In the US it s Mother’s Day today.
To all you mothers who are readers here, have a wonderful day. I know it can be tough for those disconnected from their mother or mothers disconnected from their children (or in some cases both), but still it is a day to celebrate the wonder and magic of motherhood and remember that it’s never too late for things to change.
Our old friend Brian Lambert reached out to me yesterday and asked if he quickly finished something he was writing, could I put it up today in honor of his mother.
Always thought provoking and usually eliciting a variety of perspectives, here is the latest from Brian. I especially enjoyed his last paragraph.
THETANS
If I had never tasted an orange before but you had, you could not accurately describe what it tastes like to me. The best you could do is say what it is like through inference and association. “It tastes similar to a lemon but not so sour, sweeter yet just as juicy.” “The skin is similar in make up but orange not yellow.” “Both are composed of sections.”
The circumstance of the lemon’s existence can be used, through inference, to describe the taste of the orange. But that description can never accurately describe it, unless I’ve tasted an orange directly.
It is the same with discussion of the existence of the soul, or in Scientology the Thetan.
It’s impossible to argue for the existence of an incorporeal independent conscious being, if you have not experienced it. The validation of the existence of a soul/thetan can only be accomplished through inference and association, which is circumstantial evidence.
In the example above, when two people have tasted an orange they can share their experience of an orange with knowledge based on direct perception, the taste of an orange. Then it is possible to discuss the nature of the orange with reason, intelligence, agreement or disagreement, without faith, belief or hocus pocus supporting the dialog. Both have tasted the orange. The existence of which is not in question. The existence of the orange is self-evident truth through direct personal experience.
Although I have had countless subjective experiences that prove to me the reality of an independent conscious existence apart from the body, I can only attempt to convey my experience to non-believers or non-experiencers, through inference and personal circumstantial evidence, that I experienced objectively in the “real” world.
My subjective experience of the soul can easily be relegated to the garbage bin of delusion, wishful thinking, magical thinking, brainwashing, suggestibility, and me being prone to superstition. And that may be a reasonable conclusion for you, based on your personal experience, or your lack of it, with this subject.
To those who have “tasted” the existence of the soul, no argument is necessary. We share a direct experience and need no proof. We can share a fun conversation about the nature of consciousness, and it’s independence from matter.
The idea of immortality and God can then be discussed without judging each other; for being superstitious as unlettered rubes—the enemy of rationality and science, the judgements, rightly or wrongly of atheists and materialists.
This is my argument for the existence of the soul/thetan through circumstantial, objective, material world evidence, that I have actually experienced in THIS world.
CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE: My Mother’s Death
“Brian, I’m ready to go!” My mother said to me on a morning phone call. My mom was almost 90 years old. My dad was gone. Her best friend of her entire life was recently killed in a car crash. Her sister was dead, brother dead, and most of her intimate generational connections had all flown the coup.
My mom wasn’t angry.
She wasn’t sad, in pain, or frustrated.
She simply told me, “I’m done!”
My mom and I always shared the belief in reincarnation and the spiritual side of life. Her father, my Grandpa, was a sort of mystic. People would call him for physical and spiritual healing. I remember as a very young boy with a stomach ache, Grandpa put his hands on my abdomen and my pain vanished!
So, in my family, we had a non-dogmatic acquaintance with the spiritual side of life.
Many are the stories in my family of objective experiences, not belief, validating the spiritual side of life. No religious dogma was ever preached in my family. Yet my mom and Grandpa were deeply spiritual people. They lived the principles without wearing the labels. Mom and Grandpa were living examples of their spiritual principles, a far superior virtue than flouting a church membership card. It was my mom who supported and protected my youthful spiritual interests, and nurtured my experimentation by allowing me to do so.
