The new episode of Scientology: Fair Game Podcast is now available here.
We interview one of Heber Jentzsch’s nieces, Tammy Clark.
Tammy reached out to me and Leah as she was concerned about Heber. Many members of the rather large family had not heard from him and she was so concerned she thought it necessary to fly from Utah to try to see him as a representative of the family. But she was fearful of scientology and asked that we help her.
Leah and I were more than happy to provide her support and a camera crew from The Aftermath accompanied us. Unfortunately, this is one of the shows that did not make it to air for various reasons. We feel it is important to tell Tammy’s courageous story, what happened when she tried to get the Riverside County Sheriffs to help and how scientology Fair Gamed her after the fact.
Heber had been incarcerated in The Hole at the scientology headquarters (Golden Era Productions, also known as Gold or Int Base) in Riverside County CA near Hemet. There had been reports he was not in good health, and he had not been seen in public for many years.
Here are some documents that are relevant to the podcast. I won’t repeat the story here — it is an episode worth listening to.
This “good roads, fair weather” letter from Heber to Tammy from May 2018 was the last communication she had with her uncle.
To give some context to the actions of the Riverside County Sheriff’s Office, this is a video taken by some protestors outside the Gold Base where the Sheriff’s deputy says: “We don’t care what they do on the other side of the fence.”
This is the Sheriff’s report documenting the welfare check they did perform on Heber without Tammy present:
The “welfare check” was conducted with Heber’s “full-time nurse” present at all times, after the deputies were fully briefed by Catherine Fraser and Muriel Dufresne (the “PR” people for the Gold Base). Cathy Fraser was one of the “inch wives” who appeared on Anderson Cooper and has also been seen in various other footage from media who went to film at Gold Base. A rather unpleasant woman. Muriel was the woman who showed up chasing down Marc Headley when he made his escape as covered in his excellent book, Blown for Good.
Heber’s “full-time nurse” is Jeanette (Nettie) Allcock. She is not a nurse. She is his “minder.”
Scientology acknowledges Heber has medical issues, but refused to disclose what they were or what doctor he was visiting or why he needed a “full-time nurse.”
Despite these facts, the conclusion by the Sheriffs was that he “appeared to be in good health” — though as you will hear from Tammy, they did not even ask him to stand up.
It didn’t take long before scientology had a lawyer on the job “representing my client Heber Jentzsch.”
Her letter raised even more concerns — was Heber now suffering mental deterioration as well as physical? She now claims he has “never met” Tammy???And that she has “no personal basis” for requesting a welfare check?
He “chose to retire” — not something that has ever been announced to the scientology world. In fact, there is no NEW President CSI?
And she claims the RCSO stated this was a “publicity stunt.”
When asked to confirm they had told scientology that this was a “publicity stunt,” the Sheriff Dept responded:
Julia Azrael has not been heard from since.
But soon after Tammy returned to her home in Utah, scientology did what it is prone to do: Keep proving the contributors to Scientology and The Aftermath right.
They do exactly the things that confirm what everyone keeps saying they do.
They launched a “noisy investigation” and flew two Private Investigator to Tammy’s home to threaten her pursuant to Hubbard’s words of wisdom about “investigating noisily”:
The PI they sent was Rebecca Dobkin. You can read a bit about her here on Tony Ortega’s blog when she went to visit Karen De La Carriere and Jeffrey Augustine (and note the name of the attorney in this piece and the letter appended to the end of the RCSO report above).
And for those looking for help leaving scientology, here is a link to Aftermath Foundation
Thank you. I am also a relative of Heber. My grandmother was one of his sisters. We have tried for years to get in contact with him but have only received scientology videos and books in return.
And HOW do we know that the person “interviewed” was Heber? What ID did he show?
At the first IAS event in Copenhagen Heber told the public that operating thetans used their boots at the crusade in Portland.
Many use their boots but more use their operating thetan powers instead and it’s a big mistake.
With boots is it possible to leave something sucking.
Excellent podcast .
Unfortunately Heber’s signature , on « his « letter « to Tammy , indicates that he has some kind of dementia , I have seen handwriting deterioration in family members very similar to his , dementia from Alzheimer’s or after a stroke.
Beyond sad because hopeless .
