I recently did a telephone interview on the largest english speaking radio program in Spain. It was broadcast in 2 parts, totaling about 45 minutes.
A little information is here about Talk Radio Europe and here about the program I was on: Let’s Talk with Bill Padley
PART 1
PART 2
Great interview!
Great interview Mike. And, having just read the transcript of Marty and Steve’s conversation in ‘Memoirs’, some interesting and further enlightening exchanges in this comments section re LRH’s final days.
One thing though, if you ever do find yourself strolling down Tottenham Court Road in the near future, the more likely reason you wouldn’t be invited in for that cup of tea is that either there’s nobody there on post and the doors are actually shut or the unfortunate one or two newbies sent there to camouflage the hole wouldn’t know you from Adam. (Hey, cognition time…..Is that where the name, Hole, is derived from, do you think?)
Good stuff. Contrast the difference between how you sound here – and how you looked in that first John Sweeney Panorama show!
Excellent interview! Please consider writing a book. Your history in the church is fascinating and you have a unique history. We ARE interested.
I’m watching my mom in the last stages of her life and it isn’t a pleasant site, in some ways. As time goes on she is moving further and further away from her old body and after locating her, have found her to be quite content and spiritually doing well. She is slowly moving on. But, to look at the body, you would think she is completely insane and not in control. And, of course she’s not! She’s leaving the body and the GE and biological survival instincts are heavily kicking in. So what is physically present and observable, is the biological urge to survive. It’s not a pretty thing at this stage in her life.
I think it’s important to remember that there are different levels of control exerted into and out of the body as it dies. I would never conclude my mom’s condition was equal to the condition of her dying body.
Wow–Mike, Jim and FL, that conversation spun my head around a few times. Very eye-opening. Just two comments from me in the peanut gallery—-How amazingly different things would’ve been if Annie had become IG RTC. And I wonder if there actually were more instructions left from LRH, in any form, that were hidden from view by DM who was slithering all over LRH’s comm lines, picking and choosing who says what, what LRH would read or not, etc. He could very easily have hidden things LRH wanted to have communicated to the world or specific people if they omitted DM in the future plans or gave the most senior positions to others.
Mike, An absolute BRAVO!! You are so well spoke, so articulate, eloquent. I’m sure I’m embarrassing you right now, but I can’t help it. Really feel like jumping up and applauding. Well done! What a great interview.
Oops, a Typo in my post. I meant to say “RE Mike to Jim Logan” I didn’t mean to put LDW in there. My mistake. Sorry. My comment was to Jim Logan.
Just listened to part II of your interview. Very astute observations, Mike. I particularly liked your comments about the possibility of “rejoining” the COS if it reformed, and your speculations about possible future models for groups of people who would have as a purpose the forwarding of the religion of Scientology. I agree with your conclusions about the inevitable corruption of religions “controlled” by a “top-down”, centralized totalitarian model. This model mostly seemed to work when LRH, the founder or “prophet’ of our religion, was the guy at the top, but, as has been the case with many other religions, this model ceases to be practical when the inevitable wanna-be prophets assume control when the founder passes away. Too bad Ron didn’t have time to think this out and make provisions for a transition to a more De-centraliized model before he “died”.
You also mentioned some more benign models used by the religions of Taoism, Buddhism, and a couple of others. (I think that another good example might be Judaism.) I can envision the day when there are smaller groups of Scientologists all over the world, each practicing the religion of Scientology as they see fit and acknowledging their spiritual brotherhood with other groups of Scientologists.
Mike, I agree with your explanation and thesis on Ron’s state at the end of his life and on the fact that he didn’t want to come back to it. He did what he set out to do. But bodies get old, mest deteriorates, minds get feeble. Don’t shoot me for saying that. Just the interview with Sarge in Marty’s book alone says a lot. And as you point out, Annie was in such loyalty and adulation of LRH that she would never utter anything which showed him to be in a bad state. I was at the Palladium when they gave the shore story that he left causatively to do research on upper OT levels where having a body would hamper him, thus…. yada yada yada. But I believed every word of it as did all the other Kool Aid drinkers there. And when the speaker showed a number with a ton of zeroes behind it for a date taken from one of LRH’s sessions, I was electrified and just “knew” that I’d have numbers that big and more when I got onto Solo Nots. What a huge hidden standard! I just wonder how many Solo Nots auditors who were in that audience later when on the level, spent years and years on Solo Nots, more years than needed, more than they should have, waiting for a number that big to show up in their session?
I was at the event at the Palladium too, but I never bought into the “shore story” (A.K.A., bullshit) that Ron had dropped his body on purpose so that he could do research on upper OT levels. Why?
Because, in my experience, he had always valued his comm lines with Scientologists and would never have abruptly just left, leaving some twerp and a non-Scientologyist lawyer (Cooley) to inform his friends. If he had been “planning” to do something like this he would have issued a taped farewell message or something and done what he was going to do in a classy way. Later I privately asked Ron’s doctor (Dr. Gene Denk) about this. Dr Denk’s response was to shake his head, roll his eyes as if to say “what balderdash”, look me directly in the eyes and say emphatically, “He had a MASSIVE STROKE !”.
By the way it is almost unheard of for a person to have a massive stroke who has not had numerous small strokes previously. Strokes usually result in mental confusion.
Regarding the idea that Ron may not currently be in good enough shape as a being to come back with good recall, or that he may not want to, I am not sure that I agree that this is necessarily true.
