Happily, it’s SaTerraDay once again…
Scientology, Generalities, and Paranoia
In HCOPL, The Anti-Social Personality, The Anti-Scientologist, L. Ron Hubbard wrote that among his twelve attributes, the Anti-Social Personality “speaks only in very broad generalities. ‘They say…’ ‘Everybody thinks…’ ‘Everybody knows…’ and such expressions are in continual use, particularly when imparting rumor. When asked ‘Who is everybody…’ it normally turns out to be one source and from this source the Anti-Social Personality has manufactured what he or she pretends is the whole opinion of the whole society. This is natural to them since to them all society is a large hostile generality, against the Anti-Social Personality.”
Despite LRH’s pronouncement that generalities were the instruments of the anti-social personality, much of what he preached was based on assumptions plucked right out of the tool chests of these merchants of chaos. He made huge, broad-sweeping generalities about whole segments of society: psychiatry, the press, the military, the Internal Revenue Service, governmental workers, and the American Medical Association, to name a few. You’d almost think the man was paranoid!
Not only were these aforementioned industries evil, but so was everyone associated with them. If LRH got snubbed by someone within an organization, the whole organization was rotten. Everyone in it was a crook. Psychiatry in particular was loathed by LRH, “psychs” being the cause of all of mankind’s woes since the beginning of time. No doubt it was a psych who introduced the concepts of misunderstood words, overts, and masturbation.
LRH made no allowances for anyone connected to any organization that wasn’t one hundred percent behind Scientology and his technology. All persons were suppressive who disagreed with his methods. All were malevolent and evil who questioned his system. All were criminal who spoke out against him. If one belonged to one of these groups, he was actively working towards the destruction of planet Earth. If a person wanted to play ball with Scientology and go free, he had to disconnect from these organizations.
LRH didn’t confine his generalities to industries and organizations. He included women, minorities, and pretty much everyone else who didn’t conform to his white, male, European ancestry. He made generalizations about the whole history of man and the universe. All people were the same, born from that first postulate quadrillions of years ago. The cause of everyone’s problems was the same, too: MU’s, overts (crimes), and the inability to confront that which was right in front of our faces.
Since LRH never conducted any scientific research, he could only generalize based on his own neuroses and psychoses. If he suffered from some ailment, so did everyone else. If his troubles were due to his connection to a suppressive person, so was everyone else’s. If he couldn’t understand a particular concept due to misunderstood words, mankind suffered from MU’s, as well. If his headaches were caused by a lack of mass, so too were all student’s cluttered heads. If he’d traveled to Earth while frozen in a DC 8 at the orders of a galactic overlord, so did Tom, Dick, and Harry. If LRH was screwed up in the head…we were all screwed up in the head.
Hubbard generalized that if some form of regression therapy worked for him, it worked for everybody. All the time. Without fail. And if he was covered in disembodied souls, everyone else was similarly infested.
The man’s aptitude for generalizing was astonishing.
Last Words
Quoting again from LRH: “When asked ‘Who is everybody…’ it normally turns out to be one source and from this source the Anti-Social Personality has manufactured what he or she pretends is the whole opinion of the whole society. This is natural to them since to them all society is a large hostile generality, against the Anti-Social Personality.”
If the shoe fits…
Still not Declared,
Terra Cognita
Dear Mike Rinder and Foolproof,
If I may I would like to voice my opinion regarding scientific proof, science studies and statistical experiments as to the benefits/success of scientology, and auditing in particular. I am familiar with the ‘scientific method’ ( BS in Chemistry) and with scientology (Class 4,Clear, OT#3X).
Simply put, the spirit is not manifest whereas the scientific method deals ONLY in physical universe manifestations and measurements. It won’t work. It can’t work..
Now: The e-meter reads energy and energy changes. Energy is the (Lambda) via for spirit to manifest a causation in the physical universe. The problem here is where did that energy come from. Maybe from the spirit, maybe chakra energy, or Chi, or Ki, or the Meredians, maybe microwaves or a hormone/metabolism shift. Unseen is unseen. The ‘scientific method’ requires it be seen.
The majority of auditing produces changes in the PC’s subjective universe which seldom immediately manifests in the objective, physical universe. If it does produce a physical manifestation, it cannot then be repeated for an additional 5-10 times to ‘prove’ that the events are cause and effect related. One time events are not taken up by science. As-is-ing is a one time event.
There may be further difficulties than I am aware of but the above points show the unlikely hood that ‘science’ and scientology will ever come to an accord. Scientologists will say: .. if it’s true for you…: and scientists will say…. it’s all your belief/faith…. Hubbard took advantage of the times and wrapped himself and his religion in the robes of ‘science’. That science is now shredding that robe. Somewhat akin to the scientific revolution shredding the robes of the16th-18th century Catholic Church..
Jim – Thanks for posting this. I was having similar thoughts but didn’t bother to elaborate. Someone UTR (under the radar) and considering leaving the CoS and being told the entirety of the subject is nonsense wouldn’t be helpful. The current conversation generally focuses on the stupidities of the current organization.
Maybe someday scientific instruments will be able to detect auras. My guess is that pictures depicting a halo over the head of Jesus or an angel is a depiction of his or her aura. This blog doesn’t allow me to display my own halo. …….(joke!!)
I beg to differ. The problem is not “where did the energy come from?” Hubbard’s theories of spirits, theta, e-meters and “energy” are irrelevant for the purpose of any number of clinical trials. A psychotherapy is usually tested for its ability to treat something (eg. emotional/behavioural difficulties). It can be controlled, it can be compared (eg. a drug, placebo and/or another psychotherapy) and results can be obtained from any number of assessment tools and analyses. I see no reason why auditing can’t be tested in the same way.
If I am still allowed to post here, there is one thing that I forgot to mention about Hubbard’s research. A little known fact on this is that the New World Corps Org were his “test bed” so to speak, fairly certain from about the mid or late 70s up to the point of his death anyway, when I don’t know what happened to them after that. What would happen is that Hubbard would create a new Rundown or process to handle an aspect of people’s cases and then send over a draft or pilot set of HCOBs to the guy and gals at NWC, who would then run it and see what happens, and then send the results back to Hubbard, whereupon he would change stuff accordingly until the final release of the rundown wherein the “pilot” designation would be dropped from the HCOBs and they would become part of the released set of HCOBs for use with public and staff. All quite simple and straightforward.
The New World Corps personnel were the creme de la creme of auditors and C/Ses – splendid people. But not only in the technical areas, the admin areas and staff were also very on-policy as well. No HE&R or screaming rants etc. Tough but fair. If one ever needed an example of an Ideal Org then New World Corps was it. I think Mike said a while ago that they were disbanded and their staff scattered to the winds, which is a shame as they really were, the creme de la creme.
Wow, you really can invent history to fit your narrative. Creme de la creme? hardly. Pilot? You mean they were told to deliver X and then report glowingly how wonderful it was (KTL/LOC comes to mind, Super Power that didnt get released for 30 years…) These were solutions invented by Hubbard because NWC auditors were “untrainable”)
Nonsense. You probably never had any dealings with them and were off somewhere chasing BBC reporters. You have actually proved the point I made – they tested something, he looked at the results and acted accordingly. Because your mate Dave didn’t release Superpower had nothing to do with the 30+ year gap between. KTL and LOC were being run for years and at the same time that Superpower was sitting there which I know as I read the Superpower materials, so there was no excuse not to. Obviously they didn’t “report glowingly how wonderful it was” as they then got a handling. Which is exactly the point I have made.
You know not of which you speak.
It would probably surprise you to know that I (along with Ronnie and Bitty Miscavige and Barbara Newton) were the first graduates on earth of KTL. We were the actual pilot, done at Int. It was all photocopies of typed pages with handwritten corrections from Sue Koon and David Phillips. I then was in charge of exporting KTL to the FSO to get some people trained, as if you know anything about it you will know it was made a high crime by Hubbard for anyone who had not completed KTL to have anything to do with export or delivery to anyone else. There was nobody in CMO Int who had completed it, so I became KTL Pjt Ops.
I had plenty of dealings with NWC. They were the “we are not qualified to be in Snr CS Int Office at Int” people who were relegated to PAC to endlessly train as “NWC auditors” most of whom ended up being sent on failed “Universe Corps” teams to “SH Size” orgs.
But why bother arguing with your superior IQ and know-it-all certainty? This happened long before I was involved in the Guardian’s Office takeover which in turn was two decades before I had any interaction with the BBC.
You are entertaining and I like the fact that you comment as you are a reminder of what real scientology is about.
Fair enough, I bow to your experience in this matter. But why then did Hubbard use the NWC for testing then if they were not qualified to be in Senior C/S INT office? Such seems to be a contrary fact, does it not? They certainly weren’t the worst auditors in the world, which your text somewhat implies, and they certainly weren’t average either.
My comment about chasing BBC reporters was made in the same vein as your last paragraph – I knew that came much later.
Regardless of all that, they were a great bunch of people.
I am sure you can figure this out for yourself. They were guinea pigs. Doesn’t mean they weren’t nice people. Doesn’t mean they were all bad auditors. In the end, they were considered by Hubbard to be failures, just like the original bunch brought to Silver to train who could not get through TR’s. There is SO much you don’t know and yet you assert your “knowledge” with the certainty of someone on an LSD trip insisting there are spiders on the walls.
It’s entertaining, but not very enlightening.
