Recently, some have expressed the view that Leah is incorrect in stating that a minimum of 2.5 hours per day of study is mandated of you in scientology. There have been various people who have commented on this “this is not my experience” and “there is no Hubbard writing that states this.”
Most of this is missing the point: whether you agree with the mandated 2.5 hours statement, scientology places enormous demands on its membership, far more than mainstream religions. It is the only organization calling itself a religion where there are services that you are expected to show up for on an exact daily schedule. If you don’t attend Mass you’re not going to hear from the “Course Admin” or “Ethics Officer” calling at all hours to find out why you were missing. It happens every single time you fail to appear for a scheduled daily course period in scientology. And those courses are paid for in advance, with a price list and “no payment, no service” as company policy.
Of course, individual experiences differ, but the fact of the matter is that there IS policy by Hubbard that mandates 3 hours per day at a minimum on course. And if you cannot subscribe to this standard schedule, you are supposed to PAY EXTRA. I would say a fair categorization of this policy is that a minimum of 2.5 hours of study is expected of you on scientology courses.
Some will argue that not everyone is always on course. That is of course true, often people just cannot afford to do sequential services in scientology. But is this demanded of everyone? Of course it is. If you are not on course or auditing you are constantly hounded by the org to “get at cause” and “get moving on the Bridge.” And nobody who has ever been near a scientology organization will argue with this fact. You may not always be at the org every day, but this is what they expect and demand of you.
Below is the policy on Course Schedules written by Hubbard. There are plenty of others I could also pull out about dilettantism and the dedication expected of a scientologist. But I don’t want to spend the time looking for them and scanning the documents!
Scientology demands participation, time and money wise, unlike any other organization calling itself a religion.
It’s an important distinction to be made. Let’s not get lost in trying to nitpick the exact words being used.
isn’t it just hilarious that the BC hasn’t been delivered since Nov 13?
GAT II ZAMMMMMO to the BC!
apparently, LRH delivered and approved a “non-standard” LRH tek in the BC, allowed it to be delivered until he crisped up,
and
contrary to “no delivery is worse than shitty delivery” (sic)
7.5 years of NO BC is better than any BC at all!
hahhahahahahahahahahhahahaahaha
they’re right
(This was in response to Bryon Eckert)
Wow! The ” Eight Criteria for Thought Reform” sounds a lot like some other religions I am aware of.
The one in particular was in a town I once lived in, & they still are in existence & are extremely popular, more so now from what I hear about all the “BAD THINGS” going on in the world. . The church grew so much they built a massive building & had to add on to it.
I had a ONCE close neighbor who got sucked into it, bringing along his wife & three kids. EVERYTHING & EVERY MOMENT of their life centered around this church group & adherence to their tenets of belief & I MEAN STRONG tenets.
The church “elders” basically had them cut off friends who did NOT belong to the church as “validated members”….they were in attendance in church 6 to 7 days a week. They were given “points” for friends they could suck in to joining the “congregation”, & given rewards for doing so.
The church doctrine was the MOST important thing in the world, anyone who made ANY comment about not agreeing with even the smallest tenet was more or less “ex-communicated or banished” for a period of time until they “saw the light & repented”. What THEY taught you was the 100% truth with NO doubt. To have any doubt was to challenge them & you’d suffer the consequences. It reminded me of the children of COS, same thing here, the children belonged to the congregation NOT their parents. Bible study began at age 2 & brainwashed to the hilt thereafter. They would QUIZ these kids to find out “what was going on at home”….any unapproved visits from “non believers”…”movies or TV show that are not approved”..”music or any books read that are unapproved”
These neighbors children USE to be friends with other kids in the neighborhood…then all were NOT welcome to their yard or to play with their children because “these other kids did not know Jesus”….& were not members of the same church. They did not want outsiders to feed unapproved information to the church members kids that would give them cause to doubt this religion.
The church had their own “in house lingo/jargon”…everyone was “guilty of a sin & had to confess that sin in front of the entire congregation”. Nightly Bible Study was mandatory. Giving $$ also mandatory even if it meant personal bills were not paid. Even jobs had to be approved to deter church members from being exposed to things the church didn’t approve….
“Certain people” would NEVER be accepted…gays, people of color…etc.
There were no vacations away from the church…the ONLY thing permissible was to go WITH a well controlled church member group who could monitor every second.
I could go on and on but why bother. I was invited to this church before it became an enormous congregation…& ONCE attended & that was ENOUGH for me. I was after services, pounced upon by more than a dozen members who tried to GET ME to “sign up”…common sense told me otherwise.
I can only imagine these neighbors were punished in some fashion for inviting me….
Balletlady – You are hereby absolved of the sin of getting your neighbors punished
Some years after I left scn I was friends with a young man and woman who were best friends with each other. They both got saved at the same time and after that the conversation always drifted to, “We like you, Richard, and we want you to be in Heaven with us.”
My mother was raised in the Russian Orthodox Church but her opinion was “God is where you find him” and she attended the local Methodist church. I guess you could say she had a rational attitude toward religion. She would drag my father along with her to church on the major Christian holidays to prove to the community that he wasn’t a heretic.
THANK YOU Richard….seriously thank You. I carried some of that guilt with me for years as these neighbors lived three houses down from us & my daughter was friends with their daughter (before WE were banished for being non believers). My daughter was broken hearted her then BFF rejected her (& us) as prior to their being sucked in, we were friends. I knew how passionate they were about that church, & we NEVER spoke again. They’d drive by our house & not even wave or stop to say hello. I was really happy we moved out of state a few years later as it was hurtful.
