Yowza — they actually picked this quote out to publish it?
This isn’t very complimentary about children and frankly, does not make a whole lot of sense. If the cause of all this terribleness is their reactive mind, why should it be worse when they are children? How does your reactive mind alleviate itself as you grow older if you don’t have auditing?
Whether L. Ron Hubbard loved or hated children (he certainly fathered plenty – but didn’t seem to fare too well raising them…) this yet again demonstrates the mindless robotism prevalent in scientology. Because L. Ron Hubbard said something it must be good. And should be promoted and presented as if everyone should think it is wonderful.
To me it is a very warped view of children — mine at least and many others I know — and is remarkably lacking in compassion or apparent understanding. It certainly opens the door to those who hang on his every word to have a very jaundiced attitude toward children (“very rough case shape”) that in my view is very unhealthy. In my experience generally children are NOT in rough “case shape”. I suspect this is one of those sweeping statements made by Hubbard proclaiming them to apply to everyone when he was pissed off at one person.
In either event, no matter how you cut it, this statement is not something that should be pulled out and promoted. The idea that every word Hubbard ever spoke or wrote is gospel truth and should just be wordcleared until you see how great it is is sad, if not troubling.
Yes Hubbard found the road to freedom which led him to desire suicide.
Yes Hubbard was expert in children:
One suicide to get away from crazy dad
One all screwed up and said daddy was into the black arts
One son, who I talked to, Arthur, looked down at the floor when talking about dad. He looked pained when discussing his father.
One daughter disowned by dad
One daughter is still in thought prison
Yes, L Ron Hubbard is a great model of child rearing.
If they are behaving like an implanted-PTS-low toned meat bodies……….
The chain locker will do.
Some Ron apologists will see me as the one to judge.
That is the level of denial.
Point out child abuse and you become a Ron hater to some.
I’m interested to know specifically what Ron was doing in 1975, when he turned his attention to children running their past life engrams. Scientology was around for decades by then and children were present for auditing. He must have been given cases where the child wasn’t “winning” on his theories. Children who didn’t chose Scientology but who were brought in for processing and indoctrination by their parents. The little guys must have been a headache for Ron when they weren’t singing the praises of Scientology & Ron, and were probably asking to go play or be with their friends instead. Sounds like being in pretty good shape to me.
The rationale as I recall it was that children had just come through the worst kind of engram (death), the most comprehensive kind of loss/”secondary” (again, death with loss of their own identity and all their relationships and possessions), possibly a new round of between-lives implanting, the trauma of seeking out a new family to be born into while in a semi-conscious or unconscious state, and then another big engram (birth). Then, if the child remembered anything of the previous life, they were likely to get loads of invalidation of those memories while enduring the indoctrination into a new family — and possibly new culture, language, and religion.
I’m feeling stressed just writing that! Who would not be pretty “restimulated” and in bad case shape if all that were true?
To be clear, I’m not saying I buy any of that in terms of reality based on scientific evidence — just that it is how I recall the reasoning behind the religious belief in Scientology. This bears some similarities to other religions, say Hinduism, where you might show up with painful memories of your most recent, past-life losses along with having your tote-bag full of karma slung over your shoulder.
In my Scientology experience, when children got cranky, for example if they needed a nap or were hungry, Scientologists called this being “banky” — meaning that they were dramatizing or acting out parts of their “bank” or “reactive mind.” Kids were “banky” thetans in little bodies who were restimulated by their recent series of engrams from death and birth and from the secondary of losing everything that goes along with having a life and losing it.
(We ordinary people suffer grief at losing just one person; how much grief would a dying person experience in losing everyone — and everything? Whether you believe in a soul surviving body death or not, this aspect of losing everything is still an imposing challenge for any person confronting the end of his or her life. Some people can let go, but some cannot very easily.)
I’ve always been more than a tad disgusted by the thought of Elron keeping a cadre of prepubescent (mostly) girls in halter tops and hot pants as his entourage of “messengers” to do his every bidding in public as well as behind closed doors. Could that experience have warped these poor children as well as Elron’s “scientific” “scriptural” conclusions about children?
Agreed. The inappropriate use of pre-teen and teenaged girls on the ship is a reflection of his morality and values towards children and I will also say: females. Not a shining moment.
I wonder the horrors of Shelly Miscaivage’s pre-SCN home life…..if being this type of childhood messenger was an upgrade? I really hope this poor woman breaks free someday. Being at CST for this length of time cannot be good.
I think a kid needs to be a kid, then a teenager, followed by young adult, etc. And it seems each stage of one’s life, one goes through things, like “play”, “dating”,and so forth. Hubbard pushed kids being thetans in small bodies; all grown up in terms of maturity but with a young body. The point is, those kids don’t get to be a kid and go through necessary periods to grow up. That can’t be good.
Mike,
Does trashing Trump really belong here?
The same goes for ESMB and Zenu.net.
And the Underground Bunker.
+1
No. I try to weed out political comments. But I am traveling so handicapped on reviewing comments. Ignore them as they are off topic. Please dont take the bait to turn this into a back and forth on Trump and Clinton. As you didnt.
Like (;
Shucks, drawing parallels between Martha Stout’s book and ______ would be sooooo much fun!
It doesn’t seem to have jibed with Hubbard’s fanciful notions of reality for children’s behaviors to be consistent with and limited to the unfinished development of their cerebral cortex. Our bodies are just a piece of ‘meat’ you know. Children are big thetans in little bodies so don’t be blinded by their meat-body cuteness.
Paradoxically however, children have CASE and it’s terrible! Look at ’em scream and cry when they can’t have a piece of candy! Adults have tantrums too when they don’t get what they want but it’s NEVER about something so trifling as a piece of candy. It’s over important stuff like somebody criticizing you instead of praising you. You have every right to ruin their lives forever!
Children’s terrible case sometimes makes them mean to other children and point at them and call them ugly names. They can be awfully cruel. Although adults sometimes call their friends, “SP” and won’t talk to them anymore, that’s completely different. That’s adult ETHICS.
Yes, Hubbard was right. Children are a real mess, aren’t they?
Pure Bullshit from the biggest Bullshitter of all time…..LWrong
I want to SCREAM when I read this! I did my first purif at 8 years old at Mace-Kinglsey. Then, later, the Mace-Kingsley Ranch was like boot camp for Scientology kids – worst place you could be sent. Glad to hear that closed down several years ago! I am LIVID this is the promo they are sending out. LIVID.
Rough case shape, huh? Because as we all know, old Hub was in perfect shape. Case-wise, obvs…but also physically. Why wouldn’t people care what he had to “say”?
