Saturday, it must be Terra Cognita!
More on Similarities, Differences, and Identities
If we’re all free-willed spiritual beings—L. Ron Hubbard called us, “thetans”—with god-like powers, including cause over matter, energy, space, and time, then why are we all so similar? Relative to the immense size of the universe and the diversity that must exist, everyone here on Earth is practically identical. And not just physically.
Wouldn’t you think there’d be more variety amongst the sentient beings on this planet after trillions of years? Or did we all simply “decide” to play the “being human” game and surrender our most precious abilities?
Wouldn’t you think that with over seven and half billion thetans inhabiting planet Earth, at least a few rebels would have mocked up another game, or at least changed up the rules a bit? Mocked up different bodies? Added a pair of wings to their terrestrial bodies? Chose to walk around on four legs instead of two? Decided on a better game than war?
Am I to believe that all seven and half billion human beings agreed on the same game? With the same rules. Same barriers. Same freedoms. And nobody, not one single person, ever created something else? Something outside the old box?
If humans are good at one thing, it’s disagreeing on shit.
Dogs and Cats
What are the odds that out of seven and half billion people, no one ever decided to occupy a non-human body? Like a dog’s or cat’s? Decided to fly around in the body of a crow? Galloped through tall grass as a horse or unicorn? Founded a real Hogwarts Academy for actual witches and wizards? Could it simply be that no one can? That human beings aren’t as powerful or spiritual as LRH led us to believe? Were we ever?
Maybe “what you see is what you get,” and we’re nothing more than a collection of hyper-active molecules. For most humans, though, this “meat body” viewpoint is unacceptable.
Pearly Gates
People like to think we’re more than a bunch of animated particles held together by positive and negative electrical charges. That we’re more than wrinkled skin and sacks of bones. Most believe that celestial planes actually exist beyond those which we can see, hear, smell, and feel.
This philosophy is particularly characterized by our belief in an afterlife. That some version of heaven awaits those souls once they drop the ol’ bod. Replete with pearly gates, billowy clouds, and for some lucky Muslims, forty virgins lounging about a cool oasis. Like many others in the world, Scientologists believe in do-overs. Once their old body wears out, they get to choose a new one.
Which raises the question: After having lived these countless lives—per LRH—wouldn’t you think someone in our sector of the galaxy would have evolved beyond Homo sapiens? Are we to believe our frail, accident-prone bodies are the best anyone with god-like abilities could conjure up? After quadrillions of years? Come on guys. Really?
Prove It, Dude
If we are all spiritual beings as described by LRH, wouldn’t you expect to see gangs of mighty Operating Thetans zipping around town generating all sorts of extraordinary effects? Like actually “clearing the planet,” and spreading “the way to happiness?” Or saving real lives by making rain fall on drought-stricken Eastern Africa? Or something simple, like doing away with male erectile dysfunction?
Wouldn’t you expect to have seen a few minor feats performed by now? Like Uncle Stan levitating off his chair at Thanksgiving dinner? Or Aunt Helen healing kids at the local children’s hospital? Or Grandpa Charlie, three sheets to the wind, glowing in the dark under the Christmas tree? Or not having to see a doctor for an erection lasting longer than four hours?
Excuses, Excuses, Excuses
LRH and his followers concocted many excuses why “OT” phenomena shouldn’t be demonstrated.
“People couldn’t have it,” is a common theme. In other words, people would freak-out if they actually saw an ashtray rise off a chair without the help of a human pair of hands. Spontaneously combusting witnesses to such exploits would be out-PR.
“Clearing” the community would be “out reality.”
OT acts would drive psychs crazy!
Things will change once all orgs become ideal.
Once SUMP is up and running…
Things will change for good once OT 9 and 10 are released.
For years, rumors have existed about parishioners with real OT abilities. I have yet to see the video.
Strapped Down on that Damn Chair
According to LRH, we’ve been so heavily implanted with mind and spirit-numbing commands that we can’t operate as true thetans anymore. We can’t even remember how to age gracefully and not get sick. Somehow, all seven and half billion of us have been rendered powerless and incapable of demonstrating even the most elementary of OT skills. As if someone had laced our formula with Kryptonite and lobotomized us when we were babies.
Apparently, implanting is so effective, it works ALL the time on ALL beings. With no exceptions! What are the odds of this “implant tech” working one hundred percent of the time? Wouldn’t you think that a small handful of beings would have figured out how to avoid the “implant station?” Or how to resist its debilitating effects? Or, for some reason known only to God, were naturally immune? Just one thetan out of seven and a half billion? Chaos theory and Murphy’s Law don’t apply?
If implanting tech is so successful, wouldn’t it be easier to simply implant a few dozen super-positive commands in everyone than go through all the trouble of “going up the Bridge?” Couldn’t we just supersede all the harmful commands we’re carrying around with a few beneficial ones? Like: “Bob…you are omnipotent and all that negative shit doesn’t apply anymore.”
Water into Wine
Many of the same questions concerning thetans could be asked of God. For instance, just as no thetan has ever been able to demonstrate OT abilities, why hasn’t God? Why can’t he “hold an event,” and reveal, once and for all, he truly is the creator of all things?
I wouldn’t require much proof. For instance, I wouldn’t expect her to instantly end all war, famine, and human suffering. Or render Viagra unnecessary. A teensy-weensy little demonstration, though, would go a long way in placating my jaded mind. Like what if she turned a few gallons of water into wine, a decent cabernet, maybe, not too dry, hints of ripe plums, licorice, and blackberries? Or allow Joe to go all night without…
End of Ramblings
Did someone really convince seven and half billion spiritual beings to all play the same game? Now that…would be real OT ability.
Still not Declared,
Terra Cognita
Ed note: seven and a half billion thetans PLUS x trillion body thetans — with OT VII’s “clearing” them with one shot commands every minute. Been curious how “who are you?” isnt a good enough command to clear non-DB thetans? It’s a lot quicker than all that Book One and R3R and Grades that normal thetans need…
Can’t say honestly if there is a God or not, but if there is something out there, it is beyond human comprehension. When you look at string theory and other multidimensional theories, supposedly our own dimension is overlapped by 2-5 others, most existing in the same space and time as we are, but are beyond our perception. Science is the fingerprint of whatever energy/being/consciousness that brought about life in this dimension/universe.
IF this theory is correct, all matter in this universe is comprised of sub-atomic little bands that are not subject to time/gravity, so therefore everything in the universe technically exists in a fraction of a moment of time that is being stretched out by gravity into billions of years. Our own existence is rather miraculous when looked at from a scientific point of view.
That being said, NOBODY knows what is really going on, what the answer is, or why we are here. No matter how much knowledge humans have collected and tried to make sense of life, we are still blind and scratching in the dark. Both the religious and atheists are certain of their beliefs. I am certain of nothing and will always answer this question honestly: I don’t know.
These are all very excellent points. Incidentally, we should officially change the writers name from Terra Incognita to E.D.
Good one. Clever.
“Things will change for good once OT 9 and 10 are released”
Oh, YEAH! Won’t even need people attaining the sooper-duper levels, just the levels’ existence. And pigs will fly and unicorns dance in the streets: Mind their droppings, please. That’s magical shit, don’t ya know.
Thank you TC. You made me smile, a little, thinkin about Goddess wine!! Ah well, some ancient goddess mystery religions got morphed into God(man) and black magick initiation religions.
Have a great day, TC!
Still grinnin,
Gravity
Mike, God has already shown himself to us in his incredible creation. ” For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.” (Rom. 1:20) He also gave us an instruction manual,the Bible.”All Bible Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right.” (2 Timothy 3:16) We appreciate you and are praying for you and your family. Thank you for exposing scientology.
You can’t even quote your Bronze Age book of fiction correctly. Here’s 2 Timothy 3:16 from the King James Heresy: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.”. And here’s Romans 1:20: “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.” When you use quote marks, that means you’re quoting directly from the source, not giving your interpretation. How about taking English courses instead of Bible study?
