In truth, every “ideal org” is a scam — but some are scammier than others. Boston comes to mind. New Haven and Battle Creek that have sat empty and neglected for more than a decade. But St Louis might be the greatest scam of idealiness of all.
In terms that scientologists can really relate to — it is epic, monumental and watershed.
Here are a few relevant details:
In 2007 scientology bought a new building that was to become their “ideal org.” In 2010, the org ED, Chad Lane, announces in the St Louis Post Despatch
* “the nearly 65,000 sq.ft. building is the ideal size for expansion in the metro area”
* “By Spring, restoration should be complete on the ornate auditorium of the German House”
* Lane led a fundraising effort that generated about $4,000,000 (2010) only $940,000 to go.
* “the restoration will cost $940,000 plus about $100,000 to deal with lead paint”
The article further quotes Chad Lane as saying “after thieves took copper gutters and downspouts, water leaked through the roof last year and ruined much of the auditorium’s maple floor, which must be replaced.”
Some former victims of the scam claim scientology turned in an insurance claim for the water and received $1,000,000 payout. Yet they also claim the water damage existed when the building was purchased and believe the insurance claim was fraudulent.
People who were around at the time say Chad Lane informed fundraisers to NOT tell parishioners they received the insurance money. They wanted to be able to tell people that “others were stepping up” and so should they.
But they kept pushing this new “ideal” 65,000 square foot building — eventually claiming they needed a total of $17 million to make the ideal org dream come true. Though strangely they always refer to dollars as “reasons” or “steps” like talking money is obscene. What is obscene is the scam. I bet they would declare someone who showed up to one of their fundraisers and “pledged” to give 50,000 reasons to help the dream come true. And it IS a dream they sell — they claim an ideal org brings with it “250 staff” and “clearing at correct orders of magnitude.” Somehow this magically occurs because a building is opened.
But lo and behold, here is the latest twist. If you read through the shermanspeak hype you will discern that they “debugged” their ideal org – BY STAYING IN THEIR EXISTING BUILDING. The “we will be done by Spring 2011” is a distant non-memory.
The amazing hype in here makes your eyes water. On Sept 24, 2018 “We were approved”? What, the magnificent perfect ideal org purchased in 2007 was never approved? The statement to the press in 2010 were not true?
This is one of the few places where you see the statement that an ideal org has 250 staff (none of them do — the majority have only have a handful).
But just look at what this says: “The completion of the fundraising will mean the opening of the ideal org. And that means 250 staff, volumes of clears produced and a profound impact on the entire Midwest”. Are they planning on using some of the money they raise to buy staff and auditors? Where do they think they are going to come from? The people that give their money are not going to join staff. They did their bit… and as you can see from the photo they only have about 30 public.
And I love how this is going to have a “profound impact” on the entire Midwest. Like Dallas had a profound impact on the entire state of Texas? Atlanta is profoundly impacting the entire Deep South? This is not even a normal dream It’s a fever dream. Delirium.
But wait a second — if you are ALREADY in the “best possible spot” and you already have all the tech — why no impact now? Because of no underground parking? No children’s playground?
This is not just an “ideal org” it is a “work of art”? Seriously?
But they do have a “Why St. Louis” thingie to offer…
Some history that might get you excited about giving money to the historical society, but nothing to do with why an ideal org is needed here as opposed to Des Moines.
Speaking of which — if this org is the “gateway to the heartland” and has been around for 50 yers, how come there aren’t any other orgs in the Midwest (except Kansas City)? Why hasn’t this “central org” opened up dozens (hundreds by now) of missions which grew into orgs? That is was Hubbard said was supposed to happen? Again, it’s the missing playground’s fault.
These glowing shots of happy, smiling people miss those who have gone bankrupt trying to finance this ideal org wet dream. And those who have avoided bankruptcy but put themselves into financial peril. They’ve got nothing to show for their sacrifice other than a few certificates. And if they don’t toe the party line, they will find themselves unable to even enter the building if it does ever get done, just like Bert and Lynne Schippers, big donors to the Seattle Idle Org who never got to see what their money paid for.
Scientology, thy name is scam.
As an update, the old St. Louis German House property at 2345 Lafayette Avenue, that the org bought to renovate and then left derelict, appears to still be on the market, though they were supposed to have been taking no-minimum-price bids on it:
https://www2.colliers.com/en/Properties/redevelopment-opportunity-in-historic-lafayette-square/USA-2345-lafayette-avenye-st-louis-mo-63104/USA1053322
Like a similar white elephant property that the Boston org bought long ago and has been trying to unload more recently, any deal may be contingent on a the buyer being able to come up with a redevelopment plan and get city approval, which can drag out for years.
The org has switched its “ideal” org plan to renovating and adding a large addition to their existing building, instead. However, in a recent post to another of the old topics about St. Louis, someone reports that they’re not even using the top floor of that building:
https://www.mikerindersblog.org/the-real-state-of-scientology-st-louis-style/#comment-267593
That’s got to make it an extra hard sell to the locals.
I was born and raised in St. Louis. In 1975, when I was 14, my older brother and I were exiting a baseball game at Busch stadium. I group of young people were handing out Scientology leaflets. When I was handed one, I quickly handed it back and proclaimed, “L. Ron Hubbard really sucks!” (My brother laughed). My point being, even in 1975, we all knew Scientology was a cult. St. Louis was hardly a Scientology stronghold, but we knew it was a scam. I am disheartened they now have a huge building there. I hope it remains empty!
Cringe.
Saint Louis Scientologist Jill Baell-Casto was the one most likely handing out those stupid pamphlets. She drinks the koolaid heavily and is enrolling her grandkids into the cult after getting her kids into it – all but 1
It is a very sad and pathetic life she has lived supporting this evil cult that has robbed her of any normal and fulfilling life.
