OK – forget about clearing the Confederacy for now. Let’s just focus on Clearing the planet. Or any entity. And let’s use the best case scenario they have to offer. The one they talk about most. The idealiest of all orgs that was taken over by 200 of the elite of the planet cause over everything SO members.
This is their latest promo piece boasting of their stupendously epic milestone achievements. Well, let’s do some math.
Taking what they say as true (highly unlikely) and granting them that every “NED Case Completion” went on to become Clear (also highly unlikely), this, the biggest, baddest, idealiest, model, double SH Size org has produced 360 clears in 2 years. This magnificent achievement is apparently cause for celebration.
360 in 104 weeks is a bit less than 3.5 per week.
Given there are 3 other “ideal orgs” in the greater LA Area (Inglewood, Orange County and Pasadena) but none of them (as they admit) is even close to the size of old SH and LA Org is more than twice the size of old SH (as they proclaim, often) we can assume LA Org is carrying almost the full burden of clearing the Greater LA area.
But let us humor them and assume that each of those orgs AND Valley were ALL SH Size (ie each was half as big as LA Org) so they accomplished the full complement of ideal orgs in the LA Area (the stated goal now for years and years – implying that all will then be well), this would mean 4 (orgs) x 3.5 (clears per week) x 0.5 (half double SH size) = 7. Add that to the 3.5 and adjusting for rounding errors it comes to 10 per week.
10 clears a week for the Greater LA area with 4 SH Size ideal Orgs and one double SH Size ideal org.
This is far more than ANY city in the world. Far more than any other State in the US. More than any other COUNTRY in the world.
And how would this accomplish “Clearing LA” (let alone the planet)?
The population of Greater LA is currently 18.7 million. At 10 per week it would take 1.87 million weeks to “Clear LA” – just a few years short of 36,000 years. To put this into perspective, recorded human history, back to Sumerian times is about 5,000 years. The Dark Ages were not even 1,000 years ago.
And this is not even taking into account that there are 200,000 new births in the GLA area per year. So, it will not really take 36,000 years, it will take FOREVER. Literally. Only once the live birth rate is surpassed will there be a greater percentage of the population clear in each subsequent year.
But hell yes, these people are convinced they ARE Clearing LA. Actually the Planet. No, the Confederacy! Woohoo.
Let’s not forget, this is the accomplishment of 200 imported Sea Org members. They have enough Sea Org members, if they closed everything else down except the Advanced Orgs, Flag and Freewinds (including shuttering the largest digital printing facilities on earth, the stat-of-the-art central dissemination facility, Gold, SuMP and all the CST vaults) to do about 10 of these “model” ideal orgs.
That would be 35 clears a week PLANET WIDE.
Yet, you see things like this:
This “foundation” is not just made of sand. It is made of invisible sand.
Delusion, thy name is Co$. Well, let them live comfortably deluded for as long as possible because its going to be rough all around for them once the are exposed in such a fashion that it will be impossible for them to twist and turn away, impossible for them to explain, excuse and spin the inconvenient truths. Poor devils.
This is what I think happened.They called everyone they could get a hold of who was still alive and who even wanted to talk to them.
Since the state of clear does not exist they miraculously found the person clear and then congratulated themselves for amazing efficiency.
The real number if you can have a real number for something that does not exist is closer to 10 dianetic case completions in two years.These are the few people that got in and in the last 2 years..Just a guess.
It’s really sad that the only thing they are clearing are themselves. Clearing themselves right out of business.
36,000 years is not a long time when you consider eternity. Nevertheless and by way of shutting the mouths of Scientology haters and bigots, COB has made an irrevocable promise that Los Angeles will be cleared in 29,000 years.
I must correct you on this. I’m well aware of the Hole Briefing you attended on August 3rd. However, my conversation with him took place on September 5th where he specifically told me it would be 29,123 years. I just want to make sure all reports coming from Dave are accurate.
29,000 years to Clear Los Angeles is a very stiff target, but really, all they have to do is cut out the bowling on Wednesday nights and other distractions while applying “The Supreme Test” for blood this time and they just might make it.
An impossible target Aqua, as it’s a subjective one – like making the people of Cincinnati happy or getting the world to love my singing. Bottom line, it can’t be quantified. To complicate matters, the definition has changed over the years and no doubt means different things to different people. Dave’s real target is probably more along the lines of increasing his assets to five billion and keeping those fools chasing rainbow colored butterflies.
Mephisto, I totally agree with you. In that comment I was being “tongue in cheek”. Also agreed on what the Dwarf’s real target. Mike has explained how money extracted from the Sheeple is His index of his actual power – and the more unwilling they are to give it to give it is the more power He considers He has.
Since Clear is a made up term for a made up condition why not just say, “Mission Accomplished” and shut down the whole operation? Divvy up the loot and retire.
(For those into RPGs or CRPGs, level up and start a new scam)
Clear is widely misunderstood due to how LRH changed the definition over the years as he found out more and more about what makes a person unclear. Per the definition used in the late 70’s clear is something very specific, necessary, and real. But it doesn’t mean “no aberration remaining,” despite the impression given in DMSMH.
My 2 Cents, only the terminally deluded Ron Bots believe it (clear) or the “reactive mind” exists.
Wynski, what is your background in Scientology?
Did you ever get any auditing? If so, how far did you get on the Grade Chart?
Did you get any auditor training? If so, to what level? Ever audit anyone?
What is your rational argument for the reactive mind not existing?
For clear not existing? What do you think a clear is, anyway?
No smart bat-back non-answers,please.
OMG, I laughed a lot when I read, “For clear not existing? What do you think a clear is, anyway?”
Keep it up. You DEFINITELY are scaring away any sane person from EVER thinking of trying scamology.
People, this is an example of one’s mind on Scientology.
Wynski, I noticed that you didn’t answer any of my questions. As usual you just made a wise-ass, bat-back comment devoid of any actual reasoning. You are an operative.
Hi 2 Cents,
I’ll jump into the debate, if I may…..
Why is it incumbent on others to prove LRH wrong? (i.e. there is no reactive mind, there is no such state as ‘Clear’)
LRH made the claim that these things existed. That he discovered this with his ‘research ‘
LRH was the one who made the claims about the abilities of a Clear.
Let LRH prove those things. Show us the research.
Or, in the famous words of Jason Beghe, show us a mother fudging Clear.
Make Clears available for independent testing.
If you can’t do these things, then just sit back and claim it is a matter of faith.
And that’s fine. Lots of faiths are not determined to prove their beliefs. Just don’t claim that something exists because someone else can’t prove it doesn’t.
I can’t prove my dog doesn’t speak fluent French. That doesn’t make it true.
It’s valid to ask for evidence that clear exists. But it’s an entirely different matter to assert that it doesn’t exist, and to ridicule those who have observed themselves to be clear. It’s the difference between a rational search for truth and a sub-rational attack on something the attacker doesn’t understand. How would you like it if someone told you that your gains in awareness from whatever technique you’d used were just delusion?
I’m ill at ease with the long history of Scientology lawyers who I believe have “won”.
From the first moments I read the legal statement in my intro Scientology “Problems of Work” book in 1975, when I first opened the book, noticed the legal statement that only by dedicated following the closely required steps would I get the spiritual gains Scientology has to offer, to me, LAWYERS were covering Scientology’s ass for Scientology.
Today, “Clears” are still a prime example of the spiritual gains that Scientology’s lawyers are bolstering in human history with the legal backing lawyers give to Scientology.
There is hugely, in life on earth, NO reckoning with the lawyers who have LONG backed Scientology’s right to promise “Clear” and “OT” spiritual benefits.