My parents were NOT at all religious…my mother Lutheran my father Catholic (non practicing for decades) & mom made us attend religious education…that is, once we were confirmed at 14/15 my brothers opted out entirely I have to admit my Mom coerced me into a church marriage….scheez. I did it to make her happy, my father could have cared less. My husband to this day a practicing Catholic married to a ‘non believing heathen, lol! Our kids are baptized Catholic & attending religious education…I told them “once you are 18 you can decide for yourself what you want to do…….they OPT OUT on religion as well.
I remained within the realm of the Lutheran Church til I was 18 & taught Sunday School. Then things changed…the church made “adjustments to the Lutheran Church/religion I had known for years. I did not like or agree with it so I left. I tried “other churches” but to this day..a big zero.
I am SPIRITUAL……..I am NOT as I said in any way religious…….it is what it is. I DID have the experience of the “religious education”…..I don’t see it as viable in many respects…..but that’s my personal option. If someone feels that need & connection I am happy for them.
For me, since childhood….my Spiritual connection with WHOMEVER has been very strong. ……OK so I am going to sound nuts here but since I was a child I just “knew things”…i.e…..I could predict certain things were going to happen etc. IF I said something people often thought “that will never happen, that’s nuts”…then it DID happen & you can guess the outcome…as in ” HOW did YOU know that??? It did & does creep people out, but it’s a “gift” I didn’t ask for or expect so what can I say?
I live my life with no regrets, helping others as often as I can. I am what I am & who I am, not going to be that person who attends church weekly to “look good in the eyes of the community & church”… but who won’t help anyone in time of need. It’s a personal choice so I can fully understand being “dragged to church” when one does it to make SOMEONE ELSE happy!
Got it Balletlady. Thanks for sharing.
I’ve witnessed and experienced a few things which could be called paranormal or supernatural so I’m not skeptical when someone says they have some innate exceptional ability.
I was being a bit facetious above but like most people I believe everyone has the right to their own religious beliefs. It’s often the organizational part of religion which turns people into fanatics.
I once got into a debate on a scn blog where someone was insisting that Hubbard always said scn was a religion and must be accepted as such. After some back and forth I admitted that when I was “in” scn I believed everyone should eventually “do” scn so in a sense it was my “faith” (belief). That was a good enough compromise for him and ended the debate – haha
Perfectly stated all around Richard. One sure thing to prevent arguments, never discuss religion or politics!!!.
I am NOT nor do I ever claim or say I am a psychic. Friends have asked me on rare occasion “what I see for them”. Of course I tell them I can’t predict that….I am not a soothsayer or psychic. IF something “comes to me” it’s automatic & I have no control over it.
As a 9 year old my family was outside having a BBQ, my Grandmother went to sit in a certain chair & I suddenly blurted out “Gram DO NOT sit in that chair”…..Well, she did anyway & the chair gave way yet dumping her gently on the patio blocks..the chair gave way “sideways” so she more or less simply slid off it.
Needless to say, She was quite angry at me & thought I had fooled with the chair to make it collapse under her. She was an averaged size person, so it was NOT her weight….we had had no previous problems with that chair yet something told me not to have anyone sit on it.
Yes, my husband goes to church every weekend either Saturday or Sunday, when he gets home I ask him “Did you get saved”…..he shakes his head at me….but he grew up within the bonds of the Catholic Church & A Catholic School Education….as much as I feel being somewhat brainwashed into the regalia of it all & that stuff. I always tease him that I’ve “got my marshmallows , hotdogs & a long fork ready just in case”….cause I don’t know which way I’m headed after death!
IF those in COS feel it is a religion so be it. As my once neighbor’s “new church” was started by a young man who was VERY magnetic & charismatic, kind of like Joel Osteen…HE departed the original church & HE STARTED this new rigid fundamentalist type church where his “demeanor” drew in well over two hundred people early on, & it continue to grow. That young man became VERY wealthy….need I say more!
Thank you friend for your feedback, I got a good deal of joy reading it!
WHILE. ON. SERVICE.
I started this conversation.
As above, there is abundant policy on scios putting in standard schedules etc This was not my point at all. I’m a trained sup among other things. Holy cow that wasn’t my point. 🙂 Not only do I know what the Minister’s course is, I’ve delivered it and studied it.
again:
WHILE. ON. SERVICE..
All you guys waving the 2.5 flag? Got it. 45 years ago, actually. M9ed it.
This is partially about audiences I think.
As a UTR I hear Leah’s take on this and I think, “that’s not true” and it makes her seem less credible “to scios”
I was looking at it as adding fuel to Scn’s dead agenting tactics. I was hearing this as a UTR, thinking of other UTRs listening.
Anyone with Class V org experience knows they’re not forced to be in the org every day or on course every day. Unless they have A PAID SERVICE. (and even then, getting them to START it can be a real pain)
At the major events, NYs, LRH Bday, May 9, etc.. we had 300 people many times.
meanwhile, the academy has 3 -9 on course at any given time.
as an ex staff, my point wasn’t a “fine point” it seemed a Major point! 🙂
Stats would have been wayyyyyy easier.
But I’m still stripping this shit off me, so maybe screw the few scios listening who crinkle their foreheads.
after all…. what keeps clanging in my head is, “never use lies in PR”
how fcked is that?
this shit is in deep.
aaand
I just realized, “while on service”
is also a cult term.
It means that you have paid for a service, been accepted as a student or PC, and you have “routed onto service”
You are now on the roll books of the academy or basic course supervisors, or you are on the PC Scheduling board or in the Box! (purif)
let the 2.5 begin
………
until then…. we’re still trying to reeeeel you in.
