I note at the outset, I am not a chemist or biologist.
But I can read.
This post was prompted by the ongoing saga of Narconon’s implosion and many recent comments that niacin can be dangerous. I didn’t pay a lot of attention as the comments usually went along with noting that it can be dangerous to sit in the sauna for too long. And my view of that is Duh. Walking across the street is dangerous too. The claims for the wonders of the Purif may be typical scientology style hype, but the program itself seems generally benign and helpful. How can exercising, going in the sauna, sleeping well and taking vitamins harm anyone?
But then in the course of doing something completely disrelated (gathering information about a new drug) a leading medical expert made mention of the fact that niacin was NOT considered a safe treatment for elevated cholesterol levels like it used to be. Then another mentioned the same thing.
It piqued my curiosity, so I did some quick research.
Let me note as a preamble that L. Ron Hubbard has taken things that fit his theories and run with them in the past. He has then presented them as “researched fact.” All the way back to Dianetics.
But just because he asserted them, and even claimed them to be the result of “scientific testing,” does not make them fact.
A History of Man
Perhaps the most egregious and easily demonstrated example is the “Piltdown Man” found in his book History of Man.
For the unfamiliar, the so-called Piltdown Man was a hoax, perpetrated for 40 years. It was eventually exposed in 1953.
But when History of Man (then called “What To Audit”) was written in 1952 it was still part of “accepted science.”
So, Hubbard took it – hook, line and sinker – and presented it in his book as “researched fact” discovered through a great deal of auditing of past lives.
The book’s subtitle is:
A LIST AND DESCRIPTION OF THE PRINCIPAL INCIDENTS TO BE FOUND IN A HUMAN BEING
The first sentence of the Foreword is:
This is a cold-blooded and factual account of your last sixty trillion years.
And he goes on to say:
This work is honest research, done with considerable care. And it will bear up under survey by any competent auditor or investigator.
And here is what it says in chapter 4:
The Piltdown Man
Man’s first real Manhood is found in the PILTDOWN, a creature not an ape, yet not entirely a Man. It is so named not because it is accurately the real Piltdown Man but because it has some similarity.
The PILTDOWN contains freakish acts of strange “logic,” of demonstrating dangerous on one’s fellows, of eating one’s wife and other somewhat illogical activities. The PILTDOWN teeth were ENORMOUS and he was quite careless as to whom and what he bit and often very much surprised at the resulting damage.
Obsessions about biting, efforts to hide the mouth and early familial troubles can be found in the PILTDOWN. It is a wonderful area in which to locate GE overt acts.
In case you wondered, this section is in the “Basics” version of the book (ie current editions), even though I pointed out to Miscavige that the Piltdown Man had subsequently been proven a sham. But of course, it would be heresy to “alter” an LRH writing. There never was anything like a “Piltdown Man.” But L. Ron Hubbard’s “research” says there was, so like the earth being 6,000 years old to fundamentalist christians, to scientologists there was most definitely a Piltdown Man. They know this because LRH discovered it in his research of the “whole track.”
But that is not the subject of this post, it is simply an easily understood illustration of how something could be grabbed by Hubbard, inserted into his “discoveries” and then asserted to be part of his “research.”
Niacin
Now, let’s take a look at niacin.
Until a few years ago, niacin was considered to be beneficial in controlling cholesterol levels, though it was known to cause skin flushes and other relatively minor side effects. The flushing could be avoided by gradiently increasing doses or adding other compounds such as laropiprant which dilates blood vessels.
Since the 1950’s niacin had been considered a safe and effective vitamin. In the 1970’s (and I have NOT spent a lot of time looking into this) not long before the unveiling of the “Sweat Pgm” and its successor the Purification program, there was research being done into the use of niacin to “cure” criminal drug addicts. I don’t want to spend $50 to buy the book that contains the reference I found on Google because it is not that important, but if you search Samuel Yochelson (of the infamous St. Elizabeth’s hospital in DC) and his 3 volumes called The Criminal Personality and the niacin studies are mentioned. Published in the mid 70’s, I would not be surprised if Hubbard had read about this at some point.
But that is speculation.
What is not speculation are the following passages contained in Clear Body, Clear Mind about niacin.
NIACIN RESEARCH AND RADIATION
I conducted some research using niacin in 1950. At that time we referred to niacin as nicotinic acid and the beginning dosage used was 200 mg. (milligrams).
This research was very interesting. Odd manifestations occurred when this vitamin was administered to individuals. Its most startling effect was that it would turn on, in a red flush, a sunburn on the person’s body in an exact pattern of a bathing suit! These were very neat patterns. The bathing suit outline was unmistakable.
Coincidentally, in the late 1940’s and early 50’s there were extensive studies done in the US to solve niacin deficiency and subsequently the discovery in 1955 that it helped with cholesterol.
NIACIN REACTION—1956
In 1956 I put this vitamin to use again.
At that time there was a lot of bomb testing going on and general radiation exposure. We were working with individuals who had been subjected to atomic tests, atomic accidents and, in at least one case, to materials that had been part of an old atomic explosion. We were engaged in salvaging these people, handling the mental image pictures, stress and upset attendant on these experiences and we succeeded.
But in 1956 niacin was reacting differently on people than it had in 1950, and the effects were more severe.
People on the research program in 1950 had experienced only past sunburn flushes. In 1956 people on the research program, while experiencing a flush, were also experiencing nausea, skin irritations, hives, colitis and other uncomfortable manifestations, on the same vitamin and in the same dosages as had been used in 1950.
There are no specifics here, just generalized statements and reference to people who had been “subjected to atomic tests”(really?), “atomic accidents”(?) and one person who had been “subjected to” materials that had been part of an old atomic explosion. From this, he concluded that niacin was “running out” radiation.
Yet, the known side effects of niacin include not only skin flushing, but also itching, dry skin, skin rashes, eczema, indigestion, nausea and liver toxicity among other things (see Wiki entry). That did NOT change from 1950. But somehow, he reached the conclusion that there was something new and different happening. This is not explained other than the conclusion he then draws:
Niacin, then, apparently seems to have a catalytic effect on running out radiation exposure. It seems to give it a kick and run it through. It will often cause a very hot flush and prickly, itchy skin, which can last up to an hour or longer. It may also bring on chills or make one feel tired. Medical thinking has been that niacin itself turned on a flush. Something called “niacinamide” was then invented to keep from turning on this flush. Niacin all by itself does not turn on any flush. What it starts to do is immediately run out sunburn or radiation.
“Apparently” now becomes a fact. It “seems” to do X. Also now a “fact” as you can see by the declarative sentence at the end of the paragraph.
And here there is an absolutely false statement that niacin all by itself does not turn on any flush.
Hubbard had a lot to say about logic and the ability to think. This is a wonderful example of illogics that are the exact sort of things that are used to test logic. “If A is true and B is not true, is C true, false or uncertain?”
As a logical progression of thought, this paragraph is a flunk.
But whether this is real science or not, doesn’t much matter. Any more than it matters whether fundamentalist christians believe the world is 6,000 years old.
But let’s continue just a but to get to another point about the drugs niacin “unleashes”?
UNLEASHING DRUGS AND TOXINS
Taken in sufficient quantities niacin appears to break up and unleash LSD, marijuana and other drugs and poisons from the tissues and cells. It can rapidly release LSD crystals into the system and send a person who has taken LSD on a “trip.” (One fellow who had done the earlier Sweat Program for a period of months, and who believed he had no more LSD in his system, took 100 milligrams of niacin and promptly turned on a restimulation of a full-blown LSD experience.)
Again, it “appears to” do something, and that then becomes Hubbard’s researched “fact.”
He then cites the extent of the “research” that proves niacin removes toxic substances from the body: One person who had an LSD flashback after taking 100mg of niacin.
I don’t really think it matters much whether the claims are true or false. Who cares if people get some sort of gain out of it?
Well, here is the kicker.
It DOES matter if there is potential harm involved.
And this is where the story gets interesting.
Tredaptive
In 2008 Merck marketed a drug called Tredaptive which was a combination of niacin and laropiprant (enough to prevent flushing because it is an uncomfortable side effect).
It was approved in Europe and 40 other countries around the world, but not approved by the FDA for sale in the United States.
As a result of it being on the market and consumed by tens of thousands of people around the world for some years, broad tests were able to be conducted on its efficacy and side effects.
In fact, niacin had never before been clinically and scientifically tested on a large number of people. Not since its introduction in the 1950’s.
Nearly 26,000 were enrolled in the test and studied over 3 years. The full report on this study can be found in the New England Journal of Medicine but it is pretty dense and hard to read.
So here is a summary of the findings and some commentary by prominent doctors reported on by AP.
The highlighting is mine.
Of course, there are many variables. This is niacin WITH an anti-flushing agent. But the concern is about the niacin, not the anti-flushing compound mixed with it.
The people on the test were taking niacin for longer periods of time than one would be on the Purif Pgm.
But on the other hand, the people in this test were being given 1500-2000mg of niacin daily — and the “new” Purif REQUIRES people to get up to 5000mg of niacin a day.
These findings are pretty startling. This is science, based on real research, not what “appears to be” or one person who had an LSD flashback:
For every 200 people that we treat with niacin, there is one excess death.