I believe this is a discussion that you have more DATA on something than I do, as I have acknowledged. Your experience at the top of the Scientology tree is also never in question, granted (although you are one of these “admin types” that Hubbard warned Mayo about – haha!) Now because I tear to pieces the “technical” postings from people that you allow to post technical garbage on here, you take every opportunity to discredit me because you have more DATA on something than I do. People can read between the lines you know. And possessing DATA does not imply intelligence.
There you go again. You are so certain you are right, even when you don’t have data…
I guarantee you I have audited more NOT’s pre-OT’s than you. By that I don’t mean Solo — I mean actually auditing people on the steps of NOTs or on NOTs repairs.
So, how many pre-OT’s HAVE you audited on NOTs Mr. “Tech Type”.
I have told you I am impressed with your intelligence. Mine, not so much. You keep bringing it up. Your superior IQ is plain for all to observe from your comments.
Mike Foolproof is like a endangered species . And this is the zoo , and foolproof is the number 1 exhibit .
He is just so entertaining .
Now this is interesting. You don’t state when you audited these people on NOTs. I assume it was either when you were on some sort of RPF gig in the Church (due to your Exec postings at other times) or if not then after you left the Church. But I thought you didn’t believe in BTs or at least supported the general theme here that OTIII was a load of baloney? But if you audited these people on NOTs then you must feel that it works then? What will Terra, Brian, Wynski and all the other non-believers in this theme think now then eh? Or is there some sort of contrary fact floating about here somewhere then?
As to the remarks on my IQ, I answered your original attempt to belittle the fact that Scientology raises IQs by stating that mine was not only raised but went through the roof. And then you make 2 further (disparaging and poo-pooing) comments about it, which you can see further down the page. I didn’t raise it after my original comment, and only answered your further comments on it.
As for Gary Webb’s remark, yes, it does feel like I am in a zoo here sometimes, except that the apes have taken over a la Planet of the Apes and are looking in on me. Quite alright, you can beat your chest and carry on.
And as for entertainment, the ludicrous “technical” opinions uttered in some comments are well, outstandingly funny. I have sometimes almost “spontaneously combusted” with laughter as I sat on my back porch in a Lucifer get-up with trident (and of course without a meter) and only took up some reads, the ones that I liked the look of, that is.
I will (with your allowing as it is your web site) only and sometimes comment when someone raises nonsense on technical issues here. The situation in the Church with heavy ethics, staff beatings and beratings, donations etc. I have no problem with. Even disconnection I think can be better managed. So it is not a black/white scenario with me on these issues but certainly shades of grey, contrary to the general opinion, including you now it seems, that some have of me.
So, you didnt answer the question. Have you EVER audited a single person on NOTS Mr “Tech Type”?
Of course I believed in BT’s and the infallibility of LRH. Like every scientologist. But at some point there is too much cognitive dissonance.
How about answering the question about how many people you have audited on NOTs (and where) rather than trying to deflect by assuming even more “facts” about me.
Your IQ is crashing as this conversation continues.
Yes, I have audited people on NOTs.
Can you be more specific then on what you take your handy little deflecting statement of “cognitive dissonance” to mean exactly? The statement is a nice catch-all for avoiding or (not) saying – what?
And yet again there is your little barbed comment about my IQ.
However, can we not declare a truce on all this now? I will even admit to being an egotistical asshole – haha!, so Wynski and the gang can rejoice now. Of course my experience in Orgs cannot compare to yours and I wrongly assumed that, due to your Exec positions held, that you would have had nothing to do with NWC, or any tech lines etc. but then I doubt that many others would have known that about your experiences either.
So, you are ex-SO. Why are you no longer in the Sea Org?
You know that’s what Ron wanted. For you to be in the Sea Org…
Perhaps you’re not all you pretend to be.
Fool, back in the day when NWC was in the early stages of SO KTL pilot when you said you were on it, they did NOT pull any NOTs auditors to do it. (they were cash machines in short supply at FSO & AOLA). Mike had JUST sent a bunch of them to AOSH ANZO.
So, which did you just lie about? Being a NOTs auditor or, being on the KTL back then?
No-Wynski, you blathering idiot, you should really stop dubbing in things to try and score some silly point. When did I say I was on the KTL pilot (I never was – your misduplication as usual) and WHEN did I say I audited NOTs? I never stated when. I could sometimes feel sorry for you in your ridiculous and desperate attempts to attack me, but those days have long gone. Why don’t you go and M9 my comments, Terra can help, should keep you busy instead of rushing around trying to find something which only ends up embarrassing yourself in your haste to invalidate.
Are you going to answer my question about why you are no longer in the SO?
I am curious as to your actual status and how much credence to give to your comments.
I do thank you for stimulating today’s post.
Wow, I came VERY close to the truth of the lie on that question to Fool. He exploded, frothing at the mouth. So, you claim to know all about the KTL pilot (which was confidential and NO ONE not on it was given data) but, you weren’t on it.
Um, okay. There is a maxim which will make your future answers easier.
“If you tell the truth, you don’t have to remember anything” Mark Twain
Actually, Mike, you haven’t answered my question to you of why don’t believe in BTs any more, attempting to hide behind the wonderfully deflecting statement of “cognitive dissonance”. When you can be a bit more specific on that then I might be more specific on my answer. But it’s your turn first. I wonder what Terra and Brian and the gang are going to think, about your truthful answer? Yes this “cognitive dissonance” is a wonderful thing admittedly, one can brush off any awkward question with its use and all can nod their heads sagely and say, “yes, yes ‘cognitive dissonance’, says it all” – but of course it doesn’t say a thing.
As to No-Wnyski, frothing at the mouth I leave to you. Again where did I say I knew anything about the KTL pilot? If you read what I said I said I was “told” by the NWC people. Suggest you go back to school and learn to read. Go off now and feverishly look through my posts to see what I said, Huckleberry. Gives your life some meaning eh?
OK, in appreciation of your inspiration for today’s post: I woke up. I had been indoctrinated since a child to believe everything Ron said. That included total faith in the E-meter (which you said “By itself does nothing”) which I ultimately came to realize was absurd. It happened while auditing Solo NOTs as a matter of fact. Hey, if a Clear mocks up his own reactive mind, then OT’s must be mocking up their BT’s and Clusters. Or at the very least, agreeing that they are there and are cause over me. That was the start of the end. And from there, as I inspected more and more aspects of it, I came to understand the extent of the deception.
But I don’t care what people believe. That I don’t believe this is true any longer is irrelevant to your beliefs. You can believe anything you want. You can believe the E-meter actually DOES tell you what is and isn’t real (I don’t have to believe OT III, all I have to do is look at the meter reads and that tells me it’s real).
Now, I suspect Terra and Brian and anyone else here is going to find this perfectly acceptable. Because it’s the truth.
Wonder if you are willing to do the same. I doubt it.
Ok Mike. But the EP of Solo NOTs is not “I am mocking up my BTs and thus they never existed except in my own mind”. This idea has been bandied about over the net for years – I even read one somewhere that said something like there are “(secret) BTs that exist only in one’s own mind” and “there is a central core to the NOTs case” which is a similar false datum and originally came from the same “source”. I knew both statements were nonsense and thus double-checked this with someone who would definitely know and he told me and confirmed that both statements were balderdash. There is so much false data abounding on the net about NOTs.
As to your question, I was never in the SO – fortunately.
That’s not Hubbard’s EP. It was MY EP. What is true for me is true for me. N’est ce-pas?
And if you were never in the Sea Org you were not a NOTs auditor and never audited anyone on NOTs?
As you said, you can believe whatever version of NOTs that you like.
As to auditing people on NOTs, I am sure you can figure out what is meant, which, unless you did the Class IX course and audited in the Flag or an AO HGC, would be the same experience as mine.
Thank you for letting me know I have your blessing. My version is a LOT cheaper and a lot less heartache.
As for “auditing people on NOTs” – I do not have a clue what you are talking about unless you mean Solo auditing? Please clarify specifically. You are the one that started this with YOUR assertions.
You do know there are other places than Flag where you can train as a Sea Org member. Like at Int base. I actually audited other Sea Org members. Sounds like you audited your BT’s.
Looks like when it finally comes down to it, this “admin type” is more of a “tech type” than you who so loudly proclaims your superiority over the “admin types” (let alone the “wogs” who are hardly even the same species as the enlightened homo novis you claim to be).
No, I’ve done both.
Well, if you audited in an HGC at INT Base or you did read it drill it do it in an RPF-type environment (wouldn’t be the Hole though from my limited understanding of what went down there?), then good for you!
But now here’s a contrary fact. You seem to be on the one hand now proud to be known as a “tech type” yet stating that the tech doesn’t work as per nearly all of your other articles, and going into agreement with the Terras and Brians of this world. Or is it that my as-yet-unstated premise, but is a good extrapolation from my original premise, that “admin types” despite training or whatever, nevertheless will show their true colors in the end and say “the tech doesn’t work”? Or have I not read that right?
Mike I am bored with this now. It is getting neither of us anywhere. I won’t reply any more even to your reply to this and you can let Wynski sink his teeth into my remarks to satiate his rabid appetite and I won’t reply to him either.
I am in the same place as David Mayo was. Is that a contrary fact or would you also categorize him as an “admin type”?
I can only conclude from your evasive answers that you studied and audited NOTs in the “Independent field”?
Mike Rinder, I cherish the stories I hear in the comments.Filling in the blanks of the past and different orgs and what people did is very helpful to my leaving arc.
