Scientologists pride themselves in proclaiming they understand how to correctly locate and assign “cause.” This is a fundamental concept in both tech and admin. “Spotting correct source” and finding “real why’s” and “spotting exact time, place, form and event” are catchphrases sprinkled through the scientology jargon. There are examples cited by Hubbard all over the place about “wrong-targeting” – the guy who is upset by his wife and irrationally “kicks the cat” etc etc
Hubbard proclaimed the Data Series as the pinnacle of logical thought. How you identify illogical thinking and come to the correct conclusion about the real cause of a situation. Identifying correct “ownership” is what everything from OT III through OT VII is all about. And much more. There is even a “Leadership” test unique to scientology that is exclusively about “assigning correct source” (one gets a perfect score by answering everything with the ideal of follow LRH “to the letter” rather than “thinking for yourself”).
Yet, when it comes to their black PR campaigns, all their “sincerely held religious beliefs” go out the window. Only a single overarching policy rules the day: Fair Game.
Here is a little exercise to prove the point.
This is a hypothetical scenario:
A man develops a system for “clearing” the mind.
Stories recounting experiences with it are written on the internet.
A woman, after reading the stories on the internet, uses the system and cures her phobias.
Who is the “cause” of this? The man who developed the system? The internet? The woman?
Every good scientologist would tell you the correct answer is “the man who developed the system.” This is “source” – L. Ron Hubbard.
A second hypothetical:
A man sexually abuses his stepchildren.
The media covers the story.
A legislator reads it and decides to introduce legislation to prevent similar sexual abuse of children.
Who is “cause” of this action — The man who Abused his children? The media? Or the legislator?
Many scientologists, using the same logic as above, would say it’s the man who beat his wife that caused the legislation. The rest would say it is the legislator — based on the scientology principle that you are responsible for and cause your own actions.
Not a single one would assign the cause to the internet.
And a final example:
Scientology and David Miscavige abuse a family and others.
Marc Headley writes about his experience.
A nutjob says that what he read in the book drove him to making death threats against Miscavige.
Who is the cause? Scientology and Miscavige? Marc Headley. The guy who made the threats?
Now, here there is only ONE answer in the twisted illogic eyes of bubble-dwelling scientologists. Marc Headley. Of course. Makes complete senses – as long as you ignore everything scientology proclaims are its sincerely held religious beliefs….
This is what circulated on the internet by one of scientology’s “anonymous” accounts that sends out smears on its “enemies” – givinginfo@mac.hush.com:
MARC HEADLEY – INCITER OF VIOLENCE AND RELIGIOUS BIGOTRY
Like present day violence and religious bigotry being fought in today’s world, Marc Headley, in his book, incited hatred toward the leader of the Church of Scientology. This triggered a sailor, who had merely read Headley’s book, to institute an online bomb threat requiring the Church to work with law enforcement to track him down and severely punish him.This individual admitted to law enforcement investigators that he was inflamed by Headley’s book, to threaten sending a “vehicle borne IED” [Improvised Explosive Devise] to the residence of the leader of the Church, another to a Los Angeles Scientology Church and a third to an elementary school utilizing Mr. Hubbard’s education methods, which then necessitated evacuations by law enforcement personnel.
Law enforcement officials identified Marc Headley’s book as the sole cause inflaming this individual to post this highly dangerous threat to life.
http://www.whoismarcheadley.com/articles/marc-headley-inciting-hatred.html
The link is to one of scientology’s “anonymous” websites.
If the problem was the BOOK, the guy would have been threatening Marc Headley. The problem was the CONTENTS of the book and the stories he recounted. Whoever this nutjob is that made the threats, he would, based on his reported ability to spot “correct source” (the whole thing could be made up of course) for his actions score very high on the scientology “leadership” test and would qualify for an executive position.
If David Miscavige and scientology are concerned about “inciting violence” – rather than trying to say the cause is the numerous accounts of his activities available to the public, he should clean up his act so there’s isn’t no sordid and abusive behavior for anyone to write about.
But that’s way too logical to get any traction inside the bubble.
Once again, the proof that scientology will stop at nothing to destroy its enemies is in plain sight. THEY send it out. Yet, when challenged about their behavior they always claim anyone expressing outrage is a “bigot” and a liar.
As a PR strategy, telling everyone that there are death threats being made against you is Baghdad Bob level crazy. Would not surprise me if sales of Marc Headley’s book increased as a result of this.
It sucks to be Miscavige. You just can’t win.
Off topic: Did the message about Marc Headley and his book go out as an email to public Scns? Where or to whom was this disseminated to? If it was sent to Scn public, then it’s propaganda to keep the parishioners under control. This leads me to believe that more and more public are talking about what they are hearing, seeing, reading on the internet and otherwise, and that this is constantly coming to the attention of the MAA’s who then report it up lines. Traditionally, books of this nature are never discussed among the public Scns, so they wouldn’t even know about it. However,if they received the message above, they will learn of it, and a few will no doubt check it out. The CoS seriously needs to rethink its anachronistic policies/tactics and start taking the high road. Not that this will never happen with Captain David Miscavige though. Good luck to them.
David Miscavige, why does your staff not effectively deal with these attacks? You need to show them how it is done! Show them how a REAL leader deals with PR and the public. Only you can use TV, radio and the Internet to overcome the trail of incompetence left by your CICS PR staff.
Anyway, Data Series which I was the first to translate in french is filled of errors of logical reason,ing, particularly when one leaves the scientology management!. That was one of the reason making me dubious regarding Hubbard intelligence concerning management.
He had too much of his opwn mania for money filling all décisions to get correct décisions for anything but more money… right now. Just looking what happened to him (hiding for years to avoid paying his taxes) and looking the way scientology runs now, well!!
Besides, looking the perversions of “source” by miscavige adds to the fact that he’s neithger on source, neither more logical in scn management than Hubbard was.
You know , I’ve always said that the upset and frustration connected with Scientology and specially with LRH , makes one immediately dismiss truly valuable and workable principles contained in the Scientology’s scriptures , many of which were actually discovered and widely used long before LRH by others.
I am well known as a harsh critic of Scientology and LRH. I mean , it should be pretty obvious for anyone who have read my comments before. After I left the CofS almost 15 years ago , I decided to study EVERYTHING from Scientology , and to test it all. I used what I knew about Science (which is a lot) to verify many of LRH’s claims , and I did this for several years including each and every method of Exteriorization that LRH ever wrote , my main goal being to achive the state of “Theta Clear”. I have not made it so far, though. I have tested almost every process and procedure of Scn including the Tech behind the Ls RDs. I have listened to almost every lecture, read practically all HCOBs, and many of those, I read or listened to more than once, usually 3-5x. So it would be pretty fair to say that I have a large conceptual and chronological understanding of all Scn , including Admin and Ethics. And not a “fanatical” understanding , I may add , but one born out of a lot of practice and deep totally independent analysis. I guess that gives me the right to offer a totally educated opinion here of any Scn related subject. So that’s what I’ll do.
The concept of “Why Finding” or assigning “Correct Source” to things is a practice as ancient as Aristocle and the Greek civilization. It is EXTENSIVELY used in Science , in economy, in all kinds of troubleshooting techniques (in technical fields and engineering) , and even in workabke psychotherapy.
The Data Series is probably the Admin Tech’s subject that I have studied the most, having read all of them for more than 10x in great detail. And it is my professional opinion , through having used them hundreds of times in my personal life ,that it is a workable and very usable tech. W/out finding a “Why” or a “Correct Source” it won’t be possible to locate the reason(s) for the malfunction of ANYTHIG ,physical or mental.
Of ALL of Scientology, there isn’t any other “Tech” as logical, sensible, workabke, and practical as the Data Series is. EACH “Illogic” as LRH describes them is, indeed, an outpoint leading to wrong answers. And the methods of “Data Analysis” and “Situation Analysis” are very closely related to the Scientific Method , even if this latter is described using different terms.
One gets a troublesome situation (at work, life, etc). One takes the available data from the scene , and compare that data against the “Illogics” (the list of outpoints). That would be your “Data Analysis”. Then we take the scene and divide it in different areas, or choose the areas that scene is already divided in , and assign those outpoints found to the areas or parts they apply to. That part or area having the most outpoints is the area to correct and concentrate on. That’s “Situation Analysis”. Now, by getting more data now from that area, and by analyzing such new data against the Illogics, one then makes a new list of outpoints. By “pulling more strings” as needed one follows the trail of outpoints and find one that is a common denominator to all others ; one that w/out its existence, the others would not exist. That is your “Why”. If it is a correct one , it WILL open the doors to handling. “Open the doors” means, “To make it possible for something to happen”. (Macmillan English Dictionary for Advance Learners). So essentially, this means that a “Correct Why” makes it possible to find a handling for the current non ideal scene.
Then one examine the resources at hand, and then come up with a bright idea to put that Why into practice , which requires coordinarion, good organization and planning, and others doing their corresponding jobs or functions.
Why would anyone think of the above process as unworkable, cultish or misguided totally escapes my understanding. Now, IF the individual(s) applying the Data Series is/are biased , not objective, cultish about the area being analyzed, inclined to use fixed ideas, then, OF COURSE, that the “Why(s)” WILL be but a bunch of fanatical fixed ideas full of bias, wrong answers, and destructive solutions. The probem is not the Data Series themselves , but the way LRH and the CofS used them in a cultish totally fanatical way. That’s the problem itself.
Saying that ALL ARC breaks happens due to Missed Withholds IS a wrong Why, for example, cause it just ain’t so. Try being very unjust to someone, and then try to find his “Missed Withholds” to “help” him feel “better” , and be the witness of how hell is let loose. Try handling the suffering (which is nothing more than an ARCx of some kind) of a mother who lost his child through disconnection y getting rid of her “Missed Withholds” with the CofS, and be the witness of the biggest “Sad Effect” that you will ever see. Because IT IS a Wrong Why and a wrong handling. In this example , that LRH datum is an outpoint in itself ; it is a “Falsehood” , “Wrong Source” , “Wrong Target” , and “Assumed ‘Identities’ are not Identical” (ARXxs ≠ Missed Withholds all the times). YES, Missed Withholds DOES causes ARCxs , but not ALL ARCxs are caused by Missed Withholds.
That generalization by LRH made it possible for him to come up with the Suppressive datum that ALL critics of Scn just have “crimes to hide”. See ? LRH couldn’t use his own Tech about Finding correct Why(s) and workable solutions. But it wasn’t that Tech that was at fault but his WRONG use of it in a totally biased and cultish, fanatical way.
“Standard Tech” is FULL with many “Wrong Why(s)” and a TON of outpoints. It is as if the man who wrote the Data Series wasn’t the same man that created “Standard Tech”.
Another issue here if Scientology’s idea about an invididual being the Cause of anything that happens to him. I am afraid I can’t disagree with that datum ; we DO are the effect of our own causes, and almost every philosopher in history share that same viewpoint. In fact , if this datum wasn’t true , no recovery would ever be possible with any psychotherapy, as no healing is possible by wrong assignment of authorship to things. If it hurts you , you did it, I am afraid. Most people here will think otherwise, but that’s quite all right with me. If that datum were fully understood by others, we wouldn’t have so much suffering and hostility as we have in this world. The single most truthful Scientology datum (which LRH borrowed from ancient philosophy) , is that a being is the total cause of his own consequences. And it have taken a whole lifetime for many wise men in the history of this planet to fully realize and embrace that datum, which to me, is humanity’s real route to salvation. “Do not send to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee”.
Applying that datum to my life has taken me out of more trouble than any other data from any other sources , and has helped me to effectively help hundreds of individuals in my life.
LRH was a con man, YES, I totally agree. He harmed a lot more individuals than he helped others. Were he a true humanitarian like Gandhi , Dr. King and others , he wouldn’t have had all the bad PR that he had and still pretty much has. No real good man EVER has a bad reputation ; PERIOD. Having “enemies” my ass ; a man with a true good heart just CAN’T hurt ; that is just an impossibility. He can be attacked, yes, and he can be suppressed sometimes as well during his life. But a good man ALWAYS wins at the end, and receive the good will of others towards him. He truly inspires respect and admiration. LRH never did outside his fanatical followers , because he WASN’T a good man. He craved for money and power as any cult leader does. But not all he wrote was false, unworkabke, and “unscientific” by a long ways. And to think otherwise is to be at the other extreme of the equation ; the “Attack and hate anything from Scn and LRH” extreme ; one equally misguided ; equally cultish.
There is also good to be found in Scientology. To say otherwise would be totally intellectually dishonest from me. And I am not here to gain popularity neither friends. I am here to disseminate truth as I see it. And all I have written in this comment , is nothing but the truth to me based in my OWN independent studies and analysis of all of Scientology. I can’t just lose the workable parts of anything and still call myself a competent unbiased researcher , and a want-to-be a wise philosopher. I just can’t.
TC
“It is as if the man who wrote the Data Series wasn’t the same man that created “Standard Tech”.
The reason it seems “as if” this is true…is because it is true.
Spend some time reading through the older threads on ESMB and elsewhere and you will run across the original “source(s)” of much of what folks now incorrectly assigned to LRH as “tech.” There were many, many contributors to large parts of what wound up in the red and green volumes, as well as many of the original “LRH’ authored books. And unlike the utterly false statements in KSW, those contributions WERE major and they DID matter greatly.
Of course there are useful bits in both the tech and the admin of SCN, but they are buried under the tremendous weight of deliberately false information used to surreptitiously control people as well as LRH’s inability (refusal) to admit earlier errors and to publicly correct his own errors without blaming others.
It is virtually impossible to read DMSMH after advancing well up “the Bridge” without realizing that Hubbard abandoned many of the tenets of the original Dianetics, yet never later corrected the book or admitted the errors (except in the most offhanded joking manner.)
Your post is valuable…and you have more to learn about the true history of SCN…believe it or not
ProbablyNot : “Spend some time reading through the older threads on ESMB and elsewhere and you will run across the original “source(s)” of much of what folks now incorrectly assigned to LRH as “tech. ” There were many, many contributors to large parts of what w ound up in the red and green volumes, as well as many of the original “LRH’ authored books. And unlike the utterly false stat ements in KSW, those contributions WERE major and they DID matter greatly.”
Peter : Thanks, ProbablyNot ; I am quite familiar with those older ESMB posts , specially every post from the late Alan Walters where he covered that point in great detail. I know the sources where LRH took most of his principles from, and have even read most of those works myself. So I am no stranger to that. Neither I was necessarily inferring that the Data Series were LRH’s original thoughts, though many of it seems to be that way. My point was and is , that they are useful and workabke REGARDLESS of their source. Source is never important in real Science ; only facts are.
ProbablyNot : “Of course there are useful bits in both the tech and the admin of SCN, but they are buried under the tremendous weight of deliberately false information used to surreptitiously control people as well as LRH’s inability (refusal) to admit earlier errors and to publicly correct his own errors without blaming others.”
Peter : Can’t disagree with any of that.
ProbablyNot : “It is virtually impossible to read DMSMH after advancing well up “the Bridge” without realizing that Hubbard abandoned many of the tenets of the original Dianetics, yet never later corrected the book or admitted the errors (except in the most offhanded joking manner.)”
Peter : No, he didn’t as it was his argument (a faulty one, in fact) , that a student ought to have a chronogical understanding of the development of the Tech by studying everything in its original form and context ; a gross error all in analysis. About 60-75% of the contents of that book has been either totally contradicted by later research or corrected/modified. It should have had AT LEAST footnotes making clarifications. And it was all based on the big lie about the alleged capabilities of the “Clear” ; a yet to be achieved state with Scn. A clarification note as to a “Clear” being ONLY an ideal state and not an actuality, should have been also included. But that would have represented money losses for LRH , as nobody would have paid those large sums for auditing for results EASILY (yes, dear posters ; you did heard me well) obtainable with other methods like competent psychotherapy, Self-hypnosis , and Self-suggestion methods such as those from Emile Coue.
LRH KNEW very well that such methods existed, and that they had brought about many incredible results (just read Coue’s works) ; but those methods were either very low cost, or most frequently, totally free and even “Self-audited”. But then , his money source would have vanished.
ProbablyNot : “Your post is valuable…and you have more to learn about the true history of SCN…believe it or not”
Thanks for the validation ; and I SERIOUSLY doubt that any living being knows more about the “real” history of Scientology than I do ; I seriously doubt it.
Thanks for the reply. Take care.
Best regards,
Peter
have you read the Heinlien letters between Heinlein & Hubbard and the Heinlien letters between Campbell & Heinlein? During the development of Dianetics.
I forgot, have you read Dean Wilburs book on English Rhetoric that Hubbard studied at GWU and wrote a letter to Dean Wilbur that he would use his book to write a book? Back in old days b/4 dianetics.
Have you studied this book?
No, I am afraid that I was never able to find that book either online or at Amazon or any such book provider. I did read LRH’s letter to Wilbur, though :
http://education.lronhubbard.org/page17.htm
There is another book from Virginia Waddy on “Elements of Composition and Rhetoric” , that contains almost a copy-paste method of “LRH’s” “How to clear a word”. Here is the link :
http://www.lermanet.com/exit/studytech/
Please, be so kind to provide me the source where I can find Wilbur’s books on English Rhetoric , if you know of any. Take care.
Best,
Peter
Hey TC, I had nothing to do, so after some happy pills I looked up this author for you and found the following at the link below:
(P.S. This book is also titled at GWU, The Elements of Style in English Rhetoric. I also have many sites that lists all kinds of rare books, lectures and etc. in PDF form *for free* (YEAH!) from a combo of universities. During tomorrow’s happy hour, I’ll give ‘em a shot. LOL … I hope this helps ya! Pat 😉 )
From the NY. Public Library:
Author: Wilbur, William Allen
Title: Exposition in English rhetoric.
Washington, Press of Judd & Detweiler, 1910.
Description 32 p. 8vo.
Local Note Gift of Publ. Weekly.
Call No. NADD p.v. 1, no. 20
Research Call Number NADD p.v. 1, no. 20
http://catalog.nypl.org/search~S1?/cNADD+p.v.+1%2C+no.+20/cnadd+p+v++++++1+no+++++20/-3%2C-1%2C0%2CE/frameset&FF=cnadd+p+v++++++1+no+++++20&1%2C1%2C
Yes it did help, dear Pat Wog Winner ; thanks a lot.
Best,
Peter
Yes, some of them. I was particularly impressed by one of LRH’s letter to Heinlein.
http://tonyortega.org/2014/11/08/the-heinlein-letters-what-l-ron-hubbards-close-friends-really-thought-of-him/
Peter
Hi Theta Clear, I read those along time ago in books I found at a Syfy bookstore when I lived in Va Beach, Va 89-93. Interesting.Love, Ann
Thanks for the reply, dear Ann. Yes, those are very interesting letters indeed!!!
Love,
Peter
Seems as if we agree on most points…thanks for your thoughtful reply.
I would be cautious about “SERIOUSLY doubt(ing) that any living being knows more about the “real” history of Scientology than I do”.
That’s perhaps the primary problem with Scientology and other authoritarian organizations…there is usually somebody in charge who thinks “they know more” than anyone else.
There is ALWAYS something to be learned from others. ALWAYS.
When that truth is no longer operating one can be certain they have entered into a dangerous environment.
Thanks for your insightful reply , dear ProbablyNot ; and you are 100% right about this :
“There is ALWAYS something to be learned from others. ALWAYS.”
My apologies for having been so self-righteous about that point ; yours is EXCELLENT advice, thanks. Take care.
Best,
Peter
In other words, Peter, Hubbard wasn’t TOTALLY wrong ALL the time about stuff. But he sure was totally wrong a lot of the time about stuff, wasn’t he?
