This New Yorker article is an extremely detailed and well-documented peek behind the curtain of a dirtbag with a lot of money hiring big-name, reputable lawyers and private investigators to conduct a concerted campaign to intimidate and silence victims of and witnesses to his abuse.
Scientology has been doing this for years. Decades actually. They wrote the book, literally, on this sort of intimidation tactics. Everyone else is a pretender to the throne of corrupt power abusing the less powerful with impunity.
The big difference between Harvey Weinstein and scientology is the money spent by scientology on intimidation is TAX FREE. Put another way, the American taxpayer is subsidizing this sort of behavior when it comes to scientology. And believe me, scientology has been hard at work on this sort of thing since L. Ron Hubbard first laid out in his unalterable dictates in the 1950’s. In fact in one of his first treatises on the subject, The Manual of Justice (full copy here: HCO Manual of Justice ), he says the following:
When we need somebody haunted we investigate.
…usually mere investigation damps out the trouble even when we discover no really pertinent facts.
…Investigation to us in Scientology is a fine art.
This is the second major difference between scientology and Weinstein — scientology has WRITTEN directives from L. Ron Hubbard, the “source” of all things in scientology. His words are to be taken seriously and literally. They may never be questioned. He wrote a great deal more on the subject of hiring private investigators, “case officers,” “covert operations” and “ruining them utterly” — far too much to include here. I wrote an earlier blog post that describes this and quotes from his writings: Dealing with Critics of Scientology – The L. Ron Hubbard Playbook. It is sometimes hard to fathom that this brazen, shocking material is available for all to see.
In Tony Ortega’s excellent book The Unbreakable Miss Lovely he documents the concerted campaign of harassment, intimidation and outright frame-ups concocted and carried out by scientology against a journalist they thought was writing negatively about them. This was in the 1970’s. The pattern of behavior has not changed to this day.
Scientology has targeted Federal Court Judges, film-makers, lawyers, plaintiffs, witnesses, journalists, politicians — in short anyone they don’t like. It is also interesting to note the similarity in tactics — scientology has often sent PI’s pretending to be journalists or film-makers to try to gather intelligence on people. But they have also ventured well beyond mere “data collection.” They have embedded PI’s in the personal lives of their critics. But these sorts of thing are merely the appetizers on the scientology menu. They have set up elaborate “operations” to engage whistleblowers in other activities, to move them out of the country. They staged at least one fake hit and run against a politician. Planted false documents to use for bigamist allegations. Set up stings to get people arrested for drug trafficking with “anonymous tips.” Intimidated family members. Arranged “surprise confrontations” in airports after illegally obtaining travel itineraries. Anonymously reported “crimes” resulting in innocent people being arrested. And on and on…
Over the decades, scientology has spent hundreds of millions of dollars on campaigns of intimidation. Just two recent examples reported in the media give some idea of the obscene amounts of money involved:
From the Tampa Bay Times:
Nearly 25 years ago, the Church of Scientology hired two former California cops to do a job.
Spy on Patrick D. Broeker.
Follow Broeker, they said. Watch him every minute. Report back frequently.
The private eyes did. Beginning in 1988 and continuing for a quarter of a century, Paul Marrick and Greg Arnold tracked Broeker from a California apartment to a cowboy town in Wyoming and even to the Czech Republic.
They spied on his girlfriends, rifled through his garbage and listened to his phone calls.
… the church paid them between $10 million and $12 million. In addition to Broeker, they followed several other church targets, including a drug company executive who now is governor of Indiana — Mitch Daniels.
According to police records obtained by the LA Times:
For 18 months private detectives tracked every move made by the father of David Miscavige, leader of the Church of Scientology, as they eavesdropped, spied on his emails and planted a GPS unit on his car, according to police records.
The church paid the two detectives $10,000 a week through an intermediary, the records indicate, all because Miscavige feared that his father would divulge too much about the organization’s activities.
These are two examples. There are, over 60 years, hundreds of “operations” run by scientology. All subsidized by US taxpayers.
And still, scientology carries on, apparently immune from the consequences of their blatant abuse of the rights of individuals and the system.
Diane Cisneros Kekilian says
F U C Hubbard, hes dead and that Scandelous criminal Mc Cabbage, I don’t care what anyone says in reply, I’ve made my point, I believe you are an Imbezzle for believing in anything that speed freak had to say. Kiss off!
Brian says
Note for new onlookers:
The posters Marildi, Oracle (hasn’t posted here for a while) and Foolproof never respond to the actual abuses that Aftermath reveals. Never.
All of them come on line to “dead agent” (seek to invalidate) posters who think Scientology is dangerous. This was also true of them before Aftermath.
In all of my essays these folks get nasty and attack. They never directly deal with the abuses of Hubbard’s. They say they are out of the church but I don’t think they are.
Their purpose is to dead agent and stick up for Hubbard. This is who they’ve been for years now.
Their VFP is discord and upset. They usually come around when Hubbard or the tech is being dissected with reason and intelligence.
Does that mean the SPs are winning!! ? yay!!
Brian says
VFP is a Scientological business term “Vauable Final Product”
For the OSA, their VFP, is the destruction and utter ruination of any and all criticism of Hubbard and Scientology.
Undercover poster’s VFP is: discord, destruction of harmonious dialog and the dead agenting of any Hubbard critics.
Undercover posters say they have criticized Hubbard, but when you observe them their criticism seems emotionless.
Their criticism is a sham to try to fit in with real protesters.
Moxie says
OSA = Office of Subterranean Acolytes
Foolproof says
“Notes for new onlookers” eh?! You are obviously worried that my comments seem sensible for these “new onlookers” and here you go again, throwing in implicit, well, actually direct, ad hominem remarks that I am working for OSA (see below) and that I ignore all the abuses that the church does. That is not my beef with you and certain others so don’t try and railroad me into commenting on an area that prompted me to leave the Church in the 1980s. I am not disputing that the Church under Miscavige is an abomination and abuses people. I don’t have anything to say on that topic which is already voluminously commented on by others. Probably Debbie Cook’s email says it all. What you don’t like is that when you spout nonsense about the technology I point this out which spoils your game, for whatever reason you have to do so. There is nothing I would like better than if the Church just delivered auditing and training and got on with that as it should have done and then there would be far less people such as yourself with some sort of beef about the abuses (as the abuses would have been far less at least).
As for working for OSA my more “in-line” comments will do more to bring people out of the Church than your (what will seem to them) rabid comments that they will take one look at and think “well, we are better off in the Church rather than being outside with all these folk!” One could actually assume that if anyone is working for Miscavige or OSA it is people like you who are presenting (again, what will seem to UTR-types) as outlandish and extreme anti-Scientology commenting. In fact if one took a neutral view of this one could say it is more likely you and a few others here, who do their best to rant and rave against my comments, and thus hope to drive me away from the blog, are working for OSA, directly (?), or indirectly by your ranting and raging.
Brian, you can meditate all you want or whatever Buddhist stuff you get up to, I will quite happily let you do that. But when you attack my religion (which is the technology, not Hubbard nor DM nor IAS Registrars), then I have a right to say to you what I think, do I not? Or are you going to accuse and abuse me further?
Moxie says
Thanks for letting Brian do his meditation – mighty tolerant of you. Yes, most of us here are working for OSA. Why just the other day Old Surfer Dude, Yawnalot and myself held a secret meeting to plan our strategy for the takedown of…
Sorry I can’t say more as it’s confidential.
Foolproof says
Yes, I am feeling tolerant today. Perhaps you should take a leaf out my book, for today at least? Let us know how the meeting goes.
Moxie says
Perhaps not, I’ve said too much already. Gavino, WTF?!
Dave F. says
So, Foolproof, are you now, or have you ever been, a member of Scientology?
If yes, what is your OT level, what areas have you worked in, and what duties have you performed for them?
Have you left Scientology or are you still involved with it and for how long?
Dave F.
Foolproof says
Seems Dave is “profiling” for OSA here.
Dave F. says
Actually, i was had a “flashback” to the time period of the “early days” of Scientology . . . The HUAC hearingss came to mind – LOL ! ! !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJCJGvd7t2c
Dave F.
Dave F. says
Foolproof,
You said that you left Scientology in the 1980’s. Was that prior to 1986 or “post-Hubbard” ?
Dave F.
FG says
Foolproof you are extremely right !
Spike says
It is my wish to see more acceptance on this blog for posters who are ok with the tech, but not the abuses. We will have more variety in postings, more exchange of ideas. Thanks.
Dio says
Hello Spike,
Very good point.
When it comes to the subject of scientology, it is necessary to be objective.
First it is necessary to know and always keep in mind that there is a difference between the corporation called the Church of Scientology, and the subject matter or the philosophy and spiritual healing technology, called dianetics and scientology.
Then when it comes to the subject matter, one must be able to distinguish between good and bad philosophy and tech, or and right and wrong philosophy and tech.
That is very important.
Because if one doesn’t, one can and likely will cause oneself a lot of damage.
And another thing to keep in mind is that there is a right way and a wrong way to do almost anything and everything.
One of the definitions of insanity is not being able to distinguish differences.
Doing scn is the best thing I ever did.
And I did a lot of different stuff for 27 yrs, in the field of self improvement, personal development and spiritual healing before I learned about dianetics and scientology in 1997.
It did not do any real good. I was actually getting worse.
Long story short, my life began to take a turn for the better after I got into dianetics and scn.
It saved my life many times.
But I did most of what I did on my own, without the influence of the COS.
