You trace what is wrong with this planet and you trace it straight to psychiatry.
L. Ron Hubbard
If there is one thing everyone can agree upon about scientology — ardent fans and ardent critics alike — scientology HATES psychiatry and all things psychiatric.
Why?
Hubbard originally sought the blessing of psychiatrists and the American Psychiatric Association for his theories in Dianetics. When they rejected him as a quack and Dianetics as “nothing but the bunk,” they instantly became his sworn enemies.
Overnight he shifted from seeking their approval and support to proclaiming that they were actually the enemy of mankind (for who else would reject the most important breakthrough for man since the discovery of fire?). And it got worse from there.
Soon psychiatry featured as the villains behind every “attack” leveled at scientology by anyone anywhere in the world. They became the architects behind the Third Reich and Stalin and ultimately, in Hubbard’s parlance “whole track implanters” who had been working to enslave and subjugate thetans for trillions of years.
In 1974, Hubbard proudly announced that “the last reason for psychiatry to exist is gone” because he had discovered or researched or just made up The Introspection Rundown. It was a hollow announcement as to this day his policy still forbids anyone with any sort of psychiatric history or those in a psychotic state to set foot in any scientology organization… Where are those people supposed to go if not to scientology for his cure?
It is today an article of faith for scientologists to be absolutely certain that everything about psychiatry is evil and must be destroyed. In the 90’s, David Miscavige himself announced at IAS events — to whoops and cheers and endless standing ovations — that psychiatry would variously be obliterated, eradicated and annihilated by the turn of the century.
Hubbard even wrote a secret document tracing the problems of the entire universe to a planet called Farsec that was, billions of years ago, “home base” for psychiatry. Never mind his pronouncements that this was a subject that began in Leipzig University under Wilhelm Wundt — consistency in his storytelling has never been Hubbard’s strongest suit.
I am reminded of this history because once a year, scientology makes a huge deal out of the APA Convention and their “psychbust”. So too again this year and the promotion for the big event is pouring in.
This year they are focused on ECT. ECT is not a concept I find appealing in any way, it seems barbaric to me, but I also admit I am not truly educated on it. But what I find interesting is how close they seem to be coming to describing themselves and the use of the E-meter with their statements about an “electrical pulse device,” “no scientific proof” and an “alternative to drugs”…
Yet here is the real rub.
Scientology is NOT violently opposed to chiropractors who use electro-stimulation or electro-pulse machines like these that you can buy on Amazon?
Why not?
Simple. L. Ron Hubbard never offered Dianetics to the chiropractors, so they escaped his scorn. Consequently scientologists don’t see chiropractic electro-stimulation devices as the tools of the devil as they do anything in the hands of psychs. In fact, you can bet that after decades of scientology targeting chiropractors and dentists, there are many chiropractors who use these sort of machines and funnel their earnings to scientology.
Science and logic play no part in scientology, despite Hubbard’s repeated claims about his application of science to the field of the mind and spirit. Scientology even advertises itself this way in their Super Bowl ads.
But the truth is: there is NO science in scientology. Just belief that everything Hubbard ever said is true despite any evidence to the contrary.
As someone who has been through ECT, I can attest that it is not painful nor horrifying. Since it is is done under special anaesthesia these days, there are no muscle spasms or broken bones. I experienced no memory or cognitive losses. It did help me get through a crippling bipolar depression that my usual medications weren’t helping, got me back to work and functioning like my old self. It was certainly better than being locked in a room in complete social isolation, hallucinating and in despair for weeks or months, ScieNOTology-style. There are a lot of people who have very strong opinions on psychiatric methods that have never experienced mental illness, and would not understand the level of suffering it causes that would make someone seek extraordinary treatments like ECT or psychiatric medications with their side effects. I have chosen treatment because IT WORKS, and the side effects are much less difficult than the symptoms of the illness itself. If you don’t know, ask somebody.
“There are a lot of people who have very strong opinions on psychiatric methods that have never experienced mental illness”
Yes. There are also people who drank to kool aid to the bitter end and, while having different opinions than you, can see both sides of the debate.
Yes, the scientology position is more than ridiculous. Yes, your position is an important one. But those who definitely have been hurt by psychiatry, they are stuck in between. And you do not seem to be thinking of them very much either. I do not see in your comments that you have been very much coerced. So please speak for your segment of the pro-psych crowd, but do not forget that there are others with very different experiences. Take their perspective into account when you make public statements about psychiatry. We’re more than tired of being “represented” by scientology. We need much more to be represented by you than by them.
Think about it.
Thank you.
I’m not sure what you are looking for here. I’ve known a ton more people who were helped by treatment than hurt by it, myself included. I am a certified peer support specialist working in advocacy to try to break the stigma of mental illness that is keeping people with real symptoms from getting help they need that would allow them to lead full and independent lives. I can’t speak to your situation. I can, however, state with 100% certainty that there is no ‘psychiatric industry’ out there conspiring to damage or control people. Every day I see mental health care budgets shrinking as states move money out of community programs aimed at supporting people in need because of the idea that mental illnesses are inventions of greedy drug companies or malevolent psychiatrists. All I can say is that I went from being on the streets, in jail, sick, hallucinating (having never once seen a psychiatrist or taken a pill!), to living a full, independent life when given community support and treatment. The people I work with every day have their own stories. I tell mine, and let them tell theirs. What nobody needs is someone else deciding for them what treatment they can seek or not seek based on stigmatizing, unfounded, conspiracy theories that presume people who seek treatment are dupes being controlled by some ‘industry of death’ that does not exist. We can make our own choices about treatment, we dont need to be ‘helped’ by anyone else seeking to limit the options.
“I’m not sure what you are looking for here.”
Well to state reality as bluntly as it is: 1. Psychiatry helps people like you get off the street, which is good. 2. People like you, who are “working in advocacy to try to break the stigma of mental illness that is keeping people with real symptoms from getting help they need that would allow them to lead full and independent lives” are therefore truly engaged in what you claim to be, but also provide a narrative factually justifying coercion. 3. Which has a side effect of endorsing coercing people on potentially dubious grounds 4. People whose existence you mostly likely will deny, as you likely believe that this coercion is generally justified 5. People which you then paint with a broad brush as believing that there is a “‘psychiatric industry’ out there conspiring to damage or control people. ” 6. Which is often times a factually untrue psychological projection, painting these people as loons, and in turn feeds into your likely narrative that people need help and loving coercion more than they know, and that all opponents to the concept of loving coercion are ipso facto to be lumped as scientologists or like-minded people.
My mother is a psychiatrist with really weird alt-med beliefs. She locked quite a number of her family up, with loving brutality and self-righteous tyranny and bullshit as justification. So I’m indeed in a specific place. But I really resent the general discourse described in the paragraph above that has made it extremely difficult, or more exactly impossible, to explain, over 18 years, what has been really going on in my family. I end up repeatedly lumped in the scientology crowd by chuckling self-righteous health professionals that engage in wild mind-reading fantasies on the topic of what I believe.
And they got it all wrong.
But all that doesn’t matter if it helps people like you get off the street, doesn’t it?
“What nobody needs is someone else deciding for them what treatment they can seek or not seek based on stigmatizing, unfounded, conspiracy theories”
That’s exactly the position I hold when condemning my psychiatrist mother’s behaviour.
“We can make our own choices about treatment, we dont need to be ‘helped’ by anyone else seeking to limit the options.”
Thank you for explicitly condemning the behaviour of my psychiatrist mother.
Do you know what is the diagnosis when a physician mother engages in bullshit to medically treat her kids to get the attention she craves by fellow physicians as the mother of really sickly kids? There is a science-based answer to this question. The diagnosis starts with an M, and is related to my pseudonym. And no, I won’t explicitly state it on this blog, as I do not want search engines to index this comment the wrong way.
Now please, stop lumping the “antipsychiatry” crowd with scientologists. They already tend to gravitate to CCHR-style positions. They do not need to pushed further in this direction. It is partly your responsibility, as a “peer support specialist working in advocacy” not to reinforce this trend.
That’s my point. I’ve really been shaking with dread when typing this answer.
Help us too. We need it. But psychiatry clearly hasn’t been an adequate answer.
It sounds like you’ve been through heck and back. I do not think all people who disagree with psychiatry are scientologists. I do not see how you got that impression but it is certainly not among my beliefs. I do believe that you are extrapolating a very specific situation with your mother to apply to a whole field of medicine that helps a lot of people. I hope you can find healing somehow. It is not my intention to hurt you or invalidate your suffering in any way. I myself was raped by a pediatrician in a hospital when i was 8 years old, but I don’t blame all pediatricians for my trauma. I know many people, friends, who choose not to take medicines or be under the care of a psychiatrist. I support them through their crisis points as they support me through mine. I don’t believe any of them are scientologists, and, except for your comments, I have never seen that idea afloat anywhere.
“I do believe that you are extrapolating a very specific situation with your mother to apply to a whole field of medicine that helps a lot of people.”
I believe that my position is much more subtle. I violently disagree with both psychiatry and “antipsychiatry” in many ways. I also violently agree with psychiatry and “antipsychiatry” in many ways. I indeed had to make my way through all the cognitive biases on all sides and to some extent I am still going through that process.
“I don’t believe any of them are scientologists, and, except for your comments, I have never seen that idea afloat anywhere.”
You should pay much more attention to what some psychiatrists really think. Not only what they appear to think. But it’s a really long shot to achieve that, I must say, and I sincerely hope you’ll never get around to that. Many psychiatrists are fine people who may or may not be misguided. Some psychiatrists have very nasty ideologies, and it’s a very diverse bunch of ideologies. Hopefully, patients can still rather often find something that helps them, even from an “evil” psychiatrist, but that’s in no way a universal statement.
