I don’t recall having mentioned the writings of L. Ron Hubbard concerning the coming apocalypse/destruction of society/end of civilization, and I don’t think many others have either.
But the good folks who churn out the promotion for Kansas City reminded me that this is part of the “scare” tactics Hubbard employed to motivate people to support his cause.
Of course, this is not a new idea.
The program we did on the Jehovah’s Witnesses earlier this year gave me some insight into the grandaddy of doomsday cults. The JW’s are taught that Armageddon is imminent. A literal firestorm that will destroy the earth. They used to put dates on it — way back in the early 1900’s and through at least the 70’s — then they wised up and stopped predicting with dates certain. Though it is testament to the level of thought control that cults have that the dates coming and going without catastrophe did not cause mass exodus from the bubble. There is always an explanation put forth by those with greater wisdom (ie those at the top) which “makes sense” of the failed prediction. “God is revealing more to us and making things clearer,” “our good work has delayed the end times,” “we have been given more time to save more souls” etc etc. Often the prediction passing without incident is cause for greater commitment to the task at hand of saving those who are ignorant of the truth.
It is an amazingly effective tool to convince people to do things they might otherwise not do. What is the point of saving money? Attending college? Enjoying other pursuits in life. Those things do not forestall the end of the world and thus they have no value. The ONLY thing of value is dedicating yourself and your resources to the only cause that can stave off the looming catastrophe.
While lacking the pervasiveness of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Hubbard used this tool too. Quite often.
He predicted, among other things, the demise of Western governments at the hands of communism and the end of the world through a nuclear holocaust. And of course, the only possible way to avoid these dire consequences was for scientology to succeed and for everyone to work harder at making that happen. In the minds of good scientologists, that these dramatic outcomes have not come to pass is not a reflection of Hubbard’s mistaken beliefs, but PROOF that scientology working — the same logic as “our success is measured by how loud the screams are about how bad we are.” The only way to prevent a nuclear holocaust is scientology. There has been no nuclear holocaust. Thus this proves scientology IS working.
Here is the promotional piece that stirred these thoughts:
This was written in 1965. Only about 10 years into the history of scientology. Now it’s been 60+ years and they are still using the same assertions…
And in the intervening period, a dozen “Five Years” have gone by.
But it doesn’t shake the faith of the believers. They are still convinced these words of Hubbard are not only true, they are worth shouting from the rooftops.
And here are a few more quotes from the “works of L. Ron Hubbard” sent out as “promotional pieces” — often by the IAS as reasons you should hand over your cash. It’s not going to do you any good when the world has ended (it won’t do us any good either, but logic isn’t the point):
And another, just in from Kansas City:
And one from Albuquerque today (spelling mistake and all):
And this is how they are pushing the “buttons”:
As I saw in a movie lately, “If Earth is the only inhabited planet, there sure is a lot of wasted space.” —”Contact,IIRC.
Mike, Didn’t you have a post on explaining the failures away? Seems like it would be a fitting bookend to this one.
He CERTAINLY played the “Coming Apocalypse” card regularly. After awhile, I just tuned it out.
For Foolproof, and anyone else interested in Hubbard’s assertions that he ” engaged in scientific research ” in developing dianetics and scientology:
wiseoldgoat.com/papers-scientology/popup-windows/scn_summary_scn_for_scientists_69.html
The simplest way to blow through all of the repetitive ad hominem( mine included ) and arguments about technical minutia and policy interpretations here is to refer to the alleged scientific proof that is the basis of dianetics and scientology. I keep asking Foolproof for it. If anyone has access to it, please present it here, because Hubbard asserts that it exists. Thanks.
Mark, the closest Tubbby got to “research” was pulling a new article out of his ample posterior and saying,”Hey, try THIS and see if anything happens.” Guy wouldn’t know science if it torched his butt.
Damn, Full Marks to STOOLPOOF for dropping consistenly large, stinky loads of Bool-sheet here. Remember your personal hygeine, please, good sir.
Like a broken record, you repeatedly quote Hubbard and assert the workability and correctness of his dreck, but consistently present zero empirical proof of the existence of the states of Clear and Operating Thetan.
Hubbard asserts in his 1969 paper, A Summary On (sic) Scientology For Scientists that
“I have been engaged upon basic research into life and the humanities…the research has been done from the viewpoint of scientific methodology in which I am trained.”
Let’s ignore the big , fat, obvious lie about his ” training ” for the moment and get straight to the point: Hubbard says he did scientific research. Great! Where is it?
Present it. Knock of the knows-best , ad homonem, misdirecting antics and BRING THE EMPIRICAL, SCIENTIFIC PROOF THAT ALLEGEDLY IS THE FOUNDATION OF DIANETICS AND SCIENTOLOGY. Fuck ALL of your egotistical bloviating, just cut to the chase and provide the proof, per Hubbard’s many statements that it exists,of the effectiveness of dianetics and scientology, the proof of the visceral, stable results they promise.
Proof. Bring it.
You consistently ignore or belittle this challenge, because you can’t meet it, and you are sufficiently deluded and dishonest enough to double-down on your assertions of BELIEF, while stubbornly insisting that they are statements of fact.
The honest thing would be to admit that you believe in and love Hubbard and his
” tech”, while freely admitting that it, factually, has ZERO scientific basis. Own your BELIEF; recognize it as such. If you do this, you might find that you no longer have to defend it, explain it, or assert its unassailable rightness and superiority. You would be less of an arrogant asshole,too, in my opinion.
Mark, you need to clear your misunderstood words. 😀
And Hubbard did some excellent research, e.g. here some scouting and sort of cold reading on steroids of the whole track with a mousy, devoted Mary Sue handling the e-meter acting as his “auditor”.
Were the “Targs” he had discovered in 1952 in the “battle of the universes” Hubbard’s early idea of his later confidential BTs in the Xenu story?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CEsS2LaYx0
Pluvo, weren’t the “Targs” one of the species resident on “Barsoom”?
+1
(from a small statured Thark)
I assume you are alluding to independent “scientific research” done by non-Scientologists, of course done by “scientists” with no knowledge of Scientology and with no bias or working for or being paid and funded by vested interests such as pharmaceutical concerns or “mental health” groups? What er, then is your’s or others’ version of the “scientific basis” that you are talking about? Can you explain how this would be achieved (to your satisfaction) and what and how exactly this is done, and who will do it and fund it? Or haven’t you really thought about such details and are just parroting Chief Lab Rat’s and a few others’ usual line in the hope that non-thinking people will swallow it? (which they probably will, notwithstanding the fact that no other mental technology in history is or has been subjected to testing (because they don’t get any results anyway being the real reason), but all that is fine – see below).
Well, after having put those preposterous ideas to rest then, we can then turn to the probably now millions of success stories that people have written over the decades as to how Dianetics and Scientology have helped them, people that don’t get headaches anymore because they ran out engrams, people who can communicate who were shy and withdrawn before, IQs being raised (gasp!) etc. etc. etc. And then followed by the largest body of written and recorded knowledge on the human mind and spirit in history, and which details the refining and honing of the technology over decades. Is there anything comparable to that body of knowledge and if so, why are you not asking for proof of them then? The key word to your seeming puzzle is of course workability!
Thing is, there are 2 types of people reading this Mark, the first is your type and the second are those who think “Ooh! I didn’t actually know that there is a group that is offering a way out!” So you posting your stuff is actually doing people quite a favour – it filters out people who shouldn’t engage in Scientology and arouses the interest of those who should. Thanks for that! Saves us all a lot of time! Keep up the good work!
You, Foolproof-AGAIN- didn’t answer the very simple question of where…is…the …scientific proof of the effectiveness and veracity of the tech THAT HUBBARD ASSERTED HE HAD DONE? READ HUBBARD’S OWN WORDS,THE FULL TEXT IS IN THE OLD GOAT LINK, THEN PRESENT THE PROOF THAT HE ASSERTS HIS ” RESEARCH ” PROVIDES. IT’S SIMPLE. ANSWER THE QUESTION.
Still misdirecting and bullshiting, sir.
HE said he used the scientific method. Google the definition of ” scientific method” .Yeah, THAT METHOD. Fuck your anecdotes and cult rah rah bullshit, simply present the scientific evidence.