I was able to think and critique for myself.
Like someone at St Hill said, many yrs ago, Scientology is a wonderful thing, if it were not for the people running it.
I would add Hubbard’s false and limiting data and evil purpose to that.
Dio
Spike says
Hi Dio, thanks for your comments, LOL! It sounds like we are like-minded. And yes, it is very important to step back and evaluate, not just take things at face value. This evaluation can and should be continuous. I also have come away with a lot from the subject. I wish the organization hadn’t taken such a left turn, years ago.
Dave F. says
Dio,
SORRY . . . I can’t let this go un-replied to . . .
No “tolerance” for ANY aspect of Scientology should exist . . . Hubbard CREATED Dianetics & Scientology so, if you EXCLUDE Hubbard, you have to EXCLUDE ALL of it !
As a prime example, Christianity has “zero tolerance” for ANY “aspects” of Satan !
While you were “holding your cans”. you might as well have been dong Biofeedback . . . “Thinking for and critiquing yourself” is called “Introspection” in the real world. Scientology adapted that technique for their own purposes, the infamous “Introspection Rundown” !
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introspection_Rundown
http://www.lisamcpherson.org/introspe.htm
https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Scientology_cult_%22Introspection_Rundown%22_as_used_in_the_wrongful_death_of_Lisa_McPherson_(1991)
REAL Introspection :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introspection
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1UnYiPwBQ0
Dianetics & Scientology were created by an evil, twisted mind and, in my opinion, must be utterly destroyed, once and for all . . . Take no prisoners, show no mercy, and finsih them off !
Dio says
Dave F.
Thank you for your input.
Read my post again.
Then answer the following question:
Is the value of a datum determined by authority, beliefs, opinions, or by who wins an argument,
or by how many problems it solves?
The inability to evaluate and distinguish differences is one definition of insanity.
Dio
Wynski says
Dio, the value of a datum is determined by none of the choices you offered.
Fail
Dave F. says
Wynski,
I think you’ll like my response to Dio, once it gets posted !
Dave F.
Dave F. says
Dio,
So, you want to do a little “quantitative risk analysis”, using LRH’s “24 Logic’s” eh ? Straight out of the “playbook” . . . You have just “outed yourself” !
https://scientologyanswers.wordpress.com/category/what-are-the-logics-of-dianetics-and-scientology/
***************************************************************************************************************************************
Let me refer you to “Logic 10” . . .
Logic 10
“The value of a datum is established by the amount of alignment (relationship) it imparts to other data.”
Since Dianetics and Scientology were both created by LRH, “out of thin air”, and LRH has been deemed to be “evil”, “corrupt”, and “psychotic”. The “Value of the Datum” is ZERO, whenever the “relationship” of ANY aspect of Scientology or Dianetics is attributed to LRH. Since Scientology and Dianetics are the “offspring” of LRH, their “value” is ZERO !
***************************************************************************************************************************************
By your asking me to answer your question on the “value of a datum”, you have granted me “equal status” to LRH and his “works” of Scientology & Dianetics”, via Logic 8 ( God help me ).
Logic 8
A datum can be evaluated only by a datum of comparable magnitude.
***************************************************************************************************************************************
You have been deceived by Logic 18 ( at least ), which has caused you to establish a “mindset” that you have “benefited” from Scientology and/or Dianetics. A good psychotherapist would have accomplished a great deal more, would have been MUCH cheaper, and not left you brainwashed and damaged.
Logic 18
A postulate is as valuable as it is workable.
https://scientologyanswers.wordpress.com/2007/10/23/what-is-a-postulate/
QUOTE – Postulate : a conclusion, decision or resolution made by the individual himself to resolve a problem or to set a pattern for the future or to nullify a pattern of the past. For example, a person says, “I like Model T Fords. I am never going to drive another car.” Years later, no longer consciously aware of this postulate, he will wonder why he is having so much trouble with his Buick; it’s because he has made an earlier promise to himself. In order to change he has to change that postulate.
***************************************************************************************************************************************
You are a victim of Logic 14, as well . . . The “behavior modification techniques”, used by Scientology to establish “authoritarian command” over you “aberrate” the problems you are blithely unaware of and block you from seeing the truth of the situation or the “solution” !
Logic 14
Factors introduced into a problem or solution which do not derive from natural law but only from authoritarian command aberrate that problem or solution.
***************************************************************************************************************************************
Finally, you are “trapped” by the “circular argument” of Logic 7 . . . I was amused by the 2nd Corollary, which basically states that “truth is relative to truth” ( talk about “insanity” ) .
Logic 7
Gradient scales are necessary to the evaluation of problems and their data.
This is the tool of infinity-valued logic: Absolutes are unobtainable. Terms such as good and bad, alive and dead, right and wrong are used only in conjunction with gradient scales. On the scale of right and wrong, everything above zero or center would be more and more right, approaching an infinite rightness, and everything below center would be more and more wrong, approaching infinite wrongness. All things assisting the survival of the survivor are considered to be right for the survivor. All things inhibiting survival from the viewpoint of the survivor can be considered wrong for the survivor. The more a thing assists survival, the more it can be considered right for the survivor; the more a thing or action inhibits survival, the more it is wrong from the viewpoint of the intended survivor.
COROLLARY: Any datum has only relative truth.
COROLLARY: Truth is relative to environments, experience and truth.
***************************************************************************************************************************************
I could go on & on, but I need to analyze and “dissect” LRH’s “24 Logic’s” further . . . I only skimmed over them for a couple of minutes.
The more I read things developed by LRH, the more I see the mind of a twisted, psychotic individual. It’s a shame that you have fallen into his “trap” and come under his influence. You are totally unaware of the effect these materials have had and are having upon you, other than the ones your “handlers” have ingrained in your subconscious mind.
Take a leap of faith and step into the real world – Leave Scientology and be free !
Wynski says
Dave F. You sunk his battleship!
Dio says
Dave F.
None of what you posted is relevant.
It is like leaves blowing in the wind.
The only thing that matters to me is that when I did it my way, it was the best thing that I ever done.
It saved my life many times.
It was the only thing that did help me.
Prior to dianetics and scn, I spent 27 yrs of doing everything I could get my hands on, and it was all snake oil and scorcery.
Only when I did dianetics and scn, the right way, did I get better.
The key point is “the right way”.
Very few people ever did it the right way.
To do it the right way, you have to have very good critical thought and discernment abilities.
The inability to discern differences is one sign of insanity.
As for you, for one thing:
My evaluation is that it was way above gradient for you.
And your buddy Wynski too.
The value of a datum is only determined by how many problems it solves and how well it solves them.
And dianetics and scn solved a lot of problems for me, very well when I did it the right way.
Dio
Mike Rinder says
That is excellent for you. It’s had the opposite effect on many, many more. You would explain that as failure to “apply the tech”. But objectively you have to say the tech helped 1 and harmed 100. Not good odds. There are many more failures with the tech than there are successes. I am truly happy you are a success.
Dio says
Mike,
You have a significant MU.
You did not read my posts carefully.
Therefore you are not talking about the same kind of scn, I am.
You are talking about standard tech and as done in the church.
I did not do standard tech, and did not do it in the church.
There is a right way and a wrong way to do almost everything.
The problem with standard tech is that it has a fair bit of false and limiting data.
Even many of those in the fz are doing that “standard tech” and it really messes people up, while making them feel like they got it right.
The best they got is a false clear.
The church is a separate factor, that fucks people up on a whole different level.
The problem is compounded in the church.
That is the short story.
I did it it on my own, my way, at home, the right way.
I identified the false and limiting data.
If people did it the right way, there is no good reason that the odds of success would not be 100%.
Dio
Mike Rinder says
More fundamentalism…
Such amazing capacity to inform others what is wrong with them with absolute certainty.
Truly, I have no objection, in fact I am happy for you, that you are certain you have found the answers to all of life and livingness as described by LRH.
I just wish your certainty of self didnt have to come with a certainty of what is wrong with everyone else that they have not achieved their own certainty.
Dave F. says
The “short summary” of Dio is “ego-centrist”, in this case, aka “Scientologist” . . .
Dave F. says
To EVERYONE reading this exchange . . . There are a LOT of Scientological “acronyms” and “terminology being used here. I think a GLOSSARY of “Scientologese” may be helpful . . . It was to ME !
http://www.bible.ca/scientology-dictonary-terms.htm
What was LRH’s major “MU” ?
http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?t=15226
Dave F.
Dave F. says
Dio,
Like I said before, I gained that much knowledge in less than 5 minutes. Think of what might happen, if I started doing in-depth research. You can continue to try to “puff yourself up’ and claim “superiority” but, in the end all your claims are merely the tired old recitations of “a tale, told by by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing” . . . Namely, LRH !
Your thoughts are limited by staying within the boundaries of the the writings of LRH, while mine are widespread and diverse. I am free, while you are held captive, whether you believe that or not.
The next time they have you scrubbing toilets with a toothbrush, try to remember that there is a Real World out there and your freedom awaits you . . . All you have to do is “blow” !
Dio says
Dave F.
You have not read my posts properly.
I was only in the cos for 4 days.
That was back in 1997.
So I was never really much in the church.
During those 4 days in the church, I had a bk 1 demo, and keyed out, very well.
I was amazed.
Then I did two intro courses, Ups and downs and Personal values.
It was during that time, that I realized that the place was an asylum being run by the inmates.
Long story short, I let them know that and they threw me out.
But I liked bk 1 and the two courses I took.