Higher rates of bleeding, infections and other problems
A 9 percent increase in the risk of death
Higher rates of gastrointestinal and muscle problems, infections and bleeding.
More diabetics lost control of their blood sugar
More new cases of diabetes among niacin users.
Higher rate of infections and a trend toward higher rates of serious bleeding.
Responsible doctors all over the world have, as a result, stopped using niacin.
The question here is if anyone who is currently using the Purification program — whether it is scientology, narconon or the “detox” pgms for vets — is paying attention? Or taking any sort of precautions to protect against negative health outcomes?
The answer is almost certainly No. They don’t need anything other than pronouncements from L. Ron Hubbard — and they transcend science.
But what if his pronouncements were lifted from what was thought to be sound medical thinking AT THE TIME? And it is presented as “researched” and “scientific” when it really is not? It doesnt matter to scientologists — the science he took from others became HIS research as soon as he published it, and now it’s the law of God that cannot be changed. Because to change it now would be to violate “Keeping Scientology Working.” Even though the science from 30 or 50 years ago is now known to be faulty.
Flights of fancy like the Piltdown Man and many other things don’t have much impact on anyone. But this might.
As a result of this being presented as proven fact people are being fed high doses of what has now proven to be unsafe.
I fear the arrogance of scientology is going to (or perhaps already has) result in people being hurt.
And as a final note, isn’t it incredibly ironic that scientology constantly rails against the FDA as being the agents of the psychs and “Big Pharma” and that they are letting things “slip through” that are going to harm people — yet the FDA prevented Tredaptive from being sold in the US. But alas, they have no oversight over the use of niacin in the Purif. If they did, it would not be approved and scientology would be demanding a “fast track loophole” for it.
At the very least, the doctors (mostly local scientologists) who rubber stamp the approvals for people to do the Purif should be made aware of this. Of course, if they protested or “stopped people moving up the Bridge” they would be declared and some other doctor would just be found to replace them. Such is the bubble world of “we know all, you wogs know nothing” scientology.
Perhaps this blog posting will help even one person to prevent suffering unnecessary harm. If so, it has been worthwhile.
Well, I just came across this, super late I know. But here is the funny thing: not only did Scientology NOT reduce the amount of Niacin but… wait for it: all Scientologists had to RE-Do the Purif! Ta dah!
Even those already higher on the Bridge, since DM figured out somehow, that People were not winning as they shoud and that was probably because they had not achieved the EP all the way down to the Purif.
Also, before only people who had used drugs or heavy medication had to do the Purif, but not anymore! Now EVERYONE has to do it.
So to answer Your question Mike: no, no changes about Niacin and the purif. Quite the contrary.
Now I wish I had read this in 2015 as since then both my mother and my sister did the Purif 2 times more EACH and they are both yes, diabetic… my other sister is almost diabetic (on her way there, will of course not take medicine to help prevent it. Nope, going for auditing. Because that worked so well for my OT V mother and Clear sister…)
So frustrating.
I tried to send them articles about niacin but was hit back with “I don’t understand that you are doing this, LRH has all the answers, why look elsewhere” and I am chocking with frustration…
Thanks for doing all this for us and teaching us to really LOOK and not LISTEN.
Same thing happened to me and my brother back in the late 90’s
The truth is that the studies that don’t include the anti-flushing medication don’t show the same results, and never have. There is no data that conclusively links Niacin to the dangers presented here.
Niacin as a supplement is safe for people who don’t have a medication or disease that is specifically exacerbated by Niacin, and just because the study wasn’t intending to look at the effect of the medication, doesn’t mean it’s scientifically sound to conclude that Niacin is dangerous. That’s blatantly ignoring numerous factors that would lead to the results they had.
The flushing effect that Niacin causes is the the body’s way of handling excess Niacin. Turn that function off and suddenly your body isn’t handling Niacin the way it should and knows how to. This also creates a stigma around a very important nutrient and supplement that is neither scientifically sounds not complete in its scope.
I applaud the research done and the connections made, though I believe the conclusion is horridly incomplete and therefor invalid as something to be shared and labelled as “dangerous”. That is an irresponsible use of information.
it all started when I was about 38. I could hear rushing sound in my ears I had palpitations and dizziness. as time went on this got worse and worse until in the mornings I had difficulty standing up straight or getting out of bed without falling on the floor. Heart palpitations was so severe that it was painful and lasted for 30 seconds at a time. I had headaches and would take painkillers so I could go to About 6 years my doctor told me I could drop dead at any moment because I had high cholesterol and high level of triglycerides in my blood. The doctor put me on statins fish oil and niacin. About one month later I lost my insurance because I got laid off. I thought to myself I’m going to die what can I do. I did some research and found that niacin does miracles for high cholesterol and triglycerides. I was still having symptoms that I had before like the dizziness and the heart palpitations. I started out buying Niacin from the store. I started off with a thousand mg of niacin in the morning afternoon and night. Within a week I could feel a difference I felt like I was recovering. Then two weeks then a month and 3 months. 3 months later I was completely symptoms free. I stopped taking it off and on but as soon as I felt the dizziness and the heart palpitations and it’s rushing in my ears start to come back I would start taking it again. I’ve been taking it 1000 mg in the morning 1000 mg at night or when I remember to. My symptoms are coming back again I haven’t taken it for a while and I’m getting my dizziness back severe. By the way a year after taking my niacin I went back to a doctor took the blood test and said my cholesterol and triglycerides were fine. So now that my symptoms are back I have been taking 2000 mg in the morning and 2000 at night sometimes I forget. My dizziness is pretty bad right now when I get up in the mornings or lay down at night. It reminds me of a few nights I had after drinking heavily where it felt like I was riding on top and got this rush like I was falling for about 15 seconds, the same thing I got before when I had severe symptoms. So I just took 3000 mg and I plan on taking 2,000 in the morning and afternoon from now on. My dad used to tell me how bad statins were how he was prescribed statins. As far as nice and goes being dangerous I think taking niacin is help me live and if I didn’t take it I would have surely died. So without it I feel that I cannot survive now. I guess it’s been about 6 years of me taking niacin and I’m still here. I am about 230 lb and I am now 55 years old. I hope this help someone positively it may just be me I lucked out or it is truly a miracle vitamin I don’t know to each his own and I wish everyone well. Thank you.
https://www.superfoodly.com/niagen-nicotinamide-riboside-side-effects-nad-benefits/
the irony that a niacin supplement closely related to nicotinic acid ould prove to be one of the most high tech anti aging supplements you can take in the 21st century is fascinating
Mike,i remember when watching 1950’s horror/sci-fi flicks there was always some scientist character who would make a comment in the course of the film like:
“it appears the alien spider creature ingests highly radio active materials, like this chunk of uranium ore here, and where is would KILL an earth creature, this alien creature actually GROWS larger. I’m sorry Mr President, General Hatcher. I’m afraid it’s a Scientific Fact, if you use the A-Bomb on that giant spider in the desert approaching Los Angeles, it can only grow larger. You won’t be killing it, you will be FEEDING it.”
I think it’s pretty clear where LRH got his style of scientific pontificating and proof making. Hollywood movie logic.
I don’t want to play being the Devil’s advocate here ; I have been obviously kid of “defending” LRH in relation to the Purif RD , but after Daniel’s intelligent reply to my posts on ionizing energy -radiation- I observed some angles that I hadn’t observed before not because I lacked the science of it , but just because I really never gave much thought to it.
Radiation is the movement of energy from one position to another. It can be , as it usually is , in the form of electromagnetic waves such as visible light , infrared , ultraviolet , gamma rays , etc ; or in the form of traveling particles such a beta , alpha , and neutrino particles. Specifically ionizing radiation (the one considered harmful to human biology in sufficient amounts) is an energy flow (as a wave or particles) whose frequency is so high (the vibrational characteristic of the wave or particle) that upon hitting atoms in matter ( or in living tissue) it can knock out the electrons from their atoms leaving that atom electrically charged which is called an ion. As nature seek to balance itself as in the phenomena of electricity , those ions will have the tendency to react with other atoms or molecules to gain electrical stability. Those ions thus produced , also called Free radicals , can interact and alter the chemistry of the cells which can result in an alteration of its function.
Those ions or Radicals can also affect the structure of the DNA , whose function is not only genetic but is actually sort of the master program for the body , where detailed instructions for body functions are “stored”. The ionizing radiation can also directly interact with the DNA itself by hitting the nucleus of the cells. This can develop into cancer. So , once the ionizing radiation transfer its energy to other particles , then that’s it . The particle can either interact at chemical reactions (I really don’t have a clue as to what happen with those beta or Alpha particles once they transfer their energy) or if the radiation was in the form of an electromagnetic flow , then once the energy has been transferred to an electron or whatever , then that’s it.
So looking at all this in a new unit of time , I really don’t have a clue how to scientifically explain these quotes from the 1979 edition of LRH’s “Clear Body , Clear Mind” :
“On the Purification program, findings seem to bear out that there is a factor related to
radiation that produces the greatest exudation of it and that is the sweating itself.
Radiation is apparently enormously water-soluble as well as water removable. According to
researchers, one merely has to take a hose to a building surface or a road to wash the radiation
off of it. This factor is well known to defense trained personnel.”
