Everyone who has watched The Aftermath knows that scientology invariably sends in rather bizarre denials to what is being exposed in every episode. The finale was no exception. In fact, scientology outdid themselves.
We have made the point repeatedly, that while scientology squeals they are being vilified and lied about, they NEVER provide ANYONE to present their side of the story. Instead they just repeat, in long-winded letters, that every single person who appears on the show is a liar. Scientology has never done ANYTHING wrong according to these letters. The pain and suffering that is testified to by their victims is all hallucinatory, or more likely deliberately false because a. the person wants fame, or b. they want money or c. they are suppressive people out to destroy anything good in the world.
None of these alleged motivations fit any of the people who appear on the show. And they appear knowing they will be Fair Gamed by scientology with absolutely false and often gutter-level smears. They’re certainly not making money out of it.
The finale scientolog responses were magnificently brazen bs. Their carefully (but weirdly) worded legal responses set a new low. And that is saying something.
Let’s take a look at a few of them:
Well, if they are not required by law to report (which in most jurisdictions is the case) they DO NOT do so. Does this prove they DO report things to law enforcement? NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST. This is scientology sleaze 101. Proclamations that sound grand and important but are in fact meaningless other than to (falsely) claim they have not committed a crime — while avoiding the real issue. And the real issue is that scientology does NOT report crime, and their response is not “yes we do” but “we do what the law requires us to do – which is not report.”
Translation “We are not responding to the specific facts that have been stated, we claim the specific incidents are merely “implications” because we CANNOT respond to any specifics.”
And “We have spent decades “partnering” with the police in LA and around the world, pursuant to the policy of L. Ron Hubbard which dictates that we make “safe points” out of these people.” The “implication” is they are in scientology’s pocket.
Be certain of this: “Cooperation” with law enforcement ceases immediately and at once if the cooperation might lead to evidence that would implicate scientology in a crime. Just see what happens if the LAPD were to show up at Celebrity Center asking to interview the witnesses named by the Masterson victims. They would be shown the door in a split second. If they persisted and returned with a court order, they would be told the people are “no longer here.” Scientology cooperation with law enforcement only happens when the outcome is good for scientology.
It’s right in L. Ron Hubbard’s policy.
Without doubt, this is the “there is no such thing as disconnection” moment of the evening.
For anyone who has ever been a scientologist they KNOW this is not true.
Hey, David Miscavige HIMSELF boasts that he was a Class IV auditor at age 12. To be a Class IV he had to deliver Grade II. Grade II INCLUDES the Joburg Sec Check — some of the questions on that sec check were shown on the screen last night.
In fact, this is the official hagiography of David Miscavige that is published on scientology.org:
Oops.
A hopeful lie.
They KNOW that nobody can reach out to the CWPD and get them to confirm or deny that an investigation is or is not complete. The party who WOULD be informed that such an investigation had been terminated would be Serge. He has not been informed of this.
Would love to ask the CWPD how much cooperation they are getting from scientology on their investigation. Moreor even less than for the Lisa McPherson case where witnesses and evidence was disappeared…
And I well recall when scientology went to great lengths to claim there was NO FBI investigation ongoing in 2009. They just said it. It was a lie. But nobody remembers the lies later.
Then when that “non-existent” investigation was closed without prosecution they suddenly changed their story. Now the “false claims” had been “thoroughly investigated” and “did not result in criminal prosecution.”
The real state of the CWPD investigation will all come out in the open in due course.
Wow — this one might surpass the minors don’t audit adults brazen lie with its sheer audacity.
We have been shouting from the rooftops since the start of this show “Where is law enforcement? Why are they not doing their jobs?”
Scientology has taken that and twisted into some sort of vindication — “See, law enforcement has never accused us of of failing to fulfill our legal obligations with respect to children” so that means we are entirely innocent.
No, it means law enforcement has been entirely delinquent.
But, if the “accusations” of law enforcement are the standard scientology wants to go by, then here are a few.
First, some excerpts from the summary of investigation by the FBI in 2009:
Of course, scientology says these findings are meaningless because there was no prosecution. They want to have retired cake and eat it too. And anyone who has ever been involved in criminal matters knows that many reasons exist for failure to prosecute that have nothing to do with whether a crime was committed.
So, let’s review some “accusations” from the US Department of Justice in a case where prosecution WAS brought, and 11 senior scientology officials went to federal prison.
These quotes are from the Sentencing Memorandum in US v. Mary Sue Hubbard et al:
… the pervasive conduct of the defendants in this case in thwarting a federal Grand Jury investigation by harboring a fugitive, in effect forcefully kidnapping a witness who had decided to surrender to the federal authorities, submitting false evidence to the Grand Jury, destroying other evidence which might have been of valuable aid to its investigation, preparing a cover-up story, and encouraging and drilling a crucial witness to give false testimony under oath to that Grand Jury.
… the defendants and their unindicted co-conspirators, as well as their organizations, considered themselves above the law. They believed that they had carte blanche to violate the rights of others, frame critics in order to destroy them, burglarize private and public offices and steal documents outlining the strategy of individuals and organizations that the Church had sued.
The defendants and their cohorts launched vicious smear campaigns, spreading falsehoods against those they perceived to be enemies of Scientology in order to discredit them and, in some instances, cause them to lose their employment.
Their total disregard for the laws is further made clear by the criminal campaigns of vilification, burglaries and thefts which they carried out against private and public individuals and organizations and carefully documented in minute detail.
…these defendants were willing to frame their critics to the point of giving false testimony under oath against them, and having them arrested and indicted speaks legion for their disdain for the rule of law. Indeed, they arrogantly placed themselves above the law meting out their personal brand of punishment to those “guilty” of opposing their selfish aims.
The crimes committed by these defendants is of a breadth and scope previously unheard of. No building, office, desk, or file was safe from their snooping and prying.’ No individual or organization was free from their despicable conspiratorial minds. The tools of their trade were miniature transmitters, lock picks, secret codes, ‘ forged credentials, and any other device they found necessary to carry out their conspiratorial schemes.
L. Ron Hubbard wrote in his dictionary entitled “Modern Management Technology Defined” that “truth is what is true for you.” Thus, with the founder’s blessings they could wantonly commit perjury as long as it was in the interest of Scientology. The defendants rewarded criminal activities that ended in success and sternly rebuked those that failed. The standards of human conduct embodied in such practices represent no less than the absolute perversion of any known ethical value system. In view of this, it defies the imagination that these defendants have the unmitigated audacity to seek to defend their actions in the name of “religion,” That these defendants now attempt to hide behind the sacred principles of freedom of religion, freedom of speech and the right to privacy — which principles they repeatedly demonstrated a willingness to violate with impunity — adds insult to the injuries which they have inflicted on every element of society.
Are those accusations good enough?
They are very predictable at this point. It’s a good thing though – means they have no credibility. They’re like the kid who protests indignantly that he did NOT steal the chocolate, while he has it round his mouth.
Rolling my eyes at the “no minors audit adults” on matters of graphic sexual nature statement. I suppose they do have a certain amount of wiggle room on that, in the sense that it depends on what they consider to be graphic. I also note that they are not claiming that minor students never audit adults, just that Serge Gil didn’t. Carefully worded indeed.
I wonder how many documents the Church will have destroyed or squirrelled (ho ho) away, by the time any enforcement agency (police, FBI, IRS etc) decides to get off its bum? Maybe that’s what they have the kids doing these days – shredding paperwork.
It’s what the Fundamentalist Mormon church (FLDS) did when police eventually stormed their secured compound and broke open the temple with a battering ram – tried to shred as much paper as possible. It took a fair while for anything to be done about them as well, even though it was known that minor girls were being forcibly married to adults, children were not in school and were forced into manual labour.