It was all very good data.
But before they threw me out, they sold me four home study courses.
Dianetics homestudy, Science of Survival homestudy, SP/PTS homestudy, and Intro to scn ethics.
I was happy to pay for the courses, because I had wins from everything I had already done.
I realized they had good data.
So I went home and did those homestudy courses about three/four times each.
I had great wins.
They saved my life.
Then a few months later, I met someone who told me about the freezone.
And their magazine, the Free Spirit Journal.
And from there I got more auditing from the late Bob Ross, and was able to buy all the text books from others who advertised their book collections for sale, and read them all a few times.
I had lots of wins.
Then as the yrs went on I read everything I could find in the freezone, then I built my own bridge.
It was the best thing I ever did.
Dio
Dave F. says
DIo,
Explain this . . .
With only “4 days” of contact with CoS, how were you in any position to say, “It was during that time, that I realized that the place was an asylum being run by the inmates.” ?
Also, if, as you claim ,”the place was an asylum being run by the inmates”, would you have continued in it, “on the outside” ?
QUOTE : “During those 4 days in the church, I had a bk 1 demo, and keyed out, very well.
I was amazed.
Then I did two intro courses, Ups and downs and Personal values.”
END QUOTE :
Perhaps. Mike Rinder can explain how a “newbie” in Scientology would have been able to make that assessment, especially while doing all of the “coursework” . . .
Also, is it possible to do that amount of “study” and “evaluation” in that short period of time, have it evaluated, and receive the results ?
QUOTE: ” It was during that time, that I realized that the place was an asylum being run by the inmates.
Long story short, I let them know that and they threw me out.
But I liked bk 1 and the two courses I took.
It was all very good data.
But before they threw me out, they sold me four home study courses.
Dianetics homestudy, Science of Survival homestudy, SP/PTS homestudy, and Intro to scn ethics.
I was happy to pay for the courses, because I had wins from everything I had already done.
I realized they had good data. ”
END QUOTE :
So, in just 4 days, you were evaluated, did several courses of study, got the results, realized they were “inmates running the asylum”, bought 4 more books from the “inmates”, get kicked out of CoS, decided they had “good data”, and continued Scientology all on your own ?
Sorry, but I have to call “BULLSHIT” on that “story” . . .
Dave F.
Wynski says
Dio blathered, “To do it [scamology] the right way, you have to have very good critical thought and discernment abilities.”
REALLY? I don’t remember Hubtard saying PCs must posses that before getting the gains from auditing. Maybe you will show us that part of the “tek” Dio.
Or, just admit you are a completely batshit crazy cult member.
Wynski says
Spike, acceptance of people who peddle dangerous cult material is not a good idea.
Spike says
Hi Wynski – I appreciate your comment. It’s a question of, not everyone views the subject as a total ‘cult’. I’m out on a limb here, as most posters do appear to think this way. I understand over the years that many feel they have been harmed by the subject or the application of it. As you know by now, I stepped away a long time ago; there were issues for me at the time, especially the $ part (crazy regging), and I made sure to shield my kids from joining. In present time I would not steer anyone towards the subject. However, I do look back on my experience (1973-82) and it is not negative (for me). I know there are plenty of others out there like me (they step into the comments sometimes). Leah’s recent point with her last show: if LRH was such a negative person, then everything that flowed from him must be flawed etc. I’m not sure I agree with this, as so many people found so much help with the subject. I was able to identify with one of Brian’s recent comments; he felt LRH had some kind of a split personality (part good, part bad?). I dislike the negative ethics stuff, homophobe materials, as much as most of you. IDK, lots of contradictions, still getting my head around them. Personally, I have looked at many subjects since then. Anyway, my point was to foster more discussion.
Wynski says
What you think is irrelevant to the facts Spike. There is ZERO scientific evidence that scamology is useful beyond placebo effect. Yet, its path is literally strewn with dead bodies and destroyed people & families.
Bring evidence or take a hike.
Spike says
Don’t wish to argue with you, Wynski. It’s subjective anyway.
Moxie says
Dude, get some manners.
Dave F. says
Spike,
This is MY view of Scientology . . .
I don’t think that the word “cult” accurately describes Scientology.
In my opinion, Scientology is a “pyramid scheme”, hiding behind the facade of being a “church”, operating as a “Quasi-Cult” ( They have no alternate “deity” or “worship services” ),
Their entire purpose is to steal as much money as possible from their “parishoners”, while exploiting their “tax exempt status”, as a “church / religion”, erroneously granted to them under Bill “Bubba” Clinton, in 1993. ( I wonder what the “payoff” was to get that ? )
Scientology is a scam, at best, and a cruel, vicious, violent organization, run by those who have been, and continue to be, indoctrinated by their own “brainwashing” techniques. When brainwashing is coupled with a psychotic person, the result is someone like David Miscavage, an out of control, ego-maniacal, vicous, violent, psychotic, dangerous individual.
I have NEVER been in Scientology and NEVER will, BUT the TRUTH is clearly visible to those OUTSIDE of Scientology . . . Yes, the Real World can be a tough, scary place, but no one is going to make you clean toilets with a toothbrush, lock you up in “the hole”, or commit any of the other attrocites within Scientology, against you.
Leave, while you still can !
Dave F.
Spike says
Hello Dave F, thanks for this and I appreciate your concern. No need to worry on my behalf, I have been ‘gone’ for 35 years.
Dave F. says
Spike,
Glad to hear that you were able to escape the clutches of Scientology !
If / When you encounter Scientology “Moles” & “Trolls” online, share this with them . . .
QUOTE :
To ALL of the Scientology “Moles” & “Trolls” . . .
Next time you talk to COB, David Miscavige, share these LINKS with him . . . The CLOCK is TICKING and it’s a COUNTDOWN ! ! !
http://www.newsweek.com/trump-says-scientology-not-real-religion-he-questions-tax-free-church-status-708301
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/11/10/trump-reportedly-supports-revoking-church-scientologys-tax-exempt-status.html
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/nov/10/trump-scientology-and-irs-yes-let-tax-stripping-be
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-scientology-tax-exemption_us_5a04dd35e4b05673aa584cab
Dave F.
Gravitysucks says
Thank you Brian! That needed to be said. I haven’t been around long, but I have totally noticed timing. The FB support groups are kinda flamey right now.? twitter alternately fascinates or horrifies me. I’m interested to see what attempts at deflection will be after the latest episode of Aftermath.
Yeah. LRH lied!
Lisa says
After everything that I’ve watched from the show & seen Tony on few interviews; this doesn’t surprise me at all!!
PeaceMaker says
I would be surprised if Hubbard really pioneered the aggressive use of private investigators, rather than taking his cue from what had been done before, and perhaps adding a twist or two of his own.
I know there has to be a long history of the use of private detectives in Hollywood. Thomas Edison himself infamously had competitors in film-making investigated and harassed, when he thought they were encroaching on his patents. I can only imagine such was one of the tools of the studios and moguls at the height of their power, which was also the era when organized crime figures like Bugsy Siegel were involved as well; though the only example I know to cite, is the infamous 1950s “wrong door raid” when PIs and a cameraman working for Marilyn Monroe’s husband, broke into a private residence where they thought they would find her in a compromising position.
Aquamarine says
That’s true about Thomas Edison but keep in mind, his backer was JP Morgan, the wealthiest man in the country if not the world at the time. It was JP’s money that payed for those detectives. Edison was the genius that made JP, the original large investor in electricity, beyond wealthy.
PeaceMaker says
The East Coast moguls also made plenty of cynical, brutal use of the likes of the notorious Pinkerton detectives, and I’m guessing that they pioneered the techniques of harassing and silencing opponents and critics, though I’ve only seen passing references to that sort of activity in my reading and studies.
p.s. Morgan was reported to have been worth less than $100 million when he died, which caused J. D. Rockefeller to infamously sniff, that he turned out not to even really be a wealthy man. Rockefeller himself was extremely creative at using every means at his disposal to his advantage, including covert and very dubious ones, and hiding his role through intermediaries and attorneys; it wouldn’t surprise me if he was responsible for some of the innovations. Though he was famously pious, he apparently considered many of his competitors and detractors to be wicked people who could be dealt with remorselessly.
Aaron says
Didn’t JPM backed Tesla?
Majicatt says
Hello! I have been faithful reader of this blog and watcher of The Aftermath. ( My better half and I used to limit our emotional outbursts during television viewing to Monday Night Football. Now we are side by side on the couch, listening and learning during every episode of The Aftermath, alternating between anger, tears and that weird kind of head shaking where you don’t want to believe what you are seeing and hearing, yet you do believe it!
Earlier tonight, I filled out IRS form 13909 posted by Dio from Tory Christman’s log. As I was looking for an envelope and stamp, I paused and said to my guy “Wait a minute. Do we really want to sign our names and send this to the IRS? What if Scientology sends those Squirrel Busters to our house?”
“We’ll muster the Rohirrim, release the Kraken, and if that don’t work, we’ll paint our faces blue and moon ’em”.
PS We also signed the petition at change.org.
PPS To all the brave people who have appeared on The Aftermath to share your deeply personal experiences, please know that two lapsed Catholics from the City of Brotherly Love have prayed for your health, happiness, peace and that all who have been so cruelly separated, will be reunited.
PPPS We’ve asked Santa Claus to give Bernie Madoff a new cell-mate. (hey…if the federal prison assigns cells in alphabetical order….it could happen….)
