Leah had a wonderful idea.
We are going to do an episode of the Fair Game Podcast where we respond to listeners questions.
There have already been a number of them here, on the website and social media, but if you have a question you would like us to answer, please include it in the comments.
We will try to get to as many of them as we can.
QUESTION FOR MIKE AND LEAH: If you were magically made leaders of Scientology tomorrow, what would you do? Would you enact reforms to save Scientology? Would you liquidate the assets and divide the money among the parishioners?
Shut down the organization, sell off the buildings, return funds to everyone and anything left over create a philanthropic fund which would allocate money to worthy causes. Turn over all books and materials of Hubbard to libraries and even create some readings rooms so anyone who wants to study and practice it can do so for free and without restriction.
Great thoughts! Thank you!
QUESTION FOR MIKE AND LEAH: What is the appeal of David Miscavige to members of the Church Of Scientology? David seems like an evil tyrant — he even looks like an evil tyrant! Membership is declining. There are horror stories of abuse. Miscavige doesn’t seem to be a successful leader, yet his position as leader of the Church seems secure. I only have an outsider’s perspective. What do members of the Church see in David Miscavige that makes him appealing as a leader?
Hi Leah and Mike,
I am obssessed with your blog since I have lived in Largo my entire life and have seen Scientology infiltrate my beautiful city of Clearwater. I used to shop downtown on Saturdays with my mother at Maas Brothers and walk up and down Cleveland St. It is such an injustice that they have been allow to such the life out of such a wonderful tourist destination. I have had many run ins with the church ie: I delivered flowers for a local florist (Open Air on Myrtle) and she occasionally had Scientology orders, I told her I did not want to deliver there since they are so hard to get someone to accept them. This one last time I did try and it was Mother’s day. The building was the one just north of the Flag building and door is locked. I knocked until I got a guard to answer, when he did he said what do you want as I am holding a huge bouquet of flowers, I said someone is a mother and theses are for her. He fingered all the flowers then asked if there was a bomb in there, I told him take the damn flowers. Next I had a children’s birthday party company and they were having a huge house party on Easter Sunday. The grandmother of the family fell down and was hurt and immediately they told me to turn off the machine that silence must prevail (that’s when I knew they were Scientologists) great big house in Belleair (walking distance to Flag). Another incident was I drive for Uber and wanted to push the buttons on Scientology and pulled into the same lot I had delivered flowers to another year.. I was confronted with a guard with a gun on and he banged on my car window and told me I was sitting on private property and told me to leave, I told him I’ll leave when I damn well feel like it and that I was just texting. One Saturday I saw 4 young teens in the park where you filmed where the Checker’s was and is now a Scientology park and they were in the hot sun and digging at the grass with their bare hands like rakes. Today August 18, 2022 I was parked facing the Flog building and they must be having a recuiting session since lots of activiy is going on with plain clothes people coming in and out with badges and books. One lady came up to my parked car probably because I had a sign in the front windshield that says CULT SCIENTOLOGY! and she acted like she wanted to see how to pay for parking and looked right at my meter only when there were at least 5 others past me. I rolled down the window and asked her why she would have to pay to park doesn’t Scientology pay for your parking? Then I asked her if she wanted to sit in my car with me and listern to you and Mike Rinder’s Podcast “Fair Game” that I am binge listening to. She wasn’t interested. I told her “You know you are in a Cult and I have lived he my entire life I ought to know” She said I must be a DEMOCRAT???!!!! What does that have to do with Scientology and me saying it is a cult other than Trump is a Republican and he has his own personal cult.. She then said God Bless and I told her she knows nothing of a God since Scientology is not a church nor a religion. She then proceeded to go back up the Franklin St. stairs back into the Flag building to probably report me even though I was on a public street. I left but I will be back!!!
“You must be a Democrat” — OMG!!!
Would you ever go to Tom Cruise premiere and confront him or try to crash an interview in real time to catch him off guard?
Question: for a possible future Q & A podcast:
L. Ron Hubbard is suppose to return in a new body 21 years after he died. He is apparently “late.”
My question is this – wouldn’t he be born into the body of a baby? And then need to grow into an adult (18+ additional years). And after that how would he convince anyone that he is indeed L. Ron Hubbard? Would David Miscavidge be willing to turn over power and leadership to this person claiming to be the reincarnated L. Ron Hubbard? I believe there are some top secret question only the real Ron would know but would that be enough?
Hey Leah,
After watching and listening to all of the aftermath and podcasts, I finally got to read your book! You seem very cordial with your experiences then compared to your absolutely justifiable outrage with scientology now. Do you ever think about writing another ? Or do you wish you were harsher on the organization initially? Did your book help you find the tone of your mission or was it what helped to give life to it? On a side note, I’m very proud of you and Mike both for over coming such an all encompassing force over you. I could only hope to be so bold and brave.
So this may be a very obscure question, but is “$cientology – The Strange Case Of Steven Fishman” an accurate representation of events that occurred in Scientology or a scheme to get out of legal trouble? The video under that title has been on YouTube for quite a few years and it’s fascinating…and crazy. The only reason I even found out about it was because my sister ran across it during a psychology class. Would love to hear an insider’s perspective on his story and his claims. Thank you guys for all your insight.
Hi Leah and David,
I’m from the UK and I used to think Scientology was just weird. I’m from the UK and would like to know how I can help?
Kind Regards,
Asma Fayaz
Does David miscavidge get audited? What OT level is he at? Does he actually practise Scientology?
I am also curious about whether or not David Miscavige is audited. Also, do you think he really believes in Scientology or does he just believe in the money and power?
Hi David and Leah,
MY Q: Do you think someone could successfully join Scientology and go undercover to capture on camera, some of the abuses going inside?
Hi Sandon,
The only good way to do that would be if you brought along 2 or 3 irons to iron out some of the problems you may find.
Much Love,
David
This would be an interesting question to discuss:
Let’s say an OT VIII came to the realization in his/her perfect mind that COB was not who he says he is but really Xenu who had escaped his dungeon and had gone on a mission to destroy all that LRH had done. Given the knowledge that anything is permissible to help the most people/dynamics, he/she decides that the world, as a whole, would be much better off without this person here so they “remove” Xenu from the world to protect all people. Now, would the “church” want this person to be handled by a committee of members as the contract says or would they want normal law enforcement to take care of the issue. Remember, they are OT VIII in good standing with the “church.”
There was a Scientology TV commercial during the Super Bowl. What do y’all know about Scientology TV? Does anyone actually watch it?
I have noticed that alot of actors are scientologists. Do you think being a scientologist helps some actors to get roles? They seem to have spys everywhere including the government, so I was wondering if they got some “extra” help getting some of their parts?
Recently a famous singer Diego Verdaguer died, it is said that he and his wife are part of scientology. But he had a service at a scientology on one day and the next day his wife, Amanda Miguel (famous singer too) took his ashes to the Mexican Basilica de Guadalupe and had a service and left half of his ashes there. How is it possible that Scientology let them go about this? It is always said that they don’t let their members believe in different religions.
For Leah: watching Elisabeth Moss on The Handmaid’s Tale, I’m struck by the palpable irony. When you were on KofQ or even your birth storyline on Friends (which wasn’t silent), did you ever have a scene or storyline that gave you pause because it was something so normal but that you couldn’t actually do because of Scientology?
How often have either of you encountered someone going “Type III” and how often do you think it happens in the Church? In her book, Janet Reitman’s sources say that it’s a relatively common occurrence for people to go Type III because of the ‘Tech’.
Sorry I don’t mean to flood this message board, I’ve just got so may questions. Thanks for doing what you’re doing!
In the 2007 edition of Dianetics on pages 178-179 LRH says:
“Punishment actually and literally and emphatically does no good of any kind whatsoever, but accomplishes quite the reverse…” and “…punishments are, at best, locks…”.
With punishments being handed out all of the time by the Church to SPs and current members (in the form of the RPF, perpetually isolating Sea Org members who refuse the COVID vaccine, Miscavige beating the shit out of CoS executives, overboarding, SO members being made to clean a floor with a toothbrush, etc) how are these punishments justified or rationalized against LRH’s above statement?
Also, can you clarify the difference between a Key-In and a Lock?
And one last question: I’m trying to read Dianetics right now and I can’t help but notice how unnecessarily repetitive it is. The same information is stated over and over again, and there are far too many examples provided. Is everything he wrote like this, and is it an intentional decision?
About 3 years ago, a Scientology center went up in an abandoned strip center a few miles away from my house (central Austin, TX). I never see very many cars in the parking lot, but they are there. What would happen if I walked in? (logistically and tactically). I’m VERY curious, but obviously don’t want to give them any reason to know who I am, where I live, what I do, etc. Thanks!
A few questions:
– Have you heard of LRH 2.0 (Justin Craig), and if so what are your thoughts on him and his books? I read that he issued an Ethics order to Ann Arrow, VP at Bridge Publications (haha)!
– What is the state of scientology in Canada? I get the impression that it’s on it’s last legs (they’ve abandoned their recently purchased their Mono, Ontario property, and their flagship Toronto building has been boarded up for years)
– Is there specific scripture that states that some scientology organizations or tools should use names that lead wogs to believe it’s a legitimate enterprise/or tool? For example the Oxford Capacity Analysis (some might assume that it was developed at Oxford University), or Narcanon (which sounds a lot like Narcotics Anonymous).
– I’ve read accounts of former scientologists who talk about the positive or effective things that they learned as scientologists. Do you believe that there are any valuable things that you learned that you still apply in your life and if so what are they?
Is scientology aware of the DC Comics character known as L-Ron H-bb-rd? Was there ever any push back on the comic book company by scientology?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-Ron
Were you and Leah aware of this when inside Scientology?
Hi Mike & Leah –
I have a family member who is a prominent member of Scientology (since the early 70’s to my understanding) in LA. We’ve only been able to see them for funerals but we all worry a lot and we just wish there were something we could do to help get them escape. I won’t get into it, but my mom and I have picked up on the sense that they’re unhappy, at least during the very brief reunions we have had together when a family member dies and we can spend time with them for a day. Because of my connection to this family member, I have delved pretty deeply into learning about Scientology as I need to understand as much as I can and maybe one day be able to assist. Your show and podcast have been a wealth of information which also allowed me to warn my other family members that ‘the church’, in all likelihood is screening their calls/correspondence so we don’t reach out directly about offering assistance for fear they could be cut off from us completely. With that said – since their calls/correspondence is being screened (we just received an unsealed Xmas card from them which confirms such) is there ANYTHING we can do to help?
Any advice is much appreciated as we all miss them and wish we could do something.
Thank you!
Hi, I’m curious if you and Leah know about the (mostly negative) attention scientology is getting on tik tok?
One guy actually went inside & recorded a bunch of stuff with a secret camera. Someone even got a video of what is apparently the sea org ship. There are also a bunch of teenagers going into the church for “fun”.
While part of me thinks these tik toks might help in exposing the “church”, it also makes it seem less serious.
Why has scientology only spread to specific countries? Or has it made its way to countries in Asia and the Middle east?
Only Japan and Taiwan in Asia and Israel in the Middle East.
All 3 re heavily influenced bby US culture. I think that may have something to do with it. Muslim countries are not fertile ground generally. Mainland China banned it. Too many Asian countries have poor economic conditions to support a pay-as-you-go cult
I understand LRH seemed like he intended to create a religion to make money and have control over a group with some bad intentions, but it sounds like a lot of his policies and rules were geared toward having the people he controlled follow his own misguided ideas on ethical, moral, correct and proper behavior.
Do you think the folks who took over Scientology made it even worse and more corrupt than LRH actually intended, or is it just as bad before and after LRH discarded his body?
Is the Miscavige administration substantially worse than the LRH administration in terms of the abuse and wrongdoing?
I read somewhere that scientology and Islam are connected. Being a muslim myself, I see no connections. Could you explain this please?
NO connection to Islam. But to Nation of Islam. Search blog posts here and you will find plenty.
I have a question about the billion year contract. Sea Org members are supposed to be able to do any job because they can recall the skill from previous lives…correct? Then how is it they didn’t sign a billion year contract in their previous life and have to do it now?
This one is for Leah:
I read in your book that Tom Cruise wanted to play Hide and Seek in his mansion, and you asked Angelo to play for you. Did he actually end up playing hide and seek with Tom Cruise? Did he win? How did Cruise React when he found out it wasn’t you seeking? Does he actually run around like a child in his house?
I have a question:
Back when I was a Scientologist, they would make me use this cream before auditing that had this awful (metallic?) smell to it. They claim it was unscented but I still have PTSD moments when it is all I can smell sometimes. This was at the Toronto Org. Do they use the same awful cream at all orgs, and what is in those creams??
(Question for the podcast). History is replete with those who have broken away from their “mother church” to start reformed churches of their spiritual faith. The best example is Protestant Christianity, which was the end result of Martin Luther and others breaking from the Catholic Church due to corruption and abuse of power. Lesser known are the Conversos of Spain, who for generations practiced Judaism disguised as Christianity to avoid persecution. I’m wondering if something like that might be happening underground with those Scientologists who still believe in “the tech,” and may be even in Hubbard, but who are not Ok with the Church abuses, and/or fear the litigious harassment of the OSA?
I’ve just binged your 50+ episodes and I’m so sad to be caught up! I have two questions.
1. What is the thinking around forcing abortions among sea org members? I would think they would want to increase the number of scientologists and this would increase said number?
2. David Miscavige seems to be a relatively small guy… I’m sure he is intimidating in theory but isn’t it difficult for some of these larger guys to be physically assaulted by someone they could easily knock out?
Love you both, love what you do, and Leah you are my BFF!
I have a question for Leah. In many of your podcast episodes, you both talk about how Scientology doesn’t view children as kids but as grownups in little bodies. You have also talked at length about how parents often don’t have close relationships with their children because much of the parents’ time and energy is taken up with Scientology. Did Leah feel pressured to parent in the Scientology way or was she able to parent as she chose?
I love your show and podcast! I’m wondering what you think would happen if an actor who is an active Scientologist gets cast in a movie or show with an actor who is an SP or PTS? I’m guessing it depends on how big the actor amd project are?
Hi Mikey and “Le-Le”, so much respect for what you are doing, I have a pretty specific question that I would love answered.
Niacin is brought up several times as kind of a “cure all” by Hubbard which cleanses the body of toxins in things like the purif and his trademark Dianazene. Is there any regulation on say, diabetics or people with compromised livers taking these vitamins as dictated by LRH? I see a potential lawsuit he would need to put out, as large doses of niacin can react with anti-diabetes medications and eventually cause liver damage.
Sorry if this has been asked. Thank you so much!
Mike, how did you get out of Scientology?
Somewhere along the line, I have heard more than once, that Sea Org members can read minds. Is this true?
Yes. It is true. But they cannot do it all the time. They can only succeed in reading minds about half the time. But most anyone can do that just by guessing they are thinking, “Please help me get the fuck out of here!!”.
After all, that is what most people being audited are thinking.
An easier question would be about super powers – especially flying. Can Sea Org members actually fly?
This is a much easier question to answer since so many of them kill themselves by jumping out of a window and flying into the ground. We know they do this because they are so desperate to put an end to their suffering in the Sea Org.
Much love,
Karen Deplessis
I was curious about the process for the “We Stand Tall” Music Video I saw in the Going Clear documentary.
How did that happen? Was that written and produced within the Sea Org? Given the tight control of the organization, I imagine it was well received within Scientology?
What other prominent Sea Org members are in the video other than Miscavige, Marty Rathbun, and our dapper Mike? How long did that take to record?
It was some idea Miscavige had and I think Peter Schless had originally composed the song and David Pomerantz sang it for the IAS or something. Then Miscavige decided to shoot a video with “Int” — there are a lot of people in it. Ray Mithoff. Heber Jentzsch. Marc Yager. Shelly Miscavige. Norman Starkey. Mark Ingber. Guillaume Lesevre.
