It’s SaTerraDay!
More on Past Lives: Real or Imagined?
One of the most vexing questions for me when I was in Scientology was whether past lives were real or imagined. Before I ever went in session for the first time, past lives had been solely a component of fantasy novels. In fact, until I routed onto the OT Levels, I avoided going “beyond this lifetime” whenever I could.
I was always reluctant to declare I’d lived before this life, and for as long as I could, I limited myself to looking at incidents I knew had happened since that birth date on my driver’s license. Images earlier than birth were as real as the ones I’d mock up while reading the likes of Robert Heinlein, Isaac Asimov, and Ray Bradbury. And just like those worlds I painted while flipping the pages of those novels, I could manipulate scenes at will while in session. I could just as easily take the point of view of the hero as the one receiving the sharp end of the spear through his chest. I could change and manipulate wardrobes, scenery, characters and viewpoints—pretty much anything—without any one version being more or less real than the others.
“Is there an earlier/similar incident?”
As any Scientologist who’s ever gone in session knows, at some point he will be asked to go “earlier, similar” in order to reach the “basic” on the chain of incidents he’s running. LRH wrote that one could release the “charge” and experience relief by getting back to the earliest one. I would certainly “get pictures” when asked go earlier, similar. I just didn’t know if they had really happened or were a figment of my imagination. Inevitably, my auditor would tell me to “just go with it,” or “just tell me what you see.” So I did. What was the harm, right? I figured running a few fantasies might actually have been therapeutic.
The problem was, I never developed certainty that these “past life” incidents were real. I didn’t know for sure if these mental image pictures had been conjured up inside my head or had really happened—many of them, trillions of years ago.
Science vs Scientology
Since the scientific method was developed hundreds of years ago, mocking up a clinical trial to prove the existence of past lives should have been easy.
- Audit 1000 people, concentrating on their most recent past lives. Collect as many details as possible: where they lived last lifetime; addresses; family members; profession; public records; hidden treasure…those sorts of things.
- Verify these “recollections” by going out into the field.
- Tabulate the results.
Simple, right?
Suppose our experiment showed that 24.8% of our lab rats recalled past life incidents. For instance they were able to recall past life families, where they’d lived, the schools they’d attended, etc. Would this conclusively prove the existence of past lives? The answer is no. It would be easy to assume these subjects must have lived before—that there was no other way they could have known about people, places, and events that happened before they were born.
All we could say with certainty is that the test subjects described scenes and incidents that hadn’t happened in their present lives. They might have made things up based on what they’d read and watched on TV. They might have extrapolated based on tales from Aunt Janie. We’d have to go onto step B of our experiment to see if their recollections panned out.
In my thirty-plus years associated with Scientology, I’d never heard of one person who’d confirmed the reality of a past life by investigating what they’d uncovered in session. You’d think this would have been easy for all those who attested to going “clear” last lifetime. Apparently, not.
As many have asked before, why didn’t LRH conduct a similar experiment himself? Maybe he was afraid of what actual scientific experimentation would reveal. After all, his half-baked attempt as chronicled in his book, Mission into Time had failed.
And by the way, what about the other 75.2% of test subjects who didn’t go “past life?” Did they simply receive inferior auditing or were there other factors at play?
The Body
Cellular memory can’t be dismissed as an answer to people’s supposed past life images. What if memory is stored in the brain on complex combinations of cells? And what if specific sequences of these cellular memories get genetically passed down from parent to child, much the same way as does height, weight, and hair color?
And what if a particular cellular “memory” gets recorded beside some other memory so that when commingled, the two form a completely “new memory?” Suppose these memory cells get mixed up so that a person is—or becomes—a musical prodigy without having had any formal training? Or thinks they’re a woman who’s been born into a man’s body.
Lobotomies and Blows to the Head
Whether memories are stored in the brain or some other-dimensional mind, the scientific community and I know one thing for sure: trauma to the brain effects not only memory, but cognitive function, as well. Unfortunately for many, traumatic incidents such as these happen every day.
If memories were stored “off-site,” I’d think that an upset to the brain wouldn’t affect such mental facsimiles. If the brain is simply a switchboard between the mind/spirit and the body, why do memories get lost and scrambled when its cells are disturbed?
In fact, why does something as powerful as a thetan even need a gray-matter switchboard? Why not directly manipulate the body? Wouldn’t this be much easier and less labyrinthine? LRH essentially said it was because that’s the game all we thetans mocked up quadrillions of years ago. Another answer—unsavory to many—might be: because we thetans aren’t really thetans. Still a third: because that’s just the way God created things: in his image, gray cells and all.
Strapped to the Dentist’s Chair
We can’t talk about memory without mentioning implants. According to LRH our ability to remember has been severely stunted by spending time at special “between-life” stations designed to implant harmful commands into our minds. Like, “You’re a piece of meat; Jesus was your dad; fedoras are cool; and you can’t remember anything prior to turning three.”
If this model is correct, wouldn’t it be easier to fully restore our memories by going in session and “auditing out” and “erasing” everything that went on in these stations rather than suffering up a long and torturous “Bridge.” Why can’t past life memories be restored all at once? And once they have been—presumably—why can’t we seem to remember any really cool stuff? Stuff that would reverse global warming; increase gas mileage to infinity; and fly us to Alpha Centauri before lunch.
If past lives were real, I would think that out of the billions of people here on Earth, at least a few would have recalled something extra special. On the contrary, Scientologists seemingly remember just the mundane—like how they were born on Jariix III, jilted on Quran IV, and destroyed Zebulon VI in a fit of rage after a bad haircut. Apparently, the really big, life-changing, spectacular stuff is beyond their ken. Does this inconsistency strike anybody else as just a bit odd?
The Either
Proving that memories are stored outside the body has never been proved—scientifically. We only have anecdotal “evidence”—the subjective word of human beings—on what to believe or not to believe as to whether their past life pictures are legitimate.
Just because Tom swears his “past-track” is completely real and he’s lived millions of lifetimes, proves nothing. Tom may be right; Tom may be wrong; Tom may be under the influence of a higher force; he may have spent too much time strapped to a dentist’s chair at the Implant Station; Tom may be drunk on Kool Aid. All of his friends supporting his claims still doesn’t constitute proof that he lived as Jesus’s right hand man a couple of thousand years ago. Tom can swear up and down that he and Socrates broke bread and talked philosophy together. It won’t make a difference. Tom can insist he feels lighter after every auditing session. These subjective feelings prove nothing except that talking with another individual made him feel better.
Last Words
Just like Tom, LRH couldn’t prove the existence of past lives. He told us we’d lived before. He told us where all our memories were stored. In the end, though, he couldn’t prove any of it.
Instead of involving others and going the scientific route, he created a religion.
Still not Declared,
Terra Cognita
From the channeling that I heard of LRH, in his past life before this one he was a woman who could not hear or speak, but could see. This life he wanted to stroke his ego and have the World think of him as a great man.
His stories came from the half awake, half asleep state that he was in, as he said he did not sleep very much and would use his dreams for basis of his books.
The separation of children from their parents was a way of control, and raising the kids to think along the lines of his agenda. The SP doctrine is so that those who are on the outside, or have left the cult (his words) will not encourage others to leave also.
He said that DM is pushing harder than he did when alive.
When asked if he was coming back to take over again, he replied that he did not need to, and was done with that part of his existence.
For what it is worth.
You ask if it strikes anyone as oddly coincidental that thetans only recall the mundane? No more so than Marcab being conveniently being populated with 1950’s planes and people. You had me at fedora.
There is a woman, Elisa Medhus, M.D. who channeled LRH via her son Erik who had died. It is fun to listen to, and I do believe that there are people who can contact the dead. My own belief, and having died twice on the operating table I have a whole different outlook on life and death.
For what it is worth. Dr. Medhas, said that LRH told her that the basic thing is that everyone gave up their own power to think. LRH said that he would do the thinking for them, and that they went along with it.
From the other side LRH’s message is: “Think for yourself.”
I believe that is what is happening now with those who have gotten out of the cult (which LRH called it). As soon as they started to question, and think for themselves, then there was nothing to hold them in the cult.
http://www.channelingerik.com
Well, back to watching the LRH and his “afterlife” on video. LOL.
Well f@*k me, apparently Charlie Manson has come back from the dead, gathered his flock, and ascended into Heaven.
Didn’t Charlie do some scifi-ology back in the day? Looks like he put it to good use.
Unfortunately, it looks like about 7.xx billion people didn’t make the grade.
We’re all Left Behind, folks!
Addendum to my previous post.
It’s not known if Charlie used a DC 8 for the trip Heavenward, but given his innate abilities, he probably didn’t need one.
Also, unconfirmed reports suggest that the 7+ billion Left Behind are all severe PTS. Disconnection is effective immediately.
I think LSD was probably Manson’s “fuel of choice” . . .
I believe that Stockholm Syndrome plays a huge role in Scientology . . .
https://counsellingresource.com/therapy/self-help/stockholm/
https://counsellingresource.com/therapy/self-help/stockholm/2/
https://counsellingresource.com/therapy/self-help/stockholm/3/
https://counsellingresource.com/therapy/self-help/stockholm/4/
Dave F.
There have been a number of comments citing solid research on the subject of supposed past life recollections, such as in “The Memory Illusion”, by Julia Shaw, which show conclusively that what emerges from Dianetics and Scientology auditing, are just a sort of trick of the mind, that is easily reproducible – and easily debunked as false. All the anecdotal cases that are cited, when examined, end up falling apart, shown to be examples of some mix of wishful thinking, and unintended coaxing or planting of information. If there is some more profound phenomenon at work (which I don’t necessarily dismiss, particularly having had some unusual experiences) there is no good proof of it, and Scientology certainly isn’t getting at it. It’s unfortunately an example of the sort of illusory and even potentially dangerous suggestive or hypnotic techniques involved in auditing and other Scientology training.
I had a chance to go back through old comments, and earlier this year I cited some other enlightening scientific research on the subject. The Finnish psychiatrist Reima Kampman (1976) found that 41% of highly hypnotizable subjects reported a vividly recalled past-life identity and called themselves by different names when given hypnotic suggestions to regress back before their birth. But when he hypnotized them again and asked them when in their present life they first heard about the person whose life they had described, they were able to recall forgotten incidents in which they had been exposed to information that formed the basis of their supposed past life recollection – demonstrating exactly the sort of mechanism that has turned out to be at worked in debunked cases such as that of Bridey Murphy.
Also:
“In the 1990s a series of experiments undertaken by Nicholas Spanos examined the nature of past life memories. Descriptions of alleged past lives were found to be extremely elaborate, with vivid, detailed descriptions. Subjects who reported memories of past lives exhibited high hypnotizability, and patients demonstrated that the expectations conveyed by the experimenter were most important in determining the characteristics of the reported memories. The degree to which the memories were considered credible by the experimental subjects was correlated most significantly to the subjects’ beliefs about reincarnation and their expectation to remember a past life rather than hypnotizability. ” see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_life_regression
In my original, older, comment, I also write a bit more about my own experience, and the possibility that past life recall experiences in Scientology could hint at some real and profound, though almost certainly quite different, phenomenon:
https://www.mikerindersblog.org/scientologys-answer-to-perfect-recall-the-file-clerk/#comment-167394
“These subjective feelings prove nothing except that talking with another individual made him feel better.”
Thanks for coming by Tera or who ever you are.
My gut feeling is that I am not my body and will keep on trucking and playing the game. To me that is still the most logical explanation as to why people are so willing to die for causes, that they know deep down there is more to come. And also explains “the Mozart phenomenon” and even transgenders and homosexuality (we’ve all been both genders before). Now am I SURE of all this? … Uhm … no.
Terra, to answer one of your questions … Out of the hundreds and hundreds of past life incidents I ran as a pc, only ONE of them I can recall as having any historical significance … participated in the Boston Tea Party.
Oh … and Terra … Implants or not … Fedoras are ALWAYS cool!
“… participated in the Boston Tea Party.”
Pretty good, Joe. But I recalled hanging out with Greek philosophers. 🙂
Me too. Soccy, Ari, Platty and the crew guzzling espresso over at the Taverna cafe! We could never agree, even after months of arguing, whether a tree falling in a people empty forest makes a sound or not (of course it does) … Too much Ouzo in the espresso …
Funny!
But let’s be serious – not only is there no sound, but no tree and no forrest! It’s all a dream. 😀
Joe, people are “willing to die for causes” because of our instinct to be willing to sacrifice ourselves for the good of the group – which in our original family tribal groups, meant survival for the genes we shared. Besides being behavior that anyone can observe for themselves in the natural world, modern sciences such as bio-psychology have proven how this works, and can demonstrate if with very elegant experiments, including now even using high-tech imaging that that is starting to reveal how such mechanisms work in regions of the brain.