Maj
WhatAreYourCrimes says
Aftermath is one of the most compelling television events in history. I do not say that lightly.
In fact, it is beyond compelling, it is motivating. How many casual television viewers have been riveted by the revelations of the truth about scientology, and then became so outraged that they were motivated to take action?
This is a real movement now.
There have been suggestions that David Miscavige was terrified of losing his power to others more competent, more able, more inspirational, and thus regressed into a true thug with beatings, intimidations, and creating the hole. Well you know something, he was right to be scared.
Because look what Mike Rinder is doing now; he is virtually kicking David Miscavige’s ass in every facet of this war (and yes David, I used a semi-colon).
Can anyone point out anything David Miscavige hasn’t f***ed up since guys like Mike, Tom DeVocht, and even Marty Rathbun left scientology?? (A bunch of other good ex-scientologist names could be added to that list, you all know.)
brumor says
Hubbard’s world is “1984” with all it’s horror. His “Fair Game” policy is right out of a police state. He was smart enough to realize that all of this criminal activity can be cloaked behind a religious veil.
Moxie says
Funny how “The WHY” proposed by Miscavige for his so-called Golden Age of Tech, is spot on when describing the world of Scientology: The blind have been leading the blind.
Pearl Wisdom says
I was just watching the nightly news and I hear the name Bijou Phillips is being named as harassing a fellow actor by calling him homophobic names, bullying, etc. Seems she apologized but also is saying she “doesn’t remember doing that”. The story is now being picked up by major publications and they also mention the rape charges against her hubby, Scientologist Danny Masterson. Wow, oh nasty Harvey Weinstein has certainly started a shitstorm. Hopefully Danny Masterson gets his just rewards too.
Moxie says
Hang down your head, L’il Davy
Hang down your head and cry
Hang down your head, L’il Davy
Poor boy, your church has died
I met him up at Gold Base
Looked into those eyes
Met him up at Gold Base
Saw through all his lies
Hang down your head, L’il Davy
Hang down your head and cry
Hang down your head, L’il Davy
Poor boy, your church has died
In a few tomorrows
Reckon where he’ll be
Holed up in some jail cell
Making friends down on his knees
Hang down your head, L’il Davy
Hang down your head and cry
Hang down your head, L’il Davy
Poor boy, your church has died
Diane Cisneros Kekilian says
Hahaha?
Moxie says
Today’s article reminds me of a comment The Joker made in The Dark Knight: “This town deserves a better class of criminal, and I’m going to give it to them.”
Aquamarine says
🙂
I Yawnalot says
Always suspected another sort of angle to life as lived by Scientology but I didn’t quite put the context of intent in place until now, takes a bit of confront to realise what one was part of. Thanks Mike, this summary of incidents and the characters/antagonist/protagonists all blending together, have now been separated out well enough. I suppose another way of saying it the mosaic of Scientology is coming into sharper focus now. Being “all about the money” is not quite correct. It’s the playing of the game. Money is just the flux on which it all flows, hence it’s an integral part, but Hubbard “loved” playing his game, it was the only thing that worked for him on the big stage. Must have been quite the surprise for him he became so successful at it and that no-one terminated him earlier on. How he kept those lies going on for years & years is quite a wonder, exampled especially by the false claims he made in Dianetics. How we bought it all is amazing, wishful thinking in the extreme!
When Gary wrote his article of on life on-board the Apollo with Hubbard and seeing the suitcases full of cash come and go via Hubbard’s cabin to hidden bank accounts while he struggled to get issued a new paint brush or time for a decent shore leave makes more sense now.
The truth doesn’t work with or against Scientology (as yet) because that’s not the game, it’s the lies and subterfuge that create and uncreate the scenarios to fight with and against that is the “fun bit.” Paulette Cooper is a prime example of the lengths Scientology will go to and the complete disregard for human rights but it’s the ‘thrill’ of ruining people which set the rules by which they now live. Those folk in Scientology who donate have no idea of what the intent behind the use of that money actually is. Hubbard wrote it all down and Miscavige is a good player, rather brilliant at it really, his arrogance and destructive tendencies knows no bounds. He wouldn’t change a thing, he’d be out of a job if he did (and it jail).
The powers of darkness on which Scientology operates are quite the contrast to what they say they are doing.
Sheesh! Imagine a Cleared planet with that game going on in the background? De Fuehrer played that game too, “all for the fatherland,” the motivation, the Gestapo and their tactics to police it.
Nothing is as it seems with organised Scientology… until now. Their heart is being exposed.
What more evidence could possibly be required for those that support the organisation of Scientology – getting it into a format that gets past their brainwashing I suppose.
WhatAreYourCrimes says
Good points, Yawnalot.
Enough is enough. I will not be satisfied until I see scientology lose its tax exempt status AND Miscavige in jail. His cruel and criminal actions certainly warrant time behind bars.
Diane Cisneros Kekilian says
I believe the next steps above the Secret Sea Orgs were to contact with beings or ETs, I was just a child when my father told me about these things. Of course at that time classified was a status. The space industry was booming in the early 60s. Everyone wanted those secrets. The only thing LRH wanted was the technology to spy on everyone, not just his members of his church but the whole world. My dad would tell us he was a drug addict and he never went back to that church.
My childhood was filled with company visits to JPL, and many wonderous events, my dad would tell us about the projects he worked on, (not so much in detail but, in general). He worked with VonBraun, MX missle silos, and many projects for NASA. He is considered a pioneer in his field, knew Jack Parsons and, most of these people here do not know this side of the paranoid person LRH was. I dont care or value my life, I’m a Shell with nothing. The reason I am angry at this cult is because it used Witchcraft in its beginning. I grew up 100 ft. From the original mansions lot in So. Pas. Even fire could not clean the earth where it stood. So, what is my point? MY point is this;
With all the nit picking I’ve had here trying to tell this world I have been poisoned, my ex was a Sea son, after 45,000. In court fees to keep my kids from going under and escaping The Devils Playground, I was almost Cemented in.
I am alive today by Grace, and ladies, gentlemen with all the errors you find in my punctuation….lack of education, how the hell did you intelligent humans ever get swindled out of your money and the wool pulled over your eyes? Thank you!
Dio says
Diane,
I am saddened to hear your story. I can empathize with you.
RE: Empty shell:
You are far from alone.
There are many of us that have that empty shell condition. There are many ways to do that.
And that is one of the causes of substance abuse and drug addictions.
With feminism and liberated women, and more and more working moms, since the war, there are more and more of us.
But those are not the only ways to do that. Fathers can do that too.
Hubbard makes the point very eloquently and succinctly in Science of Survival. In his write up on the role of women in society.
Gus Fernandini says
Mike,
A while back I wrote you two private messages. I never heard back, even though both were sincere and polite.
May I ask why?
Thanks,
Gus
Mike Rinder says
Where did u send them to? I get hundreds every day on FB, Twitter, email and blog. Might have been missed. But if u tell me how u sent it I will try to find them.
Dave F. says
LRH’s Brainwashing Manual also opened my eyes, as to how the USA has been, and currently is, being dragged towards Socialism, Marxism, and, ultimately Communism. I’ll leave “Politics” (sorry) out of this discussion, but History is proving my observations from that manual to be correct.
Remember that Khrushchev said that the “USSR would take the United States, without firing a shot” . . . I believe that has been underway, for many decades !
Links :
http://www.freewebs.com/slyandtalledgy/Brainwashing%20Manual%20Parallels.pdf
http://www.apfn.org/pdf/The_Brainwashing_Manual.pdf
Everyone please share those links . . . They are “eye-opening”.
Mike Rinder says
Not sure about the larger political ramifications of USSR taking over US, but I find the analysis of the Hubbard Brainwashing Manual being an outline for scientology fascinating. I had not seen this first document before…
PeaceMaker says
There is some controversy over who actually wrote Brain-Washing, though Scientology published a version that has what seems like some of Hubbard’s typical neologisms in it, and it’s doubtless the work of an American author pretending to be a Soviet ideologue. It may be yet another thing that Hubbard plagiarized – I am starting to suspect that between outright copying, and taking credit for the work of others around him, Hubbard was actually responsible for much less of Dianetics, Scientology, and CofS policy, than is generally understood.
jim says
No controversy. Hubbard all the way.
Dave F. says
Mike,
I found the “parallels” to be very interesting, eye-opening, and firghtening.
God bless you, Mike !
Dave F.
Moxie says
Most informative. Thanks Dave.
Dave F. says
You’re quite welcome !
Dave F.
Homer says
Scientology must thank Zenu for Donald Trump, he took the heat off them when It was at boiling point.
Wynski says
I wouldn’t call having Trump say that the CoS should lose its tax exempt status a reason for the Church to be thankful Homer.
Dio says
From Tory Christman’s fb page:
If you care about the removal of Scientology’s Tax Exemption, DO THIS!
FILL OUT FORM 13909
(www.irs.gov…
search for form 13909.
FEIN# and official tax name, form & # are posted below in comments, thanks to Carol Rogers & Mary McConnell.
Also a big thanks to Victoria Berry who has helped with this!
<3 Jeffrey Augustine has been working on this, too….so check out his info, too.
We're all on the same page. Only missing ingredient that I can see/read is getting *each* person to MAIL IN THE FORM. <3
Internal Revenue Service | An official website of the United States government
The Internal Revenue Service is the nation's tax collection agency and administers the Internal…
irs.gov
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f13909.pdf
From Mary McConnell:
" Full Name:
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY INTERNATIONAL FEIN:
592153393
http://rct.doj.ca.gov/Verification/Web/Search.aspx…"
..