I wish I could be more positive on the topic. Glad they got you off the street.
I would like to offer you an olive branch, followed by a hug. Hope things get better. If you are looking for support you could try NAMI.org. There are local affiliates everywhere offering support groups, classes, and peer support for free.
Thanks for extending an olive branch. Much appreciated.
The problem with the relationship between scientology and psychiatry goes deeper than mere bullshit.
Scientology is a very convenient lightning rod that deflects rational criticism of ethical issues in psychiatric practice and research to be addressed.
You criticise psychiatry? Therefore you’re a scientologist.
I’ve lived through these accusations countless countless countless times. And I’m severely pissed whenever I see this kind of emotional rhetoric masquerading as rational thought.
It’s time to stop the bullshit on all sides of the board!
In deference to the many ECT “researchers” here, I propose that every psychiatric unit set up the equivalent of an Org’s Dept. 13 – Exams and Attests etc. Now, with every poor soul that has received a round of ECT, they can then be sent to the Examiner (if they can still walk) to attest to their treatment. The Examiner of course asks them the key question “Would you want others to receive similar “gains” and “potential” that you have just received?” and to then write up their successes. (If any Q&A, send back for another 5 doses!) The level of research obtained will be astounding! How about that then?
FP, it sounds like you’re finally starting to understand that stories of “wins” prove nothing. Here, but they way, are some for ECT:
– https://www.isen-ect.org/patients-stories
ECT of course has actual scientific studies to support its effectiveness. The studies done on Dianetics and Scientology, including those by the CofS itself such as through FASE, actually disprove its theory and “workability.”
And, most importantly, almost 7 decades of real-world experience shows that Hubbard’s “work” doesn’t work, as shown by a huge number of people who have tried it for themselves and voted with their feet, leaving a tiny handful who have stayed hooked in to the religious belief aspects of Scientology. Even just as many decades of independent efforts outside of the Hubbard’s organization, have never produced anything viable.
“ECT of course has actual scientific studies to support its effectiveness.”
I know it has studies to support its “effectiveness”, though you would be a good sport to support your statement, next time, with links to research. I’m not accusing you of bullshitting, but it’s a good habit to pick up when it comes to “contentious” issues.
What worries me is the question of consent to ECT. I’m at a loss when it comes to pinpointing studies evaluating to which extent patients consent to ECT. All I find are newspapers articles (which I won’t link here because I do not want to be “accused” of “supporting” scientology).
In that newspaper article:
“In total, 96 patients in Northern Ireland were treated with ECT in 2014-15, both with consent and without. The BBC has learned that within that year there were 53 referrals to carry out electroconvulsive therapy on patients without their consent. This is up from the year 2011-12, when the figure was 36. In 2013-14 there were 55 such referrals.”
This is remarkably unsourced…
But yes, I do not know of a single patient that I personally met that has undergone ECT. But again, I lived somewhere where I do not believe it was practiced, so that’s also called selection bias. In the end, I have no solid clue, whether personal or scientific, as to the issue of consent to ECT in the places where it is practiced. And I’d really like to know.
Because I find it remarkably antiscientific not to disclose such kind of data in reputable peer-reviewed scientific journals.
I see a major problem with Scientology being excessive theorizing, and heavy reliance on speculative anecdotes. So I’m disappointed that my earlier question about whether the state of scientific research on ECT, when unanswered. I took some time to look for myself and see what might inform the conversation, and found this among other studies reaching the same general conclusions:
Efficacy and safety of electroconvulsive therapy in depressive disorders: a systematic review and meta-analysis.
UK ECT Review Group.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
We aimed to review published work for the efficacy and safety of electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) with simulated ECT, ECT versus pharmacotherapy, and different forms of ECT for patients with depressive illness.
METHODS:
We designed a systematic overview and meta-analysis of randomised controlled trials and observational studies. We obtained data from the Cochrane Collaboration Depressive Anxiety and Neurosis and Schizophrenia Group Controlled trial registers, Cochrane Controlled Trials register, Biological Abstracts, CINAHL, EMBASE, LILACS, MEDLINE, PsycINFO, and SIGLE, reference lists, and specialist textbooks. Our main outcome measures were depressive symptoms, measures of cognitive function, and mortality.
FINDINGS:
Meta-analysis of data of short-term efficacy from randomised controlled trials was possible. Real ECT was significantly more effective than simulated ECT (six trials, 256 patients, standardised effect size [SES] -0.91, 95% CI -1.27 to -0.54). Treatment with ECT was significantly more effective than pharmacotherapy (18 trials, 1144 participants, SES -0.80, 95% CI -1.29 to -0.29). Bilateral ECT was more effective than unipolar ECT (22 trials, 1408 participants, SES -0.32, 95% CI -0.46 to -0.19).
INTERPRETATION:
ECT is an effective short-term treatment for depression, and is probably more effective than drug therapy. Bilateral ECT is moderately more effective than unilateral ECT, and high dose ECT is more effective than low dose.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12642045
I note that some more recent studies state more conclusively that ECT is more effective than drug therapy, in treatment-resistant depression in particular.
I have seen similar reviews about modern ECT and its efficacy in treating mental disorders. The psychologists and psychiatrists I met and worked with after leaving Scientology had a degree of understanding, mercy and humanity that Hubbard never had … he had nothing but scorn for those around him as seen in his believe that all men were his slaves and some should be disposed of quietly and without sorrow. Hubbard had to denigrate the mental health field to hide his use of hypnosis in Dianetics and Scientology techniques.
This is a 2003 review based on short-term, inadequate data. Aside from the absence of any long-term follow-ups, the general questionnaires/rating scales typically used (eg. HDRS, MMSE) do not assess for side effects specific to ECT. (In fact, the large majority of studies reviewed didn’t report cognitive functioning data at all – a rather alarming fact the authors only briefly acknowledge).
More recent reviews include:
Kolar, D. (2017). Current status of electroconvulsive therapy for mood disorders: A clinical review. Evid Based Ment Health, 20(1), 12-14. 10.1136/eb-2016-102498
J., & Arnold, C. (2017). Is Electroconvulsive therapy for depression more effective than placebo? A systematic review of studies since 2009. Ethical Human Psychology and Psychiatry, 19, 5-23. 10.1891/1559-4343.19.1.5
mwesten the insane omission you mention happened because scientific studies were NOT made. They MUST be long term studies when dealing with brain functioning and side effects. In the time frame of ~50 years. Much like the landmark study in Sweden on marijuana usage.
What they have spewed out is designed for consumption by those not RIGOROUSLY trained in science.
mwesten, Kolar (2017) says “Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) is an effective treatment for mood disorders and a viable treatment option especially when urgency of clinical situation requires a prompt treatment response,” while Reed & Arnold (2017) say “A 2010 review of studies, previous reviews and meta-analyses found minimal evidence that electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) for depression was more effective than placebo during the treatment period and no evidence at all of efficacy beyond the end of treatment.”
It seems like the usefulness of ECT is limited – and thus it fits that its actual use is very limited, and over reserved for cases where other treatments don’t work.
I do agree that the current state of research is somewhat unsatisfactory. And I’m certainly a bit queasy about ECT as an approach, and wish that there were something better for suffers – and that its use be limited to cases where results-based, costs-versus-benefits analyses indicate that it is truly justified and the best option currently available.
Haha! What a hoot! Talk about electrifying the students! These guys and gals above are actually seriously discussing the “benefits” of ECT or whether it has been sufficiently “researched” and the “results” thereof! I recommend to them sticking wet fingers into an electric socket is all the research and result they will need! But failing that Mike should ask for test case volunteers here! I propose Kat and Mark as the first guinea pigs with Wynski as the (mad) operator all supervised by Chief Lab Rat Prof. B. Craven (sic).
Foolproof,
You always mock what you dont understand. ECT is NOT in common use. It is used ONLY if there are absolutely no other options and if the patient agrees to it. NO ONE is dragged off the street involuntarily and shocked.
Even though the mechanisms of the treatment are unknown, the results are almost always positive-. Some patients are not helped, but that is true in ANY medical procedure. Like many things in life, we may not understand it completely, but if it works, why shouldn’t it be offered to alleviate someones suffering? Or should we just withhold the possible treatment because you and others like you say we should?
Maybe one day, we will have all of the answers to how the brain works, as well as non-controversial ways to ‘fix’ mental illness that work for everyone and have no side effects. However, right now we do not have that- just like the rabid anti-vaxxers do not have another way to protect people from disease. They rant and rave against something they dont understand, take bits and pieces of unfinished and unsubstantiated research that have been repeatedly proven wrong, but offer no alternative solution. and before you argue- scientology is NOT an alternative solution to psychiatric help.
It seems to me, the people who are the most outspoken about things they disagree with are the ones who do not actually have any skin in the game. If you have never suffered from mental illness, why are you so rabid about the ways that are used to help? Is it because your mentally imbalanced leader Hubbard told you to be? and why was Hubbard so against psychiatry?? maybe because he WAS treated by psychiatrists?? why else would he be so rabid about the profession- ESPECIALLY when he originally sought their validation. That type of animosity doesn’t happen unless its a personal quest- like someone who looked up to a profession and wanted to impress their ‘mentor’ yet failed. Hubbards reaction tells me that he had some deep personal connection to the field and was crushed when he was rejected by them. That is why he was forever denigrating psychiatry. The timeline doesn’t lie.
Kat
The level of unashamed misleading juxtaposition in this article seemingly knows no bounds. You do realize Mike, that anyone with any sense will see the incongruities immediately? Let’s take the more milder ones first. Scientology and chiropractors: there was never any attempt by Hubbard to target chiropractors, or dentists for that matter. The reason that psychiatry and psychology was asked about Dianetics was that at least the subject matter was the same, but chiropractors? Where did you get the idea to drag them into the fray that you are trying to insinuate here?