You can’t, because it doesn’t exist. Hubbard lied. Cling to your belief, but, please, stop your egotistical, knows-best bloviating about a ” technology ” based in empirical facts. It is not, nor has it have ever been.
FP, the Hubbard Dianetics Research Foundation and later Scientology’s FASE both performed research, that found there was no evidence for Hubbard’s theories – which was then shelved.
If Scientology could produce even one study showing that it worked in some respect, it would have lines of people at its doors that would make its boom of the 1960s look like a mere blip.
The sort of anecdotes you mention, are the type of things that could readily be turned into a proper scientific study – measuring whether health, confidence, IQ, etc. have been improved.
The failure of both the CofS and the independents to produce any such basic studies over half a century, proves either ineptitude or lack of results – which, given the nature of Scientology’s claims about ability, are essentially the same thing. The failure of a supposed “science” to actually produce any scientific work, is one of those things that is damning any way it might be spun.
And actually, Baghwan Rajneesh (Asho) produced more material than Hubbard did, and has more followers, so if those sorts of fallacious measures are your standards, better pack your bags for Puna….
Actually Mike, the earth will not be destroyed. The Bible says the earth will endure forever. Armageddon is God’s war on unrighteous people. Yes, in the past we put dates on the end, a very, very long time ago, because we were a bit too anxious for it to come, and we jumped the gun, but the Bible says concerning that day and hour, no one knows, not even the angels, only God. I am not trying to preach to you, as I know you are atheist, I am just trying to clear up some misunderstandings you have about us. Whether you believe me or not is entirely up to you, but honestly, I don’t know why you wouldn’t believe me on this one, as I have no reason to lie about one of our core beliefs, and it also can be looked up on our website what our belief is about Armageddon.
Belief and faith do not equal fact. You can *choose* to believe something that has no proof behind it, but it doesn’t make it true. Just sayin’.
Also, you can choose not to believe something, but that doesn’t make it not true. Just sayin’.
How do you know there is no proof? Here’s the thing about proof;some people refuse to even believe the proof you show them. Example, there is proof that the earth is round, but some people still say it’s flat despite the proof. We say this is what the Bible says about what’s going on in the world in our day, why we can trust what it says about the future, we give the proof, but people have free will, and choose not to believe it. Just sayin’.
Ilea:
“How do you know there is no proof? ”
Theists have had on the order of 3,000 years to come up with evidence that can be examined by the skeptical. They FAILED. In the last 500 or so years, the scientific method has uncovered MANY truths which can be tested and proven or disproven by independent investigators’ own efforts.
Of course, this is a time to say “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” NOTHING I can say will change your BELIEF, nor you, mine, but if you can point to some evidence that doesn’t require blind belief first, I may change my own mind. Sorry, but fantastic assertions require equally-fantastic evidence. That was a mindset I entered scn with and the evil genius started with fairly pedestrian assertions which sounded pretty truthful when he explained them, then he moved on to slightly less-obvious ones easily explained in light of the first ones’ evident ‘truth’. And so, little-by-little, I was drawn in to accept some of the most OUTRAGEOUS lies he promulgated.
Just what this blog needs–an evangelical troll. Just sayin.’
Haha! You mean Jesuit George and his Lucifer trip? Just sayin’.
Hee-hee…sorry, I’m probably supposed to be offended, but “evangelical troll” is a new one. Never been called that one before. Ha! I think you just unintentionally made my day.
Ilea:
“Hee-hee…sorry, I’m probably supposed to be offended, but “evangelical troll” is a new one. Never been called that one before. Ha! I think you just unintentionally made my day.”
GOOD! It’s nice to be in a discussion where we can disagree without being disagreeable. Part of that is not being so easily offended.
Listing the website would be a good idea.
Oh, sorry. It’s jaw.org.
Sorry again, dumb spellcheck. The website is jw.com.
Maybe its true. Ilea. Who wrote that particular datum that’s in the Bible, by the way? A lot of people contributed writing to the Bible. Also, what Bible? There are many Bibles. .
Just curious, and just pointing out thatt disbelieving a number of the things written in any particular Bible does not make one an atheist, necessarily.
But then, there are those religions which insist that everything in the Bible is true and not only true but to be accepted without question – everything.
So if that’s where you’re at, no problem, I get it.
Your O/Ws. Your hiding something. Where do you hide All your financials! We need your money to stop dooms day! Now FORK IT OVER!!!
Just give us all your money, and max out all your credit cards to give us more money, and mortgage everything you have to give us even more money. You won’t need it, the world is ending Thursday at 2!
30 years later… still no OT IX and X…
Last poster…. Cultural Destructruction with Fabian on 10 August. Oy.
OK, so the apocalypse is imminent. Society is already at the doors of doom and can only be saved by what? The most ethical beings on the planet–that will swindle your for a nickel and backstab you for a dime? As was modeled to them by the pudgy crook?
Or the clerical elite of these groups that preys on the elderly, the very young, and anyone in between?
It’s abundantly clear that for moral inspiration, this toxic sociopathic cult is the LAST place to look!
Indeed. Well said.
Todd:”It’s abundantly clear that for moral inspiration, this toxic sociopathic cult is the LAST place to look!”
Too true!
Well, a lot of that is true. We live a pretty precarious, fragile existence on planet earth here. Lots of doomsday scenarios could take place. And if it’s so important for people to get up the bridge in order to iron things out here, then why make it so difficult to achieve? The plan is not working. The entire product of Scientology is supposed to be based around auditing, and getting people up the bridge, well that’s not happening. Very few make it. It’s been almost 70 years now, IT”S NOT WORKING! There’s no change for the better on this planet because of Scientology. It’s getting worse. And Scientology is now the laughing stock of the people. Comedians love Scientology. And psychiatry? Scientology is nothing but a couple of cur dogs yapping at their heels. Psychiatry is bigger and stronger than ever, and they continue to sell lots and lots of drugs. Yes, we could use some positive change on this planet. And it would be nice if Scientology could contribute to that. But it’s not.
Exactly, well said!
Look, its simple: the cult wants people to go up the Bridge – of course they do!
But more than that, they want money!
“Well, a lot of that is true. We live a pretty precarious, fragile existence on planet earth here. Lots of doomsday scenarios could take place.”
And there’s a TV series for any number of them. zombies seem to be the “in” thing these days, but the scns have been keeping to the old tried-and-true Nuclear Armageddon which has been “done” to death.
I found the “PURGE” to be an interesting romp in an alternate apocalypse. Society operates normally —except for one 12-hour period every year when NO crime is investigated or prosecuted. Murder, rape, and other mayhem in that period are free and clear, never investigated beyond the time of perpetration. For some, it’s a “cleansing” experience, a time to let your inner psychopath out to breath fresh air. For the rest, it’s understandably a time of terror (and hiding in a very secure bunker).
SCIENTOLOGY WILL SAVE THE EARTH!
SCIENTOLOGY WILL RESCUE CIVILIZATION!
L. Ron Hubbard should have a Guinness World Record for Colossal Bloviating Blowhard. Such relentless, profuse, grandiose, narcissistic nonsense. Brainwashing inflicted upon innocents who become increasingly willing adherents.
This rhetoric can become dangerous. I’ve always believed that the cult is just a few steps away from a possible cataclysmic ending- for the sea .org members and maybe some bubble dwellers. Hopefully won’t happen, but a cornered Miscavige, with knowledge he would go down, is a scary prospect. Hopefully he will flee like Hubbard did and not decide to implode the whole thing…..but if he becomes more unhinged, he could turn scary. He has absolute control over the lives of all the sea org. If he truly believes in Hubbard’s teachings (that there is another life and planet waiting with open arms…. ). The one thing I keep at the forefront of my mind is that I don’t think he actually believes in the things he says he does. For those who were wholly dedicated: what would you have done if Hubbard had ordered everyone to leave Earth for Target 2?
Wow! Very scary thought. I have no idea what the answer might be.
I haven’t thought about this for awhile, Kat, but you may have a point. When I was still in, I was well aware of the fates of Jim Jones’ People’s Temple and David Koresh’s Branch Davidians. At the time, I believed that it was a completely unrealistic scenario for the COS. I was confidently certain that if Hubbard or some top exec had promoted the kool-aid option that most Scios would have walked, knowing that someone had gone crazy.