Especially since NO “Clears” and “OTs” come out of Scientology.
Just legally protected promises of spiritual gains.
That to me is more troubling in human history.
Lawyers protect the rights of groups to falsely promise “Clear” and “OT” and lawyers thus tacitly support this physical historical group of Scientologists who get away with this.
It’s wrong, and all lawyers who have ever made a dime from Scientology’s dupes’ money I hold in the lowest esteem.
Were “Clears” and “OTs” real, it’d be a different world and lawyers supporting Scientology selling “Clear” and “OT” would be morally good.
Scientology/Hubbard have overstretched the legal support Scientology’s dupes’ have paid for.
It’s not good.
Scientology requires continual exposure until either some “Clears” and “OTs” are really made.
It’s all faked “Clears” and “OTs” today.
Scientology is a machine that blames the inevitably failing members who either admit their own dedicated failures, or they stay on board and continue faking “Clear” and “OT.”
Perfect for lawyers who believe the Hubbard promise. Only thing, the Lawrence Wright book and HBO documentary give the new still unappreciated news that Hubbard in the end of Hubbard’s life even admitted that Hubbard had failed.
What’s that say for the lawyers who’ve approved the legal statements at the beginning of all the Scientology books?
Lawyers for Scientology have to admit that Hubbard admitted failure.
Hubbard admitted failing at Hubbard’s own “body thetan” exorcism.
All lawyers for Scientology have to digest Hubbard’s end of life admissions!
“The Washington Spectator” October 1, 2016, p. 5, Lou Dubose, editor, writes: “….There is an old lawyer’s adage: ‘If the law is on your side, pound them with the law. If the facts are on your side, pound the facts. When neither is on your side, pound the table.’ ”
I’ve so been sad and disappointed today thinking of Scientology’s decades of lawyers’ contribution to Scientology’s continued existence.
At least public word of mouth is conclusively against Scientology, and media is doing some justice against Scientology.
Media thankfully pounds the facts, against Scientology’s lawyers’ table pounding.
Thank you Chuck. Now I know why Hillary pounds the podium so much when she is speaking. lol
Good points chuck.
Lawyers represent both sides of every argument, yet they’re always “right”.
There must be something in their training that makes it possible to turn a blind eye to the client’s misdeeds, no matter what.
It’s kind of like what you see with armies. Almost every army on this planet has a motto like, “God is on OUR side” or “God is with US”.
God sure gets around hey?
So do football teams. What the world needs is a lot more football teams and leagues and spectators.
Interesting remark about God being on “our side”. During WWII the German soldiers had “Gott Mitt Uns” etched on their belt buckles. God’s response to that prayer was apparently, “Hmmm, not exactly….”
http://scholarworks.gsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1011&context=english_hontheses
Lawyers are taught their clients deserve a zealous advocate. You don’t have to believe your client is innocent. You just have to do the best job you can in representing their interests.
I’m curious, Chuck. How was it possible for you to use “lawyer” and “esteem” in the same sentence?
Since lawyers play such an important role in Scientology, I’d like to know what planet they come from.
Is it a better planet than Farsec?
The threshold that Scientology has to meet to have a greater proportion of the population be Scientologists is a lot lower at first than the live birth rate (about 5% of the population of Los Angeles) or even total population growth from all sources, which includes people moving to the area. All that is necessary is that the growth rate of Scientology be greater than the population growth. If you have a thousand Scientologists and you train 100 (10% growth),, you now have a greater percentage of Scientologists in the population
Consider two functions that are monotonically increasing. with function two having a higher rate of increase than function one. A monotonically increasing function is just a function that has an ever-increasing value, like the population of Earth at the current time. Even though function two has a much smaller value than function one currently, it will catch up over time because its growth rate is higher. It is also an unsound assumption to presume that growth rates will persist for decades or centuries.
The current population of Los Angeles is 3.8 million. There is some value n at which 3.8 million X (1.05 raised to the nth power) will be equal to 1000 rimes (1.1 raised to the nth power). What this does point out is the difficulty of maintaining high growth rates for centuries..If the 5% above population growth rate can be maintained, it will take 177 years to clear Los Angeles. It’s worth noting that in year 177, they will have to train 1,928,024 Scientologists, about half the current population of Los Angeles. The number of years will vary slightly depending on the number of Scientologists with which one begins, but the argument will be the same.
Your formulas are correct but it s the old GIGO principle. As you point out the difficulty is in maintaining an average growth rate year over year whereas we keep seeing a serious shrink rate hidden as best possible by DM and Co. We can t base predictions of this type based on isolated incidents of one org or missions here and there. OC abt 15 years ago had gone SH on a fantastic spurt but Mgt managed (no pun intended) to screw that up by of course just having to meddle and violate the upper condition formulas, which, while not perfect, provide reasonable guidance if you just apply them with some common sense. Same isolated spurts here and there just have not maintained a 10% inrease per year over large areas, more like a -10% per year which of course goes nowhere.
In 1980 when I was still a young Scientologist, if someone had told me that 36 years later there would still be only one Class IV Org and 3 or 4 missions in the San Fernando Valley, I would have written some serious KR on the guy so Ethics would straighten this imbecile out.
And yet, here we are 35 years later indeed . . .
Regardless of your beliefs, certainties or uncertainties, expansion was occurring then, we had to rent extra building spaces across the street. Interestingly, yes, someone was indeed actively creating havoc and squashing things down, regardless of whether it was inherent poison pills in the tech or all DM’s fault.
I live in a small backwater town in the middle of nowhere. If all the clears and NED Case completions made in the past two years at the model ideal org of LA lived here, they wouldn’t even outnumber the number of players on the little league baseball teams in a 20 square mile radius. How is that a stat?
The foundation of Planetary Clearing is sitting on the back of a giant tortoise. And what is the tortoise standing on, you might ask. To which I answer, don’t try to get clever with me; it’s turtles all the way down!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down
If I say you’re Clear – you’re Clear, you mfcs! Now go attest!
I don’t see that people would have a problem with that. Better than any other tech… works every time for the really big beings and that’s all that counts.There’s a new completed pilot called “Finger Declared Clears” FDCs. Finger Declares (FDSPs) worked so well for clearing out all the maleficence in the Orgs it was recently discovered by COB it works brilliantly for Clearing people as well. Fancy that… the solution to Planetary Clearing was on the fingertips of eternity the whole time!
Go forth and spread the good news, don’t sit on it. Pull your finger out and get to work, there’s a planet to Clear!
What are they going to do when the stats drop to practically nothing?
No, wait, they already have. Even when you add in the puffy stat lies.
I guess the only thing that will bring about the ultimate demise of the Cult of Deception is when the oldies who are too brainwashed to think, and rich boys like Tom Cruise, die off or wake up.
That might take another 10 years. Or more. But, surely as the sun rises……….
The funny thing is, the Co$ as a group is so guilty of exaggeration and false stats that I instantly “assume” that the actual number, honestly represented, is 1/2 to 1/4 of what’s reported. Maybe even 47 times lower.
Probably a huge push to clean up backlogs so they have more people to put on the train to the Gulag in Clearwater
I was at the LA org for two weeks in 1990 getting services and was recruited heavily to join staff . I recall one young girl saying they were trying to clear LA. I gather that isn’t working out to well?
That’s another thing, Doug, why the big push to get people to join staff when no new people are coming in? I mean, seriously, is this a case of ‘misery loves company.’
Actually they seemed pretty busy the two weeks I was there in 1990. There were always people coming and going from the big blue building and the AO building. I will never forget someone with a sticker on the back of their car that read “Psychiatrists do it with rats.”