Beck out The new living translation.Please don’t call God’s word heresy. God bless.
Heresy, heresy, heresy. The only true Bible is the New Jerusalem Bible, the one endorsed and authorized by the only true church of God and his vicar on Earth, the bishop of Rome. Your quotes from a heretical version show that you are a spawn of Satan and a tool of evil. Confess your sins, heretic, and maybe you just might go to Purgatory. Because right now, you’re going to Hell for blaspheming.
What’s this? A poster on a blog that condemns the bigotry of the CoS who is himself a bigot?
There’s a big difference between being a religious critic and a religious bigot. Labeling critics as bigots is Scn Tech.
Hey Espi…
Were you joking? I didn’t think you believed in god, The Bible or any of that stuff based off your other posts I’ve read. I assume you were being sarcastic about being “a spawn of Satan”, “confess your sins” and “going to hell”. Yes?
Espi,
You condemn Deb’s quoting of Scripture as Bronze Age heresy but the NJB has only been around since 1985 and specifically for Roman Catholics, may I assume this is your faith?
The writing styles of the different English language translations may be different but the original meaning of Scripture is unchanged. If I were quoting Scripture I would quote from the ESV, it is my preferred translation.
The only manuscripts (or books) truly inspired of God are the very originals which we don’t have any longer but what we do have are faithful copies ( as comparisons to the very earliest manuscripts shows as well as the newly discovered Dead Sea Scrolls).
No one English Language translation which is faithfully translated is superior to another in inspiration.
Just Hummin’, all translations end up involving at least some degree of interpretation inevitably colored by particular theological and ideological viewpoints or biases, especially when they involve Greek, which has a structure very different from English and other European languages and uses some vernacular vocabulary whose meaning has effectively been lost. There’s a reason that there are so many versions of English bibles, which people have actually been burned alive at the stake over, and not just one that everyone can agree on. That is not a point of heresy or controversy, and you will find that serious religious scholars from pretty much all Christian traditions will admit as much, even if a more comfortable, simpler black-and-white perspective is preached from the pulpit and taught in Sunday school.
I checked, and on at least one point even the ESV relies on taking a particular side on a controversy that goes back to the 3rd or 4th century – and probably the wrong side, based on what we now know of original manuscripts and from more recently discovered materials. On the other hand, the differences in the oldest manuscripts, such as the 4 different synoptic Gospels that are sometimes even contradictory in their reporting of what Jesus said, as well as other materials like the Dead Sea Scrolls, are generally cited by modern New Testament scholars as clear evidence of competing interpretations – in fact, new discoveries open up new questions, such as whether Jesus was actually much more in the vein of of an Essene radical than any of the materials that have come down to us acknowledge.
When you start to talk about subjective judgments like “faithfully translated” that conveniently dismiss what you don’t agree with, you’re getting into the same territory as scientologists arguing that the abuses being exposed aren’t really Scientology or proper applications of Hubbard’s policies. You might consider how your own assumptions and apologistics could be similar to those of a faithful scientologist.
Whoops…someone’s got his panties in a bunch 😉
Forgot to use a dryer sheet. Whoops.
Seems like the beginning of this “organization” comes down to LRon being a Science Fiction writer/author……..and apparently a good one at that if he got so many to “BUY A BRIDGE” he was selling.
The generation of the “love ins”, those that have caring hearts and souls, those wanting to better the Planet and help mankind…..those who wanted a different format of life than what their parents were living, willing signed up & as Leah said, she didn’t want to believe what she had gotten herself into living “was a lie”……
It all depends on one’s personal view of themselves/life/creation. I gave up let’s call it “established religion” decades ago. When our soul, spirit, or whatever leaves our “physical body” only then might we find out the truth. IS there “Life After Death”…..do we “get a second chance at living again as another person or as some believe as an animal”…ARE there other forms of “life” out there be they aliens etc, the unanswered question of the ages.
Anytime the likes of LRH starts mouthing off incredibly stupid numbers like billion year contracts, or trillions of years ,I know, intimately, (don’t get me started) how WRONG he was. And to think that idiotic uninformed fool was called a science fiction writer!??!!?
Did that idiot ever open up an astronomy textbook in his shriveled little gross existence?
Nope, apparently not.
Scientologists, your guru was an uninformed, untrained, charleton. Would you hang your hat on that windbag’s words?
WAYC, I’m with on that ‘trillions’ of years crap! Everything he ever said, came off the top of his head. Do you know why they never showed the 30 years of research? Because it doesn’t exist!
“People couldn’t have it,”
That’s the biggest pile of bullshit of them all. If *anyone* could “have” a demonstration of so-called “OT phenomena” it would be scientologists.
Nobody, not one, ever, has proven past life recall. Oh, somebody’s aunt’s friend’s 4-year-old asked about his wife and kids (yeah, right – you wouldn’t believe how prevalent that tale is in clam circles) but nobody has *ever* gone and met up with friends from last lifetime, or remembered how to speak the language from where they lived last lifetime, or anything. Ever. Period. It’s all bullshit.
And if stupid scientology ever wanted to really expand, all they’d have to do would be to demonstrate the bullshit they promise. But they can’t because it doesn’t exist.
That’s because it’s all made up. Super Powers? More like Stupid Powers.
the more I read, the more I am impressed you retain your sanity….,,,for the most part …. 😉
I do not comment often.
I am an never in.
Not that I like anger or rage, I am happy to see this essay. You and others was sold a piece of blue sky.
I do not know how to convinvce those who are sitting on the fence, just watching. I really wish I had the answer. I think it has to come from someone who left.
Thank your for your essays.
This topic would work well on an atheist blog. Other than that it’s useless.
Regarding human-LIKE consciousness elsewhere in the universe, if a dominant species evolved to a bicameral (two chamber) brain the thinking would be similar. The body form would obviously depend on planetary conditions.
Human-like consciousness throughout the universe would be a possible explanation for human-like past life memories. Take it or leave it – I have no problem with atheism. lol
After all that, I kinda like what I read in an ad for some fonts, written in one of the fancy fru-fru fonts: “Bloom where you are planted.” Can’t beat that.
That’s an either/or viewpoint. It postulates only two sides to the game. My belief (and experience) is that are no ends to the possible sides.
Mike, I can’t agree with all that you say. I know what I know and experienced. Haven’t had much auditing, and even some of that was screwed up. I was not allowed tech training either, but I do understand my own nature as spirit, and assume I’m not alone on this.
As long as we agree on the rules, boundaries and limits of this physical world, we’ll be stuck here. What is missing are the goals we set when we arrived here. Maybe there are no goals and it’s self perpetuating. But it is an illusion and consideration which keeps us here.
So, if we all woke up one fine morning, opened our bedroom windows and stuck our heads out to yell, “I’m mad as hell and WILL NOT agree with any of the laws of physics or boundaries in the physical world,” then would that do it, or would something additional be required in order to dispel this rather grand illusion?
Terra, As someone who enjoys asking myself the big questions, I appreciate your bringing some of these questions to the blog, even if mainly for the purpose of demonstrating the fallacy of basic Scientology Doctrine. The old ‘OT abilities’ carrot which drew in so many people (myself included) is, as you say, nothing but pie-in-sky. And to anyone who disputes that, please show me just one OT with extra-human ability. A half century of auditing should be long to call it quits, and admit that Scientology Auditing does not make OTs.
The current Scientology staff and public are ever faithful in devoting their lives to this lie. Their energy would be better spent investigating other ideas, experimenting with meditation, and pondering for themselves what it means to be a spiritual being. With all of the incredible scientific discoveries of the last century (like quantum physics expanding our awareness of the tiny world) and the awesome theories of cosmology (i.e. the multiverse at the large end of the scale) this is a very exciting time to be alive. The best part of all these scientific discoveries and theories is that they are coming ever closer to bridging the gap between spiritual and material.
