Scientology is apparently hell bent on turning Alex Gibney’s upcoming documentary into a major hit. More power to them.
The New York Times reports the church is taking out full page ads to denounce a film they have not seen. This is every PR man’s dream. The HBO PR Team should send them a thank you basket.
With The Interview so fresh in everyone’s mind, the chances of scientology convincing anyone this is a “UVA/Rolling Stone redux” are slim to none. The take away is more likely to be persuading/intriguing people to see the film because scientology hates it with such vengeance. These days, being on the scientology hate list as a Nixon Enemies list style badge of honor and endorsement that you are doing something right. Leah Remini is Exhibit One for that proposition.
I have not seen their ads yet, but they will no doubt follow a by now familiar script: “Alex Gibney “refused” to accept information provided by the church and exclusively interviewed bitter defrocked apostates.” Of course they will not mention that the church, and specifically David Miscavige, refused to be interviewed by Alex Gibney for the film, and will babble on about their “massive international expansion” which is “”proven” by the number of square feet of tile laid and walls painted they have “opened.”
All one need do is look to the “handling” of the New Yorker‘s story on Paul Haggis and the Vanity Fair article about Tom Cruise’s marriage and Nazanin Bionadi or any of numerous articles in the Tampa Bay Times over the last 5 years for the blueprint. You can bet there have been a ton of threatening legal letters too. “See you in court” has been the cry from scientology’s stable of lawyers for some years now, but once the object of their ire actually comes out in public, they return to calculating their billable hours and everything is forgotten.
Of course, let’s not forget Freedom magazine. They have been hiring new names to put on articles, so we can expect the newest edition “dead-agenting” the HBO documentary.
See the story in the New York Times here (text reproduced below).
On Friday, the Church of Scientology is expected to strike out at the movie — which its members and leaders have not yet seen — with full-page newspaper advertisements in The New York Times and elsewhere detailing what it says are journalistic lapses by Mr. Gibney.
In a pointed reference to a much-challenged magazine article about a campus rape at the University of Virginia, the ads ask whether the movie, called “Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief,” is “a Rolling Stone/UVA Redux.” The film is based on a book written by Lawrence Wright, who is a producer of the documentary.
The critique guarantees a combustible debut for a movie that is scheduled to make its premiere at the Sundance Film Festival on Jan. 25, and will screen in a small number of theaters before reaching a wide audience on HBO, beginning on March 16.
The church’s forceful response risks calling attention to what might have seemed like old news. Scientology has already been closely investigated by Mr. Wright and others. A similar campaign in 2013 by SeaWorld against the documentary “Blackfish,” about orcas in captivity, did nothing to dampen the film’s popularity when it was broadcast later on CNN. But media flare-ups around accusations of sexual misconduct by Woody Allen and Bill Cosby — denied by both — have also shown that past claims can ignite new problems.
“Going Clear” arrives at Sundance as one of a cluster of volatile documentaries. While part happenstance, film agents say directors are leaning harder into controversy-courting topics as a way to cut through the clutter of television and video-on-demand services, where a lot of these films now primarily play.
Sundance bills “The Hunting Ground” as a “startling expose of rape crimes.” Marc Silver’s “3 1/2 Minutes” is a topical examination of racism in the American criminal justice system, while “Pervert Park” works to humanize pedophiles.
“Among documentaries, we’re seeing an increased shift toward topics that punch you in the gut,” said John Cooper, the Sundance director.
In its ad and in an interview with representatives, the church said Mr. Gibney had rejected its 12 requests for an opportunity to address accusations, while asking instead for interviews with the church leader, David Miscavige, and celebrity adherents that include Tom Cruise, John Travolta and others.
In a statement, Mr. Gibney on Thursday said he had “requested interviews with various people — including current church members and officials — who could shed light on specific incidents discussed in the film.” All of those asked, he added, “either declined, did not respond or set unreasonable conditions.”
Separately, HBO said in a statement that it was customary in making documentaries to request on-camera interviews from those involved in relevant events. “This film identifies those that were approached,” the statement added.
Interviewed last week, Mr. Gibney said his film was still undergoing a legal review, and that a version shared by digital link at that point might change slightly. He said he was confident of the film’s solidity, but acknowledged having received sharp queries from church representatives who “seem to be warning us, but warning us without knowing” what is in the movie.