Back to my mom and our phone call. “Brian, I thought I was dying last night of a heart attack. I was so glad that I laid back in my bed and was ready to go.” She continued, “I fell asleep and awoke the next day and was so angry! Dam it! I’m still alive!!!“ Then she told me she got angry with God. “What’s the matter? Don’t you want me?!” My mom is a strong powerful women. The idea that she was scolding God for not taking her, was extremely funny to me. I’ve been on that side of her scorching admonishments. This moment was hilarious. It was so fascinating to be speaking about death like this with my mom. We were talking about it as two dispassionate observers, completely lacking grief, sorrow, loss, or fear of the unknown. I cherished that moment with her and was proud to be her son.
Then I asked her, “Y‘know mom, some people say what keeps people attached to the body at the end of life, is having unfinished business. Do you think you have anything left undone?” She says, “Hmmmm, let me think about that. We can talk again later tonight on the phone.” “Ok mom, let’s do that.” We said our goodbyes and hung up.
At the end of this day, I picked up my wife from work as usual. We went to dinner, then out of nowhere I began having a strange feeling. The experience was very palpable. I told my wife, “Sweetie, I’m feeling a bit weird for some reason and I don’t know why.” During dinner I hardly said a word to her. She asked me what was wrong. I told her I did not know. I was feeling forced to be introspective. It was difficult to communicate, and besides, I felt unwilling to leave this feeling of deep introspection. I was visibly uneasy.
When we got home and I went immediately to my recording studio to be alone, trying to intuit what was happening. I put a piece of music on, a five minute movie cue that I had just finished the night before. I thought the soothing tracks would help me experience what was happening. The music track was composed for the death scene of a Catholic Hispanic man.
As the music started playing, tears started falling down my cheeks. I had no idea why this was happening. Then I heard a voice within me as a lucid daydream. “Brian, I know what’s holding me back.” Not being an instantaneous believer in these sorts of things, I doubted it for a moment, and then thought to myself, “Let’s just go with it; it can’t harm me entertaining a daydream.” Then I heard my mother’s voice say, ”I’m sorry for being so hard on you as a teenager.” My mom never apologized to me for anything. As a teen I was getting into trouble, doing drugs, running with street gangs, and causing general mayhem in my family.
I said back to her, “Thank you mom I appreciate it, but you had a right as a mom to be so concerned. I was doing some bad things.” Mom was very hard on me. It was a time in our culture where punishment acted in place of instruction. But as an adult I knew she did the best she could. It was also interesting that she apologized to me in this lucid daydream state. Again, it was not characteristic of her to apologize. She never apologized to me.
I felt an intimate communion with my dear mother during this subjective experience, all the while tears where still streaming down my face. I found my hands in prayer, but I wasn’t praying. An inner voice then said, “Look at the clock.”
I looked at the clock and it said 9:30 PM. I stayed in this introspective meditative state with tears falling until the phone rang at 10 pm. It was my younger brother, Michael. He informed me that mom left her body. I asked him when?
He said, “She passed at 9:30 PM.”
From this very personal and intimate story, I’m sharing my circumstantial evidence of the existence of the soul. Here are the key points:
1. In the objective world, I asked my mom what was holding her back from dying?
2. That night she comes to me in my subjective world resolving the question, of what’s holding her back.
3. I was instructed to look at the clock in my objective world.
4. My brother then calls me, confirming the undeniable connection between the subjective and objective world experiences. My mother died at 9:30 PM after telling me what was holding her back from going. She was now free to go.
I know many of you are thinking, this may be just coincidence. But to me it takes more blind faith to NOT see the conscious intelligence orchestrating this experience, justifying the existence of a materially independent soul.
Happy Mother’s Day and much love to all mothers living in this world, and to all mothers that have gone on the the next. They are still alive.
Brian’s mom
Thank You. I really needed this. Sometimes the pain seems unbearable. But knowing I am not alone makes it ‘ok’ for today. This blog does MUCH more than present the news. Thank you again, Mike.
Truth is we don’t get to pick our biological parents. The best parents in the world can have a child that brings them nothing but heartache & grief & sometimes shame. The WORST parents can have a stellar child who is often unappreciated & never valued.
It’s the luck of the draw. As we become adults we can chose to disengage in a relationship with parents who have hurt us…or we can continue to be involved in SOME type of relationship with them, & that’s a personal decision.
