Yes, of course they did.
The Moneywinds is now promoting they have an “OT VIII, IX and X C/S.”
Love to go to one of those briefings and get the full rundown from Bob on how he C/Ses OT IX and X….
Of course, they will say ANYTHING to try and get people to show up for these briefings. And ANYTHING to persuade the sheeple that they should go on hoping. That there is the elusive “spiritual eternity” just over the horizon, so long as you remain a believer. Scientology — after deriding it so heavily in other religions — has assumed the old religious pitch. It’s just their heaven is not guarded by St. Peter at the pearly gates, it is guarded by regges at the top of the grade chart. Heaven/Nirvana/Paradise/OT will always be just over the horizon. It started with Clear. Moved to OT III. Moved to OT Solo NOTs. Moved to OT VIII. Moved to OT IX and X. So it is clear that even if they come up with some old COHA processes and eventually are forced to release some version of OT IX and X, once the sheen has worn off and everyone can actually SEE OTIX and X Comps, just like they can see OT VIIIs and before that OT III’s and before that Clears — none of whom demonstrate the superhuman properties that are supposed to have — there will be OT XI. Then XII. Remember, they “OT Levels” go all the way to OT XV or XXIII or whatever.
I had a hard time to follow the argument. Is it that “Scientology is a fraud as a whole?” , ” Is it that LRH was a liar and lied all the time?” or “Is it that OT IX or OT X does not exist ?”
Who is Bob Anderson anyway? What are his achievements and background ? Class IX?
“Who is Bob Anderson anyway?” He is some robot in the S.O.
“What are his achievements and background ? Class IX?” Hmm, he has been stupid enough to be fooled for 30-45 years by El Con’s promises DESPITE experiencing the non-validity of same. I think he is a NUTS C/S.
Reason : ” I had a hard time to follow the argument. Is it that “Scientology is a fraud as a whole?” , ” Is it that LRH was a liar and lied all the time?” or “Is it that OT IX or OT X does not exist ?”
Who is Bob Anderson anyway? What are his achievements and background ? Class IX?”
To answer that – but ONLY from my own perspective on things – I don’t think that Scn is a fraud as a whole , or that LRH was a lair all the time.
The problem is, and has always been since its creation, that LRH made a bunch of claims totally unsupported by a sound scientific methodology where the Scientific Method was the standard guide to analyze results and to drive conclusions from.
LRH possesses, from my perspective, an incredible scientific mind ; the mind of a genius indeed. But he didn’t take advantage of it because his own cult(ish) and authoritarian approach to knowledge, totally blinded him , and made him delusional.
Many of the Truths that Scn DOES possesses, were not LRH’s own discoveries, but rather a compilation of already discovered laws (by ancient philosophies such as Buddhism, Vedism, etc) put in layman’s terms so that the common “uninitiated” individual could be able to duplicate them and use them in his daily life. And there exactly lies the grandiosity of Scn , in the aspects where it is highly workable.
But instead of validating his sources of knowledge (which he did more or less up to 1954) , he proclaimed himself, even if insidiously so, as a sort of Messiah possessing , by his own virtues , the knowledge to understand everybody about life and livingness. He was THE “Savior” we all humans needed in order to free ourselves of the common tribulations inherent to living a human existence.
He started on a course to invalidate (even if cleverly masked, many times) all prior philosophies and religions , specially Christianism, upon which he was obsessed. He started to assume a totally arbitrary and authoritarian attitude towards knowledge , and Scn became the ONLY true religious philosophy containing actual Truth and freeing capacities.
He made VERY sure through his policy called “Keeping Scientology Working” series #1 (which he made mandatory to be read as the FIRST policy in EVERY Scn major course) , that nobody used nothing except Scn, and in a totally unadulterated way , even punishing those that dared to challenge his assertions. Those that did so, were called “squirrels” , a concept that compare with “blasphemy” in Christianism ; a sin of great magnitude.
With that policy he totally knocked out any “competition” , and made sure that he had the loyalty of his parishioners by instilling in them a fear of getting lost into total oblivion in an eternal darkness with no chance at becoming free , should they dared not to follow as EXACTLY written, the alleged ONLY path to salvation.
He alleged that he was the only one that somehow had managed to have raised about his bank, while we little insignificant humans , still under the other-determined control of a ferocious “Reactive Mind” , were only capable of messing everything up, and only capable of agreeing on bank-based ideas. Thus, he secured the total trust of others in him being right about everything he ever wrote about ; his words were Truth personified.
Throughout the years he claimed that Scn was capable of bringing about incredible states of beingness never before having been achieved on Earth. States with god-like attributes such as a “Theta Clear” , which is a being that knowing with total certainty that he is a spiritual being, is capable of living and operating outside his body , while having total perception of his surroundings w/out the need of his physical eyes. He ( this Theta Clear) was allegedly able to look at his body from a distance, and capable to operate it while remaining stably outside of it, a requisite to state being called a “Theta Clear” instead of just a “Thetan Exterior” (spirit).
According to his lectures from the ’51-’55 era, a “Theta Clear” was capable of remaining outside his body with full perceptions as a spiritual being , no matter what was happening with his body. And he (a Theta Clear) was allegedly able to “move” as a spirit , and going to any place (including near the Sun , and other places across the galaxy) while leaving his body right there laying in the space where it was.
After 5-6 different and “improved” versions of the procedure intended to produce “Theta Clears” – the “Standard Operating Procedure” (SOPs for short) – no stable “Theta Clear” was ever produced. There isn’t any evidence as such as to any PC actually having at least exteriorized at will during the process , much less about having “roamed” across the galaxy as the “Step I” of almost each of the versions was allegedly intended for.
I’ve only been able to find no more than 3 cases in my long research that allegedly experienced some exteriorization phenomena, and according to them, it was very brief (lasting only days) and highly undefined and unstable. 3 cases! in years of research.
He abandoned that route and approach , and concentrated on producing stable Clears , which by his own admission , they were never actually brought about , as McMaster was declared the “First actual Clear” by LRH in 1966 , using the technology of a procedure called the “Clearing Course” in which hundreds of items called “implanted GPM items” are called off continuously until the E-meter needle no longer falls to the right when the item is called off.
Those items are “implanted ideas” (like , “You must survive” – “You mustn’t survive , “Stop a beginning self to invent an ended self” , “You must construct a picture machine – “You must not construct a picture machine” , etc) that were allegedly implanted on us as spirits w/out bodies millions or billions of years ago by suppressive beings who wanted to get rid of non-conformists , revolutionaries , and key government terminals that threatened their survival.
By repeating each of those lines (the ideas) , one allegedly freed oneself of their aberrative effect , and was then capable of getting rid of our “Reactive Minds”.
But even those “Clearing Course Clears” were not able to demonstrate in actual practice , all the attributes that LRH had assigned them on his definition and description of a Clear.
An “OT” (Operating Thetan) was a super being capable of being cause (able to act , to function as a being) over matter , energy , space , time , thought , and life. In other words , one would become a spirit capable of operating fully in life w/out the need of any mechanical means , including needing any bodies. “The Bridge to total Freedom” was the steps one should follow to achieve such an incredible state of beingness. But the man who allegedly researched all those steps by fully doing them on himself first , didn’t have any more special “abilities” regarding that than your “normal” individual possesses. He died of a stroke , totally unable to “be Cause” over his body. ]
He was hiding from the government at the end , being protected by his loyal parishioners ,like the young DM , to avoid being indicted. For that the “All Clear Unit” was created around 1980-81 (I am sure that Mike knows a lot more than me about this issue) under the command of commander David Miscavige. All ties to LRH were cut , and only 3-5 people ? were allowed to remain in contact with LRH. If he were this amazing OT that Scientologists thought he was , the government and confronting them wouldn’t have been any big issue for him.
To totally mask LRH’s incapacity to even operate his own body while being totally inside of it , and to make all Scientologists believe that LRH had achieved such an advanced state that his physical body was now an impediment to his incredible spiritual state , DM , together with Pat Broeker , and a bunch of lunatics whose names I don’t even know , orchestrated an event to fool all of us into believing all the false claims that the founder had made throughout all the past years. This event was held at the Palladium at Hollywood in 1986. here are some excerpts of the transcription of the speeches :
Miscavage : “I’ve very happy that you could all make it to this important briefing this evening. In 1980 LRH moved off the lines so that he could continue his writ-ings and research without any distractions. ”
“For many years Ron had said that if he was given the time, and if others wore their hats and did their jobs in expanding the Church, he would be able to concentrate on and complete all of his researches into the upper OT levels, so that the bridge would be laid out in full for all of us. Over the past six years LRH has been intensively researching the upper bands of OT…. Approximately two weeks ago, he completed all of his researches he set out to do.”
[The crowd, awed and delighted, responds with oohs and aahs and abundant applause. Commander Miscavage continues: ]
“He has now moved on to the next level of OT research. It’s a level beyond anything any of us ever imagined. This level is in fact done in an exterior state. Meaning that it is done completely exterior from the body. At this level of OT, the body is nothing more than in impediment and encumbrance to any further gain as an OT. Thus at 2000 hours, the 24th of January, AD36,t L. Ron Hubbard discarded the body he had used in this life time for 74 years 10 months and 11 days. …”
“He thought it was important that Scientologists be the first to become aware of this fact. …The body is a physical object. It is not the being himself. The being we know as L. Ron Hubbard still exists; however, the body could no longer serve his purposes. His decision was made at complete cause….He has simply moved on to his next step. …”
“LRH, in fact, used this lifetime in the body we knew, to accomplish what no man has ever accomplished. He unlocked the mysteries of life, and gave us the tools so we could free ourselves and our fellow man. L. Ron Hubbard completed everything he set out to do and more. The fact that he causatively, willing]y discarded the body, after it was no longer useful to him, signifies his ultimate success: the con-quest of life that he embarked upon half century ago.”
[Miscavage begins to clap, slowly almost mechanically. His ever-present fierce stare becoming even more intense. The packed Palla-dium bursts into applause during which the crowd is led in a series of Hip-hip hoorays! The applause lasts for some twenty minutes until Miscavage finally stops, permitting the rest to do the same.]
[Commander David Miscavage is obviously pleased and, perhaps, a little relieved. Miscavage introduces Earle Cooley, Boston lawyer and recently proclaimed “Scientologist.” He is a large man with a face reminiscent of a well-fed, aging Irish boxer. Cooley announces that he has seen to the execution of the wishes expressed by Hubbard in his will; that he has contacted the coroner’s office and the funeral parlor, and that the body was cremated the next day at three P.M. (less than 24 hours after his death). ]
COOLEY:
“There are several very important matters that I wish to bring to your attention. First, the body of L. Ron Hubbard was sound and strong and fully capable of serving this Mighty Thetan [Scientology word for Spiritual Being] for many years, had that suited his purpose. …Thus, by the decision to continue his work outside the confines of his body, and by the decision to do it now, L. Ron Hubbard has given the ultimate expression of his love for you. He has, in effect, told us the Church is in good hands: “You can do it all. Your future is assured. Secure in this knowledge I go about my work elsewhere. You have all of the tools. You have all of the resources to take this planet and to save Mankind. “Support and rally behind your leaders. Together you will win the total victory and achieve the ultimate goals of Scientology. Take what I have given you with my love.”
And we were all fooled , and withheld the true information that LRH had just simple died of a stroke while being already totally insane , and that he had actually been under drugs all this time for his chronic pancreatitis condition. We were also led to believe that LRH had left his research into the state of full OT totally completed , and ready for all of us to use , as is greatest gift to humanity : Total Freedom ; the end of the endless death-birth cycle. And the cult next leader , dear DM , assumed power by cutting all heads he could in the way , including that of Pat Broeker. The rest is a very well known and documented story.
So , I leave it up to you , dear Reason , to be the judge of how much LRH lied to us , and how much of Scn is a fraud.
ML,
TC
This is a comment I received from a poster called “Radiofeedback” who posted it at a blog that I once tried to open but never actually found the time to properly set it up. He posted it as a reply to my comments here. Whoever you are , thanks a lot for your comm and open mind about this. Here is is comments then divided for discussion :
“I suppose if you ONLY use the OT3 materials to make your point about Earth’s population, you MIGHT have a valid point. However, even according to the OT3 materials, if true (which no one is assuming), there would be many more thetans on Earth than bodies. According to the story, vast numbers of thetans were brought to Earth from some 78 grossly over-populated planets. So, in theory, the increasing Earth population would simply be explained by this excess of thetans.”
The only problem with that theory is that any thetans affected by OT3 would tend to be BT’s, rather than thetans able to run new bodies. However, these would NOT be “dormant BT’s”; and, as such, some of these might take up new bodies, eventually.”