To me, perhaps the greatest and most obvious failing of Hubbard and of Scientology, is to account for the hard-wiring of the brain, instead trying to imagine it as a simplistic calculating and recording machine. Hubbard inevitably ran up against problems with that model, most evident when he tried to address some early on with has abortive “genetic entity” theory, which he then just abandoned to go down the rabbit hole of alien implants and body thetans in an attempt to explain the phenomenon that his original thesis failed to.
I don’t entirely discount the possibility of something like past lives and reincarnation, but Hubbard and Scientology failed to approach them in any meaningful or useful way, instead using Ouija-board like parlor tricks to induce false (but impressive, and even convincing) “memories.” I suspect, that if anything, rather than individual reincarnation (which appealed to an egoist like Hubbard) that any mechanism at work will turn out to be more of a holistic collective or species mind (which echoes another ancient belief competing with reincarnation) that also explains such phenomenon as how butterflies can engage in complex navigation to the same areas generation after generation; that sort of model at least readily explains the phenomenon encountered (including by Hubbard, in his contortions) of seemingly overlapping or duplicate past lives, and is thus a more useful model, besides being harder for a psychopath or a totalitarian organization to exploit to the detriment of the individual.
It’s crazy. I knew it was crazy. And yet I still believed it.
Lately I’m rolling around thinking about the population growth. “How many people around me are first timers?” And ” who among us are fellow walking dead?” Not everyone has had the pleasure-spiked-with-pain of walking the great green earth in past times – the math doesn’t work out.
My conviction of living before is at a stark offset with my uncle’s saying, “it’s my first rodeo”.
For anyone that wants to attempt a grand synopsis of science and religion- I can probably pull half a dozen bonafide past life characters together that you could recognize who they are/were in past lives. But maybe people aren’t trained to see this way… Call me crazy 😉
What about higher dimension elevation? You know, where rebirth can happen if you want it to or you can pass up to higher dimensions / heaven realms.
New religion coming right up.
Not.
M8,
NOTHING, in Scientology, “works out” . . .
Dave F.
It’s a bit Freudian, but past lives was perhaps a subconscious acknowledgement from the Master to his fiction author days where he had to use creativity to generate character and plot ideas for his career: Writing. In a way, he found a way to merge his creativity in writing with his ‘serious pursuit’ of religion and grant others this ability of make-believe.
Past-lives – Where you can be an Indian war chief, cowboy on the run, or knight of a Scottish clan for a few hours while in session.
I agree. I am sure that there are, for example, Star Wars fans who would love to believe that they once lived as the vice admiral of a flying saucer fleet 750,000 years ago in a galaxy far far away. As to the whole cellular memory thing, I am willing to accept that but I feel that further research needs to be done.
Aaaaaahhh, past lives…. Or how to avoid to live present life ?
Just try to imagine how many Jesus, Napoléon or Ramses there are in psychiatric hospitals…
Is it true that people always remember being a king, a hero or a witness of huge history events ? Never a stupid farmer in the middle of nowhere (no offense to the farmers)
Yes, among the known inconsistencies of supposed past life memories, are that they overwhelmingly tend to be about famous or exciting characters – with many people reporting “memories” of the same well-known historical figures – and are usually the same gender and race as the individual reporting them. There are exceptions to that, but the “memories” generally follow limited, expectable patterns like that, showing that they are just a phenomenon of imagination – and the limits of imagination.
In one interesting research experiment, people who had reported past lives, were hypnotized and asked what the source of the past life was. They then typically recalled some material, like a story or a movie, that they had been exposed to and forgotten about, and was therefore below the level of consciousness (a phenomenon known as cryptomnesia).
Such supposed memories generally result from a suggestive or hypnotic state, or something similar. While they often seem to based on material the individual has been exposed to, they also demonstrate the sort of create imaginings we experience in our dreams.
Interesting discussion about the validity of past lives; However, none of it comes close to answering the basic question as to whether ‘past lives exist or not’ beyond mere opinion. Yet, the discussion richly exposes the “fact” that auditing was an inadequate, contrived and flawed vehicle for accurately discovering past lives (even if they do exist) and a dismal failure at rehabilitating “thetans” to a God like status. When LRH in all his narcissistic delusion stated that he was — the Buddha returned to finally free humanity with this fabulous tek – that hubris alone should have been enough to dissuade anyone from falling for the notion that auditing could reveal one’s past lives.
The truth is auditing is more like a trip to the Twilight Zone where imagination rules.
“There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man’s fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call the Twilight Zone.”
I tried to go past track, last life or even earlier, when the auditor asked for earlier similar going down a chain of events, I never seemed to find something before this life, I wasn’t resisting, I was a pretty good pc although rather boring since there never was anything “hot” I did in my life, Nothing popped up in my mind with certainly, no pictures, no nothing. I guess I was a “black case”, or maybe I lacked an imagination. LOL
Hubbard had a mystic plausible answer for everything, black five cases, LOL
Gib,
You said, “Nothing popped up in my mind with certainly, no pictures, no nothing. I guess I was a “black case”, or maybe I lacked an imagination.”
OR, maybe “past lives” don’t exist and are simply BS !
Dave F.
Great thoughts Terra!
I thought Hubbard had researched his past lives by visiting different locations in the Med where he had hid money waaay back in year zero?
They never found any real money. They just dug a bit in the sort of places that humans have inhabited for thousands of years (just the Roman civilization alone, lasted for twice as long as Europeans have been in North America), where you can hardly dig a garden without turning up something hundreds if not thousands of years old – and found a couple of old coins. Typical of Hubbard’s supposed “science,” something trivial or coincidental was falsely treated as proof of a claim or theory.
“Confirmation bias, also called confirmatory bias or myside bias,[Note 1] is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one’s preexisting beliefs or hypotheses.[1] It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. ”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
I think it’s obvious that reincarnation can’t be what its most passionate adherents want it to be — a continuation of “self” beyond physical death. That’s because too much goes into what we call “self” that we already know is not continuous from before our current life — all sorts of personal history and psychological development. Psychology recognizes development of “self” in stages — personality disorders stem from certain lacks during specific very early developmental stages where the self forms. Not past life, this life — yet if untreated, you get these narcissistic and “borderline” personalities.
Whatever carries forth from those who have died is so much less personal and specific than what we call our self — at best an imprint, rather than how we think of “entity.” Psychological patterns can seem like entities to us, but that doesn’t give them actual independent existence. We just sometimes “wrestle with our own demons” internally, in a metaphorical rather than literal sense. But culture, art, groups and institutions continue in ways we can’t entirely analyze. Groups do develop dynamics (please, I’ve never been a Scientologist, I’m using the term in the ordinary non-CoS way) that can seem mysterious. I read about a study where apes developed a cultural aversion to climbing for bananas due to a traumatic event created by the experimenters (pouring water on them when they climbed). They swapped out all the apes one by one until there was not one remaining who had actually experienced the traumatic event, and yet the group aversion to climbing remained. I don’t think these patterns are supernatural or paranormal. I think they fit within physical reality. Yet physical reality itself is well beyond our complete understanding, and how psyches interact collectively is far too complex to reduce to anything resembling Newtonian physics. So people use stories and metaphors to try to express their experience.
How I look at “past lives” is that people who “remember” them have found stories that are meaningful to them. Maybe there are pieces of history in there — human history formed and affects all of us, whether we are aware of it or not — but that doesn’t mean that there is a linear continuity of discrete entities. What we call a “self” is a collection of patterns that has been shaped by myriad historical, cultural and social forces. So reincarnation can be a metaphor that helps people think about such patterns for themselves — figure out which stories are important to them, and which patterns they’d like to end.
Whether there is some kind of eternal entity underneath selves, I don’t know. What I do know is that if there is, it is not the sort of thing you can prove beyond all alternative explanation, because it could not possibly be the way people think of it. As Terra said, you can go into an imagination of history from any angle or point of view. What you see is shaped by what you think you know about that history. (I find it interesting how many people have such memories about, or relationships with, fictional characters.) It’s just story. You choose who you identify with. Whatever is underneath “selves” — if there is some kind of “spirit” — is not as individual, personal or historical as that. (We are not even the same person now as we were when we were teens. What we think of as self grows and changes, sometimes even seems to die and start over, within the life we know.) So if I wanted the detail about life in a certain time period, I would trust the imagination of an archeologist or historian far more than a “past life memory” from anyone lacking the hard fact from the physical universe. If I’m considering people’s favorite “past life” stories, it wouldn’t even occur to me to think of it as a source of historical fact. It’s about relationships and stories that are meaningful to the person. It can be interesting to ask, “what is it about that story that resonates with you now?”
(I’m just talking of the psychology of these ideas. I’m sharing what I found to be a saner, more useful way of framing Hindu, Buddhist & New Age ideas about reincarnation that I used to believe more literally — in case it’s useful.)
Even though you have never been a Scientologist, you are very close to hitting on Hubbard’s original OT VIII.
Best of luck
“Even though you have never been a Scientologist, you are very close to hitting on Hubbard’s original OT VIII.”
Oh dear. I doubt that’s a compliment, but… thanks. [grin] Even though it’s the injustice of the institution, and how it has trained people out of their natural empathy and compassion, which fires me up to visit these ex-Scientology sites, I sometimes come across odd overlaps of my thinking and that of Hubbard or Scientology in the non-institutional sense. Maybe because I like scifi. Hehe.
Cat, regarding all of your theories about past lives that you went over … subjected any of them to the scientific method yet to see if they are true?
Joe —
Did Hubbard perform any actual scientific methods to his silly theories? No?
Food for thought. Just sayin’.
Oops..left out a word. Meant to say “to test his theories”…
The total irrelevance of Self as current Self while maintaining a belief/awareness/understanding of being a never ending part of the continuum might be a definition of a “Master”. Such a person would draw a following and could be a teacher if he or she so desired.
Concerning past life memories, Scientology really is Johnny-come-lately. I have not had any myself, but it is not uncommon among people that practice meditation, including some of my friends. It is not the focus of meditation nor the thing to be obtained, though, nor are any supernatural powers.
The real treasure is the discovery that you are totally powerless, a spontanuous happening, beyond your control. You have no idea what makes you think, act, feel, even breathe … you just experience it as it happens. But beyond all thoughts, concepts, happenings … arises a love for the source of all this, its stilness that is empty of all content, its peace, its love that is not dependant on any circumstance or absence of circumstance, that has no requirements. It just is. That is a treasure that completes everything in life.
Ludo, you summed up the essence of nondual understanding in two concise paragraphs. Bravo! Too bad Hubbard never got close to this. This is it; there are no hidden meanings; there is nowhere to go but here, now, in this moment.
“Too bad Hubbard never got close to this.”
Agreed. He was into the “game” of life and set the goal of Scientology as the “playing of a better game.” And he recognized certain valid principles in that game, for those who are still playing it.
I believe the nondual teachings probably have fundamental truth to them, but so does Scientology in its own sphere. For me it acted as a huge stepping stone on the road to truth.
Three years ago I went to see a medium. Not a single soul knew I was going. I made the appointment from a pay phone. I gave only my first name. I parked two blocks away so nobody from the office could see my car and run the plates. I left my wallet under the seat. I stayed silent throughout and kept a face that would make a professional poker player proud.
Within 2 minutes the medium told me the name of my wife who had just passed away. Within 20, he got three more deceased friends and family members, complete with names (two of them unusual ones) and VERY detailed personal information not available on the Internet or anywhere else.
He made a CD of the entire session so I could replay it later. Trust me, I gave him nothing to work with. Yet he got it all.
If any of you skeptics out there have a reasonable explanation for all this, I would love to hear it!
I’m sure the ‘medium’ is a long standing $cientologist who is at least an Oh Tea Ate.
To begin with, I suspect you’re leaving something out – such as how you found and got in contact with the medium, to begin with – that gave away more information than you realize.
The tricks of “cold reading” are well known (and none of the supposed mediums, has even been able to demonstrate their abilities in any sort of test):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading
Derren Brown has done some great work demonstrating how cold reading and other very convincing-seem tricks that people like mediums use, actually work, such as:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6uj1ruTmGQ
It’s also possible that a so-called medium who is a good hypnotist put you under without you realizing it, gathered all the details they wanted, gave you a post-hypnotic suggestion to not remember what had happened, and then snapped you out of it. Hubbard was an accomplished hypnotist, recounted by his sci-fi friends as being able to do similar sorts of things, and used suggestive and hypnotic elements in auditing (which, as discussed, is how false past life memories are elicited); I suspect people who have done much auditing, are significantly more prone to hypnosis than average.
Hi Gus,
Your story is fascinating and certainly true for you.
Unfortunately your story is, to the rest of the world, only an anecdote. It may be true, it may be false, but that doesn’t matter. What matters is that the scientific method demands repetitive testing and unbiased scrutiny. The results must be repeatable by others.
