I have made plenty of jokes about Kaye Champagne over the years as the Chairman of the Flag OT Committee.
Sadly, she passed away yesterday.
This is a rather unusual post — not the snark I usually dish out for those who are the biggest cheerleaders of the clubbed seals. But the loss of any life — a wife, a mother, a friend — is never something to be celebrated or poked fun at. I am truly sad for her family and friends.
But perhaps more than any similar passing of late, it offers insight into the mindset of scientologists and one of the strongest layers of glue that keeps people stuck to their faith in Hubbard and his “technology.”
Death is a universal fear. It affects the rich and poor, the genius and the fool equally. It is the great unknown. Hubbard promised scientologists that he had conquered death with knowledge. Follow his path and you would gain an understanding of your eternal spiritual “beingness” and transcend the endless cycle of birth and death. He claimed to have found a path to provide everyone true immortality in the here and now. It is a powerful carrot — you don’t have to wait to get to heaven, you can make your way to a happy eternity in this life and with it you can eradicate the fear of death. This beats a cure for cancer or anything else in the temporal realm — you can beat everything FOREVER.
With that in mind, read this message from Kaye (of course starting out with a quote from Hubbard):
“An individual is not as alive as his heart beats. He is not as alive as his toes wiggle. No. He is as alive as he can consent to play the role he is playing. If he is then playing that role by his own consent, he’ll be alive to a remarkable degree.” (L Ron Hubbard, lecture Health and Certainty)
To all of my many friends,
Hello, I trust that this message finds you all doing well in your many exciting and vital activities.
I wanted to give you a message, from me.
Some of you may not know this but for the past year while working on many projects I was battling an illness. At this time, it is no longer possible for me to continue my activities at the level I want to, and it is time for me to move on. It will be easier to start anew.
I am sorry that I could not speak to each and every one of you myself in person, but there simply was not time. When you see this message, I will have gone on to a new life.
I want you all to know that my hats have been fully turned over to very competent and stellar people, and all of the things that we have worked on together will not only continue but will flourish and expand. I will return of course, in times ahead, and we will see each other again.
You have all been such an important part of my life, I want to thank you for your friendship, support, humor, bright ideas, and love. I love you too.
I would like to ask you all to take this moment to look at how you can take up just a bit more, as my shoulder will not be at the wheel for a while. See how you can step in and help just a bit more, do just a bit more, contribute your time and energy just a bit more.
You will see me again very soon.
Much Love,
Kaye
This so captures the scientology mindset. Hubbard told me what to think and I am convinced that what he said is true — and I will profess this to all other believers and proclaim my “certainty” in the tech. Perhaps it is valuable to have provided comfort to someone at the end of their life by persuading them they are just moving on to a lovely new body. But as an OT VIII and highly celebrated scientologist who has achieved all that Hubbard sold, has she in fact accomplished this goal?
We will probably never know. But there is evidence that this is NOT the case. Just for starters apparently auditing could not cure her year long illness.
The odds are extremely high that she will NOT be back to join the Flag OT Committee. Even though she expresses “certainty” this will be the case. It flies in the face of 60 years of evidence. 50 years of Sea Org members being granted a 21 year leave of absence, and not a single one of them has ever “come back”… Not even the Commodore himself.
As with most things in scientology, the promise of abilities, powers and enlightenment exceeds what is delivered. But that does not stop people from asserting that they HAVE achieved the glorious state of fully exterior with full perceptions or cause over matter, energy, space and time. Even when it is clear they have not.
It’s sad she has died of some unknown illness that NOTs could not cure. It’s not surprising she sent out such a Hubbard-like message to her faithful followers — though it is absolutely surprising that Hubbard himself failed to do so despite him “causatively discarding his body to continue his advanced OT research,” not even a final goodbye or “I’m turning over to the Broekers, scientology is now in their hands.”
But I am of two minds whether it is sad that she continued to be blind to reality all the way to the end or whether whatever measure of comfort that blind faith may have given her has value and is in some way a blessing.
Either way, Hubbard certainly tapped into one of the fundamental traits of religion — providing hope in the hereafter.
I knew Kaye personally. She was a dedicated person and you cannot fault her for what she believed in. She was conned like the rest of us and she did not have the ability to see the con. She served faithfully and she was a very ethical individual. She was strong and bright but not very good with wog technology.
We all know the rules of the game when we are born and the simple truth is none of us get out alive. Good bye Kaye, I am glad I had the opportunity to get to know.
Yes, someone can be faulted for what they believed in – that was established at the Nuremberg Trials, and the other tribunals judging crimes against humanity.
I appreciate your attempt to be compassionate, and I think it’s important to appreciate the extent to which people in Scientology may be conned and even deluded. However, given her high-level involvement I think it’s likely that she saw lots of “outpoints” – including terrible things being done to people – that she chose to overlook in the name of an end that she rationalized as justifying the means, which is exactly the sort of moral choice that construes culpability. Or was she somehow uniquely in a position where she saw nothing, absolutely nothing?
Thank you, Peacemaker, for saying exactly what I was thinking and for saying it better and a hell of a lot more tactfully than I in my present mood would have said it.
JB, since you knew her well, did she smoke? I knew her as an acquaintance only and I seem to remember her smoking, but can’t swear to it. Did she?
You too are a lost in space victim of your own making. good good by
Sam, to whose comment are you responding with your space victim comment above? I’m just trying to understand.
“…See how you can step in and help just a bit more, do just a bit more, contribute your time and energy just a bit more.” I guess the request to take out another loan or mortgage, or to max-out another credit card, cash in another college education fund, etc., wasn’t part of the request. It must be that just goes without saying. Keep pushing forward, even though not too many of the grand promises have come true. No healing from illness, no return in a new body/life, (at least from what we can tell,) no grand mind-melds and special gifts. Just a life of extremely hard work, disease, and eventual death… like all the rest of us wogs. Seems a bit of a let-down. Well, rest in peace, anyway. It’s been a long road, I’m sure.
I really am sorry to know you feel this way but I feel that somewhere some one let you down if this is true do not feel lost!
The seed of truth is planted in you. In time you will realize this and “we” will meet once again in a different “time” Best luck and my postulate for that to occur!
Okay – I was joking and just having fun mocking up an excuse for Elron’s inconsiderate delay in returning. It might also be an excuse for other errors in the timing of the End of Days, the Second Coming and so on. (being facetious)
Most if not all religions have the draw of offering an escape from mortality. Scientology has its extreme with the billion year sea org contract, a stated timetable for returning and descriptions of between lives occurences in the Astral Plane or something.
Regardless of the number of studies, research or investigations debunking reincarnation, billions of Buddhists, Hindus and others will continue to believe in reincarnation. Likewise believers in Heaven, Paradise or some other concept of an afterlife of bliss.
There’s nothing new about organized religion extracting wealth from believers. Maybe a tithing given to one’s chosen religion might be considered reasonable but Scientology as it currently exists would undoubtedly be dissatisfied with such a trifling amount.
Lol – This is a reply to Kat La Rue way below. I made an error on my email address and when I corrected it and resubmitted it I guess I didn’t note it as a reply.
“You will see me again very soon,”
No rush, Kaye.
Another Still In OT 8 (or was she 7) dying way too young.
Really curious as to what this wasting illness of hers was.
Cancer. perhaps? Did she smoke?
In any event, that’s it for “Cause Over Mest”. Lights out on THAT EP.
Beautifully written letter, though.
Full of potentially harmful hogwash for her soon to be geriatric fellow OTs at Flog, but contextually beautiful and well written.
No doubt the writing of it comforted and sustained her in the end.
I also knew her she was not true to herself she has and still has this “fault” that has to want to be addressed by the Spirit her self! That Mighty being the mighty wonderful being of Ron gave us the tools of his life work but we must be honest in order to use them and get the result Ron promised! If we lie we only cheat our own eternity so reread the ethics book then follow Ron’s directions Ron would really appreciate that you appreciated the work he Ron did for us all. Thank YOU RON always! I do hope I find you again- my best friend!
“If we lie we only cheat our own eternity…” Amen to that, Sam Katz!
Thanks 😊
“But I am of two minds whether it is sad that she continued to be blind to reality all the way to the end or whether whatever measure of comfort that blind faith may have given her has value and is in some way a blessing”
I think that both of these could be true.
You need help but that is an evaluation from me to you
I’d weigh in and say that innocent ignorance of truth is bad enough, and a dangerous way to operate in life, having potentially quite tragic consequences, but willful ignorance of truth, being not ignorance at all but a low toned unwillingness and/or inability to confront, is a guaranteed ticket to physical illness and/or mental illness, and an early mortality THIS lifetime, plus an even more complex mental mess to confront, deal with, sort out and clean up in ensuing lifetimes. Just my opinion, btw. I do believe we live again and again. Fine if you don’t agree 🙂
The elitist tone of this response is adorable.
Yes, I agree; reading over what I wrote, the overall tone does sound elitist – rather smug and superior sounding. I was communicating what I sincerely believe while at the same time feeling somewhat nervous and defensive and questioning myself as to whether I should communicate it – there are, after all, widely diverse viewpoints amongst us here as to past lives, etc. I can only say that I was speaking from the heart while at the same time feeling defensive and somewhat nervous about doing so, which resulted in a stiff and somewhat disparaging tone. This was unintentional. Please know that when I said, “Fine if you don’t agree” with a smiley after it, I meant just that, with no sarcasm.
I’m finding this very sad on many accounts. Her letter is disturbing in that, even in the final days of life, her appeals to others to further the cause will likely hurt many of them in their efforts to fulfill her wishes. It’s a perpetual process and will continue if not interrupted. My condolences to family and friends for their loss.
She certainly knows the truth now.
Well done, Mike.