She thinks she pulls all bad things that happen to her…in
and anything good that happens to her – is due to Scientology
Nothing good happens to her
She is basically a nice person and I hope she gets out of the cult to know the truth even though it may kill her – she deserves to know she was in a cult that scammed her out of her entire adult life
I have the dubious honor of designing their Ideal Org logo. I drew it up for a recruitment postcard a couple of decades ago, when going Saint Hill Size was all the rage. My version was more dynamic, the S-Double Triangle blasting through the Arch with sunbeams, but I must admit their reworking of the slogan is better. (“Heartland” is boss copy.)
I wonder if those donors know that the emblem blazoned across their schwag, certs, and this article is the product of an SP?
Mary Engelbreit should have upped her offer to buy the building out from under the church back in ’99. It would have spared U-City from the ugly monstrosity they’re planning to plant there. There’s still hope it won’t happen, of course. As you point out, their last planned Ideal Org went bust, and we all know how long it takes Scientology to build a building (How long did Superpower take from groundbreaking to opening?)
If it goes forward, I would be concerned about the underground parking. The northeastern corner of the parking lot had a tendency to flood.
Glad you’re out!!
I just can’t find any sympathy for the big donors who are out and about in the free world, have absolute freedom to look into where their big donations go. They just seem to be perfectly content to remain ignorant of what’s going on as long as they get their certificates and praise. Big donors but shallow little people. Shame on them and I hope they get the get the opportunity to experience the very same abuse they allow to be inflicted on so many. Then, get the opportunity to try to make amends.
Nancy Cartwright comes to mind. ( voice of Bart Simpson) She should have it figured out by now! She looks like she’s having the time of her life with those silly awards. I always wonder why does she need that?? I can’t even watch the Simpson’s because of her. Cowabunga dude! Wake up Nancy!!
LOL Ann. Cowabunga indeed! I’m with you on just what keeps her there other than maybe the attention. Truth is I wouldn’t even know who she was though if it wasn’t for places like this or the Underground Bunker. I’ve never heard of most of the celebs. I guess I’m from a different audience, of a different age. Or, it’s those darned senior moments?
Totally agree with you, Peggy L. Those big donors should know better and probably do know better, in their heart of hearts. But here’s a clue as to why they’re so willfully blind:
The Love Bombing.
Its addicting, Peggy.
You would not BELIEVE how AMAZINGLY GOOD the org staffs are at love bombing.
DO NOT think for a minute that they engage in obvious flattery. Oh, no! They’re NEVER obvious! That’s the genius of them when it comes to this.
No, they find find ways to subtly flatter you without in the least appearing to do so. Little admiring glances, brief mentions of your hair, your scarf, your purse, your outfit…all very subtle.
Then they pepper these near continuous flattering subtleties with WONDERFUL, seemingly spontaneous compliments. They WONDERFUL things to you. Not gushing, again, nothing obvious. Very matter of factly. In a kind of “Well, everyone knows this” way. ” Everyone” knows how terrific you are even thought they may not say it. And their compliments are never phoney sounding.
Look, take my word for it, they’re good at this. Really good.
And this is addicting.
I got love bombed.
i was never a whale or a celeb. I’m not an actress. I am not rich. I had and have a small business which is successful within limited parameters. Even in my own field I’m far from a well known name. Its a small business, I’ve been around for 3 decades, no one really knows who I am, I don’t have a big social media presence. I do ok, I’m secure. A small business was all I ever wanted.
But still, nobody that I was (and am) that didn’t stop them! OMG did they ever love bomb me!
And I liked it. I got used ot it.
After a while I began to feel that being part of this group, that being in my org was the only way my qualities would be recognized and appreciated. (You have permission to laugh now, Peggy, because I am 🙂 )
To continue:
Now, if they love-bombed Nobody Me with such subtlety, skill, dexterity and persistence, can you IMAGINE how Nancy Cartwright with her fame and millions etc gets love-bombed? And their other celebs and wealthy whales?
And by the way, maybe they used subtlety on me because I would have been suspicious of overt flattery., maybe they sensed that in my case and fine tuned their LBs to resonate with me.
Other people may adore overt, obvious, over the top compliments and flattery, right?
Well, whatever works!
And they’re good at ti and I can attest that it is addicting.
Sometimes I’d look forward to going into the org just because of this.
One day they’ll realize how they’ve been bullshitted.
In my case, once I really got how full of crap they were and had always been, once I realized that they really didn’t like me or admire me but were just playing me all along, I had a strong enough sense of myself as a decent person to be able to have a good laugh – at myself for falling for it, and at them too, for being phonies. I was not that fragile emotionally, or maybe it was because the truth, once I get it, is and has always been a wonderful catharsis for me. The truth really is very freeing, for me. Once I know what really IS, I can gear myself up to confront it, after which its almost never a big deal.
A bit harsh. We all live in bubbles to some extent. We choose what we want to know and what level of “truth” we are content with. We choose whether to understand where are tax dollars go, whether to engage in politics and to what capacity. We choose whether to look beyond the headlines, to learn other sides to a debate, to dig deeper and uncover seemingly hidden truths.
We choose whether to wade into the dark, murky underworld of geopolitics, government corruption, intelligence agencies, corporate piggery, tax havens, uranium, oil reserves, gas pipelines, and war.
Many, if not most people choose not to. Even in an age of whistleblowers and wikileaks. Many are quite content to live their lives in blissful ignorance. Many others just don’t care. Should we judge them for not looking further at subjects they clearly have little interest in?
It is arguably true that the large majority of scientologists who leave do so after being wronged by the church – from having suffered an abuse, injustice, shitty service or personal trauma. It’s only then do they pay more attention. Should we shame them for not leaving sooner? For not caring about those who suffered before them?
You allow your government to spy on populations, meddle with foreign elections, arm terrorists and murder millions of innocent men, women and children in the middle east – simply by paying your taxes. How will you make amends for such unimaginable selfishness?
Cognitive dissonance is by no means unique to scientologists.
It’s easy to judge others for not knowing what you know. Or for turning a blind eye once they do. We all make choices, priorities; we all have our limits. Not everyone cares as much as you do.