My father supported his family financially but he was always emotionally distant from us. We rarely got words of praise for our accomplishments. When Grandchildren came, he disengaged from them as well. He died when my son was 7, having ONLY seen him 4 to 5 times in my son’s entire life. It was his choice to be like that, so it was loss..but my son’s loss as well. My mother also wasn’t all that interested in being a Grandmother or being involved in her OWN Grandchildren’s lives.
I learned pretty quickly after our two children were born…..that if I wanted Grandparents in my children’s lives, I’d have to depend on older friends…& luckily we found PLENTY of Senior Citizen friends who were willing to fill that gap, so my children were well loved & had great ADOPTED Grandparents from our group of friends.
Of course, it was painful to have parents like that…but that’s the way it was. When my mother became ill, THEN she depended on me 100%…by then one of her sons was dead & the other had too many problems of his own & her Grandkids who hardly knew her wondered why she wasn’t that interested in their lives. She died 5 years ago…her BIRTHDAY THIS YEAR FELL ON MOTHER”S DAY.
It’s all that more sad for a parent who choses a religious system where a child and parent cannot have a bond based on a “religious belief system”….that is NOT a religion.
“Happy Mother’s Day and much love to all mothers living in this world, and to all mothers that have gone on the the next. They are still alive.”
Beautiful – thank you.
We have all arrived to the world through a mother a father made it into and we are all the owner of a planet together to do the best of in our common interest.
Hubbards asshole was very productive in the making of scientologists but he couldn’t make it against mothers.
Hello Brian.
I found your piece to be extremely interesting and appealing – especially to someone like me. I especially liked the part about the oranges and lemons.
What is it about me that made your piece resonate? Well, I may explain in detail at some other time. But for today, I will just say that I had never experienced any loving feelings from my mother. It is a long and painful story but I don’t want to cast a shadow over anyone else’s feelings today.
You wrote a beautiful piece and it served to remind me there are some people who experienced nothing but pain and torment from our parents. Most parents know how to treat their children and how to help them grow into loving adults. But not all of them. And it doesn’t require parents to be alcoholics or druggies to torture their children. There are many other reasons and children have no idea why they are being treated that way.
Thank you very much for reminding me that not all parents are monsters. Sometimes I lash out at others and later, when I feel terrible about it, I realize the reasons have much to do with my own unfinished feelings towards my parents.
I never had the benefit of loving parents nor the benefit of therapy to help me deal with that and it was only long after I became an adult that I realized how much I really needed that.
So thank you once more for a thought-provoking piece that reminded me most people were raised by loving and supportive parents.
October 28 for me…. But don’t go reminding me of it as I’ve gotten out of the habit of doing so. I suspect scientology’s “truths” were what finally soured birthday celebrations for me. The last one( of 5) that I experienced/suffered while at Flog was what pushed me over the edge to clinical depression and being beached about 10 months later.
Hello Brian – I appreciate your post. We could have a good exchange of ideas, it sounds like. Be well.
My mother is an FSO staff member. I got declared and of course she disconnected. In recent years, her ex-Scientology brothers have re-established communication. She’s aloof to the family.
When you think you’re a spiritual being, timeless and deathless, your notion of family is devalued, because you’re not actually bodies related to each other.
My mother is lost to me, but she’s not dead, so mourning her is confusing. Until she dies, there’s a physical chance I could see her again.
“When you think you’re a spiritual being, timeless and deathless, your notion of family is devalued, because you’re not actually bodies related to each other.“
That’s what happens when Hubbard is teaching about spiritual matters. I see it the opposite. I see an infinite positive value in seeing souls. I’m sorry Hubbard’s indoctrination has brought you to this.
And I’m sorry about your mom.
My mom and I saw each other as souls. We loved and cherished each other. And because I see souls, I still love my mom and she loves me. So it’s the opposite of the nasty dogmas taught by Hubbard.
Sorry about your mom, that’s terrible.
