I am constantly reminded of the absurdity of the current state of affairs in the RCS.
Somehow, Dear Leader has managed to persuade those who blindly follow him to roll themselves back down the Bridge and start all over again. AND pay for the privilege of doing so.
Does it never strike any of these people as a little odd that they have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to progress to “Truth Revealed” (some of them have probably done OT VII and OT VIII more than once) and they really DID achieve what they proclaimed in their success stories on those levels (totally exterior, full recall, cause over life etc etc etc) that there is something VERY wrong if they are now back at the very bottom doing processes designed to get them into present time and able to control the physical universe and their bodies. Have they ever actually LOOKED at a Grade Chart and seen where the Purif and Objectives are?
I keep thinking back to Jason Beghe who said (paraphrased) — if this was all non-standard and squirrel, and I didnt get the gains I should have — are you going to return my money?
Virtually every day I see this sort of stuff. Or “successes” from “OT VIIIs” who have had “mind-blowing” (or “subtle” in one case) wins on “re-doing” Purif and Objectives.
Honestly, these people deserve what they get. And I sort of wonder sometimes, is there any point in even trying to wake them up to reality?
test
Exactly right, great comment Oracle.
I will add that Mr. Parodi unwittingly gave us a look into how “absolute” ep’s are when he stated that he still had pictures and restimulation as a “New” OT8. This certainly may not invalidate any wins that he DID have. But it means that the theory that he had gotten RID OF all sources of bank restimulation by going clear and full “negative gain” OT has not actually proven to be true. (yeah, yeah, he could have been mishandled by the superb Flag CS’s, yadda yadda yadda … I’m just pointing out that his statement was VERY telling).
And y’all just KNOW that he will have gotten a certain amount of shit for writing that email and he will never come close to being honest about this again.
I always enjoy your comments Joe.
Thanks Tony. Right back at ya’ kid.
I do think we need to be open to the possibility – likelihood? – that many of these alleged “OT8s” actually NEED to be run on objectives. I have noted on a number of occasions and will continue to do so, that I have had tremendous wins in auditing and Scientology training, and also as an auditor and CS. At the same time I no longer think that the grade chart is anything but an arbitrary alignment of processes, most of which are very very workable, though some may not be on everyone. The idea that pcs necessarily ever REALLY have the stated eps of each grade is a fallacy from actual observation over 35 years. LRH himself wrote that the key to all cases was responsibility. And as the onlines folks take their orders from others as to whom and to what they can remain in A, R and C with, these beings have ALREADY ELECTED NOT TO BE CAUSE, violating the most basic LRH definition of responsibility.
In a way I’m surprised that Miscavige is going this route with objectives. ONE cog to have on objectives (and I have read countless wonderful ones, my favorite action to CS) is that the MEST universe and beings in it are ALWAYS giving one commands …. and that one does have to on SOME level agree to carry them out. I mean, you CAN touch the third rail if you want to … and some do. A being IS capable of deciding to say “no.” But as these OT8s have already decided they will always follow “command intention” in order to be a “good member of the group”, I doubt that any will have anything like the above cog.
Excellent, excellent points made on responsibility here. Possibly the OTVIII’s now think that enlightenment comes instead by being good girls and boys. Actually, I think its worse, lower, even, than that. The OTs I know will tell you that everything they do is wholly on their OWN determinism. I suppose its just coincidence that everything they do is precisely what they’re told by David Miscavige to do, and nothing else. They’re delusional. They would have to come UP to being robotic, with an awareness that they are robotic. That would be a step up. As it is, they THINK that they are actually self-determined!
ANYONE who saw the 8 “materials” and didn’t run (not walk) needs some serious education on the subject of logic. Much LESS willingly doing it ALL over again. “Fool me once…”
I haven’t a clue what’s on the 8 “materials” but the last I heard, LRH never released anything above the original OT VII. Not to pick your brain, or tempt you to disclose, but I’m curious – can you explain a bit more what you mean? Not important, really – but this OT VIII mystery is, well, a mystery to me.
To me, it seems a bit of a head-scratcher that LRH would invest so much of his resources in Power, R6EW, and the Clearing Course, and put them on a very prominent position on the Bridge, if all that could be dismissed with one cognition – but my logic would invalidate, apparently, a lot of people who have attested to a state of Clear without running those processes, whether they subsequently went on to be raging successes on the OT levels … or not … so I usually just accept that I must be really stupid not to get this, and shut up.
Read “Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior” by Marty Rathbun. He discusses what happened when Ron died and what became of his research materials (OTVIII through XV).It is an excellent book and reveals some interesting data. However I think there’s another side of the story. Read some of Robert Vaughn Young’s stuff about Ron’s death and about Pat Broeker. There’s some answers there.
Pat Broeker is the man with the answers, I think, if he ever decides to talk. Pat’s trouble is that he is bad mouthed all around. “He stole money” “He drank and gambled” “He bought race horses with church money”. Marty paints a pretty bleak picture of Pat in “Memoirs”. Miscavage said he forged Flag Order 3879 and sent PI’s to chase him for 25 years. (Robert Vaugn Yound has the kindest words about Broeker) It would be a very different Scientology today if Pat had remained “1st Loyal Officer” and Miscavage’s coup had failed.
I don’t know. I think there are answers in the 10 volume “Mission Earth”, answers to those OT levels and just what the hell happened. (Jettero Heller is Pat Broeker.)
Carcha, Ron released OT 8. In a nutshell the main process is just checking past life ID’s from your auditing and seeing if false or not by read. He didn’t have any higher levels written (although he lied about having many written). You can find good and accurate descriptions on the web. It is a total joke and doesn’t do what LRH said it would do. Of course.
Ashaman, Old School – Just acknowledging your replies. – Carcha.
I’m absolutely loving these “success stories” by the likes of R.W., D.C. and J.G. Really personalizes the experience, doesn’t it?
Not so long ago 4 OT VIIIs were re-doing their Purification Rundowns at Los Angeles Day org.
Not because they had reverted to drugs or had any drug history during their Trek to OT VIII.
Not because they had any issues at all.
But because it was ordered !
Karen,
That’s pretty typical in what my ol ‘friend Jeff calls the “Brave New World of Scientology” these days where compliance is the highest virtue.
They say jump and all the public that’s left seem to do these days is just ask “how high?”
What a pathetic bunch of losers.
All they need is some backbone.
Maybe some evolutionary freak of nature might cause any of those jelly fish to develop a back bone.
Marty and I used to disagree quite a lot but there is a point that we did agree on and that is that if the laity just stood up and said “no” to what was going on instead of going along to get along we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
It wouldn’t matter if it was just Davy running the show or some vast conspiracy of some kind.
The game that he or they were playing would end.
So much for these so called “OTs”.
All I have is nothing but distain for them.
The reason that we are out here MJ is that we each individually in our own way said “no”.
Who knows maybe the weight of the nays will cause an eventual as they say tipping point.
Though I’m not holding my breath.
We wouldn’t want to upset those in authority whose noses have turned brown by sniffing after a certain dog named Dave, now would we?
“Under the influence of heavy suppression, individuals do not hold their gains. ”
gains are obtained via the tech. if one loses gains under heavy suppression then “heavy suppression” is evidently more powerful than the tech.
the tech is supposed to make one more able to CONFRONT heavy suppression. not make you lose what you have gained in the face of it.
the tech is supposed to be 100% correct, it is 100% truth. nothing can be more powerful than that, including suppression.
if DM is using black dianetics to suppress the group then black dianetics is evidently more powerful than the tech.
“……it’s how to confront and shatter suppression, not how to run from an SP.”
Excellent post.
Designed to stimulate thought.
Alanzo
Mike, when all of the “new ot8’s” were told they had to go back onto OT7, from what I have heard it turned out to be a huge flap in the field and caused a mass exodus (that info has been suppressed).
With GAOT 1 and David’s announcement that he was cancelling all of the certs of all of the auditors on the planet, there was another mass exodus.
I know there has been another exodus with GAOT 2.
The flaps are not publicized. It is a constant shake down that throws a percentage of people off the bridge. There are plenty of people that distance themselves from these cycles.
So far, I have not seen one success story of a person that finished Super Power since the building opened.
There is another side of this that does not see the light of day, except for the empty reception areas.
As far as people wanting to redo their L’s, a person can find new things that come up with purpose clearing, goal clearing and op terming, and run more on the L’s. This is a different kind of auditing and if one becomes aware of more situations one can always do more on the L’s. I don’t see that as any outpoint.
Someone seeking a twin “of comparable magnitude” makes me want to gag. That is about as narcissistic as it gets. It may be types like this looking for approval that return to go along with the new program and new bridge. The ones that consider themselves “Scientology Royalty”.
I do manage to get into L.A. often enough and occasionally take a drive around the Orgs there, they do look more or less empty. Nothing compared to former days.
