Here is some extra special hype about the “Flag Only L Rundowns.”
Hubbard made a LOT of money selling these things, promising “stable exteriorization” — though not a single person EVER has accomplished this “end phenomena.” Not one. Not ever.
And what is amazing — everyone KNOWS this and carries on with the charade. The next person who finishes L12 will come up produce a “glowing” success story about how astonishing this “tech” is and pretend stable exteriorization is something that HAS been accomplished! Their future promotional pieces will continue to make the same false claims.
And all the while, Miscavige has been telling people at Int for DECADES “the L’s are totally out tech” but he “doesnt have the time to fix them” — he pulled KTL, LOC, the Briefing Course, Class VIII course, OEC and other things from circulation and sale because THEY were out tech, but he has never pulled the L’s. Because they are HUGE moneymaker. L’s are sold as one time payments — $40,000 as I recall. If it takes 5 hours or 20 hours (beyond a certain point you have to pay for extra hours at “Class XII Rates” which are the highest possible).
Here is a promotional email Flag sent out to pitch L 12. If this were a normally regulated money-making operation, they would be prosecuted for blatant false advertising and fraud.
L 12 is the OT Executive Rundown
In a reference of 3 June 1971 LRH said this about L 12:
“This is the most startling breakthrough in auditing since 1967”
This is the only rundown in all of Scientology that has as part of its end phenomenon stable exteriorization. While delivering it as a research pilot to the Flag Executive Briefing Course trainees on the ship LRH nicknamed it the “Immortality Rundown”.
There are 3 steps to L 12. The first step is a very OT address to the body. Realize, before you can stably exteriorize someone you must first fully extrovert them from their body. This will only happen if they are fully comfortable in the body. So a very rapid OT handling is done to handle any discomforts of the body.
The second step of L 12 is usually the lengthiest. On this step you address valences, beingnesses and identities of the past. This includes identities and beingnesses the PC himself has been or those of others that are charged and have influenced his past.
There is an auditing technique used only on this step of L 12 and nowhere else in Scientology. It is so utterly impinging that to avoid making case gains you couldn’t just refuse to answer the auditing command. You would have to actually leave the room.
Remember from your TRs courses “buttons”? These are defined as: “Restimulators, words, voice tone, music, whatever they are… can cause him discomfort, embarrassment, or upset, or make him laugh uncontrollably.”
It is important for you to follow this concept here in order to get the flavor of what we are accomplishing in L 12. A thetan so much wants to be himself and not dramatize other valences and identities. To suddenly “fly off the handle” or go into uncontrolled grief, or gleeful giggles whatever, is resisted by the thetan.
People use different handlings to try to just be themselves such as “counting to 10 before responding”, “taking lots of Vits and Bl”, getting extra sleep, just avoiding high pressure situations etc.
L 12 has a means of sudden impingement that snaps these valences and identities right into view. (It has all the subtlety of cold water in the face) The idea is to rapidly identify the past beingness or valence and then blow it. Yes, blow it completely and forever. The velocity of case gain in this action can be breathtaking.
On this second step of L 12 you blow many, many past beingnesses and identities and you are not done with this step until the PC is exteriorized.
This brings up the question, “Why does LRH call this the OT executive rundown?” To understand this and to really get the full concept of what this L is really accomplishing we need to look a bit closer at this concept of exteriorization. It is defined as: “The act of moving out of the body with or without full perception.”
Given the confidential aspect of the L and the importance of getting this key idea across to you I am going to briefly use a personal anecdote.
When I first got into Scientology years ago I heard about exteriorization and thought it sounded great. My initial concept was of possibly moving up to the ceiling and looking down on the body. Well not long into my auditing that exact thing happened. I was looking down on my body. The first thing I realized was: “I am going bald”
It is a silly personal anecdote but I mention it because it shows how my idea of exteriorizing was to swap one Mest viewpoint for another. If one considers exteriorizing into a wall or a TV or a ceiling or any other Mest viewpoint he would probably be just as well off to remain in the body location. The body is at least mobile.
Years ago having exteriorized up to the ceiling I soon had the new problem: How to get off a ceiling.
One can consider exteriorization strictly on a first dynamic and a self determined basis. But it is a very limited look. Conceive if you can, being exterior on more than one dynamic – playing life as a game from an exterior view.
In the same period that LRH was researching the Ls he was making discoveries on a parallel line of research in management technology. It is called the “multiple viewpoint system” of management. Ron describes it like this:
“Something new is added to the world with the multiple viewpoint system… You have to be pan determined as daylight to even conceive of such a system. For it’s a true OT system. Every situation is viewed from the viewpoint of the branch office, or the regiment on the firing line, or the squadron in the sky.”
Consider again that L 12 is the “OT Executive Rundown”. It gets you into an exteriorized and pan determined view of your life and dynamics. Does this concept of getting exterior on L 12 take on more meaning for you now? Good.
With the PC exteriorized we are ready for the 3rd and final step of the L. It is quite a technical breakthrough and is very confidential. Therefore what I can tell you is limited. Suffice it to say that Ron made an important discovery about certain energy phenomenon that can factually destabilize a thetan. Once handled the PC is able to attest to being “a stable thetan exterior who’s abilities have been greatly increased, and who is not liable to become PTS to anything. (The final step gives this stability.)”
In closing I am going to give you an LRH quote. Let me set the stage a bit first. There is a Sea Org term LRH uses: “midrats”. This means midnight rations and is a meal served in the galley around midnight for those who are up and working late.
The location was in the research room aboard the Apollo and the date was June 7 1971 late in the evening. LRH had just made some final breakthroughs on the L Rundowns and he had the Sea Org auditors gotten to come to his research room and he gave them a briefing that lasted over 2 hours. The material is confidential and now heard only on the class XII course. Here is how Ron began:
“You have that process right as of this minute. Now it utterly alters your viewpoint in the HGC as to your expectancy and your production. Alters it completely. And that is why I’m talking to you at the expense of your sleep and your midrats and so forth… But I knew definitely that I did have to talk to you and did have to get you this information and give you some scope of what this means. Because it almost totally re-targets what you’re engaged upon.”
What follows is several hours of remarkable data. Finally in closing LRH says this:
“We’ve got it made. We really got it made… And I have confidence that you can handle this very easily. So I wish you lots of success with it. It looks to me like we’ve just opened the doors of the world to Freedom.”
So there you go! This is a Class 12 Auditor briefing on L12.
I want to help you get there. Please call me or write anytime.
Love,
Barbara Dews
Even the Class XII auditors offer up complete mumbo-jumbo about bald spots and “exterior on all dynamics” and that this is not just “about MEST”…
Exterior DOES mean operating outside your body, no matter how these people try to dance around and redefine it.
This has been one of Hubbard’s most enduring promises for scientology. And one that has been repeatedly proven unattainable. But that has never deterred the promises from being made.
Aquamarine and John Doe – continued from below – In a Wiki article on World Population it said that an estimated 100 billion humans have walked the earth. Probably billions of people over human history have experienced moments of peak experience, satori, kensho, transcendence, mystical, religious or other such descriptions. Attempting to assign science or logic to such experience doesn’t work in my opinion. Some people pursue various practices in an attempt to create or recreate such experiences.
One way to look at it is, “Everything is the way it is just because it is, and everything is already alright, already.” This doesn’t mean one is insensitive to human suffering and people do have noble causes. It only says the universe is not going to change because I want it to. The continuum goes on.
Hubbard said “he and we” can change the universe. Good luck with that and some people joined the sea org thinking it was possible.
End of my philosophical pondering. 🙂
Kenshō
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
Part of a series on
Buddhism
Dharma Wheel.svg
History[show]
DharmaConcepts
[show]
Buddhist texts[show]
Practices[show]
Nirvāṇa[show]
Traditions[show]
Buddhism by country[show]
Outline
Dharma Wheel.svg Buddhism portal
vte
禪 Zen
Part of a series on
Zen Buddhism
Ensō
Main articles[show]
Persons[show]
Doctrines[show]
Traditions[show]
Awakening[show]
Teachings[show]
Practice[show]
Schools[show]
Related schools[show]
vte
Kenshō[note 1] (見性) is a Japanese term from the Zen tradition. Ken means “seeing,” shō means “nature, essence”.[4][2] It is usually translated as “seeing one’s (true) nature,” that is, the Buddha-nature.
Kenshō is an initial insight or awakening, not full Buddhahood.[5] It is to be followed by further training to deepen this insight, and learn to express it in daily life.[6][7][8]
The term kenshō is often used interchangeably with satori, which is derived from the verb satoru,[9] and means “comprehension; understanding”.[web 1][note 2][note 3]
I love this comment of yours!
“Kensho”…”seeing one’s true nature”. That’s it!
That describes what I experienced! I was calm and serene in a very fundamental way. I was me and I knew it. I was me, had always been me, would always be me: I existed, had always existed, would always exist.