…….
“fully paid partially paid list” is a list of public as described.
There are fully paid people sitting in the field NOT coming in for their service. And yes, ethics and qual and chaplain and the cutest girl on staff … they’ll all be calling you to start.
The conversation or topic started because at the beginning of the Chris Shelton Part 1 podcast Leah stated, “Some people have heard this and maybe it didn’t sink in and some people don’t know it at all but when you’re in scientology as a parishioner you are forced to read scientology under extreme duress two and a half hours a day . . . ”
Everyone has their own memories about their scientology experience but that’s not an accurate statement for all scientologists past and present.
naww. You’re late to the party. I posted a comment on this … I figured it was a shared thing. it started a convo. This goes back to Ep. 1 of Aftermath. It was a question.
Laughter – Okay
In the comments section after the part 1 podcast you beat me to it on questioning Leah’s statement which I did. No big deal but it rather irked me that someone would insinuate that I was forced to do anything in scn. Must be an ego thing. haha 😇
I know, right?
I was suuuuuper trained really early. (IE: indoctinated/Blinded and Totally LRH. Scios can be wrong, LRH? Never)
Been staff in almost every freakin aspect of the cult.
It’s this little thing that’s been needling me since the beginning.
I love what Leah and Mike are doing and am indebted forever, so it’s been so hard to keep from bitching about this aspect. But I’ve got so manyyyyyy people stuck in the cult, ….. *shakes head … I just want them all out. <3
I am going to share one more link right now on Hypnosis in Scientology.
I have over a dozen blog posts that take this on at Mockingbird’s Nest blog on Scientology.
This thread is to go back to an idea that is a fundamental to understand what Dianetics and Scientology are and how they function.This comes up in auditing and training and in many other forms and aspects of all Hubbard doctrine.
https://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/01/basic-introduction-to-hypnosis-in.html
Terrific, thanks
Here is a link on what Scientology study tech actually is.
Thought Reform/Influence
Insidious Enslavement : Study Technology
In method 3 a student finishes reading a page, paragraph or sentence and KNOWS they understood what they read BUT they have “mu phenomena” (which are really mostly renamed symptoms of hypnosis or critical or independent thoughts about what is studied). The student then knows they must have “MUs” and so confuse their own mind! This contradiction opens up the door to a dirty trick Hubbard figured out. If you give a confused person an answer, even if it’s wrong, they can feel relieved as they can now direct their mind off the confusion and onto something else! This is a natural phenomena as people, often when confused, leave alone what’s confusing them and concentrate on something else with no resolution of the confusion, and yet feel better!
This masks that “study” in Scientology (and anywhere else study tech is used) is actually a kind of self hypnosis where the student puts themself into a progressive, deepening light semi-permanent trance that greatly deepens when returning to course or study, or even eventually when reading ANYTHING as how the person thinks about reading and language can change.
This depends on the sensation and effect from the cognitive dissonance caused in indoctrination by a variety of methods. Hubbard has thousands of contradictions in his doctrine. And confusing terms, unusual turns of phrases, new original terms – in particular making nouns of verbs to confuse the victim. These and other methods add up to make the dissonance which creates blankness, overwhelm, reelingness and anxiety and a desire to escape the dissonance as an intended result .
Their own mind can “run” the study tech on themself, especially if this is flanked and bolstered by the loaded language in Dianetics and Scientology; in and of itself designed to produce the same effect with another variation of a hypnotic technique.
I know this sounds outrageous and many will reflexively say “no, I got gains from study tech !” or “There really are words to learn!” Yes there are words to learn, but “MUs” as Hubbard defined them don’t exist and are just a clever misdirection, with the tiniest sliver of truth perverted to deceive, to hide the hypnotic regressed state he wanted you to “intake” Scientology and Dianetics while in.
I intend here to address and explain the Barriers to Study (BTS), the “tech” to handle them, and the accompanying phenomena (BTSP) and their true meaning and purpose. I will attempt to show how the BTS and BTSP are a form of coercive persuasion (mind control). I know this is an extreme assertion and will attempt to clearly lay out my case, bit by bit, and just ask that you PLEASE objectively LOOK at what I’m saying and see if it could be or is true.
From
https://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/01/insidious-enslavement-study-technology.html
The “barriers to study” were developed by two educators on the Saint Hill Special Briefing Course and presented to Hubbard who immediately claimed ownership as his own “research”. There could be counter arguments but that’s a different topic.
Richard, the original ‘mu’ was actually a complaint about Hubbard’s use of neologisms and re-defined terms leaving students with ‘misunderstood words.’ Educators Charles and Ava Berner suggested he provide the audience with something like a lexicon of the terms he was using that were either his creations, or being used in non-standard ways, so as not to leave the audience confused. Hubbard of course turned that around into something that laid blame on his followers for failing to understand, and which became an indoctrination tool as well.
I don’t know if that fully addresses the origins of BTS, but it’s a crucial early piece of the history.
Eva also later said in an interview that Hubbard didn’t actually come up with anything himself, it was all just the ideas of others around him. That may not be entirely the case, but she and her then-husband were at Saint Hill in the early days and were part of an inner circle that I think would have included people such as Ray Kemp, who like others is known to have contributed much more than he is generally credited with (and originally had credits, on things that his name has subsequently been removed from), so there’s a lot of truth to it.