But you can speak, you can educate, and maybe one day they will look your way and decide to dig a little deeper. Sooner, perhaps, if you show a little compassion.
Harsh, maybe so, but I do have compassion for the people physically, emotionally, economically harmed. Those still in and live under harsh conditions and under the mind control of the cult, and those who escaped and putting their life back in order. The MEGA donors are helping to finance an abusive, corrupt, despicable business/cult.
David Miscavige has the Mark of Hubbard on him. He doesn’t believe or care about saving the planet. Just like his mentor he cares about loading his own coffers with more money and living the high life.
History shows that that kind of mentality generally crashes, and I hope history repeats itself in this case.
At the end of the day my opinion doesn’t mean squat. I just want to let those here to know that I do care about what they went through and wish them a good life out in the free world. That’s not saying it will all be easy, but it’s all worth it.
Wow Mike
Great post today
Awesome show last night
I hope you and Leah aire the St Louis Shenanigans with the Ideal Real Estate Scam
On A&E. It is unbelievable.
There was an Ideal Org episode on Season 3. It’s a good one!
Ha Ha, that overhead architectural drawing shows cars in the parking lot!
What fantasyland do these people live in?
I am not sure, but the background soundtrack is composed entirely of crickets chirping.
Chad Lane, thy name is scam.
“the proverbial light at the end of the tunnel would soon rush from an indiscernible pinprick in the distance to the burning fire of imminent completion.”
Wow, just wow? Is that some Sherman-speak?
Block That Metaphor!
Edited for accuracy:
“…burning fire of imminent destruction.”
“burning fire of imminent kerSPLAT! (It’s a train coming at them called “Aftermath”.
I agree, that metaphor was WAY too tortured and deserved to be put out of its misery.
I was in the EPF during the time when you had to do product 0, 1, and 2. Took a year or so to get off. I got off by being held prisoner after not wanting to do the RPF’s, RPF’s, RPF. (That’s right, 3 of them). Long story. Anyway, I can vouch for the fact that you do not get any proper tools for doing…anything!. I worked on the complex when it first was being renovated (Big Blue). Dangerous man, I almost lost a finger. It’s a bullshit setup. And although there are some good things that can occur in Scientology, my advice is to stay away. The bad outweighs the good by a long shot. It’s in their DNA, (policy).
It was part of the lure and appeal of Scn that you could engage in a self improvement, self awareness and even spiritual improvement practice which was the presentation given on the lower bridge without following some stinky old belief religion. Little did you know that when you got to Elron’s Wall of Fire you’d be following the the words of a prophet stating his “research and discoveries” and visions of the distant past. Sure, a lot of it was expressed in his books but that wasn’t forced on you and it it could be put in the category of who knows, maybe.
Richard, I think you’re largely right about the lure of self-improvement, etc. But I was also going to say, the lure of things like exteriorization and OT powers as well was what got some in, or kept them in – and today’s Regraded Being, with its reference to “theta abilities,” and exteriorization and what, in new age terms, would be called astral projection (out-of-body travel around the universe), is a reminder of that.
“Astral projection,” by the way, is just another of those ideas that actually goes back to the era of the Spiritualist and New Thought movements of the late 19th century – also known for the Theosophy of Madame Blatavsky. Google ngram viewer shows that it had an uptick in use in the late 1930s – around the time the time Edgar Cayce and his hypnotic trance “readings,” “prophecies” and supposed travel to other realms, were becoming popular – and then again after the war, with a typical big jump in the late 1960s and into the mid 1970s.
Looking back, I think it was the atmosphere of self-exploration and spiritual improvement that made the experience in the orgs and missions what it was, back in Scientology’s heyday. But I think it was that the environment and its lures happened to attracted a certain type of people and be a catalyst for certain types of activities, and had less to do with the content of the tech or the nature of the organization – both of which actually turned out to actually be impediments in their ways.
“. . . with a typical big jump in the late 1960s and into the mid 1970s.”
Yep. It was the Dawning of the Age of Aquarius with many people joining in from the anti-war, anti-establishment and psychedelic “revolutions”. Elron wasn’t yet maintaining dictatorial control over all of the orgs and missions even with all of his internal control mechanisms already built into the subject.
I think astral planing was accomplished by maintaining a silver string attached to your body while tooling around the cosmos. Mr. Hubbard tool it a step further and said that no silver string was necessary. That sounds like a good way to get “Lost in Space”. (joke)
There was no shortage of “possibilities” presented.
It was both a dawn, and a boom-bust phenomenon.
The jump in use of the term “astral projection” leveled off and held steady for decades, presumably because of continued interest in what could generally be termed the “new age.”
However, prevalence of the term “scientology” spiked from 1967 to 1974, but then took a precipitous drop until about 1982, when it leveled off at about about a third of its peak – and only a bit more than double what it had been in the 1950s – and then continued on more or less at the reduced level through the end of the century. That basically follows the trajectory of the rise and fall of the baby boom youth movement, and I think illustrates the backdrop against which the orgs and missions were struggling over a shrinking pie, heading for an inevitable reckoning with reality – and we know how that turned out.
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=scientology&year_start=1950&year_end=2018&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cscientology%3B%2Cc0
The Scn Grade Chart which was briefly shown on the Aftermath episode had nothing “suspicious” on it from the viewpoint of a newbie in Scn. The guy on the episode was curious or interested and coughed up 35 grand for the “Clear Package” which was something new to me. In the 1970’s there was an “OT Package” which cost $3,500. I’m still looking for a current publication of the “Classification and Gradation Chart”.
Flew into St. Louis saw the crazed ED
Didn’t get to bed last night
When I got the comm ev I was on my knees
Man it was a dreadful sight
I’m back with a thousand KRs
You don’t know how lucky you are boy
Back with a thousand KRs (Yeah)
Been away too long I had to get sec checked
How I wish that I were home
Somehow get the feeling I’m a hopeless case
I think somebody tapped my phone
I’m back with a thousand KRs
You don’t know how lucky you are boy
Back with a thousand KRs (Yeah)
Well the IAS really knocked me out
They bled me high and dry
The MAA just assigned me doubt
She told me that I’ve got big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big crimes!