At this point the gap is still huge, but that’s where the fun comes in. Just get yourself into a philosophical mood. Have a glass of good wine, or go sit on a mountain top, read a popular book on big concepts then and start writing down basic truths about existence, as you see them. I’ll bet you come up with much better ideas than LRH did, and I would be glad to hear them.
Paul Burkhart
Today I tearfully watched, for the third time, a grandchild graduate from high school. Before they went to the stage to get their diplomas, the entire class threw beach balls up in the air in unison. The balls rolled around the football field in all sorts of directions during the ceremonies.
It was an interesting metaphor for the directions the graduating seniors will take. Some stayed very close to the chairs, some went off together in groups and a few brave balls went off all by themselves far away.
If we are lucky, we are born into a situation where we are allowed to make good choices and succeed in life. IMHO putting all your faith in any one thing is never a good idea. An individual who can adapt is more likely to survive. The cosmic answers may not even be out there but one thing we can say for alll of us is that at least we are willing to look.
Valerie, this is a wonderful analogy…great insight.
Hi Valerie,
Regarding adapting to survive, and children/grandchildren graduating with ALL of life to look forward to:
‘It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.’ Charles Darwin
Wow, that’s a great quote. I wish Darwin had said it. Excellent saying anyway.
Yes Valerie….. “willing to look.” That’s the whole enchilada. Thanks.
Interesting and important questions you ask, TC.
Every OT that stood before a gawking newbie, who gazed at them with nervous awe, is complicit in forwarding the idea that Scientology can deliver these higher states.
But these would-be OTs are also trapped in the idea that somehow it is only they who did not get all the abilities hinted at in Advance! Magazine’s OT phenomena section. These manque OTs are usually too far along, too invested in the Dream in terms of time, treasure, and hope to recognize and admit that maybe, there is no there there.
This little 3 minute comedy starring Ed Begley Jr. is such an apt metaphor for the modern Scientology OT, and the people that interact with them, that I had to share it:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=evx_Ps85yu8
FUN! However… I was convinced of other lives when I directly experienced one of them and was actually able to confirm it to my own satisfaction. Can I confirm it to your satisfaction, TC? Probably not. But, on the other hand, I didn’t come into this world to confirm anything to anybody. Did I learn a lot from the upper levels. I did indeed, according to my own thoughts and the changes I found in my personality.. I have never had the sense I needed to explain. Is there a god? My answer probably would not convince anyone here. So what?
A well recognized and brilliant individual – Albert Einstein – has been quoted as saying, “We don’t know one millionth part of anything.” I can live with that thought and still be willing to go on learning. (Hubbard, apparentgly, wouldn’t agree with Einstein and went merrily on his way. Did he ever speak truth? I think he didl, though the truth had first been revealed by others. So I don’t really care any longer who said/revealed it. If it works out to be a useful truth for me, that’s good enough. Who actually said it is not important.
I’m not sorry I found scientology. Had I not, I wouldn’t have found and married the wonderful and incredibly talented woman I have. And, if nothing else had occurred, that would have been more than enough “good” in my life. I’m also not sorry I saw the futility of moving beyond where I’d gotten to, and quietly left in the early 80s. Happily, no one noticed that I had gone. They still haven’t, though I continue to receive occasional mail which goes directly into the recycle in on the way back from the mail box. Doesn’t bother me and, apparently, doesn’t bother them.
Life is good. Beats the other option by a country mile. Scio will continue to slow down, causing fewer overts on others. More and more “innies” will begin to think again…and leave. And life will go on, which is itself a miracle in action.
Just being able to play “that game” is more than enough for me. And, I hope, for each and every one of you on Mike’s delicious blog!
I am a former scientologist, public not staff member, and I’ve been out of it for about 22 years now. I still believe we are spirits (but I believed so already long before scientology). I never liked “organized” religions or religions with organisations, hierarchy, etc. I think these religious organisations were just created to divide men (and women, of course) and create conflicts. Then, they created politics (left, right, center, far left, far right, etc. to yet divide even more men (and women). Then, they created feminism to divide men and women. They did many other things yet and all this to the famous “divide and rule” concept.
I know we are spirits or spiritual beings and we are kind of trapped (like in The Matrix movie) but I don’t believe in a standard procedure of any kind to find the way out. I think there were 2 men who were above the mass and they were Buddha and Christ. I think Christ revelations (I don’t like to say the inappropriate word “teaching”) were totally misunderstood and I guess he was betrayed already by some of his apostles when he was yet still alive and it was not necessarily Judas. I think the Roman Catholic Church was created twisted already from the beginning to prevent the mass to know about the real Christ’s revelations (in the sense to make sure that people don’t understand correctly what he was saying)
He never personified God and if you replace the word “god” by the word “kingdom”, it makes much more sense about all the New Testament. The kingdom that would be the spirits native home. He came to warn the the worshippers of the golden calf that this materialistic world is not the real world but just an illusion by saying “my kingdom is out of this world”… And he often referred to himself as “the Son of Man”… A spirit from our kingdom…
I could speak for hours about this but English is not my first language and it’s not easy for me to tell my thoughts precisely 🙂
Fox, I would never have guessed that English was not your native language. You write express beautifully/ I happen to be much in accord with your thoughts, especially re The Christ, meaning “teacher”. HE would be appalled at being a source of personal adulation or being called “The King”. He thought Love, he taught Love, he lived Love. And the various “christian” religions have pretty well misunderstood and bollixed it up to a fare thee well. He didn’t come to be adored or worshipped. He said, simply, ‘Love one another, as I have loved you. Pretty simple stuff, yet we’ve still not learned.
Hi, thegman77,
I am never in Scientologist but a full in, born again, baptized, Bible believing, evangelical Christian and I must confess I’ve sat here reading and re-reading your comments. I usually just pass things by about Christianity as a faith that I don’t agree with but you have attributed to Jesus things He never claimed for himself.
Christ – doesn’t mean teacher, it means “Anointed One”. Rabbi means teacher.
Jesus, speaking of himself says, “believe in God (meaning God the Father), believe also in me”, and “I Am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me.” and “Before Abraham was I Am”. I Am being the name God called himself to Abraham .
Jesus in his own words makes himself equal with God. And it was this that got him crucified, not his teachings in general but by making himself out to be equal with God.
Jesus also claims He is a King, before Pontius Pilate he declared “my kingdom is not of this world”.
He taught love yes, but not exclusively. He also taught more on hell than any one else in the Bible. He says to “Not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear Him, who can destroy body and soul in hell.”
The Book of Revelation is about Jesus. He is the one who opens the scroll, breaks the seals and unleashes what He called the Great Tribulation.
He claims to be God, so yes He did come to be adored and worshiped.
He never claimed to be love, love, love; rather God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) declares Himself Holy, Holy, Holy.
My point being you can’t make Jesus into anything you want him to be. He has declared who and what He is in Scripture. You can believe Him or not believe Him.
C.S Lewis wrote of Jesus: “I am trying here to prevent anyone from saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.” That is the one thing we must not say. A man who said the things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic-on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg-or else he would be a Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His Feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about Him being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
Just Hummin’, I want to point out that we don’t really know so much what Jesus said about himself, as what words later authors who wrote down (and then edited) accounts of his life, put in his mouth to support their developing theological interpretation. If you read any good theological work about the Gospels, you will find that even faithful Christian scholars concede that this was going on, partly because there are subtle but clear differences between the 4 Gospels and the various Apocrypha (especially Paul’s letters) that are evidence of competing theological interpretations of later eras being imposed on Jesus’ life story.
On a related point more appropriate to the topic there, I think we ought to start being very careful about referencing Hubbard as an author and thinker, particularly when it comes to specific ideas, because I’m starting to see that more of the material that he takes credit for was not only plagiarized from predecessors, but appropriated from the many around him. Hubbard’s work presents authorship problems perhaps even more complex than those of the New Testament, and just as scholars have found that there are actually very few of Jesus’ real words in the works that come down to us, it may ultimately be determined that relatively few of the major ideas, processes and “tech” as used in Dianetics and Scientology were even the work or synthesis (from earlier work and ideas) of Hubbard himself.