But that was then, and this is now. Most of the smart, sensible Scios (there was once such a thing) eventually got out or were kicked out. Over the years, DM has successfully purged his orgs of anyone with a strong self-determined character–anyone who might challenge his authority. For the most part, all that’s left are the weak-minded, poorly educated, fanatical true believers–genuine kool-aid drinkers, if you will–figuratively speaking perhaps, but maybe not.
Captain Miscavage would take the money , run off while he watches every die hard drink poison.
All things are possible, but the ultimate goal in scientology is to be AT CAUSE OVER EVERYTHING, the whole goddam universe! It’s unlikely they would throw in the towel and would probably fight until they spent every last dollar on legal defense fees. Mr. Hubbard discovered that the ultimate goal is survival!
I’m with you, Richard. They’ll go out with a whimper, not a bang.
Not only will they go out with a whimper, not a bang.
But whoever is able to control all the money when it is time to go, they will go out while hiding. That rat will use some unsuspecting dupe or chump and hide behind them so that when the stink hits the fan, it will all fall onto the chump and the rat will escape with all the money hid in some offshore bank accounts.
In the end, it is most likely that when the rat dies, all the money will wind up in the pockets of some bankers or lawyers and it will take decades or longer for anyone to ever untangle the mess and discover just where the money may have gone.
The thing I always found most interesting is that since it is in no one’s interest to uncover the location of the money, people will just chase around in circles for many, many years while some pig gets to use all the money or gets to hide it in places that are ever-more-difficult to locate.
Where did all the money go that was hidden in Swiss bank accounts during WW2? People will be searching for that money for many years to come. There is a real good chance it will never be uncovered and entire generations of families will enjoy that wealth for years and years to come.
IMO if DM believed it, he would not have changed it. I believe DM believes in himself and in making money. Unless I’m interpreting the facts wrong.
Kat LaRue, I agree that Dwarfenführer would like nothing better than to outdo Jim Jones as “the mass suicide king”. BUT that sort of act requires pre-planning and trial runs —dress rehearsals, if you will. If he’s going to set out the punchbowls of Kool-Aid, I expect we’ll hear of it a bit in advance and be able to send in the Aftermath Foundation volunteers to warn them NOT to drink the Kool-aid;”Come with me if you want to live.”
I’ve read that there was a time around 1970 when Hubbard and Scientology were claiming that the planet had only about 5 years left. That would have tied into a sort of popular apocalypticism among the large anti-establishment and counter-culture movement of the time, that we were “on the eve of destruction” as the song went.
And it was apparently a powerful recruiting and motivational gambit. From accounts, it got a lot of people through the door, and then studying or working as if their lives depended on it, making missions and orgs hubs of activity that are hard to even imagine now in the era of “idle morgues.”
One of the early sociological essays on Scientology (by Bainbridge, I think) posits that they attracted young people who had previously been active in the the anti-war movement, which was winding down and dissipating. I think I’ve also read that the introduction of Scientology “minister” status became a way for some to avoid the draft.
When the apocalypse failed to materialize, and hippies started to turn into yuppies and become interested in other things, Scientology seems to have gone into a period of desperate attempts to compensate and adjust. Hubbard ordered monthly price increases to keep up his cash flow but that disaffected more people, and missions tried new things to keep membership and income up but eventually got in trouble with both the law* and management for what they attempted.
* Several missions were busted for illegal loan schemes, including running their own fraudulent credit unions, that were among the machinations that underlay their apparent success
“We’re the sole agency in existance” who can’t spell the word “existence” let alone save anything but our own Chicken Little stupidity and gullibility.
I read a lot on FLDS, the reason they were given for Armageddon not happening was that they had not been pure enough in their faith aka all their fault (of course after they had taken out loans, maxed credit cards, stopped paying bills, etc. etc.)
Things got much cultier after that.
Lron Tubbard’s mind stopped working around 1953. That is his engram, and one he tries to push onto all of his minions. Thankfully, he and that Coast Guard officer stopped the nuk-lee-ar scientists from stealing all the atom bombs in 1945 and taking over the US government.
That apocoliptic tone also brings in the fringe that thinks stopping nuk-lee-ar war is a good idea. I agree with that, but I ignore Lron’s imaginary flail. There is nothing Lron could ever do to prevent any war. Hell, he couldn’t even stop his franchisees from poaching each others customers.
Boy, I used to gobble this junk up! I went to an IAS event a long time ago with a girl I was dating. When we left, she said “they make the world so dangerous!” Unfortunately I didn’t see it that way at that time. It took me another 18 years before I woke up. This is the junk that is keeping those left in now, still in the trap! Plus the false statistics everyone is told. Plus the false notion that they’re the most ethical group on the planet, plus the idea “the greatest good for the most dynamics, plus…
Not only IS scamology an apocalyptic Cult, its members tend to become apoplectic when confronted with the truth about their cult…
Apoplectic: A new kind of guitar.
You strum it once and it blows up. No slash-metal guitarist should be without one. Someone get the Patent Office on the phone.
It comes with strings attached……you have to PAY to PLAY……
A lot like COS…got pay to go UP that invisible bridge to…..nowhere..
OSD:”Apoplectic: A new kind of guitar.”
Yeah, it sputters and stutters when confronted.
😆😆
We are the only source of good, knowledge of God, salvation and truth.
Our guru is the only one true guru
All other teachers are inverted Eighth Dynamic
Buddha was just keyed out clear
I, L Ron Hubbard, am the only true free being
We are good, you are bad
We are wise, you are evil
We know, you are stupid
So childish, so selfish, so intellectually unevolved.
These false and enslaving ideologies are crumbling.
As I understood it, Hubbard thought there were “Invasion Forces”, interstellar civilizations that took over many star systems in the history of the universe. Some of these were the obvious political empires similar to periods of history on earth, but most worked behind the scenes using “implant stations”.
If an invasion force wants to take over using an implant station, they set them up to capture thetans (spiritual beings) between lives. You die, go to the implant station, get programmed with instructions for your next life, back to planet Earth to live as a programmed zombie for another pointless and enslaved lifetime. Rinse, repeat. Kind of like the “Manchurian Candidate” on steroids.
The “brief breath in eternity” he so floridly espouses is a sort of hiatus between invasion forces. One collapsed, leaving moribund implant stations (maybe underground on Mars?) and the next one hasn’t arrived yet. That is why Captain Bill used to go to the top floor of the Big Blue to look for saucers – when the next wave of saucers arrives they will set up implant stations of their own and put us all back in chains. Got to have the Ron’s Orgs all set up and running before then!
It is all explained in hundreds of lectures, like “The Role of Earth”, but every time he explained it he changed his story. So our forum Fool is free to tell me I’ve got it wrong. You can synthesize practically any belief from Hubbard’s works, they are too incoherent to decode without a degree in Clinical Psychology.
The obvious argument against “Invader Forces” is the simple one. Who benefits (Cui bono?)? Unless these Invader Forces are control freaks who get massive jollies just out of slavery for the sake of slavery, there is no net benefit for what must be a massive sunk cost. No goods and services are being shipped on interstellar freighters. No warriors are being transported off to be cannon fodder for some galactic conquest. We would notice.
Since interstellar travel is probably impossible anyway, I don’t think we really have to worry about Invader Forces. Just another Hubbard excuse to squeeze the last possible drop of devotion, money and labor out of his hapless followers.
Speaking of implants, I give you the following:
Some implanted evening, you may see Miscavige
You may see Miscavige across a crowded room
And somehow you know, you know even then
That he’ll keep on lying again and again
Some implanted evening, someone may be screaming
You may hear them screaming across a crowded room
And night after night, you’ll have the same dream
The sound of their screaming will force you to leave
Once you decode it, you’ll see through the lies
It’s all a con game, Ron’s pie in the sky
Some implanted evening, when you think of blowing
When your conscience calls you, you’ll know just what to do
Then stick to your guns and make truth your own
Or all through your life you will be just a clone
Once you have found truth, never let it go
Once you have found truth, never let it go
Ahh, I can hear the sonorous voice of Ezio Pinsza now. No. 7 in the Billboard charts in 1949. (I occasionally have to remind people that I know more about pop music of the 20th Century than most would consider healthy.)