The last time I heard from Heber was through my friend Mario who was invited to Alexander’s memorial at the Manor . I begged him to take me with him as I was not in good standing but not declared yet and nobody seemed very interested in me, so I could take a good look at him. Mario couldn’t take me but promised he would look closely and talk to him.
Heber gave him the same story , retired , taking it easy , writing a book . He seemed to be in good health at the time and told Mario not to believe the internet .
The shocker was that this memorial felt more like a PR stunt than a terribly tragic event
. It reminded me of Manon Sherman ‘s memorial , wife of Dan Sherman . No eulogy , no celebration of this funny , lively and smart woman . I was there and it felt so dangerous to me that I didn’t get up and talk . Granted I didn’t know anything at the time about what was going on behind the scene , but the urgency to get this « ceremony » over was palpable. It was dark like the heart of this organization.
Hi Marie, I was good friends with Manon a long time ago and was always curious what happened to her. Can you send me an email and let me know?
I love the podcast and show. I was born and raised in a Christian cult but a cult is a cult and it’s been extremely theraputic for me learning about Scientology.
I’d like to share a wider-cult-based thought based on this episode. When y’all were discussing how the sheriff wouldn’t take Tammy on site with them for the welfare check I was relieved, though sad for this specific situation. After I had left the group I was raised in at age 20, I was living over 2,000 miles away from where my family was and my parents refused my refusals to see them, came to my town (I didn’t give them any personal information about my life at all, even where I worked or my address) and somehow my dad figured it out and showed up at my work, stalking me for 6 hours, while I hid in the back. I can only imagine how my parents (still in this other cult) or how the Scientology goons would use “welfare checks” to forcefully see former / current members. When I left that group I was raised in I was on extremely psychologically thin ice, I didn’t even know it was a cult. All I knew was if I didn’t leave I’d end up killing myself, the psychological abuse over a lifetime builds up. Simply seeing my parents, knowing they were in the same physical area as me was terrifying. It was a huge threat to my mental stability.
I wish Tammy was able to see her uncle and that law enforcement could reliably understood cults, the manipulation and coercion used, etc. my heart goes out to the family, and to her trapped uncle. But at the same time I am so thankful there is at least one tool that these evil, completely myopic groups do NOT have access to be able to use all aspects of the law to further abuse people.
I am unclear as to whether the police saw Heber in person or on Zoom or some other video thing? Or did they merely talk to him by phone?
Unless they saw him in person, and could confirm it was him, then anyone could have just said they were Heber. If he had a stroke, he may not be able to speak clearly in which case they would get someone else to talk on the phone. So did the police or his niece actually see him?
lf I recall correctly, some time back someone escaped from Int and said Heber had had a stroke. Was that the girl who escaped in the trunk of the car that reported on Heber? OR maybe an RPFer who escaped? Where or who did she get the report he had had a stroke from? Enquiring minds want to know.
And in true Scn fashion, the church hires a lawyer to turn it around that he is a victim of his niece, and to threaten and bluster. It’s all by the OSA playbook.
They saw him in person — but he was never alone.
Jane, they’ll never change; they CAN’T.
Those who refuse to think about the beliefs and actions of their victims can never be your friend. I’ve learned this fact though direct experience. Someone I thought of as a friend tried to steal some firearms I owned while I was confined in a hospital. This person didn’t understand that I would attempt to solve the alleged problem independently instead of simply turning the firearms over to him. I tried to post my actual experiences as a pizza delivery driver on a forum on the Underground Bunker and was called a liar for my trouble.
I am sure he would have been a great Dad to Akexander Karen, if only he had been allowed to. So sad that Scientology robbed you both of precious time with Alexander. And then for him to be robbed of his life at such a young age. Just heartbreaking. 💔
Miscavige banishing Heber Jentzsch, or anyone else for that matter, to the hole creates an anger in me that is unquenchable. COB, try to get a handle on your sociopath tendencies. It ain’t pretty, little man.
We think of The Holocaust and The Killing Fields as unique events, but they weren’t. The perpetrators of The Holocaust and The Killing Fields thought of themselves as good people and their victims as evil people. We think of Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot as as evil people, and they were, but they were just individuals, it was their followers that gave them the power to commit atrocities. I went over to the Underground Bunker and those who would commit the next great atrocity were already posting in the forum. The monsters who would commit the next great atrocity are never under the bed, they’re staring at us in the bathroom mirror.
What are you talking about??
Mass murder.
