John Redwood posted this on Facebook.
I think it deserves WIDE reading. It is the same position scientology takes, and they too appealed the decision to turn over the incriminating preclear folders of Laura Dieckman in her civil case to the USSC. Thankfully, they did NOT win. It is my sincere hope that Watchtower is unsuccessful in this effort to overturn a decision against them.
John said the following (I added a link to the petition):
Jehovah’s Witnesses are appealing to the Supreme Court of the United States, but this time it has nothing to do with preaching or saluting the flag. [The petition to the USSC can be found here.]
It’s all about child abuse.
Specifically, the protection (or cover-up) of information, documents, and testimony of persons involved in cases of child abuse.
I will be covering this story in the coming weeks and months, but I thought I would share some of this news and try to distill it down as simply as I can.
I’d like to point out first that Watchower has appealed to the Supreme Court in connection with their loss of yet another California child abuse case. The chance that Watchtower’s appeal will be heard by the Supreme Court is slim, but anything is possible.
What brought this about?
There are many ongoing civil child abuse cases in California. One such case is J.W. versus Watchtower. J.W. happens to be the initials for the victim of former JW elder Gilbert Simental, who went on a spree of molestation which touched the lives of numerous victims.
As with other cases, the plaintiff demanded that Watchtower turn over to the court a database of child abuse cases known to be maintained by Watchtower of New York.
In this particular case, because Watchtower failed to turn over the documents in a timely manner, attorneys asked for a default judgment of just over 4 million dollars.
The court agreed with the plaintiff and entered a default judgment in that amount. Watchtower was required to post a bond of more than 6 million dollars while their appeal was pending.
Watchtower lost their appeal, and the decision of the court was upheld. This decision is final- with one exception.
Watchtower has decided to appeal to the United States Supreme court on the basis that their judicial hearings related to child abuse matters are “confidential intra-faith communications” and that they do not, and should not, reveal those communications or documents to anyone, including civil courts.
I’d like to make it very clear what Watchtower is doing here. They are fighting for their right NOT to allow civil authorities to dictate what is confidential, and what is not confidential.
All of this is in relation to their claim that elders do not have the right or duty to report child abuse to the authorities.
Watchtower overtly lies to their members by claiming that they obey secular laws, except when they conflict with God’s laws.
Yet they break the law every single time by advising elders NOT to report child abuse to the authorities.
It does NOT matter whether child abuse occurs in a mandatory reporting state- elders STILL do not report to the police because Watchtower has told them that ALL of their communications are protected by clergy-penitent privilege.
This is false- and it is exactly why they are losing tens of millions of dollars in child abuse civil cases. Watchtower advises elders to break the law.
And now they want the Supreme Court of the United States to agree with them.
The claim that the state of California has unfairly targeted Jehovah’s Witnesses and “intruded upon matters of church governance.”
Why???
How does compliance with mandatory child abuse reporting laws conflict with God’s laws? It doesn’t. This is a fabrication of Watchtower attorneys working for the Governing Body, and it’s become quite clear that they feel that compliance with these civil laws will spell disaster for their religion.
And they might be right.
If Jehovah’s Witnesses did the right thing and complied with the law, they would lose the tight grip of control over their elder bodies in ways which frighten the hell out of them.
There is a whole lot more to this story as well as the underlying cases involved, but I wanted to let you know what’s going on.
Attorneys for J.W. (the abuse victim) will be filing an opposition to Watchtower’s appeal in August, and we should have a decision from the Supreme Court by October on whether they will accept Jehovah’s Witnesses appeal for review.
Stay tuned!!
It will be interesting to see if other religious organizations support the JW’s in this endeavor. In the past, the “fringe” of religious practice (like JW’s, scientology and Christian Science) have been supported by “mainstream” religions as they see the erosion of rights of ANY religious organization, no matter how much they disagree with their theology, to be a threat to THEIR practice. The fringe religions are “cannon fodder” that help protect the big churches. Given the enormous influence of the religious right in politics at this time (and now on the Supreme Court), the chances of this “protect religions at all cost” legal Hail Mary are, unfortunately, significantly increased.