Hey Scribe,
You may well think I am engaging in false flattery. But I want to assure you that I am being completely sincere when I tell you:
That is one of your very finest works. Maybe even the very best of them all. I’m not certain why. But I really loved that. IMHO, it was truly magnificent.
FYI, my favorite line was:
“Or all through your life you will be just a clone”
Applause! Applause! Applause!
Skyler,
I, too, am a die-hard Scribe fan!
Cheers and warm greetings to you and him👍👌👏😎
Scribe:
“And somehow you know, you know even then
That he’ll keep on lying again and again”
ANY time his mouth moves, you can be sure he’s lying.
Forum Fool here (haha – not bad): You’ve got it wrong. Or rather, how does the story change? Can you be a bit more specific on this? Or is this just another made-up story from you that you think no one will challenge? And perhaps the idea is a bit too unreal for you eh? But then after you having spent 30 years or so on staff and not managing to get much auditing (so I vaguely remember reading) , might explain it eh?
Now as to the reality of it all, as most people here have had no or little auditing, the idea is of course “scary” and is of course, unreal. Or to put it another way, do you think we all arose spontaneously from a sea of ammonia and that planet Earth is the only inhabited planet in the universe? And to “debate” all this with people who have never run a whole track engram, let alone gotten off their current life withholds and never mind whole track ones (eh Brian?), is rather pointless, unless of course you have some point you want to make, or – you are one of them?
And before the usual dudes weigh in with their scoffing remarks, no, I am not sitting here looking at up at the sky waiting for the saucers to land like nutty Captain Bill, but neither am I believing that they don’t exist either. In fact Brain, George and Wynski are indeed the advance guard luring you all into their mind-traps! Really! You couldn’t make it up! I saw them getting out of their saucer!
A lot of questions, FP, but you are right in assuming that I didn’t make it far up the Bridge despite 30 years of involvement. Not even Clear. So if there are super secret upper level implant station details I don’t know them. I’m just going on the lectures and so on.
As to the origin of life, near as I can tell there is still a lot we don’t know. Possibly there is life on other planets. Possibly life on Earth was seeded from another source. Plenty of room for speculation here but no need for “Invader Forces” as an explanation. On Earth there have been many empires and so on, but always to expand trade or exploit the conquered subject nations. How does an implant station on Mars benefit the implanters? Again, cut bono?
Thanks for your actually quite nice and balanced reply Bruce, and I am sorry to have pointed out your lack of auditing, but I did so only because it was pertinent to my point that I was making. (And I am usually mostly very friendly to ex-staff, having been one myself, and anyone who has put their shoulder to the grindstone for 30 years like you did deserves better IMO. And there are lots of top-class auditors in the field now for you to avail yourself of – if you wish that is?)
As to the lectures you are talking about they are only usually intended for people who do have some experience in auditing and have run whole track stuff so they would have at least some reality on these things so of course for those who don’t they would be unreal and thus open to the scoffing one sees here. Do I believe them? Yes, I do. But then I have had a lot of auditing.
As to who benefits from such, one could ask the same question about Stalin and Mao and other dictators her on Earth but then the answer becomes (even more) obvious – after one knows the policies on Suppressive Persons. Trying to understand SPs is rather a fruitless task.
FOOLproof said one intelligent thing(gasp!):”Trying to understand SPs is rather a fruitless task.”
Exactly. So trying to understand MustSavage’s true motivations and goals is similarly a FOOL’s errand, but “Inquiring minds want to know.” and all that.
“Now as to the reality of it all, as most people here have had no or little auditing, the idea is of course “scary” and is of course, unreal. Or to put it another way, do you think we all arose spontaneously from a sea of ammonia…”
Care to explain how you went from auditing to life on Earth? How are the two linked? Chances of you answering with anything that resembles sense -nil. Just the usual garbage, petulance, and invective we all expect.
You might want to have a look at https://www2.gwu.edu/~darwin/BiSc151/Origin/origin.html which makes your comment about “…do you think we all arose spontaneously from a sea of ammonia…” utter crap! Feel free to use your ever popular “taking things literally” if it makes you feel better.
Brian? Which Brian are you talking about, nobody named Brian commented here. Just thought you would like know.
Here’s this weeks saying for, and about FP; “Wise men learn by other men’s mistakes, fools by their own.” I’ll leave it up to you to find out who said it FP.
This is your problem – you are stuck on the time track in Mexico somewhere (watch him try and wrap his wits round that one!) It seems that you cannot think conceptually so you don’t get what I am on about. It is as simple as that. I would suggest you don’t try and question my texts as you continually embarrass yourself with your non-comprehension of such.
As usual, you have no answers and because it annoys you it’s time to troop out the bullshit in the vain hope that your underwhelming intellect will overpower the lesser mortals.
We would have better luck in breaking Captain America’s shield than trying to get through your beliefs in O’Tard and $camology and overwhelming sense of arrogant supremacy.
“We”? It is only you that has trouble understanding the quite straightforward texts that I state above. You shouldn’t try and rope in and tar others with your quite black brush of misunderstanding.
Why not come up with a survey for the people who frequent this site about me, put your much vaunted super-dooper powers of $camology to use while creating the questions, and if the overwhelming majority feel that I’m being too nasty and horrible to you then I’ll back off and attempt to be pleasant towards you.
Loooking forward to your usual childish retort.
Yeah, I’ll get on to it right away! Seriously (well, not really), ask Peacemaker – he loves that sort of thing. Will wrap him up for hours on end composing questions. Any anyway, isn’t such a bit narcissistic of you?
The only thing I am concerned about, well if you can call it that, is your continuous misinterpretation of my comments – you should now have realised that I don’t get my facts, thoughts and texts wrong and leave it at that.
Maybe the implant stations are back up and running – I wonder if that is how FP explains to himself the failure and decline of Scientology. Even the indies can’t really recruit outside of getting already-indoctrinated refugees from the CofS, and no one who was a scientologist from a previous life is showing back up like they are supposed to. I suspect he has some rationalization that he knows sounds so ludicrous, that he dares not state it publicly.
The only answer has got to be something like that psyches have amped it up so that Scientology can no longer get traction with the currently living as it could half a century ago, and have their stations going again so that the the thetans of deceased scientologists are getting their banks reprogrammed and then get put in new meat bodies no better off than unenlightened wogs. That, or Hubbard was simply wrong and Scientology doesn’t work….
Haha – loads of assumptions and generalities and “everybody knows” again. Firstly the Orgs are still there and seem to have quite a few folk in their (live, non-arranged or posed) photos. As for the Indies the auditors I know tell me they are getting new people all the time. This “decline” of Scientology seems to be taking ages, or is it simply that because it is so often repeated here that you start to believe your own agenda’s propaganda? And as I said a few days back, last time I was in my old Org there seemed to be quite a few people there, more in fact than in the 70s when I was there. Now I don’t really know the figures but then my point is neither do you – you are just spouting generalities. At least my remarks are based on observations.
Well Foolproof, if the orgs you visited in were full and you like the church as much as you say, then why don’t you go back there? Since you have never used your real name in posts, maybe the church won’t know who you are and that you posted on an SP site, and you can get in like Flint lickety split. Go. Go on and get back in the fold you love so much. God speed.
FP, I’ve been factually observing the demise of Scientology. A list of orgs and missions c. 1980 is a starting point; most of those locations are long gone, and the big old missions that once existed did not translate into orgs of equal size.
The mission I was first at left no trace that I can find. I lived for decades in one of the metro areas that was an old counter-culture bastion and watched as the missions closed save for one relegated a back room at an old auditor’s place, and the org was moved into a new palace with only a fraction of the activity it once had – that in a region thriving and growing by leaps and bounds.
I also remember the heyday of the independents, when they had IV Magazine and message boards, and then various websites, plus the Ron’s Orgs in Europe were a hive of activity. All that’s left are moribund websites that list only a handful of aging auditors, the Freezone Conference in Vegas doesn’t seem to draw much of anyone anymore, and there’s little more sign of the Ron’s Orgs.
The old time auditors you know may continue to get a dribble of refugees from the CofS, but there’s little or no recruitment of fresh “raw meat” from the real world, and not enough training of auditors to replace attrition. The only new activity I know of is the claimant to be Ron reincarnated, who would take over the Krenwicks’ old indie center.