Actually I could cut to the chase here and simply reiterate what Truth Seeker states below: very apt and truthful comment (for a change here). Read that, very straightforward rebuttal of all this nonsense here.
But to continue with misleading juxtapositions in this story: we have now an ECT machine and the E-Meter! Or how about a chiropractic muscle stimulator with an ECT machine? Funny but I don’t recall many broken backs or teeth or heart attacks, yet alone the fried brains resulting from ECT machines, emanating from an E-Meter nor a chiropractic muscle stimulator!
Now as to the silly statement about Wundt and Leipzig and Farsec etc. and Hubbard “changing his mind” what was meant was the first instance of this psychiatric “tech” on this planet? Not that such is important anyway – the making of such a comment seems rather childish to me. But this trite statement from Mike also seems like a “filler” to try and embellish the rest of the daft points being made here.
Anyway, when all is said and done, mosey on over to Youtube and dig up a few films on people being ECTed. Make sure you’ve got your vallium ready though!
ECT: scientifically tested in the laboratory by Chief Lab Rat (Prof. B. Craven) with Mark as new guinea pig on the block, and recommended for (nearly) all commenters here! BUY YOUR OWN ECT MACHINE ON AMAZON! Only $95,000! BUY NOW!
Blah, blah, blah….
*appears mental*
(Which is seriously hilarious considering an FBI agent said those very words about Hubbard after he wrote to the FBI to denounce the steward of the New York hotel where he was staying as a Nazi spy)
Mental? Who – you, or any of the other ECT advocates here?
Umm.. that’d be you and Hubbard.
For the record, I’m not an advocate of ECT. If it has helped people who tried every other avenue first, that’s good. If it didn’t help and made matters worse, obviously that’s not good.
Fool,
why don’t you mosey over to YouTube and look at pictures of people being saved with AED? that is also not pleasant to watch, but I bet if you asked the people saved by electrical shock to their heart to restart it, they wouldnt complain….
Kat
ANYONE who disagreed with Tubby’s insanity was labeled as a horrible criminal.
What IF a psychiatrist is a Scientologists too ? Also what if acts as expert witness for any criminal or civil court ? How they linking together ?
Good question!
Also, if Psychiatry is so evil and violent (what w/ all the torture),
how is what they did to Lisa McPherson not just as evil, if not WORSE?
And the beatings by Miscavige? The musical chairs? The starvation of RPF?
Those things sound worse than ECT or psychotropic drugs…… Just sayin’.
There was actually a psychiatrist who was a scientologist back in the old days, famous mission holder Sarge Gerbode. But that was back when Scientology seemed new and interesting, and like it might actually have something to offer. It’s lure has grown stale as its promises have failed to pan out, and and its anti-intellectual and anti-science attitudes have helped insure that they no longer attract anyone with rigorous advanced professional training, or even real science and research backgrounds at all.
Gerbode of course ended up leaving, and I’d say that with his subsequent research work he proved that there was nothing more to be salvaged from Dianetics and Scientology than a moderately effective talk therapy approach to dealing with trauma, rooted in the work of early psychoanalysts and psychiatrists.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(04)15460-3/fulltext
Well, well, well! SHOCK HORROR! I have never read such shit in all my life. But you’ll have to wait for the weekend for a more cogent reply as I haven’t got time – I am negotiating a mammoth deal with the North Koreans to sell them second hand ECT machines. Kim told me that he really wants “to fry these bastards brains – that’ll teach ’em!”
Waiting to hear where “NOTs BTs” come from…
Unfortunately, more time doesn’t make you more cogent. But looking forward to what you have to offer us on this subject.
BTS – Fake Love (방탄소년단) or from the Puccini aria ?cant see my comment any longer
BTS – Fake Love (방탄소년단) ?i cant see my comment any longer .
This file ‘NOTs BTs’ has never been publically released, since it contains information the Church of Scientology considers secret
Well, how about these, all from the NOTs materials:
“On the time track BTs were lied to and told they were being built into a body – they
have nothing to do with the body track at all, except to sit in or on the body. They had
“model forms” and BTs were made to assume “model forms”. It’s another valence trick
– they’re in the valence of a body, or part of a body, such as “torso”, “brain”, “arm”, etc.
NOTs Series 7
And how about: “A BT with an overt on other BTs or cluster, e.g. having made them into
a cluster.” NOTs Series 27.
And BTs being stuck in: “Old Between Lives areas, remote implant stations of the past.”
And “A BT who had no incident (Inc II or Inc I) and tried to run someone else’s;”
And from NOTs Series 10: “But Planet Earth was a dumping ground to end all dumping grounds. Actually the end of OT III is when those BTs and clusters which can be gotten into communication easily and can be made to run Incident IIs and Incident Is are gone. It’s not when all BTs in the whole universe that ever will be are gone.”
And from NOTs Series 1: “They’re like pebbles on a beach. Anyway, the EP of OT III gives only an apparency that all BTs and clusters are gone. There’s an axiom that says absolutes are unobtainable. If you don’t ever want to run into any more BTs or clusters, well you’d better go find some universe where they don’t exist. But actually, there are fewer of them hitting people and bouncing around than one would think. They light less often than one would suppose. But listen, you’re living in a universe which is crawling with this type of stuff. And planet Earth was a dumping ground to end all dumping grounds. Actually, the end of OT III is when those BTs and clusters that are easily put into communication are gone. It’s not when all BTs in the whole universe that ever will be, are gone.”
But Mike, why would you be worried about all this – you said that BTs were just your imagination and that you gave up with your own Solo NOTs as it was all your imagination! So as you have asked for references to things, so how about this apt one from NOTs Series 49: “Any trouble on NOTs has traced back to failure to clear words misunderstood in either the OT III materials or in the NOTs materials. This gives the solution to any auditor or C/S troubles with NOTs. Clear the MU words, and re-study the materials so that you do understand and can apply them.”
Whilst you are in cramming, you might bring Leah along with you to clear up her MisUs on OTIII as well.
Errrm, no. Not even close. Anyone can read these and conclude they do NOT say anything about some other way of forming BT’s than Xenu freezing them in glycol, shiiping them to Teegeack, blowing them up with hydrogen bombs in volcanoes and showing them 36 days of implant pictures.
Even a BT with “no incident 2 or 1” is just what the BT “thinks” like a pc with “no engrams”.
You are misreading (and then spinning) what is said in these quotes. Anyone familiar with auditing and/or OT levels will read your comments and laugh.
You are dishing out verbal tech and alterations which is a no-no. I think I will have to do a posting with the real, handrwitten “tech” just to make it all clear to anyone you have now confused.
The only one spinning a yarn here is you. The materials listed above are quite straightforward.
And no, a BT with no Incident 2 or 1 is – a BT with no Incident 2 or 1, not what you “spin” it to be. The rest of the quotes above speak for themselves.
So, that’s it. This was your proof?
An interesting test and I am glad you participated and didn’t squirrel off into the ether.
Appreciated.
Wow.
Foolproof, assigning significance to Hubbard’s fantastical ass-spew and piss-poor 1950’s pulp sci-fi-again!
Folks, this is the scientological cranial echo chamber in action. A mildly dramatic display of culty stupidity and arrogance.
FP, you remind me why Scientology is shrinking and failing. The old theoretical arguments about how many thetans can spin on the head of a pin, or whatever, get tiresome, particularly in the absence of convincing real-world results. The arrogant certainty and quarrelsomeness of the current tiny crop of indies – all of whom seem to have different takes on “tech” that is supposed to be incontrovertibly clear – keeps them unable to even save themselves, much less to seem attractive to the sort of intellectually and spiritually curious outsiders who Scientology was once able to recruit.
Didn’t Hubbard say that if Scientology worked, it would practically sell itself? How do you justify the actual, undeniable, across-the-board failure, and who or what do you blame it on?
Scientology claims to be a “science”.
Can I see BEE TEE’s and Cluster’s under a microscope?
Where is the proof of XENU?
Just because you believe in XENU and the BT’s and CLUSTERS… does not make them real. It makes you delusional.
ISIS martyrs who flew planes into the World Trade Center “believed” they were going to have 91 virgins for giving up their lives for the cause. They were following their “scriptures.
Scientologists, not able to think for themselves – go broke, get divorces, experience a lifetime of financial ruin, shattered relationships, become “pan determined due to “WHAT WOULD RON DO” policies and believe what ever the upper management lies are fed to them.
Scientologists are trained to lie to others, lie to themselves and become arrogant and righteous. INSOUCIENT!
Scientologists are in a constant state of fear due to implanted conspiracy theories and chasing carrots on a stick after “PAYING FOR THEM” (which sets the hook). They also get trapped by getting their families and friends in.
Fearing what SP may be in their vicinity, they live lonely, isolated lives except for the group propaganda feeding parties they have at their morgues.
I have done my research and have concluded that Scientologists live in a state of FEAR. They become insane.
Very sad to watch you so duped FOOLPROOF. I hope you come to your senses some day.
Fool Proof fails to understand that Lron Hubbard was a SCIENCE FICTION WRITER….there are NO B.T’s….& no one in COS will EVER have super powers or a “new meat body”.
No one currently IN COS nor anyone who has ever DIED while in COS has EVER stepped forward to say that are in a brand spanking NEW “Meat Body”…nor has anyone to date been able to “recall his past life:…..You know, the one where the “new meat body” recalls anything about their former/past life so they can use all that money that is being HELD in that “special account” that they PAID ahead of time for courses they are supposed to take…but will NEVER get to take because they can’t remember their past name, past parents’ or siblings’ names or where they lived or when they lived, or what level of the bridge they were on…..