While I have never had NOTS auditing, I have observed and come to the conclusion that generally Scientologists (the ones who currently have bodies), even when they are aware that they are not a body, are yet more “intimately connected” with their bodies than they may be aware of or care to admit. Disconnecting from one or connecting with a new one may or may not be a simple walk in the park depending on the person and what condition they are in as a being.
Yet, on the other hand, strange as it may seem to many people, I have memories of things which did not happen in my current life which are just as clear and real to me as incidents which I remember which did happen in my current life. Frankly, I have also recalled and re-experienced dropping bodies and picking up new ones. So, the idea that memories are stored only in the brain or any other part of the body does not seem likely to me. I have also studied the Time Track And Engram Running By Chains, bulletins 1 and 2 in the Tech Volumes which give an explanation which seems more likely to me of where and how these memories are created and kept.
In any event, “death” is not usually a pleasant or comfortable affair, otherwise it would not happen. I too believe Sarge’s observations about Ron’s last days. And it makes sense that he would be in an uncomfortable, unhappy, confused, “keyed in” state of mind prior to dropping the body. What happened, has happened, and will happen after that event, whether he “keyed out” subsequently, whether he may or may not change his mind about decisions he made when he was in the state that he was in, what condition he is in now, or what Ron might now chose to do I will not evaluate or speculate upon. He is free to do as he wishes.
But here is an interesting question for Scientologists: If a young guy (or gal) showed up one day and said, “Yeah, it’s me, Ron. At least my name used to be Ron. Anyway, I’m back and I’m here to straighten out this mess and get the show back on the road.”, …..would you be inclined to listen and look or would you write him or her off as a nut-job or usurper.
Intelligent comment Espiritu. Thankyou.
Espiritu – I agree. Although I am far from the fire, and I acknowledge that I am speculating here, I have seen many a person, as they age, become confused. As the liver and kidneys age, the body biochemistry goes out and toxins increase and nutrients flush out unmetabolised and unutilised. Dehydration is another problem. The brain atrophies too and the “switchboard puts the wrong calls through”. I have also wondered – on the strength of information that LRH was on meds for “pancreatitis” whether there was not something worse going on there than an “-itis” (inflammation). The pancreas sits quite posteriorly in the body and can only really be seen on ultrasound or CT which was available in the 80’s. A physical exam or plain x-ray will not pick up a cancer of the pancreas for instance. LRH was said to be in quite a bit of physical discomfort and I have wondered if that was not the problem. The ultimate mechanism of death must have been a massive stroke – per Dr Denk – whom I also believe, and I agree he may have had micro emboli prior which may also have caused the confusion but I also wonder if there was not something more serious which went undiagnosed. The rushed post mortem exam makes me wonder if someone perhaps knew he was quite ill – and had been neglected, and did not want that to be discovered.
Now having regard to Marty’s “Warrior” book – Marty describes how LRH was kept sequestered and the law suits against him were not settled (when they could have been!) while LRH was desperate to get back on lines. Marty had suggested settling and was yelled at for hours for even suggesting it. This was a key factor in the way things turned out (IMO). The suits were settled after LRH’s death – for more than had been mooted prior to his death. That’s another outpoint for me. Vigorously defending the suits – and then caving after LRH died? That seems odd to me.
I think LRH did not see his illness coming, and he did not think (for most of the time he was in hiding) that he would not get back on lines. Then his illness caught up with and overtook him and it was too late. He did not get sophisticated (for those days) medical treatment and was kept in the dark and in hiding because of an unreasonable desire not to settle the litigation. Some of this was his own doing, but it seems to me that there were deliberate efforts afoot to keep him sequestered and made helpless (and by that I don’t meant to impugn the integrity of those attending to him daily – but rather those who kept him SUPPRESSED by not settling the law suits.)
I read absolutely nothing into his confusion at the end of his days. Its all just body trouble. What is astonishing is that he got into that situation. But even LRH said that one OT on his own cannot overcome all. Sometimes evil is too great.
I think that these are VERY good observations, particularly the out points you mentioned. They seem to point at best to a self-centered and reckless disregard for Ron’s well-being. As more data comes out and more testimony is given the mystery surrounding this event will unfold and we will figure this thing out and increase the certainty about what actually happened. I have a great faith that Ron’s friends will keep on looking and keep listening.
I think that LRH was telling it like it is when he said, “The truth persists.”
Wendy, Thank you for your thoughts; very intelligent analysis of the situation. And as you point out, LRH said that OTs survive best around other OTs and that an OT alone can’t survive well. Ron proved this in Rhodesia and unfortunately at the end of his life. And I never knew the point you made about how they were defending and trying NOT to settle up to his death, and then at his death they settled for tons of money. How sad is that. If DM had settled it earlier, Ron could have been on the lines as he wished and out of hiding. I hope a book or movie is made of this part of his life, the DM take over, so that it serves as a teaching instrument of how an SP operates and how to spot one and how to never let something like this happen again.
Dear Espiritu,
Regarding: “But here is an interesting question for Scientologists: If a young guy (or gal) showed up one day and said, “Yeah, it’s me, Ron. At least my name used to be Ron. Anyway, I’m back and I’m here to straighten out this mess and get the show back on the road.”, …..would you be inclined to listen and look or would you write him or her off as a nut-job or usurper.”
Not only would people in general regard him as a nut-job, just for good measure, DM would have him declared just in CASE he or she WAS Ron.