True !
Hi PeaceMaker – Just a short reply: You and I start from different sides of the coin, so to speak, so it is very unlikely we will come to the same conclusion about Jesus and the Bible. So be it, I’m ok with that, hoping you are also.
The differences you’ve noted here aren’t ones I would ever go to war over and so am content to rest this discussion here.
So now, onto tonight’s Aftermath Special which is why we’re all here anyway.
Blessings
Pig Latin is my native language.
@thegman77
Love, love, love, that’s exactly it ! By the way, I might get flamed for this but I don’t care. It seemed that Jesus even claimed the God of the Ancient Testament (Yahveh) to be the devil…
In St-John 8:39-44 (speaking to the Jews)
39 The people said to Jesus, “Abraham is our father!”
Jesus replied, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do what Abraham did. 40 Instead, you want to kill me for telling you the truth that God gave me. Abraham never did anything like that. 41 But you are doing exactly what your father does.”
“Don’t accuse us of having someone else as our father!” they said. “We just have one father, and he is God.”
42 Jesus answered:
If God were your Father, you would love me, because I came from God and only from him. He sent me. I did not come on my own. 43 Why can’t you understand what I am talking about? Can’t you stand to hear what I am saying? 44 YOUR FATHER IS THE DEVIL, and you do exactly what he wants. He has always been a murderer and a liar. There is nothing truthful about him. He speaks on his own, and everything he says is a lie. Not only is he a liar himself, but he is also the father of all lies.
–end of quote
When you read carefully the Ancient and the New Testaments, you can notice that the God from the Ancient one is a sadistic guy, torturing his people, terrifying them, demanding for human sacrifices and to kill their brothers. In contrast with Jesus’s God from the New Testament that is a loving and forgiving God.
I am reading the work of an Italian guy named Mauro Biglino who was an official Bible translator from old hebrew to Italian for the Vatican. He can speak ancient and modern hebrew, and possibly ancient and modern greek. Some years ago, he was in charge for the Vatican to translate literally the Bible without any interpretation from ancient hebrew. His findings were astounding when he saw that what was taught until now has almost nothing to do with what is actually written in the scriptures. Until now, he only worked on the Ancient Testament. He wrote 4 or 5 books about this in Italian and they are translated in French but I don’t know if they are in English. One of them is “The Bible is not a sacred book” or “The Bible as you never read it”
Also, in the first century after Christ, there was a guy named Marcion who created the first christianity movement but he wanted to get rid of the Ancient Testament that was evil for him and because of this, he was declared heretic (the SP’s of these times 🙂 ) by the Church. Despite this, the Marcionism has regained power these last decades.
In my humble opinion, I think Jesus didn’t come to create a new religion or a new community, but to wake us up and put an end of that reign of the devil in our world that was taken by mistake for God. Because it seems more and more obvious that the New Testament is a rupture from the Ancient Testament and not a continuation of it as “they” want us to believe. They made a sandwich with the Ancient and the New one to make us swallow it as a whole.
When I say, devil, god, satan, etc., I don’t define them as persons or so and I let everyone free to have his/her own concept/definition about those…
Thanks for saying my English was not bad 🙂
Hi Fox – just a comment on one point in your post; your interpretation of John 8: 39 – 44 isn’t correct.
It seemed that Jesus even claimed the God of the Ancient Testament (Yahveh) to be the devil…
Jesus, in this passage, is rebuking or downright rejecting the Jewish rulers and when he states in verse 44 “You are of you father the devil”, he means that literally – it is a reference to Lucifer, (aka Satan, the Devil) – it isn’t a reference to His Father whom He extols in this passage and uses as His defense of his right to bear witness about himself and to judge.
Also, about all your other points (forgive me for taking it a bit out of context); when you state “I let everyone free to have his/her own concept/definition about those”,you know I agree with you absolutely on this – you won’t reason me out of my faith in Jesus and I doubt if I could reason you out of your position but I would like to think we can disagree with love & respect to one another as human beings. That is how I approach life. We can’t always agree with everyone but how we disagree is a testimony to our character.
Also, your English is just fine!
Blessings.
“you know I agree with you absolutely on this – you won’t reason me out of my faith in Jesus and I doubt if I could reason you out of your position but I would like to think we can disagree with love & respect to one another as human beings.”
Of course! Not only we can, but we do 😉
Great posts Fox! Thank you for the info. I read ‘The Gospel According to Jesus’ by Stephen Mitchell and had similar enlightenment. You obviously have done much more research than I but I will definitely check out Mauro Biglino.
Good People: “I read ‘The Gospel According to Jesus’ by Stephen Mitchell and had similar enlightenment.”
That’s my next book. I just finished “The Wisdom Jesus” by Cynthia Beaugeault, and before that “The Gnostic Gospels” by Elaine Pagels. I agree with you – it’s a very enlightening subject.
Thank you Good People 🙂
And thank you for the info about the Gospel 🙂
Fox, I think at least some of your thoughts are supported by religious scholars and students of religious history, such as Elaine Pagels in her book *The Gnostic Gosples*, Stephen Mitchell in *The Gospel According to Jesus*, and Christine Bourgeault in *The Wisdom of Jesus* (to name the ones I’m familiar with).
Christine B. is also a contemplative Christian and a mystic. She might not agree you that “a standard procedure of any kind to find the way out” isn’t necessary, or at least beneficial. IMO, it might depend on the individual.
Should be “She might not agree WITH you…”
On my path, I endeavor to keep all of my thoughts, words & actions, loving, compassionate & kind. It’s not an easy thing to do. But, whatever you send out to the universe, comes back to you. If you have angry thoughts, words or actions, that’s what will come back to you, anger. If you have loving thoughts, words & actions, that’s what will come back to you, love.
But, hey, what do I know! I’m just an Old Surfer Dude…
I doubt that truer words have ever been posted, even though it sometimes manifests in the longer run.
You should post this view more often, OSD. 🙂
Thank you, marildi. It just makes sense to me.
The important thing is that what you know is what you know and do all possible to practice. How does it get better than that? What do you know? How to live an ethical life, even though you might not do so every instant. Take a win, m’friend.
I know what I know. And, you know what? I think I’ll have some Zinfandel with some Maui cannabis. And that’s what I know. Do know what I mean?
Interesting take on things about yourself Dude. For me I just wish it was that simple an equation.
I’ve done some good and wonderful things and some other things that I think they are still looking for me. I’ve been stupidly brave and have also hid in a cowardly manner from being held responsible. Life trudges on regardless, sometimes better, sometimes worse. There is no doubt the mind and memory of man is a blessing and can be a curse at the same time.
Maybe someday someone will work out what to with the calamity making machine we all possess but until then tomorrow is another day. At my age seeing the sun when I get up is good. That means some poor fish out there is in for it!
It is that simple an equation. Simplicity is good. And…you’re still awesome!
Tell a man you can free him from the fear of death and he’ll pay anything to obtain the secret.
Of course, the man must already be in FEAR about death. If not, you can’t fool him.
Nothing really dies. It just transforms.
And…we are all connected to each other and all things, whether they are living or inanimate. And, we are all connected to our universe. Once your body quits, you’ll be in a new world…
Perhaps OSD, you have a Native American background? I have found the very same concept in my study of that heritage.
I always enjoy your keen perception…expressed with humor.
I do.
I have Cherokee blood.
There’s an old indian saying: “Today is a good day to die.” My take on it is, we are forever.
Evidently steeped in the boredom of ennui, we decided that reality is the sum of our agreements and… Presto!
“Been curious how “who are you?” isnt a good enough command to clear non-DB thetans? It’s a lot quicker than all that Book One and R3R and Grades that normal thetans need…”
When I first saw this in the “OT” materials I laughed my ass off and wondered how anyone could read that and think for one second that what they were doing was not total bull shit.