Verification
rct.doj.ca.gov
blackandwhite says
I wanted to say that I moved my family away from So Cal 11 years ago and thankfully am far from from any “org.” That doesn’t stop these bloodsuckers from still trying to wrap their filthy tentacles around me and my family!!! You are having an impact Mike! Since the show aired the junk mailings, emails and phone calls have really ramped up, they are low on new members so are DOUBLING UP on reaching out to old “still in good standing” types like us. A week ago one of my now grown boys got a phone call on his CELL PHONE looking for me! He has only had that number a few years! Yesterday my other college age child got a call on HIS cell phone “wanting to confirm MY mailing address!” They didn’t say who they were but the number they left told the story. They have sunk to new lows using skip trace type technology in an attempt to reach long time people that have moved away. My children are disgusted saying “you obviously aren’t interested, why do they persist?” I actually did speak to “one of them” some years back and said I was now 100% Christian and no longer interested in services, that was ignored and he pressed even harder sending DVDs, junk mail made extra phone calls, bombed me with email to “recover me.” I just Thank the Lord for the iPhone call blocking yet the incoming calls always show our local area codes even though the “call me back” number is in CA. There is no way to say “piss off ” to them as you’ll be labelled antagonistic and the calls would escalate beyond belief. I still have a few good friends also “out but in good standing” so don’t want to jeopardize those connections, some of them have family still “in.” I am convinced they have a S.O. ARMY sitting in a room dedicated to combing current members Facebook friends looking for “bad apples” then the current member is called in to ethics to question his “Facebook friendship” with the “bad apple”. Talk about a powerful hold they still have…the fact that they are calling my children is a whole new level of desperation. Makes me sick. Keep up the incredible work, you and Leah have been explaining and exposing each and every aspect of this sham, feel free to touch on the “junk mail, email and phone calls forever and ever” aspect. You can leave town and change everything and they will still PERSIST! They will still FIND YOU!
Jaye R says
+1
Newcomer says
” Talk about a powerful hold they still have…the fact that they are calling my children is a whole new level of desperation.”
Dear blackandwhite,
Speaking out, watching the Aftermath and getting yourself declared is the only option to stop the insanity known as $cientology. If you do this then most if not all of the things that you mention will whither and die.
In my case I did know that by speaking out my family members still in would have to disconnect from me or join the fringes on the internet. That is a tough call and everyone has to make a choice that works for them. I looked at the quality of my life, the communications that I had with my family and realized that for the most part, real communication did not exist. Acceptable truths were all that ever came up …. except for perhaps the next status goal! We all had to be ‘careful’ of what we said and who we said it to under threat of ‘something really bad happening’ such as an ethics interview or a sec check or what ever. The common denominator is living a life in fear!
Add to this the fact that the out ethics officers and the regges were promoting and in support of having my family members donate to the cherch without my knowledge. When I did find out the ‘reason why this was supposed to be ok’ I was dumbfounded. It had to do with the fact that I was a small being and did not get the big picture. (I never could figure out why it was that the small beings seemed to have the ability to earn the big money the cherch needed to save everyone) Glad that’s over! But I worry for my kids; daughter age 35 and in the SO working in the HGB Building; son 30 married into a whale family but at least not currently on staff. How will things turn out for them?
My .02 cents: pull the plug on the cherch, get yourself declared (most all mail and phone calls will cease) and end the era of living in fear of ………….! Good luck to you, your family and all of your still in friends!
Aquamarine says
Newcomer,
You have such a Crashing MU on the term “Big Being” that one is compelled to jump in to assist with a reference so as to alleviate suffering from what is assuredly a vast panorama of mental effects.
Big Being: From the New Tech Dictionary (As yet to be released; this is Lost Tech and this definition is what LRH always intended):
“A Big Being is not necessarily a person who earns big money. Small beings earn big money too. What defines a Big Being – the ONLY qualities defining a Big Being, are the willingness to SPEND big money (one’s own or someone else’s) to spend it QUICKLY, and, most importantly, to do this with very little thought. The MORE one spends, the SPEED with which one spends it, and DEGREE OF TIME one uses to think about doing it – one jockeys these factors, and so determines the SIZE of the person’s Beingness. ” LRH.
You might want to Clay Demo this.
Moxie says
?
Lynda Morgan says
I was only in Scientology for a few months back in the late 70’s. When I left the course supervisor actually threw his body across the hood of my car to stop me from leaving. Went back in and talked for awhile demanded my money back which of course they didn’t give me. So I took the remaining money in books. Some how that worked for them. Anyway they kept bugging me for a very long time and they stopped. HOWEVER after 40 years they have once again found my address and are sending me their celebrity magazine every so often. Shredding is a real good thing. A friend of mine who was there at the same time and left at the same time has been getting phone calls all the time under her maiden name. She’s be married for 36 years! They never give up.!!!
Moxie says
They never bother me anymore and I haven’t even been officially declared. What am I doing wrong?
Aquamarine says
You have Ethics Protection from on high, Moxie. OSA enjoy your parodies. And they have so few pleasures.
Moxie says
Thanks Aqua. Sheesh, the only stuff I get these days are Way to Happiness promo pieces letting me know I can order my own designs on the booklets to distribute to my friends during Christmas.
Aquamarine says
So send OSA the New Golden Age of Dreck version of “Things That Shouldn’t Be”, Moxie.
Today, with Lost Tech continually being found by COB, its called a “What Am I, Chopped Liver?”
(Yes, believe it or not, some suppressive, anti-Semitic stenographer back in the day had an MU on the title and simply BURIED this vital HCOPL but thanks to COB this invaluable admin tool is now back in use to ensure that not only the good but the evil that men do receive proper acknowledgement as Ron always intended.
Send a WAICL uplines immediately. With all your J&Ding – a tremendous body of work, really – that you’ve been putting on the cult’s lines all these years you deserve MUCH better in the way of recognition – Merchant of Chaos Status at the very least…frankly, I’d demand the Ultimate SP Commendation (Devil’s Horns Platinum Meritorius) if I were you.
Moxie says
Thanks Aqua. I feel fully acknowledged. I believe I should be awarded the status of Eternal Enema to BM, er DM. A Goldenrod would be a nice addition to my collection of useless paraphernalia.
What’s WAICL?
Aquamarine says
OmG in heaven 🙂
You’re welcome.
WAICL = “What Am I, Chopped Liver?”
A No Acknowledgment Report. New admin tool for acknowledging both Social Personalities and Anti Socials in the correct orders of magnitude. Lost Tech. Found to be the Why for stalled Bridge Progress. Planetary Clearing is now a reality. The time is now.
Moxie says
Gottenyu!
Old Surver Dude says
YOU??? I haven’t been declared since 1982!!! Do you have any idea how that effects my body thetans??? WELL? DO YOU!!!
Moxie says
Perhaps we should cluster together.
Aquamarine says
But first we’ll have Muster.
Moxie says
Muster Cluster Inc. at the MCI. Film at 11.
Brian says
If you threaten to go to the press to complain and make a PR flap they will stop. It’s how I got my money back in 82. Maybe it will work for you regarding mail.
jim says
So, Hubbard was incredibally intent on protecting his ‘secrets’ and went ballistic if criticized or investigated himself. It is almost enough to make one think that Hubbard had something to hide?
I find it curious that (first) Bill Cosby hit the news and courts with his 2D antics, and then Aftermath exposed the church’s 2D abuses, and now Hollywood power males are drug into the open over their 2D behaviors. I, for one, would like it if American’s began to focus more on family and family values.
((2D is Second Dynamic, is procreation and family))
James Rosso says
> …Hubbard had something to hide?
While that is possible and this behaviour would apply to a normal person trying to protect something, i don’t think that’s the case here.
Simply put, LRH was a megamaniacal narcissist who couldn’t stand to be criticized. Between the large amount of resources available to him (hundreds of brainwashed cultists) and the fact that the “secrets” he was trying to protect vary between lame and silly, i’d say that the “hates criticism” explanation is more likely.
jmsr
Harpoona Frittata says
It’s an excellent article and seemingly very well-sourced as well. With Tony O., Yashar and Ronan Farrow all working independently and on different aspects of the same huge story, there’s a very good chance it’s going to get blown wide open and all of the cult’s filthy linen will be put on public view some time soon.
Pro-tip for aspiring future criminal fraud organizations, posing as killer mind control cults: If you’re going to believe in your cult founder’s words as infallible, immutable Truth which must be followed to the letter without alteration, omission or question, then make sure that he never creates the kind of dirty tricks “Fair Game” playbook that Mike and others have documented so thoroughly.
The cult is unable to change, admit error, accept responsibility for its harmful actions or reform itself in any fundamental way, so it’s doomed itself to eventual extinction…we just need to help it down that path as quickly as its foot bullet-riddled feet will carry it!
WhatAreYourCrimes says
I don’t know what is left of their feet at this stage. Maybe that explains David Miscavige’s height?
They must have some hidden LRH tech for a rapid-fire foot bullet machine weapon.
Moxie says
After all those foot bullets, the only thing left are knee jerk reactions.
Cecybeans says
These tactics go back farther than Weinstein. Hitler and Goebbels used them, so did Stalin and Putin. In fact, they have a history in this country as well. Roy Cohn, Trump’s legal mentor, was the attorney that along with Joseph McCarthy and Hoover engineered the Red Scare about Communism during the 50’s. Comcommitant with that, but lesser known was what they called the Lavendar Scare, where homosexuals were looked at as high risks as Communist targets, and many lost their livelihoods for being outed. In fact, a group of them were blackmailed into being secret informers on their colleagues. In both situations, people were pressured to rat out potential suspects, who were then “investigated” using taxpayer money.