I know that water can shield radiation , not to “wash it out” as such. And I can’t really explain the “greatest exudation” of an already transferred energy manifestation. It is not like they can be “radiated” back. It is not stored but absorbed. Next quote :
“But the interesting part of it is that it comes to a point where it doesn’t turn on a flush. This
doesn’t happen by conditioning of the body, that is not what occurs. It runs something out.
What does it run out? We knew, from 1950, that it ran out sunburn, which is a radiation burn.
And in 1956 the symptoms those on the research program were experiencing—the nausea,
vomiting, skin irritations, colitis and nasal disturbances which accompany radiation
sickness—were also discharging with the administration of niacin.”
“Niacin in 1956 was no longer just running out sunburn. It was running out something which
exactly paralleled radiation sickness.”
“Niacin, then, apparently seems to have a catalytic effect on running out radiation exposure. It
seems to give it a kick and run it through.”
I have been for 2 sleepless nights trying to come up for a logical explanation of how it is possible to “run” radiation out ? How can an energy that has already been used to do work can be taken away ? It doesn’t makes any sense. How come a bath-suit pattern can show up again even years after the exposure to the ultraviolet radiation of the sun ?
Can anybody trained in physics and/or Biophysics has any sensible explanation for this ? And what hypothesis can you come up with to explain the apparent manifestations of radiation sickness while doing the program , and those patterns showing up ?
Best regards ,
Peter
No idea about the sunburn, though my thought is it has to do with blood/white platelets going to the source of an injury or infection to heal/protect. Sunburn, like any other burn is going to result in the body doing what it can to heal the damage (burn). I don’t know if there is some sort of stimulation of those cells by niacin and they are tricked into thinking burning is happening again? I commented about this earlier, but nobody seems to have the answer or wanted to respond.
As for the manifestations of “radiation sickness” I don’t think there are any manifestations that were not known side effects of niacin from back in the early 50’s. Nobody knows what doses were given and to how many people in his 1950 “test” and how those numbers (if there were indeed any numbers at all) line up with the 1956 “testing.” That he didn’t see nausea etc in 1950 could be for numerous reasons and there will never be any way of knowing as there are no records and not even any details given at all about what was done.
And yet there are statements of scientific certainty that are based on those nebulous tests. It’s really hard to know anything for certain other than one fact. There is no scientific certainty that can be assumed from any of these “tests” or “results.”
Yes Mike, Niacin taken in far larger doses than recommended by the federal government has been shown to significantly increase the number and effectiveness of neutrophils (white blood cells) to target infections. This has been shown in cases of staph, MRSA, HIV, (super-infections), and other human pathogens like k. pneumonia. It bolsters the natural immune response and promotes bacterial clearance. So it would make sense that in areas of ‘old injury’, niacin could cause the skin to pattern where old sunburns occurred by signaling the natural immune system response. Any kind of burn is an injury to the layers of the skin, including sunburns. Even though new skin forms over the burned area, the lower layers will retain the sun damage which presents itself later in life by discoloration of the skin, loss of pigmentation, age spots, skin cancer, etc. I would not go as far as saying that this is evidence of stored radiation being emitted from the body, whole track radiation or whatever. I think it’s much simpler than that.
What I described above applies to super infections or superbugs, which can be untreatable with antibiotics, or requires an extremely strong antibiotic regimen. This is not to be confused with using high doses of Niacin for simpler, easy to treat infections.
BTW, I am not a scientist but have studied life sciences and medicine. So it’s only my opinion and what I believe to be the case.
Hey Pepper, it makes sense to me. I use niacin when I feel sick from: too many chemicals, arc exposure, maybe chemtrails as well.I have a friend who is in denial and he cant tell the difference between contrails and chemtrails even when they are being produced right before his very eyes. I back my statements with some facts: Commercial air liners are powered with bypass fan jets that hardly ever leave contrails.But all this can be referenced on the net.I was a jet mech in the Navy and installed electronics, spray equipment and atmospheric sampling devices in civilian life.
“No idea about the sunburn, though my thought is it has to do with blood/white platelets going to the source of an injury or infection to heal/protect. Sunburn, like any other burn is going to result in the body doing what it can to heal the damage (burn). I don’t know if there is some sort of stimulation of those cells by niacin and they are tricked into thinking burning is happening again? I commented about this earlier, but nobody seems to have the answer or wanted to respond.”
TC : Thanks for the hypothesis, Mike ; seems plausible.
“As for the manifestations of “radiation sickness” I don’t think there are any manifestations that were not known side effects of niacin from back in the early 50’s. Nobody knows what doses were given and to how many people in his 1950 “test” and how those numbers (if there were indeed any numbers at all) line up with the 1956 “testing.” That he didn’t see nausea etc in 1950 could be for numerous reasons and there will never be any way of knowing as there are no records and not even any details given at all about what was done.”
TC : Yeah, I see your point ; w/out any records nothing can be ascertained. And those reactions can also be explained as side effects, as you pointed out. I am going to take a very detailed look into that report you quoted to fully understand the chemistry of it all, and pull some strings. Then I’ll get back to you on that. I’ll pull out all researches that I can find on niacin as well, and study those in detail.
“And yet there are statements of scientific certainty that are based on those nebulous tests. It’s really hard to know anything for certain other than one fact. There is no scientific certainty that can be assumed from any of these “tests” or “results.”
TC : I can’t honestly disagree with any of that , as sad as this may sound to my Scientologist friends. Sorry dear folks, but I have to do what I have to do. My loyalty is to truth and to nothing more.
I’ll study all reports that I can find in detail including the one you quoted, and see what I come up with. Thanks for the comm and suggestions.
Best regard,
Peter
Very good. Thanks for your well mannered and well spoken response.
This was a very heated topic, but in my view a lot of good has shaken out from it and generally things have settled back to normal again.
You are most welcome, dear Mike.
” This was a very heated topic, but in my view a lot of good has shaken out from it and generally things have settled back to normal again.”
Yes indeed ; a very heated topic. I mean , it has already reached almost 600 replies !!! I had not seen this pattern in years! And it did finally settled out.
I think we showed the CofS what REAL fredom of speech and having a free mind can really accomplish. This post resembles life a lot. Life, real life, is frequently random, unpredictable, full of volatile emotions, with pain and hapiness living together, with fixed ideas and new realizations, with confusions and prevented purposes , with disagreements that sometimes gets handled and sometimes don’t.
Upon instrospecting about what the hell what happening at this blog, I realized something VERY interesting ; I was dealing with life itself ; with people who were very much alive. I had gotten so used to “order” , “agreement” (actually forced agreement) , “being nice” , “properly behaving” , “not being too loud” , “avoiding entheta” , and all those indoctrinations from having been exposed to Scn for so many years (in my case, life-times) ; that one easily forgets what real life is like.
This blog is the microcosmos of life representing the bigger picture. Hey, even KSW supporters came into the discussions, got a little smashed all right, but kept on posting their views. Foolproof and TruthTeller persisted in spite of being smashed left and right, but at the end, they adapted quite well and did a decent job at defending their views.
I think that Scientologists have already started to relax a little about criticism to Scn and LRH, and are beginning to learn to debate about their views instead of being the effect of it all, and I take a good win on that.
I think that DM is listening carefully and scratching his head is confusion. He might even decide to post here under another name, who knows? Anything is possible. All I know is that the circle is getting smaller each day, and that day finally will come when freedom, real freedom be the winner , and differences won’t matter any longer. And then we will all celebrate together.
Good night folks, I am already too mentally exhausted. Sorry if I leave anyone w/out being properly acked today.
Best regards,
Peter
“Radiation is apparently enormously water-soluble as well as water removable. According to
researchers, one merely has to take a hose to a building surface or a road to wash the radiation
off of it. This factor is well known to defense trained personnel.””
No. What is being washed away is SOLID particulate matter that has become radioactive. If one had uranium dust it could be washed off of a surface. If the surface material was itself radioactive, washing with water does nothing. The radiation itself is not “soluble” in water.
You are right about that, John. Water can also be used for shielding, specially Alpha and beta particles. An Alpha particle can be stopped after going through .008 of an inch of water, and a Beta particle can be stopped after going through less than 2 inches of water.
But a radiation being “water soluble” is just nonsense.
I am curious as to what is your hypothesis for the bath-suit patterns seen on the program. I already read Mike’s, which I am answering shortly, what is yours ? And about the apparent radiaton symptoms during the program.
Best regards,
Peter
I have no hypothesis as I really don’t think it matters one wit.
Fair enough , John ; thanks.
TC
I live in Sweden and i can’t stop reading and listen about scientology. The reality almost beats the fiction..
I havent been reading much on the blog and neither did i read whole the post, just wanted to say that it would be very intresting if you could talk about the asbestosinfested ship (freewind) asbestos can be scary stuff when realased and scientology went totally crazy with it on the freewind. There is a good documentary on youtube with the architecht Lawrence Woodcraft, in which he is speaking out about the renovation.
I don’t want to scare anyone but the amounts of airborne asbestos on that ship when the renovated it….
Scientology + asbestos, cant get any better.