TC : You said it yourself : they would tend to be BTs and not strong enough to run bodies. And if some might actually be able to take new bodies , then those exceptions can’t possibly explain the rate of increase of the Earth population. We are talking about an almost 4 billion increase since 1967. 4 billion “BTs” that somehow “cleared” themselves with no auditing whatsoever , and decided to pick up bodies after having been millions w/out one . Pardon me , dear Radiofeedback , but this his highly improbable.
“However, I would suggest that LRH’s more frequent comments about Earth being a “dumping ground” and being used as a dumping ground “to this day” (can’t recall exact WT Lecture, but this quote comes from that special lecture series) would be the obvious Scn explanation. Therefore, in theory, there would always be new populations of thetans coming in, which would certainly explain any increasing human (body+thetan) populations.”
TC ; Yes , may be , but not enough to explain the rate of increase. I am talking about calculus ; rates of increase. Besides , my point was that , if one take as true the “dumping thetans on Earth” explanation , then obviously those new thetans didn’t receive Inc II as they were not on Earth at the time. Otherwise how come they were able to get out of an alleged “screened” planet and go to another planet to then be dumped back in, when not even an OT VIII can even leave his own body ?
You see , those new arrivals receiving OT II and OT III would be running wrong items under a blanket C/S. But LRH never ever provided for that. Do you see my point ? He just run in circles all the time , contradicting himself left and right. This isn’t competent research , but only fixed ideas from LRH , and an authoritarian approach to knowledge.
“Not suggesting that either of these possibilities is true. I am only suggesting that I do not see the same illogic that you do in a “rising earth population”. I do not believe that this is inconsistent with anything Scn believes.”
TC : well Radiofeedback , think again , cause it should be pretty obvious my friend. This is simple math , and math is my thing. There is no way on Earth that all the population of this planet got Inc II (assuming it to be true , which I am not assuming at all).
I am not trying to play with the cosmology of it all ; I am only trying to get others to recognize the inconsistencies in Scn , that’s all. I mean , they are pretty obvious.
Anyway , thanks for your comm. Please feel to comm with me anytime you wish to.
ML
TC
Mike, the 1969 HCOB is called, “Why Thetans Mock Up”. It is part of the 1980 class VIII checksheet, when it was re-released again back to its original format. It is the only known HCOB that have “OT VIII on its left upper corner where the terminals an HCOB is addressed to are listed.
I’ve never seen the New OT VIII HCOBs, so I wouldn’t know how they look, though. This 1969 HCOB seems authentic, and it was part of the class VIII materials. It is also time coincident with the class VIII lectures (less than a year apart) where LRH talks about original OT VIII.
A version of original OT VIII should have existed as ready HCOBs (even if only hand-written) as LRH clearly said that the research was done and written up.
A mutual friend (well Scientologists no longer consider me a friend, most of them at least) , a former high ranking SO officer
(Program Chief? ) who was part of the preparations of the OT VIII delivery, told me that Ray had told him that the OT VIII being delivered was only the last part of original OT VIII (sort of its “Sunshine RD” part) , the others parts being “saved” for New OT IX-X. He got very upset by it allegedly, and send them to hell. This terminal has a reputation of being honest even though he is just too damn rigid as a Scientologist, and incredible loyal to LRH. He thinks , as many others as well, that I am OSA ; their loss.
MO
TC
Thanks — so where did you send this 1969 HCOB to me at? I am curious as to who this Programs Chief is. Why is it a secret?
I didn’t sent it to you ; it was “Foolproof” that said he did. I can send it to you, though. You still has the same e-mail address?
This terminal, I appreciate him, even if he doesn’t want anything to do with me. I think he is a good man, even if misguided about LRH and Scn. So I’ll send the details privately.
TC
Thanks. Well received.
Got it ; thanks.
TC
Just “thinking aloud” here, but as a “never in” would I be allowed to attend the Special Briefing? Or would the sentries at the registration desk prevent me from entering to spare me a miserable death of pneumonia for early un-initiated exposure to the “truths” that might be revealed there?
Hi Bruce,Great post.I would think you would be prevented from entering so you don’t get pneumonia from The Truths.In my day those sentries were tough as nails.I really don’t know how I lied my tail off when I blew,and got by them.Always Ann.
Bruce, that would be OT III, aka, the Wall of Fire. Hubbard said that if someone who was not prepared, i.e., had not done OT 1 and 2, and read the contents of OT III, would get pneumonia and die. I only got a sniffle…
just as an opinion , The “Lucifer OT VIII” is more related to the name “Truth Revealed” than the New OT VIII is. I have probably read that issue at least 30x in detail. It certainly sounds like LRH ; his same writing style.
If one connect all the dots by examining all of LRH’s comments regarding Jesus and Christianism throughout the years, that bulletin then become a very real possibility as having been written by him.
Let’s analyze those points :
1. The OT III materials claim that the R6 implant (the C.C and OT II implants, plus the 36-days after the “pilot” part) included the subject of Christ, angels, demons, etc, as part of its implant details.
2. On a HCOB tittled “Routine M , Heaven” , from the BC at 1963 , LRH again mentions Christ, crucifixion , angels, the Devil, etc ; basically invalidating everything described in the Bible. According to him, Christ and Heaven, were an implant created to fool us all.
3. On the PDC lectures he mention Christ again as it being an implant.
4. On the class VIII tapes he discusses the alleged Christ implant again.
So everything points out towards an obsession with Christianism as one of the main cause of the alleged “prison” that this planet is.
The “Antichrist” is allegedly someone who comes to disabuse us of the “goodness” of Jesus. A savior that is a science genius , a great political leader, someone that finally solve the middle east long term conflict, someone that comes at times of great tribulations to unite all races, someone who posesses great intellect and leadership. LRH is described by “still affected by the cult” individuals with the above traits. He think of himself as posessing those traits.
And being the “Antichrist” is the perfect beingness that fit all his allegations against Christianism. The war against Christ (his “Markabians”) v/s the “Antichrist” (Lucifer which actually means “Light bringer” if one look at its roots). It all perfectly fit LRH’s delusions and pathology.
Then he talks about the “Biological implant” relating it to Inc II, and how that have prevented stable exteriorization, and freedom from the body.
In my humble opinion, the one who wrote that bulletin understood Scn to the level of at least an original BC graduate, and a original class VIII. Not only that , he must have had a chronological understanding of the Scn tech. We are talking about someone extremely clever and able, with great abilities as a writer enough to perfectly imitate. No offense but what Scientologist can possibly have such abilities ? I really would like to meet such an individual.
No, I am afraid that I don’t buy the “it is fake” version. It is just TOO LRH-like. But again it is only my humble opinion.
TC
Bingo, TC! Incredible post. And, yes, it does sound like Hubbard! I mean, Truth Revealed, if it’s nothing but more clearing of BTs, it doesn’t make sense. I still have a copy of it around my garage somewhere.
Thanks Old Surfer ; most kind.
Actually , New OT VIII is not about the clearing of BTs as such , as one allegedly is free of them as a NEW OT VII completion. One is supposed to have a transparent body (only for ourselves) ,as the solidity of the body is allegedly an illusion caused by BTs.
At New OT VIII , one simply verify on the e-meter our past-life memories , and determine by reads whether those memories were ours or not. That’s about it ; pretty straightforward proposition. One allegedly then discover who we are not , and is ready then to discover who we really are.
Now , as this subject about “misconceptions” , “misownership” , “loaned banks” , is not anything new having already dealt with all BTs at VII ; and as LRH was always very specific about why he called anything as he called it , then “Truth Revealed” is not an LRH-type of description for New OT VIII. I mean , it is highly improbable that he is going to call that to the process of determining what memories of the past-lives really belonged to us , and more so when many pre-OTs doesn’t have a lot of those incidents written in their PC folders. New OT VIII looks more like a type of “Sunshine RD” , to stabilize some prior long procedure. At the class 8 lectures , LRH talks about OT VIII at a few points. Here are some quotes :
“Now a guy at clear, he feels wonderful. Why does he key in? He’s still got body thetans, he’s
still got this and that. So, you take it apart, take it apart, take it apart, take it apart. And, just
today in research I was punching around to find out exactly how you restore total recall on the
total track, and so forth, which is one of the functions of 8. And found out how you did it, on
somebody who didn’t know how to do it. Somebody who didn’t have it.
“What did you have for breakfast in 1325 B.C.?” Whole track recall, whole track recall. The
same reality level as you recall this lifetime. Well, opened the door to that one.”
Now , according to LRH , one (just one , let’s read it carefully) of the functions of OT VIII is to restore whole track recall. Notice how he is very sure of his assertions.
nest quote :
“Now you’ve educated yourself into believing that you have to have this hand in order to open
the cover of something. I don’t know what’s wrong with you, because you can just as easily
intentionedly open the cover of something with intention. Except you have to be able to
permeate the cover to the degree that you’re willing to permeate your hand. That… I’ve given
you some stuff out of 8. Actually this is all the trick there is to moving MEST.”
So OT VIII had also to do with learning how to permeate things as a being in order to move MEST w/out physical means.
Next quote :
“Now in the first place, what the hell makes one of these chains? You’re already aware that
you’re mocking everything up. How come this damn chain can stay there? That’s curious, isn’t
it? Well, it’s out of 8. Actually it’s the exercise of permeation for control. Control by
permeation. And if you want chairs to tip over, and that sort of thing, without having a hand
laid on ‘em, of course you’ll permeate them and tip them over.”
“It is out of 8” , he alleged , the ability to permeate to control. Next quote :
“I can tell you that OT 8 you’re in for some shocks of simplicity. The great mystery of the physical universe is no mystery. But it is too simple. So therefore it gives problems. Do you follow?”
So the “great mystery” of the physical universe was finally understood at OT 8. Next quote :
“And as far as 7 is concerned, and 8, all the materials of 7 and 8 are sitting there, I haven’t
written them up. There’s no reason to write up 7 and 8 without standard tech in up to 6. And,
the other thing is I’m so far into 8 that 7 has gotten awfully dim.”
So LRH was very “far into 8”.
Now , it should be plain obvious that the Freewinds OT VIII doesn’t look in any way like this OT VIII that LRH is describing in the class 8 lectures. What Ray and Jeff actually compiled , I have no clue , but certainly it wasn’t original OT VIII. That’s why the name “Truth Revealed” doesn’t match with NEW OT VIII ; cause there isn’t any “Truth” revealed at all.
My guess ; and this is only a guess , is that the Lucifer OT VIII isn’t this original OT VIII neither but another version LRH worked on after his research into NOTs. One when he already had gone crazy. This original OT VIII must have been something more in line with the original OT IV-VII levels. Of course when he is talking about 7 (OT 7) , he is referring about old OT 7. So if he was researching 8 at the same time , it is logical to assume that 8 was done in the same line of research as old 7 and the ones prior to them.
On the Lucifer OT VIII , LRH had already researched NOTs fully , as it came out (assuming it is authentic) in 1980 , when LRH was already on an accelerated dwindling spiral , phisically and mentally.
These are only educated guesses and nothing more. But the above refs are no guesses at all ; they are pretty clear.
TC
Thanks TC. Interesting and it’s always good to have things rather than “Joe Blow told me he heard from person X that this was what person W said he planned on doing.”
I don’t think there is much doubt that the “original OT VIII” from the mentions of it in 1969 was scrapped somewhere along the line if it ever existed at all. And it was certainly sent to the scrap heap with NOTs. He had no problem putting out all sorts of “new tech” after 1969 (including NOTs and Solo NOTs) and if this OT VIII he talked about really DID what he claimed in these quotes, then it was the single most important thing EVER. The most dramatic breakthrough of all time. (Though this was pretty much routine from 1950 onwards, just as it is today — there is always some new breakthrough that is “coming.”).
Was this just a bunch of hype? More than likely. Those Class VIII tapes are the height of bombast and “I have the answers to everything, don’t you dare even think about thinking about not thinking like I am telling you to.”
He also announced that he had through OT XV or something done. But we know that isn’t true. And he said Super Power was coming in 6 weeks to a SH near you and was the solution to clearing the planet. And so was KTL. And FPRD. And, and and…
“Thanks TC. Interesting and it’s always good to have things rather than “Joe Blow told me he heard from person X that this was what person W said he planned on doing.” ”
TC : You are most welcome ; I know what you mean.