I drove by there in 2007 and there did not appear to be much activity going on. The next time I am in LA I can’t wait to drive by there and see how it looks..
“Psychiatrists do it with rats.” What……play chess?
Think outside the box Dude. U know the term, “I don’t give a rat’s ass.” Think about it…
I’ll stick with chess…
Psychiatrists are more rat-ional.
It was pretty busy in 1990. Scientology has been shrinking ever since – it’s pretty dead around there now.
Remember how hard it was to get a parking spot in the lot back then? Now, even though it’s been partially landscaped so there are fewer parking places, it’s easy to find one. Of course, there’s no more BC, no more Class VIII course… ASHO’s and LA Org’s Day and FDN orgs have merged… the Fatman would piss himself if he came back and saw how far down it’s come.
Meanwhile, I’m amusing myself imagining how He Who Must Not Be Named, the Oracle of LRH and Prophet of Scientology, Chairman of the Board Religious Technology Center Mr. David Miscavige will market the release of the New And Improved SHSBC and Class VIII courses. Will He call it The Greatest Most Awesome Can’t Miss Event Of All Time? Shit, that’s an event I might actually go to, just for teh lulz!
I wonder if He will rename it the SCOHB? CICS? The possibilities are endless.
Yes I do remember it being hard to find a parking spot. I also recall the numerous Scientology owned stores and restaurants near the org, I wonder how many of those are left.
SHSPC – Saint Hell Suppressive Person Course which will replace the PTS/SP Course so you can observe rock slammers up close and personal with a maxi-quantum whorehouse meter and finally gain a reality on what we’re up against in the psych dominated wog world aberrated jungle of Teegeeack. Enrollment is restricted to Patron Maximorons for the nominal fee of $100,000 (materials not included).
According to DMSMH V, the Cultites must be suffering from the Aversion to Math Disorder resulting in the blind leading the blind.
I expect this same disorder will prevent those at the Porn Valley Idle Morgue event last night to share the meaning of insolvency. How long can I spend more than I make and pledge to save all of mankind so Dave and Quinn will like me?
No worries mate, if you can’t do the math then you need some more sec checking followed by the student hat (for the 5th time) and then some Dianetics.
Oh! and don’t forget the PTSSP crse. It’s an all time favorite too, it can’t be done enough, just like the purif and objectives!
Now, now, Mike, you forgot the little caveat in the LRH reference that says we don’t have to clear each and EVERY being on the planet, that the minions won’t be cleared because they’re DB’s and there’s no hope for them. So if we do the math on that, then all they have to Clear are two people and they have made it: The two big beings on the planet: Tom Cruise and David Miscavige. We’re close. But one problem: David Miscavige won’t show up for session and hasn’t had auditing in decades. Come on, Dave, take one for the team! We can state the planet is cleared if the two Big Beings are Clear and all the minions are not!
Cindy, Dave is already Clear and indeed well onto his OT levels. He was C/S’ed & audited by El Con Tubbotard trained personnel. He was determined by El Con Hisself to be 100% trustworthy and promotable to the highest levels of scamology management.
Do you doubt El Con’s scamology tech know how and ability? If so, who do you believe is better at it and by what logic do you come to that conclusion?
LRH did not designate Miscavige as his successor. Miscavige staged a coup.
No LRH issue has ever been presented in which LRH designated anyone as his sucessor. If there were one naming Miscavige you can bet your bottom dollar he would have waved in at us vigorously and often.
The letter in which LRH expressed confidence in Miscavige was a contrived, single-purpose PR document written after the fact of the coup, to prevent LRH Jr. (“Nibs”) from winning a lawsuit to take control of LRH’s finances in his final years.
Miscavige was kicked off the Class 4 auditor internship for losing his temper and hitting a female preclear in session. Shortly before the coup LRH ordered that Miscavige be sec checked.
Ex SO who worked closely with DM say that he hasn’t had auditing in decades and that although he some how got onto OT VII, he doesn’t audit on it. This has been said more than once on the blogs. And in one of the books from an ex that I read, the author said LRH at one point ordered DM to have auditing and told someone to audit him, but DM somehow just never made it go right to show up for auditing. All this makes me wonder if he is just making stupid decisions all along the way which is hurting the church and dissemination, or if he actually doesn’t believe in the tech and wants to see it destroyed? What do other posters here think?
Cindy, that’s an excellent question, one that I think many people would like to know the answer to. I’m glad you asked it, because I assumed that Miscavige, since he is the leader of the church, was OTVIII. I just assumed that the person with the highest position in the church, had already achieved the highest level on the bridge, and therefore had intimate knowledge of all aspects of the tech.
So if I understand what you are saying, are the questions: are his poor decisions due to a) his lack of knowledge, or b) because he doesn’t actually believe in it? I think there may be another possibility, maybe he does believe in it, maybe not, but his quest for power and money seem to be what drive him.
“..maybe he does believe in it, maybe not, but his quest for power and money seem to be what drive him.” Maybe you’re right, TJ. Maybe he thinks, “yeah yeah yeah, the tech works, so give me your money right now.” Maybe with him the real clearing the planet is an abandoned goal and the new and better goal is to amass all the money and power he can.
FAIL CINDY! El Con DID see him promoted to the HIGHEST levels AND gave him the Star of Trust. And DID approve it.
Coop, it’s actually the, Porn Valley MODEL Idle Morgue.
This post in a way speaks to why I am so certain that the vast majority of Scientologists (ESPECIALLY the old timers who got in in the 1970s) have made themselves stupid. To repeat, MADE themselves stupid to buy into all this nonsense.
We used to talk of course about “clearing the planet” forty plus years ago, but there is really only ONE way to do that, and POSSIBLY (and I only say possibly) we were on the right track in those days. With a number of orgs full of students (including ASHO) and the great success of the Samuels missions (but others too like the Wimbush missions) the way forward to clearing the planet, AT LEAST MADE SENSE (even if it had little chance of actually happening). And that was … you MAKE AUDITORS ND LOTS OF THEM. And auditors then get such good results on their pic’s that THEY want to become auditors and then THEIR pc’s become auditors and so on and so on (my favorite auditor when I was on life repair told me that was his own personal “status stat” – how many of his pc’s became auditors themselves). This is what you might call a “geometric progression” and is actually the only way you COULD “clear the planet,”
So what does LRH and Miscavige do from 1975 – 1982? When most of the conditions formulas WHICH RON WROTE say to keep doing the successful actions? Only fucking change everything and destroy what AT LEAST GAVE YOU A CHANCE! The continual price increases, the COMPLETE DESTRUCTION of the big missions and of course eventually, the KICKING OUT OF SCIENTOLOGY of many of its most experienced tech people (I am one of them and I know many more).
And get this folks … these are the people who say they have the answer to management and administrative “technology”! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ….. let me take a breath here … can you imagine going to THESE people to find out how to achieve your goals in your organization???? Please …. I don’t want to start a long laugh again …..
And of course … what has COMPLETELY replaced making auditors as the prime activity of the CoS? … donating … your status …. donating … your status … donating … yeah, that won’t “clear’ anyone but it earns, baby, oh how it earns …. (now it looks like Trump may not have paid income tax for 18 years. You think Davey has been paying any? Yeah, how America does love guys who just rake in the cash …)
Works pretty good for the Brits & Europeans too. They just have a better non-disclosure in place. Been at it longer I suppose.
Trump or Clinton? Clinton or Trump? Makes me glad I’m not an American with a decision like that to make with the final leg of the race to the White House coming up soon. It affects us all anyway no matter who or where you are on this planet, but sheesh! What a choice between those two it all boiled down to? Good luck!
Be fair, Joe, Ditsy Hillary ain’t paid no stinkin’ taxes, either.