The battle to hold organizations who use their faith as a shield against secular law rages on. Using the sanctity of religion as an excuse to not be held accountable for crimes, especially against children, is abhorrent to me. Freedom of religion is a cherished right. But freedom to harm and abuse in the name of religion should never be tolerated.
OSD please take me to your leader What planet did you say you were from? There are a few on this blog that would be great on the first (ready for it….) SP ROAD TRIP!!! From one failing org to another !!! Let’s make the grand Poobah cry. One road trip could drive Scientology right into the ground. Sign me up!
George:”Happy to have left Scientology in 1989. Life gets better even now without Hubbard.”
aMEN!, BROTHER!
Zee Moo:”The Mace Kingsley schools and the old $cieno ‘Ranch’ are probably shaking with fear right now.”
AND DM is quaking in his teenie, tiny, handmade, oh-so-expensive boots.
Great piece – both the original, and the commentary linking it to Scientology.
I think this touches on a major issue of our times, related to other significant trends, in which there seems to be an ascendant strain of radical belief that anything under cover of religion should be free of any sort of governmental oversight – not even necessarily complying with regulations or even laws. It’s unfortunately supported by influential and even wealthy ministries and evangelists who cynically don’t want their own finances and cash streams scrutinized.
Sadly, I think it’s going to take some major scandals, and probably also a generational change, before even some sort of reasonable compromise can be reached.
Child abuse cases are difficult and tragic in the human cost. But in terms of the church/state jurisdictional conflicts they are the easiest. The state has jurisdiction, no ifs and or buts. Cults and traditional churches owe nothing less than complete cooperation. Cover ups by cults or traditional churches regarding abuses within these entities are outrageous and there must be criminal and civil consequences.
As a devout evangelical Christian I have always believed that transparency in all matters related to church is our best defense and protection against abuses. My own church experienced this in a case involving a church worker and an underage adolescent. Our church immediately notified authorities, the abuser was arrested and charged and convicted. The victim was offered counseling and the church members were immediately notified and kept informed as best as possible within the boundaries set by the police regarding disclosing such information to the public.
One of the big issues in cases like these is that the underage victim deserves absolute anonymity. Another issue is that others who may have been involved in a peripheral way should not be falsely accused or held in suspicion without their own rights being protected. Child predators are very strategic and secretive and sometimes they target churches because there is presumption of trust by people bringing their children in for childcare. It is often the case that other church workers are completely blindsided and are innocent.
In our church’s case, it involved a youth worker and a teenager and was regarding actions that happened outside of the church facilities.
I only say this to contrast the reaction of a legitimate and healthy church to a crisis and those churches and cults who have a dysfunctional and abusive culture that covers up or even enables abuse to occur regularly and systematically. After watching Aftermath on A&E, it is obvious that CoS is just such a culture. Same with JW and aspects of the RCC.
Since evangelical churches are run locally, the scope of abuse doesn’t go past an individual church’s walls. Potential exceptions to this, however, include para-church organizations, seminaries, multi-site megachurches, and denominational hierarchies. Many of these are wonderful organizations and some of them become toxic and should be avoided. Ostendens credenti, cave
” Ostendens credenti, cave ”
“Believer beware”
Got it.
“they obey secular laws, except when they conflict with God’s laws.”
nand THEY and only they can say what GOD’S LAWS are. THEY get to say they’re a religion; The US
government can’t naysay them due to the 1st Amendment. no matter WHAT they do, if they claim it’s a sacrament, the authorities must tread so very carefully. They’re hamstrung and muzzled. And, because the ‘religious leaders’ are all-powerful within their organization, the chances of internal correction are slim to none. About all the rank-and-file can do is recognize that the organization isn’t what they want, and leave. The parallels with scn are so striking, except we can and have traced scn’s use of the law and societal norms as a weapon to punish those not in favor with the ‘management’, establishing policies which can be argued as ‘normal and usual’ within religious communities, but are designed to control or destroy — whichever they need at a particular moment. Hubbard’s redefinition of ‘ethics’ is an egregious example of rules whose only purpose is to punish ‘transgressors
Yeah, those Founding Fathers were pretty deep thinkers, well worth keeping lists of their quotes around
kyle:”In Texas we have a saying concerning such folks, “They need to be taken out behind the woodshed.”