There is a lot in this living & dying that I simply do not understand. I hope for forgiveness for my massive screw ups. I hope that if there is a life after death that it is gentle. I hope that I can learn to be a kinder, more decent human with the time I have left & to let go of things that I know in my heart I have not, even when I’ve pushed beyond my own frayed edges to get there, failed and failed again.
I hope that when I am gone people will remember my ‘better angel’.
This life, this woman’s life & her death may be the light on the fire that shines for someone else to find their way out of Scientology. That is how I will think of her. With hope for someone else.
Best to All
RIP Kaye
Me too. I hope to become a decent, more kind person. I try my best. On this blog, it’s hard to be sincerely kind to a couple fanatical people when they seek to attack personally, insult and belittle, and try to deflect and insult people with their ad hominem attacks.
But I’m going to try.
What I wrote in the second sentence made me sound like an asshole. I said “decent” when I meant “more decent”. Just wanted to clarify.
I don’t think anyone here thinks you’re an asshole, Katherine. I know I don’t. It’s easy to get caught up in our feelings sometimes. The things that vex me are signals to apply kindness or to simply step back. All the world’s troubles are not mine to solve.
We need one another, all of us. Nobody wants to be unseen or forgotten. And sometimes that manifests in accepting a belief system that isn’t right for us because we *get* seen there even when the trade-off is our own truth being drowned out. I was a lucky one in that the group I was in offended something in me so deeply along the way, that I could let go of *their* journey, *their* beliefs & step into the light that was waiting for me. It has not always been easy, but it was right for me. Sometimes people are so afraid that they stay where they are. When I understand that, I can let something greater than judgment rule my actions. When I don’t understand that, when I get in my own way, that’s when I fail.
To live like today might be my last is a help. To stay curious while being giving is another. After all, the only power I really have is what I give & how I give it.
I hope you know that my reply to you weeks back was what I would have said to anyone & was an expression of my own beliefs. It wasn’t said with any intent to harm. Please do know this.
I wish you much peace.
Thanks. That was very kind of you.
Much peace to you as well.
As stated earlier I met Kay on business she was not true to herself part of that could be she did not read The Ethics Book” which was corrected and re issued by the Church of Scientology this was and is spectacular, this is a must read for your benefit, take it home read it or do it as a mini course $50 bucks to change your life the biggest no brainer in this Universe
Mike,
You are a class act.
‘Kaye Champagne’ is over. I wish the soul that was her the best.
@nomnom,
Perfectly said.
The VALENCE, the artificial personality that was “Kaye Champagne” is over. And good riddance, by the way.
“I wish the soul that was her the very best.” So do I.
O/T but very important.
3/14/19: Scientology IAS dinner featuring Scientology Freedom Medal Winner Nation of Islam Minister Tony Muhammad, who says “the Jews control” drugs, pimping, pedophilia and pornography.
Tweet: https://twitter.com/IndieScieNews/status/1101976697820364800
ESMB post with full information: http://www.forum.exscn.net/threads/scientology-awards-freedom-medal-to-nation-of-islam-min-tony-muhammad-who-promotes-anti-semitic-book.44564/page-14#post-1200974
/
And Scientology sponsers the STAND league supposedly to stop bigotry and religious bias??? What would the Jewish community and rabbis think about this? Someone needs to share this with a real religious tolerance group! Scientologys support of a hate group should be exposed for what it really is- hypocrisy at its most evil.
Is this really the case did you see this yourself? Or is this a lying criminal creating hatefulness does this person work for CNN?
Tony Muhammad is such a f***ing liar and quite ignorant.
To say that Jews solely control “drugs, pimping, pedophilia and pornography” is not only bullshit, but speaks to his ignorance and fear-mongering.
Ugh. Makes me sick.
KatherineINCali,
I’m not sure if you’ve seen the posts after the podcast, but I went to the STAND website and reported Scientology as an agency that practices and promotes religious bigotry (LOL)- just wanted to see what they will do with that. I also made inquiries/reports to news outlets in an effort to get some attention to this ridiculous situation.
I love it. Going to the STAND site and reporting $cientology for bigotry is hilarious!
Wanna bet good ol’ Parkin posts an unhinged tant on Twitter…? ?
Hi KatherineINCali
Yeah, don’t get me started on all of that BS. As soon as I saw that NOI’s Farrakhan and his higher ups had joined Scientology and were being pushed out at many events as sort of a “fellow religion” working hand in hand with Scientology, my exact thought was, “You’ve got to be F’ing kidding me”.
Oh man. To start with, what bad PR for Scientology (I thought at the time, though I had one foot out already).
And, as time has gone on, I have thought, “What, is Misgavige going to try to pass his leadership over to Farrakhan?”. Hey, he asked Jesse Prince if he wanted to take over leading Scientology because he, Miscavige, didn’t want to do it anymore. So why not Farrakhan? They can split the take and Miscavige can be like Lazy Maizie in the book, “Horton Hatches the Egg” and go party in Miami while Farrakhan watches his egg.
Just thoughts. But yeah, what an amazing and alarming co-joining. Nothing good can come of it, especially for the still ins.
indie8million – The NOI is not a wealthy demographic. Unless they’re being given deep discounts most of them are putzing around doing TRs, group processing and book one auditing. A recent post on ESMB showed an NOI being listed as Clear #9. Not much of a threat.
L. Ron Hubbard was so full of shit that not even his own thetan returned to scientology!
He had many, many thetans, who incidentally you’ve just got to feel sorry for the poor suckers. I don’t think Hubbard ever alluded to a proxy is as good as the real him, he was far too an arrogant sauce to go there. But maybe the the Cof$ is full of little Hubbard’s, which, when you think about it – it is!
The problem I have with all that crap about being able to pick your next body and come back with full memory of this lifetime is that people waste their lives. “Oh, I can do that next lifetime.”
I’ve done it. I’ve not done things because “oh, next lifetime.” I’m trying to catch up, but there are a few things that it’s just too late for.
I think it’s how people justify wasting their lives in the sea org. “I can travel/have kids/whatever next time around.”
Who wouldn’t want to be a kid again, knowing what he knows now? When you strip away all the noise, that is the fat, juicy carrot the cult of scientology promises. But no clam has *ever* come back to “attest” to the tale.
Sure Aquamarine ,
Kay only looked at the old green ethics book which was incomplete she was so out of ethics in so many ways that her body fell apart on a cellular level. How come I have met beings that lived before some remembered me and I have run into past associates that now are in terrible condition so just live this crap social bull shit life which will end with you getting more MEST like and less theta. Ron gave you a path to follow so start with the Ethics book Thanks to COB David, the path is there go do something nice for your dynamics your family and all your and their futures! Yes you will be back just like my other past friends in a worsening condition.
Ironic craziness of the day: apparently STAND is now pushing the idea that Jonestown wasn’t a mass suicide but was, instead, a mass murder. I couldn’t even finish reading the article it was so disturbing and full of misinformation. Why would they be pushing this? What’s the agenda? Any answers out there? It was reminiscent of the propaganda put forth by white supremacists who put forth the belief that the holocost was made up- but for the life of me I can’t find an upside for them…
I can’t speak to what STAND is doing, but there are plenty of legitimate sources that indicate there were many people murdered at Jonestown. Not everybody chose to die. The children certainly didn’t. Eyewitness accounts claim that some adults in the pavilion that day protested and were held down by the guards, and that elderly people may have been killed in their sleep. The method there was injection. Unfortunately, due to the climate and the length of time it took to get out there, the physical evidence decayed; there is no official count of how many people may have been injected forcefully rather than drink the poison. Of course, many did make the choice to die
One could make the case that due to the influence Jim Jones had over those people, none of them really made a choice at all. In effect, he basically did murder them. But I doubt STAND is taking a reasonable, sober look at the facts.
There is an excellent book out there called Road to Jonestown that lays this all out in great detail.
Hope that helps
Can,
Leo Rose and his group were definitely massacred, as were people who tried to run. However, the majority of the people chose to die by their own hand. The Stand article is implying that they were all murdered by guerrila warfare and the suicide aspect was a coverup of some sort- that’s what has me puzzled. The majority weren’t autopsied due to the conditions, but they are saying that it looks like an attack of probably 30 people who made their escape in dugout canoes. This is what has me puzzled- I’ve studied Jonestown and there is no evidence that this was a guerilla attack. I’m just wondering at their motivation here.
It wasn’t guerillas, there were a couple of people who survived it, they would’ve spoken up. But yes, forcing people to drink the poison and injecting it into the old and babies certainly wasn’t “suicide”.
Like most conspiracy theories, it breaks down under factual and logical analysis – including, typically, that there are a large number of people who would have to have maintained a seamless conspiracy of silence in all the time that has since passed. Accounts I’ve seen are that nearly 100 members survived, including a number who were present for the terrible events, among them a man tried, convicted, and sent to prison for the murder of Rep. Ryan and the members of his party.
Such conspiracy theories also make the ultimately bizarre assumption that the government or whoever somehow has at their beck and call large numbers of people willing to come from out of the shadows in peacetime and ruthlessly mass murder their fellow human beings, including women and children, and possibly even some of their own relatives and friends, for no particular reason other than following orders – and then maintain absolute silence about it forever after, with none of them ever experiencing remorse and speaking out. While people, and groups, sometimes do terrible things, particularly when caught up in beliefs (including conspiracy theories), it’s a strangely morbid extension of that, that somehow there could be virtual secret armies of terminator-like sociopathic professional killers.
Scientology’s belief about “psychs” – which drives much of what their followers do, including the efforts put into front group activity – falls into that same sort of fantastic category. Given some of the contemporary conspiracy theories that Hubbard alluded to, and the paranoid claims about supposed attempts on his life that he made to the FBI in letters which led them to label him a “mental case,” it’s not surprising, however.