In the US, only morons pay MORE taxes than they are legally required to pay. Stop waging insane wars and I MIGHT pay a penny more than I’m required to.
Joe, how much MORE in taxes did YOU write a check to the IRS for than you were required to by law?
Just a hypocrite test…
Joe, I agree 100%. In 1975 there were MISSIONS with 200 students on metered auditor training. They were there because auditing WORKED, not necessarily to produce supermen but definitely to produce great case gain that made life BETTER if not perfect for its recipients, and for a price that made sense, especially for trained auditors co-auditing. Not many of us thought we’d clear the planet in our lifetimes, but it was very real to us that we were part of something good that could grow.
This would be laughable if it weren’t so tragic. It’s like – create a big game that others can get behind and get excited about, let them win, let them grow and expand – and then DESTROY THEM!
How can anyone look to these people (including LRH) with awe and amazement? THEY’RE FUCKING NUTS!!
Statpush, you’ve hit the nail of the head. The Scientology movement has been a contest between two opposing cultures. The original culture was an informal association of good people interested in becoming spiritually free and helping others. The second was an invasive, co-opting, totalitarian regime interested in money and power.
The second culture won the contest and is now dying from its karma. The tragedy is that so many people who participated in the contest now believe that the first, good culture never really happened, or that in its essence it contained the seeds of the second culture.
But it didn’t. The two cultures can be separated. That would require an evaluation to be made of every detail of Scientology to identify what encouraged the original good culture and what encouraged the invasive second evil culture. Then the original good culture could be cleansed and restarted.
It’s really just a big Danger Formula. Unfortunately bypassed charge makes differentiation too difficult for most to see the situation for what it is. And when one fails at Danger handling one drops to Non-Existence, Liability, Doubt, Enemy, Treason, and Confusion. The group that could turn things around is now spread across that whole spectrum of lower conditions.
Thoughts, anyone?
“Thoughts, anyone?”
Yes, I’ll tell you my thoughts. I’ve read a number of your posts and have been wanting to tell you that it’s nice to read the comments of someone who actually knows the tech and knows Scientology history. And you don’t seem to have any back-off on saying what you know – in spite of the almost certain flack you get from some certain posters who clearly DON’T know, and/or have, as you noted, bypassed charge that “makes differentiation too difficult to see the situation for what it is.”
Kudos to you, My 2 Cents, for trying to put more truth out there.
My Two Cents said, “The original culture was an informal association of good people interested in becoming spiritually free and helping others. The second was an invasive, co-opting, totalitarian regime interested in money and power.”
This split, this schizoid binary outcome is in fact the mental condition of Ron himself.
To blame it on the group or DM and his past and present minions is not the why.
The golden age of Scientology as you say, was a time when Paulette Cooper was being harrased almost to death by Ron.
The golden age of spiritual enlightened Sciwntology is a time when little children were being put in chain lockers.
All of these conditions can be found in studying the psychological profile of Ron.
Scientology is the extension of him.
I know people who can say how Toast Masters have changed their lives.
I have friends who swear by their therapist. They changed their lives.
The fact that people have gotten gains in Scientology is really nothing special.
When human beings desire to expand their awareness, the do and can.
The specialness of Scientology was a well marketed commercial.
Much like Coco Cola or any other product.
I still do not understand how people still put trust in a man whose very techniques led him to wish suicide.
This one fact is in incredible denial with those who still elevate Ron’s Scientology.
Disagree all you want with the theory of BTs, but LRH believed in it. The electro-shock e-meter was an attempt to blow off some stubborn BTs, whether that killed his body or not.
LRH wasn’t trying to escape from his life. He had no need to, because he knew his physical body wouldn’t last much longer anyway.
Endlessly repeating the story of his “attempted suicide” is an attempt to dead agent him and thereby get people to turn away from the subject of Scientology.
But to me the issue has never been whether or not LRH was perfect enough to teach me something useful. I didn’t believe in Scientology because I believed in LRH. It was the other way around. I actually understood and agreed with the fundamentals of his philosophy and tech, and then granted him conditional leadership because of that.
Yes, LRH had some big out-points. But we’ve all observed or heard about them all at this point. The jury is in — LRH was highly flawed and ultimately failed. OK. Thank you very much!
Now what? What are we going to do with the true, workable, and good parts of the subject he left behind when he went on to Target 2, Heaven, Hell, or wherever?
“Disagree all you want with the theory of BTs, but LRH believed in it. The electro-shock e-meter was an attempt to blow off some stubborn BTs, whether that killed his body or not”
I think this is where we part ways in being able to communicate with understanding.
To me, this debate about BTs is like debating a religionist about church doctrine based on belief. A reasonable conclusion can never happen. You see it as science. I see it as faith.
You believe in R6, Xenu and body thetans. I believe they are the delusions of a misguided madman.
You cut Ron slack for desiring to electrocute himself to rid himself of BTs. You believe that Ron is so far above body consciousness that suicide is a wiseman’s option.
I see it as a mental disorder and unquestionable failure of Ron’s fallacious scientism.
This chasm ain’t being spanned my good friend.
We shall agree to disagree. Respectfully.
But thank you so much for engaging with no ad hominems. No personal attacts. That means more to me than the subject of discussion.
Thank for that. When I’ve uncovered, from my own understanding, things about Ron I’ve been called every weaponized word in the Scientology arsenal in some of these blogs. Mostly from over at Marty’s. But not from Marty.
Mike is a most benevolent man.
Again, thank you for your decent discussion with me My Two Cents.
May your path be fruitful. May you find the freedom you work so hard for.
Brian, you’ve got your dates wrong. The original, good culture of Scientology that I described was prior to 1965. The Sea Org and its chain lockers didn’t exist before 1967. Paulette Cooper was in 1970 or so.
Both of the two cultures I described had their seeds in people in general, including LRH. Every person on earth is a mix of good and bad. Ron had a case, and it led him to make the mistake of trying to protect and forward the original good culture he’d created by wrapping it in a militaristic bad culture. I think he underestimated the degree to which the bad would crush the good as a result.
Not to go all Zoroastrian on you, but there really is a war going on in the world between good (freedom to be self-determined) and evil (totalitarian control). It can be seen in every aspect of human life. It’s not easy to determine just the right degree of control to apply to the good activity of freeing beings, for the purpose of helping that activity, without turning it into a cult that creates slaves.
In a good activity under attack, it’s sometimes necessary to use ruthless hyper-control on a short-term basis (e.g. a parent grabbing a child about to run into the street in front of an oncoming truck). But one must be able to then relinquish control, in favor of restored self-determinism, when the crisis has passed.
It’s also important for the good guys to avoid antagonizing the bad guys and thereby pulling in attacks. LRH antagonized the bad guys continuously for years, and got attacked heavily in response. He then went too far with defensive control, resulting in Scientology becoming what it resisted.
My 2 Cents: “It’s not easy to determine just the right degree of control to apply to the good activity of freeing beings, for the purpose of helping that activity, without turning it into a cult that creates slaves.”
Yes. And understanding the above would result in having the compassion Brian and others like to talk about but don’t seem to be able to incorporate into their thinking. This points to a fixed idea or a held-down seven.
To his credit, Brian actually admitted in a blog comment not too long ago that he felt his own karma was involved in his attitude towards Ron, i.e. that he had similar overts of his own. That was one of the most honest statements I’ve seen him (or anyone else) make, and I had to admire him for it.
However…the incessant Ron bashing continues. Too bad. All that negativity being continuously spewed out into the universe is no different from what Ron is accused of – which is, as you say, not the right degree of control to apply without it turning into a cult.