I think that if this event occurred DM would be personally helpless. Every person who I have ever met who has met LRH (before he became extremely ill) has described him as Mike did….”larger than life”. I’ve also heard “bursting with ARC”, “VERY up tone”, and ” a laser sharp mind”.
The actual “nut job” would no longer be dealing with a somewhat confused senior citizen who was gravely ill.
He would be dealing with the senior-Tech-terminal-anywhere and the being who build what Miscavige stole and is now desecrating. I think that people would listen. Miscavige would disappear in a hurry.
But this is all an interesting speculative dream. It’s up to us.
Finally got round to listening through. GREAT interview. The interviewer Bill was very well informed which makes for a much more enjoyable listen. “I guess when you become a whistleblower they are not that happy about it”. This was priceless – Bill must be English to the core to put it this way – your response was hilarious too. Still smiling…
Hi Mike, I’m not sure if anyone else is having this issue, but while I am trying to listen to the frst clip, the second keeps automatically starting and makes it impossible. Do you have them up elsewhere? I’d like to hear the interview.
Paste URLs into browser, right-click to your HDD and play the MP3s.
https://www.mikerindersblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Mike-Rinder-HOUR-1.mp3
https://www.mikerindersblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Mike-Rinder-HOUR-2.mp3
Paste URLs into browser, right-click SAVE AS to your HDD and play the MP3s. It might also play straight off the browser.
Excellent interview, Mike- you rock!!
Fantastic interview MIke! Well spoken, informative, cool, calm & collected. Great job! Thanks for all you do!
I only have time to listen to the first half today. I’ll listen to part II tomorrow. It is ironic that if Miscavige still had you as “church” spokesperson and let you do your job, he most likely would be less vilified than he is. Talk about a foot bullet. …And thank you VERY much for taking him up on his invitation to leave that post! 🙂
Mike Rinder, in my opinion no one has ever been a better spokesperson for the spiritual philosophy-religion-subject of Scientology. You are at least as good as Heber was in his hay day. In fact you are still the best spokesperson for the subject. Thank you for continuing to wear that hat. Thank you for doing the GREAT service of differentiating between the works of LRH and this renegade organization that the COS has become. I can’t tell you how much I personally appreciate this.
Is there a way that I can copy this clip as a file and just send it to people?
Highly worth listening to these radio interviews. Mike, you are in top form !
✩ 😀 ♥ ❀ ♫ ☺ ❀. ♥ ♪ ☼ ♪ ☼ !!
Thank you Michael Rinder, for another scintillating interview. You tell the story in such a way that that makes it possible for us, (your friends) to be there right with you! But especially appreciated, is the demeanor with which you seemed to regard the little guy – who, as we know – just has to bellow (unceasingly!) from his apple box!. Jeez, you must have been, and probably still are, one of the most irritating causes of his by now considerable headaches, that he just does NOT have an answer to! Lovely stuff, Mike!
Fabulous interview, Mike. And Kudos to Bill for setting the stage so well.
I came away with three conclusions. One is that if you have no hidden agenda it’s easy to tell the truth.
Two is that your personal understanding of the situations regarding scientology technically and organizationally is exceptional.
The third conclusion is that one can restore acceptance of the subject if one has points one and two in.
Really nice interview Mike.
Les
Wow Mike – what an excellent interview! You are a superior spokesperson – even better than Tommy Davis and Karen Pouw put together 🙂
You come across so sane and they were a total joke – Ms Pouw is mainly just a name caller..
Thanks Mike – my under the radar cohorts appreciate your efforts! It’s refreshing to hear someone talk about Scientology and the current state of affairs in such an easy to receive manner.
+1
WOW, listened to both tapes.
EXCELLENT !
“Well, um … let me put it this way … um … he’s a sociopath ….” LOL. (I think I got the gist of what you said, not an exact quote.) Your description of how Miscavige came to manipulate himself into a position where he controlled Hubbard’s communication lines, and made himself out to be the one person to take credit for everything, made up or not, is instructive.
Your description of how you were told to dig ditches is instructive, too. The way you described it, and the way you said it leaves no doubt that there was no intention other than to degrade you. Dictating to the society what it can and cannot do, what it can and cannot hear, doesn’t sound much like bringing freedom.
Thank you Mike!
Compelling interview Mike. I was fascinated by a few things you said at the end. I agree with your conclusions – 100%. Your insights are always fascinating. (So wish you would write a book…… or get Marty to write your story ?)
Excellent interview! Bill Padley did a terrific job; he had great questions and he allowed you to fully answer them, elaborating as you wished. Bill is truly a great interviewer.
And you… well, I think it is difficult to give a 45-minute long interview and be able to provide answers and information about this subject in a cogent way and in a way that can be easily understood by anyone.
But you did it! It was just excellent. Perhaps not having to worry about stepping on land mines, or lying to protect the sociopath in charge made it easier for you. But still, you sounded totally relaxed and gave perfect answers on point. I loved it!
Great interview Mike hit the nail on the head. Keep it coming.
Hey Mr. Rinder.
Thank you so much for speaking to people about the actual person who is/was L. Ron Hubbard.
The internet haters always try to make Ron so one-dimensional and “evil”. Complicated, yes. Cold and hard hearted toward humanity. Never. Just the opposite.
Thanks for fleshing him out for the people.