These cold reading people have NEVER been scientifically accepted. My best guess is the “psychic” was very good at his art, but there was nothing supernatural about it. Still, that is a heck of a cool story.
Now, I’m “curious” . . .
Scientology says “if it’s true for you, then it’s true” . . . Is Scientology saying that “lies” and “falsehoods” don’t exist ?
If that is the case, how can Scientology ever “legitimately” punish Parishoners for what they say or believe ?
According to Hubbard : http://www.scientology.org/what-is-scientology/basic-principles-of-scientology/personal-integrity.html
QUOTE :
PERSONAL INTEGRITY
BY L. RON HUBBARD
What is true for you is what you have observed yourself. And when you lose that, you have lost everything.
What is personal integrity? Personal integrity is knowing what you know. What you know is what you know and to have the courage to know and say what you have observed. And that is integrity and there is no other integrity.
Of course, we can talk about honor, truth, nobility—all these things as esoteric terms. But I think they would all be covered very well if what we really observed was what we observed, that we took care to observe what we were observing, that we always observed to observe. And not necessarily maintaining a skeptical attitude, a critical attitude or an open mind—not necessarily maintaining these things at all—but certainly maintaining sufficient personal integrity and sufficient personal belief and confidence in self and courage that we can observe what we observe and say what we have observed.
Nothing in Scientology is true for you unless you have observed it and it is true according to your observation.
That is all.
L. Ron Hubbard
END QUOTE :
scientology ≠ a skeptical attitude, a critical attitude or an open mind
Not only Scientologists believe in past lives. If you combine that belief with the scale of this universe, the very likely scenario that we are not alone, and have been visited, thereby validating the faster than light speed which would be necessary to travel it, all sorts of scenarios can start to be possible.
If someone wants to believe in the “usual”, that is up to them, but it is not my thing!
Check this out for an interesting take on the subject; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnXxC-nVsJY
The thing about this one is they are really trying to be objective and not jump to conclusions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wvbEQytuQk
Gotta question or two, hehe
1. Who runs INT these days
2. Where is DM these days? (Country, city, org, etc.)
3. Who knows?
IT FREAKING WORKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stay with it!
https://www.wikihow.com/Remember-Your-Past-Lives
Is it allowed to state in the comments that Once Born is a moron?
Haydays–
Um, why exactly is Once Born a moron??
Hi, Simple Guy !
BIG question . . . Where is SHELLY MISCAVIGE ???
Dave F.
Yes, this question must continually be screamed from the roof tops. Thanks for reminding us Dave F.
WHERE IS SHELLY MISCAVIGE??
David Miscavige, you HAVE to answer for whatever you have done to that woman.
I wish Mike and Leah would focus a whole show on that one question.
I saw Shelly last April in Topeka. She’s doing well, divorced now from DM, married to an auto mechanic name of Hubert … Says she’s very happy and wants to remain under the radar, no publicity … (note: the CoS paid her TONS to stay quiet)
What the…???
Can someone please elaborate on this?
Gotta be a joke.
IF Shelly divorced DM, there has to be a PUBLIC Court Record of that . . . NO RECORD, then it’s BS . . . A search should be easy. After all how many “Miscaviges” could there be ?
The OLDEST religions in the world preach past and future lives. If there would be nothing to it, it would not be the belief of billions of people.
Fads don’t make it far.
The old “flat earth” idea died a quick death, afterall… ? #logic #studyit
Stars in my eyes —
People believe in past and present lives because they choose to. Doesn’t prove there’s “something to it”. Come on, now. It’s called faith…nothing more.
While in, and specifically during NED(since I attested ‘clear’), I must have gone “past life” at some time…. More likely, I “ran” some scifi story that read on the meter for some unknown reason…. Never could remember which stories I “ran” later, of course. ( Must have “blown” them in the process, I suppose. ) Meanwhile, a few years ago, I happened on a story of real scientists testing past life recall of kids younger than a certain age(perhaps 5). Evidently, some DID recall events that had happened before their births that they wouldn’t have heard older people talking about or other mundane sources of info. Of course,I’ve forgotten where that rabbit hole started, but it was likely from one of the ex-SCN blogs within the last 9 years.
My opinion is that Tubby got some of it right about past lives, which only means he stole from a good source and didn’t scramble it too badly that one time
“A bad and ‘ensnaring’ doctrine”
Sorry, somehow this above correction was to a post that did not post.
My post was not anti reincarnation.
Saturday rolls around once again and I thought I would look in on this day’s usual “A-J Festival” and of course I haven’t been disappointed! (And of course I know you are all waiting with baited breath to see if I comment! Of course you are! Haha!)
It seems these Terra articles attract all of the A-J cases there has ever been in Scientology or those who are aware of Mike’s blog anyway, but of course this one of past lives would attract the most interest – of course it would – it is the most frightening for all you A-Jers! No matter all the “reasoned” and “convincing” responses and comments you give here you all know deep down that you have lived previously and don’t wish to recall the unsavoury incidents you have taken part in, among the many other individual reasons you may have. So you can um and argh and rant and rage and “seek proof” all you like, but you know deep down it is true.
As for you Terra, what were you doing all those years receiving auditing and covertly steering the session to avoid or belittle your own incidents or your dubbed-in incidents? Seems a bit daft to me. Either give up straight away or let the auditor control the session, surely? Saying that I don’t know what your C/S and auditor were doing letting you get away with that sort of stuff, which sort of proves my point about the downgrading of the tech under Miscavige. It wouldn’t have happened if I and my peers at that time were around to help you. And you would have gotten the gains you obviously missed out on, once we had clipped you around the ear (a la Miscavige) ethically. Tell you what, why don’t you knock off the continous overts on Scientology as a subject and go and find a decent auditor in the field and get your case handled. I think there may still be hope for you yet as I get the feeling you somehow reluctantly spout out all the nonsense that you do?
Sadly, these pronouncements from an assumed position of authority are the ugly habit of fundamentalists. Everyone who doesn’t see things the same as you is somehow inferior and to be labeled — “PTS” or “NCG” or “failed case” or any of dozens of put-downs. And you don’t even understand how such pronouncements come across to others.
Imagine if every time you said scientology works a fundamentalist christian announced that you were a messenger of the devil. They KNOW this is true. They would tell you this without irony and command you to take Jesus into your heart, repent your sins and kneel in prayer in church. And you would look at them like they were speaking martian and pity them a little.
Fundamentalists — whether Christian, scientologist, muslim, jewish, sikh, mormon etc etc are similar. They always firmly believe they and they alone have all the answers. Everyone else is merely a “wog”, “infidel” or “the devil.”
Well said Mike. Very well said!!
That someone is a fundamentalist doesn’t necessarily disprove their beliefs, though.
It doesn’t prove their beliefs, either.
Fundamentalists think they have all the answers to everything. It’s so very tiresome.
Oh my, you’re back again Marildi. Won’t even comment on your comment but isn’t great of Mike to post your view points after you have disparaged him time and time again over “you know who’s blog”. And NO I won’t be specific now because I was specific before about your nasty comments.
Yes Ms. P. For the lies & crap Marildi said about Mike R. on that psycho blog she is the lowest form of human scum.
I wish we wouldn’t use the word “scum” to describe human beings, whether we like them or not, agree with them or not. It’s such a dehumanising word and I have a visceral reaction when I see it being used.
I agree that Mike is by far the bigger person for posting Marildi’s comments after the horrible things she has said about him elsewhere on the web.
Sorry Andrea but I don’t modify my posting because someone has a psychological problem. If you have physical reactions to words you should go into therapy.
Best,
Wynski
Wynski,
YES, Psychiatric or Psychology care, NOT “Can Therapy” !
Dave F.
Indeed Andrea. People should not call people scum, it is rude.
That being said: Andrea meet Wynski.
I’ve been reading the blogs for two years and have never seen marildi say anything “horrible” about Mike. Plenty of disagreements, to be sure.
Richard, her attacks of Mike are on another blog…
She is a coward as well as a scum.
Wynski —
I’m replying to this post of yours because for some reason there’s no reply button on your reply to Andrea Garner.
I usually enjoy & chuckle at your posts. Having said that, Andrea is a smart, kind and sincere person. Don’t know if you ever read Tony’s blog, but she’s a regular contributor who has much too add to the blog’s community. She’s fiercely against the abuses of the cult.
I assure you — she has no “psychological problems” nor needs to go to therapy just because she disagrees with your post.
Please understand that I’m just trying to explain what a good person she is. We all don’t have to agree on everything to fight against $cientology.
That’s all I wanted to say. Keep givin’ em hell at Mike’s! Like I said, I usually enjoy most of your posts.
Cheers.
What a nice thing to say! Thank you, Katherine. I know I have no right to tell people what they can say but it’s just certain words that are so depersonalising. Scum, vermin, filth. They take away a person’s humanity and then they can become fair game. Again, it’s not my business and I probably shouldn’t have said anything but there are plenty of other names we can call each other (if we really have to) without reverting to degrading terms. I’m sure Wynski is a good person 🙂
Thank you very much once again for your lovely words.
KatherineINCali, anyone who has an adverse physical reaction to a word does have a psychological problem. It is ipso facto basically.
No, but given that various fundamentalists believe thousands of different, conflicting, things, the chances that any one of them could actually be true, all things being even and in the absence of real evidence (all fundamentalists, and beliefs, claim anecdotal evidence which they treat as conclusive) are probably well less than 1%.
If (or when) you’d been born a couple of hundred years earlier, you’d probably have believed something with the same sort of conviction you now have about Scientology, wouldn’t you? But wouldn’t you have have been wrong, based on what you now believe?
When it comes to past lives and reincarnation, there are at least 4 major theories – individual reincarnation, return to a collective, no perpetuation, and eternal afterlife – and Hubbard and Scientology’s theory is a variation of one of those, so its raw probability of being true is pretty low if not minuscule. Incidentally, the collective model inherently accounts for phenomenon encountered such as overlapping past lives and multiple people remembering being the same historic figure, the sort of things that dogged Hubbard’s work with an individual (and egotistic) model and required him to come up with contorted elaborations, and so is a superior theory.
PM: “If (or when) you’d been born a couple of hundred years earlier, you’d probably have believed something with the same sort of conviction you now have about Scientology, wouldn’t you? But wouldn’t you have been wrong, based on what you now believe?”
I agree – living in a different time period you probably would have different beliefs. The same thing would apply if you had been born in a different geographical area. But are you saying, then, that all of them must be wrong?
I recently read a book titled *The World’s Religions*,described on Google Books as “the definitive classic for introducing the essential elements and teachings of the world’s predominant faiths, including Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam — as well as regional native traditions.”
The author, Huston Smith, was a highly respected religious scholar, and was in turn a follower of Christianity, Zen and Sufism for more than a decade each. Those experiences along with his scholarly studies led him to the conclusion that even though these major religions have varied over the millennia – and vary from each other in many of their most basic principles – they each fit the spiritual needs of their respective cultures as well as some individuals outside the culture. And each and every one of them has added to the cumulative wisdom of mankind.
I’m not a Scientology fundamentalist, but in my experience Scientology does help people in their spiritual growth, at least some of them, and I do consider that it has added to the world’s wisdom and knowledge of the mind.
You’ve probably noticed that other fundamentalists besides Scientologists have posted here, and that they are not usually mocked and belittled. The posters who belittle Scientologists, whether fundamentalists or otherwise, may not realize it but they fit the definition of “bigot.” Wouldn’t you agree?
bigot: “a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.” https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot
Don’t take it seriously, marildi. It’s SaTerracal Day.
Nice one, Richard.
SaTerracal Saturday – good satire and good fun. Where else to opine on the State of the Universe? We’re heading toward the Porch of Infinity or the Fifth Dimension as mentioned above. For all our good fortune, Terra will never run out of topics from Hubbardology. It’s a welcome break from the many personal stories which need to be aired.
O wise one, I commend you. Would that we all could take such a philosophical approach. 😉
And that’s always a good day.
Hey Marildi —
I’ve called out a bunch of the recent non-Sci fundamentalists. I’ve said that their “certainty” in their faith and thinking that they have all the answers to everything is the same as hardcore $cientologists.
No religion has all the answers. Anyway, just sayin’. Cheers.
If I was alive 150 years ago I would have tried Theosophy, Spiritualism or Occultism. “Madame Blavatsky? Who’s that? I want to meet her!”
When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars
This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius
Age of Aquarius
Aquarius! Aquarius
Balletlady – Fond memory! I saw the play “Hair” in NYC in 1970. I’m not sure if I was stoned when I went – probably
Love it, balletlady, one of my favourites. ?
Marildi —
Don’t know if it’s just me or if other people are having the same issue: there seems to be a lot of posts that don’t have a reply button. That’s why I’m replying to this post.
Anyway, down thread you told me you’d never defended pedophilia.