Learning more about the New World Corps and its relationship to the much promised never seen, (by me) Universe Corps was very interesting. I know we have seen stories about your time in OSA, but hearing about these other times is just great. I’d love to hear more.
I guess I have to thank Foolproof for bringing this up. So thanks Foolproof, I enjoy the back and forth and the jewel that is a story from Mike.
Yes, Clearly, thanks for your somewhat theta-ful comment – I always raised stats on whichever post I was on. Mike should ring up Dave and ask him to send the Universe Corps to me, except I don’t need them any more.
Fool, you are a complete idiot. NWC did NOT conduct testing on Hubtard’s theories and deliver scientific reports reports to him as to its efficacy. They simply ran whatever he wrote up and sent back sunshine. I was there with Marge when she was doing it for KTL
Yes, but his superior IQ and perception makes him assert his literal “know-best”. He knows everything about everything. It’s quite amusing to watch.
You seem to have some sort of button on my high IQ, and seem to be attacking it at every opportunity, which is quite amusing to discern? Did Dave tell you too often that you were an idiot?
Exactly Mike. I’m so glad Mike that you allow this petri dish view of a fundamentalist cult member for the never in’s.
Well I was there as well and such is not what the NWC people told me.
Really Fool? when, what class room? Who was your Sup?
And why would you listen rather than LOOK for yourself as to what the process was? That is beyond stupid.
The idea that scn reveals mysteries of the universe achievable only through scn remains irritating.
I wonder if Foolproof can explain to me how Rock Slams came about? He seems to have a lot of faith in e-meters. Was there a period of time in which e=meters were made with cheap components which caused Rock Slams, which LRH mis-interpreted to mean something other than cheap electronic components? I believe a lot of good people lost responsible positions in Scientology during the Rock Slam witch hunt years.
I’m just wondering how anyone could rely on such a device unless they had it produced to their own specs and checked out and calibrated regularly, like anyone using any other measuring instrument would do. Heck, when I was in manufacturing engineering we had to send all our 18″ steel rulers in for calibration, and if they failed to measure to standard (which happened about 3% of the time) they would be sent back to the manufacturer and replaced with rulers that met spec – and the rulers were the least of our measuring devices.
To answer this (about R/Ses) is quite simple – put Wynski on a meter and lo and behold – there you will have your answer! (I’ll let Terra off – his TA would be just rising, and rising and rising…)
Yes there was a period in the SO in the 70s I believe when a few people misinterpreted the R/S and quite a few were mishandled because of it, plus R/Ses on a Clear are a different kettle of fish – there’s a later HCOB on that. Cheap components? Never heard of that one.
As for the checking of the meters, well, the Silver Certifying line was set up. I am sure there are a few dudes on here who worked there at some time or knows of what happened, but yes, AFAIK, meters were checked every 2 years. The auditor himself calibrates the meter periodically.
“The meter by itself does nothing…”
My. How superior you think you are.
A little humility/self reflection would make you less unlikeable.
So I make a joke (fairly sure Wynski and Terra took it in their stride, certainly compared to what Wynski states about me) and then simply answer the questions above, and now, because you gave forth a list of things which Scientologists should aspire to and to which I ticked the boxes, you are somewhat peeved that I could and did so and thus state the above and that I should be more modest or humble or whatever. And I really don’t give a damn whether I am liked or not.
And it seems that I or rather my contrary comments, are quite liked here, by some anyway.
Fool, you would be categorized by Hubbard as a Joker and Degrader. He sent people to the RPF for less J&D than you engage in. It’s not lighthearted joking, it’s the really covert stuff that non-scientologists would classify as Passive/Aggressive, but in your parlance would be 1.1. The difference between you and Wynski name-calling is that he is overtly hostile, but more importantly, he is not holding himself out as some superior being.
I am glad you feel you are liked. I think you are a fine example of how a scientologist acts and people can draw their own conclusions.
So now you label me “Fool”, a la Wynski, and then 1.1. This always happens when I state a few truths and piss on someone’s supposedly technical bonfire. Ironically if one reads HCOB Jokers and Degraders we see the following:
“It is an old principle that people who do not understand something occasionally
make fun of it.
A recent investigation, however, into the backgrounds and case condition of a
small handful of people who were joking about their posts and those around
them showed a somewhat more sinister scene.
Each of these persons fell into one or more of the following categories:
1. Were rock slammers (some List 1).
2. Were institutional-type cases.
3. Were “NCG” (meaning no case gain) (the only cause of which is continuous
present time overts).
4. Were severely PTS (potential trouble source) (connected to rock slammers).
It might be supposed that misunderstood word phenomena could also be part
of this.”
Now if you are proposing that a goodly majority of comments and commenters on this blog that and who are constantly deriding and attempting to belittle Hubbard and Scientology are not composed of this sort of stuff, i.e. joking and degrading, misunderstoods and downright nastiness, then, well, good luck with that.
All of my comments on this blog are in response to Joking and Degrading comments from others and/or misunderstandings on the subject. Actually most of my comments give some sort of “balance” to the myriad J&Ding comments on here
And it’s not really hard to feel superior to that!
The difference between you and me and most others here is that you still think quoting the words of LRH prove you right. Because of course eveything he says is right.
And that in your mind makes you think you are superior.
That’s why I called you a fool.
Yes Mike,
I think it’s because there was just enough truth in the basic, initial concepts (like always understanding the meaning of words, which can take you a long way) to get folks to “buy in”.
So many people have spent so much time and money, that they want to believe in the tech, and blame all of the absurdities of the Church on DM alone. Not true! I do think that R believed his own insanities to a point, but he was also ruthless; DM simply mastered the ruthless quality.
At the age of fourteen I was a new Messenger on Duty (and fairly new to Scientology in general) and R told me that because I was a Commodore’s Messenger, I was automatically OT. This was the “God” in living person, that I had clapped for daily in the Communications Course, and whatever the next course I was taking was, when recruited for CMO “Secret Unit”. This now tells me that R didn’t totally believe in his own tech. I wasn’t even “Clear”, nor had I completely read Dianetics, and here at fourteen I was OT!
There was no time in the CMO at that point to worry about one’s path “up the bridge”. As a Messenger, you were simply expected to know everything, run organizations, and work your *ss off in general. I wasn’t allowed the time to complete the High School education I had paid for (distance learning; then by mail) to be allowed to arrive at SU, let along receive anything other than security checks in the way of auditing.
I still have never read Dianetics… But I ensured many, many copies were sold through the Publications Org back in the late 70’s, early 80’s.
Have a good night all,
Lost CMO
CMO,
Thanks for that insight. We all ‘contributed to the motion’ of Ron’s game. (Including CCHs)
So this word clearing concept, I think it was a distraction from ‘concept’ clearing. LRH wanted people to study ‘his’ words, so he wrote up procedures and methods to clear them.
He did not want people clearing his concepts, as Mike just did. That would have caused debate and ultimately a questioning of LRH’s authority. Couldn’t have had that to be in a cult of personality.
Scientology has the Tone scale, but where is the Ego scale? I mean, to call someone a suppressive person for being a anti-social personality, but then totally ignore your own faults? That has to be Ego 40.
Ah! I see the old “Scientific Research” chestnut, or rotten apple crawling with maggots, is now getting an airing and this again is one of those uninspected and glib statements that anti-Scientologists love to prattle about as if it somehow convinces them that Scientology can’t work without it and of course without ever having given any serious thought to the idea. To wit:
1. Does anyone believe that non-Scientologists or rather non-trained Scientologists could conduct serious research into the subject? And without any preconceived ideas or bias? First signs of struggling for an answer here.
2. What qualifications should any non-biased researchers have? Psychiatrists? Vested interest. Someone who doesn’t know what a comm cycle is? Or be able to read the meter? Struggling for real now guys and gals are we not?
3. Name me another therapy that is beneficial. Now name or quote the “scientific research” that has gone into this. The struggle has conceded.
4. Actually, let’s cut to the chase here, name any other workable therapy of the mind. Game over by now!
5. Most “scientific research” in the fields of mental or physical health are sponsored lock, stock and barrel (of LSD and Prozac) by the pharmaceutical and mental “health” industries. So there won’t be any joy there then will there.
6. Have the mental health fields ever been subjected to “scientific research” and any form of testing? If so, (but they haven’t been), let’s see what they come up with eh? Better results from lobotomies?
7. Has anyone asked the probably hundreds of thousand of people now who have received auditing, or training for that matter, what they thought of it? Or is that not enough “evidence” for you?
8. The only way one could validly test auditing is by monitoring what goes on in an HGC delivered by properly trained Scientologists and by survey or independent unbiased viewing of the results, most of which in my time anyway, were splendid for the recipients.
9. Scientology actually admits that in a small percentage of cases, some cases do sometimes fail. But there is always a cure for that as well, something which no other therapy can muster either.
10. We won’t even bother going into the A-J aspects of cases. To explain: This is like saying that someone who goes to see a psychologist but doesn’t want the therapy or is refusing to be treated is going to get better! (Actually of course in this case the irony is he probably would get better by simply having no treatment from such charlatans.)
So, you can all bow down now to the great but non-existent God – “Scientific Research”! Well you can if you like.
You were sort of on track until you got to number 7 when you didn’t just shoot yourself in the foot, you blew off your legs.