Jonestown was complex. Part of it was that people were sleep deprived, and drilled on carrying out “revolutionary suicide”* until the idea became less unthinkable – just the sort of tactics for breaking people down and getting them to normalize abuses, that Scientology uses. Plus of course they’d been indoctrinated with conspiracy-style fears that outsiders were going to come and do things to them, including the children, that were worse than death – again, part of the high control playbook that we also see at work in Scientology. I haven’t read into it in a while, and can’t remember if there was also an element of their believing that after death, they would go on to something better anyway.
It’s bizarre that Scientology is pushing a conspiracy theory about this particular event, since I don’t understand their stake in the matter – though it could be seen as their starting to face, that they’re reaching their own group’s end times – but ultimately that sort of thinking does fit with their own space-opera conspiracy theories about psychs and Xenu and all. Also, several People’s Temple members at a facility in the country’s capital committed suicide and killed their children on Jones’ order as well, so besides what’s already been cited, there’s ample evidence that whatever exactly happened, was carried out from within the group itself and involved a significant number of people being willing to die themselves, and to kill their fellows as necessary.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown#White_Nights_rehearsals
I knew her for some time, worked with that company in some connection. I say the following as an ex 30 yr scio: we all have something of an end coming, sooner or later. I’m going to live out the rest of my life in no brain washed manner, at least I hope not. Certainly I’m in no dis-illusioned l ron flubberd misguided confused mis-informed stupor. I won’t tell my friends to work harder or give more money or sacrifice more for a fake cause. Like any of us who were “In” thinking we knew something that the rest of humanity didn’t know, and were somehow special and more better and immortal and all that hogwash. What was actually true is that we were duped, and didn’t know it. I can only feel sad for her, who was caught in a trap thinking everyone else but her was actually caught in a trap. Sad. But only feel sorry for the fact that we all contributed in some way to it’s continuation, and she did more than many. Fuck you Lafayette Ronald Hubbard.
I’m such a cynic that my first reaction was “Who actually wrote that farewell?”
Exactly what I was thinking.
There is wisdom and compassion in your analysis, Mike. Thank you for this post.
When recent OT committee minutes no longer had her as the chair, I hoped soon she would be contacting you and we would eat her escape story here. I am saddened to read of her death. She seemed like a well meaning person. I wish she could have made it out. I hope her family is allowed to grieve in private because they will only be allowed to suppress their grief in piblic. RIP Kaye.
Read not eat. Damn autocorrect.
I share your pain!
There is a line from a poem called ‘God Speaks’ by Carol Lynn Pearson that I often think of when I hear of an early, illness or self termination death.
“But sad is the harvest of green wheat.”
For me this quote can apply to anyone, cult member or not, that has passed without experiencing the joy, beauty, love, and peace God wants everyone to fully know while on this earth.
It really does not matter if a “green wheat” death is a child or ancient of days person. Dying with out knowing or experiencing life free from the claws, lies, and brutality of Scientology is especially sad to me.
https://youtu.be/kg3crTYW-Y8
There is a video on YouTube of Kaye Champagne telling people to attend the opening of the Atlanta Ideal Org. I have watched this video many times because I find her over-the-top demeanor comedic: “And THEY have pulled off in their area an Ideal Org in their own city!”
She was a true believer. She went to her death believing in the tech, Xenu, LRH and COB.
There isn’t anybody I know of that can tell any of us an absolute truth about life after death. All discussions of death are metaphysical conjectures that can’t be proven but we can choose to believe them. There are those who sell those ideas for big bucks all the time and that I disagree with. I read a book by a woman named Anita Moorjani who has the medical records to prove her story of weighing only 80 lbs due to cancer, taken to the hospital to die and instead she had an NDE. She has talks on youtube about her experience and she seems honest to me. But that’s HER experience. Not very many people have that experience. Whatever we believe about death I find it sad for her family that she passed so young. I do believe she was honest in her intentions…she did not believe anything we exes talk about regarding abuses etc. She believed only what they said inside the bubble. Death is the big equalizer. We can choose to believe whatever we want about it…only time will tell…LOL Who’s time?
hi, i dont want to sound like a know it all, or arrogant, but Christianity’s whole premise is that Jesus Christ died and three days later he was seen alive, by multiple people and we have eye witness accounts. And because he was raised from death by god, our hope also is that we too will be raised
Well, not “eye witness accounts”, but rather people who claimed to be there. Could be true; could be false. No one knows for sure. That’s what faith is — believing.
I’m not sure whether I believe in God or not, but I have no issue with people who find comfort in Christian teachings. My parents are religious. As long as people don’t judge others for not believing, it’s all good.
Rosemarie, amen sista! I totally tack with you. So beautifully said!
Most generous of you Mike Rinder. You have performed a better eulogy for Kaye Champagne than she will ever receive at the hands of Flag OTC.
It would seem she was cheerful and positive to the end. Likely she held onto Ron’s 8-8008 book idea. That of: With Scientology you will reduce the apparent infinity and importance of the human body to zero; and raise the apparent zero of importance of the spirit to infinity. Eastern philosophies say it can be done.
Hubbard and the ‘tech’ were very sparse regarding anything useful for the ‘between lives’ experiences one might encounter so I looked outside for information. I came across Charles Berner’s short write up of the Tibetan Bardos (the stages a spirit goes through after death and before reanimation). Interestingly Berner was a favorite of Ron’s until he began to think on his own, then he was declared and fair gamed. The Tibetan books are much better at describing what happens.
My personal take is (1) there is little of this life time I would want to have full recall of, (2) no way would I return fresh and young to the evil cult Scientology has become , (3) I would want to move on to even better experiences than I have had so far this life time.
In the vampire movies the vampires sometimes say their immortal consciousness after getting bit is a curse and they often long for death and forgetting. That’s kind of the opposite side of the coin to seeking immortality.
As far as myself continuing as the conscious identity “Richard” forever, I’ll worry about that later. If I worry about it too much I might end up back in Scientology! Yikes!
In my favorite reference book about Buddhism, “Buddhism – A Way of Life and Thought” by Nancy Wilson Ross there is a print of a painting of Kanzen and Jittoku. The caption reads, “Kanzen and Jittoku. Two famed Zen “idiots.” Carefree followers of the simple life. Believers in the benefits of unrestrained laughter at the spectacle of the world’s follies.” Those two dudes had life wired.
The book is available in paperback reprint for ten dollars. It has a full index and glossary and a lot of interesting stories from Buddhist lore.
From the book – [ In humorous Zen anecdotes an event as unavoidable, as organic and above all as commonplace as death might be expected to – and does – find a place for itself. ]
………………………..
There are stories and legends about monks dying while sitting, standing and even one about a monk dying while standing on his head. He remained in that position and was causing a spectacle with the monks uncertain what to do. Finally his younger sister who was a Buddhist nun showed up.
…………………………..
[ Viewing her brother’s corpse standing on its head, she addressed it with unconcealed annoyance: “While you were alive you took no proper notice of laws and customs and even now that you are dead you’re making a thorough nuisance of yourself.” Whereupon she gave the late Ten Yin-feng a sharp prod with her finger; his body fell over with a thud and she ordered it carted off to the burial grounds by his brothers. ]
I shoulda been a Zen Buddhist instead of a Scientologist. At least I didn’t become a Moonie.
I had a friend who routed out (it took a long time to do that) from Int in the 80’s. She shortly thereafter died of cancer at a young age. I went to her “life celebration” service at CCI. I looked around and there was not one SO member there to show respects to her. I asked someone that since she was on staff at the Flag Office in LA before going to Int, why some of her co worker SO members in LA didn’t attend? The answer I got was they all have to get their stats up before Thursday at 2:00, so none came. What a commentary on the unfeeling church work ethic and lack of empathy and respect for human life.
Cindy, FAR from creating “Homo Novis”, hubbard’s processes reduced his followers to a state less exalted than where they’d started, with the target being sub-human, incapable of any human emotional connection or compassion. I STILL have to fight his “teachings”, have to WORK at my inability to want to help those DBs who pulled in such awful events in their lives, who refused to stay IN school and learn the basics of human existence and required minimum skills.
Maybe as a “never in” I have no right to be judgmental or critical. I’ve known about Scientology since the 1960’s when “like minded friends” joined other cults like the Moonies & Hari Krishna or another nut case group The Children Of God. Only through common sense did I avoid the “dangling carrot” of jumping up and down in white robes jingling bells and so forth and so on.
COS has been around since the 1950’s….many decades…but I have YET to hear about, read about, or see even ONE PERSON who claims to have a “new meat body”….to have “lived many lives before”….or to “recall their former name & life inside the realm of COS”.
Is it at all possible that it’s all a FRAUD since there isn’t even ONE PERSON who has stepped forward with ANY kind of EVIDENCE that they are “reborn & living a NEW LIFE”….& NOW THEY WANT TO USE THE MONEY THAT WAS PROMISED TO THEM THAT IS BEING HELD IN A COS ACCOUNT FOR THEM TO CONTINUE TO CROSS THAT DAMNED BRIDGE” once they’ve got a new “meat body”.
Wow, some FIFTY OR MORE YEARS with COS claiming that they are “continuing to grow & expand” that have passed by now & wouldn’t SOMEONE SOMEWHERE have step forward to CLAIM THEIR MONEY THAT IS BEING HELD IN AN ACCOUNT FOR THEIR CONTINUED MOVEMENT TO CROSS THAT BRIDGE?
Believe me, I read the newspapers, watch the news stories on TV & done research yet WT??? NO ONE has been reborn YET? I would think that the “great man” Lron BLUBBARD would be pretty well PISSED OFF that he is still “floating around out there somewhere in space”….& that David Miscavige has taken EVERYTHING & ANYTHING HE CAN FOR HIMSELF?