It was shot in the main recording studio at Gold. Everything about it from composing to playing the music to shooting and editing the video was done in house at Gold.
And yes, it was very popular within the bubble.
As a super fan of both Leah and Mike I am so impressed with their ability to cut themselves free from the cult of scientology as well to bring so much support to others in their attempts to free themselves. Further, to their dedication to expose the numerous dis-functions that surround this organization and be a support for others to extricate themselves going forward.
My question is this….. Who was the first person to complete the OT levels and learn the science fiction weirdness of LRH? What was that persons response to learning the story? Further, how many people have actually completed the OT levels OR how many people have read this story and continue to hang on to the fantasy that this is a religion?
Do you think David Miscavige will ever face justice (like Keith Raniere)?
Given the extraordinary amount of money Scientology seems to have – and is at stake……what is to prevent some enterprising con man from investing a lot of time and effort into reading and learning all he can about LRH, concocting a bizarre story (to anyone except a Scientologist) about where he’s been and why he’s late – and showing up at their headquarters and claiming, “It’s me! LRH. I’m back!”…? Since Scientology is all bullshit anyway – how could the current leaders of Scientology prove he isn’t who he claims to be? Or disprove his story? It seems like people would be trying this all the time – and if so – how does Scientology handle this?
Hey Matt.
It’s just my guess. But the single most important factor involved in the cult today is the character of THE TWERP (DM). I would guess that he would almost immediately arrange for the con man to be disappeared much like Shelley was disappeared. That would happen so fast, it would make your head spin.
Of course, this is just my opinion. Other people may have very different opinions.
My question is for Leah. I am wondering how you went about having the conversation to leave Scientology with your husband, mother, and sister. As I have learned watching your show and listening to the podcast, there is a fear that if you were to express your doubts or disbelief in Scientology, that they would basically “tell on you” and you would be written up…or worse. I’m just curious if that happened or what really went down and how you got them to see your side of things and then ultimately leave with you.
Loved the show and I am now loving the podcast and everything you are both doing to expose Scientology!
So, I’ve had a question for sometime about how SPs are handled within the entertainment industry. This is the one thought that I can’t seem to get out of my head and I’m hoping you or even Leah can give an answer for this.
Obviously Tom Cruise has more sway with directors than say Leah, so I’ll pose this with Leah as an example, or even just a smaller bit actor from say…. My Name is Earl.
If one of the many actors from My Name who is an active scientologist was cast in a new show with another actress/actor who has been labeled an SP by the church, what would the outcome of this be? Would they be forced by the church to drop the show, would they carry on like business as usual and just not speak to this person outside of recording, etc?
I assume an active cult member who is a director wouldn’t cast Leah, because that I assume would be heretical in the eyes of the church, but say Kevin James was labeled an SP during S4 of King of Queens, what would the cult demand of Leah in that scenario.
Sorry this is long winded and basically asks the same question a few times, but this is the one thing I have wondered since before The Aftermath aired and I’ve gotta know what would happen behind the scenes to try and oust the SP or remove them from set.
I cannot be the first person to ask this question, but… Can someone please tell me how it’s possible that Elizabeth Moss doesn’t see the parallel between Scientology and The Handmaid’s Tale? Also, since we know that the membership number are far lower than “the church” would have you believe, how is it possible that they have brainwashed such high profile people (Tom Cruise, John Travolta, Giovanni Ribisi, etc.). AND… how is it possible that the NY Times hasn’t done and expose on this cult yet?
That’s a question for Elisabeth and why Yashar made such a point about the responsibility of the media to ask these celebrities the tough questions.
Hello Jennifer – There are many reasons why this kind of strange circumstance exists for many celebrities.
One reason is the “Prison of Belief”. Many people have written about this. I will just try to briefly paraphrase. It means the mental prison is often stronger than the physical prison. The prisoners of this cult often believe things the rest of the world think are just crazy.
The leaders of cults have experimented and refined their techniques over many years. They’ve found ways to enslave people in what Mike has often called “The Bubble”. When people spend all their time in the company of other cult members and almost never talk to other people who are outside the bubble (meaning they are outside of the cult), their beliefs are often strongly enforced to the point where they believe all kinds of crazy things that you and I would never believe.
To read more about these things , you can search the Net for things like “love bombing”, “prison of belief”, “cults and living in a bubble”. You can also read any of the books listed on Mike’s front page under the heading, “Important Reading”.
Good luck.
Hi Mike! I absolutely love how you and Leah, as well as those before and after you both, have made it a mission to expose Scientology for what it is and truly believe you have all saved lives by doing so.
In listening to your podcast episode on which you had John Sweeney, there was a clip play of verbal assaults on you by your ex-wife as well as other Scientologists. This raised a rather odd question for me. Has a parent who remained in Scientology ever tried to file for child support from the parent who left? Usually child support goes along with visitation of the children. I wondered how that was navigated – if ever. I guess it would be getting the government involved too closely with Scientology at that point?
It’s a strange question, but dealing with child support orders in my line of work is a daily task, and I just happened to think about it during that episode.
I will wrap this up by saying you and Leah are amazing. Period.
I’ve been so fascinated by Scientology since I discovered your A&E Aftermath series. It’s like a bad car accident…I can’t look away. My question is…are there explanations/theories about what in LRH’s psyche and/or upbringing that led him to create this nonsensical “religion”? He apparently was a military “brat” (as was I) but–in my experience–the exposure to other cultures leads to an open-mindedness and an appreciation for diversity.
Read Russell Miller’s excellent unauthorized biography Bare-faced Messiah
I’m guessing you were really looking for a more simple answer to your question. It would be so much easier just to answer, “YES” or “NO” and give some reference to that.
I’m pretty sure you were not looking to be told to read some entire book. That would take several hours and I really don’t think it was very responsible for anyone to tell you to read a whole book to answer a brief question.
Moocho LoveOh to you.
Has anyone ever challenged the policy where if you leave the Sea Org you have to repay all the money (that was spent on you during your time in the Org?) that I think is called a “freeloaders debt”? I can’t imagine that the billion year Sea Org contract would be considered legally binding in any court in the world, much less the US. Has anyone left the Sea Org and refused to pay it? Did Scientology take them to court? If so what was the outcome. If no one has ever challenged it, I think someone should do that it can (hopefully) set the precedent that people are not legally obligated to pay back this “debt” so that other Sea Org members won’t stay in because they think they would have to pay this debt if they try to leave.
Mike, when you left, did they try to make you pay it?
Love your podcast and former show, so much respect for you both, keep fighting the good fight!
Freeloader debts are not legally enforceable. Nobody has ever tried to use legal means to collect them. They know they’re not legal.
How do Scientologists (Sea Org/Full time) address music? Are you allowed to listen to all music or is there censorship? For example, the Beatles first opened my mind as a teenager and how that might also affect a Scientologist. What was your and Leah’s favorite band or artist while in Scientology and after leaving. I admire and appreciate you two, keep changing lives and history.
Hello CarriefromCalifornia – Many of the songs pumped into the cult’s facilities and that appear on the approved music list are songs that make the prisoners of the cult feel that cults and prisons are good and enjoyable. These include:
Johnny Cash, “Folsom Prison Blues”
The Clash, “I Fought the Law and the Law Won”
Creed, “My Own Prison”
Elvis Presley, “Jailhouse Rock”
The Clash, “Jail Guitar Doors”
Warren Zevon, “Prison Grove”
Tom Waits, “Fish in the Jailhouse”
Soundgarden, “Rusty Cage”
Suicidal Tendencies, “Institutionalized”
Sam Cooke, “Chain Gang”
James Brown, “Prisoner of Love”
Merle Haggard, “Life in Prison”
P.S. I’m just joking. Just trying to be funny. These are serious times for the cults. So many of the crooks who lead them and who abuse innocent victims are about to go on trial and hopefully will be sentenced to long prison terms. So, I thought people could use a little humor.
I have watched all the seasons of the show and just started listening to the Podcast. My heart goes out to anyone who has suffered under this organization’s control. I just listened to your podcast and should explain that I am a Libertarian and voted for Trump because the policies he promotes are aligned to my values (small government, pro-life). I was disappointed that your guest Kate Bornstein suggested that because I voted for Trump then I belong to a cult. Very insulting, small minded, and shows that she doesn’t really know many Trump voters. I will keep listening, watching, and supporting your efforts to expose the truth about Scientology.
I guess I am confused on why Marty Rathbun would go back to Scientology.. I was just reading his blog and the things he’s saying.. how could he think that anyone would believe him after all this time. All the negative (true) things he has said about the church of Scientology. He did interviews documentaries writing on the fair gaming of Scientology. It’s disappointing that he would return! I pray for him and many others! I mean he got out, it just blows my mind that he would go back.
Hi Mike and Leah! I’ve noticed that most of the ex-Scientologists who I’ve heard speak out were either members during LRH’s time, or second-generation Scientologists who were raised in it.
So my question is, what about the people who don’t fit those categories? The ones who came in more recently on their own, without being brought into it by friends or family? What percentage of the membership do they make up? And since the truth about abuse in the church is so widely known and easy to access now, what is even attracting new people to it?
Thanks so much for everything you do!
Hello Erika. I am one of those people who don’t fit into those categories.
I ran into a very old friend who I hadn’t seen for many years and she asked me if I could help her out with a sort of “project” she was working on. Next thing I knew, I was taking their phony baloney personality test and three days later, when I met some of the other people in the cult, I said goodbye and never looked back. I was very lucky because I had heard a few things about this cult before I took that test and I had a very deep suspicion that it was a terrible scam and something that people who get tricked into engaging with these people should just run away as fast as their legs could carry them.
I suppose this is a lightweight question compared to most, but I am very curious. I read that the reason Kirstie Alley is the only Cheers actor who did not appear on Frasier is that she didn’t want to appear on a psychiatry-focused show. It made me wonder if Leah had any qualms about doing the King of Queens psychiatry-focused episodes such as the one where William Hurt plays Arthur’s psychiatrist and the one where Carrie garners favors from Doug’s therapist.
Do you think David M. has any contact with Shelly? If not does he have relationships with other women? What would a relationship with other women look like– is it a forced relationship??
It has been stated that Sea Org members and other staff of Scientology work many hours a day 365 days a year. I was wondering if you could elaborate on what the work consists of? It seems like the number of parishioners has been declining so what could these people possibly be doing for so many hours a day? Please give a glimpse of the typical day of a sea org member and other staff members.
I just finished the book “Ruthless”, David’s father’s book about his son. In it he describes the unhuman amount of stress and work that is required to support the fake “events” that try to make Scientology appear to be accomplishing something. That occurs about 7 times a year and accounts for alot of the work required. It’s a good and fair read.
I’ve been following the “Scientology: Fair Game” podcast from episode one. There have been several mentions of the “E-meter.” A friend and former co-worker told me about going to a Scientology center and undergoing some preliminary testing or something. It involved holding two ends of something connected to a machine. These must have been the electrodes of the E-meter. I suppose it measures skin conductivity, one of the functions of a polygraph “lie detector.”
He was instructed to read a text. While he was reading, a monitor (auditor?) would interrupt him and ask what word he had just read. He was then instructed to look up the meaning of that word. I suspect that the dictionary/glossary he was to use was one specially prepared by Scientology and that the words were likely used in an unusual context and specifically defined with a particular meaning in Scientology.
There have been various terms mentioned in the podcast which Scientology uses like “acceptable truth” which have special meaning within the cult. In communist thought, the word “revolution” has a specific meaning. The American Revolution in that sense was not a “revolution.” It was, instead, a war for independence as “revolution” within Marxist/Leninist ideology means specifically “the overthrow of the capitalist bourgeoisie by the proletariat.” It seems that this same kind of linguistic manipulation is one of the myriad of tools used by Scientology, and other extreme religious sects or political movements, to inculcate their adherents.
I’d like to hear your thoughts on this at your next Q&A episode.
NB – The friend mentioned did not get sucked in. He thought it was crap.
Regarding Marty RATHBUN. A previous podcast said he’s reversed. Im watching a documentary with him on abuses by Scientology. How is he recanting his claims now that he’s been pulled back in?
I know this is an old post of something that’s past but if you do another Q&A, I’m hoping you might see this.
So far I’ve watched 2 seasons of your show and I want to start listening to the podcast but there’s one thing I’m confused about.
Why do some people join the Sea Org and others are just regular scientologists? Leah, how did you leave the Sea Org as you became an actress, particularly with the billion year contract? I know on the show you talked about some kids going to boarding schools while others joined the Sea Org. Would a big celebrity’s kid go live in the dorms or on a boat in the Sea Org or should they have something else? I’m just trying to understand how you find your role and how much they can change if they do.
Thank you!
I think the ideal drinking game, when listening to the Fairgame podcast, is called “Right Mike?!”
Any time Leah says “Right Mike” or a variation “Mike, isn’t that right?” – take a drink. Careful not to get alcohol poisoning
I see very few people of color involved in scientology. While I’m sure there must be some non-white members, I certainly haven’t noticed many in the people you’ve interviewed not just in the podcast but in any of your shows
Is there an underlying racism issue in scientology?
Do you think Scientology will “fizzle out”? Are they recruiting enough new members to sustain them long term? Who would possibly join Scientology now that all of the information is out there? I know it would take a long time, but could Scientology just self-implode? Thank you. Love everything you’re doing.
I am so angry about Scientology’s tax exempt status. It makes no sense that they got it in the first place, but it’s even more incredible that they’ve been able to hang onto it for so long in the face all of all of the evidence about their wrongdoings.
Do they have to provide evidence annually to the IRS to keep this status? If so, what do they provide? Are they actually involved seriously in humanitarian efforts?
Why does the government not go after this cult? Do you think it’s possible they have something on the government?
Thanks!
Generally all exempt organizations must file an annual tax return unless they meet one of the exceptions listed here: https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/annual-exempt-organization-return-who-must-file
As you can see most of the exceptions are related to churches.
Unlike other charities, IRS has restrictions that limit auditing churches. See: https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/churches-religious-organizations/special-rules-limiting-irs-authority-to-audit-a-church
It seems that once they passed the 5 years and received the final determination letter for their exemption, that it became that much harder to challenge the IRS determination.
I am just now reading Leah’s book and I am wondering if there is anything that she wrote in the book that she would amend now, or anything that she wishes she had included that she didn’t? I’m enjoying the book and think Leah is such an original! Love her (and you too, Mike)! God bless you both for the good you are doing and the personal sacrifices you are making for the benefit of others.
What do scientologist members do if they’re suffering from post partum depression? Traditional treatment seems to help these women but clearly scientology rejects these treatments. Do scientologist mothers just suffer in silence?
They are supposed to hand over money to scientology to give them auditing to solved any problems in life, including post partum depression.
I am having difficulty reconciling something. On the Aftermath episode with Liz Gale, she mentioned that part of the Scientology belief is that a baby in utero can be imprinted on by the actions of the mother. I think it was called being reactive or something of the sort. However, the “church“ forces Sea Org members to have abortions. In the eyes of the “church” and based on the belief that a fetus can be imprinted on, is a forced abortion considered murder or not? What is the stance on this and how do they reconcile it?
Leah & Mike –
Would you ever do an episode of the podcast about NXIVM and its commonalities with Scientology? Any interest in having a NXIVM victim/survior as a guest on the podcast?
After binge-watching every episode of “The Vow” last night, there are clearly A LOT of similarities between NXIVM and Scientology. I can’t be the only listener who’d be very interested in your reactions/insights on this.
Thanks!
YEs, absolutely. Next episode is with Mark Vicente.
Fantastic! Looking forward to it.
Thanks for responding Mike!
👍🏻
Dear Mike and Leah,
Has Miscavige completed the bridge (OT8)? Also, who audits him?
My question is regarding David Miscavige…how did he become the head if scientology?
Did he just assume the position or was he chosen by L Ron Hubbard? I’ve read where one of L Ron Hubbard’s daughter is still an active member in scientology…seems the obvious transfer would be to her or one of his other children at the time of his death.