As for “serious research,” virtually anyone could tabulate results as to the claims for auditing and training if they could get access to a large enough number of people willing to be honest in their responses — hell, scientology could do that if they wanted to demonstrate the efficacy of auditing. How many illnesses, headaches etc etc do Clears get vs non-Clears? Is the incidence of the flu greater or lesser among scientologists than the general population? Are scientologists IQ’s above average — do they actually increase with auditing? Do scientologists earn more money than the average wog? Are they more or less likely to be promoted due to their competence in handling life than wogs? Are their children happier and more successful?
You could EASILY document the actual truth of a LOT of claims without having to get into knowing how to operate an e=meter. These sorts of studies are done ALL THE TIME by statisticians.
Why doesn’t scientology want such a study to be done? If it was proven that these claims were true by an independent organization, even if it cost a million dollars, it would be FAR more effective for recruitment and inflow than buying ads on the Super Bowl… The answer as to why not is pretty easy to figure out.
But as to your point 7 — people don’t need to be ASKED, they ORIGINATE all over the internet about their experiences with auditing. Many of them are VERY unhappy. Are you now saying this is the sort of evidence that should be listened to? I am rather surprised that you are willing to agree that this constitutes evidence of the efficacy of scientology auditing? Or is it only evidence if their statements are positive?
And what if they were positive at one point and they now say they made it up because it was what was expected of them?
Of course, Hubbard built in an excuse for all failures in scientology. The 100% workable tech doesn’t work if you are an SP, or you are PTS, or you have a skipped gradient, or out-lists, or bad TR’s or, or, or. This is one of the most ingenious things about the tech — it is offered as 100% workable, except when it isn’t — and that is your fault. It works 100% of the time on the people that agree that it works on them and works 0% of the time on the people who don’t agree it works on them. But they don’t count, right?
You do know there are LOT more people who have left scientology, disillusioned and dissatisfied than there are happy-camper scientologists? By a factor of at least 10. Maybe more like 100.
And that would mean scientology’s 100% workable tech actually works between 10% and 1% of the time.
I am not disputing that Scientology as an organization has been mismanaged. This is what happens when “know bests” admin types, who are poorly trained, start meddling with and getting rid of the tech trained terminals in Orgs worldwide on the false premise of “the blind leading the blind”. Hell, these Admin types can’t even duplicate HCO Policy Letters and ignore them as well most of the time in their haste and panic to get non-existent stats up. Both auditing and training have now been somewhat corrupted. No dispute on that. So I made the point that sometimes the “tech” doesn’t work – but in every case I investigated this was because someone had altered it. Every time! What Quals are doing now in the Church I haven’t got a clue!
As for “independent” research, I have covered this in my points above and if Quals were working worldwide there would be no need to tabulate all this. And Scientologists (me somewhat included) are indeed and admittedly a snooty lot who don’t care a fig about what uninformed and untrained and already critical people state about the subject. And actually all the tabulation etc. already exists, even in the sometimes strained success stories of these days. I always vividly remember a statement of Hubbard’s in Dianetics Today book that (not an exact quote but) “if we are visiting a zoo we should not really worry about what the apes are thinking of us”. Harsh isn’t it? The reader can now gasp at the effrontery of my remark – nothing like a gasp of incredulity is there?
Now, I am never ill. I don’t get headaches. I don’t get somatics. I have a MENSA level IQ of over 150 at last count, well above Einstein – haha! It has probably increased since then as well. My IQ has increased by over 25 points from when I first started in Scientology. I earn lots of money. I have held manager positions in my profession and have always been promoted. I live in a huge house overlooking a lake with my wife. My children are now adults. Etc. etc. And I am a well-trained and thoroughly and well audited Scientologist.
As to “blowing off my legs” you should have done that to Miscavige and then we wouldn’t have had all this nonsense. You could have always blamed psychiatry!
One thin you forgot to mention that all good scientologists have. A self-importance and ability to self-congratulate that is unassailable.
So you don’t think it would be a good idea for Scientology to hire some independent statisticians and sociologists to conduct such a study of results so they could be published? You seem to believe the results would be astonishing and publicizing them would truly lead to floods of people wanting scientology? You don’t think that would be a good thing?
Well, you were the one who started about “doing well”, I simply replied personally on that one. Sorry to disappoint that I didn’t fail miserably but passed the test splendidly! And I should also include all of my well-audited and well-trained friends as well in that list, most of whom list similar things. Actually the opposite is true for true Scientologists – we can see our outpoints and are humble and modest enough to think “yeah, I want to remove that or increase my ability in that”. Surprising when one views it in that way eh? Most can’t self-inspect enough (as that involves confronting the bank) to be able to extrovert when all of the points have been “tidied up”. In fact most of the anti commenters on here wouldn’t dare to look at themselves too deeply and they “know they are right”.
As to independent surveys etc. no, not bothered. As Hubbard somewhere stated (and I believe him of course – haha) there will only ever be a smallish percentage of people who will become Scientologists. IMO it is people who can read (Scientology) books but then that is also Hubbard’s opinion in his “Books Make Booms” policy. Saying that despite the seeming drop in later generation’s literacy rate, there should still be many millions who can do so. And – funnily enough – all of my friends who are doing well – can also read books. For instance they have all read DMSMH. Many can’t seem to get through it, in fact most of these admin types don’t. I wonder how many of the Execs at INT Base have read it fully? I have just realized that perhaps one thing that Miscavige did was to get people reading the basic books, but I wasn’t there to see what happened with all that and if it was actually successful.
There is truth in the fact that if numbers are dwindling then the tech is out – but that I have already stated. As does Hubbard. The unfortunate thing is, is that on top of that the Church admin tech with the “donations industry”, unnecessary heavy ethics etc. is also out which is throwing an even heavier spanner into the works.
Your logic certainly indicates a superior IQ.
You do know DNSNH was not intended for “admin types” it was for the “man in the street”. But apparently now most people aren’t going to get it according to you and Hubbard(?) but it works 100% of the time.
Still haven’t answered why no survey. Your best response is “I don’t care”? Or “it doesn’t matter”?
Your logic is failing.
Yes, my logic does indicate a superior IQ. I cannot follow the juxtapositioning or logic of your arguments. DMSMH for the man in the street? Don’t recall that. You certainly don’t need a degree in psychology that is true, but you still have to be able to read.
Survey? Well how about an “independent” survey on all those natterers here about their untold crimes and overts, vested interests, payments to criticize, misunderstoods, religious affiliations, drug company employment history, links to psychiatry, links to government agencies, links to the AMA, false data and other of the manifold reasons, all covered in HCO Policy Letters as you know. That would be fair then would it not? Would they agree to a close inspection of why they are against Scientology (technology)? Nah! Let’s examine these wise guys a bit closer then? This coin that you are spinning in the air as if it justifies your statements has two sides then.
But leaving the other side of the “coin” for the moment, yes a survey would be ok one supposes but as I say it is a) never going to happen, b) it would hardly ever be fair or unbiased, c) as I said the success stories are there anyway. I remember, not that often, but sometimes people would not write a success story so we found out why, corrected the out-tech and then all was hunky dory. Terrible eh?
“I have a MENSA level IQ of over 150 at last count, well above Einstein – haha! It has probably increased since then as well. My IQ has increased by over 25 points from when I first started in Scientology. I earn lots of money.”
Yeah, and LRH was a war hero and nuclear physicist.
Yes, intelligence is a wonderful thing. Makes one really discerning and able to evaluate importances.
Intelligence, and critical thinking abilities, do not necessarily go hand-in-hand.
You might want to look at a list of logical fallacies, and see how many of them, like strawman arguments, you consistently commit:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Then, look into cognitive biases for errors of perception and judgment you fall into – the graphic Cognitive Bias Codex that is on the Wikipedia page, is also a great starting point:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
Scientology, unfortunately, indoctrinates people into habits and patterns of thought that that fall prey to logical fallacies and cognitive biases, not ones that improve and free their thinking and judgment.
Strawman arguments eh? Ok, let’s hear them. Will it be like one spontaneously combusts if one messes up OTVIII. Or Hubbard was Lucifer? Or one only takes up meter reads according to one’s fancy? Or Hubbard hates farmers? Or OTIII is best run without a meter on the back porch whilst whistling Dixie? The authors of the myriad other nonsenses that people pass off as their assumptions as to what Scientology is, should perhaps read these things. Or are you saying these things aren’t nonsense? Do you believe them? Well, if so I won’t be taking any advice or recommendations of what to read from you. And if you don’t believe them, then please direct your remarks to these people – they obviously need it far more than I do!
Yes, we have seen some of the examples of people moaning about it all that you mention commenting on here. Terra with his MisUs and selective taking of meter reads, Brian with his “OTIII” on his back porch gig, the Luciferian “OTVIII” theory (sic) etc. Now the “etc.” is not because I can’t think of any more – I have noted scores of similar things from the people adversely commenting on here. And the old adage comes into play of “you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink”.
But more importantly I know from my own experience that ALL of these cases, well, except the rabid ones who are committing continuous present time overts on Scientology and/or Hubbard, can be sorted out, but even for the rabid ones (like Wynski – haha!) there is a solution. And actually when you say it is “all over the net” we are probably looking at a few hundred (if that many even), over the decades now, who are moaning. They just constantly moan and prattle and now they have an outlet – the internet, for their complaints, so I would say that it only seems that there are “many” – but in relation to how many who are satisfied, even in the current Church? And there are only a few on here who are constantly moaning about “how bad it all was”. I will concede that it does SEEM, despite my painting of a better picture that there is more dissatisfaction, granted, but the extent to which you are alluding is only based on the fact that you concentrate on such guys and gals, and their oft-repeated and incessant rantings.