Indie8
If you’re interested in seeing LRH fleshed out for people, here’s 1 hour one-on-one interview, in England circa mid-60s of: “Introduction To Scientology – Exclusive Interview With L. Ron Hubbard”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Kd1GwRiFNU#at=197
Hello Savage one,
YES! So true!! I was in Div VI for a lot of years and I saw this numbers of times a day, every day while we screened it for the public.
I wonder when Tony Hitchman is going to come out. He’s in some kind of hot water with OSA over being connected with that Reed Slatkin ponzi scheme. They have a tight leash on him, even now.
Tony looked like an automaton in that 1966 video and even though a Scientologist, some of the questions he posed to Ron made Hubbard mentally gasp, trying to immediately bend the truth, then lie, then obfuscate until the next question. In slo-mo, you get opportunity to see his mind grind for the proper evasion and lies. Amazing how mundane he was in the interview; at the height of his so-called inner power as a thetan. These years later in retrospect he looks weak, afraid, deceptive, about as charismatic as those infamous tomatoes he audited.. Incredible how many untold thousands of people bought and ate his fiction as members of his authoritarian enterprise.
Great comment. “He was larger than life in many ways. He was a big man in many ways, and when he walked into a room, you knew he was there.” (Something like that, with additional reflection on Hubbard’s wide ranging interests and conversation.) One of the greatest damages to Scientology has been the absence of genuine interest in the individual. Average chess players play to win. Really good players play for the interest of the positions, and when you lose to one of the really good ones, you don’t feel like you lost, you feel like you gained insights. There’s some great truth in that, maybe I’ll figure it out later.
David you lost a whole country. From” Independant” to “Free Scientologists” now” I like that word: Free.
http://scnil.org/english/2013/08/21/grand-tour-of-the-indies-2013/
Mike, Your open hardheartedness and sincerity , natural high ARC and honesty, make you the greatest public relations speaker in this GALAXY!
lv T.O.
I agree with Oracle!
Mike,
Listened to your interview. Enjoyed hearing your perspectives, especially about the no “organized church” bit, which I agree with. Others have left for good with the same views.
Have a couple questions for you since you knew Ron personally back in the day.
When you were the main spokesperson, how did you handle press questions about Ron’s promised return in 20-25 years to resume his work? Would you answer differently now?
Knowing him, do you actually think he had the capability of returning?
The reason I ask is so many of us (both in the SO and public) went “all in” with our lives, careers and finances on the expectation that there would be more one day. I’m old OT7, new OT7 and an experienced auditor with a decade of stats to show. Done it all. Know many people personally from the Apollo days and the original GO. I was factually promised so much more early on in the 70’s.
And yes, I’ve read Marty’s books on this. Interested in your views.
Just call me very curious.
Forever Lurker
FL _ I was never asked that question. I guess in some respects I believed that would be the case, though I never saw anything written by him that specifically stated that he would return in a different body, though there were certainly rumors about him having left instructions about how he could be identified. Perhaps they were true. Do I think he has the capability of returning? Not in those terms. I believe that one lives for more than one life with more than one body. But the fact is, after this long, he has not “returned” as “Ron in a new body.” And I place great credence in what Sarge said about the later years of his life. There are simply too many other facts that align to the notion that he was NOT in fact in good shape and certainly was not “causatively discarding his body to continue research that would be hindered by a body.” If this was the case, there would have been a LOT more detailed hat write ups and turnovers and farewell messages — even a film or video. A lot of things I took as “gospel” from the time I was young concerning the infallibility of LRH I no longer see that way. Including this idea that he could knowingly postulate a future body and identity and return with full recall of his last lifetime.
I share your same opinion on this Mike. If he had been causatively doing it as they said at the Palladium, there would have been better hat writeups, messages, a film of him or something. From what you and Sarge say, he was in bad case shape and bady body shape and even mental shape in the months before he died. So we need to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps and move on up a little higher with our own knowingness and our own search and doingness and living etc.
Thank you for your honesty.
I believe Sarge too. He’s a good guy and without an agenda.
I came up with the identical conclusions that you did.
C’est la vie.
FL
Mike,
I do not mean this reply as a polemic, or to deny your particular reality, sincerely, but when it comes to the denouement of that lifetime I have two differing views to the state of being of Ron Hubbard, than what Sarge relayed to you. One was communicated to me by Annie, who witnessed as much if not more than any other.
She, unequivocably, stated that Ron Hubbard had told her directly he had no “plans” to return in a body, to this venue. No agenda to arrive back, a la “save the day”, “resume command”, etc. He had completed the work he set out to accomplish to provide a workable means, a technology of application of the premises of the Axioms et al, to aid beings to recover the awareness of themselves, their own native abilities and to play a better game in their own estimation.
Scientology as a subject and technology of application, is a means. Not the end. The being that had that body, with the name L. Ron Hubbard, is a being, not God. No perfect being, there isn’t ONE.
Jim — you are entitled to your opinions. I think you place too much emphasis on conversation with Annie that you say happened, but don’t match the physical universe.
IF what you are saying it true, what was the point of building BV. It is NOT a “museum”. And Annie was there. Why was 30 million dollars waster building a home that she knew was never going to be used?
And why is there no clearcut, indisputable turn over from LRH? Why is there no message to Scientologists from LRH? Why was there no Ron’s Journal that put Annie in charge — done on video?
Why is there no fully written up OT IX and X? There was time to write Battlefield Earth and Mission Earth but no the OT levels or Super Power?