They’ve got all my secrets that they keep on file
I feel I’m on some prison farm
All I hear are angry voices ringing out
No one here is kind or warm
I’m back with a thousand KRs
You don’t know how lucky you are boy
Back with a thousand
Back with a thousand
Back with a thousand KRs (Yeah)
Good one Scribe! ☺
Mike,
I just viewed last night’s excellent Aftermath episode. As a “never-in” I think many people might have found it confusing that Carol Nyburg had limited financial resources when she left Scientology. If she was making commissions on all that income she brought in, she would have made a nice living. Are there differences between what the Sea Org registrars make and what non-SO registrars make? How does that all work?
Thanks!
I don’t believe Carol Nyburg made commissions on the money she regged. She was a Sea Org member.
I was wondering about that as well. I can’t imagine having to do that job. But I really can’t imagine it without commission. I wonder how much she did make for enduring that kind of pressure and applying it to others. Aaaaagh!
Hy Levy goes over how the SO registrars make money in his segment of The Truth R/D by St Pete Times. Registrars made more money than most at the org and if their stats were up made monetary bonuses and stuff, which the other staff didn’t. Hy made enough money to buy his wife nice jewelry and other things.
News of the relationship between Scientology and the Nation of Islam has reached France. The story is based on the Scientology and the Aftermath episode on the Nation of Islam.
Mizane: Nation of Islam et Eglise de Scientologie : une liaison dangereuse
http://www.mizane.info/nation-of-islam-et-eglise-de-scientologie-une-liaison-dangereuse/
Google translation: Nation of Islam and Church of Scientology: a dangerous connection
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.mizane.info/nation-of-islam-et-eglise-de-scientologie-une-liaison-dangereuse/
Great accounting of the St. Louis debacle.
The other interesting detail an insider had reported, was that recently several key public members of the org had decided that the St. Louis staff were suppressive, and had moved to Clearwater (perhaps out of the frying pan and into the fire, as many who go there seem to burn out and leave). Despite what might seem like the culmination of over a decade of hype, there’s a lot of typical ambiguity and likely weasel-wording in the newer PR piece, and so it’s not at all clear just how close they are to their fundraising goals – or not. There still aren’t typical final signs such as prominent outside “whales” being brought in to help complete the campaign.
From reports, it sounds like all the remaining small and failing orgs (SFOs) are being shown the same sorts of luminous architectural renderings and told the same thing – in many cases, like St. Louis, going on a decade now – that they’re on the verge of getting their “ideal” facility, if they just keep giving more money. And I’m not sure St. Louis really has the wherewithal to do whatever remains to be done to finish the project before the whole campaign starts to falter, particularly since, as has happened in Boston, they may be stuck for years trying to sell the deteriorating old white elephant property they had mistakenly bought, before they can proceed with work.
According to reports just the other day, Kansas City has put up a big Scientology sign on top of the old building they’re working on renovating, and indeed appear on track to open an “ideal” facility in the coming year. That’s actually a bit backwards in terms of demographic priorities, as Kansas City is part of the 30th largest metro area in the US, while St. Louis is 21st, though it’s not doing as well economically – but surprisingly, Missouri really does have two of the largest cities in the Midwest West of the Mississippi (Minneapolis-St. Paul is 16th in the US, rounding out the only 3 in the top 50).
Also, to verify Scientology claims or implications, particularly since I’d seen no reports of the org going through the necessary public process, I checked in the records for University City, MO, where the org is actually located, and found that they did indeed receiving planning approval for their addition:
Plan Commission:
http://apps.ucitymo.org/PublicPortal/Search.aspx
July 25, 2018 meeting minutes:
http://apps.ucitymo.org/PublicPortal/0/edoc/157166/2018-09-24%20Regular.pdf
City Council meeting September 24 agenda:
http://www.ucitymo.org/DocumentCenter/View/13225/2018-09-24-Council-Agenda
meeting minutes:
http://apps.ucitymo.org/PublicPortal/0/edoc/157166/2018-09-24%20Regular.pdf
What a giant clusterfuck. What a bunch of idiots.
The cult can’t sell auditing and training anymore because they can’t deliver auditing and training. Delivering auditing and training – heavens, that’s WAY too much work!
On the other hand, the cult MUST have money, lots of it
What to do? Ah, the Ideal M’org Program. Perfect solution for keeping the money coming in AND the cult’s excuse for not making Clears and training auditors…because they need THIS first. . this kind of building.
And the stupid Still Ins ( UTRs excepted from this pejorative ) the dumbass Still Ins. have fallen and continue to fall for this ridiculous, outrageously obvious scam, this Ideal M’Org, having-to-have-before-we-can-do CRAP. It never ceases to blow my mind how incredibly stupid these still ins are.
Never MIND that no new people are coming into the orgs already HAVE gone Ideal, the orgs that DO have the correct size buildings and furnishings. THOSE orgs are empty TOO. No, never mind that inconvenient fact.
Yep, the reason that people aren’t FLOODING into Scientology is because of the BUILDINGS.
Amazing.
Is there a WHY FINDER in the building? Please report to David’s Ideal Org Desk right now!
Jim, they don’t deliver the Data Series anymore.
Situation analysis? Why finding? Comparing Ideal Scenes to Existing Scenes? Spotting OUTPOINTS?
Slit your throat, Miscavige!
No way they’re gonna teach anyone THAT.
The Data Series data got me OUT of the cult, btw.
Not that that was my intention at the time. But it was a fabulous course that I regged MYSELF for, and it helped me a lot in ways that I really, really needed help.
At the time I fully intended to be IN for life, to go ALL the way up the Bridge, be auditor trained to Class VI, etc. etc.