“I don’t think there is much doubt that the “original OT VIII” from the mentions of it in 1969 was scrapped somewhere along the line if it ever existed at all. And it was certainly sent to the scrap heap with NOTs. He had no problem putting out all sorts of “new tech” after 1969 (including NOTs and Solo NOTs) and if this OT VIII he talked about really DID what he claimed in these quotes, then it was the single most important thing EVER. The most dramatic breakthrough of all time. (Though this was pretty much routine from 1950 onwards, just as it is today — there is always some new breakthrough that is “coming.”).”
TC : It sure was the most important breakthrough. I think that this “recovering your whole track recall” button was an incredible puller of attention for most Scientologists ; the final target to attain , what most of us wanted to achieve. But as you so well put it , LRH was always making such incredible exaggerated claims unsupported by verifiable facts.
“Was this just a bunch of hype? More than likely. Those Class VIII tapes are the height of bombast and “I have the answers to everything, don’t you dare even think about thinking about not thinking like I am telling you to.”
TC : Yes, they were indeed the maximum expression of authoritarianism. And I agree ; it was probably a lot of hype , as it was with the “BK-1 Clear” , the “Theta Clear” , the “Cleared Theta Clear” , “Route One” and its exteriorization drills running around the Solar System, the “Clearing Course Clear” , the “able to confront the whole track OT II” , the “Freed from overwhelm and newly self-determined OT III” , the “stably exteriorized with full perception L-12 completion” , the “with a transperent body and freed form case OT 7” , the “able to handle power Power completion” , the “with 56 rehabilitated perceptics Superpower completion” , etc, etc etc.
“He also announced that he had through OT XV or something done. But we know that isn’t true.”
TC : Actually it was OT XXII. Here is the quote :
” There are perhaps 15 levels above OT VII fully developed but existing only in unissued note form, pending more people’s full attainment of OT VI & VII.” HCOB 30July 1973 , “SCIENTOLOGY, CURRENT STATE OF THE SUBJECT AND MATERIALS”. 7 OT levels released + 15 = 22.
And if you look at the “awareness characteristics” of OT XI or XII as listed in the Bridge, it says “Power in 8 Dynamics”. And OT XV is “Total Freedom”. I mean , if all those OT levels (22 of them) were “fully developed but existing only in unissued note form”, it can only mean he DID them as that was his operating basis allegedly ; to research any level by doing it on himself first. That means that he had “Power in 8 dynamics” , and was “Totally Free”. But he couldn’t even be cause (which is “Power”) on part of his 1D ; his body , to not mention his 2D (a dead son because of him, and a wife in jail because of him) , and his 3D (being hunted down by the government of various countries, specially the USA). So much for being in “Power” in 8 dynamics.
“And he said Super Power was coming in 6 weeks to a SH near you and was the solution to clearing the planet. And so was KTL. And FPRD. And, and and… ”
TC : Yes indeed , always the false claims.
What is really sad is that most of us had so much faith in him ; in the reality of a better elsewhere, of a much better life. Now we are back at square one with empty hands, with a broken heart, and shattered goals.
I for one, am not someone to sit down to lament ; I rather research the path myself the way it should always have been researched; with intellectual honesty and inclusion, instead of an exclusive, self-righteous and cult(ish) attitude towards knowledge.
TC
Poor ol’ Bob Anderson. He has come a long ways from the happy-go-lucky guy I knew at the Berkeley Mission in the early 70s.
OT VIII as “truth revealed”? Pfft. What got 1960s and 1970s ex-hippy, mescaline veteran, Heinlein Stranger in a Strange Land grokkers amped up was this definition of OT VIII:
Ability gained: “Ability to be at cause knowingly and at will over thought, life, form, matter, energy, space and time, subjective and objective.”
Inability lost: “Freedom from inability to be totally free and at total cause as a being.”
Now, had that been true, it would have really been something! Create or destroy MEST (I am become Shiva), exteriorize at will with full perceptics, actually remember the Whole Track, and so on.
By comparison, the vacuous “truth revealed” and becoming fully yourself is a major yawn. Having failed utterly to deliver any of its promises, Scientology now protects its income stream from law suits by promising little if anything and so fades into the carnival of New Age “religions.”
I considered the “Jesus was a pedophile” OT VIII doc to be apocryphal until the George White post about it. Hardly conclusive, but the eye witness accounts seem to jive.
Hi Roger Gonnet, Good to meet you.Let’s go swing on a star get our laughter together & continue working to expose all of this Cult.OT to Infinity has a nice ring to it but don’t dare try and find your way back out of the trap! My Best Ann B.
https://coelsblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/heavens_big.jpg
Yes, Mike, it’s exactly what you describe.
I can deliver OT IX to XIIII or to whoever wants to get more , like ot infinity and over.
Only trying to get more money in exchange foir nothing but hope that something could happen “this time”. No need to anything but lies upon past lies upon past lies upon….so on since the begininning oh humanity.
ROFL
The “Bridge to Nowhere” is a better description of the Scn “Bridge”. To totally mask his apparent incompetence LRH wrote KSW #1. In that issue he established that we, little aberrated humanoids, could only agree on “bank-created” ideas, and therefore we had no chance whatsoever to discover truth by ourselves , as the “bank” was always getting in the way.
That only “individual” (referring to “unaberrated” individuals , specifically himself as he was the only one to allegedly having “raised” above his bank) ideas were of any value. With that assertion he was already setting himself apart from the human race , making him thought of as “special” and “gifted”. We were the poor aberrated sheeple supposed to follow him towards “The Light”.
With KSW #1 , LRH was invalidating anybody but himself, and making sure that no scientist-type of individual would attempt to challenge him. He then indoctrinated all of us in what a “workable” technology was, of course referring to Scn tech. He arbitrarily claimed Scn tech as the “Correct Technology” to be followed by all of us. And through fear of “eternal darkness” into total oblivion, just as in the “What Dreams May Come” movie, he made VERY sure that nobody ever dared to use any tech but his “tech”. We became robots under the spell of “authority”.
With KSW #1 , LRH positioned himself as the great savior of humanity ; a god-like leader capable of incredible feats, and with a responsibility level that always made us feel embarrassed and unworthy.
Nothing, abosolutely nothing that LRH ever claimed that he could do, he was ever able to do ; absolutely nothing. There wasn’t anything special about him at all, nothing at all. What would you think about a man who let his loyal wife take the fall for something he CLEARLY had knowledge about (The Snow White operation) , and let her go to jail while he just protected his own ass ? He never even visited her in jail. A wonderful woman that was always at his side, taking care of his children and Orgs while he was “busy” with “research” allegedly attempting to “save the world”.
And then to changing his will leaving her with mere leftovers. Pushing a kid , who never wanted a damn thing to do with “saving the world” , to inherit and continue his money-making empire , his enslaving cult , in spite of this kid having entirely different goals. He ended up dead at a VERY young age ; totally defeated by his own father. Damn the father a thousand times.
It all started with the DMSMH “Clear”. When apparently nobody was able to produce such a state in others, his lame excuse was that nobody could duplicate his techniques. We were, all of us, many professional engineers, medical doctors, Scientists, etc , just totally stupid according to him.
Then he tackled the “Theta Clear” with his many SOPs (Standard Operating Procedure) starting with SOP III at the PDC lectures. Still no stable “Theta Clears”. Then it came SOP V , SOP VIII, SOP 8-C , and SOP 8-D. No stable Theta Clears were ever produced.
His reason? Nobody could duplicate his actions.
We had several “Clear procedures” none of which ever produced a stable Clear. LRH kept on modifying the def of Clear over the years, but not “downgrading” it , or making it less “high level” than that contained in DMSMH. Actually those defs later on became the ones for OT.
Then he tackled “Goals” at the BC, the “Actual Goals” one allegedly had over the whole track, which one had been dramatizing life-time after
life-time , while it was being opposed (the “Oppterm”). Hundreds of listed goals, dozens of pages of listed items, in the most complicated procedure Scn has ever had. But again, nobody allegedly could duplicate the process but him.
Then came the Clearing course, and the first “actual” Clear in 1966 , 16 years after DMSMH.
Then he tackled DNs again in 1969 with “Standard Dianetics”.
In 1967 came OT III. We ALL allegedly had inc II, something highly improbable (if that inc ever happened in the first place) as the Earth population has always been on a continual increase, and where the hell are those new spirits coming from ? If one claim that they came from another planets dumped by “markabians” , then clearly they wasn’t present at Inc II cause it allegedly happened just on Earth.
There wasn’t any other volcanic explosions but only here , according to LRH. And if we now have more than twice as much population as in 1966 (3.5 billions) , then by logic those 4 extra billions could not have been on Earth at the time of the alleged Inc II. So why OT III is C/Sed for EVERYBODY, instead of determining first whether the pre-OT was on Earth at the time in the first place ? This is only assuming it to be true, which I am not assuming at all. I am only pointing out towards the illogic of it all.
“No more BTs” as the EP of OT III. One was ready for original OT IV-VII. Then, AGAIN, apparently there was a problem with people fully achieving those EPs, and LRH came up with “dormants” BTs now being the reason why behind lack of expected results.
Then we needed to spend 3-7 , sometimes more than 10 years to get rid of all BTs to then be ready for recovering “whole track recall” at OT VIII ; the alleged first “Actual” OT level. Then you opened your course pack just to find out all has been a big lie , and that the total recall that one is going to have , and with full perceptics , is about the time when you realized that you have been fooled all along.
The fact is that Scn is full of false claims ; how can the greatest of all “OTs” have any need to hide from the government ? Isn’t he supposed to be fully operational and be able to exteriorize at will and go any damn place he wanted to ? Wasn’t him supposed to be “Cause over Life”.
Doesn’t being able to handle the government fall under the being “Cause over life” category ? Doesn’t being able to handle a sick body and avoid body death mean being Cause over life ? The fact is that LRH died of a stroke, the 2nd after the one he had 8 months before that lethal one. And what part about being cause over life, thought, and MEST, explain having to take “Vistaril” to handle alleged allergies to animals ? Didn’t he invented the “Ashma allergy RD” ? Didn’t it work on him ?
To ensure the continuation of his enslaving cult, LRH very cleverly made us believe that ANY criticism towards Scn were the result of hidden crimes capable of putting the person behind bars if divulged. We then had “targets” to attack ; an “honorable” battle to fight. And no results meant only your own “M/Us” on the texts of “Standard” Tech, and not LRH’s own incompetence. Can’t deny that the man was incredible clever ; incredible clevet indeed.
Scientology : The Bridge to Nowhere, The Bridge to slavery of reason.
TC
One note to correct — the vistaril was given for pancreatitis. Intramuscular demerol or vistaril is (was at the time?) a standard treatment. He did have pancreatitis. Never heard about the allergies to animals, though he certainly had acute allergies to soap/perfume smells.
Certainly, it was prescribed in the past, so I wish critics would drop sing this Vistaril jibe as it only makes those making the jibe look stupid.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11994827
Hi Thetaclear, Masterful post.Thank you this means so much to me.Always Ann B.
Thanks Mike ; I stand corrected. I already knew about his chronic pancreatitis, but never related it to Vistaril as it is not a modern standard treatment for it but, in fact , can worsen the condition according to recent research. But in 1980 , apparently it was also used for that, among dozens of others things.
The allergy to animals was a claim the CofS used around that time when the coroner report went public. I don’t remember who was the PR terminal that made that claim. They didn’t deny LRH being under Vistaril.
OK. YEs, Dr. Gene Denk prescribed the vistaril for pancreatitis. Don’t know where any other stories came from. The animal allergies is a pretty weird one as they had all sorts of strange livestock at that property purchased at great expense.
Thetaclear, I have one little question for you: WHAT ARE YOUR CRIMES???
Yes, it isn’t advisable to look too closely at the details of Hubbard’s cosmology, that is, if you want to believe in it. We aren’t supposed to discuss the body thetans because it will adversely affect our health. Not only that, if we discuss that sort of stuff we will find ourselves asking questions that Hubbard never had any answers for like HOW do thetans who have no location in time or space stick to our bodies and what exactly are the mechanisms by which they affect us? We assume it’s all done telepathically even though there is zero evidence for telepathy in the REAL world. If you as an able-bodied person cannot effect a telepathic result on anything or anybody how can degraded BT’s do so? Sticky question. And there are thousands more sticky questions where that came from. The cure to asking such questions is to make doing so a suppressive act. End of problem. Only thing is, I wonder how the kinder, gentler and cheaper, “Free-Zoners” deal with them.
I loved the scene in PT Anderson’s great film, “The Master” where the Hubbard character is pinned down to answer a nitty gritty question and he blows his fuse:
“PIG SQUIRT!”