Yes , dear Roger ; LRH was DEFINITIVELY totally wrong a lot of times. That’s why I can’t recommend Scn to anybody in an unreformed state, even though it DOES possesses many, many excellent principles, processes and procedures. But the way Scn is presented in LRH’s writings is just too absolute and authoritarian , which actually is a formidable method of hypnotic type of suggestions that rob others free will and the capacity to think for themselves. All one needs for a fail-proof method to create a bunch of robots is :
1. Having “Data Altitude” by reason of having read a lot about one subject. LRH definitively had a lot of that.
2. Presenting such data in absolute terms such as “This is the ‘only’ way this is” ; “If you do such and such a thing you will ‘always’ get such and such results” ; “This is the ‘only’ method to achieve this or that” ; “This is the ‘only’ workable tech of the mind” ; “This is man’s ‘only’ chance at spiritual salvation” ; etc, etc etc.
Those assertions heavily impinge upon the minds of those souls who are under heavy pain, need, or confusion , and act as post-hypnotic suggestions which Insidiously affect the individual.
And because Scientology’s texts are full of such authoritarian and false assertions, then recommending the reading of them while they remain in an unreformed state is a HUGE overt act from my perspective.
My Indie friends disagree with this, and support (even if unwittingly) LRH’s suppressive and misguided policies, either by applying them, or by remaining totally silence about their destructiveness, which is also a HUGE overt of omission. Bottom line , I can’t trust most Scientologists ; I just can’t. And as they frequently say about things, “They totally pulled this in”. :-)))
They “pulled this in” , as by their silence, they totally ignored the Human Rights of others, and failed to seek the redress of wrongs for them, many of such wrongs having been the DIRECT result of LRH’s policies in a totally unadulterated state. So you could say that I am TOTALLY AGAINST strict KSW followers ; TOTALLY AGAINST EACH ONE OF THEM.
I don’t really give a rat’s ass what they choose to believe , AS LONG AS, they fully support EVERY Human Right as presented in the “Universal Declaration of Human Rights” and the many International covenants that came after it such as the “International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights” ; and as long as they don’t fail to publicly discuss where LRH went wrong. Those two conditions not being present ; then I DO care what they believe, and WILL expose them every time I can as being against Human Rights, and accessories to crimes against humanity. And my power to do so , is something few of them really understand. And the quality and extend of my reach is something they underestimate, but they are worry ; worry indeed.
Just EXACTLY after I attaked the MS2 group and the corrupt criminal Merrell Vannier in this blog a few days ago, and commented about MS2 being a “ghost town” , they magically started to post with a lot of frequency. Doing some damage control , ah Lana ? Just wait until I set up my website exposing each of Vennier’s lies with DOCUMENTED evidence instead of his fairly tales and unsupported ASSUMPTIONS, and then you’ll need to do some HEAVY damage control indeed. MS2 has underestimated me more than once to their own peril. They never learn lessons in life. Well, they will.
Just today they published a LRH’s article titled “Kindness”. A beautiful quote indeed ; my favorite one, in fact, and actually my principal stable datum in life. I just love that quote ; it is so inspirational ; a state of beingness and doingness incredible worth achieving. The irony of this is that in actual practice, LRH failed to apply his own quote to himself to such a degree, that hundreds of lives were totally destroyed by his destructive methods. What an irony, what an hypocrisy , indeed.
Bottom line, dear Roger, Scn does have great uses , but only analizing each part in detail , applying free will and self-respect and self-confidence to it, and deciding what is true and what is not. I can do that ; I am trained enough in Scn, philosophy, and Science to do that with no ill effects on myself. The question is, “Can others not so trained do it ?”. I don’t think they can, and thus I can’t recommend Scientology to anyone in an unreformed state. MS2 KNOWS that I am after reform , and they fear that. The irony of this is that if they would accept my help, the amount of public reaching out for them would increase. But they are only after robots, and not after free thinkers.
Take care, my friend.
Peter
Very much liked your essay(s). Probably one of the more personal and objective analysis I’ve read on this blog.
I too delved pretty deeply to see if the “tech” had merit. I found some that did and some that didn’t. A lot of assumptions are made in the tech based on extrapolation from early findings, logical mostly but wonky in the application field, especially 3rd Dyn application. R6 process took a bit work to get a good grasp but overall I found many things I like to use or had a single, good use out of.
Nice work and thanks for the time to share your views.
Thanks for the validation, dear Yawnalot ; most kind.
Best,
Peter
“I used what I knew about Science (which is a lot) to verify many of LRH’s claims , and I did this for several years including each and every method of Exteriorization that LRH ever wrote…”
Every method? What about R2-45? 😉
(although I guess de-exteriorizing would be tricky after that one. best to skip it.)
No , I didn’t like the R2-45 method at all. I still wasn’t ready with my robot body design. :-)))
thetaclear, I really like what you said in the second to last paragraph and the ending was the best:
“But not all he wrote was false, unworkabke, and “unscientific” by a long ways. And to think otherwise is to be at the other extreme of the equation ; the “Attack and hate anything from Scn and LRH” extreme ; one equally misguided ; equally cultish.”
I have been in this place and go there from time to time. This helps me, and will also assist me in helping someone else who is having a bad relationship with a parent over Scientology. Thank you.
You are most welcome , dear Hennessy ; I am glad that it helped.
Peter
ThetaClear – Yet another well written commentary from you. I also cringe at throwing away EVERYTHING from scn. Maybe it’s an emotional reaction from getting ripped off.
A problem with your commentary past and present as I see it is that posting on a daily blog it gets read by a few and then proceeds into the ocean of internet words. I surely hope you preserve your observations/analyses somewhere else.
How about “Scientology Facts and Fiction; What Works and What Doesn’t” Surely not everyone will agree with you, but whether a book or a website this provides a reference for future explorers into human potential. Best, Richard
“ThetaClear – Yet another well written commentary from you. I also cringe at throwing away EVERYTHING from scn. Maybe it’s an emotional reaction from getting ripped off.”
Peter : Thanks for the validation , dear Richard. Yeah , probably that. :-)))
“A problem with your commentary past and present as I see it is that posting on a daily blog it gets read by a few and then proceeds into the ocean of internet words. I surely hope you preserve your observations/analyses somewhere else.”
Peter : Yes , I see your point , and thanks for the suggestion ; I have kept them all.
“How about “Scientology Facts and Fiction; What Works and What Doesn’t” Surely not everyone will agree with you, but whether a book or a website this provides a reference for future explorers into human potential. Best, Richard”
Peter : I’ve been working in the design of a website (actually two of them). They are in the design phase with many pieces of it already written up. One is going to be called ; “Scientology : Truth Revealed”. That website is oriented for Still-ins who came up to the awareness of doubt regarding the CofS as such , not necessarily about LRH/Scn. It is intended to gradiently lead them to discover the truth about it all for themselves. Everything will be well documented with no opinions whatsoever ; and if I do communicate any personal opinion , I’ll make very clear that it is my personal opinion. I’ll use the same LRH Tech on “How to handle black PR” to “Dead Agent” all the lies with DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE , including a very through Stat Analysis of the CofS. Everything will be properly “Dead-agented” including the destructive parts of LRH and Scientology , but after the correct introduction , and gradiently.
The other website will be called : “Arrows in the Dark : Truth Revealed – The False Memories Of Scientology’s #1 Spy Merrel Vennier”.
In that one I will Dead Agent all the lies and mere assumptions of the corrupt Merrell Vennier , that attempted to cover the lies and destructive actions of LRH , and to position Scientology and LRH as victims instead as the criminal they were. This will be my very special gift for the MS2 group ; my own personal research just for them ; and VERY well documented unlike his fiction book.
I am almost finished with phase one of my strategy : To make myself known. I started with this idea the first time I realized about the corruption of the CofS. I had been off Scn lines for years just going to events from time to time. I was doing my own research into the writings of LRH as such. I then decided to personally contact Tom Martiniano , and discussed my intentions with him to reform the Cofs. He thought the CofS was beyond reform as the government had “taken” the Church under their “control” , and DM was probably a government Spy. The same shit that the corrupt Vennier talks about in his fictional book. I think Martiniano and him got together to prepare such a fictional account , and stories of conspiracy theories. I started to post at MS2 blog , but Lana Mitchell didn’t like my “style” apparently. I was too much of a revolutionary for them , and was threatening their convenient status quo by being too vocal about things. So I was finally “Black-listed” by her , because my comms were according to dear Lana , “Below 2.0 on the tone scale” , and I was enturbulating others by being “too argumentative about anything”. What she really meant was “too much of a free thinker” , of course.
I then realized how the “Freedom of Speech” right was constantly being violated by strict KSW followers. It was then that I realized that Rinder’s was actually a place where he respected that right , and wasn’t the enemy that MS2 attempted me to believe he was. I was very down those days , and even wrote a small letter to him (under another name) that I am sure he can’t possibly remember now ; but I basically thanked him for his liberal approach to freely allowing others to express their ideas.
I then found the BIC blog , and started to post there. My remaining fundamentalist ideas about the way I still perceived the critics of Scn/LRH were handled by BIC’s Admin when Chris Shelton published that he had decided to leave Scn as his philosophy , and I posted a very nasty attack to Chris that the Admin didn’t post , but had the decency to privately tell me why he had decided not to post it. The way he handled it all with this great tolerence and granting of beingness was something I wasn’t used to with other Scientologists. I was really impressed , and it was right there that my remaining fundamentalist ideas were blown away for good. Gradiently he let me publish comments and articles that were critical of Scn and LRH , but stated with tolerance and respect. Before my posting there , any comments anti-Scn/LRH were met with attacks , intolerance , and even moderations , because the posters approached the subject too out-gradiently and violently.
So I changed that approach , and stated basically the same criticisms but with more tolerance and respect for the views of others , and doing it more gradiently while supporting my assertions with documented evidence. Little by little , the tolerance level towards criticisms against Scn/LRH increased , until many months after , a very sane exchange of a multiplicity of ideas was the norm within the blog. I had achieved what I sought to achieved , which WAS NOT , the end of the blog.
Then I came to Rinder’s , and started on a similar path which wasn’t easy at the beginning as I was considered a LRH/Scn lover , and was frequently attacked , but mostly by two posters , one of them being already gone now (thank God) , and the other apparently a friend of mine now (for me , at least , he is very much my friend). Now apparently there are a few posters that like my comments and find them even helpful. So I feel that I am ready for phase two (and not the same as GAT2 , mind you :-))) )
So , stay tuned ; this is going to be a very exciting year.
Best ,
Peter
Hey, “Theta Clear” (I hope you will achieve the state at some lifetime). It looks like you know a lot. So, as you accept the Data Series as a valid Tech isn’t it an outpoint that we don’t know your name but you can come with some Data Altitude about some many things and so many people including LRH?
I have seen how the Freezone and Indie field has been taken apart by some nasty efforts to guide the people away. Those who didn’t have any much of a certainty of course fell in the trap. You are not going to succeed because there are Theta Clears already around you. So, look around you and you may one day achieve the State. Wishing you well.
Mike Rinder, you guys have gone too far. I think all the good that you found in Scientology got buried under this vicious attack by Miscavige. He surely knows his tech how to fixate people and get them away, far away from the pure subject that Scientology is. That’s not Scientology my friend. Turn the other way and forget all this publicity thing. Find some peace of mind and see it for what it has really been to you not to Miscavige or “Theta Clears” who are not even that.
I like this post. All viewpoints should be allowed and considered. theosismanides, please consider this:
(from http://www.taoism.net Translation by Derik Lin)
From Chapter 41
Higher people hear of the Tao
They practice it diligently
Average people hear of the Tao
They sometimes keep it and sometimes lose it
Lower people hear of the Tao
They laugh loudly at it
If they do not laugh, it would not be the Tao
From my viewpoint, if Scientology cannot be laughed at by anyone, then it cannot be the vessel which holds all. IMO detrimental fundamentalist positions can and should be modified. Beyond that someone once said “There are many paths to the top of the mountain.”
My best wishes to you on your path. Richard
Richard D, who said we are not laughing here.
But we do laugh as the world is going down. Everybody can see this. I am in Greece and the war in Syria is next door. And much hypocrisy goes around. Politicians and Religious leaders unable to do anything. Yet, they keep their status. And we keep our fights and arguments and laughters. But the downward spiral keeps getting faster. You should be here in Greece to see how many refugee children have drowned in their effort to flee Syria. How many thousands of refugees have landed on the small Greek islands to escape the nightmare of war. And then the 3party game between terrorism and the western civilisation. Another game that is played very well on a global basis. Who is selling those arms to terrorists? The same people who say they are against the terrorists and are supposed to protect us from them. They instigate trouble and prepare for war.
It’s a mad game and a mad planet. I have seen it, no one can tell me otherwise. And then you have Miscavige playing dirty games on Scientology and ousting the good staff and saying he is the leader because he can build Big Temples like the Christians and Muslims did. It’s a repeat on history.
But the subject IS the subject. It’s not what you or me, or Miscavige, say it is.
So, I think we are laughing enough here on the subject. And I am part of it otherwise I wouldn’t be writing here.
Hi theosismanides, Good to meet you. I read your post about being in Greece and what you see there. Thank you. I hate to see humans, animals,the planet being abused. I have seen abuse in many forms and know the pain. Ron & dm did put in motion a system that had wins but also great cracks in the foundation.It is now off the rails even though the still ins cannot see that or ignore it.
I have to laugh at times about it all, otherwise I would do nothing but cry and mope around.This blog is where I go for support and all things good! Love, Ann
The world has ALWAYS been “going down” and it has always been going up too. The world is doing what it has always done because people continue to be what they are. Do you think there is a way to collectively transform people from what they are to what most of us consider ideal? That means all human frailties like vanity and anger must be removed from the human psych. All those refugees are the result of somebody’s vanity and anger.
Have you seen any methodology that transforms regular people into ideal people? Scientology doesn’t have that transformative power. The proof of that is self-evident. Scientologists would be ideal people and they are NOT ideal people by any stretch! It isn’t enough that they have nice little “wins” (“My dynamics have expanded to infinity!”). That isn’t going to transform the world. People must be made into ideal people otherwise this prattle about saving mankind is an absurd fantasy. Such a fantasy is for people who are out of touch with reality. That makes them a contributing factor in the problem of confused human behaviors.
theosismanides – Thank you for your well written reply. Although not even close in magnitude to the human tragedy you and Greece are experiencing, America does have some experience of that. Parents are sending their children Alone on thousand mile journeys to escape oppression in central American countries.
I think it may be best to stick to Scientology here, although I agree with your world outlook. I left scn around 1983 soon after the second round of price increases started which I thought was unjustified. I was Dianetic Clear and Class IV. That is my reference point, not the current nutty scene.
I believe that in order to resolve differing or even opposite viewpoints, we must diligently attempt to duplicate and even “feel” the other person’s point of view and find common ground.
“It’s a mad game and a mad planet” Yes – and the hope/goal of Scientology was (past tense referring to my background) to solve that problem.
“So I think we are laughing enough here on the subject. And I am part of it otherwise I wouldn’t be writing here.” I think that last part of the Taoism quote was not necessarily about laughing at the subject, but realizing and accepting that not everyone will understand it, agree with it or participate.
I have only followed this forum for about two months. It seems Mike mostly focuses on current CoS stupidities. Then comments follow with (it seems) all viewpoints allowed.This allows many to vent their frustrations.
Lastly, the blogger who calls himself thetaclear IMO doesn’t say he wants to delete Scientology, just “reform” it. Let’s see what he comes up with, ok?
Richard
Theo, one of the solution to eradicate Islam is to eradicate monothéism as a whole. Monothéism is an heresy of Egyptian religion started by Akenaton. Aton was the first name of the monothéist god. Jews are squirrels of Egyptian, Christians and Moslems are further squirrels.
Monothéism has put the world in 3000 years of insanity.
Hope as a greek you believe in the gods of Olympus!
Hey theosis – In my opinion in order for any civilization to survive, logic must eventually overcome emotion. I’m making no evaluation here and don’t wish to invalidate or minimize the discussion below.
We humans have proceeded past the “nuclear threshold”. (not my original thought) That is the point when intelligent life discovers thermonuclear power and blows itself the fk up – or not. We passed that point during the Cuban missile crisis. Take a win!
Richard D, I am not sure we are past the nuclear threshold. And though it’s true that the danger once came from the West and still is, now, I think it’s going global. I don’t have to comment more on this. There is a certain turmoil around the world.
I wrote in another comment of mine that we all share an amount of responsibility in how things went and… are going. I am not into arguments as much as trying to make a point that the mind should be pass on as being the mind… not the brain. Pretty simple and powerful. What we are going to do with this data is up to us, each one of us.
Hello theosis – Thank you for your response. Yes, LRH showed and proved in many ways that the brain is not the mind, but some people don’t (or won’t) get it. I just hope that ALL humans in the historical near future, say two or three hundred years will get it. Best, Richard
Theo : “Hey, “Theta Clear” (I hope you will achieve the state at some lifetime).”
Peter : Hi there , Theo ; long time no see. Where have you been ? Thanks for your best wish , though I am not sure if you meant “At another lifetime” , perhaps ? :-)))
Theo : “It looks like you know a lot.”
Peter : Well, others seem to think so, though I always feel like an eternal student just beginning my journey. I only know that I don’t know enough.
Theo : “So, as you accept the Data Series as a valid Tech isn’t it an outpoint that we don’t know your name but you can come with some Data Altitude about so many things and so many people including LRH?”
Peter : Now, what on hell are you talking about, dear Theo , I have posted my name here every time ; it is Peter Torres. Having you been reading this blog ? Unless, of course, this isn’t your OWN origination, but Lana’s or Tom’s ? And I have as much “Data Altitude” as any responsible and dedicated student of philosophy (REAL philosophy) would have. I thought you being a Greek would understand that. Greece is the birthplace of philosophy.
Theo : “I have seen how the Freezone and Indie field has been taken a part by some nasty efforts to guide the people away. Those who didn’t have any much of a certainty of course fell in the trap. You are not going to succeed because there are Theta Clears already around you. So, look around you and you may one day achieve the State. Wishing you well.”
Peter : “There are ‘Theta Clears’ already around you ?” My God, Theo, it hurts that you underestimate my intellect. Do you even know what a Theta Clear is , do you ? Scn has NEVER EVER been able to produce a real Clear, let alone a Theta Clear. Please tell Jim Logan that Peter Torres told him to cram the hell out of you on the PDC lectures and on the 1rst and 2nd ACCs. Then once you’ve been crammed on that, state that piece of stupidity again. None of you have even done yet all the old OT levels after being a full NOTs completions ; why on hell are you being so naive ?
I have have absolutely nothing against you , Theo. I think that you are a good guy , even if very misguided about LRH. You are very decent and respectful in your comms ; that’s an indicator of a good individual to me. I wish you well in your journey with Scn. If it makes you happy, then I am happy for you. Just remember being fair too , to all those souls that got violently hurt by policies EXACTLY as written by LRH , w/out no alterations of them whatsoever. Just remember to embrace ALL Human Rights , which include the rights of others to disagree with LRH/Scn , and to even find it destructive to them, w/out you being intolerant to that. If you do that , and do it publicly, then you have my public support. If you can’t because of misguided ideas to “protect” the “reputation” of Scn/LRH, then I am afraid that you are an unsuspected enemy of free will, freedom of thought , and real self-determinism.
Theo : “Mike Rinder, you guys have gone too far. I think all the good that you found in Scientology got buried under this vicious attack by Miscavige. He surely knows his tech how to fixate people and get them away, far away from the pure subject that Scientology is. That’s not Scientology my friend. Turn the other way and forget all this publicity thing. Find some peace of mind and see it for what it has really been to you not to Miscavige or “Theta Clears” who are not even that.”
Peter : Ouch!!! ; that ending really hurt !!!