Hi Marildi!! Hope all is well.
I’m writing this for onlookers more than you Marildi as I have written this before to you but somehow either you don’t remember or it’s something else.
Why I continue to criticize Ron:
There are always new comers to these blogs who still have lurking in their minds fear of being critical of Ron. And rightly so, because he threatened their lives, family and group membership.
Some old timers to these blogs get very upset because I continue to criticize Ron.
I’ve told them many times why I do it. For those who are new to these blogs.
But for some reason some old timers simply see my criticisms as a problem with me. I am ok with that.
But the truth is, my criticism of Ron are not for you Marildi. Though I see they still irk you somewhat.
I’ve mentioned this before many times to you. I’m more concerned with those broken lives presently escaping than being popular, agreed with or liked by you or anyone.
And the one shot clear, the fast route to mental freedom, is to take a hard look at the man who taught them that if you question him or his church, you are an evil SP.
That doctrine is a crime against sovereign thinking. And I will always feel justified in pointing this evil out.
Your views of me are non of my concern.
❤️?
“I have written this before to you but somehow either you don’t remember or it’s something else.”
How could I possibly forget, Brian? You’ve been repeating yourself for years on all the blogs. And yet, I don’t recall ever seeing a newcomer comment that you had gotten them to “see the truth” about Ron. It must be rare, if it has happened at all. So I don’t buy it as your purpose.
“But the truth is, my criticism of Ron are not for you Marildi. Though I see they still irk you somewhat.”
If I’m irked, it’s because of your simplistic approach – and your lack of a spiritual perspective, ironic as that is in light of what you preach.
You could be right Marildi. The exchange of thought is good. Is it not? ???
My above post can be a response to this as well.
Yes, what Miraldi said. Kudos to you, My 2 Cents. YOu have differentiated between the two cultures of the church, the Before one and the After one. And it does take someone who has actually lived it, been IN the church, trained as an auditor, held the cans as a PC and paid their dues there to be able to differentiate. And you’re right that people with chips on their shoulders, some who have never even done anything or much of anything in the church, and many who have lots of bypassed charge, these people are not able to differentiate and just spew their toxins everywhere. And when asked a question about their training and auditing experiences, if any, in the church, some of them do exactly as you predicted: they don’t answer, give flippant make wrong answers and get back to their old saw of , “ain’t it all bad and ain’t he stupid for saying otherwise?” Yes, you deserve a medal My 2 Cents, for standing up and saying your truth. And now I”ll be pounced upon and torn limb from limb by the fanatically anti everything people on this blog just for saying this today. Sigh.
What I have observed on both sides, the pro and anti Scientologist is this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
There is something still not settled
Brian, we don’t need to take sides at all. We need to get above the level of winning and losing, and just observe the truth.
100% agree
Brian, I’m not going to read the whole, very long wiki article on “ad hominem.” What’s your point?
“these people are not able to differentiate and just spew their toxins everywhere.”
That was toward Cindy. In my opinion the ideas seem not to be discussed. The differences are not honored with discussion. But the people are attacked.
I’ve been personally attacked for bringing up an argument. It’s fine with me because there is so much “case gain” being calm and centered when others loose themselves.
You are a man of discussion and not a cheap shot sucker punch to the gut kinda guy, for daring to challenge ideas and belief systems.
You sound like you have had some fun in there during the 1970s. That’s well and good. Of course you’d want to recreate that atmosphere and that culture.
But perhaps it was not scientology that was behind this atmosphere and culture. Perhaps it was simply part of the 1970s, and now that is gone. A lot of people have had the same kind of fun communal experiences in Indian ashrams, or in homegrown communes around that time.
I was born after all that and the closest I had to this was the college dorm. It was great fun, non-standard electrical installation, faulty heating systems, annoying room mates and all.
But that time is gone. It’s fun to live like that when you’re young, but less so as an adult.
The bad things were there at the beginning, it’s just that now, I can see them, and they annoy me.
I think it’s the same thing that happened to you.
You want to recreate that fun time, separate the good from the bad, but unfortunately, the bad seems to be intrinsically part of the good.
One example of that bad shines through another post of yours : the desire to control what is ok to discuss vs what is not – the “clear cognition” being apparently off-limits.
I’m sorry, but for me that is a deal breaker. I do not accept to be told what is acceptable to discuss or not, or what should be told or not told to me, for whatever reason.
Kemist, I won’t publicly discuss what Clear is, because I think people who are Clear or close to it should have their own realizations rather than getting clues from others. But I’m not going to try to enforce my choice on anyone. Please go ahead and communicate as you see fit.
Regarding your other point, the “golden age” I’ve written about was not the 70’s, but rather the early 60’s at Saint Hill. By the 70’s, while missions were booming, the totalitarian bad culture was well underway, even though at that point it was pretty much confined to the Sea Org.
You say you were born after the 70’s, so your experience with Scientology must have started around 1990, by which time totalitarian evil had taken over fully. So when you say that “the bad was there from the beginning” you have no basis for that opinion, at least from your own experience, because you weren’t there in the “beginning” (early 60’s), much less the real beginning in 1950.
Your point about college-age communal living and the idealistic gullibility of youth is well taken though.
That’s easy statpush. The people doing so are mentally damaged from their time practicing the cult of scientology’s mind warping tek.
Wynski is an operative whose method is to intererupt and distract from actual reason, by stating generalities in clever fashion. He never participates in any intellectually responsible discussion.
Wow 2 scents, an “operative”. Like 007? The Ron bot paranoid schizophrenia is strong in you.
Hey Q, where the hell are my gadgets?
And when interruption and distraction don’t seem to be working, try mocking and belittling with the use “humor.” Never actually engage in a intellectually responsible argument directly on the topic.
^^^^^^ Winski’s modus operandi.
More of the same useless smart aleck remarks from you. You can’t engage in a rational discussion. All you do is assert invalidations of everything and everyone associated with Scientology, which you see as 100% bad. If you’re not an operative you’re a 14-year-old boy living in his mother’s basement and doing your best not to grow up.
A rational discussion about pretending that a make believe, poorly written space opera cult is what reality is all about.
Um, okeydoke. I gotta admit. I laughed out loud when I read this.
So there you have it Two Cents. Mike Wynski made his stance known, and there’s no point in trying to change him, he has the right to his opinion. This is something you and Marildi should realize: people do have the right to their own opinion, even if it differs from yours. You two are very abrasive; for instance your calling him names because you don’t like what he has to say (a 14 year old boy living in his mother’s basement) and that sort of thing is not “rational discussion”, it’s an attack on the person, not just his views. When someone is so belligerent, calls names, and impatiently demands that someone answer their questions (like you do with Brian) it isn’t going to bring anyone over to your agreement with your opinion. Rather, one thinks “if this is the personality that results from being a Scientologist, I’m definitely steering clear of it”.
T.J. thanks. But, I really don’t have an opinion. I can only decide based on empirical scientific data. But you are right in that there is no hope changing my opinion on the subject, as I don’t have one.
I am open to any peer reviewed testing on the subject. If people want to push this subject forward, that is the way to go.
I do appreciate you trying to improve My Two’s style so as to enable him to speak to non-scientologists in a more productive manner. If that is what he wants that is.
I agree with your assessment My 2 Cents Worth. Add to the list, “and he never answers the question.”
Mike Wynski wouldn”t answer My 2 Cent’s original question, but down the thread here I see he inadvertently let it slip that he is a NON Scn and has never been one.
Would be interesting to see a calculation on how many SP they declare a week, just for comparison. Something tells me CoS is declaring far more than creating Clears.