Curious if it’s known if Hubbard put anything into writing as to who would inherit his estate or take over after his death or until his “return” to earth? ← Little sarcasm there =)
I didn’t read through all of the questions, so please forgive me if this was already asked. How many people are/have been “missing/unaccounted for”. Have any of them been located? Have any of them been released? Is there any group or lawyer working on this that people can donate to? Any update on Shelly?
Thank you!
I was listening to the podcast today, and it was said that there’s no retirement fund for Sea Org members. What happens to them when they’re too old to work? They can’t have any significant savings to live off of, but they certainly can no longer pull the insane hours.
How does the Sea Org deal with elderly members?
Jonathon asked about the fate of Sea Org members when they become too old to work 15 hours a day (or longer).
I was grousing about that for a few day a while ago. As far as I know there is no retirement plan and both Tubby and TED (The Evil Dwarf) may have figured that as they grew old, they would just die quietly somewhere from the stress of being forced to work 15 hours a day. I always suspected they would be housed in some place that would be little better than The Hole and would be expected to just do the best they could with what they had.
I have also always suspected this posed a terrible potential human disaster/tragedy and that one day the world may learn of a large space full of dead and dying elderly Sea Org members. Think of the Nazi concentration camps. I have no reason to claim these people would be treated as badly as that. But I have always anticipated the health authorities would one day have to break down some doors and would find a large number of elderly people dead and dying – suffering from the diseases of proximity and filth like dysentery, cholera, tuberculosis, whooping cough, influenza, etc. Please forgive me if I am wrong about some of these disease being caused by proximity.
My concern is that when you dump a large number of elderly people in a room without sufficient care (medical care or otherwise) or cleanliness or other basics that people need to live healthy, you are inviting a terrible disaster – maybe even akin to Jonestown.
For people who scoff at this and say there is no reason to suspect we will see another Jonestown, I would suggest you just ask yourself the following question:
“Given all the human abuses this scam has demonstrated in the past and the lack of care or concern they have demonstrated for their members, what reason would anyone have to suspect that kind of treatment would not follow Sea Org members unto their final years?
If and when such a disaster does befall the elderly Sea Org members, I just hope it will mean the end of this filthy cult and all of its human abuses.
Hi Mike and Leah,
I just found out that I’ve dumped thousands of $$$ on Nutrition Response Testing and Standard Process supplements from my chiropractor. He has been certified in NRT under Freddie Ulan who is a Scientologist. I promptly left his practice when finding this out, but am curious as to why a “Christian” would buy into this? Are the chiropractors unaware that this is a Scientology front, WISE being the front group ? I just want normal people like myself to be aware of what their doctors are selling. Can you confirm this information?
Thank you for you dedication to exposing the long tentacles of Scientology so we can avoid supporting them in every way possible!
Have been rewatching the 3 seasons of Aftermath with my daughter. Something that stuck out to me when watching all the episodes in a few binges was how many Scientologists have died of cancer. It seemed so many of the guests had had someone close to them die of cancer. I know many families across the world have been devastated by the disease, but it seems an extraordinarily high concentration among Scientologists.
Any hypotheses? Perhaps Scientology kool-aid is laced with asbestos….
Please, talk about the similarities between Scientology and NXIVM.
Keep up the good work!
I am curious what average people such as myself can do to help? I would like to get involved in the cause, although I do not know where to begin. Xoxo
Hello Eventyr-lane
Just in case Mike & Leah may not have time to answer your question on their next Podcast, one of the very best things you can do is to go to the “Aftermath Foundation”. The address is: theaftermathfoundation.org
This is a wonderful organization that helps victims of this cult get their lives in order when they leave. They do all kinds of great things for people who are at the lowest point in their lives. You can go there and have a look around and maybe contact them and read about how they help victims and get on their mailing list.
Then, if you approve of them, you may send them some money to help support them. I say that is one of the best things you can do because it is easy to get involved and you will be helping some people who have suffered some unspeakable abuses at the lowest point of their lives.
If you have any more questions, I’m sure you can either ask someone at the Aftermath Foundation or ask by posting your questions in this blog. I hope Mike & Leah may be able to answer your question. But if they can’t get to it, I hope this info will help you and I know that people will really appreciate anything you decide to do.
Another subject worth considering, albeit it truly difficult and awful. The women forced to get abortions, could you ask them more about their experiences. Where were they performe? We’re they allowed medication for pain or for anesthesia. I recall one mention they were not- how brutal and inhuman. How much time were they allowed to take off for recovery? Did they have to be sec checked or audited on top of the procedure? The whole subject is fraught with sadness and horror but I believe does merit further discussion.
Thank you for all you do.
First of all Mike, I would like to thank you and Leah for your time and tireless efforts in exposing the abuses and damages done concerning the co$. It’s opened so many peoples eyes to the truth. The new podcast is great,, love it!
I know, I’m late but there’s a few people I’d like you and Leah to interview.
*Tony Ortega
*George White
*Valerie Haney
*Jenna Miscavage Hill
*Mark Headley
*Claire Headley
*Jason Beghe
*Jesse Prince
*Chris Sheldon
*Serg del mar
*Hannah Whitfield
*Sunny Piora(sp?)
*Jeffrey Augustine
*Former guests of $cientology And The Aftermath I haven’t listed above but would greatly appreciate hearing from them and their stories more in depth.(If they wanted to, it would be appreciated).
Some topics of discussion;
*Marriages and divorce within co$.
*How did Valerie Haney contact someone safely after her escape?
*How and why has/hasn’t DM’s personal assistant, Lou, escaped being rpf-ed for so many years? What’s her history in co$?
*Kyle Brennan’s death.
*Lisa McPherson’s history and demise within co$.
*Shelly Miscavage’s parents and her mother’s suspicions death.
*Pat and Annie Broeker’s involvement in and fallout with the co$.
*Sea Org members and abortions. How did co$ see a benefit to them and still claim they are “the loyal/devoted” group the co$ claims them to be? How did DM explain the Sea Org continuing if they were not allowed to have children.
*Karen de la Carriere; How/when she joined co$? Her years of training, in depth. Explaining her various positions. How did she get to be top auditor? How did she end up being rpf’d? What interactions did she have with el Ron Hubbard?
*I was going to ask about Marty Rathbun but after thinking about it, I don’t really give a shit.
Hopefully you and Leah will consider a few of these ideas/topics/guests. Keep up the good work! Keep rocking the boat,, It’s working. : )
Except the newest podcast is about Ray Jeffrey and Marty…and I think it the best interview yet…
The podcast with guest Jeffrey Ray was excellent. Jeffrey Ray was Moniques attorney, not Martys. Had the case been resolved in a court of law on behalf of Monique, it could have ultimately altered the behavior of the co$ and it’s abuses. The podcast did answer a lot of unknown facts regarding
the case. Marty’s involvement, however, hurt many people, who were at one time considered friends.
You mean Ray Jeffrey not Jeffrey Ray….
I stand corrected.
Hi Mike and Leah, I loved your show on E&E and am so glad you two continue to speak out against the abuses of Scientology.
My main question would be why the symbol Of Scientology is a cross?
Also like to hear about Marty Rathbun’s return to Scientology.
And how much does David Miscavige make as COB? The average SO member makes what, $50 a month at most. Is he sitting on a pile of money and one day will just disappear to Belize?
This question has likely been asked & answered, but What else can non-Scientologists do to effectively help expose/end the abuses? Boycott Cruise et al, donate to Aftermath Foundation, monitor & report on social media doesn’t seem to be enough 😒
Al,
IMO, the best way to get the abuses exposed, possibly even ended, with or without the implosion of scientology, is the Aftermath Foundation. Please support it any way you can. The more people are assisted out of the bubble of unreality, the more voices are freed to add to current knowledge of the practices going on in that tiny little group. Until they’re free of the threats scn poses to them, they can’t/won’t speak out and threaten their ‘eternity’. They can’t even peek their heads out of the sand and take an HONEST look around.
Was LRH crazy? Or was he crazy like a fox? Enriching himself & enjoying the power while duping all his followers? Do you think he really thought he would shed his mortal coil and continue his research?
Brett, I’d take odds on “Enriching himself & enjoying the power while duping all his followers”
He sometimes said money was the lowest motivation, but all signs point to that being his primary motivation. Secondary, though facilitated by the money was blazing his name across all history (or some such).
Mike – as a member of OSA, could you tell us about any conversations/investigations regarding Leah that you were a part of?
Can we start a kind of petition or vote on this board?
I’d like to know what people here (or anywhere else too) might think about wanting to have Mike & Leah start (or continue) a video cast (or a pod cast) sometime soon (or maybe sometime in the future) whereby they reserve a small (or large) portion of their time of the cast to take questions from their people (by which I mean US people).
This expression of our desire is of course not binding on Mike and Leah or anyone else. It is just a way we can speak up to let Mike and Leah know how much we love them and how much we love their podcasts and their video casts and how much we would like to see them continue broadcasting (or just “casting” in any way at all) in one way or another and maybe allow us to ask them questions about this cult or about any topics they introduce.
I am sorry that I have not thought this out very well. But I would just like to express my opinion (and my desire) for Mike and Leah to continue to have a regular pod cast or a video cast on the topic of this cult and maybe any other cult. I would just like to know if the people who come here to Mike’s blog would like to see that as well.
Would any of you have an opinion as to the value of asking Mike and Leah to continue doing this because we love them so much?
Please forgive me if I am doing something stupid here?
Love the idea
Skyler, I love the idea, but I heart annoys me as a medium. Creaky, low quality and not even a decent volume control. This blog format allows two-way comm, keeping things fresher for Mike et al.
Thank you Jere. Much appreciated. But let’s continue to pursue this goal so long as we support Mike – however he wants to approach this. I’m guessing there must be some organizations like “Go Fund Me” but they don’t have to involve money. It will be good to find a way for people to express their support for Mike and Leah.
Since Mike wants to hold off for now, I think that is what we should do. It only makes sense to follow Mike’s lead.
Skyler offered:
“let’s continue to pursue this goal so long as we support Mike”
I’ll support Mike as long as he has the energy to keep it up, even via I Heart, as necessary.
Mike? Can you give us your opinion as to the best way to proceed with this?
I will do anything I can to help this become a reality.
I will even give you the ownership to my screen play that I have been keeping secret. You know the one I mean. I would bet if you tried to ask some people in the business, you might be able to find a way to make some money out of that. Mike? I want zero money. All I want is to see the end of this evil cult and all its evil abuses. I would be perfectly happy to turn the ownership of that over to you – 100 percent to you.
This isn’t what iHeart does and we are working with them on this podcast. We are going to make this work and will then look at what’s next.
I understand. That is perfectly sensible and I wish you both success.
I’m sorry if I seem to get carried away. I really just get so infuriated because these people get away with so many incredible abuses.
Cool. I’ll work with what we have to work with 🙂
At least SOME of the truth is being broadcast.
A follow up question to my first question… is David Miscavige aware of how loathed he is in the real world, and if so does he even care?
WaYC, of COURSE he don’t care about how people outside the bubble perceive him: we haters are just CICS, after all. Everyone he’s in contact with worship the ground he walks upon — or ELSE!
What is the worst thing you have ever witnessed David Miscavige doing?
WhatAreYourCrimes, I know that you are asking Mike and Leah and not me. But please forgive me because I cannot resist answering your question.
It seems clear to me the worst thing he ever did was being born. Everything else went downhill from there.
WaYC asked:
“What is the worst thing you have ever witnessed David Miscavige doing?
Indirectly, I saw him throwing KSW completely out the window with GAT, GAK, etc, altering everything to his own ends.
Directly, he came through my area, Flag’s CF, in an OEC 2 ‘internship’. Not only did he NOT recall a PL he should have read within that week called “The Primary Purpose of CF”, nor any part of the first paragraph in ALL CAPS., but he argued with me over the policy when I showed it to him. He was the only OEC intern to come through that didn’t recall even the broad strokes of CF’s primary purpose. Thus, MY CF came to be in complete PT for the first time in Flag’s history (AFAICT), nothing unfiled, all files properly filed or easily found;
***** HIS CFs are hopelessly out-of-date, requiring massive special projects to attempt to bring even Tampa’s minuscule CF into shape.
Additionally, his “scientology” is but a pale ghost of ours in the ’70s, and toothless at that, as many of his attacks/suits/PR campaigns have fallen completely flat on their faces. In addition, his followership is now smaller than the CFs at any one of the major orgs back then. AND he’s probably still counting all of us here who he declared; Well, we WERE scns at one time, so we still have to be counted as part of his slave army. If nothing else, we STILL are keeping up with the cult’s recent shenanigans.
Hi Mike and Leah,
I’ve noticed that there are virtually no uniformed Sea Org members out in public in Clearwater lately. I believe they have been told to change into street clothes if they are anywhere they can be seen by the wog world. Am I imagining this?!
Thanks, and love your podcasts!
What happened to Tommy Davis?
Isn’t Tommy out selling BMWs in the Valley or some such? Seems he wasn’t too good in the real estate biz.
Sarah A, Mike explained what happened a week or two ago. There wasn’t much said beyond the fact that Tommy Davis retired and is just living quietly now.
I have my own suspicions and I’m sure other people have theirs as well. My biggest suspicion is that the so-called Pope would have just about lost his mind because he would have blamed Tommy Davis for the terrible PR hit they took over Leah leaving. You recall it was Tommy Davis who told Leah that she didn’t have “the fucking rank” to ask about Shelly and that precipitated Leah leaving the cult and writing a book. That was just so wonderful. It was Leah at her best.
But Mike indicates that is not what happened and he would know far better than I do. I just have suspicions. Mike knows the truth.
Hey Mike and Leah….Loved your show on A&E and I’m loving the new podcast! Here’s a question I’ve always wanted to get your take on.
I have a good friend whos sister is a practicing scientologist. (She attends the Celebrity center in LA). My friend and I are not scientologist. Although my friend is not a scientologist, she was upset to learn that I watched your show last year. She claims it was full of innacuracies and lies. Her main argument is that her and her sister have a great, close relationship, and that her sister has never been asked to ‘dissconnect’ from her, despite the fact that she is not a member of the church. She also has no rules about not going on the internet, etc. She also says her sister has not been pressured to pay for courses. The sister is an acitve member, but she does not hold a ‘high up” positon in the church. Are these stories we so often hear told on your podcast, usually just reserved for higher profile members of the church? Not your average members? I’d love to hear your thoughts? Thanks!
Are you really Nicole Sullivan?
What are your thoughts on the NXIVM cult? Do you see similarities between the group
and Scientology?
Tremendously similar. Will be covering this on the Blog in the near.
NXIVM actually had some sort of still undocumented “source” for material that clearly came from Scientology, most obviously the concept of “suppressives”. Raniere was reportedly fascinated by Scientology at least as early as the 1980s and read about it, but I’d say that at a minimum he must have gotten to talk extensively to someone who had gotten in fairly deep, and that quite possibly one or more people involved with him in his early days (including the fraudulent MLM that preceeded NXIVM) were ex-Scientologists with a fair bit of experience that they incorporated into what was evolving. I’m also virtually certain that he must have known and worked with people participated in Avatar, the courses and organization created by a former Scientology missionholder in upstate New York, and it’s likely that some concepts came through that route.
There is also an equally heavy influence of Ericksonian hypnosis and NLP, but Raniere’s partner Nancy Salzman is known to have studied those extensively, so that connection is documented and fairly clear.
I wonder why all the old content on Marty Rathbun’s website (moving on up a little higher) is still available for everyone to read? I’m talking about the stuff against Scientology and David Miscavige that was posted the first years when he was no longer a scientologist. Knowing what David Miscavige is ready to do to preserve his image and reputation, it’s surprising that he has not ordered Marty Rathbun to delete those entries?
Brigitte, I strongly suspect that shutting down “Moving on up a little higher” just didn’t occur to Dwarfenführer®.
Hi Leah and Mike,
I would politely ask you to shed some light on a big mystery that happened in my life more than 18 years ago.
