom fired her, he went to her office in person to do it. Pat asked him if he wouldn’t mind to meet the people who work for her because they had done so much for him over the years, meaning it wasn’t ‘all her’. She said that Tom was very agreeable, and went to each and every person and thanked them and made them feel that they were important. I wish Tom put the same care into the Sea Org members who have done so much for him over the years. Somehow, they are seen as different from people in the entertainment industry.
There are people he uses for cheap labor and then there are people he uses that he actually feels are people that give him a boost in the film industry.
And absolutely, positively, written-in-stone, no actor over 5’5″…..
They might break the bubble if they were any taller lol.
Roger Hornaday, Reply
Thankyou so much. As Ann would say, it is a pleasure to be meeting you. Reading your post was exciting, if I may b so personal to say, because I knew I was talking to guy who knows, I get you and thanks for being here.
Insightful, I would say.
But, now I have to say, (reflecting your thoughts…)
that the one who can’t know, meaning being unable to know, is a person for whom reality is lost. Along with that loss whatever it is, would be the ability to lie. A person for whom truth is denied, by falsehood or by trauma, that person is lost, to the degree of having given up his identity to the controller, which is indeed his purpose. I hope that made sence, for everybody, because that is the true danger of scn.
date-agent mm
Thank you Marco. If I say something is so or is not so when it is impossible for me to know either way, then I am liar. Perhaps I am lying to myself but if I lie to myself I will extend the lie to others. I haven’t lost the ability to lie, I have lost the ability to NOT lie.
roger that
Great post Mark… Speaking of Ann, where has she been the last few days? Anyone know if she’s ok?
Lol I found her!
Come-up-ins is about time. I won’t hold my breath tip the abuses stop and that includes disconnections.
Priceless!!
I am the kid from Tomorrowland, zooming through, seat secured by both hands gripped
and very blue eyes.
Yay! The hits keep coming!
The end of Scamology draws nigh. Actions such as this movie Clearing the planet of the false info put out about Scn, Hubbard & DM coupled with having no OTs ever produced will crash the scam. That latest ploy regarding 8 & 9 is to squeeze the money out of its members before the end.
+1! Nicely said.
🙂
The end draws nigh.
They have had more bad press in the last year than in the last 5 years combined. And more bad press in the last 5 years than in all 50 years combined.
LMAO!!! Damn, Dave, I wish I had thought of that! Still laughing! That’s REALLY throwing it back in their collective faces! Now that’s some funny shit!!! And it’s an instant ‘Classic!’
Looks like the Leah Remini book and publicity tour are going to be a rip-roaring time. As usual, Miscavige’s best possible response, for himself and the church he owns, is radio silence. But he can’t help himself. He will issue a well-timed “Karin Pouw” missive or two that will only serve to underline his nuttiness, pettiness and assholiness. Damn, if he only revives his previous pokes at Leah, that would be just fine. “Self absorbed… attention seeking… “
Think I’ll send Dave a length of rope for Christmas.
And a truckload of Scotch.
Make it short in keeping with the theme.
Just enough for the noose, plus a stout knot.
I’ll get Dave a new set of iron shoes for Christmas. It’ll go nicely with the rope…..
The snow ball keeps getting bigger. In fact I believe it has increased 57X in the last 5 years.
No no no; I believe you mean 64x
Yep! 64x! That’s what the man said!
That will seem like a small number in 2016.
Infinitesimal small…
Matt I was just thinking the same thing. Looking back since I left in 2006 it seems like lifetimes ago and the exposure of the con just keeps getting better and better. This may seem engramic for some but really it’s the only pathway to healing from this rather bizarre event in history, the Church of Scientology Incident.
We all have to admit, though, that was one incredible con that Hubbard pulled off. Breathtaking even. Just the sheer audacity of it all like exteriorizion, reading minds, never getting sick, perfect memory, control over MEST, IQs so high NASA is looking to hire them. And then it all turns out to be made up stuff. As it’s been said here before, PT Barnum would have been very proud.
Sometimes Dude, you just all the fun out of it.
At what age did you debunk kids of the Easter Bunny? Well… at what about Santa Claus? Mr Claus would be awfully pissed at you.
Wait….WHAT??? Santa Claus is not real? And the Easter Bunny too? Why would you crush my dreams like that, I Yawn? I’ve nothing left to live for. I might as well…..Oh, hell, I’ll just go surfing…..
It is way too cold out to go surfing OSD. I actually got to use a real blanket the last few nights. Friday though it looks like we are back into my surfing weather…. Don’t freeze out there!
2016 = GAAH! Phase II
Nice to see the planet finally going Clear. It’s about time.
Yep! 🙂
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Now that’s some funny shit!
capitol G, yes, very nice indeed.
That foto, incidently Mr Dan?, it looks so beautiful and loving. Gave me something of a strike, actually, just knowing it is real people, is all I have to explain it…
Thanks, another reason to be happy.
And I’m going to buy that movie, maybe twice, just to believe in and support all the men and women that made it happen. God willing, Truth meets the light of day, and Scientology?
Going, Going Gone, God Willing, clearly.
LOL!! Nice to see the planet finally Going Clear!! AHAHAHAHAHAHA. Perfect!
“It sucks to be Miscavige” – GOOD, It’s about time!
Mine’s already in the mail.
Here’s to an excellent Golden Age of Annus Horribilis II.