Imaberrated, I see it as being: When you think of yourself as ONLY a spiritual being, completely separate and unconcerned about the body, family can be relegated to a position of inconsequence, of no importance in your day-to-day operations. That’s how they can ignore the 2nd Dynamic pretty much completely as merely sex or some other transitory physical sensations. Love isn’t anything important, only the body’s chemical reactions mucking up the system, maybe even some few remaining memories of feeling connected to another for a while. If necessary, those feelings can be audited out so they don’t interfere with your production, but only if your stats are exemplary and there are sufficient resourses to allow those sessions.
Happy mother’s day to all mothers.
My two daughters are young mothers. It is a sight to see them.
Brian thank you so much for sharing this experience. Personally, I conceive each one, more like an expression of Life that experiences. Points of view, conscience (of Life) .
The thetan risks becoming an individualization of a self, more identified with what one ‘thinks’ of being or having been. While in reality we have only ever been consciousness in the present.
Your interpretation of the subjective is comparable to any other person of faith.
You have assigned signifance to a narrative validated by personal intuition.
Why is your narrative/methodology closer to “the truth” than a scientologist’s?
You previously asserted the value of reason yet here your penultimate statement argues for its rejection.
You have also previously claimed that scientology leads people away from truth primarily because Hubbard was a pathological liar. Why should this have any bearing on the intuitive ability of a scientologist to form an assumption/belief?
What makes your rejection of reason any better than a scientologist’s?
My essay was not based on intuition and faith. I think you are reading into it what you want to see.
What is different from me and a Scientologist? For one I enjoy when I’m disagreed with. In my path ofcthe spirit there is not only one teacher, one teaching. The teachers in my tradition praise the virtue of other teachers.
Other teachers write personal commentaries about major scriptures. Nobody is condemned for not belonging to the thought club. No one is disconnected from because they quit the thought club.
Kindness, compassion, empathy, considering the happiness of others, having sympathy and being accountable for ones actions are tenants of my path.
You may consider me delusional. I’m ok with that. There are those who will never acknowledge the spiritual side of life as valid. Some people are materialists and atheists.
And their views are valid for them being conditioned by their experience and what they have reasoned for themselves.
The only similarity between me and a Scientologist is that we both acknowledge a soul. The similarity pretty much stops there.
Also, I do not go to the punishment chamber in my church for thinking unapproved thoughts. There is a vast difference between my spirituality and the con of Scientology.
Did you know that Sir Isaac Newton wrote more material on religion and spirituality than he did on science.
Reason and faith do not need to be incompatible.
But again to address you original thoughts, my essay was an argument using circumstantial evidence not faith or intuition. Maybe read it again.
I’m ok with you thinking I’m a deluded superstitious person. I’m completely ok with it. With this type of topic I was expecting it.
Thanks for representing that point of view mwestern
Are you an Indy?
I’m more interested in seeing how far your argument goes, not necessarily to try and “make you wrong.” Advocatus diaboli and all that. 😇😈
I’m also suggesting a degree of consistency. Your similarity with scientologists goes beyond the mere belief in a soul. It is also in the methodology you both use to get there.
You assert that consciousness/soul exists and is independent of the body. Your conclusion is seemingly based on anecdotal evidence, the subjective, an inner voice, a feeling. This is the same type of evidence the CoS uses to promote its services. The same type of evidence that foolproof, marildi and other religionists reluctantly fall back on when attempting to justify their beliefs.
Which is totally fine btw. I can argue from that side too, if needed. But where’s the fun in that?
I don’t doubt your beliefs bring you great comfort. I don’t doubt the value of a scientologist’s belief either. But few would claim a scientologist’s mental gymnastics moves the argument in any way from mythos into logos. There’s a reason why so few indies post here anymore. So it’s a matter of both atheistic consistency as well as a courtesy to them that I treat your paranormal claims in exactly the same manner as I would theirs.
And they are claims. You are not suggesting a mere possibility. You aren’t coming from a position of not knowing. You have readily formed (and presented) your conclusion.