In 2002 I filed a lengthy citizen complaint against Scientology with 2 US Attorney offices in LA and Tampa:
http://smokyhole.org/cos/docs/ottmann_documents-complaint-report.pdf
http://smokyhole.org/cos/docs/ottmann_documents-affidavit-in-support-of-a-citizen-complaint-print-version.pdf
Both offices forwarded the complaint to the field offices of the IRS in LA and Tampa. While I did not receive a reply from LA, the Tampa office of the criminal division sent me the following letter:
http://smokyhole.org/cos/docs/ottmann_documents-20020506-gd-reply3.pdf
Then, starting in November of that year parts of the complaint were posted anonymously on the Internet. I wrote again to the IRS but never received a reply:
http://smokyhole.org/cos/docs/martin_ottmann-complaint-to-irs-cid-tampa.txt
Mike, do you know anything about this? How did the whole thing get into the hands of Scientology?
Greetings,
Martin
Martin, SO sorry. I have no idea. I think this would require someone from RTC at the time to chime in.
OK. Thanks anyway.
BTW, you and Leah are doing great work!
I certainly don’t know but there are quite a few plausible explanations. One of the strongest could be the cult has a spy in the office of the IRS. That seems highly likely because it doesn’t seem like it would be very difficult for the cult to find some innocent young person and direct them how to get a low level job in the IRS and then direct them to find and copy some of the documents they will try to use to protect themselves and/or cause harm to their supposed enemies.
Does that explanation seem to fit the facts in your case?
If so, I think it’s just terrible and I’ve been thinking lately that with all the abuses that Mike and Leah and Tony Ortega have documented, it should not be too dificult for Mr. Garcia (he is the head of the Aftermath Foundation) to find some billionaire who would be willing to fund a “push back” effort against this cult.
The cult may have a billion dollars. But IMO, the so-called POOP of the cult would never want to spend very much of that money fighting the kinds of lawsuits the cult has brought against its perceived enemies.
So, if we could just find one wealthy person who is willing to help push back against this cult, it would not really take very much. The cult would not be willing to spend much of their money to fight legal actions. I would guess that if we could just find someone to fund this enterprise, we might be able to force them to just walk away without spending a whole lot of money or investing a whole lot of time. I would like for someone who understands the dynamics better than I do to think about this and post your opinion as to just how much fight this cult might have against someone who is funded in the same ballpark in which they are funded. There are many factors. I have tried to think them through. But I just don’t understand enough to do that well. However, from what I have thought, I believe this cult is actually far more vulnerable than most people think.
Yes. They may have a billion dollars. But it won’t help them much if they are not willing to spend it to fight and I am positive they would never spend that money to fight against their enemies. They will spend small amounts (relatively speaking) to pay PIs to “fair game” and harass their enemies. But they would never spend a serious portion of that billion. That would mean that Dwarfenmonster would wind up without much money and he would never want to allow that. See what I mean?
This cult is vulnerable. With a good chunk of money and a good strategy, I believe they are much closer to the end than most people seem to think and I’d seriously like to know if people think I just might be right about this.
Hi Mike and Leah,
Thank you for the opportunity to ask and have answered some of our questions. When I’ve watched the aftermath and listened to fair game my poor little brain overloads with questions which I’ve been dying to ask. I’m sure many other listeners/viewers have the same experience.
I am a fellow Australian and a number of my questions relate to Scientology’s role (or lack of) in Australia.
– I often notice many Australians mentioned in docos and pods related to scientology, whether they be current or ex-church members, or journalists. In addition, a couple of big scientologist celebrities have links to Australia – Tom Cruise married to Nicole, John Travolta pilot for the ‘flying kangaroo. Maybe I notice it because of the personal connection, but is there a drive to attract Australian members to status positions within the church, or are there other factor at play?
-What role do regional celebrity Scientologists play in the church? For example Kate Ceberano, is she treated to the same pampering as internationally known celebrity scientologist? Does scientology focus on recruiting regional celebrities?
-According to Australian Bureau of Statistic there are just over 2000 scientologists in Australia. Taking this statistic in to account, how does the Church of scientology afford the purchase and upkeep of their Australian facilities?
– Does David Miscavige believe the teachings of Scientology?
– Is Tom Cruise personally aware/exposed to the real side of Miscavige’s personality?
– Do you Leah and Mike believe the teachings of scientology? Is there anything you learnt that you still use today?
– Do you feel without Miscavige’s leadership that the Church would have moved in a different direction?
– I used to belong to a mainstream religion and the minister’s wage was always presented in annual budgets. Does Miscavige earn a wage and is this wage disclosed to the organisation?
– Like others have mentioned above me, I too would like to hear more about Marty Rathburn’s return to scientology.
Once again, thank you so much for this opportunity. Love the pod, and keep up the great work.
Do you have any advise about wills/estate planning for parents of Scientologists? My childhood friend got sucked in when after meeting her (now) husband. She seems to be in pretty deep as she lists her employment as “Sherman Oaks Mission” and “The Way to Happiness” on social media. About 20 years ago, her parents said that they were worried about her as she donates all of her money to Scientology. Her father was successful surgeon before he died and I am assuming that most of his money went to his wife. My scientology friend has 2 children of her own, and 1 brother. The brother is not a Scientologist. Her children attend Delphi Academy. What would you (Mike) do if you were the widow? If money is left to brother , will the church make my former friend contest the will or guilt trip her brother into getting her “fair share”? Are trust funds or college funds for her children an option? I would love you thoughts.
Lisa, i’d suggest that’s something will probably get the best information about, from an estate attorney and/or estate planner.
But you can assume that anyone in Scientology will be under enormous pressure (and quite possibly coached) to get ahold of any assets or inheritance that they can, by any means necessary including attempting to influence or coerce the elderly, and then give it all to the CofS. Unfortunately thy need to be treated like a spendthrift addict or gambler – and involvement in Scientology indeed has strong parallels in many ways.
Are y’all going to get Matt Parker and Trey Stone on your show to talk about their Scientology episode and the aftermath of that? Jenny Miscavige Hill has said she didn’t know about the core tenets of Scientology before she saw that episode.
I imagine a lot of Scientologists were affected by that episode in a big way. Isaac Hayes (voice of Chef) left the show shortly after because he was offended (after all the years the show made fun of everyone and everything, he apparently wasn’t on board with some ribbing at his own expense).
Basically, I think they’d have more than a few stories to tell.
I’d like to know how they found out the “secrets” of the church and if they were harassed by the church after the fact. I bet they could shed a lot of light and provide context as humorists (as humorists provide the best social commentary in the best way).
This is a great idea! From my understanding, they were followed by PI’s, but the CoS quickly realized they’re just normal guys that live normal, boring lives… ergo, no blackmail to threaten them with.
I’d love to hear what they have to say about it.
If someone has a way of reaching them, would love to talk to them!
I’d also like to hear more about Marty Rathbun’s return to Scientology and whether Miscavige and your opinion on whether the other higher staffers are truly driven by their faith in the technology or are simpy trying to protect themselves from the law and are fully aware of that the cult isa moneymaking scam
Hi Mike, Hi Leah,
Thank you for making the podcast and also for allowing us to post questions. I think these are both great decisions, I was certainly waiting for something like this and I think I am not the only one.
My questions will be mostly related to OSA and SO management issues/operations/people, so I think it would be Mike who has the knowledge to answer them, but if you Leah have anything to add then please be my guest 🙂
1. Let me start with the “heavy” issues. Could you please talk about abortions in the SO (I think that topic alone deserves at least one full podcast dedicated to it) and the women forced or pressured to have them?
– Can you tell us how OSA involved with “handling” those women and their husbands who did not want to comply?
– Was there any women who left the SO and then had to be silenced by OSA actions or fair gaming in order to prevent them from speaking out? If so, can you please tell us what OSA or legal actions were taken against them? Did Mike have to deal with any of these personally?
– Can you tell us about internal opposition to abortions? I know that there were auditors and even MAAs who who used Hubbard’s statements from “Dianetics” to oppose abortions and attacks on pregnant women in general. Was there any OSA operation aimed at these internal critics? Can you tell us something about the disciplinary actions taken to crush this movement?
– Were the abortions favored by and ordered directly by Miscavige, or was this an initiative honestly backed by other people down the chain of command? Can you tell us more about the role of CMO and RTC in this? Was there any internal discussions or dissent on these issues in the CMO, int management or OSA itself?
2. Can you tell us about the instances of pedophilia that became known to OSA?
– Roughly how many cases like that were being assigned and investigated by OSA?
– Did the offenders have to go through the regular justice steps, or was this handled in some more covert “special” way? Was there some sort of special team or group of OSA members directed to handle these?
– Can you tell us more about the later fates of the offenders? Did the CoS send them to some remote location, or were they generally “left alone” and remained in places where they would have further contact with children?
– Can you tell us if any of the victims wanted to speak out or contact the police? Was there any concerted OSA operation to silence them?
– Did any victims after leaving the CoS threaten to report these instances to the police? If yes, then what was the church reaction? Was there any fair game or OSA operations against them? Were any paid off or forced into silence with legal threats?
3. A followup question to the above, but about instances of rape instead of Pedophilia. Did you Mike know about any and if yes, what OSA actions were taken to silence the victims? What was done to the offenders?
4. I was familiar with Julian Swartz and his role as an MAA, but only after seeing Aaron Smith-Levin’s videos did I learn that he allegedly played some key role dealing with these heavy out-PR cases like rape and pedophilia. Can you tell us more about this? Was Julian in some way the preferred go-to-man for OSA when it came to PAC? What made him different from other MAA and ethics people in WUS? Was caused him of all people to get involved in these matters? Was it a case of him simply being on post in the wrong place at the wrong time? Or did OSA/Co$ have some dirt or compromats against Julian and thus knew they can task him with these heavy out-PR cases knowing that he will not be able to speak out or resist? Was Julian being in some way forced, threatened or blackmailed?
5. Can you tell us more about the role of Fritz Kevenaar in OSA operations? Was he involved with the threats/fair game/coverup operations and if yes then what was his role?
6. A more specific archives related question. Do you know who was tasked with making transcripts of those old 70s/80s taped confessionals? Whenever I asked about it, I got the sort of: “You don’ want to know” type of replies. Were these transcripts made by the RPF or by some special team at Gold or other closed bases? Or was it really nothing special at all?
7. Speaking about Gold and the Hole prisoners… can you tell us more about Julia Delderfield, Bettina Henderson, Marion Pouw, Abby Miller and Astra Croft? What exactly happened that got them locked in there? Were hey just part of some wider purge, or was this in some way connected to CMO and ethics in specific? How come Julia, who was in theory supposed to run ethics there, got locked in the hole herself? How were the CMO people treated by other prisoners in the hole? Did they get more punishment than others?
8. Can you tell us more about the way Bill Kilpatrick and Susan Devlin were handled? What had triggered that reaction, was it something that reached Dave himself? What was OSA’s role in this? Was Greg Maher in his role as director of I&R involved and if yes, then how? Was Greg, like Julian, in some way a regular “go-to-person” for OSA?
9. I’d like to hear more about Co$ (and OSA in specific) interactions with LAPD. Did this come up in any local cases of pedophilia and other abuses? How was LAPD infiltrated by OSA and what was Mike’s role in that? What exactly was “operation Humber” about? Did OSA or OSA legal ever had to take steps against individual LAPD officers? Were any of them threatened/smeared/silenced/paid off? Were the families or friends of LAPD officers threatened/pressured/lied to/influenced?
10. OSA archives. Can you tell us more about that? Did OSA keep files on individuals that were separate from the general ethics folders? If yes, how was the OSA archive different? Or did OSA just keep simple copies with no difference in content? Was there a separate archive for OSA legal documentation? Where were the OSA archives stored? Did OSA have special people to handle them, or did they use the services of the regular scanning team etc?
11. Mike, was there any real possibility of a plot to depose Miscavige in an internal coup? Did anyone in OSA contemplate this? Did you contemplate it? Was OSA ever tasked to investigate anyone else because they were accused of planning a coup? Was CMO, Inv, FinPo, Gold security or other enforcement “agencies” ever suspected of planning such a coup?
12. Can you tell us more about the untimely death of Stacy Moxon-Meyer? Was there any sort of OSA investigation into it? Was the exact cause and manner of death established? Was there suspicions of murder or suicide and if yes was there any evidence behind that? Was OSA forced into some sort of coverup/silencing action as a result? How did Kendrick take these news? Did he cause any trouble or threaten to cause trouble for the church because of this?
13. As a followup to the question above – can you tell us more about the way OSA was involved with investigating workplace accidents, suicides and other “unusual deaths” inside the Co$? Or was it always just left up to ethics etc?
Thank you again for allowing us to post questions. I apologize for the amount and scope of these, but some of these issues stuck with me for a long time and I think Mike might be the only person outside of Co$ that can answer some of these in an extensive manner.
Karakorum,
You are asking some great questions and I certainly am not the one to answer. But please forgive me for feeling a very strong desire to say something about the abuse of children (both sexual abuse and all other kinds of abuse like physical abuse).
I Googled “What percentage of the population are pedophiles”. Here is the top link I saw:
https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-the-population-are-pedophiles
This link estimates that between one and five percent of the population are pedophiles. I would guess that same estimate applies to “What percentage of any cult are pedophiles”. But maybe even more. Why? For the same reason why so many Boy Scout leaders and priests are pedophiles. They figure out those are “safe” occupations where they can hide in plain site and get away with their crimes for a very long time. Do you know what I mean?
So, I would guess that it didn’t take very long before sexual abusers and especially abusers of children began to learn that cults were another good hiding place. They could abuse people – especially children – and the cult would protect them forever. Unless of course they were a famous celebrity like Danny Bastardson because as soon as it looks like those celebrities will get arrested and convicted, the cult drops them like a hot potato. Danny Bastardson must be one very lonely and frightened man today. His choices for living to an old age are now very limited. One way or another, I think he will be paying for his crimes which is only right and proper.
I’m actually interested in your JW episode. Was there any fallout after it aired? Have you considered covering other culty religions like Mormonism?
This is where Matt Parker and Trey Stone would also be a great “get” for the show – they’ve tackled Mormonism in terms of the more cult-like aspects of it in their musical “The Book of Mormon”. They’ve also, famously, tackled Scientology.
So do any former Scientologist leave the cult and find peace in any other real faith driven community like Christianity and such? Do they get involved in any other causes? You have said that many get into it because they think they are changing the world.
Could you walk us through “the bridge” and what goes on at each level?
Alex,
You should know that what you are asking would require someone to spend a huge amount of time to document. Even if I could abbreviate the items in each level, it would seriously take hours to write a description of the claims they make for each level and the kinds of achievements they claim you can get from each level.
The problem is partly that it would take someone hours to do this but a big part of the problem is that as Mark Headly has observed, “It’s just not worth it!”. It is all bogus. The tech just does not work. So there is little point for anyone to spend a lot of time describing it all.
Here are some links that show some images of what is involved. If you look at these links, I would hope you will understand why no one would bother to try and transcribe this info to Mike’s blog. But I wish you good luck in reading these links:
Try to Google “Scientology bridge” and you will find the following:
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk02-3M3_BPlko1MQ4W4ylv5cdlwF1g:1601046118086&source=univ&tbm=isch&q=scientology+bridge&client=firefox-b-d&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjlqozJyYTsAhXpAp0JHZywBVkQjJkEegQICRAB&biw=2552&bih=957
https://www.scientology.ca/faq/background-and-basic-principles/what-is-the-bridge-in-scientology.html
https://globalnews.ca/news/3721663/leah-remini-scientology-bridge-total-freedom/
Good luck. But I strongly recommend you do not waste more than 2 or 3 minutes of your time with this because it just does not work. However, feel free to spend as long as you like. After all, many people have claimed the early steps did have some benefits for them.