You don’t actually believe there are just a few hundred people who have “failed” in Scientology. If you know anything about the subject as you profess you know that in the 60s and 70s at least there were orgs and missions that were quite busy. Hell I listened to the roll call in the BC at ASHO Fdn in 1976 and it was 200 people. Where are they? Hey Hubbard said Boston had gotten 2% of the population into its CF in 1972. Where are they? They can’t scramble together 50 people today. They couldn’t in 1980 either so it’s not just Miscavige. There are hundreds of thousands of people in Org CFs – people that took a service and didn’t continue. They are all failed cases. There are a lot more of them by a factor of 10 if not 100 than there are successes.
You still didn’t answer my question about an independent survey being done?
Foolproof,
Regarding #7: I was around 1966-1983 and got great gains with training and auditing— along with 40-60 others i was connected to. Only 3 hung in past 1984, hoping and hoping, and… If you could impinge on COB to restore the church to the mock-up of the early 70s you just might get ‘it’ going again. What exists right now should be disbanded and the criminals prosecuted for their activities against humanity.
I fully agree, contrary to what many people on here think of me, or would like to pigeon-hole me with. I should become ED INT – I’d sort it all out in a few months – haha! Dave could invite me to take over and he could go and retire in Upper Monrovia or wherever. It’s just as Hubbard stated to Mayo that he had to watch out for the “Admin types” before they took over. But alas he didn’t.
By the way, I found the best time was after 78, when he made the NOTs, NED, FPRD, KTL stuff and in 1980 I think when he reversed the Grades below Dianetics, where they should have been.
jim, there are independent orgs in the field doing just that. However, they are also empty because the tek doesn’t work and the Boomers are over 19 years old now.
Foolproof:
Was your comment intentionally in the valence of a OSA troll? I agree with Mike that #7 was REALLY transparent, as there aren’t that many folks still IN the organization calling itself the church of Scientology.I bet more folks are reading Terra’s post and nodding knowingly than could be called “in good standing” with the cos’s hierarchy. Many reading could be both, just UTR, a safer place than the one I’m occupying, even though most of my neighbors have known me for 5 decades and would laugh in the faces of any who might want to D/A me as being a life-long criminal, an anti-religionist, wife-beater, or anything of that ilk. If OSA were to try their usual tricks, they might be welcomed for injecting some humor into their day. That’s why I don’t hide behind a pseudonym.
I have stated time and time again that yes the tech may be corrupted now, far more so than previously. Nothing to do with OSA and trolling. The only trolling here is that from many of the other commenters with their puerile name calling of Hubbard and silly little tete a tetes among each other – and also about me by the way. Show me something that I have written that could be called “trolling”. This whole site or rather the comments are just full of trolling! What planet are you on?
There is always a specific purpose to a clinical trial. Psychotherapies (such as CBT, DBT, et al) are typically tested for their ability to alleviate specific emotional/behavioural conditions (not to see how clean one’s “space” is or how many dynamics can be “expanded”). Whilst it’s impossible to double-blind a psychotherapy, bias can still be reduced in part with other (random) controls. Using various questionnaires, assessments, imaging, follow-up studies, further trials, meta analysis and systematic review, results can be obtained, evaluated and reviewed.
It may not be perfect but it’s a darn sight better than an enforced, one-side-only “success story” about how warm and fuzzy someone feels.
Well said MWestern
Terra – could you be a bit more specific with YOUR generalities about Hubbard?
Now, after reading your article Terra, along with the mostly inane (I refrained from using “insane”) comments below, I shall explain a few things to clear up your MisUs, Method 7 word-clearing style even though you are not foreign AFAIK, and even though Miscavige has apparently cancelled this HCOB, and we’ll see how we go from there:
Firstly this oft-spouted generalized “theory” in anti-Scientology circles that Hubbard foisted his case off on to the rest of the universe. This is a fairly recent idea which has been latched on to by various people, without of course any real inspection as to what is meant, in the hope that various mugs will believe it, and of course they do in their glee to find any disparaging aspect of Scientology or Hubbard. So, what specific aspect of Hubbard’s case would this be then? Headaches? Somatics? Missed withhold symptoms? Upsets? Problems? Inability to communicate? Etc. etc. Seems like the whole human race has these things, do they not? So what you are saying is that when there is a read on a meter with something to do with these or anything else then the auditor should say “we will ignore that as LRH has had headaches and we don’t want to evaluate for you!” Terra, your (or some idiot’s) theory is laughable and easily disproven.
Now, as to the IRS, anyone with any savvy and able to think in concepts, knows LRH was not interested in the opinion of a typist in the IRS typing pool. You’re right – she (or he) is probably not evil. But again anyone with any sense knows that what Hubbard meant was the overriding policies of the people at the top of the IRS tree, probably influenced by other agencies (WFMH etc.), not their chauffeurs or cleaning ladies, or even the middle managers although some of them will be somewhat aware of the general direction of IRS policy.
The same principle (of not all involved are SPs but the general policy decided from the top is), again applies to the other legal bodies you have mentioned – the military, the press (not too sure about them though – ha!), the AMA etc. Now I will simply ask the question would anyone on here, without any anti-Scientology basis, state that the press, the military, the AMA etc. are innocent of charges against them? So the press don’t lie, the AMA don’t cover up the dangers of drugs and the malpractices of doctors, the military don’t promote wars etc. etc. Come on now, don’t be so daft.
Now, as to psychiatry again more or less the same principle as above applies, but less so. There probably are 2 or 3 (haha!) psychiatrists among the hundreds of thousands that do actually do something beneficial for their patients – by doing NOTHING for them, or just letting them have a little “chat”! So electro-convulsive therapy (still carried out in this day and age), ritalin, prozac, lobotomies, trans-orbital leucotomies, gestalt therapy, reichian therapy, primal scream “treatment”, Equine Therapy (for those in Caligula’s valence) are all worthy therapies eh? Even with Freud now it has been proven that he made up his (sexually-oriented and “thrilling”) “case histories” to make himself popular. I see recently that some psychiatrists are now again recommending LSD for some of their victims, sorry, patients. And all what I mention above is the tip of the iceberg, as you well know. However, I would recommend psychiatric treatment for many of the commenters on here – I am sure they deserve such “care”!
As for the old chestnut about disembodied spirits such is not worth discussing until people have a reality on such by going up through the grade chart. So I’ll leave that one as it is pointless discussing it – it is about the same level of trying to have a sane discussion about the made up Jesuit theory of “New OTVIII” designed to drive Catholics and other “god-fearing folks” away from Scientology and into the Catholic donations trays by stating that Hubbard was Lucifer and one would spontaneously combust if you did “OTVIII” wrong. And anyway, Brian, who did OTIII on his back porch without a meter for 3 weeks and no previous Grades, can fill you in all the juicy details as to where it went wrong for him. Should be scintillating, if not “electrifying” and you can all have a little titter about it and nod your heads sagely.
Last,and probably least, I would like to know from Ms Haven what was the exact disparaging quote Hubbard made about farmers? Or are we going to find out that this is Ms. Haven’s MisUs now? Any port in a storm of entheta eh?
That’ll do for the moment!
In general this topic is a generality generalizing the generalities of scn, generally speaking of course. In general it’s an opinion piece.
From the topic, “Since LRH never conducted any scientific research, he could only generalize based on his own neuroses and psychoses.”
Why do scientific research on something which isn’t scientific? Speaking in generalties of course, scn is or at least was a self improvement and self awareness course. If someone didn’t gain any improvement or awareness then they didn’t.
I don’t recall auditing any Hubbardian neuroses but then I didn’t pursue the OT levels. I’ve read about them.
If I may be specific, generally speaking, you are generally correct. Specifically the last paragraph was generally correct, generally anyway.
The insane Fool whined, “Terra – could you be a bit more specific with YOUR generalities about Hubbard?”
No need as they have been well documented on this site and countless others. When one is going over well documented material on a person it is not needed.
Only insane cult member trolls request such rehashing of well known facts about Hubtard these days.
Member? Never was AFAIK. I bet they got you for a few thousand bucks though Wyn eh? All that help you gave to Dave! Shame on you!
Most of this blog (not site) is all about generalities.
I nearly peed myself with laughter when Wynski boasted he had read the OT levels so did not need to do them.
All he has really said is “I looked at the car but no way will I ever become a an excellent driver” LOL.
This blog these days is driving people into the Church of Donations with its constant stupid remarks from total idiots.
There are reasons these guys get no case gain and give up.
I met 100’s of these types when I was doing martial arts, one smack on the arm or hard fall and they ran away and forever wailed about how nasty it all is.
Never understanding that you get out what you are prepared to put in.
They sound like a load of bloated socialists all in the condition of “Must be contributed too”!!!
Scientology trolls love to say that critics “drive people into scientology”…It’s pure Hubbard-think.
If that’s the case, why is scientology shrinking at an unprecedented rate?
Well Mike, the reason scamology is shrinking so fast is because lack of critics. 🙂
Hiautus 62, you are like most other scamologists. You are a pathological liar. I never said that is why I didn’t need to do the OT levels. Why do you feel a need to lie?
I missed you Foolproof
Thanks Gary! Nice to get a bit of recognition.