Anyway, according to Hubbard, Dianetics and Scientology are supposed to thrive and take the world by storm if they work, not muddle along. And past life scientologists should be showing up in droves by now; the whole point is to come back in better shape with case gain retained. How DO you explain the widespread failure, if not blaming it on psyches and implant stations?
You are simply re-phrasing your original proposition, which in summary is more or less nothing but your gut-feel, in the hope that people can’t read (and see that that is simply what you have done). You have thrown in the silly “reincarnated” Hubbard and the Missions network which is something dating back to 1983 to give it some “flesh” and to make things sound ridiculous, but apart from that, you have simply regurgitated your original opinion, which is exactly my point – you don’t really know.
Now, what is even more interesting and very much to the point, is that actually I would prefer it if Mike’s COBber Dave weren’t running the show and we had a less martinet type of management at the helm, so one would think that I would applaud efforts such as yours to show that he isn’t doing a good job, but then I refuse to lie or make things up or twist things just for the sake of an agenda. This is actually why I annoy people here so much, because all of the points are make are true as I have observed them and I don’t need to “remember what I said just in case I lied the first time”!
FP, I’m pointing out that I observed Scientology’s shrinkage and demise, in one of the largest and most thriving metro areas in the US, one noted for its adoption of progressive ideas and practices. The missions (5 or 6 that I can think of right off) that once served quite a few people, particularly in outlying smaller cities, failed and closed except for one once-large one now reduced to essentially being an old auditor’s home-based practice, and the org didn’t pick up their membership, but is itself smaller than at any time since the 1970s, down to about 50 active members, and a total field just over 100 (including a lot of UTRs, like the one I get info from – confirmed by my observations inside the org), in a region with a population of over 5 million.
I have had more direct connections to both the CofS scene and the indies than I can be specific about – which has allowed me to keep tabs on both.
And I’ve also observed the ranks of independents – some of whom I knew personally – dwindle. APIS’ website, for instance, once listed about a dozen auditors in the US, but is now down to 4, and the others list similarly small numbers (amounting to not even 2 dozen total in the US) and are fitfully maintained.
So what’s your observation of the indie scene – how many people in an area of what population, and what would that extrapolate to nationwide? How many active auditors do you know of in the entire country, and are new ones being trained to replace the ones that are passing on?
And, again, how do you explain that Scientology isn’t thriving and growing by leaps and bounds like it once did, and as Hubbard said it should, either inside the CofS or out in the independent scene?
What’s annoying is that you dodge or ignore the real questions.
FP has been drinking the Fool-Aid for so long that $camology, or his version thereof, has become the be-all and end-all of his sad little existence. If it collapses, which it surely will no matter what the Demented Midget and rusted on sheepbots do, what reasons will he have to keep going? So he has to keep convincing himself that $camology is going great guns while wearing blinders and upgrading his rose coloured glasses to ever darkening shades to keep the truth of his “religion” at bay. Maybe it’s time for him to start looking at some other cult to latch onto or start his own.
No doubt the usual revilement and rant will soon flow from his keyboard as he gets worked up into a lather of childish acrimony.
Not at all, we have all the materials – even Hubbard mentioned that. (Not) sorry to spoil your little prediction.
Lewis Carroll would be giving you golf clap from the grave with that nonsense non-answer.
Keep trying and one day, you never know, you might actualy answer a question and not feel the need to lash out because it offends your high opinion of yourself.
I just realised what your answer reminded me of:
“Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We have the capability to make the world’s first bionic man. Steve Austin will be that man. Better than he was before. Better…stronger…faster.”
With a few changes it can become:
“$camologists, we can rebuild the world. We have the technology. We have the capability to make the world free. Tub O’Lard will be that man. Deader than he was before. Deader…deader…deader.”
Have a pleasant day.
Bruce:”As I understood it, Hubbard thought there were “Invasion Forces”, interstellar civilizations that took over many star systems in the history of the universe.”
He couldn’t even think up his OWN science fantasy stories, but had to plagiarize, poorly, others’ fantasies.
INTIMIDATION & SCARE TACTICS……
That is the biggest threat religions use to get you to “cooperate”, including agreeing to donate a certain amount of money weekly/monthly/yearly.
After all…YOU do NOT want to “roast in the fires of HELL & Brimstone DO YOU? YOU need to obey without question the demands of that religion’s “Supreme Leader”…..AT ALL COSTS.
Doesn’t matter if you donate ALL the money you have, doesn’t matter if you are in DEBT for the rest of your natural born life and beyond (after all according to COS…you WILL get a new “meat body”….eventually & you can start FRESH all over again & donate MORE $$$.
You’re elderly, your eyesight, hearing, coordination, bones, & thought process are fading like the sunlight at dusk…..& there you are being “prodded” into signing credit card application after credit card application by “some church member(s)” who it seems is doing this for your OWN good………..
You NEED to MOVE UP THAT BRIDGE to save your immortal soul…..right, right, right???? You are enticed to keeping giving til it hurts….YOU. As long as “they” get what they’re after….$$$$ from YOU, what does it matter to them.
One day your body & mind gives out…you are now FINANCIALLY BROKE & IN DEBT & destitute….the credit card Collection Agencies HOUND YOU DAILY…..you’ve lost your home, your car, your bank & checking account balance is -0- …….You’ve disconnected your entire FAMILY FOR “THEM”………….
NO ONE FROM THE “CHURCH” CALLS OR COMES BY………….”THEY” can’t get any more $$ from you & now you’re elderly & sick & in need………..the realization hits you…..YOU HAVE BEEN TAKEN…….
Hey there BL. That is very sad but very true. You paint a most accu-rat picture of the rats who run this scam. Surely there must be some kind of rat traps we can get that will give these rats just part of what they deserve. …… SNAP! …… Take that you evil pricks! …… And just be aware that is nothing compared to what Karma is gonna give you when your turn comes due.
By the way, somewhat Off Topic here, so I’ll keep it short. I just watched a Bill Hicks performance yesterday. He was making fun of people who did not smoke and who tried to warn him against smoking. He mocked them and talked as if they were breaking some kind of Karmic laws by daring to tell him that smoking was a bad idea. When I saw that, I wondered to myself, “Hey Bill! Why the Hell are you daring Karma to give you cancer? Don’t you realize that when you taunt the gods of Karma, there is a very strong chance they will slap you back with the very thing you with which you have taunted them.
At the time I saw that video, I knew nothing about this standup comedian Bill Hicks. So, I looked him up on Wikipedia and Oh My Gosh! A brief time after he had recorded that performance, he was indeed diagnosed with terminal cancer and shortly after that, he was dead.
I swear to you all that I’m telling the honest truth. I never knew he had died of cancer. But I have to wonder what Karma has in store for the evil Rat who dares to call himself the Pope. I wonder if he may not die by some form of crucifixion? I understand that crucifixion is one of the very most painful ways to go. I wonder if it would look good on The Rat who leads The Scam. I wonder if it should come to pass whether anyone might record it and post it for us? Sometimes, I like to wonder.
So sad Skyler…..AIt reminds me of my in laws former neighbor….the husband Joe Sr. smoked like a chimney 2 to 3 packs a day….his WIFE DIED from 2nd hand smoke because he always smoked inside the house around her. HE LIVED another 15 years & finally died from a heart attack……blaming himself for his wife Betty’s death.
It has been said that Karma is a Bitch…that what goes around comes around…that what you give out….will come back to you….
Not everyone gets their “justice desserts”….some real pricks for some reason manage to escape what should be coming to them.
There are so many people who need to receive their comeuppance but never do….it boggles the mind that we’d like to “beat the tar” out of some people but just never get the chance to give them their “licks”….using a cattle prod on high voltage perhaps……it’s the way things go & there’s nothing we can do about it..
So so so many people here on Mike’s blog & Tony’s blog…who STILL ARE IN, WHO WERE IN, RE NEVER INS OR ARE UTR…..waiting to see SOMETHING come to fruition……..that He gets what’s coming to him.