The implication that your testimony is in any way evidence of its conclusion is fallacious. And absurd. You have presented no verifiable evidence. Nothing I can independently evaluate. To accept your conclusion, in the absence of any evidence, is to take a leap of faith. This is the rejection of reason.
To dismiss an argument is not necessarily the same thing as the dismissal of its theme. One can remain open to a possibility despite the logical frailty of one man’s proposition.
Again, I am only trying to be consistent. I hope you don’t think I am being snarky or rude, but take this in the spirit it’s sincerely intended.
HMD 🇺🇸💐
“The most educated person in the world now has to admit that he or she knows less and less but at least knows less and less about more and more.” — Christopher Hitchens
“You assert that consciousness/soul exists and is independent of the body. Your conclusion is seemingly based on anecdotal evidence, the subjective, an inner voice, a feeling“
Actually that is not my argument. I actually see the weakness is subjectivity being proof. Please read it again and we can discuss anything you want. If you choose.
Man’s you don’t have to be afraid of offending me. I am unaffendable.
It should be “And” not “Man’s”
Can I, at least, take a shot at it? I’m pretty good as pissing people off.
Go for it! I always need testing. Who knows, maybe I can uncover another flaw. Then I’d say thank you. When they are hidden they are a social nuisance.:-)
Its weakness hasn’t prevented you from assigning a rightness to its conclusion. That’s a leap of faith that you’re welcome to make but it’s no different to the usual “OT Phenomena” guff found in Advance. Your key points are but interpretations, subject to all manner of cognitive filters and biases. Just replace the clock or the phone call with car keys or a parking space and voila.
If I’m missing something here, let me know. Or not, it’s up to you. Just telling me to re-read your post, however, is a non-answer and unhelpful.
Actually it is Mwestern. When you tell me that my argument for spiritual realities is based on only subjective feelings, you are totally telling me you did not read the essay accurately.
I do not want to revisit and have a dialog with you with ideas I have already addressed. You are missing the entire point of the essay.
Maybe read it without judgement first so you can read the obvious point of the essay.
Your call.
Then tell me. Where is the objectivity in your interpretation of events and the significances you have assigned?
The time it took for you to reply could have been used to show me where you think I am going wrong.
Instead, you opted for a non-answer comparable to that given by a course supervisor (“what do your materials state?”)
If you want to make the case for reason then, by all means, apply it.
Basically when you read the first part, not my mom’s passing, I make the argument that subjective experiences can never be effective or reasonable in conveying these things. Completely opposite of what you said I did. Which made me think you did not read it accurately. I still think that’s the case.
I’ll try to reiterate the points I’ve already made.
You can never describe the taste of an orange to a person who has not tasted it. Only through inference.
The only argument I can make to a person who thinks the existence of the soul is bunk is through circumstantial evidence. That’s the best I can do. And it’s an imperfect argument as direct evidence is lacking. I am honoring that not warring against reason like an unlettered rube.
Circumstantial Evidence is also known as indirect evidence. It is distinguished from direct evidence, which, if believed, proves the existence of a particular fact without any inference or presumption required. Circumstantial evidence relates to a series of facts other than the particular fact sought to be proved. The party offering circumstantial evidence argues that this series of facts, by reason and experience, is so closely associated with the fact to be proved that the fact to be proved may be inferred simply from the existence of the circumstantial evidence.
So in my example is my subjective experience of the inner voice of my mother; not provable.
The evidence which makes it circumstantial is the this inner voice telling me to look at the clock and it said 9:30 pm.
My brother calls me at 10pm and told me that mom past at 9:30pm which was exactly the time she told me what was holding her back, which was our morning conversation that she will get back to me and tell me what may be holding her back from leaving her body.
So at that point it was not just intuitional subjectivity. The voice was subjective, I agree with you. But I also described that in my approach. The subjective alone has the limitation of me being deluded.
But in the real world, in the objective world, my mom died at the exact time i was asked to look at the clock.
Next point:
I cannot convince you with this. It’s simply circumstantial evidence. You can still consider me deluded because I can be a nut case and making this all up right?