One of the best resources for learning the lingo and what goes on in every level is xenu.net which is a site called Operation Clambake. It is run by one of the original internet era critics. His name is Andreas Heldal-Lund and he’s in Norway. Another great site is https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/ which is a page by a professor at Carnegie Mellon. It’s been up for a long time and even though it looks pretty basic it has tons of info and I mean tons. Then there is Tony Ortega’s blog where he did something called “Blogging Dianetics” with Claire Headley where they went through the whole thing blog style. All very informative and if your starting off wanting to go down the rabbit hole these are a good start…oh and Mark Bunker’s YouTube channel XenuTV. Excellent interviews with just about every high ranking ex plus Jason Beghe. Also he has hours of film of PI’s and Scilons following him and harassing him. Gives you a good glimpse inside what it’s like to be a critic.
Alex, I agree with Skyler. At the Underground Bunker there is an excellent series “Up the Bridge” explained by different former Scientologists (mostly by Claire Headley and Bruce Hines, who were also highly trained in Scn). “The Bridge” is explained step by step and in a relatively easily understandable way.
In this article (“Up the Bridge: Our step-by-step series on Scientology’s ‘Bridge to Total Freedom’ “) Tony Ortega placed the links in chronological sequence to each chapter: https://tonyortega.org/up-the-bridge our-step-by-step-series-on-scientologys-bridge-to-total-freedom/
I have an idea that I would love to submit to RB (Regraded Being) for his consideration to use in one of his weekly strips that appear in this blog every Friday. I would like to do this in such a way that it is not seen by anyone else except for Mike and RB because I think it would ruin the surprise element if people saw the idea before RB published his strip. Of course I understand there is always a chance that RB would not be interested in any ideas that were submitted to him in this way.
If Mike can arrange any way for me to submit one or more ideas to RB, I sure would appreciate it. Even if Mike told me it would be OK for me to post ideas here and just preface my post with a request that Mike not publish the post but instead just forward it to RB. I would very much appreciate if Mike could arrange for some method so that people could submit ideas to RB or to other contributors to this blog in such a way that they would remain confidential.
Sure, you can make a comment and ask me to pass it on and not publish it.
Questions for Leah & Mike:
What are Scientology’s views on romantic relationships and marriage? I’m assuming you only date within the organization, but are members encouraged to legally marry? Is marriage look upon as a legal contract and/or a spiritual bond? Is sex outside of marriage frowned upon? How about extramarital affairs? Are there any consequences from within “the church” if found out? Seriously, give me the dirt!
Documents from a ethics file are not a legal binding document. It is not notarized, signed by or witnessed by a lawyer as fact. They are one sided and written by a church member who may or may not be transcribing the truth. They should have no weight and a lawyer using them as fact is violating there oath to uphold the law. Am I wrong?
How about Russia. The info is a bit confusing. Are they currently completely banned? I saw some videos but I’m not sure if that’s still the same situation or if somehow the cult made it’s way back.
If I have a question it would be in regard to the situation with Marty Rathbun.
I loved Leah’s account from the show of when the Xenu story was revealed to her, and her being in disbelief about it. I have to think that was something felt by others. Did members talk about it among themselves, or were they too scared of being written up for expressing doubt? Since leaving, have you heard from any other members about how they reacted to learning about that?
Hi Mike and Leah, I’ve always wondered how Scientology was able to get away with fair gaming and harassing the IRS when trying to get tax exemption. How was scientology able to fair game individual members of the IRS. I mean going through their trash, trying to ruin their reputations, spying etc? I don’t understand why law enforcement and the government just allowed this to go on. It makes me angry.
If you do ANYTHING on Jehovah’s Witnesses, I’d be MORE than willing to speak.
They actually did, but there is so much there to talk about it would be great to have another! I have family that are Witnesses and I’ve always thought of it as a cult as well.
The most important question for me is: Are Leah’s nails real?? 🤣
And, ya, like most of us…What the xenu happened to Marty ??
Thanks for everything you guys are doing….the cult is dying …
❤️❤️
Kim,
I have to agree. Thanks to what Mike and Leah have done – especially Leah – this cult has taken some huge hits since Leah left the cult. It must have taken Leah tremendous courage to stand up in the glare of the public spotlight and say words like, “This cult is a scam. It does not work and there is tremendous abuse going on at all levels and all kinds of abuse. I hope people are not getting fed up with me saying this.
But the more I think about what Leah did and what she risked and how she knocked these bastards right on their asses, I have to conclude she is a tremendous hero and most everyone owes her a big debt of gratitude. It is no small thing to stand up to this cult and tell them to “Eat Shit”. It takes a whole lot more of all kinds of things that I know I do not have.
Leah is made of really tough stuff. So are the Headleys and so is Valerie Haney. It sounds bizarre to say that any lady has “big balls”. But all these ladies have incredibly big balls. Can you imagine standing up to this cult while knowing what they will likely do to you to retaliate?
Leah and Claire have big ovaries! 🤣. But what about Leah’s nails??
Well Kim, all I can say about Leah’s nails is this:
If they make her happy, then God Bless her and may she go with God!
🙂
Mike,
My dad (who I love dearly and is awesome) is named Mike as well and every time I see you break down in the show when you hear something that you identify with, I hurt so badly for you as a daughter. I know if my dad was in a similar situation as you, he’d do the same as you and wouldn’t stop fighting to get me out of there and let me know the truth. Despite what your horrible ex wife says, you are not a bad father – you just got lead astray by an evil organization and are trying to make amends. I read about your reconnection with David M’s family (his brother, his sister in law, and his niece, whose book I read) and I was so happy you gave her family that little bit of closure.
Though I already have a dad, I have plenty of room in my heart to be your surrogate daughter – I know in no way I could ever replace the daughter you have lost to this evil cult but I hope it gives you some peace.
God bless and be with you. Stay strong.
– Cait
That is so sweet. Thank you.
No problem! Keep up the great work!
any update on the mrs. scientology? found her? anything about covid 19 in the scientology world?? how are they about it? (behind on listening to your show sorry if questions already asked)
Hello Mile and Leah,
Thank your all the work you’re doing and for informing the public about this dangerous organization.
My question for you is around David Miscavige. Do you think he believes in Scientology and the technology or does he just like the power that being Chairman of the Board Religious Technology Center brings him? I know he joined the Sea Org when he was a kid and worked with Hubbard, but do you think he believes in Scientology and believes what he pushes out to Scientologists?
Thank you.
Greetings,Leah and Mike.After watching the three seasons of Scientology and the Aftermath,I am now fascinated with your new podcast and look forward to it every week.My question concerns Katie Holmes,Suri and her ex-husband.Suri is now thirteen years old and according to an article I read in one of the Scientology and the Aftermath FB groups,she has not seen her father in over six years.Because Suri is not a Scientologist,her father stays disconnected from her.He has visitation rights but chooses not to avail himself of them.Yet I also read that Ms.Holmes is fearful of her daughter being unwillingly taken from her.What,if any,legal recourse does she have to be certain that she has full custody of her daughter while she is still a minor?Suri has several years to go before she turns eighteen and then able to decide for herself what she wants to do with the rest of her life.I am not a Scientologist and their belief that a young child is actually an adult in a small body and should be treated as an adult is beyond ludicrous.It is pathetic and delusional.Keep on fighting,Leah and Mike,for all the former Scientologists who were mentally,physically and sexually abused.You both are their anchor as they begin to put their lives back together.Thank you for allowing me to vent my frustration over this situation.
I’ve heard, in the past and in other interviews (the fishing videos with Marty Rathbun) that David Miscavige had special “tech” installed just for him and the like.
My question is: Does David Miscavige believe, or still believe, in the practice of scientology? If not, did he ever?
Hi again Leah and Mike.
Now that I’ve woken up properly and had a chance to clarify my own thinking:
Leah when you first began to separate yourself from the Kult and research it, were you influenced by the stories of ex-Scientology peeps talking about Fair Game reprisals? I know most of “us” at that time were still worried about reprisals and tried to stay anonymous. I’m wondering if you did too in those early days.
Mike – when my daughter’s died (especially my 2nd one) I was petrified of being targeted by the Kult for her death and the subsequent “flap.” So I did stuff that I’m very ashamed of to keep in good with Management and did all I could to follow OSA orders about the whole sorry mess.
Even after “coming out” I was worried about saying too much for fear of Fair Game. That’s why I didn’t expose what I knew of the systemic cover up of child sexual abuse by the Kult until I met with Nick Xenophon and I was able to write him the letter that he tabled in parliament back in 2009. I think I was the first in the world to publicly do so and my only regret was I didn’t do it sooner and maybe save some kids the dreadful trauma they suffered. That was the driving force behind my activism – that I had failed kids I knew had been abused. So I want to know was my fear of Fair Game over the death of my kids warranted? What was planned to “handle ” my wife and I and anyone else involved?
This has been bugging me for a long time but why does Scientology have a symbol of a crucifix on so many of its buildings when they don’t believe in Jesus or Christianity? Why don’t they have their own symbol?
Mike, could you tell us scientology’s policies on killing SP’s dogs and your experience with Miscavige ordering the killing of dogs?
Two questions: Many of the execs who have been in and may still be in the hole, are quite elderly. Would you please give an informed opinion on what their daily lives are like now? Since they are not likely to be productive members due to age and infirmity, are they being cared for? Would we even find out if one of them died?
Second: Would love an update about the Aftermath Foundation. Are people still being helped? Any stats about how many to date? What are the most pressing things you need help with (jobs, transitional housing, donated frequent flyer miles, furniture, clothing, auto donations? How can we best help locally to support ex Scientologists? Is Aaron still involved? Is there a sign up sheet for offering support?
Thanks for all you do.
Loved your last podcast with Steve Cannane.
Leah had a wonderful idea.
We are going to do an episode of the Fair Game Podcast where we respond to listeners questions.
Yes, Leah, wonderful idea. But I don’t think one episode is enough when you start to answer questions. People are curious. 😉
(Chris Shelton has reached meanwhile Q&A # 280, and still going………)
Mike, question for you: How and how often are OSA staff (regularly) drilled regarding PR and dealing with critics (the various drills) and how do they prepare (e.g. for CNN/Anderson Cooper’s “A History of Violence”? How much did Tommy Davis get drilled and was DM in on it?
Leah, question for you: How did you get drilled and coached for the BBC and John Sweeney? Was this done together with the other Celebs or alone? Did you get submittals for to practise what to say when certain questions would come up? How much time did it take about?
Thank you! Appreciated.
I escaped from Int base in 1983.
How many other people escaped and when. I’m curious about the time line and who the first known escapee was and when.
I’m sure some have escaped and hauled back in still trapped.
What happens if someone is homosexual in Scientology? Is it a conversion strategy during auditing?
I know I must be missing something but isn’t Jennifer Lopez father a Scientologist? If so how can you be friends with her if she still in communication with him she should be an SP also along with you like I said I may be confused about this whole thing but I thought that is the way it worked. Love your podcast I’ve said in the past I wish it was on YouTube so I can see you guys as you’re doing it I think people would get more out of it that way love it anyway!
Mike and Leah
I’m wondering because Marty Rathbun was an SP is he still an SP? Or when he became a guru was the disconnection cancelled?
Also I’ve been curious in regards to disconnection of SP’s, for example Mark Bunker is an SP how does this work since he has to work with Scientologists? Does this mean these Scientologists have to get more auditing? Or do they get into any type of trouble for associating with an SP even if its for work? And Leah is an SP but was in court where Danny Masterson was, if he wasn’t a celebrity would this get him into any trouble with Scientology?
Same – I went to his blog website and it seems like they pulled him back into the fold. He’s REALLY REALLY mad at Mike and Leah for some reason, doing that gaslighting thing and being like “No, YOU’RE the cult!”
It’s pretty transparent…you can see clearly he’s using the same tactics Scientology does towards defectors, even if he’s “out”.
These are great questions. I’d love to hear how they have to deal with Mark Bunker as a city councilman, and what measures they’d have to take to make that work.
I’ve watched some of the meetings that Mark has posted so I’ve seen how they interact with him. I’m really wanting to know how Scientology deals with their members talking to known SP’s. I’ve never been a Scientologist so I don’t know the correct wording. But it’s my understanding that you would get kicked out of the COS or be labeled an SP yourself. It seems like the COS has a lot of exceptions to their policies.
Has this cult ever “cancelled” an SP?
I doubt it, but how can COS ask their members to disconnect from him and then highlight his videos on their web pages, is what makes me very curious how this works.
Michelle, I’d say that CofS propaganda is rather schizophrenic, and the cognitive dissonance of contradictions is water off a duck’s back to the members, at least the sort who are still left and loyal (though there are a lot of “UTRs” who have wised up, but can’t openly leave due to family, social and business connections).
For example, it’s generally understood that much of Scientology’s propaganda, though seemingly aimed at the world – where it obviously has little if any effect, or even negative effects – is really intended for the membership, to bolster their faith and their sense that the organization and its leadership are defending Scientology and “doing something about it.”
In the case of Rathbun, I think it’s more complex, and his propaganda is either intended only for external consumption – unless it’s played or promoted internally, members are not supposed to be seeking out out on the internet, at risk of being ‘sec checked’ and subject to punishment – or if it’s used internally, most members have no idea who he was (and, again, can’t look for information about him), and likely just assume he’s someone serving up the real skinny about evil SPs.
Ahhhhhhh. The complex web we weave.
Yo Dave,
Why don’t you take this one good buddy.
Hello Mike and Leah,
What do you think of the fact that you two are real-life superheros? Super powers are not what we think they are in the movies.
Also, what do you think about the fact that cults, in general hurt everyone everywhere like radiating concentric circles in a pond. I addressed this in my small video I made with my experience at a company run by a Scientology business theology, Diskkeeper. It is a long story and difficult to shorten down but, because of their connections to Scientology and Microsoft, it caused a huge international, political and marketing mess that had an impact on everyone on earth who owns a PC. This will save time just listening to what I have said here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4rZovSHYw0
Hi Mike and Leah,
Regarding the recent blog post on Mike’s site about Marty Rathbun, any news about how his wife is handling him being in and out of Scientology? At one point, his wife was being fair gamed even though she never was a member. It seems he was pining for his glory days when he switched back to defending the church, but I can’t understand how he got over the targeting of his wife and now how she is dealing with it.
How involved is Tom in the day to day? I know he has witnessed a lot. What about John Travolta?
I know you don’t like to talk about other celebrities but I watched Going Clear after your last podcast and it seems weird that John would still be in after how Spanky was treated, even she was surprised.
Hi Mike and Leah.
I have a question for you both. Ladies first.
Leah, was it you who turned up anonymously on ESMB many years ago and posted a little bit and someone recognised you and said they’d PM you and you sort of disappeared from ESMB after that and then came out publicly a few (?) years later? I’m wondering what you thought of the critic community as you puzzled your way through that time.
Mike, I’d love to know what the response was at your level when my daughters died. I have never been able to get information on this and I understand that the kult and Diminutive Maggot wanted both “flaps” to go away quietly and quickly. Any light you are able to shine on this will help give me AND my surviving kids some needed closure.
I love your podcasts – I’ve only just found them a few days ago with the wonderful Steve Cannane as your guest. For those of your readers/listeners who don’t know Steve, he is actually a better person than he comes across as. I know from personal interaction with him over the years just how caring and compassionate a person he is.
Thanks again for all you do. I’ve pretty much retired from activism against the Kult but I still help out if I can. I’ll get those memoirs done soon as I’m almost retiring age now.
All the best to you and yours
Scooter—
I’m choked up. Don’t know quite what to say. I’m so very sorry about your daughters. I was never involved with $cientology. My heart is broken for you.
I simply cannot imagine what it’s like to lose a kid, let alone more than one. My god. Sending hugs and healing your way.
Explain this please. How can you take two of those “personality tests” 8 years apart and have exactly the same results? Didn’t even bother to read the questions the second time. Is it rigged to get you to buy in?
I will attempt to answer this here. But really, it is up to Mike and Leah to answer this as they like.