When I replied to Wynski, I wasn’t saying that you in particular had done such a thing, especially since I’ve never seen any post where you had.
My reply to him was in general terms, in that only some sick son of a bitch would defend pedophilia.
Okay, Katherine, thanks for that.
Regarding what to do when there is no reply button, just click “Reply” on the email notification of the comment you want to reply to. That will bring up a page with a reply box at the bottom, where you can type your reply. Then, when you click on “Post comment,” your reply will to go the right place, under the comment you’re replying to. (You can find it in whatever way you use to find any other comment.) Try it out.
Brilliantly stated!
Well ok Mike, but then does this not work both ways? Here we have an article from Terra, accompanied by the usual supporting comments, which essentially is saying “Scientology (or an aspect of it) doesn’t work”. Now when I say or imply that it does (work) then this makes me a fundamentalist in your opinion, but then why not Terra? Terra one could say, quite validly with the logic being used here, is then a “Fundamentalist Anti-Scientologist”.
Strangely enough the same logic would and should also work with Disconnection, as I pointed out in a recent article on that. To wit: if one’s family were all anti-Scientologists yet one family member was constantly entreating the rest to become Scientologists, would they not (eventually) want to disconnect from the Scientology family member? This can and does happen in all group aspects of life. Now I am only mentioning this to make plain the logic here and I don’t want to get into an argument on Disconnection, nor am I supporting it, but it works both ways does it not? You say I am implicitly labeling Terra from a position of authority (?), yet you then go and label me as a “fundamentalist”. So it is alright for me to be “labelled” but not the other way round.
Clearly you are having some difficulty differentiating things — assume identities are not identical.
Someone espousing THEIR view is not fundamentalism unless they are claiming theirs is the ONLY view that is correct and all others are wrong. That is fundamentalism. That does not describe Terra. And you label people based on your own concepts and ideas of life “You are PTS/NCG/bypassed case” etc It’s a view that is ONLY held true among those who believe and live inside the scientology bubble. Fundamentalist as a label is a generic term recognized across all fields of thought.
As for your second “argument” concerning disconnection. This is the EXACT argument the church makes. “Everyone has a right to disconnect”. True. The problem with disconnection is when it is ENFORCED. When someone else tells you you have to disconnect from friends and family you dont WANT to disconnect from. And convincing them this is “for their own good.” Read Quailynn’s post today.
Myself I used to be a trained auditor. So I know those argument on “failed case” and “No case gain”
But let me remind you, foolproof and all, that Hubbard says in CS series 93 “There are no NCG, there are no failed cases, only failed auditor and CSes”
Most of the auditors have awfull TRs. They have considerations on the PC and the PC perceive it. Its auditor’s code break.
And the new thing which entered the scene with Miscavige was the use of security checking against the PC. PC’s case have been ruined. Miscavige is the worst ennemy of scientology. If there is only one SP, it’s him.
I am not a fucking fundamentalist, I hate them. Most of scientologists are kind of stupid, stupidity drive to fanatism, this is how humanity goes. And the anti-scientologists don’t know much of the subject they opposed, they just oppose.
The subject of scientology is not the only subject, far from it, but it’s worth being studied and practiced. I have learned other therapy (visualisation… etc) but they all need a good comm cycle meaning first a real TR0, not evaluation or invalidating for the patient.
What any therapy wants is to restore freedom and self determinism on the patient.
And there are so many things which are universal in scientology.
But It has been such a malpractice since the last 30 years that the real subject has been buried.
Of course I would never accuse someone of being an “A to J” that’s eval/inval.
Concerning Past Lives, on New OTVIII it says that a PC have not audited his own time track and that with the new OT levels he will be able to discover it !
I believe anyway that this “OTVIII” is not from Hubbard.
But concerning past lives, I have 40 years ago audited a lot of standard Dianetics, and on some PC, pictures of past lives was clearly looking like “dub-in” and on some other it would sound very true.
Otherwise there are poof of past lives in many other practices and religions.
FG said, “And the new thing which entered the scene with Miscavige was the use of security checking against the PC. ”
Boy, you are a newbie. El Con started that in the 60’s. Where were you FG?
I am sorry Wynski, i did scientology during the seventies and I NEVER recieved a sec check nor I wrote any OW. I did OTIII in 1982, I was a class 4, and never I had received a sec check.
Eligibility started in 1982. And it’s a pure non sense entirely opposed to basic philosopphy which says “dont check before the fact”
The criminal is Miscavige not Hubbard.
And thank you for the “insane comment”.
It seems you have at heart to objectively defend Miscavige.
Hmm. . .
So, basically, we have Dianetics & Scientology, created in the early 1950’s by L. Ron Hubbard, an insane criminal, which was subsequently was taken over, in 1986, by David Miscavige, an even more insane criminal . . . What could possibly “go wrong” ?
I believe that David Miscavige suffers from Napoleon Complex which has been further “twisted” by the “brainwashing techniques” and indoctrination of Scientology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_complex
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11821572/Small-man-syndrome-really-does-exist-US-government-researchers-conclude.html
Miscavige uses the sec checks to intimidate or “weed out” any possible “threat” to him, in his warped mind, and maintains iron-fisted control over them !
BTW – Miscavige is only 5′,1″ ( He should have been a Jockey – LOL ! )
https://tonyortega.org/2014/04/03/we-asked-david-miscaviges-tailor-for-his-exact-height-and-heres-what-he-told-us/
Dave F.
FG, I back you up. I did the (entire at the time) bridge in the 70s. That is also when I was on staff, both in a Class IV org and briefly AOLA. The only time I heard about a sec check, and it was very rare, was when someone had really screwed up, usually a staff member, and wanted to get back in good graces. Don’t recall any particulars anymore but, it was rare! Weird how that changed, eh?
Irrelevant babble FG. Hubbard started using sec checks as a punitive action in the 60’s. Eligibility was done by Hubbard. DM had nothing to do with anything in that area in ’82.
Your almost complete lack of knowledge of the workings of the church shows that you lie about your involvement beyond anything other than backwater
Other insane comment by FG, “and the anti-scientologists don’t know much of the subject they opposed, they just oppose.”
Some of the most ardent anti-scamologists are the MOST trained. And by Hubbard himself.
“Most of the auditors have awfull TRs. They have considerations on the PC and the PC perceive it. ”
No generalities here, only spelling errors :))))))))))))))))))))))
So glad you decided to chime in and brighten the conversation again as usual IP. You never fail to disappoint!
FG —
I’m replying here because there’s no reply button on your other post.
You stated, “The criminal is Miscavige, not Hubbard”.
Are you kidding?
Hubbard hid from the IRS for years to avoid paying taxes that were owed. That’s a crime.
Based upon tons of personal accounts, he ordered people to physically abuse others. Is that not a crime?
He put some helpless, innocent child in a goddamn chain locker. Is that not a crime of abuse?
He was a bigamist. That’s a crime.
He ordered the activities of the Snow White Program to infiltrate government offices and steal documents. Another crime.
He had people held against their will. Another crime.
He tried to frame Paulette Cooper for a bomb threat. Another crime.
I could go on and on but what’s the point?
Miscavige is a criminal — that’s for damn sure. But let’s not pretend that Hubbard wasn’t.
Well said Mike….when I was a young child, like 4 or so, at a parade when the bagpipe marching band came by, I felt an overwhelming tug….I started to cry…I wanted to go with them….when I was old enough to start contemplating life at 8 or 9, I always felt like I’d been here before, and I didn’t even know what reincarnation was. I do believe in it, for many reasons and experiences, but when my grandkids, ages 8 to 16 ask me what I believe, I tell them what I THINK…but that I don’t know for sure, and if anyone who tells them that they DO know for sure, they should run in the other direction. No-one knows for sure. THAT is the only real truth.
You’re a piece of work — in the worst possible way.
Seems to me the only “wins” you’ve received from the scam is arrogance, self-righteousness and fanaticism.
Katherine,
Yes, Dio is “arrogant”, fanatical”, and “self-righteous”, typical of Scientologists.
Have you also noticed that he never answers “direct questions”, but always reverts back to the “language” of Scientology and merely re-states his position from a different “angle” ?
When I used “direct quotes” from LRH’s “24 Logics”, his only response was to attempt to put me on the “defensive” ( good luck with that – Like LRH, I always “attack” – LOL ! ) and then to “talk down to me”, using Scientological “catch phrases”.
Dio knows absolutely NOTHING about me, my level or area of education, my line of work, or my level of expertise in those areas . . . He NEVER will, either, for “obvious reasons”, when dealing with a Scientologist !
In my humble opinion, Dio is no “home-grown” Scientologist . . .
Dave F.
Hey Dave F,
Actually, my reply was to Foolproof. I didn’t see a comment by Dio. They’re not one and the same, right?
Yeah, the diehards often avoid answering any direct or difficult/uncomfortable questions.
I found it quite embarrassing that Foolproof would assume anyone is “waiting with baited breath” for his comments. I mean, please, spare me.
Katherine,
As far as I can tell, Dio, Foolproof, and Marildi are thre separate people. However, it would be easy for one person to use multiple email accounts here and appear to be different Blog members.
Dave F.
I’d LOVE to see SHELLY MISCAVIGE on Leah & Mike’s show . . . David Miscavige might “drop his body” out of SHEER TERROR alone ! ! !
“…why don’t you knock off the continuous overts on Scientology as a subject and go and find a decent auditor in the field and get your case handled…”
I’d love to believe you, but I could never find even one scientologist who could recall just one past life with enough detail to prove it. I know a lot of people who, per the “tech,” should be able to, but can’t. That is the problem with Scientology as a subject, not Miscavige.
Although Miscavige is still an asshole.
Foolproof. Wonderful comment. I love that you are here to remind us that OSA is on the job. Scientology tech is full of lies. That does not mean I did not get benefit from it.
I appreciate your alleged ability to demean a contributor like TC who IMO has written many thought provoking and valuable articles. I am waiting with baited breath to read one of your valuable comments that will enlighten us all.
Nice try, but do you really think I could make the negative comments about Miscavige (which I do often) and be working for OSA? I could say the same things but leaving off the DM comments. So think before engaging keyboard. Are you now enlightened?
Nice try, but do you really think I could make the negative comments about Miscavige (which I do often) and be working for OSA?
Are you serious? You actually think that holds any water? You are ANONYMOUS.
OSA plants say ANYTHING to inveigle themselves into the arena they are ordered to infiltrate. ANYTHING.
“Do you really think I would do something illegal/immoral and be working for OSA?” Of course nobody has EVER seen or heard of anything like that, right? (“Let him die” PI’s on Ron Miscavige ring a bell?) But it would be impossible for anyone to say something about Miscavige on a blog and be working for OSA…
This is perhaps the most ridiculous thing I have read from you.
When you stand up publicly with your name and photo in the media and criticize Miscavige, I will believe you are not a troll. Hey, come on The Aftermath… We have invited anyone and everyone to try and present scientology’s position/response. How about you? You are willing to speak in defense of these ideas, now including disconnection.
This is a real request. We cannot get anyone in good standing, so how about it?
Bam. Mic drop on that one, Mike.
I love it.
“OSA plants say ANYTHING to inveigle themselves into the arena they are ordered to infiltrate. ANYTHING”
And you should know Mike, the stories I have gathered about your OSA ops are amazing.
When my investigation is complete I will publish the lot.
It is interesting that anyone who quotes standard Tech is attacked relentlessly on this blog.
Foolproof is not in the Church and is not an OSA troll.
He simply points out all the rubbish you pass off as facts.
You used to be really good when this blog started now you write like some pathetic OSA operative yourself.
I mean this silly TV show will go off air when the ratings drop.
I did watch it and the drivel and nonsense was hilarious.
Better than Cheers or SOAP ever was.
No wonder Marty broke away from you, you see he is Tech trained!!!!
Well, well . . . It appears we have TEAM of “Moles / Trolls” here on the Forum.
The funny thing is that they are so easy to spot – LOL !
Dave F.
“Interested Party”,
You wrote, “Foolproof is not in the Church and is not an OSA troll”
How do you KNOW that ?
Dave F.
Interested Party —
Excuse my French, but are you fucking kidding me?
Are you seriously referring to Aftermath as being “silly”? You’ve got some kind of nerve to talk about people’s horrific and heartbreaking stories as “drivel, nonsense and hilarious”.
What the hell is wrong with you? Have you no compassion or empathy for those whose lives were damn near destroyed by $cientology?
Then you go on to talk about Marty as if he’s someone to look up to. What a joke. That guy is a lying, backstabbing asshole of the highest order. He’s done a complete 180 on pretty much everything he’s ever said about $cientology. He’s betrayed people who did nothing but help him out. He’s thrown damn near everyone under the bus. And for what?