These things just do NOT add up. Especially if LRH had NO intention of returning as you say (and I do believe this, that matches with what Sarge says).
Anyone could have predicted that with no clearly expressed, indisputable statements that the turmoil that ensued after LRH’s death and the power struggle would have happened. Annie was a horrible victim of that. WHy did that happen?
I know Annie was astonishingly loyal to LRH. Perhaps blindly loyal. After all, she STAYED under the Miscavige regime to her death. Not because she liked Miscavige (I know for a FACT she did not) but because she thought it was the right thing to do to not betray the trust LRH had in her. And by the same token, I believe she also shared the view that she would NOT disclose unflattering information about LRH to ANYONE. It is the mindset that everyone in that bubble has. It is SO prevalent that she went BACK after blowing. She chose that and whatever she may have told you was within that context of unreality. If she HAD left and spoken freely without fear of consequences it would have a lot more weight.
So, I don’t know what your two differing views are. I didnt say I thought LRH WAS returning. When I was in the SO I did and it was a line that was run pretty heavily. I guess your point is that you are saying LRH was in great shape and knew exactly what he was doing at the end of his life? If so, that just doesn’t add up.
I defer to Mike on LRH’s state of mind. That’s a whole other subject about which, I know not.
Just saying that I FELT that Ron was saying that WE have to take over the reigns and take full responsibility for our own state of case and advancement. And here we are. Doing just that.
“No agenda to arrive back, a la “save the day”, “resume command”, etc. He had completed the work he set out to accomplish . . . ”
Jim, thank you for your story. I like hearing those tales.
So LRH was “on post” for about thirty years (’50-80), creates no bonafide OTs, then flies off to parts unknown. The rest of us are supposed to be “on post” for a billion years, per his dictums, indentured servitude, doing all the heavy lifting to clear the universe for the next countless lifetimes? How is that right? We’re all the same being, same spiritual fabric, if you will, and all have the same rights. I put in my thirty years. I finished my work too. I think I’m gonna fly off and have some fun as well.
My point: the “denouement of that lifetime” as you put it that was told me around ’86 never made any sense or gelled for me. If what you report was true, it should have been memorialized in writing by the man himself, if only as a courtesy to us who worked so hard and sacrificed so much too.
My philosophy: “If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.”Killing the Buddha” means killing or wiping out one’s fantasy image of the guru, while keeping all the knowledge or wisdom you learned. Nothing is owed. The truth, or wisdom, should always be a free commodity.
Mike,
I can’t speak for DM’s boondoggle on the BV rebuild. I wasn’t there when he decided to tear down the home that LRH had, and build the “museum”. I do know for a fact that Annie told him that LRH was NOT coming back in a body. As to Annie objecting to this waste, I can’t say. I can say she objected, to no avail, on earlier wastes. One in particular was the New Year’s Event for 92. It cost just under $1,000,000 to stage that thing at the Shrine. Annie said to me “if LRH knew about this heads would roll”. I wrote it up in a KR. I was eventually declared for this.
Annie was loyal to LRH. She had her reasons for going back and they had much to do with that loyalty. She made a decision. She lived, and died with it, right or wrong, for that time and under those circumstances.
When it comes to it, who is to say what is a “proper” way to leave a body for a person, any person, let alone a Scientologist, including L. Ron Hubbard. I don’t know of anything in the subject that I have ever taken as being the prescribed method of death, acceptable for say some arbitrary case level; an OT is allowed to die this way, a Grade IV is acceptably able to leave the body that way and so on.
I watched my father, not a Scientologist, one night try very much to die at the home he was born in. He went as far as “releasing”, the bowels, and barely a pulse. He came out of it, and lived another couple of weeks.
I don’t judge the efficacy of the technology of Scientology in my life, by the way somebody left their body. My gains don’t turn on another’s. Bodies die. Including L. Ron Hubbard’s.
I’ve seen people “will” the death of the body. That they do, doesn’t diminish anything they accomplished in their lives. Why should it for L. Ron Hubbard?
Are we, as Scientologists expected to have the body die in some way that is “legitimate” to validate some unspecified something?
I don’t think so.
The problem with responding to your comments is that one thing becomes something else and the original point gets lost.
Now you seem to be implying that whatever I originally commented that you objected to (and STILL not sure what your “differences” were) has now morphed into something about how I judge the effectivness of Scientology technology based on LRH’s state at the end of his life? Really? And your response to my questions about why the omissions at the end of that life is no response except another anecdote about how Annie said an event in 1992 was wasteful?
Or are you in fact agreeing that LRH was not in good shape at the end of his life — physically or case wise? And that this doesnt effect your view of him or his technology? In which case, what did you differ with me about in the first place?
I honestly cannot tell WHAT point you are trying to make other than “Annie told me this, and it proves something” — though what it demonstrates isnt really clear, at least not to me.
My personal opinion is that you should stop trying to express your opinions based on the hidden data line of “Annie told me.” You appear to believe it gives you some special insight into things because you were once married to her and she told you things, when you were married to her and were both in the Sea Org. On aggregate, from 1973 to 2007 I probably spent more time with her than you did. And I was her direct junior for a LONG time on special project answering ONLY to her and she hand-trained me as CO CMO CW etc etc. Admittedly, I was not married to her. But then again, she didnt divorce me either.