Hi Fredrik, It is very good to meet you in your lovely country of Sweden. I am in Baton Rouge,Louisiana which has no great mountains but old growth cypress swamps not that far away.I am interested that you brought up The Freewinds and blue dust as I call it.I was never on that ship,but I was in The Sea Organization as part of Asho Fdn,the team that ran Asho in LA, California at night.Long ago now 74-78 I was on one of the Sea Org ships The Excalibur and scrubbed blue dust there for almost a month and also off basement pipes at another very large castle like building in Hollywood that the Sea Org operated.Years later I am now 64 I have two cancers with no family history at all that very well turned on partially because of that stuff.So I agree that this is another area where this cult does not present all that it knows when ships or now buildings are renovated by the members of Scientology.I am glad this got your interest,the more people including who never were in Sci to begin with that read and post here the better! Thank you so much and take care,Ann.
It’s sad and very cruel to put so many people at risk as scientology did. Blue asbestos (Crocidolite) is one of the more dangerous one.
I wouldn’t panic however, the more you get exposed the higher the risk of you getting sick from it.
The amount of asbestos on freewind had to be enourmous when the renovated it.
As long as i know does it only increase the risk of lungdiseases and stomachcancer.
No reason to panic but scientology should make up for it.
Here’s a gem from the Ol’ man, that seems to adequately explain much of how we end up frustratingly ‘perplexed’ by another’s refusal, or ‘inability’ to actually get THE point, of what we’re saying: (And I’m NOT, referring here, to the UN-willingness to duplicate, 🙂 though that DEFINITELY becomes a factor!!! 🙂 )
Remember that trusty old ‘STABLE DATUM’, applied to a confusion? — Which, when adopted/selected, permits the orderly resolution of confusion? (See ‘The Problems Of Work’ — LRH) The most interesting point, to me, is that he made it quite clear, that “THE STABLE DATUM DOES NOT HAVE TO BE TRUE” for it to be effective!! It is merely selected as a ‘stable -izing’ tool of convenience Ie “BOXES”, — Sort out clutter, by separating and placing similar objects into a specific box, and one soon has ‘order’.
We use that ‘stable datum’ tool, almost unconsciously, throughout our daily lives
Another example “labels” — Tony DePhillips once pointed out, on Marty’s blog, that he saw nothing wrong with using /giving a label to someone. And I agree with his reason:
“it’s just a tool of convenience” — Yes it is Tony! But it also happens to be a “stable datum” which effectively prevents doubts, uncertainties, and CONFUSION, from clouding our interaction with any given item, person, or information presented to us.
yup, dat little ol’ ‘stable datum’ — such a useful ‘tool’ when used SANELY!! And as you can plainly see — devastatingly destructive, when it’s NOT!! 🙂
The corollary, btw, to using this tool S/D (Stable Data), is that is is ONLY effective, while it is permitted, or held, to be ‘stable’ (:”TRUE” ).
Hence, vested interests might resort to collapsing any erstwhile ‘stable datum’ held by supporters of a cause/enterprise, merely by using smear tactics, vicious innuendo, blackmail, or other forms of intimidation.. –( Your OSA tools of choice!)
Thus we see the frantic desperation of the CO$, as it’s operational ‘stable data’ have not only become UN-stable, but being exposed as being patently FALSE!!!
Never one to be caught napping, COB (of course) flaps around like a gurgling, headless chicken, scratching and clawing at ANYTHING, impinging on HIS beloved S/Data.
Using HIS erstwhile S/D of ‘choice’ “Power, in my estimation is when people will listen to you” — He still forcibly clings to that today, as fewer and fewer actually WILL listen to him!!.
Just an innocuous little tool, “S/D” but with the inherent power to build or obliterate almost anything. Indeed, apparently, our universe/s could not run without the blueprint of “S/D!” 🙂
I’ll give you that if you grant beingness to my stable datum: L. Ron Hubbard was a homophobe who desired the deaths of all LGBTs (Science of Survival), a person who faked status as a nuclear physicist (All About Radiation), a person who committed Stolen Valor by stating he won 27 WWII medals when his service record states four (his self-promoted biography), and a person whose beliefs cause people to violently oppose anyone who might benefit from psychoactive medication (Psychiatry: An Industry Of Death museum). That’s my S/D.
Now maybe you can figure out why this gay veteran with a degree in physics and a medicine cabinet with psych drugs gets frustratingly perplexed by another’s refusal or inability to get the point of what I’m saying. Right, Calvin?
No argument from me there, Esp. Perhaps just one little point to draw your attention to, though, Amigo:
Hubbard is actually dead and has been for 29 years. Most of us here, get that. Why not find another S/D that permits you to ACTUALLY let his apparent ‘grip’ on you, relax? You know? -“disconnect”(sever,etc.etc)
Though today, we are in a better position to decide for ourselves (exes, recovering K/Aiders, never in’s, etc) as to whether ‘his’ legacy, be adjudged harmful (per the voluminous ad-homs aimed at proving just that) or beneficial (via useful tools for handling self, another, life) or a more discerning adjudication of both, perhaps.
Only you would know best here, but just mebbe, the self benefiting act of ‘forgiveness’, along with your psychoactive medication, may serve as a MORE beneficial S/D, for you, personally?
-Purely in the interests of attaining better overall health, my friend 🙂
— racing.
Calvin, I acknowledge and accept your viewpoint, and also acknowledge that you believe it might be beneficial, except that you forgot one other thing about me: I’m an Anon. You do know our credo, right? “We do not forgive. We do not forget. Expect us.”
As long as Hubbard is being promoted as someone more infallible than the Pope and is quoted continuously to the exclusion of all other beings, I shall be there on the other side of the barricades throwing Molotovs.
(By the way, my recent hospital stay for septic pneumonia was not caused by me reading confidential materials, nor was it because I have missed withholds for not forgiving Hubbard. It was because I let it go for too long because of situations at work. Simple, really.)
Ahhhh…. Espianado, amigo. the air seems to be clearing. All well ‘n good, in my book. Some real honest to goodness openness comin’ through 🙂
Seems we both get, that straight talking, can deliver the goods!
Well, thanks for the offering of another heaping of minced, flattened, poisoned, ‘micro-waved’, sewerage treatment certified, ‘Hubbard’ offerings, but I’ll just give ’em a miss!
As for the Anon credo, apart from the solid work you’ve done in dismantling the Co$, (which I’ve only read about on the blogs), I admit to being completely ignorant.
The entire ensemble, characterized by your last paragraph, hardly featured during my tenure in the movement.( ’70 -’78.)
At THAT point, being heavily regged, intimidated, threatened, etc. etc, wasn’t a feature. The focus then, was on training and MAKING auditors, and actually delivering great processing at an affordable rate. My stint included financing my wife Dorothy, in her Auditor training package. Topping off with being the very first NED Class V Auditor and C/S in Durban, immediately following the tour of David Mayo to our Org to lecture and kick-start the level here.
I’m truly sorry, that you didn’t get to experience any of that, ’cause then, it was genuinely meaningful AND fun.
Shitstorm ever since. Can you accept that heartfelt, sincere perspective too?
Btw, compadre, ‘Mind -Control’ does come in many guises. — Just hope you’re aware of that!! But the simple act of ‘forgiveness’ transcends all that kind of ‘baggage’, freeing your attention for more ‘satisfying’ pursuits.
You know … As in .. WTF..was I taking all that shit sooooooooooooo… SERIOUSLY for??? LOL!
Possibly you may just get to experience that too, someday 😉
I take niacin ( 300 to 500 M) when I’m getting sick and after the chills,flush and shakes I feel better. During the PRI ended up taking at least 3000 M of powdered Niacin with no negative side effects. I hads been severily sunburned when 2.5 Y old leaving white stripes where the straps were on my lil sunsuit. I find the internal effects during the burnout to be really interesting as well. Sorry but the tech saved my life, The COS and DM is another matter however. I would not go back in either.
Yeah, just an afterthought, Espee.
– “Forgive them, my Lord, for they knoweth not, what they do.”
🙂
Hi racingintheblood39, It is morning here and still really hot in Baton Rouge.We do not “cool” down till mid Oct.I liked your post on the trusty old Stable Datum.I have had it used both ways on me and the destructive use is horrible.However to be totally honest that is one bit of Ron’s World I do use when it is used positively.Love to you both Always, Ann.
Thanks, Ann. You see the value therein. And that’s all that matters. 🙂
Love to you, too!
—r-r-r-r-rrrracing!!!!! LOL 🙂 🙂 🙂
correction: “two more of MY choice, to start the show, and…”
Mike,
I agree with you that Hubbard didn’t exactly do a “Clinical Trial” degree-of-research on most things, but he was usually right and in my opinion most of his conclusions were well ahead of their time. You’re right that the Piltdown man was a major miss and basically Ron talking out of his ass.
The one point you seem to try to be discrediting is where Hubbard said Niacin isn’t causing the flush but rather its interaction with stored radiation in the body is what’s causing it. From my Purif I can help shed some light on this claim. Years before I did my Purif, I had gotten laser hair removal on my back several times. Interestingly, the red flushes on my back were in the same formation/looked virtually the same as the redness on my back immediately after I got the laser hair removal. This experience causes me to believe that there is some degree of truth in Hubbard’s words on this point.