In the end LRH went out with barely a BANG…..the ONLY thing celebrated is AFTER HIS DEATH…his “birthday”…..scheez…… Like the new “leader of the pack”….lined his pockets with ill gotten gains & had a great time at the expense of OTHERS……
JUSTICE FOR ALL……IT DOESN’T ALWAYS HAPPEN BUT I SURE AS HELL WISH IT DID.
Well, there is one other way to view that.
The extremely evil bastards who do not die young and live an additional (say) 20 years must live all that time with themselves. They have to live with themselves. Surely that must not be very pleasant. See what I mean?
It’s like the shithead who calls himself the Pope. Can you imagine a worse fate for him than having to live with himself for many years? If he dies young, he will escape a fate worse than death.
Sometimes I get to thinking about some people that have wronged me and I imagine what it would be like to beat them to death. But then, I realize that would let them out quick and easy and I would have to live with some very unpleasant fellow (likely named Bubba) and I would have to live with Bubba for many more years. I would much prefer to go out quickly. But that is just my opinion. I suppose everyone else has a different opinion. I might have a different opinion if I had a wife and family. But I don’t.
BalletLady: A bit long, but a good synopsis of what’s left of scientology after Davey-Boy’s carved out the parts he most likes.
Hell 2.0
Hell-on-Teegeeack, you mean?
Fear mongers, whether cultists like Hubtard or politicians like Al (fly my personal jet around ’till I die) Glow Ball Warming, Gore are the same. They seek power and gain from making up apocalyptic crap. They all need to be strung up by their thumbs.
These words of ‘wisdom’ do fit the definition of manipulate:
– control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously.
– alter (data) or present (information) so as to mislead.
Politicians use a similar tactic to influence voters. Corporate media ramps it up to gain viewers/clicks and to boost profit.
In the UK, the constant doom-mongering surrounding Brexit has drifted so far into the absurd that it’s drowning out valid criticism from reasoned moderates. So much so, it’s being dubbed “Project Fear” in many circles.
Dean Baquet and the NYT recently made a hilarious half-arsed “apology” for pushing a McCarthyist Russiagate narrative for the last 3 years. Every cult needs a boogeyman – someone to fight against, someone to blame when things go wrong. What better way to whip up Yankie anxiety than to blame “the Russians.”
Climate Change alarmists use almost identical language to scare the bejesus out of people, especially kids. Wtf does that do to the mind of a child, growing up in a constant state of fear? It’s abuse.
I didn’t realise that a few years after leaving one cult I’d find myself in the midst of another. With the current political climate, the incessant tribalism, the us vs them mentality, blame culture, identity politics, political correctness, et al., it feels as if much of the western world has degraded to a level of cultiness that’s incredibly depressing to witness.
It reminds me why logic and reason is so vital. And why evidence matters.
Mwesten, so true! We escaped the obvious pseudo-science of Hubbard’s “Scientology” (a word that used to mean “fake science”) only to find ourselves in a world consumed by other forms of it.
“What is true is what is true for you” is now being taught as received truth in universities. See “post-modern science”. If it feels bad, believe it. Especially if it makes you feel bad about being human. It’s everywhere.
Anti-vax, anti GMO, choose your poison. Not everyone agrees on which anti-science fad is the true death-knell of the apocalypse. But they are all anti-human and apocalyptic.
HL Mencken said it many decades ago, still true:
Regarding politics, I watch Fox News to get the Trump apologist point of view and MSNBC news to get the Trump Derangement Syndrome point of view.
Regarding global warming industrial society demands electricity. According to Wikipedia in 1960 earth population was 3 billion and today it’s approaching 8 billion. That’s a whole lot more fossil fuel being burned to meet the demand and there aren’t enough solar panels and windmills to make any difference. The Pope and the rest of the be fruitful and multiply crowd need to have a revelation about birth control.
Richard. On TOP of that, the Warming and cooling is a NATURAL climate cycle. The Earth is almost NEVER as cold as it is now. It is only this cold when coming out of a major ice age. Which we are still climbing out of.
See this graph. We are at the dark line at far right. The recent major ICE age is to the immediate left. We are going to 25c avg. with or without mankind on the planet. Just as the MANY times in the past.
https://i.stack.imgur.com/SQZfW.png
What I find scary is this: Our entire global society is pushing the population limits of the environment, and we plan on continued growth, BUT what we live in is NOT a long term stable environment. Things change all the time, but large populations don’t have the flexibility to shift with those changes.
Kyle, you haven’t studied the planet from space at night. We are NO WHERE near overpopulated. Much of the planet IS under tech due to stupidity though. But, as long as idiots don’t step in and interfere with Mr. Darwin it will sort itself out.
For once I actually agree with something Wynski states, apart from the Darwin stuff.
Foolproof, I am curious about something I have never seen asked that I’m interested in your insight or opinion on. Let’s assume LRH’s tech is valid, why did it take 75 trillion (or however many) years and LRH to bring this all to light? Why now? Why him?
Ha! I don’t know myself the answer to your question, and maybe Hubbard didn’t either, although perhaps he did as he hinted at it in the famous phrase oft-repeated here from the KSW policy – “why I came to rise above the bank…” But then for me, such “speculation” is not that important. I am just glad that it occurred, whatever “it” was.
I’d like to focus on one of the statements you made in particular. It is this statement:
“In the UK, the constant doom-mongering surrounding Brexit has drifted so far into the absurd that it’s drowning out valid criticism from reasoned moderates.”
I see a tremendously strong connection between the way that Brexit has been described as well as the way in The Scam we discuss has also been described. Seems to me that so many people on both sides of our struggle often drift off into the absurd. Perhaps that is largely because our emotions run so hot due to all the pain and suffering endured by ourselves and our loved ones. As a consequence, perhaps we are unable to speak in rational terms. I know this very well because it often strongly applies to me.
IMO, it may well be true this is a sign of just how important this issue may be and just why we feel so strongly that we must eradicate this miserable blight from our world and the resulting consequences if we fail to do that.
Does that seem too extreme? Does it even seem kind of crazy? Well …. if it does seem crazy, I would just like to say that is not our fault. After all, we didn’t start with the crazy. That was the doing of Mr. Crazy himself. To my mind, he has always absolutely been the King of Crazy!
Miserable crazy Fucker!
Haha, well quite.
In all seriousness though, there’s nothing wrong with being passionate. There’s also nothing wrong with disagreement. When everyone agrees with everything, that’s when you should run for the hills.
To really understand the human condition you have to be able to see (and be able to comfortably argue) two seemingly contradictory ideas. This is how you get a full picture of reality. In quantum physics this is called “complementarity” (Bohr, Oppenheimer). In philosophy, “thesis-antithesis synthesis” (Fichte, Hegel).
Logic is vital. If you are willing to question your beliefs, evaluate arguments (including your own), if you can spot fallacious reasoning (in both self and others) and make the effort to reliably support your own propositions, you have the best defence possible against groupthink and the cult mentality.
Many people are unable or unwilling to do this. It’s like watching flies bump into one another, buzzing more ferociously each and every turn.
My $0.02.
I want to tell you that I very much enjoyed reading this post. You have a very enjoyable style of writing.
You speak incredibly well to this issue. It seems no longer possible to have a discussion about ANYTHING unless the other participants ALREADY agree with you. I’ve had people SCREAM at me even when I was merely musing on something. The HATRED that spews is simply incredible. I’ve even gotten it from friends I’ve known for years! Appalling. And the media feeds it deliberately.
Yes! So true. Although it is possible…but it can take a whole lot of time and effort. You definitely have to pick your moment.
Tbf, I’d much rather be screamed at than have someone roll their eyes and walk away. A hateful communication is still a communication – if they’re still in front of you they are willing to be engaged (or “handled”, depending on your pov).
Some things I try to consider:
1. Do I have a logically robust proposition?
– What are the likely counter arguments?
– Can I understand/appreciate/argue them?
– What evidence can I refer to if/when needed?
– Can I recognise a logical fallacy?
– Am I willing to be wrong?
2. Acceptance Level.
– What kind of communication are they willing to accept?
– And in what manner?
3. Responsibility.
– If they don’t understand me then it’s my fault, not theirs. See 1 & 2.
4. Listen and ask questions.
– Show interest.
– Be respectful.
– Humility goes a long way.
– Make them think.
5. No expectations.
– You may not win them over.