I ALMOST…… I SAID …ALMOST….Feel sorry for Lron Blubbard…….all those homes sitting there vacant, his Thom McCann slippers MISSING his feet….his cigarettes probably stale by now…..I mean we’ve said it often enough…
WHERE IS SHELLY MISCAVIGE ….BUT ALSO WHERE IS lRON HUBBARD….SHOULDN’T HE BE BACK BY NOW?
BalletLady asked;”Is it at all possible that it’s all a FRAUD since there isn’t even ONE PERSON who has stepped forward with ANY kind of EVIDENCE that they are “reborn & living a NEW LIFE”
Dear lady, I am convinced it ALL was FRAUD, thought up whole cloth by Tubby and promulgated by his enthusiastic followers who ignored the blazingly visible false statements and promises he constantly made. He played on the common hopes and fears of humans, all in an effort to make money, make MORE MONEY.
Like so many things in Scientology, the idea of what happens in the afterlife is confused and contradictory.
Hubbard said many times in many ways that the ultimate goal of a Scientologist would be to overcome the endless cycle of birth and death and become Cause over the physical universe, existing and communicating and exerting influence as a spiritual being without being dependent an a body.
However, another more folksy version of the afterlife, largely promulgated amongst Scientologist by word-of-mouth and particularly by the “OT Phenomena” section of ADVANCE! magazine is that when one dies, one goes off and gets another body, and that if you’re high on the bridge, you can exert some control over which body you get and which “upstat parents” will be yours.
How many times have you read an OT Phenomenon story that went something like this:
“So I ran a locational on the thetan and he came up out of the loss of his body from the accident and into present time. I told him to go to a hospital and pick up another body and he happily thanked me and off he went.”
There was some version of that story, of an OT talking to a disembodied soul in nearly every issue.
This go get another body narrative was by far the most expressed belief of the afterlife for the majority of Scientologists I’ve encountered. Never did I hear a Scientologist say that he or someone who had died was at last free of the endless cycle of birth and death.
It is my opinion that the reason for this is that each Scientologist, even those that had reached the exalted OT levels knew in their heart-of-hearts that they hadn’t gotten even close to the immortality Hubbard said they would achieve. But they DID understand painfully well the experience of living in a body here on earth. THAT was certainly real.
The most common reason given, for why a person of such high case level would even want to get reincarnated and return to Earth, a place commonly described by scientologists as a degraded, worsening, Hell-hole, was that the dead person wanted to come back and help others “get out of the trap,” like some sort of Scientology version bodhisattva. How noble! Who wouldn’t want to be that guy?
Any religion, by definition, has some sort of expressed narrative about an afterlife. They seem to boil down to the basic idea is that Individual Consciousness continues after the individual’s body dies. Heaven, the Kingdom of Allah, Hell, reincarnation etc etc are all familiar ideas of the afterlife vigorously expressed and fiercely defended by the respective believers. And along with the promulgation of these narratives comes some sort of expression of “We-are-right-and-everyone-else-is-wrong.” Such certainty about the most uncertain thing in all of life!
Scientologists are no different in the absolute certainty of the beliefs they hold about the afterlife. And it is a belief folks! Show me the evidence of a guy coming back and finding his buried gold from previous lifetimes! Even Hubbard couldn’t do that but he nevertheless audaciously wrote a book about his failure and called it a win!
All that said, I come down on the side of wishing Kaye Champagne well in her new life or whatever she believes or even whatever the actual truth of the death experience might be. Her beliefs seemed to offer her and her loved ones comfort as she neared the end.
Who knows, maybe whatever we believe will happen to us in the afterlife is what we get? That should make a lot of Evangelicals happy hanging out with white Jesus, and young Muslim men who died too soon happy with their virgins.
There is so much more I could say on this subject but I’ve already gone on too long. Thanks for listening.
John Doe,
Very well said! I have no issue with the belief in an afterlife- and what people chose to believe in….however (and I know I probably shouldn’t even continue), I do have a problem with the exploitation of people trying to do something good. And “buying” your way to eternity will never be ok with me, whether it’s evangelical “preachers” selling miracle water, or the old practice of paying indulgences to get into heaven. Eternity and peace after death (and even before) should NEVER have a price tag.
Amen, Kat!
Thank you for a very interesting post, John Doe. When I read Kay’s writeup, the impression I got was that she didn’t try to fight the illness very hard because she believed she would “start fresh” if she died and picked up another body right away. Kind of a fatalistic view.
I agree. IMO, this attitude of “don’t even bother” when facing an illness with lengthy treatment (read: expensive) began in the Sea Org and has filtered out into the general public Scientologist mindset to a degree.
John Doe, Yes! I agree that, “this attitude of “don’t even bother” when facing an illness with lengthy treatment (read: expensive) began in the Sea Org and has filtered out into the general public Scientologist mindset to a degree.”
And the general public Scn have all learned a disdain for doctors, whom they call “Medicos” with scorn. As if they know more than a medical doctor! It’s sad but definitely that attitude has trickled down to most of the kool aid drinking public. The only person they are harming with this attitude is themselves, and their loved ones.
John Doe, I think you’ve got it right. Tubby knew that confusion and unverifiable “scientific findings” would trap a great number of people into his balderdash, and from them he could extract a GREAT DEAL of MONEY, his only goal. The “power” he also accumulated was incidental. It seemed to amuse him a bit, but he didn’t pursue it as single-mindedly as Dwarfenführer has since ’86, now 34 years ago, or nearly as long as Tubby ruled his little fiefdom. (It’s also more than half of Davey-boy’s lifetime.)
Death is somewhat camouflaged for quite sometime but is just as much concerned with life as survival is. How we individually handle it is a study of the human condition. Scientology’s solutions to that situation is directly reflected by the demeanor and management style of that “religion” and follows Hubbard’s explanation by very much admiring the wealth it generates. You can live by truth or bullshit, or any area in between, but in the end death gets you and you turn into somebodies else’s memory (or not, there are no certainties) . Funerals are for the living to say goodbye. Goodbye Kaye. Per available evidence there is no next time with Scientology technology. Living a lie like Scientology is not unique among religions but some believe in it right up to the point that death takes them. It’s the years of rejected evidence that makes it really sad.
What an extraordinary insight into the mind of a terminally ill Scientologist. You know, as an atheist part of me does envy the certainty that faith brings.
My sincere condolences to all who have fond memories of Kaye.
Andrea compassionately wrote:
“My sincere condolences to all who have fond memories of Kaye.”
Mine, as well, but I can’t really be too charitable to those who, like Kaye, held onto their delusions until the very end. As a recovering scn, my thoughts tend towards:”You made your beds, so are ooze to sleep in them. You had MANY opportunities to wake up and smell the BS.
Oops!:”ooze to sleep in them.” was supposed to be “doomed to sleep in them,
Sad. I assume she was treated with OT 8 magic and touch assists. I wonder if Kaye would still be alive if she had obtained medical care.
I knew Kaye Champagne for about 20 years. She always had some weird vendetta against me because I also sold area rugs. She would set up her tents across the street from me and drive me out of the area, and then smile and say hello when I would see her in person. Once when we were both at the bank drive-in, she in her convertible Mustang, me in my convertible Camaro, when the teller accidentally gave me her envelope with $500. in it. I was so tempted to drive away with it. I have not spoken to her in a few years since I left Cof S, but its so weird that 2 days ago, I thought of her and got this feeling that she was dying. As far as her vendetta against me. Oh well nobody is perfect. Other than that she had a good heart and meant well. It’s too bad she was so blinded by Miscavige and the C of S. Rest in peace Kaye.
Actually I just saw her on Mars trussed up on a Implant Station conveyor belt being prepped for a fresh implant. Hubbard was actually there himself to oversee the process. She is being sent back to Prison Earth to redo some of the lower OT Levels that David MisCavige recently fixed, since there were some apostrophes and semicolons that were added to L Ron’s original works that threw the tech off. Welcome back!
I was on Mars too! All the women have 3 breasts!
Wow- and here I am stuck on earth with only two! That sucks
You have Total Recall!! I’m Jealous!
n i c e reference
OSD, what’s good about 3 breasts. We only have two hands.
I picture that and think:”Oh! the backACHE! poor women.”
You can suck on the one in the middle while feeling up the other two.
I tread lightly and quietly through the misfortunes of those who have lived in their Scn bubble worlds. I wouldn’t want to disturb whoever is in charge of karma. Those of us who were once true believers are complicit to one degree or another in the carnage in which we participated. Part of my life has become a big amends project, making up for damage done, and doing what I can to prevent others from making such a terrible mistake. In the final tally, I seek peace of mind and absolution, two things that my former church could never provide.
You are a very sweet guy Chris. I can’t believe that there are many out there, no matter what their belief system is, that don’t feel the need to make amends for things they have done, hurt they may have caused. (I being one of them)
Anyway, best wishes to you and I sure hope you find the peace of mind you seek. You deserve it.
But, L Ron, you said you never lied or conned us, what’s the deal man?
He lied AND conned us. That was HIS deal. He was the conman. And people believed him.
However, as we all now know, Hubbard was a complete and utter fraud. That’s why he’s camping on Target 2.
OSD-
For some reason, I’ve always just assumed he ended up as one of the walmartians.
Money, he loved it more than life itself!
He craved money & couldn’t get enough.
Apparently he didn’t mind teenage girls in hot pants though.
The teenaged girls in hot pants was aesthetically pleasing,about as far upscale towards “human” as he got. Otherwise, he seemed a cold, uncaring fish. No WONDER he never expounded on love, compassion, and the other emotions which helped raise humans up above the other animals.