OK Foolishroof, I’ll take the bait and offer some of my own. I admit that I can’t produce the quote regarding Hubbard’s comments about farmers. If someone wants to search for it, I fairly positive it is contained within the first dozen ‘lectures’ of the PDC. I can’t search for it because I consider myself lucky to have unloaded my entire scientology library on eBay for pennies on the dollar. Far more than any of it is actually worth. Even if I was still stuck with my “investment” I would not listen to find the quote. Instead, as a US citizen, I would exercise my Constitutional rights against cruel and unusual punishment.
Let’s talk research. Let’s get down to basics. Again, I’ll use my (very limited) powers of recollection and ask about the 273(?) individuals mentioned in DMSMH who served as the basis for Hubbard’s ‘research’. Where are they now? Where is the ‘research’? Let’s take a trip down memory lane and talk about Sonia Bianca, the world’s first ‘clear’. She was about as ‘clear’ as anyone attesting to that sublime state of existence since that time. If you or anyone else can produce a single shred of Hubbard’s ‘research’ at any point along the ‘time track’ I’ll buy you an ‘intensive’ of auditing at Flag (The Mecca of Technical Perfection). Who would want to pass on that?
PS By research, I mean real research, not just someone making it up as they go along. If Hubbard was able to verify the existence of Plitdown Man using the e-meter, any trained scientist should be able to duplicate those results.
PPS I freely admin I have ‘MUs’ as does the entirety of humanity. I’ll take being human over homo-novis any day.
FP: Yes. You are back!
Of course I wasn’t referring to headaches as an example of LRH foisting off his case on the rest of us. Of course we all suffer from common ailments. I was referring to that part of his case which included “the wall of fire,” and subsequently being covered in disembodied spiritual entities.I was referring to a “case” that supposedly included trillions of lifetimes and stretched back quadrillions of years. I was referring to a case which created a cult in every definition of the word.
I have gone up the grade chart and I do have “reality” on the OT levels and my reality is that they’re the made-up fantasy of deranged mind.
And since I don’t believe in the efficacy of the e-meter, yes, I would ignore “reads.” Every once in a while some needle movement happens to coincide with something a PC is thinking. Yes, this happens. Does this mean this that meters work? Without a huge leap of faith…no.
The field of mental health is littered with bizarre theories, quacks, and practices that defy common sense. Then again, so is Scientology. This doesn’t mean there aren’t hidden gems amongst the chaff. It just means we have to be smart and selective in what we choose to handle our demons.
That said…I generalize all the time.We all do. LRH wasn’t the only one to project his foibles onto to others. Most people’s generalizations are fairly benign, though, and not intended to do harm–like those of LRH’s vaunted SPs.
Most generalizations don’t effect vast numbers of people. LRH’s did. He created not only a worldwide organization based on truths, half-truths, and out and out lies, but he sanctified everything he said by making Scientology into a religion. For every person LRH helped, there are too many others who he harmed.
If Scientology really worked as he wrote, Mike wouldn’t have created this blog, we wouldn’t be having this discussion, and all the readers and commenters would be on course at their local org.
The proof is in the pudding. And LRH added some wacky ingredients.
And finally, good for Brian for striking out on his own and trying something different. Good for him for tinkering with the “tech.” I wish him nothing but the best.
What specifically are you talking about with the generalized statement “He created not only a worldwide organization based on truths, half-truths, and out and out lies”? Can you be a bit more specific?
So really then the basis of your article boils down to whether or not you believe in the OTIII story then? So we have dispelled the general idea of the article then with a few pertinent questions. As I said it is pointless to discuss the OT Levels with people who have no reality on such. So here at least I will follow the LRH advice and “never discuss Scientology with critics”. (I should really apply that more!) You can keep your BTs, I have no problem with that. I am sure they will be comforting for you and keep you in good company in the eons ahead! But instead of trying to invalidate the idea, why don’t you just let other people get on with it, as I am doing here?
Now, you say or imply that Scientology doesn’t work and you don’t believe in the efficacy of the meter, yet you “ignore (meter) reads”, selectively it seems! How did you decide which reads to ignore? Is this “Terra-Scientology”, a new branch of the subject? Did you do any “Scientific Research” on this new branch of the subject? Perhaps you can open a splinter group and offer your services? You can call it “Russian Roulette Terra-Scientology”! I hope your old and future PCs are happy with your remark! What was that statement – “The meter by itself does nothing…”
I am beginning to think now Terra that I really am wasting my time here. What with Brian’s “OTIII” and the Lucifer theories, your MisUs among the other twisted statements of Hubbard’s, essentially the comments on here come from mostly a bunch of half-hearted, half-trained nincompoops who think they know what Scientology is and are trying to foist your and their ideas off on to others and making out it is “Scientology”! I mean, this is really getting ridiculous now.
As I say, criticize that which may need criticizing, but don’t make up and twist stuff to suit your otherwise empty “technical” agenda. Sorry Terra to be so blunt but this is getting, well…
No, that’s enough, poor old Mike will be tearing his hair out now with the backs and forths.
The specifics of Tubby’s transgressions are legion and well documented. He lied so regularly and for no good reason. Ron, the are ridiculously easy to document. I can’t believe anyone can read “History of Man” with a straight face if they have a grade-school science education; His war record is that of a know-it-all layabout and shirker; I’ve undoubtedly done more exploration and HAVE a pilot’s licence; I understand math;LOVED algebra and Calculus, and can actually navigate myself out of a paper bag.
Guy couldn’t pass a 101-level intro course on molecular science as theorized in the ’20s and had the gall to call himself a “nuclear physicist”! These are all well-documented with supporting evidence if you have the courage to open your eyes and look.
meant to say “Ron, the [whatever], but used angle brackets “<" which disappear in HTML all too often, drat.
I should stop “feeding the trolls”. Bad for my blood pressure.
It’s not that there are/were two groups:
1) those he helped. and
2)Those he hurt.
For most, he SEEMED to help, then hurt them, often by turning the apparent help into a cage that enslaved them. “Since that helped you, that proves the tech works for everyone, every time.” (with the the weasel phrase”When properly applied.” which of course had to be invoked often, if not constantly.)
In truth, the tech only seemed to work in the closely controlled environment of Scientology, and then only briefly before reality took hold.
Well said Terra
Foolproof,
Glad to read your above comments, they always get me to reminiscing about the good old days when we could discuss Hubbard, the tech, and what it all meant. If I may let me hit on one specific point you wrote: “Firstly this oft-spouted generalized “theory” in anti-Scientology circles that Hubbard foisted his case off on to the rest of the universe. This is a fairly recent idea…”
No. Not recent Foolproof. Not even anti-scientology.
In the late 1970’s, out in the California Imperial sand Dunes after a day of ATC’ing and several beers we discussed OT# 3 and WTF we were doing trying to align that ‘incident’ with our personal cases. If it was a dianetic incident then it should have been run as a dianetic incident back down the grade chart; hell, we all had run space opera for fun and thrills and no one (out of 17 in my personal circle) had found this specific and MAJOR incident. Curious , not? Alternatively, maybe Hubbard had tapped into the GE’s history (as out of History of Man) and came up with that incident, so again dianetics? Since most of us recognized the incident weren’t ours but rather entities and ridges we had with our bodies, it was, again, more body case than spirit case. We were left with wondering where was the OT help that we were all seeking. Finally, one ex druggie said it succinctly——- Hubbard went down the rabbit hole and OT#3 is what he came back with.
With DSMSH Hubbard invited the PC to look into the past for what was holding one’s self back. Fair enough.. But, to then say that OT#3 was the universal incident……… I call BS. And proveable BS if you simply review geologic history (science) of earth. and date the volcanos .
A lot of people beleive in disembodied beings. There was even a song once written about “Cupid, bring me an angel . . . ” but I don’t think the guy wanted the angel to be attached to himself.
Modern telescopes have detected 100 bilion galaxies in the observeable universe, each with billions of stars. Some planets, past, present and future might have a problem with overpopulation.
The point being that with all that vastness anyone could imagine a worst case scenario and worst case solution.
Yes Richard, once I had deciphered your ramblings about galaxies and stars to give your generalized theory some “scientific-sounding” credence, you are right – it takes a lot to confront it. Fortunately Hubbard came up with a solution, in all that “vastness”! Yep, very vast!
What is ATCing and what sort of group of people were you? I presume you had all done OTIII on Church lines from your remark?
As I said it is mostly pointless discussing this subject, not because Hubbard stated that disbelief was in-built – which once you get the button off handles it and it runs again, but either you had great wins on the level or you didn’t. If you did then what is the argument? You can theorize and pick apparent holes all you want about volcanoes and dates but there is no argument with the big reads and huge relief when these things blow, unless of course that didn’t happen for you and others?
As a pertinent aside I notice that the date for the wiping out of the dinosaurs on Earth has been creeping slowly upwards over the last decades towards that magic 74 million mark. Years ago it was 30 million, then 40 million or so and the latest stand is 66 million. Still, the dates in the incident are designed to be misleading and I doubt we will ever get a true “dino” date based on “scientific research”, but interesting nevertheless.
I think you will find that OTIII was only relevant to this sector of the universe or rather this area of the galaxy, I don’t recall it as being “universal”. Incident 1 is another thing and another incident. Incident 2 is “localized”, according to the materials as I recall.
And if your argument is based on what an ex-druggie pulls out of his jocular top-hat is this supposed to add any credence to what you are saying?