What was ironic, was that the whole thing blew up after it came out that Roy Cohn tried to manipulate the Army to get an alleged gay lover out of trouble. When the scandal went all the way to Eisenhower, Congress finally pulled the plug. But not until over 10,000 had lost their jobs during both those witch hunts, which had a decidedly anti-Semitic flavor.,
But those tactics of deny and attack are well known and used by almost every authoritarian bully and dictator on the planet. They are the de facto M.O. of almost all abuses of power. Pre-emptively accuse your enemies of what you are doing and persecute them ruthlessly, while maintaining the posture of the victim.
Fortunately, we are beginning to shine a light on this kind of aberrant and evil behavior.
I really enjoyed last night’s show. I remember trying to track down all the “false front” organizations that CoS ran in Clearwater in the 90s and it was almost impossible. A lot of them don’t even appear to be openly connected at all and are run through shell corporations. Even going through land titles was problematic.
CoS is not the only “religious” organization to own for-profit entitites. Many other tax exempt churches have run hospitals and all kinds of enterprises. Thrivent Financial is an organization owned and run by the Lutheran church. They started by providing insurance to parishoners and expanded to financial services available to the public. However, the government put certain restrictions on the amount of profit they could generate and return to the church.
I used to work for a large international non-profit who partnered with them. They give hundreds of millions to charities all over the world, and I was told that religiously run non-profits that actually make money in the public were required to donate a certain percentage of their profits to actual charitable organizations or they would lose their tax-exempt status.
I wonder if any of this would apply to Narconon and any of the others that charge for services? I would also think the IRS would be particularly interested in the creative internal accounting that the Way To Happiness gets to use in generating funding.
Even if CoS can’t be tax audited outright, can’t their propaganda arms be subject to closer government scrutiny? Churches have been successfully sued for defrauding parishoners. It doesn’t sound like Davey has his ducks in line when it comes to the ledgers of all his Cos satellites.
zemooo says
NarCONon served at least 3 purposes in its heyday.
1. It made money. 35k plus per stay with little real overhead is a profit making venture. NarCONon International and ABLE sucked up those profits in copyright fees and fees for anything they could come up with. Arrowhead had 100-200 ‘patients’ at any one time in its heyday. 200 times 35k times 4 ‘classes’ per year = 28 million tax free per year.
2. It was a plumb job used to reward loyal minions. NarCONon execs brought down over 100k in pay and each NarCONon location had at least 3 bottom feeders in the swine trough. Sure beats the sometimes $50/week Sea bOrg got paid.
3. NarCONon was never a real drug rehab, it was a ‘substitute a $cientology addiction for a drug addiction’ brain washing gulag. While Miscavage may have sung the praises of NarCONon, no one outside of the bubble ever thought about NarCONon. They were totally under the radar in the rehab world.
Cecybeans says
That in and of itself sounds like it is worth an investigation for abuse of tax-exempt status. Jeez what a racket!
Aquamarine says
Cecybeans, love your posts. You really do your homework.
Brian says
OSA:
This association, of Ron’s anti critic psy-ops tactics, with serial abuser Harvey Weinstein’s psy-ops tactics, is where David Miscavige has taken Scientology’s PR.
Your church is now cemented in association with these suppressive activities:
1) Sexual abuse
2) assault and battery
3) abusing underage children sexually
4) family abuse
5) psychological and emotional abuse
6) stealing people’s garbage
7) obsessive lying
8) greed
9) lacking empathy and sympathy
10) bigotry
11) hate
13) discrimination
14) unparalleled arrogance
15) creating fear
Have you all ever considered that David Miscavige is the SP?
It’s under his watch that all of this bad PR is attacking your church.
I know you are not allowed to have intellectual sovereignty and that your ability to have a free critical thought has been crushed by your Scientology education on critics……….
yet I think you know what I’m talking about. David Miscavige has destroyed the Church of Scientology.
Our entire culture, our whole society:
the press
all anti Scientology media sites world wide
the leaving of your major celebrities
YouTube
Fox News
NBC
CBS
ABC………..
ARE ALL NEGATIVE NEWS…….ALL!!!
YOUR STATS CONTINUE TO TANK AND YOU APPLY THE SAME OLD WORLD PARANOID TACTICS THAT BROUGHT YOU THIS CRAP ? PR IN THE FIRST PLACE.
This is where David Miscavige has taken your church. Since he is the ecclesiastical leader, he is the captain of your ship. He is single handedly destroying man’s only hope.
What are you going to do about it my dear OSA compadres.
Diane Cisneros Kekilian says
Oh my God, nailed it, dont forget these;
16. Bearing false witness
17 claiming grievances against anyone who does these thing to the church or it’s members
THANK YOU!
Newcomer says
18) Child Endangerment
19) Tax Evasion
Dave F. says
LRH’s Brainwashing Manual also opened my eyes, as to how the USA has been, and currently is, being dragged towards Socialism, Marxism, and, ultimately Communism. I’ll leave “Politics” (sorry) out of this discussion, but History is proving my observations from that manual to be correct.
Remember that Khrushchev said that the “USSR would take the United States, without firing a shot” . . . I believe that has been underway, for many decades !
Links :
http://www.freewebs.com/slyandtalledgy/Brainwashing%20Manual%20Parallels.pdf
http://www.apfn.org/pdf/The_Brainwashing_Manual.pdf
Everyone please share those links . . . They are “eye-opening”.
Mike Rinder says
The Brainwashing Manual was written by Hubbard or someone working for him. U will find Scientology terminology throughout it including “engrams”
PeaceMaker says
Mike, I didn’t see this comment until adding my thoughts to your earlier one.
Based on historical information I’ve seen, there is a possibility that someone outside Scientology wrote Brain-Washing, but that Hubbard then issued a version edited to reflect some of his ideas. There are apparently other versions, which may be earlier, without that language, though what Ambry (the first link) writes about that, seems to be in conflict with the other sources I’ve seen.
It has always struck me as ironic, that although Hubbard like to criticize Russia and communism, he created an organization with many parallels. His statement that guilty people accuse others of that which they themselves are doing (plagiarized from Freud’s and psychiatry’s concept of projection), seems to apply to doubly to him, his organizations and followers.
Alice says
The “SlyandTallEdgy” in the link above is our very own Brian! (previously known as “Sly And Tall Edgy Lurks” in regards to the Brainwashing manual and as Brian Ambry the co-author of “Messiah or Mad Man” with Bent Corydon)
Brians ears always perk up when his early work is mentioned. If you really want to play with him, defend OTIII to his face. (He won’t be able to tell you are joking). Sublime fun.
Decent music arranger. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2254134/
All kinds of OSA’s in the world aren’t there.
Foolproof says
Now this is interesting Brian – for the comments you make here about Miscavige I agree with 100%. Does that answer your question below?
Brian says
No it doesn’t. This is your answer? This is your answer?
BRIAN, I HAVE DELETED YOUR COMMENT. IT IS POINTLESS ENGAGING IN ANY BACK AND FORTH WITH FOOLPROOF. IT IS BOXING SHADOWS.
I NUKE HIS/HER RESPONSES THAT JUST ENGAGE IN TIT FOR TAT, NOW I AM DOING THE SAME TO YOU (AND HE/SHE COMPLAINS ABOUT BEING THE “ONLY PERSON” WHO HAS COMMENTS NUKED, CAN SEE THAT OTHERS SUFFER THE SAME FATE).
FOR THE RECORD, THIS WAS A LENGTHY RESPONSE…
SORRY YOU WASTED YOUR TIME, BUT YOU WILL BE BACK AT IT AGAIN WHEN YOU GET ANOTHER NON-RESPONSIVE “REPLY”
Brian says
Understood
Foolproof says
I was a pretty good boxer in my teens!
WhatAreYourCrimes says
Holy crap, Brian, I think you have been reading my mind. I could not have made a better comment.
CGarrison says
Scientology apparently believes those of us not enmeshed within their ‘saving the planet’ drive, are a bunch of lobotomy victims. We are just too dumb to help thy neighbor, give to a good cause, treat people as we wish to be treated, etc. Last time I interacted with the public at large I found some pretty fabulous people who walked the walk and talked the talk. I proudly stand outside the doors of Scientology salvation believeing in the intelligence and forthright virtues of my fellow human. Leave me alone, I dont want your kinda saving. ( personal note to Mr McSavage: definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over but expecting different results. )
Ammo Alamo says
Mike wrote: “And still, scientology carries on, apparently immune from the consequences of their blatant abuse of the rights of individuals and the system.”
The CoS carries on, for now, but the work of people like Mike and Leah, plus the reduced membership highlighted by all the empty Idle Morgs, and their aging Ronbot workforce are all signs that CoS is not immune from consequences. It will take time, but the membership numbers are on a race to the bottom. Look at recent revelations that Int base has been reduced to a much smaller group, only now they have nothing to do that is useful to CoS.
No amount of LRH tech can rescue them, because the tech is itself the problem – it’s bogus. If it worked, it might be great, but how can anyone argue with 60+ years of failure to produce anything like what he claimed? He made it all up (just ask Xenu and all the OT VIIIs with immense power over space and time), but did it in such a way as to dupe even smart people.