I thought that was what the ABUSERS did. 😉 In my misspent youth, I thought that was another way of being told I was gonna get a licking ‘out behind the woodshed’, not that I KNEW OR KNOW properly WHAT a “woodshed” was. A quick look-up confirmed my understanding of the idiom
Skyler:”It should be most interesting to see just who could possibly be so stupid and/or ignorant of prevailing opinions to stand up and speak out in support of abusing children. Can you imagine just who will choose to join this fight on the side that supports their right to abuse children?”
As I see it, no one’s arguing (outside of NAMBLA) for CHILD ABUSE. At most, they’re protecting internal, relatively informal documents that are ACCUSATIONS of possible misdeeds; not proof of guilt. As a measure of possibly excessive caution, they use those lists to ensure possible miscreants don’t get put into positions where they could have greater access to possible victims. That, to my mind, is laudable, even if it is ultimately unfair to some individuals who have never had a proper chance to be fount not guilty of the scurrilous accusations. As traumatic as the proceedings might be to them, they should be given their day or days in court, with the full force and fairness of the US legal system behind them. The way it is, their advancement in the organization is blocked by accusations they may not have known about and have not had an opportunity to defend their reputation against.
I disagree that the chances of this “protect religions at all cost” legal Hail Mary are significantly increased by a more conservative court. Only child abusers and protectors of child abusers would support such insanity. I think this legal Hail Mary is only for the purpose of delaying payment of the judgment, an act of childish vengeance against the abused. How Hubbard-esque!
Strange that stories of any Religion using its first amendment protections to protect and shield child abusers rarely if ever make the headlines in main stream media. Once the story of child molestation within the Catholic Church hit the headlines the public became justifiably outraged. We need journalists to expose this evil hiding behind Religion and shielded by our courts. It will take public outrage and anger to again defeat the ugly,unjust and indefensible religious protection of monsters.
Queen Bourbon:”We need journalists to expose this evil hiding behind Religion and shielded by our courts.”
You mean Mike, Tony, and all of us discussing this aren’t enough? I suspect that the exposure here is more effective than if a silly little paper rag,sine it can be found by Google, and print … not always so much.
My wife, a subscriber to the NY Times, hasn’t read it for months, perhaps years. They make good fire starters when Autumn comes around these parts again.
Well meaning people like most JWs follow principles and ideas connected to a higher power or eternal authority of some sort. So when their “elders” are not sincere, don’t follow the principles, or seem to care about infidelity to the higher power, it’s almost unbelievable to sincere followers. Those leaders take advantage of the sincererity of their followers, especially those who truly believe in the after life of some sort, and disguised it as policy or how they know better than parents! It’s so corrupt!! 😑
This could go either way. And NOT because of religion. Liberal justices have in the past shot down laws that require citizens that aren’t gov employees to report crimes to the gov as the gov’t doesn’t have the authority to order people to do so.
Remember that case of horrific child rape and murder by a guy in Vegas a couple decades ago?. His buddy knew what was happening but didn’t call the police. A wave laws were passed afterwards to force people to report child abuse. They all were shot down.
I haven’t read the law in question here so cannot further guess at outcome.
Not a lawyer here but I thinks this is a VAST difference between the US system and the Dutch system.
When I have knowledge of some crime I have to report it to the authorities. If I don’t a judge might punish me for it.
Don’t know about the systems in other European countries though.
Yes TrevAnon I have studied the Dutch constitution. It holds that human rights are derived from Parliament/gov’t rather than being inherent because one is a living human. Thus the gov’t can control your actions even if you aren’t stopping another’s rights as you mention.
I find it absolutely contemptible that a “religion” would protect child molesters and abusers for ANY reason. And then to argue for the right legally and publicly? The height of insanity. However, I have already seen some unlikely and “likely” support for Watchtower in several scientology “sponsored”sites and retweeted in others, so it’s likely that the cult is going to jump aboard. They are doing it in a veiled way that will allow them to disavow involvement, but it’s still there.