You say, “No wonder Marty broke away from Mike”….as if that’s a bad thing. Good riddance. Marty’s out of his mind and I’m quite sure Mike has no interest in being in Marty’s clown car headed for crazy town.
Please tell us what “rubbish Mike passes off as facts” or how he “writes like an OSA operative…?? This one I gotta hear…just for the lulz.
Don’t know where you come off, but based off of your post, Mike is a better person than you can ever dream of being.
Yep, I.P. Alanzo, marildi, et al sticking up for the pedophilia in the church over at Marty’s blog.
Only ONE kind of person attacks those who expose that kind of crime. Only one kind…
Wynski —
Damn right.
I haven’t read Marty’s cesspool that he calls a blog since he made a complete 180 about almost everything he’d ever said about $cientology, started telling obvious lies & betraying people who had helped him when he needed it.
There are no adequate words for how despicable and full of shit he is.
The word is “Scientologist” . . .
Katherine, maybe you will listen to reason, and hopefully Mike will allow me to defend myself this time against Wynski’s false accusations.
First of all, I don’t think the subject of pedophilia even came up on Marty’s blog, so this is yet another time Wynski gets things wrong.
It did come up on Alanzo’s, and neither Alanzo nor I – the two who were named – were “sticking up for pedophilia.” Just the opposite.
Foolproof, It’s obvious that you visit this site regularly, not just on a random occasion. Marildi too. What is it that keeps you coming back, daily I suspect, if this site is the sad, A-Jers dumping ground? I think you agree with much of what you rail against. People don’t visit sites that are truly pathetic to them. They visit sites that draw their attention and keep them interested. Glad to know that you and Marildi are daily readers and can’t stay away!
Actually the prime reason I come here, and sometimes visit Ortega’s site as well, is to find out if Miscavige has been deposed and all the paraphernalia (IAS, Idle Orgs etc.) he brought along with him, so that I can get back to work helping people with probably the scores of thousands of other Scientologists in the same boat. Honest injun! The second, perhaps then secondary reason, is that I do find it interesting the misinterpretations of the technology that some people have and I am still wearing my old Qual hat, albeit from a distance, unlike many others as evidenced here, who have turned turtle and are swimming in the opposite direction now.
You don’t need to wait for Miscavige to go. You can get back to work right now helping people. Team up with Les Warren or the Lembergers. If you know you have the only answers to save man you are being a hypocrite to not use them now.
Oh don’t worry about me, I am doing my bit. Amazing how I am now transformed into a hypocrite as well as OSA, troll, fundamentalist etc.
Of course, if you were “doing your bit” you would WANT your name out there so people who want your help could find you. Every other person that audits and posts here uses their real name. Not you. I suspect your only “bit” is to post on blogs. Have more faith in your tech…
I and my friends are already overloaded, but thanks for your promotional tip.
Riiight…
And you are afraid of using your name because?
Well, I posted a reply to your question of why I was not using my name, but you were obviously afraid of publishing it because of the rather straightforward ancillary comments I made.
I only recall you offering up “well, half the people who post here don’t use their real name” — true, and apart from you and Marildi none of them try to claim they are wanting to let people in the church know there is a “safe landing place” for them with people who still love the tech. And I told you this is disingenuous because they have no way of contacting you or even knowing if you are real. I didnt see any explanation for that. Why don’t you try again. There is very little, if anything, I am “afraid” of publishing.
You on the other hand are afraid of even using your name. You should be more careful about the insults you try to toss…
“And I told you this is disingenuous because they have no way of contacting you or even knowing if you are real.”
You deleted my answer too – for the apparent reason that you couldn’t refute what I said. How disingenuous is that, Mike?
If I’m right I’m sure you’ll delete this comment too, but to refresh your memory here’s what I wrote:
——————————————
marildi says
November 19, 2017 at 8:52 pm
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
I would say readers are capable of determining the validity of a comment, whether or not the poster has given their full name and history. They probably know only too well that there are reasons for being incognito.
And I do think it’s a mistake to invalidate the tech, if we want CoS readers – both active and inactive ones – to believe the other things being said are true.
You yourself have said that people should be allowed to believe in and practice what they want and that your only purpose is to put an end to the abuses. I’m with you on that.
————————————
There you go. You NEVER answer the question but just keep going back to your mantra.
They probably know only too well that there are reasons for being incognito.
In your case, I do not know the reasons and that is why I was asking. You and Foolproof keep trying to assert the great service you provide of letting people in scientology know there is “standard tech” available outside the church. I agree there is value in that. I appreciate it when Les Warren or Dani Lemberger post here or anyone else who practices scientology outside the church. They do NOT tend to get into arguments with other commenters. They offer helpful comments. And they use their names and promote themselves so like-minded people can find them…
Neither of you do so. Yet you claim you have been declared, are out of scientology, and in the case of Foolproof (or maybe it’s you) “a full dance card of pc’s”…
This is the inconsistency I am asking about.
Don’t bother responding with another non-responsive “I think people know why” — this person does not and that is why I am asking you. Repeatedly.
Mike,
BULLS-EYE . . . You “hit the nail on the head” !
These two, in my estimation, have been “assigned” ( by “guess who” ) to infiltrate the blog and create as much havoc, as possible.
As the Owner of this blog, you have the “nuclear option” available to deal with “SP’s” (“Subversive People” ) . . . A couple of clicks and “bye-bye” !
I thought I would state that “tech program” myself, so that they can’t “sling mud at you” over the issue of “banning” someone, Mike !
Dave F.
“There you go. You NEVER answer the question but just keep going back to your mantra.”
There YOU go again – as if you didn’t know why we don’t give our names. Okay, I’ll spell it out – and challenge you not to delete this one. The answer is we don’t want to draw attention to ourselves – just like all your other posters who don’t give their names! Duh!
This is epecially true of those who haven’t been declared – which I haven’t been and never said I was. But I guess you needed to throw that in order to support your “argument” – an attempt to discredit me as usual. Neither have I said that I audit, but that was needed too as “support” of an otherwise non-existent comeback.
I highly doubt that at least some of your posters aren’t so dense that they don’t see these things – they just don’t dare to say so. Why? Because you run this blog as an authoritarian – a crafty one who lets just enough get through to not give it away. The CoS lost a very clever propaganda operative when they lost you.
I stilll think you are sincere with regard to your campaign against the abuses of the church, and I’m glad you’ve taken sides against them now. But as for the tech, your statements aren’t consistent, to say the least, and your agenda isn’t clear. What is obvious is that you won’t allow comments about it that might be a little too convincing of its worth – unless the poster is a friend or an OL of some kind that you don’t want to put off.
With the others, though, you jump right in immediately and basically black PR them. It always makes me wonder how you could have forgotten – or not-is – what it’s like not to have a level playing field and the right to defend yourself and your point of view.
Just like Miscavige treated you, albeit in spades.
Foolproof,
If the shoe fits, wear it . . .
Our “truths” about you are a consensus and, thus, “true” for all of us . . .
By the same token, your “truths” are only “true” for you, but we see them as BULLSHIT!
Dave F.
Foolproof, your op terming here may feed your need for a worthy game but it really isn’t a good advert for the supposedly warm, fuzzy and spiritually enlightening scientology you represent. You seem easily triggered by those here who, for whatever reason, see little or no value in the tech. There is no sincere effort made to try and understand why those you engage with believe the way they do. No use of logic/reason. You respond to ad homs with more ad homs. Where is the warm and gooey scientology? Where is the ARC, ‘what is greatness’, ‘people’s questions’ or #19 of the code of a scientologist? Perhaps my expectations are too high. Maybe you aren’t the best example of what your indie brand of scientology has to offer. That’s a shame, if I may say, considering how often you keep banging on about how fantastic it supposedly is. ?
There is some truth in what you say, but then why don’t you state that to those who start off with the ad homs? I do not see you writing such to Wynski or Brian or whoever. As for being “easily triggered”, do I not have the right to defend something that I believe (if it were properly done) is beneficial (to all)? True my original message about Terra’s article was “strong” I suppose but I have many-a-time stated things (relatively) benignly and still been attacked, and quite vociferously as well, but as I say, you do have a point.
As for being “easily triggered”, do I not have the right to defend something that I believe (if it were properly done) is beneficial (to all)? True my original message about Terra’s article was “strong” I suppose but I have many-a-time stated things (relatively) benignly and still been attacked, and quite vociferously as well, but as I say, you do have a point.
One of the problems with your position is that it is ultimately based in belief. You have nothing to support your claims other than religious faith. As you say, you believe the tech is “beneficial to all” when “properly done”. Well that’s lovely, but if specific claims are being made then at some point you are going to be pulled up by critical thinkers and those of a logical persuasion. Sorry, but that’s just the way it goes.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable for scientology, dianetics (or any other therapy or -ism) to be dismissed as pseudoscientific bunkum in the absence of any verifiable evidence to the contrary.
You may see that as a hateful or even bigoted hurdle when trying to reach people with your message, but it has inherent value. Once you have mastered the subject of logic, you will be much more effective in how you think, how you evaluate data and how you communicate your ideas to the world. You’ll be able to see through weak arguments, biases and faulty reasoning. It will help you to have a greater understanding of others, of differing viewpoints, setting a much better example of a benign, more intellectual brand of scientology that perhaps the world is crying out for.
mwesten: “Once you have mastered the subject of logic, you will be much more effective in how you think, how you evaluate data and how you communicate your ideas to the world.”
That advice should also be given – even more so – to some of the posters who “communicate” with Foolproof. Don’t you think?
Nonsense. Have you experienced auditing? It has nothing to do with “faith”. If you haven’t experienced auditing then the negative comments about it are simply bias and in fact “faith” that it “doesn’t work” because of some other bee in your bonnet about Scientology or Hubbard or whatever. One receives the auditing, feels better, talks better, gets on better with others, solves problems etc. etc. It has nothing to do with “faith”. The results are empirical and real. So don’t make out it is “faith”, absolute nonsense.
Nonsense indeed. If someone goes to church, sings hymns, prays to Jesus and as a result feels better, happier and is more able to deal with life is that faith? Is there something wrong with that? Scientology has such a dim view of faith because it tries to pretend it is above and beyond “faith” it is “tech”. But the tech gets results about on a par with faith. So what’s the big deal about faith? It’s not a dirty word. In fact Scientologist have blind faith in L Ron Hubbard and the e-meter. They just pretend that’s not true.
“But the tech gets results about on a par with faith.”
Can I quote you on that, Mike? 🙂
Be my guest.
So, Scientology is a “religion” without “faith” ?
I can feel that Tax Exemption beginning to disappear !
Nonsense. Have you experienced auditing? It has nothing to do with “faith”. ..One receives the auditing, feels better, talks better, gets on better with others, solves problems etc. etc. It has nothing to do with “faith”. The results are empirical and real. So don’t make out it is “faith”, absolute nonsense.
What’s so wrong with faith? Faith can be a hugely powerful healing agent. Take the placebo effect, for example. Psychologists have argued for decades whether the therapeutic effects of a psychotherapy is anything but placebo. Whether the therapist/patient relationship and expectation of efficacy are actually the primary healing factors. Some suggest that therapy itself is the actual placebo (eg. Grünbaum, 1981, 1986; Jopling, 2008).
This doesn’t negate any effectiveness of a therapy in treating specific disorders (which can be tested) or, in the general case of auditing, helping someone “feel better” about themselves.
But auditing is not used as a general “feel better” therapy. Nor is it used to treat specific mental disorders. It is used as part of a rigid religious system to obtain very specific results – results that have not been effectively demonstrated beyond the odd anecdote. Explain to me what empirical evidence exists for the state of clear. For OT. What is there, outside of simple “faith” to verify that one has achieved “freedom from overwhelm”? Or that one has handled “the primary reason for amnesia on the whole track”?
There is nothing wrong with having faith. Beliefs. But at least have the courage to own them and admit that’s what we’re actually dealing with here.
I’m not a daily reader anymore, but I still sometimes like to let lurkers know (who may be on the fence) that not everyone who has left the church shares the same considerations about Scientology as a subject. I think that is a much better way to get them to see the light.
oh for fuck’s sake. Don’t try to claim any higher motives. You don’t just show your true colors, you fucking parade them.
GO AWAY.
Everyone here does not share the same views; lurkers know that already without your voice of alleged advocacy. I think you and Foolproof are great proof that the posters here are more beneficial voices for lurkers than you are. You inadvertently add support to the views expressed here. Keep it up! I LOVE that you can’t stay away!
I meant that very few who post here say anything positive about the tech. Lurkers, especially those still involved with the CoS, should know that there are people who have left the CoS who still find the tech workable – and that it is readily available outside the church. I believe this is one of their main concerns and that it keeps them from getting out.
If we really want the truth to be known let’s relay the whole truth, from all perspectives or people will doubt the other things being said.