Lron wrote FANTASY OF HIS MIND….Sorry to disappoint some people but there really was NO Chewbacca or Ewoks either……
The only one sidling off here is you.
I am here every day, under my own name. No hiding for me Fool. Unlike you.
I think Mike should post the true identity of lack of proof this fool is spinning, like a SCT would do to ex members lol. Is he just a troll or higher up in COS?
Mike,
Just give FoolProof the blue pill. He will be right as rain in the morning and continue to believe what he wants to believe.
FP I don’t get why you read this blog or why you comment.
I can’t recall seeing you agreeing with Mike or other commenters. But I see a lot of you arguing your options and perspectives.
Wouldn’t your efforts be better spent in writing your OWN blog?? Or, at the very least, being a part of a blog of like minded individuals?? Why waste your time here??
I don’t see anyone coming to your defense or agreeing with your comments so what’s the point?? Go play nicely somewhere else instead of being the resident shit stirrer here!!
Wouldn’t you rather spend time where people would welcome your thoughts instead of mentally rolling their eyes when they see your name?? It’s your choice obviously but it’s kind of like your putting the “fool” in “Foolproof” every time you come back.
Smokee,
Fool, while mildly annoying, actually helps me see how very, very, very crazy the world of scientology is. In a way, he is preforming a service for never-ins like me. Its almost impossible for me to understand how the cult works without his raving about Hubbard’s glorious brilliance (in actuality stupidity) and seeing his single-minded rabid defense of said ideas. besides, its actually interesting to bait him and watch him froth at the mouth…mean, but interesting.
Kat
Yoda says: “The Ev Purps are strong with this one!”
I love that FOOLPROOF is here posting. It helped one of my friends who had been lurking for years. To see what normal human beings say about Scientology and L Ron Hubbard without the fear of getting punished helped them LEAVE Scientology for good.
Thanks FOOLPROOF. Please do continue. I personally enjoy proving you wrong and helping lurkers get out.
Foolproof:
I would LOVE to read all of the sources of independent verification of the effectiveness of dianetics and scientology that you must have at your disposal. I think it would be awesome if you could, at least ONCE, bring empirical data and rigorously researched proof of the assertions and claims you make here to the discussion. Instead, you stubbornly insist that scientology is true and that it works and then engage in your usual ad hominem and illogical bloviating.
If, indeed, the ” tech ” works 100% of the time when applied 100% ” standardly, then there ought to be a meticulously curated,
scientifically rigorous account of its 6 decades of proven effectiveness now, in 2019. As Hubbard said,” I have made a breakthrough in this field. It has taken 38 years of hard work.It is successful. IT CAN BE SUBJECTED TO THE USUAL SCIENTIFIC PROOFS AND CONTROLS .”
https://www.lronhubbard.org/articles-and-essays/researching-in-the-humanities-2.html
To put this to you in scientologese: knock off the nattering, knows-best, invalidative, reactive dramatizing here and put your “TR’S” in and bring factual data to the table. You allegedly possess the ” admin and technical tech ” to do so, so show us. Again, Hubbard confirms that it’s all scientific, so it should be quite easy for you to respond to this challenge.
Good luck?
Ah! I see we have another Lab Rat straight out of the maze after being electro-shocked by Ms B. Haven to steer in a certain direction. Don’t know where you’ve been for the last few months Mark but we’ve had this discussion ad infinitum. Can’t you think of something original? Still, most of the stuff here is simply regurgitation so you’re in good (bad) company at least.
For Foolproof, the perpetually disingenuous troll:
You can’t participate in a civil, logical debate here and answer simple questions with factual answers based on references to empirical , scientific research. Your responses are, instead, sarcastic insults and attempts to derail and misdirect. Thanks, again, for the predictable graphic display of scientological arrogance and inability to reason and defend assertions and claims.
Your own cult defines stupidity as unknownness of time,place, form, and event; the readers here thank you for your consistently amusing and breathtaking demonstrations of that definition.
Still waiting for direct, factual answers from you; I want to believe that you can do something other than talk shit here. Bring the links here to the empirical, scientific data that supports your points and I will happily peruse it!
Fool Proof….Prove your “super powers” and make yourself DISAPPEAR.
when are people going to learn the golden rule of ‘don’t feed the troll’? I know it gives you all some misguided sense of achievement to shoot down this poster, but all you’re doing is playing their game and making yourselves annoyed for no reason.
Ignore. Ignore. Ignore. Or continue to let FP win.
Troll Proof, we don’t want the Fool to go away. He serves the sames purpose for people first coming to this blog as those “This is your brain of drugs” commercials did for kids thinking about taking their first drugs. If people think that they MIGHT become like Fool they won’t want to EVER take part in the cult.
Haha! No no – it works both ways Wyn – we don’t want any riff-raff or loonies in Scientology like the lot who post here, you know the standard A-Jers, not to mention the A-Eers.
Hi Wynski, altho I’d like to think that a vast majority of the people involved in CoS are genuinely good people and not at all like FP, I do think what you say is valid. I couldn’t see it from that perspective having already concluded long ago that CoS is something to stay far away from.
I do believe that the rest of the commenters here also serve that purpose in a much less antagonistic way…others though who, like you say, are here for the first time could definitely benefit from FP’s *ahem* “input”.
Have fun with him! 😉
I’m beginning to lose count of the number of different derivations of my nom de plume. Foolproof is CAUSE, derivations such as FP Junior etc . are EFFECT! Bow down now you worthless A-Jers!
Sorry Fool but what you listed states NO additional ways BTs were made. You through up lots of text but NO mention of them being made elsewhere.
If you have the ref show the hitherto neunknown incident where they were made.
Don’t worry. Hubtard was a poor writer and his made up history of the universe is not internally consistent/logical anyway. E.g. spaceships that travel between galaxies and have wings, tail & and a glass cockpit. OMFG.
Hubbard doesn’t state in any materials how other BTs are actually made, that was not the original contention so don’t try and put words in my mouth. I didn’t say that if you read the original comments but in your haste to invalidate that slipped by you eh? No, it is Mike that is assuming that the only BTs in the whole history of the whole track and universes, came from OTIII, but we already see from the NOTs quotes above this obviously isn’t the case.
And he doesn’t say ANY OTHER BTs were made. THEREFORE, by DEFINITION, you are engaging in what Hubtard called, DUB-IN. As your MATERIALS don’t claim ANY OTHERS WERE MADE.
LMAO*
*Sometimes it can be amusing to expose the trolls who pretend to know about scamology and Hubtard but are just liars
Mike,
FP is a Clayton’s $camologist.
” I am negotiating a mammoth deal with the North Koreans to sell them second hand ………………”
Why not get that load of useless meters off the shelf at Int and negotiate a real mammoth deal. You can deliver them personally to Kim …………….. tell him Dave sent you with a gift. Time to get back on course Eff Pee.
“Well, well, well! SHOCK HORROR! I have never read such shit in all my life.” I agree wholeheartedly with the shit you wrote. Your insight into yourself is amazing.
If there’s one thing missing from Tom Cruise’s life it’s a fucking psychiatrist with a prescription pad. everytine he do them interview like on Oprah and shit he show what a looney tunes mo fucka he be. Hit dat man with a animal trank gun someone.
“ECT is not a concept I find appealing in any way, it seems barbaric to me”
I had a relative that was a clinical psychiatrist. HE said that there is no medical or scientific test basis for ECT and it is pretty torturous.
Wynski,
It is done under anesthesia now, so the patient isn’t awake or aware of the convulsion. There is no scientific test on ECT because it isn’t completely understood how it works or why it works. It is still being researched. (Until there is a scientific test to map electrical currents in the brain and link them to illnesses, there is no way for anyone to scientifically research it- it’s close, but still not quite close enough). But, it does work.
Kat
Kat, even if the science behind ECT isn’t fully understood, isn’t there at least research demonstrating its effectiveness?
Doesn’t matter. The damage to the body still occurs. If I knock you out then beat you with a bat it is just as bad for the body.
It doesn’t “work” It has been PROVEN to cause brain damage and major memory loss. Unfucking believable
ECT has demonstrated significant improvement in severe, refractory depression. It is not commonly done, compared to deep brain stimulation, microsurgery, and medication.
Show the DEFINITIVE peer reviewed clinical trials that support the medical theory behind ECT AND run long enough (40 years at least) to catalog negative effects) or dry up. It is QUACKERY as it completely lacks that type of rigorous testing.
Wyn, have you just done A-E in the last 24 hours? This is most uncharacteristic of you, responding as you do above!
As to your thing on the order of Ls, the order is dictated by the CS in parallel with the pc’s case. Otherwise 11, 12, 10 or to put it differently small, medium, large, like coffee served at Starbucks. 11, 10, 12 was Flag preference generally under Richard Reiss I think, perhaps it is in PT too, but it really depends on the CS and his adjudication of the PC.
For a second there I thought that scientology was banning the emeter! What a shock that would be!
Actually, it might be smart for Miscavige to pull another fast one on his flock by claiming that previous emeters are all null and void, and sell new ones. It is not an unprecedented move by the demonic little shyster.
He simply has to announce some previously undiscovered LRH tech or documents about the emeter, info that he can just pull out of his ass… who is going to question a cult leader like Miscavige?
Supposedly your required to own 2 e meters at 5k ea.
Without reading a single word of Scn doctrine you would think that looking at the $5,000 price tag on the e-meter would send people heading to the exit doors. Curiosity is strong in some people. In 1977 my e-meter cost $150 and it worked as expected in session.
I never took any admin courses, only auditor training. I considered my role as an auditor to be similar (but senior) to that of a psychologist. That was then and this is now.