The Freewinds has been more or less empty since the first Maiden Voyage, except for specialized events when they manage to get some kind of reunion going. That ship keeps going around in circles on the ocean mainly empty and home to the I.A.S. which I guess, uses it for offshore banking.
There is a huge percentage of people that have left and are underground. I mean, organized underground too. I went to one small Freezone/Indie get together and there were six class 8’s there. I doubt there are six class 8’s at the AO in L.A. right now.
I’ve seen some waiting rooms in the Freezone/Indie movement that were more packed than any of the HGC’s at Flag I saw, with people on a line up waiting for session.
I have met quit a few people by now that have come into Scientology in the Freezone / Indie Movement and made it all the way up the bridge, including the original OT levels, and have never stepped foot in an Org or Mission. Plenty of people do not return to the “Church” on these evolutions. I have noticed on these evolutions there is always a new slew of witch hunts that follow to attack customers that do not care to repurchase the newly packages items for sale or agree to be pushed back down the bridge or backwards.
Of course I do not have a body count, but it seemed to me there were less people at the Super Power opening than there at the Portland protest in the 80’s.
Plenty of people have just bypassed Miscavige and the Church, reorganized and kept moving. I don’t have stats to offer up but I would bet right now any amount of money there are more people on lines in the Freezone /Indie movement than there are in the Church. With few if any flaps going on the in the Freezone/Indie movement anymore. As most of the plants and sources of conflict have exhausted themselves to little avail or been identified.
I should also say, thanks to You, Marty, Karen and the many others who take the heat, there are plenty of people out here free to do just as they please and get up the bridge without the madness and there is a solid movement now. Safe spaces.
Signs of the mass exodus. Anyone looking to buy a pre owned IAS Patron Pin with a diamond in it?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SCIENTOLOGY-INTERNATIONAL-ASSOC-of-SCIENTOLOGISTS-PATRON-18K-YELLOW-GOLD-PIN-/191081085204?pt=US_Fine_Jewelry&hash=item2c7d51f914
What would anyone do with it?
Well guys, there are a lot of people out here making others wrong for exploring Scientology. The purpose behind that, the purpose behind a ser fac, is to make someone else like themselves less.
I do not apologize for my life or my interests. For how I have lived my life or spent my time and money. I have met some really great people by exploring this arena and I have many wonderful memories. I don’t know how I will carry them all into a new life.
But I am happy for the people who can stay true to their goals and purposes and interests.
I do not accept the pressure to like myself less because I explored and still am, Scientology. I will not apologize for my gains, values or life. Or for being me.
I am very happy for my life and what I have discovered and experienced by living it. I am more than happy with the auditing I have had and I am grateful for the people who have helped me and others.
I feel it is my duty to support others who have made an honest go of things and who have lived to help others. Whether it is through Scientology or Save the Children or Toys for Tots or whatever. I even care about our veterans and do what I can there.
I am very glad the Freezone / Indie movement has survived and taken root and become organized. I am grateful for the people who have laid themselves on the line for that. I am grateful for the people who care enough about others to help them shoulder their problems. That is what an auditor does, he just listens and helps with the burden.
Thank you all for being here and for what you have been and are, even if it is not what I am.
There is a middle path out here where people are not locked into the left or the right in some solid fashion trying to be right about everything and making others wrong.
Marty walks it. Mike walks it. Karen walks it. Anyone who can carry the burden of inconvenient truths, heartache, disillusionment, sacrifice, and the burden of self conflict and still not be compromised with doubt, and self destruction, is a hero here.
I don’t want to tear myself down. I don’t want others to either. There is still a lot of good to give to one another. And a lot of help and answers.
I do not think any one of us got involved with Scientology with the purpose to harm others or ourselves. But it is human nature to fight back against suppression. In fact, it is a duty on another level. Even now when we fight the good fight, out reasons behind it are still those for Freedom and a better tomorrow.
It comes from a goodness and a rightness. A hope and a vision.
I believe in you, me and us. It takes some effort to build a better world. It always has and it always will.
Let’s be gentle with one another. We really are all very good meaning. We love.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph0aELhsQoc
A beautiful entreaty, Oracle. I second that motion!
Humanity is senior to Scientology. Someone needed to say it.
If you are going to use “Scientology” to harm or suppress another human being, you do not have your priorities straight. Humanity was here before Scientology.
I have lived through a lot of abuse about Scientology. Not in the Church, but out! There are people that think they have a license to abuse you because you were curious about Scientology. Or because you used Scientology, some of it to translate your thoughts.
Even they, put Scientology above Humanity and complain bitterly that the Scientologists do it. While they knock you in the fucking dirt.
If you are going to come up behind me and use Scientology to attack me or unmock me, and use Scientology as the reason why, you are on the very same page as the Scientologists that do this to others.
Someone just committed suicide because he was thrown under the bus by the Church and fair gamed on top of that while he fought his last battle just to be him.
That ain’t me babe. I am not going to kill myself or hate myself. Nobody deserves that for having a life.
Abuse is abuse. People can see it. Just try to be a little more kind. And let others be, Please.
Brad Halsey was a waste of beautiful potential. He was a well meaning person. Just too many people on his plate with the purpose to unmock him. What will it take before we can stop unmocking our fellow man? Why? Because he was a Scientology or a Jew or a Catholic?
Hey, it is O.K. to go after people that are the bad guys.
Was Brad a bad guy? Was that really necessary?
Let’s collect ourselves people. This purpose to unmock others, this is not us. This is not our meaning in life.
Let’s put humanity above the Scientology and get back to reason and work it out from there O.K.?
One Grad V C/S simply calls up students and auditors he knew when on staff who blew long ago and sells them auditing at good rates. He’s got 6 pcs on the go now in the evenings, and has no part in either the CO$ or the FZ/Indies — totally off any lines except his own. That’s where all the PC recoveries occur. Another Class IX with also no contact with either delivering NOTs completely under the radar while CO$ still comes banging on her door looking for money.
This is good news indeed, and I acknowledge your “right target” of Mike, Marty and Karen for paving the way.
That’s uplifting news for those who advocate the freedom of religion guarantees of this great country.
The Bridge to Nowhere indeed.
Wow, there are so many great comments and observations here today, I don’t think I could bring anything new to the mix right now.
I must say though, that this is pretty much why I left Scn/ the RCS in general. I realized that I was becoming unhappier in life chasing the pipe dream that the CoS offers, not to mention living on the verge of bankruptcy (a couple of times) which is very stressful and not good for anyone, or a marriage and family. My physical health also started to decline and I am a very active, healthy type of person.
I did a lot of training GAT and that was good but I had some objections as an auditor on calling the “3 swing FN.” That bothered me because I did training prior to the change of definition and felt it was wrong to not call an FN when I saw it was one, along with the pc’s indicators. I felt like it betrays the pc in some way to deny them that.
I used to be a “fast” pc and could duplicate and cognite quickly but after the change in the FN definition, things slowed down greatly and I began to complain a lot. My objections got me endless repair lists, progress programs, sec checks, etc. I was moving nowhere and was told by the CS to “just keep going.” That was not good enough for me and I began to take serious stock of my life in connection to the CoS and overall in general.
One reason I kept going as long as I did was that I kept thinking that the problem was ME. Eventually, with a lot of reflection and having honest conversations with myself was I able to come to terms with the fact that something much bigger was working against me and I determined that it was the organization itself.
On Christmas Day several years ago, I was sitting looking out the window and had an epiphany of sorts: “You don’t have to do it anymore.” The sense of relief and happiness that flooded me was the best I felt in years on the topic of Scn. I knew in that moment what real freedom was and that I could have that again on a daily basis. And so I do today, long story short.
RTC
you’d think it stands for ruin the church
It doesn’t?
Well, that’s exactly it. They have the choice to look around and investigate for alternate Scientology delivery centers. Lots of data on the net. Ultimately it’s their own call, their own choice. I had phenomenal wins in Scientology, but when other directions and agendas clearly indicated the CO$ had become a dead end, I continued my bridge out here. No regrets in respect to either.
I believe the entire CO$ “Listen, don’t Look” tight marketing program approach has no other point other than to retain their clients/parishioners and to prevent them from ending up in the FZ/Indies/Offline, keeping the money wheels spinning. It’s done by means of threats, emergencies, consequences, hopes, misinformation and any other vices to keep attention and agreement in line and tightly controlled. Any fascist and communist regime pretty much does the same thing. From the Scientology perspective, to keep bank dramatization at bay.
I see a lot of people here trying to figure out what they are seeing with these OT8s, and I see people trying to think with Scientology to figure it out.
You can’t figure out Scientology using Scientology.
You have to use ideas OUTSIDE of Scientology to be able to understand Scientology.
“In the presence of suppression, people lose their gains”, “GAT II is squirrel so that is why OT 8s, who supposedly have no “case”, are still seeking auditing”. These Scientology-based explanations for what you are seeing just go around and around.
Using Scientology to understand Scientology is it’s own hamster wheel.