The thing about the personality tests is similar to most everything else about this cult. They’re just part of the scam. Everyone who takes the test is told the same thing – to wit, they are a “mess” but this cult can help them improve their personalities so that they will overcome their defects. It is just a “trick” to get people to come into the cult and pay a small amount for the first course in order to “hook” them into joining the cult.
It means you are stably clear and ready for your Oh Tea Levels 🙂
Newcomer said, “It means you are stably clear and ready for your Oh Tea Levels.”
I must apologize if I posted some incorrect info. I never considered that before. I hope that Newcomer was joking. But I could very easily be wrong when I said that all personality tests have the same result and everyone is told they need help and the introductory courses is the way they can get help.
Skyler,
Skyler,
No apologies necessary. I agree with you. Yes it was a joke with an added attempt to also degrade the whole “”test”” concept.
In other words, no matter the outcome of the test, you need to buy something to ‘get better’ ………………….. always, always, always.
Yo Dave,
In yer case the only thing left is McCallum to git a tad better. BTW, how were those stats yesterday good buddy?
Newcomer, thank you my friend.
🙂 Back to ya!
As a psychology major, I would like to know about when you left Scientology, how did you go about detoxifying your life? What did you do to unlearn some of the teachings/habits, and how did that fit with restructuring the relationships with the people around you?
Who’s next in line if/when Miscavige croaks it? Is there anyone positioned to keep things going or will the cult go away with him?
Why is Scientology popular with Dentists? I was written up and eventually fired as a Dental Hygienist because I refused to read a LRH book “ Basic Hat for Employees”. I was considered not a team member
People work at Diskeeper say the same thing.
It’s part of the WISE front group of $cientology. They always try to recruit new people. Scary.
Can you shed any light in regards to the situation with Marty Rathbun , do you think this was because of a big pay off from the COS, or due to the years of fairgaming against him and his family that he just wanted it to stop?
Would you be open to being on speaking terms or even friends with Marty again one day if things change and he breaks away ?
What would you say was the creepiest moment during your time in the Church?
Hi Mike & Leah! Love your podcast and listen every week. A year or two ago my sister & I went to the Australian ANZO Scientology building in Chatswood for L Ron Hubbard’s birthday celebration (as a joke/for the experience, we aren’t scientologists). While we were there, we got the feeling that they knew we weren’t scientologists by the colour of sticker they placed on our shirt, we also believe they were taking photos of us throughout the night, they even sat us in the front row! Does this sound like accurate behaviour or were we just being paranoid?
The invite also said ‘food and drinks provided’ and the only option was bad lasagna! What was the food like when Leah and yourself were at these kind of celebrations?
1. I think we need to set up a witness protection program. It brecks my heart some that have spoken out are still being fair gamed (not to mention most need mental help).
2. Possibly we could set up virtual group meetings to help each other heal from the devastation scientology does to the mind. Us further along can help others.
3. Why don’t we round up a few hundred of us and protest the injustice of sending any one back to the abusive environment to achieve justice. It’s insane and I’m done watching it occure to my friends.
The church doesn’t even have policy on mediation and admitted they’d never even done one prior to Garcias.
4. It’s been months since I received any Aftermath news email. What’s happening and do you need help with it?
Hi there
I’m interested to know what are the positives on joining Scientology? What would draw someone to join?
Hey there Danielle – Many, many reasons and many, many ways to answer your question. I will just try to answer for one tiny aspect.
Many people who join had been feeling lonely for a long time when someone suggests they come somewhere to “help out a friend”. When they go to that place, from the moment they get there, they never feel lonely again. That may seem very nice. But it is far more creepy than it seems.
One of the first things the cult does to new people is called, “Love Bombing”. All the members slowly try to get to know the new person and they tell them all kinds of nice things about them. They make sure that person then has lots of new friends who spend time with them.
But there is a dark side to all of this as well. These new friends are always watching the newcomer and reporting back to some unseen “Big Brother” exactly everything that person says or does – especially those things that person may find embarrassing and can be used to blackmail or extort them in the future.
So, if someone joins and then tries to leave, they are reminded of that behavior and very subtly, they are reminded that if they ever try to disobey the cult, that information will be made known to those people who the new member would most dread. This is one of many evil and insidious ways the cult uses to control members and ensure they will bend to the will of their “overseers”.
Pretty creepy. Isn’t it?
What became of Jenna Miscavige. She was very visible as an exposer of Scientology and then she abruptly disappeared. Did she decide that she had done her part and wanted to live her life privately? Or did she agree to leave the public eye in order to make the Fair Game stop?
What was the trigger that started the hole in 2004? There must have been a write up on its initial beginning. What was its original purpose?
If David Miscavige were duct taped to a chair in the hole, would he be able to convince you to let him go?
My question for Mike is why didn’t you ever slug that little twerp DM? My question for both of you is to please come back to TV somehow. YouTube? Anything.
Miscavige is the topmost guy in the structure, the CEO, the President, the Commander of the army.
Anyone trying to slapping him would be like having a marine corporal try to slap the President of the United states – not only it would cost you your job, but 5 seconds later everyone else in the room would jump at you and bash your head in.
I wasn’t at Gold, but I got to know the CMO culture first hand. The only real comparison I could make is with something like the USMC. And even in the USMC you have more rights and the leadership has less power than in the SO.
Thank you for your response. It was probably a dumb question. I just couldn’t help but think with nearly every episode of Aftermath…why doesn’t someone hit this guy back? He looks rather small. I understand from your answer that it doesn’t matter if he is small or not, still I don’t feel I would’ve been able to stop myself from taking a swing or at least very much wanting to.
Hey Mike and Leah! First off, thank you for all the amazing activism you’ve done for the victims at the hands of this cult. Secondly, I’d also like to mention that Leah is my hero and an incredibly strong woman I look up to. (You too, Mike!) As someone looking to work in the film industry, it’d be an honor to work with you someday.
I’m sure you’re both familiar with Paul Thomas Anderson’s critically acclaimed film, The Master. There were rumors going around about Tom Cruise being angered over Philip Seymor Hoffman’s portrayal of Lancaster Dodd who was heavily based off of L. Ron Hubbard. Ever since, Anderson has said the matter has been handled privately.
As former members of Scientology, can you disclose the general mood of Scientologists during the film’s release? Additionally, did Scientology consider Joaquin Phoenix, Amy Adams, and other cast/crew members as fair game? Have you spoken personally to any of them since leaving the cult?
Best wishes.
I concur with Margot! Can you please go into more detail about Marty Rathbun and his “return” to the fold? I would think that he can’t fully be trusted by Miscavige, et. al. (based on what you have reported about Miscavige’s paranoia) since he has already left once. Might there be some complexity here that is not readily apparent? Thanks!!
…and to Mike, greetings from a fellow Floridian. Go BOLTS!!
Are there any instances you can recall where a Scientologist in good standing did something as dictated by LRH to the letter only to receive backlash from the organization he founded?
You mentioned in an episode on the podcast that Scientologists will have another child if they god forbid lose a child. Do you think this is why the Travolta’s had Benjamin? I hate the idea of any couple in any religion having a “replacement” child. Especially when a couple was middle aged.
Also, Leah, are you still currently the victim of fair game? Or has the “church” realized they shouldn’t mess with you guys ?
Eric asked if Leah is still being “fair gamed”. Well, I certainly cannot speak for Leah. But I think it would be interesting if I may ask Eric this question. If you were a P.I. and you were out to follow Leah around and try to harass her and “fair game” her, what do you think you would be able to get out of that?
Do you think you would be able to trick Leah into doing something that you would be able to use against her? Do you think you or anyone else would be able to outsmart Leah? The basic question is this:
After all this time, what do you think you could win by “messing with Leah” or trying to use “fair game” against her? Do you think you could try to harass her and come away with some kind of “win”? Do you think there is anyone who is capable of doing that?
Finally, do you think you would enjoy the job of trying to “fair game” Leah? Do you think you would have some fun to try that?
I’m not trying to mess with you. I would just like people to think what that experience might be like.
Hi Mike and Leah…..
Loved the Aftermath and so glad to hear you guys again on the podcast.
I have a few questions…
What do you guys guys would have made Marty Rathbun go back?
What, in your opinion would it take for the celebrity’s to leave?
What research can I do in my home state of New Mexico? Find building that aren’t being used…. ext
P.S keep up the good fight!
Mike, Leah! Thanks so much for doing this! Curious – has Scientology (nearly) collapsed in some countries or not yet? Is it the US that somehow makes it easy for them to continue operating? I’m surprised I haven’t heard more about it being banned in some countries!
Is the story true that Monique Yingling and her SO posse showed up at the Denver auto dealership you were first working at after you escaped and offered you a $5-10 million check on the spot if you’d sign an iron-clad NDA and go away forever? This story has circulated on the Internet over the years.
If true, tell us more.
I could have sworn that I saw someone post a question to this blog asking if there was some way they could find the episode of “Aftermath” where Mike described his experience of leaving this cult.
I found the episode. It is Season 1 Episode 2 where Mike explains he was taken out of The Hole by the DwarfenTorturer and sent to London after he had endured many terrible beatings so that he could straighten out some mess that was, inf fact, caused by the evil dwarf itself!
It was when he was in London that he finally decided to “Blow” (or flee) from this cult and he called his friend Tom DeVoght in the USA and asked if he could come and stay with Tom. You can watch this episode via Youtube and it is around the 23 minute mark where Mike begins to describe the incident. By the way, IMHO, this is one of the very best episodes of them all.
So satisfying to see how the Evil Dwarf could do something so stupid and then get what he deserved – in spades! Truly satisfying.
Unfortunately, I cannot find the post where someone asked for help to find this episode and I fear I may be posting in the wrong day. I’m very sorry about that and I hope someone will find that post and let the person who asked for help know about this. Thank you all in advance.
What happens when/if David Miscavage dies? Who takes over? Do you think that would really mean the end for Scientology?
1. When will Mike’s book be published?
2. Have there been any recent, high profile exes who have secretly contacted you, still under the radar but soon to be explosively announced?
Hello! One thing I have wondered since watching your show is how do people who have careers outside of Scientology, for example Leahs acting career, also have time for all of the Scientology obligations? Did you ever sleep?!
I really admire your work to dismantle this cult and helping people identify cults.
Mike, what interactions did you have with LRH while on the Apollo, and if so, which ones stand out? Did you see any instances of fair game at that time?
The case of Kyle Brennon has disturbed me since the day I first heard about it.
What can you tell us about it?
Are you planning to do an episode on it?
Hello Mike and Leah,
Long time listener first time caller. My one and only question is: what we’re some of the positive things you have taken away from Scientology? I know it’s crazy to ask this especially with your platform. It’s just crazy to me that people would still die by every word Hubbard wrote, without not getting something life changing in return. Would you still be in Scientology, if a David was never in charge of it? Love listening to you both. Keep up the great work!
I had a couple questions:
1. Since Scientology and their many layered PI proxies have been coached-up by lawyers on how to live in the grey area of the law to avoid stalking/harassment charges, is it time as a society that we revisit these laws and address long-needed changes? Or are the laws we already have good enough, but they’ve been poorly enforced.
2. Considering Scientology’s leadership history, if a new leader is appointed/selected/taken over, is it safe to assume they would be as nefarious as the previous 2 leaders? That is to ask, things in Scientology world won’t ever change regardless of who’s taken the reigns and David Miscavige is just the current face of an inherently evil institution?
Mike, I can only assume that $ci continues to fair game those that speak out against it. Is it fair to say that you, Leah, Mark Bunker, Tony, Chris Shelton, Danny Mastersons accusers, Karen and many more continue to be fair gamed?
I have a similar question. I have always assumed – rightly or wrongly – that ever since Paul Haggis and Leah wrote a letter (Paul) and a book (Leah) and began to speak out, the cult has been growing weaker and weaker and they have been gradually reducing the frequency and the severity of their “fair game” attacks and their inhuman “forced abortions” and “disconnections” that tear apart families.
I have never been afraid to speak out against them – but only because I was essentially never in their bubble and also because I always felt they knew that they had to stop torturing people or at least reduce the severity of their tactics because it was doing them far more harm than good. I know there is a conflict between the fact that Tubby stated the policy that was always to be followed whenever someone spoke out against the cult .
My question is, “Do you agree that ever since they have had people harshly “fair gamed” and sent P.I.s to spy on people they called “SPs” and follow them around and terrorize them in this way, has the severity of their “fair gaming” activities been slowly and surely decreasing – thanks to the “push back” that people like Leah, Paul, Karen, Mary Kahn and all the incredibly brave survivors that have come forward on The Aftermath TV show to speak out about the abominable and terroristic kind of treatment this cult has visited upon those people who spoke out against them.
I could be all wet about this. But IMO, it seems the severity of their stupid but terroristic attacks has definitely been decreasing thanks to all the brave people who have come foward and spoken out about how this cult terrorizes people that have spoken out against them. Would you agree there any truth to this?
When did you mentally finally break from Scientology? Was there a period between when you physically blew from when you finally realized, “this is all BS”?
Oops. This is the post where Gary asked for help to find that episode. It was Season 1 Episode 2 and it was IMHO, one of the very best episodes of them all. Please see my recent post here that explains this. Mike describes the wonderful day when he decided to leave around the 23 minute mark of this video. It was truly a great day and a great decision. Congratz Mike!
Mike? If you have some time, could you please combine this post with my previous one that explains that this is the episode that describes your finaly deciding that “enough is enough” and when you decided to leave this terrible disgusting torture chamber.
I sincerely apologize for being so confused and wasting your time. Very sorry Mike.
Hi Mike and Leah,
Love the show and the podcast.
Can you speak more about your transition from myopic believer in Scientology to doubter to someone whose willing to risk everything to call them out publicly?
I’m not sure I fully understand how that transition occurred for you both.
Thanks!
I like most of us have watched all of the TV episodes and listen to the podcast. This is such an eye opener.
My question…for someone like me not a celebrity how could I survive within Scientology with little money. It seems as if there are many, many “fees” associated with being a Scientologist. Can you explain, please.
O/T. A small update on an ongoing story.
“Highly Commended” Scientology Field Staff Member Nation of Islam Sister Renata Muhammad yet again says that “Separation” is “The Only Solution.” See:
https://exscn2.net/threads/scientology-field-staff-member-and-scientology-commendation-winner-nation-of-islam-sister-renata-muhammad-attacks-imposter-jews.1574/post-57324
/
Cool beans.
Are there any former long-term members who have rid themselves of all vestiges of love for LRH’s so-called “tech”? Or do most still say “Well, in the beginning…” and go on to add to the LRH mythos of having created some ‘tech’.
Many exes still treat the ‘tech’ as if it was a real thing, rather than the work of a clever con man, sometimes ably assisted by people who should have known better than to give credence to such nonsense. It seems the normal statement is “well at first I got a lot of good out of it” when in fact the PC was being set up to become an absolute unthinking Ronbot, through hour after hour of repetitive semi-hypnotic commands.
Parts of the TRs are not much different from Army Boot Camp of decades past, where loud, demanding, all-powerful Drill Instructors created personality breakdown to make instantly obedient Soldiers who would run into gunfire at command, no matter the risk, and without hesitation – at least once. The boot camp techniques were used on kids barely out of high school, who did not have a lot of years of developing their adult personality to be able to say “Heck no” and resist orders as stupid as running ‘over the top’ straight into millions of machine gun bullets and artillery shells. Just as Boot Camp created young men willing to die rather than let their buddies down or suffer the degrading punishment of being called a coward (or the firing squad for desertion under fire), so too LRH created his own sort of Boot Camp in which a PC would never say a disparaging word, to insure they retained membership in their chosen group.
I’m one of those who finally left the “tech” behind fully, after 40 years in, though I have to admit it took a few years even after I escaped the Sea Org. Probably there are quite a few others, though you can’t always tell by their public statements. Someone can be very upset with David Miscavige and absolutely hate the corporate Scientology of today and still feel that the basic technology was valuable in some way.