In situations where we know the backdrop, it is not at all uncommon for Hubbard’s grand pronouncements to be based on his warped interpretations of one or two persons rather than on his mythical great caseload he was allegedly working tirelessly, albeit without any evidence at all. So it stands to reason that his emissions about children probably have a lot to do with the limited contacts he had with his own children. Children whom he failed to support as soon as he got a chance to weasel out of it–no matter how rich he got in the meantime,
It’s safe to say that Ron Jr had more than his share of problems. But one need not resort to past-life mix-ups to explain those. Quentin was troubled enough to kill himself. But is his “case” really that hard to comprehend? And one does not have to wonder for too long what it will do to a child to be abducted from her own mother and taken to Cuba, so that Ron could threaten to cut her into pieces in order to extort the mother.
It is telling that all but one of Hubbard’s offspring fled the cult. According to great-grandson Jamie Dewalt, the family is embarrassed to even mention Elron’s name!
So, back to Hubbard’s warped view of children and how troubled they all are…
You know what “rough case shape” brings to mind? Another case where the parallels between Hubbard and Trump are uncanny. Both of them speak in vague terms that can mean anything or nothing. Not only is “case shape” a fantasy construct of the human condition, but “rough” is an adjective that is just more meaninglessness on top of it. I know what a rough road is. I know what rough skin is. But “rough case shape” is about as meaningful as “purple door pith.”
Compare this to Trump saying things like, “We are going to be in a different world,” or, “Look, I’m just saying very simply we have a country that I’ve never seen anything like it.” They are peas in the gibber pod.
Out of respect for Mike’s wishes, I will NOT say anything that may be construed as a “this candidate vs. that candidate” rebuttal. However, frankly I find these LRH/DM comparisons to ANY candidate lame, meaningless and any bit of that “vague” that you claim to oppose.
Isn’t the media doing enough Trump bashing already? The problem with bashing is that while you’re busy venting your cheap shots at one side, you’re turning your back on the other. Meanwhile, that other side is blissfully robbing you blind.
Well, after saying you werent going to do that, you went ahead and did it anyway. Not going to post any responses to this so don’t bother any anti-Trump people. For the record, I think both are unworthy to be President. As to which one I consider less worthy, I will not comment here.
T.J. for President! 🙂
Yes, this is such utter bullshit. Also the theory of that older you become, more Engramms are restimulated, more ill you are and more aberatted you are. my experience is that older People are, wiser they are.
Only on Hubbard this principle seemed to function..
Where did that come from? Is it a PAB or in response to something specific? A transcript maybe?
I’m certainly not condoning the dribble it is, because the one thing certain about Scientologists is that they are all “Ron Determined” not matter how much Miscavige interjects his own version of things into the fray and is their commander in chief.
I was forced to audit a number of kids in the Org in my time with them. And to be frank, it’s a bloody waste of time because it wasn’t the kids that had the problem, it was the parents or the teachers from that Athena Scio school or whatever it is called. They interjected their own sense of morality, which was pretty fucked up anyway onto children.
I really detest how supposed adults splatter and force feed Scientology into kids. It literally deprives them of life itself. Heavens sake, give some guidance and keep ’em safe yes, but to make them wrong because they have imaginations etc is just about as evil as you can get. It sickened me to see the level of “ethics amends” etc forced onto kids who weren’t even teenagers yet.
This is one aspect of that group that really suxs beyond the criminality they engage in. I don’t agree with Hubbard on any aspect of this viewpoint that children are hard cases, “why audit them” is the sec check question I’d like to run on those cretins.
Oh a ’75 HCOB! Still suxs!
The source of the quote is given at the bottom of the promo
Cheers. Sort of skipped the very end, sordid subjects tend to do that to me.
Just a friendly reminder…it is not our job or responsibility to justify or explain what Hubbard meant by these statements; to somehow “make it fit” with our personal observations or experience.
That onus is on the author.
The biggest mistake anyone can make is assuming what he said is true or rooted in reality.
LRH also said, “feed them or put them to bed” about children who were cranky. He said to first check if they are tired or hungry. I raised my kids on that stable datum and it worked 95 percent of the time (or more).
Cindy, my grandma also said that. YEARS before El Con. Statpush said, “The biggest mistake anyone can make is assuming …”.
Because, you didn’t know if it was crap he just made up or, wisdom he purloined from a person who actually knew what they were talking about. The crap to food ratio ran about 90/10
Same here, Cindy, though I don’t recall getting that from LRH. But, hey, it works.
Certainly my role as a parent was influenced by my involvement in Scn. I saw my role as one who: provided basic necessities, created a safe, secure environment, taught them manners and social graces, help them win at whatever activity they pursued, allowed them to make mistakes, turned them on to some really great music 🙂
None of what I consider the basics of parenting were based on Scn “datums”.
You sound like a good dad, Statpush. And to Mike W, I don’t care who was the original author of “feed them or put them to bed.” All I know is it worked. I also used good communication, 2 Way Comm, and ARC with my kids. That worked too. What I didn’t use was heavy ethics on them. We had a fantastic relationship of mutual love and respect. All that was destroyed when the SO was recruiting both of them for SO and found out I was UTR. Then their main purpose became to 3rd Party me and Black PR me to my own kids so that the ultimate win for the church was achieved: they disconnected and one out of the two joined SO and the other joined staff and both gave their mom the old heave ho.
Cindy, you have made it abundantly clear over MANY posts that you don’t care about truth. To the point of lying as to what policies El Con wrote.
I was pointing it out for others. Not for the terminally deluded.
Mike, you are lying yourself when you accuse me of “not caring about the truth.” Cease and desist your attacks. If you had correctly understood my post you would have read that I personally don’t care if LRH wrote the thing about feed the kids or put them to bed because it is usually that they are tired or hungry. LRH said he wrote it and you said he didn’t and that others did. I don’t care who wrote it! That was my point. And my other point was that I tried it and it worked for me and my kids. That was the simplicity of my post. Don’t go making a federal case out of it and please lighten up! And stop the ad hom of calling me “terminally deluded.”
Mike Rinder, As the moderator, how do you feel about name calling and Ad Hominem attacks like the one Mike Wynski just did and does quite frequently here? I would hope the moderator would not allow such denigration of others on this site. Why can’t we show little respect for each other and grant a little beingness here? Oops, now I’ll get torn limb from limb for using a Scn term, “granting of beingness.” My bad.
+1
Well said, Cindy.
Hey Wynski, the same could be said of you, that you don’t care about any inconvenient truths that came from LRH.
We all get it that you hate Scientology and LRH and have been terribly victimized. So sorry about that, but not all of us had your experience.
I’m an ex-Catholic, but I don’t spend time haunting Catholic blogs and telling the posters how deluded they are.
The road of life beckons with many adventures. Maybe you should try moving on down that road?
Lordy, I understand that it upsets you that your criminal pal El Con is being exposed for what he was and did. I’m sorry for you being still in his power.
Lordburg, Well said! You don’t sound like you’re under anyone’s power but your own and you wield it well. Live long and prosper! Nanoo nanoo! And all that other good stuff.