To Mike re LDW, “My personal opinion is that you should stop trying to express your opinions based on the hidden data line of “Annie told me.” You appear to believe it gives you some special insight into things because you were once married to her and she told you things, when you were married to her and were both in the Sea Org”
“Admittedly, I was not married to her. But then again, she didn’t divorce me either.”
Touche Mike! + 100
There’s a really simple solution. There is only one OT VII, and it was issued by LRH. Do it, then re-read all the books. (I saw this crap coming when Forever Lurker posted, but I’m so goddam popular around here I shut up.)
Forever Lurker,
I couldn’t agree with you more: IF you meet the Buddha on the road.
And also, that whether Scientology works or doesn’t has SFA to do with L. Ron Hubbard saying it does or doesn’t, or how he died, or what he’s doing where, today, if anything.
You “owe” according to your own lights. Your own word to whomever you gave it to. I’m with you 100% on that and the freedom of wisdom and knowledge too.
Jim. OK. So, what again were your “two differences” with what I said?
Forever Lurker – Your statement “creates no bona fide OT’s” is false. It is unwise to predicate any argument upon “I have not seen in the whole, wide, world any [__whatever___]. The implicit presumption there is that you personally have seen everything there is to see, know everything there is to know, and in this case, are complaining about it. Or simply trolling for lulz.
Mike,
Simply put, you said ” I place great credence in what Sarge said about the later years of his life.”
I took that to mean the description relayed to you in the video Sarge made in Texas in 2011, the description put forth in Wright’s book, and presumably whatever is written in Marty Rathbun’s latest.
OK, I have two differing views of LRH’s “later years”, specifically his last year and indeed the last months, than what Sarge communicated, as relayed by the above. Sarge has his opinion, the others have theirs, and they differ from Sarge’s. You give credence to Steve Pfauth’s. I give credence to the other two, one of which was Annie.
OK, thanks for clarifying. I think I understand now. While you don’t think there is anything to be read into what sort of shape he was in at the end of his life, you still want to hold onto the idealized version that Annie told you, even though it doesnt line up with the other indisputable information that isnt based on anyone’s say-so but on the facts known to the world.
At least I get what you were saying now and as I said in my first response, you are entitled to your opinion of course. And I have allowed you to express it.
Mike,
There are quite a few things here, in your comments, I’ll take a stab at one of them, and leave the rest.
Why didn’t LRH leave explicit instructions on whom was to do what, when, where and how at his passing? I couldn’t tell you. I can tell you that he wrote volumes of policy, including the Management Series, and expected others to operate using their own good sense and those materials. Did he also have to write MORE? Apparently for some he did. For me, there’s plenty in the OEC, the Management Series and the body of work to allow me to carry on in the absence of orders from Ron on what to do now.
But that’s me.
Yeah, that’s you.
I am sure Annie would have liked something explicit and indisputable from LRH that made clear what her position and role was to be. She had a miserable existence after LRH’s death being run over by the Miscavige bus, put on the RPF, held against her will, relegated to the scrap heap and eventually dead without remorse.
So, apart from anything else, I would have liked something from LRH in his last days making clear what he thought should happen and what his intentions were, as the OEC, Management Series and the body of work just didnt cut it in my estimation and the shitstorm that ensued could have been prevented and Annie and Sarge, the two most loyal people to him of all, could have been taken care of instead of tossed in the garbage.
But that’s me.
+1 Mike.
I’m trying not to comment on every little thing but I do want to say this.
I was there when that whole 1982 debacle happened. People I knew and loved left and, of course, at the time, I couldn’t talk to them. But what I did know was that they were upset with DM throwing out Pat and Annie Broeker and taking things over for himself. Also that David Mayo was actually a good guy and that nothing could make them go back to the “official” CofS. And, that he was attacked left and right.
All I could find to read about it was that LRH wrote what he did about Pat and Annie being “loyal officers” and that they should take over.
But, with only that one order in existence, that was easily overwhumped by streams of, “this was a false order”, “David Mayo is the biggest squirrel ever” and other such statements to the contrary, it was difficult to know exactly WHAT Ron wanted. So I stayed in and, since that day, I’ve had a critical eye for things that didn’t quite line up.
For me, if I had seen exact, explicit instructions and then saw that they were being countermanded, I would have left then, after cutting down a few trees for the paper for the KRs.
And I feel your empathy for Annie, Mike. Such a loyal creature should never have endured such torture at the hand of the enemy within. Neither should you.
And that’s just me.
Beautiful post Indie 8 Million. “For me, if I had seen exact, explicit instructions and then saw that they were being countermanded, I would have left then, after cutting down a few trees for the paper for the KRs.
And I feel your empathy for Annie, Mike. Such a loyal creature should never have endured such torture at the hand of the enemy within. Neither should you.” I am with you. If I’d had proof that he wanted Annie and Pat to run the show and then saw how it was being countermanded in the 80’s, I would have left to go with Mayo. As it was, I stayed and believed the horrible Black PR that was fed us daily on Mayo at every roll call.But I heard in the end he accepted a gag order and large settlement. Anyone have any idea how much money was thrown at Mayo to keep him quiet?
Thanks, Jane. I appreciate your kind words so much.
I would like to know what happened with David Mayo also. Someone on some board mentioned that he was driving some expensive car in NYC but other than that, I have no info. Can he be resurfaced? There must be some kind of limit on how long he has to be quiet. Do you know about that, Mike? David Bowies ex-wife was ordered not to write a book for 10 years.