¨Pick a number, any number!¨(followed by loud cackling emanating from a cloud of bong smoke)…
Dude!!! So you’re the one who took my bong! Low blow, Mark. I thought we were friends…
Come on Dude… kiss and make up. It’s just a piece of bamboo after all, nothing that can’t be replaced. I assume you prefer natural products?
Old Surfer Dude and I Yawnalot, I salute you, with backup joint in hand(passes joint on left hand side). 🙂
Always…
Cool… you hungry? I got the munchies bad!
Waaaaaay ahead of you. Just fired up the Q…
Good thing the outfit has the employment situation locked in at a billion years.
Scientology syllogism:
Major premise: A clear is a being who no longer has his own reactive mind.
Minor premise: There is no such thing as a reactive mind.
Conclusion: The planet is cleared!
Mephisto! I couldn’t agree more. Man that was spot fucking on!!! You just hit basic, basic. The only thing truly erased is member’s bank accounts.
Mephisto … that handles it for ME. So … Durant and Curry on the same team …should be very interesting.
My take is that the mind is constantly reacting. You look at a tree and the mind reacts with the idea and memory of tree.
You walk into an ice cream store and before the conscious mind knows anything the mind is reminded that it likes chocolate.
Driving in a car and someone cuts you off and the mind reacts and goes through motor control motions automatically.
The mind is constantly reacting to the 5 senses of seeing, hearing, tasting, touching and smelling.
Being cause over these reactions is a constant practice. Being clear is a verb not a noun. It’s a process not an absolute state. That is until liberation is attained.
In Scientology, the state of clear is really an ego classification. It is a label that represents money spent on Scientology.
You spend this or that amount of money and you get a cert, a label, group praise and acknowledgement and a make believe bragging right of a make believe attainment.
The reactive mind is really very useful. It allows us to to have things being processed in the background so the conscious mind can do other things.
The problem, of course, is when the reactive mind is processing things that don’t match what is real.
Like L R H wishing suicide to rid himself of BTs. Just sayin?
The “state of clear” in Scientology could also simply be that the pc, having some basic experiences in auditing, looking at thought and its relation with how thought colors our experience, has a realization that the individual soul has a senior relation to thought.
It’s say,”I am the thinker.” These thoughts come from me and I am the maker of thought.”
But having this very fundamental and basic realization does not give one the total command over all thought all the time.
That realization is simply the beginning. Being able to differentiate between mind and the soul is a very basic realization.
And having this realization does not automatically award us of the ability to be at cause at all times over mind.
It is simply a realization which begins the journey of being the mind’s master.
Scientology is an admixture of watered down Vedic knowledge with Freud, and further defined by the delusional mind of Ron.
Ron’s personage was a well marketed make believe, enforced by the threat of punishment and group excommunication.
The man who “created the state of clear” was constantly reacting, constantly the effect, constantly blaming outside forces for his real inner issues.
Ron was simply ignorant of the subject, self realization, that he sold.
Ron was a mess. He was always reacting to one type of demon or another.
And our lack of familiarity with the subject of life and Spirit, put us in a position of being “Altitude Instructed” into a state of blind belief, masquerading as direct perception of truth.
That is why LRH hated being doubted or criticized. He hated it because somewhere within himself he knew that if we really looked at what he was saying, we would see him for who he was. And that would be bad for business.
True men or women of wisdom love being doubted and criticized. That is because wisdom is confident in itself and knows that dialog is an opportunity to change minds.
True wisdom and knowledge eats doubt for breakfast.
Blind faith labels doubt and criticism as evil and the work of the devil/SP.
Isn’t it interesting, that after all that study and agreement that Scientology is a science, that we would end up realizing that LRH created a fundamentalist belief system?
Brian, your comments on Clear are insightful and agree with my own viewpoint to a large degree. I prefer not to discuss the “clear cog” in public, however.
Meanwhile, I want to ask you about something else. You said, “Scientology is an admixture of watered down Vedic knowledge with Freud, and further defined by the delusional mind of Ron.” I’d like you to give some specifics about “watered down Vedic knowledge.” What exactly are the key points in that?
Please answer rather than recommending “Autobiography of a Yogi.” I already know a good deal about Vedic philosophy and tech, from both reading and personal experience. I’m not asking for instruction, just specifics to flesh out the generality you stated.
Hey My Two Cents! Thank you for the continued engagement.
Many historians consider the Vedic knowledge to be the source of religion on this planet. I’ve discussed it many times before. You can google it.
The likes of Einstein, Mark Twain have this view. Google it.
Carl Sagan has said,”the only culture that has the same age of the Universe that present day Astro physics has is the ancient Hindu” google it
IDEAS AND DOCTRINES THAT RON GOT FROM THE STUDY OF THE VEDAS. (BTW, Ron himself stated that he could not have come up with Scientology if it was not for his “study” of the Vedas.
1) the goal of liberation from body consciousness
2) the practices which lead to the perception of our incorporeal nature.
3) the description of various powers that the soul has over matter
4) reincarnation
Basically the entire idea of personal liberation, total freedom, accomplished through self effort, self enquiry, the procedures theory and disciplines to accomplish that goal.
The Vedas, in particular, the Upanishads, state the goal and procedures to accomplish that end. But a liberated teacher is necessary for the instruction.
The goal of total spiritual freedom through self effort is an ancient goal from the ancient Rishis who wrote the Vedas. They were in inner scientists who recorded for all time the goal of life itself.
I know you may not like to hear this, but reading that book will give you a better insight.
The Buddha himself was born into that world. He came up with his own brand. But basically the goal of total spiritual freedom or God realization is a practice learned from ancient India; the Mother of all Religions.
I say Ron’s version is watered down because he was truly a dilettante who made the goal his own, but was ignorant to the truths of attaining that goal.
Brian, you said, “Ron’s version is watered down because he was truly a dilettante who made the goal his own, but was ignorant to the truths of attaining that goal.”
So, what specifically were those truths for attaining the goal, that Ron was ignorant of?
Brian, please answer. What specifically were those truths for attaining the goal, that Ron was ignorant of?
The most basic. Look up the word Dharma, then read the Ten Commandments, The Four Noble Truths, The Eight Limbs of Yoga.
In Yoga practice this can be equated with having in ruds. If our ethical nature is in harmony with clear conscience, because we are acting according to the laws of behavior inherent in the fabric of the universe, that is the basic foundation in which all other practices hinge.
Ron was immoral. Immoral people cannot be spiritually free because they are working against themselves by creating obstacles out of harmony with cosmic order.
Also, Ron was stuck in the mind. He really did not know what he was looking at. He saw a few patterns of mind that he fashioned processes from, but his spiritual intelligence was really cave-mannish.
Just look at his family dynamic and the state of his church business.
I can go on and on of what Ron did not now. It is revealed by a serious study of the theory and practices given by the great ones.
This knowledge is not anti Ron. It’s simply seeing the truth of what’s there.
And the clear cog in public??
My two cents, how long have you been out of the church?
In or out of the Church, I’m not going to even indirectly invalidate or evaluate for anyone on whether or not they are clear. The simple version of the clear cog is all over the internet, but there are additional aspects and nuances. That’s what I won’t get into.
Actually My 2 Cents, per HCOB 24 Sept. ’78 it was, “I am mocking up my reactive mind”
All the other stuff written talking around it isn’t important.
Wynski, I will ask again. What is your training and processing level?
And My Two Cents, I like your inquisitive nature. You must have upset some bubble dwellers with great success!
Good questions. You have great questions. I honor that.
Then answer my question about what specifically were the truths for attaining the goal of spiritual liberation that Ron was ignorant of?