Again, its hard to put this into words because there were no words. In fact, words made it go away. just as soon as some words came into my mind – I recall thinking, “I like this. This is nice. Let me hold onto this”… POOF, all gone 🙂
I agree that many many people throughout the ages have likely experienced their own version of this. Also, it doesn’t matter if one calls it “Kensho” or “exteriorization” or Peanut Butter and Jelly or any of the terms for the experience of knowing or recognizing one’s own true nature.
Thanks again, Richard!
Aqua – “Acknowledged” to use sciospeak 🙂
Maybe everyone who once was a scientologist has that nagging little thought occasionally come to mind, “I wonder if I missed anything?” AS-IS it (get rid of it) immediately! Scientology can be sticky – lol
Maybe everyone who once was a Scientologist has that nagging little thought come to mind, “I wonder if I missed anything?” AS-IS it (get rid of it) immediately!
Didn’t one automatically qualify for an INT Rundown after going exterior ? Or at least a CS-53 ?
Mo money ! Mo money ! Mo money !
You are correct Valboski,
See Cindy’s comment below and learn Wynski. It didn’t hurt for her to speak the truth and to be fair, did it?
What ARE you insanely blathering on about now Fool? They ALWAYS check for out int after a first Ext origination.
Now, go back to sexually molesting a kid like a good Hubbard Bot.
Valboski, After going Ext they take you in to check for Out Int as you said. But if you have no charge on it, nothing reading and you’re happy about your Int experience, then nothing is taken up and you’re out of there for under 1 hours of processing. The rest of the intensive you may or may not have had to buy for this is credited as hours on account. Now if you had plenty of hours on account already, there would be no more charge for checking for Out Int. It would just be taken from your existing hours. So no new money would be required then. And I’m not defending anything Scientological here. Just correcting a misperception and giving the facts.
Lucid dreamers (dreamers who know they are dreaming) are having OBEs. I was into that in college. Occasionally I would actually experience myself climbing out of my sleeping body.
Did it either help me or harm me? Not in my view. Even if Scientology could reliably induce OBEs that would not necessarily bring enlightenment or mental improvement.
The actor Jason Beghe said he had an OBE during a Scientology routine when he first joined the cult. But he is totally against Scientology now and realizes that he was scammed.
Out of body experiences are not real. It is a mental disorder called “disassociation”. Study up on it.
Disassociation is a form of mental illness. Scientology can and will drive you insane. Stay away from it. It is not healthy for your well being.
You are a human being having a human being experience.
Scientology sells spiritual stuff because it can’t be proven. It is based on belief. “What is true for you is true for you” says it all. How convenient of L Ron Hubbard.
There is no proof you live lifetime after lifetime.
No science from Scientology. Just parlor tricks.
Study up on mind control.
L Ron Hubbard was just another charlatan peddling religion.
Good point. Disassociation is also just one step short of full-blown psychosis, which explains why Scientologists all too often go “PTS Type III” psychotic due to auditing and processing – Hubbard was trying to push people into having those alluring-seeming OBEs, but some will end up going too far and into insanity.
Also, as I’ve written about, supposed past life experiences have been proven to be just a type of false memory phenomenon, and the superficially most impressive cases like Bridey Murphey have been debunked and disproven. If there are any such real experiences, no one has yet come forth with a case that can actually be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, and in particular I don’t believe anyone has ever done anything really impressive like start fluently speaking a foreign language, which is the sort of thing that ought to happen all the time if it weren’t just a phenomenon of over-stimulated imagination.
Peacemaker, I hear you.
I’ve shared this family anecdote before.
My late mother came from an family of decidedly poor Immigrant Italians. There were 8 children. There had been 12; 4 of them died in infancy. My grandmother was married in Italy at age 16; she died at 44 or so. Pretty much continually pregnant. There was very little money. They struggled together during the Depression. You get the picture; there was no money left after the basic bills were paid. They lived in a large city on the fifth floor of a walk up that was a cold water flat. There was an old piano that a former tenant had left after having moved out. It stayed there, in the “parlor”, taking up a lot of space, because it was too heavy to move.
The youngest of the family were twin girls. One of them, somehow, from the time she could sit up straight, from the time she was a tiny child, could play this piano. Needless to say, she’d never had a lesson. There was barely enough for food, clothing, paying the rent. Piano lessons were out of the question. The family did have a radio. If you sang a song, she could accompany you, with correct chords, on the piano. No matter what anyone sang, she could pick out chords on the piano to accompany you on the piano. She could hear a song on the radio and then go play it by ear on that old piano. From the age of 3 or 4 she started doing this and for the rest of her life she could do it.
She never took any lessons. I’m not saying she was Mozart or Rachmaninoff. But she could just hear something, whether you sang it or she heard it on the old Victrola or the radio, sit down, and play that song, picking out the chords – somehow. No one knew how she did this. I was given piano lessons as a child and she played far, far better than I ever did with never a lesson! A total natural.
So I ask you – and I’m not trying to be right about anything, btw, truly I’m not – but, if she didn’t play the piano in some former life, with the ability to do so somehow staying with her into that one – how did she do this? No lesson and from the time she was small, sitting there with small fingers stretching to make chords? Truly a puzzlement, no?
Interested in your thoughts, or anyone’s.
Aqua, thanks for your comments. I have often wondered about such phenomena too but have no definitive answers. I think such things will always remain a mystery.
I have certainly had “out of body experiences” a few times (nothing associated with scientology although I was always hoping for that) as well as clear past life memories (both in and out of scientology). As for the OBEs, I can only say that I experienced them but can’t prove my experience and don’t feel that I need to. I don’t know if it was a valid experience or if, as Wog & Peacemaker say, it’s just disassociation – a form of mental illness. As for the past life recall, I can’t prove that either but should be able to easily enough. Not the wild ‘whole track’ and space opera stuff, but I should be able to clearly recall things associated with my immediately prior life that I have fairly certain memories of. It should be easy enough to come up with a name, places lived, jobs worked, schools attended, family member names and place of death. But I can’t. Not only can I not do this, I don’t know anyone who can. And I believe in past lives! Since I can’t even come close to proving this, I have to admit that it is purely belief and only belief. Perhaps is provides some comfort in a nihilistic universe. Who knows? Even in the Tibetan Buddhist traditions of reincarnated lamas there is no proof. Look no further than the controversy surrounding the Karmapa lineage for example. That one still isn’t settled even though these high level bodhisattvas should be able to put this matter to bed easily.
Maybe some of the more accomplished posters here can prove a past life existence, but I’m not holding my breath. FOOL certainly isn’t going to provide anything but ridicule even though every cell of his meat sack body is saturated with KSW flavored Kool-Aid. Of course his pat answer is that no one could possibly ‘have’ such phenomena displayed and be ok with that even though every seeker on the planet is craving that knowledge.
Why have you got to drag me into every one of your comments? And why would I ridicule your comment? It’s quite lucid and normal unlike Peacemaker’s plaintive cry to others that past lives don’t exist (in order to obfuscate all he has been up to).
Ms. B,
I hear you on everything.
I believe in past lives too.
I don’t know why.
I have no proof.
I don’t recall any former identities.
I never had any recalls of past life experiences while in session.
The only thing – and this is going to sound SOOOO crazy but what the hell – the ONLY thing that’s kind of “real” for me about a past life is – are you ready? Because I don’t think I am – is the kind of SLEEVES that women wore in the mid 18th century. You know those sleeves that are very tight from the shoulder to just above the elbow, and then they kind of fan out with a lot of material, usually lace? I think they were the style in the 1760s. Anyway, whenever these sleeves were popular, at some point in the 1700s, when I see them in a photo, or in some BBC costume drama, etc., its REAL to me somehow that I WORE those sleeves. Not even the whole dress, mind you – just the sleeves! How whacko is that I ask you. But there it is. My “reality” on a past life…18th century… Sleeves. I couldn’t make this up. And by the way, not even 100% certainly,on this picayune thing either. Just a sense that, yes, I KNOW those sleeves.
Now, where did this come from? NO idea. No clue.
But past lives, my belief in? Well, here’s some “logic” purposefully in quotes.
Here’s something that occurred to me:
Everything else “comes back”.
The leaves on the trees die in the winter. They reappear in the spring. Not the SAME leaves, they’re different leaves, but they’re the same KIND of leaves. Ditto the flowers, the grass. Things in nature die and come back, why not us? But I really don’t know.
It is fun for me talking about it though, provided its not upsetting anyone reading and posting here.
More likely its causing eye-rolls and head shakes but that’s OK.
In the immortal words of Olive Oil’s boyfriend, “I am what I am”, said Popeye The Sailor Man.
As a housekeeper at Sandcasle I did my job hightoned At a corner of the building something slowed me down. Around the corner I looked into a class XII auditors eyes slowing me as a scientologist down.
If class XIIs can observe around corners and avoid collisions we all slowes down and can be lowed and observant instead of high.
?????
Here is a few helping hands, Skylar.