I was taught in the military, “bullshit baffles minds.” They weren’t wrong about that. Yet we drilled it, practiced all sorts of ways of deploying it, ran around with guns enforcing it, saluted the higher ranked masters of it and slept like babies. But we had a purpose and you could see the reason behind it and you understood your existence was dependent as being a part of a team that had to understand all different kinds of bullshit. The guy next to you meant more than anything else but that wasn’t bullshit.
Scientology on the other hand is just what you said. This “who are you?” bs repeated over and over for years and bingo, you’re OT was the biggest disappointment for all that wasted time, effort and money. I never laughed at it though!
I hear ya I Yawn. I laughed because I didn’t waste my time & $ to see the OT material. (otherwise I might have cried upon reading it) I saw the scam LONG before that.
That was my reaction too, Mike. I thought, WTF?! And, of course, Hubbard said if we weren’t “ready” for it, we might die of pneumonia.
Scientology is all make believe. They just take it seriously.
Can’t agree on that one, OSD. Hubbard threw in just enough of the TRUTH, gleaned from others, to catch our fancy and appetite. Whatever I did or did not get from scio, it was an exciting ride!
I never had that type of ride…I am, though, eternally grateful that I got out early.
Pneumonia! Why not an infected hangnail? See, this makes Messiah Hubbard sound so ignorant!
Correct OSD. All of it made up. NOTHING in scamology gives one ANY abilities beyond what “wogs” have. Which puts lie to the ENTIRE raisons d’être of the bridge as given by L. Con
I believe God does give demonstrations. One has to look for them…seek & you will find. I had it happen for me several times…even when I’m not actively looking- it’s there. Proof that God does exist.
You’re not making much sense with this one Terra, ramblings is right. You seem to be developing some sort of a fixation on the need to use male erectile dysfunctions and referring to it as some sort of Scientology outpoint it couldn’t fix. In your last essay it was a “Viagra high” or some such. Do female situations with organisms get a mention soon?
Sure Hubbard got into some whopper ramblings, in particular space opera and the GE line of evolutionary fairy tales he dug up from the dim dark imaginary past. But, without promoting Hubbard in any way he shouted from his soap box for many years how this universe is the trap to end all traps and Earth is the last leg, (if you remember your student hat), Earth 1952, the last leg (for thetans). Hubbard rubbed it in hard this place is a prison planet and dumping ground of criminals and beings that couldn’t be controlled like artists etc. In other words, just try doing something a bit different on earth and watch what the MEST beings around here will do to you! Walk on water or some such trick and they’ll nail your ass to pieces of wood, condemn you for being an asshole and leave you out to die in the midday sun. Organizationally MEST beings are far more superiorly organised than any OT would ever want to be. Meat bodies have to be organised thoroughly just to survive with such frail bodies in harsh climates for starters. OT’s like to fuck around with ramdomity and have fun per Hubbard, something mere earthlings would pooh their pants at and would see OT phenomena as a great threat! Just imagine the reception you would get if you proved to someone you could control and move MEST around by thought alone – for example, stopping someone’s heart from beating! Child’s play for a real OT. Per Hubbard all those abilities were sorted out and annihilated in this universe eons ago (implant tech has its uses), then we all agreed not to do that nasty stuff anymore. However, we (all of us with Earth as a home address) descended automatically down the dwindling spiral by continuing with overts of trying to be OT again by insisting we get our own way instead of towing the party line. We ended up joining our meat/mest being colleagues here to strut our stuff more conventionally, as we agreed to earlier. You know, hit ’em with a club or something if they piss you off, not zap ’em with theta beams.
Hubbard’s contradictions are remarkable. On the one hand he aspires to lead you to believe, “you’ve fucked up badly by ending up here”, and he’s here to give you the theta tool kit to take with you when you kick the bucket and off you go to frolic around as you wish, go forth and be cause you young OT devil you! Yet, he said almost in the same breath, if we all don’t all go free, you ain’t going to make it! We’ll all end up coming back to this mud ball of a 3rd rate planet in an eighth rate system. So hand over your $ and join my Navy, and yet insisted on another day; be the best you can, get a great job, be an opinion leader, live in a nice house etc. People know you by your MEST etc.
The other misguided concept grossly thrown around with supposed OT abilities gained via Scientology is this expectancy of how you WILL come back and get another body, no matter how OT you are. Per my study of his early stuff, he never alluded to that. Sure he used lots of examples of getting body after body on the time track but that’s what Buddha also tried to straighten out, this endless cycle of birth, life & death. The concept of OT gives you the choice of having bodies or not, it’s up to you what you do with or without life, mock up your own stuff or not as it suits you or a mock up a 1000 of you and don’t give ’em a rule book or vary the rules for some and not others. The sky (or lack of it) is the limit with spiritual Nirvana. He even spoke of robot bodies being far superior to meat bodies. Meat bodies didn’t get a very good rap with Hubbard. He didn’t hold back on explaining on and on just how really aberrated they area and what in the hell are you doing in one! What he ended up doing to market his stuff was truly warped and criminal.
I’ve said many, many times, you can’t take Scientology seriously. The moment you do, you’re fucked! KSW1 heralded in the goons and thugs onto the top of the Scientology Org board and the whole subject went to hell. Up to then it was kind of fun. You old timers remember the “Aberree,” that tongue in cheek newsletter?
One thing I find just as nauseating as organised Scientology are those that sit comfortably with there fix opinions and insist, “prove it to me!”
Thanks for your opinion on things Terra.
End of my rant!
If we’re talking about science and technology, then without that “prove it to me” skeptical stance, we’d still be seeing outbreaks of polio every summer and dying off in vast numbers for lack of effective antibiotics; we’d have never made it to the moon or be communicating together on this blog either.
In those realms of human endeavors, the requirement of proof is exactly what has made your and my modern lives possible; it’s about the highest and most useful tradition for the effective pursuit of practical knowledge and the development of advanced technologies that exists!
However, if we’re talking about religion and metaphysical belief, then “proof,” in the empirical sense of that words meaning is by definition not possible, otherwise it wouldn’t be “meta” physics.
To confuse and conflate the two as Elron intentionally did with $cn, is to have the worst of both worlds: a faux religion, based on pseudo-science.
There’s good science that helps things and then there’s not so good science that makes things worse or dangerous and then there is pseudo science composed of lies. An effective science of the mind apparently still every much alludes mankind if it’s meant to solve misery, but there’s been plenty of charlatans who have claimed to have the answers. Hubbard would have gotten NOWHERE if he told the truth. I think that pretty much places Scientology in the correct perspective.
There are pro-social uses to which scientific discoveries are put and evil purposes to which they’ve been bent, but the underlying empirical science just IS; it exists as a body of knowledge, derived through the scientific method, that can be used for whatever purposes we, as moral animals, decide to pursue.
But I agree, $cn is completely based on pseudo-science.
Well, HF, in the reading I do, science has made some very strong moves towards a very spiritual view. Meta doesn’t seem so fixed any longer. Even science finally began to question the meaning of “the placebo effect”. (You mean someone can change the course of a disease by THINKING or BELIEVING differently?) After decades, mind you of denying it, they began to investigate. And try Dr. Bruce Lipton’s “The Biology of Belief”.
There are many others and (especially) many of the forward thinkers in the quantum field who are questioning long held (often centuries) beliefs. A thing cannot be in two places at one time? Ha! Science and Belief are NOT opposites. They were merely THOUGHT to be and that was enough to slow down progress. Science deals with theories, often voiced or thought DECADES prior to becoming accepted. Were they less true when first postulated? At the same time, new theories are often scoffed at and their presenters held in low esteem, often losing their tenure at universities. For what it’s worth, at about the age of 9, Einstein was thought to be something of an idiot and predicted to be barely employable.
And speaking of Einstein, he has been quoted as saying, “We don’t know one millionth part of anything” and “”Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
Fixed ideas are the bane of mankind. We are better than we had thought and believed. There were always those who rejoiced in keeping us limited to those beliefs.
You clearly don’t understand the placebo effect or quantum physics. They’re not proof of magic sky fairies, an afterlife or mind body dualism. Confirmation bias is our constant companion.