Read a few wikipedia articles on Social Psychology, learn “wog” logic and critical thinking skills – NOT the data series, study up on the Brain Reward System – and don’t use Scientology to filter these ideas. Study the ideas AS THEMSELVES.
Hell, just read the forward of this book:
http://www.amazon.com/When-Prophecy-Fails-Leon-Festinger-ebook/dp/B004C44BEG/ref=pd_sim_kstore_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=1H55QEBJR2FTA0CCG173
Then turn around and look at Scientology using those ideas
I’m sorry if I sound like I am talking down to anyone. I am not. It’s just very clear what is happening with these OT 8s as long as you don’t try to use Scientology to figure it out.
Alanzo
“You can’t”
“You have to”.
Can’t do and must do. Like can’t have and must have.
No, I do not feel like you are talking down to me. “You can’ts” and “You musts” were certainly not created in Scientology. I don’t think anyone needs to be involved in Scientology to understand these forces.
These are forces.
They’re words. They’re just words.
Alanzo
Sorry –
These aren’t forces.
What good are the L’s, or any other auditing or training in Scientology, if you end up so effect that you think that words are forces?
Sorry, but somebody has to ask this question.
Alanzo
Purpose is there. Words carry purpose. There are forces behind purposes. Words have power and behind that power is a purpose or force.
That is just the way I see it.
If words have no force, why are you here using them to change the world, or people, or even responding to them?
Never mind the public posturing. I know you know what I mean. I do not want to tear you down, and you know I do not succumb. If only one of us can be “right”, I am willing to be wrong. Not because of my debating abilities, just because I love you Alanzo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjem3G_QsKA
Oracle wrote:
Purpose is there. Words carry purpose. There are forces behind purposes. Words have power and behind that power is a purpose or force.
That is just the way I see it.
Well I disagree that there are forces behind purposes if we are talking about forces such as gravity, or momentum, or steam pressure. There are emotions connected to purposes. There are sensations and endocrine states. But not forces.
It’s important, again, to remember exactly what you are representing with a metaphor. Don’t get trapped in a land of mental make-believe, which auditing can help you do.
But yes, the purpose was to point out that using Scientology to understand Scientology is its own Hamster Wheel. Following that purpose, I provided other ideas and subjects which help a person to understand the phenomenon of OT8s, who within Scientology have no “case”, still wanting to get their “case” handled.
Within the Scientology Mindset, there is no way to fully understand this except to continue huffing and puffing on the Hamster Wheel.
The purpose was to provide some way off the Scientology Hamster Wheel.
Voluntarily. By one’s own thought and effort.
You can keep huffing and puffing on the Scientology Hamster Wheel for as long as you want.
I’ll be here, waiting with a towel and some Gatorade.
Alanzo
Thank you, Alanzo. All that use of Scientology to explain the nutty behavior was making me dizzy. It has taken me a few years to fully break that habit, myself, but people, the answers ARE NOT IN THERE!
I fit makes you feel better better to view that I am crazy and oblivious and you are sane and aware please be my guest. It costs me nothing and brings you comfort. Why would I have a problem with that?
Alanzo, Laughter! Don’t forget the Jim Beam!
Today (March 8) is International Women’s Day. Forget Big Blue, AOLA, and any re-re-re-re opening, or re-doing anything. IWD doesn’t cost anything.
But how can it be any kind of an event without regges?
There may be Scientology followers who are addicted to auditing, just as psychoanalysis patients are sometimes addicted to therapy. Scientology as well as auditing is a form of psychoanalysis hopefully people agree on that aspect.
I really do not see Scientology surviving in either the corporate or independent fields. Think about it if Corporate Scientology goes belly-up in the near future. Does anyone really think they are going to release all the case files if they even know where they are?
How does one begin when there is no beginning, where there is no path to follow? If there is a path who dictates how one is to follow it. There will be power struggles, orthodox versus unorthodox modalities pushed by one group over another.
Where is the command and control, the main office, arbitration boards etc? There will be an outpouring of legal action across the World. It’s almost unfathomable to imagine what is going to occur. No centralization for training, materials, psychoanalysis, validation etc?
Now those in the independent field can provide a service as there will be many disillusioned people when this all goes under. They may be able to help those who have lost a sense of reality to return to more productive lives. However their acts will need to be of an altruistic nature everyone is in hock beyond the imagination.
With an estimated World population of 7 Billion people Scientology has just become the butt of jokes. In human interest stories, the profoundly sad stories will not make matters any better. When corporate RCS goes the way of the dinosaur there will be so many stories published I cannot imagine anyone joining any group having anything to do with Scientology.
It is a free world one should be able to practice or follow whatever teachings they so desire. Regarding Scientology I believe there will be a decompression period for those who still follow it. Then slowly but surely it will just fade away into the mists of time.
Don’t completely agree with you here. I think the subject was intended to help others and anyone who uses it for that sole purpose will keep it alive no matter what the past abuses have been, due to evil intentioned people who used it for their own nefarious ends.
There is conjecture that the e-meter creates an endorphin effect and possibly long-term remodeling of the brain, given enough exposure.
The e-meter appears to give over five times as much charge to the PC / Pre-OT in 2 and a half hours as is received in two sessions of Electroconvulsive Therapy (ECT) as measured in Coulombs. I am not sure what the differential amounts are that flow through the brain due to the e-meter vs. in ECT. But even if only one fifth of what goes through the “cans” impacts the brain, the e-meter is on the same order of magnitude of overall coulombs, though the ECT is still more concentrated / of shorter delivery.
Hopefully this will all get _scientifically_ studied someday.
In the meantime, it would seem a tempting hypothesis to explain the robotified, non-thinking, almost hypnotized behavior of true believers.
I find this manner of inquiry very interesting. However, I would like to point out that I, in all my 30+ years in Scientology, never got “on the cans” and was still as died-in-the-wool as they come (well, almost). I think the promises hook you as much as anything. And as has been discussed earlier, when the bridge becomes a substitute for life, you really have a deeper, more serious issue that would have to be addressed before anything else.
I maintain that Scientology now is the Amish of the 20th century. One look at the field of positive psychology shows we are progressing really fast in human potential, and will continue to do so, while Scientology remains locked in its world.
Good point, DollarMorgue. That is a solid counter-argument to any claim that e-meter is the culprit.
Maybe it has some effect, but the cult-mind true-believer has been around much longer.
There is some interesting research going on in electrical stimulation. On the body, it is often used in the healing process, especially for soft tissue injuries. On the brain level, scientists have found that they can increase functioning of things as specific as mathematics performance.
(There is also at least one study that sought to replicate “exteriorization” / “out of body experience” in the lab that was successful.
Whether it is due to brain, mind, or thetan, reality certainly does seem to be a mental construct.
Dear FOTF2012, re your post above “There is conjecture that the e-meter creates an endorphin effect and possibly long-term remodeling of the brain, given enough exposure.”
I have done thousands of hours of un-metered auditing on others with fantastic results. In fact, prior to ANY Scientology or Dianetics training this lifetime, I audited hundreds of hours, un-metered on myself, starting at age 7 (yes, age seven). I started “solo-auditing” out engramic charge on myself in a totally darkened room for approximately 30 minutes at a time, and would end session when I felt at least very relieved, if not fantastic. I continued my un-metered soloing for almost 24 more years.
So, I have long ago proven to myself that it is not an electronic meter that has made me and so many others whom I have audited, feel great.
I hope this data can be helpful with the further exploration of conjectures that “…the e-meter creates an endorphin effect and possibly long-term remodeling of the brain, given enough exposure.”
For those OT VIIIs out there, I have no doubts you had wins or felt blown out.
But were your wins what Hubbard and Scientology claimed they would deliver? Are you fully at cause over MEST, life, and thought, both subjectively and objectively?
If you are OT VIII by that definition, please demonstrate it and put the endless debate to a scientific end, keeping in mind that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.
If you are not OT VIII by that definition, what exactly are you claiming you achieved?
I find it odd, in the article, that supposed OTs have to use “wog” Facebook technology to find twins. Why not just put the intention in the other person’s mind to twin with you?
The great deception of Scientology seems to be that it trains us great skills in self-deception as well.
Bingo!
Love it! Wish I could shoop but visualize this one: The big circle with a line through the word “Scientology”. Then on one side it says, “Save Your Family” and on the other side of the slashed circle it say, “Save Your Money”. I’d put both yours and mine on my car. Better yet, I’d like to purchase a month of billboard advertising.
I feel like I just had a session.
This was in response to MJ’s bumper sticker.
I think is a two fold situation: 1) The individual is dependent of exterior things to stimulate him, i.e. he is well or not depending on what is being offered to him from the outside; could be movies, entertainment, shows, auditing and so on. He is not creating from his viewpoint how things look, feel, should be, want them to be. He is dependent from exterior stimulus. So, auditing is a continuous inflow and he uses it to ‘feel ‘good’ as he is incapable of generating or creating things himself.