Thank you. I can use all the hands I can get.
A guy from our tiny shrinking mORGue went to Flag and stayed there for almost 1 year. He put all of his services on credit cards. He did his Grades at Flag and then did all three L’s. He came home and was 10 feet tall and bullet proof. That did not last. Soon – he was broke and broken.
He spent money like a crazy man. This was back when the banks were lending money to people who did not even have jobs. He had his own business and he went on a crazy spending spree.
Within 1 year, he went broke. He never paid back his debt and filed bankruptcy. He lost his house to foreclosure. He had vehicles repossessed. His partner lost his house to foreclosure and moved to Clearwater to avoid any embarassment from the tiny little mORGue. The L’s completion told people in the mORGue that when he did his ethics handling at Flag about filing bankruptcy, Flag MAA showed him a reference about “Pirates and Bums” and he justified not paying back the banks. I kept my mouth shut but felt this was not ethical and he had lost his mind. I was right. He is a nut job.
I wish Mike would publish the bankruptcies, divorces and foreclosures of Scientologists who do not honor their debt. They need to be put on the wall of shame.
Over at ESMB, there’s a thread with lots of such stories about people who did the Ls:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/threads/anyone-do-the-ls-are-the-promoted-wins-for-real.19077/
Crashing and burning after the high, seems to be a fairly common outcome.
Interesting information, Xenu.
Scientologists are far from the only people whose spending far exceeds their income, who borrow lots of money without the wherewithal to repay it, who stiff their creditors, declare bankruptcies, default on their mortgages, get foreclosed on, far from the only people who don’t pay their taxes, incur tax liens etc.
Scientologists have plenty of company in this area.
But normal people aren’t proud of this. These are things that normal people are kind of ashamed of.
But not our cult friends!
Scientologists – at least the ones I knew, and I knew 6 of them like this – are the only people I’ve ever met who are PROUD of being extremely financially irresponsible. I’ve heard three of them actually brag about it.
The reference they inevitably spouted was LRH’s “Spirit of Play”.
Most likely the cult made them feel good with the “Pirates and Bums” reference too.
Being a pirate or a bum was a good thing.
it was. “Yippee, I’m into Spirit of Play! I’m a pirate! I’m a bum!”
And all of this, coming from… their RELIGION. Their spiritual advisors 🙂
You can’t make this stuff up, folks. You just can’t.
Aqua, I think current CofS members are unusually likely to get into severe financial trouble including foreclosure and bankruptcy – due, obviously, to the inordinate amount of financial pressure they are put under, and the sort of rationalizations of financial subterfuge that you describe. And the specific reports we have about the the St. Louis Org, along with a list of members and financial problems, bears that out.
Agreed on all, PM. The cult puts them over the moon with its praise and love bombing too.
Provided you diverted the funds to them,in what other religion are you given pins, plaques, trinkets and trophies after declaring bankruptcy and incurring federal tax liens?
This is Mel Brooks satire material. I doubt even he couldn’t make this up.
“Could” make this up.
I noticed lrh makes the comment, “not liable to become PTS to anything” so wouldn’t that mean anyone who’s completed L12 should not have and does not need to disconnect from anyone ?!
Aha! A wise albeit sarcastic person among the fray at last! Yes, I did L12 and so can post here willy-nilly, it’s like water off a duck’s back to me.
One hell of a post.
In the history of Buddhism, there have always been reports of “magical” or mystical powers that past spiritual masters have attained. The Buddha was careful to advise his followers not to seek such “powers” as they are irrelevant to the Eight-fold Path, not conducive to attaining enlightenment. In other words, forget the parlor tricks and put your energy into meditation practice.
Hubbard enticed his minions with the promise of magical powers, all of which are fake. Assuming you could really “exteriorize” or “will” your missing car keys to come to you, what does that have to do with real spiritual growth and insight into ultimate reality? Hubbard was a master con man, but was otherwise utterly clueless about any kind of spiritual development.
Spot on Bix!!!
“Acid heads” (LSD users) probably claimed a few such abilities back in the ’60s and ’70s. A song lyric I recall went something like, “Come along with me and take a journey to the center of the mind.” I guess that’s the opposite of “exterior”. (joke) I dropped acid a few times but I wasn’t a true acid head. I was more of a recreational user than a determined truth seeker using drugs to explore the paranormal. Probably some acid heads and pot heads thought exterior with full perception was a possibility. Maybe not a true belief but a suspension of disbelief. “Turn on, tune in, drop out” said Timothy Leary.
But if only I could “will” my car keys to come to me, I could “will” them to scoop up a bunch of cash from my bank teller’s cash drawer and then I could make one great big “donation” to my favorite church.
What is my favorite church? Why, it’s any church that is not affiliated with scamatology or any of the horrible cretins that run that scam.
The proof that all these stupid powers are complete bullshit follows: If hubbert could will objects to come to him, he wouldn’t ever have to bother with all this scamatology bullshit. He could just sit inside a bank and “will” all the cash in the cash drawers to come to him. He wouldn’t need any middle-men/women and could just get all the cash directly. No need for all of the horseshit. He could just will all the cash to come unto him.
He could still have started a new religion. Maybe he could call it “Cashamology”?
Bix,
His lectures are peppered with instances in which he’d infer that at some point someone studying Scientology would come into possession of some extraordinary power or ability, but, at the same time, he’d advise it would best serve everyone involved if one did not use this extraordinary power. He’d usually give this advice in an amusing, non-serious way.
He would ALSO infer that HE had such powers – sometimes he’d outright state that he did – but there would ALWAYS be some reason couched within some amusing anecdote as to why he didn’t make use of it when he could of.
I did L12 (and L10 ). I never knew that was the ep. I did like it and i think it worked. But i agree -it costs a lot and the high didn’t last that long.
excla stated:
“I did L12 (and L10 ). I never knew that was the ep. I did like it and i think it worked. But i agree -it costs a lot and the high didn’t last that long.”
iMO, that was true of every “gain” in scn; The higher the high, the bigger the crash. Scn weren’t nuttin’ but a very expensive roller-coaster ride.
I am wondering if anyone has written a comprehensive list of the courses that Miscavige has removed from the ‘Bridge’ along with the speculation as to why he removed each of them. I know Miscavige has the pat answer about ‘getting the tech more on Source’ and ‘Standard’ but I’m sure there’s a real reason and I am wondering what everyones speculation is as to why he removed these courses. If there isn’t a list already out there this might be a good topic for a post.
Hey Mike, didn’t Miscavage also pull the OTDEBUG? I remember various courses Being pulled, altered and changed around every time I finally had enough money saved to do one it suddenly was unavailable . I found it strange that Hubbard’s writings were not to be altered … ALOT of red flags for me.
Mike, good article and gets to one of Hubbard’s biggest frauds. Exterior with full perception. We have a better chance of buying the Brooklyn Bridge.
Geoff Levin:
“We have a better chance of buying the Brooklyn Bridge.”
BUYING the bridge is EASY! It’s getting a clear title for it that’s the trouble. Just like scn in that way: We all paid a lot, one way or another (sometimes our souls), and got NOTHING real in “exchange”, except, possibly, a piece of paper of some sort.
Something that stood out to me in Hubbs writing about L12…”A thetan so much wants to be himself and not dramatize other valences and identities. To suddenly “fly off the handle” or go into uncontrolled grief, or gleeful giggles whatever, is resisted by the thetan”.
Those are all actual symptoms of a neurological disorder or brain injury. They can occur also with Alzheimers, dementia, stroke, ADHD, to name a few.
I think he wrote of those, as he himself would experience them. He most certainly had a mental illness, compounded with a separate neurological disorder.
Kristin I thought the same thing!
Ah! Miss Gushing Praise! Have you ever had an original thought?
Have you ever made a comment that doesn’t make you sound like a condescending asshole?
If you want to know what “stable exteriorization” in scientology “looks like” it’s super easy. In the morning, after you take a dump on the commode, look down between your legs into the water and check out the submerged pile you just dropped. *That’s* what stable exteriorization looks like. That is the end state of Scientology. A 750K pile of crap.
I’m beside myself.
I told you to stay away from those old fashioned duplicating machines…now you are besides yourself…
Congrats OSD
You have gone exterior
Lol
So, you have you gone into the valence of a zerox machine?
Thank you, that sums it up.
Which part of the turd is Toxic Tater Tot Tyrant hiding or moving or altering or coating with fluorescent, gold-flaked paint? Who gives a fuck?
The “tech” was and is dreck.
Yes, some of us wasted significant chunks of our lives on this garbage. The sooner ex-scientologists accept this, the sooner they can recover their abilities to think and feel and love and live. It’s a tough lesson, but it can yield amazing rewards; embrace it!
My opinion.
Carpe Diem.
Thank you.
I now have a proper answer to my wife who complains I spend too much time occupying the facilities.
I can now chalk up my efforts to achieve ‘full stable exteriorization’ in the morning as a worthy spiritual endeavor.