You MS2 guys and gals are just afraid of my potential reach and my ability to get others to listen, and just pay too much attention to Martiniano , that bitter oldman. Why don’t you guys ask Mark Shreffler what exactly he thinks about Peter Torres ? I mean , he is the world expert at Human Evaluation , isn’t he ?, (actually he IS , I can TOTALLY attest to that) and has even examined IN DETAIL my OCA profile. He is part of the board the last time I checked. So why don’t you go and ask him directly ? Perhaps the reason is that dear Mr. Logan (someone I ACTUALLY admire) didn’t agree with Shreffler’s support of South Africa’s Ron’s Org , because Logan thinks of them as a bunch of lunatics “squirrels”.
Why don’t you guys ask one of your main Solo-NOTs C/Ses who is my personal friend, who have actually met me in the flesh, how he feels about me ? What kind of individual does he feels I am ? Why don’t you go ahead and ask him ? You know why ? Cause it is EASIER for you to abandon your independent thought , and believe the suppressive datum that all criticism of LRH and/or Scn comes only from Missed Withholds and not from valid reasons. That’s why. For you, there is something terrible wrong about me , just because I don’t support LRH nor Scn in an unreformed state. For you, I am just a failed case , who only needs a good Repair. How presumptuous of you , indeed!!! You don’t even know me.
But guess what, dear Theo ? I seek the same things you seek ; happiness , honest work, the happiness of others, games, friendship , self-mastery, and increased spiritual awareness. The different between you and me, is that I can comfortable confront a multiplicity of viewpoints , and you can’t. You just can confront Scientology , and only what LRH taught you that was “right”.
Do you have doubts about my honest intentions towards the welfare of others ? Then I offer a public challenge to any MS2 high profile honest auditor out there. Come here to Puerto Rico, and interview me on the e-meter, ask ANY Qs you want to ask, video-tape the interview, and post it. I’ll sign a release form totally notarized , not holding him responsible for anything. . You guys say that the e-meter never lie, don’t you ? Well, this is your chance (Are you listening, dear Tom Martiniano ?) to prove how “criminal” I am, and the many “crimes” I have to hide. How about that ? ; I am giving you the opportunity to PUBLICLY prove how Theta Clear is only an OSA operative only attempting to incite trouble in the Indie field , and in the Freezone. This is your perfect chance, Tom, don’t waste it. I promise to be a nice , kind, and respectful , even when you hate my guts.
I have nothing personal against you, Theo. I only don’t support your criminal silence for things that are and were obviously wrong from LRH ; that’s all. And I WILL NEVER support you guys, not until you leave Scn, not until you stop using “Standard Tech” , but just until you guys learn to embrace ALL Human Rights , and protect those who have been harmed by pure, unadulterated LRH. I will not support any of you until you reform the subject, and rid it of its many destructive policies , and do it PUBLICLY.
If ANY subject can’t be freely criticized, then there is something TERRIBLE wrong with it ; PERIOD. Do you see the different variety of companies selling the same type of product attacking each other personally , and looking for each other “crimes” in order to stop the other ? Do you ? Do you see the different denominations (except Islam) attacking each other, heavily criticizing their differences in belief ? No, they don’t. Each one of them just mind their own business, and support Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech. But you Scientologists can’t. You guys apparently have an M/U on the word “Tolerance” , and don’t even understand what “Freedom of Speech” really means in the practice , not in a hypocritical “Creed” which never was actually used by LRH towards others.
Scientology have many excellent workable parts ; I’ve never EVER denied that. I use Scn daily in my life. But it also has many destructive parts that you guys either don’t want to accept or misguidedly attribute it to “alterations” from the CofS or from DM , when in fact they are 100% pure LRH. And that just pisses me off cause that ain’t right ; it just ain’t right at all. That’s being dishonest and cultish about it , and I just won’t have that. You guys are unwittingly suppressing many Human Rights with your adherence to strict dogmas. You are misguidedly attributing LRH god-like characteristics, and being right about EVERY damn thing he ever wrote. How crazier you want that to be ?
No Theo , you have a lot to learn , buddy ; a lot to learn indeed. But I am a very patient man.
My best wishes to you,
Peter Torres
Hi Peter Torres from Puerto Rico. That’s good to know your identity. Peter : Hi there , Theo ; long time no see. Where have you been ? Thanks for your best wish , though I am not sure if you meant “At another lifetime” , perhaps ? :-)))
Theo: yes, that’s what I meant.
Peter : Well, others seem to think so, though I always feel like an eternal student just beginning my journey. I only know that I don’t know enough.
Theo: That’s a good point to start then. To know that you don’t know enough. But at least you do know some things and that certainty I hope is never invalidated as Knowledge IS Certainty. And I have seen many UnCertainties lately amongst “Scientologists” and exes and I am going: what is that now? why all this? I now know that they were NOT sure in the first place. They never arrived to know that damn thing. It was not real to them in the first place. So, they were going “by the book” instead of making it their own thing.
It’s now my 30th year in Scientology and I am finding out that I probably know less than 10% of it. Less than 10%. But others did know it almost ALL.
Like I have a beef with Mike and I am going to say it openly now. I did have one before as he was part of Mgmt when I was being persecuted in the SO for standing up for Standard Tech in the Translations but that’s the past. Now my current beef is that HOW COME Mike endorses a documentary by HBO that presents the Mind as a fucking brain !!!!!!!! When I saw this I said to myself: those guys fucked us once and now they want to fuck us up again by bringing this now to a new low level. The mind is presented as a brain in that holy otherwise documentary. I mean people have gone to the other side. And those people were the guiding guys in the SO together with the tyrant and us, poor thetans, down there on the fucking org board tried to keep Standard Tech in. Go Google my name and find my write up on the Freezone.de site. You will read my story.
As to Standard Tech I am no Class VIII, anybody here, a Class VIII? I hear a lot of things. I am not up the Bridge but you know what, I am a thetan. And my Ethics viewpoint has changed a lot. And I do have tolerance, monsieur, oh yes, I do. But I have intolerance AGAINST IGNORANCE or COVER UPS and FALSE DATA. The Mind = the Brain… oh my God. And now that I got my big beef on Mike Rinder (I can continue but that’s not a post on him, it’s a post on tolerance and intolerance, Standard Tech not as a “fundamentalist” thing…. oh, that’s another enemy line by who? Marty Rathbun… who got exterior on TR0 and now has abandoned the subject and calls us fundamentalists). But tolerance? How much more tolerance, man? For who? Those people who betrayed us once (and I was one of those who insisted on giving them a chance) and now betray the subject (thank God, I have nothing to do with them any more hierarchically) again? Tolerance for them and those who can come out and ridicule a subject that they know little if anything about it? I am telling you, I feel I know 10% on the subject and yes, sir, I do have an idea that Theta Clears are around you and me. No need for them to do anything. But there are, boy. And you ain’t feeling them yet. Maybe they did nada on the Bridge but I do not they are around.
Scientology is not an end point. It’s a means. A stupid auditor (actually, not so stupid but he hadn’t really gotten the subject well) once told me: why are you with this woman, don’t you see her tone level? And I told him: why do you just see current tone level and not potential tone level.
Scientology is not an end point, it’s not an end in itself. It’s a tool. And some chose to take the tool and start beating others and then go out on stage and say the tool works. And some chose to go away from that scene and use the tool for those they love as best as they knew.
So, Scientology or not we are on the same path. The quest for knowledge which is Certainty. I see tame, little thetans around. Oh boy, they don’t have space. They can’t even reach to Puerto Rico and shake the hand of Peter Torres and say how are you? No, they just need to hear from Peter Torres or Theo SIsmanides or Mike Rinder or L. Ron Hubbard. They are not causative. That tells me they haven’t made the grade. They have NO CERTAINTY themselves. They need others to tell them. Someone tells them the mind is the brain and now they say OK, yes sure the mind is the brain… (actually it isn’t but ok who cares, that’s their level of mental and ethics vigor). Mike Rinder should come out publicly and denounce that documentary for that scene alone. It’s a major overt of magnitude to allow such a false datum to be pushed down in society. Because all derangement of something good can start from… Hollywood, I guess. And then you will have Miscavige do that same thing. At least, let’s acknowledge that he didn’t do it yet.
So, tolerance for what? All that stupidity?
Now, you have courteously replied to all my points. Permit me to not be able at least for now to answer to all of your comm. It was a decent answer from you. By the way you have your own fixed ideas a bit, Mr. Torres. There is no MS 2 for me. I am on my own. That’s my origination, ok? I respect those guys. I don’t know why you kind of attack them so much. I know Lana from the SO. She was always bright. Anyway… that’s my point. We attack the people who are doing something about it and all those who just alter things or have suppressed or follow idiotically who is going to tell them any datum, we don’t. Sounds like elections in a democracy here.
And yes finally LRH did some things wrong. (by the way I never give him and Godlike characteristics, we Greeks like to have more Gods you know, we had 12, 1 won’t cut it). But he put together all this shit and got some smart asses mid way to the other side and now some who have seen some glimpse of light come and say “hey, the man was not perfect, actually he had quite some flaws, and then he did things wrong, and oh yes, the government was after him and went with Alister Crowley and did you hear, LRH once locked up a messenger or threw people from the ship. Relevant importance is not there at all. Homo Sap can see up to a point. He can’t see higher. Until he graduates and accepts the fact that he is a thetan and he kind of makes it to get some certainty about the fact that he is not the body and the body is going to die one day and what the hell let’s get the show on the road and GET SOME SPACE he is not gonna be but a puppet. A puppet. He can raise flowers in his garden but he will never be able to stand up and say: People of the world, you who feel there is a danger, unite and do something about it and let’s forget about our petty differences but let’s start doing something. And because he knows of no Admin he can’t gather ANY forces around him to promote the cause. So, he goes (the thetan now, because thetan he is) down and forgets all about this big game. So, he starts frequenting blogs or posts on FB.
We all do these things in this mortal state, Peter. But let’s put this straight. Big beings exist. But lately I don’t see them. I see a bunch of bank agreement. LRH was such a being. He left a legacy not to be forgotten soon. What you are going to do with this legacy is part of YOUR track, NOT mine. I am doing my thing and I respect those who do their. But tolerance is another thing when there is a war. And you know there is one otherwise you would be some place else.
Allow me then to say my things, for the heck of it. One day I may be stronger but until then I won’t tolerate ignorance, stupidity and evilness. And I see much of it around. I hope you, too, can do something about it. After all that’s what is needed: to raise tone level in this society. And it’s done either on a one to one basis or on a more massive basis. I prefer the second route. It’s faster. That’s why I am an I/T Administrator doing it pulling myself from the straps of my boots. I wish this was a better scene. And I respect those who tend to unite a field NOT those who come in and disrupt what’s left of it. Aren’t they ever gonna learn? Hmmmm… reminds me of something. The no case gain stuff…. We have a field. I am a friend with those who cherish it. Even the worst auditor. He is trying. Let’s take care of him. No, no, no… he is to be excommunicated and made known to him that he is out of our circle. Exclusion… exclusion… exclusion. Whereas all that is needed now is Inclusion.
Thanks for the kind words, I disagree in parts… we will be talking as time for me permits.
Theo Sismanides
You guys should take this to email if you want to keep back and forthing.
Couple of things Theo — I dont recall ever preventing you or anyone from commenting here. I have also never said anything about MS2 in spite of their pretty constant rants about how “M&M” are in a GPM with Miscavige and other things. I have decried fundamentalists of all stripes, in or out of the church, scientologist, christian, muslim or bongo-bangers. Some of my best friends are active, practicing scientologists. I don’t bear anyone any ill-will as long as they are nor harming others.
You may disagree that Alex Gibney doesnt get everything right in Going Clear. But the VAST majority of it is painstakingly accurate. And he has done a wonderful job of shining the light on abuses rampant inside the bubble.
Thanks for your well balanced reply, dear Theo ; as I said, I feel that you are a good individual, I honestly do. We disagree in some points, but that’s quite all right ; there is nothing wrong in dissenting. Let’s keep this to e-mails lines as Mike suggested if you would like that.
Anyway, you are very much invited to comm with me any time you wish to. My e-mail is :
thetaclear68@yahoo.com
Much success to you !
ML,
Peter Torres
I am replying to “myself” so I can answer Mike’s and Peter’s comments, as this blog does not allow straight replies to their answers to me.
Mike, thank you. I never said you cut any of my comms. But there can be no serious discussion here when the blog does not allow more than 2 or 3 replies. So, in that way discussion is limited. Don’t worry, I am used to it. From the times of the church.
But what I really said is that you should come out and publicly say something about (if not denounce) the major technical alter-is in the Alex Gibney documentary where the mind is being presented as the brain in that documentary!!!! This is major mistake. So who advised them that the mind is the brain? How come this went by unattended? They talk about the mind and a picture of a… brain with two hemispheres appears on the screen. What is that? Where is this going, Mike? Didn’t those people read the Dianetics picture book? (OK, I guess the Dianetics book would be a bit tougher for them to read).
The whole documentary falls apart because of this major alter-is. If you don’t see the importance of this for future generations and the danger of the technology being lost and seriously alter-ised then I am speechless. Then I am happy the church still exists no matter how good a job Miscavige does keeping everybody under his control and tyrannical regime. At least he hasn’t gone to such a level of alter-is.
Peter, if I find the time I will comm via email. I don’t care about being a good individual anymore. I care if people get the point. And the point is not being good or bad. The point is did we get it? Honestly. Did we get what really Scientology is? I am telling you I feel I know less than 10% of it. And now I see Mike who used to be a high exec endorsing a documentary where the mind is presented as the brain. That’s a major alter-is. Not only we haven’t duplicated what it is all about (especially such basic things as the mind being the… mind) but we now present data in an alter-ised way, filmed by people who probably have no inkling of who they really are (and really don’t give a damn about it like you and me do) but just because they are on the comm lines of the world and their documentaries can reach millions and pass the false data over to them they are given help by the Global Enslavers to do such dirty job: alter-is the basic technology. I can see in some 20 years the Dianetics book being based on this documentary and people wondering if the mind is actually the brain, having to do more with synapses and cells than with facsimiles. A messed up population and messed up children who are never gonna reach for the is-ness of the matter. Just an alter-isness will be available. So no as-isness will occur here as it occurred for me and you some years ago when reading the Dianetics book.
Now, that’s very bad and it takes no more tolerance. Period. That’s the way we make Tom Cruises and idol celebs or even pseudo-gods and pseudo-gurus to pass on to us “the Truth”. By keeping people ignorant.
If you guys don’t see this, it’s your track not mine. You think there are no consequences in overts on the 7th dynamic? LOL ! Endorse false data, endorse basic data alter-ised and you soon find yourselves in a black alley with no end.
That was and that’s what Standard Tech is all about. A path to lead you out. A very narrow path. It’s not that there are no other paths. But the route called Scientology calls for such a path. And it’s a narrow one. It leads somewhere only when you follow it strictly. And it’s not for the mystic. It’s for the lay man. It’s a yardstick for the lay man, like I used to be prior to being aware I am the thetan behind all this, and like billions of others around the world who are in desperation. Alter the path and you have those billions in an even worse condition. It’s a way for them to get them out of the trap and the confusion. A mystic or a researcher doesn’t need to follow the path. But the billions do. They are not in mysticism or any research. They can’t see what’s ahead of them. They need a yardstick and a tool that works.
That’s all. Alter the tool or mess with the yardstick and you get the future of Mankind. War, ignorance of its spiritual side, a highly technical and technocratic world, a lessening freedom of speech, more of a police state and many documentaries by Hollywood people on how the mind (aka brain) works. I don’t accept this as the future of my or others’ kids and I will fight for this. Left and right. Tell mr. Gibney to make a documentary with me if he dares, hahaha! The US thinks they rule the world. Now, you have Islam being very hostile to the US and Europe. Because they kill it’s people through wars for world control. It’s time a spiritual leader and a spiritual politician comes out. That ain’t Miscabage. He ain’t tall enough for this. He reads his speeches and has his hair done to come up on stage and read (not give) a speech written for him. He ain’t original. He is fake and nasty. He is not suit for the job of salvaging a planet in such bad shape. That ain’t the Pope, either. His church is very corrupt and old fashioned tech-wise that even Jesus, if you asked him, would want to change denomination. That ain’t Islam and its prophets as they have proven incapable of bringing peace and basic human values among their people. They have bred assasins and consider women inferior human beings who are there to slavishly serve men. Who is this spiritual leader then? Who is going to stand up and unite the people of the world? There is nobody seen in the horizon. Nobody. So, its you and me left. That’s our chance. That’s the chance we have and we have worked for this. I am not throwing this chance away for petty ARCXs or trying to look nice. And if we don’t do a good job now that we know what we know I am afraid we won’t have a better chance. Because that’s major now. That we know what we know. It’s a win or die in the attempt. And as things are I am afraid we are all dying NOT EVEN IN THE ATTEMPT, unless we change our minds and be honestly KIND with our ex team mates. But Kindness has nothing to do with major alter-isness. I can’t say it more kindly. Insisting that alter-isness does not happen is kind enough. When I was declared in the SO for insisting on the application of the Translations Series HCOBs I was very kind to them to keep on my viewpoint and insist they do get applied. When I was baking bread or was mopping floors and was locked up in the security guards’ dorm I was kind enough to stay with them and insist on those HCOBs to be applied. And after all those years I am still kind enough to keep on saying it. But now it’s 2016 and that was 16 years ago. And we now have 7 billion human beings as the population of earth so another billion has been added to earth’s population since the year 2000. 1 billion people! Who are now max 16 years old. 1 billion of youth. Who has reached for that billion? The governments are gonna reach for them. And we? What are we doing? We can’t even agree to put in place a technology of study compiled by Ron to educate people in more efficient reading and studying. We can’t even agree and do that. Instead each one of us wants his own things, his own blog, group, funs, subsidizers etc. No agreement amongst us. Just shooting at each other. We are either too dump or there are Third Parties operating and plants operating in the Indie field.Yes we are dump as we don’t know much. We can’t even apply Admin Tech. We can’t form groups. But there must be Third Parties too or even worse people who do not have the best intentions for you and me and want to see us fighting all the time. They are behind the scenes but soon they will be at Can’t Hide (anymore).
I am not into this kill the other guy game. I am pro unification of the field guy. And that’s my future path. Uniting people to get some job done. Hope to see you on the same side.
Thanks, Theo
The replies are set to be limited to 5. Keeps it manageable in my view. You are welcome to start your own blog Theo and do things that way you like. I think if someone wants to engage in a lengthy dialogue it belongs on email or in person.
As for Going Clear, are you serious that this is what had the greatest impact on you? Describing the two parts of the mind and showing the brain (if that is what it showed, I dont recall?) That’s a very strange take away and something the vast majority of people will never notice – though a lot more people heard about the reactive mind (if that’s what is important) from this film than all of scientology, “indies” and anyone else put together reached over the last year.
Hi Mike, Following your comments about your blog,I have always been for communication as long as said comm does not harm or personally hurt one.I believe all should express themselves too. I read all here and take or leave comments as I see fit. However I have to say some posters are ” out there…” with ideas that are theirs alone but thought by the sender as the greatest thing since sliced bread! I come here for knowledge laughter conversation and the feeling we are all at Mike & Christies’ talking as good dear friends do.We are links on the chain of freedom from fear from cos and you are doing a Phenomenal Job here.So so appreciated by me.Love,Ann.
🙂
Dear Mike, I didn’t know it’s up to 5 answers. OK, I will keep it short, too.
On the documentarty: yes, indeed. It’s there at 17:31 of the film. Now that’s a major MU and all those people cannot make the grade because they don’t have a clue what really the mind is. That’s sad. But it does reinforce what LRH said about MUs. And this is a crashing MU. You cannot be making a documentary on Dianetics, Scientology and Hubbard and have it sooooo wrong. That the mind is the brain.
I am sorry you don’t see this the way I am but that is major to me. It’s a major alter is and you know what alter is does. I would take Mr. Gibney and that other man (the writer of the book, I don’t recall his name) and I would help them understand. A straight question would suffice: what is the mind according to you? And help them clear it up.