Mr. Gibney said he had been working on the film for about two years. Scientology representatives said he first broached the subject of interviewing Mr. Miscavige and others last October.
A prolific documentarian, Mr. Gibney won an Oscar in 2008 for “Taxi to the Dark Side,” about the use of torture by the United States in the war on terror. He said he had frequently been asked to explore Scientology as a subject, but “actually wasn’t that interested.” He became intrigued with Mr. Wright’s book, “Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood and the Prison of Belief,” which was published in January 2013.
Most alluring, said Mr. Gibney, was the book’s underlying theme, which, in Mr. Gibney’s words, explores “how people become prisoners of faith in various ways.” (Mr. Gibney describes himself as “very much a lapsed Catholic.”)
The film includes a small amount of dramatic reconstruction, some harking back to the early days of Scientology and its founder, L. Ron Hubbard. It also uses clips that were licensed, were in the public domain, or were within the bounds of fair use, Mr. Gibney said. Some wariness surrounds any prerelease discussion of the clips’ precise content. Mr. Gibney and HBO have severely restricted access to the film, to reduce risk of an attempt to block its use of clips before the Sundance premiere.
Like Mr. Wright’s book, the documentary depends heavily on interviews with Scientology dropouts whose filmed accounts mostly track with earlier descriptions of claimed abuse, both physical and emotional, that were compiled by Mr. Wright.
Their impact is enhanced by the power of film, however.
“In the book, you have to take my word for it,” said Mr. Wright, who will join the film’s promotion at Sundance. “In the documentary, you get the chance to judge for yourself.”
(Mr. Wright extensively engaged with Scientology officials while writing his book.)
Speaking by telephone last week, Mr. Rinder said he had participated as an interview subject — and would join the Sundance contingent — to prompt change within Scientology. “I hope this movie increases public pressure for the church to change its abusive practices,” he said.
Monique E. Yingling, a lawyer for the church, said shunning was practiced by a number of religions, has been upheld as legally permissible by courts and, in the case of Scientology, is reserved for those who have started “attacking the religion.”
Ms. Yingling and others further challenged claims, reflected in both the book and the film, that church membership had dwindled in recent years. While citing no specific number, Ms. Yingling said adherents of the church number in the millions. Karin Pouw, a church spokeswoman, said Scientology had been growing in the years since Mr. Rathbun and Mr. Rinder left (Mr. Rathbun in 2004, Mr. Rinder in 2007), as it opened new facilities around the world.
Ms. Pouw and Ms. Yingling said the church and its leaders did not abuse members.
Still nine days from a public showing, Mr. Gibney’s film has clearly widened the gap between adherents and apostates. In its newspaper advertisement, the church, without mentioning names, characterized some people who had contributed to Mr. Wright’s book as having been expelled from the Scientology organization for malfeasance.
Speaking last week, Mr. Rinder — who was not named in the ad — had already described the church as “a parasite on society.”
Mr. Gibney, for his part, declined to say Scientology was the toughest subject he has tackled in a filmmaking career that has examined government abuse in “Taxi to the Dark Side,” financial shenanigans in “Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room” and a clerical sex scandal in “Mea Maxima Culpa: Silence in the House of God.”
But, he said, “it’s definitely in the top five.”
Alice Graves says
We’ve all heard about the banality of evil. Well a big part of banality is stupidity. The narcissist cannot get his head out of his ass long enough to see how banal and stupid is his obsession with himself.
At least whatever forces that created this universe made stupidity roll into the funny box. We definitely have that to be grateful for when observing Scientology.
Valerie says
Tell me papa Mike is it true that every time David Miscavige shoots himself in the foot another dozen bubble dwellers get their wings?
McCarran says
🙂
Old Surfer Dude says
Maybe wings. Most likely RPF,
Cathy says
You are awesome, Mike Rinder….
A comment I’ve been known to mention as I stroll past the pearly gates of Flag.
And yet with scientogists being the upper 5% of all people on Earth AND their 47X straight up expansion I don’t get it — why haven’t they been able to replace you ?
Mike Leopold says
Paging Tommy Davis!
Oh Tommy, it’s time for a reprise of “I’m angry…real angry!”