A similar scam found in a movie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wjXpTDuHiE
Lol- I haven’t thought of Logan’s Run in forever (I’m dating myself to say I remember that) very appropriate! Thanks for the trip down memory lane
You’re welcome Kat. Good times…
Another brainwashed individual killed by scamology. She could have had a good and meaningful life. Those that have done the “OT levels” and continue to promote this scam are CRIMINALS. Period.
Being an OTVIII with all the tech and admin I have to plead guilty to that one.
But if you put in so much time and money and you really wanted to believe you could fly it is tough to admit later in life that the stuff just does not deliver.
Besides from feeling the total idiot that you are, you now lose all your friends, family, business contacts.
And mentally you have to start as an 18yo when you are like 50 because Hubbard did all the looking for you.
Much better to think that you are PTS and hope for OT IX and X.That will handle it!
Yes Xenu’s son. There is wisdom from way back that talks about making the right decisions is like climbing a steep mountain. While making evil ones is like running down that mountain. It is easier to do bad.
“And mentally you have to start as an 18 year old…”
Wow, I can relate! But I find it rather thrilling in all honesty, not a negative at all.
I find I have this excited interest to read all kinds of things and figure out what it is I actually believe. It’s like having youthful vigor coupled with a good number of decades of experiences with which to contextualize these ideas.
In fact, it seems a bit of an advantage in a weird sort of way. Many my age have been a long time cemented in their beliefs, many cynical and ossified in their thinking.
So if I may offer to you: try to find the joy in being 50-ish and figuring it out like you were an 18 year old.
The infantry isn’t really interested in anyone over 25 (in peace time anyway). Ever wondered why?
“But if you put so much time and money and you really wanted to believe you could fly it is tough to admit later in life that the stuff just does not deliver.”
True, its tough.
Here’s what’s tougher though: living a lie.
When it comes to something important, not only is living a lie, year in and year out, a recipe for personal unhappiness but also mentally and emotionally painful and stressful, and, as such, a very effective way to make yourself seriously sick, and a candidate for early death.
Doggone it! I forgot to include the link. Here it is:
http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?t=18973
I like the post asking if he had several sea org members thrown into his grave- that is something I could have actually believed. He was a lot like those ancient despots who required servants and riches in the afterlife and had them sealed alive in their Toombs- Hubbard would have been that evil if he had thought of it. I’m just glad they cremated him instead.
Kat, there are accounts that seem to have some substantial basis, that Hubbard took to his grave the numbers of foreign bank accounts with many millions of dollars in them – expecting to come back and retrieve the money, which is now of course lost except to some bank somewhere like Luxembourg (where Hubbard seems to have moved all the cash, much of it literally stacks of bills on pallets, after the Swiss started asking too many questions).
Well, that seems right in character for the man. I’m pretty sure he was completely insane at the end. I know he was a money grubbing opportunist in life, so it makes sense!
Well, I know a lot of people on the new age aerea. They all consider being a spirit, not a body. Many believe and experienced past life, actually many more than in scientology. The NDE is a prooven experience.
That David Miscavige is a totalitarian leader, and that he would be belonging more to the nazi party than to scientology is no question.
Let’s be honest for those on this blog who ever practiced scientology. There is a lot of things with Hubbard which really are of importance.
The full rejection of Hubbard is equal to it’s full allegiance. Extremists are insane.
Zealot miscavigian ideal orger are as stupid fuck than complete anti-scientologists.
“Bubble girl” was under the controle of those crooks with their crush regging, but still I wish she will verify that she is an immortal being and will have a futur.
The church of scientology will vanish but the spirituality will expand, it does already…
Wrong. The full rejection of anything associated with L Ron Hubbard can hardly be classified as “extreme”. Rather, it’s a frank and honest recognition of *reality*.
scientology is fake, there is no “tech”, it’s all a lie and a con down to the last period at the end of the last sentence Hubbard ever typed about “scientology” while dribbling ashes off the end of a cigarette tucked in his rubbery lips and rotten, nicotine stained teeth and bedraggled and chemically abused whale carcass of a body.
Mr. Hubbard was a mentally ill drug abuser with a rather wild imagination coupled with a burning desire to manipulate people and take their money. That is all.
Suckers Beware.
Fritz – if you think “The NDE is a prooven experience.” you are in delusion. Get help fast.
If you truly think “There is a lot of things with Hubbard which really are of importance,” especially when considered in light of all he said and did, get more help, even faster. Or find where he plagiarized this stuff “of importance” from, and at least credit the correct source.
“The full rejection of Hubbard is equal to it’s full allegiance” and “Extremists are insane.” are most likely the two most ignorant statements ever made on the entire internet, bar none. You win something, maybe a free post somewhere else.
As for your belief in a present or future life as a spirit, good for you, it’s your right to believe in spirits, ghosts, the easter bunny, and the tooth fairy, who I have actually seen in person in the form of my mother. All that is certainly nothing new. But let me be the first to clue you that the number of people professing such a belief is receding in modern times, not growing, with the possible exception of Islamists who, like too many Scientologists, get their religion forced on them by parents and their parents’ peers .
Oh well, wrong on so much, wrong on one more thing won’t bother your pride, will it?
Nothing personal, just can’t stand anyone coming in here with even faint praise for such a criminal charlatan as Hubbard.
If there were an apple basket with 95% great tasty apples in it and 5% apples laced with cianide and razor blades, I’d tell people to stay away from that basket.
It’s the good parts of Scientology that are like the mouse enjoying the great taste of cheese just before his neck is crushed by the mouse trap.
There is nothing in Scientology, except maybe Hubbard’s delusional space opera, that can’t be found elsewhere.
Cheese without the mouse trap.
Studying the words of a sociopath is bad for mental health.
So true! Love it!
Brian. I love reading your posts. You have such a unique way of writing. I find it truly exhilarating.
“Well, I know a lot of people on the new age aerea. They all consider being a spirit, not a body. Many believe and experienced past life, actually many more than in scientology.”
Argumentum ad populum. That there are also billions of people who claim to converse with a god is not evidence said god exists.
“The NDE is a prooven experience.”
It is a reported experience, sure. But no reliable evidence exists to suggest NDE/OBEs are in any way what new agers claim. The world’s largest (and imho, most exciting) study into this very phenomenon turned out to be a big, dull dud.
S Parnia, K Spearpoint, G de Vos, P Fenwick, et al., Awareness during resuscitation – a prospective study. Resuscitation 07 Oct 2014, 85(12):1799-1805. doi:10.1016/j.resuscitation.2014.09.004
Sorry, but NDEs – supposed “near death experiences” – along with “past lives,” have been shown by modern scientific research, to just be spurious though impressive phenomenon of the brain – in the case of NDEs, a mix of what is essentially dissociative phenomenon when the brain is under stress (as happens to high-performance jet pilots when the brain is drained of blood by high g-forces), influenced by individuals’ personal and cultural expectations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience
I don’t completely doubt that past lives or near death experiences might in some cases be genuine – I’ve actually had some extraordinary “spiritual” experiences myself – but I challenge anyone to show how we could clearly differentiate which or any might be authentic and valid, from among the vast majority that can be proven to be illusory. Certainly, as Mike points out, Scientology, despite all its focus on the subject, has been unable to demonstrate a single case of someone actually coming back.
Regardless, it’s really sad that people can be lead to compromise their personal interests, and even their relationships, in this life, due to belief (often promulgated by organizations with their own, sometimes nefarious, interests) in false, or at best entirely uncertain, concepts regarding the possibility of some sort of future existence.
p.s. My typical reference debunking past lives is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_life_regression#Sources_of_memories
Fritz,
I have to disagree with your statement that there were good things from Hubbard and that total disavowal of his work is basically the equivelent of being an insane extremist. I would ask you to find one ORIGINAL, helpful or logical thing about Hubbard that didn’t forward his own agenda or create passive cult members who were willing to turn over money for the privilege of being brainwashed. I get that he couched things in a “self help” mantle that served to hide his ultimate motive- which was collecting money. All of the “helpful” ideas were metaphorically plagiarized or outright stolen from others. If you wish to call me an extremist, go right ahead, but I am trying to do find a way to help the people who were sucked into a cult. I’m not really interested in arguing Hubbard’s brand of insanity or defending my stance on thinking he was nothing but a deluded madman who created an evil cult to forward his agenda while secretly doing all of the things he espoused and required others not to do. But I will if you want me to. I cannot find a single redeeming thing about his brand of crazy. Please double check where the idea originally came from before crediting Hubbard with it. I’m pretty sure you won’t find a single idea that wasn’t a part of some other school of thought, religion, science, etc. that he perverted for his own purposes then proclaimed it as an original thought.
Fritz, people are different. I don’t consider myself an extremist because I do want to discover and realize any and all influence of LRHs babble. I’ll always hope to have the memories of the lessons learned. And extremist would be like a stagnant pond that never changed and just got worse. Sad state. If not for the 40 years of bliss and torture and since realizing same I’d never have gotten wiser which has always been MY goal. Each to their own.
“There is a lot of things with Hubbard which really are of importance.”
What ARE you babling on about Fritz? Name two.
Looks like Fritz, the brainwashed scamologist took a powder once real questions were asked.
Wynski,
That seems to be SOP with Scientologists. Look at Miscavage- he’s been hiding from questions for decades.
Indeed. As per usual, a $cientologist vanishes (or uses deflection and personal attacks, rather than confront and answer difficult questions.
Cowards.
What happens after death will always remain a mystery. So far as I know, we’ve heard stories of “near death experiences” with the tunnel with the bright light at the end & being met by family members who “might or might not tell us it’s not OUR time to enter Heaven & that we “need to go back” & so we do.