Yeah but neither you nor Foolproof identify yourselves so you don’t provide anything like that. If you gave your real name and history you might be able to claim this as a legitimate reason for taking the positions you do. You don’t so you can’t really offer this up can you?
Now you are suggesting that people still involved with the CoS may not know that there are people like you and others, on the outside, who find the tech workable. Please. That indies are operating outside the CoS has been well-known for decades. So you are a comforting voice for people still-in who are unaware that there are indies? That is hysterical, really.
marildi but you claim that the church attacks those who try to deliver the tech outside of the CoS and thus it is dangerous to do so. So, how is it now “readily available”?
Marildi,
Considering that this is Mike Rinder’s blog, just exactly how much “support” for ANY aspect of Scientology did you “expect” to find here ?
The so-called “workable tech” is merely the “residual effect” of Brainwashing.
In my opinion, there are 3 “Kinds” of “Pro-Tech” people here on the forum :
(1) Those that are suffering from varying degrees of “Stockholm Syndrome”.
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Stockholm+syndrome
(2) Those that are so embarrassed, by the huge sums of money they were “duped” out of, that they attempt to “justify” it by convincing themselves that they “got something for their money”.
(3) Those that are active “Moles / Trolls” for the “Church” of Scientology, seeking to infiltrate and disrupt Mike’s blog.
Dave F.
Yes, “stick around” and we will steadily, inexorably, and assuredly, “pry those cans” out of your hands !
I am so happy to see Foolproof and Marildi engaging on this blog. This is a really good thing.
They are here, and they are probably very intelligent people.
At some point the scientology blinders will tilt away for a second, and the light of truth will enter. That may be all it takes.
Wow, Miraldi and Idiotproof on the same day.
Yo OSA,
Are we smiling yet? Tell Dave to pour a round for the crew!
I could go the rest of my life without listening to FoolProof and Miraldi’s badmouthing posters…. Please ?
Yes. They don’t help this blog. I don’t need to hear their insane arguments. These asshats badmouth Mike here and other places. Why let them post here? Why give them a platform to stir shit?
We don’t need them in order to discuss and examine and expose.
IRL I wouldn’t spend a second listening to them. Skipping over their nonsense on this blog is fine but I’d rather they didn’t have the platform. They don’t deserve it.
“Yes. They don’t help this blog. I don’t need to hear their insane arguments. These asshats badmouth Mike here and other places. Why let them post here? Why give them a platform to stir shit?”
Oh but Secretfornow, that is the greatness of Mike – permitting them to post here. Ultimately shows their true colors.
I don’t recall “bad-mouthing” Mike. I have argued with him certainly.
Foolproff,
“What’s true is only true for you” . . . Remember ?
Dave F.
Foolproof —
You’ve never talked shit about Mike on Marty’s foul blog?
Nope. Sorry to disappoint you.
Why would I be disappointed? I was just asking.
I’ve read a few comments here and on ESMB where people said you’d posted some pretty nasty stuff about Mike, so that’s why I asked.
All their babble gives me a migraine….I am a never in……..who can see, hear, read, learn…….the mind fuck continues for some, how sad is that.
Past lives seem to me a reasonable deduction from present phenomena. I rejected Hubbard’s Scientology nonsense when I left in 1989. The Buddhist sect that I participate in rejects most of the past life Sutta’s in Buddhism. These were probably added later due to Hindu influence in about 200AD. Hubbard put together a belief in past lives with western drama built around Theosophy. There is no way that past lives can follow the cyclic pattern made popular in the west by him.
OT 8 had very little to do with past lives anyway. I think Xenu is a real phenomenon but by another name. Hubbard got it all wrong.
Overpopulation causing havoc on inhabited planets might be a common theme. Look around. Earth population in 1800, 1 Billion; in 1960 3 Billion; today 8 Billion. oops The Pope needs a revelation from God that birth control is okay.
Fly around the globe at night Richard. lol
And that helps the Pope, how?
Though that doesn’t mean that YOUR Buddhist sect is more correct than another Buddhist sect.
We don’t REALLY know what “THE” Buddha believed as there are no records about Gautama from his lifetime (or even if as ONE individual, he even existed as such). Though living in Chiang Mai surrounded by beautiful temples, I should probably put down my studies of American history and look into the local religion.
There are numerous religions and sects and most think that only THEIR version is the truth. I am for the freedom of each individual to find which philosophy of religion he finds is HIS truth and that includes past lives. (and I’m pretty sure you feel the same way, George).
One thing is true that LRH said. If you are unable to attain to a particular level, it is because of your own case. This is truth for every human conceived. We actually all need help and we only nurture a prideful state of denial by not admitting this. In his own state of denial, he insists that we can correct our case in our own power.
From there he goes off into Neverland because he is clueless as to what he is striving to attain to. There has to be a goal. Once a goal which is based on truth is established, then a means must be found. It must be based on truth as well.
Hubbard’s goal and his means came out of his mind. What gives those imaginings as well as the many imaginings of past lives credibility as truth remains a mystery.
Another thought-provoking essay, thanks TC.
Leaving aside the issue of religious beliefs, which are personal and rely on faith, it is possible to explain the Scientology version of “past lives”.
Once_Born, a never in critic who mainly comments on Tony’s blog, suggested this book. https://www.amazon.com/Memory-Illusion-Remembering-Forgetting-Science/dp/1847947611/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1511022043&sr=8-1&keywords=the+memory+illusion+by+dr+julia+shaw “The Memory Illusion”, Julia Shaw.
Shaw is a forensic psychologist who has spent decades sorting out true memories from false. This is pretty important, especially in circumstances where someone is making allegations based on memories extracted via hypnosis for example.
She does an experiment where she can get anyone to “remember” something that never happened. In great detail. With memories that cannot be distinguished from real memories. In her book she explains the mechanism of memory, using newer research than what was available in the 50s when Hubbard was spinning his fantasy castles in the air.
The experiment bears an uncanny resemblance to what happens in a Scientology session where the auditor is seeking past life recall.
Does this prove that there is no such thing as past life recall? No. But it does throw a very major wrench into some of Scientology’s most heinous lies.
TC apparently avoided this, but most Scientologists I know came away believing very firmly in their own past life recalls. So much so that it is one of the very last vestiges of the cult to fall away. Many never do give it up. It seems very real, and it seems to explain so much that is otherwise hidden.
And it is also the basis of so much pain and destructive behavior, so many lies, so much deceit, that it needs to be exposed.
1. If we are just living the latest installment of a multi-trillion year history, our current life is not too important.
2. Children are just old souls in little bodies.
3. Death is just a reset button and you come back right away with a new body. Maybe in a Scientology family.
4. Our parents and family are just a current life time random combination of circumstances. Not as important as the IAS.
5. We were planet creating and destroying super powerful beings in our long ago past. No higher being exists above us. We are gods unto ourselves and only need to be awakened to our god-hood using Scientology techniques.
All these lies proceed from the false memories of Hubbard himself and the hypnotic suggestions that he instilled in his followers. To find examples you only have to watch the Aftermath series or look at stories like this one on Tony Ortega’s blog https://tonyortega.org/2017/11/17/just-days-before-jumping-to-his-death-brad-bufanda-credited-scientology-with-saving-his-life/ We can’t really get inside the head of a suicide, but it really seems that Brad Bufanda believed so strongly that ending his life would just be a press of the reset button, that it would solve his otherwise unsolvable problems, that he considered it a sensible course of action.
I make no claim to superior knowledge. The beliefs in past lives and the spiritual nature of man are simply part of a long list of ideas that Hubbard stole from others and twisted. But the way he twisted it, and the way he made it seem “scientific” or proven leads to the five points above. And the “religious practice” of Scientology thoroughly reinforces those five points in his followers. He did it just to create unquestioning obedient followers that would give their all to his enrichment without doubts or reservations. It is dangerous and destructive.
All praise to Mike and Leah and to all who are aiming the spotlight at this long-hidden mass of corruption.
Bruce — that is an amazing book. I read it on your recommendation. Explained a LOT about auditing.
I am curious, Mike. Did you ever run a past live during a session?
Who knows. I thought I did at the time, because I was told it was real by the auditor. Was it?
Mike,
YES, the LIES of the “Auditor” were REAL, but the “past life”, NO WAY !
God Bless you, Mike !
Dave F.
Your auditor evaluated for you? The more I find out about the ethics level of sea org members the more disgusted I get.
That’s funny.
You do know that EVERY auditor evaluates for every pc don’t you. And the primary tool they use to do so is the e-meter. And every scientologist believes the meter is infallible and does not lie. Therefore the meter can be used to “guide” the preclear and tell them what is true and not true.
Argue all you want with the semantics and how it is characterized, this is the basic fact of auditing. Even “your needle is floating” is “evaluation” for the preclear, let alone “steering” and “assessments”/ Before you answer, actually think for yourself, don’t let Ron think for you.
Your argument here is terribly flawed. All the auditor is doing when he does these so-called “evaluative” actions you state above – is to tell the PC what has actually happened. An analogy would be that the sun is shining and one can see such through the window and one states to someone else standing in the room – “the sun is shining”. And secondly the other person can then agree with that or not which if not is taken up with protest or overrun indicators and reads etc. so every factor is covered anyway! I don’t know where or from whom you picked up this stuff from but it is a deliberately warped interpretation of “auditing” designed to scoff at and put one off being audited. Even a read on the meter occurs because of something – charge – that occurs in your mind. It would only be evaluation if the auditor then interprets what the read means, which of course standard auditors don’t.
Of course you won’t dare to publish this Mike will you?
Sure I will publish this. Anyone interested can read this and see your pretzel logic. Aghast at the squirreling auditors who evaluate earlier I pointed out that all auditors evaluate using the emeter. Now you say “of course they do” but it’s not really evaluation unless they interpret what the read is. You don’t even see what you are saying.
Wrong, AGAIN, Foolproof . . . There it is in black & white . . . More “proof” of the “fool” !
Mike: “And every scientologist believes the meter is infallible and does not lie. Therefore the meter can be used to ‘guide’ the preclear and tell them what is true and not true.”
Don’t many professionals do the same? For example, doctors tell their patients what their blood tests indicate, and the patient believes that these tests don’t lie – and that the doctor is trained in how to interpret them. Is the doctor “evaluating” any less than the auditor?
Don’t many professionals do the same? For example, doctors tell their patients what their blood tests indicate, and the patient believes that these tests don’t lie – and that the doctor is trained in how to interpret them. Is the doctor “evaluating” any less than the auditor?
Yes, of course. Though you can test their machines and prove what they measure.
But you actually made the point I was making. As YOU just said: EVERY AUDITOR EVALUATES FOR THEIR PC USING THE METER.
All that Maridli and Mike is blody right.
Meter steering can be evaluative I actually hate it. It put you out of your universe.
The FN is different. It prevent you from overruning and feeling bad.
There is several HCOB in 1963 which condamned emeter steering creating an “emeter dependency”
And of course doctors are great provider of evaluation.
It’s interesting that we probably wouldn’t even be aware of the pros and cons of evaluation if we hadn’t learned about it as one of the basic principles in Scientology, Hubbard should get credit for recognizing its significance.
For example, doctors tell their patients what their blood tests indicate, and the patient believes that these tests don’t lie – and that the doctor is trained in how to interpret them.
Yes, a doctor is supposed to evaluate. I don’t go to my GP to “find my own truth”.
NEVER use the words “ethics” and “Sea Org” in the same sentence . . . They are anathema !
Dave F.
I just remembered that I had forgotten that I’d read that book……..
Julia Shaw’s material on memory (and how “memories” can be implanted) is also available on You Tube. It is fascinating, science based information. I highly recommend it and am glad you referenced it Bruce. It provides great insights.
Bruce, that’s a great reference. I’ve only skimmed it myself, but the last time past lives came up in the discussion of one of TC’s pieces, I posted about research I’m more familiar with from the 1980s. The quintessential example of how elaborate “past life” stories can be elicited from the mind under suggestive or hypnotic conditions (including auditing), and how, on investigation, they turn out to be fabricated from below-consciousness recollections (such as from early childhood) and the mind’s imaginative capacities, is the infamous Bridey Murphy case, briefly explained here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridey_Murphy
It’s part of the same phenomenon of false memory syndrome, that resulted in the infamous claims of satanic ritual abuse against preschool teachers in the 1980s and early 1990s. Hubbard ran into the classic problems of supposed past life recall, that multiple people will report “lives”of the same famous historical characters (Cleopatra, Napoleon, etc.), or, on close examination, which overlap in some cases; he can be seen finding ways to dismiss such discrepancies early on, before creating the grand theory of BTs to try to account for everything.
There might be some real phenomenon of past lives, or collective species memory, but auditing isn’t getting at it in any meaningful way, and instead is mostly or entirely planting false memories. As you point out, what’s really insidious is that Hubbard and Scientology use that experience of false memories, to create a construct that convinces people to act against their best interests in this life – which also ends up having consequences for their families’ and childrens’ interests and well-being.