At one point I was wavering a bit (facing an RPF assignment) and decided to try to figure it all out. Read a book by Isaac Asimov with short biographies of the giants of science. Isaac Asimov’s Biographical Encyclopedia of Science and Technology, I think. There are some well-revered scientists who were real weirdos. Isaac Newton wrote more works about the Bible than about science, tried to become an alchemist, stole the “calculus” from Leibnitz (some dispute that assertion), was a member of Trinity College but didn’t believe in the Trinity… Does that mean he was wrong, and apples are going to start flying into the sky instead of falling? NO. There are lots of similar examples.
The other stickler is the idea of “empirically derived” science. Newton explained almost all of the motions of the planets based on a measured guess at the gravitational constant, but never had any idea how the gravitational force actually works. It took Einstein to figure that out, and explain oddities like the orbit of Mercury, There are still details that are not fully explained.
A lot of the explanations Hubbard used were blatantly unphysical and false, like his four explanations of how the e-meter works. All different, from different time periods, all wrong. At first an engram was a “trace on a cell”, then a “mental image picture” in a strange part of the mind, then some kind of stored energy, then we find out we were making them all up and it’s really disembodied spirits that are causing the issues. Who knew?
But you could still say you tried some simple Scientology procedure and it “worked” (meaning mostly that you felt better afterward).
Well, honestly if you sit down with someone and spend a lot of quality time talking about yourself, with the other person at least seeming to be fully interested and engaged, you will at least obtain some serious ego stroking. Add in a lot of prior expectations and make them pay big bucks for it. The emperor’s new clothes will look pretty fly. Nothing to do with any “discoveries” by Hubbard, except some hypnotic techniques he borrowed from Mesmer and Jung.
To make a scientific discovery, you have to make a falsifiable assertion that explains something. Then test it and find that it proves out. At that point, other scientists replicate the experiment, and if they also prove out you can tentatively call it accepted.
Hubbard flunked out on all of that. No studies, crazy “testing” procedures that mostly consist of trying all sorts of things until the subjects start raving about how great it all is just to get out of it. He was the king of scientific bias.
The other sticking point is the idea that he remembered it all from past lives. Just like the Buddha! I hear from my Buddhist friends that the legend Hubbard told about the Buddha reviewing his past lives under the Bo tree is a horrible distortion of their actual beliefs. You have to ask, if he could extract complete elaborate counseling procedures and administrative ideas from his past lives, why not the location of King Solomon’s Mines? Or the faster-than-light interstellar spaceship drive?
Safer just to assume anything emanating from Hubbard is as smelly as it smells. Not that he never said anything that was true, even a broken clock is right twice a day. Long as it’s not digital. You have to look for original sources and test his statements one by one.
It generally takes a lot of study to unhook oneself from Scientology. Lots of books, like the ones mentioned on this blog, the Aftermath show, other blogs and honest information from all sources.
Not an easy or comfortable journey. At some point you come face-to-face with the fact that you were wrong, did wrong and convinced others to do things that were wrong. That’s probably why not everyone takes it all the way.
In some ways you could call it a specialized issue that only applies to Scientologists, not of much general interest, but really it’s like a microcosm written small about a huge subject that applies to much more important issues. How do you un-radicalize a former radical? Civilize the uncivilized? Persuade someone who has committed horrible crimes in the name of some ideology to rejoin the human race? Does it really take a concentration camp? Or can it be done with education and love?
I’d love to hear Mike and Leah’s take on all that.
Well, I will put myself in the firing line and say that I derived a lot of benefit from Scientology.
When I first started on TRs I was failing at a pretty miserable job. After completing, I fixed this almost immediately. I am always puzzled when people say that TRs are for brainwashing or making zombies.
TRs made me a lot more awake.
I have also heard how Bullbaiting acclimatizes one to the idea that abusive behavior is OK.
Nope, not for me. This drill allowed me to choose how I react to abusive or any other kind of behavior.
This training remains useful to me to this day.
Many other things changed for me during the course of my Scientology services and I became very prosperous.
I know that correlation does not necessarily imply causation and there was no control group , so the benefits I feel I obtained are subjective and not provable.
Of course, none of this means I would ever return to the fold. (I am no Marty.)
I could not possibly condone or support forced abortions, fair gaming, IAS regging and all the rest of the abuses, not to mention the sky-high prices.
Don’t see the point of saying that everything was worthless though.
Hey Cavalier,
I agree with you because I had similar results from doing TRs. I also had amazing cognitions doing the Conditions Formulae and I made magnificent changes in my life through them too. Most importantly all the good I had achieved was through my own personal application of the tech. When I compared all I’d done by myself alone to what I got out of auditing and training the truth struck home; I was never going to get anything from “services” I had paid for. My happiness, prosperity and increased ability was “on me” not the cult. I walked out and have never been happier.
Glenn
I have recently re-watched most all of the TV show, “Aftermath” as well as several of the films about this vile cult.
I really feel the need to recommend this to anyone and everyone who is interested in this cult and its history. I learned so much more by watching for the second and subsequent times than I did the first time. The TV shows and the films were just so much more informative upon the re-watching than they were during the first time I saw them. IMHO, the people who produced these shows did a fabulous job. No wonder they were rewarded with those Emmys and they truly deserved more than just two Emmys.
I want to say that I felt so much compassion and I feel that I learned so much more about human behavior by re-watching these programs. The experience was truly great. If you have the time to do this, I cannot recommend it to you all any more strongly than I have tried to do. It was a great way to spend a day. It also gave me some ideas as how I could contribute more to the cause of demolishing these horrible cults.
The victims who appeared on this TV show were just great! I cannot find the words to express my admiration for them.
My questions from 2017 reposted:
Chuck said:
“. . . where in The Path the guru leader tells number 2 guy it’s all bogus, and that’s relayed down, but the news isn’t relayed all the way to the followers, and the sort of Miscavige level bosses to the movement stop the full relay of the guru’s admission so the new bosses and the followers keep going, LOL.”
What I think:
There was a small group of Int Management executives who were privy to all the secrets that had to remain hidden (post-1986) for the COS to continue as it had for the decades prior.
DM, Pat Broeker, and possibly other insiders on the Int Exec team promulgated a decades-long coverup by lying about:
1.) LRH’s final years,
2.) his failing health that his tech could not, would not solve,
3.) his personal non-attainment of Operating Thetan,
4.) his attempted suicide in Nov of ’85,
5.) his failing mental health and descent into an old age madness,
6.) his outright abandonment of his wife — call it divorce if you want — and family,
7.) the missing upper OT levels
8.) much more . . .
Dave and Pat Broeker had a chance to come clean about LRH’s final mental and physical state (which matters!) in 1986 and clear the air. They chose not to.
I know by 1988 everybody at the top knew there were no upper OT levels after the raid at Newberry Ranch. And the thorough inspection of LRH’s folders must have verified all the rumors of mental and physical failings in his last years.
Mike, would you be willing to name names of the inner circle, the small cabal, that covered up and lied about all this for thirty years? Certainly you must have an idea of who the “insiders” were. Maybe it was just a conspiracy of two, Dave and Pat. And then there was one. Slim chance, LOL.
Is this why some of the former Int Base executives are being held in The Hole until they pass away? They are insiders and know too much?
A little birdie told me that Jesse Prince is ready to name names and reveal “who knew what and when” in his forthcoming book. Describe the inner circle and levels of the deceit and cover-up. He heard and saw a lot, as you might suspect having held a very high post.
I don’t believe things “just happen.” People, individuals, with volitional decisions made up the shore stories, hid the real facts, and crafted the lies we were told. Any names of perpetrators coming to mind that you could share?
Inquiring minds want to know the full story . . . .
I think this question would be a good topic for one of your upcoming posts. Let’s all clear the air in 2016 (thirty years late), LOL.
Thanks much,
Forever Lurker
Can you provide more insight into Marty Rathbun?
I remain confused about the timeline of his movement into the cult and then out and then back in etc.
I would very much like to hear both your opinions as well as Leah’s as to why he changed his attitude so many times. I find it all difficult to understand. Hard to believe that a rather small (by comparison to other cases) amount of money would cause him to change his stance so often.
The only think that ever seemed to make any sense to me was maybe his wife or other family members were in dire need of something that cost money and he did this to help them. I just cannot reconcile his actions with his saying words to this effect, “Mike Rinder is a better man than am I.” Very difficult to figure out his actions.
Skyler —
Go to Marty’s blog. It’s all there.
OK. Thank you Katherine. Much appreciated.
Skyler –
Below are some links to jump into that rabbit hole. The initial – Tony Ortega’s overview/timeline is a pretty insightful history of Marty from DM’s #2 when he blew, to his initial “Coming out” as a “Scientology Warrior” (his words) and leading quite the exodus (along with Mike, here) as they assisted with various cases against co$ and became massive voices in the independent scientology movement.
As time went on some indies became critical because he was beginning to see LRH as more of a conman and eventually got to a place where he stated anything helpful in Scientology was stolen and twisted a bit from other things/authors and is essentially a long con. That shifted to his phase of interviews and participating in Going Clear amongst other smaller projects.
Then his wife abruptly withdrew her lawsuit (with wording that appeared to be 100% Marty, if you’d read his stuff for any length of time) and thus began the new phase of attacking longtime friends and supporters.
In comments, you’ll see many references to “the fishing/boat videos” with Mike R. Those give great insight into the genuine and deep friendship they had, which makes this even tougher. There are others as well who treated he and his wife (and they in return) as family. Mike handled the whole debacle in a very respectful manner and only finally spoke up in a single post when things were hitting an all-time high of drama and supposition which was creating much strife in the former scientology community. Even then, his response was measured, pragmatic and handled delicately, as many (I’m sure Mike atop that list) were also quite concerned for Marty’s mental health/strain from it all. After reading Tony’s overview, then Mike’s response here on the blog, another insightful commentary was posted on Aaron Smith-Levin’s YouTube channel.
Links:
https://tonyortega.org/2017/03/14/memories-of-a-scientology-warrior-marty-rathbuns-curious-career-as-church-rebel/
https://www.mikerindersblog.org/marty-rathbuns-meltdown/
https://youtu.be/7C5uiA6t1XY
There is a LOT of info and opinion out there. Having watched it happen in real time, these were the most helpful as far as overview and without wading into the many conspiracy theories as to why. Hope that helps!
Jennyfurrr, Great info. Thank you so much. It must have been a lot of work for you to compile this for me and I truly appreciate you taking the time to do that.
I sense you are very interested in this part of the history of the cult and I find it to be very fascinating as well. On one hand, both Marty and Monique seemed to be so courageous and took their lawsuit so seriously. But then, for some reason Marty flip flopped and it must be difficult to understand why.
I will read the links you have posted. But I wonder how much of Marty’s behavior was due to some factors he considered necessary and how much of his behavior was somewhat psychotic. I saw more than once where people referred to him in a way like Lisa McPherson and they seemed to think he had a psychotic break with reality.
I would really like to try and understand the reasons for his behavior. Regardless of the truth, it seems to me to be a very interesting chapter in the history of this cult.
Oh Jennyfurr, I have begun to read through the links you provided. I began with Tony Ortega’s blog and the item titled, “Memories of a Scientology warrior: Marty Rathbun’s curious career as church rebel”.
It was very long but I did get through it and then I tried the next link – which was a blog entry on Mike Rider’s blog. It was from June 25, 2018 and it had an amazing 609 comments. I don’t think I’ve ever seen one of Mike’s blogs get more than 150 to 200 comments so this one was just astounding. It will take me days to read through all of these comments.
But so far, one thing is clear. Marty Rathbun’s history with this cult is incredibly long and complex and convoluted and it will be terrific if Mike and Leah can manage to summarize it into something understandable. At this time, I could not possibly tell anyone just why Marty seems to have done the things he did.
Hey there!
No problem and honestly it didn’t take much time. I just had to Google the basics I remembered and they popped up pretty quickly. I’ve told my story before, but I’m a never-in. However shortly after marrying my husband, he went to work for a Scio-owned company. One of the owners revered DM & TC and funnily enough… was about as tall and (soon to find out) as prone to raging freak outs. 100% turnover within 9mos despite the fact they paid well, though no medical insurance, only chiro & dental coverage. Anyway… they tried very hard to get my husband more and more involved and decided at some point that I was why he was refusing. Then they started in on these repeated, invasive “talks” after work about how I was a “stop” to his success and “now was the time to leave” (I was very pregnant and nearly died 1/3 of the way through – they wouldn’t give him time off and also asked him to “think long and hard about why something like that would happen to someone, perhaps there’s negativity that she’s bringing into your lives “) and just crazy invasive/no boundaries. Lots more to it but by the time he walked out 13mos or so later (3wks before baby was born, it was so bad!) we both felt like we’d been through some surreal, hyper-stressful ordeal so in researching, I found Tony’s site, this one & Marty’s. (2012-13)
The incredible people I’ve met and what they’ve gone through… lit a fire in me. The Marty stuff stuck out to me (if I’m absolutely candid) because I have a parent that struggles with mental illness and a personality disorder. I won’t diagnose anyone – not even close to qualified for that… but there were many things he started to say/do as things got a bit weird that just felt… familiar. I have had my own family member… my own parent, make things up about me, do whatever it took to serve their own interests even at my expense. But more than that, the paranoia, big conspiracy of people and the very out-of-perspective reactions anytime they feel embarrassed/exposed or criticized. And the videos he did – esp after years of tight knit relationships – were mind blowing when you’d semi-recently heard him emphatically and repeatedly saying the opposite. Plus I’d read firsthand what Tony or Mike would write and he’d then misinterpret or accuse them of saying the exact opposite (Tony initially was emphatic that it was unlikely he took a deal/settlement, yet that was his initial beef and so it became like a car crash you can’t look away from… but realizing this was a real and broken person and he was damaging others’ cases, reputations and even attempting to affect their livelihoods. Just unreal – so it really sticks out even still.
Lol another tl;dr – Jenn
PS – Above you asked what caused co$ to shift away from fair gaming every single person who spoke out. Google the rise of Anonymous activism against scientology. That was unreal, so massive in scope/scale and organized such that concurrent and lasting protests were ongoing. Once that hit it really changed everything for many critics because the simply didn’t have the resources to FG because it was coming from all directions. Lots of interesting history there, too.
Oh Jennyfurrr,
I have made so many posts today that I really do not want to make any more. But I cannot possibly resist the lure to call you out and thank you for your helpful posts that were so very informative.
I need to tell you that I really value your posts and the fact that you use 3 RRR’s is just an incredibly attractive feature for me. I know not why. I cannot seem to be able to put my finger on the reason. But I really and truly enjoy that aspect of your posts and I just cannot say why. But I do. I truly duly do! Yes. I do. I really do!!!
I am so sorry that I just cannot contain myself. I have been following you (but not in an harmful way or in an antagonistic way, for so many years now. I always think of you as “My Jennyfurrr with her three RRR’s and I like them very much. There have been so many posts from you today and I have enjoyed them all so much, I cannot begin to tell you why. You are just a clever lady and you bring the world at large to this post. Yes you do! You do! You do. You do. Yes you do! You do! You Do! Jennyfurrr. Oh dear. I best go away and hide out in sympathy. Oh Jennyfurrr! I always enjoy seeing you here and I always enjoy sharing this space with you!
Yeah. I would like to know more about that as well.
My questions from 2018 reposted:
Mike, I have an idea for a post, or better yet, an episode of The Aftermath.
By 1986-88, Miscavige and Mithoff, at least, knew that Hubbard went down hard, that factually there were no upper OT levels, and perhaps much of the Bridge was a scam. (Mithoff had to invent an OT8 to keep the complaining OT7 mobs at bay.)
In order to keep things going, Miscavige had to very quickly cover up details about Hubbard’s final years and create a series of narratives or shore stories to feed to the masses, lest they all be found out about and the entire COS collapse at that time.
Miscavige, and others possibly, sat around for the next few years and invented lie after lie, one false narrative after the next. It would be very interesting to hear about all the machinations and palace intrigues that went on back then and who was actually responsible and how exactly they did it.