It was always clearly stated that Scientology did not deal with the mentally ill or the insane. Psychiatry did whatever it did and that was not my job. Psychology and psychoanalysis “sessions” run by the hour obviously didn’t go into any depth of “case”. “Time is up. See you next week.” Those were my thoughts back then.
What Are Your Crimes, DM is a step ahead of you. He already did that: banned using the “old” meters and now the super duper Mark whatever meter is out and costs a lot of money. Here at Mike’s and the bunker we call them the “Warehouse Meters” because they have been built and waiting in a ware house for years.
I knew an OT VII who had her required 2 meters, and was ready to go on the Ship to do VIII, But right about that time the new meters came in and they wouldn’t let her go for OT VIII until she bought a new meter at $5,000. So she had to break up her auditing pkg to get the money for her meter and thus didn’t make it on the Ship. Maybe that is a blessing in disguise.
Foolproof says he’s a member of a group. I wonder what kind of e-meters they use. There are probably some knock offs available on the internet. It’s not rocket science. The next time he shows up I’ll ask him.
Oh! All different ones with some auditors preferring one type, some others. I have 3 Quantums, one of which has just died on me – battery needs replacing I think, which is why I have 3.
FP – Excellent. Thanks for the reply. Some people are experimenting with internet auditing. It’s advanced to at least being face to face on a computer screen.
Someday there might be holographic auditing. People could get audited in a mock up of L Ron’s office at Flag. Wow! The auditor might even be a holographic mock up of Ron himself. Double wow!
I need some music. No insult intended toward FP or other indies who mostly agree DM screwed everything up.
Henry Rollins – “Liar” (fun video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awY1MRlMKMc
Lafayette was nothing but a ‘snake oil salesman’ – “Never underestimate the power of STUPID people in large groups”. HA – let us see how much vitriol that attracts from STUPID people – HA.
Have a nice day to you all – (except to “Scientology” filth – I strongly suggest that you should all return to Farsec – or is that F-cksec?).
ECT works. My Aunt who got very depressed later in life undergoes it and there is almost an immediate change in her mood and her ability to get out of bed.
If anyone knows of “The Bloggess” she writes about taking TMS treatments which is a milder form of brain stimulation. She is also clinically depressed and many medications have not helped her. TMS works.
Maybe hieroglyphics would be better for both of us.
As far as why the Church lumps together all electro-stimulation machines, from the mildest to the most damaging, something about A=A…
Re the infamous letter to the VA, obviously nobody really knows. We can easily guess what Scientologists would say (forgery, LRH was researching mental hospitals, it was the only way he could collect his pay from a corrupt system), and what anti-Scientologists would say (mental case, early motivation to seek vengeance on psychiatry).
On things I have no way of knowing, I’m happy with a shrug and a “Quien sabe”.
Good point about the A=A – Scientology propaganda uses that a lot, along with “merchant of chaos” style fear-mongering, and yet those in the bubble seem not to notice.
However, I think claiming that we can’t know about something like Hubbard’s cry for psychological help, is a cop-out.
Forgery is pretty much ruled out, except for the most preposterous of vast conspiracy theories.
There are various ways to “research,” and Hubbard did finally find one of them without help from the government, in Georgia in 1948* – one can always get a job in a mental hospital, as he claimed he did, though it may be more likely that his family paid for him to be treated for a couple of months.
Hubbard was granted disability pay for supposed injuries, not psychological ailments – and only the latter would have prevented his continuing his pre-war work as a writer – so claims along those lines don’t stand up to scrutiny, either.
I think you may still be under the influence of Scientology propaganda that was intended to make you doubt even reality.
We know from things like the testimony of family and friends, and court cases for fraud and passing bad checks, that Hubbard was struggling after the war in a way that fits with his letter begging for help from the VA – and not succeeding as a writer, the way Scientology propaganda claims. That establishes the facts well enough, as about anything in history.
I’m even suspicious that what got Hubbard back on track to get back to his writing efforts and then Dianetics, may have been treatment at that clinic in Georgia with the then-common opioids and amphetamines that he admitted to using later, or even electroshock – and it would be in character for him to make claims to try to distract from such uncomfortable truths, and to rail against something he was once involved in himself. Now that’s the thing we have to shrug our shoulders about, and say we can’t really know – unless some new evidence comes to light.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_and_psychiatry#Savannah,_Georgia_psychiatric_clinic
Since FP has reappeared, I’m reminded of the question of whether diehards blame the failure of Scientology on the “psychs”. I can’t imagine how the true believers who imagine that their “wins” are real and meaningful, can explain why Scientology is nonetheless failing to attract new people like both the CofS and independent Scientology once did, and is instead shrinking and failing across the board, except to blame it on a third party – has the psych conspiracy upgraded their implant station on Mars to make more recently born humans even more resistant?
I’d love to know what they think, though I suspect even FP hesitates to tell us his thoughts on that subject – though he does sometimes guardedly hint at the “psych conspiracy” – knowing how insane it even sounds.
Oh, and “The drill” is to gather a few dozen of the dwindling number of members, and then get photographed, preferable in front of some other crowd, so as to appear like a significant number.
They are really getting into something they know little to nothing about. YES, it’s true, not ALL psychiatry is perfect, like any OTHER medical profession….including COS “Touch Assist” bullshit.
As the sister to an older brother who IS & has been mentally ill most of his life, I can attest to the fact that ONLY the Psychiatric field has ever helped him. Way back when children weren’t “supposed to have mental illness”….these same children were diagnosed as “inattentive, unsettled, trouble makers”. In the 1700 & 1800’s mentally ill family members were locked away in attics or basements…in the late 1800’s & early 1900’s it was asylums where they died of communicable diseases & disease “nice people don’t talk about to each other”.
My brother had a full blown mental breakdown at age 17 & was hospitalized for months & placed on medication….the worst scenario was “electro shock therapy”…WHO KNEW anything in the mid 1960’s as Mental Health & Psychiatry were still FLOUNDERING in their own mire….no one had answers.
One only has to view the TV Documentary on January (Jani) Schofield…a little girl diagnosed with full blown Schizophrenia at age 6. Due to the parents continued arguments over her and her brother Bodhi’s treatments for their mental health issues, the children were recently removed from the mother’s home and are now in the care of DIFUS. Their parents who divorced a few years ago, appeared on Dr. Phil & the father Michael Schofield…a College Professor has written a book entitled “Born Schizophrenic”.
My brother’s biggest problem is himself. As soon as the “meds kick in” and he has both feet back on the ground…he thinks he is “cured” & then when permitted to leave the Adult Home or Group Home for a few hours…he disappears without his meds…ending up wandering the streets & then being placed in the Psychiatric Ward of the nearest Hospital for a few weeks. Once he is stabilized it’s back to a Group Home or Adult Home or wherever there’s a bed…he has been diagnosed with Schizophrenia since age 17. HE IS HIS OWN WORST ENEMY.
My brother is 72 now…still not doing what he’s supposed to do….YOU cannot help someone who does not WANT to be helped…….Psychiatry DOES HELP ONLY IF THE PATIENT COOPERATES…..
SCREW COS, THEY’VE NO IDEA OF THE HARM THEY HAVE DONE & CONTINUE TO DO.
Balletlady,
Your brother’s story is the story of my (ex)friend’s son who became schizophrenic at 17 and has since been in and out of mental hospitals and various temporary facilities for decades. He hates to stay on his medication so his life is a constant mental rollercoaster. He’s never committed a legal crime except vagrancy because his mother has helicoptered over him for nearly 60 years.
He is severely schizophrenic; without his medication he is – unrecognizable. A truly frightening creature and I do mean “creature” because there’s something not human or demonic that comes out of him when he’s not sedated.
I’m not inferring that your brother is as severely schizophrenic. I know there are degrees of this.
His illness is intense. On several occasions I have observed him growl and snarl like a beast when off his meds.
My ex-friend has never left him. She loves him and will never leave him. I cannot be around him. That’s why she and I are no longer friends. I think he should be locked up someplace.
Some mental home where the caregivers are kind and caring as well as expert. There have to be places like this, I would think.
But though his mother has the money she will not have him committed, or perhaps she legally can’t, because of his not having broken the law.
Long winded point being, I would not want to be anywhere near this man when he’s off his medication. He is scary, ala Mr. Rochester’s first wife scary in the novel “Jane Eyre”. Gothic scary. Only this is a male, not a female.
The Church of Scientology wants to abolish psychiatric medication – my God! Without medication, THIS particular schizophrenic would have to be kept in chains, in leg irons, like those in the infamous Bedlam of yore.
And I knew him as a little boy. A little blond, blue eyed kid, who at 17, turned into – whatever he is.
The Church of Scientology is completely out of its depth as regards mental illness of this caliber.
I have a childhood friend that I have watched make a steady decline into deeply paranoid and delusional thinking.
Medication is the only thing that coaxes a rational being out of him, unfortunately he follows a 3-6 month cycle of treatment,stability, stops taking meds, hospitalization.
The only thing that I believe will stop the cycle is if he commits a violent act and gets incarcerated.
From my life long experience with him, and his accelerating decline with age, I fear violence will be the ultimate end.
ECT in the late 70s was a painless treatment. Some people got a headache afterwards, usually mild and lasting less than a couple of hours. I don’t recall if ECT was indicated for schizophrenia or not. I know psychiatrists had latitude in administering it for various diagnoses – it was tried as a means to break up the pattern of regular opiate use, for example.
As for the pattern of getting better with psychotropic meds, then trashing the meds and getting worse, then being forced to take meds and getting better again, round and round, – that is not unusual for schizophrenic patients. After a few days of taking them, the meds work – the patient thinks and feels he is Normal again, except for the side effects of the meds. The meds do have negative side effects – impotency, Tardive dyskinesia, others – so a Normal person would obviously want to quit taking them to get rid of the unpleasant side effects. Knowing that Tardive dyskinesia (TD) can become permanent puts time pressure on the patient to quit the meds sooner rather than later.