The way the FLDS operated/operates was very like Scientology, by the way. The leader is a narcissistic, abusive nutcase and the Church also controlled the law encorcement in the area, using the local police as their security guards to try to prevent anyone from escaping. I belive the local council was also fully stocked with FLDS members – their version of Clearwater. Took a long time to get the leader in prison and he still runs the cult from his prison cell, having introduced even more disgusting and bizarre rules than the already-crazy system that existed. I mention that because Scientology could still carry on even with DM in jail. Oh, and the leader of the FLDS was rolling in money, because that was a big part of it for him – financial benefit, including money from the taxpayer.
I think part of why not enough is being done is that the Church of Scientology probably has agents in helpful places. That’s certainly what I would do if I was LRH or Miscavige. They’ll have learned from mistakes of the past (in terms of their agent in the IRS being caught) and could be more careful with it. It’s been a long time since Operation Snow White. If they were able to get agents in the police forces, the Government, the FBI and the IRS, they could be quite highly-placed if they got them there in the 80s. You had a former PI for the Church on the show with Leah Remini – I think she said she’d been recruited out of school? Get people like that into good positions and have them fly under the radar. It could be doable.
Mike made a comment in the show that the C of S was the only organization in the history of the world that has never done anything wrong, or words to that effect. He made a great point. The C of S cannot admit to ever being wrong or having made a mistake. To me, his stating that dead agents their denials. Everyone makes mistakes. Owning up to at least one or two would give your denials of others at least some possible credibility. That infallibility at the top and the desire to protect its image can keep a wrong course of action from ever being corrected. Eventually society sanctions you (Catholic Church) and your power and influence is diminished as your dragged through the mud of poor public opinion.
I (and probably everyone else) get so tired of Scamologies excuses they respond with. Always the victim… they do NOTHING wrong…. everyone is liers… blah blah blah … they should know by now that those comments don’t hold water anymore … they should be worried… very worried… your on thin ice Captain Miscavage and their fireing up the blowtorch.
Really don’t know where this originated but it sure applies to what the cult’s victims should tell the cult. “Don’t piss on my leg (or boot, whatever) and tell me it’s raining.”
I watched the last episode last night, I’ve been hooked on the whole series, mainly because I don’t understand the mindset of adults who allow themselves to be so controlled. It’s complete bizarre to me (but then again I am an atheist ). However, what I do want to say is a HUGE thank you to everyone involved in opening up this filth to the light – but constantly opening it up, validating people/children’s experiences and pushing to indict these perpetrators, hopefully in our lifetime we shall see an end to Scientology as well as other cults and control religions and organisations. To the survivors that have been brave enough to come forward, kudos to you – you are all heroes.
Michele,
I’m not an atheist and yet I strongly relate to your puzzlement about why adults would want to be so controlled. Looking from the viewpoint of such people might help in understanding them. There are “advantages” to being controlled. I put this in quotes because they wouldn’t be advantages to me or you or many people, but to a number of others who enjoy living their lives as controlled beings. I would list them as follows and this is all off the top of my head and I’m not a shrink or anything 🙂
1) No necessity for one to make decisions, be they large, small or in between.
2) A strong feeling of certainty that one is always “doing what’s right” by following a chosen path that has guidelines, rules and orders for every aspect of life.
3) No need to take responsibility for one’s happiness or misfortunes apart from explaining such as one’s adherence, neglect or ignorance of the chosen path.
4) No need to take responsibility for the happiness or misfortunes of others apart from explaining such in accordance with their adherence, neglect or ignorance of the chosen path.
5) No need to THINK. They always KNOW what to do.
6) Friends. Being part of a GROUP. Like minded individuals who bond because they all think the same, behave the same, etc., etc.
See?
When you give up control of your life, life gets REALLY simple, and that’s what people like this WANT. They can’t deal with complexity. This bears repeating: they CANNOT DEAL with ANY kind of complexity. They need and want to live VERY simple lives, and in exchange they cede control of their lives to another person or group.
The above is just my theory based on what I’ve observed with a certain type of people, some of whom are my relatives, btw, but I’ve met many people like this.
The point is, if you look from THEIR viewpoint – not mine, not yours, but THEIRS – you’ll see that there are “rewards” for being utterly and completely controlled. And there are probably more “benefits” to such people than I’ve just listed off the top of my head.
That’s like saying if a woman moans or releases fluids (“gets wet”) while being raped she is getting something positive from the experience or is enjoying it. That is SICK THINKING.
Should the drugged & unconscious women sodomized, torn & left bleeding anally by Danny Masterson thank him for giving them physical attention? Even if they all wanted to “give up control”, is his raping of them acceptable? No, it’s deplorable, criminal & in Masterson’s case, the actions of a Serial Rapist, protected & supported by scientology.
Hi Ganapathy Das,
FYI, none of what I wrote was a defense of those who cede control of their lives to others or to a religion, cult or other group.
I was not defending them.
What I was doing was looking from THEIR viewpoint.
They cede control because they BELIEVE it benefits THEM.
I don’t agree at all.
I’m just looking from THEIR viewpoint – not mine.
Thanks for responding and sorry you got upset.
Hope this helps 🙂
Aquamarine – that is a very good summary!
I’m always interested to try to parse the weasel-wording of Scientology’s PR and propaganda, partly because I think it reveals that staff at the lower levels in particular still have some of the normal human discomfort with blatantly lying to others, and try to hide it in word games instead – much like Hubbard himself did with re-definition and mis-direction.
However, these just look to me like the words of attorneys who are willing to take any position on behalf of their clients, and say anything including denying facts that are patently obvious, such as when they are defending those literally caught holding smoking guns standing over corpses. The only thing interesting about it, is that it reveals that Scientology lacks any of the sort of humility and compassion that we normally associate with religion, and instead acts like a psychopath or an adversarial corporation.
Scientology is only “preaching to the (ever dwindling) choir” at this stage of the game. Nobody believes their lies anymore.
When someone tells a lie they will eventually be caught.
Cults like $cientology and Jehovah Witless who make it difficult to stop and prosecute illegal behavior become a protected haven for pedophile’s and rapists. With no real consequences they can seduce or take advantage of children and women with abandon. Something I don’t think LRH anticipated or if he did planned to take advantage of being a deviant himself. Laws need to change to reflect this as an absolute felony that even religions or fake religions aka cults are not exempt from.
Exactly. Predators will always find a way to get to the children and women. We have plenty of current examples of this. Find a closed environment and community where they go around the established laws and ethics. Perfect way to hide their predilections and get away with crimes.
Foolproof has done flown the coop. Hallelujah!
Are you sure?
That’s what he announced – now he has to be consistent to save face. Hope you’re not feeling the loss. 😉
Awwww poor little FP, someone please call a waaahmbulance for him!
I hope I’m not parroting too many others on the posts- I haven’t had the chance to read them all yet. The language that the cult uses is always vague and couched in such a way that it SOUNDS like a vehement denial of wrongdoing….at first. When you look at it again, you realize it is exactly as Mike said- cleverly worded denial or lies that are meant to obfuscate the real issue. Claiming a case is closed when knowing full well no one but the person who reported it is privy to the disposition, is a sly and oily way to try to wiggle free of allegations.
They are disgusting and horrid people. I am still awed that the very thing that Hubbard yearned for (celebrity) May be what ultimately brings them down. If it can be proven that the cult actively participated in obstruction of justice, a criminal case will be opened- it’s the crack that is needed to bring them all down. Miscavige will fight to the bitter end and will throw everyone available under the bus in a heartbeat. However, how loyal are ALL of his close “aides”? If they depose Shelly, what secrets will she spill? Will the people who have been abused stay silent when they see a very real chance at freedom? I doubt everyone will remain silent. He doesn’t hold the same power over people as Hubbard did. Hubbard could inspire someone to fall on their sword. I dont think DM holds the same amount of blind loyalty as LRH did. It will be interesting to see what happens, especially if they decide to sacrifice Masterson.