It seems irrational to me, but people out of CoS for ten years or more still write as if they believe in parts of the LRH scam. Anything with that sort of power will take awhile to go away, but it is not built on a foundation of permanence, so it will either change or die.
Nada Jurisich-Fontana says
I’ve been thinking the same thing about both Weinstein AND Trump M.O. feels like a page out of LRH’s G.O. ‘handbook’. “…NEVER DEFEND, ALWAYS ATTACK”. ( ie everyone start acting like an asshole- ??)
LDW says
If you’re going to get political, you surly must be aware of Hillary Clinton’s tactics regarding covering up her husband’s sexual misdeeds and smearing those who spoke out. Not to mention her use of Russian operatives to create a completely phony document maligning Trump.
Being a devout independent politically and a devout agnostic religiously it’s easy for one to see the duplicity in any camp.
But I believe Mike doesn’t want this blog to turn into political mudslinging.
The documented fact that Miscavige uses millions and millions of tax free dollars to play this game is the point. I can’t see any reason at all why the IRS should not investigate this nefarious activity and bill the Co$ for any non taxed monies which were used for activities which are so obviously not in alignment with the rules of their 501c3 tax exemption.
Some real oversight on abusing tax exempt status without stepping on truly beneficial activities is really needed.
azhlynne says
I can’t help but continue to wonder how deep they are in the LAPD and the DA’s office. Either overtly or covertly (or both?) something is truly, madly, deeply wrong.
Old Surver Dude says
I share your concerns.
Newcomer says
Follow the money. It is there somewhere or maybe it is just a new car or boat that shows up.
Old Surver Dude says
I’ll be waiting for my new boat…
Spike says
?
I Yawnalot says
From their side of the ledger there’s nothing wrong at all. It’s all a matter of perspective. For them, “getting caught,” is the madly, deeply wrong bit! Overt or covert? well… depends what works at the time.
Kris Nielsen says
Mike,
I have been watching you since I saw Going Clear. I was once given a copy of Dianetics by a co-worker back in 1993. I was not a good reader and hated books so I threw it in the back of my closet and think I finally gave it to Goodwill. I’m so glad I did but is there anything us non scientologists can do to help your cause??
I would be more than honored to help in any way
Mike Rinder says
Contact your Congressperson and ask them to investigate. Tell your friends and family and raise their awareness on the subject.
Kris Nielsen says
Thank You Mike I will be contacting my Arizona reps today!!
Newcomer says
And you can sign the petition at change.org asking for the cherch to investgate their tax exempt status.
WhatAreYourCrimes says
Boycott any and all scientology celebrity product. Convince your family and friends to do the same.
Carolyn says
Isn’t this how they recieved IRS tax exemption. Infiltrating the IRS? Digging up dirt on employees. Filing lawsuits against them. Time for the IRS to stand up to their bullies.
SaritaS aka TOOT TO OT says
How did I ever HELP this awful awful group of mobsters?!
Oh, I know how: I was raised in it and taught how to behave toward anyone that was a critic. Brainwashed.
I hope (with more sincerity than ever in my life) that David Miscaviage and all of his mobster crew GO. TO. JAIL.
The hate they firehose out into the world will find its way back to the source, please sooner than later.
Cheryl Carr-Hofmann says
David Miscaviage is a coward and is probably hiding in some bunker he has and will most likely kill himself first before he ever gets caught.
Julee says
Ephesians 5:11 ‘Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, instead even expose them.’ Thankful for all that you and Leah are doing to expose this cult Mike.
Bonnie Johnson says
Didn’t Hubbard say that it didn’t matter if a court case was won it was the intimidation that it causes. Just read an article where a judges Collie dog was drowned. Didn’t the IRS basicly give $ci back it’s exempt status in lieu of all the lawsuits $ci’s had brought being dropped? Shocking the kind of money $ci spent tracking Broeker.
Old Surver Dude says
Bonnie, I’ve had two instances where they sent out people who parked right in front of my driveway. I thought this might be a good time to show the cult member my brand new Bowie knife. I let him see the knife as I walked towards him. I never even got to his truck as he sped off. The other one was a gal who’s phone was glued to her ear (getting instructions?). She, too, was blocking my driveway. I walked over to her with a big smile on my face and said, “Why the fuck are you blocking my driveway,” with my best tone 40. She started to stammer and quickly drove away. So, as you can see, I actually do have Super Powers!
Moxie says
That’s the spirit OSD!
Old Surver Dude says
I just don’t like being spied on.
Brian says
In 82 or 83, during the great “get L Ron Hubbard’s BS “religion” away from me; my friend kept getting knocks on the door from weird people.
They were harassing him and he knew they were B1 (GO street thugs).
One day he came to the door, cocked his double barreled ethics officer, and showed them his shot gun.
They never came back.
Moxie says
Applying correctly the correct technology!
Old Surver Dude says
That technology is duly noted. But, it’s still all bullshit.
Moxie says
I was referring to shotgun tech!
I Yawnalot says
Crocodile Dundee couldn’t have done it better.
Bonnie Johnson says
OSD, that’s interesting there were only two?, I thought they roamed in packs.
Old Surver Dude says
Well, I really don’t think they’re sending out members like that. This happened about 10 years. No one has bothered me since.
Cindy says
Way to go, Old Surfer Dude!
Rick says
I vaguely remember the ’94 We have won BS celebration. I left in ’96.
Did Miscavige openly refer under camera to harassing the IRS with hundreds of frivolous lawsuits ? … …
“we kept the IRS busy …” …
or later … sometime around the time he said he visited IRS Commissioner Emery (Emory?) prior to his nightline interview … an internal OSA VHS video … if I remember right …
Maybe there’s a smoking bullet (VHS) somewhere …
Patricia Harpe says
Mind blowing! Puts me in mind of the KGB
Gloria Anima says
Every week I think to myself, now the shitstorm is going to hit and then nuthin honey. Now with this info I really truly think it’s gonna hit. Keep swinging Mike and Leah keep swinging.
Rob says
Do you think the “church” will ever be dissolved? Is it possible?
Bonnie Johnson says
Probably not, there are too many people that are loyal to it but It could be lessened. Seems they have gotten rid of people that had pedigree. They got hold of Annie because people said she knew where all the bodies were buried and I think that’s why they chased after Pat for so long (he knew too much).
Bruce Ploetz says
Bonnie, they had another compelling reason to target Pat Broeker. He was working with Hubbard during his last days, and they thought that possibly Hubbard created some levels above OT VIII. They desperately need these levels, otherwise the whole Scientology “Bridge to Total Freedom” is a dead end. They thought that Pat had some of this information, or some records that Hubbard made of the last sessions that he did on himself.
Fact is, Hubbard never did anything useful above OT VIII and admitted to Sarge Pfauth near the end that he had failed. And the “levels” up to OT VIII are also the worthless meanderings of a lost soul. So all that money was wasted on needlessly harassing Pat Broeker. Hope he tells his story some day. https://scicrit.wordpress.com/2014/02/13/l-ron-hubbard-attempted-sucicide/
Tom Provenzano says
So true. This information is something every current practicing Scientologist should know! Thanks Bruce for reminding us how faulty this bridge actually was.
Foolproof says
As to your 2nd paragraph above perhaps Miscavige should have just listened to you Bruce as you seem to have amazing inside information that there are no OT Levels above VIII although I can’t quite wrap my wits around the fact that the previous “old” OT Levels of IV-VII are still extant, so that FACT would immediately invalidate your theory! How do you explain that? And as to your estimation of the levels below OTVIII this also shows the vast amounts of knowledge you have – one sweeping statement and all is explained! Or are you just making it all up and hoping no one notices?
First time also I have ever heard this idea (of yours I assume?) re Broeker and the records of “the last sessions” Hubbard made. Or is that also invented?
Mike Rinder says
None of this is invented.
You should perhaps pay more attention to the people who were actually there and spend less time trying to defend the indefensible.
I was part of the armed raid that went to the secret property in Newberry Springs to get the files that Pat Broeker supposedly had of the “OT levels beyond VIII” but there were no such thing…
What the old OT levels “prove” is absolutely nothing. They are not OT IX to XV – don’t believe me, read up on what L. Ron Hubbard claimed about OT levels beyond OT VIII.
Forever Lurker says
Mike,
I prepaid $32,000 for an OT 9&10 package around 1990. I wonder why. The informational letter promoting this future service was on RTC letterhead.
Who else was part of that raid and knew the “truth” at the time?
Why did you and the others sit on this information and not go public then? Seems like this was a pretty important revelation.
Would you be willing to reveal all and write a detailed posting about all the subterfuge and shore story invention that obviously went on at that time, naming names and describing the events in more detail? I think this is supremely important.
Cheers, Forever Lurker
Mike Rinder says
I did not know that the filing cabinets and papers gotten in that raid contained nothing. Miscavige pretenses for years that he had gotten everything he needed and it would be released in good time. It was Marty Rathbun that eventually put all the pieces together for me after I had left. Including making sense of conversations I witnessed Miscavige having with or about Ray Mithoff.
I Yawnalot says
Maybe there’s a confusion with Bill Robinson’s work on his Bridge? Supposedly based on Hubbard’s. There’s a couple of dozen levels above 8 I believe. It’s all gobbledygook to me, had a look at it once upon a time but could stop the left eye counter rotating to the right.
I’ll stick to the story of the Lady in the Lake and swords in stone for my Excalibur references.