Also, Hubbard failed to repay loans Kemp made to him, and accepted donations for the purchase of Saint Hill property and for some of his toys like a fancy car (if i recall correctly), so those were actually “earlier, similars” for the “pure donations without exchange” that Miscavige has honed to an art. Just as, if you dig deep, you find other sources for things that Hubbard claimed as his own ideas, so things that Miscavige gets blamed for, often turn out to have roots in what ‘source’ did if you look carefully at the history.
Here is a link to the blog archive by topic at Mockingbird’s Nest blog on Scientology.
There are over a dozen blog posts on the hypnotic techniques in Scientology and several others describe this regarding Scientology indoctrination.
http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2020/07/blog-archive-by-topic.html?m=0
Certainly, it is by Robert Jay Lifton, that’s the only thing that is vital to include, because unlike Hubbard, I want to give credit to the original source!
Chris Shelton actually interviewed the female member of the pair and she said that Hubbard altered the ideas they had and took them to different extremes.
Hubbard read and recommended the book Hypnotism Comes of Age.
I read that book and it describes the combination of hypnosis and psychoanalysts to create hypnoanalysis.
Hubbard simply took the plausible idea that the three factors of undefined terms, A lack of representation of a studied idea and a skipped step in instruction or a not fully understood step COULD exist and he transformed them by using his knowledge of hypnosis and the effects it creates to use the two subjects together to create his study tech.
I have broken down the techniques he used and many, many, many quotes both from Hubbard showing he fully understood that study tech is covert persuasion based on hypnosis and that if you examine the phenomena of the barriers to study and study tech techniques against actual material from the subject of hypnosis it is quite clear that it is hypnosis.
I have broken this down in extreme detail at Mockingbird’s Nest blog on Scientology.
Hubbard simply took failed hypnotic techniques and filed off the serial numbers and presented them as his own creation. He did this with Dianetics and used long failed techniques that were tried by others and found to have poor results and increase suggestibility and dependence in patients. This gave the practitioners too much power over the patients.
Hubbard repeated that over and over in Scientology. I recall Steven Hassan who has studied hypnosis and NLP saying Hubbard studied books on hypnosis from the twenties and Arnie Lerma pointed this out at his website with the words from Scientology auditing placed next to quotes from particular books to display the plagiaristic nature of Scientology. Similarly Jon Atack has written extensively on this with several superb articles and he laid it out in his Scientology Mythbusting series at the Underground Bunker.
It is hard for people to fathom that Hubbard took hundreds of ideas from hypnosis and found any method that either was hypnotic or could be combined with hypnosis covertly and presented these as something beneficial.
In some lectures which I quoted extensively at Mockingbird’s Nest blog on Scientology Hubbard admitted that Scientology is based on hypnosis and that it has the purpose of changing postulates (decisions, values, and beliefs) in the preclear.
I certainly invite everyone to examine the information that I present on hypnosis and Hubbard’s statements to see it for themselves.
Off topic comment.
Mike Rinder recently pointed out something that most people miss, even experts.
He pointed out that the E meter is used to convince members that the auditor knows what they are thinking, and that the meter is ALWAYS right! That is a powerful suggestion!
If the auditor says something must be true, you believe them!
This adds power to the already hypnotic techniques used in Scientology. These techniques include mimicry, repetition, repetition-with-variation, paradox (aka contradiction aka confusion), vivid imagery, inspiring awe, attention fixation, leading questions, overwhelm, authority indoctrination and more.
I think that future podcasts with Chris Shelton and Jon Atack discussing this would be great.
The technique Mike Rinder described in my mind is best broken down by cult expert Robert Jay Lifton in his eight criteria for thought reform. The eight criteria have helped literally thousands, probably tens of thousands, of people to realize how their group manipulated them via covert persuasion.
The almost magical power of these words is in the fact that they reframe the insidious influence of the cult techniques and explain how these methods fool and affect people.
I recommend everyone study them and if you want to understand cults, including Scientology learn them until you know them cold. Learn them until you can explain them to a ten year old with no references.
I am going to include an abridged version and a link to the longer version.
I am also going to post links to some posts on the techniques used in Scientology.
I think that one of the things that inhibits recovery from Scientology the most is the extensive indoctrination that is jam packed with contradictions. You have confusion increased by the never ending mountain of contradictions in Scientology. That is intentional. Hubbard wanted the confusion to overwhelm you, so the only thing you know is that he has the answers and you don’t. This is intended to increase suggestibility and dependence in you and authority and power for Hubbard.
Dr. Robert J. Lifton’s Eight Criteria for Thought Reform
Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.
Mystical Manipulation. There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes.
Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.
Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members’ “sins,” “attitudes,” and “faults” are discussed and exploited by the leaders.
Sacred Science. The group’s doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.
Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating cliches, which serve to alter members’ thought processes to conform to the group’s way of thinking.
Doctrine over person. Member’s personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.
Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group’s ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also. (Lifton, 1989)
From
https://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/06/dr-robert-j-liftons-criteria-for.html
Terrific comment and information. Thank you. I might reprint this as a post with your permission — at least steal the summary of Eight Criteria, as not everyone is going to read the comments.
Certainly, it is by Robert Jay Lifton, that’s the only thing that is vital to include, because unlike Hubbard, I want to give credit to the original source!
MB, you touch upon a point I think is essential – whether or not the e-meter at least functions crudely as a lie detector, much less anything else, what matters is that members believe that it does, and so are motivated to confess to their auditors and sec-checkers. Thus it works as an effective tool for a high control organization, regardless of technical and scientific issues.
I do think that the e-meter and other GSR meters are marginally effective – as are many other things in Dianetics or Scientology. That makes it an even more deviously powerful control tool for an extreme cult like Scientology.