Scientology lied. WHAT a novel headline…. Nothing new here, people. Just move along.
AND remember, FOOLproof’s lying denial of ever seeing a minor in a major course Academy will be touted by scn as yet another example of some allegation which has been “disproven” many times. Never mind that scn has documented that DM was such a minor “qualified” to do Jo’burgs
(By at least age 12.)
As usual my straightforward comment has been extrapolated on, exaggerated and vilified, yet FPjr (who is not my son – haha!) and not that friendly towards me, has verified below the statement I made, if you would care to look at his post. That is all I said.
As the proverbial pot has been stirred, if one is so shocked/horrored at all this (the topic is young auditors asking certain questions) then perhaps it might be better to also direct one’s ire at virtually probably every Schools & Education Authority on planet Earth who teach kids of whatever age they are (I don’t know the exact age – 12 or 13?), sex education with probably quite explicit details, probably in as much if not more “detail” as what may occur in a session. And my kids when they were teenagers even, probably knew more about sex and its various ramifications than I did. Or are you all burying your heads in the sand and looking for any Achilles Heel that you think you can attack Scientology with? (Well, yes, I know you are!) And usually the only groups who object to this sex education are the conservative Christian groups, who ironically usually get shot down in flames when they post other comments on other topics here. So a bit of lateral thinking may be required here.
You are so desperate to defend scientology, Hubbard and Miscavige that you equate sex education of kids to them doing 2d sec checking to try to make it seem normal??
You are a sick puppy.
No Mike, you call me a sick puppy because I have put your little attack ploy in perspective, well, to anyone who doesn’t have some sort of ulterior motive or bias. I would imagine that teenagers discuss far worse explicit details among themselves, and even with adults such as parents or teachers, and view “naughty” films and DVDs etc. that could possibly arise in a session. And as I say, the Education Boards and Authorities have a license to discuss matters of a sexual nature do they not? Or are you suggesting that all teenagers now should be forbidden to do so or admonished if so? You seem to think that teenagers don’t know what is going on and if so, you live in some sort of fantasy land! You are blowing this up out of all proportion and no doubt the idea occurred to you recently as another possible Achilles Heel that you could sell to your morally outraged affiliates (most of whom don’t give a damn about young Sea Org people and are just viewing this as another attack angle) – as you were running out of any new ideas to maintain interest in your overall scheme.
And ultimately, it seems you are so desperate to attack Scientology but seem to forget that as the former head of the Church’s PR and security, if you NOW consider that this was wrong, why then when you were on watch so to speak, did you not intervene? And if so, I could now call you a hypocrite, could I not?
This will be my last posting here as I now have “other fish to fry”, so when Brain or Jesuit George or Terra Non-Cognito post their silly little stories, they will receive no more counter effort from my direction, and can lie, misconstrue and spew forth to their hearts’ content. Perhaps your COBber Dave will take up my suggestion and wheel in that OSA dude from Munich whom you put on post to er, put things in perspective, or reality anyway? He was very good! Could crack a good joke as well, I recall.
Adieu! I won’t say “Bon Chance!” as that would be a lie, of course.
Not sorry to see you go.
You, in your rush to defend Hubbard and Miscavige have now equated teachers with child auditors.
Show me a 12 year teacher giving sex education classes “under the license and authority of Education Boards and Authorities” and I will bow down and kiss your feet.
I KNOW you did not watch the program. You are stating that the trauma suffered by Joey Chait, Victoria Locke and Serge Gil is just imaginary. You don’t believe them because Hubbard and Miscavige say what happened to them is perfectly normal, so of course, to you, it is.
Your response to their horrendous experiences was to defend scientology who said “these claims are absurd, we don’t do things like that.” I took issue and said “yes, you do.” You picked out something to dispute about whether Grade 2 processes included a Joburg in the mid-70’s. Like that made any difference. And then you took it a step further and now try to maintain “It’s all good, we DO do that and it’s righteous and wonderful and no different than teachers do in school.”
You are correct, this is your last comment. You crossed a line in your effort to try to defend child sexual abuse. Your efforts to defend even the indefensible (to any sensible, normal person) are just too grotesque.
I truly hope you eventually find some peace of mind.
Mike – I remember explicitly receiving my Grade 2 auditing circa ’74 at the age of 18 and the JOBURG at the time was included. At that time I didn’t know what it was until later on in the ’80’s when they wanted to run it again and it was an “ethics” thing. I was like, “I already did these “processes/lists”. Anyway, although not “naive” at that age, I was horrified by the questions. Re: questions like having sex with animals? inanimate objects? incest? etc.
I remember protesting this list and asking my auditor why do I have to do this? It’s nothing like other parts of the grades I had done. It had nothing to do with anything I originated needed to get handled. The lame answer was that everybody had to do this list on Grade 2.
Anyway I don’t know what FP is referring to with his “knowledge” of the tech BUT I specifically remember the JOBURG on my Grade 2 in 1974.
It is interesting to note that EVERY ex-CoS member who still adheres even somewhat to Hubtard & scamology who has also attacked Mike here has turned out to also support pedophiles and sexual abuse of children. Either on this blog or other blogs.
I DON’T think that is a coincidence…
HOW ‘BOUT DAT?
NOW WE CAN REFER TO HIM AS: F O O L POOF
BE GONE WITH YOU I SAY…..DON’T LET THE DOOR SLAM YOU IN THE ASS ON YOUR WAY OUT……
Hallelujah! He’s gone. No more M/U nonsense. No more colossal arrogance. No more stupid nicknames for people. No more outrageous justifications of Hubbard’s cruel policies. Above all, no more insane fanaticism. Praise be to baby Xenu.
How FP can compare regular sex education to $ci kids asking vile, perverted, sexual questions to adults is just beyond comprehension.
I think you are afraid of my up and coming essay.
I think you are scared FP of questions and being seen in your Hubbard mind costume.
When you are spotted, you blow like Miraldi.
Theory about FP:
It’s possible that FP is OSA. He uses their tactics. But he is ineffective in enturbulating anyone.
Miraldi left the scene I think because everyone saw her game.
When the Scientologist game has been spotted, they hide.
There will be another mosquito OSA troll if FP doesn’t come back.
Miraldi’s handle was that she was into other philosophies and an Indy. That’s how she became accepted, in my view.
FP’s handle was that he was an Indie. He just now announced that recently. I don’t think he is an Indy because he acts like someone in the bubble.
When people leave the church, they also seem to leave the nastiness against critics and they normalize in society. They seem to get back their sense of decency in human interaction.
FP was constantly nasty. And only when Hubbard was criticized. Same with Miraldi. Although I think Miraldi was better at deception than FP.
There will be more deceptive trolls. And I think we will see them as mice and we the playful little hungry kitty.
OSA, you dare so obvious.
Maybe FP was always acting antagonistic because, as a true believer, he was helping us up the Tone Scale.
FP, your presence has been only one positive service:
Aversion therapy. You thought you were protecting and defending Hubbard, but in reality you acted as a public service for everyone.
Your expression here has simply helped us all to see how dangerous letting Hubbard into our the mind is.
Thank you for your service.
But maybe you have been sent to the hole because you have failed to enturbulate anyone.
FP would never answer any specific questions about the indie scene he claimed to be involved in, so you have to wonder. If he is an indie, OSA probably follows the few of them left closely enough to figure out which one he is between hints and writing style, so it’s not like he would be hiding from the people he really has something to fear from.
I also suspect that some of the vocal indie types, have people feeding them ideas and egging them on, who they think are friends or correspondents, but who are really working for OSA. So they may be carrying water for OSA, but imagine themselves thinking and operating independently.