2) A person has already achieved a certain EP, he then gets told the action was ‘not quite standard’ and has to be redone. Amazingly he does not get the point that he has been severely invalidated and evaluated and thus introverted. So, he repeats whatever auditing action again, but this time he has to re-create mass in order to run it again. Consequently he keeps introverting on and on plus adding new ‘masses-charge’ so there is something to run.
Such and introverted, and already un-creative individual plus the messed up case (mind) can’t see….so they keep going. It is their level of beingness and, as Mike says, let them be.
The eventual EP of auditing would be no longer in need of it as able to create any effect one desires and cause over their own life.
That’s how I see it, MJ! When I was first in Scientology someone made the comment that Scientology is the only game where the end result is that it as-ises itself – or something to that effect. (not sure if this is derived from LRH or not…) I liked that concept! I still do.
A crude and rather simplistic analogy: You get stuck in the mud. Someone helps you get out of the mudhole (maybe you have to slip out of the old boots). You’re out and on with the next event, or maybe first you help the other guy standing next to you out of the mud, too. You don’t jump back in the mud… unless, of course, you really like being stuck in mud. Just don’t expect me to play in the mud with you forever!
Silvia,
You are very right as usual.
Also the ones that WERE quickied up the Bridge KNOW they didn’t really get the EP and thus HAVE TO agree to redo the Bridge though ‘Blanket C/Sing’ from DM for everybody is complete out-tech and does not work.
The ones that DID EP their levels should be able to say F… U!, laugh, throw the cans as far as they can and run out.
Greta
Under the influence of heavy suppression, individuals do not hold their gains. Supporting the CoS is tantamount to a continuous overt act of hellish magnitude. Their ethics are out, and at some level they all know it. So even apart from the gross out tech, mixing rundowns and repairs, repeated rundowns, Gross Auditing Errors, flagrant out metering and TRS, violations of the Auditor’s Code, overrunning processes, ignoring FNs, wrong condition assignments, straight up invalidation, criminal out exchange, theft, corruption and abuse… every single person in the RCS knows they don’t deserve any “OT abilities.” And that also accounts for their deep stupidity and delusional blindness, not to mention their attacks and natter (missed withhold phenomena) toward Scientology/LRH critics and whistle blowers.
Unfortunately the “We are above the law” attitude is suffused throughout every level of Scientology, which is just another way of saying, “Laws don’t apply to us because we are a suppressive group.” Really, there’s only ONE reason laws “don’t apply” to people: it is when they have become delusional to the point where their sense of entitlement overrides their sense of ethics.
So of course where does all this take them? Into the squirrel cage. They run until they trip. Then they tumble until they fall out. Then they look around and start to figure out where they are.
Very well expressed Thoughtful, thanks.
Quite right, Thoughtful. PTSness causes cases to rollercoaster.
Wow, this is true. Anyone still in towing Miscavige’s line is knowingly or unknowingly PTS to this Suppressive Person, and as such any gains will not be stable. He will roller-coaster. The SP is not going to let him make it. OH, my God, I just really got this, you know? Thank you, Thoughtful!
Well said. In the current church – with “look in” systems and all – it would seem to me that most pcs never really get “in session.” Not much auditing is occurring despite how many ever hours people are sitting in chairs holding the cans. Being in a session but being spied on and concerned about the consequences of what one says or thinks (and on top of that, having it videographed), a pc cannot possibly really feel very safe. Therefore, the axiomatic formula “pc plus auditor is greater than the pc’s bank” doesn’t happen. No or poor auditing results = empty HGCs.
Sheldon’s comments above (thanks, Sheldon) inspire me to pose some questions:
1. Have you ever wondered what could be happening in our brains and bodies when we’re “that blown out”?
2. Have you ever attempted to learn what is going on with us biochemically during times of euphoria, ecstasy, feeling out of the body with or without extra-body sensory perceptions, extraordinarily high self-esteem, gratitude, happiness beyond bliss, and pan-determinism?
3. Under what other conditions, influences and stimuli (besides Scientology auditing) do these phenomena present in people?
4. Would it be intellectually honest, even courageous, not only to be willing to look at these questions, but to actually try seriously to find some possible answers?
This is such a good point. When I see this kind of thing I think about “justified thought”. People have certain ideas that cannot be shaken. They think “DM is 100% on source” and “Having COB’s GAG Two means Everything in Scientology works 100% of the time” and “I just need to follow orders and everything will be fine” and “only people with huge crimes fail to get the gains the registrars promise”. OSA and MAAs work hard to punch in these false ideas to keep people in line. They have a whole ream of them.
With their thinking abilities severely crippled in this manner there is a type of mental gymnastics that has to be performed whenever some actual real world event challenges them mentally.
They get told “you have to do objectives over again, COB said so” and they think “well thats fine, because COB is 100% on source”. Then they start objectives and find it really sucks, so they think, “well I must have huge crimes because I am not getting all the gains”, then they sign up for a hundred hours of sec checking, and then return to objectives 5 years later.
However by then everything has changed and they are told by the registrar “you have to do Life Repair over again”, so they start that and it sucks, so they sign up for 100 hours of sec checking to help them discover their crimes but half way through die of cancer.
I have many times felt that people who have backbones made of jello deserve what they get. Especially because people who do have courage and integrity are being hurt in the effort to clean up the lies. But no one deserves to be punished for being too gullible. That should not be a crime.
Those who have remained supportive of DM have a hard road to travel. Scientology is sliding into oblivion for no other reason than they cannot hide what they say and do. Their own stupid and evil acts are open for the world to see (refusing refunds = stupid, disconnection=evil).
Mike Rinder is doing an incredible job here to just keep the world informed of what is actually being said and done inside the bubble and providing a discussion platform for the hundreds of people who want to see reform and change.
And there are hundreds of people who are steadily working away to convince friends and family to LOOK at the actual scene instead of listening to the lies being shovelled out at events.
And this work is making a hugh impact.
Because Scientology is so secretive about it’s stats it is possible to think that what YOU are doing is making no difference. But that is not so. All over the world the vulture-like regging is slowing down, losing momentum.
The opening of renovated orgs is getting rarer and rarer.
All over the world the effort to “re-cycle” Scientologists through the same services over and over is flopping. Yes, there are some like Pat Parodi who do it and tout the “subtle gains”. These wins are spread far and wide. But walk into any Class V org HGC and you will see exactly how effective this program is- huge fail.
So the steady pressure to LOOK, CONFRONT and CEASE to SUPPORT is working.
If each Scientologist left in the world today simply outright refused to support actions and activities that are CLEARLY off policy then the whole Scientology religion would start to turn around. I would recommend the following:
1. Refuse to donate for anything except services
2. Refuse to re-do services that you have already done and feel happy with.
3. Refuse to buy any form of “revised” or “updated” materials.
4. Refuse to disconnect from anyone who was declared without comm ev.
5. Refuse to disconnect from anyone who has been unable to get a review comm ev.
6. Refuse to attend any Int event except for LRH’s Brithday.
All of these six points can be supported by clear policy.
I bet there are thousands who are already doing something along these lines. A few thousand more and DM will be forced to start cleaning up his act.
Thanks for your cogent comments Roy.
Well said!
Anyone who can’t see or understand they are being overrun and invalidated by redoing the Bridge en mass, will become a lost soul stuck in an implant, with no life of their own. Overrun and invalidation go hand-in-hand in wiping out previous gains and driving a person into someone else’s valence…. that is, Dear Leader’s valence. How horrible is that?
To quote the movie Spinal Tap, on a scale of 1 to 10, it would be 11.
That just made me really sad. It truly is the “Truman Show” in there 🙁
But without Jim Carrey and DM is not a good substitute for Ed Harris.
Don’t kill the messenger. I’m just a messenger on this one. I wrote an email to an OT VIII friend who doesn’t yet know of my disaffection. I asked her why she would even want to re do the Purif and Objs? Here is her reply:
“When I completed OTVIII, I actually asked if I could do the Purif again. The CS at Flag told me No and said it wasn’t necessary. I disagreed because when I originally did the Purif at Flag it was only for 8 days and I only was up to 800 mg. of niacin when it was called complete. It was definitely not complete. In order to ever do Super Power, you need to have a complete Purif and complete objectives, which I had also originated many years ago that I wanted to do more of because I had only had about 1 intensive auditing Objectives when I started auditing in l974. Definitely, not complete.
So I have OK from Flag to do the Purif again and also the Survival Rundown which I want to coaudit to get in as many Objective Processes as I can. Believe me, at the other end of OTVIII you see how important these are. I have had many friends who were OTVIIIs that had requested being able to do the Purif again and some are taking advantage right now. “
I don’t usually post long comments, but today your post, Mike, paralleled what I’ve been looking at, so here goes my take on things.