Michael Mallen says
Well Mike, I still must say that there is no such thing as disconnection as you’re characterizing it. Wanna buy some real estate?
ML,
Tommy
gorillavee says
So what is the balance of dead-agenting vs promoting this film? My guess is that it is heavy in favor of the latter. This is the natural result of operating entirely on the basis of boilerplate templates. Apparently no one is capable of observing and doing analysis in P.T. It’s much easier to just rattle off the same old lines as per a policy letter (or more often, as per a misinterpretation of a policy letter), than to actually think, decide, and take responsibility. But this is how dictatorships work, whether in the USSR or in Hemet.
Valerie says
I don’t have the exact reference, perhaps MR does, but it is actually written in “church” policy and was drilled in those of us who were tasked to protect that we were always supposed to attack, never defend.
Obviously once on the outside of this, it is easier to see “the lady doth protest too much, methinks” or the Streisand Effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect occur due to this ill conceived policy.
I heartily agree with you that they are only hastening their demise by these actions. I can imagine even their attorneys are banging their heads on their desk at this point pleading with them to just keep their mouths shut.
This much free advance publicity is any filmmakers dream.
Shelley says
Yes, lets not forget Freedom Magazine. I am sure they will come out with yet another foot-bullet doozy similar to that awesome one depicting all the “bitter apostates”. The very same one that proved to be a massive red flag for me and was the turning point of my journey out. When I saw they were willing to publish O/W write-ups from yours and Marty’s confessionals or ethics files, I was beyond horrified. And the vitriol spewed in that issue was like a blazened “overt speaking out loudly in accusation”. So yes – let them issue forth another great article which will result in even more mass exits from the Church. We don’t need to do anything – just sit back and watch them cannibalise themselves.
Aeolus says
Obviously the dwarfenfuhrer has never word-cleared ‘Streisand Effect’.
John Doe says
The church has been Streisand Effecting itself for a long time.
Back in the mid-80s, some OT 3 material was put into the public record in a court case. Sea Org members swarmed the courthouse to try and tie up the ability of the clerks to copy that material until it a hearing to take it out of the public record could be held.
This of course, drew massive attention to it, including the attention of the LA times, who published the OT 3 story the next day.
And we all know the disastrous consequences for the church that followed in the wake of that: now12 year olds who can Google know more about the upper levels than long-time scientologists.
McCarran says
Wouldn’t it be great if there was a cattle call done on all of us out here who get riled by reading the church’s attorneys or reps say things like “the only people shunned are those that attacked the church” or that “the church or its leader never abused its members.”
Do you know how many people out here in the pool of bitter defrocked apostates would step forward to tell what a crock of shit those two statements are? I hope someone like Ellen or Anderson interview some of us out here that would step forward to be interviewed on what I lie those two statements are.
I can dream.
John Doe says
I look forward to reading about scientologist protesters picketing the opening of the movie at a few large venues, further intensifying interest and adding to the film’s opening weekend box office.
It’s one of the only plays Miscavige knows and goes all the way back to the “win” he had using this tactic in Portland in the mid-1980s.
Whether or not he machine guns his own foot with this tactic remains to be seen. Perhaps he’s wised-up somewhat.
DollarMorgue says
It’s almost as if they’re acting in concert with HBO. Does David Miscavige get a kickback?
BFM says
The advertisement is full of foot bullets and signs of extreme desperation.
Personally I loved this one most (a tell all sentence):
“Desperate times call for disciplined journalism” .
BigGrizzlyBear says
Really looking forward to this. People can clearly see that there is something not quite right when no actual person is even willing to come and take part in a live interview/debate like ALWAYS happens when other films documenting controversy in a religion are made.
All that can do is make the church look afraid and lead to people asking well what is they fear?
tony-b says
Oh to be a fly on the wall when the film is released on television and in a secret home theatre in one of Davie Boy’s residences a small crowd is gathered to watch him fly off the handle at the sight of Mike Rinder and Tony Ortega 12 ft tall on the large screen . The Yingling-Pouw Sisters Circus are there with a bunch of expensive lawyers. Lou is trying to keep up with taking notes of the expletives dicktated by her boss while supplying hime with clean underwear. John Allender has been brought in to video tape the proceedings for a documentary on the documentary but can’t seem to operate the camera. In his rage DM has knocked over the popcorn machine and there is an RPF ex management guy trying to sweep up the spilled kernels..