FP does seem to me to represent the current strain of indie loyalist ideology and apologism seen, for instance, on Ken Urquhart’s blog. Nothing is that inconsistent with his representing what could be expected of a true believer still hanging on.
Marildi definitely hangs out on Urquhart’s blog, and seems to me to represent just a slightly different, and perhaps somewhat more typically feminine, example. They seemed genuinely desperate for a forum to discuss their beloved Hubbardian ideas – particularly as the once-active indie sites are going virtually dead – and to have a true believer’s dismay at seeing their cherished beliefs challenged and derided.
It’s yet another of those things that doesn’t put Scientology and its current state (in and out of the CofS) in a good light no matter how you look at it, that there’s almost no way to tell the difference between a cynical CofS OSA operative and one of the current crop of hangers-on outside.
Well said Peace Maker! And I have also thought that it is telling that there seems to be the same level of “protect Hubbard nastiness” in OSA and Indie – if they are Indies.
Well said, brotha!
As a side note, my lone scn FB friend responded to a post trying to equate hubbard “borrowing” concepts to that of Tony Robbins and why did he get away with it and hubbard not. When I brought up all the truly evil policies and their effect, I was told they couldn’t accept me disparaging hubbard, that I was pts and not an sp, but they were not in agreement with the way the cherch was being run now. I think this person was now an Indie and still a true believer in hubbard. I know for a fact this person, while in the sea org, personally knew and worked for hubbard in his household unit at flag before he went underground again shortly after. BTW, this person was a young, impressionable female teen at the time.
OMG….Yes!
OMG….Yes! Begone with you FP
FP is hiding from the sad reality of Scientology’s demise, as much as anything, I think. His forays here allow him to go on the attack and restate his faith publicly, a distraction from facing the state of his shrinking indie world in particular. That’s actually an example of a classic mechanism for attempting to quell the sort of cognitive dissonance that Brian’s article discussed.
I pointed out to FP yesterday, that in 1985 Mayo’s AAC announced that it had 410 people at the “largest independent event to date,” in the opening 20 seconds of this video showing a large room full of people:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHN3FuXDPsA
Nowadays, the annual Freezone Convention in Las Vegas has 2 to 3 dozen people in attendance, from what I’ve picked up; it can be verified that the conference room they meet in according to their published agenda, only seats 40.
That’s something like 90% shrinkage. Plus the indies’ often amateurish and mostly now-derelict and websites are an embarrassment, and demonstrate that only a small number of people are actively involved.
If FP isn’t here, I don’t know what he has to go back to, except for some indie discussion circles that are probably getting small and tiresome – and likely wrapped up in the sort of accusations and recriminations that the indie world seems rife with and riven by, like who’s been “declared” by whom. I asked him what it is like, and just how big it is, but of course he would never answer directly.
How anyone in their right mind can use the argument that a child receiving formal sex education in a school environment equates to the same child privately and invasively interrogating an adult as to his or her intimate sexual experiences probably says more about this person’s true psychological disposition than most of his previous utterances.
Perhaps we should have enquired after his crimes before he bade farewell (maybe it’s true in his case). Nevermind. Good riddance.
Foolproof , when I was a young and naive girl , I found out that some men or at least the one I was auditing , have sex with animals.
Don’t think that is part of sex education in schools.
I have to agree with you Marie. That someone would compare sex education in schools to children auditing adults, and that adult being audited sharing facts that involve having sex with animals is insane. It’s f*cking sick! It makes my stomach turn knowing Serge and other children were submitted to this bullshit. Ugh
Holy crap. That’s some warped whataboutery.
It’s not about sex education taught by a licensed teacher….it’s about the vile, horrendous, personal questions that are asked by a minor to an adult. When I saw the show my heart was breaking for the children that were abused and had their childhood stripped away from them because they wanted to clear the planet. Enough already….stop the abuse….children shouldn’t be subjected to this cults abuses and idiotic policies.
When I was 13 years old and my monthly periods had begun, my mother one day suggested that she and I sit down together with some charts and diagrams so that she could explain the facts of life to me, how babies are conceived, what occurs between a man and a woman, explanation of menstruation, etc. She wanted to explain it all to me.
I adored my mother. We were very close. She was my best friend. I trusted her completely.
But!!
For some reason, my reaction to this mild and logical suggestion of hers – I was 13 after all – was ALARM.
“No! No!”, I protested. ” I don’t want to do this, Mom, please, no!”
Honestly, I have no idea why I reacted this way.
I recall her looking at me curiously for a moment. Then her expression changed and she smiled. Her eyes were kind and her tone was mild. “OK”, she said, “we don’t have to do this now. Whenever you’re ready, you can let me know, and we can talk.”
Hugely relieved, I said, “Thank you!” and she smiled and the subject was dropped.
Shortly afterwards she got very sick and 8 months later she was gone so we never had that talk. But we would have had it, when I was ready.
Now, if I wasn’t ready to learn about sex in a very calm and matter of fact and safe way from my own mother with whom I was very close, someone I loved and trusted more than anyone in the world, I can just imagine what it might have been like to be auditor training and listening to someone’s withholds about perversion or promiscuity, or maybe crimes like rape or having sex with animals…God almighty.
Aqua—
Just wanted to say how sorry I am that you lost your mom at such a young age. That had to be really tough. I’m very close to my mom as well, and I dread the thought of her passing. I can’t imagine how you must have felt losing your mom as a young girl.
(Btw… I laughed out loud at your reaction to having “the talk”. I felt the same way when my mom and I had that conversation.)
If L. Ron Hubbard is the baby and David Miscavige is the bathwater, I say throw them both out!
It is so sad that we are even seeing this going on in this country…. If our nasty President could benefit from investigating this group it would be a rap.. i’m sure he is friends with Misca……. so sad for this to be going on…. ty to Mike and Leah for all u are doing to rock the boat and go after these sob…. wow do they think they can continue to do what ever they want and it wont come down to getting them once and for all. I have been sicken since i saw the show even more so about what they have been doing… there are others who apparently are doing similar stuff in their cult… its a mess…. but i believe God has got this and we will be seeing a lot on the news about this group….they need to take the cross down from their buildings…. u dont want to use God for ur glory too long he will take care of u if u do… believe me…. hope RLH is burning in hell waiting for his homies to come on down… so sad…
OUr nasty president is very cosy with Scientology. Don’t forget, there’s DC org a few short blocks from the White House. I’d say OSA is over Trump like white on rice. List of White On Ricers upon request 🙂 And before anyone splatters like a raw egg dropped on concrete about what I’ve just opined, keep in mind that there nothing new or politically pejorative about Scientology cozying up to US presidents. Scientology is an equal opportunity White On Ricer that only cares about who or what has the POWER at any given time. Don’t forget, via Tom Cruise and John Travolta back in the day, OSA was all over Bill Clinton!
Mary, the point is that the DON’T ‘think’, they just do whatever appeals to them in the moment. Morality means nothing to them, not even the twisted ‘morality of Tubby’s ‘ethics’ (more properly known as punishments applied arbitrarily, capriciously, and usually spitefully.)
“i’m sure he is friends with Misca…”
Your proof for this assertion?
bixntram, Mary is a nut job. No sense out of her mouth.
I am reminded of these Hubbard pearls of wisdom: When you’re in trouble ask yourself, what would Ron do?
The best answer is to do the opposite!
Scribe:”I am reminded of these Hubbard pearls of wisdom: When you’re in trouble ask yourself, what would Ron do?
“WWRD? of course something nefarious, so do the reverse and HELP someone.
And another call-out for which I can receive nothing in return, except maybe a rescued still-in’s thanks:
Remember to help your fellow human and support the Aftermath Foundation however you can.
For the record, Hubbard’s/Scientology’s “INTELLIGENCE SPECIALIST TRAINING ROUTINE – TR L*”.
“Purpose: To train the student to give a false statement with good TR-1. To train the student to outflow false data effectively.