G-man, there are indeed mysteries untold that remain to be delved into and reconciled within the known laws of physics (or that require them to be completely recalibrated), so being open to discovering what we do not already know is, imo, the correct orientation to doing science.
But, while it’s great to dream and imagine the possible inter-connectivity of, for example, quantum level phenomena – observed at the sub-atomic scale – and human consciousness, which operates at a scale that is many orders of magnitude larger and more complex, doing the kind of empirical science that would reconcile them awaits the testable hypotheses, necessary measurement instruments and experiments that may eventually bridge that immense gap.
Until then, we can marvel at the “spooky action at a distance” that Einstein described quantum-level phenomena as and the self-induction of neuroplasticity at the level of the human mind/brain, but we can not bridge that immense gap between the two in any kind of scientifically meaningful way.
The bottom-up approach to the scientific understanding of biological consciousness has been developed and championed by some serious scientific heavy-weights, such as Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff ( see here for much more http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/content/international-tsc-conferences ), who’ve come up with some very interesting ideas, but very little in the way of empirical research results which could reconcile the phenomena observed at these vastly different scales…or at least that was so the last time I checked in on this emerging sub-field of research and study.
“OT Phenomena shouldn’t be demonstrated. People couldn’t have it”.
Well, evidence for this opinion exists, if you believe the data in the New Testament. Water walking, feeding 5 thousand people with 5 loaves and 5 fishes, healing the sick, raising the dead – I think these would qualify as “OT Phenomena”. Seems like enough people back weren’t too happy about this stuff and demonstrated their disapproval with a crucifixion – which was a punishment reserved for the worst criminals, the most heinous crimes. No, not too happy…that is, if you believe this. And whether I do or not is not the point. Just saying.
Aqua, that isn’t evidence anymore than the Hansel & Gretal story is evidence of witches. FAIL for too many logical fallacies that I know.
I think Aqua was being somewhat tongue in cheek. I know it is difficult for Internet Atheists to understand such humor, as your flying spaghetti monster demands absolute devotion. Wouldn’t you to have to get mac(aroni)-checked for being out-penne.
Wynski,
We’re not actually arguing.
“Evidence” for such an OPINION that OT Phenomena would not be well received.
I said nothing about such data in the New Testament being FACT. What I meant to convey was – and perhaps I could have made it more clear – for those who believe in the New Testament, for those who believe that what is stated in the New Testament is indeed factual and true, that it really happened, there is “evidence” that OT Phenomena is not well received by the majority of people.
And, yes, “evidence” should have been in quotes.
Keep in mind, Wynski, that many, many people believe that the Biblical miracles occurred. Many millions of people believe this. That doesn’t make it true, but…just saying.
.
And just what is wrong with “belief”. If it makes one a better person or helps live a better life, I’m all for it. And there have been lots of scientific statements of fact which later turned out to be totally false. Science is NOT the be all and end all of Truth. Unless, of course, you believe it just because it’s “scientific”. 🙂
thegman, “And there have been lots of scientific statements of fact which later turned out to be totally false.”
SCIENCE doesn’t make “statements of fact”. Science simply records observations made of the physical universe (e.g. two items of different mass accelerate towards a center of gravity at the same rate in a vacuum) and THEN tries to explain WHY via testing, hypothesis & theory.
I’m afraid you are NOT talking about actual science.
thegman, perhaps my post sounded perjorative of those whose beliefs I do not share. I did not intend it so. I truly do not think there’s anything wrong with “belief”. Whatever floats someone’s boat is OK with me. Whatever sustains and comforts a person, whatever inspires, uplifts, etc., so long as its not sociopathic, so long as it does not harm people, so long as it does not hard animals, and so long as no one pressures me to believe it. Believing in the miracles of the New Testament does not on its face constitute a violation of any of the above. That being said, “beliefs” sometimes get out of hand. The Crusades, the Inquistion, the Salem Witch trials, these are extreme examples of beliefs getting out of hand. Punishment, make wrong, damned forever…anathema to me. Presenting one’s beliefs is one thing, pressuring and/or insisting that “This is the way, the ONLY way”, really, REALLY turns me off. Hope this clarifies my opinions on the subject of beliefs and belief systems. Peace.
I understand that millions believe this Aqua; (I was raised Catholic) HOWEVER, that has no bearing on it being evidence. Evidence has a specific meaning and quality.
Millions believed the Earth was flat. Obviously that wasn’t evidence of that being so.
Ten’s of people believe scamology makes “OTs” too…
But, Wynski, I’m agreeing with you, darling.
“Evidence” is in quotes in my second post.
It should have been in quotes in my first post.
I personally don’t consider this to be evidence.
I dated a witch once. She turned me into a toad stool. Then someone came along and kicked the crap out of me.
I’ve been cursed a lot. Maybe we should start some sort of club?
Wait…what??? I thought you and I already had our own club! I’m constantly following your lead to learn from the master!
Grasshopper… is that you?
(Our other club is secret – shhh…)
Hell yes it’s me!!! Who did you expect? Tommy Cruise?
hehee…. OSD so funny 🙂 picturing you as a toadstool.
I’ve been many things to many people…
“Well, evidence for this opinion exists, if you believe the data in the New Testament. ”
The NT doesn’t say that this was the reason Jesus was crucified. Rather, it says that Jesus openly defied the Jewish religious and political leadership of that time, so they convinced Pilate to crucify him. The leaders of the Jews are never portrayed in the NT as being opposed to Jesus’ miracles, only to his teaching.
Oren E, the Jews get a bad wrap in the New Testament, IMO. I think the Jews were the fall guys for the Romans’ fear and hatred of Jesus. According to what one reads there, “multitudes” of Jews loved and followed Jesus around. I think the Romans thought he was getting a little too big for his britches. In fact, I think the Romans, the powers that be at that time, were so hating and fearful of this man, had so much attention on what he was saying and how people in Judea were listening and so forth, that it was inevitable that one day they would “swap terminals” with him. Even if – and hear me out – even if there never was a Jesus, SOMEBODY said, “Love thy neighbor as thyself”, “Do good to those who hate you”, “Turn the other cheek”, “You are your brother’s keeper”…all revolutionary concepts of operating at the time to which people were paying attention. They liked it. It was catching on, and, as such, it was threatening to the Romans who controlled Judea as part of the Roman Empire. So they had to get rid of him and they blamed the Jews. Well, maybe some Jews didn’t like him but apparently from what is written plenty other Jews liked him a lot, so Jesus had to go. This is just my opinion.
Very thought-provoking essay!
If the wild ass, fanciful claims that $cn makes about being able to 100% standardly return us to our Native State of thetanic super powers and god-like ability to exist without a body were true, then that shit would sell like funnel cakes to fat folks at the county fair. Obviously it doesn’t and it can’t, but that sure hasn’t stopped quite a few folks from continuing to believe in it anyhow.
So, the real question to deeply consider here is: Since $cn can’t even produce one single, solitary example of even the most minute and inconsequential Oatee super power ability, and never has been able to do so over its long history either, then why do folks who are still in continue to believe whole-heartedly in superhuman powers that, by every objective account, just don’t exist!!?
The need to believe that death is no real end for us, that something of our essential selves is not forever lost when our physical bodies become inanimate, is seemingly so strong and deep-rooted that blatantly untrue things can be so easily believed by otherwise non-crazy folks of normal or better intelligence!
Still-ins, who continue to believe in $cn’s mad mash up of completely unsupported and absolutely ludicrous space opera nonsense, despite clear and unambiguous evidence to the contrary, illustrate how strong the impulse is to believe in something (anything!) that enables them to escape the thought of their own mortality. In that way, $cn serves the same purpose of every other traditional religion which subscribes to some notion of an after-life, to some shared belief that when our bodies cease to function that there will be something more, that we will not die, but instead, just assume some other form…or no form at all, just independent existence forever more!