Hi Roger Hornaday, Like this post.I do wonder how free-zoners handle those questions too.The third letter I ever wrote the So1 line,I thought it was Ron,but I know now was a group of So1 answerers- I was really upset because I wanted to know as a SOer how how I could find him & the Team (as So1 always referred to us The Team) if I got old and passed not knowing the map to travel to find him et all.Well I got a nice reply back calming me down and using the pronoun I said I (Ron) have worked all that out for you,as you Progress up the Bridge you will not worry about this.Back then I was thrilled now I am chilled quite ambiguous as to specifics.And isn’t that the same with OT Levels today? All flash- bang no substance.Always XO,Ann B.
:-)))
Thanks Roge ; I agree with your analysis of the BTs issue.
I don’t believe in the Scn cosmology as such, though I can’t brush it off neither. But I only deal in things I can prove and experience through the use of scienfic methodology.
Take care.
TC
Thanks dear Ann ; most kind. Take care.
TC
Yep, life is a strange thing alright.
The tek is what it is, weird like a lot of wanderings in the philosophical arena. Scientology organisations and it’s enforced robot like devotion does indeed fuck people up, but a lot of things do that that have only money/power as their objective.
I’ve seen the effects of 150 grains travelling at 823 metres a second too (30 cal machine gun bullet). That alters any thinking on any subject to a base level. But take the money out the philosophical equation and the game changes dramatically, but pigs fly too and tax men are compassionate people.
“Man up,” is a term only issued from ivory towers.
What a mess scientology has made of itself.
I am pretty certain that this whole OT IX and OT X is a fraud. Not to say that all of the earlier levels weren’t fraudulent as well but at least Hubbard wrote the earlier OT levels 1-8. I pity the poor souls who buy these upper OT levels.
This makes perfect sense. Since Luis Garcia forced Slappy Miscavige open the Stupidz Powerz Building after fleecing members for over 20 years – Roger told me they had $230 million by 2011 so Xenu only knows how much more they bamboozled out of members until the Garcia enforcement.
I bet this briefing is only for a few of the BIG BEANS – to “secure” their Oat Tea levels….cuz they can milk this for many years.
By the way, A Sea Org Slave called me today to see if there was anything wrong. I told him I was earning money to pay for my next status. LRH says that was important and he agreed.
I asked how he was doing on the Bridge to Total Spiritual Annihilation after serving for the Sea Org for 30 years?
He said he had not done much.
He told me he inherited money from his family and secured his “L’s”, and Bridge.
He did not have any wognitions when I asked him how he plans to do anything at his age if he had not done anything YET. He told me he was bogged on the Student Hat and that it was his fault.
That is what you call someone TOO far gone. He has gone down with the sunken ship of Scientology.
Hi Idle Morgue,Insightful post.The altruistic in me wants to grab the lost and shake some sense into them as they go down with the ship.But I also know the initial understanding to save oneself has to begin with your self.If that check & balance in gone,well let those that must wander to find Target 2.I used to feel deep sadness & I still do for children families still in and torn apart,but for those as the person you posted seemed to be,for those still in KoolAide Dreamsleep,they are on their own.Always,Ann.
Damn. That really kills me.
If that post doesn’t make you feel a little (or a lot) ill, your compassion must be that of wet cement.
Such wasted life… sad.
Hi IYawnalot, Were you speaking of my post? I find when blogging sometimes my meaning does not come through my words.When I said SOers are on their own, I meant there is no use my pleading with them to get out if they cannot see that they should get out for their health and sanity if nothing else.Looking back my post was cold,but I was in a moment of anger emotion over what happened to me.XO Ann B.
Once again, this guy is probably a nice enough fellow. And the Idle’s post was tough to read. I hope for his (and possibly his family’s) sake, that he sees the light sooner rather than later. He’s seems to be the donkey with the carrot dangled in front of him that he can never get to. How frustrating is that???
It amazes me how the bullshit just continues. First of all if any idiot head they’re head out of the sand they would know that Bob Anderson has zero authority to declare that OT IX and X is ready to be (nearly) released. On no “Let him die Pope”would take all the glory for this. And this sort of thing if true (of course it’s not) Stevens Creek Org would be one of the last place to bring upon this news. The Kool Aid is as powerful as ever apparently.
LOL Mike Rinder. Thank you for a good laugh.
Marty Rathbun explained more on these fraudulent bogus “OT Levels” Here
https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2010/08/06/the-land-of-milk-and-honey-and-virgins-galore/
Interesting comments. 3:15 into the tape below David Mayo says:– “LRH continue researching the levels above that and eventually completed through what’s called OT XI” . Do you want to say that David Mayo was a liar by mentioning that LRH completed his research to OT XI ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVfqiNcR7Lg
Sure. Though I wouldn’t say David was a liar. I would say he had been lied to. Why not give him a ring and find out what he says about this TODAY. At the time he wanted people to believe he was the one anointed by LRH to carry on with the “legacy of the tech” (which by the way is not an untrue statement, at least not until LRH then said he was a complete squirrel, joining a very long list of people who had been “LRh’s trusted tech terminal” and then ended up being declared SP).
This was LRH hype. He also said he completed through OT XV. And numerous other statements about the amazing “breakthroughs” that were “still to come” when the previous ones didnt live up to their hype. If you have ANY familiarity with scientology’s history you will be able to come up with at last a dozen examples prior to this one.
Hi Thetaclear,You know whatI just realized from when I was maybe one year old I could do all of what Ron promised as a child.I had five imaginary friends in the Islands I was one of the youngest flyers that year to go from Boston to Honululu on Pan Am.,that was in 1951.The Hawaiian Airlines gave me wings when I was three for flying the most amount brtween islands back in the day.Sci has so many inconsistencies I see now but not when I was in.Always Love,Ann B.
yes , dear Ann ; many inconsistencies indeed.
ML
TC
Forgive me Mike, I do not frequent on blogs and had a hard time to figure out how to place a response to your comment “Sure. Though I wouldn’t say David was a liar…..”
I think we agree here that David Mayo was not a liar and that you have not heard him to recant his words as noted above.
Thank you for your response.
OT levels IX, X, XI and XII are together informally known as the “Wall of adhesion” and consist solely of multi-thousand page legal waivers, contracts that seize all your money, agreements to never ever speak independently about, to, with, nearby or regarding scientology or scientologists or the tech or David Miscavige on pain of death, and a final document that bequeaths all production, copyrights, assets, intellectual property or other items of interest and value to the David Miscavige eternal trust upon your death or adjudicated status as a missing person. These levels are done with word clearing, video recorded assent and signing in the presence of witnesses and lawyers, in multiple languages and ends with a declaration of citizenship in a new, non-existent, wholly owned, operated and ruled by scientology country with David Miscavige being it’s dictator for life. One then renounces any previous citizenship in any country or jurisdiction.
After which, you will be informed of the process for OT XIIV: Find out that you are not.
No doubt dressed to the 9’s. Very entertaining new Darth Xander you tube posts, and there’s an interview of Wise Beard & Billy Sheehan which makes intimately “clear” we can all get along, if we just will. Thank you Mike, and sail on sailors.
OMG…and remember, *I* have a package for OT 9-11 ..all paid for. (My x-husband’s Mom gave he and I each one pkg…they’d bought years ago for a few thousand dollars). May take a bit to actually get
it, but ol’ ex-hubby who is still “in” has one, too. Will they accept it? LOL yeah….right. 🙂
It’s like an old coupon. “Um, can I still buy this soup?”
Well, I for one am excited. I’ll always remember where I was upon learning of this monumental momentous epic mountainous announcement (at this blog, posting a snarky reponse).
Scientology was yanked from Hubbard’s backside. The fact that they’ve managed to yank OT9 & OTX from his DEAD backside!!! Wow. Such Super Powers!
But seriously, wow, they’ve had a tough year. More public people are learning about Scientology’s dirty tricks, abuse, lingo, LRH true history, family destruction, the Hole etc.
I wonder how many people now laugh at their silly “free” personally tests and shabby old Dianetics books. Stats are down.
So, what a coincidence that SUDDENLY OT9 & 10 just so happen to come out. Can’t get in the new meat, so might was well get more cash from the already-indoctrinated.
Those lazy OTVIIs had better get on the stick too! Kirstie, I’m looking at you, babe!
Not enough facepalms in the Western Hemisphere.
It is: He is OT 8 and He is a case supervisor Class 9 and 10. Therefore the comma.
But it is typed that way intentionally
To support my theory: no one except the one that should not be named would be allowed to speak first of OT 9 and 10.
This is another regging ambush with new OT levels set out as bait. It’s not that there’s any mystery to inventing new OT levels, just make long lists of odd questions and commands and have it be expensive, arduous and repetitious as hell and the wins will be typically “epic”. The problem lies in concocting a story scientologists will believe and I fail to see the problem in that.
Wait a minute! I’m as qualified a C/S for OT VIII, IX and X as can exist. Well, given that El Con NEVER actually piloted these “OT levels” in the first place. The most complete, “OT 8” consisted of basically one low level process that had nothing to do with delivering “OT” powers.
I have OT XI – XV almost wrapped up BTW.
Do we have anyone in the Bay Area who could still attend this?
And if people are at all disappointed or unable to attain the proper, fully stated EPs of “new OT 9 & 10,” then they have a solution for that too.
It’s called the Solo NOTS Certainty Course. Since you failed to make it, you need another run at Solo OT7. Earlier grades out.
It’s never the tech. Savvy?
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Oh, crap! I just gave away the EP for 9 and 10! Sorry everyone!
But, hey, why stop there? When are the sheeple going to hear about 11 through 86?
Correct, Forever, OR … you have overts.
Yes, or maybe they are just dramatizing their next level on the bridge….OT 12 ! And they need to start their preps for this NOW.
You’ll find the EP of IX & X on the front of the Coco Pops Box, just under and slightly to the left of the cuddly tiger.
“Just like a chocolate milkshake only crunchie!”
Oh wow! Just got KR’d by a twelve year old and sent to ethics. On my qual cycle to get out of lowers the correct data is:
OTIX is the on the box with the brown monkey
OTX is on the box with Frostie the tiger.
Forgive me and welcome me back… please sign my liability 🙂
Hi IYawnalot, Love your post.May I add my Cheerios like ring shape to give little floaters for the brown monkey & Frostie the Tiger when they get thrown off the ship for liability & below.I love cereal actually I have it for lunch but not with my goldenrod present! Always Ann.
Take 5 minutes — watch one of the most vivid, vibrant and OMG alive people I’ve ever read about, read and followed. Her life was OMG, from prostitution to poet laureate, from MLK to Malcolm X to Dr.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbecKv2xR14
Cut and paste it if doesn’t come out as a link — it’s worth it. We’ve all experienced love. Just watch this and hopefully you will be inspired.
Beautiful, thanks for sharing.
Wonderful, I liked it very much.
Yes, inspiring and liberating. Thank you for sharing that lovely video. ~ Chris
Hi Windhorsegallery,Thank you,pretty amazing.Always Ann.
Could Miscavige eventually be forced into releasing something packaged as OT IX and X out of desperation? A last gasp as the people and income dry up, and after failed project and failed project? Also why is this at an org and not at Flag or LA?
Sure! He’s got many options. One of which is to pull it out of COHA, as Mike said. Pull it out of the “old” OT Levels or pull it out of his ass (DM does, after all, channel LRH.).
Hey Mare, I vote for out of his ass!
Captain Tripps I could release something MUCH more convincing, on its face, that the crap that passed for OT VIII.
Hey Cap’n, All things are going according to plan. They have for some time past the point of uniformly killing anything workable in scientology and that goes for all those pesky public who from 1982 volunteered to be declared along with the mission network. In addition to the greater majority of Saint Hill techies – those degenerates, who upset dear leader were also shown the door.
OT IX & X are just as real as the rest of the drivel but guaranteed even more unworkable than the rest of the bridge so subtly and professionally dovetailed in the heads of all scientologists since 1978.
Miscavige’s objectives have been fulfilled beyond his wildest expectations, and yet there’s still whales who throw vast amounts of money at his feet.
The picking of Stevens Creek is a pilot mission. Let’s test the waters first hey, why risk completely cleaning out of Flag the remaining public. Even he has learnt not to shit in his own bed or least to minimise it. Miscavige knows he is nearing retirement and already has his new home sussed out, why not pick up what $ he can before the empire implodes.
The retirement (demise) of miscavige is going to happen (it’s only a matter of time), he’ll never admit or believe it personally but it was always a gamble, that much he knew. But since the unbelievable legal team successes keeping him in power evolved to such an arrogant level, no matter how bad the PR is, it’s all developing into a fun game now. Criminals are generally not all that consistently creative but somehow he’s kept himself in power for decades. But rest assured OT IX & X are a mere consideration away for him.