The still in’s – the real sheeple, kool aid drinkers, not the under the radars – are basically unhappy people. They have low self esteem, a low self-worth, they’re unhappy with their lives and unwilling to be happy with what they have. They are looking for some magic answer that will change them, make them what they think they should be, without them having to do the hard work of living their lives.
So they go up the Bridge, and really, they’re no happier as they move up. But they have to say that they are. So when they get the abuse heaped on them they take it – they “know” that they do actually deserve it. And then they’re told how wonderful and valuable they are – which is what they crave. They are part of a group of like people, so they don’t have to work to fit in and make friends in the “real world,” and they get to be on the “inside” – like in that clique they always wanted to be in in school.
So why are they so happy about re-doing Bridge? Well, here I am, I’m OT8 and when I look at myself, I AM NO BETTER THAN WHEN I WAS JUST STARTINGTHE BRIDGE. Oh sure, I act like a big shot, and throw my weight – and status – around, but inside I know I’m just as badly off as when I started. But look at those amazing success stories from everyone else… so it must be me! Or really, my case. Yes, I am my case. So if I”m still my case at OT8… Wait, COB just gave me an out! Now I can redo my Bridge and it’s not me! It’s everyone! Phew, no stigma doing Objectives at OT8. Maybe now I can do it right and magically get fixed, my life will be wonderful, everyone around me will do great!
Here’s my daily locational – look around and find a happy still-in. Can’t? That’s the EP.
“They are looking for some magic answer that will change them, make them what they think they should be, without them having to do the hard work of living their lives.” I have never seen a more clearly expressed truth about people who are still in. They are willing to do anything except confront the realities of life – big and small, hard and soft, pain and pleasure. It’s all out here and it’s not always fun and it’s not always a game and sometimes it really sucks.
When auditing becomes escapism, you know these guys have lost the plot. And that is exactly what RCS is peddling to these poor sods, who just keep coming back for more. The comments on today’s blog have been some of the best I’ve ever seen.
Roger that Chris.
Remember reading some “OT VIII” in the Break Wind mag going on about how good it was to be back on the ship because the environment was so unsafe and was impinging on her sorry lil’ ass.
(You can guess this is pretty much paraphrased.)
I think one of the kids spilled chocolate milk on the carpet and she needed a review.
Maybe not that but something similar.
I mean this is the level of “OT” they got at the Church these days.
Nothing like Ingo, Pat or Hal causing a paradigm shift or anything like that. Just a bunch of losers who need auditing and need it badly.
Too bad they ain’t getting it.
Most of them are untrained and really don’t have a clue what auditing really is and thus they are pretty easy to deceive.
Many never got any real results ’cause they were too busy seeking status, though you get the occasional moron like Jerry who probably signed off the check sheet items and is stuck in some synthesis of false data or some kind of ser fac.
Something like:
“Management knows what’s best ’cause they’re management.”
I remember twinning with her on the Golden Shower of Tech drills while on the VI (un) Certainty courses and feeling like I’d just been water boarded every time I drilled with her.
Insisting we glibly do each one exactly as written no matter how off the fuckin’ wall crazy it was.
Thank gawd I got assigned to another twin.
Chris, I agree with you whole heartedly! The church dictates to you what things in life, when confronted and done, say you have honor or courage or case gain….like being on staff or donating until your finances are a complete mess.
I use to run the Charter Committee in Clearwater and did many arbitrations. It amazed me back then the unethical things public would do trying to conform to what the church said they should be or be able to accomplish. I watched so many trying to be that person the latest SO member who go a hold of them told them they should be. I think many people go into session thinking….ok…this is the level that’s going turn me into that person that will satisfy everyone. Chasin a dream.
Chris: “The comments on today’s blog have been some of the best I’ve ever seen.” That was my repetitive thought as I kept reading one after the other of more sanity. So, spot on, m’lad! And thanks to all the posters who’ve contributed to today’s marvelous comments.
Funny you should mention this, Cognited and Out. I’ve been thinking the same thing. Does Scn really change people for the better?
I’ve been quietly reviewing and surveying friends still-in; people I’ve known for 15,20,30 years. And I honestly cannot say they are very much different than the day I met them. Many are worse, suffering from body problems or financial hardship. The body problems one can attribute to being 30 years older. The financial hardships are directly attributable to RCS.
In the past when I’ve subtly raise the question, people are quick to point out a small number of successful Scnists. But, closer inspection will show they were successful before they got into Scn. Doing the Bridge did not make them successful.
This is not to say Scn has nothing to offer. I did it and devoted 30 years to it, surely there must have been some perceived benefit. My conclusion this that the wins and gains one may experience are completely and utterly subjective. Where Scn appears to fall short is delivering the promised abilities.
The theory being as a person moves up the Bridge they become more and more able; and with that increase in ability they experience greater survival potential, command over the MEST universe, etc, resulting in more wherewithal to continue up the Bridge. When one moves from Clear into the OT band the cost of service doubles or triples. I know of no one whose personal earning capacity doubled or tripled by doing such an action. In fact, the further I moved up the Bridge the harder things became financially.
So, in the end, going up the Bridge is no guarantee of ANY tangible increase of ability. And for many it is simply an expensive, feel-good “hobby”. This may explain the lack of significant impact Scn has had on today’s world. Scn’s “impact” is all self-proclaimed, over-hyped, embellished, fabricated Shermanspeak, much like the success stories written by their parishioners. And like their church, they fail to demonstrate any real, objective change or betterment.
When I came in, I had many points below center line of the OCA, my IQ was pretty poor. Today, I have all points of the OCA well above center line and my IQ has much improved. Is there room for improvement, you bet. I’m much better off today than the day I came in. Most of my gains came from training.
Thanks, Chris, for the ack.
And statpush – you are so right! I’d just add, those who took what Scn had to offer and really used it to improve their lives – those are the ones who had the sense and guts and integrity to look and leave (or, cognite and out!)
My income went up when I got in Scn. And continued to go up due to demand for income to pay for Bridge. And I had other wins too. So there were wins doing the Bridge when I did it.
Audit someone and watch them win. That should cure you of your blasé “it doesn’t really work for me” thing.
iForrest,
Betcha we could have a contest on the lowest OCA 😉
Can I get a Hallelujah brudder on training.
Literally saved my life.
My think is that a lot of people place ability in context of MEST.
Guy’s got a lotta MEST. Therefore must be able. Is usually the computation. Same thing that the idiots who were untrained morons ran in the Church.
Had a lotta doe = “Upstat”
Didn’t seem to matter if the person with all the bread got it by short selling UA or AA before 911, sold drugs and ran guns for the CIA.
Or ran their WISE company like a fascist police state.
Ewhhhhhhew he’s so uuuupstatttttt.
Ya know like Dave who is ripping off the organization for masseuses, five star chefs, probably blow jobs when he isn’t giving one on Hollywood Bvd.
The guy is wearing an Armani suit and drivin’ a Beamer.
Like most of the made men in the mob.
So he must be uuuupstatttt.
Funny these “upstat”, “able” skuz balls were usually the hardest to audit and required the most handing holding by the D of P.
Spent most of their time in review ’cause they didn’t wanna get trained which was only for low life’s like me ya know.
Coaudit?
Fagetabautit!
Actually in some ways I was glad I was always too broke to buy auditing and had to coaudit my way up.
Statpush – “……….increase in ability they experience greater survival potential.” I agree, but “potential” is only theoretical, until one gets off their ass and actually “DOES” something (do, as that which leads to done).
He has to decide to do something. And then practice, and build up the ability.
Satpush, I agree with you 100% that gains from Scientology auditing are largely subjective.
That said, subjective gains can contribute to one’s abilities simply by making a person more relieved, happier, and with more attention units in present time instead of stuck on some past losses (I had a lot of that)..
As for training in Scientology, I got lots of “case gain” by learning what a comm cycle actually is and getting very good at it (Comm Course and Pro-TRs), recovering my love of learning and studying and finding out what communication actually is (Key To Life), learning how to organize my life effectively (Life Orientation Course) and last but not least, by learning how to think with outpoints and pluspoints (Data Series). These courses helped me function much better, which in turn helped me LIVE better, which made me happier and more confident, etc. etc. – an upward spiral. I did a number of other courses as well.
I experienced auditing as increasing my potential, and training as increasing my actual abilities, and for me they worked together. Auditing helped unstick my attention off of some very severe and sudden losses, so that I actually could study and train, which boosted my abilities, and so on.
This is/was my personal experience. My problems with the Church of Scientology did not involve problems with the Tech. It worked for me.. I’m being careful in saying that this was my own personal experience.
Also, very important – my last auditing occurred BEFORE the 3-swing FN came down the pike. I am not auditor trained but I can still imagine how awful it would be to have my FN ignored or invalidated. Really shudder-worthy. I was fortunate to have never gone to Flag also.
Yeah, it’s really strange, Aquamarine. I had auditing from the 70s and off and on into the 90’s. All before the three swing rodeo.