I’m not making the case here for atheism, but instead, just suggesting that folks be more careful about what they’re trading away their here-and-now happiness for, that’s all. Give me some proof of those fapulous supper powders and I’ll be back to stand in line to buy some more theta-flavored funnel cakes too! But if you can’t deliver on those beyond Beyond claims, then get it the fuck out of here and stop destroying families!
The real thing that gets me is not “why do they believe in a religion?” I think everyone can admit that we are wired to believe in a religion or something similar, even if they think that is total hogwash. The real question is why believe in SCN? Why not study yoga at an ashram? Practice Sufi mysticism and the dance of dervishes? Embrace the various Christian mystical traditions, especially in Eastern Orthodoxy? Study hermetic traditions in hopes of becoming a magus? (Note that you could probably do all of the above for less commitment in money and time than SCN) They are also generally more healthy social environments where people encourage each other as opposed to snitching on each other.
Scientology can be a very good stepping stone for the paths you mentoned. And for those who haven’t done Scientology, auditing could supplement those paths, as the followers generally have to put a lot of work in on handling their “shadow” or “dark side” – i.e. their reactions in life (they even use that same word sometimes).
For those like you who continue to practice it outside of the corporate cherch, that might be hypothetically possible. However, the founder himself outlawed the pursuit of any other spiritual practice other than $cn in very explicit terms (ref. KSW), so if you take the Elron out of $cn, the question arises: Is it STILL $cientology at all?
Lil davey and crew, who are currently in charge of all the trademarks, copyrights and cash, sure don’t think so. To them, you’re proposing some sort of Marildi-ism, not $cn at all.
It seems to me that the only way $cn can be seen as a “very good stepping stone” is in its negative effect. That is, by demonstrating exactly what a true spiritual path is NOT characterized by. For example, spiritual advancement is never going to be found on any path that requires you to disconnect from family under threat of expulsion yourself. It can not ever be found in a belief system in which no discussion, disagreement or questioning is allowed.
$cn taught folks like myself exactly which direction that spiritual freedom and transcendence could never lie, which is indeed a very valuable lesson, but it is not one that the cherch intended for us to learn.
If Marildi-ology can discover the birthday pony under the vast pile of horse shit that is $cn, then you’re a mighty thetan indeed! How might you go about rehabbing the reputation of this faux religion and getting it back on the track of compassion, tolerance and love? Perhaps it’s my own impoverished imagination which fails me here, but I just don’t see any way that could be done.
I’ve asked this question before, but have yet to receive any kind of detailed response. So, please give it a shot and do your best to explain how $cn could ever be reformed and catch on as a valid and effective spiritual path.
HF: “However, the founder himself outlawed the pursuit of any other spiritual practice other than $cn in very explicit terms (ref. KSW), so if you take the Elron out of $cn, the question arises: Is it STILL $cientology at all?”
There is no logical (that is, unbiased) reason why a person couldn’t practice whichever parts of Scientology they considered beneficial – regardless of whether they called it Scientology or not. Only someone who still sees LRH as a god would have a problem with this – which makes it very odd indeed that critics try to convince people of it, almost like they’re still stuck in the command themselves. Otherwise, it would be obvious that a prohibition against the freedom to select what one considers valuable is itself an idea a person can simply choose not to follow.
HF: “It seems to me that the only way $cn can be seen as a ‘very good stepping stone’ is in its negative effect. That is, by demonstrating exactly what a true spiritual path is NOT characterized by.”
I fully agree with that, and have said the same many times. I’ve learned a lot from observing the authoritarian and harmful operations of the church – which aren’t, in fact, based on the basic principles of the subject itself.
I’ve also learned from the “operations” of some of the critics in their descriptions of the core subject. I’ve seen how persuasive their arguments might be – IF the reader isn’t familiar enough with the subject to see through the specious (“superficially plausible, but actually wrong”) statements. This is a gain of insight and invaluable knowledge that also extends to other subjects – including other teachings and even politics. Think about it, HF – that’s a big gain in freedom!
marildi, the main reason that people can’t pursue other spiritual practices, is the CofS – which rules over probably the majority and possibly the vast majority of people who would call themselves scientologists, as the independent Scientology movement appears to be very small. There may be a lot more former members who mix a bit of what they learned from Scientology with other things, but then that really does start to become something else, or at least not Scientology.
I would also guess that the more orthodox independent Scientology organizations would take Hubbard’s disapproving approach to “other practices,” though more liberal ones might be more accepting. What information do people have, on what the actual status of that is?
PM, it doesn’t matter what other independents are or aren’t practicing. The point was that independents have a choice.
marilidi, to begin with, you didn’t distinguish between Scientologists who are members of the CofS and under their strict rule, and independents.
But even with reference to independents, the choice is only theoretical unless it’s actually available to people – if someone wants auditing and processing but is engaged in other practices as well, and can’t find an independent not bound to Hubbardian orthodoxy on that point, then they’re effectively no better off on that account, than if they were still in the CofS.
So the question still stands, are there any independent Scientology organizations, and how many independent auditors are there, who are accepting of “other practices”?
Off the top of my head, the most prominent ones that I know of are Dexter Gelfand, Frank and Mary Freeman, Ron’s Org, and the Dror Center in Israel. I believe all of these except Dexter (him I’m not sure of) deliver Excalibur, which was developed by Capt. Bill Richardson. And of course there are the offshoots of Scientology tech, like Spiritual Rescue Technology, TROM, Knowledgism and Idenics.
marildi, I’m genuinely interesting in what going on in the independent community, where I no longer really have current contacts – I knew some old timers who were such old-timers, that they’re no longer with us, unfortunately; they were impressive people, and I wish now that I’d learned more from them, and gotten more auditing from them, if only to broaden my background knowledge about the subject. And, I do also want to challenge claims that you have made without support or evidence – plus anyone reading this who might be interested in independent Scientology, deserves to be more fully informed.
Do you know for a fact that the organizations and auditors you cited, are in fact actually tolerant of “other practices” – that they really would allow someone to receive auditing and training, who was engaged in another practice like meditation, or even say Eckankar? Or are you just speculating based on what you think independents ought to do?
I’d really be interested to hear from anyone with specific knowledge, about the state of this matter. I would have expected, for instance, that Ron’s Orgs might have followed Hubbard’s dictates about prohibiting other practices – but I admit that I have no specific knowledge about that.
A quick search did turn up some processing dealing with apparently negative aspects of “former practices” in Excalibur, though I don’t know enough about Excalibur and how it is delivered to actually put that in context.
Sorry, PM, I misunderstood your question. I thought you were asking about independent auditors (or supervisors) who incorporated non-LRH tech in their practice, as opposed to asking whether they allowed their pc’s and students to do other practices. The former is what I’ve been commenting on, after being challenged with “but you have no choice but to follow KSW.”
I don’t have any data about the latter, but I can imagine that a pc would be told not to get involved in other practices WHILE getting auditing, as it would possibly color the results. This is actually the way it was originally handled in the CoS too – the rule was basically “while on course.”
M, I follow your line of reasoning and agree that there can be some big gains in freedom made there.
I’m glad that as an Indie you don’t feel compelled to follow either the corporate cherch’s absolutism or conform to how other Indies think $cn should be practiced either. This makes perfect sense to me.
How many actively practicing Indies do you think that there are? Is your number declining as cherch’s membership has or are your ranks growing? What are the future prospects looking like for the Indie movement? Do you see it catching on when the corporate cherch eventually implodes or just dying out completely as a systematic and unified approach to spiritual counseling?
HF, I don’t have any more info about the independents than you do. I only know what I’ve read on the internet about them, and I haven’t seen that any of them have overall data on membership.
Neither do I have a way of knowing whether independent Scn will “catch on” at some point. The gist of my comments has been in protest of efforts (intentional or not) to destroy the whole subject of Scn – even in the name of destroying the CoS. That’s their way of operating – where the ends justify the means. For that matter, I’m not even in favor of destroying the church – just the practices that are harmful.