You’re right, Kat. It’s reprehensible for “church” leaders to protect transgressors when I believe that the organization SHOULD be the first to correct them for their misdeeds, turning them over to Law Enforcement when they’e been “properly chastised” or if the organization has no built-in means of correcting errant or deeply sick ‘leaders’ who would do such things. Sadly, the rank-and-file members in such an organization have no recourse but to refuse to support an organization which allows or condones such. Thus begins the exodus, or continues it But who’s going to give up what they believed the organization was going to give them; a tranquil Eternity, perhaps.
I live I a community which is a target for the JW’s dissemination. After years of dealing with them at my front door, I finally got them to agree to put me on their “do not call list”. It lasted about six months and they were back in groups. I talked to one of their elders and he said “Well, people are constantly moving so we do not keep the “do not call list” for more than six months. We do not want to miss any one.” So I put a huge Buddha statue on the front porch which does not stop them. But when I come to the front door, I tell them that they can speak but only if they take a meditation lesson for 30 minutes. if they still refuse to leave, I hand out an article which traces the Book Of Revelations to Jewish Mysticism. They never take the article but they do leave at this point. I have noticed that over the past year, they have been bringing young children with them.
in a community
The human mind is adept at filling in missing words and misspellings although easier if the first letter is correct even if the rest is jumbled. I didn’t notice that you had left out the word “in”. I enjoy your posts and cannot recall a time when something was amiss in any of your comments.
Thanks Happy to have left Scientology in 1989. Life gets better even now without Hubbard.
Last time a group of Jehovah’s Witnesses came to my door I asked them about the practice of shunning and disfellowshipping, making it clear I didn’t approve. The man in the group got rather huffy and defended the practice. They haven’t been back since, and as there’s a Kingdom Hall about 3 blocks from my house, I think I must have been put on some kind of a permanent “do not call” list. They used to come by all the time. I almost wish they’d come back, because now that I’ve started watching Lloyd Evans’ YouTube channel, I’d like to ask them if they know about Bottlegate!
George, people have put together some critical flyers you can give to JWs – turnabout is fair play. Here are a couple of examples:
https://jwvictims.org/flyers-publications/
https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/pamphlet.php
Hey yeah I had the same problem with them so I tell them the same thing I tell the Mormon missionaries when they show up on my front and I answer the door bell with my giant pit bull by my side growling. “Get off my porch or I open the door.” The word must have gotten around because none of them ever visit my place anymore.
I’d do the same for any nutty scientology folks if they showed up.
George,
I live in a community where JWs frequently troll. On one visit I told the two girls I had been in scamtology most of my life and was ruined by it all. I told them I had absolutely NO interest is ANY religion and did not believe there was value in any of them. I told them I was a practicing attorney and if they ever return to my house they would be trespassing because they had just been put on notice they are not welcome. Worked like a charm. Haven’t had any since but they do still bang on neighbor’s doors.
A few years ago I was doing some yard work and couldn’t avoid two JWs at my front gate. I had a polite conversation for a few minutes, accepted their flyer and then excused myself to continue my yard work.
The young woman I spoke with was oddly very much “being there in present time” in sciospeak. Full “confront” and eye to eye contact. It reminded me of being in a scientology communication training routine session. I could tell she TRULY believed in what she was saying and was ready to “confront and handle” any objections I might have offered to JW beliefs. Happily enough my yard work gave me the excuse to politely disengage.
She had CERTAINTY. That’s fundamentalist religion and that’s life.
“Scientologist vs. JW” could be a sequel to “Alien vs. Predator”
GEORGE, I LIVE IN a community which USED to by canvassed by the JW. One of my grade school classmates was one, I later found out. My mom, who was pretty open and nonjudgmental, would listen to them, then go about her day unconvinced Strangely, none come around these days. MIGHT have something to do with her preferring on hot days to wear skimpier clothing rather than turn the A/C up. She was a pretty ‘cool’ old dame(by her own reckoning) and most of my old girlfriends came down to visit with her years after they’d given me up for good.
Nice story. I might try taking my shirt off when they arrive.
Holy disease of sickness
Not sure if it’s Holy.
Sure it’s not.
OSD, It might not be “holy”, but it sure is “wholly” gross and disgusting.