Bruce: You say, “TC apparently avoided this…” You give me way too much credit. The truth is, many things just don’t occur to my small brain.
But seriously, good reply; many good points.
“…most Scientologists I know came away believing very firmly in their own past life recalls. So much so that it is one of the very last vestiges of the cult to fall away. Many never do give it up. It seems very real, and it seems to explain so much that is otherwise hidden.”
An astute observation. With me, it was indeed the last vestige of the cult to fall away. And I did indeed give it up.
It’s comforting to think that people we love go somewhere after they die, and that so will we. I used to fully believe the cult version of this – spiritual beings and all that – after all, I was born and raised in the cult. Now I believe that when we die, we die, and that’s it.
My belief has thus swung fully from one side of the pendulum to the other. I’m open to other ideas somewhere in the middle, but I just haven’t observed anything to make me believe otherwise.
The worst thing that can happen to me when I die is that I’m right. So I try to live well and be happy now. If I find out I’m wrong like if I were to wake up in a fresh new body somewhere, it would be a pleasant surprise I suppose.
Thanks Bruce, I will be getting the book.
Great article Terra. I totally agree with you on the subject. With this in mind no wonder the Clear cognition is I’ve made it all up, or something like that. Yes, SCN is completely made up.
In my opinion, LRH had voices talking in his head, so rather than admitting he was cuckoo and had a mental problem, he made up BTs.
Also this OT III bullshit never made any sense. If a thetan has no mass, no wavelength and no location in space or in time, why did it take a DC 8 to transport them to volcanos. Millions could have been transported in a matchbox or could easily fit on a pinhead. How can a volcano or nuclear bombs hurt a thetan.
Nuts…. Nuts I tell ya!
The thetans were trapped in their meat bodies and only death ‘freed them’. Better yet, ask why Xenu didn’t just chop off every head, collect the ‘thetans’ on his magic fly paper and throw the whole schmear into a black hole? All problems solved that way. And you don’t need a fleet of 707s to haul the frozen meat around.
Hell, all the protein leached off every ‘confederation planet’ must have destroyed their nitrogen cycle. No wonder its a desert today.
Trying to explain some else delusion is mind numbing. Well, as it’s college sportsball game day, I am off to the couch and a 6 pack.
Clearlypissoff: “If a thetan has no mass, no wavelength and no location in space or in time, why did it take a DC 8 to transport them to volcanos. Millions could have been transported in a matchbox or could easily fit on a pinhead. How can a volcano or nuclear bombs hurt a thetan.”
Dude! You’re making way too much sense!
Hey Terra —
Oops. Guess ol’ Hubbard didn’t think of that as he was too busy making up silly stories.
It’s hard to remember all the lies and keep them straight in your head when you’re constantly bullshitting people. Maybe we should cut him a break? Lol…
I experienced two instances of what I identified as a “different” life during auditing. Though this apparently provided relief during the session, it created a sort of confusion from then on about who I really was and left me with a sort of imposter condition. I also have experienced several times of exteriorization – the feeling of being separate from my body and viewing things from a different point. This seemed to not have the damaging affect that the different lives did. I experienced similar times before during strenuous exercise, moments of extreme happiness or sorrow. It seemed normal and didn’t alter my view of myself. I understand that OT 8 is the final act in an elaborate sting, but people should be informed much earlier.
How do we know for certain that we are the “current” active generation? Could we just be some future generation’s (or generations) past lives? Could I just be someone’s long lost memory? These and other burning questions will be answered at your next auditing session – that will be $2,500, up front, please.
Do you want cash, Visa, Mastercard, or for me to take out a second mortgage on my house?
I recalled a brief part of my birth. At least I think I did. I suddenly realized I could breathe so I let out a yell as loud as I could. I was surprised and also quite proud of myself that I could do such a thing, my first moment of self consciousness outside of the womb. Maybe I mocked it up.
I think my next memory of infancy, not in session but just from memory, was sitting on the ground being curious about some ants moving around. I decided to taste one or two of them. Infants do that.
In several of the Eastern religions I’ve studied, past lives are not considered a positive thing. They are only necessary to work out your Karma (consequences of past actions and decisions) in order to eventually re-unite with God, Infinite Cause, Original Cause, etc.
The spin that Hubbard put on the concept is tainted by whatever personality disorder he suffered (malignant narcissism?).
During New Era Dianetics (NED) auditing, I recalled almost no detail of past lives because, according to the materials, my role in the process was to follow a chain of earlier, similar painful/unconscious events to uncover a decision made at the first event on the chain, not to create a personal history of past lives. I admit that making me conscious of these decisions did bring me relief and positively influenced my behavior afterwards.
As with anything else that works in Scientology, I suspect that Hubbard stole the NED techniques from someone else. He certainly used NED (and anything else that worked) to entice people into building their own prison of belief while handing over their cash. After all, if one or several techniques seem to work and bring relief, all that he is saying must be true. That eventually leads to “Scientology is man’s only hope”, “Hubbard is the source of the only workable spiritual technology on the planet” and “Anyone who opposes Scientology is an enemy of mankind.”
I hope that someday Scientology’s “therapeutic” techniques can be scientifically evaluated and, if found to be useful, integrated with other useful therapies. Until then, I’ll stay away from anything Hubbard touched with his sociopathic mind.
WhatWall – “. . . to uncover a decision made at the first event on the chain . . .” That was also my experience. I’ll add that for me all those decisions or considerations eventually seemed to track back to some metaphorical beginning of self awareness for myself. I could question it forever but why bother. I don’t think there are any mystical revelations unique to scn and I agree with the rest of your comment.
Good morning, Mike !
While this does not directly pertain to “past lives”, per se, it does speak to some of the methods employed to make people believe in “past lives” and all the other BS of Scientology.
I suggest that you read LRH’s “Brainwashing Manual” ( 50 pages long and definitely a “scary read” ! ).
Many of the techniques are employed by the “Church” of Scientology to establish and maintain “control” ( literally ) of its Members.
Links :
http://www.freewebs.com/slyandtalledgy/Brainwashing%20Manual%20Parallels.pdf
http://www.apfn.org/pdf/The_Brainwashing_Manual.pdf
Everyone please read this share those links . . . They are “eye-opening”.
God Bless you, Mike !
Dave F.
Since doing OT8 this particular subject has been one that I have continued to research the reason being that after 8 I was left with the realization that LRH had merely taken us all down the rabbit hole with him as he researched the subject. Along the way he pointed out to us all the bizarre nonsense that you’d expect to find in a rabbit hole, for instance, past lives, but he didn’t, at any point, tell you that he had been just as duped into believing that bizarre nonsense as you will be. If you “recalled” a past life incident you’d be quite convinced you lived that life especially since your auditor is expecting to hear a story from you when he/she asks for an earlier similar incident pre birth, and especially because you felt some “relief” after telling the story. You’d rack up a ton of those incidents on your journey up the bridge feeling relief as you went along and believing this actually worked. Eventually when you get to do 8 you learn that you didn’t in fact live those lives but that the entities who DID live those lives have told you (in first person terms) who they are/were and vague details of particular incidents regarding those lives as they were lived. To explain the “relief” you felt when you were telling the stories, this, I believe, is because the entity, the true owner of the incident, feels better for having blown charge on the incident, or having confessed a crime, and THAT impinges on you too causing you to feel relieved when in fact it is the entity’s relief you are thinking is yours.
That’s a lot of time and money to spend finding out that you have entities around you communicating with you and making you think you are them. There are countless books by many different authors that you can find on-line, some of them for FREE, where authors explain this very problem that humans encounter. “A Wanderer in Spirit Lands” and “Life in the World Unseen” are two FREE ones I can name just off the top of my head and which you can probably find on-line in pdf format. There are many, many, more, some of them written in the late 1800s and others more recently.
Yes, I concur with you. I haven’t done 8 but enough of 7 to be absolutely sick of it and when the latest 8 materials became public I sighed as I sort of guessed that anyway – it was no surprise that it all fizzled out that it’s not you anyway, and thus created a further dependence on the Cof$ for the next carrot to have all the answers of why you’re not free yet.
The rabbit hole approach by Hubbard that resulted in bizarre nonsense as you corrected commented on is a pretty good summation and why he researched himself silly. It was the only route that was open to him to keep it all going. A Pied Piper analogy comes to mind.
The subject of past lives is a personally subjective thing imo but a “standardly based, we are all the same type approach” is what Hubbard claimed worked for everyone – yeah right! You are correct though, the observation of “relief” when one talked about it/them did seem enticing as a route and the emeter did seem to collaborate. The results of the procedures thus developed didn’t pan out as we were led to believe they would hey? Hubbard’s whole, I’m the only source approach is about as scientific as mud pie.
It’s amazing what an honest approach to a subject does, but Hubbard’s Scientology wouldn’t know about that!
Yes, there’s lots of authors and religions out there who give their beliefs on this subject. To have a broad appreciation of others attempts to clarify it, is I believe, a good approach if one is interested in pursuing it.
Maybe it’s a wrong approach to be certain the past or the incidents in it holds the key to understanding or being cause over the future. But it seems to run on auto in the human mind anyway. Nothing like a good juicy realization every now and again about something to keep the spirits high. I’m the first to honestly admit I don’t know which way is up sometimes… but as far as humans are concerned you can make a pretty good business out of it apparently if you’re a confidence trickster.
“To have a broad appreciation of others attempts to clarify it, is I believe, a good approach if one is interested in pursuing it.” – Right on, I Yawnalot. I guess we’ll only find out the factual truth after death, but we can at least keep ourselves entertained in the meantime (and be prepared for any eventuality).
Why did Miscavige not include ‘Mission Into Time’ and ‘Did You Live Before This Life?’ in his new edition of LRH books? It couldn’t be because they were too embarrassing to let the un-brainwashed public read; ‘Scientology 8-8008’ and ‘A History Of Man’ are just as bad.
If the soul can be proved, that was a major reason I joined Scientology. (I was an undereducated dupe.)
But Scientology all these decades has grossly failed to deliver the “out of the body” ability which Hubbard claims Scientology’s Hubbard’s practices meticulously followed will achieve for followers.
Flying out of one’s skull, by doing the Hubbard quackery pseudo-therapy/past-lives exploration or by the Hubbard “objectives” pseudo-therapy or by the Hubbard “body thetans” exorcism, is not being demonstrated by Scientology.
Chuck, I have listened to several people in Scientology who have told me that, while merely reading one of LRH’s books, they went exterior.
The way I see it is that the truth is out there, you just don’t want to confront it.
Alcoboy–
So, because some people claimed to go “exterior” while reading one of Hubbard’s books, that means Chuck doesn’t want to “confront” the truth? What “truth”?
That’s some…uh…pretty strange logic there.
How do you even know those people were telling you the truth? I’ve read countless posts on this blog and elsewhere where ex-$ci’s have admitted to either lying about such things or exaggerating because they desperately wanted to believe. They tried to convince themselves of Hubbard’s claims regarding the state of “Clear” and “OT”.
Claiming something and relaying anecdotes are not proof of anything.
Sounds like common “Escape Literature” to me . . . Nothing “magical” from LRH . . . Any book can do that !
Escape Literature . . . What is it ?
“Escape Literature Fiction that is designed to take the reader away from real life and provide pleasure, usually with a story that is easy to follow and pleasant to read.
Interpretive Literature Fiction that is designed to take the reader deeper into the real world and provoke thought, broadening our awareness of life.”?
Dave F.
Alcoboy,
Sounds like the pages were “painted” with a hallucinogen . . .
Dave F.
“In fact, until I routed onto the OT Levels, I avoided going “beyond this lifetime” whenever I could.”
In other words you were never honest as a PC and this answers all the questions I had about why you are the way you are.
Thanks Terra (or should I say Terril) and good luck to you.
Well, no, you should not say Terril — your assumptions are SO off-base…
This is one of the most unlikable traits of fundamentalist scientologists. “Now I know what’s wrong with you…[fill in the blank], which is why you are failed case/NCG/PTS etc”
You have no idea how condescending and off-putting this is. And it is something common to many “true-believers.”
You will no doubt have an explanation in your mind as to why I would say this “Critical natter = O/W’s” or something of the sort. Sadly, it shuts you off from being able to observe.
Boy oh boy, nail meet hammer. I’m so glad I got flung off that merry-go-round years ago. Well said Mike.
Fundamentalist Scios are the most awful of people to try to converse with.
And being a compassionate and happy human being!