Mike Rinder says
This just goes into endless speculation — Foolproof is going to try to keep this going by claiming I don’t REALLY know what I am talking about and pulling out some old quotes from Hubbard about how he has “notes” about “many forthcoming OT levels” as “proof” they exist. From the same document that said Super Power would be available in 6 weeks at St Hills. And similar to “curing amnesia on the whole track”. Not going down that rabbit hole. Anyone can keep believing they are eventually going to get to eat the carrot. Those who keep doing so can be described as persistent or stupid — all depends on your viewpoint.
Moxie says
Persistently stupid.
Dave F. says
BULLS-EYE, Mike . . . Nice shot !
Moxie says
Bill Robertson.
Old Surver Dude says
I was persistently stupid once. Man, did I enjoy being an idiot. There’s nothing like persistently being stupid.
Foolproof says
No, there is no confusion with Bill Robertson’s levels, at least not on my part. So please don’t try and muddy and ridicule the topic by interjecting this.
I Yawnalot says
There are 2 categories to stupid imo – knowingly and unknowingly.
Scientology and its Bridge to Stupid are of the second variety. It’s is a mess of a thing to buy into.
I Yawnalot says
Foolproof, who in the f**k are you to tell anyone what they should or shouldn’t say on this site? I had you pegged as Scientology Thought Police sometime back, now I know I’m right! You don’t own other’s people’s right to comment. Who are you to monitor another’s thinking and try to control the threads?
Being “accurate” with Scientology is a study of aligning bullshit to further more bullshit. You trying to be the grand pooh bar? Sheesh, what insolence?
What… ESMB threw you out?
Moxie says
Ouch.
WhatAreYourCrimes says
Sweet rebuke of Foolproof. What is the game of that guy/gal anyway?
Dave F. says
No offense, Mike ( You know my heart and I pray for you ) . . . BUT, if your little “armed raiding party” had come to my house, by mistake, you would have needed a good supply of body bags. My policy is to shoot first, aim dead center ( head shots, if I suspect body armor ), and then yell “Freeze, show me your hands” . . . Calling 911, at all, is only an “option” in our house . . . God bless you, Mike and DOWN WITH SCIENTOLOGY !
Moxie says
Foolproof, I suggest you choose a different name.
Bruce Ploetz says
Moxie, I’ve tried every rhetorical trick and nothing “impinges” on these folks. Time and the inevitable failures will have to be the remedy that brings them to their senses. No point in trying to convince an addict before they hit rock bottom – simple truth just doesn’t make sense in their world.
Moxie says
I hear you Bruce. Agreed.
Old Surver Dude says
New name? Proof that he’s a fool?
Foolproof says
Well, try not making generalizations and try not to just simply label something as bad based on your personal bias towards the subject.
Foolproof says
No, no, the name is quite apt, as evidenced by the foolish comments my comments receive. “Water off a duck’s back” might be a better one?
Moxie says
The injustice of it all – I understand. I feel the same way when people on this blog accuse me of being a comedian.
Old Surver Dude says
Hey! I thought I was the comedian around here?
Brian says
Foolproof, you are a Scientologist. You are not a post DM Scientologist; you are a Scientologist.
How do I know?
Because you always attack personally the people you disagree with.
I do not think you are who you say your are. I think you work for the church and you are paid to have the made up identity of someone who can weasel into anti Scientology blogs.
1) You say you are for reformed Scientology but you personally attack people who offer areas that need change.
2) You never ask to form allegiance with those who want to promote the good of Scientology. Even though you imply that the good in Scientology needs rescuing.
3) you give lip service to Hubbard’s abuses to look like you fit in.
That’s my take on you Foolproof. You are a protector of Hubbard and an attacker of critics. And the word for that person is……
Scientologist.
Newcomer says
Another troll floats to the surface of the shithole known as $cientology!
Dear OSA,
You guys otta be able to do better ……. but ………. you are in a special circumstance. You are hopelessly locked into a modern organization of ‘Hitler Youth’ proportions. I suppose you all will go down with the ship of see ogres.
You might be foolproof but you are obviously not idiotproof!
Moxie says
Newcomer, there was a typo. It should be Factproof.
mwesten says
And as to your estimation of the levels below OTVIII this also shows the vast amounts of knowledge you have – one sweeping statement and all is explained!
It’s an opinion. Don’t take it personally. Why not counter it with reasoned discourse rather than a skimpy sneer.
Brian says
Anytime
Foolproof says
What you and others are saying is that “Scientology (technology) doesn’t work”. There are thousands of people and hundreds that I know personally who state otherwise. As for a reasoned discourse you just have to view the comments about me on this thread to realize that such will never occur. I would like it to occur but – it never does. I just get accused of being on DM’s payroll as the latest example. I am even being accused of being a “Scientologist” (gasps of horror!) And a troll and what else, well, read the above. Don’t accuse me of not wanting a reasoned discourse – all I get is ad hominem remarks. I am surprised that you can’t see that.
Brian says
What parts of Scientology do you want revisited and given the axe?
Please list PLs, HCOBs and your recommendation on culling these doctrines from civil society.
Please keep it very brief. Or I’ll loose interest
Dave F. says
I want to go all the way back to the day that Xenu started loading up his DC-8’s, before leaving for Teegeeack, and “give the axe” to everything about Scientology, from that point in time, forward !
mwesten says
What you and others are saying is that “Scientology (technology) doesn’t work”. There are thousands of people and hundreds that I know personally who state otherwise.
Argumentum ad populum. People have been arguing over this for decades. The kind of juvenile all-or-nothing, black-and-white claptrap you typically find being spewed on Twitter and YouTube. Why do you even care? There are so many different viewpoints, so many different experiences; are you really that bothered about such diversity of opinion? If you believe in its workability, surely that’s all that matters. Just be aware that anecdotes and hearsay are unlikely to convert the critical thinker or the more scientifically minded.
As for a reasoned discourse you just have to view the comments about me on this thread to realize that such will never occur. I would like it to occur but – it never does. I just get accused of being on DM’s payroll as the latest example. I am even being accused of being a “Scientologist” (gasps of horror!) And a troll and what else, well, read the above. Don’t accuse me of not wanting a reasoned discourse – all I get is ad hominem remarks. I am surprised that you can’t see that.
Perhaps you might fare better by appearing less combative (and, errm, “serfacy”). Or maybe some people are just rude. Either way, however extreme, it’s all just a result of imperfect human beings trying to reach eachother. Attempting to understand someone, and why they believe as they do, takes a whole lot of time and can often be uncomfortable. It’s far easier, is it not, to simply dismiss them, sneer and move on.
Moxie says
Scientology definition of OT: Cause over MEST (Mudslinging, Eavesdropping, Slander and Thievery)
Old Surver Dude says
Yep! That’s certainly SOP.
Bright Wright says
IRS should check PI and attorney income from Co$. Are this incomes also taxfree??
Diane Cisneros Kekilian says
Spying on an individual is now considered illegal, in the 50s and 60s ITs had no defense. Now there are several groups who support the ban on this criminal activity.
My life is an open book, that’s why I will purposely use my real name everywhere. My father worked on creating these satellite systems and several projects for spyware while at JPL in the late 50s and early 60s.
Satellite Remote Listening System: a satellite mounted system that can eavesdrop on a targeted area on the surface of the planet in coordination with satellite cameras. This project is in its infant stage.
DARPA Silent Talk: A planned program attempting to identify EEG patterns for words and transmit these for covert communications.
SyNAPSE: Systems of Neuromorphic Adaptive Plastic Scalable Electronics
Now we even have voice to skull technology.
Mike, thanks for this post, we appreciate everything you have done for us.
Aquamarine says
Diane C K,
What is “voice to skull technology”? Google gave me no joy.
Also, if you don’t mind, what do “JPL” and “DARPA” stand for?
Thanks.
Diane Cisneros Kekilian says
Spyware, Google spyware, Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena Ca. I’m 54 now, so I guess I would know what my dad helped create. When I see the for lease sign in front of the Scientology Bldg. in Hollywood, then and only then will I ever forgive.
Aquamarine says
I understand, Diane. I wasn’t inferring that you were wrong or had no right to your point of view. I just didn’t understand these terms and couldn’t find them via Google, so thanks for explaining.
Dave F. says
“JPL” = Jet Propulsion Laboratory
The Jet Propulsion Laboratory is a federally funded research and development center and NASA field center in La Cañada Flintridge, California and Pasadena, California, United States
“DARPA” = Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency
The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency is an agency of the United States Department of Defense responsible for the development of emerging technologies for use by the military
“Voice to Skull” – aka “V2K”
https://www.google.com/search?ei=zIYKWsf5IsjBmwGYhbGADg&q=voice+to+skull+communication&oq=communication+voice+skul&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i8i13i30k1.57148.74804.0.78145.26.25.1.0.0.0.2334.4667.15j9j9-1.25.0….0…1.1.64.psy-ab..0.26.4677…0j0i131k1j0i22i30k1j33i21k1j33i160k1.0.TUifvn2mf0U
https://www.google.com/search?ei=HIcKWvnHA4WomwGt5qXQAQ&q=%22V2K%22&oq=%22V2K%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i67k1l3j0l7.204017.207987.0.209095.5.5.0.0.0.0.109.468.4j1.5.0….0…1.1.64.psy-ab..0.4.375…0i131k1.0.VXu9pqTJP6A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K63_dsXQwsk
Aquamarine says
Dave F, thank you for these explanations and links. I now understand these terms more fully.
Dave F. says
You’re very welcome !
Dave F.