So as I stated above, Terra’s and your argument boils down to belief or non-belief of the OTIII incident. When I first read the story strangely enough (to people commenting here) I didn’t have any thoughts of disbelief. I remember my reaction as being – “hmm, interesting”. And when I ran my first session of OTIII and saw those enormous reads and felt the relief I saw no reason to get into a huge philosophical debate and nit-picking about it. I could do, as I am somewhat doing here, but what is the point?
Foolproof,
Sorry for that word. ATC meant all terrain cycle, 3-wheeler dangerous kind. Yep, all of us on AOLA and ASHO lines. Engineers, science-types, self-employeed, and bikers all.
The asteroid that hit Chicxulub in Mexico some 76 millions ago was reported some 26 years ago so I am not familiar with your chronology.
RE OT#3: The Hawaiian islands did not exist 4 million years ago. Now, When we settled down seriously as to WTF Hubbard gave us with OT#3 we decided it was a parable. It got us to look for all the times we were tricked-captured-tortured-etc-killed-and dumped in the trash. The rabbit hole was levity to us back then — insouciance remember? Yeah, my ‘universal’ only held true for this planet since, to my knowledge, he did not set up operations elsewhere in the vast ‘everywhere’.
My first reaction with the materials was: Damn, yes, about time to run these cross-currents in my space. Running this incident is gonna do the trick??? OK, let’s do it. Ran as long as the patter stated until flat, then ran as above, which one had to be done carefully since it was not in the materials to run things non-STANDARD you know.
Ok Jim, fair comment. So the “asteroid” that wiped out the dinos is now reported as 76 million years ago? I didn’t know that one so the dates are creeping ever nearer, this time though they have overshot by a million but better than 66 million, slowly but surely anyway.
As to the Hawaiian islands, the existing ones may or may not have been there granted, (if one believes “scientific research” that is) but as the area seemingly is rife with volcanic activity none of us know if something else wasn’t there at the time, and it stands to some sort of reason that something was. Well, Hubbard says he does know, and I ran the patter and it worked, so I’ll take it as true without worrying about minor details. I doubt the areas of volcanic activity (over rifts or plates or something?) have changed that much, but then I won’t bother to become a geologist or vulcanologist before I know for sure (and even then they are not sure). Interesting that when one takes more than just a quick critical glance one finds a possible explanation for an “outpoint”, something that others on here are not prepared to do.
No, quite right, you should definitely run OTIII standardly, as it seems you did. After all you don’t want to run OTIII without a meter sitting on your back porch for 3 weeks and without having had previous grades like Brian. Or if running the Luciferian Jesuit version of OTVIII you might “spontaneously combust”.
I find it interesting that (as) you ran things standardly we can have a decent conversation about it without getting into unnecessary chagrin about it all.
I get your point about humor and insouciance – it was a laugh a minute when I was in the Orgs – great fun. Until it all got “serious” that is.
p.s. I must admit to still feeling a bit uncomfortable talking about all this but it’s all over the net now anyway.
Actually, the asteroid impact that wiped out the dinosaurs is theorized to have occurred approximately 65.5 million years ago (The Cretaceous Period lasted about 79 million years). This theory is based on one of the earth’s layers from about that time period. This layer contains high amounts of a substance called iridium. A rare substance on earth, but a common element in asteroids. This impact was thought to have raised temperatures on earth either by blocking out the sun or allowing the escape of greenhouse gases. Reptiles can’t handle wide variations of temperature as well as mammals can. The result would have been the extinction of many types of reptiles, leaving the mammals to gain the ascendancy.
Sorry, meant to say that the temperature on earth was either raised by the escape of greenhouse gases, or lowered by blocking out the sun.
Drove up to Clearwater yesterday to look at the Real Estate opportunities for the Religious Freedom Center. There are almost a dozen vacant store fronts and buildings in range of the Clearwater/Fort Harrison intersection. In the end, I think Hubbard created a gigantic fish aquarium. I watched Sea Org members on the streets and it reminded me of the Tampa Aquarium. These people, like fish, were all wandering in lines on the streets going from building to building. If the Pope and his priests were the only ones at St Peter’s with no public, it would mirror Scientology. A man from Washington State asked me about the Scientology buildings. He pointed to SO members and identified them by uniform. He said to me “Be grateful you are no longer in this religion” as he departed.
Hi George – I figured that your comment on an earlier topic about doing a “tour by auto” in Clearwater was just a cover story. I was quite sure you’d be boots on the ground – haha
i Richard,
I did do “boots on the ground”. I also took pictures of the vacant property.
That would make LRH a Paranoid Schizophrenic would it not ? .
Or is that being suppressive ? …… like I care if Scamology thinks that .
I would wear it as a badge of honour .
Putting labels on people are for the losers who impose them .
Whatever Tubby’s psychological assessment might have been, his propensity to LIE about anything and everything shows us a guy who didn’t want anyone to know what he really did and who he really was. It’s also a strong sign towards sociopathy, if not psychopathy, IMO. (I’m not a mental health professional, BTW, so take my opinion as just that.)
I can’t imagine telling another person if your thoughts & feelings are wrong your Fine but come to Me take some Vit’s,hook me upto an E meter Tell Me/Us your inner thoughts,Mistakes or make up stuff and keep details of any mistake U’ve done we’ll Help you hello Isn’t that what a shrink dose but Dr’s are wrong they don’t know what there doing wonder how Sct is doing w that,I can pic a person w issues & not getting the help they need so send them to wherever & make them lick the nasty dirty floors sure they need abuse on top of the bottom line there dealing with,ABUSE must be a Cure Ughhh,to have a Mind that sees that place for what it really is & told your wrong good grief very sad.
Hi Mike hope Life is going well & sen my Luv to your family your awesome doing great work & still wanna watch Going Clear missed it was on TV saw part of it then was on latter that day & missed again ughh but hope can get to watch it from the start…
That’s what I hated about Scientology, all that labels for other people,I didn’t knew about supresives till they point me to it, i lost my inocence there.
Who diagnosed whom as an “anti social personality” — or are “we” (as opposed to the elusive “they”) supposed to use it loosely?
Hmm . . . “Paranoia” . . . Isn’t that David Miscavige’s “middle name” ?
BTW – What is Miscavige’s Middle Name ? I can’t seem to find it online.
Dave F.
I think he shortened it to “DMSCOHB”. Not sure how it is pronounced.
WAYC,
Hmm . . . That might be something similar to the Cyrillic alphabet . . . When I “translate” it, it reads “Asshole” . . . Thoughts ?
Dave F.
What’s his middle name? Shit Head.
Very good Terra. I particularly refer to, ” If he suffered from some ailment, so did everyone else.”
I made mention of conversations between John Atack & Mayo on Ortega’s site the other day. Hubbard according to Atack’s recollection of Mayo’s auditing of Hubbard actually dictated “tech” that popped into his head while is session himself as a PC to Mayo, who had to write that down to be written up as a HCOB later. That’s the way he did his “research”. Bingo – and that’s how we got NOTs, during a repair of Hubbard’s physical condition. In some sort of fairness it was completely screwed around and altered yet again by RTC but that’s not the point. We had Hubbard’s case literally shoved down our throats, in very violation of his prior writings/procedures. As I see it, he really, REALLY went off the rails big time with OT3 and got everyone else as well to shoot themselves in their own foot. Hubbard truly did generalise like crazy & lied about what he considered “scientific research” (it follows no definition I know of, it’s a fairy tale), but it was good business. Made lots and lots of money and worst of all kept the scam going on for years & years.
The life and times of L.Ron Hubbard… the biggest squirrel of them all…sheesh!
This whole notion of Hubbard’s ‘research’ really gets my undies in a bunch. When I was being ‘body routed’ into the mission where I first encountered the cult I had the opportunity to ask about the origins of dianetics and scientology but I had just about ZERO critical thinking skills at that point in my life. So, no questions were asked.
When asked to produce evidence of Hubbard’s ‘research’ no scientologist can produce a single shred. Nothing. No one from a lowly mission receptionist up to the highest trained ‘tech’ people in RTC. Not anyone currently there or anyone else who has been ‘disappeared’ at some point or any Indie or Freezoner. They can’t produce anything because there is nothing to produce. Unless they pull something out of their ass like Hubbard did.
At one point back in the 80s the cult was selling blue volumes called the Research & Discovery Series. There was no ‘research’ in any of them. It was just transcribed materials of Hubbard’s stream of consciousness blathering and tall tale telling. I confess that I did not read all of the volumes that I purchased, but I’d bet a nickel that there was no mention of the Sonia Bianca incident at the Shrine Auditorium (or Palladium or where ever).
Here’s a true confession. Embarrassing. When I first walked through the mission doors way back when and was given the intro spiel by the person that gave me the OCA test, I visualized Hubbard doing independent ‘research’ in a white lab coat on some secluded island, free from the strings that governments might attach if they were to sponsor his work. How naive is that? Maybe I was watching too many James Bond movies, but there you have it. It’s easy to see what an easy mark I was. Like shooting fish in a barrel.
Similar experience by me.
We were all fish in a barrel once. You’re not alone. But Scientology is a little bit like an aquarium. Those little fishes just swim around with nowhere to go.
Hubbard according to Atack’s recollection of Mayo’s auditing of Hubbard actually dictated “tech” that popped into his head while is session himself as a PC to Mayo, who had to write that down to be written up as a HCOB later. That’s the way he did his “research”.
There is more. Listen to this when he does his free association ‘research’ about universes with Mary Sue auditing him. The rambling is just crazy!