Problem is we expect everything to operate on some sort of common sense logic and justice system, he doesn’t.
Actually, this makes perfect sense. The Ideal Org campaign is to build expensive buildings to service throngs of people that don’t exist and will never exist. Now, the creation of OT IX and OT X case supervisors is to build expensive personnel to deliver levels that don’t exist and will never exist.
Probably from Bob’s point of view, this is a great cushy job. Maybe he even gets FSM commissions off deposits he collects for the levels… Probably better than having to run around and berate staff for not getting enough confirms for events that nobody wants to go to.
Mike, you probably remember this guy . . . Ron’s butler and personal aide on the Apollo for seven or so years.
Ken Urquhart gave an informal talk (recorded) in 2009 while he was sitting in a lounge with a small attentive group. This after a speech he’d given to the Moscow indie field:
“I once asked LRH on the ship, how many OT levels he had researched.
And he said, I think it was 86. That was in, ahhh, early seventies.”
Many things were thought and said over the years apparently.
Hi Forever Lurker,Thank you an interesting post.Whoever stood in for Ron on the SO1 line over all the weeks I wrote there in the SO- did years ago mention more OT Levels.I had asked how I would meet up with the SO Team if I dropped the body,I was always thinking ahead(smile) & the letter back told me not to,worry there would be many OT Levels ahead. which would solve that situation.Pretty clever hook.Yes many things thought and said over the years by many including Ron I feel.He tested us all in the SO,ruthlessly at times.My Best Ann.
That sums it up for me, not that I paid for OT, as I was fortunate as got declared an SP before I got to Clearwater.
There must be some people stitching together something called OT 9 and OT 10. Just….wing it. Read the notes left behind from LRH and figgah it out!!!! And get it ready for a release date. Then the people who do those “levels” will either fall flat or lie their way through to completion and withhold that they didn’t get anything out of it. Then when they say so and question it, the C/S will find that they need to re-do their bridge again! Or tons of sec checking for lying. Ta-da!!!! The money-making machine goes on, and on, and on…..LOL….
This just gets better and better. The snake oil sellers are out in full swing now with a CS of the highest integrity and abilities well beyond us mere mortals (he has to wear lead boots from stopping his body floating away) making his non-e to the universe via graduation time at Stevens Creek Org. Their Orders of Magnitude are in in in!
(Could it be a bait & switch? Naw… it’s the real deal this time… honest)
So, come on down to Stevens Creek and secure your eternity once and for all. Lucky door prizes and you get to spin-a-wheel of COHA processes to path your way enlightenment miles beyond Daniel Jackson’s paltry ascension to pure energy process as first squirreled by Stargate producers.
The reges are standing by for your call – you won’t be disappointed and all sales are satisfaction guaranteed by honest Daves autoshop.
Yea. A C/S who willingly takes tech directions and orders from a failed class IV with absolutely no record of having ever successfully audited even one PC to a good result.
I wouldn’t even trust traffic directions from any of these…whatever you wanna call them.
Hi IYawnalot,I love the image of the C/S wearing lead boots to stop his body from floating away… knew a few of those back in the day,exhausting their magnetic pull just wore me out,as it was such a mixture of the “highest integrity & abilities” staggering to behold.Always Ann B.
Shared!
You know, the Scn landscape could have been completely different if LRH hadn’t written KSW #1 and rammed it down everyone’s throats. The org board even had the “Hubbard Dianetic Research Foundation” in Div 6. But, of course, that was a sham as well.
If the church actually engaged in “spiritual research” they may have come up with something over the past 30 years that they could call an OT Level. But, no, that door was firmed slammed shut in 1965, then locked, then welded.
There is nothing wrong with the goals of Clear and OT. And someday I hope someone will pick up the baton and run with it. They have the Church of Scientology to illustrate what NOT to do.
The Scn landscape might have been totally different if L.Ron Hubbard didn’t have Aleistair Crowley as his good friend and mentor. Although I think Hubbard topped Crowley as more wicked, in the end.
Windhorse
Hi Windhorsegallery, You won my heart with this post.I have said I believe now that a form of Black Dianetics was used with me by certain GOI members.I have no concrete proof,it just fits.I have always felt an undercurrent of AC within Ron’s World but it was shape-shifty and hard to,articulate.There was real evil being mixed into the cos brew a little stronger every day.Evil can pretend to be Light & Ron played that game better than most.XO Ann.
Aleister Crowley was a minor saint compared to Hubbard.
(But Parsons was an angel.) 🙂
Hi teleny,Nice to meet you.I had forgotten about Jack Parsons.Moon craters named for him I believe.Angels still dance and Demons still wait their turn with the black arts and good people get caught in their wake.I’ll need my cat & a night light tonight.My Best,Ann.
You nailed it, Windhorse! Of course, as everyone here knows, the ‘shore story’ was Hubbard was sent by Naval Intelligence, to break up a Satanic & black magic group on Orange Grove Bl. in Pasadena, CA. Ok. First off, Naval Intelligence is not now, or ever has been, in the business of saving young damsels in distress and breaking up black magic groups. Hubbard was a very enthusiastic practitioner of black magic. He and Jack Parsons tried to conger up the whore of Babylon, aka, the anti-christ. He ever refers to Crowley as my “very good friend.”
I thought the OT VIII cognition was the end of the Bridge. It kinda made sense to me. The Clear cognition being that you mocked up your own reactive mind (or in layman’s terms, you swallowed all the shit about there being a reactive mind that has a negative effect on you and at long last you are seeing through the con and suspect there was never such a thing in the first place) and the OT VIII cognition that your case was all made up by body thetans and you were never that person that these body thetans were remembering as your past. So you end up at the top of the Bridge, now rid of the idea of the reactive mind and disabused of anything your body thetans ever told you. And at this top of the Bridge (after parting with a million dollars or more) you have reachieved the state of who and what you were before you ever walked through the door of a Dianetics centre or Org. To me, that is profound. If there are higher OT levels then the first cognition might be that Ron made it all up to give you more confidence in yourself. The second cognition might be that Ron conned you out of a shit-ton of money and the best years of your life, all the while laughing at what a shit-for-brains you were for falling for the con. The third cognition might be that the chances of getting your money back are zero so you should just slink out the door and keep quiet about it all.
Roland, that was awesome! I think you’re on to something. LOL
Wow! I’m Clear, Roland RB. It happened last week when I realized the hypnotic effect of Dianetics Auditing. That’s right!
The power of suggestion written in many different ways in that book, combined with a light hypnotic trance (reverie) does make a reactive mind…and sheeple DO create that.
Now plays Beatle lyrics, “with a little help from my friends”.
Can you say “sperm dream” boys and girls? Yes, you can.
BTW: How many have seen sperm under a microscope on T.V….BEFORE reading Dianetics? Surprised to see little black pollywogs during a Book I session?
This looks to me to be the final cognition about Scientology.
What…that it’s a total, global scam?
Amen, Roland. Nice post!
See, OT IX and X DO EXIST – says so right there 🙂
Mike: “And ANYTHING to persuade the sheeple that they should not(?) go on hoping.”
I am wondering how many people will leave once they get to see the new OT comps. I’m sure at least of a few who have been hoping against hope for that this whole Scientology thing to really work out. The ideal org strategy is probably framed in a few peoples minds as follows: We need to build these Orgs before we release OT9 and 10 because once those are released people will see True OTs and their manifest powers will lead to people knocking down the doors to get into Scientology. Once this fails it will be hard for many to get excited about following the next rotten gold-plated carrot. Anyway if I were DM I’d make the new OT levels like 7. They’d take forever with regular visits to flag*. Heck, DM might simply being releasing OT9 and 10 in-order to get people back on the 6 month check treadmill so that flag doesn’t fully collapse. Anyone know how many OT7s comps/dropouts vs starts in the last 5 years? Wait you say OT8 is only at FreeWinds, So here is what I’d do. You take your OT9 and 10 intro and setups at Freewinds but the refreshers and sec-checks would be done at flag! Or heck why not require people to go to both double your profits!
* I don’t know if he’s mad enough to think OT8 one can justify needing constant Sec-Checks or not. Oh, wait this is DM were talking about so of course OT8s are still full blown criminals in his mind!
Thanks, fixed typo
This talk on OT VIII and which version of it is the true one etc, and LRH being Lucifer…. Marty Rathbun did an article on all this on his blog at one time. Also there were a few tech terminals, CSes and auditors, who are out of the church in the Indie world now, who got together and surveyed all the OT VIII’s who are out of the church and asked them what the commands were and the procedure was on the OT VIII they did and when they did it. This was culled and it was determined there were 3 versions of OT VIII floating around. The consensus then was that the last part of OT VIII was given as OT VIII and the first two parts were not done, and were possibly being saved to roll out as OT IX and X.
Where do you find this information (ie the comments from these people and the consensus). I am curious.
I know there are Sci’s looking at this blog as well as Tony’s – get out now- if you are in LA Tory said she will pick you up! You will have support no matter where you are.
Bravo! What a great post, Cindy! Everyone needs to know this! Everyone…
Hi Cindy Lou2,Very good to meet you.A most needed post- may some one come out because of it.I would have loved to have Tory pick me up,when I blew.Instesd of the cabbie who asked why was I leaving them as I should do films.I’m camera shy for one & two I honestly thought he was a GO plant talking about the new video clips on SO members that were just starting to come out.That is how still in I was even as I knew my life depended on going.Tory is a beautiful shining light for all.Love Ann.
I think the EP for 9 is “Ha!” Same for 10, “Ha!” Now why would the EPs be the same. Ummmmm…Ha, Ha! Ummmmmmm. I know if I think long and hard about Ha, Ha, I’ll get it. I must be a sense of humor type thing…
IX and X EP: LOL
Hey! I think my feeble mind figured it out! Now, this may come as a shock to everyone here, but, I truly believe that since both 9 & 10 EPs are the same, Ha, I think they’re making fun of those stupid enough to believe that there really is an OT9 and OT 10. And when they stand up and recite their ” (Approved) Success Stories,” the SO staff all start saying: “Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! SUCKERS!”
OSD, There wasn’t anything about Hubbard being Lucifer in the OT8 materials that I read. I tried to respond to your earlier question but the reply wasn’t working for me.
Yeah, the reply mode didn’t work for a little bit. …”There wasn’t anything about Hubbard being Lucifer in the OT8 materials THAT I READ.” What if it’s true that they pull the original OT8 materials before you did that level? And you got the other version? Just playing Devil’s Advocate, Maureen. This story is really fascinating for me.
It is humor Old Surfer Dude to anyone that truly does not care about their fellow man.
The Church of Scientology as a rule, shakes the stable datums of people unfortunate enough to have come in to one of their organizations for help, usually with some matter the person feels is troubling them, like engrams for example. As the person scrambles for the truth after being overwhelmed the staff confuse the person with lies, false EP’s, fake rundowns and actions, altered training, out ethics ethics cycles you name it. And then happily take the person’s money and the throw the person “in the trash” before the person wises up to do anything about it. This justifies in their minds any natter that comes up from the activities. I have been watching this go on since I was 16 and IT IS the real reason why I do not seek my tech from the church, but alternative more reliable sources. 🙂
Thank you, Lawrence! Very intelligent post.
And if those don’t fix your problems (the ones they used to hook you in the first place), OT-XI will clear it all up! Trust us.
Hi Mike, Always great posts.David,how about releasing OT1Billion & stick that pitchfork in and call it done!XO Ann.
LOL!!! Ann, thanks for my first big laugh of the day!
Hi Roger Hornaday,I try and sometimes I surprise myself.Every one here has humor to a fine art & that is how it should be at times.Helps me.XO Ann.
Hi Thetaclear, I am so sorry for your loss regarding your brother.What you said about wanting to help loved ones cross over resonated greatly with me.I in my own small way feel what you wanted and what you are doing now will reap far greater spiritual rewards down the path.I don’t think I joined SO for the science fiction aspect of it,although I had read all the SF stuff Ron wrote before DMSMH,but the reason I joined was more subtle.I really felt that some how I could help mankind,forget Big Leaugue Sales that I flunked constantly in the SO,this was more a magnetic hypnotic love missile bombed pull that I had ” come back” to help.The awful twist was I came back as a SO slave.I’m still not over that betrayal.Love Aways Peter,Ann B
“Hi Thetaclear, I am so sorry for your loss regarding your brother.What you said about wanting to help loved ones cross over resonated greatly with me.”
TC : Thanks for your kind and warm words , dear.
“I in my own small way feel what you wanted and what you are doing now will reap far greater spiritual rewards down the path.”