Anyway, thanks for your duplication and understanding of my previous post. 😉
If there is just one God composed of and the master of the truth, who made everything, including us… my goodness… that’s quite a strange sense of humor you’ve got there my Lord!
Harpoona, I don’t have a “need” to disbelieve in a final end. It has just never made any sense to me. You, an incredibly complex creature which science hasn’t even begun to come to terms with, with billions of cells, all in communication with each other at all times, is somehow set in motion only once? And if you don’t get it “right”, tough shit, buddy, you’re gone forever! And that somehow makes sense to you? And you’re not even curious??? If so, we’re definitely on different tracks. The best part of my track is that if I’m wrong, I’ve lost nothing. But if I’m right? Whoopee! 🙂
Did you interpret my remarks to mean that I’m a proponent of atheism? I hope not, given that I just stated explicitly here the other day that I was not arguing for it.
I won’t go into a long explication of what I do believe in here, but just say that I remain open to both direct experience and empirical knowledge concerning transformational practices and the theoretical frameworks they’re embedded in.
What is wrong with atheism? I am a atheist. The way you dog it all the time is very telling.
If you’re talking to me, then the answer is that there’s nothing wrong with it, if that’s your chosen path. I’ve never argued against it here or elsewhere.
I had an Uncle Charlie who was pretty much 3 sheets to the wind on Schlitz beer constantly. The only thing that glowed, besides his nose, was the end of his cigar.
The bottom line is that Hubbard said that he had these AMAZING OT powers (Exterior with perception, native ability to generate and use radar while driving, etc.)
He LIED in order to get people to pay money for “services” he said would give them the same abilities he had (which he lied about).
KNOWING that fact, only those who are criminally minded would continue to push Hubbard and his scam. That is ipso facto.
Wynski, I don’t disagree with what you’ve stated above, because I can’t.
But I’m just going to point out that, aside from Scientology, ALL religions have their various and assorted miracle mythologies, and their parishioners are TOLD that these things actually occurred and, last but not least, these religions are supported by the donations of their parishioners.
If a belief system is classified as a religion it can solicit donations and promulgate all kinds of wild stuff as having actually happened.
The Roman Catholic Church is no slouch in the Miracles Department.
The Jews have all the fancy stuff in the Old Testament. Lots of miraculous stuff in there.
Now, I’m not defending LRH as regards his claims of having OT abilities and/or his claims that Scientology could give others these same OT abilities. I’m not defending this.
I’m just pointing out an important difference between Scientology and other religions. Scientology says ANYONE can have these OT abilities.
So far as I know,all the other religions say merely that these are or were POSSIBE for SOME people (usually the Founder of the religion like Jesus,Moses, Muhammed, etc.) AND that they actually happened.
The other religions state unequivocally that OT Phenomena HAS occurred. They DON’T say that ANYONE
is capable of it but they DO insist that some people were and are capable of it and that if you believe hard enough or whatever that these people who are capable of the OT phenomena can possibly perform a miracle FOR YOU. And the DO solicit money based on these beliefs! Plenty of it!
The principle difference is that Scientology cons by promising OT abilities to everyone and other religions con by making people believe that, although theyre not powerful enough to do it, someone ELSE might perform the desired miracle on their behalf.
Ok, now you can pile on 🙂 But don’t hurt me too much, I’m feeling a little fragile today 🙂
Well said, Aqua.
This is actually one of the ways that SCN is actually quite cruel. If I pray for healing, and it does not come, it could well be that God does not want to heal me at this point in time for whatever reason. After all, I am asking the Man Upstairs for a *favor*. It might have something to do with my faith, but not necessarily.
In SCN, failure is ALWAYS your fault. SCN is fundamentally magic. There is no other party. The church is never to blame. In fact, you are responsible for everything that happens to you. Even the most strict Christian sects or branches of Ayn Rand’s Objectivism do not believe that people are responsible for everything in their life.
If I am NOT responsible for the condition I am in, WHO IS? Responsibility, to me, is the ability to RESPOND. Scientology, unfortunately, has made “responsibility” the equivalent of “blame” There may be forty people who helped to get you into the situation you’re in, but only YOU can respond to get yourself out of it.
I don’t believe in any religion. I do believe there’s something bigger than us in this universe, though.
Big Bird!
That’s the one! I’ve worshipped that big hairy bird for decades now.
Amen to that one, OSD!!! I don’t know who or what it may be, but *something” put together an amazing game in which to play. And, I believe, we’re barely beginning.
We’ll find out more on the next level of life. I’m sure of it.
I believe I glimpsed some of the other side in my dream state. I come away with two observations: it looks like it goes on forever. And, it was extremely bright, but, not from a single source, like the sun. It just bright everywhere.
And, no. I wasn’t partaking at the time…
Well said!!
Terra Cognita has a very good point.
If all these thetanthings have leaned is that they must continue doing what they have always done over thetillions of years they are indeed boring souls and not worthy of spending much energy befriending.
Sad really.
I am a broken record promoter of Lawrence Wright’s (and Marty’s 3rd book, Marty’s Chapter “Meanwhile Back at the Ranch”) but Wright got Sarge on camera, in the “Going Clear….” DVD, for posterity.
The end of life admissions and orders to Sarge from Hubbard, are just so monumentally underappreciated for putting L. Ron Hubbard’s life and ideas in correct perspective.
The final pages of Wright’s “Going Clear….” book, the Hubbard admissions to Sarge, ought to be Clay Demo’d by all existing and ex Scientologists.
Yeah, that does kind of say it all, doesn’t it?
LRH is Source. LRH could not achieve the goals of Scientology, which he created. He could not make it up the bridge!
What chance does Joe or Jane Public have?
Excellent questions to ponder TC, not just about Scientology, but all religions (and I say that even as a practicing Christian myself, although I wouldn’t consider myself very “devout”).
It’s a question that I wish all people who are 100% convinced about their religious beliefs (as well as political, physvhological, sociological, etc. beliefs) would ask themselves and truly ponder. When one begins to stop asking any questions about their beliefs as ordained by their own version of “scripture” (or the word of their “leaders”), that leads to fundamentalism, which in turn, has the great potential to cause all sorts of problems for the world in general, and our own individual lives in particular…..which means that in a cruel twist of irony, they are ultimately problems of our own making.
It seems as though we humans have the unique ability to create what we fear, especially when we allow our fears to consume us to the point that we seek answers based on someone else’s “preachings” instead of thinking for ourselves.
As a side note (and so my comment doesn’t get “too deep”), I must say…..having RB talking about “boobs are theta” yesterday and TC bringing up the question of why OT’s won’t cure “erectile dysfunction” really adds a good bit of levity to this very serious issue of human rights abuses that are prevalent with this organization. Bravo to you both for the humor.
Mick, I always enjoy your posts. Just keep in mind that the playing field is not just science/religion. Spirituality, an entirely different field, is seriously worthy of discovery.
Yes thegman77. I do believe that spirituality can be very useful in enhancing a person’s life. However, when an fundamental, authoritarian dogma is applied, which leads people to believe without question (or even worse, coerces them to conform and accept those beliefs without question, or risk having to face severe consequences) that can be very dangerous.
Believing in something “greater than ourselves” can be wonderful to reflect upon in my opinion (I do so as well). But I also believe that a healthy dose of skepticism is just as important …..including skepticism about our own individual beliefs.
Thanks Terra. Definitely makes one think.
The main thing that demonstrates the SCN technological powers is the higher OT levels. I wonder if all of those on these powerful OT levels are striving to end up broken, living in a motorhome wanting to be electrocuted by their emeters while still chasing space kooties. Now those are some OT abilities!
We need to get the powerful nasty OTs that devised implants to rather make some real OT levels as LRH didn’t cut the mustard and those implants apparently work beautifully.
What a bunch of hocus pocus.
I call it 30% Jesus. Sometimes when I see a severely handicapped individual in a religious context I ask myself why can’t Jesus fix him at least 30% of the way, if he’s not willing or capable of 100%. With faith healing it is true that the blind shall walk and the lame shall see.