How the imaginative stories and delusions of one man, Hubbard, were given an extended life and a much more profitable one, by his perfect successor and heir to the throne, Miscavige. A man who could tell lies with equal aplomb as Hubbard and who was equally greedy: power and money are all that matter. And how did people sit around and not notice this happening?
Do you know anyone who was there and who you could interview about the secret inner workings of this “perfect transition” of a con from a dying and delusional old man to younger and equally ruthless one.
The only person I’ve heard speak about this with authority and total bluntness is Bill Franks. May he rest in peace.
I think digging into some of this “ancient history” would give people a hard lesson about how these extended cons and Ponzi schemes are kept going for so long.
This is the real story (basic-basic) people need to hear, whether they’re ready for it or not.
The truth will set you free . . . as I’ve been told.
Forever Lurker
PS: Two movies were done about the inner “back room” workings and lies of the Bernie Madoff scheme. And the various people responsible. Viewers are interested in this stuff. How others get conned. How it’s done. How the fake stories are invented and promulgated. At the genus; at the source; early on.
How is the stalking and harassment they engage in not a violation of stalking laws? Is it because it’s done thru PIs so there’s some sort of ‘investigation’ exemption’? I see some of the crazy videos and read some of the stories and wonder how they’re able to keep doing it legally. I know they don’t care about ‘wog law,’ but that’s another question…
Yes I’d like to now why /how they get away with harassing ..I’m from uk and watched the panaroma doc with John sweeny he clearly had on camera them following him and then the second doc where he recorded your wife abusing you whilst you both was having a conversation on the phone how do they get away with ?
johnqpublic —
They get away with it for a few reasons. First, Miscavige has billions to pay for endless, high-priced lawyers to defend the indefensible.
Second, the US government is too chicken shit to go after them for the most part. $cientology is extremely litigious — and they know that.
Third, our government had so much awful sh*t to deal with that a cult with less than 20k members probably seems a waste of time. But it’s certainly not a waste of time. This vile, criminal organization masquerading as a religion needs to be shut the f**k down.
There’s other reasons, but those are probably the top reasons why this sick organization continues to exist.
Agreed with your points here, Katherine. Also I’d add that once it became quite public that they used folks like disgraced former LAPD Officer-turned-co$ PI Gene Ingram* to harass and cross legal lines, they became more careful to have law firms hire the PI’s and keep everything at arm’s length in such a way that it’s near-impossible to connect them legally to the behavior of the PI’s.
* Overview on Ingram here:
https://tonyortega.org/2016/08/02/for-scientologys-most-infamous-dirty-trickster-retirement-has-a-happy-ending/
**Note I said NEAR impossible… the PI’s caught surveilling Ron Miscavige and the ones who followed Pat Broker for over a decade temporarily spoke out before being bought off to end their lawsuit and speaking out and finally the young woman who befriended the Rinder’s, became a neighbor and even followed them to a new neighborhood but ultimately spoke out within the last couple years have made clear this still goes on, so there are ways to make the connections.
Reference your article and photo: “The Disappeared” September 25, 2018
It’s always intrigued me, which of these upper level SO management guys [in the photo] were the inventors of the shore stories, the lies, and which were simply the enablers of the shore stories.
We know Hubbard invented a so-called “science,” but how did he end up himself? I can only go by the actual outcomes it produced in him.
Hubbard was very physically ill on and off from about 1968 to his death in 1986 (ages 57 to 75). Much more so than most people his age. He suffered from multiple bouts of pneumonia yearly at one time (admitted in a personal letter), heart attacks, strokes, pancreatitis (taken to hospital in early ’85 for a very bad attack . . . could not walk by himself), among other things.
From age 64 on, he exhibited early signs of dementia or senility. I’m not a doctor so I can’t exactly describe it . . . but he had it. Something going on there. (From my readings of posts and discussions with people who worked directly with him face to face. Also, his personal doctor, Denk, has said as much, as corroborated by Bill Franks.) He suffered from an uncontrollable temper and rages as he got older.
He wished to die in 1985 and attempted to take his life in November, so we’re told by his close friend and confidant, Sarge. In 1986, he volitionally withheld proper medical treatment at a hospital for a stroke or two, so he would die.
By 1988, Marty along with Monique Yingling, Greg Whilhere, Miscavige, six PIs, and quite a few others had raided LRH’s former ranch at Newbury Springs and absconded with a treasure trove of LRH’s auditing folders and research notes. Marty and the other senior execs pictured above would have, should have known by then (with total certainty I’m guessing) that OT 9 & 10 didn’t exist in any way, shape or form. That the promises of the upper bridge were essentially unachieved, so essentially a fraud, and that LRH came to ignoble ending.
Can you share with us who were the originators and perpetrators of the lies and false mythologies post-1986? These events and stories did not just “happen” out of the blue. They were caused and invented by somebody(s). The bridge turned into a volitional false act and carefully orchestrated fraud at that point. Who are the liars and who are the enablers here? Who were the members of the secret cabal that knowingly lied for decades?
Otherwise, we have only a conspiracy of one, David Miscavige, and no one else knew a thing. Some have said as much.
Who invented the LRH achieved OT, LRH invincibility, and Target Two disembodied research stories after LRH’s death? DM? Broeker? Cooley? Who knew better but covered up the truth? Ray Mithoff?
Who invented the story that OT 9&10 existed and would become available? That one cost me about $30K in a donation for a future imaginary level. The RTC that Marty was the head of at the time sent out a letter about it in the early 90’s and I paid up.
Who wrote the Original OT 8 and which of the guys in the photo knew that it was not LRH? Who just went along to get along but knew better?
My theory is that these guys [in the photo] are locked up in “The Hole” because they know way too much and are too dangerous to be on the loose and free. If any of them talked and told the true details of the steps that were taken post-1986 to perpetuate the con, the COS would collapse pretty quickly. The easy solution then would be to keep them locked up and incommunicado until they pass away.
I believe that all these stories and lies were invented by specific individuals and then others hid the actual truths they knew. It cost me a ton in cash and personal grief. I’d like to know the “who” or “whos” behind all this.
Mike, what can you tell us? Can you finally name some names? Tell us what went on behind closed doors?
Back in 2018 you replied:
“Sorry. I don’t have time right now. You’ve asked a number of good questions here and each is somewhat complex to answer.”
Now you have the time and a format for some longer discussions. I think many people are wondering about all this like I am, especially after wasting the most valuable years of our lives chasing a lie.
Love the podcast,
Forever Lurker
I am wondering if there is someone being groomed to lead Scientology in the future as DM was? I am talking about someone younger, not Tom Cruise.
My question.
What Clear cut examples have you seen of Scientology dogma and control diminishing the quality and output of creative artists(writers, music artists, painters, actors, dancers, film makers, etc) That could also include members quitting their art for a higher purpose.
My question to Mike: When you consider the Marty Rathbun who was your close friend and then consider what he’s said about you and done since his wife fired her lawyers, what do you think happened? Was the person he presented himself as (one with strong principles) just a pretense in the first place? Was the friendship of someone living such a pretense not real in the first place? Could he have been the friend he seemed to be then, yet still sell out just for money? Must there have been some other coercion involved? (Tony Ortega has made the case that blackmail was unlikely to be involved.) It would gnaw at me so much if it was my friend (and yes, I have had a friend who either was that false in the first place or suddenly became someone else). In fact, it even gnaws at me about Marty, despite not knowing him at all. If someone like Miscavige stabs you in the back, it hurts, but you kind of knew that was in the cards all along. That’s the kind of shark he is. Ruthless. But Marty: who is he? I lean toward outright narcissist with a messiah complex myself. But I never met him. How do you account for it? (Sorry, that’s more than one question. But it’s one topic.)
I had a look on the web but there is little or no news of DM.
All religious leaders, even on several occasions, have sent a message to their members about this difficult period.
Here if we exclude IGNW Bulletin 88 there doesn’t seem to be anything else on his part since March.
Not even a video like Bin Laden use to do.
Since he is the great producer and director of all Fair Games I wanted to know if you have any news or is it just hidden. Thanks Leah and Mike
Leah, We have heard a lot about how the cult has tried to fair game Mike and many others. But I don’t recall hearing a lot of how you have been fair gamed. Can you expand upon that?
I would like to know why Pat Broeker has been so silent. Any chance you could get him on a podcast episode? Would love to hear his stories and current thoughts.
Q.
It seems incredible that when a victim is being surveilled by a Scientology PI over such a long period doesn’t some kind of anti-stalking law apply and if so why is it not used?
Andy S.
It is worth noting that I have not seen two people happier at what they are doing in a very long time. It’s almost as if you are getting to do what you want to and being successful at it. Making a difference every day!
Jim I fully agree with you!
I would like to ask Mike the following serious question. Suppose I could present you with two options for the remainder of your life. Which one of these would you choose?
Choice A) Suppose you could live out the remainder of your life in luxury with millions of dollars at your disposal and your loving family (your second wife and sons) on an island somewhere or somewhere free from any concerns of this cult, where you could live out your life in great comfort and happiness with your family without ever again thinking about this miserable cult or its many victims. In other words, this choice is a purely selfish life for you and your family and you would have no contact with any of the victims and you would not lift a finger to help anyone who has been damaged by this cult.
Choice B) This choice has you living the remainder of your life with just an average materialistic lifestyle – with just an average amount of money – an average home – an average car – etc. You and your family would be comfortable – but definitely not wealthy. You would spend the remainder of your life fighting back against this cult and slowly but surely putting them out of business and seeing the DwarfenDictatorTorturer arrested, convicted and imprisoned for his many crimes – most notably facilitating rape and the sexual abuse of women and children. You would also be a tremendous help to its many victims and you would be in constant communication with several foundations that help those victims and you would be active in the struggle to shut down these bastards.
How long would it take you to contemplate these two choices before you decided on the choice you would prefer? And which choice would you make? I have to ask for the sake of people who don’t know you.
Is anyone doing up a full history of the last months of L. Ron Hubbard’s life? The best “new” info is almost a decade old, and it’s from Lawrence Wright’s final chapter of his book, “Going Clear…” and then from Marty Rathbun’s book, “Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior”, chapter “Meanwhile Back at the Ranch” which both detail the final months of Hubbard’s life.
It is new news to Scientologists to hear about their founder’s final months and year or two of life.
For posterity, it’s good to know what happened physically and mentally to the guy who founded this pseudo-therapeutic/exorcism “religion” charade operation.
Those two books tell of some dismal moments of despair, on Hubbard’s part, and that is new news, still.
It’s blockbuster info, and is anyone doing anything to add onto the final history of Hubbard’s life?
Secondary questions, are the third and fourth hand info, like from Camilla Anderson who told what Annie Broeker told to Camilla.
Others at Int Base heard possibly what Ray Mithoff had to say about the final weeks when Ray visited Hubbard and ran the “End of Life” process on Hubbard, and it’d be good to hear was else Ray said. Ray’s in of course, but Ray’s possibly shared more info about Hubbard’s final weeks of life that ought be shared. Annie for sure told others about Hubbard’s final weeks, and there was a slew of ASI staff who all went up within two weeks after Hubbard’s death to Creston Ranch to clean up the place, and they must have learned a thing or two.
Before all these persons with third hand info die off, I’d really appreciate you guys putting your power to light some interest in digging up the final further details of Hubbard’s life.
Annie Broeker was MAA in training, with Clairisse Brousseau being one of the RPF’s MAA’s, of the Int RPF in Feb 1989 and I think Sarge was just then at that moment also on the Int RPF. So both Annie and Sarge in early 1989 were on the Int RPF out at Happy Valley, I happened to see Annie for my RPF beginner Ethics Conditions, as Clairisse apprenticed Annie on RPF MAA duties.
There were all those persons on the RPF at that time, who picked up this or that, for those few months when Sarge and Annie were on the Int RPF. And then Camilla and other Int Base staff in CMO Gold or the LRH HU department, and Annie was in F & E, films and equipment, and my later RPF twin told me that Annie was on the LRH Negatives upkeep project, getting all of LRH’s photos and negatives in order, this is a super select job that only the highest most in the know upper ranks entourage people do, and also because of these perk jobs to do with LRH’s artifacts and LRH’s own stuff, like his photos, there necessarily is all sorts of other Int Base staff, mainly CMO Gold, and HU staff, who know all the ins and outs of LRH’s final life.
There’s just a mammoth amount of details really, about the final months and years of LRH’s Creston Ranch life, including the possibility of writings, or “Creston advices” from LRH, or orders he gave to the Creston Ranch people, like to Pat Broeker, to Sarge, to Annie, to Denk, for things to do with the ranch or his health, etc.
The context of LRH’s mindset, his final years, would be good to dig up. You both have the power to ignite some interest to start digging.
Chuck Beatty
ex Sea Org 1975-2003
PS: It ain’t pretty, but the truth needs to come out, about Hubbard’s state of mind and physical state, in fuller detail.
Agreed! To me that’s one of Scientology ‘s most interesting eras.
Hypothetical – If Miscavige found out he had a terminal illness, would he anoint another leader or just say “sort it out yourself “ ?
Just my opinion … but …. I would guess that he would spend every penny he could get his hands on (and he can get his hands on billions of dollars) on wacky cures from so-called faith healers and all kinds of fakes and phonies.
After all, it seems to me there is no bigger sucker in the world than a con man and there is no bigger con man in the world than those people who are in charge of cults.
Please be advised this has just been my opinion.
Please mention what technical training has legitimally ever achieved David Miscavige. In view of the fact that he has been C/S ing without any valid Certificates thus committing what Hubbard classifies in his own writings as a HIGH CRIME=SUPPRESSIVE ACT. I’ve personal withnessed his doing so all the way up to OT8 folders.
Another point I like to mention is the fact that when a person receiving scientology auditing cannot come up with any wrongdoing (Harmful acts) he/she would be labeled as Teethie weethie, yet this is exactly what The Scientology Orgs do all the time. They have never done anything bad.
This is a question for Mike: what was daily life like in The Hole? What was the general mood like amongst yourself and the other residents?
Well, considering that you posted this question about 4 months ago and Mike has not yet answered, allow me to say that Mike has described life in “The Hole” several times in several different places and IMHO, I would say the closest thing to life in The Hole would be life in a Nazi Concentration camp.
Of course, life in the Concentration camp would have been much worse because there would not have been people dying from starvation every day in The Hole and the torture would not have been as terrible (the torture in The Hole was mostly psychological while the torture in the Death Camps was straight out physical.
The important point about both places is they are both places people would want to avoid at all costs.
An unconscionable contract is one that is so one-sided that it is unfair to one party and therefore unenforceable under law. It is a type of contract that leaves one party with no real, meaningful choice, usually due to major differences in bargaining power between the parties
I just can’t seem to get my wits around why those departing the Co$ who are fair gamed and forced into “arbitration” can’t expose the fact of “unconscionable contract” to nullify the cult’s gambit of arbitration to avoid prosecution.
Do you and/or Leah have any data on this?
I have the same question. How is Scientology allowed to harass, stalk and commit crimes with immunity due to these agreements signed by people who are trying to leave? Why doesn’t local law enforcement take any action when there is clear evidence of wrong doing? How are crimes covered by under any agreement? Why can’t David Miscavige be served through other means than handing it to him – posting it on the door of his stated address, postings in the newspapers, etc?
What is your advice to someone being fair gamed? And is there a difference in the response and/or type of fair game someone who was/is a Scientology member versus a non member?
Also, did/do you find it difficult to trust people post Scientology though it appears as if personal relationships generally improve?
I want you to address more in depth about Marty Rathbun going back go scientology!
Yes please! So curious about this.
Several people have asked about this before and the best answer seems to be to visit Tony Ortega’s website at tonyortega.org where he discusses this in detail.
I’m sorry that I don’t have a link for you to the article you would want to read. But Tony has a decent search facility on his site and between that and Google, I think you should be able to find what you are looking for.
Good luck.