But then, in the mid 2000s, I got an intensive and couldn’t understand why I couldn’t really put a comm line in with the auditor. Why I’d sit there and feel like I wasn’t doing something right because I’d KNOW my needle was floating but no one would call it. I’d get that frown on my face of, “what’s going on here?” and wonder if he needed more. Wonder if I did it wrong. Wonder if I just didn’t understand auditing well enough. Wonder if the AUDITOR didn’t understand auditing enough….etc.
It puts you in a figure-figure quandry because you know that something just isn’t right. I think that most people’s inclination is to think that something must be wrong with them.
I’ve gotten auditing by the “trained by LRH” auditors since being out and, right away, I noticed the change, right away. Higher ARC and ‘easiness’ from the auditors and more comfort for me because I could put a comm line in with the auditor and they CARED what I had to say! And they were VERY free about calling my FNs, even in the middle of things, just to make sure that I knew my needle was floating. Lovely.
So there IS something wrong with the auditing inside. But the declared SPs know how to do it per LRH. Who’s the squirrel now?
Hallelujah
@iForrest – That’s great iForrest. I too, feel that I have gained from Scn.
@Jane Doe – it’s good that your income increase, however, you are probably the exception rather than the rule. I feel there are many factors involved in one’s earning potential (e.g. type of industry, market forces, trends, etc). To say, as LRH did, that one’s income is determined solely by the individual is an over-simplification in my opinion.
@Carcha – I’m not saying “it doesn’t really work for me.” I have experienced gains in auditing and training. My point was that having a cog in session does not equate to “ability gained.” From my observation I have concluded that auditing is subjective, while training is purely objective. You have to demonstrate ability to receive an auditor certification. Not so with the auditing side. A PC can attest to Grade 0 if he “feels” he’s gained the ability as stated on the Grade Chart (as well as other technical factors). Never does he have to demonstrate that ability. This is a subjective result. This is not a judgement on whether Scn auditing or training is beneficial, it is simply an observation.
@remoteviewed – I agree. DO has always been senior to HAVE in my book.
@1984 – correct. I do feel auditing and having realizations in session can unlock human potential. But, as you state, if the person never DOES anything, well…
@Aquamarine – You know there was a time when our org’s C/S would refuse a person for auditing and give them the R-Factor that they need to training; that they would never handle what they want handled with auditing alone. I think he was spot on.
“I experienced auditing as increasing my potential, and training as increasing my actual abilities, and for me they worked together” – I totally agree, and that probably the best summation of how Scn is supposed to work.
I’ve had large, spiritual gains from both sides of the bridge which I continue to value on a daily basis, especially the ones I consider permanent. I am immensely better off than when I got into Scn. I could tell some stories, but I plead the 5th. Of course spiritual gains are subjective…….how could they be anything but? People who want me to prove my personal reality can kiss my tooshie. I never went for the super person goals, I just wanted stability and peace.
Amen Hallie Jane!
Well done, Mike.
I just completed reading Marthy’s books – ‘Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior’, and ‘What is wrong with Scientology’, and in the last book he amplifies what’s behind the phenomenon you’re describing above – the exact woof and warp of it, to copy Ron’s expression.
I highly recommend these be read by all. For the clubbed seals he uses small words to describe Scientology and the processes as laid out by LRH. Brilliantly written.
DM’s mastery and application of Black Dianetics is so simple – and that’s why he’s been able to fool so many, so long.
And MJ, you’re my choice for MC for the next Event . . .
ML
Thanks Frik. Welcome. Nice to see you here. Enjoyed your story on the African blog 🙂
PS: You have one of the coolest names EVER. South Africans have some of the best names.
Here Here! To everything you said.
Thanks Frik, I accept on the condition that no exclamation marks are used and the promo says : Absolutely no regging. Come and enjoy yourself and have a great time.
I am surprised that although there are thousands of public flooding into the new flag building, there are those that need to advertise on Facebook for a twin…are there really no “comparable terminals” champing at the bit to re-do their objectives among all the thousands?
I have renamed CoS the “Church of Fear”. This really is all that still keeps people running on the hamster wheel. I mean seriously, how many OT 8s go bouncing back in REALLY feeling “Yay!! I am going to do the objectives again!!!! So happy!!!!”? Nope, they are pissed but most are too scared to say no.
So it would seem that the current VFP is fear and deceit and it flows both ways. Staff and public too scared to say Hell NO! and lying about how enthusiastic they are about having to do this AGAIN!
As you said, Mike: “Honestly, these people deserve what they get.” Yes they do – you don’t need to be a super being to recognize when you are being hustled.
Yes Draco. When they finally wake up, the shock will be enormous but a necessary side effect of being alive.
Draco , you are right. Fear is one if the key issues here. Greetings from Joburg.
If there is no OT IX to XV to offer, then DM needs to stall them. It may take a few years to get back up the Bridge (more like pole, really) which may give him some time to come up with something that resembles who knows what the he can then sell for much much more money because now it is “fully as LRH intended.”
The New Grammar Rundown. Learn to fully remove commas, semicolons and other such items that don’t fit or don’t seem to make sense. A brilliant undercut to the Student Hit, I mean Hat.
If there were an OT IX or above, or if DM were capable of creating them, I don’t think he’d bother with GATanything. It seems to me there is much more money to be made on letting those OT’s progress at the appropriate price (higher than OTVIII) than by having them repeat lower levels. Plus, there would be people scrambling to finish the other OTlevels as well.
In my opinion the well is dry and they have nothing new to offer.
How can they be that hopeless? I could write something that could be passed off to the clubbed seals as OTIX, and it would be easy enough to forge a supporting document in LRH’s handwriting if I had DM’s cash. (It would probably be safest to use outside experts in a foreign country.)
I know I may get some boos, but I can understand this phenomenom with OT8s. Nothing stays the same and as LRH says, you either expand or contract. I did OT8 10 years ago and although I am much happier to be out of the church’s clutches, I’m not as “blown-out” as I was on the day I attested to OT8.
Scientology auditing can act like a drug. The blow-out wins that I and many others have experienced don’t seem to come from other technologies. And, I’ve tried many of them. I was discussing this exact phenomenon yesterday with a friend that also did OT8 and has tried many other things and he agrees.
I’m not at all anxious to do the SRD, but if I were in the church, I’d probably want to get super power (which I plan to co-audit soon). If the SRD were a pre-req, I’d probably do it and not hate it, as objectives are fascinating processes – especially Op Pro by Dup (which happens to be my favorite process to audit on others).
As a side-note on that, there is an article on TonyO’s site today from Jon Attack which references a report he did on LRH alleged plagiarism. There were no notes about his plagerizing objective processes – which I think were brilliant discoveries and extremely effective therapy for as-ising mental circuitry.
So the bottom line, any auditing is usually better than no auditing, and I’m sure many OT8s, in light of the absence of OT9, would do just about anything miscavige offered for the opportunity to be “blown-out” some more.
Yes, I had some incredible highs with Scn auditing. They fade, however.
I have also had an incredible high turning around from the third chairlift up a mountain to see the most beautiful scenery I have ever seen. Or when I listen to Muse or even Salvador Domingo sing Panis Angelicus with the Vienna Boys Choir. Or ….
Or walking out of a COB speech at an event.
My highest highs have never faded. And Atack may be right about the plagiarizing. If it’s all true, then Hubbard was pretty damned good at picking out a lot of valuable stuff which worked on many of us. But I was the one who paid the money, got on staff, went through the injustices, became a bit wiser, helped others. No one to “blame” or “laud” than myself. No one “did it” to me.
You’re right Sheldon. Many OT VIII’s haven’t had auditing in many years and they do want to be blown out again, just like ‘the first time” they were blown out. It is why a drug addict keeps taking drugs… looking for the same blow out experience that occurred the first time he took them.
Probably one of the reasons that “seeking the same thrill as on drugs” is on the 40 😉
I remember a Cramming Officer who used to tell his clients that “Scientology was better’n drugs”.
Actually it’s true, because I remember going ext without mind numbing effects of some hallucinogen and not being scared shitless that as Ingo says that I was gonna “Kiss the Earth Goodbye”.
Then there was the time that me and a good friend who was “old” OT VII were in total telepathic communication bitching to each other what morons they had in Qual while waiting for our respective cramming interviews.
Of course none of these abilities remain stable unless you can practice them.
Ya know “practice makes perfect” 😉
Thang is that there are very few “OTs” in the Church these days that I’d actually call OT to practice them with.
In fact I remember reading a “Success Story” written by someone who allegedly completed it saying that they felt more like themselves.
Obviously never been run on LX Lists as this person had to go all the way to “OT VIII” to get a valence shift.
I remember one so called “OT VIII” who came to our apartment with her “OT V” husband in tow trying to sell us on the “basics” and me and my wife applying our rehabilitation of intention ability on them intending them to find the nearest exit. After we spent an hour listening them both drone on about how great the “basics” because all the semi colons were corrected or something like that and having our comm continually cut when we objected.