TC : Thanks .
“I don’t think I joined SO for the science fiction aspect of it,although I had read all the SF stuff Ron wrote before DMSMH,but the reason I joined was more subtle.I really felt that some how I could help mankind,forget Big Leaugue Sales that I flunked constantly in the SO,this was more a magnetic hypnotic love missile bombed pull that I had ” come back” to help.”
TC : I totally understand you ; I think we still have the chance to help others. By first helping them to understand the insidious nature of cults ; and then by being a good example about what real understanding , tolerance , and love for your fellows beings is all about. It doesn’t really take a lot of effort or training to do something effective for others. By just really listening to anybody , by just being there for him/her , by just willingly and affectionately acknowledging their comms ; one can do wonders for them.
So don’t bite into this idea from Scn that it takes great processes , and advanced procedures to help anyone. That was the first trap of it all ; that we desperately needed help.
“The awful twist was I came back as a SO slave.I’m still not over that betrayal.Love Aways Peter,Ann B”
TC : Yo soon will be , dear ; I can see that. You are a strong spirit.
Much love ,
TC
[snort] OT IX and X C/S. What a HOAX! Anyway given the E/P of OT VIII isn’t OT IX self-explanatory? “Wake up and walk out – now”. It’s a natural follow-on, surely.
I remember how extremely peeved I was when I read that OTVIII EP on the ship and how I was actually embarassed to attest to it. It really was a shocker after all the bridge I’d travelled, to say that I finally knew who I wasn’t but wanted to find out who I was. As I now read some of the wins people write on these promo pieces about how certain they are about who they are and what they know, I laugh to myself and wonder their reaction when they, too, reach OTVIII EP. Maybe they’ve changed the EP by now, I have no idea. But it sure sucked back around 1991 when i did it.
Not so long ago I went searching for the OT8 EP on the internet and read what you have just said Maureen, I was shocked that this had been held up to us as the Holy Grail of current achievement, no wonder it is supposed to be such a closely guarded secret, who would pay $000,000’s for something as worthless as this? This was my experience with the subject generally, the promised outcome was nothing like the reality, but you stick around hoping that the next level will be the one which works for you.
Maureen, you are the best! 🙂 You have said it all in one paragraph! 🙂 The church’s take on the matter? (tongue in cheek) 🙂 After all, in this brief breath in eternity how often does one get to feed FAKE Clear cognitions to PC’s and then watch them “glow, brighten up and shine free” as they finally achieve one of Mankind’s most sought after states of being. Maureen you are the best! 🙂
Bob Anderson and Sherrie Anderson — both *use* to be rather nice people. Bob divorced his wife Carol Anderson and she became a Class XII auditor. She joined the SO and at one time had a younger non-so boy friend for a time UNTIL every time the stats were down it was BECAUSE “she had other fish to fry” —
So she divorced the young guy and their rather nice apartment and life style etc and became a full time slave.
There are a several Bob/Carol young adults running around. No doubt all SO members or at least very much KA drinkers.
IF a person has certainty about ANYTHING I would posit s/he has parked himself on some concrete park bench and not even bothered to TRY to evolve — spiritually, intellectually, morally, health wise or anything.
The world IS changing at such a rapid rate how in the world can you KNOW without a doubt about anything?
It’s a fools game. But then … there are no scarcity of fools I’m afraid.
I’ve found it’s just so much easier and healthier to just be willing to slightly – ever so slightly shift from a CERTAIN point of view to a hmmmm I’m just not sure.
It’s going to unravel — sooner or later but I have no idea when, where or how.
But — nothing stays the same — words of His Highness HisSelf … and we know one thing it isn’t getting better 🙂
Windhorse
The ORIGINAL OT VIII was referred to has “Truth Revealed.” However, there are two versions of this level. The one where Hubbard reveals that his the Lucifer (the bringer of light). But, that certainly would have been Truth Revealed. And the other, which I’ve been told, is just more body thetan clearing. If I’m wrong, can someone straighten me out?
I did enjoy OT III but never wanted to go further, and now I think I know why.
What was the EP on OT III for you? How did you know there were no more BTs? What did the meter show?
I’m sorry I don’t really remember. This was in 2003.
OSD, Martin’s post (top of the thread) pretty much wraps up the whole affair. If you don’t just walk out when you are done with ate, then you have not reached the full ep!
Replying to Old Surfer Dude’s question about OTVIII: The Lucifer one was complete nonsense and a complete red herring. Who invented that I do not know but it has nothing to do with Hubbard. The version they run now on Freewinds is/was one of the last processes on the original OTVIII and was designed as a sort of polish-up at the end. This explains why people who did it were not enamored of it – the bulk of it was missing. It is like doing the Sunshine Rundown without having gone Clear. The actual and original OTVIII has never been released and will probably be released as OTIX, when they get round to it. There is an HCOB designated “OTVIII” from 1969 which lists part of the level/rundown
This will be the processes to creat clears, foolproof? After all the promises made by LRH, this is it?
You are wrong “Foolproof” even Marty now admits that the original OTVIII did reveal that Hubbard was a anti-christ type of figure and that Jesus was some pedophile SP. They’ve been trying to poo-poo this fact about the original OTVIII for years but it is true.
Marty himself didn’t believe this was the EP of the original OTVIII until two very well respected commenters on his blog stepped forward and confirmed they had done the original OTVIII when it was first released and the anti-christ part was true. Marty then started remembering back to this time, he was not yet that high on the bridge so wasn’t allowed to be privy to the details, but he remembered DM completely freaking out about OTVIII and people’s reaction to it – more than half of the OTVIII were freaking out and fleeing the cult after reading the level.
The original OTVIII was pulled less than three months after it was released on the Freewinds, and therefore only a few hundred people actually did the real level and saw the material. After it was pulled it was reworked to take out the traumatic reveal, it became the tepid bowl of “now I know who I am not” BS. The disappointing tepid OTVIII was far better, in DM’s mind, than the original which was causing mass defection and utter panic.
You can go back to Marty’s blog and read the comments and story behind this. I’m trying to remember the commenter screen name (I believe it was Windhorse, but it was a man who had a long respected comment history and who has been a practicing buddhist for many years now after leaving the CoS. He didn’t have any particular problem with the original OTVIII, but he knew he was in the minority on that count.) I figure he probably reads Mike’s blog to and might step forward. After his confirmation of the original OTVIII material Marty did do in-depth research and afterwards confirmed the truth of the original OTVIII material.
OSD I tried to reply earlier but the reply function is spotty on this site. Lucifer was not part of OT 8. The entirety of what El Con wrote up for OT 8 auditing is what was given to public on the ship. An incomplete, one low level process “level”. Some people who are still in think that there is parts unpublished. There isn’t. El Con didn’t himself complete 7 and didn’t really do much with 8 before he died.
Where do you get this from? And why would you know? A lot of people have opinions on this subject but no first hand knowledge, though express their opinions as fact. Were you in fact on the Freewinds for the release of OT VIII back in 1988? Or on the Apollo for the so-called original OT VIII that was before NOTs was even invented? Just what are the statements you are making based on? I know there is one person who has posted here and on Marty’s blog who says he was on the ship for the original OT VIII (and I have no reason to believe this is not true or he is just making it all up). He has a very different story to yours….
Mike I’m not referring to anything developed on the Apollo. e.g OT iv-7 and 7e.p. ,etc. I’m referring to what was gathered after his death and was recognisable as OT 8 materials. As to my sources; the C/S who help prep the materials. If YOU think that there are missing 8 materials from El Con, talk. That has been bandied about for a couple of decades without ANY verified docs. You are asking to have a negative proved.
I am merely asking what your basis is for making the statements you made.
I do not think there is any “missing” materials, I think that is all bs and have said so many times.
Which C/S are you referring to? Jeff Walker? Ray Mithoff? There was no other C/S involved in “prep” of the materials that were released on the Freewinds.
I am not asking you to “prove” anything. Other than what your basis of knowledge is. I am curious about this as I don’t know myself.
Thank you SunnyV, Foolproof & John Locke. It does seem, though, that there’s some contention floating around.
And again, you guys probably know more about this than I do as I never did that level. HOWEVER, is there any credence to the story that when COP first read OT8, he looked stunned and said, “We have a defective OT level here (or words to that effect). And can Jesse Prince shed any light on this, as I believe he MIGHT have been there. No one who’s here who’s replied to my original post has said it’s still all about Body Thetan clearing.
Here’s the rub for me: I was at the Tustin Org in Orange County, CA,, when I first heard about “Truth Revealed.” Now that is a tantalizing title! And we all talked about it at the org. I remember my auditor, Dave Petitt (now CO of CCLA), said to me, “Turn your head away from me.” I did as requested. He then said I’ll just blink my eyes and what I want will appear (keep in mind this was back in ’82 so I’m not sure of the exact verbiage). But it was THE biggest scn news I had ever heard.
I mean, “Truth Revealed!” If it was still about clearing BTs, Truth Revealed really doesn’t fit. However, if Hubbard did say he was Lucifer, then Truth Revealed would make a world of sense.
I’m leaving it up to all of you folks here.
Mike, I hate written, time lagged comm sometimes.
1) My uncle did EVERY OT level delivered on the Apollo (he is deceased) He lived until a few years ago. I got a full run down from him what DID get delivered. Nothing that hasn’t been since leaked online as the pre-NOTS OT levels. As to what people want to now label them number wise today? I don’t know.
2) You guessed correctly personnel wise but I won’t (due to a promise) say which one. All OT 8 identifiable processes (as labelled by LRH) were gathered. The one main process that was given to the Snr. C/S Ship (also a close friend of mine) to deliver is all there was.
I found the original comment on Marty’s blog that confirmed the original OTVIII lucifer story, it was by George M. White who’s screen name was Path of Buddha (NOT wind horse as I had guessed above, though he was part of the convo) Here is the comment:
Windhorse,
The anti-Christ OT8 that I did on the Freewinds was on July 17, 1988.
I met miscavige on the Freewinds just before he canned it.
I remember because I met him on the main deck for a supper
buffet. My two FSM’s did it before me and very candidly we discussed
the anti-Christ, the synthetic Karma, and the spontaneous combustion of anyone who could not get it all right. Hugh Urban agrees with me as
he has also researched it at Ohio State. The religious department there has
known about at for about five years. It is common knowledge in academic
circles
Much Metta,
George M. White
Link: https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/07/03/dangerous-thoughts/#comment-271609
It’s easy enough to google the topic and get a lot more information on this. This comment actually opened the door to a lot more information and confirmation coming to light on the original OTVIII Truth Revealed. (Think of that title, and does it make more sense that Hubbard “revealed” his true identity to you or that it’s about finding out who you are not? The big reveal was killed by DM due to seriously bad public reaction.)
“It [Lucifer & OT VII] is common knowledge in academic circles”
Whoever wrote that doesn’t know what they are talking about. In REAL academic circles something isn’t considered “common knowledge” when they have not personally inspected PRIMARY DOCUMENTATION. That the author of that post doesn’t know that destroys all his credibility on the subject.
Also, ’88 is a couple years AFTER the release of 8…
You are making points that speak as much to your assertions as anyone else’s. And no, OT VIII was released on the Freewinds in 1988 by Jeff Walker as Snr CS Int and Ray Mithoff as IG Tech.
No, I am not wrong (what I stated above). I read the Lucifer thing in the mid 1980s before the New OTVIII was even released in 1988. It was completely bogus and malicious nonsense being bandied about in the Freezone. I read it and said to the person straight away who handed it to me that it was complete nonsense. The only explanation I can think of as to why it was apparently delivered as “New OTVIII” on the Freewinds (if that story is true) is Miscavige was deliberately throwing out a red herring, maybe to see what people would swallow, or for other weird reasons that he may have had, and which is corroborated somewhat by its apparent quick withdrawal 3 months later. You don’t “change” an LRH OT Level – unless it wasn’t the real McCoy in the first place! But the 1969 HCOB designated as OTVIII states nothing about Lucifer nor actually even about what they deliver now on Freewinds as OTVIII. As to Old Surfer’s question about doing more of the OT7 processes as part of higher OT levels this is emphatically not true as when one has finished NOTs – er, one has finished NOTs. Ronit and Pierre Ethier and Greta Alexander can undoubtedly confirm this. It is a finite EP, contrary to much false data on this in the field that NOTs is “endless”. Going back to the Lucifer thing this was simply a malicious attempt to ridicule the upper OT Levels and many foolish people have swallowed this or want to swallow it, for various reasons of their own. You would have to be a complete nincompoop or have other weird fish to fry to believe that the Lucifer story could ever come from the pen of LRH.