Hip Hip Hooray
Robert – you beat me to it, but I believe it deserves repeating:
Hip Hip Hooray!
I agree Roger and Robert…it’s like a REAL celebration of expansion and growth.
Hip Hip Hooray! Stand up. Sit down. Stand up. Sit down. Stand up. Sit down.
The house of cards surrounding King Rat is falling apart faster and faster.
Does anyone think progress has been made to revoke their status as a religion? Or any idea if we might get our money returned to us without having to battle it out following their stupid routing form (that makes you go in session by the way)?
Hey Toot,
If you are looking to get a refund of payments made for services which you did not receive ( Refund of AP), I think there is a policy on that and a session is optional. You might also consider resigning from the cult first and then, not being a member, you would simply be requesting a return of the deposit you made for future services which you will never use.
On the battling it out part, I don’t think the Cult knows any other way ……..yet!
After Davey gets done with the 15 round fight he is in, I’d look for Him to be on the matt taking a ten count sometime next year. He will not get up from this fight.
Yo Dave,
Stay down good buddy. Every time you think about staggering to your feet you are going to get yet another beating. Count on it. The IRS will be coming soon as well ………… then you can show your ’93 event yet again to the sobbing cult!
Maybe everyone at the irs should get copies of going clear for Christmas to help move them towards revoking their tax exemption.
It’s not the status as a religion, it’s tax exempt status that we’re all talking about. Obviously, it’s a business! Nothing more than a global business scam pretending it’s a religion.
I’ll celebrate like mad when it all falls apart…
And it’s a stretch calling it a business. It’s a ponzi scheme selling feel good except in the end you don’t feel so good!
I know where I can lay my hands on some Frazetta artwork if anyone would like a print! Dave sold this stuff back in the day for ASI saying that it was an incredible investment for future returns………. and you could support your cult all the while. Ah yes, another day, another fucking by your friendly self help cult! The gift that keeps on giving!!
Once again, I am not worthy, master! It truly is a Ponzi scheme. One of the best on the planet!
I don’t think it would be premature to start celebrating already.
And I feel rather strongly about that opinion.
I’ve got beer and munchies at my place, Mark. All we need is a Going Clear DVD!
perfect
i’m just glad i still got 50 years left and all these pretzels… you are T H E man, surfer
(John Locke too. And lets invite Valerie, Oracle and Aqua and and of course Ann. Oh man, let’s just call it open season on the beach!) i’ll spend the extra dime to put the movie up on a outdoor big screen! Bonfire on the side maybe.
Wow.
Now that’s a party, man. Huntington Beach, right? Isn’t that the one between Redondo-Manhattan? i could pass away on that beach and not be any less happy, just for being there. No no no wait, that’s Hermosa Beach, doesn’t matter, same story, Bliss-mm
Money returned???
There’s another “think” in the background about all this. We aren’t the only ones anticipating the demise of Dave’s Kingdom. There’s a huge amount of money involved and the lawyers who’ve been working diligently with miscavige protecting him and his wealth know all too well their gravy train will eventually come to an end in that regard, they aren’t stupid and will be counting what’s left in the coffers as potentially their $ money or a big piece of it anyway. Trust me they have contingency plans for all eventualities, and can’t wait for the shit to hit the fan, the prise is just too great. Plus they don’t understand the term loyalty and would circle him like sharks if and when the opportunity presented itself – they know too much and would feel pretty darn good about that! Plus there’s the lawyers with cases against the Cof$ pending – I think a smile or two will develop in their camp as well
Lots of local politicians are lawyers too and having a Cof$ in their domain with a healthy real estate price tag presents a good game too. The demise of the Cof $ will be a good thing for all sorts of reasons, you don’t even have to know the first thing about it as a religion or whatever but a select few will benefit greatly if Dave takes a fall on US soil with all that dough intact.
Dave has no choice but set up shop in Columbia or some such as the general consensus grows about his demise. Only he can fuck that up, his insane arrogance will override common sense imo. He has no concept of himself ever failing.
Then there’s the parishioners who want their money back, once again the lawyers will step up to the plate, grinning.
Yep, interesting times ahead.
Great comment I yawn… I seem to remember reading (probably here) that technically DM isn’t the only one with power, there are other people that could force him out. But as I recall some are lawyers on the board and others maybe don’t realize they have that power. Something to do with the guy that’s trying to oust him from the inside, that wrote an article about it??? It will be interesting to see what happens… I’d be curious to see how much money they took in this year vs last, and how much next year. With all of this bad press the figures have to be declining (as mike’s stats show us each week).
Exactly O’o. Interesting times ahead.
It’s kind of like the end of apartheid in Sth Africa. For many decades so much money was flowing in SA with minerals and diamonds etc. who would have ever dreamed that those that run politics would have allowed such dramatic change to have ever taken place? However, the change truly came from within when the smart cookies holding the purse strings realised that if they had to adopt change due to outside influences they may as well be causative about it and promptly went about refashioning the new money flows to their advantage.
And so it will be with miscavige and scientology, the faceless men of power will see that change is necessary and then concluding the current scene has been milked for all it’s worth.
A new (maybe destructive) period will be heralded in and those with the cream of the dough will remain exactly where they are – in the shadows.
Great analogy on sa. Loss of money usually prompts leadership change, I’d make a good bet that your scenario will prove correct in the end. Hopefully though we will all see some type of justice in regards to cob before its all said and done. 😉
Sorry for any mistakes I’m typing and walking lol.