Mike Wynski, Cindy has already clarified twice that whosoever was the actual source of the “feed them and put them to bed” datum or concept, whether it was LRH or someone else, is not important to her, is no issue for her, and that the issue for her was that it worked when applied in her own child raising. I think you should re-read what she wrote and then apologize to her for being nasty. You were quite unecessarily nasty, you know.
I feel bad for the children LRH “found”. I wonder how abused they were to be “nervous, griefy, blah blah blah”. I find the YUGE majority of children that I am around to be the Best. Company. Ever. I generally prefer to surround myself with children because they are more creative and outgoing, happier, more compassionate, kinder and less judgmental than adults. The children LRH was around should be referred to counseling. Immediately. Anything but scientology. They have been abused and need to be treated. The fact that he said that speaks volumes about how his children were treated IMHO.
Haha @ YUGE…. also, I think you’re right.\
Yeah, all the Fatman had to deal with were SO kids. And I’m sure the poor kids *were* in “rough” case shape, with all the bullshit they had to put up with not to mention the loss of their childhood.
OMG , this makes my blood boil ! That the “experts” in education would chose that quote is a terrible thing. I work with children one on one and learn more from them than I can say . They are pure joy , they are wise , they know their way around the fixed ideas of adults , they cry when they should or when they think they should and laugh plenty. they make me very happy and a better person.
LRH had a huge problem and he missed out on a very basic side of life.
From where I am sitting it sounds like, “Children are MUCH harder to brainwash and therefore take up too much of our valuable time. So, if you want to involve your children in Scientology, please make sure they are IMPRESSIONABLE and smart enough to understand the BIG words”. Did I miss the mark??
My apologies for going completely off topic this morning, but I have an important news flash concerning ashtrays.
The purpose of the drill in which one shouts “Stand up!” to an ashtray is not to rehabilitate psychokinetic powers. It’s to enlighten the student on the difference between force and intention. The ashtray never levitates, but by trying to get it to respond the student learns that intention can be directed without the use of force. That’s very useful in many types of human interaction.
Here’s a real life example. While in a cafeteria line one rainy day I put down my umbrella, forgot it, and left it behind as I walked to my table. A few minutes later I realized what I’d done, and went back to retrieve it, but it wasn’t there. I looked around and saw it at another table with 3 criminal-appearing young men, each one of which was bigger than me. I walked over, explained what had happened, and asked for my umbrella. The biggest of the 3 said it was his umbrella, so I could go f__ myself. I calmly and politely said, “Give me my umbrella,” and he again said it was his. We repeated this interchange for the next several minutes, with the 3 of them acting more and more threatening, while I restated that simple command, with increasing intention but without any force at all. Finally they gave up and handed me the umbrella. I thanked them and returned to my lunch. They went out into the rain with no umbrella.
So, dear critics, you now understand the ashtray drill and have no further need to ridicule it.
Agreed. Not sure where the idea that the goal was to defy the laws of physics. But, as you point out, it appears to be taken that way.
Sorry but I laughed out loud when I read your off Topic comment.
Daily People are handling bullies without knowing about Ton 40…
My daughter as a 17 years old, could handle big men with her presence alone, she was working in security and was teached how to handle bullies (with respect, kindness, reason and being firm). Wogs also know how to handle bullies and have the tech for it and they don’t Need to shout at ashtrays and learn to control bodies and being superior to those bodies….
You seem to have good obnosis that you knew they were criminals…..
I would recommend to you to not judge People at a short glance but to have compassion for any human being, how ever he Looks like…And this is not thaught by shouting at ahstrays….
My comment was only about the purpose of the drill. It’s one way to strengthen intention, but there are others. Nor did I say it’s aimed at handling bullies. Intention has many applications. I made the comment because I got tired of reading ridicule of the drill from people who don’t understand it.
2 Cents,
And if you want to practice magic you must be EVERY competent with intention. As Crowley defined it: “Every intentional act is a magical act.”
For anyone who had not figured out that you don’t need to yell in order to assert yourself and to clearly communicate your intent, then that drill might indeed be helpful. But as Roger mentions, that’s a skill set that you can learn either by osmosis or through direct instruction almost anywhere in the wog world, so it’s hardly special.
$cn does make some very special and unique claims about intention, though. The super power abilities that are claimed to be routinely achieved at the upper levels of processing include the very grandiose “Ability to be at cause over matter, energy, space and time”. Unfortunately for $cn’s credibility, no one has ever been able to demonstrate even the simplest examples of telepathy or telekinesis, despite attesting to having achieved them. $
The goal of the $cn TR drill involving yelling at ashtrays is not to get them to rise magically through your Tone 40 intent alone, but the ability that’s supposedly gained on the OaTy levels is to be able to cause things to happen merely through your intent. Perhaps someone, someday, will actually achieve the ability, say, to scoot a gum wrapper along a flat surface for a couple of inches, using only their focused intent. But since even that trivial demonstration of super power ability has never been documented throughout the entire history of $cn, it’s very unlikely that it ever will.
You have a common misunderstanding about the OT levels. “Cause over matter, energy, space, time, etc.” was listed on the late 1960’s grade chart as the “ability gained” on Original OT 8. But that level was never released and probably never even developed by LRH.
It was also preceded by Original OT 4-5-6-7, which were withdrawn in 1982 and replaced by NOTS as New OT 4-5-6-7. NOTS was previously a rundown that could be thought of as “deeper OT 3” and was done before Original OT 4-5-6-7. New OT 8 is entirely different from Original OT 8, and is in no way a substitute for it.
The full upper grade chart would therefore be something like OT 1-3, then New OT 4-5-6-7, then Original OT 4-5-6-7, then Original OT 8 when it is developed.
There has never been an OT level actually delivered in either the Church or the Independent field that was intended to deliver “cause over matter, energy, space, and time.” That result is theoretical only — something for research and development to shoot for.
I haven’t been in direct contact with $cn for decades, but when I was and the old grade chart that you mentioned was prominently posted everywhere, everyone that I knew had exactly that interpretation of the abilities that were being claimed at that level.
But leave all that confusion about new and old OT levels aside for now and just consider the very specific claims that were purported to be achieved by all who went Clear…perfect recall, immunity to disease, etc. I knew quite a few clears back in the day and not a single one achieved the promised abilities, including myself.
By any objective measure, $cn just doesn’t deliver what it promises and never has. If it did, people would be busting down the doors to achieve its very miraculous promised results.
Harpoona, as I said, Origina OT 8 was never released, and the OT levels that were released made no claims to producing super powers.
Re Clear, Ron did make absolutist claims in 1950 that didn’t pan out. Then he spent the next 15 years working on why that occured, and developing auditing procedures that were more effective. Based on that research he redefined Clear in the mid-60’s (see the late 60’s grade chart) to something in some ways less, and in some ways greater, than the 1950 definition.