Thus the roller coaster effect of good-bad-good again relief offered by the meds. If you or a loved one have ever experienced Tardive dyskinesia you would know why the patient wants to ditch the meds, especially when TD sumptoms appear. Currently there is one medication supposed to offer some relief from the symptoms of TD, but the fact that its dosage was doubled by the FDA from 40mg/day to 80mg/day just six months after introduction shows it had not been as effective as hoped.
Maybe someday there will be a magic pill that stabilizes the schizophrenic patient without the undesirable side effects. When that happens the roller coaster pattern will be greatly reduced. Until then, don’t be too hard on the patient – for them, quitting psychotropic meds is the most rational decision a normal person can make, especially if they begin to suffer to effects of TD.
As we know, medications effect people in different ways, what works for one patient might NOT work for another. What appears like a “magic pill” for one individual, wrecks havoc on another person’s mental or physical health.
It’s a crap shoot that only our OWN body’s physiology can determine cause & effect. My brother was on more medications than I could possibly name here, most worked BUT he HAD TO TAKE THEM long term or forever in many cases, which he would NOT do.
BTW editing feature once again hit or miss AND I cannot see my comments after posting or replying sometimes…..scheez
I don’t blame the patient AT ALL – once the feeling of normality returns – for wanting to ditch the medications causing the side effects. Hope springs eternal in all of us. The person feels good, feels normal again. “This stuff is not HELPING me anymore. Now its making me feel BAD. Enough of this stuff, its not working anymore!” Totally understandable. If it were me I’d want to ditch the meds IMMEDIATELY. If it were me, I’d decide that a time when I felt normal being myself WITHOUT medication, however brief, would be worth it for the pain to come once more.
ECT isn’t used except as a ‘last resort’ treatment. Generally it is used to ‘re-set’ the brain when severe debilitating depression and suicidal ideation are uncontrollable and do not respond to other treatment options. These patients are unable to cope with life outside of an institution and have generally tried suicide multiple times. It is ONLY used after every other option has failed. It is also safe, as long as the staff is properly trained and the equipment is not faulty (which is a requirement in any facility- this is very closely monitored). I would equate it with someone who has a breast cancer. We will attempt chemotherapy, radiation and surgical removal of the tumor, but if it starts to metastasize, we will need to do a mastectomy to save the patient. We dont do a mastectomy first. We do everything possible to avoid that, but sometimes its the only option if the patient wants to survive. The side effects of the chemo and radiation arent pleasant either, but millions accept that treatment as a life saving step. ECT has been misunderstood by many for decades, and it has advanced as well as the other treatments in psychiatry.
The profession, like the medical profession, started out with some brutal treatments, but the advances have outpaced the medical field as far as time frames go. Medical interventions began as soon as man began to roam around. Trephining was a procedure done to ‘fix’ certain conditions (there have been archeological digs that have uncovered trephined skulls and the tools used to preform it). skulls showed multiple holes chiseled into them with degrees of healing which shows people survived it. (without anesthesia). medicine took thousands of years to advance to where it is today. So in the grand scheme of time, the psychiatric field advanced amazingly quickly.
Hubbard never took the time to actually do the research necessary to advance ANY scientific theory. If he had, he MIGHT have come up with something viable (unlikely, but possible) instead of cobbling random thoughts into his thesis. He failed to do the necessary work involved in scientific research. He also couldn’t seem to grasp that just because you SAY something is fact doesnt MAKE it fact.
This prolonged campaign is doomed to failure. While the 1950’s and 1960’s mistrust of psychiatry was strong, it has now become commonplace for people to rely on therapy of different sorts. Just look at the major backlash that Tom Cuise faced after ranting about antidepressants. Most people today are not willing to accept what someone says as ‘fact (with the exception of scientologists and conspiracy theorists). As their numbers dwindle, people outside the bubble have learned the truth about the mental health field. Some still distrust it, but claiming the holocaust and 911 were plots devised by psychiatrists isnt likely to get very many nods. Not to mention that many of the early psychologists and psychoanalysts were Jewish. Not sure how they manage to get around that little fact when talking about the holocaust….
Kat
At the outset, and as a preemptive defense against the inevitable charges of “trolldom” by the Church, David Miscavage is a criminal sociopath who should be behind bars. I’m also not an “Independent Scientologist”. I do, however, like the truth, no matter where it takes me.
First, while it’s very true that leading psychiatrists rejected Dianetics, the assertion that that’s why Hubbard turned on them is demonstrably false. I can provide, to anyone interested, at least half a dozen derogatory statements he made about psychiatry in his fiction from the 30s and 40s. Some of them are remarkably similar to what he wrote years later in Scientology.
Second, the concept of institutional psychiatry as a highly destructive force which has permeated all levels of society, from education to the law to morality, has been written about by a number of scholars, many themselves psychiatrists. A brief, but well written, overview of this can be found on the Wikipedia page under “Anti-psychiatry“.
Third, evidence of psychiatry as a hidden influence behind Nazi Germany and the Holocaust is also covered by at least half a dozen researchers, none of them conspiracy theorists, crackpots, or Scientologists. Unfortunately, two of them, “Germany Betrayed” and a second title I can’t recall, were written in Germany shortly after the war and have never been translated into English. Dr. Fredric Latham’s “A Sign for Cain” delves into it in detail, especially Chapter 4, “The Geranium in the Window”. Dr. Thomas Szasz, a psychiatrist and ally of the Church, though not a Scientologist, documented over 100,000 deaths of “mental undesirables” at the hands of psychiatry which then served as a direct prototype for Hitler’s extermination camps for the Jews.
Finally, as far as comparing electric shock (which Dr. Friedberg refers to as “rape of the soul”) to chiropractors’ use of very mild electrical stimulation of specific nerves to wake them up… well, words fail me.
A couple of things, but I appreciate your perspective.
If Hubbard was convinced psychiatry was bad BEFORE Dianetics, why did he request psychiatric treatment from the VA and why did he seek their approval and endorsement for Dianetics?
And to be clear — I was NOT comparing those machines to ECT. It is SCIENTOLOGY that equates ECT to “brain stimulation machines” and “Electrical pulse devices”… Those things are akin to the devices used by chiropractors. Perhaps I did not make it clear that this was the point I was making. Scientology uses the scare words “ECT” and is now lumping in things that are NOT ECT simply because psychiatrists apparently use them.
Words fail me.
Truth Seeker,
While there is some truth to your statements- there were abominable treatments early on in psychiatry, and there were deplorable conditions in early asylums, thinking that those conditions remained static is…well..crazy. The profession, just like all, evolved as scientific discoveries were made. Medicine did as well. We no longer use bleeding as a treatment, and while there is a medical use for leeches, it no longer involves placing them on someone who is sick as a cure. If your contention is that psychiatry is still in the same state as it was when Hubbard determined it to be ‘evil’, then you obviously havent read any thing about the profession. As to the contention that psychiatrists worked with Nazis, Dr.Mengele was a doctor. As were many doctors who experimented on people in the camps. I dont hear anyone saying that doctors were behind the holocaust.
People are people first, their profession second. When you say something like psychiatrists were behind the holocaust, or ‘influencing’ the holocaust, you are portraying an entire profession as evil. I am sure there were nazi’s who were psychiatrists, just like there were preists, doctors, scientists, masons, haberdashers, ditchdiggers, machinists and every other profession out there. The way that you are portraying the role of psychiatrists in Nazi Germany would be like saying Albert Einstein and other scientists plotted the death of Japanese people because of their work as scientists. It is a sweeping declaration aimed at portraying an entire profession as ‘evil’ because there were psychiatrists who believed that Nazism would unite Germany. it is an unfair and blatant prejudice that you should think about before believing it. Think about it a little while. I am sure that there was someone in which ever profession you claim who wasnt a nice person. What is the history of your profession? was it always completely devoid of abuses and/or human rights violations? If its been around for ANY length of time, the answer is likely no.
Kat LaRue, yours is a gentle and wise voice in this hurricane of emotions. Thank you.
ECT is to ‘rape of the soul’ as grape jelly is to granite. In other words, there is no comparison at all.
“Rape of the soul” is just a clever sound bite by someone who apparently equates the brain with the soul, and thus would also be against removing a malignant brain tumor, or re-training a brain-damaged person through physical therapy, because either of those actions would also be affecting the brain, i.e., raping the soul, in some manner.
He also shows that he has no idea what rape actually is. Typical all-knowing male intellectual who has never been raped.
BTW, if anyone can prove to me that such a thing as a soul actually exists I will give them $1.98 in change, as soon as my sofa gives it up.
Back even in the days of Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibniz all the great intellectuals were still heavily involved in pulling science out of their asses. They would proclaim the existence of this or that by simple decision, and try to use logic to support their decision. Such thinking over the centuries gave us the four elements – earth, air, fire and water – and such amazing ideas as Phlogiston, Solomon’s gold, and the ‘science’ of Phrenology (reading head bumps), plus the wonderful healing effects of Magnetism, Opium, Tobacco, and Radium Water. Beware of grim pronouncements such as comparing ECT to ‘rape of the soul’ – they just might be words pulled out of an ass, by an ass. Which is not to say all treatments were sweet and light from their very beginning – remember anesthesia and anti-biotics were not invented until hundreds of years after amputations became the common solution to prevent gangrene of a limb.
Electroconvulsive Therapy is basically the most effective treatment with the fewest and least severe side effects for many psychiatric disorders known to man. It’s effective particularly for cases where depression has proven resistant to treatment by other means, namely medications. It is done under a general anesthetic. It doesn’t really resemble the depiction in movies like One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest or Requiem For a Dream.