Scientology: Battle of the Universes (1952): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CEsS2LaYx0 (scripted)
I lasted about 3 minutes.
Didn’t I read that the “tech” he had Mayo write up often had little to do with the processes being run in session?
And didn’t Nibs say that Dad hopped him up on drugs, then wrote down what Nibs came up in ‘session’ with as “What to audit”/”History of Man”?
Makes sense to me…
That’s what HoM felt like to me on my first read: “What was that guy ON?” AND didn’t I also see that HoM was part of the “current” OT levels? So we have some guy’s drug-addled hallucinations included as “Standard Tech”!?
(I like the interrobang; such an expressive piece of punctuation.
Excellent article. The truth is surprisingly simple after you pull your head out of the flustercluck.
TC, spot on as usual. I think you could take any of the 12 anti-social personality traits and they would apply perfectly to Hubbard.
That is odd…I recall him saying somewhere in his mountain of confusion books and lectures… “without farmers our world would be insane”…and so on and so forth
For every piece of tech L Con Hubbard wrote he had an equal piece of tech to nullify, suppress, invalidate and confuse it.
We refer to Hubbard’s writings as
“HUBBARD’S LAWS OF COMMOTION”
😛
Hubbards numerous contradictions, his theoretical statements about the behavior and preferences of free and unhindered spiritual beings (Logics, Axioms, etc) ) in contrast to the sweeping bullshit/over the top thought control system of the organization is a screaming “outpoint” that Scientologists can never ever ever afford to resolve unless of course, that they are willing to be declared SP in the process. So much for having integrity to observe for oneself and to say what one has observed. That will get you shot in Scientology faster than anything. Great posting today.
I love the dichotomy you have pointed out here. As someone who got in as a teen and left as a more elderly person, I see it so clearly now. And yet when in, I bought his sweeping generalities and gave him a pass because he was the founder.
I made excuses for his evaluative slams on psychs, doctors and the media.
Amazing. He was the biggest SP until the beat fisty one took over.
Lron disrespected everyone and everything not $cientlogist. The steps needed to make a group identity require a ‘them’ to define what you are not. By trying to paint any other country, business or group of people, the ‘bad ones’, Lron tried to imbibe the bad ones with what ever disparaging words were available and whatever he could project onto them.
All that is really laughable, if you parse the sentences and don’t have any misunderstood words.
$cientology is really a time share you buy from someone who wants to store their furniture in your brain.
“Lron disrespected everyone and everything not $cientologist” Actually, from what I’ve been discovering about scientology, Lron seemed to have been a con artist who didn’t respect scientologists either. Seems to me that he simply wanted his followers’ money.
+1000000
What seems to be described is the Marxist’s mindset of “Identity Politics”. You can argue how it is used, but it does exist in many areas and is real and dangerous.
If you look around, you will find that it is all over the place, on different subjects.
Sounds like Scientology…
Rhymes with “Sounds of Silence.” The hallways of Scientology are pretty quiet these days.
Yet they still think they’re expanding.
What’s the next line – hello darkness my old friend…
Yep, expending in oblivion.
As per TC’s description, yes.
It also describes the post-modernists mindset.
“Sounds of Silence ” will come to all of them.
All dysfunctional dynamics use “us” vs “them” –
The invisible wall.
Terra, Terra … Masturbation is not a concept … (couldn’t resist)
So right Joe. Though it does involve imagination!
And practical application.
You know he wrote hats for everything. I wonder…..
Joe,
It must be a “postulation” . . . LOL !
Dave F.
“… introduced the concepts of misunderstood words, overts, and masturbation.”
I often overtly misunderstand words during masturbation.
*tip your waitress*
Ha, ha!
Very well put Terra Cognita! Per Hubtard’s own writings, he was a “suppressible person” & merchant of chaos extraordinaire.
LRH, said “psychs are against us”, or “IRS are just criminals”, or “governments are bad” yet this was no more, and no less than lack of responsibility for his own misdoings, tax evasion, law violations and lies.
LRH named the above, and many others as ‘his enemies’, yet he never realized that what he was doing was against law agreements that the majority did follow (pay taxes, for example). He used all this as an excuse to keep doing what he deemed was the best.
Individuated and plainly irresponsible.
Miscavige followed some of his path; with his obsession to control, with which he feels powerful, he has hidden himself behind the shared of ‘religion’ to also steal money, abuse others, lie to the government and, really, to not care at all for those around him.
Poor souls, karma awaits them and ain’t going to be nice.
While we’re talking about his suppressive generalities, how many died because they used assists instead of doctors?
How many died or killed because they wouldn’t or couldn’t go to a psychologist or psychiatrist because of ElRon’s generalities about how bad mental doctors were?
How many contracted cancer because they smoked because Mr. Generality said, cigarettes cure cancer?
Any other generalities to add?
“…..yet he never realized that what he was doing.”
That is more bullshit
He knew exactly what he was doing.
This was a fun little essay to read with my morning tea. Thanks Terra.
I remember a time in the late 70s or early 80s when I got ahold of the PDC lectures. This was the time period for me when I was swilling Kool-Aid whilst listening to these tapes. I thought that they were fascinating. I had a good job and a few extra bucks at the time and these tapes had just been made available on cassette. My fellow students were envious and I was certainly basking in their admiration. The Bookstore Officer was grinning ear to ear for being ‘upstat’. I was chugging along listening when Hubbard made some general comment about how degrading it was to be a farmer. A FARMER!!! That stopped me in my tracks. MY people were farmers. These were the people that I admired for their hard work, honesty, family values and simple lifestyle. When I thought about it, weren’t most of our ancestors farmers at one time or another? Weren’t these the people who made it possible for us to eat and survive? Weren’t these the people who were responsible for our leisurely lives?
I had some fleeting ‘evil thoughts’ about Hubbard (“the fat fuck wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for farmers putting food on his plate”) for disparaging my people, but being intoxicated with the Kool-Aid, I quickly stuffed those ‘evil thoughts’ and chalked it up to having an ‘MU’.
In hindsight, there was little that the old grifter didn’t generalize about if it didn’t serve his agenda. The problem with current scientologists is that they were just like I was, stoned on Kool-Aid and unable to take Hubbard’s rare good advise: LOOK, DON’T LISTEN. Fence-sitters, side-liners, under the radar, doubter types and questioning types may have the courage to look and think for themselves at some point. I hope so. As for the OSA net nannies reading these critic’s blogs, keep yer blinders on and get yer asses back to work.
“…stoned on Kool-Aid”
Yep – no word clearing needed 🙂
Stoned on cannabis. What’s word clearing? Do you take words & clean them up?
Maybe it’s some sort of munchie. I’ve heard of the term ‘word salad’ before and I’ve seen “washed lettuce” at the supermarket, sometimes even treble washed! Crisps and chocolate are my favourite… don’t know what’s that got to do with word clearing though…
“Like, with a cloth….?”
Yeah, like another generality, ex-SO are ALL degraded beings. They couldn’t possibly have left or blown because they were mistreated, starved, etc. No it’s because they’re degraded beings and that’s that. Farmers, what a piece of work that con man was, argh.
LRH disparaging farmers?
Didn’t he grow up on a ranch in Montana somewhere?
And it took up a quarter of the state. And he became a blood brother to some tribe. At a very young age. So, yeah, Hubbard is the king of the universe.
As I recall, the great exaggerator claimed that his grandfather owned a ranch about one quarter the size of the state (Montana). I believe that was in the book, ‘What Is Scientology’. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong on this. I am a ‘no case gain’, ‘dog pc’ who wasn’t able to attain the state of ‘clear’ so my recall isn’t so good. Little Ronnie did indeed spend a portion of his youth in Helena, Montana. He was supposedly busting broncs (riiiiiight) at three and doing blood brother rituals with the local Blackfeet Indians (even though Blackfeet have no such ritual). He was also jumping off fences and putting the boots to the O’Brien boys to get ‘ethics in’ in the neighborhood. His grandfather was not a rancher, he was a veterinarian. Perhaps if grandpa was a large animal vet, he took little Ronnie with him to various ranches as he made his rounds and little Ronnie got the idea that the old man owned it all. Maybe little Ronnie had an MU? The only thing that I take away from all of these tall tales, little white lies, big white lies and out right whoppers is that the red headed tyke was no doubt one precocious little shit. Maybe he was the one who got his ass kicked by the O’Brien boys and that’s when he discovered affirmations. Just pure speculation on my part here. But, Ronnie definitely had issues and these issues remained unresolved despite his claim to have solved the problems of Mankind and transcend matter, energy, space and time. How gullible were we for buying into this scam? VERY, VERY, VERY GULLIBLE.
Nasty to think that way hey? To bite the hand that feeds you. I went to agricultural college with lots and lots of farmer’s sons. Never have I met a better class of people. Always ready to lend a hand and always saw the practical side of life.
When one take an holistic view of the Scientology organisation and its operation, it disparages everyone. Hubbard showed quite the contempt for mankind. He really did say, “wogs, someone who’s not even trying.” How did it all work out for you Ron? Your successor hides now too I see.
Ms. B.: Thanks for clearing things up. Having spent half my early childhood living across the street from cornfields explains my degraded self.
If I’m not mistaken I believe it was the advent of agriculture, i.e. farming, that laid the foundation for a civilized society. No other advances would have been possible without that first step, including LRH’s “first class on atomic whatever.”