There is a very important thing happening here – I know I’m preaching to the choir with all of you.
Deep seated beliefs and all that, there have been epic injustices to people. Hundreds, if not thousands, have already been done – Annie, Marty, Mike, Scott Campbell, Lisa McP, etc. etc., even LRH himself, and in ways large and small. All of those make me so deeply, quietly angry.
But what I feel even more rage about, is seeing the state of the world today and the suffering people are causing themselves and others BECAUSE THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN EXPOSED TO EVEN A SIMPLE COMM COURSE. Just that, alone, could change the way the world interacts, reducing domestic problems, Gang wars, political BS, etc., etc., etc.
So, Ron wants the people of earth to be happier, healthier and more in comm with each other and, if possible, OT. He works his whole life (as many of us have done) to make that help available. In my life, I see a lot of different sides of life and of people. Many of the people in jail, on the streets, on drugs, and even people drinking alone at home with millions in the bank – who could do something about their situation if they only knew how – have been denied access to the real tech that could have helped them. THAT is heartbreaking.
Look at all the time that little midget has wasted, the resources we have had available to help people that have been wasted on his ego-enhancing BS and in punishing those who were only having LRH’s back.
IMHO, the biggest overt of all, that supersedes everything is “How many people WEREN’T reached” in the last 30 years. That, Mister Miscavige, IS YOUR OVERT.
You are in treason. Not only to the group of Scientology, but to mankind. You ARE being removed from post and we are doing it. Pack your things. Be ready. We are coming. We are here…and not all of us are Anonymous.
Seriously, DM. Are you still reading? Get up off your ass and start packing. Don’t forget the scotch. You’re going to need it.
“So, apart from anything else, I would have liked something from LRH in his last days making clear what he thought should happen and what his intentions were, as the OEC, Management Series and the body of work just didnt cut it in my estimation and the shitstorm that ensued could have been prevented and Annie and Sarge, the two most loyal people to him of all, could have been taken care of instead of tossed in the garbage.
But that’s me.” Mike, well said. And it’s Me, too! I think if LRH had been in good shape before he died, he would have made lots of instructions and communications and this whole DM mess wouldn’t have happened if that had been done. And as you say, Annie and Sarge would have had better lives themselves for sure if LRH had been clear about who or what governing body was to take over and their specifics hats etc.
I’m not sure what this comment, the last one here on what you now understand, is supposed to mean. “Undisputed facts” of something. But, that’s OK with me. You have your view, and it is your blog. It wasn’t my intention to engage in this polemic. I appreciate your entertaining what I wrote and publishing it. Thanks 🙂
Mike,
LRH did say that Annie was to be the IG RTC, in writing. That much he made clear. I thought you knew that. That was one of the reasons I got declared. She wanted that post, along with the rank that LRH assigned her, and was coming out from under the initial bus that hit her, while we were together working on these things at the Int Base.
Sorry, I assumed you knew that for some reason or other. I have mentioned this previously.
So, you don’t think a Ron’s Journal that laid that out in his own VOICE would have been a good idea? Or even better, a video. Don’t you think he owed that to Annie at least? And to every Sea Org member and Scientologist in the world. You know, one of those “Hello, this is Ron and this is my message to you. Blah blah blah and I trust Annie Broeker and I leave her in charge and I want you to all do this and I have written up OT IX and X and whatever else.” The despatch saying she was IG was not enough. Hell, HE wrote the policy letter on the hidden data line. It should have been PUBLIC and broad and indisputably FROM HIM not a despatch with no name and three asterisks at the bottom.
The undisputed facts are those that I listed out in my earlier response to you. There was NO RJ, in fact there was no nothing. There was no OT IX and X or Super Power written up and ready to go, let alone through OT XV. There WAS a 30 million dollar boondoggle built “for his return” and Annie knew all about it and even worked in it getting it set up. These are not opinions or what someone said.
Mike,
I won’t argue that whatever LRH left re OT IX and X is a mystery, but I don’t know if that’s because DM or Ray or whomever, has no idea what to do with what was part of the materials left or they can’t read, or they can’t decipher his “old cuffs” or the notes, his folders, the files are not able to be used, or there is a dearth of intention or ability or, or, or…Dave is an SP and he doesn’t have any intention of seeing any of these data released, whatever data exists.
And an RJ, yeah, sure, that would have been nice. But it isn’t there. So?
What is there? The OEC, the Management Series, capable beings who really don’t need L. Ron Hubbard to hold up their pants any more. Do they?
Wow! So glad we’re having this conversation today and clearing the air about all this! Many of these questions / issues have been sitting in my “mental bull pen” since the late 80’s and I could never find anybody who knew much of anything from the inside who’d discuss all this with me. Eventually, I walked away from Scientology because I knew that many facts were being withheld from me by Int management. If only they had chosen just to be honest and truthful about everything right when it happened around ’86 and afterwards. That wouldn’t have been so bad.
But the prolonged “Watergate-type cover-up and conspiracy” by those (the One) in charge will leave a bad taste in a lot of people’s mouths once they find out about it.
For me, I’ve had years to get over it and put it all in proper perspective for myself. Kept all my case gain and not got all overly bent out of shape. Though I did have a few dark hours in the night when there were no boards like this one and no one to talk to about all my potentially unpleasant revelations.
But for others, those who have been living a myth for so long, so thoroughly, reality might hit them very hard one day. They’ll have to find themselves all over again and find out where they fit in all of this.