But, learning to spot outpoints and pluspoints, learning how to observe and analyze data, spotting what was fact and what was opinion – marvelous. Loved it.
WAY before I started reading the internet I started spotting outpoints in the Ideal M’org program.
One day I’ll write it all up, with a Success Story thanking LRH and COB and the staff at my former org for delivering the course that got me out of their cult :).
I think the fundamental problem is that there’s now just little demand for auditing and training, unlike back in Scientology’s heyday in the 1960s and even into the 1980s.
Also, I think the dirty secret is that when auditing as Hubbard designed it is delivered on a large scale, and to a population that hasn’t been carefully vetted and winnowed down under very controlled conditions, a significant number of adverse reactions occur, such as the psychosis that Scientology calls PTS Type III. Lisa McPherson and a couple of other very unfortunate cases of that, along with hundreds if not thousands of less serious ones that were swept under the rug, seem to me to have lead to Scientology really cracking down on the delivery of auditing and processing. I suspect that Hubbard realized that what he was doing in order to try to create breakthroughs for some would just break others, considering that acceptable in his cynical calculus, and probably expecting that he could just get away with it – but it’s now yet another problem that has come to haunt Miscavige, and that he has limited ability to deal with other than to just tighten the screws.
The independent movement, including the Ron’s Orgs in Europe, seem to me to be the reality check – they’re not really doing any better, in spite of greater freedom and fewer constraints. I don’t know how they handle the problem of adverse reactions, such as PTS Type III, except that they operate on such a small and individualized scale that they may be able to better manage the problem, including limiting more dangerous applications.
And to give an idea of the extent of the underlying problems with auditing and processing, here’s a topic over at ESMB about psychotic episodes in Scientology, that has overflowed into a second thread:
How many people went type III (ie. had a Psychotic Break) in your org?
http://www.forum.exscn.net/threads/how-many-people-went-type-iii-ie-had-a-psychotic-break-in-your-org.38005/
Part 2 -How many people went Type III (ie. had a Psychotic Break) in your org?
http://www.forum.exscn.net/threads/part-2-how-many-people-went-type-iii-ie-had-a-psychotic-break-in-your-org.43120/
” I think the fundamental problem is that there’s now just little demand for auditing and training, unlike back in Scientology’s heyday in the 1960s and even into the 1980s.”
Yea but don’t forget PM, that they make up for it with the outsized demand for ‘Paid Up Sec Checking’. It’s the new rage!!!
Sec checking has become sex checking. Nothing like spending 25 hours on a couple masturbation incidents to make you appreciate Dave’s genius.
25 hrs is nothing! I knew a Scn guy who spent his whole NOTS money on account on one question on the Sex Check before it, about 75 hrs handling masturbating to internet porn. The poor guy was heartbroken that the money for NOTS it had taken him 20 years to save, was pissed away in a Sec Check invading his privacy about masturbation. I told him to just tell them that to him it is NOT an overt and he refuses to run something that isn’t an overt and doesn’t go against his own mores. That’s what I did. And the tech was behind me on this. I had references from the Levels and Sec Checking tapes and references where Ron says to sec check against the pc’s mores and no one else’s. Of course the church will respond with, “But it read on the meter so it must be charged.” To that I reply, there is such a thing as reading on Protest or False and “did anyone say you had an overt on …. when you didn’t?” or other similar wording.
Just when I thought it couldn’t get any worse.
I think the ESMB thread was originally one thread. IIRC Emma (board admin) cut it in two pieces when ESMB was converted from vBulletin to Xenforo softwarefor performance reasons.
I think it’s worth repeating a dictionary definition here.
dissociation – 3. psychology a) a split in the conscious process in which a group of mental activities breaks away from the main stream of consciousness and functions as a separate unit, as if belonging to another person b) the abnormal separation of related ideas, thought or emotions.
Webster’s New World College Dictionary – Fourth Edition
The acceptance of attached entities called Body Thetans in scientology as factual reality could cause mental instability.
Richard, thanks for that. I went looking for a psychology-specific definition, and found this, with some interesting implications given Hubbard’s background in hypnosis and its influence in his development of Dianetics and Scientology:
“Dissociation
Dissociation is a split in the mind in which there can be two independent streams of consciousness occurring at the same time, allowing some thoughts and behaviors to occur simultaneously with others. According to some, dissociation is the foundation of hypnosis – the hypnotized person is able to maintain control of certain thoughts and behaviors, while others are being influenced by the hypnotist.” https://www.alleydog.com/glossary/definition.php?term=Dissociation
Wikipedia suggests it’s a step on the way to psychosis – so it would then not be surprising, that some go too far and end up “PTS Type III”:
“In psychology, dissociation is any of a wide array of experiences from mild detachment from immediate surroundings to more severe detachment from physical and emotional experiences. The major characteristic of all dissociative phenomena involves a detachment from reality, rather than a loss of reality as in psychosis.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociation_(psychology)
I find that perspective extremely interesting, and think it does get the sort of dangers I was referring to, that Hubbard, partly by resorting to potentially powerful but risky hypnotic or suggestive techniques, tried to get people into dissociative states to achieve perceived benefits or abilities, with the inevitable result that some go over the edge and have psychotic episodes or breakdowns.
Finally, here’s the APA definition – not detailed enough to be very useful, unfortunately:
“dissociation
n.
1. a defense mechanism in which conflicting impulses are kept apart or threatening ideas and feelings are separated from the rest of the psyche. See compartmentalization.
2. in research, a method used to differentiate processes, components, or variables. For instance, it might involve discovering a variable that influences short-term memory but not long-term memory. See double dissociation.” https://dictionary.apa.org/dissociation
This makes me so nauseous. This cult is like a phone scam that never gets caught….yet, unlike phone scam, we know exactly where and who they are. And, the really sad thing about it is…the cult has all the records/documentation needed to get themselves buried. Yet….still nothing… Despicable.