I agree that probably no one has ever achieved 1950 Clear. But thousands of people have reached late-60’s Clear, which is terrific in its own right. The test of auditing is not whether or not it makes supermen, but whether or not it helps people get case gain they consider worthwhile.
You are right, though, that there was a lot of belief that if we kept following Ron he’d someday issue tech that WOULD make supermen.
That view, My Two Cents would have had you drawn and quartered by the old man.
That was never clarified by Ron. The reason that “a lot of people have an MU on the OT levels, as you say, is because it was implied as a fact that the OT levels would produce exterior with full perception: BY EVERYONE!
My friends and I, and even Scientology acquaintances, would talk about what we could actually do when we went OT.
The MU you talk about was a universal understanding by everyone I knew.
I believe that Ron let us rest in that fake knowledge because it is what motivated all of us:
Flying around the universe, exterior, with full perception and able to create anything by thought.
That was the cheese my friend. That was not an MU. That is what we were sold as what we would experience.
To think otherwise is to be cognitive of a Scientology that you have developed. A Scientology whereby you have engaged your reasoning skills. It is not the Scientology I experienced. I was in for 11 years.
Was in the Sea Org
Was a Flag Missionare at FOLOEUS
We all thought we were going to be superman. That was the cheese. That was the end game, the “enlightenment” of Scientology.
Ron said in the early 70s that the bridge was complete. All you had to do was put your feet on the bridge.
Something I have observed about those who still hold Ron in high esteem, is that they very subtly change the meaning of Ron’s words to suit their benevolent view of the tech and Ron.
Marildi does this also. You can send her to Ron’s writing to help her see but somehow Ron’s written words are now up for interpretation.
Marty did that with OT 3 when he was being questioned on air.
He said that OT 3 was a metaphor or analogy, or something like that.
I believe those who still consider themselves Scientologists, change the meaning of Ron’s words, that we ALL KNOW, so that the foolishness of Ron’s writings are justified by the believer to seem reasonable when talking to those outside of the thought bubble.
Remember:
Running BTs led Ron to wish for suicide by electroshock.
And My Two Cents, when I brought that up a few posts ago, you did what I just described:
You said(paraphrase) something about the wavelength of electricity knocking out BTs and that somehow Ron was above the body and wanted to free BTs.
My Two Cents…………………
HE WAS TRYING TO COMMIT SUICIDE BY ELECTROSHOCK
But you see, you have altered the situation to match your image of Ron. Because the truth is too painful. That is my view.
To actually consider, that Ron was not being all above body consciousness and trying to free poor stuck BTs, but mentally unstable and quite mad and hopeless………..
would invalidate running BTs and replace the wiseman Ron with the Madman Ron. That is a hard pill to swallow when you have created an image of Ron that that does not match reality.
Apologists for Ron alter Ron’s words to suite their created image of Ron.
Marildi did it regarding getting sick from OT 3 and you have done it regarding Ron wishing for body death.
And by saying that we all, or some, have an MU regarding the OT levels. We do not have an MU.
We all knew what it was being sold to us. It was no MU.
On the contrary. It was the attainment promised by Ron by getting on the bridge. You may be the one to have the MU.
Everyone that I knew thought that OT8 was the Buddha/God level.
And that everyone up to OT7 could go exterior at will.
You cannot undo historical fact by calling it an MU.
Brian, I have said many times on this blog that in my opinion there is both good and bad in everyone and everything. That includes LRH, what he said, and what he did. It’s obvious to me that he developed a lot of very useful tech, but that he didn’t finish the job.
Original OT 5 and 6 drilled certain “OT powers,” and I saw a few anecdotal demonstrations of them. But they were not stable, which is the reason LRH developed a lot of additional tech after 1970. But the real “Buddha/God” level was Original OT 8, which was never released and possibly never developed past the vague theory stage.
If you and your friends thought stable OT powers were going to be restored by the lower OT levels, that was dub-in group think on your part. In all fairness to you, it’s likely that this dub-in was erroneously promoted by other Sea Org members you granted altitude to. And LRH always over-hyped his results to keep his followers motivated.
But here we are decades later. My purpose is, as I’ve said before, to throw out the bad in Scientology, and preserve and build on the good. Yours seems to be to prove that it was all bad. And you seem emotionally stuck on that.
My advice to you would be to get some clean-up auditing in the Independent field.
“It’s obvious to me that he developed a lot of very useful tech, but that he didn’t finish the job.”
His last OT level research was asking Sarge to create an meter to kill himself. That is the zenith of his research.
And I totally disagree with you on your rational view of the OT levels.
We all thought we would get these states. You are right. Those states can’t be had.
But they were promoted to be attained. We must have both experienced two different Scientologies.
My Two cents says, “Can’t be had” …….from Scientology Freudian Therapy my friend.
Tell me My Two Cents, would you learn guitar from someone who did not know how to play?
Would you learn child rearing from a child abuser?
Would you get marriage counseling from someone divorced 6 times?
So why do you think you can learn the theory, proceedures and practices of life, attaining the goal of total causation, of total freedom from a man who was running OT3/BT processes and wishing suicide?
I can resolve my argument against Ron and Scientology to that one solitary simplicity;
You are searching for spiritual freedom from a man who was not free. And not just not free, but severely aberated. Anyone wishing suicide as an option is not right in the mind.
Tell me, where is body death on the tone scale?
Where is hiding on the tone scale?
These were Ron’s characteristics.
Fancying that you can derive the wisdom of life from a man who considered suicide as an answer to his pain and suffering is the most outrageous and delusional idea I can think of.
I am simply being logical and reasonable. This is not an emotional Ron bashing sentiment.
If you want to know about true OTs and OT powers and the procedure of liberation; read Autobiography.
I give a rats ass if you become a student of his. I truly do not care. But the information about how to become free and liberated can only come from those who found these things.
Why stay with a teacher who has not attained the state of being you are looking for.
It does not make sense. Somewhere within you I know you get what I mean.
How can you not????
Brian, once again as you have for years, you reject logic when it doesn’t support your charge-driven viewpoint.
LRH was 74 years old when he died. That’s actually pretty long-lived for an overweight heavy smoker. In the months leading up to his death he was physically ill, and knew his body was going to die soon no matter what he did.
The purpose of the electric-shock e-meter was not for him to escape living, which was going to happen soon anyway. Nor was it to magnanimously liberate some stubborn BTs. It was to blow off those BTs regardless of what that did to his body, which was used up anyway. If he wanted to commit suicide he could have much more easily and pleasantly used some kind of drug overdose.
And the reason he was having a case problem with those BTs was that he did his OT research on himself, and given that it was venturing into unconquered territory it was far riskier than the all-nicely-packaged OT levels released to the public after he’d found what worked on him.
Ever do any mountain climbing? The lower slopes are generally easy, and then the way gets harder as you go higher. LRH running into trouble pioneering a route high up on the mountain is not evidence that his tech didn’t work at lower levels.