THanks. I was neither trying to credit nor discredit it other than to note the total lack of specifics and the “seems to” becoming “fact” by the next sentence. I don’t know if the action of the blood is to tend to flow to areas that have been previously injured (burned) when artificially stimulated subsequently by the action of the niacin. But it doesn’t matter.
My point was simply stated in the original posting. New information ow exists that niacin may be harmful. I could simply have posted the study but my fear was that anyone who WAS using it would simply reject the notion as being “anti-scientology” and that I (and the study) obviously didnt know what I was talking about “because LRH said blah blah” which is why I went to the trouble of explaining all I did in preamble.
But of course, that didnt matter to those who are more interested in “defending the Purif” than noting there might be something to be concerned about.
Oh well. I should learn my lesson. But I keep trying anyway.
Yes you do, Mike (hopefully it eventually sinks in! 🙂 )
(But, for an umpteenth time, please at least R.S.V.P — SOMETHING I’ve sent to you??? including E/M replies, etc — Jimminy Crickets!…crickets..crickets?? huh?) Okay– I KNOW it’s a tall order! 🙂
Anyway, the point/s you have been hammering away at (with much exasperation!!) actually do get through, here and there, –with a few actually tuned in!! ( just to acknowledge you on that! 🙂 )
Returning to the “Stable Datum//Data” references, I made above, how do you see the notion that one is actually perceived as “threatening”, another’s ‘stable datum’, when incontrovertible evidence is presented, which does just that? — Thus commencing much of the whole shooting match of HE&R that we see here.
What I’m trying (again) to highlight here, is that unless we take on board, that we are in fact, just ‘ripping away the shield (S/D),( some deem so ‘necessary’ which permits them to feel ‘safe’, and thus able to have a peek beyond, to (hopefully) see what’s actually going “on”, over here, there, wherever), then that gradient scale of ‘delivery’, is still a bit too steep. Especially when it involves being, or even worse, actually PROVEN wrong!
Hoping you get, and do respond to this comm (even if briefly) 🙂 … Mike?
Mike?? Why you’se bin stil sul-king at me Michael? Awww-w-w-w?? 🙂
TreasonousF***
1) The radiation Hubbard spoke of was ionizing radiation. That is very high energy. A human body CANNOT store that. It is impossible. No matter what L. Ron said. If it did somehow remain in your body, you’d be dead by cancer very shortly.
2) the laser procedure you underwent imparted IR (heat) energy to kill hair follicles. Your body did NOT store that excess heat energy to be released later by the “purif”. Again, impossible.
One does not need a degree in physics to know this. One ONLY needs to know what is taught in a competent Jr. High school physical sciences class.
“1) The radiation Hubbard spoke of was ionizing radiation. That is very high energy. A human body CANNOT store that. It is impossible. No matter what L. Ron said. If it did somehow remain in your body, you’d be dead by cancer very shortly.”
Only if it is high frequency radiation , John , otherwise the radiation can not cause ionization. Low ultraviolet radiation (from the sun) , microwaves , infrared , radio waves , visible light (as most laser lights) , are all non-ionizing radiation. LRH was not necessarily talking about ionizing radiation , besides his mention of X-rays that even though being an ionizing energy , can be stored in the body , and if not enough exposure to it , then the probabilities of cancer are slim. Get your facts straight , or at least do not generalize. If the frequency isn’t high enough , then the radiation can not cause ionization no matter how much radiation.
In order to damage the DNA , high energy photons need to knock electrons out of their orbits, or interact with the nucleus of an atom. To do this, the frequency of the radiation has to be high enough. It can then damage the DNA. Otherwise it doesn’t , and no cancer at all. Please , present studies to prove otherwise with the exact scientific articles.
TC
Hi Theta Clear, I prefer not to dwell on my month of 5 day a week radiation fun for breast cancer,but the choice was that or going from stage0 to end-stage4 very fast.Here in Baton Rouge an oil and gas family donated two 3 and a half million dollar targeted laser radiation machines.They are called Artiste! and Encore! and the entire US has about six of this type all told.They are exceedingly fast and very precise.Five minutes tops for two zaps.However the cancer cells any that remained after surgery theirDNA was killed but a year later I learned that the healthy cells around the cancer move very quickly away from the radiation too as they may sense they are about to get it.So the mammograms that I have to do every six months for quite some years saw this movement and interpreted it as a red flag.Because of my history my breast surgeon went back in in May 15 and that was when those long three days waiting for pathology the hardest wait one can do,transpired.Thankfully beneign 100% this time around.I am sure I glow in the dark! Anyway your post about radiation was very interesting to me,thank you.I still do not agree with Ron’s take on it.( radiation) but I am glad to still be here and even better posting you.Love Always Peter,Ann.
Thanks for the comm, dear Ann.
I am glad that you are doing better, dear. I know that you probably didn’t mean that, but I wasn’t making a case against ionizing radiation, just clarifying for others the scientific fact that ionizing radiation can be accumulated in the body w/out necessarily developing into cancer depending on the exposure. As almost anything in life, radiation can be good or bad depending on how it it used.
In the case of cancer treatment, ionizing radiation is specifically directed towards the carcinogenic cells in order to damage their genes (in the DNA), and thus preventing them from dividing and spreading. Some people react positively to such radiation and others don’t. I am not against of what works in any field. Radiation has indeed saved many lives.
My point was only about the fallacy expressed by dear John. In his desire to assign ANYTHING from LRH as either something false or utterly bad, he forgets that some people here actually have scientific backgrounds. You know me, dear Ann ; I try to be as fair and as balanced as I can with anything and with anybody. Don’t always succeed, but god knows that I really try.
With love always,
Peter
Hi Theta Clear, Thank you Peter.Honestly I do not have a good understanding about what ionizing radiation is,so,I have to do some homework on that.I am not sure which radiation does what and how the whole science of it works.But I had the urge to simply post you what happened to me with my first and hopefully only contact with it as regards cancer.You do me a privilege of posting back and you know how much I appreciate it.I will never know 100 % if my time in The Sea Org and the stress of that last year and one half caused these cancers totally,but some of my brilliant Drs in this field have told me yes it very well could have.So another reason I want this cult dragged to the carpet.Light and love it most certainly is not.You know I always look for your posts on whatever subject and support the work you are doing so strongly.Always forever love to you and yours,Ann.
Thanks sweetie, I understand. And thanks for the support, I really appreciate it.
Careful with trying to think of reasons why of the cancer ; I do not want you with an out-list, meaning listing items and deciding which is which not in a formal session. A wrong item picked up can only worsen a situation.
Just relax, let the doctors do their thing and enjoy your life with your hubby as much as you can. Not attempting to lecturing you or anything dear (Gee, look how I myself reacted so hostile towards John) , but after having recognized and handled the Sources of antagonism in our live (in your case by changing from environment) , the best tool that I have found so far that has incredible healing powers, is FORGIVENESS.
Of all great sensations that I have experienced in my life, nothing compares with the enormous relief that I have gained through that so much needed human virtue. Forgiveness is the best balm for the soul. It really frees us.It cuts the chains that binds us to terminals and situations. It makes the day brighter and life more enjoyable.
These people from Scn, those misguided “leaders” , those misguided kool-aid drinkers, are but people trapped below the insidious power of the cult(ish) approach to knowledge that we humans have. Some.of us were strong enough to break free ; some of us had enough free will left to make a final attempt to free our minds, to leave. Others not so strong as we were, are not so lucky because their lack of enough self-respect and self-esteem blind them utterly. Some become even “evil” and totally lose themselves.
I know how exactly feel to lose oneself and abandon our honor to give in to the wish to revenge, to punish. Gee, I even wanted to do it with John, just a while ago and actually did it were it not for Mike.
To love our fellow beings just as they are, with their virtues and defects as well, is no necessarily an easy task, and to forgive those that have harmed us so much, is even harder to do. But there are many incredible awards , many benefits to be had from finally being able to do so , the most important of them being : PEACE, spiritual peace and serenity of the mind. For those that can make it, there is abundant hope.
Sorry about the lecture ; I just felt that I had to let you know my views on that.
Take care dear.
With love always,
Peter
“besides his mention of X-rays that even though being an ionizing energy , can be stored in the body ”
LMAO! It is sad and hilarious at the same time to read this stuff from people who lack an 3rd graders understanding of physics. Both Ron and his hypnotized posters here.
[Edited to remove ad hominem]
Instead of correctly presenting valid arguments to counteract mine as any REAL scientist would do, you only resort to pitiful and pathetic personal attacks. You want to know why ? Because real science people like me show to others your falsities and absurb ideas dressed up a “facts”.
https://rpop.iaea.org/RPOP/RPoP/Content/InformationFor/Patients/patient-information-x-rays/
Here, dear posters, see the data by yourselves.
[Edited to remove ad hominem]
TC
[There may be important, relevant data in your link. I have kept it and deleted your ad hom — surrounded by complaints about “personal attacks”… slow down, take a breath….]
And here is another :
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Safety-and-Security/Radiation-and-Health/Radiation-and-Life/
Don’t let this quack to confuse any of you. He and dear “Espiando” only come here to insult others that doesn’t agree with them. They do it every time and Mike does ABOSOLUTELY NOTHING about it. This misguided “freedom of speech” is hilarious.