I’m wondering the same thing.
Huh? There is a reading key to be used?
I went over to the Underground Bunker and those who would commit the next great atrocity were already posting in the forum.
What are you insinuating with “those who would commit the next great atrocity…”?
On the subject of the Int Base, the Apple fire is raging over the ridge from there, in the Beaumont area.
Pray for our former brothers and sisters that the wind doesn’t shift south and blow the fire over the ridge. They may deserve justice but not that.
https://data.desertsun.com/fires/
I didn’t know what an “inch wife” was, so I did a search for it, and was surprised to find it difficult to find a reference. I had expected it to be a general slang term. There was a quote from Mike‘s ex-wife, where she says that she knew every inch of Mike’s body. Is this what you mean, Mike?
Yes, exactly. She and others on the show said the same thing about knowing every inch of their husband’s bodies as supposed proof that there were no physical assaults at the Int base.
O/T. Fox News also has a story about Leah’s response to Karen Bass:
Leah Remini calls out Karen Bass for past praise of Scientology: Victims ‘deserve better from you’
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/leah-remini-karen-bass-scientology-vp
In addition, Peter Hasson and Chuck Ross at the Daily Caller have another story about Karen Bass.
This story has another Scientology tie-in.
EXCLUSIVE: Karen Bass Denies Links To Nation Of Islam, Despite Photos And Event Appearances, But Doesn’t Disavow Radical Group
https://dailycaller.com/2020/08/03/karen-bass-nation-of-islam-louis-farrakhan/
* * * * * BEGIN EXCERPT * * * * *
The Church of Scientology awarded [Minister Tony] Muhammad its highest honor in 2017. The DCNF reported Friday that Bass praised the Church of Scientology at a ribbon-cutting ceremony for one of its facilities in Los Angeles in 2010.
* * * * * END EXCERPT * * * * *
5he word “awarded ‘links to Tony Ortega’s YouTube video of Minister Tony Muhammad receiving the Scientology IAS Freedom Medal.
Imaberrated – Sorry, I have no idea how my O/T comment got posted as a reply to your comment. I will be more careful next time.
Wasn’t there something mentioned where Heber was put into a Police Car and questioned? As mentioned above, Int Base is now virtually a retirement home – the members of the hole are now in the berthing buildings. If they got raided, all these people would say they don’t want to leave. Their brains are so fried they still think LRH is returning.
“Whatever happens behind that fence…”
“Whatever happens on that private island…”
“Whatever happens in those barracks… ”
Like it says on the sign, “Arbeit macht frei”. (Work makes you free).
Would that it were so, enough pointless make-work has been done behind that razor-wire to make a thousand angels free.
But it will go on indefinitely, as long as those who could do something about it look, but refuse to see.
Heber and I have been friends since he walked into Celebrity Centre, in I think in 1969.
We performed together and stayed in touch until he was sequestered. He was the spokesman for Scientology for many years. He did much to defend the cherch and was effective.
Miscavige I am sure saw him as a threat. He was warm, articulate, fast on his feet and likable and he had a great laugh. The complete opposite of the exalted COB.
I hope the cult collapses before he dies. I’d like to see him again. Such a waste of talent. He would have been a well known actor if he had joined Scientology.
I agree with you. That is exactly how I remember him and he was so excited to become a star someday. He was especially proud if his singing part in “Paint Your Wagon.” It seems his acting career was short lived.
I have never heard anyone speak anunkind word about Heber.
It would be so nice if all his friends and family could see him before he is taken from us through death.
Time is running out.
Yes! Geoff. DM was jealous of Heber’s following. He was more popular than DM and so he must be squashed. Thou shalt have no other Gods before me is DM’s motto.
What a great expose.
Heber Jentzsch was never allowed to be a Dad.
He was only permitted to see our son Alexander Jentzsch 11x in 15 years
for no more than a couple of hours.
For those who want to learn more of what happened and why Alexander
was dead at 27 years old..this is Chris Shelton’s blog telling the story.
https://mncriticalthinking.com/alexander-jentzsch-scientology-tragedy-3-acts/
I know your story of course but I must say once more that I’m so sorry, Karen. What a huge, heartless, senseless waste. Such a tremendous loss for your boy and for you and for his father. No words, really.
Thank you for your kindness
Thank you Acquamarine.
Lots of lessons learned.