Hallie Jane says
That’s quite a scene Tony-b!
I Yawnalot says
Inspection before the fact… naughty naughty Davey, don’t you know your own tech? Now that’s a silly question I know but what the heck, it must really sux to be anywhere near or associated with miscavige, public or staff – he’s glow in the dark toxic.
Hallie Jane says
It’s so typical of the rcs to try to handle a serious situation with……….wait for it………a big advertisement! It will probably be gaudy and have many exclamation points!!!!! Other strategies like, stop lying, cancel disconnection, start paying staff with the huge stash of money, apologize and cancel the gags 1&2, give a shit about the spiritual well being of members would be a start. While other charities are working hard at complete transparency and doing a decent service for others, we get a big piece of newsprint. I guess the puppy can pee on it, that’s useful.
SILVIA says
No matter how much they rant and rave the documentary is on and is getting more publicity.The crimes have been committed and will continue to be exposed.
And, as usual, their PR is not only a little too late, but keeps having the hallmark of attack, which the public is now recognizing.
The empire is collapsing and is going to get worse.
Kronomex says
The same, now very, tired piffle from the cherch about attacks on their “religion”. Zzz…
Yossi says
How can the Church state an opinion about the documentary, before they see see it? Isn’t that a definition of ILLOGIC?
I bet, nobody in the Church will be wearing a T-Shirt saying: “Je Suis David”. He IS a new type of terror and totally dangerous.
McCarran says
Ooooooo You give me an idea Yossi. I would wear that shirt. Also I LOVE the pic of Jeffrey Augustine in front of the poster of David Miscavige that says “Obey”. I would wear that T-shirt too. Maybe if I am able to go to one of the limited theater releases of “Going Clear….” I’ll get one of those T’s made up and wear it.
Mike Rinder says
That’s Jeff Hawkins Mary.
McCarran says
Oh yea. Another senior moment.
Michael Mallen says
Because they just KNOW, okay?
Michael Fairman says
The “church” has had the same knee-jerk response to every criticism leveled at it for as long as I first became aware of it in the early 80’s. As a new Scientologist I read, heard and was told about how Hubbard and the “church” handled previous attacks and criticisms – always the same – attack, denigrate, accuse, defame, attempt to destroy and lie. It generally cowed the critics, whether they were individual or the media.But that was before the internet. The accessibility of information provided by much more than “a few bitter apostates”, and a number of published books, revealed the heinous practices of “disconnection”, the “RPF” labor camps”,the viciousness of their attacks on critics, the treatment of children, the treatment of the their “clergy” ( Sea Organization members), and the laughably inflated statistics of its “global expansion” has shown the “church” to be a joke. A dangerous joke, but a joke all the same. But the internet possibly opened the eyes of only those who were “church” members and saw clearly that something was not right, their friends, and others who were just curious. The HBO documentary will accessible to millions, and as noted here and in other forums, the “church” condemning of the film with the same knee-jerk reaction it has used for decades, will motivate those millions to tune in. This time crying “wolf” will not work. They have cried wolf for over half a century. Whatever good the “church” had and possibly still has to offer, has been obliterated by the disastrous public relations it has itself created and continues to foster.
cindy says
Great observations, Michael. “Whatever good the “church” had and possibly still has to offer, has been obliterated by the disastrous public relations it has itself created and continues to create.” So true. And their knee jerk reaction to attack and denigrate the target is exactly why Karen Pouw in her letters to the editors (and we all know is is NOT Karen talking, but DM himself using her name to distance himself while she languishes in the Hole)…. anyway, instead of answering specific allegations in the movie or book, Karen ignores that and asks only WHO said what. Once they get a name, the hard core discrediting, denigrating and Fair Gaming of that person will begin in earnest. They never answer the allegations, but always go for proving that your “source” is a lying piece of shit so don’t listen to what they say. This has been done since the beginning, and is so easy to predict. Yawn.
edge says
This is brilliant Mike. Did Daveyboy learn nothing from the airport fiasco with Marty, or from the Sony hack? It would not shock me at all to see them send out mass mailers that get leaked here or at Tony’s stating in bold letters, “DO NOT SEE THIS MOVIE”.