TC
Hey there — I represent that remark. You have absolutely no idea how many comments I do NOT allow to be posted. There are a lot of people who no doubt have a beef about me NOT approving their comments. Probably John Locke and Espiando included in that list. One thing I will say in their favor, they have never complained that I should censor anyone else’s comments. They have never criticized me for “allowing commenter X to spread their lies”… I don’t agree with all they say and don’t agree with their tone in many cases. If you think “freedom of speech” is misguided and a hilarious concept, then I feel bad for you. And recommend you not read or comment here. There are other places where people can do that and enjoy it — on both sides. Completely anti, where everyone agrees all in scientology is evil and bad and the completely pro, where every word of L. Ron Hubbard is taken as literal gospel truth and no criticism of it is tolerated.
I think it is healthy for everyone to be open to all sorts of views and ideas and expressions and to make up their own mind. Don’t feel threatened by other ideas or people who disagree with you. You might learn something from them. Or learn something about yourself.
End of sermon.
Thanks for this, Mike.
In the past, the ‘I believe in free speech, but there should be limits (especially concerning LRH)’ was what kept me away from/criticizing this blog…
Just to make a clarification here, I wasn’t complaining about any criticism towards Scn , LRH or anything else but ONLY about personal attacks towards posters that disagree on something . I really don’t give a rat’s ass about any criticism about LRH, Scn or any other damn thing as long as correct manners are used to present our case. That’s only what this was about. It wasn’t about anything else.
Best regards,
Peter
Fair enough, Mike ; I guess that you are righ , thanks. And thanks for deleting those comments, I felt bad about them afterwards ; not really my style. Sorry for the misjudging part , totally out of line.
Best regards,
Peter
I have kept track for about the past year as an experiment, and almost all, if not all, (visible) pleas to Mike (or rants to the board) to censor or curtail Freedom of Speech of other posters have come from followers of Hubbard.
This is NOT a coincidence. Hubbard had a history and policy of trying to silence critics of himself and scientology that was SO bad he ordered the commissions of felonies to carry it out.
This is an action carried out by all sociopathic dictators (also cult leaders) and their like minded adherents.
John Locke: “I have kept track for about the past year as an experiment, and almost all, if not all, (visible) pleas to Mike (or rants to the board) to censor or curtail Freedom of Speech of other posters have come from followers of Hubbard.”
And “almost all, if not all” of the vitriolic posts have come from the harsh critics of Hubbard. I’m glad I am not one of them because – if for no other reason – I would not want to be associated with a group where such a large percentage of them are just plain nasty, along with being pretty juvenile: “El Fraud,” “Fatso,” etc. Like a bunch of little schoolboy bullies, patting each other on the back for their viciousness.
You also wrote: “This is NOT a coincidence. Hubbard had a history and policy of trying to silence critics of himself and scientology that was SO bad he ordered the commissions of felonies to carry it out.”
You apparently haven’t read Marty Rathbun’s last book. He (like Mike) was there in the midst of it all and came way with a much broader viewpoint than your small-minded think. He saw Hubbard’s flaws as well as the surrounding circumstances for his downward spiral.
Now, don’t try to jump in Mike’s wagon now and present yourself as the great “frredom of speech” protector; you clearly are not , John. You guys forget than in order for a right to exist, its dichotomy, “Our duty to” , must exis as well, otherwise it all degenerates into using your alleged rights to suppress that of the others , like the “freedom of religion” right.
Attacking others so furiously as you usually do here is more than “freedom” of speech ; is the suppression of their rights to believe in whatever the hell the want to believe in as long as they respect tje rights of others, causing no harm to others.
Instead of friendly debating a subject and presenting and explaining your arguments, you resort to personal attacks, insults, invalidations and evaluations of others that doesn’t share your same views. I have also conducted an “experiment” about who is who here, and only you and usually Espiando, are the ones who usually express your “freedom” of speech as a tool of ad-hominen attacks to others here.
I deeply regret that I fell myself into your sordid game, and attempted to do the same to you ; not really my style. I prefer your hostility a thousand times than being incline towards censoring your posts and erring in the direction of messing with your freedom of speech right.
I only wish that you could lighten up in the way you “debate” things, and try, at least try, to grant more beingness to others. I grant that you are an intelligent individual, but many here are as well. And even if they are misguided at some specific points, getting them to recognize it is never going to happen if you just smash them at the first opportunity you have.
Many Still-ins come here looking for answers, for other angles to evaluate Scn and LRH. But they need time, patience, and understanding to digest and assimilate all the lies and harmfulness that Scn also possesses. If not you just validate the Church’s allegations, that we just are a bunch of crazy bitterly hurt apostates.
So please lighten up a little w/out losing the essence of who you are neither. I think that many here would really appreciate that. Anyway, I was misguided in attempting any censoring of you.
Best regards,
Peter
This is an intelligent and helpful comment. Thank you.
I particularly agree with this sentiment:
Many Still-ins come here looking for answers, for other angles to evaluate Scn and LRH. But they need time, patience, and understanding to digest and assimilate all the lies and harmfulness that Scn also possesses. If not you just validate the Church’s allegations, that we just are a bunch of crazy bitterly hurt apostates.
So please lighten up a little w/out losing the essence of who you are neither. I think that many here would really appreciate that. Anyway, I was misguided in attempting any censoring of you.
You are most welcome , dear Mike ; and thanks for the validation.
Best Regards ,
Peter
miraldi wrote, You also wrote: “This is NOT a coincidence. Hubbard had a history and policy of trying to silence critics of himself and scientology that was SO bad he ordered the commissions of felonies to carry it out.”
Yes, I wrote the truth. As noted in your reply you could NOT refute what I stated there because it is true. Just as you could not refute the obsewrvation regarding it being Hubbard’s followers on this blog that have railed against Freedom of Speech, in the main.
I do see much gnashing of teeth over those two truths I just posted but no refutation as it is irrefutable.
I’m being perfectly straight here with no “meanness”. I will endeavorer to post only truth. Those that get upset about that are free to counter with truth or with material that tries to obfuscate.
Educated readers that come behind will readily see that effort. Vain as it is.
You see ? This is what I meant ; you are , with your unique style (which I can’t deny-leaving the insults out- that I can of like it) , presenting your arguments. I see no personal attacks here from you in this particular post , and your essence is intact. There is no “El con(s)” , “El criminal Hubbard(s)” , “You 3rd grader(s)” , “Hypnotized robots” , etc , etc , in this post of yours. Now replicate that as much as you can , would you ? Thanks in advance.
And by the way , I DO agree with you on LRH’s quite known efforts to silence critics , and about KSW supporters own efforts to do the same , violating the freedom of speech right. But we can teach them to do better by being interested enough in their well being. My viewpoint on this , anyway.
Best regards ,
Peter
In Marty’s book *Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior, he wrote about a “Special Project” he had been put on in the late ’70s, where for six months he studied “government and private agency/association documents obtained by means other than the FOIA [Freedom of Information Act].” He said there were “tens of thousands of pages,” and he then wrote about what he discovered – based on those official documents, and he named names. Here are just a few excerpted paragraphs from the book.
“For the next 20 years [since 1950, when the best-selling book Dianetics, the Modern Science of Health, was published and achieved unprecedented popularity and the efforts to destroy Scientology began], the AMA’s then-mighty Department of Investigation would take clandestine action against Hubbard and his organizations. Two successive heads of investigation for the AMA, Oliver Field (1950s) and Thomas Spinelli (1960s and 1970s) would work hand-in-glove with several governmental agencies to infiltrate Hubbard’s lectures and organizations
[…]
“…Hubbard had hit so close to the quick with his disclosures of what Dianetics and Scientology process had uncovered about the dirty work of the CIA and the very best psychiatrists, it is a wonder he was not physically assassinated.
“Perhaps because of his high profile, and the growing ranks of dedicated religionists surrounding him, the APA, AMA, CIA, FBI and FDA and friendly media alliances would have to settle for old-fashioned (albeit of unprecedented intensity) character assassination. The documents demonstrated that the ranks of the massive government and private agencies arrayed against Hubbard and Scientology were swelled by other military and intelligence groups also involved in mind control experiments, including Naval Intelligence, Air Force Intelligence and Army Intelligence.
“The truth of Hubbard’s 1951 pronouncements [in Science of Survival re PDH] about our government’s dirty activities would not be corroborated publicly until the mid to late seventies, with the advent of the Freedom of Information Act and the U.S. Congress Church Committee Hearings into unlawful CIA domestic intelligence operations. That Ron was twenty years ahead of his time in recognizing what the CIA and psychiatrists were up to was acknowledged by author Walter Bowart in one of the first popular exposures of that activity, Operation Mind Control (Dell, 1978). By then, Hubbard had been so discredited by establishment campaigns, and his church subjected to such intense fire for scandals of its [establishment’s] own manufacture, that nary a person would listen to the longer history, the bigger picture.
[…]
“Now Hubbard’s writings took on a markedly different tone than most of what he had written before. Rather than speak of turning the other cheek and dealing with establishment attacks with a healthy insouciance, Hubbard prepared the GO to do what the enemy was doing, but to do it better.”