What a terrible price to pay, to be a dedicated scientologist. I am sad for all your suffering over the years because of that evil organization hatched out of the twisted mind of LRH.
I much appreciate your words
I am sure he would have been a great Dad to Akexander Karen, if only he had been allowed to. So sad that Scientology robbed you both of precious time with Alexander. And then for him to be robbed of his life at such a young age. Just heartbreaking. 💔
Thanks so much Tammy.
Karen, I’m so sorry for what happened to your son. The church has blood on its hands.
Your words are valued, thanks Cindy.
I’ve spent the last hour reading about you, Heber, and Alex’s story and I wish i could give you a hug. I’m glad you got out.
I’m going to posit that the letter Heber wrote to Tammy in 2018 was not his composition, but that of his handlers. Nobody writes like that. It is definitely a Hubbard-esqe “good roads, fair weather” contrivance.
I was going to dissect this letter piece by piece but then I realized that virtually every line is complete bullshit.
I’ve had Heber stay at my house before and I can vouch for the fact that he does not speak or write like that. As others have noted, Heber was known for his charm and presence. He could also turn on the asshole if need be. Any scientologist can do this, with or without training, if they feel threatened. I’ve done it myself and I’ve seen Heber do it too.
My first experience of this was when he was on some sort of national tv program back in the mid 80s. I think it might have been 60 Minutes. I was doing some scientology courses and came home late in the evening to a have a couple of roommates announce to me that they just watched a scientology executive (Heber) on tv and he made a complete ass of himself. Without seeing the program myself, I knew exactly how it went down because I have seen these obstructionist shenanigans by scientologists before. I was embarrassed and just went to my room to avoid any prying questions. I later heard Heber on KFI radio in LA being interviewed and Dennis E. (sorry, can’t remember his last name but someone will) was also there ready to spill the beans on OT III. Heber was so out of control that the interviewer had to shut off his microphone.
Deep down, Heber is a genuinely nice guy when he’s being Heber, not Heber the scientologist. Too bad that the real Heber is so deeply buried in his prison of belief that there is little chance he will ever see the light of day. As the saying goes, “it’s never too late”, but in Heber’s case I’m afraid it is way too late unless he has some centenarian genes and gets past the razor wire fence TODAY. Razor wire? Yup, I’m betting Heber is living at Int Base, not 6331 Hollywood Blvd as is noted on his personal stationary.
Regardless, it’s a shame that the scientologists still in can’t see what is happening right before their eyes. Even the OSA net nannies monitoring these obscure blogs on the fringes of the internet have got to wonder where the hell is Heber, Shelly, Guillaume, etc. What ever became of Mary Sue, Diana, Suzette, Arthur, Quentin and all of the the others Hubbard mentioned in the taped lectures and bulletins that record his ramblings. These disappearances were one of the things that woke me up. Hopefully those missing folks will have the same effect on others.
Everybody at the Int Base uses the Hollywood Blvd address. The Gilman Springs Road address is supposed to be a big secret. Heber is definitely living at the Int Base, as is Diana as far as we know. The other names you mention are either deceased or escaped.
From what I have heard here and there, Dave Miscavige hasn’t been up there for years. The studios in LA could do all the videos that used to be done up there. The technical training films have all been redone with outside actors, so no need to constantly reshoot them whenever somebody escapes and needs to be “disappeared” from a film.
The huge Film Lab is useless since they went to digital film distribution. No need for cassette production, all is on CD now. Pressed in LA. E-Meter manufacturing, that used to be done at Gold has been off-shored to China.
So the only remaining purpose for the Int Base is to keep the aging International Management Structure of Scientology out of the public eye. They can’t tell any tales if they can’t get out. And what tales they could tell!
An authoritarian old-folks home for the politically dangerous possible rivals to Dave Miscavige. With all the checks and balances that were promised to the IRS sequestered off the communication lines, there is no one to stand up to him at all.
He is supposedly the Chairman of the Board, Religious Technology Center. Where are the other board members? If a corporation in the public eye were run this way the Feds would be shutting it down like nothing you’ve ever seen. Even Bezos and Musk only wish they had that kind of completely ruthless totalitarian control.
“So the only remaining purpose for the Int Base is to keep the aging International Management Structure of Scientology out of the public eye.”
No more double wide trailers. Effectively this would make the entire Int Base The Hole. Miscavige’s Ideal Hole.