HBO should send a return letter of thanks for the free advertising.
Kemist says
That would be awesome, and not surprising.
It would ensure that the few bubble dwellers who don’t look at the media because they are afraid of big bad entheta know about the movie.
2015 seems to be the year of the footbulletpocalypse for the cult.
tetloj says
** Mr. Gibney, for his part, declined to say Scientology was the toughest subject he has tackled in a filmmaking career that has examined government abuse in “Taxi to the Dark Side,” financial shenanigans in “Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room” and a clerical sex scandal in “Mea Maxima Culpa: Silence in the House of God.”
But, he said, “it’s definitely in the top five” **
How satisfying it must be to be part of a ‘religion’ that has the reputation of a junkyard dog
JennyAtLAX says
tetloj, may I borrow the last of your comment:
How satisfying it must be to be part of a ‘religion’ that has the reputation of a junkyard dog’s spittle.
Michael Mallen says
Jenny, would you go out on a date? Into S&M? Call me!
threefeetback says
Dave,
On March 13, you can brag to your dupes about how many of the 7+ billion people on planet Earth have not yet seen the film, “Going Clear”, due to your brilliant public relations abilities. You can make a pie(face) chart to graphicly make your point.
tetloj says
Great news Mike. Have you out-scooped Tony’s Friday footbullet story or is there evenmore coming? Nom nom nom.
Tony DePhillips says
They say they will declare you only if you are attacking them.
Attacking them means that if you express your right to free speech and give your o[pinions on things about them that you don’t like, then they can say that you are “attacking” them and this justifies having them get the members who are family and friends to “shun” you. They shun you because they are unable to confront opinions that they don’t like. Pretty friggin childish.
McCarran says
+1 Pow!
If you want to stand up against felony assault, fraud, extortion, false imprisonment, you are attacking the church. Well said, Monique. If you shut up and don’t talk about real crimes being committed in the church then you are a good boy and girl member of this group.
Old Surfer Dude says
Tony, they are absolutely, positively, no doubt about it, written in stone, against free speech. Except for them…
Tony DePhillips says
Oh RCS, you make me chuckle.
They only declare people who are attacking the “church”. Like by me saying that I thought that the people saying the cobb hit Sea Org members and I believed it, that meant I was attacking the “church”. Or by me resigning publicly…is that “attacking” the church??
McCarran says
My sentiments exactly. My saying that David Miscavige is a sociopath is attacking the church and in their eyes, since David Miscavige IS the church of scientology….
Robert Almblad says
Stupid ad.
Only the the few bubble dwellers left will listen, everyone else will take look
McCarran says
The few bubble dwellers who read this ad by the church will be high fiving. So sad; they don’t even realize how ridiculous they are.
Gerhard Waterkamp says
This is hilarious. Miscavige is spending Millions to advertise a film documenting and criticizing his horrible management of this “Church”. This maybe the first beneficial use for society of IAS donations. Makes me almost want to chip in for a few more one pagers of this kind. 🙂
This dullard is still his own worst enemy.
Michael Mallen says
ATTENTION!!!!!! URGENT!!!!!!!!!
“More donations are needed to stem the tide of the ever growing hordes of bitter defrocked apostates on the fringes of the Internet. Please see your local reg for a vital briefing that concerns your eternity on all eight dynamics. Don’t let Rinder et al. stop our only chance to make it out of the dwindling spiral of degradation. We want to provide enough theta to counteract the vicious machinations of Gibney and HBO in their attempt to suppress our church and freedom of religion everywhere. Please give until it hurts. This does concern YOU.”
Special Briefing Sheet sent to all students, preclears and Pre-OT’s.
Mat Pesch says
I think Dave should do a Super Bowl ad to let millions of people know that they should NOT watch the HBO documentary.
tetloj says
How else will they be able to reach the millions of ‘parishioners’ Mat. Wog email systems just couldn’t stand up to all of that communication against entheta
Old Surfer Dude says
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!! Matt, I just lost my coffee through my nose! Now that’s some funny shit! Would that be great or what!? Doing an ad telling people NOT TO WATCH the HBO documentary! Priceless!
Conan says
Speaking last week, Mr. Rinder — who was not named in the ad — had already described the church as “a parasite on society.”