Theta Clear wrote:
Many Still-ins come here looking for answers, for other angles to evaluate Scn and LRH. But they need time, patience, and understanding to digest and assimilate all the lies and harmfulness that Scn also possesses. If not you just validate the Church’s allegations, that we just are a bunch of crazy bitterly hurt apostates.
Agreed. I have been very critical towards other people on this blog and Tony O’s and have had to check myself. From time to time, I see myself becoming a person that I do not want to be. I am only speaking for myself and no one else here. I think people should have the right to express their thoughts pro or con, and if anyone doesn’t like it, then skip over that person’s comments. It’s like changing the TV channel or lowering the radio dial. It’s up to you what you want to read or not read, communicate to or not.
Overall, I really don’t want to see this blog become completely polarized into people hating on each other. It would only serve to make the church right and give the CoS a win. I don’t like speaking in the Scientology language anymore and try not to, but had to put it that way.
Thank you Theta Clear 🙂
Hi Pepper, A most beautiful post.You echoed my thoughts too.Thank you.Love,Ann.
You are most welcome, dear Pepper ; And those were very valuable and wise comments , thanks.
Best regards
TC
Love you too Ann. Thanks.
Got it , Mike ; agreed, thanks.
Peter
Excellent post, Theta Clear. Your points are very valid.
Thanks, Cindy ; most kind.
Peter
Hi John Locke, I have to make this comment.Having cancers does not make me a hypnotized poster.Ron did very well with me as regards that.I know you will hold to your viewpoint and that is your right,but until you have gone through weeks of radiation, you do not truly know how happy I feel just to be able to,post here.You do not have to agree with me at all,but getting angry with me because I do not understand basic physics is pointless.I flunked math in first grade and every year after my school and college time,so I guess you can call me stupid at least.However I did damn well in writing and all aspects of English lit and critical thinking believe it or not.Ann.
Ann, I never said having cancer made one hypnotized. Not sure what you are talking about here.
Hi John Locke,OK you certainly do not have to read my post again.I am talking about the fact where you posted, concerning hypnotized posters on this blog and their understanding of radiation.Or did I get that wrong too? If so I stand corrected, otherwise if you really do not understand what I am talking about,there is no need to chat about the subject further.Please have a good evening.Ann.
Ann B. I was referring to those who believe Hubbard regarding the purif releasing “stored EM or high energy particle radiation” in the body.
As THAT is is impossible, I referred to them be “hypnotized” [by Ron].
Hi John Locke,I do thank you for explaining your position to me I understand.You can see as a super sensitive things may affect me strongly when the other person posting obviously may not get why my emotion is that way.I do apologize to you.,Always, Ann.
Oh , and I forgot to include that ONLY in the right amounts , does ionizing radiation can cause real harm to the body. To estimate real biological effects , we must know first how much energy is being deposited per unit of the mass of the body it can potentially affect.
The standard unit to measure absorbed dosages is the “Grey” which is on joule of energy deposited in one kilogram of mass. Raising an apple 3 feet above the ground is aprox. one joule of energy.
To have any biological effect , not only the absorbed dosage is considered , but also the intensity of the ionizing in the cells.Equal exposure to different types of radiation expressed as gray , do not necessarily produce equal effects of the cells. One Gray of one specific ionizing radiation can be more harmful than one Gray of another. In order to talk about the actual harmfulness of the radiation exposure , we need to introduce the “sievert” (Sv) . One sievert of radiation represent the same effect in the body. The most used unit is the millisievert , 1/1,000 of a sievert. Below 50 mSv there is no real risk. We are exposed daily to what is called background radiation which contain many ionizing type of radiations ,and we have evolved just fine with our carbon based bodies.
So my point , dear John , is that ionizing radiation CAN , CAN be absorbed by the body and stay there for YEARS w/out necessarily developing any cancer. And THAT is correct science.
My 2 cents.
Peter
I meant by the above “below 50 mSv of exposure in a year”.
TC
But the ionizing radiation does not “stay” in the body – it is absorbed, which in this context means it is turned into other forms of energy such as chemical and thermal energy. The conversion to chemical energy – by rearranging molecular bonds in a semi-random fashion – is the main reason ionizing radiation is harmful.
But these deranged molecules are not ionizing radiation, nor are they capable of re-emitting the ionizing radiation which created them.
One might argue that particle radiations can leave particles in the body, however the key element that makes particle radiation ionizing is high kinetic energy – once slowed down to thermal energy the particles cannot ionize, nor can they be returned to ionizing speeds by chemical reactions.
For a biological analogy, if I stumble and turn my ankle, I may or may not see lasting effects. If enough mechanical energy is imparted, damage is done, otherwise it is harmless. But whether or not I suffer a sprained ankle, it is nonsense to claim that mechanical energy “stays” in my body.
” But these deranged molecules are not ionizing radiation, nor are they capable of re-emitting the ionizing radiation which created them.
One might argue that particle radiations can leave particles in the body, however the key element that makes particle radiation ionizing is high kinetic energy – once slowed down to thermal energy the particles cannot ionize, nor can they be returned to ionizing speeds by chemical reactions.”
You see ? , this is what I meant by “correctly debating a subject by presenting well-thought arguments instead of personal attacks”.
I am afraid that you are right in all the above, dear Daniel ; the radiation IS absorved, not stored. Once absorbed, it is converted to some form of energy used to form new bonds, break bonds, generally altering the chemistry of the body, specially the DNA. It can’t be converted back to ionizing energy. And as you well put it, even if the ionizing energy is in the form of particles like beta, alfa, etc , once they enter the body (usually through ingesting or inhaling radioactive materials as they don’t have enough energy to enter the body) they give their kinetic energy to the electrons altering the chemistry of the body. And gamma rays, once hit something, it transfer its energy and ceases to exist. They can’t be emitted back.
So I stand corrected ; they are absorbed not stored. Do you have any claim regarding that in relation to Scn and/or LRH ?
So refreshing talking to competent minds ; very refreshing indeed.
Best regards,
Peter
Just one thing for you to think about , dear Daniel, there is no such a thing as “energy conversions” , or “transformation of energy” as we were thought at our physics courses; there is only TRANSFERS of energy, it is transfered from one location to another , from one particle to another. This transference is interpreted as “Work”. Heat is the residual energy not used to perform the work so that the system is balanced ; the first law of thermo.
Best regards,
Peter
The claims I make regarding LRH / Scientology are:
1. LRH wrote that radiation is stored in the body.
2. Radiation is not stored in the body.
3. LRH was wrong on this point.
I choose this narrow scope because I believe the necessary facts are well established, I believe I understand those facts, and I believe I can easily cite freely available sources as necessary. (I originally engaged the issue because the error is clear, conspicuous, and irritating.)
I cannot defend the bigger claim that niacin has no benefit in treating radiation injury. I lack relevant expertise and am unable to cite credible sources (on either side).
“I cannot defend the bigger claim that niacin has no benefit in treating radiation injury.”
No need to. In science, the one who makes a claim (in this case) that niacin DOES have a benefit in treating radiation bears 100% of the burden. The one who made the original claim never did the scientific work in order to credibly advance that claim.
Thanks for your answer, Daniel. I understand the point about not having the expertise in the area ; I don’t have it neither. But I really would like to know what theory, educated guess, or even opinion, you have as to how come a bath-suit pattern can show up even years after that sunburn (or “tan”) occurred , and how do you explain the radiation sickness symptoms that have been observed on the program so many times. I am not trying to make a case either in favor or against the program, I only want to gather from other science trained individuals their opinions, guesses, and possible hypothesis about these points.
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to reply.
Best regards,
Peter
According to quantum physics, visible light and everything else on the electromagnetic spectrum is a mere wavefunction until it “collapses” into a particle. Thus, what remains in the body after exposure to radiation would be particles, and according to LRH those particles can be “washed out.” Here are a couple excerpts from *Clear Body, Clear Mind*:
“Radiation is apparently enormously water-soluble as well as water removable. According to researchers, one merely has to take a hose to a building surface or a road to wash the radiation off of it. This factor is well known to defense trained personnel.
“So where one is doing the Purification program, one should be very careful to ensure that actual sweating occurs and in volume. A sufficient intake of water is therefore quite vital when doing the program.”
[…]
“Niacin, then, apparently seems to have a catalytic effect on running out radiation exposure. It seems to give it a kick and run it through.”
marildi, although you didn’t name what sort of radiation you were referring to, you are saying radiation exposure results in the radiation collapsing into particles and those particles are stored in the body. I’ve heard radioactive substances are easy to wash off with water but I have never heard that radiation itself turns into a radioactive substance. I would want to consult my astrologist before signing on to that hypothesis.
“I would want to consult my astrologist before signing on to that hypothesis.”
You should do that, Roger. 😀
Ernst Schroedinger is currently spinning in his grave thanks to marildi. Unfortunately, we won’t know what direction he’s been spinning in until we open his coffin.
The “particle” in question, marildi, is a photon. Photons have no mass and therefore can leave no physical residue, which means your quote from Clear And Present Danger is useless.
Lesson: do not attempt to interpret quantum mechanics in the presence of someone who learned quantum mechanics from a Nobel winner.