It’s already coming down from psychiatry that the brain is everything. It’s a big failure and a major regression to have to go back to that already resolved matter. Who put that there? In my opinion it’s not a little thing. I am not saying about the film which otherwise was really good although it had no mention (if I remember well) of any Independent movement. What happened to the Independent movement? Nothing. It’s just not-ised by the media. Same old story on this planet.
Sorry, Mike I am bitter but some people have been playing with our lives for many years. I want to get things straight now.
Yeah OK. Nobody thinks this film is a primer on dianetics. If someone is interested in Dianetics and the reactive mind they will find out for themselves. There are a lot worse things turning people off dianetics and scientology than the “crashing MU” that the mind equates to the brain. OMG. Get real. As for the “independent movement” it is not a “movement” and the number of people involved is so incredibly tiny it is insignificant to anything. It does not mean the PEOPLE are insignificant, or that they should not be permitted to do what they do or they should be maligned. It just means in the overall scheme of things, there is nothing to talk about. It’s just the way it is. If you are so certain this is the answer and the problem is misapplication of the tech, how come you don’t have a huge, flourishing group in Greece? What is preventing this from happening? You are there, you have all the tech, you know how to apply it. What’s the bug?
” If you are so c ertain this is the answer and the problem is misapplication of t he tech, how come you don’t have a huge, flourishing group in Greece? What is preventing this from happening? You are there , you have all the tech, you know how to apply it. What’s the bug?”
The bug is that Scn/LRH has the worst reputation worlwide (a very deserved one, by the way) , and they fully KNOW this. So they don’t dare to disseminate much. That’s why they change their Scientology related names at their practices (if they service new public as the Freemans and the Warrens do at Coeur D’Alene, Idaho) , so that others can’t identify them with Scientology, at least not right from the start. That’s also why they protest the Going Clear doc so much. Because they feel they won’t be able to disseminate at all, but only to the already veteran Scientologists.
The irony of this is that they “pulled this in” (to use a “Standard Tech” concept) by remaining TOTALLY silence about things they very well KNEW that were extremely wrong from LRH’s writings. They privately accept this to me ; many of them have. Yet they refuse to go puplic as a group to clarify for the record, that they are against such and such practices and policies. The public resent this a lot, and thus don’t trust them at all. Who in their right mind would put their sanity and spiritual health on the hands of individuals that protect and defend a criminal cult leader ? Nobody would, and that’s why they are dying as a “movement” , if less than 200 individuals in the whole world can even be called a “movement”.
I used to feel bad for them, and even attempted to help them out for quite some time. But when I realized that no matter what I did or said, they would just not let go of their fixed ideas about Scn/LRH , I just quit on them all. They ARE their worse own enemies, but they can’t even see it. A VERY sad state of affairs, indeed.
This is all I am going to say to both Mike and Peter mainly on the subject of the HBO documentary and the horrible scene of the mind being presented as a brain:
From HCO PL 26 APRIL 1970R, THE ANATOMY OF THOUGHT
….
“SANITY IS THE ABILITY TO RECOGNIZE DIFFERENCES, SIMILARITIES AND IDENTITIES.
The people with whom he [the Administrator] is dealing can’t think (in italics for emphasis) to such a degree that they give him insane situations. Such people are not crazy. Their thinking is suppressed and distorted by modern “education”. “You can’t really communicate to anybody because the same word means different things to everyone who uses it.” In other words, all identities are different.
A BASIC LAW is usually confused by students with an INCIDENTAL FACT. This is conceiving a similarity when one, the law, is so far senior to the fact that one could throw the fact away and be no poorer.
When a student or an employee cannot USE a subject he studies or cannot seem to understand a situation his disability is that basics are conceived by him to be merely similar to incidental remarks.
The law, “Objects fall when dropped,” is just the same to him as the casual example “a cat jumped off a chair and landed on the floor.” Out of this he fixedly keeps in mind tow “things he read” – objects fall when dropped, a cat jumped off a chair and landed on the floor. He may see these as having identical value whereas they are similar in subject but widely different in VALUE.
Objects fall when dropped = there is an analytical mind and a reactive mind
A cat jumped off a chair and landed on the floor = the mind is represented by an image of a brain
Exactly Mike, we have a different viewpoint on how we treat the basic laws in Scientology. It looks like for you representing the mind as the brain and erroneously mixing one with the other, as the world largely does, (differences are not different), is of no big significance. You just think this is an incidental fact whereas it’s the basic law that the mind and the brain are two completely different things. Now, that’s the outpoint. The documentary alters the basic law of what is the mind. I don’t have to comment more on this, I think I made my point.
YEs, I think you made my point too.
It’s wonderful how Hubbard was smarter than all of science. He sure showed them all! Stupid neurologists and stupid brain hiding in plain sight. Much more clever to imagine thought processes occurring somewhere else than where they have been tested. 🙂
I see the contamination is rampant here. Welcome to the 21st century. Let’s see who is smarter!
Hubbard, through his high-sounding gibberish and talk about his aims to save mankind, sold a vision of what he wanted his “technology” to be. Scientology is in truth, only a clay demo version of that great vision. People who bought the vision see only the vision and not the clay-demo reality. Scientologists worship the scientology FANTASY they were sold, not the scientology REALITY revealed by common sense and good eyesight.
So short a comment , and yet so much truth in it , dear Roger.
Peter
+ 1.
Dear Theo , with all due respect , I think that you have been manifesting here (to use the Data Series prefessionally) the outpoint of “Altered Importance” with your constant whining that the Going Clear doc portrayed the “mind” as the “brain” and blah, blah, blah, yawn, yawn, yawn.
Of ALL the details of that HBO doc, you keep on insisting on THAT single point – which might have or not even been that way described at the doc- as if it really mattered in the grand scheme of thing ; IT DOESN’T. I am VERY SURE that most viewers didn’t even notice that point, if that point even existed at all. You are just making a big fuss out of NOTHING, really, and are even beginning to sound child-like about this.
People don’t give a rat’s ass whether the mind is or not “located in the brain” , they just want to improve in life and be able to control that mind better REGARDLESS on where the hell it is located at ; stop being so silly about this.
The fact is that your main ARCx with that doc ISN’T that “mind v/s brain” issue, otherwise you would have as-ised it already with so much discussion of it. You are upset (and my apologies for the evaluation, but is required this time, I am not being an auditor to you now) because LRH looked VERY, VERY bad on that doc , and Scn even worse in terms of its MANY destructive policies.
That documentary exposed many lies from LRH, EACH one of which has been TOTALLY WELL DOCUMENTED. Lies DIRECTLY from LRH, and not from the CofS or from the “biographer”.
ANY relationship, dear Theo , ANY, is based on TRUST. If your friends lie to you, specially your leaders upon which you’ve placed your sacred trust , then the foundations in which EVERYTHING is based upon totally crumbles.
EVERYBODY is guilty of lying or doing other wrong things in life. I have committed more O/Ws myself than ANY of you have, I assure you that. But this ISN’T about being a saint , this is about DOING SOMETHING about the things we have done wrong, and about being honest enough to bravely accept our mistakes in front of others. That’s what this is all about. And you Scientologists never seems to grasp this in relation to LRH. LRH NEVER EVER came clean, but cut the heads of those that tried to get him to change and come clean, like Otto Ross’s head. You can ask him if he is still alive ; I have not been able to find him.
You guys can’t just dismiss so easily all of LRH’s lies and destructiveness with your CONSTANT justification, “Yeah, he ‘might’ not have been perfect, but he left this incredible ‘legacy’ to the world”. That’s just horse shit!!! What fucking legacy are you referring to ? The legacy of hundreds of disconnected families based on his policies and writings ? The legacy of constantly fighting a non existing enemy ? The legacy of having LIED to all of us as to the REAL and ACTUAL abilities that the “Bridge to Nowhere” is capable of bringing about, which are not even NEAR to HIS (not DM’s) advertized ones ? The legacy of never having given (after the 60s) credit to all those auditors that helped him research Scientology, and to all those sources from which he derived much of his works ? What fucking ‘legacy” are we talking here , for Christ sakes ?
Wake up and smell the coffee, buddy ; there is NO legacy at all ; PERIOD. Some workable parts ? YES. Legacy as such ? Nothing to amount to ANYTHING.
So keep thinking in outpoints all you want ; I am done with you on this thread already. If you want to discuss something, you already have my e-mail. Have a nice day.
Peter
What I notice about this thread is that you have posted paragraphs and paragraphs about how much LRH lied, but have posted very little about how much he told the truth. This simple word count makes you come across as biased, and this is probably, among other things, that upsets Theo and makes him think you and he see things differently and do not agree. It is a matter of emphasis.
iamvalkov, I wonder if you’re joking. If you are please excuse me but what does it say about a man that you can write many paragraphs about his lies?
I am afraid he wasn’t joking , dear Roger ; you should see his posts at the MS2 blog. But I was courteous enough to answer him , though. :-)))
Peter
Thanks for the comm , dear Iamvalkov. Perhaps you are right , and I do come across as biased in my comments. But if this is the case , I assure you that it is because of missing concepts and ideas about LRH and Scn that I either hasn’t make clear enough , or hasn’t dicussed them in such a way as to make sure that others duplicated it. So now I’ll take advantage of this opportunity to clarify it all for you, Theo, and others here. The following are my exact thoughts on LRH and Scn explained in detail. Once I have discussed them, then it is entirely up to others whether or not to believe that I am being honest about my beliefs and assertions. But honestly, I just don’t give a damn what others believe about me.
How exactly I feel about LRH, and what are my thoughts about him ?
After having been at doubt for almost the last 3 years about the real intentions of LRH, and after having done a lot of soul searching and a lot of research on his life ; I finally decided (based on a lot of evidence accumulated through the last 3 years) that LRH wasn’t a good man, let alone an “humanitarian”. For me, it is 100% clear that he was but a very clever con man.
I feel and am certain that he was just a con man for the following reasons :
1. The “Clear” he described in DMSMH was but only an ideal but never a reality. But he never described such state as only ideal in DMSMH ; he described it as an actuality TOTALLY reachable with the techniques laid out in the manual. He said that he had “records” of it all, but those “records” have not seen the light of day to date ; they have never ever been published in any format (though it should have been considered as a very valuable historical ducument by him and the CofS). Why ? Because they simply DON’T EXIST ; PERIOD. Doesn’t you find rather odd that almost EVERY letter that LRH ever wrote since just an 12 years old kid has been totally preserved ; everything he ever wrote about , no matter how insignificant, but no records of his research as such (the auditing sessions he delivered to others, the cases he “Cleared” and how, etc, etc) has never ever been published nor even talked about ? Doesn’t you find that rather odd ?
His “reason” (the one he always used to justify his failures at research) as to why those DMSMH “Clears” were never made by others, was because those others could never “duplicate” him ; his techniques. But what about all those “Clears” that he allegedly made during his research that lead him to the DMSMH ? Where did they go ? He sure said in more than one ocassion in HCOBs from the 1957-65 period , the he HAD MADE “Clears” with DMSMH techniques. Where did they go ? Where are his session records of it ? Were are the tests he performed on them to validate and verify the state ? LRH was very well known as an EXCELLENT record keeper. The ones who worked close to him knows this for a fact.
I became an expert at DMSMH techniques, and audited close to 10,000 hours of Bk-1 alone in the early ’80s. Hey, I even won a free trip to the almost new Freewinds with EVERYTHING paid for including a free course because I was considered the best book-1 auditor back them. I know that book by heart, almost every line of it. I performed with it what can only be consisered miracles. I can now in PT almost crack any case just using DMSMH ; just that alone. Of course, running more than just one flow with it. And least F1 and F2.
And I was never ever able to make any Mest Clears with it ; not even close. Incredible wins ? Oh yes ; tons of it. Bk-1 to me is the best psychotherapy that I have ever practiced ; and I have practiced quite a few of them. Incredible simple ; incredible powerful. But, do you think it was LRH’s original ? Not AT ALL. But it would take me a whole post just to discuss the DMSMH’s antecedents.
The “Clear” as described in DMSMH just CAN’T be made with Bk-1 techniques. Believed me, I tried.
That was the first lie from LRH ; or let’s just call it, “Exaggeration”. :-)))
2. Even though the Scn Grades are capable of bringing about excellent wins, the wins they DO produce are never as absolute as their “EPs” state they are. One certainly does increases our abilities on those subjects being addressed, but never to the degree that it is advertized. Believe me, most of the Grades completions exhibit all kinds of indicators of out-Grades such as many PTS (financial and otherwise) , comm difficulties, fixed ideas and conditions , stuck in past ARC Breaks, feeling hostile and suffering , being worry and under heavy stress, etc, etc.
I am not talking here of PC-type of individuals with no Scn training, I am referring to well trained auditors. And I am not referring also to PTS Kool-Aid drinkers, I am talking about many, many Indies. Of course, a fanatical fundamentalist KSW believer is going to attempt us to believe that such cases are only the result of “Standard Tech” not being followed to the letter. Oh no ; I am afraid that that is not the case at all.
3. NED produce no real “Clears” as defined in multiple HCOBs, unless one wants to call a “Clear” someone who has cogged on “I was mocking up my whole bank” , but then exhibit all kind of bank dramatizations, and Out-Grade phenomena. You just can’t be a “Clear” , and anyway exhibit out-Grades indicators ; that just doesn’t make any sense at all. If you are “Clear” you are then, allegedly, unrestricted in every aspect as, remember, you “Know” that you are “Mocking it all up”. How on hell can you have a heavy unresolved PTP if you know that you mock up the mental pictures and mental phenomena that trap you in the first place ? That doesn’t make any sense at all.
The fact is that the Bridge from ARC SW to NED, gives excellent wins and changes, but never those absolutes EPs that the Bridge advertizes. In my dictionary that is called FRAUD.
4. The Ls RDs are advertized as super cause boosters with the EP (when the 3 of them done) of “Stably Exterior with Full Perception , not likely to become PTS to anything and anybody”. Now, let’s be honest ; even though that VERY few Ls completions have experienced some (just some) exteriorization phenomena , the fact of the matter that it only is a VERY temporary result lasting perhaps no more than a few weeks at most.
5. Most Scientologists that have audited past lives do so with low degrees of reality, and only find very few of them if compared with all the auditing one gets during the Grades and NED , which is around 350-400 hours average. That’s why New OT VIII is so short ; because the incs that the pre-OT can find in their folders are not that much.
6. LRH allegedly either got audited or Solo-audited in EVERY process and procedure that he ever developed including ALL the SOPs (Standard Operating Procedures) which allegedly brings about the state of Theta Clear. For him to talk in those lectures (PDC, and 1rst-3rd ACCs) about the capabilities of a Theta Clear with so certainty it could ONLY mean that he achieved them himself. I mean, it is only logical to think so. Now, there is NO WAY on hell that anyone possessing those abilities can’t single handed handle ANYBODY ANYWHERE , including ANY government on Earth.
I don’t think that there is any Scientologist in existence that can possibly know more than me about Theta Clears. I didn’t choose my pen name just because I liked the sound of it. And LRH was not even close to ever having achieved such a state ; not even close. If he would have been a Theta Clear, he would have never ever needed the “Snow White” operation to find out what the government was attempting against Scn. And he would certainly have been able to handle anything physically wrong with him including his pancreatitis condition, and his allergies.
What kind of an “OT” (as defined in Scn) is unable to handle his body at will (he was only 74 , an age that many USA presidents are healthty enough, and they are just “wogs”) , and handle goverments ? One either is OT or not ; there isn’t such a thing as a “Sporadic OT”.
The sad fact is that LRH sold us a dream that he NEVER EVER lived himself. Because it all was false to the degree that it was advertized and promised. And that’s FRAUD, dear posters ; that’s nothing but FRAUD.
Now, how on hell anyone who is willing to committ fraud on others is a good individual ? Please any KSW explain that to me as if I were a 5 year old boy ? Just how on hell is that even possible ? All that confidentiality for nothing. Just to hide results, protect against bad PR, and to keep others on the route by the use of a mystery sandwhich. How can you KSW guys even accept that REGARDLESS of the good wins that you might have had with Scientology ? You were all deceived by someone you placed all your trust and faith on. How can you guys not see this ?
7. He created a organization run by slaves most of them almost starving to death while he amassed millions!!! for himself to allegedly finance a “research” that was VERY, VERY far from being close to any promised results. He never EVER had the real intentions to do something effective so that his staff followers could at least earn a decent living. But he could have done it any time, should he really have wanted it. How can anyone who uses slave labor can be a good man ? That’s TOTALLY contradictory, for Christ sakes.
And you are suggesting that I am being biased here, IamYanvoc ? The hell I am ; the hell I am, indeed.
Scientology DOES possesses many good workable parts ; I’ve said that in this blog and others time and time again, if others were really paying attention. My beef is not againt the practice of Scientology as a body of auditing Tech as such, though I think that it is TOTALLY incapable of producing the advertized results, but only a 5-10% at best , and in VERY rare and sporadic cases, a 30-40%. My ONLY beef is with the suppressive and authoritarian/facist policies that violates Human Rights , and with the practice of not publicly accepting, AS A GROUP, the many errors in judgment and even crimes that LRH committed.
Now, I am tired the shit of having to explain this time and time again to no product at all. So any KSW can believe whatever the fuck he wants to believe , and just leave me the fuck alone. I am a very patient man, but not THAT patient. Enough bullshit is enough.
Peter
Thanks for your reply, Theo ; as I said before, we can take this up at
e-mail lines if you want , as to answer you properly would take at least 5-7 pages. But just as a very short answer , I am NEVER at anyone else’s side, but only at the side of Truth , Freedom of thought, Free will, Freedom of religion, and all others Human Rights. The ONLY way to unify the Field (which seems to be your goal) is for Scientologists to be brave enough , and publicly accept (as a group, not just isolated instances of comments at any blog) all the lies that LRH told the world and told to YOU as well , Theo ; and all the destructive policies that rob others of free will and several of their fundamental Human Rights. EACH of you KNOW deep inside your hearts, that LRH did SEVERAL SERIOUS mistakes in judgment that hurt many people , yet you won’t publicly accept any of that, and when some of you DO accept it, it is accompanied with many “buts” and “Yes, but he left a ‘legacy’ to humanity” and blah, blah, blah.
In others words, it is accompanied by many justifications , thus violating your OWN “narrow path to Standard Tech” , and even the lower Condition Formulas. You guys just won’t come out of Liability with the world for that destructiveness inherent in many of LRH’s policies. And UNTIL you guys DO , just don’t expect ANY help from me. I hope that I have made myself clear enough this time. Take care.
Peter
Peter, the type of defenders someone has is very reflective of the type of person you’re dealing with. When I called Theo out on the fact that defense of the Tone Scale showed his innate homophobia, he refused to deny it and doubled down on the defense. He’s still never denied it. And Valkov? He tried to Dead Agent me over at Marty’s. That’s very indicative of the complete ball of flaming dog feces that was L. Ron Hubbard. Only the worst of humanity can defend his philosophy.
And Theo and Valkov, you’ve both forgotten that I’m an Anon. We do not forgive. We do not forget.
Hi Espiando, I want to give you a shout-out for perseverance and thank you for spotting out-points in posts that I miss.I know NOLA girl and I appreciate your viewpoints even if I am the spiritual type,but I really enjoy all viewpoints as long as I do not get to be cannon fodder! Love, Ann.
Yeah, dear Espiando ; I know EXACTLY what you mean. I don’t even feel anger towards them, but only pity . No matter how much I try to get them to understand that their silence in the Human Right abuses issue is what is turning more and more people against them , they never seem to get the point. I am at doubt whether to assign that fixation an evil intent , or to just attribute it to plain stupidity. My God, I was in their shoes some time ago (2-3 years) , but I always listened to sensible arguments against Scn/LRH from others, and was able to easily change my perspective on it. I mean, the BIC’s Admin changed my whole perspective with one single e-mail !!! It didn’t take dozens and dozens of posts for me to see the light. Yet, I’ve written dozens of sensible balanced posts and articles over a period of almost two years , and most KSWs exposed to them hasn’t changed their viewpoint not one bit. It feels like trying to knock down a concrete wall with our bare hands ; one only “succeed” in bleeding through the fists.