Very interesting subject. Especially since several BILLION people are convinced of past and future lives. 🙂 So who is to know? I went up through OT VII and did run into some past lives. Actually, the most powerful ones happened at the lower levels, one specific one during Dianetic auditing. Was it real? Well, the discovery of the session was a life only 13 years prior to the life I’m living currently. And the running of it, quite quickly, had the result of instantly curing a rather vicious bout of laryngitis. I was able to research it to a mild degree, located the place it happened (which I’d never heard or read of prior) and the event which was recalled actually took place. That’s just what I recalled and within two minutes the laryngitis totally disappeared. I was simply astounded. Happy, too, the throat pain was gone.
So there is was. And so what? If it’s real to me, it’s real to me. No harm, no foul. No one has to care or believe me, either. I truly do not care whether I’m believed or not believed. If someone believes that I was “hypnotized, what should that mean to me? I know what I know and will stick with my own reality.
I can’t get over the fact of people constantly calling others out because their beliefs or experiences are different. Hell, WARS have been waged over such minutiae! Just plain dumb.
Perhaps I should take a leaf from your “book” Peter and phrase my comments in the very adroit way you have done. Perhaps this (what and how you stated it) is what I meant to say – perhaps I am “dubbing in” the responses I know I will get and thus start off on a war footing – although my comments, or most of them anyway, aren’t so war-like as others make them out to be. Some are – granted. Well done Peter.
Hubbard’s explanation for why a person doesn’t attain “OT” (soul powers which ought to include being able to exteriorize at will) is their “own case” or their “OT case.”
“Case” is the reason Hubbard gives for failing to attain the soul powers one supposedly inherently has, because Hubbard pegs all humans as just dumb souls stuck in bodies, and buried in “case”.
Scientology is a false promising quasi-thearapeutic “case-handling” “religion.”
When I revert to a totally Scientologist theoretical mindset, I would conclude that Hubbard’s failure at the end of his life to handle his own “case” would be due to Hubbard’s failure to have an auditor to help Hubbard find that additional “case” that Hubbard was failing to find and fix himself. He certainly died in despair and pretty awful mental shape per the “Going Clear….” book final pages.
Interested Party. Why, according to LRH, are you an S.P.? There are no dog PCs. Nattering about PCs means only one thing…
I can tell you that Hubtard WOULD have had you declared had you audited as FSO staff.
I’ve always wondered what are the variety of opinions that Scientologists hold today regarding Hubbard’s statements to Sarge at Creston before LRH died, where LRH admitted he’d failed. LRH was in terrible case shape, and a Scientologist if they are told the full truth of LRH’s final dismal “case” shape, they’d react suitably, and justify LRH’s “failure” as just LRH’s “case” failure in some way.
LRH in fact died thinking in the spiritual/mental framework that LRH had created for trying to deal with his case and with everyone else’s case, but that whole framework needs dismantling and inspection and a whole lot of re-education is what Scientologists need so as to replace their Hubbard framework.
LRH was his own subject’s primary “failed case.” He failed at his own “case-handling” medicine.
Chuck, I doubt seriously any of them have ever gotten any of that information. And would disbelieve it if confronted with it.
Chuck the only response I’ve heard from someone still a cult member is to say that Sarge is either a LRH hating liar or he was nuts and it didn’t occur.
YEs, and I knew Sarge and he was neither. In fact, it took a long time to coax him to speak about this at all, out of his sense of loyalty to LRH.
In other words you were never honest as a PC and this answers all the questions I had about why you are the way you are.
https://leavingscientology.wordpress.com/2010/07/23/thought-stopping/
Thought-stopping – good reference!
Interested Party. One of these days, if you are lucky, but more likely if you are unable or unwilling to keep up with the reg’s demands for money or CoS demands for disconnection and/or toothbrush dumpster cleaning, you too will discover Hubbard’s most important lesson: there is no there, there. IOW, he was just making it all up as he went along. The parts he did not make up he borrowed or stole from others who were also just making it up.
Then Hubbard slowly used his favorite thought control techniques to get himself a bunch of ronbota.
At some point pre-Scientology most people would rely on history books, science books, etc., all reading done with a critical mind, of course. That is something Hubbard takes away from people – the ability to think and learn for themselves. He replaces the wonderful curious human mind with sheaves of policy letters and bulletins, all to be followed to the letter, or suffer the consequences.
Knowing what you know today, would you have spent your life following Hubbard around, holding his cigarettes, his lighter, his ashtray, and jumping to his every whim? Then ask yourself this – how is remaining in Scientology any different from being Hubbard’s menial ashtray-holding slave… or worse even, Miscavige’s errand boy and punching bag?
But maybe you will look around you and notice when Hubbard’s tech fails to cure health problems, and decide that pain in your gut or skin cancer on your face deserves a visit to a man or woman of science instead of more useless auditing.
BTW, next time you get regged, tell them how they can clear a cool million. “The One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge was an offer by the James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF) to pay out one million U.S. dollars to anyone who can demonstrate a supernatural or paranormal ability under agreed-upon scientific testing criteria.”
They may not get to try, though, because the foundation will no longer take quacks.
Past lives – wow…this is a great subject to discuss after watching every episode again of Leah Remini and Mike Rinder on A&E Scientology; the Aftermath…
with some active Scientologists “in doubt”…..
I am happy to report – that thanks to your show….they are NOW out of doubt and out of Scientology.
Can’t wait to see what they do for the effective blow to the enemy – Scientology.
I hope they can get their entire family out.
VWD Leah and Mike…..you really are true Humanitarians with HONORS!
Now…on to past lives….
I used to believe I lived before Scientology….
After doing all of the lists on FPRD – I felt it was a bunch of hooey….I was making it all up….the meter was reading whether I “BELIEVED” the stuff I was making up.
Where was the science?? Where is the proof??
I was told by my auditor – when I questioned “the science” …that Hubbard buried a treasure chest in a past life and located it…to prove we lived before.
riiiiiiiigggggghhhhhhtttttt……okay – and I have some swamp land in Florida to sell you….
Anyone restore a foreign language from a past life …??? LOL I remember a registrar at the Fraud Scam Base was trying to sell me that “service”…..
Scientology – truly a science of SCAM!
And that “religion’s” practice forced us to manufacture “successes” “wins” and improved abilities solely so we could END horribly long and costly auditing sessions before all we’d paid was totally lost. But where did that get us? The end result was exactly the same. No money left and no results to show for it.
I’m wondering if you were ever in? I did 16 years and never “manufactured” a win. A number of abilities DID improve. And I was told at Flag that I had the smallest number of folders the historian had ever seen. When I saw there was nothing further, I left. MY choice. Your blanket statement can’t be applied to thousands of people. And this is NOT an advertisement for scio.
Good one! I wholeheartedly agree.
Can someone tell me why the spirits that belonged to the bodies that Xenu blew to smitherines had to watch 3-D movies for 36 days?
To inflate the videos ratings Bonnie.
The key word there is ‘inflate.’
They paid in advance & got a better rate. Package deal arrangement.
They should have been watching “Going Clear” !
David Miscavige should have been a jockey . . . If President Trump can remove the CoS tax exemption, hopefully, COB will be shovelling out the horse barns at the track – LOL !
To create revenue from popcorn sales. A buck per kernel.
Excellent points Terra. An analogous write up was done about dianetics and the PC actually recalling what occurs during unconscious moments. That premise WAS tested and found to be false.
The concept of reincarnation is prevalent in much of Eastern philosophy. I believe it’s true that reincarnation is real. however just because somebody says I remember a past life does it mean necessarily it’s true or not. so the answer to the question posed on this blog is there is such a thing ? yes but there’s probably some imagining going on, too. Occasionally Hubbard does say some things which I believe I correct and when he said “the weird idea is that you live only once” that’s essentially right, that is the weird idea, so on that score Scientology gets it right. One need to look no further than child prodigies who seem to pick up an instrument and play it without bothering to have learned how to play it . History has given us a few examples of this curious phenomenon. what other explanation could there be? But in my years as a Scientologist (I abandon being a Scientologist many years ago) I encountered a number of people who claimed they were this famous person or that famous person. I find it amusing that no one claims to have been a janitor or a plumber in a past life, no, they were Napoleon or they were Leonardo Da Vinci or whatever.
I met a person who claimed to be Mozart … socially awkward!
It might be an interesting exercise to introduce a person who believes they were Mozart in a previous life with another person who believes they were Mozart in a previous life, and watch the arguments.
Hahaha, yeah for sure, fireworks!!
Patrick: If you watch the current talent contests on the telly, note the number of competitors 10 years and younger with utterly mind blowing talents, some singers sounding as if they were 20 years older. Also look into a relatively new “type” of children called “Indigos”. Quite amazing what’s going on under our noses.
The notion of “Indigo Children”, according to Wikipedia, is a pseudoscientific concept straight out of someone’s arse (ass), as are all such notions. The axiom that “extraordinary claims (or clams) require extraordinary evidence” holds ever true.
I’m continuously amazed at how gullible some folk are. Whether past lives, Indigo Children, or scientology, etc, etc, ad infinitum, none pass the smell test.
“Indigo Children” . . . Smurfs ?
Hmm . . . The traits of “Indigo Children” closely mirror those of “Milennial Snowflakes” . . . LOL !
https://www.gaia.com/lp/content/13-signs-you-are-an-indigo-child/
1. You Feel Entitled
You were born feeling special and know it.
2. You Are Destined to Be Here
You are confident and even arrogant at times – and emboldened by something larger than you can name.
3. You Have High Expectations of Yourself and Others
This can make for a challenging relationships and interactions. You see only the best and expect others to live up to it. Toward yourself, you can be unrelentingly self critical.
4. You are Perceptive
Indigos see the world differently. Coupled with innate-self assurance, you often think your way is right and are offended if others cannot see, much less take action, on your point of view. If Indigos ruled the world, you are confident no problems would exist.
5. You Question Authority
You are not one to negotiate, so certain in your views and ways, you are often rebellious and critical of those in power.
6. You Want to Overturn the Man
Difficult and rigid systems seem foolish to you and you often become antagonistic to what others experience as normal.
7. You are Creative
Musically and artistically gifted, your art invites others to see the world around through your eyes.
8. You are a Change Maker
Your perception on the failings of society is so keen that you are a magnificent leader, offering better methods of business, society and ways of being.
9. You are a Lost Soul
You feel out of place with others as you recognize you are different than most people. You can tend toward being a loner or rebel, unwilling to compromise just to fit in.
10. You are Driven
As the Indigo soul mission is encoded in your very being, you are unwilling to back down from confronting what feels out of integrity.
11. You are Passionate and Focused
While fiery temperaments may be hard to take, you are not one to be still or silenced.
12. You are Highly Psychic
Without any need for development, your psychic capacity is finely tuned. While you see nothing special in your ability, it gives you an advantage in reading others with ease and seeing through masks.
13. You are Frustrated
Coupled with their big-picture vision and restless soul drive for change, you become easily frustrated with society and others who are not shifting quickly enough. Patience is something that should be developed.
Dave F.
I like how this gets into the controversies regarding the esoteric materials. Remember though, Source is Ron and Ron is Source. Following the KSW policy, Ron is the authority whether Tom said he had past lives or not. Ron said it was true, it is true for all Scientologists.
As an ex-Scientologist, I enjoy the controversy and I don’t have to justify sh*t to a MAA.
Way to go, G-EP!!!
” If past lives were real, I would think that out of the billions of people here on Earth, at least a few would have recalled something extra special. On the contrary, Scientologists seemingly remember just the mundane— ………………………… . Does this inconsistency strike anybody else as just a bit odd?
Yes. And El Cons stats are in lowers! It has been over 21 years since 1986. Nice article Terra.
Yo Dave, Time to send out a search party good buddy. Use the well marked launch pad at Trementina and head on out. You could announce it at the Shrine. ‘A huge never before seen tremor has occurred in the farce out near Target Too. I along with several other high ranking officials will be going to investigate.’
Newcomer, the lives of most people were/are mundane. And those who have better lives and claim them are called “frauds” and worse. One can’t win for losing. LOL
Everytime I feel my “SuperPowers” coming on …..I pass gas and the “feeling” is gone…..Is that caused by my “reactive Mind”?
Holy shit, Python! You can actually pass gas? You are Super Powerful! I’m in awe…
Hmm . . . Just don’t strike a match . . . Ka-Boom !
Flatulence? mmmm, maybe it’s an escaping deity? More research is required!
No. it’s your reactive beans, but one must be highest level OT to know that.
My inside source hints that Bean-O is a major part of OT VIIII and OT IX (same numeral, but requires two donations, another stinky DM movement).
The reactive mind is the one that says holy crapola not another set of books, another Ideal Org donation, another IAS fundraiser, and why do I have to buy two e-meters, and why do they cost so much, and have they fixed the innerds so they don’t rock slam any more?
Re-action comes in response to Action, which is why in the act of being scammed out of house and home one should want to React by running far far away.
Sounds more like the typical “Brain Fart” we occasionally have……..
Yes!