I remember the lovely Piers Springthorpe talking about his Ls. I think he did all three but certainly L11. In fact I saw his testimonial video in the Flag HGC one time. It sounded amazing. A few months later Piers died suddenly I believe of a heart attack. I don’t think he was even 40 years old.
Also, I always wondered what the “special Ls TRs” was all about. Apparently Ls auditors didn’t do TRs as we knew it. Is that right?
It is a way of delivering a command to the preclear with such “intention” (and force) their bank cannot resist it…
Not kidding
Martin,
In 1971, at AOLA, about half of us auditors were using eye-to-eye contact with our PC. We were getting much better results than the usual eyes to the other body auditing. Some SO techie saw us drilling and went berserk. Next we were all called in and told that eye-to-eye was a Class XII, and Class XII only!!!! Some of us ignored him and kept on getting better results. Happily no videos back then, nor secchecks weekly.
There may be other differences for the Class XII, but I know nothing.
A list of L12 steps was recently on line somewhere (ESMB?). The one I remember is the auditor shouts “HORSES!” and there is a group of related items he takes up, don’t recall how.
Also read years ago that scn had promulgated a phony L12 on line to mess up cases. Dastardly.
My guess is that eliminating all those courses were merely bean-counting decisions: A ratio of number of staff and man hours required to deliver a service per dollar received. For example, the Briefing Course required trained sups, case supervisors, and a functioning Qual and Ethics. And it typically took years for a non-full-time student to complete all of the levels. I suspect it was the same for the OEC and similar for the others that got canned. No one should be surprised that the COS is after the best bang for their bucks. They get the bucks. You get banged.
I think you nailed the reason, Chris!
THE SOLUTION FOR MISSING EPS
While at Flag on the advanced levels, I guess I must have mentioned my disappointments about not attaining the magical OT abilities as promised explicitly in LRH’s writing and tapes. This is me not attaining them in their full glory nor nor anyone else. When exactly would these super-fantastic OT skills, which had been written and spoken about since the early 50’s, become a reality on the current grade chart lineup? After all, I AM spending a ton of money here.
Their solution to my reasoned and sensible questions was to CS me for the Hidden Standard Rundown on exactly that point. How evil.
I was just trying to get what I was paying for and I knew the operating thetan tech claims inside out.
Anyways, I concluded that most of the Flag Auditors had not listened to all the early tapes I had, where LRH made his most hyperbolic descriptions and claims.
I wisely kept my mouth shut after that. It just cost me too much money to ask too many questions or attempt to hold people’s feet to the fire.
I quit after a bit. NO ONE was making it. Just no one. I could see it plain as day.
Forever Lurker
“ One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We are no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.“
-Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
I’ve known and met a number of people who’ve done all the Ls. They all raved about them at the time but within a short period after finishing their “high” subsided and they withdrew somewhat from talking about their gains and sort of became personally reticent. I think they realized & withheld the fact that they were still themselves with their everyday problems like the rest of humanity. The charade people play with doing expensive Scioland processes all end up the same way, ie with no gains over life they didn’t already have but have now been conditioned to give everything to Scientology because the next process will always “set them free” or handle what they have always wanted handled. The hamster wheel of mind numbing stupidity. The Church of Vomit seems an appropriate description of what you get out of Scientology and the Ls are the carroty bits..
“The hamster wheel of mind numbing stupidity.”
I’m writing that one down. I may use it sometime. It would make a great title for ScnTV game show. Too bad Chuck Barris is no longer alive. He’d be perfect as producer and host.
But…but, what about the Ks or the Ms? It just doesn’t seem fair.
Let’s just say that I AM a “NATURAL CLEAR”….
Common Sense told be COS was a SCAM so I stayed CLEAR of it.
LOL!!! You’re a NATURAL CLEAR alright.
I applaud your wonderful sense of humor and especially your ability to sum things up in just a few words and deliver a powerful message – all the while making it look as simple as pie.
I’ve been trying for years to learn how to come close to that and I’ve never once come close to being able to do that.
I wish I had access to some emojii for “applause”. If I did, I’d give you a bunch.
Hmmm … there was a song one time sung by Harry Belafonte. The opening line was “Gotta jump down spin around pick a bale of cotton”.
Seems to me that may come close. After all, it’s short and concise and to the point.
The dwarf is short after all.
?????
Here is a few helping hands, Skylar.
Thank you my dear Skyler….I thoroughly enjoy your posts & find them quite insightful!
Sometimes I do go on and on….that’s when I reach the boiling point of anger with all the nastiness that is metered out to those who BLOW….to think that “they” have the right to harass someone for leaving a so called “religion” that they’ve come to disagree with. A person has the RIGHT to CHOOSE to remain a part of a religion or leave it.
The MOST sickening part is the disconnection policy which according to “them”…doesn’t exist. Many on this blog will state quite loudly the disconnection policy DOES EXIST & is still in full force today.
Far too many broken hearts over disconnection, shunning, disassociation policies with ANY religion. WHY do they HAVE this in place…those religions FEAR the LOSS of additional members who might find the TRUTH about the religion they’re currently in & leave as well.
Where the hell does one even start commenting on this. I guess that I’ll give it a shot by expanding on what Mike said: “Hubbard made a LOT of money selling these things, promising “stable exteriorization” — though not a single person EVER has accomplished this “end phenomena.” Not one. Not ever.”
This statement is irrefutable. But also, there is no ‘Clear’ and no ‘OT’. Not a single one though thousands of oversized certificates have been handed out indicating the marks have truly attained these sublime states of being. If someone can show me these states have been attained by a scientologist (or ex-scientologist, freezoneer, indie, squirrel or FOOL) I’ll gladly cut them a check to pay for their L-12 ‘rundown’.
As for Hubbard’s multiple viewpoint management system, I call bullshit. Exhibit ‘A’: the church of scientology or any of it’s many related entities and shadowy front groups. How well is that multiple viewpoint management system working for you.? And I’m talking to you OSA net nannies reading this. The fact is, ANY facet of any scientology management system is a total failure. Once again, if someone can demonstrate that I’m wrong here I’ll gladly cut that check for their L-12 ‘rundown’. scientology couldn’t manage itself out of a wet paper bag. Why does it appear to be doing so well with billions in assets and empty real estate? IT’S A CON PEOPLE! Nothing more. A world class con. In scientology it’s all about the money and only about the money.
Back to the “spiritual” side of things the cult is trying to peddle. Mike sez: “Exterior DOES mean operating outside your body, no matter how these people try to dance around and redefine it.” Some FOOL is sure to come around and claim that Mike and the rest of us who can actually read and understand the written word have a ‘crashing misunderstood word’ or ‘MU’ in cult-speak. Apparently only those who have studied Hubbard’s drivel extensively and are able to apply it can think laterally (twisted thinking to try to make sense of this sacred KSW tainted nonsense) and “know” that exterior is really something else. For those who really want to reliably experience what it is like to be exterior I suggest bypassing your local cult (and the ever present reg) and just take a sufficient quantity of psilocybin mushrooms. There WILL be exteriorization but I can’t guarantee what your experience will be like. And it won’t be stable either. I can guarantee that you will save one hell of a lot of money and if done responsibly your life will be WAY better after the experience than having been tangled up in a mind-fucking cult and con job like scientology.
I dont think there are Net Nannies any more. I bet DM reads all this himself 🙂
Haha Chief Lab Rat, I have had both L11 and L12 and I am indeed Nietzsche’s Uebermensch!
Fascinating.
So how do YOU explain that you are not stably exterior with full perception?
You don’t want to be? But can be at will?
No “parlor tricks” for you eh?
Well, firstly I am stably exterior – quite comfortably sitting astride of and behind my head – best and easiest vantage point to control a body – why be up the on ceiling, or up one’s butt as some are? As to others flying around the room etc. some may well have achieved this. Actually your article does not disprove this as a factor as you simply assume that this is not or has not occurred. If you look at the (new) Church EP of Solo NOTs of “Able to do the OT Levels” this may explain why some cannot exteriorize easily (i.e the NOTs case) which Hubbard didn’t know about in 71. Some did, some didn’t.
As to parlor tricks I have told you many times that as an old OT7 this was quite achievable but I don’t want to scare the MEST beings who are busy blowing their own trumpets, eh bnxtram?
And your whole story line is one of the mealy-mouthed guest after having feasted on a magnificent 15 course banquet saying that the desert was a trifle too tart.
And if some good auditor offered you L11 and L12 what would you say then? No thanks?
Another foolish comment.
The “NOTs case” Hubbard didn’t know about in 71 are the same BTs and Clusters he announced in 67 with OT III. There is no requirement to be free of BTs to do the L’s. So BTs cannot be an excuse for failure.
Really indicates you know nothing about the L’s and this is probably another of your “acceptable truths” and you never did an L at all.
We were talking about exteriorization as regards the Ls and no the III BTs are not the same as the NOTs BTs. Really indicates you know nothing about the technology and can’t put 2 and 2 together.