I’ve also heard stories about people passing away & before entering “the hereafter Gates of Heaven” they are present with a FULL account of the life they’ve lived…..all the good & bad.
One thing is for sure, there ARE the infamous “Death & Taxes”… both are required & cannot be escape from. Walt Disney’s body is supposedly stored in Cryogenics….his body stored to hopefully “live another life” someday when he was expecting to return to the living, much like people are storing their infant’s “cord blood”.
Truth is no matter how much $$$$ you have….DEATH is an assured expectation. Seems to me it is how we LIVE LIFE that truly matters. Those on the inside of COS have had no opportunity to truly live a life.
Christianity has yet to produce proof of Heaven although I believe Mr. Hubbard said he once visited there. Stephen Hawking said Heaven is a fairy tale which probably cost him some admirers.
I’m not afraid of death, I just don’t want to be there when it happens. 😉
smokkee911 –
That was pretty funny. Thanks for the laugh.
But don’t worry. “You” won’t be there when it happens.
Hey smokkee911! You can hang out at my place if you want. They’ll never find you there. Plus, I’m really close to the ocean! Give it some thought.
Does it have a concrete bunker and 24/7 security? I’d like to have a spiritual home too you know… room for one more?
The last message she had wasn’t for children, grandchildren, close relatives or family (I’m sure there was someone) – it was to the other members, encouraging them to do more (read sacrifice more). In this context, I am on the fence about how I should feel. One side is the sorrow you feel when someone dies- even when you never personally met them. The other side is a bit mad that this woman would use her own death to forward an agenda. While I get that she was brainwashed by the cult, I would think that in the last part of her life she would recognize that she wasn’t surrounded by family and would instead pen a letter to them.
I also have a question about this whole 21 year leave. If they are sooooo sure that Hubbard is returning to lead them again, then why are they spending millions to preserve his words and lectures for eternity? I mean, if he’s coming back (and if they REALLY believe he is coming back)- why would they need his writings and tapes- you could just hear it from the horses mouth so to speak (pun intended). That has puzzled me since I heard about it. How do you explain to the “public” that they need to preserve this crap when they are selling the idea that he’s coming back? Also, if a parent, child or loved on dies and 22 years have passed, how can they still believe in the words of the cult and LRH- it’s proven conclusively that it isn’t happening….can someone help me understand how this is still working?
There are enough who said that this or that guy is back, or we hold him in place for not running into between life scenes. OTs said such things. There was a family where all childs were past life releases, and they knew that well. Very certain. It is the mechanism saying whatever you want – although no evidence is possible.
It makes some sense that death is a mystery. If you dislike this mystery, it seems that you may have some trouble in an other direction, too. Promising you come back is great, but it is surely difficult to do. It is in any way a question of time and place.
Al-
death isn’t a mystery. The mystery is why people beleive in something that is so obviously false. According to everything I’ve seen, the ins beleive everything Hubbard said or wrote was sacrosanct and should be regarded as the absolute truth. The sea org. People who died are expected to show up for work in 21 years- with all of their training intact and memory clear of their past lessons. How else would they return to their position in the org and continue where they left off? That is the question I have put out there. If this isn’t the working belief, then how are they explaining the rules that say the returned person just needs to show up and give the required information to resume courses they pre-paid for???
If someone claims they are a returned Scientologist, then simple questioning regarding facts of there previous existence should be easily verified- they would know social security numbers, the details of previous classes, the vagarities of the life they discarded etc. there is not a scrap of information that this has EVER happened, and I beleive Scientology would have been trumpeting that from the rooftops as proof of Hubbard’s all-knowing wisdom (sarcasm intended). People beleive this crap and THAT is the mystery.
I SERIOUSLY miss the edit button!! I do all my posts in my phone (I’m rarely sitting in front of a computer) and it’s difficult to scroll to check spelling and see if there was autocorrection or some other grammatical issue that needed to be addressed!! I sincerely apologize for all misspellings, mistakes, goofs or outright idiocy
There may be spacetime variations in the Void which causes some confusion about the allotted 21 earth year leave of absence with some people showing up late. There’s still hope.
Richard,
But if Hubbard knew everything there was to know and is the ultimate expert on it, HOW could there be any room for a “variation”. He was VERY clear on 21 years…so how do Scientologists reconcile the absence of Hubbard? And everyone else??
Kat, no argument with anything you’ve said; just pointing out that belief in past lives, reincarnation, etc. is VERY old, predating by eons what Hubbard wrote, predating Judaism and Christianity. The “one life” belief wherein one is born and then dies and then somehow goes to heaven everlasting or hell everlasting, this is a fairly recent belief in the overall span of humans existing on Earth. Just saying 🙂
I wish Kay Champagne all the best in her future lifetime. I mean, if that sort of thing is real. I would put more faith in good works in this life, to improve ones state in the next life, than a bunch of delusional mental exercises and crush regging.
Mike – you are a class act. A better man than I. I do want to feel empathy and compassion for Scientologist’s that die early deaths. I will be honest. I don’t have any empathy for these people. I actually audited out that ability while in Scientology and being a Scientologist. I feel it for others but not for Scientologists. To me, it is like having empathy for Hitler, Stalin and other evil dictator run mafia organizations where people are manipulated into hurting others and destroying lives and they chose to be robots, ignorant and dumb ed down.
Would some OT please get in comm with Kaye Champagne and tell her she ain’t comin back? Tell her to say hi to Ron and Satan. She lived her life in ignorance and assisted an evil machine to destroy lives.
Does anyone else feel the same? I am curious – be honest. When you hear of a Scientologist dropping the body – are you relieved that one more person is gone from helping that evil cult or do you really feel compassion and empathy?
Mike does.
I don’t.
Anyone?
I do feel empathy for the loved ones’ lost time with her, and their grief, if any. But really, people must be known for how they lived. A life spent accumulating her and other people’s money for DM’s IAS slush fund is not much of a life, though DM might disagree.
Computer Guy,
I was in the cult for decades. When I got out I was able to restore my ability respond emotionally on a real honest level. I am saddened by wasted lives. I also feel as you do that anything that weakens Scientology is a good thing. Kay was a good Scn foot soldier. She did not fight the good fight. She was on the the wrong side of the barbed wire. I knew her. I’m sorry she was not able to get out. Her has some Karma to make up.
Well, I will probably regret posting this. But you asked for honesty and so I will give it to you. Personally, I feel that when it comes to some specific subjects, I am completely heartless and do not feel any sympathy for people. This includes most cults and Nazis and the people who assisted in the Holocaust. I don’t believe one has to be Jewish to feel this way. Any time I hear of a Nazi that has died, I not only feel no sympathy, but I also say “Good!”. Although I only say it to myself.
I recognize that people who are willing to forgive those who have done them harm are indeed more enlightened than those people who cannot forgive. But I cannot forgive quite a few things and I don’t understand why people would ever be bothered to forgive those people who have tortured or killed their relatives with full knowledge of what they were doing. You asked for honesty. In all honesty, my feeling about these people is simply, “To Hell with them and the sooner they reach Hell the better!”
Skyler,
‘To thine own self be true’- don’t apologize for how you truly feel. Whether people agree or disagree, they are your feelings on the subject and you shouldn’t feel bad- you are the only one who can decide what’s in your heart and whether or not to forgive or forget.
Thank you Kat and please allow me to say a belated “Welcome” to you.
Thanks! I’m thouroghly enjoying this blog!
Skyler and BK Mole and others
I appreciate your honesty
I am relieved I am not alone
I have no empathy for the foot soldiers who Keep Scientology Scamming
Zip….Zero….Nada!
Adam Holland committed Suicide
Suicide…the aftermath of Scientology disconnection
I feel exactly the way you do. She harmed many people. She was a criminal and an enabler of criminals. I don’t feel empathy for her at all. And I’m not ashamed to say that. I’m glad she’s gone. Good riddance to “Kaye Champagne”. At the same time, all the best to who she REALLY is – which very likely is NOT the valence she became – hopefully that’s not who she really is – so on that hopeful and optimistic note, all the best to the being she REALLY is for her NEXT lifetime and all her successive lifetimes.
Scientologist can’t cure year long illness.
Hubbard’s shit doesn’t work, does it? Nope, not then, not again, not at all. Shocking.
A person who dies believing the world is flat.. oh well. Maybe she can see it is round, while she’s hanging around an implant station.
Where are all the dead clears and OTs?
Where is the evidence to verify the existence of returning scientologists?
Where are all the cleared body thetans and why aren’t they showing up in their gazillions to continue their auditing?
Is it possible that scientology is ineffective in undoing the effects of implantation – or in preventing further implantation after body death?
Is it possible there are implants so deep, dark and obscure that for all Hubbard “discovered” he barely scratched the surface?
Is it possible that scientology is effective but thetans and BTs choose not to return to scientology? And if so, why?
Or is it possible that it’s all just expensive woo to help people feel less afraid of the inevitable? And that one shouldn’t ask questions in case said woo wears off?
Is it possible they’ll NEVER get 10,000 people on solo NOTS?
I think this post and subject deserve a number of comments, though I will try to keep mine relatively brief.
The idea that one is essentially a spiritual being and continues beyond body death is certainly not an idea that originated with Scientology. Just because most of us who read and respond to this blog feel that the CoS became a totalitarian organization and that LRH eventually morphed into a complete megalomaniac does not mean that LRH himself was wrong about everything he wrote. (I think he nailed numerous subjects)
Personally, and this is just my own gut feeling, I also feel that we are spiritual beings who are not eternally bound to the small “meat bodies” that we currently reside in. Wishful thinking? Maybe in some peoples’ opinions, but again my gut feeling is that not only is this true, but deep down inside people kind of have a knowing about this, which explains a lot (to me at least) why and how human beings have lived their lives (so many who are willing to give up their bodies for either a deeply help belief or on the other hand, in pursuit of some completely idiotic endeavor as most wars have been).