The key to the story was my brother telling me, not subjectively, not intuitionally, not my belief, in the real world a definite connection to my subjective voice asking me to look at the clock.
My mom had been on the verge of death for months. She sounded fine on the phone that morning. We. We’re planning to talk again on the phone. For all I know she could have stayed alive for many more months.
Out of all the time in the day, I’m asked to look at a clock which was the exact time of my mother dying after my subjective voice conveyed to me what was holding her back from dying.
Many people will get it. And many will not. That is why I addressed non believers and non experiences with respect by acknowledging if you haven’t experienced these things directly; inference, associative logic and circumstantial evidence is not enough. It is obviously not enough for you and I honor that as our point of view.
It’s ok, I don’t mind agreeing to disagree. I do not judge you for not thinking like me.
But if numbers mean anything, I got more appreciation on this blog than questioning my capacity for reason and objectivity.
I used reason in my essay. You may not think so. I’m cool with that too.
Thanks Mwestern. There are many materialists and atheists out there who consider the existence of a conscious independent soul the product of superstition.
I’m not interested in convincing anyone of anything. I was simply sharing a beautiful story of my precious mom’s passing. And my personal experience with things of the spirit.
Of which I have many more.
Stay tuned!
“The key to the story was my brother telling me, not subjectively, not intuitionally, not my belief, in the real world a definite connection to my subjective voice asking me to look at the clock.”
This “definite connection” is neither definite nor objective. You cannot reasonably establish it even is a connection. This is the leap of faith. The notion of a pattern. The assignation of significance. Interpretation. A feeling. Susceptible to all the various cognitive cooties we are typically haunted by.
So yes, it is entirely subjective.
Arguably rooted in the search for structure, for patterns, for meaning, for bringing order to chaos. (The subject of a future post, perhaps).
If you had walked the path of reason you would have stopped at the cliff edge and admired the view. Not only did you jump, you seemed to suggest you were taking the most logical route down. Most odd. And after your previous love letter to reason. That triggered me, I admit it. 😊
I do appreciate your response, however. Although it shows how faith and reason are ultimately irreconcilable, imho. Something all believers should keep in mind next time they mock scientologists for their “crazy” beliefs.
☮️
Last comment from me –
First thank you for the dialog. It’s a great subject and an ancient debate. You and I won’t solve it here. Better minds than ours have had this debate.
Intellectual elitism, the hallmark of being a Scientologist, once was characterized by blind faith.
After the colossal betrayal some still have intellectual elitism but it is now translated into blind doubt. It’s the same mindset. You are that (you have evaluated my ability to think clearly, and I am returning the favor)
Must be true, must not be true. I’ve always been a fan of balance.
Thanks for the exchange Mr. J 😉
You are welcome to comment anytime on any of my posts. And I will respond to you as authentically as I can.
I’m not interested in agreement. I am interested in clarity.
You and I have different world views. I do not need to change yours or point out how inferior they are to my rarified talents of reason.
When emotion dominates religion it becomes fanaticism. When reason dominates philosophy it becomes arrogance.
We need a balance of reason and feeling.
Your imbalance of reason completely missed that this story was about the death of my mother. Your alienation from feeling barred your perception of it as the dominant story. Your need to be perceived as the champion of reason clouded your reason with arrogance.
I’m sharing an observation. A dispassionate observation.
It is reasonable for me to do so.
I hope you can achieve a balance MrJ.
You made an argument. I countered it. That’s all.
I never once denied you your truth.
I never once denied even the possibility.
The conversation was solely about reasoning.
And the difference between objective and subjective.
Now you are resorting to ad hominem and appeals to emotion.
There is no need to make this personal.