All we did was say it was time for them to both leave. Nicely. But they both left as if the apartment was on fire 🙂
Guess I coulda wrote that one up for Advance’s “OT Phenomenon” but I decided to pass.
This is what they’re calling “OTs” these days.
As far as I’m concerned mosta ’em are nothing but a buncha toasted marshmallows.
As you guys say they are probably trying to get the gains they shoulda gotten on their OT Levels and this is why they are rerunning their objectives and redoing their purif.
Obviously something they missed. Something that could actually be handled by doing the original IV Rundown which handled by passed cases like those who go all the way to OT VIII to get in valence.
But they don’t deliver those “old” OT levels any more. Having replaced them with the “new OT” levels which are actually *pre OT* levels so it’s no wonder that they have no concept of what OT really is.
Then there is “OT VIII” which is supposed to be an actual OT Level but like most of levels delivered in the Church these days has been sabotaged like “New OT I” which is basically nothing but a ruds session.
The original hand written one woulda made someone actually aware that such a state exists and would have extroverted the being before he dove back into R6.
In my opinion the biggest Tech Degrade ever was totally overlooked by the new masters of the Church. Probably intentionally.
New C/S 53 question:
“Seeking the same thrill obtained from completing OT VIII?”
I understand that viewpoint. Don’t agree with the concept that any trained auditor who has done all the way through to class VI and OT VIII would even vaguely consider that they are not fully able to expand their own
wins in life by simply living and expanding. “One begins to win by living, rather than lose.”
Have you done the original OT levels yet? I spent a good six months of persistent F/N on original OT IV.
Probably done with it now, but I don’t feel like calling it a done deal yet.
In the early 90’s when I went down to do my L-11, during the set ups my class XII auditor put a little card in front of me and said, “the C/S would like to indicate that your grade III is not flat.
With less than 100th of a second comm lag I looked straight at the auditor and said very adamantly, “FUCK YOU.” I started laughing, the auditor started laughing and said my needle was floating and he’d get that back to the C/S.
That’s exactly the way I would respond if some asshole C/S told me I was unflat on objectives. Of course, in today’s wild world of miscavology, I’d get ordered to receive sec checks.
The more you exercise your own innate ability to look, the more mind blowing wins you’ll have just with life. That’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it:)
I fondly remember giving some PC the R-Factor that we were just going to verify her objectives back at AO and getting a pair of emeter cans tossed my way just like Ron said happens sometimes on a wrong item or goal 🙂
Of course after a rapid M5 on a repair list we scratched that sucker off the program.
Must say that PCs back then were spunkier than they are now.
Now it’s the C/S has determined that you’re an out ethics piecea shit for falsely attesting to OT VIII and that you have to redo your purif.
And the PC going “yessum boss”.
Reminds me of a movie I saw today – Twelve Years A Slave, though in some cases, it’s longer.
MJ,
New name for the Church.
Slavotology
Proper name is Church of Dave. First commandment: “I will place no gods before him.”
Good for you LDW!
LDW – Well, thank you for relieving part of my undelivered comm. For a while I have thought of proposing a “TR FUCK YOU”. The training purpose: to teach the student to stand up for himself. Patter: coach alternates randomly between rational statements and completely insane ones. It is a pass when the student can discern between the two, when the TR may be appropriate, when not, and can deliver the TR with all previous TRs in. I see now that you already have it covered, so I will sleep a bit more easily tonight. – Carcha
LDW, I laugh at that, but I kind of did the same thing when my Clear state was invalidated in session. I’m not quite sure what I said to the auditor, or which direction the cans went, but I was past him and down the hall in seconds flat after that inval came out of his mouth.
Right LDW. One can’t escape the fact of deciding to do something and then, doing it. It’s a done. The lying, fraud, technical malpractice, extortion and oppression is the source of much bitterness and is a valid, major, mitigating factor in the mental health of most parishioners. It’s reality also. That said, I still love the wins and gains I’ve had and have given others. I think the concept of decompression may be a period of time needed to sort that out. Taking the time to validate the good deeds, intentions, generosity, help and wins of ourselves is important, to balance the horror, of the evil that’s been perpetrated and intentionally hidden. I would say it’s MORE important.
“One begins to win by living, rather than lose.”
Lovely sentiment Les.
Sheldon, I love your POV. Very balanced. Thanks.
Scientology, and that means LRH and the Church under DM, sells the idea of perfectio:. “No somatics (ever), can communicate with anyone on any subject at will, no pictures left, total cause over MEST, no ser facs, never again PTS, etc. etc.” If you have not achieved this state, you have case that MUST be addressed. Of course, doubting that one can be perfect is also a flaw, which then must be addressed. No one is allowed to look around and ask, “But I have never seen anyone achieve that level of perfection. LRH did not achieve it either?” Heresy is not allowed…and must immediately be handled.
I agree with you Mike. One starts to wonder if you can help anyone who is willing to redo the bridge two or three times, and at such terrible costs. How robotic can one become? Truth is, they are convinced that total perfection can and will be attained in this life time.
I should also add that I do not have any animosity at all about my involvement with SCN. I made gains and see the whole experience as an essential part of my overall path to spiritual knowledge. I do not believe, however, that I will get there with SCN alone. I also freely admit that I clearly wanted that “perfection”, but really in an egotistical or self-serving way, which is really why I so freely bought into the hype and pitch of LRH and SCN. there is no blame at all.
BINGO, Jonsty. And spot on.
By definition, how can something that is squirrel work anyway, the Kool Aid obviously dulls the senses, IQ, and the sense of what Is real. You only didn’t get the expected gains because DM stopped or invalidated your gains. Don’t be so stupid. Your wins were real and no one has the right to say they weren’t. Step away from the invalidation.
New bumper sticker: SAY NO TO DM.
GTBO, you are precisely correct. MJ, Say NO to *anyone* who invalidates you.
Hear ye, hear ye! Step right up to the magic wheel ladies and gentlemen. Come one, come all. Round and round it goes; where it stops nobody knows.
I’m not OT8, but I was CSd to redo purif and objectives during the previous “blanket CS”. I did the purif, but I didn’t need it so it was very difficult. An overrun for sure.
Later with an independent auditor we were figuring out where I was. We took a look and I took a good look at this and the answer was no, I don’t need to redo objectives. I had really good, stable wins from it back in the 90s and I had no interest in doing it anymore. I probably had a big fn there and we continued on with my bridge.
That seems like the right “standard” way to do it. I’m not sure what these people are doing. I think of the lecture where lrh talks about how a PC will keep coming back and coming back as long as he thinks auditing will occur, even if he’s not getting anywhere. I think its the one where he says “don’t fool with it, just audit”. It seems like thats what is going on with these people. They got something from Scientology in the past and they are hanging out in case it happens again. An OT8 at my org said she was waiting for 9 and 10.
I think it is easier for these VIIs and VIIIs to confront doing a lower level auditing action on the Bridge inside the comfy, cushy Bubble than to create big effects out in the real world, unshielded and unprotected by the cult mindset and where they fall way short of being truly “cause over life” and are therefore exposed as plain, ordinary folk leading not so spectacular lives.
Yes Steph, I always thought the true test of OT, or being cause, is what one can do out in the world of action. Great examples of this are athletes, artists and inventors whose works enhance or inspire others who have no knowledge of that person’s beliefs or philosophy. To paraphrase LRH, it’s all about ability.
You said it, MJ!
You are probably on to something here, MJ. With all the effort being diverted to “Status”, it becomes too easy to jump on the bandwagon of the church, and claim one is causative by supporting the already best solution going. Easy to do – just throw some money and a bit of time at it and look real up-toned about it (and occasionally go up a bit more of the bridge).
Yep, I can see that working for some people, who’s capabilities I question.
Bingo! Well put, Steph.
I had a “cog” the other day that what is wrong with Scientology or any practice, religion, group etc, is when it demands you give up responsibility for your own state. You have to trust to learn, but if your self determinism isn’t eventually given back to you then you can get stuck. These people are for the rest of their lives waiting for the church and Scientology to take them to some higher place. Its not different than other religions. That’s not how scientology works I think. You should do it , get what it has to offer and then help others get that too if you choose to. It shouldn’t be an eternity of never arriving. If you look at the grade chart and read stuff like from clear to eternity it doesn’t seem like that is how it was intended.
I agree. To me, real Scn. is about strengthening my self determinism and point of view and then, living life to a fuller extent as a result. The concepts of “in ethics” and the code of honor have been terribly perverted by the rcs. There’s an ill defined mercurial definition floating around, depending on who wants something from you. It’s quite ridiculous and is not LRH. To me, the moment of going out code of honor, is a moment of mini death and is antipathetic to the road to YOUR OWN truth. I use real Scn as a spiritual path for my own and others benefit……that’s all. LRH once said that auditing is for use. A person at any case level can utilize it for their own benefit if it indicates to them. If someone is really living life, then charge can get bypassed any time on any thing. This doesn’t invalidate previous gains, it just means that spiritual growth can and should continue, if that is desired, on one’s own determinism.