Thank you for sharing your experiences and insight on Heber. I remember his humor, his laugh, his love of family. That is the genuine Heber. I watched Heber on Geraldo and that was the Scientology Heber, not the Heber I knew and loved. The Heber I knew was also intelligent and talented.
We can only hope that he could somehow leave and come out from behind those wire fences and be free to see all of his loved ones that he has not seen in years, but time is running out.
.
Tammy your presence is very important. Thank you.
All this fuss because a nice wants to see her old uncle and check if he his well. One could get the impression that the involved members of the Church of Scientology have something to hide.
This “good roads, fair weather” letter is so cheesy but nonetheless compiled as SOP as per Scientology policy.
A normal reaction would have been to invite his niece for a visit to see him.
Welcome to the former Gilman Hot Springs
Such a lonely place (such a lonely place)
Such a twisted fate
They’re holing them up at the former Gilman Hot Springs
What a bad surprise (what a bad surprise)
When you lose your mind
Last thing he remembers
He was running for the door
He had to find the passage back
To the place he was before
“Relax”, said the in-charge
“We are programmed to deceive
You can check out any time you like
But you can never leave”
Looking forward to your podcast.
I may be wrong, but doesn’t the agreement with the IRS stipulate that changes in directorship or officers be reported to them?
It has been a long time, but in 1994 I was at the IRS Reading Room in Washington, DC looking at about 12 linear feet of documents that comprised Scientology’s responses to questions the IRS had asked. Among these were org structure outlines, with lists of officers of the various tentacles. I recall the watchdog committee, RTC, CSI, etc.
If Heber’s retired, who IS president of CSI? If no one refilled these positions, shouldn’t the IRS re-examine its already-peculiar agreement?
Chukicita, Heber wasn’t the “President” of CSI in a corporate sense. It is a PR position not a management job. So, not an issue
Watching that video, wow! It’s not his business what’s happening on the other side of the fence. So, slave labor (often by underage teenagers), beatings, holding people against their will, forced abortions, that’s NOT the business of law enforcement? Just…….WOW! And then he practically says outright that they’ve been thoroughly bribed by Scientology! Yikes.
Met Heber in an airport on a Caribbean Island in 1988 after visiting the Freewinds. I thought this man is the most atypical Scientologist I ever met. He was very friendly , engaged in conversation, and had a lot of class.
I absolutely thought the same when I met him. In fact I had the privilege of working with him twice briefly, as his assistant in Portland 1985 and later that year when he came to St Hill. He told an anecdote like no other, and was very engaging and witty. I have no doubt he was made to disappear because he had a stage presence that DM could only dream of. He was a firm favourite with the public at events and a complete contrast to DM’s endless droning anodyne word salad monologues.
Later Heber put away what honor he had and started regging for IAS donations as a primary function.
Can’t wait to listen at the new episode.
I remember Herber being liked and accepted also from people outside the cult and media.
Now they have just DM, that has to get people doing tons of videos about him singing like angels how he is a great leader, the savior, very compassionate (really?), humorous, dedicated, etc.
Nothing about “kindness”? This would be too much even for these bootlickers.
I saw him on Phil Donahue many years ago…he was a pompous ass…
Kim, You mean Herber? Ah the TV show. Got it.
Heber was pulverized by Miscavige after EVERY single show.
He was micromanaged by David Miscavige who hurled insults at him and sent him to CRAMMING. SCN wording for correction,
Heber was not tough enough, Heber did not slam psychiatry enough, Heber was too slow on his feet, Heber was not brutal and not impinging enough …no matter what Heber did he was crushed and slammed with cannon balls.
So much went on behind the scenes of the actual TV show…
I’m sure, but he still came off like a pompous ass..sorry Karen. It was a very weird show. He had these stacks and stacks of papers to prove something, I can’t remember now what it was..probably about the psychs. I’m sure you knew a different Heber.
Actually? I think Scios and ex-scios could possibly have blind spots when it comes to recognizing arrogance, pomposity, hubris, know-best…
call it what you will.
I’ve been peeling my Know Best Onion ever since I came to my senses.
You’re probably correct in your observation, Kim.
(Heber was a wonderful showman, universally loved in the 70’s/80’s, and was a 100 percent Certain Scio. Scientology embeds arrogance by design, every bit one agrees with instills arrogance)
I’m thinking he was a wonderful showman and universally loved within the bubble….but I could be wrong.