It’s okay that we disagree. 🕊️
The claims Brian makes with regard to his spirituality are wholly subjective claims. Not objective – subjective. He makes no similar claims for anyone else. He is not attempting to impose his viewpoint of his own spirituality on anyone else. His viewpoints and experiences are SUBjective and not OBjective. Now, you can argue and analyze the validity of his SUBjective claims but don’t argue them as if they were OBjective because they’re not! Not ALL experiences are objective. Many viewpoints can be and are subjective viewpoints – if you don’t agree, argue them as such. And by the way, just because a viewpoint is subjective doesn’t mean it can’t be true in an objective sense too. It doesn’t automatically follow, but subjectivity doesn’t rule out the possibility of objective truth.
My mother’s friend could not become pregnant back in the day. Married at age 20. Ten years married, nothing wrong with her per the doctors, nothing wrong with her husband per the doctors. She was a Roman Catholic, not that devout. Her priest, or somebody, I forget, suggested she do a Novena. (Something about a Novena and I don’t even know what a Novena is btw). Ok, she did the Novena and shortly afterwards became pregnant with her first child. She was ecstatic. She had two more pregnancies swiftly following the birth of her first. About 5 years later she had 3 healthy children. She attributed the pregnancies, after a decade of barreness, to the Novena(s). This was her reality. Her subjective reality. Now, one can argue and say, “No, that wasn’t it, there HAD to be something else she did differently, it wasn’t the Novena that allowed the pregnancy, its impossible.” One certainly could argue that with her, but to what avail? For her, it was very real that the Novena(s) gave her 3 pregnancies at a point when she was beyond all hope of ever conceiving a child.
So, obviously they did SOMETHING, if only to her own mind, which possibly changed her body chemistry in some way and allowed her to conceive? Look, I’m just thinking out loud because I have no freaking idea! Nor does anyone else 🙂 It was HER subjective reality – VERY real to her! We loved her, she was satisfied that her solution worked, she was happy, we might have our own opinions but we wouldn’t shoot hers down!
Aqua,
It seems to me the best thing about her result of those novinas and the pregnancies is that your friend became firmly convinced in the value of her Catholic religion and if someone had tried to indoctrinate her into the scam, they wouldn’t have had a chance.
I believe she wore the result like a suit of armor – protection against hubbard’s scam and no matter what anyone’s opinion of other religions and specifically, the Catholic religion, I think it served your friend very well. It made her invulnerable to hubbard’s scam.
So, on that limited basis, I say, “Hat’s off to that priest”.
All very possible, Skyler. Whatever works, you know? No one got hurt. No animals were harmed 🙂
Also what do you mean “my rejection of reason”. Can you show me where I rejected reason. Maybe I can learn something.
Who says that “reason” is the be all and end all?
I really enjoyed your post. Ron Miscavige suggested I look it up.
I’ll look forward to your appearance on his podcast this weekend.
Thank you Dan, I agree reason needs to be balanced with feeling to be, well………. balanced! Without feeling it can descend into elitism. I know, that’s been my story. I’ve had to dig myself out of that pit.
I love the analogy of the garden of flowers.
It’s the use of reason and the science of gardens that causes the garden to happen. But why is a garden created? It’s to enjoy the intuitional feeling and perception of beauty.
Does a person who is enjoying a sunset always busy his noisy mind with atmospheric science? No, it’s the quiet mind completely devoid of reason that is empty enough to be filled with feeling perception.
I think these two are the wings of the same bird.
These two: reason and feeling are two distinct ways of seeing. After all, the reason and science of the garden is in fact honoring the perception of beauty which is feeling; in the heart. Reason is in the mind.
Both are needed in my view. Some religionists are imbalanced and live through emotion rejecting reason. Some materialists are stuck in their heads and treat the feeling nature like a mental problem or a flaw in reasoning.
Thank you Dan. I’m looking forward to Ron’s back and forth also.
I believe the topic of the show will be Spirituality After Scientology. Ron and I will share with each other what we have learned. I love that guy, he is still a seeker of spiritual truth.
I can only wish that mwesten would read this!
Mwestern, I see open dialog as welcome here. I also see your:
“What makes your rejection of reason any better than a scientologist’s?” to be unnecessarily critical of Brian’s contribution to the group discussion. IMO, Brian would have good reason to take that pretty personally as a flame.