Because none of them wants to take that 1rst step , I’ll help them with a script of what they would have to publicly state to help themselves in their cause of carrying on with their religion :
“To all Scientology related Fields ; all groups ; all delivery individuals ; Scientologists and non Scientologists alike :
In the best spirit of fostering the Human Rights, specially the Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech right , we would like to make the following public statements for the record , in the interest of handling past and present upsets with Scientology and/or LRH , and with the intention of redressing the wrongs that any parts of the religion of Scientology might have caused others either unwittingly or by errors in judgment from the founder L. Ron Hubbard.
1. That LRH was a normal human being capable or errors in moral judgment and in his research into the mind and spirit , and wasn’t a god-like individual.
2. That some of the policies of Scientology violate Human Rights , like the policies on Disconnection and the treatment of what is called a Suppressive Person by LRH. The practice of Disconnection and Fair Gaming have affected many lives throughout the years , and even though LRH cancelled them in his Ron’s Journal 68 , in reality these practices continued , including the practices of “Overboarding” and “Chain-lockering” at the Apollo as evidenced by dozens of testimonies of many veteran ex-SO members. These practices, specially Disconnection, have harmed a lot of people. We understand that the founder was misguided in having created them in the first place. We understand that each of those practices violate the Human Rights of others, and we are totally against the use of any of them.
3. That we understand that any religion must be willing to accept criticism from others as part of the Freedom of Speech right , w/out engaging in attacking the critics and dissenters with misguided methods , such as attempts to damage their reputation by hiring private detectives to look for “crimes” to expose ; personal harassment at their homes or work ; or any such method which only shows intolerance towards criticism. We totally disagree with the belief of the founder that any criticism towards Scientology or his person is the result of crimes from those doing so, and that Scn and/or the founder must deal with such disagreements in viewpoints by the use of correct communication , open dialogue , tolerance, and diplomacy. We understand that the Freedom of Speech right of hundreds of individuals were violated by the misguided beliefs of the founder as regards to the “reasons” behind such criticisms.
4. That nobody has a right to tell any individual to whom he should be connected to or not , or to whom he should talk to or not regardless of the alleged harmfulness or lack thereof of such connection. No PTS individual should have never been forced in any way , shape , or form, to disconnect from the alleged antogonistic/suppressive terminal making him/her PTS , that being entirely his/her self-determined decision.
5. That declaring as a Suppressive Person anyone publicly departing Scientology should have never been considered a “Suppressive” Act , as that is only a gross violation of the Freedom of Religion right , which include the right to change our beliefs and support any specific religion w/out the undue influence and interference of anyone, and w/out engaging in any personal attacks to the individuals so departing Scientology either silently or publicly.
6. That many of the “Suppressive Acts” contained in the Scientology Ethics codes violates fundamental Human Rights, and thus , we are eliminating those codes from the religion, and replacing them with the Way to Happiness precepts as a sensible moral code to conduct our affairs as a religion.
7. That anyone can use the Scientology scriptures , and use them as they see fit with any alterations/modifications that they deem necessary, w/out being called “squirrels” , and w/out the undue influence of anyone. When Scn is not being used exactly as written by the founder, it should be clearly made known to others to avoid confusions. When works based on Scn are used , those works should clearly say “Based of Scn” , but not called Scn to avoid confusion with those who would like to stick to and use 100% LRH. But NO personal attacks will ensue towards those using modified versions of Scn as they see fit according to their personal experiences and/or research.
8. That we understand that there are many inconsistencies among what LRH wrote about his past and the official records that have been found. Information about his family record, his academic record, and his war record as described by the CofS and by LRH himself in several of his writings, are contradictory in many instances when compared to the official records found.
9. That we believe in the route called “Standard Tech” as a route that leads to spiritual salvation and increased spiritual awareness, and do not wish to alter/change for the moment any part of the scriptures , except those parts already discussed above which violate the rights of others. we believe that Scientology has its maximum workability when practiced as exactly written by the founder. We believe in our right to practice “Standard Tech” freely and w/out the undue influence of non-believers, and w/out any personal attacks for doing so, but we accept and embrace dissident opinions as to the workability or lack there of the method of “Standard Tech” , as part of the fostering of the Freedom of Speech right.
10. We are publicly against the suppressive practices of the CofS , and believe that the current management of the Church has deviated very markedly from the writings of the founder as to how to administer the Church’s affairs, and that such deviations, all by themselves, have created a scene of heavy abuses and injustices within the Church. We are against DM as a leader of the CofS, and are as well against any system of leadership where a democratic participation from all parishioners to choose such leaders is not being used.
11. We are really sorry for all and any sufferings or harm that the use of any particular policy or writing from the founder had brought upon any parishioner , either in the past or in PT, and publicly wish to apologize for any errors in judgment from the founder that caused such ill effects. We wish and are very much willing to help all those that were so harmed , by offering them our support either with auditing , serving as potential witness in any court of law or forum , or just by being there and listening to them with understanding and tolerance regardless if they now support or not Scn and/or LRH. We believe that the healing of past wounds and their welfare is above any religious beliefs.
12. That in several of the founder’s writings , there are comments as to homosexuality being an illness or mental derangement , whose practice is a low-tone manifestation. We do not share the views of the founder on that , and believe that anyone if free to express their sexual orientation and preferences as part of their Human Rights. We also accept that in several Confessional lists , a question is included as to if the parishioner ever practiced homosexuality , denoting thus that such an event was an immoral overt act. We understand that such questions are misguided , and violate the rights of others as to their sexual orientation is concerned. We understand , in being fair with this issue, that at those times when such comments were written by the founder, the society at large was very misguided in its view about homosexuality, and it was even considered a crime in many countries. Thanks to the constant fight of thousands of freedom fighters, the society in general (and the courts of law) were brought up to understanding their misguided beliefs about homosexuality , and embraced the right attitude of tolerance and understanding for all sexual orientation among consenting adults. We FULLY support that change as a positive one that support fundamental rights. We will eliminate every and each writing from the scriptures that in any way, shape or form, suggest that there is something wrong with homosexuality.
13. That we agree to eliminate the confidentiality issue from the Upper level materials as we understand that there is absolutely no evidence as to any potential harm for others so exposed to them. We will include a warning notice , though, that anyone so wishing to examine such materials, is doing so solely under his/her own responsibility. We understand that the scriptures of any religion should remain totally open for others to freely examine them , and thus be able to make a totally informed decision as to whether or not to engage in the practice of such religion. As long as any part of it remain hidden from view , the data necessary to make a sensible decision about the religion is denied to the individual ; and due to the fact that the the Scientology’s upper level material is a huge portion of Scientology’s core beliefs, fully knowing the contents as such levels is vital for the uninitiated.
14. That the use of Confessionals can not be forced upon the individual , and that if any C/S feels that any given parishioner might need a Confessional to help him handle areas of trouble in the parishioner’s life, the full cooperation and agreement from the parishioners must be obtained before engaging in such a practice. The contents of such confessions are FULLY protected by the traditional priest/parishioner relationship, and fully protected by the priest-penitent privilege regardless of the nature of such acts. No Confessional reading question may be forced upon any parishioner , if he feels that such a item doesn’t represent an overt act to him , regardless if he actually performed such action or not.
To end this broad public statement , we would like to state for the record, that we believe that Scientology has many workable parts that really help the individual lead a happier life with increased spiritual awareness and abilities. We want to freely and w/out any undue influence from non-believers, practice our religion based on the works of L. Ron Hubbard as exactly written by him , excepting the potentially harmful parts already discussed at some points above. ”
END OF SCRIPT.
Now, if any KSW supporter feels that I am being biased, unjust, or prejudiced in my proposal above, then I rest my case as to my belief that Scn is nothing more than a destructive cult, and its practitioners potential criminals.
Peter Torres
Puerto Rico
Thanks for taking the time and trouble to post all that, TC. There is nothing in that I disagree with. It clarifies for me where you’re coming from and I do agree with it.
You are most welcome , dear Iamvalkov ; I am very happy that you can recognize my prosurvival intentions behind my many posts. I only seek proper balance and justice for all parties involved ; that’s all. I hope that other KSW supporters can recognize it as well.
Best regards,
Peter
I’m not sure what you mean – “ksw supporters”? Is that intended to characterize me?
“I’m not sure what you mean – “ksw supporters”? Is that intend ed to characterize me?”
Relax , dear Iamvalkov ; aren’t we all charaterized in some way ? : “a Christian” , “a Buddhist” , “a man” , “a woman” , “a republican” , etc, etc, etc ? There is nothing wrong with characterization. There was no offense implied by “KSW supporter”. It just means someone who considers himself a Scientologist ; who believe that Scientology is a workable philosophy ; and who believe that “Standard Tech” is the way to go. If that description doesn’t fit you , then my apologies for having made any assumptions.
Peter
TC, I recommend this new post Geir made on his blog, and the comments too:
http://isene.me/2016/01/17/odd-exchange/
Mike –
I’m a fundamentalist bongo-banger and I’m going to bang my bongos 100% standardly and without any distortions or lies and you can continue to decry me all you want BUT YOU WILL NEVER STOP ME FROM BANGING MY BONGOS!!!
Alanzo
I don’t know where this post will end up; it is directed to TC and Espiando.
TC, again, thanks for taking the time and trouble to detail your experience with scientology and extensive knowledge of it. It certainly dwarfs my own. I have posted on the MS2 blog probably only half a dozen times, mostly one-liners if I recall correctly and I no idea what you noticed about those posts. Some refresher quotes would be welcome…
Espi, unlike you and Santa, I am not “keeping a list and checking it twice”, and so I have absolutely no memory of what I might have posted, or when, on Marty’s blog to supposedly “dead agent” you. If you could copy/paste it here I would appreciate it. I could compare where I was at then, with where I am at now, to see if there is any difference.
I don’t know what to make of “We do not forgive, we do not forget”. It seems to imply you do not believe people can or do change their minds, evolve, and grow. I would not like to live my life on that kind of basis.
Just can’t see unforgivingness as a virtue, or a position that leads to anyone’s happiness, or even rational social discourse.
Might as well throw this in for Roger H – about what kind of person could one write paragraphs about his lying? Well, psychologists have written whole books about this topic of folks lying. Eric Berne’s “Games People Play” comes to mind.
Thank you for including me in your rational and even-handed comment. As for my rhetorical question asking what is there to say about a man whose lies are the subject of lengthy discussion? Notwithstanding the opinions of numerous experts on the matter of people who lie more than the average person, I think my point was made by merely posing the question. It was in response to an objection that Hubbard ALSO said things that were true so to be fair in our assessments about the man should not those true things be stacked up against his lies?
In my opinion this isn’t the time to be crediting the man for telling the truth SOMETIMES. Right now there are people (I was once one) who are deeply worried about their ETERNITY. An engram planted in their minds tells them there is a law of nature called a “dwindling spiral” and scientology is the only thing that can save them from that unthinkable fate. That belief compels people to do unwise things. It’s my opinion the best cure for that engram is to expose Hubbard as a liar and demonstrate how much of what he said doesn’t make sense or is demonstrably false. Damage repair is indicated so people can slowly regain their ability to think logically and dispassionately without fear for their spiritual destiny.
Again , dear Roger ; so short a reply , and yet so much truth in it !!!
You say in 2 short paragraphs what would usually take me 1-2 pages to explain , and that’s a great art indeed!
Best,
Peter
thetaclear – WOW! WOW! This is news I have been waiting to hear! Much joy.
One point. You have suffered many attacks and will continue to do so as you forge ahead. I hope you will be able to dismiss or at least minimize vendettas. LRH couldn’t do it. If you can you will surely be the better man. Richard
Thanks for your excellent advice, dear Richard ; you are totally right about that. I’ll keep that in mind for sure , thanks. Take care.
Best,
Peter
Hello Peter – This topic was posted jan 10 and comments continue. I’m glad you told us that you preserve all your writings. I would hate to see you spend time writing everything over and over.
Along that line, somewhere above: “I am tired of the shit of having to explain this time and time again . . .” Well, some get it, some don’t. Extricating oneself from cult-mind takes time.
You politely respond to nearly everyone, but it seems some people are just trying to agitate and waste your time.
Best, Richard
Richard : “Hello Peter – This topic was posted jan 10 and comments continue. I’m glad you told us that you preserve all your writings. I would hate to see you spend time writing everything over and over.”
Peter : Thanks, dear Richard.
Richard : “Along that line, somewhere above: “I am tired of the shit of having to explain this time and time again . . .” Well, some get it, some don’t. Extricating oneself from cult-mind takes time.”.
Peter : Yeah, I can see that ; but my God!!! , I had never seen a cult with so much undue influence upon others. It is even worthy a whole PhD thesis to just study it as a very odd phenomena even within the framework of a cult. Scn is no common cult, indeed ; it is THE cult , all right.
Richard : “You politely respond to nearly everyone, but it seems some people are just trying to agitate and waste your time.”
Peter : Yes, indeed they are!!!
Take care Richard ; thanks for your support.
Best ,
Peter
You guys seem to fall back to being “good boys and good girls”. Richard D, what do you mean by Peter being polite? Presidents are always polite but they always wage war. Each and every president of the US has waged war. However, he is very polite.
This is a war that is being waged upon a technology that obviously has irritated many so they had to undo it from the inside and the outside.
It’s good to polite but it does not serve in a war. But as most Christians and homo saps do, they just see how polite the President is. It’s a PRO world after all.
With each comment you make Theo, your lack of rational thought becomes more and more apparent. Fundamentalism of any strip is unpleasant. Your use of the pejorative “homo saps” pretty much seals the deal. You seem to actually believe you are a superior being to norm that walks this earth. Sorry to be the bearer of some hard news to swallow Theo. You are not.
You know Theo , I agree with Mike ; the more you post, the more obvious your fundamentalist approach to all this becomes to others here. I actually like when KSW supporters participate in blogs like this, that is daily viewed by hundreds (perhaps in the thousands) of individuals with multiple viewpoints about LRH/Scn. I do, because others here have the opportunity to see for themselves all the misguided and crooked ideas that Scientologists hold on to ; and that helps others to get away from the cult. So keep up the good work, buddy ; you are making my job a lot easier for me. :-)))
Peter
You don’t know Scientology, Peter. Neither does Mike or Mark and I am sorry they have been high executives. It’s just shows what a limited view Mgmt had. You guys never got to understand it or don’t even recognise that you don’t know it, yet. Otherwise you would be thinking with this data and you would be more respectful to the work LRH did. You are part of this agenda to alter Scientology and give an alter-ised version of it to the world. As I told you, far from me. You fall in the same category with the church where they don’t know which policy to apply under what circumstances. Oh, and you wouldn’t mind the mind being presented as a… brain. That’s your technical level of expertise. You can carry on with your work but the work has already been done. Don’t waste your time re-inventing the wheel.
I carry on with another work. To fight all the black propaganda and ignorance and MUs of people on the subject and their fixed ideas. That’s completely another job and I don’t have to be polite with idiots who just see a horse think it’s a house think it’s a school teacher so they are very respectful to it. And tell others they have to be respectful to it, too.
You just keep digging the hole in which you are effectively burying yourself.
Unfortunately, your view is what is dictated by your belief system. As illogical as it is, you are convinced, like the fundamentalist christians who espouse every word of the bible as absolute truth, that it is just a matter of repeating yourself enough and eventually everyone else will see the errors of their ways and recognize you were right all along. Sad really. But hardly a new circumstance we are witnessing. A lot of us who meet at this blog suffered from this inability to think critically ourselves in the past.
And you keep not being able to think for yourself. The Bible after 2000 and the Scientology writings of 50 years ago. Differences are not different. Your answers are full of out points, generalities and identifications. You are the real fundamentalists of A=A=A.
🙂 excellent Theo. Though I think you have now gone beyond the point of needing to prove yourself further. You have staked your claim to your position without apology and for that I give you a nod of admiration, coupled with a feeling of sadness because you have, like the fish in Lake Tanganyika in DMSMH, been imprisoned in a box of illusion that tells you how to think and view the world.
theo, let me point out it isn’t necessary to know scientology in terms of what you mean by knowing scientology. It is only necessary to see its works, to see what it has done to and for people who know it as you do, to see what it has done to and for the people around them, to see what it has done to and for the community and finally the world. There are no signs of homo novis but there is a lot of carnage. This holds true for pre-Miscavigian scientology.
“Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”
Oh, dear Theo ; you are doing such an EXCELLENT job at showing thousands of viewers of a REAL blog how fundamentalist Scientologists really look like , that I just need to sit down, relax, and enjoy the show ; THANK YOU. Keep up the good work!!!
Hey, don’t forget to tell Lana, Jim, Tom, Chris Black, and those others MS2 guys to just jump on the train, and start posting here as you did. I am sure Mike won’t have a problem with that. We’ll have a lot of fun watching you guys “debate”. At least they’ll have more than those 2-3 replies that they usually get ; that’s for sure. :-)))
Peter
Ι like the “dear Theo” part. Then it’s a total invalidation. So, I am not gonna follow on that track as I do believe Scientology is not worth it. It’s a tool that deserves more decent dialogues and thoughtfulness.
As I read some of your postings (sorry no time to read all of them) I can say that if you did do the Book 1 auditor and got to that high skill then you should maybe spend your time getting some people to get trained and help some others. That’s even acknowledging Source and a way for people to get rid of some situations that are not prosurvival for them.
So, instead of trying to find someone to argue how much in fault LRH was, try to find what good it has done to you and others and stop this relentless and absurd (and unproductive) hunting for KSW victims. KSW is meant for what it was meant. That some mgmt guys couldn’t uphold it and it is now freely used as in black Dianetics and absurdly that is, does not mean that KSW did not and does not have a purpose. And those people who carried that responsibility and couldn’t uphold it carry some responsibility myself included though I was not part of high mgmt. So, each one pays his own due here and those who cannot and will not see this just go one finding ways to justify and not-is their own responsibility in this. How’s that now? So, don’t mess with a wounded animal. It won’t help anybody. Some chose to “escape” and in their escaping have completely not-ised the whole thing so they don’t get crazier.
Now, to keep it on a saner side, the fact that some people misuse the Scientology technology does not mean the technology is at fault. I’d rather say those people did not get it. Maybe for you that’s very simplified and naive but for me it shows the lack of certainty that existed even at the highest levels of Scientology mgmt and that the abuses and misunderstandings started from up there.
External influence and evil intentions against Mankind compounded the scene and Scientology was made to look like another cult. Homo Sap (yes Mike) at his best.
So, whatever you say and whatever you do keep in mind that all this argument does not have any point. It just makes less of the tool you are using. And LRH knew that. In fact, he has written in some non confidential lecture, which I don’t recall unfortunately that the Dianetics Clear was the OT in reality. And of course had he broadly announced that thing the whole thing would have fallen down. Whereas you know that Dianetics is not weak at all. So, LRH knew how to get people moving and he did accomplish what he did because he had that knack.
You can also read more stuff on this here: http://wiseoldgoat.com/papers-scientology/hubbard_story_of_mayo3a_clear.html
So, the point is not who is worse or who is better. We have all a share in this, smaller or bigger. But right now let’s acknowledge one thing: it all started with L. Ron Hubbard. The way it’s gonna go and where it’s going to end up starts with us. OK?
No more comments on this thread. It’s getting to be ridiculous. Sorry Peter, even if you wanted to, I will trash any reply. You can carry on with Theo on email lines if you wish.