– At least you’ll understand eachother a little better.
– It’s just one conversation.
– Be willing to have another.
I was watching some old clips of Megan Phelps-Roper (ex member of the Westboro Baptist Church) on YT recently. She’s delightful. She also relates her cult experience to the current political climate. I really recommend them:
TED Talk on becoming disillusioned after a year-long Twitter convo with an “outsider” – https://youtu.be/bVV2Zk88beY
Interview with Joe Rogan (more detailed) – https://youtu.be/hOnefFVBEb0
Excellent post M Western. Thanks.
mweatern:
“Wtf does that do to the mind of a child, growing up in a constant state of fear? It’s abuse.”
We’ve all experienced that level of abuse. For me, it was ‘Polio and the Iron Lung’ or ‘duck and cover’ which didn’t make sense to me as I already knew more atomic science than that by about 3rd grade.
Back in the 1950s and 1960s, these statements had a lot of reality to them in that no one knew how many bombs the Russians had, how good their rockets were, etc. Thus Hubbard had a reality bogeyman which was actually making news every day. And he counted on those fears to pull people in. Oddly, the same potentials have expanded as nation after nation insists on having their own atomic weapons…and plenty of them. The world IS a crazier place than 70 years ago! However, there’s no excuse for scio bilking so many people!
I once did some study of a philosophy in which the author assumed extraterrestrial life. He said that all civilizations in order to advance would need to get through what he called the “Nuclear Threshold”, a point where all civilizations discover thermonuclear energy so blow themselves to oblivion – or not – lol
On the Freewinds in 1988 I spent a lot of auditing time following Hubbard’s instructions to confront the genetic entity, clear out the tampering destruction of DNA by the outer space illuminati and create a genetically pure path of babies for Hubbard’s return as the anti-Christ to avert planetary destruction. It was obviously a waste of time. The point is that Hubbard used this tool to create fear in his followers. Once I did this and audited out every implant, I came to a final conclusion. There are no OT powers. If there were OT powers, Hubbard’s approach was totally wrong. Hubbard’s assumptions about global religion were the product of a man without any education. It is ironic that he mocked the academics even as he failed. The truth of the matter is that the academic people I have met since OT VIII are far smarter than Hubbard ever imagined.
I have been in discussions this summer with my Fundamentalist friend. He totally believes that Heaven will descend from the sky and that it is 5,000 mile wide. When it does descend from the sky, he will walk on the new heaven with his fellow believers. There is no limit to what the human mind can accept.
In every generation, a percentage of the population is Occult oriented. This has not changed since Pythagoras. So we will get the acceptance of strange religious beliefs.
Regarding aliens “tampering” with DNA, I once read a series of paperbacks called The Star People. The author said that aliens had visited earth in ancient times and made genetic modifications in early humans which are now activating in some people. A list of characteristics of Star People was included. A couple I recall are most Star People are night people, they somehow don’t feel they fit in with the rest of society and they look to the cosmos with a sense of longing rather than just wonder. I think I scored seven or eight of the characteristics as positive. The mystical and the Occult can be fun.
Yea, I saw a video with the same message.
Sounds like X-Men!
If what George says above is true, then it seems he didn’t realise that he seemingly was part of an experiment to see how daft people would be in believing outlandish stories. Looks like he passed the test with flying colors! But then he couldn’t remember the auditor who gave him (“George White”) his OTVIII Eligibility Sec Check and has also changed his name from his original name!
And you believe the outlandish story of Xenu, volcanos, Hbombs and DC8 space planes. Does that make you daft?
And you still haven’t answered the simple question of why dying from pneumonia after reading OT III when you are not supposed to is so much saner than dying from spontaneous combustion which you claim is laughable and proves Hubbard didn’t write it as nobody could be that daft?
Well, what happened with your own OTIII Mike? Did you do it as given in the materials – and what then happened? Something did didn’t it? Or, well, perhaps not?
And the exact statement Hubbard made was “The implant is calculated to kill (by pneumonia etc.) anyone who attempts to solve it”, not “read it”. As per usual the assumptions are great on this site.
As to spontaneous combustion can you find 1 case of such in the whole history of this planet? Even Peacemaker is keeping quiet on this one! But as to dying of pneumonia, probably occurs hundreds of times per day on this planet. So one would have to be really, really daft to believe in “spontaneous combustion” eh? Alright now?
So your “logic” is that plenty of people have died from pneumonia but you don’t know if anyone has been killed by spontaneous combustion so therefore the story of OT III about Xenu, non existent volcanos and DC 8 space planes is true but the other just as incredible BS is not…
Makes perfect sense to a faithful follower. What is remarkable is that you cannot admit it is faith but try to claim it is logic. Why? Because Hubbard said scientology is not faith it’s scientific fact….
And you can’t admit this because Hubbard says you can’t.
No, no one has ever been killed by spontaneous combustion – don’t get all flustered and put words in my mouth.
And it seems, when it is examined closely, that this idea being floated around here for god knows how long, that “when one reads OTIII one will die of pneumonia”, is also a complete fallacy. There is a complete difference in Hubbard’s writing to that idea.
And you avoided answering my question on your experiences with your own OTIII.
I had great gains on OTIII.
Maybe nobody has been killed by spontaneous combustion. And nobody has been killed by reading, misrunning, failing to run Incident 1 on OT III either (here is an exact quote from HCOB 2 OCTOBER 1968 “If the volcano bit is run as per III directions but the Inc I is not run on same thetan, R6 begins to run off on automatic, the being can’t sleep for days, the body dies. That’s the way it was designed.”
You always wiggle and squirm and change the subject.
You claimed it was “proof” that Hubbard didn’t write the “False OT VIII” because it talked about spontaneous combustion. I took the time to see what it actually said: “There is some danger, but with OT VII thoroughly complete It is not nearly so great as the danger witnessed by assorted unfortunates who happened to stumble into this area in their sleep or in moments of reverie or anaten, experiencing an hitherto mysterious phenomenon known as “spontaneous combustion”.
Now, you find the former statement to be perfectly reasonable and absolutely true.
You claim the latter statement is proof that the issue was NOT written by Hubbard.
That is an absurd proposition. Neither of these statements is more or less absurd than the other.
That was the ONLY point and the only question I asked you. Are you really claiming that the second statement is proof that Hubbard didnt write the HCOB when you agree that he DID write the first?
Well, I can only state that I personally have experienced that – fucked up a couple of sessions on OTIII and lo and behold couldn’t sleep and the other stuff he talks about. Solved it by doing repair list for III, as he says. Didn’t die though. So, like all things OTIII, unless one has actually experienced what he states, one does not have a reality on it.
So, what about your own OTIII – I’m all ears (favourite engramic phrase of mine!)
Finally a “Foolproof style” admission that yours was an illogical reason to dispute the veracity of the combustion issue…
Some Advil PM would probably have gotten you to sleep. It works for tens of millions of wogs.
I “admitted” nothing – what are you on about?
Of course you did — it’s an admission by failure to respond and avoid answering the question that has been posed to you repeatedly. Clearly, you cannot dispute it so you just keep avoiding it and wander off into “I know of two people who spun” and “pneumonia is real”.
We have all come to know here that it’s the best we will ever get. Hahaha
So now you filter out my last comment and allow Peacemaker to post his stuff. Bit too uncomfortable eh?
Nope, just had to wait until I got home so I could find the references for you
Sorry! (Haha! Or is this me being “modern” and apologising and making out I am being contrite? No, sorry.)
FP, I’m not sure what you’re getting it, but there are plenty of anecdotes and urban legends of spontaneous human combustion just like your anecdotes of something that supposedly happened because of Scientology. Both fail standards of evidence and scientific proof, so what’s the point?
There are some interesting cases of bodies found burned that get explained by the foolish as spontaneous combustion, but as with Scientology healings, they are mis-attributions of cause based on a lack of understand of the science of the rare and even counter-intuitive physical mechanisms at work. If you want to know, they are often traced to fires started by smoking, and people who had a lot of excess body fat – which come to think of it sounds reminiscent of what could have happened to Hubbard in his dotage, if he hadn’t had all the minders around him. Imagine all the miraculous stories that his true believer followers would have told if he had fallen asleep with a cigarette, and being too obese and decrepit to save himself, had gone up in smoke!