That’s for damn sure, jere lull!
PickAnotherID, thanks for the snicker.
“And we of the Church believe that the laws of God forbid Man to destroy his own kind.
“To destroy the sanity of another.
“To destroy or enslave another’s soul.
“To destroy or reduce the survival of one’s companions or one’s group.”
Did you really mean it Ron?
That’s what I thought.
If it’s OK, I would like the, ‘Enslave Another’s Soul’. It sounds like a lot of fun!
I prefer a doubleheader at Yankee Stadium.
“Do as I say, not as I do.”
Love, Ron
Scribe, Ron ONLY believed he should be allowed to do whatever he wanted to do. What he wrote saying otherwise was just for PR.
“Do as thou wilst shall be the whole of the Law” — Crowley
“Do what thou wilt . . . ” is the first part. Here’s an excerpt from a wikipedia article on Thelema.
[The fundamental axiom, tenet, or boilerplate underlying Thelema—known as the “Law of Thelema”—is “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law”. The traditional corresponding phrase is “Love is the law, love under will.” Other common phrases, coined by Aleister Crowley, which are associated with Thelema are, “It is the mark of the mind untrained to take its own processes as valid for all men, and its own judgments for absolute truth“, and “For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect.“ These expressions can be characterized as having moral, mystical, and socio-political implications. In the Thelemic worldview or model, each person has a “True Will” and (insofar as each person acts in accordance with his or her Will) the nature of a person’s interactions with the world (or universe) is a form of “love” or harmony. This is expressed further by a third metaphor, “every man and every woman is a star,” which portrays the distinct nature of every individual as residing in a non-overlapping point of space and time; collisions between different persons being infrequent if each is aware of—and acting in accordance with—their true purpose in life.]
If that wiki description is accurate I would have no concern about associating with a Thelamite (as long as he didn’t try to convert me – haha)
When indeed Religion is kindled into enthusiasm, its force like that of other passions is increased by the sympathy of a multitude. But enthusiasm is only a temporary state of Religion, and whilst it lasts will hardly be seen with pleasure at the helm. Even in its coolest state, it has been much oftener a motive to oppression than a restraint from it.
James Madison
It should be most interesting to see just who could possibly be so stupid and/or ignorant of prevailing opinions to stand up and speak out in support of abusing children. Can you imagine just who will choose to join this fight on the side that supports their right to abuse children?
Surely, this will have to become one of the greatest examples of stupidity and ignorance this world has ever seen. When one person stands up to say, “I support the right of people to abuse children”, just what kind of malcontent lunatic (*) will then also stand up and say, “Me too!”? (the only person I can think of who is sufficiently en-bubbled is The Rat who claims to be the Pope of the scam.
Please note I created the term “en-bubbled” to mean something similar to “enbalmed”. It means someone who is so deeply trapped within their bubble, they cannot think of anything more sensible to say other than repeating some of the ridiculous phrases found in their bubble. Most all of these phrases originated some 50 years ago and are bound together with several “laws” that dictate these phrases must never, ever be altered. These phrases are revered as absolute laws.
Also please note I used the symbol (*) to indicate any one or more of the following words: malcontent lunatic miscreant reprobate degenerate. Strangely enough, the dictionary seems to define each of these words strictly by referring to one or more of the other words. It is essentially just one big circle jerk.
Sometimes I want to believe that the Governing Body is well-intentioned within their own ideology. But I’ve seen too much at this point to consider this possible. They have made this religion into a child-abusing institution just as the Roman Catholic church did before them. I was always angry, as a former RC, that it took atheists to lead the charge to defend the children of Catholics. I’m glad in this case that there are a lot of former JWs in the fight, though it’s still heartbreaking that the current JWs go along with the machine abusing their own children.
Thanks for covering this. I agree it’s very important with wide-reaching implications. I remember seeing Pat Robertson, who wasn’t even sure Catholics were Christian, defending the Unification Church because it gave religions more power. It’s beyond sick. It’s threatening what’s left of our Bill of Rights.
Oh Cat!… don’t get me started on Pat Robertson! I’m a Christian and most others I know well are as disgusted and embarrassed by that “man” as anyone else. Bigoted, judgmental (& mental!) arse!