Theo, don’t keep using pejoratives here. They make you look bad and the idea that there are lesser humans based on religious belief, sexual preference, ethnicity or anything else makes me ill. Especially on MLK day here in the US. Leave your proud name-calling behind if you want to post on this blog. I don’t like it and I make the rules here.
That’s quite all right, dear Mike ; I already said all I wanted to say to him , and besides no more words will change a thing anyway. Thanks for having allowed the exchange.
Peter
Hi Richard D, I was reading the post above you wrote to TC. I wanted to say I am in agreement with you & TC’s post where he talks about the fact that Ron did hurt people and how that needs to be acknowledged too,I lived that.As far as brains & minds go and what comes first where- too complicated for my set of wires! Ron’s Policies were used as he wanted them to be when he was around, so no matter what brain/ mind I have, I know now when things are not correct.Good, evil etc My spirit rules over the other two anyway. Just my opinion and I love your posts and always TC’s even if my feeble mind can’t keep up with his! XO Ann.
Hello Ann! – Here we are back in yesteryear. lol I haven’t reviewed the additional comments yet but at a glance it seems there is more food for thought. I’ll leave “The Reformed Church of Scientology” or whatever to the big brains but ya know we all contribute here to the collective wisdom. Even very advanced Buddhists have teachers and there are many good ones here. Love, Richard
P.S. I got some feedback once from an ex who had advanced far in Buddhism. His teacher once mentioned “The state of the mind is more important than its content”
Hi Theta Clear, Thank you If I understand you,a balance with whatever aspect of Ron’s Tech one might want to use, would be good. An imbalance on either side good or bad 100% is a position less favorable.Also I feel as the yarn spinner he was Ron borrowed so much fron others, rolled all that up and un-rolled Dianetics & Scientology! Always Love,Ann
“Hi Theta Clear, Thank you If I understand you,a balance with whatever aspect of Ron’s Tech one might want to use, would be good. An imbalance on either side good or bad 100% is a position less favorable.Also I feel as the yarn spinner he was Ron borrowed so much fron others, rolled all that up and un-rolled Dianetics & Scientology! Always Love,Ann”
Yes , dear Ann ; everything is about balance in life ; the “Ying and Yang”. And yes , LRH borrowed a lot from others , though there is nothing wrong with that , and is even expected , if the author gives the correct credit to others. He didn’t. Take care , dear.
Love,
Peter
The simple answer to not giving anyone credit is that having his name on the bottom of everything gave copyright protection. I don’t see any solution to that other than go ahead and use what you want. As CoS declines it probably wouldn’t be a problem anyhow.
As usual I like very much your viewpoint Peter. I think, being a little bit more “pro LRH” than you, I move slightly in your direction to recognize the autoritarian attitude in the third dynamic practice of scientology.
you said “Standard Tech” is FULL with many “Wrong Why(s)” and a TON of outpoints. It is as if the man who wrote the Data Series wasn’t the same man that created “Standard Tech”.
That’s right, but also, he developped Data series in the 1970, and in it he challanged his ethics why written in the 1960. Lot of small details I could quote.
Hubbard was non authoritarian on the early fifties, with “an essay on management”, lecture “attitude and conduct of scientology”. Those texts are “non fascist”. In the 1970 with Data Series Hubbard is quite smart and don’t take position as the boss but more as a free adviser. The PR series have some good shot too, particularly with the “Glutz PR” (morons who write Freedumb, don’t understand shit to it).
You see Hubbard is doing some sort of roller coaster between sort of very liberal and cool, and access of fascism!
In 1962 he write “ARC X and MWH”. Morons loves it, it’s “simple”. Horror for PCs, it stuck them in guilt and MWH of nothing. In 1963 he writes “Cause of ARCX” just plain liberating, what a fabulous text. But he doesnt cancel ARC X and MWH still adored by idiots.
We could tell so many more exemples.
The last roller coaster was from 1982, were he become highly fascist, reinstate sec checks with a vengeance. It’s 1965 expanded! But my take was that is at this time no longer Hubbard who write all that. It’s so much in contradiction with Data Series.
I also believe Hubbard was in a terrible affliction to have such stupid followers, and then don’t let things open to interpretation.
Then his sin is to believe that scientology could be understood by anyone. And this is not true.
He explain it well in “anatomy of thought”.
He became a fascist in trying to spread his philosophy. it’s not new in the world.
Any philosophy is just good for those who can understand it.
FG : “As usual I like very much your viewpoint Peter. I think, being a little bit more “pro LRH” than you, I move slightly in your direction to recognize the autoritarian attitude in the third dynamic practice of scientology.”
Peter : Thank you , dear FG ; I am glad that you can recognize it.
FG : “You said “Standard Tech” is FULL with many “Wrong Why(s)” and a TON of outpoints. It is as if the man who wrote the Data Series wasn’t the same man that created “Standard Tech”.That’s right, but also, he developped Data series in the 1970, and in it he challanged his ethics why written in the 1960.”
Peter : Yes , I agree ; the Data Series emphasize more “lack of hat” as the reason for out-ethics activities than attributing them a malicious intent. It seeks sane solutions to things. It seems that LRH was undergoing good processing when he wrote them, :-)))
FG : “Lot of small details I could quote.Hubbard was non authoritarian on the early fifties, with “an essay on management”, lecture “attitude and conduct of scientology”. Those texts are “non fascist”. In the 1970 with Data Series Hubbard is quite smart and don’t take position as the boss but more as a free adviser. The PR series have some good shot too, particularly with the “Glutz PR” (morons who write Freedumb, don’t understand shit to it).”
Peter : Got it , I agree. I also think that the PR Series are quite okay , if used sanely and w/out fundamentalism.
FG : “You see Hubbard is doing some sort of roller coaster between sort of very liberal and cool, and access of fascism!”
Peter : My same assessment of it. He was R/Cing like hell.
FG : “In 1962 he write “ARC X and MWH”. Morons loves it, it’s “simple”. Horror for PCs, it stuck them in guilt and MWH of nothing.”
Peter : Yeah specially M/W/Hs of nothingness by the ton. That and the fact that most auditors ( 0-V ) never really understood what a Missed Withhold is because they never listened to all BC lectures about it. ANYTHING the PC is withholding REGARDELESS if it is an actual overt act or not (most of the time it ISN’T) , which the auditor missed to find out , IS a Missed Withhold. But many auditors were actually looking for “confessions” of actual over acts , and not things like , “I saw you scratch your face and , and it distracted me from the session” , or “When you scratched your face ,I wondered why”. Those examples ARE Missed Withholds as well. But the asking for them is even accusative as most PCs think of a M/W/H as something he did wrong that is withholding , and he can even get more upset over a W/H of nothingness!!!
A more proper question would be somethinfg like , “Is your attention on anything ?” and just acking any answers. Or even , “Have I done anything wrong in this session ?” , and acking any answers w/out explaing away any errors , and not becoming sort of propitiative to the PC neither , but keeping a professional attitude. Those questions are a much better handling. If the PC is still critical (and not GIs ) after those Qs , then we can use the M/W/H one. Why accuse him ?
FG : “In 1963 he writes “Cause of ARCX” just plain liberating, what a fabulous text. But he doesnt cancel ARC X and MWH still adored by idiots.”
Peter : Yeah , I remember ; “ARCxs caused by generalities”. Most of the time that’s the reason. In fact , the reason we have the ARCU and then the CDEINR , is to handle the “Generality” of it all. One usually feels upset , and doesn’t know exactly why ; it is a “general feeling” ; a nonlocated charge,
FG : “We could tell so many more exemples.The last roller coaster was from 1982, were he become highly fascist, reinstate sec checks with a vengeance. It’s 1965 expanded! But my take was that is at this time no longer Hubbard who write all that. It’s so much in contradiction with Data Series.”
Peter : Don’t lose perspective that he might have just gotten caught in the Term/Oppterm of it all , and fell to the “Dark Side”. He began to dramatize that which he fought.
FG : “I also believe Hubbard was in a terrible affliction to have such stupid followers, and then don’t let things open to interpretation.”
Peter : Yes , but he actively sought to have that control over them. Otherwise , he would not have ever written KSW#1 in the first place. He WANTED to control people , that’s the simplicity of it.
FG : “Then his sin is to believe that scientology could be understood by anyone. And this is not true.
He explain it well in “anatomy of thought”.”
Peter : I agree in the aspect that not anyone can become an auditor and a C/S. In fact , no more than probably 20% have what it takes.
FG : “He became a fascist in trying to spread his philosophy. it’s not new in the world.Any philosophy is just good for those who can understand it.
Peter : Yes , I got that ; but a philosopher , a real one , never imposes , but let the ideas take their natural course.
Thanks for the chat , my friend.
Peter
You’re a good person FG and too kind to Hubbard. ~Chris Thompson
Thanks for posting this. I have been catching up on your posts and I see you are a lot more balanced than my first impressions led me to think, and you do credit the constructive aspects of scientology. I do feel it is important to air the truth about it all. A book I like to recommend to those who are trying to make sense of scientology’s history is titled “Beyond Belief” by Elaine Pagels. She is a scholar of early Christianity who has written several books about the so-called “gnostic gospels”. I found the history of scientology remarkably recapitulates, in a time-compressed form, the same patterns that are seen in the history of Christianity and the politics surrounding its establishment. And probably Islam, too, as well as closer to home, sects like Mormonism. Religious history does seem to repeat itself; this has led me to believe that the roots of the problems lie deep in the nature of the human psyche. Anyway, I do heartily recommend this book to anyone trying to understand it all. Its complete title is “Beyond Belief – The Secret Gospel of Thomas”
That reminds me……I have to order Marc’s book. It’s one I haven’t read yet
Great book , to be read in one take…
This is an important post on how YOU can do something.
The Cult of Scientology has used Hushmail for poison pen letters for some years.
This is strictly against the Terms of Service of Hushmail where their platform may not be used for anonymous
hate mail targeting any one person.
If you receive a poison pen hate mail,
Write to
https://www.hushmail.com/contact/abuse/.
What is needed is NAMING ‘Church of Scientology International” and sending them their contact page to tell them to knock it off.
http://www.scientologynews.org/contact
You see, Hushmail may not know it is the Cult.
Try to reply, and tell them to fuck off.
Sometimes he account is already “not a known user”
Because they HIT and RUN.
If you prefer to complain these violations by phone
Hushmail
Email: Contact us by email
Phone: (604) 685-6937
Monday-Friday, 9AM to 5PM Pacific Time.
If you wish to complain on Twitter, cc Hushmail at @hushmail.
Hi Karen#1, Thank you for your important post. I have saved it for reference if and when needed.So glad you post here.Love,Ann
Greetings Ann Watson,
Poison Pen Cult who hides behind anonymous hate mail recently
sent out a couple of hate mails on me.
Oh the LULZ.
I had to laugh out loud on an Email query on the Hushmail hatemail me ~~
“Karen, did the poison pen Email also accuse you of making your staff lick the bathroom floor with your tongue ?
Did it also state you body slammed people to the ground, punched and beat them and made them clean toilets with a toothbrush ?”
“No” I responded. “But it did accuse me of yelling at someone.”
LOLOLOL
Hi Karen#1, LOL Indeed! Karen#1 you are my shining beacon of Love Laughter and so much Light! A keeper of a post! Love Always with deep admiration, Ann.
Yes, thank you, Karen, for your post! … It definitely WILL come in very handy for some very near-future references…
And I hope everyone here knows just how appreciative I truly am for Mike’s blog! – It’s like the Energizer Bunny holding a GOLDEN, GAUDY SLEDGE HAMMER—engraved with “little dick” in diamonds on it! (It’s about time that little twerp got some real auditing!)
This blog just keeps on proving that ***THE TRUTH AND BRAVERY ARE VERY CONTAGIOUS!*** AND, YES, SOMETHING CAN BE DONE ABOUT IT!
Thank you for so eloquently and deftly dismantling the backwards logic. It breaks my brain trying to follow the twisted path of their “explanations.” Honestly, Miscavige’s victim complex is the most amazing part to me. He is constantly using it to doge any and all culpability for his actions, and deny knowledge of any wrongdoing under his nose. If he’s such a big being how can his actions have so little effect? I just… ?
Like saying Henry David Thoreau is responsible for the Unabomber….. utterly ridiculous.
And “The Catcher in the Rye” incited numerous shootings…
Actually it’s even worse logic because the maniac was incited by reading a factual account- Headly’s book is totally devoid of loaded language and reads like a straightforward account of real events. If you see something, don’t say something, apparently.
Headley did not advocate bomb threats, anymore than the Koran instructs killing people, pro-lifers advocate killing Planned Parenthood staffers or the Bible tells people to hate gays.
jgg2012, that seems like a cowardly remark but perhaps it’s a milestone in bravery for you. If so, I say keep on trying and don’t let dandruff or the escalating price of chewing gum discourage you.
OSA limps in, lamely. The bible doesn’t tell people to hate gays, it just says to stone homosexuals to death. The Koran doesn’t say to kill ‘people,’ just “kuffir” (apostates, or non-muslims, or heterodox Muslims, depending on who you ask). Diantetics doesn’t tell men to hate women, it just says that they’re probably cheating on you, talking shit about you and trying to abort your child. The thing that all three of these have in common is that they were written by primitive assholes. The thing that the Bible and Koran have going for them is that they are at least old. Religion causes far more problems than non-religion, even if that religion is really a pyramid scheme.
Hi there, jgg2012, if Headly didn’t advocate it, I DO! I DO! … LOL … I hope he gets a nice fist bomb right up his little ass! (I couldn’t resist!) LMFAO in Brooklyn. And please DO tell him. They’re the best regards I can think of for him right at the moment! 😉
OK, let’s pretend for a moment that we are actually buying this “logic.” This raises a much bigger question.
Why would a “church” of all things, sponsor hate sites against people who have left and/or disagree with them? Why would that “church”post things about these persons that it KNOWS to be lies?
We need to remember that scientology currently has well over 12 million members. Due to their multitudinous wins, they are all fired up. They also know about KSW, and the absolutely need to obey Hubbard’s policies on fair game and such. All 12 million of them are trying to do right by “source” and are ready to take on the infidels.
Is this “church” trying to start a blood bath?
Meh…More like a little kids wading pool.
Todd, Why you ask? Because the CoS believes that the fate of all mankind and indeed all beings in the universe rest with its success … thus ANY person who does ANYTHING that is considered to impede this righteous mission is considered to be helping to keep all beings imprisoned for eternity. Thus that justifies whatever the CoS thinks needs to be done to stop them. Now even if the first part of above is true, the CoS is INCREDIBLY stupid/evil as it keeps identifying highly trained Scientologists and former dedicated Sea Org members as the people who need to be destroyed to save mankind. Yes, “clear the planet” by kicking out the best tech and admin personnel. Makes sense in the bizarro Scientology world. They read the Data Series and remain clueless and unable to think. They get audited to free themselves, but in their CoS activity become completely other determined. They do objectives and TRs and are completely unable to observe and perceive. Go figure.
Hi Joe Pendleton, A fantastic, painfully true post. Thank you from my heart.Love, Ann
Oh man, look at the phrase in Scn’s anonymous accounting “ . . . This triggered a sailor, who had merely read Headley’s book, to institute an online bomb threat . . .”
This right there tells you the writer is doing a twist job. Let’s see, duuhh, how can I persuade the reader it’s all Headley’s fault? Let’s see, duuhh, I’ll just say, duuhh, that out of all hundreds of factors twirling in this crazy guy’s head that MERELY reading the book got him to post the threats.
So artificial! Like an Anti Radio Waves Society activist PR man reporting that “ . . . Capone, who had MERELY listened to the radio this morning, went on a rampage . . .”
But regardless, there is no smoke without fire. The next step is What is that fire all about?
What is it called when Scientology communicate using the written word? It’s right on the tip of my tongue….OH! Got it! Propaganda.
Reading a scientology propaganda brochure “triggered” more than on person to join a cult and give them all their money. I guess–by their reckoning–that means it’s time to outlaw scientology!
They are positioning this guy with being a “sailor” but I can’t see why: What does it mean? Is he an enlisted US Navy seaman? A civilian mariner?
If it’s the former. isn’t the USN well thought of?
If it’s the latter, the US Merchant Marine is so small, in numbers of US flagged ships and working seamen, I imagine that the majority of Americans has no opinion of it at all. Or confuses Merchant Marine with the US Marine Corps.
More wierdness from those OSA PR idiots!
Hi civmar, Thank you for posting because now I feel less dense about the use of ” sailor “Laughter- was I confused! Love Always,Ann
Let’s see, he wore a shirt and he made these threats, so wearing a shirt caused him to do it.
Actually, it was caused by the phone book which he got Miscavige’s number from.
This is true of Islam, too, which has left a bloody trail through history and continues standing conflicts where it rubs shoulders with other cultures today. Not long ago, the UN tried to pass a resolution, fostered mainly by Islamic countries, to make offending Islam a crime — since Muslims are offended by even rational questions about their beliefs, misogyny, and overall system, that’s a pretty low bar. (Muslim UN members did manage to block a resolution on non-violence and human rights that would have included abusing wives — since that is a “right” of Muslim husbands, they could not let that stand).
The same babyish reaction to criticism is true for Scientologists, too, prompting Seinfeld to make fun of the hyper-sensitivity in one episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFBznGJbghQ.
In the meantime, the US Congress has had a bill introduced that would in effect make it illegal to “offend” Muslims, since any words can offend Muslims whenever they choose to be offended, and there are movements in the US and Europe to introduce Sharia courts and what amount to anti-blasphemy laws. (UK reportedly already has over a dozen Muslim-run Sharia courts that run their own legal system.)
While religionists — both in Scientology and Islam as well as others — demand respect and demand that no one ever be able to criticize or upset them, there is no reason a free, supposedly enlightened, secular country anywhere should give any system based on blind belief, destructive practices, and ignorance the slightest nod of respect, protection, or tax benefits.
Scientology, which likes to play the victim of oppressed minority just as Islam does, is posing a threat to our First Amendment rights in blaming Headley as the “sole source” of a threat on on Miscavige. Unless what Headley wrote is “provable bullshit” (it is not) then one could argue that Miscavige himself is the root provocation. And anyone who blames Headley’s book has to ask why did this one person threaten (after merely reading the book) Miscavige, when many thousands have read the book? Could it be that the person who carried out the attack was responsible for his or her own actions? Or, in the wake of Paulette Cooper’s experience from decades ago, is Scientology setting up another person who they goaded to the action?
With pressures from Scientology, Islam, and political correctness in general, we cannot ever let our First Amendment rights be curtailed, and have to resist and be vigilant against the idiotic caving in of free speech whenever anyone snorts that they are offended by what we have said. We cannot cave in to bullies who pretend to be victims.
Hi FOTF2012, Another very interesting post.The best line to me is,” We should not protect bullies who pretend to be victims.” How that echoes in my head, because I was tapped a bully while my interrogators sec-checking robots fancied themselves victims instead of the other way around, which was the true nature of the beast. Thank you.so much for your thoughts. Love, Ann
Hi FOTF2012, Sorry your line was”cannot cave into to bullies who pretend to be victims” Your post was higher up and @ 64 who knows what my mind can remember!! Laughter. Ann.
Extremely well said! Thanks
excellent thought, thank you
The relevance of your message to the well being of humanity at this time can not be emphasized enough. The virus of political correctness that has infected the governments of the so-called free world, unless addressed, will sooner rather than later make the worst plaques in history look like a common cold. .
cool post. bfranks
Anyone interested in a perfect and detailed example of scientology delusion, check out one of Geir’s latest posts about a comm cycle he is engaged in with an apparent Scientologist. Geir is planning to post updates as this truly demented conversation proceeds.
http://isene.me/2016/01/17/odd-exchange/
Thanks , Iamvalkov ; that was a VERY interesting exchange between Geir and that Scientologist. I do hope that he keep it updated.
TC
Nice analysis, Mike – and this is along the line of an earlier post as well. There is no administrative technology in Scientology. It is a gross misnomer.