Now, I personally believe certain changes in the grade chart would be helpful, so I’m not some glassy-eyed Ronbot. But I’m tired of reading the same “Ron’s suicide proves the tech is of no value” bullshit you just keep spewing over and over and over, especially since you have no credibility to do so.
You presume to have a worthwhile opinion on the OT levels despite the fact that by your own statement you never finished your lower grades and then tried to skip ahead and run OT 3 on yourself in that totally unprepared state.
Your 11 years in Scientology were while you were also spending 40 years as a Yogananda follower. Did you stop doing kriya yoga while on auditing, or did you mix practices? Knowing what kriya yoga and OT 3 are, the idea of mixing them is one of the stupidest actions I could imagine someone attempting.
I believe you are a sincere seeker, but you repeatedly demonstrate misunderstanding and misuse of Scientology, as well as bypassed charge on your experience with it. The truth is that while there actually is a lot wrong with what Scientology became, your criticisms have not accurately identified what that is or what can be done about it, and you yourself have no credibility as an analyst of it.
Excellent observation.
New OT VIII had already been released when LRH was still playing around with some BTs. Not all done with NOTs after 8. No wonder the COBster is currently sending OT VIII comps back on the Solo NOTs auditor course for refreshers for the release of OT IX.
Brian: I agree with you. The bottom line is that LRH didn’t deliver what he promised. To me, “interpreting” Grade Chart EP’s is little more than rationalization. I know what “Cause over matter, energy, space, and time” means. I don’t have MU’s either. Nor do I feel the need to search historical records to make sense of the meaning. As for that ashtray, it either rises up off that chair or doesn’t and if LRH didn’t really mean that it should, he should have created something else to “improve intention.” I’m tired of feeling not-so-bright for not understanding what he wrote. It either makes sense or it doesn’t. We shouldn’t need degrees from MIT to understand what he meant.
One is Clear per DMSMH. Or not. One is exterior with full perceptics. Or not. One is cause over life. Or not. One is OT–just like what’s promised on the Grade Chart. Or he isn’t. The words are simple. They mean what they mean. Period.
Yes Terra, well put. Thank you for chiming in.
Giving the excuse that Ron was an old man and that’s why he was looney is a revelation of being effect of life not cause.
Yet his techniques will make you free; delusion
And justifying Ron’s suicide wish is evidence of brain washing.
It is simply outrageous My Two Cents, that you state with certainty, your knowledge of why Ron wished suicide; a crock.
Your justification of his wish for suicide is possibly the end of rational discussion and once again evidence of the dangers of Scientology.
And that could be the value in this thread.
OT3/BT processes and theory can distort reason and common sense
You have proved it My Two Cents.
The OT levels are not good for mental health.
My two cents, my trust in your reasoning skills has come to an end.
Scientology doctrines are training for sophistry;
Plausible but fallacious argumentation.
And worse; brain washing and being certain of wrong knowledge as truth.
Last thought:
The why to Scientology’s troubles is not lack of or incomplete research.
The why is Ron’s mental health.
The why is Ron himself. Very simple.
Terra, I’m sorry you had trouble understanding Scientology. But the situation IS that you didn’t understand it.
How many times do you have to be told that “cause over matter, energy, space, and time” was the ability gained for Original OT 8 that was never released?
How many times do you have to be told that the ashtray drill wasn’t to bring about the ability to levitate objects, but rather to differentiate intention from words and force?
“Cause over life” was quite adequately explained by several commenters, but apparently you didn’t get it.
Meanwhile you whine about LRH not having a magic wand after all, despite his providing us with many non-magical tools that work just fine in the hands of people who actually understand them and have good intentions.
My observations too.
M2C: Interestingly, I understand Scientology more now than I ever did when i was in. Now, I don’t feel the need to beat myself over the head in trying to make sense of things that never did. And I don’t need others to “adequately” explain what Ron really meant, either. EPs shouldn’t need to be explained. They should be evidently clear.
I never believed he had a magic wand. In fact, I too believe he wrote lots of good and useful stuff–especially, on the lower half of the Bridge, below the OT levels. Much of the good he wrote, has been perverted and subjugated by a suppressive regime.
I still have a Tone Scale hanging on my wall. I still use lots of his nomenclature in everyday life. And despite him not always following his own advice, I still follow and use many of his policies. Just because DM and his minions have used them for purposes other than good doesn’t mean I have to. I still own the Basics and many of my course packs.
I think it’s great you’ve pulled and apply tech that you like and find useful. Those within the Church should be so free. Maybe someday, you’ll climb those “higher slopes” and work out what LRH couldn’t.
You talk about “misusing” Scientology. Has it ever been used correctly, though? And if not, why? What is in the tech and policy that’s prevented its expansion? I would think if the tech was in fact perfect, someone by now would have applied it and reached those lofty goals laid out by LRH. Don’t you think someone would have achieved the “ability gained for Original OT” if such tech actually existed and worked?
Terra, thanks for the positive tone of your response. I’m glad to learn that you see both good and bad in Scientology. However, I think you’ve made a mistake in giving up trying to understand certain things. Almost every one of your articles has contained some misunderstanding or non-understanding of Scientology. I think you’d benefit from clearing them up. And so would your readers.
Two Cents: Terra Cognita does not whine. Also Terra Cognita’s articles have brought a lot more understanding to many of us.
Brian, you don’t reason in your comments. You just throw out one fixed opinion after another, several in each comment so none of them ever get discussed fully. When confronted with rational opposition, you just re-assert your fixed opinion and accuse anyone who disagrees of being brainwashed, or you don’t answer at all.
My observations too.
And you my friend are stuck in seeing the world and its inhabitants through the limited and arrogant filter of your training.
A few blogs ago I gave the view that the highly trained Scientologist is a thing of pity.
I feel sorry for them.
So much of Ron’s mind imprinted and study teched into the cognitive faculties.
So many reasons and doctrines in which to evaluate and judge other people.
There is an arrogance of “I know” and you don’t in the highly trained Scientologist. It is so recognizable. You have that My Two Cents.
It’s your BPC
It’s your ARCx
It’s your overts
It’s your unhandled bladeebla
It’s your needing the next tech fix
You’re out valence
You’re affected by BTs
You’re affected by implants
Missing bridge step
Wrong bridge step
Unfinished grades
An MU
Druggie BTs
Scientologists are trained to evaluate human beings. And evaluate they do. It’s a kind of self induced madness that comes from being highly trained in Ron’s Feudian Therapy.
The simplicity of moments and people are stuffed into an over worked mind that concluded on all sorts of delusional complexities.
When in the church, you had altitude. You had people looking up to you.
Out here in Woglandia it’s my opinion that all those years of training have messed with your reasoning skills.
I have only judged Ron and the tech in my criticism.
You judge people for not seeing how you see. Or seeing how you think Ron and Scientology should be seen.
It’s possible that the projection of faults you see in others for judging Scientology is actually your limitations being projected on other people.