Brian, since you haven’t answered me on what specifically were the truths for attaining the goal of spiritual liberation that Ron was ignorant of, I must assume that you don’t know what they are, and that your purported knowledge of Vedic tech is less than you claim.
As another commenter here said, you have been criticizing Ron and promoting Yogananda for years on all the blogs, basically repeating the same stuff over and over.
Your viewpoint seems to be based on the failure of OT 3 to make BTs real to you despite your having skipped the preliminary steps. Most people who tried to run OT 3 incorrectly as you did would find BTs unreal, and the Xenu story preposterous. You have no reality on BTs because you failed to follow instructions. You were simply a “know best.”
My own world-famous Vedic master before I got into Scientology told me that the universe is full of spiritual beings, but that few people can become aware of them without years of reducing ego-based charge. He and I even discussed Scientology as an alternative to Vedic meditation. He said that Scientology could be faster than meditation if done correctly, but was riskier if done incorrectly.
I had done well in my meditation and in my understanding of the philosophy on which it was based — well enough that he invited me to train with him in India to become a teacher. But I wanted to try Scientology, so he told me to go do it for a few months and then decide which path to follow. I did, and got more case gain in my first 10 hours of auditing that I had in years of meditation and various forms of psychotherapy. So I stayed with Scientology.
Later, when I learned about BTs they were immediately real to me, and when I audited them I got results. So did most of my friends who got to that level.
So your never-ending invalidatiion of upper level Scientology, coupled with your promotion of Yogananda, seems to me to be ill-founded, and in the final analysis destructive. There’s nothing wrong with having an anti-Scientology-tech viewpoint based on your own experience. But failure to inspect that experience honestly and rationally for one’s own responsibility is another matter.
The bottom line is that you didn’t follow the instructiions when you dabbled in Scientology, and as a result it didn’t work for you. That’s a flunk on you, not Scientology tech or LRH. Until you have followed the instructions your viewpoint on the tech is without merit in my opinion.
The endless back and forth may be interesting to you, but you lost me (and I suspect most others) a LONG time ago. Please, be done with this. You are shouting across a chasm. Nobody is going to convince you that your feelings, perceptions and beliefs are not true. Just as you are not going to convince Mike Wynski or Brian or whoever it is that you are arguing with that their views are invalid.
“My own world-famous Vedic master . . . said that Scientology could be faster than meditation if done correctly, but was riskier if done incorrectly.”
Wow, My 2 Cents. That’s an amazing statement from a Vedic master. And it validates my own observation when watching youtube vidoes of some of the modern spiritual teachers like Adyashanti and Mooji. Often, one of their followers has returned to talk again about a long-term struggle they’ve been having with some part of the ego (i.e. some strongly reactive area) – and I can’t help but think, based on my experience on various flows, how much faster it could be handled with a standard auditing program, or even a single session sometimes.
Thanks for all your knowledgeable and insightful comments!
Mike, I am not trying to convince Wynski or Brian of anything. I know they are beyond reach. What I’ve been trying to do is expose them so they have less effect on your other readers.
These two and a few others have filled up your blog comments section with so much altered-to-worsen propaganda that in its volume, frequency, and repetitiveness it amounts to the same kind of mind control brainwashing they complain about the Church doing.
You have allowed so much of this in the name of free speech that a person coming to your blog to get data with which to do a doubt formula will inevitably get a negatively skewed view of Scientology philosophy and tech even outside the Church.
I have no objection to the true negative facts about the Church, the tech, and LRH personally being discussed in a rational, balanced, truth-seeking fashion. But your blog has for quite awhile now been imbalanced.
I particularly object to the “everybody knows” ridicule that has I am sure driven away most readers who have benefitted from the tech and would like to find a way to filter out the bad and move forward with the good. The comments by Marildi, Cindy, and a couple of others attest to the need for someone to do what I have done with my comments.
However, since you’ve asked, I’ll not let my exchanges with Wynski, Brian, et. al. run so long, and I’ll avoid countering their ad hominems with ones of my own.
However, since you’ve asked, I’ll not let my exchanges with Wynski, Brian, et. al. run so long, and I’ll avoid countering their ad hominems with ones of my own.
Appreciated. And I hope the “other side” takes heed as well.
BTW, my blog is not “unbalanced” because of some filtering of comments. It is reflection of the views of those who read and decide to comment. Nothing more, nothing less.
I am happy for anyone who has found comfort, happiness or enlightenment from scientology. I am also happy for those who feel they have found the same by leaving scientology. Neither is more right nor more wrong than the other. My purpose is to expose the abuses that are meted out at the hands of scientology and to expose the lies that are used to keep people from thinking for themselves.
My 2 Cents,
No one has ever hit the nail more on the head. If I were as articulate as you, I would have said the exact same things. Bravo!
“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” — British statesman, Edmund Burke
That is a great quote.
Who are you identifying as the evil that will triumph if good men do nothing?
You, me, and My 2 Cents. 🙂
And many others. I think most people’s intentions are good, even the ones I strongly disagree with. The problem is that we can be misguided or easily mislead, so we always have to be on the lookout for this. I’m pretty sure you would agree. Thanks for all your efforts and good intentions, Mike. I respect this.
Oops! I was answering the wrong question. You asked who I identified as evil and I was answering who the “good men” were. Sorry about that.
I guess the “evil” I had in mind when I remembered that quote would be anyone who was forwarding lies, knowingly or not. I assume most if not all of your posters are not knowingly lying, but carelessness about what is and isn’t truth is nonetheless harmful.
Mike, I applaud you for helping to expose the abuses and mind control methods of the Church. And I certainly take you at you word that you don’t filter submitted comments to favor any particular point of view. I also acknowledge that every once in a very great while you do have something good to say about Scientology philosophy and tech.
However, I have never seen a full article on your blog that validates that philosophy and tech, or gives good news about its sucessful delivery outside the Church. This attracts negative commenters and drives away people like me, Marildi, and Cindy.
So you may not be promoting a negative imbalance of comments by any acts of commission, but you are promoting it by your omission of positive articles.
And frankly, your unrelenting negativity lost ME a long time ago, especially your stat reports and Thursday Funnies. Both were great at first, but I got overrun. And there’s now so much tonnage of bad press on the Church that really no more is needed anyway.
It’s time for what comes next, and in that regard I see a dialectic. The Thesis is the Church. The Antithesis is the exposure of its abuses, mind control, and the fact that the tech didn’t make supermen. The Synthesis will be coming up with a non-cultish way to utilize the good in the philosophy and tech while avoiding the abuses of the organization, and including sucessful post-LRH R&D to correct and complete the tech as needed.
I think you’ve done your job as you defined it, and that it’s now time to shift gears and move into Synthesis. If the majority of your readers aren’t up to making that shift with you, they can always amuse themselves on ESMB. You’ll get plenty of new readers, not to worry.
Thanks for your thoughtful comment.
My interest is not in reaching you or Mike Wynski or really anyone who comments here. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy the comments and the differing views and there is always something to be learned.
But the reason I keep doing this blog — and it IS a pain in the ass and costly in terms of time — is to let those scientologists who may be doubting themselves know that they are NOT crazy. That the outnesses they observe and the injustices, disconnection and abuses they suffer and the lies they are told are REAL. It is NOT that they “have overts” or are “PTS”, have “unhandled Ev Purps,” “MU’s” or any number of other explanations that introvert and deflect from what is really going on.
So many people tell me that this is what has been most important to them. To know that others see the same things they see — that they are NOT alone, NOT insane and the problem is NOT them.
That is the audience I seek to reach. And judging from the steady flow of emails and messages I get, this is in fact valued by people.