This is devolving into a lot of unsubstantiatable assertions on different sides of this argument.
I am very curious about it and and am trying to determine the validity of the information being presented. Would you mind answering the following?
I read the Lucifer thing in the mid 1980s before the New OTVIII was even released in 1988. It was completely bogus and malicious nonsense being bandied about in the Freezone
1. Do you have any details that can confirm this. Where did you read it? Who gave it to you? Who was the “freezone” at that time.
2. What 1969 HCOB “designated as OT VIII” are you referring to? Where is a copy of this HCOB? WHere did you see it?
3. Are you saying that OT VIII was actually a predecessor to NOTs?
It is a finite EP, contrary to much false data on this in the field that NOTs is “endless”.
4. I am not sure who has said this is endless, but if it is as you say a “finite EP” I am assuming you are saying the finite EP is NOT “free from all BT’s and clusters”? As you are just as emphatically stating that subsequent OT levels do NOT address this.
5. Do you think the fact that LRH was still trying to handle BT’s at the very end of his life indicates he was not in fact complete on OT VII?
You would have to be a complete nincompoop or have other weird fish to fry to believe that the Lucifer story could ever come from the pen of LRH.
6. Just a note as to maintaining your credibility, a statement like this pretty much sinks you. It just doesn’t hold water. Why is the “bogus” OT VIII issue more or less believable than the OT III story and the Galactic Overlord and the R6 bank and people being crucified and GPMs and black and white and how terrible the “wog world” is etc etc etc. Are you saying you would also have to be a nincompoop or have other weird fish to fry to believe that?
I am seriously asking you to respond to these questions.
I am truly trying to sort the wheat from the chaff.
For me, this post is profound. I’m keeping it saved because one day when I tell someone that OT 9 and 10 and above don’t exist, they’ll produce some bs piece of promo or have been to some bs briefing.
Mike’s written this superbly and I’m going to put it to good effect.
My thanks to Mike
To answer Mike’s questions directly:
1. Well, without revealing names and locations I cannot really answer that fully. I did read it and someone quite prominent in the Freezone showed me it and asked for my opinion, which I gave him. However, I got my time track snarled – it was about 1990 or 1991 when I read it so my whole track amnesia needed a bit of updating! So sorry for that red herring of the date, if it was one?
2. Mike, I sent you the HCOB. It is dated 1st October 1969. Title I don’t want to mention.
3. The OTVIII in the HCOB above was of course before NOTs as the HCOB is dated 1969 and NOTs was released in 1978. This HCOB was part of the original OTVIII. The new one is of course “New OTVIII”.
4. Well, I am somewhat reluctant to get into discussing fine details of Advanced Courses and I wish you wouldn’t be so liberal in such a discussion (which admittedly is somewhat trite and silly from me bearing in mind that it is all over the net anyway), but as you have mentioned the “fine details” already – if one regards the EP of NOTs then, yes, there are no more after one has attested NOTs . If one does find them then it is quite likely that one either attested at a Rest Point, or one falsely attested, or someone didn’t do their job – either in the Church or the field and allowed the person to complete before it was actually fully complete. There are many comments on many Freezone blogs that state in the opinion of the person commenting that “NOTs is endless”. As I said, you can check this with the 3 persons I mentioned, all of whom are very qualified in the NOTs area.
5. Yes, I have read this story and must admit to not knowing whether to believe it or not. I tend not to believe it as it is hearsay. David Mayo has stated that LRH completed up to OTXI (11). There is of course the possibility that LRH was not complete on NOTs which is not to say that others who have completed aren’t. Such a statement is quite heretical from a Scientologist (and I still regard myself as one) but I really do not know whether to accept the statements made by Sarj (?) and others as truthful. After all it just their report and it may or not be true, or their perception of the incidents or what occurred was awry. So I don’t know on that one. I tend to believe that LRH had finished his NOTs however.
A sort of write-up of the New OTVIII can be found by looking up Arianne Jackson’s comment on it. Nice little process (if again one is properly set up for it) but the 1969 HCOB doesn’t mention it, which is not to say that it wasn’t part of the original VIII and may be contained in another HCOB that I (and most of the rest of the world) have not seen.
Looking it up where?
Question 6 I had forgotten, sorry:
6. Yes, I see your point. But we should be not trying to convince people who are not set up for the OTIII level as to its authenticity. Of course they would find it outlandish, which is also part of the story – its unbelievability (spelling?) I am not trying to convince people who have had no auditing as to the authenticity of it. The proof of the pudding is in the auditing. I personally never had any trouble in digesting the OTIII story after my very good OTII (2). Trying to convince people about the OTIII story is pointless unless one is fully set up to run the level with all earlier grades in, including OT2. One then audits the level and finds lo and behold huge TA blowdowns and big wins.
As to the Lucifer thing if one simply takes the time and trouble to read the “OTVIII” Lucifer ´story anyone with any technical savvy will immediately see that the processes and the story do not gel and is also written with a slant of trying to ridicule the subject and subject its founder to ridicule. I have read both stories of course I mean OTIII and the Lucifer thing) and I only can tell you that my reaction to the Lucifer thing was “WTF!” All I will say is that the Lucifer thing was complete hogwash and that I am also not going to get into explaining for others (I don’t mean yourself) or analyzing it as to why it is hogwash. It doesn’t deserve the attention. I think I have said all I want to say on this subject now.
Thanks for responding. I appreciate it. I understand where you are coming from. Though I think this logic is flawed because you could just as easily argue that you cannot understand the Lucifer OT VIII unless you are fully prepared for it also. But sincerely, I duplicate your view and appreciate you taking the time to answer what were sincere questions.
Thanks for responding sincerely.
I assume you sent the HCOB to the “contact me” address on the blog?
So you know, I am very familiar with the NOTs materials as I have explained here previously — both because of legal cases, and for auditing myself and others.
I do believe Sarge. I know him well. I spoke to him about this directly. Believe me, he was the most devoted and loyal friend to L. Ron Hubbard he ever had. The end broke his heart. It took him years before he could even confront talking about it with anyone.
Hi Mike, I have been following as best I can the threads posted about OT Levels & Ron.I am not qualified to have an opinion on the subject,just a comment.As I recalled Heber’s name with your help,Sarge rang a bell from somewhere.I try and be as accurate as memory serves in posting my experiences in SO.I agree that there are very few people that knew Ron the way you, Marty, and others did.You had the unique viewpoint in that you were born into Sci.So when I try and sort out who did & said what about Ron etc,I like to read what those that were there all thru the years have to say.Not as armchair spectators but you were really on the scene.Thank you I learn new things here every day.Appreciate all your hard work doing this blog each day.You are saving souls.Always Ann.
I love when pegged for specifics on claims people suddenly can’t “name names, locations or specifics” or refers to their Uncle who told them all about this stuff.
It’s highly ironic they try dismiss the information of others that have actually offered up first person accounts or names and details about their statements, and when asked to demonstrate the information is faulty all they offer is very flimsy secretive “I can’t divulge” secret agent tripe and their opinions.
George M. White and Sarge’s are trusted, honest people giving first person testimonies – not second hand stories, far fetched gossip or gospel from a great uncle. Only a serious case of confirmation bias would have you dismiss the former over the later.
I don’t find it any stretch whatsoever to believe that a man who has fashioned a “technology” to fix a broken universe would fancy himself a misunderstood angel who defied an incompetent God.
Mike – what I mean by “looking it up” is you can simply google for it.
As to SunnyV’s comments what does it matter if one names names and locations. It would make no difference to what is stated. It odes not matter one iota as to who handed who a piece of paper with the Lucifer OTVIII thing on it. And your reply is addressing two different topics actually, i) the authenticity of the Lucifer OTVIII thing and ii) LRH’s completion or not of NOTs, so what are you referring to? And either you believe what I said about its authenticity or for some reason you don’t. Totally up to you. As to confirmation bias you seem to have confirmed your own which each is entitled to of course, but I evaluate received data as I see fit. I am not saying that the two people mentioned were wrong in what they stated which if you had read my comment states such more or less. And BTW the other comment about the guy who did the New OTVIII on Freewinds was from his uncle as I recall, not “great uncle” but again such things are neither here nor there. By all means try and run the Lucifer thing as “New OTVIII” if you think it may be valid. But it is the biggest crock of shit that I have ever seen and was in my opinion a malicious and nasty attempt to denigrate the subject and its founder, upset people from other religions and/or throw a spanner into the auditing works of the Freezone.
It’s OK Foolproof, I have no intention of running any version of “OT VIII” — I am simply curious to know the truth. You could well be right that this was a malicious and nasty attempt to denigrate the subject. That is what I am trying to sort out. And it was you who brought up the NOTs completion as a pretty heavy assertion, I merely asked questions about it.
The bulk of my reply was mostly addressed to SunnyV Mike.
As to the NOTs completion data that is simply a fact as covered in the HCOB materials of Solo NOTs and the Solo NOTs EP Check. And of course the people who have fully completed NOTs and had the EP Check would tell you as well. It is not an assertion from me as such but a fact that most people in the field don’t really know about as most people in the field don’t even know that there are SOLO (underlined) NOTs HCOBs, as distinct from and as well as the 55 (54 actually as one was removed) Audited NOTs (OT5) HCOBs. When NOTs is complete it is complete (at the level of Solo NOTs), if the boy and gals doing the checking, C/Sing etc. have really done their jobs. I think if you look at Pierre Ethier’s website he has an article explaining all of this as well – he did the vast majority of Solo NOTs EP checks at Flag years ago. And as I say Ronit or Greta would also confirm this I am sure (I don’t know them).
I think there’s no doubt that the OTVIII rolled out in 1988 had Hubbard claiming to be the anti-christ, the writing style is classic Hubbard and inserting himself into ancient biblical mythology is a perfect fit for his ego. Here is a quote from the materials:
“No doubt you are familiar with the Revelations section of the Bible where various events are predicted. Also mentioned is a brief period of time in which an archenemy of Christ, referred to as the Antichrist, will reign and his opinions will have sway. All this makes for very fantastic, entertaining reading but there is truth in it. This Antichrist represents the forces of Lucifer (literally, the “light bearer” or “light bring”), Lucifer being a mythical representation of the forces of enlightenment, the Galactic Confederacy. My mission could be said to fulfill the Biblical promise represented by this brief Antichrist period. During this period there is a fleeting opportunity for the whole scenario to be effectively derailed, which would make it impossible for the mass Markabian landing (Second Coming) to take place. The Second Coming is designed, among other things, to trigger a rapid series of destructive events.”
Hubbard certainly dabbled for years in what is called “the occult” hanging out in Pasadena with a group of people that were interested in Aliester Crowley and such things. Given this background I’m sure the idea of the “anti-Christ” was very appealing to Hubbard and he certainly tries to frame the concept in a more positive light in the above paragraph. Hubbard was supremely, insanely grandiose in his opinions of himself and his work, so declaring himself Lucifer is certainly not out of character. Hell this was the guy who claimed he was saving the entirety of mankind and that Dianetics was a more important discovery than fire and the wheel for humanity! He was not humble, nor did he shy away from grandiose pronouncements about himself and his world. So what else is he going to say about himself and his work in his final OTVIII level called “Truth Reveled” – he had already told people he was Buddha so he needed something even bigger and better and given the Christian background of most of the membership Lucifer was a good fit for his ego.
I think this piece by Ortega exploring the entire background and facts surrounding the OTVIII given to people for a few months in 1988, including testimony by Jesse Prince about the problems and blow black is the best factual account out there and is far better sourced and cited than anything else I’ve encountered.
http://tonyortega.org/2014/06/24/up-the-bridge-we-finally-reach-ot-8-but-was-its-first-version-really-a-hoax/
As I said before people who try to dismiss this version of OTVIII as a “crock of shit” never have any actual facts or testimonies to to prove it. They didn’t do the level on the Freewinds during its initial introductory period so how would they know? However George White has proof, his numbered OTVIII certificate, photographs, receipts, etc…proving he did the level during that time period. People like Foolproof just don’t like or want to believe it and therefore don’t, but that in no way changes the fact of the matter that this was what was released in 1988 and I don’t think there’s any doubt it was material written by Hubbard himself.
Love your comment SunnyV. I remember reading “Hymn of Asia” where Hubbard came that close to actually saying he was an incarnation of Lord Maitraya, the purported deity who was the Buddha. This “announcement”, per Hubbard, caused a rare convention of Buddhists to be called off. Apparently they were very nervous about having the Buddha return. This cancelled Buddhist event turned out to be a fiction of course and it turned out to be a bad fib because Buddhists, who deny the existence of an eternal soul, would laugh if you suggested the soul of the Buddha had returned.