Like your cobber Leah who also has MisUs on OTIII seems you also never grasped the overall concept.
You are now saying there are different “kinds” of BT’s? The III kind and the NOT’s kind?
The 3 kind were created by Xenu in Incident 2 75 million years ago — when were the “NOT’s BT’s” created?
You have lost it completely Fool.
Do you know Hubbard had directed that people skip straight from OT II to OT III, that his “faster” “Valence Technique” was a new breakthough that circumvented the need to run BT’s through Incident 2 in order to blow them off.
Why assert such provably false things?
So you think that all BTs were created in the OTIII incident eh? And that OT2 can be skipped? So why didn’t Hubbard just cancel OT2 and OT3 then if such is really the case? Therein lies the answer to your miscomprehension. It’s not really worth arguing with such lack of knowledge
As to your little story about OT2 and OT3 you are getting the respective Drug Rundowns mixed up – the NOTs DRD and OTIV. “Skipping OT2 ” indeed! next you will be saying that Solo NOTs is all one’s imagination! Or did you say that already?
I didn’t say to skip OT II, I said to skip from OT II to OT III but I understand why that confused you because it was a typo and should have said skip from OT II to NOTs technique because the Valence technique was faster and better.
Praybtell oh wise one where I find the Source material about your “NOTs” BTs. I am fascinated as I had to study every transcript of every discussion with Mayo and the compilation proposals on NOTs issues for the IP case brought against him to prove he was not the author. I don’t recall this ever being mentioned. But as I only have the power of an SP and not real OT like you, I could be forgetting something.
You certainly don’t want to be in violation of such a fundamental Hubbard idea of never giving verbal tech right?
I said this was a foolish lie and your brilliant comeback was “so you think all BTs were created in the OT III incident” which is exactly what I said and you didn’t respond to. You are comical at times.
So, how about it. What does Hubbard say is the cause of NOTs BTs? You asserted this to be the case now. But just assert it with no support.
Don’t go quiet again due to “being busy” — this is a very important point.
Foolproof, you are full of it.
You will not, as all OTs will not, submit to a scientific test for you exterior.
But you will deflect and squirm your way out of a test as all believers do.
Science is a rigorous testing. Belief is not.
Mr. Fool, I have to say that I am completely disappointed with your answer. That is just about the most out-KSW thing I have ever heard you utter. I think you are being a bit tongue and cheek here but still… You should NEVER compare the lofty results that are to be gotten by standard application of the Tech to a 19th century wog philosopher’s ideal. NEVER! Instead you should stick to some of the fine examples Mr. Hubbard presented like Sonia Bianca for instance. She was a stellar example of how the early Tech was able to produce super human results merely using Book 1. It has only gotten better since those glorious early years of Bridge building.
Ms. B. Haven Chief Lab Rat I/C
Rather a lame reply for a Chief Lab rat!
Ya, it was a somewhat lame reply. But, let’s just cut to the chase. Are you going to take me up on my offer? From your replies, it seems you need to get L-10 under your belt. I have received a bit of an inheritance recently and popping for your Flag only auditing (I’ll even throw in accommodations – but not the pre-qualification sec checks you’ll surely need) will not be a financial burden for me. As you provide evidence that you are stably exterior you won’t have to worry about upsetting this MEST being. My ‘havingness’ is up to the task. I know that scientologists are wary of showing evidence of their abilities. The uninitiated are not supposed to have hidden standards and all. But, I’ve got them. I want proof. Why? scientology is an APPLIED philosophy not based on belief. Applied implies results. You know, something that actually works not just something that is believed in. So, there you have it. I’ve got the money if you’ve got the proof of ANY ‘OT’ abilities the rest of us little beings don’t have.
Ms. B. Haven – Chief Lab Rat I/C
Not L10 Fool? The CORRECT sequence is, L11, L10 THEN L12. FSO didn’t C/S L12 BEFORE L10. Wow, a squirrel. But then again you claim knowledge of the subject that you never had.
Nonsense.
I agree. Your assertion that you did those levels at FSO is nonsense.
FOOL proof scribbled:
“Haha Chief Lab Rat, I have had both L11 and L12 and I am indeed Nietzsche’s Uebermensch!”
If what I’ve been seeing is an IMPROVEMENT over what you once were, I’d HATE to experience what you would be like “unimproved”.
Of course, you MIGHT have been literate at one time before Tubby’s grand mindfcuk.
Ms. B. Haven
Bravo…..Just Bravo!
Kat
I know for a fact exteriorization is possible. I’ve done it many times both before getting into the cult and afterwards. I wanted to perfect that ability and that carrot was always dangled from a stick by registrars and others trying to sell me more services. I’d been at it for 25 years when the Ls came out. Thankfully didn’t fall for it by then. Price was a huge part. But mostly I’d already begun to see that no results were ever happening and finally walked out. I am happy to attest now to the fact of being stably exterior to the cult!!! 🙂
Whoa! You’re stably exterior to the cult alright! Don’t let that power go to your head!
Mike,
I have to take issue with this.
As William James covered extensively in his landmark work, “The Varieties of Religious Experience”, spiritual experiences tend to be subjective in nature.
I don’t understand how you can state so categorically that no one has ever achieved stable exteriorization on the Ls— any more than the people who claim it can prove they have.
I do understand the objective negatives that many have experienced in the Miscavige version over the past several decades— bankruptcy, divorce, even cancer— and have witnessed these for myself.
But I saw no such reactions to the original Hubbard version in the early 70s. On the contrary, the people I knew who received it, almost one for one, seemed to experience genuine and lasting gains, including exteriorization. How real these phenomena were or weren’t, no one can say— including you or me.
I would say that after 50 years of requiring people to provide “success stories” that not a single one has said “I am STABLY exterior with full perception” is pretty compelling evidence.
The problem with this claim is that it promises something that CAN be objectively tested. Just like Clears don’t get colds.
IF you are truly stably exterior with full perception you could test this quite simply. “What am I holding behind my back?”
Thank you Mike for using critical thinking skills. Stable exterior with full perception is very easy to debunk.
And that is the final test. It would be easy to test stable exterior.
I also believe I am a soul and not a body and that the soul is separable from the body.
But that is not Hubbard’s claim: that exteriorization is a possibility.
His claim: this process delivers stable exterior, which means at WILL.
There is a logical fallacy that says when we criticize Hubbard we are criticizing and doubting the entire subject of the spiritual experience.
That is false. What we are criticizing is false claims otherwise known as lies.
Totally agree.
I’ve never done the OT levels and I’m not even Clear but I’ve been exterior. I know what it is. It happened to me twice, quite unexpectedly. Not during auditing or any Scientology activity, though. Nice though. Felt good. Its hard to describe. Didn’t last long, each time. I wanted it to last and tried to “hold onto it” but as soon I tried to hold onto it I wasn’t exterior any more. Those were my experiences. I can understand why someone would acquire as a goal being “stably” exterior. Because it was nice while it lasted. The best I can describe it was that, during those 2 brief times, each of which came upon me out of the blue, with no preparation nor any expectation of it, I experienced a kind of knowing that I was…me. And my body was there, and I was looking at it, but it wasn’t… me. It was this body I had. What I was, was whatever it was that was looking. And I knew that, briefly. See, I told you it was hard to describe! Never mind, it was nice while it lasted.
Oh, one more thing I recall about twice being exterior; when I said that it was “nice” That doesn’t say much. I could say it was a “calm” feeling, a “peaceful” feeling – but that sounds like euphoria, and it wasn’t euphoria. So here goes: It was a quiet calm, a grounded calm, a calm that had a quiet non verbal kind of certainty imbedded in it that – let me see- if I could translate the non-verbal into verbal would be something like, “There’s nothing wrong, there’s never been anything wrong, and there never will be anything wrong..” Something like that. Serenity? Hmm…better stop now. Me and my words. Maybe I should have just left it at “nice” 🙂
Hi Aqua,
Nice..
I had very similar experiences , twice, outside of anything done in scn.
I didn’t even have enough time to fully grok it though before I was back in the body.
Many have claimed to have gone exterior from the body but not with stability. Hubbard was the first, as far as I know, to say it was possible to achieve it with stability using his tech which was why I signed up. If the exteriorization is not stable, it is not possible to “prove it” to anyone. In my experience, Grades I-IV, Clear, L Rundowns, OTI-0TV didn’t help. It was not a “Hidden Standard” and I voiced my disappointment only at the examiner. I was not CS’d to get this handled.
I thought debunking is when you rolled out of bed.
OSD! ? Made my day!
AAAwww Geee Mike….I am STILL WAITING for the very FIRST replacement MEAT BODY to step forward & tell us about their “previous life” within the realm of COS.
What was their previous name?
Who were their parents & siblings?
Where did they live in their previous life?
Where did they take their COS training?
What training level did they achieve?