I am not an expert on this but many, many people have explained that poor quality and construction have rendered the E meter highly unreliable and that it for example got rock slams and other phenomena based on cheap construction and not the mind of the preclear! This means people were labeled as SPs and in some cases punished, expelled or put on the RPF for no good reason!
Thank you so much.
This is spectacular.
I was in Scientology for twenty five years. I was on staff and a public and at times a student at ITO in LA and in the Excalibur building in New York City, both Sea Org orgs.
I can assure you that in Buffalo New York and everywhere else I was I was strongly encouraged to give Scientology between sixty and a hundred and twenty hours a week of my time. Whether I was a public or on staff this was true.
People are pressured and harassed endlessly to do more, give more, commit more to Scientology. Maybe the rich and famous are thanked, but everywhere I went everyone else was constantly harassed and not considered good enough for more than a moment, no matter how hard they worked, how much time they devoted to Scientology or how much money they gave.
Some rare isolated missions or orgs might have been different but that was my Scientology experience.
Very informative post. I hope you will come back and contribute more to this forum in the future.
Thanks very much.
As a Course Admin my first job after EVERY roll call was to see who was missing from the scheduled list and locate them. As a Course Supervisor my job was to get the roll book and the Course Admin together and give him/her any info on the missing students. It’s always been that way – in a mission, SO or org classroom or a NarCONon. Trust me, I’m a Professor of $cientology (or was before I’m sure they cancelled my certs)😁
The Scientology: Fair Game podcast with Leah Remini & Mike Rinder is on both Amazon Music and Audible for free.
https://www.amazon.com/Scientology-Fair-Game/dp/B08K5791ZL
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When I was training, I would refuse to start the next course after I finished one until I could get some time off. I would be urged to route on, but I knew that I would be trapped in the schedule demands. So I would tell them that I would be back in a day or two to route on, but I wanted to take some time off. I made sure this didn’t happen on Thursdays, because I knew that the pressure to continue without a break would be relentless. In hindsight, I should have taken a longer breaks between courses. Weeks or months, not days.
The last course I attempted to do was the PTS/SP course at the Old Pasadena org in 2004 paid for by my crazy ass boss, Catherine Tweed.
I got a letter from my scino chiropractor that said I had energy issues and I should be on a limited course schedule. I ended up going Saturday and Sunday afternoon for the 3 hour period each day. There was no special course room. One day, there was this random young male sea org member who sat at the course supervisor’s desk reading me the Riot Act in front of the whole course room to get on a standard course schedule and threatening to send me to ethics. The course supervisor stood in the background feeling sorry for me. I finally asked her to step in and adjudicate this matter. A consensus was made for me to finish one of the observation practical exercises I had skipped due to the hot weather. This day it was 90 degrees outside and I was refusing. The supervisor’s solution… taking me in her car to an air-conditioned fast food place to complete the practical… leaving no supervisor in the course room and I didn’t go to ethics.
BTW, I was never asked to pay more and I never saw this policy. I never heard anything of paying more for a non-standard schedule. So much for standard Tech and policy. PS never finished that damn course. Good riddance.
Right, George; all scientology’s “powers” were illusion and self-deception. ‘clear’ never was any great shakes, just a status symbol. the OT levels at best were silly exercises.
Leah was 100% correct. I remember in earlier days public were sent to the Chaplain or HCO for “handling the out ethics in their lives that prevented them from being on full-time study”. I also remember that policy being brought out and students having to cram it. Of course when orgs around the world stats started crashing all sorts of unusual & (strictly speaking) “off policy” schedules were tolerated. And OTs were the worst in my experience. I remember a whole bunch of them coming in only on Thursdays for 1 or 2 hours – the classic “stat push”.
The first time I ever took a course at Big Blue I committed the unforgivable sin of thinking it didn’t matter if I was a few minutes late coming back from break, I had to make an important phone call. I quickly found out the severity of that crime and it didn’t matter how urgent the phone call was.
The 2.5 hours per day, if I remember right, refers to staff study.
For Public courses there are references like the one above and the hours mandated are while you’re on the course. “Full time” has been redefined a few times.
I agree that there is policy on this but in practice, it was very seldom enforced and one could take long breaks between courses.
I was on a Foundation weekend schedule for a long time. Since I also worked a full time job during the week it meant that if I studied full time at the weekend I would scarcely ever get to see the sun. I negotiated a Saturday only weekend study schedule in order to make this manageable. When I finished a course, sometimes I would take a full year off before the next one or even longer. I never found if very hard to negotiate something that was workable for me.
To take a parallel from Roman Catholicism. This Church forbids the use of contraception and I am sure that the Pope and the rest of the leadership would demand that all Catholics observe this ban. However, it is obvious from both statistical and anecdotal evidence that most Catholics flout this rule., at least in First World countries.
Point is:
Just because the Pope issues an edict does not mean that most Catholics will obey it.
Just because Hubbard wrote a policy, it does not always mean that most Scientologists will follow it.
Since that was a 1990 issue, it was Dwarfenführer’s thoughts on the idea, and I doubt he ever really expected it to be followed in reality unless he was right there to intimidate the marks.
BTW, does the FleeceWinds have a day/Foundation split? IIRC, Flag when I was there sorta did. What amounted to ‘foundation’ hours was mostly staff studying the useless staff-statuses, Hats etc. Chuck, who was a Supervisor at that time can correct me.
This is Hubbard’s words entirely.
Cavalier, the policy doesn’t state one cannot take time off between courses. NOR does it state than one cannot have a special schedule for work, etc. Did you READ the policy???