Brian, what a beautiful woman and story. She looks happy and in good health with her Queen for a Day tiara. I have also had theta conversations with people miles away and it does prove the existence of the spirit. Thanks for sharing this with us.
Your welcome Cindy. Thanks for appreciating my moms photo. I miss her dearly. But in the quite moments of feeling, I do feel her. Maybe my next essay will be about telepathy and the various times it was impossible to not consider it as the reason for things that happened.
We live in a magnetic world. Energy is everywhere. Thought is an energy. Energy can do stuff.
I’m sure this topic can bring out the daggers. But what the hell! Bring it on! I love the dialog. Differing ideas are invigorating to me.
Poor Hubbard, what a limit he put on himself condemning critical ideas. By doing so he effectively closed all doors on learning. How can we learn if everyone is always agreeing with us……how boring!
Cindy contributed:”Thanks for sharing this with us.”
I second that, Brian. What a beautiful lady. and that beauty shone through her body in that picture.
Thanks for sharing this beautiful story, Brian. I have similar experiences myself, and I’ve heard many from other people. I personally don’t consider them evidence of an immortal supernatural soul, though I understand why some people do, and though I’m still open to that possibility. Regardless, they are about the interconnections between persons and the meaning this gives our lives. I consider that important and beautiful no matter what goes on after we die.
Thank you, Brian. That was beautiful.
Thank you Matt!
Am I the only one who noticed that the only folks marking
may 9 and the 70th anniversary of Book one’s publication were NON-scientology sites? scientology has completely lost its “position”, and thereby its power. ‘BOUT TIME!
A note to the moms pictured today: Y’all look GREAT, girls.
I eventually remembered that I was complimenting the “girls” pictured in the Bunker, as well.
I agree with you utterly, Brian.
O/T. Scientology Freedom Medal Winner Nation of Islam Minister Tony Muhammad is promoting the book Plague of Corruption by anti-vaccine and Coronavirus conspiracy theorist Judy Mikovits.
ESMB Redux post:
https://exscn2.net/threads/scientology-freedom-medal-winner-nation-of-islam-minister-tony-muhammads-anti-semitic-racist-homophobic-anti-american-etc-statements.52/post-34890
Tweet:
https://twitter.com/ISNOINews/status/1259225404277248000
/
calling Judy Mikovits a “theorist” is gross injustice to the idea of rational thought.
Anti-vaxxers and other anti-science “advocates” require a label which includes their willingness to sacrifice the most vulnerable in the world to diseases which have all but been eradicated, in some cases HAVE been eradicated other than those samples held in government labs for research purposes.
Lots of strange parallels between Mikovitz and Hubbard. Both are suspicious of mainstream scientific knowledge, rewrite history to suit their own needs and egos. Both lie freely, including about their own pasts, and all in an attempt to make themselves look much better than they really are. Both are quacks who exploit the vulnerable and naïve to make a quick buck.
Happy Mother’s Day to wonderful mothers. You make the world a much better place for all of us.
They sure do. And I had a great one. She also was 90 years old, we had celebrated her birthday which coincided with the same day as Thanksgiving late last year at her home on Nov. 28th – something we had not done in years. We had really dressed up her house with the birthday theme and given her a birthday crown with banners celebrating her age accomplishment. None of us expected her to live so long and only her youngest sister out of 5 siblings was also still alive. She was the oldest. She was very happy and sat with us and ate more than I seen her eat in some time. She had been in declining health for some 10 years.
We finally had to put in a Home Care type of setting which was great though my Mom wanted to stay in her own home at long as possible but that was proving unmanageable. But they treated her great and the level of care much greater and around the clock with precautions against the current virus. But over the last couple of months her health was in obvious further decline and we visited her often. Finally on April 28th this year of 2020 she passed away at 11:29pm.
Strange thing was both my Dad and Mom and my wife’s Mom all were born and died on the 28th of their respective months. My Dad died exactly on the same day as my wife’s Mom who had died exactly 1 year earlier. Lots of strange coincidences.
I was born on April 28