With no offense to those who disagree or to whom are knowledgeable on the subject of ECT therapy, and as ignorant as I personally am about the subject, I am going on record as saying that I would rather be dead than submit to having electricity applied to my brain. Electricity applied to my brain? Uh uh. And that’s ALL I need to know.
For me – for ME, not you, not anyone else, mind you – for me, if I were THAT far gone mentally, that susceptible to killing myself, I would opt for Assisted Suicide, in some country where its legal. Or if there is no such country, I’d take care of it myself.
I’d rather kill myself quickly than slowly.
To my mind, electroshock or ECT or whatever its called now is unspeakably barbaric and I’d never submit to it or recommend it to anyone.
It might keep me and somewhat functioning and cogent but that wouldn’t be good enough for me. That wouldn’t make it worthwhile for me to be alive.
“Alive” to me means far more than being a mass of breathing, ambulatory, somewhat cogent protoplasm. Longevity without adequate functionality (as I define it, which may NOT be the way YOU define it) is vastly over-rated.
I’d rather pack it in for this life (or as the case may be, for my only life, as I don’t profess to know) and find out whatever “eternity” has in store for me.
Seriously. I’m not being funny. I’d either live again, or, I wouldn’t. At least I’d find out. Something to look forward to. A mystery to solve.
Being alive wouldn’t be worth much to me if I couldn’t do most of what I felt I should be doing at any given stage of life.
This is a highly subjective opinion and it cannot be overstressed that I’m applying it ONLY to myself and my own life and death.
OK, feel free to disagree and/or pile on. I can take it 🙂
Aqua,
What do you think the side effects of ECT are??? Im at a loss. It doesn’t render someone into a vegetative state. Basically the worst side effect is some possible disturbance in memory, but they are usually mild and it is not the autobiographical memories that are affected (in other words, things that happen directly to you as well as personal memories are not affected). Most people who undergo ECT suffer a mild disorientation and headache that go away quickly. Im not sure what side effects you are imagining that you would rather be dead. You may interact regularly with people who have had ECT- you would not be able to tell a difference.
Kat
Kat,
The side effects of ECT?
I always thought that Eddie Parkin was the result of too much ECT. I still think that is likely correct. Aside from his bizarre thought patterns, he always seemed to me to “twitch” when he got a little excited.
Both Eddie Parkin and that lady who seemed to enjoy attacking Mike when four or five ex-wives of some high-ranking members appeared on a TV news show hosted by Anderson Cooper. In addition to acting so strange, that program was just hilarious when you heard these women all parroting the same script.
“I know every inch of Mike Rinder’s body and I can assure you (twitch, twitch) … too funny. The monster cannot ever again appear in public together with a professional news person (like Anderson Cooper) because everyone is scared to tell him the truth – scared he will throw them in the hole). So all they can tell him just how “fabulous” everything he says and does. Then he comes across looking like a complete fool.
Maybe he also tried ECT at some point?
Kat,
I hear you, but its like this: I don’t know or care what the side effect would be. The idea, the very concept, of having ELECTRICITY applied to my brain, the my frontal lobes, fills me with dread and horror.
If I were in THAT bad a shape to need require that, I’d rather be physically dead.
Seriously.
I’m not afraid to die. I do not fear death. I have too much experience, early experience, of people dying suddenly, unexpectedly, to be afraid of it. While I don’t consciously think about it, its quite real for me that, for one reason or another, each day could be my last. And I’m quite healthy, by the way. Almost never sick. But I just know that its possible. I accept it, and I go out and do what I want and need to do, mostly. So, if today is my last day, at least my underwear matches and is clean :). I’m joking but not really. I don’t fear death. Now, I’m not trying to be some kind of female Clint Eastwood. On the other hand, my personal opinion (for me and my life) is that a body that needs TOO much attention and care is not worth having. iIts a bore.
Once I can’t DO things anymore to the degree that I feel I SHOULD (for my age) be able to do, and/or if my MIND starts to SERIOUSLY go, I don’t see ANY point in living anymore, that’s all. What for?
And btw I KNOW what its like to be depressed. When I lost the people I loved most, people who were everything to me, people whom I believed I could never, ever live without, I was depressed. I slept a lot. And I mean a LOT. I’d sleep for days on end. Dreaded getting out of bed. I didn’t drink, didn’t drug. I slept That was my only escape from acute pain and grief, at certain times, back when I was young. I was seriously depressed. I thought about killing myself. I didn’t have the nerve. At some point I realized that if I weren’t going to kill myself I’d have to make myself live, or – why bother?
Somehow I made it thru those losses to live and be busy and productive and genuinely happy again. Not fake happy – happy.
If I lost that – whatever it is – that got me thru those dark times – if I lost THAT – to the point that I’d need constant medication or electricity to my brain in order to not kill myself, I, personally, would see no point in living. Why? So I can breathe, and eat?
Not for me that artificial stuff. Whatever works for other people is fine and its not for me to judge.
Besides, I’m curious about what REALLY happens after we die. No one really KNOWS. I’m curious.
We’re ALL going to die someday. When the time is right, I’ll know, and I’m outta here. As I said, longevity can be overrated.
Aqua – If you haven’t noticed it yet, take a look at the reply I made to you at the top of the “L12” topic. 😉
Going there now, Richard 🙂
Neuron voltages have been measured to be 70 microvolts (0.070V).
ECT machines can apply 70-450 Volts which is 6,428 times the voltage of a single neuron. Although it is a good guess that the neurons in the human brain are likely connected in a series-parallel fashion, it is probably very likely that neurons will be destroyed with ECT since the circuit topology of the brain is not known.
It seems to be quite common in the human race to try anything supported only with anecdotal evidence which is not limited to scientology.
There is substantial literature outlining the side effects of ECT, including severe effects on memory and cognitive function. [1] This literature is frequently ignored by practitioners, mainly due to poor efficacy measurement standards (eg. the use of questionnaires that don’t assess for effects commonly associated with ECT) and a lack of long term follow-up studies. [2]
There have been only 4 long term studies in over 70 years of research and recent review data suggests no difference between ECT and placebo. [3]
Arguing with an ECT advocate is as frivolous as arguing with a scientologist, imho. Both will claim it “works” with no evidence beyond the anecdotal.
The cost/benefit ratio must be considered, however.
A scientologist arguably believes self-empowerment and spiritual elitism is worth a lifetime of illogic, mild dissociation and a $0.5 million price tag.
An ECT advocate (rarely one who has actually undergone treatment) believes the change in state is warranted (as a “greater good”), despite the harm caused.
Refs:
1. http://www.ectresources.org/#anchor_44
2. Kolar, D. (2017). Current status of electroconvulsive therapy for mood disorders: A clinical review. Evid Based Ment Health, 20(1), 12-14. doi: 10.1136/eb-2016-102498
3. J., & Arnold, C. (2017). Is Electroconvulsive therapy for depression more effective than placebo? Ethical Human Psychology and Psychiatry, 19, 5-23.
After 911, Scientology advanced the idea that bin Laden was programmed by PSYCHIATRY to attack America. It claimed, falsely, that Ayman al Zawahiri was a Psychiatrist who had masterminded the attacks through his psychiatric manipulation of a hapless Osama bin Laden. In fact, Zawahiri was a Pediatrician, and served as bin Laden’s second-in-command.
In essence, Scientology excused Radical Islamist ideology and falsely attributed the 911 carnage to Psychiatry, even going so far as to manufacture “evidence.”
In Scientology, facts and truth always take a backseat to the propagandistic “narrative” being peddled.
In the aggregate, these deliberate, self serving, and malicious lies are more suggestive of a deranged hate group than a tax-exempt religion.
Last time the APA was in San Francisco and the Psyentologists showed up, Anonymous ate them for lunch.
This morning I was on Amazon looking for books for 5 to 13 year olds. That’s what I put in the search. Boy was I surprised to see some by L Ron Hubbard!
He may be dead, but, he’ll still haunt you.
Would the cult get some commission money for the sale of these books?
Yes all LRH books are owned by COS (thru various COS companies… Mike or someone out there may be able to explain better than I). They are printed by Bridge Publications. So they most likely get almost every cent with Amazon only getting a small commission.
Thank you Linear13. The books were in a banner at the top and said sponsored. I’m not sure but I have purchased items that were sponsored and I think some of these came directly from whatever company was selling them. (aside from not wanting to give the cult any money they would also have your name, address, etc.) I do think you can sell through Amazon so that might be what’s going on with this. Just from my own experience, I would receive a commission directly from the seller, and the seller received the lion’s share. However, if it’s the cult offering this through Amazon you are most likely right that Amazon probably doesn’t get a big cut of the sale.
Thanks again 🙂
That’s infuriating!
Thankfully most 15yo’s would get one paragraph in and either laugh or roll their eyes, be done w/it and likely tweet all about it!
The question is. What is the difference between a good novel, and your basic typewriter font flatulence?
I think we are seeing an end of the COS. The money or monied interests are losing interest. I assume that the first selling off of precious real estate will be sloughed off as part of policy or some such made up flag order.
Most sane people look at Cruise as a maniac. Miscaviage is a monster. The brain drain by guys like Mike Rinder and the Headleys is really starting to expose the extreme cultish side of what was always a cult. Lots of fear and anger being portrayed everywhere.
What is weird is that Hubbard’s creation is supposed to be the most modern thing….and yet all of the policy is rooted in 1930’s through 1950’s technology. And it can’t be updated. Hubbard was a goof, not forward thinking and his sci-fi mind couldn’t comprehend what has happened. His communication equipment reminds of a futuristic movie I saw once. Everything looked really futuristic…..including a video phone…the problem? the phone was a rotary one.