Your need to chop off the heads of others to feel elevated.
You think I need a repair session.
And I think you may need therapy.
It may take years to get what I am talking about.
Having an unstable man’s mind imprinted into yours is a hard thing to unravel.
You have justified and made up stories to suite your bias about Ron regarding suicide.
I see that view as being brainwashed. I see it as a sad, a very sad and desperate state.
Your Ron mind filters distort the simplicity of life and people.
You may think about this later on. When you start questioning some of the Ron imprints in your cognitive faculties.
But for now, you will fit me into one of your well studied, word cleared categories that stuffs people into little mind boxes for judgement and evaluation.
So neat and tidy and so 100% standard. So Scientology like.
I wish you well my two cents. I hope you find the happiness you are looking for.
May your bubble pop to see the clear and simple space unencombered by wrong knowledge of life and people that was study teched into your mind.
Most of what you’ve just accused me of, you’re guilty of yourself. You’re just promoting Yogananda rather than Scientology.
And you just have to be right, which is not surprising given that you never got through Grade 4 in your auditing.
I’m not upset with you, and I wish you well. But we’re not getting anywhere, so I’m done with our conversation.
Funny story, once I was in a McDonalds, and a man left his bag behind. Before getting to the door, he realized his mistake, and went to retrieve it. It wasn’t there. He saw it sitting on a table where 3 senior citizens were having tea. He went up and politely but firmly and said “That is my bag, please give it to me.”. The 3 senior citizens beat him with his own bag, and walked out whistling.
This is not true.
If at first you don’t succeed, try try again. I’ve always said the secret to effective intention is repetition!
It could be suggested both Scientologists & non/ex-Scientologists alike only believe what they want to believe or have it align with their agendas or think.
For example the opinion (or solid fact for some) that is often shouted from the roof tops is that if you read the OT3 materials you will catch pneuomina or some such horrible malady and die. Hence it all bs because that’s what Hubbard said and it didn’t kill me. No, he didn’t say that at all. He wrote that if you tried to solve it, that’s what will happen. Big difference between reading about something and solving it. ISIS is a problem but reading about it won’t get you shot by a jihad enthusiast but going over to Syria and trying to solve it there more than likely will. I’m not saying there’s any validity in OT3 or anything in Scientology, just that it’s grossly misunderstood or inapplicable if you never understood what was written in the first place or worse, have an agenda against it for other reasons. Or in the case of the Cof$, let’s steal money and to hell with anyone or anything that wants what’s promised.
Bogart never said, “play it again Sam.” But life is like that, people are people do what people do but there is a lot of truth to, “stupid is what stupid does.”
The difference between Intention and force, don’t let that get in way of making it all wrong, got to have a bandwagon to jump onto sometimes I suppose.
Well said, I Yawnalot.
As for what you wrote about the bandwagon idea (i.e. the group agreement) that “if you read the OT3 materials you will catch pneuomina or some such horrible malady and die,” I hope you are more successful than I have been in making the point that this isn’t what Hubbard said – it’s more like propaganda that is repeated so often that it becomes “true.”
As you say, this (as well as other data about the tech and philosophy) is going to be “grossly misunderstood or inapplicable if you never understood what was written in the first place or worse, have an agenda against it for other reasons.”
Those who do not have an agenda should realize that with regard to readers or lurkers who actually understand scientology (by scientology, I don’t mean the church), putting out false data will only discredit all the actual facts concerning the way the CoS operates. And that would defeat the main purpose of this blog. Mike’s blog post today is a good example of sticking to facts including using an actual quote.
Well, I found one of the quotes from the Class 8 tape for you one time before. Not going to bother again. There are even more quotes that I did not include.
Yes, Mike, but I believe we had different interpretations of that tape quote.
Anyway, Mike, you did have a reference, which meant everyone reading that thread could come to their own conclusion. That was fair enough.
Exactly! That – to me – is the value of not being in a cult. Having freedom to express views(1) without being required to agree.
(1) No, our host reserving the right to weed out comments for reasons of his own choosing does not mean that this is the store-front for a cult 😉
Well said, Jens.
I think Mike was trying to help you understand Marildi.
It is my experience of you, that you cannot tolerate having Ron’s image, the one that you have created, tainted by reason and truth.
It is why you have issues with me. Your sacred cow is constantly being poked by others seeing Ron as he is. I am a happy Ron poker.
It’s your anger, passive aggressiveness that confesses a need to have Ron on a pedestal.
A need to believe in Ron.
That is why you have taken Mike’s references as “a point of view.”
When I was in, it was universally understood that you would get sick; by everyone!
It is your view which is the arbitrary, the subjective point of view.
Somehow you need to protect Ron’s reputation for some reason.
That’s a hard chosen road my dear. Good luck with that.
That being said; HERE’S A BIG HUG AND KISS!!
MMMMWWWAAAHHH!!
Brian,
I will give you the same wise advice John Doe’s mother gave him:
“I’m telling you to stop because it’s not good for you.”
(See his comment here: https://www.mikerindersblog.org/thursday-funnies-107/#comment-148855 )
MMMMWWWAAAHHH!!
Elron’s cited reason for trying to keep the OT3 materials confidential was that they could physically harm folks who were not prepared to encounter them. But when they were eventually made public quite a few years ago there is no one that I’m aware of who experienced any physical harm from encountering them, so either his understanding there was incorrect, or no one tried to run them. In either case, there was nothing to suggest that that Elron’s stated reason for wanting them to remain confidential was valid.
So, if that is indeed the case and the materials pose no threat of harm to anyone who might encounter them, then why doesn’t the cherch just come to present time and openly discuss this central tenet of the faith, along with the related belief in BT’s? The cat’s now very far out of the bag, so continuing to try and maintain that there’s some valid reason for continuing to not talk about them just seems deceptive to me. Folks who are just being introduced to any religious faith have every right to know what the central articles of faith within that religion are, especially if it’s a religion that charges hundreds of thousands of dollars to participate in it rituals and ceremonies.
Harpoona, according to El Con one had to only be TOLD about the OT 3 incident to become Very Sick. Ref: RJ-67 This was said unambiguously and is NOT arguable by those who are sane AND listened to that tape.
As there is not a SINGLE documented case of a person becoming ill from reading or being told the data; it can be logically determined that El Con lied about this (the same as he lied about breaking his back while researching 3) in order to keep it under wraps until such a time as a person was conditioned/hypnotized/brainwashed enough to buy the clearly bullshit story.
Indeed Harpoona, since Hubbard’s fears of premature exposure to the most restimulating event in history next to a Madonna concert have blessedly proved overly cautious, it does seem deceptive for the church to continue the motions of protecting us.