Commands: Part l “Tell me a lie. …. … …
The student should be coached on a gradient until he/she can lie facily.”
http://suppressiveperson.org/2016/09/09/intelligence-specialist-training-routine-tr-l/
Scientology indeed has exercises for its members to drill and coach how to effectively lie.
* “L” stand s for “Lie”
Thanks for the exact reference.
This reads like it should be the opening statement at RICO trial of the entire $cieno world. But as law enforcement is not willing to build an actual criminal case, I guess we’ll have to wait for all the civil suits to go to trial for a small measure of justice.
Shame on everyone who impedes any investigation into the Clampire. Shame does not affect any $cientologist or their political and law enforcement minions. So outing their actions or inaction’s in public is the right way to go.
ze moo:
“This reads like it should be the opening statement at RICO trial of the entire $cieno world. But as law enforcement is not willing to build an actual criminal case, I guess we’ll have to wait for all the civil suits to go to trial for a small measure of justice.”
IIRC, the Aftermath finale indicated, in part, that the civil suits could create cracks in the veneer that scn puts up that various DAs might take advantage of. For instance Laura D’s suit established at the US Supreme Court level that PC and other files are not necessarily protected against legal discovery, at least when their subject requests they be entered into evidence.
I believe David “Little Boots” was cheated.
I believe the best part of him slide off his mother’s ass and became a stain on the
bed sheet.
Auditor? hell no, he would never be able to get his Act one in period.
The best part of him a stain on the bed sheet? Here’s another theory: when Miscavige was born they threw out the baby and raised the afterbirth.
You know what I found “utterly” ridiculous about the COS denials of the charges thrown down on them? Their denials were WE ALWAYS DO WHAT IS REQUIRED…when it comes to reporting sexual offenses, cooperating with authorities and everything else. HOW about this COS. NAME ONE TIME YOU DID IT. Give an example. That is how you PROVE your credibility. But, of course, there are no examples.
With their duplicity….I am almost shocked that they don’t just LIE about turning in evil doers. The only time they “turn in” or “out” criminal activity is when they fair game an ex member. But that is all BS as well.
The pretzel logic they use is part of the reason they are on the ropes. And nothing quite like the POLICY coming back to haunt them. Suing all those IRS employees individually was brilliant strategy. Now…SUING Miscaviage and others will probably be the end of it.
They ALWAYS do what they’re REQUIRED? Tell that to the kids who got NO education once they were consumed by scientology. the ones who are PRIDEFULLY ignorant of basic things like the efficacy of vaccinations, or any other real-world knowledge or sensibilities (dismissed as ‘wog’, categorically, unthinkingly).
Cat, I suspect Foolproof is one of Miscaviges favorite people. Certainly a close follower of the “official line”. An SF, “Smarmy Fellow”!
Everyone should just calm down a little as re Foolproof. He is an Indie Scientologist who left Co$ years ago. He is anti-Miscavige and pro-LRH, passionately committed to practicing, preserving and defending LRH’s tech. Foolproof never defends Miscavige. He’s not OSA. OSA would never engage to the extent that Foolproof enganges. He likes to come on here and get people riled up. He amuses himself by getting everyone stirred up. From his writing style and the phrases and terms he uses I’d say he was a Brit. Possibly Australian or Irish but more likely British notwithstanding where he might be residing now. I don’t know Foolproof and no one told me this but I’ve been informally analyzing his posts for a while and came to these conclusions. Essentially he’s a harmless, Indie troll who writes well and gets a kick out of verbal debate.
Thank you Aquamarine. I thought Foolproof had replied to me, maybe 2? years ago (not sure how long I’ve been posting here), that he wasn’t a scientologist, but still believed in the tech. Something along that line. I may have saved it in a file, but it’s neither here nor there really.
Yep, I deduced a while ago from a couple of his retorts to comments of mine that we are/were known to each other which would most likely make him a Brit. I’ve had my suspicions about his identity.
Peter:
“Cat, I suspect Foolproof is one of Miscaviges favorite people. Certainly a close follower of the “official line”. An SF, “Smarmy Fellow”!”
Someone–I forget who– suggested that FOOLproof might just BE DM. I doubt so, as he doesn’t fly off into a drunken rage like Davey-boy seems to do. He’s just ignorant and addicted to the “company line”, accepting it meaningful reflection.
OOPS! Falure to edit, again::
accepting it meaningful reflection should have been accepting it WITHOUT meaningful reflection.
I think one of the most powerful weapons against the conscious decadent deception that Scientology uses with their legal responses is to always reveal the actual Hubbard writing that instructs that lie and deception.
In that regard I think the best argument is not to argue at all, but to simply show in text, on a screen or to a jury or judge the actual words of Hubbard that instruct their behavior.
Just sit back, eat popcorn and let the words of L Ron Hubbard suppress L Ron Hubbard. Let the words of L Ron Hubbard reveal the reason DM is like Gollum.
There is not one behavior demonstrated by the church and it’s lawyers that are not applying the words.
Possible planning approach in a court deposition or with a jury.
1) find the Hubbard writing that demands to follow Hubbard’s words religiously
2) ask the Scientology entity being sued: do you follow the words of LRon Hubbard?
3) then show the jury the actual words that instruct black ops, ruin utterly etc.
Mike, shorten your “How to deal with critics” a Scientology Playbook.
Condense it down to the most atrocious, egregious, degenerate ideas – like all critics are criminals and we have the research. The. Ask them for research papers.
Always ask to see the research in a court of law.
Continue asking for research when Hubbard said he did research.
Not being able to present research papers – EVER – will prove in a court of law that there are no research papers.
EVERY SINGLE TIME, WHEN SCIENTOLOGY EXPRESSES A KNOWN TRAIT OF ATTACT THE ATTACKER…………SHOW THAT TRAIT IN WRITING.
LAWYERS:
Get with Mike, Leah and others and work on a compilation of Hubbard’s words that lead to the reason these lawsuit exists.
All you need is complicit Scientology minions to say they follow the words of L Ron Hubbard. Then simply reveal the crazy mad writings like “all critics are SPs” to the jury or judge.
It’s actually very simple to bring down Hubbard: reveal his writings as the source of illegal activity to a jury when they are being sued.
Thank you Mike and Leah. Infinite gratitude for you guys
Example:
So Mr F, do you follow the words of Hubbard
Mr F. Yes
So you allowed your 10 year old to join the Sea Org and you never stay in contact?
Can you please tell me what Hubbard meant when he said, “families are bad groups”, can you explain to the jury what Hubbard meant when he said that.
There are soooooo many examples of Hubbard’s maniacal instructions. Let his words be the silver bullet to fell the beast.
Great strategy!
I second that
Brian, a more succinct statement is that the most effective weapon against the interlocking set of corporations called “scientology” is the TRUTH. and Leah & mike have been supplying a healthy dose of it for 3 years with the “Aftermath” docuseries — e-r-r, MULTIPLE EMMY AWARD-WINNING DOCUSERIES:”Leah Remini’s Scientology and the Aftermath”(Sorry if I misduped the show’ name….
Oh Boy, Miscavige can whine, and continue to lie as much as he wants, but the facts are the facts.
There are 1,000s of witnesses, such as myself and anyone that has been in the Sea Org, who can testify that all that has been written in this article, and all said during the FBI Investigation, and all said at the Aftermath is true.
We can also add the frauds and lies to the Government as far as immigration goes: workers with no visas for years, but working anyway; or false marriages where the couples live separate while pretending they are married and the visa eventually gets granted, and …many more crimes and abuses.
And wait till we get to your income, taxes and expenses Miscavige.
Silvia:
“Oh Boy, Miscavige can whine, and continue to lie as much as he wants, but the facts are the facts.