DECADES have gone by….yet NOT ONE PERSON has stepped up to the plate to say that they are “in a new meat body”….WTF??? Are you kidding me? All that money & time spent training to achieve the highest level of “the bridge” & willingly disconnecting from one’s own family & friends because that’s required……or yeah, & add to that there’s that “abortion thing”…..NOTHING to show for it…STILL NOT CLEAR????
Golly Gee…If they can’t remember ANY of their previous life…just how are they to CLAIM the money that’s being held “in trust” for them to continue their training in this new meat body if they can’t remember anything about their PAST LIFE?
“I don’t understand how you can state so categorically that no one has ever achieved stable exteriorization on the Ls”
It is REALLY simple. In ALL of Scamology history, NOT A SINGLE PERSON, WHEN ASKED, HAS EVER BEEN ABLE TO DEMONSTRATE THAT ABILITY. BTW, STABLE means unchanging. THEREFORE, no mater when they did L-12 they would STILL be able “do it”.
A group I started 50 years ago makes its members able to fly around at supersonic speed with no mechanical aid. How can you claim that is categorically false?
EXTRAORDINARY CLAIMS REQUIRE EXTRAORDINARY EVIDENCE.
One can also apply LOGIC, which acts on scamology like water did to the wicked witch of the West. Occam’s razor.
I still remember the Ls’ materials while cramming the Class XII auditors. These were bound in a plastic cover and contained handwritten LRH C/Ss that provided his own C/Sing while piloting the Ls at the ship.
These handwritten sessions and LRH C/Sing of them provided many aspects of this Ls’ technology. Yes, there were also a few HCOBs and even Board Tech Bulletins (BTBs), which for some reason were studied, delivered and kept as valid for the Ls.
Believe me, the ‘original’ Class XIIs were crammed for a minor departure and their standard was kept because they studied and worked hard at it. Besides, they were good people, well intentioned and did care for the public.
A Class XII needed to train on Power, Class VIII of course and eventually the Ls. Miscavage has since decided to quickly train 50 “new” Class XIIs skipping Power, Class VIII and God know what else. To attain the results under these quick conditions is not possible.
But as you pointed out Mike, Ls = $ in the greedy eyes of the sociopath miscabage.
“To attain the results under these quick conditions is not possible. ”
Silvia, to obtain the results El Tard laid was NEVER possible and never happened.
SILVIA stated, in part:
“A Class XII needed to train on Power, Class VIII of course and eventually the Ls. Miscavage has since decided to quickly train 50 “new” Class XIIs skipping Power, Class VIII and God know what else. To attain the results under these quick conditions is not possible.”
There can’t even be true Class Vs and VIs, since Dwarfenführer simply eliminated the SHSBC. I believe that much of his ‘reasoning’ came from his OWs, including his being the ONLY ‘auditor’ I’ve heard of who punched out his (female)PC … IN SESSION, during his Class IV internship. What a MAROON!
The Ls: the most hyped-up processes at Flag and the most expensive services at an expen$ive place. I had a small bit of auditing by a Class XII along with as many TRs as I could wrangle and I can say that they really had things all together: TRs were natural, not so confrontational as at the lower training levels, and Tone 40 wasn’t confused with SHOUTING; instead, they’d say in a conversational tone,”This is the session.” and there just wasn’t any room for anything else to be in the picture. All of the aspects of auditing came so naturally to them, as easy as breathing, it seemed. Now, since Dwarfenführer trashed the SHSBC, no VIs can be made, so no VIIIs or above. So WHO is delivering the Ls? Seems like it must be lesser-trained folks who have merely done a read-it, drill-it, Do-it “course” without the other aspects that REAL XIIs absorbed. It seemed they had a hidden data line, and that was somewhat true, inasmuch as it was hidden to those of us who had not done the intervening courses they had sweated through. Yet Dwarfenführer, who had failed his IV internship at St. Hill for punching out his (female) PC in session, took it upon himself to DECLARE David Mayo, the Snr CS INT, for a C/S that drew upon his Class XII training, which Mustsavage will forever be ignorant of, since he doesn’t “do” the standard courses, only browses through bulletins and PLs at random, as the mood strikes him. No wonder Academies have ceased to deliver auditors. No wonder WDAH is no longer a stat of importance to DM’s organization which masquerades as a ‘church’ to escape financial and legal oversight.
Well how would you like auditing when your every move is watched? When you could be RPFed for calling a FN that didnt swing 3x?
Not I.
The fun is all gone. My PC doing well after a session was the greatest reward ever. It’s gone now. Not that I give a f**k but it was more fun then not for a while weather it worked or not PCs had fun and thus were happier and healthier and did better in life. I saw that personally. What changed? KSW and how serious it all became. Whatever – no one should have to depend on anyone or thing to be happy… that’s where it fails.
“My PC doing well after a session was the greatest reward ever.”
Your PCs back then were lucky to have you auditing them Cece.
I did L11 in the ‘90s. It was really expensive and was the only L that I ever did.
I must say that out of the several processes on L11, the first, rather lengthy process remains one of the best experiences I ever had in Scientology. It actually was quite fabulous. Hubbard somehow came up with this and because it is effective, he hoarded it at Flag and doled it out for a LOT of money. It cost 5 times what it was worth IMO, but it certainly was worth something.
That said, I still consider that I’ve graduated Scientology and will never go back, nor would I ever recommend anyone get involved with it at all.
I realize that saying ANYTHING positive about Scientology here or in other blogs is threatening to the world view of some commenters and the usual response is to attack.
I don’t care.
Not everything you did in Scientology sucked, otherwise you wouldn’t have stayed as long as you did, people.
I’m not disagreeing at all with Mike Rinder about the dishonesty about stable exterior on L12 etc.
I’ve seen reports that the L’s were mostly the work of Otto Roos. Others may have been involved as well; and who knows what previous techniques or experiences inspired or contributed to them. Hubbard may have “come up with” things, in the sense of overseeing a sort of amateurish research project, to find what produced apparent results of some sort that kept people coming back for more – as you note.
Eva Berner, wife of Charles, who with her husband were famous for introducing “study tech” said that Hubbard himself came up with almost nothing, it was all the work of others. I’m not sure how much if anything can actually be attributed to Hubbard.
Plenty can be attributed to Hubbard. Plenty.
The real lie is that he did “research” before proclaiming his tech was proven workable.
Mike Rinder opined:
“The real lie is that he did “research” before proclaiming his tech was proven workable.”
IMO, the closest Tubby got to ‘research’ was to pull some new process out of his ample posterior, scribble it down, and say:”Try this. Let’s see what happens.”
“Not everything you did in Scientology sucked, otherwise you wouldn’t have stayed as long as you did, people.”
You’re right. not everything sucked at all. In fact, I loved so much about scn that I stayed in for decades. Almost 40 years.
But had I known the truth, would I have ever entered in the first place?
Had I known that I would get to the top of the bridge and never get any of the real gains promised..would I have spent those decades in?
Would I have spent decades on staff, trying to “clear” a planet, giving up everything the world had to offer, to work my ass for for “stats” and “products”?
Nope.
Not for a second.
If I knew then what I know now, I would have had a different life. My life was stolen by someone who told me lies, knowing they were lies. I was bamboozled out of choice because I believed the lies.
………
Does the fact that I wasn’t writhing in peeled skin agony for those decades… does the fact that I had enjoyment in my certainty…
Does this mean… I have no right to feel the depth of that betrayal?
………..
When I hear or read anything along the lines of how I “must have enjoyed it at the time” “must have gotten SOMETHING out of it, to stay so long”
I envision someone sitting down with Jaycee Dugard … and saying things like that to her…
“well, that creepy old druggie psychopath who imprisoned and raped you for 18 years, well, he gave you TWO children, right? You have 2 beautiful daughters you love, you held them as babies, you got to play with them. You never had to work, you just got to stay at home in the prison backyard tent set up and got to raise your children”
“you must have some happy memories about all THAT..right?”
…
as a recovering UTR ex-Scio, I have enough trouble with “considering myself a victim in any way” … I can’t escape the decades in feeling of Must-Be-Cause, NEVER a victim.
………
I’m listening to Rachel Bernstein’s podcast, “Indoctrination”, up to episode 18 or so. They are blowing my mind, and just the exact thing I need right now.
because being told “”Not everything you did in Scientology sucked, otherwise you wouldn’t have stayed as long as you did, people.” somehow….
doesn’t do a damn thing for my white-knuckle grip on the side of this cliff.
Rip,
Well said. I see you gaining strength with each week. I know that we all feel betrayal when someone or something we loved or trusted turned out to be less than we believed. I know that when something consumed your life for decades, that betrayal is even deeper. Knowing that it wasn’t all ‘bad’ doesn’t make it any easier to take. It doesn’t make the burn go away. You have every right to feel however you feel whether anyone agrees with it or not. No one who truly cares about you will judge you on how you feel about something- they may not agree, but they wont judge.