Reminds me of a song and a movie:
“You came a long way from St. Louis, but baby, you’ve still got a long way to go.”
The Joker: “All you care about is money. This town deserves a better class of criminal.”
Wow, I did not realize it was that easy. So I just have to contact everyone I know and tell them I’ve bought some oceanfront property in Arizona and I need each of them and all of their friends to donate $100K per person to spruce it up nicely and we can all go there, not sure how much it will cost, you know, what with the whole scorpion abatement thing and all. I’ll keep the constantly moving target updated for you on an as-needed basis.
After I collect millions and millions of dollars, I tell them I was wrong, we didn’t really need the oceanfront property in Arizona, now we just need to fix our summer house in Wyoming, give me more money.
Who wouldn’t want to contribute to that? Who would even think of asking where all the millions and millions went for the oceanfront property in Arizona.
Well, besides anyone sane.
Like a “time share”…BUT each time you pass away & enter a “new life”….you have to BUY IT AGAIN.
Oh that sounds like a great idea. For only $500,000 down, and $50,000 per month I will let you in on my oceanfront property in Arizona timeshare. Be sure to not mention it in your will but you can come back any time after you turn 21 next lifetime.
[by Spring]”restoration should be complete on the ornate auditorium of the German House””
I saw that and instantly ‘saw’ SO crew standing atop the tallest ladders they could get, laboriously hand-cleaning the auditorium’s ceiling, like we did in CW’s ‘Bank building’. I went to step back and see where next to scrub and there wasn’t a ladder there. When I explained to Fred Hare that it’d be a smart idea to rig up safety harnesses, all I got was the dirtiest room in the building to clean up solo. I didn’t so much mind the work, but thought a death ‘might’ cause a bit of a PR flap.OSHA would have had a field day had they seen the conditions. I’m astounded that I haven’t heard of an EPFer making a dent in the sidewalk around the FH or Big Blue as they painted the outside walls. AND whose idea was it to paint PAC that gaudy shade anyway? Each picture shown of that monstrosity with scientology pasted across the top is another tribute to their tastelessness.**U-G-L-Y-Y**!
the complex “blue” was LRH’s idea. The LRH advices for the motif of the complex was to paint all those various colors that the complex offices/rooms/exterior all were originally painted. LRH, again.
It all goes back to source.
The Bank building, lobby, where all the Apollo files were originally dumped, that lobby has gone through so many building uses over the decades.
I came along Dec 1975, and nearing Xmas that year, we TTCers had to white glove the lobby and the files, since it was hoped or wished that LRH would come go upstairs to the CB (Clearwater Building) lobby as directly upstairs were is “LRH Pers Office” offices. Which was thought he might wish to swing by.
Remember how CF ended up in the CB big bank vault? What was your post then?
Scientology’s normal state of operations is alive and well I see. All in the name of religion of course. (Big bucks in these “spiritual enterprises” hey?) All the while whistling to: “I need a fix ’cause I’m going down. Down to the bits that I left uptown I need a fix cause I’m going down. Mother Superior jumped the gun, Mother Superior jumped the gun… Happiness (is a warm gun) Bang Bang Shoot Shoot…
Yet another example that scientology lies, must lie, can’t not lie, all in the service of extracting money for the benefit of the few (one) at the top of the hierarchy. IF he even tried to deliver on his promises, I wouldn’t be so upset, but Dwarfenführer is doing his best to make sure that scientology can not deliver services, not even the drastically crippled ones he’s created recently. I do believe the only EP students and PCs CAN reach these days is *FINISHED*, FINALLY FINISHED! and then they have to hold that thought for a half hour as the examiner waits for the needle to finally make that third or 4th swing to complete the redefinition of F/N.
The language is hilarious. Scientology is nothing more than a cult of awful infomercials. “trajectory…went ballistic”, “support…that no one could have possibly expected”, “like magic”, “highest-ever number of individual donors”, “turning up the volume to the next level”, “launched itself into the stratosphere”…
Mike, I watched last night’s edition of the Aftermath, and as usual, was Appalled at the recounting of the atrocities leveled by $. But, may I tell you what caused me More revulsion than Ever about last night’s session? It was the fact, that EVEN AFTER 25 YEARS, THE IRS IS HOUNDING AN INDIVIDUAL (who is probably making minimum wage) FOR UNPAID TAXES ON AN ANNUITY, WHILE STILL GRANTING TAX EXEMPT STATUS TO A CRIMINAL ORGANIZATION!
And since you mentioned it, I have to say that Season 3 is my “favorite.” If one can use such a positive term for such a horrible and destructive church. It seems to me that the first two seasons were individual stories with a theme for the season – Season One was Disconnection and Season Two had to do with abuses and cover-ups per policies of this church. But peppered into personal stories one might hear a sentence about being pummeled for money or another might be a fear of losing a loved one, a job or a predictable life.
This Season seems to be the fine sand poured into a container of pebbles, the individual stories. It’s filling the jar with a complete picture that answer questions such as, “Why did you get in?” “Why did you stay in?” or “Why did you give the money?” as well as the question, “What made you break?” If anybody asks me these questions again, I might just tell them, “Go watch Season 1, 2 and 3 of Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath.”
I agree with your sentiment…and Mary’s. The first 2 seasons were some of the most horrific stories of abuse I have ever encountered in terms of a cult. The cult was bent over and we saw their plumbers crack (no offense to plumbers)…but season 3 yanks the pants down to the ankles for the entire view of this asshole run cult. And our government and its leaders have enabled this cesspool of an organization to exist and continues by further abusing this cult’s victims. There is a special place in hell…
Yes Season 3 has been great for what it is exposing. I hope the IRS learns from it and realizes the church has been in violation of the rules it promised the IRS of giving repayments to people who ask for it. Ha, not only do they NOT give money back, but they put it in writing in a letter to that couple who asked for repayment of funds not already used for courses or auditing. There is the proof for the IRS that the church is violating the church status exemption right there. And if the iRS demanded the sale of property to pay back taxes, even after the lawyers took their cut, the IRS would make a LOT of money. So maybe we need to remind the IRS of what’s in it for them to look into the cult. A lot of money is what’s in it for them.