I have a radical theory the church is actually EMBARRASSED by the revelations and doesn’t want to talk about it. I also have a radical theory the church maintained the allure of forbidden knowledge around the materials for purposes lucrative. Per my theory, the ‘mystical appeal’ strategy was the only way to get people to fork over the enormous sums because the touted transformative effects, being invisible to the naked eye, cannot themselves generate any interest.
There are references that specifically talk about freeloading and pneumonia, and they do not refer to merely reading or (to quote you) “encountering” the OT 3 incident but about being “forced to run” it. I quoted the references on a previous thread.
Hmm, I’ve never seen a reference about pneumonia and not pulling ones weight. where is that ref?
RJ-67 is explicit. If you are new to scamology (which you lack on general knowledge suggests) and don’t understand the tape, you should listen to it until you do.
Yawn said, “No, he didn’t say that at all. He wrote that if you tried to solve it, that’s what will happen. Big difference between reading about something and solving it. ”
Incorrect. Ron said that if the incident (OT 3) was even verbally described to a person (nothing about solving anything) they could get very sick.
Excellent observation.
Didn’t exactly work for Catherine Fraser when she repeatedly demanded that Louis Theroux stop filming her.
Perhaps she thinks it did as he must have stopped eventually!
You missed something, 2cents. The drill is also designed to get the student to see that the words themselves, with or without force, are different from the intention.
I gave up a long time ago trying to explain to some folks that TRs are simply useful drills to enhance one’s ability to handle situations in life with communication. I’ve put hundreds of people through TR courses and never had anyone go hypnotic on me. However, the way they are drilled in the Co$ they are most certainly being used to make students robotic.
You’re right, Les. Thank you.
Yes, 2 Cents that was the stated intention about yelling at the ashtray.
But, as there was no difference in outcome it really didn’t teach any real difference between yelling and not yelling. One had to turn to real life to see that in most cases, yelling produced more of a result than talking softly or, just non-verbally intending (another ash tray drill)
Another El Con Tubbolard training failure.
Wynski, you should be careful in your unrelenting attacks. You might become what you resist.
Meanwhile, as you know, the ashtray drill is part of a series of extroverting communication and control drills that do work to help people become stronger in their dealings with things and people as opposed to just ideas.
Definite BS. Take a walk around your local mall or fun event, where you’ll find the happiest, brightest, most “exterior” beings are the kids.
He must have been talking about the children of staff members, who are usually neglected by their parents.
the criminal organisation known as the “church” of $cientology knows it’s treating the children of its most dedicated members all wrong.
Check out the parts of Jenna Miscavige’s very excellent “Beyond Belief” about how the children in the cadet bOrg she was in being ordered to put on a show for their own parents to mimic being happy.
So, it’s not like the Co$ itself feels that its treatment of children can be defended – even internally…
I know, Jens. I left when my kids were little because I didn’t want that life for them. They have no bad memories from that time. My oldest was 4.5 and youngest just 3. Their memories are mostly of playing with other staff kids.
Lron was an ass and his heirs are asses too. I really doubt that most public $cienoes raise their children like Lron did. At least I hope not.
Ok, the Duggans can farm out their kids to South Africa but who else does that? Ok, Tom Cruise can send a niece away because she kissed a boy, but who else would do that? Oh, the Sea bOrg used to do that with their children in the ‘childrens mOrg’. The Mace Kingsley people need to watch Pink Floyds ‘The Wall’.
Ok, clams are really messed up. Only their children are more so, and so on and so forth….
“Ron says…hey! I made it all up! There was no 30 years of research. You won’t get a thing out of it! It’s all just make believe! And I died just like a normal person would….
Ahh you see… that’s where he got you. Normal people don’t die, they go to happy hunting ground in sky.
They don’t go to Target 2? When this body quits, I was planning on going there for a long vacation. Bummer…
Target 2 is only for Scios. Pre-booking is essential plus a sizable deposit required. If you slip me a couple of bucks I can put in a good word in for you. Still got that Groucho Marks outfit you used to get by Aussie customs?
I rarely use swear words to keep things Classy. Modest. Humble.
When I make an exception it is sincere and heartfelt.
L. Ron Hubbard is/was an A$$HOLE and intended to hurt our children. He MEANT to do it.
I regret having applied any of his BS to my kids or other family’s kids.
I count on KARMA to get this all balanced out.
+1! You’re right on the money, TOOT! However, my post would have been unprintable.
And even more frightening that this comes from Mace-Kingsley.
Is it any wonder that Katie Holmes bolted when she had the chance?
Katie Holmes was the smartest gal in the room…..
Mabe his children.
“I find children in very rough case shape, nervous, frightened, griefy, etc.” He wrote this in 1975 and from my personal observation only one of his children (Quinton) fit this description at the time. Diana, Suzette and Arthur were very extroverted and happy. The only other “children” he was around were his “messengers” and David Miscavige was one. And that boy definitely fit the “case shape” Hubbard wrote about. But more important is the question of what exactly served as his basis for his conclusion? He’d been hiding from public for decades surrounded only by his own staff. So what could his conclusion actually be based on?
Miscavige had not met Hubbard when this was written.
Quentin was a delightful guy. His real problem was that he was never allowed to do what he dreamt of…FLYING. That was his dream, never permitted. He was a terrific auditor and when I was with him, smiled a laughed a lot. He was one of the great ones, in my book.
Suzette was a screwball, but a delightful one. I truly wish her well outside the circus. Never met Arthur, but my wife thought a lot of him. The only time I met Diana was when she was on some public event thing. VERY cold, but she may well have been exhausted for her extended travels.
Thanks for your comment. Always nice to hear about things like that. So much about the “life” surrounding this subject is slanted away from actual living. People are people, and for the most part are quite real and personable.
Thank you thegman77.When my room at The Hollywood Inn was white-gloved & all my SO diaries,poems,letters from Mary Sue,SO1comm all taken away.But when all the Advance mags and AOLA packets Quentin had sent me,where he had drawn jets,prop planes all types of aviation scenes where he was the pilot saying phrases as in a comic strip.Really clever.When those were gone I cried.?
That’s absolutely terrible! No one has the right to take personal possessions like that off anyone, SO or no SO! Gee whiz, if they did that to me I would have either ended up in jail or I’d still be on the run. But someone would sure not remember what happened to them once they regained consciousness and recognized the fact they could only suck jellies and such through a straw.
At least you have the memories Ann.
Thegman said,”His real problem was that he was never allowed to do what he dreamt of…FLYING.”
I think I disagree. His dad wrote that a person like him (“Science” of Survival) who was gay, is part of a people to be “disposed of quietly and without sorrow.”
That people like his son is “worse than having a snake in your bed.”
Since LRH was in the limelight, the god of a cult, the pressure on Quinten must have been diabolical and terrible.
The male aire to Scientology was Quinten. That must have been an embarrassing situation for Ron. He must have resented Quinten immensely.
Not having the dream of flying realized does not drive a person to suicide. Having a suppressive, vengeful and rage inclined father who considers you bad for PR does. End of story.