In other words, here are you being bombastic again and bombarding people with impressive sounding words that actually state nothing, ironically apart from confirming my original point that spontaneous combustion is a non-fact and then trying to juxtapose your’s and others’ unreality of OTIII with it. Is this a case of Mike’s famous “what aboutism”?
The point is that spontaneous human combustion is a non-fact just like OTIII and the rest of Scientology’s teachings.
Both are cases of anecdotalism, and other fallacious thinking relating to lack of understanding of science.
You have just confirmed again what I stated directly above.
FP, then don’t be surprised that about 8 billion people have “unreality” with the fringe belief of around 10 thousand.
Which gets back to the point you can’t address: even if you want to deny the obbvious, that Scientology is shrinking, it’s certainly tiny and not really growing, when Hubbard said it should thrive and take the world by storm. And even if the CofS is run by suppressives, there’s the independent movement that in this country has the freedom to use the materials and even now the name Scientology (FICOS established that), and that elsewhere is even further from the influence of the CofS.
So why is Scientology moribund everywhere? Do you just stick your head in the sand and deny reality (see Brian’s piece on cognitive dissonance), or blame it on something like a conspiracy that you dare not articulate because you know how unreal it would sound?
“Moribund”? Again this is you simply and continually just blurting out an opinion, whether yours or the few others here. This is the 3rd time you have done so.
FP, this is the 3rd time you haven’t answered – at least. And that’s my observation, not an opinion – I’ve provided specific numbers, while you’ve responded with nothing more than generalities.
I knew a once rather vibrant indie community, and it’s virtually vanished without a trace. I actually sought out one of the well-known old-time auditors a couple of years ago, only to find he’d retired and moved far away.
Anyone can observe the websites and blogs, which are almost all unprofessional, sporadically maintained if at all, and list at most a total of two dozen auditors in the US. Scientolopedia also lists about 2 dozen auditors in the country, mostly old timers.
So what is your observation and experience of the size and growth trajectory of the indie community in the US? Is it really that different from my observations about size and trends, other than that you put a more positive spin on the state of things?
It’s of course said that it’s characteristic of suppressives to generalize, so I assume that you can respond with some specifics. If not, my observations stand that the indie movement has dwindled to no more than a couple of dozen indie auditors, and public in the low hundreds, left in the US.
p.s. For quantitative comparison, someone at the AAC in 1985 talks about having 410 people at the “largest independent event to date”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHN3FuXDPsA
So, FOOLproof tries to make points by ineptly mocking our host, Mike.
Feel better, FOOL? Do you think you ACCOMPLISHED something useful?
http://skepdic.com/shc.html
Not that will make much difference to Doctor Know-It-All because we all know he won’t read it but will pontificate to one and all.
Here’s another article –
https://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5581&context=utk_gradthes
Wondering when you’d show up. And yes, you are right, I didn’t read it. A word of advice – you should not elect me as your latest bete noire – try someone more gullible.
You are so cute when you start getting angry, waving your foam Wolverine claws in the air and hoping that and “tough talk” will put the fear of F into them.
“So, what about your own OTIII – I’m all ears…” You certainly are but they are so blocked up with the concrete of your self delusion and overarching vainglorious belief in yourself it leaves you deaf to, or even attempting to, considering new patterns of thought that you would find uncomfortable (just to be polite). The walls of your ego and beliefs is thin and any chink in said walls is anathema and must fought and plugged up at every turn or you have nothing.
Continue having a pleasant day.
It’s your behaviour, self importance, and arrogance I dislike. Why would I want to stop, you keep proving time after time that you are gullible, you just can’t resist biting back. Otherwise, show some maturity or just keep on being the hobgoblin you are.
Hey DIPSHIT! Aka Foolproof. I don’t remember the name of the person who gave me a sec check to go to Int HQ but I DO remember the contents of the Security rules policy I read when I got to Int a couple days later. So, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU INSANELY BLATHERING ON ABOUT?
Simple Wyn, if one was just about to go to the ship for OTVIII, you know, a once-in-a-lifetime thing, is the sort of thing that one would remember. I remember my auditors who gave me (important) sessions. And obviously you not-ised that session for some reason eh?
THAT is your “reasoning” for saying a person could NOT remember something they read? You are a FUCKING LUNATIC.
“Something they read”? What are you on about – you fucking lunatic? The subject was remembering the auditor they had for a specific session!
Wynski – stick it up your ass! The biggest fucking lunatic here is you you frothing at the mouth nutcase! Aw! Poor diddums – did those nasty Execs in that nasty Church bully you for 25 years and you let them do so? So now you come on here and dramatise and behave like them – you’ve “learned” well.
Clearly you are getting yourself all riled up.
As I say to my 7 year old. Take a chill pill. Walk away for a while so you can cool off and regain your composure. I know there is a lot of button pushing on either side. You are acting like the one who hasnt had a LOT of auditing and don’t have control over your (mis)emotions.
Well, well, well, I was wondering how long it be before you blew a head gasket. Take Mikes advice and walk away and have a break before you pop an artery in your head.
I will also say; if you were more civil to the people that comment here then we might not feel the need to retaliate the way we do. Take it into consideration.
Hah! Now I am the one accused of “blowing a head gasket” yet Wynski’s original blast of entheta is studiously ignored – so Mike and Kronomex, why don’t you direct your remarks to Wynski? Or is he your village idiot or attack dog and should be just left to gnaw on the bone that he is thrown now and again? Seemingly eh? The double standards here are well, not incredible but par for the course! (No, sorry, the village idiot is Kronomex – how stupid of me eh? Sorry Wyn!)
I suppose that what it is, is the assumption that people commenting here are so biased and hang on your every word or simply can’t follow a thread, that you think you can make such statements. Yet all they have to do is go up the page a little and see the truth of it. But perhaps they can’t or won’t do that, for the reasons I state.
And Wyn, how do you feel about that – being the village idiot or attack dog, or both? A bit like those horror films where a family of hillbillies has a monster in a head mask living in the cellar. (Cue Kronomex now stating “but you stated I am the village idiot!”)
And as for people “being civil” to me, is being called “a FUCKING LUNATIC” er, civil? Yes, very civil.
And Mike, taking your use of “(mis)emotion” further – MISEMOTIONAL, 1. such a word would indicate that a person did not display the emotion called for by the actual circumstances of the situation. (SOS, p. 49). Or should I be happy and cheerful about being called a fucking lunatic?
“Now I am the one accused of “blowing a head gasket” yet…” F, please explain how you managed to turn a comment (just in case it slipped your memory, “Well, well, well, I was wondering how long it be before you blew a head gasket.”) into an accusation. Not that I expect anything even vaguely resembling a reasonable reply from you.
“Wynski – stick it up your ass! The biggest fucking lunatic here is you you frothing at the mouth nutcase! Aw! Poor diddums…”
Maybe he should have been a little careful how he worded his comment but did that give you the right to have a meltdown and go on a full blast foul mouth rant? You lost your temper and headed straight to the gutter.
I don’t have to make any statement that you are the village idiot because you keep doing it yourself.
“And as for people “being civil” to me, is being called “a FUCKING LUNATIC” er, civil? Yes, very civil.”
I was going to save the following quote about you until next week but under the circumstances it’s rather appropriate now:
“It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and to forget his own.” Cicero.
Foolproof, you should be thoughtful and calmly try to not be such a lunatic in the future. That would be appropriate IF you were sane. Thus, I see your problem with NOT being misemotional…
Nobody knows when the world might end. So what difference does it make? You could get hit by a car on your way to church tomorrow and die. Well, missed the end of the world, except your end. Just live your life and treat people the way you want to be treated. If a church member, i am a lifelong Catholic, don’t preach to others, they have their own mind. Live each day as your last, as in truth, it may be!
I hope you won’t be offended by my pointing out that when you say, ” don’t preach to others, they have their own mind.”, …… Do you realize you are doing the very exact thing that you are telling people they should not do?
I won’t single you you however because so many people do that very same thing all the time. I am especially guilty myself. Ain’t life a bitch? Seems like we can’t win for the trying.
My understanding of life is best exemplified by one of the aphorisms in the “notebooks of Lazarus Long”: Life is uncertain, Eat desert first.