REAL, Cavalier *might* be in my class: not having been in Davey’s little cult in 1990 when that policy was published. Something similar was is force in the ’70s when I was in NY, but it didn’t completely stop me from having a social life outside of scientology on the weekends. And when I finished one course, I didn’t necessarily immediately start on the next one. Of course when I finished the academy levels, I DID head off for ASHO pretty quickly, which took me out of NYC and off course pretty completely.
Jere, similar if not the exact same rules were in other PLs back from the 60’s and 70’s. I wasn’t course in 1990 or later either but minimum course schedules had been policy for a couple decades before that 1990 policy in line with Day & Foundation hours of operation.
The first line of today’s post reads:
“Recently, some have expressed the view that Leah is incorrect in stating that a minimum of 2.5 hours per day of study is mandated of you in scientology.”
This is what I was responding to.
if one takes time off between courses then one will not get this much study time in.
e.g. If one takes six months off then 5 hours per day would be required for the following 6 months in order to make up the time. I have never known of anyone making up time in this way.
The Policy referenced above states that a standard Foundation weekend policy is 8 hours on Saturday and 8 Hours on Sunday. I was doing 8 hours on Saturday only and so this was not a standard schedule.
I was put under a lot of pressure to change this on several occasions but always pushed back.
Cavalier. The 2.5 hours a study rule she is referring to is when you are taking a course. NOT a rule that one must be taking a course every day of their life.
Well, depends on your definition of rule. Every scientologist is expected to be on course every day in an ideal world. It doesn’t happen. But that doesn’t mean they don’t demand it or do everything in their power to make it happen…
Agreement, Cavalier.
When I worked and studied the Academy Levels & HSDC in NY about 45 years ago, I often was walking to or from the org in the dark, which was sometimes a little scary. Sometimes I took the subway, which was at least mostly well-lit. I don’t know HOW I got chances to do things on weekends. I probably just didn’t show up and blew off going to ‘ethics’, a guy I worked with during the work week. He understood since his berthing was a long distance away from work and the org, so he hardly had time to sleep, other than on the subway sometimes.
Even when I started a course at a Dianetics Group (below a Mission) was was shown this reference and required to be on a 7 pm – 10 pm course schedule. Same with the then Class IV orgs I was on course at. I don’t believe it is really possible to have been on courses and NOT have been referenced to this PL if you weren’t on a regular schedule. Well, perhaps a 1 in a 1,000 chance
This more than anything was the cause of my son no longer speaking to me. It was just formalised by me leaving the cult. He was the course supervisor, and I was on OT 7 and so considered myself above local org requirements. They used to call me to come on course, and just to end the conversation I would agree. One day when I was offering my son some fatherly advice he turned on me most vicious and informed me ‘everyone’ on staff at the org thought I was a ‘piece of shit’ that never kept my word. It shocked me to be spoken to like that by my son. I started to really dislike him, and when he finally officially disconnected from me it was quite a relief.
Wow! dr mac…. Brutal, but that’s scientology for you.
dr mac said, in part:”when he finally officially disconnected from me it was quite a relief.”
Ain’t that the truth? That’s just another aspect of how scientology is incompatible with anything in the real world; like family, real friends, reality, or truth.
“I started to really dislike him, and when he finally officially disconnected from me it was quite a relief.” Bravo dr mac. Bravo for trusting your instincts. “Everyone” on staff thought you were “a piece of shit.” Wow. He really disliked YOU. Good riddance to him and anyone who would say something like that to you.
Study is a terrible thing to be sure.
I would recommend no one read a book or study at anytime, especially any Scientology data.
We all know there is no technology available on Earth that could improve Mike and Leah in any way shape or form.
So why bother?
Let them carry on their hilarious rants.
I for one have a wonderful time reading the shite on this site (hey that rhymes) once every 6 months.
It NEVER changes LOL LOL
The best ack to your message is the sound of a loud fart. The smell in on it’s way via UPS
Just gotta love these hit and run trolls. Out of all that information, he comes away with the sarcastic bon mots that amounts to saying that Mike is denigrating serious studying (as if $ci was only thing worth studying) and that Mike and Leah (like many of us) are suppressive people beyond even the redemptive qualities of $ci.
And, C.A., how many scientologists are pursuing education other than the LRH shite. Oh right, nothing else is really important and many of the well educated people here have wasted their time with irrelevant knowledge of worldly subjects. And how many scientologists read expansively and utilize the library other than for the LRH shite.
But you are wrong about nothing changes. When you check in to fling your shite, $ci has shrunken and diminished more and more.
All that wasted money on the LRH shite and you are still an idiot.
Glen, 50 years ago, I TRIED to study at college and within scn for awhile. scn quickly established that it was FAR superior to a real education, so I fairly quickly dropped out of college. That’s one of the few disagreements I have had with my then sister-in-law who was the true-believer of the family. After getting kicked out by Flag, one of the joys of freedom was getting back to a college education that materially contributed to a better salary for 30+ years. I’m still trying to “unlearn” the useless policies of scientology.
Sadly, the counter-productive dreck is persistent.
“So why bother? Let them carry on their hilarious rants.”
Likewise. You could have used this opportunity to state your counter argument and make a case for it. Aside from the rather inane strawman, you chose not to bother – preferring to go on a rant of your own. So how are you any different than those you are criticising?
The issue is with the demands made by the organisation (and the penalties levied for non compliance). Come up from antagonism and make an actual argument. You cannot persuade people if you’re unwilling to engage.