Thank you Karen for this comment. Herber was absolutely more popular than DM who always looked like a paramilitary fascist guy. I was sure Dave would have harassed him at any given occasion. The way he used to control others always digging for outpoints.
He destroyed cmo int and wdc at the end of 80s using these ‘tecniques’.
Yes, you got it. He was emphatically more popular than Miscavige.
Yep, in the US a person’s natural rights trumps another person’s wants. At least Heber was given the opp to leave if he wanted to and knows he has people on the outside who would care for him. His decision. Stupid as it is.
The courts disagree with the essence of your point. What you’re missing – IMHO – is “undue influence.” The criminal organisation known as the “church” of $cientology is weaponising this and getting away with it because, well, because “church.” Add to which “elder abuse.”
Jon Atack has more about undue influence in “opening minds: the secret world of manipulation, undue influence and brainwashing”
NOPE. No major court decision disagrees with me about Heber’s de facto situation. Please cite.
Jens, I wish it weren’t true, but on this point Wynski is dead on right. Via his attorney, Heber is saying he’s fine and doesn’t want to be bothered. No evidence exists that he’s being abused or forced to say this. Which is not to say that he ISN’T being abused and/or ISN’T being forced, via his attorney to say this. None of this means that he in truth IS fine. But no evidence exists that he isn’t and he SAYS in writing that he’s fine and there is otherwise no evidence of “undue influence” being exerted on HIM to state this. Knowing what we know, it is unfortunate, I know. But our legal system operates on evidence.
Not only that Aqua, the police interviewed Heber in person and asked if he wanted to leave. He refused even knowing his family was ready to take care of him. So had no worries about being “destitute” not being scamologists he wouldn’t be forced to disconnect. So, 100% on him . He is lucid and had an out with NO worries. So the gov’t doesn’t get to take his rights away.
If you think he had an “out” with “no worries” you are foolish. He, like everyone else, has a LOT of worries about leaving. It has been hammered into his head for decades. Nobody will look after him. He has nowhere to go. The wog world is insane. He will become an enemy and be fair gamed. All his friends will dicsonnect. He will be in treason to LRH and the group. MOst of all, he is giving up his “eternity.”
If you truly believe there is no coercion and that because someone is originally kidnapped makes them susceptible to brainwashing/mental coercion but if they joined willingly they cannot lose their free will, you are not the smart person I thought you were. It is harder to bend the will/mind control/brainwash someone who was kidnapped than it is to do the same to someone who willingly participated. Read any of the numerous books on the subject.
Mike, you’re right, 100% but in Wynski’s defense – not that he needs or wants me to defend him but from the way what he wrote communicates to me – my take on what he wrote was that he was debating purely from a LEGAL viewpoint, purely from the viewpoint of the laws of this land. Ovbviously, and to date from the viewpoint of American law Heber has EXHIBITED (emphasis mine) no evidence of having ever been brainwashed or kidnapped and is therefore under the law considered sane, sentient, being where he wants to be and doing what he wants to do with his spoken wishes concerning the above to be respected and protected.
Now, THAT said, YOUR point is equally and tragically valid, and as I see it, it is being made from the viewpoint of what Alex Gibney aptly termed “The Prison of Belief.” That there is HUGE pressure on Heber NOT to leave the cult given his thorough 50 year indoctrination, that there is ENORMOUS mental coercion to the point where the coercion is so profound and fundamental that he is unable to distinguish himself as an individual from Scientology. His goals, purposes, policies, plans, etc. are all Scientology’s. Heber IS the cult, his beingness is fused with it. “The Prison of Belief”. His own personal high security mental prison. No doubt about it, he’s utterly trapped.
But then, there’s always hope. I do believe that. I’ve seen people close to me change, unexpectedly, remarkably, later in life. Something can happen; a person can change. There is always hope.
No Mike I’m NOT foolish. I meant he would have a place to live and a family to be with. Life is NEVER completely without worry. Heber had a choice. He is lucid. He FUCKED it up. HE is the fool. Not I. He was told by his family he’d could come home. No, HE is the idiot. You covering for his foolishness means YOU are being foolish.
I am not covering for anything. You took exception to a comment about Patty Hearst saying it was not the same because she was kidnapped. She had choices too. You left. I left. Plenty of people have left. But that doesn’t mean those who are still there should be abandoned with the attitude “they could have left too, they had their chance.”