I also want to have a repository of factual information that counters the lies that are constantly told by the church. Exposing the fact that their “4th dynamic campaigns” are a sham, that money sucked out of so many people for “ideal orgs” is based on a constant stream of outright lies and that scientology is not “clearing the planet” and thus persuading people to “join the crusade” and give up their future and maybe even their family and friends.
I am not trying to be “balanced” – I am trying to expose the lies, abuses and fraud that is part and parcel of the church of scientology.
I welcome those who apply scientology without the abuses and fraud. Some of my closest friends are auditors and supervisors outside the church and I support them as strongly as I oppose the abuses and lies.
I hope you and others keep commenting and presenting your views. I think it has value. Whether pro or con, the very fact that people can in fact think for themselves about the subject of scientology is in stark contrast to the world of fundamentalist scientology. And that in itself is also liberating.
“But the reason I keep doing this blog — and it IS a pain in the ass and costly in terms of time — is to let those scientologists who may be doubting themselves know that they are NOT crazy.”
That is fine, Mike, and even commendable, but my view is that this purpose is largely defeated by the fact that anyone doubting themselves in the way you describe would not be doing so in the first place if they didn’t feel the tech itself was highly valuable (including those who might eventually change their minds about it, or about aspects of it)).
So when such readers see the kind of extreme criticism of the tech and of Hubbard that is prevalent in the comments here, it effectively undermines what you are trying to do – and I would imagine a good number of them do not stick around. And those in this category who do stick around in an attempt to counter the falsehoods, wouldn’t stay too long as there is very, very little in the way of rational discussion. This is exactly how I myself responded when I was first exploring the internet and came across forums that were highly critical of the tech – especially when the criticisms showed their actual ignorance of it and their own fixed ideas.
“I welcome those who apply scientology without the abuses and fraud. Some of my closest friends are auditors and supervisors outside the church and I support them as strongly as I oppose the abuses and lies.”
Yes, but it seems that you do this in the same generous way that you would support any group or individual whose views you consider to be misguided. If I remember right, you said as much in the documentary “Going Clear” when you stated that Scientology is nothing but “FAITH.” And, as My 2 Cents put it, only once in “a very great” while do you do have “something good to say about Scientology philosophy and tech.”
I would say your blog has the potential to be the only forum around where people could sort out various points about the philosophy tech – and I think this would actually contribute to your original purpose. The only other blog I am aware of that tried to do that was the South African “Back in Comm” blog. But they apparently did not have your persistence and did not last too long.
I agree wholeheartedly with what My 2 Cents stated in his comment above, summed up with:
“I think you’ve done your job as you defined it, and that it’s now time to shift gears and move into Synthesis. If the majority of your readers aren’t up to making that shift with you, they can always amuse themselves on ESMB. You’ll get plenty of new readers, not to worry.”
Thanks for your commendation.
My recommendation to you is to start your own blog. You can then run it however you desire and include anything you wish.
I have no interest in trying to guide people into anything — whether it be tech outside the church, meditation or becoming an atheist.
“I have no interest in trying to guide people into anything — whether it be tech outside the church, meditation or becoming an atheist.”
I see what you’re saying – but at the same time, THAT is essentially the effect you have.
In any case, I now have a better understanding of where you’re coming from. Thanks for your reply. I respect you for being up front about it.
You’re welcome. As I have said many times, I try to respect everyone’s view and right to express themselves.
I don’t think I am trying to guide anyone INTO anything, though I am certainly trying to guide them AWAY from the abuse and lies.
Mike, thanks for fleshing out your viewpoint and purpose, and for doing what you are doing. You are performing a very valuable service for your target audience.
But what comes next for them? Once they realize it was the Church, not them, that was crazy, why not let them know about SANE Scientologists they could link up with outside the Church, in order to resume real progress on their own, self-determined spiritual purposes that led them into Scientology in the first place?
As it stands now, the only alternatives they see on your blog are things like Yogananda and “just live your life.” They don’t see the original good culture of Scientology before the abusers took over. But that culture does still exist, albeit in very small pockets. If you are OK with people joining it, why not feature it occasionally as a blog article?
Tech-wise, isn’t it true that after negative gain processing, pc’s benefit from running havingness and ability processes? I’m just suggesting applying that principle on the 3rd dynamic.
What comes next for them? I don’t know. But once the spell is broken, that is enough for me.
Why don’t you and Marildi team up and provide a blog for people who want to keep going with scientology? I think that is a valid undertaking and I agree it is something that probably appeals to a lot of people who move away from the church — that there is an alternative if they feel they are losing their eternity.
Seriously, I think you and Marildi should do this.
Whoa! That means I have perfect recall! I’ll never, ever get sick! I’ll be 100 percent logical! I’ll be a better surfer! I’ll be one of a small group of people who can actually help out at a accident scene! I’ll be…HOMO NOVIS! I’ll be Super Human! And, more importantly, I’ll be even more superior to Wogs! Holy fucking shit!!! This is the greatest day of my life!
Thanks, Mephisto!
A cleared surfer is a cleared surfer. Does that mean no more sand in the shorts?
Sand in shorts is mandatory…
True Grit hey?
Only if they’re Texan grits. I do love grits…
Reminds me of wanting to have “viddles” by Granny Clampet of Beverly Hills. By the c, ment pond with Jed, Gethro and Ellie May.
Texas grits huh? That’s a high recommendation you make Dude.
Sea Org members and staff that I have spoken to actually BELIEVE DM has some magic plan or strategy that is going to flood orgs with people demanding to go Clear. This is the whole justification for the Ideal Orgs. If you poke or probe or question this assertion they get very irate and tell you not to worry DM has everything under control. Amazing.
Dave’s the rave who paves the way for slaves. Hip, hip, hooray!
That’s got to be the start of a great song!
Dave thinks so we don’t have to think. Descartes rewritten.
Descartes: I think therefore I am.
Miscavige: I think therefore you’re ham.
Pompous Pompadoured Puffery
Hellacious Humping Huffery*
Maniacal Mackdaddy Mathematics
Courtesy of an Asshole Asthmatic
All hail the diminutive malignant ecclesiastical wankstain,
captain of the Macallan Seas and Hollywood Boulevard Ho´s.
In the name of the Macabre, the Macarb, and The Miniscule Masturbator.
Let us now take the sacrament of beans, rice, and cal mag.
* ¨huffery¨, the act of huffing
All hail the Dear Leader.
That is amazing and incomprehensible all rolled into one! How sad that there are those who worship a narcissistic $stealing negative person to the extent they are now dm’s puppets.Yes I did so with Ron but I got out.I had no wish to continue with the treatment I received.Thank you for your comment.
The only thing DM has under control is his BM. And even that’s questionable..
Yes, COB has replaced their prefrontal lobes. I have one question for Dave: Do you still beat your wife?
What’s scary is that this is the same attitude Germans had toward Hitler even while Germany was being bombed all around them.
Boggles the mind doesn’t it? They actually believe that! They truly do.
It gives credence for Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny to make a huge comeback! The Tooth Fairy took out an injunction on them but that was revoked when the Sandman got busted. He was last heard saying he was framed by Roger Rabbit. Acting as his attorney, Tinkerbell said it’s early days and the onuses is on the Keystone Cops to produce the evidence in open court but the kangaroo allegedly pouched it.
“It’s all a matter what you believe is true for you,” said Charles Manson. Jim Jones was unavailable for comment.
I think making math is highly entheta, which is why only SP like you dare to calculate this kind of things. Said!
Thank you Mike for sharing your experience and understanding of all things inside Scientology. Hat off for giving your opinion elequantly as so many around get embroiled in incitement and/or defensiveness. Really enjoy reading your blog
Brilliant Mike, as usual!