I’d really like to hear your thoughts.
You must be a lonely person.
LmR opined:”You must be a lonely person.”
WHO is the lonely person? One of the great things of being tossed out of Flag was suddenly having many friends, some long-standing from pre-scn days, and many made newly. The only scn “friend” who contacted me after I returned to the real world was what I had thought was a girlfriend who called to see if I could start paying down the “freeloader debt” I had racked up in courses Flag required me to do. Of course, MY slaving 16 hours a day for those 5 years was worth nothing. Turns out that the courses they required were worthless, too. Though she had my # and address in CF, I never heard from her in the 40 subsequent years. Note to scn: If you have a non-scn address & # for me, I’m back here, again, same # I had to memorize when I was 8 and we went to 7-digit numbers, same address Mom & Dad had when they brought me home from the hospital.
Note: Thursday 2 PM has come and gone and no one from any scn org has contacted me for anything. Not even the Letter Reg I replied to last week for the Lulz
You make me think of a truly lonely soul (and who has realized it). Somebody laughing alone and hidden in a corner. I’m sorry for you.
“Admin”, it’s not like any course in scientology is worth anything except to other scientologists, sorta like a status symbol.
‘course, THESE days, “status” is all that scientology is, and that’s only slightly significant to those still in the group. In the real world where things have to work as advertised, any of scientology is useless. in particular, “study tech” is worse than useless as it makes good students less certain of what they’ve read, since any experienced (in scn) student can trip the smartest up by demanding a dictionary-perfect definition of an obscure word having nothing to do with the subject of that essay. Even though I now know that it’s bogus, I liberally use my computer’s one-click dictionary look-up OR fall down the rabbit holes of linked pages, wasting time on things I really didn’t want to know.
Hey “course admin”!
you’re (unintentionally, I’m sure) right. There’s NO workable ‘technology’ in scientology to be had, nothing that would actually help someone with average abilities.
scientology has been disabling the able for nearly 70 years, now.
You must have been so desperate to get that extra bean with your rice that you thought, I know, I’ll make a comment on Mike’s site which will be noticed by my supervisors and I will be rewarded with one, maybe even two, beans with my next meal.
In your…snort, snigger…mind you thought you were being funny and all you succeeded in doing was how vapid and childish you are (which seems to be a fixture for any $camologist who hit and run here).
Oh please, spare us.
No one’s buying it…
Course admin aka Marty Rathbun / OSA.. what’s the matter?
Stat’s down this week?
Awww.. there…there.
Just do your lower condition formulas, get your ethics in by attacking critics
and stop committing crimes every day ( by not spreading your hate of critics who expose Scientology).
If you can’t or won’t, it could be the HOLE for you OR Scientology ( David Miscavige ) may cut off that blood money pay check in exchange for harassing powerful critics of Scientology like Mike Rinder who are Doing Something About It
every.single.day.
My bet the latter is more scary and threatening for you cuz you can’t create anything for yourself. That is why you do what you do. You are non productive.
Scientology has disabled you fully and that is why you are a turncoat who takes money from an evil cult that destroys lives.
You must be beaming with pride.
Wow “Course Admin”, what lower condition are you working on and for what offense? Someday you might wake up and cringe remembering your post here.
Leah was right about the mandetory 2.5 hours of study each day. The Brainwashing in Scientology works best when Scientology gets you invested with time and money on account. It’s a trap and that is why it is done. THANK YOU LEAH – for pointing out the Suppressive manipulation Tech designed by L Ron Hubbard
I remember having to do at least 2.3 hrs a day of study. And when I got on the BC it was even worse. They had a mission come and close down the mission until everyone could do al “standard schedule” whether it be nighttime or daytime schedule. The BC emptied out and was a ghost town for a long time from that mission. And then DM closed it completely and still it is not open even though that is the thing ASHO was put there for, to deliver the BC.
The Sup, Phil Embick once got me in there and told me to call and tell my missing twin that he’d better get his ass i there or we’d both go to ethics and other big threats. He wanted me to play the heavy and threatened me that Id go to ethics if I didn’t call and get my twin in. I told him he was out on an approved CSW. He said he didn’t approve it and it was my job to get the twin in here (and use plenty of intimidation to get him to comoply.) I asked for a reference that it was my job to call him. He said that it was his own personal rule and that he wasn’t going to have his stats fall just because twins were mutually out ethics on a schedule . So I called him and was shaking in my boots over the threats to me personally.
At least there was a BC. Unfortunately it is not a big money maker so it had to go.
But as I paid for the BC, doesn’t the CoS “ALWAYS” have to “DELIVER WHAT IS PROMISED”???
ok, just kidding …
ETA:
My bet is that he NEVER offers the SHSBC again, the course he FAILED to complete, the gold standard of standard tech while Hubbard was around. IIRC, that was when he beat up his (female) co-auditor IN SESSION.
DM’s go too many overts against delivery of services, so he’ll keep churning out what he touts as GOLDEN AGEs of this or that which will push auditor training and WDAHs even more completely out of existence within what’s left of the enterprise that Ron created.
The only things keeping scientology seeming to be afloat are the few whales who still have money to fritter away on useless status symbols.
I’ve got a news reader set to find scn stories. Of late, it’s only finding the same stories covered on these scn-watchers’ sites.
The bright idea he had for his brainwashing was putting it on the STUDENTS to establish SOME way that that disassembly of words meant something instead of writing it down clearly in the first place; having editors to ensure that it was clear and didn’t contradict itself or other earlier scribblings. Of course not. Hubbard was the ONLY author in history who never needed to review and correct what he was working on. His stream-of-consciousness was declared to be the “WISDOM OF THE AGES”™, Perfect and immutable.
cultwater, it’s cult city now. Didn’t you read the memo?