Green on white is a policing tech. Policing is very different from management or administration. It deals with how to keep people “in line”. This should have become perfectly clear when reading the LRH essay about management. According to him good management boils down to finding and sorting out the bad apples.
That should give one a clue.
In this context the real application of the data series is twofold a) to have a tool for scapegoating b) to dazzle the naive with ever new ‘whys”.
Life is complex and any incident has a multitude of ‘causes” and almost everything is connected in some way. As demonstrated in the examples of this post picking one ‘why’ is just an arbitrary act of prejudice or even a calculated attempt of scapegoating a person.
This works in the simple world of pulp fiction and the mind of the naive and gullible. The real art of LRH was to convert us and make us all part of a world of pulp fiction. A world where Ron is the savior of mankind and anybody having any doubts about it being the evil that keeps us all down. Finally all the complexities of life are distilled down so even the dumbest of us can have a narrative which saves them from life’s complexities and finally makes it all clear with 100% confidence.
So we got presented the “whys” (from David Mayo over anonymous SPS, the psychs and the Marty Rathbuns and so on) and while being told about the thorough investigations that uncovered the “whys” nobody ever asked to see the documentations of this research and the reports and facts that were found. A simple reference to the ‘data series’ did suffice. “Ah, they used that, so all is in good order.”
It all starts with misnaming a policing system as a management or administrative system.
Green on white is the tech of how to police people, nothing else. So it should not surprise anybody it is not producing any workable results when applied to areas of management or administration. The data series is the gallows on which to hang the offenders at will.
Hope that demystifies some who are still believers of the “admin tech” and see it failing over and over gain.
Hubbard’s attempt to ‘bend’ the course of history in his direction?
I’ve been bent before but I’ve never changed the course of anyone’s history. I’d like to try it, though. Sounds like fun!!
Brilliant post Gerhard.
Thank you Gerhard. I really enjoyed that.
I may be wrong, probably am, but having been GO back In the day, it is a possibility that these crazies coming out of the woodwork are OSA generated to pull in sympathy for scientology with the Oscars coming up. It is no more insane than other ops that were run in the GO and no matter how loud David Miscavige protests, lots of current OSA staffers were former GO staffers. SSDD.
What are the odds of three separate crazies coming out of the woodwork (death threats against DM, car driven into org and now this) in less than a month? It’s possible with all the bad PR scientology is getting I’m sure the nutters are feeling more free, but in the back of my mind, it feels like the “bad old days”.
Hi Valerie, Yes it feels very much like that to me also.It will be 28 to-nite in Baton Rouge, so I’ll crank up the gas fire and let the flickering light keep the bad ghosties from the past at bay. Love, Ann
Stay warm Ann B.! I know you Southerners aren’t used to this cold.
28 overnight? Ah, here in the upper Midwest where it was 14 degrees all day, 28 would bring a smile!
A good excuse to use the fireplace and drink hot cocoa, with or without a little ‘extra’ added!
Hi Chee Chalker, Thank you really good to hear from you! My old blood can’t take the cold anymore.I do remember vividly growing up in Boston,Ma and every weekend for years and spring and winter breaks from school my late parents were ski nuts and had me all over New Hampshire and Vermont skiing in the 50s 60s & early 70s.It could get really frigid in Stowe,VT. But being I was in Hawaii from 6 months to 5, I much preferred swimming and the sun. Twenty years in Baton Rouge and is my blood so thin! Laughter! But I would visit you in the cold and enjoy it greatly I am sure! That old train whistle coming out of the foggy night,dm do you hear it? Going Clear…is rising.Love,Ann.
Nice post Ann. ~Chris Thompson
What are odds, “must be…1 in 3!” Christopher Lloyd as Jim Ignakowski in taxi.
Speaking of the odds, how much of the winnings from the billion dollar Power Ball Lottery should be spent on taking out the Demented Midget to hasten the arrival of the Beach Party?
Well, duh! All of it!
Isn’t it just pathetic when the bully plays the victim?
The levels Miscavige will go to, to dissuade his father from releasing his book, are appalling.
I’d like to see a bunch of victims go into an org and play the part of the bullies. I’d bring food & drinks so we could have a party!
Target 1?
Yeah, that’s what I’m thinking.
Dear Marc, Could you write another book?
FOTFLMAO!!! Now that’s some funny shit!
Think he already has one loaded in his double barreled word processor. And Ron, Sr is working on one. BTW, Dave, I knew Ron, Sr and you are no Ron, Sr. LOL.
I knew Ron Sr. I worked with Ron Sr. Sir, you are no Ron Sr.
Response from Quail: That was uncalled for, Senator.
Dave, Also knew Marc Headley and you are no Marc Headley, either. LOL
Hey Oracle – Speaking of books, have you ever considered writing an autobiography? If not a book then maybe a website which chronicles the evolution of your thinking and relationship to scn. Your contribution to the flow of discourse about scn is extensive and thought provoking. Your personal thoughts and progress through “post scientology awakening” would be an interesting read. Much or even all of your progression could be pulled directly from earlier posts you have made, especially imo from 2014 on at Marty’s blog. If you get around to it please include your childhood episode about buying “The Sound of Music” record for your Mom while she was on an LSD trip! LOL Richard
Laughter! Thank you for your kind acknowledgement. No, I do not think about writing about me or my thoughts or life. I have a strange condition. I don’t think at all unless someone asks me a question or lays a thought on the table in front of me. If someone is in front of me and asks me a question I can answer it. If someone makes a comment I can add to it. If someone needs to know something I can tell them. My head is like an ATM machine, totally not working unless someone slides a card (question, thought or comment) through it , and prompts a withdrawal. Not since Scientology, it has always been like that. Everyone thought I was deaf and dumb until I was two years old and someone slammed a door on my fingers. I do have realizations I can share, about current conditions. I guess I am kind of like an animal. I do have perceptions that I have noticed, other people do not have. Things that animals would have. But my file clerk is the best. I’m really good at games and math. I’d make a good hunting dog.
Oracle, that explanation of your “non thought” processes is one of the most fascinating posts I’ve EVER read here or on the Bunker. “No thought” sounds much like being in deep meditation a great deal of the time. Since getting into the habit of doing it, I’ve discovered I have long periods – even while driving – when I have no thoughts at all. Feels very peaceful to me. But to be born and living that way…wow! Thank you for sharing that. ALL your comments will henceforth be “different” when I read them.
I think my thing in social intercourse, in the conversations and the blogs, is that I , and I think maybe everyone, become irritated when things do not “add up”. I know right away when something does not belong in an equation. When something does not add up.
In the Scientology arena,, many things do not “add up”. There are missing factors, false accounting, it is littered with false sums, Mike is doing a great service by pointing out these inconsistent issues with the culture and the subject. There is a lot does add up with me, with the subject matter in Scientology. When I was involved I was on top of what added up, and what did not and I kept the ledgers straight in my mind. For me. Until I could not, then I left to sort it out from a distance.
But with the actual culture, the people, this for me, has become a fascinating math problem. And the information Mike, Marty, Karen and many others, has entered into the accounting, begins to sort out the ledgers.
I believe the accounting can be gotten into order, what is a value, what is a negative or a tax. What can be carried forward as an asset and added to other dynamics. What and/or who needs to be discounted as a value when it is not, it is a liability.
The average person becomes frustrated with math. It is a different language and there are many symbols. The symbols in themselves mean nothing, they are just representing values. More, or less. They either mean more, or less.
And Scientology, and the culture that bubbled up around it, parallel a mathematical mind, because you always need to add all important equations to come up with a proper sum. Which becomes a relative truth. There are also many symbols and it has it’s own language. There are false equations entered from attitudes. Attitudes actually have little value.
The fanatics are overwhelmed by the math and become “believers” who just believe it all adds up all of the time. Because it got lost on them long ago. I have not met one of these people who can actually think with, use or apply any of it to a good result.
The haters are on the other end of it. None of it adds up anywhere, and they too at some point got overwhelmed trying to stay on top of the math.
Well, this is my theory.
I’m just still working on the math. And Mike really devotes his time to correcting the math full time and the bad addition does not escape him.
I just itsa in these circles when I have found an error in the accounting or one is pointed out to me.
But I feel I am on top of the most fascinating math problem I have come across in a long time. And that my time in sorting out values will add value to my futures.
Really grateful for this blog and the others that forward valuable information.Mike Rinder is a brilliant accountant.
Recently, I discovered “collateral damage” as a factor that I was not able to think with on the ledgers, that I could not wrap my head around before. I had misplaced values. And that really straightened up the books in my mind. I was able to offload a lot of files.
Oracle – With ARC I say back at you – humbug.
I often go back and pick a topic to read at Marty’s blog, not for scn info but to consider and learn from the philosophical discourse there. Recently I looked at “Scientology: Witnessing and Prohibiting” Jan. 12, 2014. At the beginning of that topic you wrote down four or five “pages” in a row of insightful comments. Your commentary includes emotional aspects which “pings” for many people.
At least in scn version one there was the idea of exploration into the unknown or undiscovered. I believe there is a historical perspective here that will be considered by others long after you and I have passed into the void. lol
So please understand I don’t wish to lay a burden on you. I just like your “stuff”, occasional rants and all, and would enjoy reading all of it in one place. So for now I’ll just enjoy it as it comes up. smiling
Oracle – OK, reading back again, especially with thegman’s comment, I hereby retract “humbug”. Sorry for the eval/inval. 🙂
No don’t apologize. I love inval and eval. I have to sort it out and when I do I find new answers. I remember what I know. XXOO
Marty was able to provoke many thoughts and ideas from people. He hit on big items for me. I had to go back and read what I wrote, daily, to figure out what I knew. I often thought I was channeling , just,, someone else was talking through me. I would write something, and when I re read it it was news to me. My own words were news to me.
This is why I got into the auditing in Scientology, to find out who I was. Because, I really have this blank issue. I don’t “think” on my own. There doesn’t seem to be a reason to.
If you were all alone in the middle of space, would you having any conversations? Why would you? It is like that for me 24/7. Have you ever seen me start a conversation? Why don’t you think I have a blog?
I am not creative or imaginative or artistic. I can dance well because beats and rhythm are mathematical. I can answer questions and add to conversations.I can overcome challenges toward known goals because that is mathematical too. I can get anything done. That does not require thought at all. Just, adding things up all the time. Or noticing well when things do not add up. I can put things together to add up to something.
I am like the animal sitting next to someone on couch. The person moves and then the animal does. Otherwise they sleep and eat. They aren’t thinking. But I can communicate with animals.
This life isn’t “my moment” and it is not supposed to be about me. My moment is way later, like a little under 1,000 years from now. Right now I am supposed to learn, for when my moment comes. I’m supposed to know my moment when I’m in it. Then it will all add up. That’s all I know. So, I just stay focused on learning. I just keep forgetting what I know until someone asks me. Then it is all there in a neat file. I’m uh…hunting and gathering. LAUGHTER!!!
Oracle – Laughter!!! You are one of a kind although we may have some similarities which I’ll mention in a bit.
First of all in that topic I mentioned above you posited that auditing was conversation. Our brief written conversation here brought up an issue for me, not scn related but a personal character defect, that being my own arrogance. So my tail is between my legs for a bit but I’ll recover. Thanks for “auditing” me through that. Whatever works, right?
I also am not creative, imaginative or artistic, but I am a very good mental plagiarist. I sometimes try to find an original insight but it seems they are all borrowed or stolen from others. I like them all anyway. lol I suspect my mental processing speed is a bit slower than “average” but I usually come up with right answers. As with you this might be a born-with condition – or – fried brain cells from my hippy days. lol Best to look forward rather than back anyhow.
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts. Happy hunting and gathering. Lots of good stuff to eat out here. Richard
Well, I have to go somewhere and I will be off the grid for a bit. I’ll give some “original insight” to chew on. Did you ever think about the fact that knowledge and information is on chains just like engrams? And false information holds the charge and locks down the chains? And the analytical mind can be a bigger burden than the reactive mind? Because nobody looks in that direction. But if one is into knowing how to know that could be important. False information and false knowing can be a huge source of charge. Who or what would need an analytical mind? Just your file clerk. It’s all quiet until someone requests a folder. 🙂 Happy trails.
Hi The Oracle, Happy Trails. Until we meet again. Love, Ann
Oracle, you posed the question: “Who or what would need an analytical mind?” Then you said, “Just your file clerk”. What about the doer/enjoyer commonly called the “person”? Doesn’t that one need an analytical function to enable the distinguishing of differences and the solving of problems? That entity also needs an emotional function to initiate action. The aim of all action is to satisfy desire. The so-called, “file clerk” is kept busy at the behest of the holder of desire we call the “person” who is a composite of analytical and emotional functions.
The person needs the analytical mind in the continuing effort to satisfy desire. When desire is satisfied the “file clerk” gets a rest and the mind goes quiet until the next desire pops up. That “quiet” is what we really seek. The alternative to chasing our desires is to know our Self as that peaceful satisfaction.
Hi RogerHornaday, An excellent post for today. Thank you! Love, Ann.
Thank you, Ann. The yogis say the aim of all action, thought and desire is to express love. Most of us miss the mark a lot but your aim is consistently true.
Hi RogerHornaday, I am most humble. Since I arrived here I have always followed the love from my heart, which made for a lonely path. Yet I still carry that burning torch of spirit which I cannot extinguish even in my dark dark days after leaving the Sea Org I held my wrist in a candle for awhile. Ann watch those OTTRs! Left a grand scar! Love you always, Ann
Oracle and Roger – I’m new to blogging and not sure where this post will end up, but here it is.
Roger, I like your analysis. Quiet and peaceful satisfaction is valuable. Chasing “OT Powers” through scn is not.
Oracle, You made a cryptic (to me) reference to that on Marty’s Middle Path post. Quote “The analytical mind is a Mfker. Most people can not rise above that to finish high school.” I put that in the “figure it out later” file. lol
Engrams, reactive mind etc. is Hubbard’s mental construct and giving it too much credence IMO throws one back into scio-think. (I better erase that bad boy or I’ll stay screwed up.) Perhaps using the construct as a reference or comparative point is ok.
Anyhow, as baby boomers age there is a lot of talk about keeping our minds active like learning a new language and so on. Duplicating and understanding Oracle-Think is fun. smiles
Oracle, all mankind is in this condition.
Logical fallacy isn’t terra incognita for scientology what with its extravagant use of the ad hominem method for pointing out the inaccuracies of its critics. “Dead agenting” it’s called. Now it’s using the “false cause” fallacy to get across its side of the story. For instance, Marc Headley is to blame for the illegal actions of a man who read his book. That’s pretty good, huh? That’s like a newspaper reporter taking the heat for a crime committed by a man who reacted to an article the reporter wrote. He shouldn’t have written about it! Scientologists don’t see it, they’re drunk on KA, but the church’s tech for targeting the correct source is to shoot the messenger.
Blame Canada
(Check out South Park’s skit on this on youtube if you never seen it.)
I KNOW!
🙂
what about all the scientologists who have committed illegal acts in the name of LRH and DM? it’s such a specious argument, it makes my head spin. even if (and I know this is actually not the case) LRH & DM never told their followers or people they hired to commit illegal acts of harassment, wiretapping, trespassing, theft and animal murder, (they absolutely did) the statement that “source” is the cause negates the claim. for the COS to blame Marc Headley for this bomb threat means that by logic, any and all illegal acts attributed to church members should then be placed squarely at the feet of LRH and DM. (I know, I know, logic and COS are mutually exclusive!)
there absolutely ARE cases where one can blame the speaker/writer/creator of rhetoric for the actions taken thereafter – such as in the case of the man who shot up the planned parenthood in Colorado, but that was based on lies and false statements designed to spur that kind of response. hate speech and propaganda are made to create a response equal to the hatred being spewed, and usually the speakers are those who value the opinion of the public too much to act, but are hoping that some crazy person will grab the ball and run with it. Marc Headley is NOT such a person. he told his story with a minimum amount of hyperbole, which is the polar opposite of anything put out by “Karin Pouw” or any COS missive.
This crap makes my blood boil, bc I do think that this likely is some “deep OSA” action to deflect attention from Going Clear and to portray the COS as victims, hoping to generate the “what’s the fuss?” backlash that Tony Ortega has been warning about on his blog. if there really was a threat, there should be police reports available for viewing, right?
Wacko logic – that’s the Cof$ for you, even their lies are poorly structured and boring. They are making one of the worst errors you can make when making enemies – being predictable. Even their vast money piles are become less valuable to them as time goes on. The media while slow initially, now is picking up the ball and becoming less afraid of the litigious assholes.
As far as things like the Data series and the reverse logic by finding out what makes something illogical in my opinion is useless at a group level. I’ve never seen it applied within that group or them applying it to anyone or anything. It rates up there with applicable and workable policy, there isn’t any that provably works at an organisational level. So the ability of them to correctly target something is like taking a knife to gun fight. Their answers to things are totally random or are from one source only, miscavige.
Individually is another matter entirely, but that’s not what is at issue with the Cof$, they don’t allow individualisation and actively discourage any form of self-determinism.
My observation of the scientologist is that they only know what is required at a group level (flow to the group), and that is solely based on the fact that they need orders from above for their very existence as a scientologist. Grab any one of them if you could and ask, ” and how is scientology working out for you at home?” and look at them expectantly. I suspect none of them apply it outside of group direction and (especially) then they become the biggest squirrels by ignoring their own policy.
Yep, scientologists are a walking breathing contradiction and what makes it worse, they even wrong target themselves – per their own definitions they aren’t even scientologists!
Nothing logical or sane can come from corporate scientology, it’s impossible!
Ok, based on the logic of this whacked out clam, we need to ban the bible and the Koran for starters. Those two books have caused more crazy wars and deaths than any other books in existence. Scinetology and its adherents have truly descended in to the depth of paranoia and delusion.
Amen, BK! Just look at all the “religions” that say, just like scientology, we are the one true church or faith. And ONLY through them will people find the “Truth.” And yes, more people have been killed in the name of religion than any other reason…
Are you wavering from your resolute belief in Taco Tuesday?
NO! I’m still a deacon in the Church of Taco Tuesday! In California, this one of the most popular Churches there is! All hail the Taco & pass the hot sauce!
GTBO, it’s because they’re ALL psychotic.
OSD nicely stated and I couldn’t agree more.
Hopefully this is the year of the big party to celebrate the end of RCo$. I will fly out to join you all.
I expect that of you! Although my wife and I have thrown some raggers in our backyard, we haven’t done so in many years. Age is catching up with us. HOWEVER, when their end is in sight, my backyard will be party central! And, it’ll be potluck. Hey! I’m flippin’ Scottish! I’m a cheap bastard. You won’t have to worry about the potluck. You will get lucky as I have plenty of pot…for those who wish to partake.
Law enforcement officials identified Marc Headley’s book as the sole cause inflaming this individual to post this highly dangerous threat to life. Obviously Mr. Headley has been sneaking around doing his OT levels. We think he might be OT15. We now live in fear of Mr. Headley! Our OT8s are all in hiding and refuse to say where they are. Mr. Headley is now so powerful, he can exteriorize, go to Int and make our great leader spill his Scotch. Our great leader is so fearful of this man, that he’s going to live in one of underground bunkers where our great & wonder founder’s words are on titainium plates. He says he’s not leaving until our founder comes for him & takes him to Target 2 where he plans to reach OT15 so he can combat this evil man, Marc Headley. We are closing all of our churches until our great leader returns. In the meantime we still need everyone to donate to the IAS as they are our only hope against this monster!
This just in! Marc Headley is believed to have extorized and is at Target Two. Both our founder and leader are said to be shitting in their pants. Our beloved founder is a abandanding Target Two for Target Three, saying, I admit it! I admit it! I made it all up! It’s all hogwash! There was no research! I just did it for the money! I’ll give all the money back! Just, PLEASE, don’t tell Headley where I am! He’s just too powerful!