Chris, atheism is as much a “belief” system as any other. Nothing wrong with it, but still a belief system. It also can neither be proven nor disproven.
I come from way back, prior to the 80s. Things I learned then and experiences I had are with me still. So are more than a few good friends…and a wife. I always realized that my wins were MY wins, and didn’t ascribe them to LRH, the auditor or the C/S. But they were real to me…which is all that counts, IMHO. I also realized that I did not have to “prove” anything to anyone. Awareness, for instance, can’t be proven by science. Nor can Love nor Happiness. Is that then to say they don’t exist? Or aren’t true? Science is an ever changing subject, “right” today, “disproven” tomorrow. Constant flux.
I go by what *I* know. If it’s incorrect, life will show that to me and I’ll change my view. But relying on what others believe is a sure fire way to get lost in life.
Good one, Thegman!
Greta
Nonsense. Atheism is the rejection of a point of view. It does not have different deities, LRH, Jesus or Mithras, It is non belief, not alternative belief.
I’ve suspect that many of these Scnists are addicted to auditing – any auditing will do. I’ve known OT8s who have CSW’d the Ls C/S requesting that they re-do the Ls! As well, they start picking up various FPRD forms for other dynamics. I’ve often wondered “What the hell do you run, once you’ve eliminated your case?” That doesn’t seem to stop these session junkies.
Another possibility is that their doingness on Scn is an automaticity. It’s just something they “do” all the time, doesn’t matter what IT is, to them its ALL good, whether they need it or not. Better to “do” Scn, than to confront life, I suppose.
Hey, I actually heard someone say they didn’t want to do those stupid Objectives again, mocking “Oooooo, ‘Touch that wall.'” Then a MINUTE later said they were going to do it in the HGC to get it over and done with faster. Now THAT is some kinda crazy.
Look at that COB. Walk over to him. With your right hand, punch him as hard as you can. Thank you.
I guess their considerations were “handled” and their ethics were gotten “in.”
+1
Oh my gawd, MJ! Seriously, who are you? You crack me up so badly. Often! I need good laughs; so thank you!
My CS these days is to natter and J&D to a major stable win.
(Mike, did you scratch a post of mine earlier? It disappeared.)
Always glad to add a little levity. I’d love to hear DM tell a joke one day, even a dirty one. He needs to seriously lighten up, right Mike?
They no longer have considerations. Now they have re-considerations!
I must say though, my ex Sea Org 27 year staffer conclusion is way more extreme.
I an a reverted atheist today.
I think, since we are not souls in bodies, and thus we honestly cannot even eject as soul astronauts, that in fact no telepathy, no telekinesis, no supernatural abilities are even expectable by any practice, not just Scientology.
Tech Downgrades places lack of results on Qual or the preclears/students.
I think those two reasons for lack of results are both wrong. .
Nobody in human history has convincingly demonstrated any supernatural soul astronaut abilities.
It’s wrong to blame anyone for not having achieved supernatural OT abilities.
Chuck, I’m not saying this to say I’m right and your wrong, but did you ever go exterior or run a past life incident etc? What do you think of stuff like that? I think with time away these things get less real, but some things did happen for me. Maybe Scientology isn’t the ultimate explanation for it, but something is still there for me. I don’t think it was my imagination.
As someone famous once said, “show me the money!” 😉
Well, if Jerrye Albert is looking for a comparable twin, she ought to look in the scum pond nead my house. I was going to say the psyche ward but that really gives a bad name to people looking for real help.
Also. I did VII twice. Just so ya know, I know what kinda crazy that says about me.
What is the story on Jerrye Albert?
She’s JoJo Zawawi’s mom, Jane Doe. ’nuff said. I’d be a little bit crazy too.
Mike,
Maybe because these VIIs and VIIIs who continue to redo their Bridges know they DIDN’T get the fully ext thing on L’s or the levitating wins on VII and VIII they dreamed of they are now being played by regges as having “falsely attested” and this is their amends. Do it again and this time DON’T LIE ABOUT IT! Most reading this know that responsibility is blame inside David Miscavige’s cob cult. The indoctrination is Suppression from inside the church is “putting ethics in” and exposing of that evil by those who found their way out of the church is “evil and deserving of every bad thing that befalls them”. If only these “OTs” cared about the effects all of this is having on the greater world than the teeny, tiny, minuscule one they keep telling themselves is the only enlightened one on the planet. If there is true enlightenment to be found through LRH tech these are NOT the people who are finding it as they are as the picture you chose for this article so aptly shows simply running around in circles. I’m fine with someone doing that, it’s their choice but I’m NOT fine with them promoting some holier than thou understanding of the world and the people in it when the result in fact is only viewed as such by a few watching the wheel spin ’round and ’round and ’round. “Pioneers who are forging the future path for the rest to follow; the braver, the most able, the most resilient” is how many of them view themselves. Indeed. They may have once been on a path to higher awareness; when is their EP going to be true freedom that is obtainable – the freedom to Keep personal integrity really in to honestly observe, to say what you’ve observed and take care TO observe – and find the freedom that this is.
Gayle, I blew down reading your comment. I feel like I just had a session and I’m not being sarcastic here. I think you may be on to something that the way the registrars get OT’s to re-do their lower Bridges yet again has to do with the guilt trip of, “You falsely attested, you out ethics bum!” And of course, being OT,they would want to appear responsible and ethical, so they would “take responsibility for their overt” and re-do it all again. And yes, they shouldn’t promote this holier-than-thou attitude and that they are the more enlightened pioneers forging the path for others to take etc. They are the majorly LESS enlightened because they choose not to see. They can’t see the truth and can’t have the truth. Their service facs won’t let them. They sunk so much money and time and blood, sweat, tears, in short, their lives into this, that to find out they were lied to and mislead now, would only make them wrong. So they suck it up and keep on the hampster wheel re-doing everything again, over and over and over. They deserve what they get.
But that is one of the major points. If I was OT VIII then I would no longer have any service facs, would I? And if I were totally aware and at cause over even part of my life I would say hang on. I graduated university and now I must go back to grade school? And I must pay for it? Again? What fucking guarantee does this product come with anyway? It reminds me yet again of the story of the emperors new clothes… Sometimes when it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck…. maybe you gotta admit that it’s a duck.
The question is, “What does OT really mean?” Is it “a state of exterior” or is it “understanding and smarts and ethics”? Similarly, is a personal state of elevated spiritual being for oneself, some sort of guarantee for good relations with others and lasting friendships? If so, how does that come about? If not, how so? Which is the better goal of the two, or can they be separated? To be less esoteric, if “an OT” wished to become “a historian” (“an historian” in deference to any proper Brits reading here), would the OT have to read a lot of history books to become knowledgeable, even presuming he could read them more quickly and make more of them than the average individual, thanks to being OT? To be blunt: does OT guarantee ethical behavior, or is it the other way around? Or is it both, working in conjunction with each other? What is “Ethics”? Is it a worthwhile goal? If so, why … and how? Is Scientology principally philosophy, or is it principally technical?
Reading all of these comments about what auditing and Scientology actually are (spiritually speaking) is exactly why the church has been going in the wrong direction for so many years, maybe even from the beginning. It ran itself as a business, not a spiritual enlightenment group. And so many people are unaware of what the technology actually is.
You hear often “I just read this _____ and totally blew charge like it was a real session!!!!!!”
But people blow, move and create charge and energy everyday. All day. In fact, you are doing something with energy as you sit and read this comment.
Holding a set of cans doesn’t automatically put you in “charge blowing mode.” In session, you are doing something you do at any point of the day, even by yourself. Just understanding how to blow charge makes you better able to do it.
To answer the question above, you can create sur facs at any point of your spiritual journey, even an hour after completing Grade 4. You could even recreate yourself a brand-spanking new reactive mind after going Clear, if you wanted.
For the “still-believers” in the spiritual side of the tech, you should know that “Completing OTVII” doesn’t make you invincible for all eternity, as the church liked to sell you.
You can do whatever the hell you want, at any point of your existence, anywhere you are, both good and bad.
Getting rid of any “unwanted charge” as auditing was designed to do, just helps make all the above more enjoyable.
Anon – you are so right. I had a big cognition just reading your post. Will somebody say, “End of session” for crying out loud? 😀 😀 😀 xoxo
Anon – Right. Self-determinism is the name of the game, just that in Scientology, it is no longer limited to things like which restaurant you want or which movie to see. Auditing is, as you say, a very specific action (set of actions) to get rid of unwanted charge, and to resolve (with some knowledge of the data in Scn) areas one was not able to resolve as they occurred. (I didn’t think anyone was going to reply – I appreciate yours. This blog really isn’t good for continuing discussion, so I won’t be checking back here, I just wanted to ack your reply,) – Carcha