I truly hope bigger ministries and churches do NOT get behind or support this attempt. Both the church I attended for 15+ years and the one we attend now (after moving) train volunteers at ALL levels that once you’re serving in any leadership capacity, you must be willing to be a required reporter. If ANYthing questionable is reported, “confessed” or comes to you in any capacity involving someone threatening to harm themselves or others or stating they’ve done so, it is to be reported both to authorities and to whomever you report OR leadership higher-up immediately. The 2nd step is to be certain authorities are contacted and also to ensure that anyone involved is offered appropriate help such as counseling, referrals to victims advocates and support groups, etc.
I just can’t fathom a church wanting the burden of that information and using it to protect someone and keep them from facing appropriate legal consequences or (in the case of someone threatening suicide or displaying mental health issues) the ramifications of what someone might do if not immediately referred to appropriate resources. Yet… I know there are groups out there like JW’s, co$ and even so-called Christian organizations that operate in that fashion and it’s so completely wrong!
Of course, old Tubby would have justified anything and everything as “old thetans” and new bodies, so sex of any combination or stripe was “religious”. I mean he religiously cheated on his wives, each and every one, AFAICT.
I want all of my PC Folders so that I can show and prove what happened to me REALLY DID HAPPEN TO ME. I wonder if there is a way to get them.
Maybe if enough of us demand it?
I’ve got some people that would like to start a small war. Maybe that’ll help.
OSD:
“”I’ve got some people that would like to start a small war. Maybe that’ll help.”
Sometimes, I like your style, but I’m enjoying my sedentary retirement and you’ve got your required board time.
Maybe these people will help. Xoxo
https://scientologyabuselawsuit.com/
Thinking a bit mrs, I seem to recall that Greek society of about the time of the Old/Jewish Testament, older men “mentoring” (raping) young men/ boys was a cherished tradition, so it’s likely to be in there SOME place. It’s just too gross for modern “scholars” to suggest it should be an “honored sacrament”(puke).
After a couple seconds’ thought and another sip of coffee, I thought”Spare the rod and spoil the child.” AFAICT, that’s not from the bible but a common saying attributed to some preacher, perhaps in early colonial New England. A quick google finds Wiktionary attributing it to a poet.
The poet based it on Proverbs 13:14, “Whoever spares the rod hates their children,
but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.”
If you are fighting to maintain the concealment of physical or sexual harm to a child, you are below contempt.
In Texas we have a saying concerning such folks, “They need to be taken out behind the woodshed.”
Agreed. Sexual (or physical) abuse of a child is what makes me MOST furious about groups like $cientology, JW’s, FLDS, etc.
Anyone who can harm a child in any way whatsoever is a vile human being. And people who subsequently work to cover it up have no conscience; no soul.
rosemarie:”So when their “elders” are not sincere, don’t follow the principles, or seem to care about infidelity to the higher power, it’s almost unbelievable to sincere followers.”
I’d take that to being flatly unbelievable to sincere followers who honestly believe their leaders ARE holding themselves to a higher standard.
My wife passed by the computer, saw my 11:14 AM comment, and said my reply was unclear and confusing. Thus:
I am certain that SINCERE followers who believe their leaders are holding themselves to a higher standard would be categorically unable to believe that those leaders were insincere or didn’t care about fidelity to that higher power or its decrees. Usually, the lower-level followers are themselves exhorted to hold themselves to a higher standard than non-believers, so OF COURSE it follows that their leaders would hold to an even higher standard of moral ðical behavior.
As I read this, I wondered:”IS there a biblical justification of child abuse? I certainly hope not, but it’s possible to “prove” pretty much anything with the Bible.
As Chris Shelton has pointed out, it is belief, not behavior, that is sacrosanct.
Good article, Mike. “Freedom of religion is a cherished right. But freedom to harm and abuse in the name of religion should never be tolerated.”
$cientology filing amicus curiae brief supporting the JW’s in 3…2…1…
The Mace Kingsley schools and the old $cieno ‘Ranch’ are probably shaking with fear right now.
I’ve had a, Amicus Curiae, once. It was delicious! Best meal I’ve ever had!