Fortunately, ‘crazy like a fox’ is FAR superior to ‘crazy to the core’.
I’ve been both, TFB! I perfer the fox model.
Hi OSD, What a brilliant post for today, so agree and thank you. I got Marc Headley’s book and have it as one of my go -to books by warriors who escaped. I hope many more copies are sold and I must say the lies that dm and company spit out do not seem like the flame throwers of yesteryear.Their lies are getting older and feebler by the nano second! Finally what you posted on The Sea Org goes back the same for your posts as staff ( was it a Class 5 Org? Senior moment!) Anyway I love reading posts about what it was and is like for staff the few that are left,at the orgs. I never was sent on a mission to an org neither were any at Asho F I know of except FOLO and cleaning The Children’s Org,shudder.So I was isolated almost at the top of the magic mountain,Flag being the pinnacle in my day. I did not interact much with lower org staff so reading your experiences is so illuminating for me.Love, Ann
Thanks, Ann B!
The overriding logic of the Church of Scientology is TO SURVIVE as the Church of Scientology. All other logic can go to hell.
Dave,
Have you been holding secret meetings with Sean Penn in your bunker to tell your side of the story and your world view? Possibly hire him as your new cult spokesperson?
Scientologists twist themselves into pretzels to follow the illogical propositions of Hubbard and Miscavige. It is easy to see how spending time in that environment will cause people to think what is down is up, what is good is bad, etc. It’s like opposite world.
Bizarro World Lori.
Scientology teaches and Scientologists develop the “illusion of control.”
That and the illusion of exteriorzation, super powers, incredibly high IQs and world domination, just to name a few.
Hi Chris Thompson, Thank you for ” the illusion of control…” Ain’ t that the Truth taken to extreme valences within the old GO/now OSA. Love, Ann
Mike – take another look at the words used in the second hypothetical…you have a final conclusion drawn from a completely different initial example, which makes the text seem confusing.
But that aside, I agree with your major premise…with one exception and that is this:
The first impression I had when I read about the someone who made “threats” against Miscavige was…no one made real threats against Miscavige…this is a set-up by church operatives designed to gain sympathy for Scientology.
My guess is that with enough string pulling it will become clear that this “event” has been orchestrated or at minimum, greatly twisted and exaggerated.
Or it may be a case of someone actually being stupid.
The point (if I understand it) of sending a death threat to anyone is to call attention to one’s self.
Of course I may be wrong on this.
Proof positive that the mind operates just fine with common sense and logic — once Hubbard’s ‘held down 7s’ are removed.
I have a feeling that whatever “correct source” is never scientology, its founder or leadership when the “action” is problematic, and tends to be whenever it is perceived as beneficial.
The problem with this so-called “logical” process is that things are rarely that simple in real life. Most of the time, things happen because of a confluence of factors, some of which we have little control on – like someone else’s erratic thought processes, which might have been set off by anything. Hubbard had a reductionist, machine – like view of life and people, and it shows in things like this.
Someday, someone will dig up the ‘spreadsheet’, and its real source(s), used to compile the Data Series.
You know, Mike, I’m just so very grateful for you your blog & all who post here. Since I was never SO, the posters who have, have enlightened me no end. Posters with family still in allows me to feel and understand their pain. And communicating all the various points of view has taught me so very much. It seems to me that we are a family here united in exposing this vicious,toxic & evil cult. And what a wonderful family it is. Thank you Mike & all the posters for your comments. Truly, a day without reading Mike’s blog, is a day without sunshine!
Hear, hear!
Hear what? I am so totally out of the loop! And do I get to hear it twice?
OSD, that was soooo saaaweet! I know I’m feeling comfortable here and the reading is very interesting. 😉
Hi Pat Wog Winner, Me too! I have felt so comfortable here and love reading all. Learning, laughing, loving we all are so shining and amazing to have gotten out. OSD is such a star along with all I post with. And next vacation is for Mike, Christie and their beautiful family who put up with me! Laughter! Love, Ann.
Hi Ann, I don’t think they “put up with you,” LOL, everyone here loves your spot on, uplifting comments. You’re too saaaweet and kind. And I do hope Mike and family get that vacation! 😉
Hi Pat Wog Winner, ? Thank you from my heart! I want to be sweet and kind always. Love your posts too! Ann.
Thank you for liking anything I write! LOL … See, you are soo saaaweet, Lady! 😉
Another great post, Mike. Very interesting. I hope the sales of Marc’s book scream to new heights!
As twisted as the Marc Headley scenario IS, I see the LAPD/LASO falling in line with Co$, too close to and maybe part of the problem.
Co$ and COB looking more like Kim Il sick and his lonely empire…
Yep. Police authorities all over the country have picked up the cry that there is a “war on police” because of citizens filming and posting examples of violent, abusive incidents in which police have shot or beaten and killed unarmed people, when actual stats are that 2015 was the second safest year for police nationwide in our history. It never occurs to them that they cause their own bad publicity. The overall mentality of the police and the CoS are very similar to my eyes.
This may apply too.
A staff member gets upset due to lack of sleep and food; his upset caused the loss of a statistic.
Per the scriptures the source would be his reactive mind and, due to lack of sleep and food, his reaction (key in) occurred.
But for the RTC execs, including Miscavige, the source would be Missed Withholds and Overts as it affected their stat, forget about the reactive mind,
Thus, the scriptures get used or applied depending on who benefits from it.
Wrong source, isn’t it?
I think the general rule is:
If the effect is good – Scientology caused it.
If the effect is bad – You did it.
Yep! That certainly sums it up! What a freakin’ trap that is!
“Law enforcement officials identified Marc Headley’s book as the sole cause inflaming this individual to post this highly dangerous threat to life.”
No law enforcement official would make a statement like this, that one sentence shows the lie.
I’m sure Headley’s sales will increase, and a few more scientologists will sneak out the back door.
Some corrections for Mike; please delete after considering.
In the second hypothetical:
A man sexually abuses his stepchildren children.
This should probably just be “stepchildren”
Who is “cause” of this action — The man who beat his wife?
This should refer to abuse of children, not beating of wife.
Thanks Steve. Fixed. Teach me to edit before coffee.
And after coffee too!
Yeah, you saw that too. Good catch!
Mike is out of PT. He is having a difficult time. Made a great error leaving the C of S. Should have disclosed his committed overts and crimes and stayed in only to correct the out points. He panicked and blew. So bad were his overts that he left his family behind. What father would do that?
Mike natters enormously about DM. What does that tell you? What does the auditor do next if their p/c is nattering? Same applies here.
Mikes makes a lot of blunders when giving analogies and sharing concepts.
Needs to be brought into PT.
Guy Vogel
Just word clear this tiny web page. It will tell you all you need to know.
https://whyweprotest.wikia.org/wiki/Former_Church_of_Scientology_members_who_have_spoken_out
scientology can never ever be wrong. Even when their lies are proved to be lies. The person proving the lie is a bigot.
Newsflash!…… the biggest bigots on this planet are scientologists, led by the biggest (smallest in stature) of them all.
Everything they do goes under the heading of “wrong target”.
DLHDM loves to go on wbout the elephant in the room….. try liwering the mirror and taking a real long look into it The answer is right in front of you. Here comes the awards season. Tick tock
The Oscars will be another huge take down for He who is already down. The phone call coming in from the third biggest being to the second should be fun to listen to. I hope RB has his recording devices in place as the Chair Man of the Bored explains the Impossible Mission to His Ass set.
Yo Dave,
Why not start drafting your response now? A big being like yourself can surly predict the outcome, what with all of your ecclesiastical prowess and Ohh Tees like Big Bob to consult with. Give it a go good buddy! If you don’t do anything else you ought to at least reg em for a few million to help fight suppression and all.
Dave,
El Nino and the San Andreas Fault Zone are helping your paranoia to pull in counter survival mud (and shit) flows.
So far in media, the source of claim that it was Marc Headley’s book isn’t from law enforcement officials or the nutjob, it’s from “Karen Pouw” claiming that it came from law enforcement officials who got it from the nutjob.
It’s not hard to see the weakest link in that chain.
In my early (to me) years of reading chat sites (2004-2006), when the crazy stirring violence stuff came up from commenters, or in the trolling comments on ARS (alt.religion.scientology blog)I immediately presumed this was sub sub contracting of crazies done by the PIs that OSA hires. When a “wog” crazy person is stirred up, I presume today OSA’s handiwork, and if anything, the continued agent provocateuring done by OSA, is rather a bigger responsible source behind the scenes.
When the “violence” motives was aimed at me, I asked Tom Smith to ask Kenny Shapiro if Kenny was “working for OSA” and Kenny admitted it.
FBI investigators who read this blog for leads, well here’s a tiny paper trail I lived through.
Kenny Shapiro, ex Sea Org officer, fellow RPF member when I was on the RPF, Kenny did a series of smear emails against me, and his last email to me was agent provocateuring in the violence “wrong indication” department which trained Scientologists and OSA tactics educated Scientologists, and which expert critics of Scientology have learned Scientology engages in.
Here’s some paper trail evidence in my case:
http://chuckbeatty77.webs.com/kenshapiro4.htm
I’m sure this dirty business of agent provocateuring needs a whole lot more detailed paper trailing right back to Office of Special Affairs Church of Scientology International.
Academics and journalists studying Scientology ought to know that the OSA wing of Scientology is the problem, and that wing continues to exist not due to just David Miscavige, but to L. Ron Hubbard’s writings, which FBI I hope FBI has interviewed Marty and MIke on the operative policies by Hubbard.
All time thanks to Frank Oliver for this leak:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/48399838/Frank-Oliver-Full-Hat
The solution to ending crazy person stirring up, is for groups like OSA to stop themselves doing any inch of it themselves!!!
In fact, I’m atheist, I cannot stomach Scientology today, but if people wish to do past-lives New Era Dianetics trauma relief Hubbard crank pseudo-therapy, they are free to do it, and they are free to do the Hubbard exorcism procedures of OT 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7.
But Scientology practices should dispense with their Office of Special Affairs, and all Scientologists should just do their procedures they are legally allowed to do on each other, and get on with that.
There is NO need for Scientologists to engage with dirty intel agent provocateuring.
Just do your tech on each other, stop abusing yourselves with your money grubbing, and just be open and upfront on what your procedures like past-lives New Era Dianetics you are doing, and the OT 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 exorcism of “body thetans” that you do, and just be open about it.
Stop being agent provocatuers against your “enemies.”
Scientologists are free, in most western countries, to do their past-lives pseudo-therapy and their “body thetans” exorcism, fine, that’s freedom of spiritual activity.
OSA ought be disbanded, immediately. Or gutted to just the legal protection that is legal and ethical legal activity.
Well said Chuck! I belong to the same religion as you BTW.
Coop,this is what I’ve learned from my Rasta friends in Jamaica: One love, one heart, one destiny. And, “Everything thing will be alright.”
I meant to write: “And every little thing is going to be alright.” Bob Marley
Beautiful. I concur OSD,
Ya Mon!! My wife and I love Jamaica. Have been there many times. She’s a travel agent so most of our trips are comp’d. Love the diving there. Hell, I love everything there.
Beautiful! I’m glad that’s how you really feel!!
Unless you are gay. Jamaica is not a kind place to homosexuals, so I can not ever go there.
Hi gtsix, That is just horrible re: Jamaica. Well they are the losers because they could of had gay tourists coming for relaxation as everyone should be-able to. You are a hero of mine.Love Always Ann.
What Coop, The Church of What’s Happening Now? Or, Church of the Jedi? Or, Church of the Awesome Waves?
Mavericks is getting 50 footers.
And I’ll be here. Thankfully.
I can get behind the idea that OSA would hire a crazy. I’m pretty sure that’s what happened when a crazy started pushing protesters around in East Grinstead. Ultimately, the crazy started hitting people, stole a protesting prop and ran away. He was found clutching a six-pack of beer and taken in by the police.
He got a few nights in prison for his trouble, OSA was not mentioned.
http://www.tingleff.org/jensting/duke_tour/muslinger/egrinstead9805_a.html
http://www.tingleff.org/jensting/duke_tour/images/EGrinstead9805/sthill_22_a.jpg
In Hubbard-Think, tracking down the true source of a problem is fairly simple.
1. One hears about a non-optimum situation.
2. Think of all the things or people you loathe
3. Draw a line of plausible if twisted logic linking that person to the problem.
4. Blame the person loudly
5. Make it an ethics offense to disagree.
6. Celebrate your brilliance and make it an ethics offense to disagree with anything you’ve said.
Hip hip
Standard Tech, simplified.
Ah yes one would be inclined to believe the tech is so spot on that anywhere the cult went things would improve. But why then has Clearwater made the list of saddest cities in the US? http://travel.alot.com/themes/20-saddest-cities-in-the-us–8906?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=FB_8906&camp_id=12005
‘… a greater than average usage of antidepressants’!
I guess this is going to be david miscavige’s new strategy for the “pain” he has been experiencing. Although, there’s not that much “new” about it. This is the strategy he uses with his parishioners – “Don’t read entheta.” Translation to the public at large: “Don’t read anything bad about the church of scientology or david miscavige because it makes people do bad things.” The underlying message is the same: It’s all lies; don’t believe it.
Sorry, dave, this won’t work with sentient human beings that have two brain cells to rub together.
Seriously, Mary??? it really is all lies??? Well…I guess I better cancel my re-re-re-redo purif then. (Big sigh!). I feel lost now….
You just need to spot the correct WHO, OSD. If you can’t Blame Canada, maybe it’s Jodie Foster.
Spot the correct WHO? You mean to tell me the right WHO is not a person, but an OWL? That must be one smart OWL. WHO knew!
It sounds to me like SOMEBODY here may need to do the Data Series Evaluator Course. 🙂
LRH Wrote in 1983:
“Truth must exist before lies and truth blows the lie away as it is later on the chain. And any suppressive person or group seeking to dissuade you or invalidate you deals only in lies. The lies are quite easily spotted if you know the Data Series. Most people get so confused by all the lies around they come to believe anything they’re told and that’s the reason the suppressive lies. But with the Data Series one can spot bad data so easily it is itself a sort of relief to know it.”
I guess that would sum it up because only a confused person acting on false information “regardless of where the false information was acquired from” would come to a conclusion like that or make such a rash decision. I don’t think the Church of Scientology as a whole approves of anyone as a parishioner that is more responsible (KRC) than they themselves falsely believe they are because it puts them out of business.
Well I would like to thank all the high ARC and KRC people in the world for just being themselves.
Lawrence, thank you for giving me an opportunity to contradict Mr. Hubbard. The truth cancels out a lie not because it is prior on a “time chain” but because it makes more sense than the lie. The truth makes more SENSE than a lie. Otherwise we would scrap the truth and go with the lie no matter where it stood on a time chain. I recall Hubbard saying something similar to, ‘it doesn’t matter if it’s true so long as it yields the desired results.’ I’d think twice before hitching my wagon to a “Data Series” written by such a man.
And the good news is — there are no scientology orgs in Vermont, New Hampshire or Maine …
Leading me to believe that the motto “Live Free or Die” (NH IS the cause. Bernie Sanders is the who and Maine is just too pretty to mess with, with miles and miles of coast line and lots and lots of famous people who hang out there (think Bush family)
Always thought the data series was in-frigging-comprehensible — and a great way to drive the able into being the disabled
Thanks Mike.
Sorry Marc — you are just not cause on this 🙂
My guess is the person who went nutso has some serious PTSD … just sayin’ and a car back firing would trigger him
Windhorse
Hmm. There is a recent story about threats is the phone threats from someone who sounds more than a little off his rocker, as referenced in the Underground Bunker, http://tonyortega.org/2016/01/06/scientology-becoming-a-ghost-town-illinois-man-arrested-for-threatening-miscavige/#more-27757
the story at http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-death-threats-david-miscavige-scientology-20160105-story.html
Nothing about “sailor” or Marc Headley’s book, tho’
But Captain David “he is nOT insane!” Miscavige invoking fear for his life because of perceived (and more or less real) threats is, of course, nothing new…
I am a recipient of letters like this. They absolutely know they cannot impinge on me. So why send to people like me? I believe it is simple harassment and it shows their insanity and evil ways. Fail!
They send you stuff because you are one of their stats! Promo sent out! If you told them to stop sending you stuff, there’s a good chance the cult would calapse. You don’t want that on your conscience do you?
These hushmail’s will not listen to me. I tried. Altho I can turn them in if they continue. I’m keeping track, thanks.
+1 deE.
As always, the Scientology view of the world is over-simplified. Cause and Effect in the real world is far more complex. While they consider their philosophic simplification to be a “powerful” advantage, in actual application it is a liability.
The church and OSA is not beyond staging events for some perceived gain; at the very least, taking advantage of a situation to their benefit. Anything for the almighty “church”. Many parishioners may not even object to such an activity, anything to stem the tide of the “lies”.
Hubbard’s sophomoric system of logic is really only meant to serve one thing – the church. “Greatest good for greatest number of dynamics” sounds “logical” and appealing, but in actual practice Scnists are only allowed to apply this provided it is beneficial to the church.
Hypothetical…
Public Scnist discovers the church has broken the law. He’s “hung-up” at Doubt. Do I notify the police? He will spend enough time with the MAA who will get him to “see” all the good the church does across all the dynamics and it it should be helped, not attacked. In the end he will write a couple of Knowledge Reports and feel good knowing he has taken “responsibility” and not report it to the police. He will never realize that the goal of the MAA was always to silence him and avert a disaster.
Hi statpush, Thank you for your post which did resonate for me. So true all you posted.Love, Ann
Anything for the almighty “church”…..Yup. If it’s good for the cult, it is a GOOD action for “the dynamics” even if it’s bad for YOU. The Scientology cult makes it a crime to act on your best interests if it’s not unconditionally good for the cult. I recall many of the High Crime Suppressive Acts fell into a similar pattern. Voice enough disagreements that eventually get written in your PC or ethics folder and you might not get overrun on NED after all unless you buy enough “Basic” book sets.
According to $cientology and it’s leader, David Miscavige, if anyone were to read the $cientology vitriol on psychiatry and go shoot his psychiatrist, it would be David Miscavige’s and $cientology’s fault.
If anyone were to read the savage attacks on Marc published by David Miscavige and do harm to Marc, it would be David’s fault.
$cientology’s FIRST POLICY, as written by L Ron Hubbard is “Maintain friendly relations with the environment and the public.” Judging by the vitriol spewed by David Miscavige in his responses to any and all criticism of himself, David Miscavige chooses the other writing of L Ron Hubbard-“…ruin him utterly.”
What would happen if one were to weed out every single policy that violates what Hubbard said was “FIRST POLICY?” Of course, David Miscavige would label you a CICS, SP, theetie weetie squirrel. He might even give you your own personal hate website that would invite others to harm you.
Marc Headly told the truth in his book. He disseminated vital information.
David Miscavige lies in his publications. He foments hatred.
“What would happen if one were to weed out every single policy that violates what Hubbard said was “FIRST POLICY?” …….. or weed out any policy written by Hubbard that violated or contradicted the Logics, Pre-logics and Axioms to the detriment to Scientology, Scientologists or non Scientologists.
Good idea Doug. That is what we each must do. Then there can be an end of it. In the words of Hayakawa (1951), ” . . . When separating the wheat from the chaff, there is no wheat.”
Or perhaps as Marty posted, in his opinion, it is virtually impossible to separate the two, they are so commingled. (Like his finances were! 🙂 )
Scientology Staff pretty much create disasters,flaps,attacks, collapses,
deaths,suicides,bankruptcies, sex crimes, and so on and to the bubble dwellers
it’s all caused by unrelated and remote sources who when they discover this are
amazed and very surprised even amused.
yah Peter, you have to go to source, what influenced LRH. And separate out the two.
As LRH says, go to source writing, (and not what the new source says).