” Davey-boy’s lawyers will simply assert that ALL those statements are ‘taken out of context’. Even if they showed as evidence the whole into to scn ‘ethics’ book, the lawyers would scream that to high “heaven” — or would that be to the whole Galactic Federation?
Where Fool Proof is concerned, only the first word applies. Whenever I see his trashy posts, I always recall a favorite word, first taught to me by the convicted Guardian World Wide, Jane Kember: TWIT!
From WAY back I’ve seen MANY minor auditors in the S.O. sec check adults on sexual behavior of ALL types. EXTREMELY common on the RPF. Heck I knew a minor girl at Flag who was a Class IX and Sec checked TONS of adults on Elig. and tailor made sec checks that included sexual content. I also knew of a minor who was Scn Magistrate that sec checked tons of adults. Many of those would include looking for sexual “overts”. I myself interviewed and gave “ethics handling’s” to COUNTLESS numbers of adults when I was a minor. About half included transgressions of a sexual nature.
The ONLY people who have any real experience in scamology that would try to misdirect or deny in this area are the completely batsh!t crazy ones.
Wynski:
“The ONLY people who have any real experience in scamology that would try to misdirect or deny in this area are the completely batsh!t crazy ones.”
That MAY be completely redundant: Anyone still in after hearing PART of the truth and ignoring it is WILLFULLY batshit crazy and liking it that way.
They could have saved a lot of lawyer billing hours if they just sent one letter that said:
Anyone, anywhere, who says anything negative about $cientology, or $cientologists, is a liar.
Anyone, anywhere, who says good things about $cientology, or $cientologists, is telling the truth.
Of course, the 2nd line would include $cientologists telling a ‘shore story’ to cover for $cientology.
Remarkably thorough rebuttal, Mike.
Dave Miscavige’s legal strategy: Deny, defy, stupefy. Dauntless, defiant, resolutely risible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QTFDRhiU68
Gives new meaning to the old adage that when you are out of arguments, bang on the bench and hurl accusations.
At the Int Base there is a harsher version of the normal interrogation techniques.
Dave insisted that there were more criminals to be found and instituted his own underage squad of inquisitors, straight outta RTC. Around 2003 or so. After one of these “sessions” I flat out told the hard-eyed young female interrogator: “Whatever we just did, it wasn’t Scientology!”
She didn’t even blink, her thousand yard stare and cold chromium RTC steel demeanor completely intact. Not even an answer. I thought it would come up in the next session, but it didn’t. Just more dumb questions about my pitifully meager sex life. Guess she agreed with me but couldn’t say it.
Dave is not even pretending to be a Scientologist or defend his “religion” or create anything of any use to the world anymore. He just wants us all to shut up and go away so he can play with his expensive toys and bask in the admiration of the few remaining whales.
Sorry, Dave, it is not going to be that easy.
Hubbard Communication Office Bulletins are now interpreted by the whims of David Miscavige, thus giving us Herr COB.
Scribe:
“Hubbard Communication Office Bulletins are now interpreted by the whims of David Miscavige, thus giving us Herr COB.”
Scribe, please forgive this life-long Pennsylvanian for seeing “Herr” and thinking potato chips, or possibly pretzel bits, manufactured locally to us. The mustard-flavored pretzel bits are particularly addicting. Of course, THAT has absolutely nothing to do with Dwarenführer, does it? Just a pleasant side-effect of my dyslexia [I’m amazed each time I remember how to spell that word.
Yea. I got a similar thing when I flat out told one of my last auditor’s to “End this fucking session right now. Does no one here do a folder study?!” Her emotionless response? “Have I missed a withhold on you?” I screamed, “On my GOD!” I never in a million years thought I would have been a PC that responded this way in session nor one who threw the cans, but I almost did that too, instead I just set them down. She ended and I F/Ned at exam. LOL
Mary – “Venting” gave you an F/N. Very nice – laughter
The Young Sea Ogres – Miscavige’s Children of the Corn could have given Hitler’s Nazi Youth a run for their money. How I would go out of my way, back in the day, to avoid giving ANY of these stone faced creatures a “stat”. I’d never buy anything from them; would never allow them to reg me for ANYTHING. Instead, at events, I’d let a Class V staff member sell me whatever it was they were selling (there was always SOMEthing). Back then I didn’t know that the SO HAD to put on this AWFUL facade. The cold-chrome steel thing. I didn’t know it was a facade. I thought they were NATURALLY like this. Oh, well… I certainly have THEM to thank for my never following thru with a staff contract. I’d mentally shudder, back in the day, thinking about them being my seniors, these strange children, ordering me around as they did the CL V staff, these emotionless little kids having that kind of power over me, with me having to answer to them. I always knew that I would never obey them, that I’d never accept their authority and it would never work.
In the 1970s I recall very few sea orgers walking around in the public areas, even at the American Saint Hill Organization in LA where I did several courses. I’m sure they were very busy behind the scenes.
Those were the days my friend, we thought they’d never end . . . etc. (sorry – joke
Children of the Corn – Phew! Scary!
In reality almost all of them are victims with maybe a few which fits their basic personality, but even that is debatable.
Re: ‘Foolproof’ – Everyone, please note, ‘Where Speech Is SILVER, Silence is GOLDEN’; i.e., do not dignify this lamebrain’s comment(s) with a reply, EVER AGAIN.
Especially when there is no retort that one can make about the comment eh? I’m not defending Miscavige, just stating a fact. After all, ye are all seekers of truth here, no?
Belynda,Thanks for that cogent reminder.👍🏻😎
Belynda, that’s a good idea, but I enjoy taunting the troll too much.
Please do not stop. Their day of reckoning is coming.
Do we get water breaks?
“Do we get water breaks?”
Whenever you need one, OSD.
Thanks, jere! You’re a true gentleman!
Yes, and unlimited surfing in the location of your choice paid for by refunded monies from Davy Boy’s slush fund. Cowabunga dude!
My dream just came true. Thanks, Scribe!
Very well written research into Scientology. Had I read this thirty five years ago as a real Scientologist, I would have defended Hubbard because my mind was twisted into a cult. At one time in my life I did believe that somehow Hubbard had unlocked the secrets of the universe. Having served in the Army during the Viet Nam War, I turned against the war after being discharged. Scientology was an alternative to the insanity that was all around me. It took completing OT VIII on the Freewinds in 1988 to break the hold that Hubbard had upon me. What saved me in the end was the utter stupidity of Hubbard’s “Student Briefing”. The utter shock of reading these words by Hubbard, revealed that he was indeed an uneducated moron. The ultimate failure of his implant auditing was the final proof that the man was deluded. Hubbard’s disregard for morality was nothing more than an overactive ego believing in its own right to negate the facts of existence. Scientology should today be dissolved. It really serves no useful purpose and has been degraded even further by Miscavige.
I suppose everyone who entered scientology had some expectation of “unlocking the secrets of the universe”, but everyone had different expectations. I would have been satisfied with developing a few extrasensory or paranormal abilities. Maybe it just comes naturally to some people. Here’s an example of telekinesis. (Remember the movie “Carrie”?)
“Cirice” (Church) by “Ghost”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Ao4t_fe0I&list=RD-0Ao4t_fe0I&start_radio=1
powerful Occult stuff
George:”Hubbard, revealed that he was indeed an uneducated moron.”
PRIDEFULLY ignorant.
True
Actually Mike, I think you will find that if you did some research (ahem!), the addition of the Joburg Confessional to the Grade 2 course checksheet came around 1982-4 with the HCO PL updates of the old BPL checksheets that time. I remember that well, as I thought it was a good idea and should have been on the previous BPL checksheet. So as your COBber Dave was doing his Grades checksheets around 1972, this couldn’t have happened. Just sayin’. And as I recall, such knowledge was imparted on another (BTB) checksheet, which I think was called the Integrity Processing Specialist or some variation of that phrase.