Jens, can you post anything about those major court decisions?
I tend to agree with you on this Wynski, but I also believe that there are exceptions. Elizabeth Smart and Patty Hearst come to mind.
Patty Hearst was originally kidnapped by terrorists who were murdering people and THEN SHE committed felonies so bringing her name into this is incomprehensible as she was a wanted felon. Smart was also originally kidnapped so apples and orangutans. Heber wasn’t kidnapped. He JOINED willingly.
You are correct about the fact these two women were kidnapped. Hearst was kidnapped and became a willing victim and felon as a result of undue influence. Smart was kidnapped and became a willing victim as a result of undue influence. That just makes my point even more. Heber willingly joined the cult (as opposed to being kidnapped into it). I’m going to assume that NO ONE wants to be kidnapped and would escape their captors as soon as they had a chance. But with Hearst and Smart that was not the case. They willingly stayed with their captors despite the violence and abuse they experienced on a daily basis. And they did not make the choice to join their captors in the first place. Heber did make that choice yet he still stays as a result of undue influence.
That said, in Heber’s case, he is still responsible for the choices he makes but there are other factors at work too. I can only relate my own experience while in the cult. I had several opportunities to leave and didn’t do so because of undue influence. I know that feeling and pressure. I wasn’t as enthralled as some people and when certain circumstances arose I was able to extract myself. It was hard to do but I feel like I was one of the lucky ones. It’s easy to get frustrated with those still sipping (or guzzling) the Kool-Aid but I was there once myself and cut them a bit of slack and hope like hell that they too will take advantage of the opportunity to wake up one day no matter who they are or what they have done.
I assume that most 85 year olds have some physical problems .
As a “declared SP” myself, I deplore the CoS’s fair game policy. Still, I don’t think Heber (or Shelley for that matter) should be any cause celebre. Heber was the public face of Scn for decades and had great credibility with Scientologists. He actively participated in whatever evils the CoS generated and backed Miscavige up in all his actions (as did Shelley).
I certainly wish him no harm. I Just think we ought to leave him be.
*41 brothers and sisters! Geez … That can’t make Christmas shopping easy!
Some folks beg to differ, Sir…a few below among the many:
“In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.” — Dr Martin Luther King Jr
“The ultimate tragedy is not the oppression and cruelty by the bad people but the silence over that by the good people.” — Dr Martin Luther King Jr
“To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.” — Ella Wheeler Wilcox
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. The opposite of love is not hate, it’s indifference.” — Elie Wiesel
“Silence becomes cowardice when occasion demands speaking out the whole truth and acting accordingly.” – Mahatma Gandhi
These policies are being applied. Co$ is continually being exposed for its human rights abuses by Leah & Mike. Specifically, insofar as the evidence of abuse of Heber necessary in order to have his situation investigated, THAT evidence is lacking. Unfortunately. Most unfortunately.
V Vendetta … I agree with you completely and with the quotes you posted . Heber was ALWAYS silent about Scientology corruption and abuses both to himself and to others . Moreover he was their CoS front man to staff and public.
Neutrality is never an option.
I wondered about that myself. According to Wikipedia, “Heber Jentzsch was born in 1935 in Salt Lake City and grew up in a Mormon family … He is the son of polygamist Carl Jentzsch and Carl’s third wife Pauline; Heber has 42 siblings.”
I beeped on 41 brothers and sisters too. He is Mormon originally. This makes me think his parents were Polygamists, which was part of the Mormon religion for many years. Some still practice polygamy as a religious tenant. One woman probably didn’t give birth to 41 kids. I think it is multiple wives of one man all giving birth to kids in a polygamist family.
You are correct. Heber talked about the sister wives many times.
O/T. The Federalist has a story about Leah’s response to Karen Bass.
Leah Remini Rips Into Top VP Contender Karen Bass Over Praise Of Scientology. See:
https://thefederalist.com/2020/08/03/leah-remini-rips-into-top-vp-contender-karen-bass-over-praise-of-scientology/
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Fantastic! Take THAT, Karen Bass. Joe Biden et al, are you paying attention? Ms. Bass, you are Vice Presidential Toast. Leah, you be LETHAL, baby. Don’t…Mess…With…Brooklyn!