But it is really great to see Mike with clear eyes and his head on right. A good man who was deep deep enthralled with a faulty premise. He was Stockholmed. And the internet is an embarrassing thing. Mike singing that god awful song with great glee……and his interview with a journalist when he defended with great vehemence that the RFP was a wonderful program. He must cringe every time he sees it
Sadly most who know much about the finances have expressed that there’s plenty of stockpiled cash to keep the scam going for some time. But thankfully the terrible mismanagement and PR have reigned in their ability to attract/keep much “new blood.” Sadly, they’re likely dipping into reserves because they’ve fleeced the existing flock into so much debt and BK they’re not able to raise funds the way they once could.
Just so sad to see the inaction, as it would be really nice to get hold of their resources to give even something back to the many they’ve pushed into poverty!
Perhaps the time will come for a Class Action.
Jennyfurr,
There have been several large lawsuits lately that have been settled out of court, and the upkeep for a cruise ship, all of the empty buildings, paying for a TV channel and the lifestyle that Miscavage has is a drain on the bottom line. It doesnt matter how much is in the bank, if the amount coming in is dwindling quickly. eventually the drain will need to be staved somehow, so I imagine we may see some real estate sales coming soon…
Kat
“.and yet all of the policy is rooted in 1930’s through 1950’s technology. And it can’t be updated. ”
Actually that is false. There is LRH Policy on how to get HCO policies updated (without Hubbard approval.) It is just that most people are too brainwashed to think that Hubtard could ever be wrong about anything.
Mike,
Thank you for again visiting this key component of the cults behavior. It is their mandatory and retaliatory fight against a non-existent enemy. I say non-existent because Psychiatry in the current day (twenty first century) is not the Psychiatry of 1950 that rejected Hubbard. Psychiatry has evolved and modernised whereas scientology has remained in the last century and will remain forever in the past.
Plus, the infamous Introspection Rundown would NEVER have been implemented had Hubbard taken his head out of his a** for one moment and done ANY historical research. The Quakers in the 1830’s ran a prison based on solitary confinement. Even Charles Dickens called it cruel and wrong. see: http://missioncreep.com/mw/estate.html. The literature was there for Hubbard to read but, no , Hubbard was so introverted into himself that outside influences were non-existent.
What percentage do you think was Hubbard just being insane making shit up that he believed…(like he really believed it!) and him knowing it was all BS so he could make money?
Same question applied to David Miscaviage when he took over the church and how about now?
I did not believe any of it at first…then I did (maybe 80% I believed). Now I do not believe any of it.
Corn-On-The COB started laughing right after he sent his wife to Arrowhead.
Sarita – When you say you didn’t believe at first but then started to, what were the things most impactful that took you from total disbelief to a place where you accepted much of it?
Was it the repetition? Or was it more peer pressure and hearing successes from others so regularly that it became something you accepted as having to be true?
Either way, congrats on getting to a place where it’s not something you feel torn on whether to believe, etc.
Sarita,
Thanks for the question.
My answer will be based on actual personal experience I gained through an ability to be completely honest with myself and confront truth.
Over many decades in the cult about 5% of what I learned was actually true. The rest of it was worthless nonsense. It just never proved to be true despite all my efforts to make it work. Hundreds and hundreds of hours in auditing and on courses resulted in nothing. But the times I applied the tech to myself on my own did result in substantial and lasting gains.
So it made no sense whatsoever to remain on the bridge to no where and I walked out.
If the ‘psychs’ come from Farsec and they run everything, are they not more ‘powerful’ than Lron? We should join them, not $cientology.
ECT has its uses. It if very good for some types of depression and other actual psychiatric diseases. Get over it, ECT works, The ‘psychs’ at San Fransisco will ignore or most likely not even see the CCHR clowns. The Clams will march down some street, perhaps not even near the convention, and hold up their banners and signs and every passer by will cringe and get out of their way. It won’t be difficult to keep away from 20 CCHR protesters.
It’s just a matter of time before the truth is revealed that Chiros did the heavy lifting for psychs on Farsec. And Farsecian ELECTRICIANS??? Think the guys who kept the Nazi gas chambers working.
Yes, Pain and Sex, Phase 2 will be coming out ANY day now. You think people enjoy oral sex? Farsecian dentists invented that to create tooth decay (yeah, like tootsie rolls and lollipops are some kind of ACCIDENT?)
Anyone behind Sterling is totally fucked … The RPF was a holiday compared to what’s waiting for these SPs who brought the chiros and dentists into the building…
🙂 Joe!
“he had discovered or researched or just made up The Introspection Rundown.”
You can skip the first two verbs.
I’m curious as to why dentists get attracted to the cult. I know that back problems are an occupational hazard. I had a very good dentist once, a tall guy with back pain, which he dealt with by going to – you guessed it – a chiropractor. I think I have my answer.
Bixntram,
Im pretty sure I know the lure for Chiropractors, but not sure about dentists. I have known multiple chiropractors through the years (several because we were forced to ‘fix’ their mistakes in the OR). They do not have the same rigor as medical school (a chiro can get their DC in three or four years without ever getting an undergraduate degree-usually only need 90 hours of undergrad work). Yet they are adamant that they be recognized as “Dr.” so and so. They also are continually trying to expand their scope of practice and being refused by the AMA. They cannot prescribe medications, and generally dont get the accolades associated with MDs. Hence, scientology feting and making the feel like big beings is a perfect fit.
Dont get me wrong, I have also known many Chiros who were great at what they did and stayed in their scope. They dont make outrageous claims like others Ive known (this is right up Hubbards lane as some have touted cures from every ill because the spine isnt in alignment. Scientifically, many of these claims are not valid, but they are made). Chiros have a purpose, I only have issues when they claim to be able to cure everything with an adjustment!
Not sure about dentists.
Kat
Chiros have subluxations, one of those made-up words that were popular in the snake-oil days just before the turn of the 20th century. Their first claim was to cure deafness in someone. Hoo boy, like to see that pass the UK advertising standards today.
Today they use clever little devices like toy electric jackhammers to punch around on the spine, Myovision devices (a handheld scanner designed to measure electric activity in skeletal muscles) to prove that you need their 4-week Silver Course (Hurry – 20% off this week only!), and all sorts of quasi-sciency “stuff” that looks really important, but that you would never see in a medical doctor’s office.
“Chiropractors have been criticised for trying to lure people into lengthy, costly and, importantly, unnecessary treatments. Chiropractic is of limited therapeutic value. It may help a little with lower back pain, but no more than pain killers and exercise. ” Never forget, it was snake oil to start, and snake oil it remains, just better disguised, and unfortunately now insurance pays for it, meaning my premiums go up becaue of a treatment I refuse to use, not so different from if they allowed payment for trepanning.
What chiro really excels at is providing a nice, though expensive, back rub. And who doesn’t like a nice back rub?
http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2012/04/myovision-scans-and-chiropractic.html
Respectfully disagree, Ammo. Pain is the body’s communication that something is wrong. Pain is your heads up that something needs to get handled. Its one of the body’s survival mechanisms, a signal. Dangerous to keep numbing the pain without at the same time finding and curing what’s causing it And spinal misalignment can cause all kinds of body problems after a while. Not ALL, now! I’m not saying that! But the spine IS the frame, the scaffolding, as it were, of the “building” that is the body.
It’s hard for me to believe that someone who loves money as much as the con man did would ever proclaim someone to be their “Number One Enemy” for any reason other than they interferred with the scam from making money.
The con man certainly had a petulant child-like personality (well “sociopath” would be more accurate). But if he declared psychiatry to be his “Number One Enemy” just for calling him a quack and an idiot, surely he would have declared millions of people as his enemy.
I can’t help but think there was a more money-related issue at work with psychiatry. Is it possible that he tried to get people to join his cult and they told him they had no interest because they got all the help they needed from Psychiatry? That would seem to be a much more sensible reason.
But I’ve never really understood this outcome. Would anyone have a better explanation?
Skyler said:
“But if he declared psychiatry to be his “Number One Enemy” just for calling him a quack and an idiot, surely he would have declared millions of people as his enemy.”
HE DIDN’T declare millions as his enemy? What about all the psychs and shrinks and anyone CONNECTED to them?
Then there was the poor shopkeeper who ran out of a favored confection; declared so NO scientologist would buy what he was selling. If that’s not arbitrary and capricious, if not downright spiteful, I don’t know what is….
He SO loved his SIMPLE solutions to all his problems; so simple that they didn’t work. Ever. No matter what the penalty was for failing to make his “solution” “work”, somehow.
Skyler,
It most likely had something to do with ego instead of cash (although if he had gotten acceptance, it would have legitimized his works and given it an instant push to be able to sell it- Im pretty sure there was a cash grabbing scam that would have followed acceptance- like selling textbooks to schools, opening approved clinics etc. etc.) He saw himself as a equal to medical doctors and psychiatrists and threw a temper tantrum. His ego could NOT take someone in authority telling him he wasn’t brilliant, and in fact, was pushing an idiotic theory. That sting to his ego could not go unpunished. In his mind, I am sure he saw it as a huge insult. He held grudges, and the hatred was commiserate with the authority of the group dissing him. Hence the ‘enemy of the world’ narrative.
Kat
Planet Farsec is a new one on me. One can’t help but be impressed that psychiatrists once had their own planet. Meanwhile here on Earth, the COS can only flounder in their less than impressive ideal orgs. Well, Sea Org staff still have close to a billion years left on their contracts to clear the planet. Let’s all start holding our breaths for that now.
I still say he’s hanging out on Target 2.
OSD-
Im pretty sure he is actually a Walmartian. Pretty sure I saw him there in drag the other day. Target is to classy for him.
ROTFLMFAO!!! Now THAT’S some funny shit! Well done!
?
$cientology is the epitome of, “Don’t confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up.”