Kat
I understand the depth of the betrayal Rip. I feel it too. Your feelings are completely valid. I would not have gotten into Scn if I had know how many lies were interwoven.
So let me restate: FOR ME, not everything about Scientology sucked. FOR ME, The first process on L11 was a tremendous experience.
…Thx for understanding.
I don’t know anything about “recovery” or “stages” or … anything about anything at all.. Just trying to make it through whatever is happening along this way…
and yesterday, whilst musing about this during some yard work .. I had a thought and had to laugh at myself.
If there are stages or phases… I may still be in a long long phase of basically just being PISSED OFF that OT and Clear are lies.
I really did get in to have the ability to be exterior with full perception, so that I could have fun and be in control of my eternity. I was SO looking forward to it. I believed in “cleared theta clear” and things like that. I kept hoping for it.
I sacrificed much in this endeavor.
Rachel Bernstein said something that rang very true for me in particular.. she said something along the lines of how “getting out of a cult” and working through the getting out is often HARDER than being IN.
I find that totally true. I LOVED scn. Loved it so much, I loved having the answers, I loved my certainty, I loved my concept of self and the world and who I was and all the lifetimes etc etc.
I had GREAT wins on auditing. Loved the OT levels, loved training, loved holding posts, and all that. (no abilities gained, just wins that fed the confirmation bias) (Dumbo and the magic feather, I think I’m stronger so I act stronger)
All the BS hardship I went through? They were “war stories”. They were always points of pride for having weathered them. (after the wounds healed) I didn’t begrudge all I gave up, because eternity was ahead and I was going to be there with all my abilities. 🙂
..
I plan to someday be able to look back and sort it all out and come to healthy conclusions about it all.
I’m really far away from that right now.
..
but… it’s kind of funny and comforting to me to think that just for now… for this time period…
I think I’m just REALLY ANGRY about it not being real.
I wanted it soooo much.
(for some reason, this makes me feel cheerful)
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
…….
“Hubbard somehow came up with this and because it is effective, ”
Effective at what Doe?
“I realize that saying ANYTHING positive about Scientology here or in other blogs is threatening to the world view of some commenter’s and the usual response is to attack. ”
Really? I have seen mostly people asking for proof of subjective claims and the claimants then spewing illogical responses rather answering straightforward, simple questions. A REAL sign of brainwashing.
But Doe, you wouldn’t do that, right?
Ok Mr. Wynski, I will try to answer your questions.
First: the basic thing Scientology is claiming to sell is a transcendent subjective experience. That is the basic “product” they offer, no matter what level of auditing one is doing. Because it is something that one can only feel, it really exists only in one’s mind.
The first process of L11 was a fabulously transcendent experience for me. But for me, when I did it. Therefore I can not offer you any “proof” that I had such an experience because that experience exists nowhere else but inside my skull.
(Please don’t come back with any tired trope such as “that just proves I’m delusional/crazy or whatever…”)
That said, something like claiming what one will get is exterior with full perceptions, blah blah well THAT is a different story as that is something that COULD be demonstrated. And as Mr. Rinder correctly points out, such has never occurred. It’s a shameful lie, overhyped outright immoral sales pitch to get your money.
Now, let me ask you couple of questions:
Based on comments I have read by you, it seems that you are of the opinion that nothing Hubbard or Scientology ever did produced, wrote etc. has any value whatsoever, and that no one who did auditing or courses in Scientology experienced any kind of genuine valuable experience from it. Is that a correct approximation of your point of you?
Further, it seems that you are of the opinion that anyone that expresses some kind of benefit or value derived from their experience in Scientology is delusional, because if they were not delusional, your assumption above would be wrong. Is that also correct?
You and I know nothing about the other, other than what we have written here in comments. Not a real good sampling by the way.
Just so you know, I am not a delusional person, although I have probably had delusions in the past, it is not my natural operating way. Point in fact, my most recent project recently achieved a world record. And unless you’ve been living in a bunker somewhere, you have heard of it. I was hired for this project, because I am competent, effective, and certainly certainly not delusional. And I get paid a shitload of money to do it.
So how about you and I call a truce? Can you just say “Wow John Doe glad you had a good experience in Scientology. At least on your L11”
And I will say to you, that I respect your opinion that you believe Scientology has no value whatsoever, and I’m sorry that that was your experience.
“First: the basic thing Scientology is claiming to sell is a transcendent subjective experience. ”
Wrong Doe!. The FIRST thing Scamology sells is the Bridge. With LISTED OBJECTIVE ABILITIES PROMISED. NONE OF WHICH HAVE EVER BEEN DELIVERED
That you chose to lie about such an obvious and known item shows that you are perhaps hopelessly brainwashed or are a criminal like Hubtard.
Geez Wynski, I don’t know how to have a conversation with you.
Evidently your cast-in-stone opinion is that everything Scn or Hubbard is 100% wrong, bad or criminal.
That I exist and say anything positive about MY experience (not YOUR experience) you seem to find threatening and lash out. Like you’re trying to shout down or intimidate those that say things that would make your world view wrong.
In order for your math to work, I have to be a lier,
hopelessly brainwashed, or a criminal.
Sorry, but your math ain’t workin’, bud.
You’ve unleashed an Ad Hominem attack which is a weak response to my position, “Hey, there was something I did in Scn that was fabulous.”
I’m sorry you hold such a black and white view of your own and everyone else’s Scientology experiences. It’s a version of No True Scotsman: “No non-lying, non-criminal, non brainwashed person would ever say anything positive about their experiences in Scn.”
But thanks for not saying I’m delusional.
So knock yourself out dude. I’m not spending any more time with you on this thread. Come back another time, and I might be willing to engage if you’ll play nicer here in the sandbox.
Wynski and John Doe,
As usual, I’m a day late and a dollar short…..but I did want to point something out.
What Wynski said is absolutely true – Scientology promises concrete, objective powers. Not ” a transcendent subjective experience”
John Doe, I am willing to concede that you believed Scientology was selling you a subjective experience. However, by characterizing Wynski’s comments as “an ad hominem attack”, you are guilty of what you accuse Wynski of doing.
Wynski was simply stating a fact, not attacking you. It is interesting that you characterize his comments as an attack. Very Hubbardesque (now there is an ad hominem attack!)
Rather than admit Scientology sells a product – which is easily proven, just look at the ‘Bridge to Total Freedom’, you choose to deflect and “attack the attacker” Now where have I heard that before……
And then there is your final sentiment – ‘I’m no longer going to discuss this topic with you because you are not in agreement with me and therefore do not deserve my continued discourse…..’
There’s an old joke that Mussolini got the trains to run on time and hey, the Nazis did build the Autobahn……
If you choose to look at the positives in your Scientology experience, that’s your choice and I don’t think anyone would begrudge you that.
But, in the immortal words of Judge Judy – “Don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining”
Hi Chee Chalker,
Yes, you and Wynski are correct that what scientology sells is an organized series of mental actions to be done on everyone, also known as “THE BRIDGE”. And that each of these steps has stated RESULTS which are highly questionable if anyone actually ever attains them, at least stably.
I am not disputing that. In fact, if you read what I wrote, I only refer to the first process of L11 as what I thought very valuable, and still regard it as such.
RE: scn selling transcendent subjective experience. If you think about it, and look past all the oversell and hype and stated EPs etc., that is the reason just about anyone would go into any session on any level: They want to overcome some problem, hangup, upset, bad feeling etc in their life. That is what people want. They want to get better. You don’t have to agree with that, but just wanted to clarify what I mean.
RE Ad Hominem. This is what Wynski said to me:
“Wrong Doe!. The FIRST thing Scamology sells is the Bridge. With LISTED OBJECTIVE ABILITIES PROMISED. NONE OF WHICH HAVE EVER BEEN DELIVERED
That you chose to lie about such an obvious and known item shows that you are perhaps hopelessly brainwashed or are a criminal like Hubtard.”
So, that kinda feels like an attack at my state of mind, truthfulness, and moral standing doesn’t it? And this is his response to me asking him a couple of questions which he didn’t answer. His response is a logical fallacy, ad hominem. That I called him out on it, IDK call it an ad hominem back if you must.
Further, Wynski states in all caps, “NONE HAVE EVER BEEN DELIVERED”. This is his world view, delivered in shouting insistence that his opinion is fact.
Um…no. Look, I get it about the misleading EPs, the bridge, etc. But what evidence has he or anyone that insists nobody ever achieved any stated EP anywhere on the grade chart at any time in history? Could there have been just one person that achieved being ‘able to communicate with anyone on any subject’?
Look, I am not an apologist for Hubbard or scientology. And yes yes yes, Hubbard overhyped and exaggerated and lied about EPs. But I’ve also had enough of absolutist black and white thinking while involved in scientology to want to put up with it outside of it either.
Wynski seems to need to have it be a fact that 100% of Scientology was bad, a con, criminal, brainwashing, etc. That just isn’t the truth and the evidence of it not being true is that at least one person, me, is saying they had a fabulous experience on one process of L11. It seems to be threatening to him to even admit it.