There is nothing incongruous with Hubbardarian reality in the OTVIII Lucifer story. Mike has pointed that out perfectly (Lord Zenu?). It also makes sense that Hubbard would fail miserably to appreciate the sensibilities of other people in this matter. Hubbard was messianic in his self-concept so why wouldn’t his hubris “push the envelope” as they say?
As it stands it’s just a funny anecdote that can’t be proved but the real point isn’t whether it’s true or not. The point is, given what we know of Hubbard, it is INFINITELY BELIEVABLE.
Well SunnyV if you think that Lucifer drivel is classic Hubbard writing style then I don’t know what you may have been reading of Hubbard’s.
The simple answer to all this is to compare the LRH handwritten notes for OTIII and his remarks about the non-existence of Jesus and the Lucifer document’s remarks about the supposed existence of and supposed sexual “activities” of Jesus. Contrary facts. The OTIII notes are verified. The Lucifer thing is not. Did LRH revise the OTIII notes accordingly? Of course not as the whole Lucifer thing is an invention and a poor one at that. The actual authors of this Lucifer document seemingly forgot this rather glaring outpoint in their lust to denigrate. As to the document being in red ink on white paper does not prove anything at all if one possesses a color printer or in those times a typewriter with a red ribbon. If you read the article the least it can be is either an OSA sting operation or a Miscavige operation to find out what people will believe which is more than somewhat hinted at in the Ortega story and which I had never read but (correctly) assumed to be the case from the outpoints I already knew. And if George White’s story is true and/or not embellished then I would lean very much on a Miscavige ruse to see what he could get away for whatever weird reasons he would have to do so. And as stated in the Ortega story, would OSA have a copy of the real “OTVIII” document left in their filing cabinets for all lowly non-OTVIII swampers to read? – hardly. Anyone who has been around Ad Course material in the Church knows it is a virtual death sentence Ethics-wise if one is insecure with Ad Course material. The whole scene here is bunkum.
So, you “don’t think there is any doubt it was material written by Hubbard”? Well carry on thinking this if it makes you feel happy. I stand by my comment that the document is a total crock of shit and a nasty and malicious attempt to denigrate Hubbard and the subject.
Well, this is never going to end. You will never be convinced and neither will SunnyV. And in the overall scheme of things, what does it matter? Clearly she will never be participating in any scientology practices. It seems you will. The proof of the pudding is whether you find it helpful to you. If you do, more power to you. Nobody can tell you otherwise. Despite numerous claims in scientology of its scientific, provable or guaranteed certain results if applied standardly, there is only ONE valid “test” and that is a highly subjective one. Is it something that helps you or not. I think Hubbard would have served his purposes far better had he not made all the claims about the perfect nature of his “technology” and how it “always works” and promises of unachieved and unachievable states of existence and abilities. But it is good salesmanship.
And just to answer your point about the confidentiality of the materials — first this information comes from Frank Oliver who has created a history for himself as some OSA super agent that is not based on reality. Second, once the church took the position that this was a forgery, it could NOT then claim it was confidential. Third, if you look in the “OSA Files” you will find a TON of “OT materials” from all sorts of legal cases. The problem is that SO members are not audited and most are NOT OT and OSA is therefore manned with many people who are not OT. And they are the people who are “legal” experienced and trained. What do you do — have them run out of the courtroom? Sorry to burst your bubble on this, but your assumption about how this couldnt possibly be true based on the fact that it could not possibly be in an OSA file seen by someone who was not OT VII just doesnt hold any water at all. It is entirely possible, in fact very likely. I saw that document once it was declared a forgery, and at the time I was mid NOTs. At the time I believed it was a forgery because that is what I was told. Many people in OSA and elsewhere who have been exposed to OT III have been told “that’s just squirrel material, it’s OK, you don’t need to panic, you will find out the truth when you get to OT III yourself.” What else are you supposed to do under the circumstances? But despite the admonition being in Hubbard’s own, verified handwriting, not a single one of the MANY people so exposed began freewheeling, caught pneumonia or died.
Hi Mike, I was recalling that the only scuttlebutt I heard floating around the SO Asho F,was that OTIII was horrible & messed those on it up.I certainly was not an OT per the materials,but I did not die or get sick from hearing that.I felt sad, not what a SO Member should feel about the amazing OT Levels.Always, Ann B.
“Despite numerous claims in scientology of its scientific, provable or guaranteed certain results if applied standardly, there is only ONE valid “test” and that is a highly subjective one. Is it something that helps you or not. I think Hubbard would have served his purposes far better had he not made all the claims about the perfect nature of his “technology” and how it “always works” and promises of unachieved and unachievable states of existence and abilities. But it is good salesmanship.”
TC : Great post , Mike ; great indeed. when all has been said and done , the only valid test is “did it work for you ?” For me , it has worked in a lot of ways , specially in helping others. I’ve have never doubted the workability of many , actually dozens or even hundreds , of the Scn processes and procedures. But as I had said before , only by totally freeing ourselves from Scn as a cult , can one then begin to use its workable parts ,and be able to differentiate the basic truths from the bullshit ; the workable parts from the enslaving ones.
“Many people in OSA and elsewhere who have been exposed to OT III have been told “that’s just squirrel material, it’s OK, you don’t need to panic, you will find out the truth when you get to OT III yourself.” What else are you supposed to do under the circumstances? But despite the admonition being in Hubbard’s own, verified handwriting, not a single one of the MANY people so exposed began freewheeling, caught pneumonia or died.”
TC : I think that the single most enslaving part of Scn is the “confidentiality” of its upper level materials. I’ll explain myself : by making those levels confidential and not to be discussed ever with anyone else , not even with people who had done those levels ; they (the levels) were prevented from being properly analyzed and evaluated. It all became an issue of “Faith” then. Faith in your leader being right about all of his claims and assertions ; a death of consciousness all by itself ,and an abandonment of free will.
A big secrecy was enforced in all of us , one cleverly kept with the bait of alleged “powerful” states of beingness once that secret path had been fully traveled to its “end”. The perfect pull was created by LRH , one that kept many of us consistently paying for the next service. The energy needed to continuously travel that route was provided by the most powerful fuel of all :HOPE and FAITH. Faith that the founder knew what he was doing , and would never , EVER deceive us. Hope that those states were real , and that one day , before this life-time was over , we would rise above the sufferings and travails inherent to being human.
Even now , right here at the field , “Independent” Scientologist , who are only independent of the CofS , buy into all this bull-shit of confidentiality , and prevent themselves from observing the obvious , and using personal integrity applied to this issue. Even out here “freed” from the grip of the Church , many continue the same fundamentalist practices of LRH , and give up their free will to blindly follow a “leader” that cleverly fooled all of us.
As I have said many times , Scn is the most powerful and enslaving cult of all as it deal in BOTH : truths and falsities as well. But only a totally free mind will ever be able to recognize it.
TC
P.S.
In my prior post , by “obliterating the cult” , I only meant the cult(ish) part of the philosophy itself. I wasn’t talking about hurting anyone or destroying anything physical. Perhaps I got carried away by my own frustration. My dear brother passed away a few years ago , and I really was hoping in being able to comm with him and telling him how sorry I am that I failed to help him when he needed it. That I am really sorry that I wasn’t there for him. You see , I never wanted “super human” powers. I never wanted to be able to move the Empire State Building with my mind , nor be able to travel the whole galaxy. I only wanted to be enough spiritually rehabilitated so as to be able to guide my loves ones through the confusion of being dead , to guide them to a better elsewhere , to be a bridge for communication. I guess , that I would have to continue that travel on my own now , in a totally new research with the right attitude this time.
Foolproof : “The simple answer to all this is to compare the LRH handwritten notes for OTIII and his remarks about the non-existence of Jesus and the Lucifer document’s remarks about the supposed existence of and supposed sexual “activities” of Jesus. Contrary facts. The OTIII notes are verified. The Lucifer thing is not. Did LRH revise the OTIII notes accordingly? Of course not as the whole Lucifer thing is an invention and a poor one at that. The actual authors of this Lucifer document seemingly forgot this rather glaring outpoint in their lust to denigrate.”
TC : Now , that’s just a very flawed argument indeed. In the first place , OT III came in 1966-67 , and LRH is quite known for changing many of his assertions on many subjects. I mean , I could probably write an entire book just on that subject. He did it with OT III with its alleged “no more BTs” EP ; then he found out that he was wrong , and found out about “Dormant BTs”. He always said that he had produced Clears , but the first Clearing course completion , the south-African John McMaster , was officially declared as the first “Clear” by LRH in 1966. So obviously , the “Clears” before that weren’t really Clears. Then came Standard Dianetics in 1969 that allegedly was capable of producing Clears. Then NED in 1978. So now we had a C.C Clear , and a DNs Clear. In NED with the “Clear Cognition” ( the cognition that one is mocking up the Reactive Mind , basically ; a concept existing since the late ’50s , as the famous “Step 6” of the “Clear Procedure”) , and in the C.C by just running out all of the implanted GPMs items by repetitive technique , a very long process.
In the second place , how could LRH revise OT III to include the materials of an OT level higher than that ; one allegedly where he would finally “reveal” the “truth” he was hiding from us all those years ? You are not making any sense here , Foolproof. Remember that the Lucifer document (assuming it to be authentic) was ONLY meant for people starting New OT VIII , as they were the ones allegedly “ready” to receive such a “privileged” information.
In the 3rd place , LRH is well known for leaving prior lectures and books unrevised as the DMSMH book and many others , and all of the lectures from the BC as well. About the only issues that he did revised from time to time , and almost never to invalidate prior data , were HCOBs themselves , and nothing more.
You see Foolproof , I’ve spent the last 15 years of my life just chronologically researching Scientology. I know EVERY lecture , EVERY bulletin , EVERY book , excepting only the HCOBs on the LS , and the few HCOBs on NEW OT VIII , which I am not even interested in them , but ONLY in original VIII. Add to that a training in the subject of “Mathematical Proof” , inductive and deductive , with experience in actual scientific research. Scn is just very flawed “science”. Actually it isn’t different from any known religion in that it actually require FAITH for it to “WORK” as advertized. Faith in LRH being a god-like individual right about everything he ever wrote about ; the most self-righteous attitude that I have ever seen.
Foolproof : ” So, you “don’t think there is any doubt it was material written by Hubbard”? Well carry on thinking this if it makes you feel happy. I stand by my comment that the document is a total crock of shit and a nasty and malicious attempt to denigrate Hubbard and the subject.”
TC : I am afraid that the subject of Scn and LRH were “denigrated” long before the Lucifer issue. I don’t really think that you have researched the history of Scn and LRH ; otherwise , you wouldn’t be making those claims. Are you to tell me that a man who wrote with his own hands that by “publicly departing Scn” , you would become an SP to be expelled , is not worthy of denigration ? Are you to tell me that the man who wrote that any criticism of Scn or himself (and he was very specific about referring to ANY criticism) are only caused by hidden crimes to be discovered , exposed , and the target totally destroyed , isn’t worthy of denigration ? Are you to tell me that the man who set the way for the “solution” of disconnecting families and tearing them apart is not worthy of criticism and denigration ?
Damn LRH a thousand times for all I care. His cult will be totally obliterated ; I’ll make very sure of that. The Phoenix bird will raise from the ashes of the burnt authoritarianism , unreason , self-abasement , self-denial ; and the temple of reason , of real help , of inclusion , of self-determined knowledge , will be built in its place , and Scn will just be a footnote in a rare history book.
Real Freedom shall never die.
TC
Hi Thetaclear,An amazing post.Thank you for all that is to come.Always loved the Phoenix bird image & legend.Did all the lectures of that name,much prefer your version.Always Love Ann B.
Thanks, dear Ann ; most kind.
Yes, I always loved the legend of the Phoenix Bird myself. It is the symbol of rebirth from the ashes of our own imperfections, with a new spiritual awareness, and a new concept about life and existence.
Take care.
ML,
TC
Thetaclear you clearly aren’t taking any prisoners! Reading yours and Mike’s responses to this matter was like eating Ben and Jerry’s Ice Cream! 🙂
Thanks, dear RogerHornaday ; most kind.
ML,
TC
Hi Roger Hornaday, I second your post.David cannot have any of our ice cream And I can be a fiend about ice cream.XO Ann B.
Well, it ultimately comes down to this: For these types of materials El Con ALWAYS hand wrote them or, voice recorded them.
Thus, if a person wants to credibly assert the EXISTENCE of a given piece of El Con tech, they have to produce one of those two “docs” or, as they say on the interwebtubes, STFU. 😉