I can think of a number of reasons why a being might NOT want to have a full recall of past lives as he enters into a new body. (a discussion for another time).
Kaye was a dupe in many ways. She lived to be 74, while not tremendously old, not that young either. So she lived the life she apparently wanted to and by all indications, seemed to enjoy it. Yes, of course, her farewell message (if even written by her) was pure Scientology speak, but that does not mean that she hasn’t moved on to a new body and a new game.
Joe, that’s one way to look at it. Another is that we’re instinctually – and genetically* – hard-wired to be willing to sacrifice our lives if necessary for our family and tribal group, which ensures the survival of our genes even if it compromises our personal safety; and we have ended up contextualizing culturally, and religiously, that instinctual sense, as various reassuring or even attractive beliefs about something greater than our current physical existence.
I’d also like to point out that there are long-standing, and arguably somewhat more probable, theories about species memory – which, among other things, might help explain the mystery of how other creatures such as butterflies can navigate to the same places generation after generation – including in the spiritual realm, theories of collective consciousness (or unconscious, as Jung put it). The most long-standing one is the Akashic Records, which holds that we all have access to “a compendium of all human events, thoughts, words, emotions, and intent ever to have occurred” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akashic_records). It at least, for instance, better explains why multiple individuals will come up with past life “memories” of having been significant historic figures such as Cleopatra and Napoleon – a problem well known before Hubbard’s time, though he also ran across it in his cases; but it’s no surprise, given Hubbard’s ego-centrism, that he chose a model of individual reincarnation in which he could claim the personal glory of having been important personages in the past, and lure his followers with the same.
I’d say Hubbard was more like the old saw about the broken clock – right twice a day. He might have done a bit better than that, but mostly because he plagiarized attractive earlier ideas, and took credit for the ideas of his collaborators and co-authors.
* I suspect that’s part of what Hubbard bumped up against with the “GE” or genetic entity – which he dropped before long, because it was an inconvenient contradiction to his theory that the brain was completely programmable, and that any type of “implant” could be “cleared.”
The most important part of OT VIII on the Freewinds in 1988 which I ran into was that Hubbard believed that the Genetic Entity followed a random pattern in its selection of bodies. Even this was not enough to bring about any firm illusions of immortality or the existence of the thetan. I remember on OT III the void of the thought that Hubbard had no OT powers and lacked the ability to teach them, if they existed. I got the same idea on OT VIII. Hubbard had copied a lot of theories and he was making us try them out on ourselves. He was a fraud in the end because he tried all of them on himself and knew they did not work, but took money anyway.
p.s. Average life expectancy for a woman in the US is about 79 years, and for one with access to a better lifestyle and health care, it’s in the mid 80s – so Kaye died about 10 years before she should have. Maybe if she’d lived longer, she’d have ended up reconciling with some of the family and friends that as a scientologist, she has to be disconnected from.
And if she did actually reincarnate, she’d probably have some nasty karma to reckon with – but most likely, she’s gone forever, having wasted her one wild and precious life on a counterfeit dream, and done significant harm to others in the process.
Very nasty karma, I’d say. A real mess. If we are immortal beings who live again and again, who have no beginning and no end, I’d shudder to be her. And by the way I do believe that we are – immortal beings in temporary meat bodies. It makes sense to me. That said, I can’t prove it, so…whatever 🙂 But prove it or not, live again or ending it all with just one life, I still wouldn’t want to die with willful ignorance (non confront) of evil on my conscience.
Joe – On an astronomy show I watched it was said that modern telescopes have now detected 170 Billion Galaxies in the observable universe. Is that explainable by pure science? Could be. What about consciousness? Is that pure evolutionary science? Could be.
I don’t follow Ken Wilber’s philosophy but I like this quote from him I came across in Wikipedia.
[ Wilber: “Are the mystics and sages insane? Because they all tell variations on the same story, don’t they? The story of awakening one morning and discovering you are one with the All, in a timeless and eternal and infinite fashion. Yes, maybe they are crazy, these divine fools. Maybe they are mumbling idiots in the face of the Abyss. Maybe they need a nice, understanding therapist. Yes, I’m sure that would help. But then, I wonder. Maybe the evolutionary sequence really is from matter to body to mind to soul to spirit, each transcending and including, each with a greater depth and greater consciousness and wider embrace. And in the highest reaches of evolution, maybe, just maybe, an individual’s consciousness does indeed touch infinity—a total embrace of the entire Kosmos—a Kosmic consciousness that is Spirit awakened to its own true nature. It’s at least plausible. And tell me: is that story, sung by mystics and sages the world over, any crazier than the scientific materialism story, which is that the entire sequence is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying absolutely nothing? Listen very carefully: just which of those two stories actually sounds totally insane?” ]
That’s a flowery opposing viewpoint to scientific materialism but Wilber thought about such things as do many other people. Some of them would land in Scientology with some people coming out with a basis for comparison and others getting stuck for a lifetime.
I find such vast amounts of space and worlds mind boggling. How beings and civilizations? Makes me feel VERY humble
74? My bad. I thought she was in her late 50s early 60s. Must be an old photo of her we’ve been looking at. Still, nowadays, 74 isn’t that old. I’ve known a number of people working and healthy well into their 90s.
All the abuses aside, and I say this about my own father that disconnected from me after an out of the blue SP Declare was pushed through, at least they did what they believed in. I think a lot of the so called OT Power or being a power terminal in Scientology is really just having a sense of community and being aligned with people who have altruistic goals. Your average Scientologist probably has altruism as a trait, at least I do, the biggest barrier to that is Scientology Management.
I remember feeling alive and connected when things were going right, despite all the horrible shit I’ve seen and done in Scientology. That said, as you point out, Scientology over promises and way under delivers on the whole concept of Clear and OT. These are the eternal carrots of Scientology.
I’ve seen so many OT 8’s and others that were also highly trained kick it and never be heard of again. Even around PAC base, I remember when an FSM-famous OT 8 died of a brain hemorrhage (or stroke) and EVERYONE, OT 8 wife included just KNEW that a particular baby that was born shortly thereafter was the OT 8 in a new body. Well, that little girl is now in her 20’s or maybe just older and no where near Scientology as a subject. So you’re right these 21 year LOA’s and returning of LRH, etc. All BS.
Whatever happens when our bodies die, doesn’t include enough sense to come back and be in Scientology. That carrot of immortality is to a large degree what keeps Scientology going. Who doesn’t want to be cause over dying? Or coming back? Scientology may have some very basic beliefs (on par with other cults or religions), but as for the promised state of OT. That’s never once been adequately demonstrated to exist and all that needs to happen to DA my statement is to have just ONE OT come back with full or even partial recall of events and intimate details of their “previous” life. You’ll never see it, not at least, in Scientology.
Yes, not good news. I used to work with her on and off late ’90s. She was usually smiling, with lots of plans and energy.
We can not blame her blindness to the cult she was so dedicated to expand for many, many years. We also were blind for whatever many years we lasted there.
What matters is that in her mind she was doing something good and helping others, in other words, she did care for others and wanted them to do well.
I wish her well, then.
I hate to throw a wet blanket on this party, but there have been many people from Genghis Kan to Attila to you-know-who who thought they were doing something good and helping their own special group, and thus humanity as a whole, regardless of how many died in the cause.
It really is not the thought that counts, it is the facts that matter.
When we see the suicides from disconnection, the pain, the child abuse, criminal acts, frivolous lawsuits, unwarranted tax exemption, Fair Gaming, unwanted abortions, years spent on the RPF, incessant lying, lost careers, and much much more, one must wonder where she would have fit in with the Gulag administration, or elsewhere in any other totalitarian organization throughout history – a happy, charming, industrious lady who only wanted the best for her group’s beliefs, whether true or not, blind to any problems, blind to any criticism, blind to the truth, blind to the hurts she would have known permeated Scientology if she wasn’t a completely brainwashed puppet serving and raising money for an uncaring master.
Frankly, I won’t give her, or other die-hard ever-ins like her, a pass, though I commend the humanity of those who can.
Her parting letter convicts her much more than anything I could ever say.
Oh, well, I better let this subject go for today, I’ve already lambasted too many for too much. As was said so eloquently in Romeo and Juliet after many needless deaths: All are punish’ed, all are punish’ed.
Agreed on every thing you’ve said. Somebody WANTS to do good, THINKS he or she doing good? Big deal. Irrelevant. Look at the PRODUCTS of this person’s activities. What are the products? That’s how you know whether this person (or you) is doing something worthwhile. Phooey on what anyone THINKS and how anyone FEELS while they’re doing what he or she doing. That’s no way to measure the worth of a person!
I never knew her but wish her the best in the after life. No she will not be back or return as you mentioned. Death is upon all of us. And no one really knows anything really about it.
Nothing really dies. It just transforms. When you think about life, think in terms of Energy, frequency & vibration.
OSD,
Emerald tablet of Hermes………
Yes!
My mom left a note too.
It did not help me feel “ok” about her getting cancer and suffering then ending with death TOO SOON in her life.
She trusted this cult and the leaders too much and I know it cost her her LIFE.
Same with Kaye. She reminds me of my mom way too much.
It is utter BULLSHIT that scientology or dianetics makes things better for a person. It makes it better for the bank accounts and I wonder who is enjoying those full bank accounts?
Sarita,
I’m so sorry for your loss. Losing someone is never easy, and it seems like Scientology makes it even harder unless you absolutely believe in the doctrine.
I lost my husband to what I call a cult, even though he wasn’t a member. He was only 32 and he left me and our son to try to find some way to come to terms with his senseless death.