Paid for in Advance – YES!
Refunds Available? – NO! NEVER!
Under no circumstances is money pre-paid for some so-called services ever refunded.
High pressure sales people (aka “Reges” or Registrars) tell people all kinds of lies in order to get them to pre-pay thousands of dollars for services without telling them that no refunds are ever issued under any circumstances.
Then, invariably, when their finances get tight or people decide they are just fed up with this insanity and they want OUT and they want their money refunded for services they paid for but never took – they are in for a nasty shock.
NO MONEY IS EVER REFUNDED UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!!
There are many outstanding lawsuits launched by victims who cry they were told they could get a refund and so they paid thousands of dollars for some crazy courses or other crazy services. But when they wanted to get that money back, they found they had to sue and this evil cult never gives up any money without a huge and expensive legal battle.
Trying to sue this cult is much like trying to sue an insurance company. It’s just about impossible.
Sadly, no consumer laws apply to this scam because it is a religion. In almost all cases, you are just SOL when you try to get any of your money back.
So, be warned. Never give them any money for services in advance.
EVEN BETTER, NEVER GIVE THEM ANY MONEY AT ALL. NEVER. NEVER. NEVER. Not a single red cent.
Any money you give these bandits is just money wasted and trying to recover that money is almost always just a waste of time.
Stay away from this illegal cult. They are not a church. They are a scam!
It was not always this way. This is the doing of Miscavige.
In the 70s and 80s, refunds and repayments were dealt with by the Board Finance Officer, which was a part-time post (thankfully) , usually held by the FBO or Treasury Secretary.
Refundees had to go through a tiresome routing form where they would be pressured to reconsider. If they still decided to go through with the refund, all of the documentation would be sent up lines to an outfit called the Claims Verification Board. It would take several weeks for this to come back, at which time a check would be cut and the claimant paid.
I know this to be true because I was the Board Finance Officer for several years at a Class V Org, and I handed out at least a dozen refund checks during this period.
I never knew this. Thank you for letting us know.
Cavalier, I think ultimately it IS Hubbard’s doing. He left Miscavige a faltering organization and a philosphy of rapaciousness, and little choice but to expand on the worst of Hubbard’s playbook to keep things afloat.
From what I’ve read, orgs and missions issued refunds during that era when they were fortunate enough to have the cash flow to cover returning money on account. As things tightened up, which happened towards the end of Hubbard’s era due in good part to inevitable demographic and social changes, the fight over pieces of a shrinking pie got uglier — and eventually spilled over to ‘public’ members, with the tightening up and effective ending of refund policies.
In the CofS’ heyday Hubbard was so awash in suitcases of cash from baby boomer ‘seekers’ that he could afford to appear generous — and only had to go as far down the chain as ruthlessly ripping off the orgs and missions if he wanted more money. Now departing members just get the same sort of treatment Hubbard dictated for internal entities, as well as external contractors.
When I look at it, there’s always an ‘earlier, similar’ for what Miscavige is doing now. Like donations without ‘exchange’? The purchase/gift of the Saint Hill property, and ‘loans’ from people like Ray Kemp that weren’t repaid; Hubbard’s early scheme of charging wealthy followers exhorbitant amounts for special attention is almost, if not quite, there (and yet another precedent, for what Miscavige now does with the whales).
I don’t get the indigation about Miscavige doing what seems to me to be just an extension of the sorts of things Hubbard did. Even the continued tinkering with the ‘tech’ was Hubbard’s go-to for keeping up members’ interest during his reign, and as each iteration proved to be a disappointment and had to be replaced with something new promising to do what went before it had failed to, and to keep up excitement; the regime after his death was supposed to be denied that tool, but I think Miscavige discovered that what Hubbard had relied on for 4 decades was still going to be needed in some form if the CofS was to survive for a few more decades.
yes.
we had them in our class V too.
we paid them, got them off the lines, and moved on. It was to protect PR and there was policy.
That’s why it’s taken me awhile to really wrap my head around Flag not giving RR and then it just seeming to be the “thing”.
Like not giving out goldenrod! How chickenshit is that?
When I wrote out a declare goldenrod, I mailed you your copy. Right after I slapped the public copy on the BB.
Quite right Cav. I remember reading the telex traffic from orgs to CIC Flag explaining the GI/CGI gaps because of refunds paid out and of course the Refund stat reports.
Right, Skyler. scientology is a ‘roach motel’ for money; it checks in but can never check out.
FYI, if someone leaves with money still on account for future services, the appropriate claim is breach of fiduciary duty.
When you give a church a donation that is for a specific purpose and the money is not used for that purpose, it is absolutely refundable.
I always found it odd that Mr. Garcia said in an affidavit that he understood that there was no right to a refund. There certainly is when it comes to prepayment for services.
Not sure what affidavit you are referring to? I dont think he ever said anything of the sort with respect to money paid fort services.
I was considered the supreme expression of dilettantism when I was in Scientology. It made me laugh because I was always trying to test Hubbard’s theories. I never really bought into him and considered he was just making suggestions. It turned out I was correct. They saw me as an amateur but I was in reality carefully studying Hubbard himself. No one really messed with me because I was at an altitude and had money relative to the average member. After I completed OT VIII, everyone stopped talking to me. They could not believe I had any OT powers as I was not worthy of them. It was all a big lie. Hubbard could not move a fly off the wall with a stick.