Also, I find it difficult to call a 15 or 16 years old “a child”.
def: a young human being below the age of puberty (e.g. pre-teen)
Agree Mike. And in addition to the broad generality about children you can find the usual stroke of Hubbard: evaluative (burdened cases) and invalidative (rough cases).
But again, Mace-Kingsley may believe completely and promote widely this quote as its a way to have scientologists’ parents take their kids to her and make some bucks too.
Like FSMs, if money is pouring in from IAS rip off, sorry, donations, is good to believe and promote whatever Hubbard said about it.
Ask Miscavige, he is an expert at this.
In fact, I would not send my child to a place that says this about children.
A bit horrifying…..
Indeed. It gives one pause.
I’m a member of Mensapause…
I’ll let that one go through to the keeper.
(I wonder how many Americans will know what that means?)
Sounds like pure BS to me, probably based on experience with one or two children at most, who wouldn’t be scared being audited by l ron? He was quite creepy.
Good to meet you.I agree,I would not have wanted Ron as my auditor.There was a certain fierce glare in some of his photos,that gave me pause and I would think,I never want to piss him off,when I was in The Sea Org.?
Yep. I lived with Mace & Kingsley off and on while growing up. This definitely sums up the way that Debbie and Carol viewed children. Horrible.
Born broken
Gee, Ron. This is very different from the sunny outlook you had on children in the 50’s. Maybe by 1975 the only children you were seeing were either in the SO or had very devoted scientology parents? Could scientology have been the problem with the children you were seeing? I wonder, Ron, if by 1975 you were “seeing” any children at all, or if you were just talking out of your ass here, as usual?
Bingo!
I agree scneth, Seemed very contradictory from what he wrote in the fifties re children. But I must be mistaken, Ron would never contradict himself.
Scientologists would pay good money for the ‘Congresses’ that came out of LRH’s ass
The Hubbard Ass Lectures, 1975 HAL75
One could extrapolate from that, that the cans squeeze HCOB will need to be rewritten.
Wtf. This sweeping statement is bollocks.
Mike,
For Mace Kingsley that was a perfect quote from L Ron Tubbys play book.
They need more victims so they cause fear in the parents and they will send their kids to their robot schools.
The dogma runs deep with those ones Obi Wan.
Scientology parents usually have stunted growth themselves. They are children in big bodies. Very sad and sick.
The first paragraph…..blah blah blah……
The second paragraph…..the words…..these children speak…they say….they don’t….they get… Should be replaced with…..I speak…..I say…..I don’t…..and I get.
All about the psychosis in one persons mind. Ridiculous!!!!!
It’s easy to see that he views children as if they are aliens from another planet.
Sad…..and then complete the circle with a new book…..Look How My Family Turned Out!
I’m sure it’ll make the Amazon Bestseller list.
Holy Crap…..I didn’t know what Mace-Kinsley was when I wrote this…..I didn’t know this place existed in my backyard. Mike……don’t you think it would be like sending them to Howl-O-Scream for few overnights? The more I learn….I swear…it boggles my mind.
“nervous, frightened, griefy” – yes, when you throw then into a chain-locker as punishment I would imagine you’d see that Ron,
“Whether L. Ron Hubbard loved or hated children …”
Well, since he kidnapped his OWN baby daughter and threatened to cut her into pieces and feed her to the sharks, survey says he hated children and was criminally insane.
His criminal followers will disagree though…
Ah yes, I remember this now.
His criminal followers were ALL insane…..
Does that include the dog?
For me, the whole scenario, since it’s beginning, seems quite monstrous. Examining “Ron is the Founder”, Hubbardites are taught that this statement is some sort of acknowledgement. To me, Hubbard made it up, is a confession, of sorts. “The Reactive Mind” seems to me to be a whole lot of fiction. And believing in it, justifies quite the derogatory POV of everyone, not just children.
Considering LRH is mankind’s best friend, he had a pretty dim view of his fellow man. Nor are children spared from his pessimism. But, I suppose, if Scn is mankind’s salvation, then man has to be really fucked up; otherwise, no need for Scn.
Of course, there is no evidence to support Hubbard’s “research”; but this would not stop Scn parents from subjecting their children to processing. This must be Hubbard’s equivalent of “original sin”. Fully indoctrinated children become customers for life, using auditing to address their unholy state.
There really is no joy in the Hubbardian world. No one is spared.
Absolutely right Stats. Non one is spared and start ’em young is their business model in actuality.
You know I reckon where it all really fucked up was taking Scientology seriously. It is not a serious subject, what is deals with may be serious at times but Scientology itself should never be taken seriously. Hubbard’s two really BIG errors among quite a lot of wacky administrative directions was KSW 1 and creating the SO, imo they sit on top of the pile. And then the never ending “research” after he said, “we have now gone past uniformly workable technology.” Crap – if was the case why is that version of it gone forever from their arsenal?
You’re right the Hubbardian world spares no-one. The seriousness of all the problems of life is forced onto each and every individual in it. And what makes it really wacky is even Hubbard himself said to keep it light.
I reckon it should have all been franchised out in the 60s and let it run its own course, “make it or brake it”, the slogan, because what you have today is severely broken.
I wonder if there are children books written which debunk past lives.
I’ve seen Junior Skeptic reading.
http://www.skeptic.com/junior_skeptic/get/
http://www.skeptic.com/downloads/why-people-see-ghosts.pdf
This hits a lot of angles that I wish I’d been better child educated regarding.
Chuck, have a look at this short ABC news video about a little boy who remembered details – which have been corroborated by historical records – about his past life as a navy fighter pilot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk7biSOzr1k
This statement from the man is astounding arrogance and ignorance, imo. One wonders what his agenda was for saying such a thing. Perhaps his own children reacted so badly to him that that’s how it seemed to him. He was much of a dad from what I’ve gleaned.
What comes to mind is…changing the way adults and parents view children. And not in a good way. Once you view your child as a dramatizing little monster with a fucked up case…well, you don’t want to validate the bank do you? Those little rugrats just need to get their ethics in.
In fact, many children are in fabulous case shape. I’ve just been watching a series called, The Secret Lives of 4, 5 and 6 year olds.
In any case, I had three of my own and they were and still are in pretty good shape. Two of them have never had auditing. The one who has was in good shape beforehand, anyway.
Or maybe being subjected, er exposed, to Co$ at a young age really messes kids up?
Scientology’s Auditing of children is Scientology’s mind control tactic to trap kids into working for free as slaves and it works when standardly applied.
Scientology ruins lives and shatters dreams.
Parents don’t let their kids do Scientology!
A parallel I find with scn is the legal profession. I studied law at university and detested it, the reason being there was really no logic to the subject or understanding required (lawyers may disagree). You just learn the law by rote, pretty much like scn. I’v also met various lawyers over the years, and never found them a happy or inspiring crew.
Thank you,a comment I totally agree with.?