Just glad that we “old timers” who are privy to a different set of facts than most people, can clear the air. Or should I say clear the “bull pen.”
All I ever asked is just tell me the truth . . . and I’m smart enough, I can take it from there.
Mike, you’re dead on today. Thank you.
Hi Jim,
That’s very good to know – though I’m not sure which Annie you mean. Broeker?
Ron gave many clues that we would be on our own. At the New Year’s event at the pre-renovated AOLA in 1983, we listened to that year’s Ron’s Journal. I heard that he was passing the hat. He gave all the stats of all the orgs, including INCOMM, etc., etc. and, at that point, I KNEW that he was moving on. That he was passing his hat. I stood there in AO and couldn’t tell anyone, lest I ARC broke the whole group and got pilloried for entheta. But I knew it.
Also, what was the reference where Ron says that “You are responsible for the standardness of the tech delivered to you”? Sorry for the paraphrasing. Away from my books at the moment.
But he wanted us to know that we would be on our own in a bit and that WE had to watch the fort.
I believe that that’s what we’re doing here in the Indie field. Mike said it so well too.
I asked the same question over and over again. An old OT VIII told me that Ron had written down on the OT levels where he would go after his death. This OT VIII also said that this was secret and not on planet Earth.
As weird as the answer was, it was the most plausible one I have ever gotten regarding my question.
There are so many outpoints in all explanations. Just one has no loopholes, which is: Ron was more or less as human as every other human on Earth.
Yes I have had to come to the same conclusion, Bare Faced, that Ron was human and had human foibles and a case, like everyone else. I do think at the end he wasn’t in good shape and so may not have been able to do an RJ to us all. As for “going to a different planet” after he died, there was talk for years before here and there of “Target 2.” But I never heard a name of the place other than “Target 2.” Does anyone have more data about where or what Target 2 was?
Ya’ think? Maybe he *was* hovering in the Van Allen Radiation Belt, letting us know that “space is warm,” and since whatever is true for Ron is true not only for Ron, but for every Scientologist on the planet. And when Ron almost got hit by a speeding locomotive on Venus, well, it was true for Ron and every Scientologist. I guess he had foibles and peccadilloes as everyone, as human as the rest of us, you’re right.
Thanks for posting that interview, you are a fabulous spokesperson. I found your comments at the end of the interview fascinating regarding whether you would go back into the fold if the church reforms. The point you make about a top down hierarchical, controlling system lending itself to abuse and not being appropriate for a religion is just so spot on and a hard outpoint to spot since there really was not an ideal scene for a new spiritual activity to copy when Scientology was forming.
You communicate so well, Mike. Thank you.
Bill certainly did his homework and pose the right questions with a good comm cycle. The data given was excellent and to the point. Thank you Mike for sharing it with the many.
As to the Tommy / Sweeney outburst. Sweeney should have responded to Tommy’s screaming by saying “you’re very low on the tone scale right now”.
Hey Mike, can’t get either to play. Well they play for a couple minutes in and than both stop. Anyone else having this trouble?
Never mind, working now. I jumped the gun.
Yes, I am having that problem, Both play for a few minutes then stop.
I have tried it 4 times now. Any suggestions, anyone? Would LOVE to hear it!
Sinar: “cockroaches and flying monkeys” PERFECT ANALOGY.
Mike; as usual, excellent presentation of the real circumstances regarding Scientology and the distinction between the SUBJECT and the criminal organization posing as “the good guys”. Nothing could be further from the truth. I would go so far as to advise ANY Scientologist who is currently under the radar in the cult so consider everything the church tells you is the exact opposite of the TRUTH. The similarity and analogy of the Catholic church vs. the teachings found in the bible were SPOT ON. As someone who studied the subject and considered myself a member for many years, I want to again thank you for being willing to give interviews and speak out. During times like these, there is value in having a public voice and that voice being a credible and trustworthy one such as yours as it pertains to the *subject* of Scientology is reassuring. Many of us have perhaps experienced a 3rd dynamic engram of sorts and I think the Theta-MEST theory describes the common experience so many people have gone through. Thanks again and may you continue to speak out and help others who are in the process of “regrouping” after the potentially upsetting revelation that the church that we loved and contributed to for so long is no more.
Wonderful job, Mike! Hope to see/hear you on many more in the future.
This is a completely well done interview which shines very bright light on the scurrying cockroaches in the dark corners of the Pope of Scn and his OSA flying monkeys and dark ops. There are thousands more listeners which I’m sure are enlightened after viewing the exploding tomato on BBC shows.
Mike,
Nice interview. You have a great presence.
Thanks
Mike, I listened to part 1, but part 2 wouldn’t play. I’ll try to listen to it later today.
I’ve now heard you speak here and at the Irish (?) university about Scientology. Believe me when I say this, you may not be the spokesman for the Church of Scientology, but you are still the spokesman for Scientology. It’s important that you keep speaking out.
Mike, that was fantastic! I really, really enjoy your easy-going manner and delightful humor. Thanks for sharing this.
Great interview, Mike. As others have previously noted, you’re still the reigning international Scientology spokesperson.
+1 Same hat. Still speaking FOR LRH.
I second the motion!!
Spectacular.
Great interview, Mike! You got the word out in easy to understand concepts for the public and you granted the interviewer a lot of beingness. VWD!
Wow. Great interview Mike, I’m sure answered a lot of questions for a lot of public.