I have a great idea. Have a team of time lapse camera specialists go and shoot many orgs to record the number of cars and people who enter and leave these Idle Morgue compounds during what should be their busiest time of the week. Then show this in an edited piece on your show and on Youtube.
Nothing would illustrate the point better that nothing is happening at these empty orgs that are doing nothing, let alone clearing the planet and instead vampirically clearing people’s bank accounts.
Peterblood71, no time-lapse work is necessary as it wouldn’t show any change from a single smartphone pic taken any time in the afternoon: No one home.
That would be the point of doing it of course. To show the embarrassing inactivity.
I think the Aftermath episode on Ideal Orgs did that.
I don’t remember seeing it. A dawn to dusk time lapse would be “ideal.”
It’s against Missouri law to raise funds for one purpose, e.g., restoring German House, then use moneys collected for another purpose, e.g., turning the existing org “Ideal”. Any ex’s who donated to the restoration project that don’t like their money being used elsewhere should contact the Missouri Attorney General’s office.
Mike,
A fantastic follow through to last night’s episode. My heart goes out to Mark and Jennifer. IMO their curiosity should not have ended so badly. It has to be illegal to scam people in the ways that this cult acts. OH! RIGHT! They have 3 inches of signed documents waiving all legal rights of their ‘marks’; AND whine behind religious persecution.
KARMA cannot come soon enough to this cult. But come it will.
According to their rendering the new addition will be built on what is now their parking lot. The current parking lot has a capacity of about 80 cars. Several Sunday’s back I drove by during their “church service” time and I counted 23 cars. There will be very limited parking if and when this addition is completed. Unlike some larger Orgs there are no cameras or security guards. I have never seen anyone walking into the building. I assume that there are some staff that live in the building. I wonder what the conditions are inside the building? The exterior and parking lot are in need of some repairs. To think that $ci is wanting to expand St Louis into an ideal org is crazy when you consider that there are probably less than 50 members in the St Louis area.
Gordon, 23 cars at ONCE!? that’s straight up and vertical expansion right there. Most orgs have none but the staff’s cars, perhaps the idle yellow VM van, dirty from sitting out, unused.
Jere, I think it’s like the Valley Org in that the crew are living there. Thus their autos.
Mike, this is not clear to me. Are you saying they bought the German House and then abandoned it to build an extension to their current org location?
Yes
In St. Louis, as elsewhere in the scientology, there is “clearing at correct orders of magnitude.” This correct order of magnitude = ZERO. Why? There is no such thing as a ‘clear’. And there is certainly no such thing a a ‘clear’ as Hubbard described it over the years starting with his blovations in DMSMH in 1950. All these years later there still hasn’t be a ‘clear’ produced and most certainly no ‘operating thetan’ produced. No matter how much the kool-aid swillers word clear and clay demo DMSMH the cult has yet to produce such a being using its foolproof ‘tech’. No matter how ideal a building is there will still be no ‘clear’ produced. This is the reality one has to wake up to in order to be free from the cult. It’s a bitter pill to swallow because one’s hopes and dreams of spiritual freedom as promised by the cult are dashed against the rocks of reality.
Good Gawd… I’m gonna hvae to mkae suer thta I hvae moer caffeni bfore I wirte thsee comnets nxet time or some clut will be recuritign me as a coypwirter.
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Awesome post Mike Rinder. Talk about a decade long circle jerk for St Louis $cientologists.
WOW! I see that they applied some type of DEBUG that told them they never needed to purchase the Ideal Org to begin with. That is a flunk Scientology!
What about the epic expansion? Why are they downsizing?
I mean – we know they are shrinking but what type of lies do the St Louis Scientologist tell themselves to keep Scientology Working for themselves?
11 years of bankrupting St Louis staff and field for a big empty building only to apply Scientology DEBUG finally to the problem and discovering they made a mistake??? WTF?? They should stay right where they are.
I looked the Ideal Org building up on City of St Louis website and they have paid over $600,000 in real estate taxes for the Ideal Org Scam.
I guess that is a small price to pay for David Miscavige when he is sitting on over $10,000,000 from his fraudulent fundraising scam.
According to our mole, fundraising for this renovation in St Louis is up to $17,000,000.
But wait a minute….
The 2010 article stated they only had $940,000 to go on the 65,000 sq.ft. dump.
They had already collected $4,000,000.
11 years later – they need $17,000,000 for 35,000 sq.ft.
Are these clubbed seals crazy?
Can’t they apply the study tech to their math and do a clay demo or something?
St Louis obviously has reached the state of clearly insane.
What keeps them in this state of unknowingness?
Scientology tech – that is what keeps them dumb ed down.
VWD David Miscavige. You have quite the tax exempt money laundering racket going on.
Just goes to show you how MIND CONTROL works. It’s in the tech.
It will be sad to watch these clubbed seals file bankruptcy and lose homes to foreclosure soon. The bricks will come tumbling down – they always do.
I wonder how many of them will leave and never see the light of day of any Ideal mORGue… like Bert Schippers.
Let’s guess WHO from St Louis may end up on our favorite show: Scientology; the Aftermath.
My guess – Leslie Brock.
She seems to be at the top of the food chain.
They will ask her to give up everything and she may reach a breaking point.
What truly amazes me is that no one has the testicular fortitude (ladies included) to stand up and say “wait a second….what happened to all the money raised for the German House building? Why are we being asked for more? Was the German House sold before asking us for more money? Where will the proceeds of the sale go? Will we be reimbursed?”
There must some Midwest push going on because there has been some movement on the Chicago Org (after sitting derelict for 10 years)
Fear not – we Midwesterners have far too much common sense for Scientology to make
any progress here
And in Chicago, our politicians may be as corrupt as COB.