HAHAHAHAHA!!
In Dog I Trust says
Oh my dog this is priceless LOL. Yeah, take out big ads denouncing a documentary (that will premier at Sundance no less) that was done by the number one American go to guy for producing brilliant award winning documentaries, and ensure the biggest ratings EVAAAAR! So juicy.
Today from the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/16/business/media/documentary-draws-ire-from-the-church-of-scientology.html?_r=0
tony-b says
See funny story From Clearwater ‘In Dog We Trust’ soils sheriff’s office rugs
http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/15/us/florida-dog-we-trust/
In Dog I Trust says
To tony-b: Ha ha. My kind of town, but not really lol.
Aquamarine says
This is fantastic news! Free, flaming publicity for this documentary, courtesy of the Co$. Thank you, cult 🙂
I’m thinking that Miscavige is really between a rock and a hard place. Protesting the ads so blatantly and expensively is not going to help and will ensure that more people watch thing. On the other hand, if nothing is done, Tom, Kirstie, Kelly and John won’t like it.
Couldn’t wish for a more perfect situation.
TheWidowDenk says
“Scientology dropouts?” If only it was so simple!
scientology411 says
Yeah this won’t backfire at all…
Brilliant move Slappy!
jeffleebrown says
Yup, ”A parasite on society” is the most apt definition there is of Scn. The other day I put up a Facebook link of a vid I shot on the collapse of Scientology in Adelaide, Australia but some people who I know that go to your website are not on FB and told me that they really wanted to see it.
So now I have uploaded it to You Tube and also You Tube have taken a lot of the shake out of it even though it is totally unedited by me and is just an off the cuff vid i took. . Could you please put up Mike to give the viewers some visual proof of how things are really going in Australia for scientology.
Here is the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfw5k9m7xCc..
Mike Rinder says
Nice job Jeff. Thanks. hard to argue with that sort of documentation of the decline of scientology in my old home town…
jeffleebrown says
Yes Mike, and I would say the next ”expansion” step after that little shop they are in will be someone’s house. My sources tell me this pattern of shrinkage is the same in Perth, Brisbane and A.C.T and the ”idle morgues” Melbourne and Sydney are slipping into the abyss at lightning speed too.
tetloj says
Low rent buildings complete with $10 a pop garden chairs – someone isn’t flourishing
Old Surfer Dude says
Or prospering either…
Gimpy says
There is some logic to this decline:
In the 90’s IAS donations were minimal – there was no membership officer in the org constantly hitting people up for donations so you just paid your annual fee to get course discounts and left it at that. Today there is a constant demand for money – none of which goes to the local org.
The ideal morgue pgm didn’t exist in the 90’s so again people had money to put towards courses.
There are far more “requests” for donations for everything from Library books to the lrh building today than ever in the past.
The internet was a lot less widespread in the 90’s so the flow of information about scn’s antics was much slower.
All of the above have pissed off current members and cut the flow of new initiates so the only way they can go is down.
WhiteStar says
great job on both parts jeff, they came out really well. i also found the rest of your videos enjoyable.
that guy banging away in the background of your chinatown video was awesome….you should go back just to record him.
Old Surfer Dude says
Outstanding video, Jeff! Gosh, it looks like the 47x expansion is really a 47x shrinkage. At some point the org will be two staff sitting under an umbrella in a park.
JennyAtLAX says
Part of the $500-zillion renovation of Los Angeles International Airport (“LAX”), a joint operation between the Cherch of $cientology and LAX, will be removing all comfortable seats and replacing them with plastic garden chairs (perfect for relaxing with Mary De Moss-like stalkerazzis and bitter defrocked apostates). The $ea mOrgue has their own plastic chair factory and will be supplying them for Idle airPorts worldWide by Maiden Voyage 2016!
https://jennyatlax.wordpress.com/2015/01/04/500-zillion-renovation-will-turn-lax-into-ideal-airport/
Pepper says
Mike,
Calling the present church a “parasite on society” is very justly and aptly put. I wish Michael Cieply expanded on exactly why this is. Hopefully the film will touch on how out-exchange the church is with society and its own parishioners. Michael Cieply’s article is much appreciated though, because it serves to generate more interest to see the film and I hope that a lot of people do.