Now, in contrast to this, here is what you said to me:
“If you choose to look at the positives in your Scientology experience, that’s your choice and I don’t think anyone would begrudge you that.”
Thank you. But I don’t just look at the positives. I try to look at the whole experience and the bullshit and abuse and cult shit FAR outweighs the positives. But there was a baby in all that filthy bathwater and that I will keep.
Unfortunately, there are some that would begrudge me daring to say I found something very valuable that was effective in giving me a fantastic experience. But that’s okay. I know what I experienced and don’t need anyones approval or judgement about what I did or did not experience. I will carry on with living my awesome life.
Lastly, I knew I was touching a third rail by saying I had a positive experience in scientology. Knew that going in.
But thanks for your response and for your comments over the years, and thanks to Wynski as well. We don’t always agree as you know, but respect that he has a point of view and expresses his truth.
“You’ve unleashed an Ad Hominem attack ”
Wrong dipshit. An Ad Hom attack uses insults INSTEAD of proof & facts. I used PROOF & facts. The FUCKING GRADE CHART WHERE OBJECTIVE ABILITIES GAINED are PROMISED.
I used colorful words to describe your mental state NOT to win the debate. My reference to scamology materials that REFUTE your statements won the day.
You don’t even know what ad hom means.
Argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.
I DESTROYED the substance of your argument by proving you lied by showing the scamology docs.
john… you know what I wonder?
I wonder if I could get any wins, knowing what I know now?
I used to just flip out of my chair on FPRD, loved that stuff. Just amazing … FPRD was about my favorite auditing. Trackkie, always a huge blow out at the end… etc.. I got wins off almost anything, I got better and better at “having wins”. (my auditors loved me, I was an “easy PC”)
so now, knowing what I know about the lie of just about everything… could one sit there and get anything out of it?
At this point I can’t even consider holding the cans, it’s part of the PTSD shit that I have going on, but I can talk about it just right now, most days the very idea makes me feel like I’m fire and need to die right now.
…
Do you think .. with what you know now… if you were to sit down with that L11 process.. could it give you that lift? That magic-pow lightness of joy?
Rip,
Thanks for such a heart felt response.
And your insightful question, about if L11 would give me the same lift if I did it today.
To answer, I’d have to say most likely NO.
For me to get what I got out of it required a frame of mind of being ready for that thing at that moment in time at that moment in my life.
Life is like that river that is always there. But day to day you can never get into the same river as you did the day before.
I am done with Scientology. Like you, the idea of holding the cans seems like an abhorrent waste of time.
I’ve graduated from that subject and the place it had in my life for too long.
I encourage others who have left and may feel a bit adrift to play with the idea of having graduated Scientology.
What it can do is create a frame of mind where you can both reject the abuse and the suffering that happened, yet retain those wins or victories that you did have.
The fun and wins you had doing the FPRD were completely valid to you at that time. Perhaps you can re-frame it into a different narrative, of what was occurring to you, rather than Hubbard’s prepackaged explanation of life the universe and everything. You were doing something with your mind in that process which gave you some sort of benefit at that time.
Many years ago, a few months after I completed OT 3, I begin to struggle with with the illogical OT 3 bad science fiction story of what Hubbard said had happened 75 million years ago. My inability to except that story was in direct conflict with my experience of having taken myself in session on it, which had a beneficial results for me. I was trapped in the loop of thinking “this story is utter bullshit yet I experienced something good from doing it” and I spent a good number of months going around and around without being able to resolve it. Ultimately this was the beginning of my exit from the subject entirely.
But I was able to reframe the experience in this way: Somehow, clumsy as it was with the bullshit theory story behind it, when I was doing the process, I was able to fix past identities I had been but then rejected, yet not fully so or fully conscious or it.
It was enough of an answer, whether “right” or not, that allowed me to quit thinking about it.
You will get there Rip. Keep reading broadly, that which interest you.
It’s worth the effort. And it’s great on the other side.
John Doe, Thank you for having the bravery to post a win you had while in the church. Imagine that! A win! So maybe not ALL of it was bad.
You summed it up perfectly when you wrote, “Not everything you did in Scientology sucked, otherwise you wouldn’t have stayed as long as you did, people.”
Thank you Cindy.
jere, who cares how it is now done. It NEVER worked in the first place.
You hit the nail on the head with the phrase ‘it is a great money maker’. The L’s and the Stupor Powerz rundown keep ‘flag’ afloat. They pay for the day to day expenses of Flag and feed the Sea bOrg who work there.
It is all about the money, just throw in false equivalency, a few head fakes and ‘watch me pull a rabbit out of this hat’ and you have $cientology, in all its levels and all its statuses.
El Con Retard said, “STABLY exterior with FULL perception.” EXTERIOR FROM THE BODY. HENCE the qualifier “with FULL perception.”
ANY major new ability that El ‘tard promised in scamology was a LIE. This datum is IRREFUTABLE.
Wynski,
You have a wonderful talent for choosing excellent names for people and things.
“El Con Hubtard”
“Scamatology”
“Scamology”
I believe that you originated all three of those and they are all of them superb.
Sometimes, I get to feeling that some people just deserve recognition but unfortunately, no one chooses to give them that recognition until it’s too late.
Thanks Skyler, when I am talking about violent sociopaths I become inspired. 🙂
Agree Skyler. I love Wynski, and his wonderful nicknames. My favorite commenter hands down.
Gee, what the L’s up with that? Maybe someone should make it a priority and delay yanking his ribbon to show all the world what a fabulous thing of wonder they too can achieve. Interesting. I’d pay a quarter to see that at the carney show.
It always amazes me how the disconnection between the “courses” and Miscavige remains “secret”. How can he know and discuss that he is basically committing fraud while selling people “courses” and remain in that position of power? Why does no one in Scientology let others know what is going on? Are they that cowed?? He is a tyrant, yes, but he admits to what he’s doing sometimes and you would think someone in there would go “wait a minute. That’s not what Hubbard would say/do/etc. “
If it is supposed to be about Hubbard’s “teaching” wouldn’t they be obligated to blow the whistle on Miscavige? I guess scientology isn’t about Hubbard so much anymore- it’s about making money and playing monopoly. As long as the true motives remain hidden, it will keep lurching along.
Kat wondered:
“Why does no one in Scientology let others know what is going on? Are they that cowed?? ”
In a word, “YES!” All have witnessed what happens when anyone crosses Dwarfenführer in any way. As an example, there is Shelly finally completing several of his long-standing incomplete cycles. Instead of flowers, as any proper husband would deliver she was delivered to a virtual Siberia for what?, a dozen years, so far? Hey Davey-boy! When was the last time you got properly laid? By your actual WIFE? She’s still alive, I presume, as news of her demise would likely leak out almost immediately, as sievelike as scientology’s operational security has proven lately.
Kat,
You blow the whistle on Davy and you get tossed in the Hole. And there you stay unless and until you change and bow to the little MFer.
Glenn
You mean Corn-On-The COB?
You are correct Kat. The LRH term for actions like this is Squirrel, Squirreling, he is a Squirrel etc.
Perhaps no one does anything because they ‘know’ somehow it will be taken care of by karma, pulled it in, vacuum for trouble etc.
I thought he was a Squirrel when basics came out and I researched the earlier publications and afaik LRH never asked for the revisions. That was 2007. What could one do? Not support him.
Notice he is losing support with crew and public dwindling. You’ve pointed out just one reason of many.
You will never be able to understand why the “ins” will never leave, or notify the police, or inform other Scientologists about the squirrelling of the tech by miscavige unless you have been in long enough to have been thoroughly brainwashed.
Kat LaRue asked, “Are they that cowed?”
I believe there is only one good answer to that question.
“Mooooo!”
Only reason I came into Scientology and put up with the heavy handedness, money sucking and conspiracy theories is that the idea of leaving my body looked appealing.
After L10,11,12 i had paid somuch that i briefly imagined “I was big” to justify my investment.
Of the 100 or so OT’s I met nobody ever talked about exterior in the L’s waiting room.Only registrars talking to dupes did that.Wanting to be right by seeing what you believe instead of believing what you see is a very expensive habit.
Inow reached the EP of scientology:I now smell bs from miles away.
What you describe is called confirmation biased. Its rampant amoungst human beans. ?
You experience what you believe is so true. That means you filter reality based on your beliefs, which is how so many people are hard core Scn’s and claim extraordinary powers even though they can’t demonstrate any to anyone except to themselves in their own minds. That also explains all religions and their resulting fanatisms.
It’s also the trap! LRH used this to a great advantage. He changed belief systems through his courses and books and hopes even though it’s all bs.
Interesting, XS … when I got Op pro by dupe, the acceptable ep at the time was ext … and I too said there was a time I felt a bit “bigger” than my body … Kind of BS … Would have been worth everything to have completely moved OUT of the body with certainty …but …