He went to visit his parents in another state. He was helping fix the roof of an old barn on their property and fell. The fall didn’t kill him. His parents followed the doctrine of Mary Baker Eddy. That’s what killed him. (as Christian scientists, they didn’t beleive in doctors, so they prayed over him as he was dying in their home). They did not inform me that he was dying or injured, but told me three days after the accident that god had decided he was supposed to die. This is one reason that I hate cults so much and want to help if possible.
I don’t want you to think that I don’t understand what cults do to people and the harm and damage they can do.
Again, I’m sorry for your loss
Kat
Oh Kat!!! How truly horrible! This pierced me to my soul if that makes any sense. I can’t imagine. I am so sorry…
Thanks for the support. It was our son who suffered the most- he has just turned 20 and has had to navigate life without his father. I struggled with how to explain to him how his father died and why I don’t speak with his grandparents (I allowed him to visit them once and they tried to keep him- then tried to indoctrinate him into Christian Science). He’s ok now, but it was rough for a very long while.
Wow, Kat, that story of your husband’s fall and death just gobsmacked me. It truly shows how dangerous cults are. Had they got him to a hospital he probably would have lived. I’m glad you are out of all cults and write the truth here. And I”m sorry for your loss.
Cindy,
When I was finally informed, I insisted on an autopsy. He had suffered a skull fracture and would have had an excellent chance of survival if he had been taken to the hospital. He also had a broken leg so I am honestly thankful that the head injury would have rendered him unconscious and would have kept him in a coma for the duration.
Such a sad story! I’m sorry they robbed you of time you could have spent with him. I recognize that they believed they were saving his soul, but they had no right to make that decision for him or for you.
Wow Kat. No belief should bring pain on others. It’s nice to have you here and now see where your insight comes from. Thank you for sharing and giving support.
Kat, I know something about Christian Science. A totally looney and dangerous cult. I’m so sorry for your loss.
Similar experience here. My mom died too young. Didn’t get check-ups. Probably thought she wasn’t PTS. Cancer dx. Went the alternative medicine route first. Died 2 yrs. after dx much too young. Never saw her grandkids grow up. Scientology turned her into someone else – a judgemental person, a mother in whose eyes I couldn’t be upstat enough in the Scio community of Patrons and OT’s. Grieving/not grieving was hard. In the end I realized I grieved for the mother I knew before she became a Scientologist. Sorry to ramble. My mom could have written that note too. Hugs to you.
Annie,
I am so sorry for your loss. It’s heartbreaking what this cult does to families. It just makes me so mad when I hear of a parent or child who is voluntarily giving up precious time with their loved ones because of a cult. It needs to stop! Whatever needs to be done, families need to be reunited so that no more kids have to watch a parent die or hear about it after the fact. Even the kids who are in but don’t speak to a parent, brother, sister, cousin or whomever shouldn’t be forced to spend their days estranged due to some idiotic policy. We’ve got to keep trying whatever we can to stop it!
Again, I am so sorry you lost your mother.
Kat
The Scio friends I’ve had who died from cancer did not seek medical help until it was too late.
They put it off and frequented alternative medicine routes, naturopathic/homeopathic routes…
Until it was too late, and then they died from the disease. I know five off the top of my head…
…
I’d probably be “sad” she stayed in till the end, just on the basis of my “one good thing”. It’s been really difficult for me to deal with finding out how wrong I’ve been, how wasted the life has been, and so on … but the one good thing I cling to in the rough times… “At least I’m out, at least I now KNOW”
Just my thoughts…………
I hope her death shakes “some stable datums”
Wasn’t Kaye “Bubbles” Champagne a CRUSH Registrar for FLAG or Stupid Powerz fund raising?
It is very sad the people that die of cancer and other illnesses because they are connected to a very suppressive organization. RIP Kaye “Bubbles” Champagne. I have to say, however, that the legend you left for many is you did bankrupt a lot of victims of the cult with you crush regging techniques. I wonder if it grated on the Analytical and Rational Mind suppressed by Scientology Tech and you took yourself out? I don’t mean to be cruel but she did a lot of damage to people with the crush regging.
Kaye will soon realize if she has reverted to the Awareness of Awareness Unit that “We Don’t Come Back”. No one has ever come back after 65 years of promising “We Come Back”. Do any Scientologists realize this or is it wishful thinking and a thought stopping technique so as to ward off any HE&R?
Was Bubbles in the Sea Org?
If she was selling rugs and heading the OT committee, I think not at those times because SO don’t do those chores.
I am impressed by your compassionate eulogy to this woman. As someone born into this cult that stamps out all human emotions, you have clearly shed that mindset and exemplify all that Scientology can’t stand – humanity and respect for everyone regardless of beliefs. Their attack sites show desperation and anyone paying attention to you now can see no evidence of how you may have been while in the brainwashed state in the cult. I have to wonder if her life would have been longer if she had been able to see past the Hubbard BS and had proper medical care. I know I am making an assumption on this but her letter would support that she chose to address her illness using the Scientology Hubbard quack-science versus proven science. Sad. I am a never in who has been interested in cults and their effects since grade school. I read this and Tony O’s blog daily am a huge fan of your show, you and all the people standing up against this criminal enterprise! You are turning the public opinion against this nasty cult.
“…I am of two minds whether it is sad that she continued to be blind to reality all the way to the end or whether whatever measure of comfort that blind faith may have given her has value and is in some way a blessing.” Ditto. At the same time I’m furious with people that can make a difference to help stop the madness, and the pain and suffering that is dished out by the church of scientology because they have turned a blind eye.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” I have no doubt that Kay was a “good” person.
I have never seen any explanation as to what this cult believes should be done with the body of any member when they die.
I tried to search today’s post to see if it might be explained anywhere there. But I could not find any answer.
I have tried to Google “what do scientologists believe should be done with a dead body?”
But I have not been able to find a reply. I wonder about this because they claim the human body is just a meaningless shell that is to be discarded when someone dies so that they may return in a different body. So, I would expect that when someone dies, they would not care very much about what happens to their body. I would certainly like to know what happened to the dead body of LRH. Does anyone know?
?
Skyler – when they are suicides – I have personally witnessed in Scientology – the death hidden from view and death certificates can even be manipulated. Typically a “whispering campaign” ensues about how they looked at the internet and saw confidential information which is why they offed themselves. Or they are out ethics degraded beings that will come back and go clear etc.
When they are early deaths from cancer and other diseases, the deaths typically are not announced or talked about. If they have cancer and get auditing and chemo – Scientology will dish out propaganda on how Auditing Saved their lives. Then when they die – they are discarded without sorrow except the family and friends may do a small service.
Death in Scientology is “Not Ised” and Scientolgists believe they live forever and have had many lives.
Death pokes a bubble in the prison of belief so it is best not to communicate about it. It forces one to LOOK and then to KNOW and that is a HIGH CRIME in the cult of Scientology.
It’d be easy to lie and say I have compassion for her and that I’m sorry she’s dead. But I don’t have compassion for her and I’m not sorry she’s dead. I didn’t wish her to die but in that it has occurred, the only feeling I have about her death is a kind of relief that she won’t be perpetrating any more crimes. What I AM sorry for is that the person she really is, her true beingness, became somehow obliterated, or masked, or tamped way down, something like that, its hard to explain – and in place of her true beingness emerged this – THING. For that, for the obliteration or suppression of her own true beingness, however it may have happened, I’m sorry; for that I can honestly grieve. But for the thing that she became, that died? Nah. Good riddance.
Oh well. Learn something new every day. According to this web site, his body was cremated and dumped into the Pacific Ocean. I would have dumped it into my toilet. But, “To each his own”, I suppose.
I’d love to be buried in a soft pine coffin in a natural, unembalmed state, or just set on a platform on a high plateau, my body left for the beatles and worms. That in itself is a sort of immortality, my body turned into food, then energy for another life, even if only a beatle, and the bird who eats the beatle, and the hawk who eats the bird, and the buzzards who eat the hawk when it dies, and the beatles and worms who eat the remains the buzzards leave behind… plus the cows who graze on the grass the nutrients left behind help grow, steers who show up on people’s lunch counter as hamburger… energy is conserved, as a physicist might say.
But it is difficult to have a plain burial anymore. Too many laws. I think there is a pine box burial association, but I’m not sure if even they allow unembalmed burial.
Oh, well, cremation it is, not very energy efficient, though, and requires lots of fossil fuel. I don’t want to be one of those bodies in an abandoned cemetery that some future developer digs up to put in a new shopping mall a couple of hundred years from now, assuming humanity is not extinct by then.
Like I always, say, have a happy day.
Yes I believe you can still have a simple pine box with an in embalmed body.
I think that is part of the orthodox Jewish tradition. Maybe someone can correct me if I’m wrong about that.
It depends on where you live, but yes, those options are out there. I agree about not wanting to be in a cemetery.
Here is a website (I will post the link right here so I don’t forget like ususal):
https://www.shiva.com/learning-center/death-and-mourning/jewish-funerals-and-burial/
It explains that in the Jewish religion, when someone dies, they are almost always buried within 24 hours and the body is washed but not embalmed.
@ammo, have you considered a body farm? I was all about cremation for lots of years but if you donate your body to a body farm, you help forensic research and you are allowed to decompose naturally.
Valerie,
That’s where my carcass will be going after they scavenge whatever usable parts are left. I want to help someone else live a little longer. Then, I would love to think that they could bring someone to justice with whatever scientific insights they get from studying how a body decomposes. Not a pleasant thought, but better than being buried and having no further use.
OMG! I never even heard of a body farm before. Thank you ever so much, Valerie. That sounds like a great idea to me.
Another alternative: now you can literally be the family jewels after you die!
https://www.eterneva.com/