Foolproof, are you denying that Dave and other minors who became auditors ever asked adults sexually explicit questions?
I don’t know. And neither do you. But from my experience we never had anyone under the age of 18 in the major course rooms anyway, I think because the GO didn’t allow it. As to minors auditing people these must have been rare occasions, in fact it only occurred in the SO AFAIK. I heard of or rather read of, but didn’t know personally, one young girl (how old I don’t know) who was apparently a Class 8 but apart from that I have never heard of any other minors (if she was) auditing people and I was involved in Orgs for over 10 years.
Pretty much head in the sand on this one. I was in the SO for 30 years. Minors auditing, sec checking, and performing metered ethics interviews was common in any of the SO Orgs. What org were you associated with?
FOOLproof, you prove the adage that scientologists lie, must lie, can’t not lie. It’s in your ‘scripture’, inviolable and immutable — unless your name happens to be Davey Miscavige.
While I do not remember whether the FSO had auditors who were minors in the different HGCs and on the Internship during the early 1990s, I nevertheless can state the following:
The CMO and HCO FSO had numerous minors on staff who were regularly sec-checking adult FSO and FLB staff on the usual topics: bad statistics and out-ethical behavior (including Out-2 D situations). They were also studying PC folders and Ethics folders.
And: The Continental Justice Chief of the Base (CJC EUS) at that time was a 15- or 16-year old girl: Elyssa Alexander. The daughter of Rick and Minty Alexander.
Oy, poor kid.
WRONG moron aka Foolproof. There were people under 18 in org Div 4 course rooms. And NO, the GO had no such policy you brainless nut-job. There were MANY underage auditors in SO orgs where sec checks and ethics interviews were given to adults about sexual activity. Your posts show that you had almost no real experience in major scn orgs but are simply making up lies to fit your other lies.
FP had to respond; his master Hubbard wrote “always attack.” In this case it is a deflection, a classic Hubbardite move, designed to try to invalidate the whole by invalidating a part. Maybe Mike got his dates wrong; I’m sure he feels chagrined about that if such is actually the case. Or maybe he is correct in principle, that auditing questions when Miscavige was a “prodigy” were inappropriate for children to be asking adults. Whatever, it does not invalidate the experiences that Serge Gill and others describe.
FP, do you have a comeback for an 11-year-old female rape victim being forced to apologize to her much older rapist?
I wonder how long did FP have to look to find something to deflect from the whole? Did he notice that in some cases the COS did not deny, they simply said it was “absurd to think” that such behavior had occurred in Scientology?
I know from prior comments, FP, that you are no fan of Miscavige, so why are you defending what happened on his watch? Did yo enjoy your little snark (ahem!) when checking Joburg Confessional dates? Did you look at prior auditor lists to see if there were similar questions, or did you just enjoy your momentary (ahem!) superiority?
FP, I sincerely hope you watched Aftermath Finale. Even if you still like Hubbard’s guff, I can’t believe you agree with the crimes these people describe, nor do I think you can comfortably agree that they are all lying. I mean, you do like cats, so you can’t be all bad. Just indoctrinated.
FP, the record is clear. Hubbard changed in the mid-sixties, when he introduced his bizarro-world Ethics which he described as a program to protect Scientology, and the KSW program, in which he proclaimed himself Source in so many words. Prior to that his aim was (mostly) money; after, it was (mostly) power and control of individuals, though he never forgot to grab a dollar when he could.
In closing, FP, have you had your tasty and restorative glass of Cal-Mag today?
The HCOBs from 1950-84 are easily available on the Internet, so there is no hiding the truth of what Hubbard wrote.
I stopped responding to Foolproof some time ago.
Please note: every single comment he’s ever made here has been vindictive and snarky. Every one. He obviously enjoys it. It’s the only reason he’s ever shared here.
“Whatever, it does not invalidate the experiences that Serge Gill and others describe. FP, do you have a comeback for an 11-year-old female rape victim being forced to apologize to her much older rapist?”
FP queries one of Mike’s statements and you interpret that as a form of abuse denial or rape apologism. Wtf!?
Go back to school. Take a class in reading comprehension. The first sentence was a summation that FP’s attempted deflection by jumping on any minor misstatement, which is a standard tactic in Scientology, did not invalidate Mr Gil’s stated experiences as a minor auditor. The second was simply a question, to which there was no reply, though silly me thought that FP might pick up on that softball inquiry and try to rejoin the human race with an unequivocal “no, forcing an underage victim to apologize to their adult attacker is not right.”
If you watched Aftermath Finale then you might know what everyone else is talking about.
Don’t bother to reply, because I won’t.
That’s okay, I don’t need you to. I can see where your argument would ultimately lead even if you can’t.
You are talking to a guy who actually believes in baby farms and blowing up planets. Once these lines of irrationality have been crossed, the Scientologist uses the justification of “knowingness” to persuade.
Foolproof is a Scientologist. By their very nature they can not communicate rationally. There are too many mental distortion filters of Hubbard make believe, for them to even come close to a logical and sane dialog.
Nothing like the word “knowingness” to justify the tooth fairy, psyches are from Farsec, all critics are criminal SPs, body pressures are alien beings.
Stay tuned for my essay on Scientology “knowingness”.
Excellent point, Brian. A succinct definition of one kind of prison of belief.
I think you need to have a good imagination to be a scientologist. A lot of people would read the first two pages of a science fiction story and give up saying, “That’s just too unreal.” Likewise with the paranormal and the supernatural although a lot of people have an interest in those sort of things. Too bad scientology didn’t recruit Stephen King. He would have “pulled in” a lot more people than Tom Cruise.
Foolproof is a Scientologist. By their very nature they can not communicate rationally. There are too many mental distortion filters of Hubbard make believe, for them to even come close to a logical and sane dialog.
If true then this arguably applies to all those of faith, no?
Sexually Explicit Questions ‘R’ US.
He can doubt it because he didn’t see it, but I saw it. I was on lines for 30 years and during my auditor training days in the 90’s I knew of at least 2 families (one of which I was good friends with, the other more friends of a friend) who’s teen-aged children were training up the grades (separately, not twinned) one of which was on Level 2 (and the other was training on Level 3 or 4). Even at that time I was concerned that a kid that age was auditing on the subjects that would be taken up in a Level 2 auditing session. One of those kids joined the Sea Org and is still in as far as I know.
When I was in, for a brief time I had an academy supervisor who was then 14 years old and a full fledged Academy Course Sup. (Born in of course. Both her parents were CL V org staff.) At one point she was “handling” me on an upset I had about having so many misunderstood words on some course I was doing. She told me that when she was an intern auditor at age 11 or 12 – not sure on what Level but maybe she told me and I forgot – anyway, she told me that when she was interning she audited a PC, a guy who shared something about masturbation. His masturbation. She didn’t say whether he considered it an overt act or not. She didn’t say how old he was. Old enough to masturbate I suppose.
Maybe he was a Sea Org member and she was auditing out his overts. I don’t know. The point of her story was that at that age she didn’t know what masturbation WAS. When she told me this she didn’t seem upset about it. Perhaps she was upset at the time and got “handled” on it afterwards. I don’t know; I didn’t ask her. She was telling me this because at the time I was freaked out about having so many misunderstood words on my course that had to be looked up and she was trying to make me laugh and feel better.
Forgot to mention: this Academy Sup was a Class IV at age 13.
So all minors after 82-84 were asking sexually explicit questions?
From what I experienced it was only if they were training to be an auditor and then doing that type of auditing. And only if they had a person who needed to be asked those sorts of questions. Not every auditor trainee (even adults) in my days as an auditor had to ask those questions. It depended on what sort of auditing or confessional program the person was supposed to receive.
However the sea org RPF is FULL of these sorts of questions so if you get dumped there, you’re going to be asking that stuff of your “twin.” And your twin is going to be asking you.