I can’t wait for the Chicago opening! After all, the NOI headquarters are here so that will be a real humdinger of a show. There will be ‘dignitaires’ lined up to speak that day…..each one of them lining their pockets.
Chee – David Miscavige is following the Super Power Scam because it worked.
It is money laundering. These poor saps have been tricked.
The clubbed seals are duped on a gradient so they are being boiled alive but don’t know it.
The old frog in the cold kettle of water trick.
Every scam in Scientology is done on a gradient…. slowly with the Scientologists agreement …while they slip into levels of unconsciousness and unawareness never experienced by homo sap before….except in Jim Jones Cult and Charlie Manson’s cult.
That is what you call the HOMO NOVUS… the newly unaware they have been duped Scientologist
I heard from a commenter on another site, a former St. Louis public, that there were a few dozen (at most) public Scientologists in St. Louis, and that several of the bigger sheep had been sheared into bankruptcy over this ideal org scam.
I lived in another major city in the midwest for 30 years and never even knew it had an org until I found this site. Monumental impact indeed.
I live in still another major city in the midwest now and I drive by the org here every week at least once, and have lunch across the street often. I don’t think I have ever seen any public in there. The whole side of the building is glass, and in the evening you can see everything inside. Nothing but a few vest/straightjacket wearers standing around.
Scientology is totally dead between the coasts.
I drove by an Ideal Org in the Midwest this past summer by accident. I could feel the creepiness of the huge empty building, knowing that it the building’s rebirth as an org likely devastated many lives. I was happy to see it empty, though that lent to the creepiness somehow. It’s more like a monument to ruined lives.
Marcanon
I also got this newsletter from St Louis .Org that Mike posted here
What you can’t see is
The list of donors and the status
I had my friend, who has access to court records, look some of them up
He found many filed Bankruptcy , Foreclosures and Judgements and liens for unpaid taxes
A mole informed me that recently
Executive Directors and Humanitarians with Honors Matt and Amy Hanses & Chad and Stephanie Lane
And Civilization Builder Adam and Susan Heft
All purchased expensive homes nearby and have huge loans
This will be a disaster
Everyone gets hurt by Scientology
It is only a matter of time
“He found many filed Bankruptcy, Foreclosures and judgements, and liens for unpaid taxes.”
You know, this is Planet Earth. Stuff happens. People do sometimes get caught financially and have to file bankruptcy. Sometimes they get liens for unpaid taxes and sometimes they lose their homes to foreclosure. Whether from financial negligence or just bad luck like a severe illness or the bottom falling out of the housing market, stuff happens.
Here’s the difference between normal people and cult koolaid drinkers:
Normal people are not proud of this. They tend not to disclose this type of information about themselves.
On the other hand, when Scientologists don’t pay their bills because they’ve instead donated that money to the cult, this is their proof that they are “Big Beings.”
When they declare bankruptcy, they brag about it.
Unlike non-cult people who tend to be embarrasses or ashamed when they don’t meet their financial obligations, Scientologists are PROUD of running up bills and stiffing their creditors. So long as the cult gets the money they are praised and rewarded for being deadbeats and are quite proud of declaring bankruptcy and incurring tax liens.
Sick. So very sick and wrong.
Just when I think I’ve heard the worst from survivors of Cult of scientology, More is brought to light. After watching the episode last night, I feel so bad for all the people who have lost or are losing any money, let alone elderly that were scammed out of wages, vacation, sick,personal time,S.S.,etc,a real church let’s you donate as you can & want, it’s not mandatory. I was wondering since they won’t refund your money & they say your money will be there in your next lifetime for you, then why can’t people make some payment arrangements for their courses out of their finacial money in the next life time instead of going in debt beyond belief!!! I mean after all if scientology is the Savoir of all Mankind, & they know everything then they should know they can get paid in the next lifetime. Mike you & Leah keep up the Wonderful work your doing.
~Best Wishes & Blessings To You All~
I had the same thought Tracy! Lol. I’ll pay ya next life ?
Remember the hamburger man in the old comic strip? I”ll pay you tomorrow for a hamburger I ate today?
That would be “wimpy” from the old “Popeye” Cartoon…sadly with COS…it would be more like this “I will gladly pay you Tuesday for Rice & Beans today”…
Sadly that is close to the truth and very dad Ballet lady
Yes! Lol. Wasn’t it always I’ll pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today? ?
Yes, that was exactly it Ann……poor wimpy had a hamburger addiction & no money which sounds strangely familiar to those Sea Org members etc… & that young couple who gave all their money for what…ther husband to move along the bridge to nowhere.
Terrific idea,Tracey! In fact, the COS could charge increasingly higher interest rates depending on when the student will repay…in one lifetime or two, three, four. All that money coming due centuries from now could ensure Scientology’s future financial stability. And no one will have to be bankrupted out of the community in this lifetime. Makes perfect sense and they could use some good PR right now!
— Tracy: “a real church let’s you donate as you can & want, it’s not mandatory.” scientology is a multi-national nulti-level money-making organization, not a (dare I say it?) church. It could be one IF it had any intention of delivering on the grandiose promises made more than 60 years ago and since by a malignant narcissist who died lamenting that he’d failed. Ron failed at EVERYTHING he put his hand to. He was an awful student, NO sort of engineer, scientist or explorer. Didn’t even do particularly well as a black magic practitioner, and all his wives certainly knew he’d screwed them. from day one.
Why doesnt someone turn in scientology to the department of Labor. If they want to be a non profit they must follow the DOL labor guidelines. They are clearly not paying employees. They are not paying workers comp.so many things are wrong with this organization.
Lisa— “so many things are wrong with this organization.”
truer words have rarely been spoken.
As. nice as this would be, the “unpaid workers” are brainwashed and would claim they are volunteering their services. The last thing these bots care about is their personal rights.
Co$ is a church. The Dept of Labor has no jurisdiction over what church workers are paid.