I worked in a lower level class 4 org for 11 years before joining the sea org, and I can’t remember any parishioners’ or staff’s children, even teenagers, doing any kind of auditor training at all in the org. They were in school like regular kids. Several staff had children too, but when they came into the org because there was no sitter that day or to be with mom or dad, they usually got put to work on simple things and busy work in the offices that they were able to do.
There is a difference in the levels of organizations and the higher up you go the more controlling and insane it gets.
The sea org was totally different. The treatment of children in the sea org was (is) horrific. At one point several teenagers “graduated” from the location where they had been living, working and supposedly doing some sort of school work, and were put on posts within the organization. Some wrote at the level of fifth graders, no manners, very little ability to sit still and do any sort of work, VERY judgmental and critical, still very un-educated. I know of one who somehow was pretty smart and made it onto the auditor training and became more calm, polite and kind (within the boundaries of a teenager). I don’t know if this teenager did those sorts of confessionals but it’s very possible.
This is an awfully long way around answering your question, if after 82-84 all minors were asking sexually explicit questions. The answer is No, but truthfully ANY minor having to go through that is horrible enough. To make that point even further, if a minor wanted to learn how to audit there are plenty of other things they could learn and audit as a beginner that would not involve this subject matter. And they should be twinned up with another minor, not an adult.
In the sea org the whole “you’re a thetan, millions of years old, not a child” is used to the hilt to break the will and destroy the interests of a child. Like wanting to see their mom or dad, playing games and sports, wanting something different to eat because you hate what’s served, straying off to look and wonder at something interesting, hugging friends, family and pets…their childhoods are completely stolen from them, and their personalities are squashed and warped into something they could only hopefully pull themselves out of if they escaped the cult.
Kyle, 82-84 is irrelevant. Sexual questions in sec checking has been going on since the 60’s. Kids who were auditors or Dept 3 personnel would have been interrogating adults about explicit sexual activities that Hubtard considered aberrant. Which is everything except the missionary position.
More irrelevant blathering from Mr. Batsh!t crazy. DM was an Div 4 HGC AUDITOR at an AOSH Org. That means he did ALL kinds of sec checking INCLUDING tailor made and ELIGIBILITY. THAT means he sec checked sexual overt questions AS A CHILD WITH ADULTS.
Wynski, Are you saying that Davey-boy was an HGC auditor after having failed his internship for punching out his female PC? In the early ’70s when I did my Levels, anyone doing that in NY would still be doing retreads and retrains to this day. ANY thing like that was a definite No-no.
Davey said he was an HGC auditor. Also, Hubard wouldn’t do much to anyone for hitting a PC as long as the PC resigned for more intensives. I can see by your question that you didn’t know how Hubtard ran the orgs.
Foolpoof,
Correct. I was auditing ‘Complete Your Case’ packages ( $1,500 for 100 hours) at the AOLA in 1971. That was when the numerous processes for each grade were extracted from the earliest files and eventually became formalized as expanded grades. I never ran any form of seccheck as part of grade 2 on anyone through that time. Just saying….
FP just because you didn’t sec check people during your 1971 tenure at AOLA doesn’t mean it didn’t happen later, starting in the 80’s. I saw a 12 year old girl on my metering course in the 80’s because she was training to be a Class IV auditor. She audited the Grades, including Grade II on people older than herself. And Grade II includes the long and explicit Joburg Sec Check.
Cindy,
Time frames are important.
If I have it right, Foolproof was refering to Mike’s statement at the top that, as a 12 year old in 1972, DM was running Joberg secchecks as part of Grade 2. My point was that in 1971 the Grade 2 processes that I ran PCs on did not include any of the seccheck forms. I was a contract staff auditing paying public and never got caught up in the sea org crapola,, noticable even then. SO could have already devolved to ‘lord of the flies’ by then for all I know and been running jobrgs on children.
I dug out 7 January 1972 HCOB: 0-IV Expanded Grade Processes – Triple, Part D, just to refresh my memory and found that none of the listed 30 processes were secchecks. Secchecks existed at that time but they were not listed in the Grade 2 processes. That was my point.
Later on is a different scene. When I walked out in 1983/4, I saw the police state it had already turned into and would have had nothing to do with it. Had anyone told me to:’Pick up the cans. I am not auditing you.’ My response would have been to immedialely drop the cans and walk out of the room.
Given the two contexts noted above I was pointing out that Foolproof was correct. I also knew he would get flack no matter what he wrote.
FPjr your statement is irrelevant. As an HGC auditor he would have run sec checks on PCs occasionally. ESPECIALLY working as an auditor in an AOSH level org in Div 4 HGC, It doesn’t matter what was premade sec checks on Grade course.
FPjr – Also, just for the sake of accuracy, the final episode seemed to imply that all auditing was of the nature of security checking. Auditors like yourself and others would never have continued auditing for years of that were the case. Maybe it was the editing or maybe I have misinterpreted. DM may have altered the mindset of auditors but I was out in 1982 before he took over.
Richard,
For all we know secchecking and O/Ws are the mainstay actions nowdays. Yuck! I’ll pass on that black hole into the Inferno.
I for one am not sorry to see FP get the boot. His flubbering and blubbering,
trying to somehow justify Scientology was just too much, certainly considering the audience many of us saw this week who had been harmed so much. He was so proud to think he had caught Mike in a minor mistake (ahem!) in which Miscavige could not have been a minor when the Joburg was doing whatever it was doing. That was pure Scientological nit-picking to distract from the actual bad practices going on. In looking up the actual HCO Policy Letter, the Joburg was released 7 April 1961, and lightly revised 30 May 1975. Miscavige was born in 1960, so pick any release date for the Joburg, and Miscavige was still a minor. Did he audit on the Joburg? He could have, but does it matter? Not really.
As Mike says, the details of the auditing that Miscavige did or did not do as a 12-year-old child “protege” auditor are immaterial. What matters is that for decades child auditors in Scientology have been forced to put themselves across a desk from adults, usually strangers, and read off age-inappropriate questions about the adult’s sexual attitudes and behaviors – then dig deeper into the topic if the needle flickers just so! In many cases the child auditor might not even know what those behaviors are. And just because some auditors did not themselves see or know about minors auditing on age-inappropriate questions, the fact remains that there are credible witnesses telling that as minors they were made to audit adults about their pedophilia-like sex practices.
But what exactly are those “age-inappropriate questions of a sexual nature” For those lucky enough to never have purchased any Hubbard materials, one can go to Wikileaks and elsewhere to find copies of the original Hubbard Communication Office documents.
The revised Joburg is in “scientology-HCOBs-1972-1976.pdf” starting about page 419. The original is in the 1961 set of HCO docs somewhere after page 325.
An list of even more despicable questions for any minor to have to ask is found again at Wikileaks, called “Sec Check Whole Track” about page 337 in the file scientology-HCOBs-1960-1961.pdf.
Try this to link to the Wikileaks docs:
https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Scientology_leaks_by_date
or use this to go straight to the Technical docs:
https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Scientology_cult_Hubbard_Communications_Office_Bulletins_(1950-1984)
Within each one is a table of contents to help locate specific documents.
I do not recommend anyone not familiar with Scientology to read much of what Hubbard wrote. He really was a master of “the confusion technique” and he was able to draw even the most sensible of folks into his web. So if someone wants to dip their toe in, watch out for Hubbard’s Kraken still lurking in the deep end.
Hubbard wrote and spoke with “certainty”. The debate continues about how much of his own stuff he truly believed.
Throughout history many people have claimed to be the reincarnation of Jesus, Buddha or some other historically significant religious figure and groups of people believed them and followed them.
Hubbard anointed himself as Source, but when someone presents creation stories as factual reality they are speaking as Prophet. Buyer beware.