Espiando: “Lesson: do not attempt to interpret quantum mechanics in the presence of someone who learned quantum mechanics from a Nobel winner.”
Then you should know that even the Nobel prize winners disagree among themselves. 😉
And the question of whether light has mass apparently depends on your frame of reference:
“Photons are traditionally said to be massless. This is a figure of speech that physicists use to describe something about how a photon’s particle-like properties are described by the language of special relativity… More here: ” http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/ParticleAndNuclear/photon_mass.html
Also, the double-slit experiment tells us that photons collapse to particles when measured. The body can act as a measuring device, or like the screen in the double-slit experiment.
Useful data, Daniel, so thanks for that. However, any room for that other factor, –‘psychosomatic’,– perpetuating a potential, “that mechanical energy “stays” in my body” ??
— racing.
Note: My example is actually wrong, at least partly. My example injury probably causes some permanent deformation of structures without significant change of their chemical bonds. This is storage of mechanical energy!
I think however that my points remain valid: effects are not causes, not even if the effects stop immediately when their causes stop, and some effects can continue even after their causes stop.
I would not consider a psychosomatic effect to be “staying” of a physical cause. Not even if the psychosomatic effect is persistent, physical, and objectively present – I believe that is known to happen although I can’t give an example.
In the end this is a question of definitions: does a physical cause “stay in” a location as long as it has an effect there?
I think most people would prefer that “stay in” have a uniform meaning for all things capable of location, whether causative or not – the meaning of continuing to have the specified location.
Very nicely, and may I say it, “gently” put, Daniel.
If you’ll permit me though, I do happen to view things from a somewhat different angle.
I assume that you still have room for concepts such as intuition, telepathic messaging over great distances, communication between animals and ourselves, recollection of previous life experiences etc.?
In short, “awareness” which simply does not surrender to the scientific ‘proof’ demanded by those whom I consider as merely lacking in broader ‘perception’
As this opening topic concerns the exposure of hype versus ‘proof’, regarding the effects of Niacin, it is therefore hardly surprising to see the volume of responses from a great many viewpoints.
I am neither a scientist, mathematician nor medical practitioner. Yet my profession, Commercial gym owner,(viewable elsewhere on this blog) permitted me to have a lengthy interaction with my clients, on an objective level.
I’m referring to an enormous variety of people with as widely differing attitudes and opinions of their bodies and capabilities.
There being no sauna, at our local org, arrangements were made, for the Org’s purif students, to make use of our saunas. This was done for a set fee for the students. Not having done “the Purif”, personally, (at that point), I nevertheless read up the course and co-operated with the Org’s requirement protocol.
At this point, I wish to remark on how my “awareness”, brought into sharp focus, just how ‘unnaturally’ and almost ‘disconnected’ the Scn purif, students appeared to be, compared to my general clientele, who were noticeably more aware and more in touch and relaxed about their bodies.
I realized then, that the Scn culture, acted to suppress, and discredit ‘the body’ and the active pursuit of physical culture, healthy diet and lifestyle.
This was in sharp conflict to my own personal convictions and studies covering a wide interest in promoting a healthy lifestyle.
The discovery that Ron had totally overlooked the necessity of taking good care of himself physically, was made manifest to me by his own evident lifestyle
— The telltale expanded waistline, out of proportion to his narrow shoulders, and concealed .ectomorphic (thin) frame, and hands. His lack of meaningful exercise, The pack of “kools”, smoked so regularly, typical of the lifestyle when “keeping fit” was regarded as an anomaly.
That he had made so many pronouncements discrediting the body as merely “a machine” that ‘sort of just runs along, without needing undue attention”. set alarm bells ringing, for me. regarding his dismissive stance on the body as a subject “not to be taken seriously!”
In that one regard especially, I had real reservations about just how ‘knowledgeable” we should regard LRH’s pronouncements. Current revelations are turning up more and more, for inspection, for certain.
As far as his work with the mind is concerned, I believe he had made an enormous breakthrough, in providing tools for us to explore our ultimate potential.
At the end of the day, we are just scratching the surface, aren’t we?
“Of all great sensations that I have experienced in my life, nothing compares with the enormous relief that I have gained through that so much needed human virtue. Forgiveness is the best balm for the soul. It really frees us.It cuts the chains that binds us to terminals and situations. It makes the day brighter and life more enjoyable” Peter, I tried to respond to this excerpt from a beautiful post of yours, but could not find any “Reply” button until now. I agree. By holding on to old ARCX’s it really traps a person. By letting go and deciding to grant some beingness and move on with one’s life, it is very therapeutic and freeing. Your post to that effect was a very important lesson you learned which you were hoping to help others along in that direction too. Thank you.
You are most welcome, Cindy ; and thanks for the comm and sharing your wise views.
Best regards,
Peter
Yay Cindy, good post. A little ARC and admiration can heal wounds or is it wounds heels?
Good one, Ron Dolittle!
The “end run” on all of these comments, back and forth, in and out, this and that, is do you, the reader really believe that a healthy fit person who has been or should have been passed medically fit to undertake the Purification Rundown, is going to have any problem at all with taking relatively high dosages of Niacin, on a gradient dosing, and not even up to 5000mg necessarily, in balance with other vitamins and with safeguarding the digestive system with yoghourt etc. – for the trivial amount of time of about 1 week, if that, of the usual 2-3 weeks that it should take to complete the rundown. Is this going to be a problem, generally? I think the answer to that must be and is categorically “no”, unless one has some other bee in one’s bonnet which many commenting on here seem to have.
Usually as I recall in the first week of the Rundown one is taking anywhere up to 1000mg, starting off at 100mg. In the 2nd week you might then be on 2000-3000mg, again all in relative balance to the other vitamins, and minerals as well. Some complete in the 3rd week with not much more than that amount anyway. Most probably complete in the 3rd week going from 4000 to 5000mg and then getting no reaction, and completing. We are talking of a FEW DAYS at high dosages. More contemporary Purif C/Ses might like to correct my “usual” amounts but that is what roughly what I recall from a long time ago now.
The medical safeguards and checks otherwise should be there and applied, of course, to obviate the exceptions.
I think the idea of the story was to examine all the aspects of this and if does stop any excesses or misapplication and provides a warning then all well and good. 4 months on the Purif at high dosages of Niacin to my mind is a squirrel application and should quite rightly be criticized/sanctioned. That is where the danger of Niacin lies, if it is a danger.
But no healthy person is going to have a problem taking Niacin for 1 week or less.
I meant “But no healthy person is going to have a problem taking high dosage Niacin for 1 week or less.”
This actually opens a door for me. Thank you for your work on this Mike. When I did my last Purif mid 2004 at CCI (thank you Paige), I was complaining that I could taste infection in my mouth. After a few weeks of this and insisting, I was allowed to get off the Purif to get some dental work done. Course first thing I did was bring a 6 pack of my favorite German beverage home and proceeded to do exactly what ever I felt like because I could. My dentist didn’t drug test me 🙂 . So at around 11pm Jack Kruchko comes home from his post to me on leave at our home.
I ask him to set-up a ladder that was so long when extended it went the length of the house it was kept behind. 30 feet. So he sets it up right next to the 1/2 empty 6 pack I was carrying around because I could. He then went to take a shower.
I remember being up at the top of it and knowing I should not step on the last rung. I was using a pair of 3 foot long branch scissors cutting the lower branches off the 120 foot eucalyptus tree when the ladder begin to turn and flip me off.
I landed with my spine on the handicap rail. I could feel my ribs cracking as I managed to move my self down to a flat area when I realized I could not breath. I very quietly cried ‘help’ ‘help me’. My daughter had a friend over who was using the bathroom and heard me. He told Claire who proceeded to save my life or I would have been one of those stats.
Mike, just a ‘heads up’ of support for peeing back yet ANOTHER assumed “fact”, that many appear to feel ‘rocks the boat ‘ Tenacity, and a great degree of tolerance, are simply indispensable to man your mission successfully! (Hooboy, some understatement!)
Your tolerance, appears to be stretched quite often, via the low blow sniping and bigotry, that invariably shows up on on almost any blog. (I NEVER do that!! Do I? LOL)
The ability to just take it all. in your stride, (including the mindless pot-shots) is well balanced through your affable humor, my friend! 🙂
I wish you much fun as you continue to highlight the DMentia of ‘Bubbledom’.
Stay ‘light’,
— Calvin 🙂
Calvin, yes,
-my man. Thanks for this, and for that demonstrated tenacity of yours as well.-mm
Now then, let’s see… looks like we’ve got a bubble needs poppin’ here,
what to do…
The conclusion I have made from reading many of the posts on here and interpreting what Helmut Flasch (see his comment) is saying is that the overall benefits of the program far outweigh the times when the program has been misapplied or wrongly administered. The poor lady who went blind and the others who have had problems with the program can and should be avoided and are real tragedies but this from what I can see is a problem with either correct administration of the rundown or as in the cases of people being overrun deliberately on the rundown – ethical administration of the rundown. People are also supposed to read and understand the materials themselves and report on any problems as they see it and as occur, and I wonder whether this was done in many of these latter cases of “Executive C/Sing”. Certainly if someone had told me to continue the Purif and I felt it was becoming injurious to my health I would have told them to get lost. But then what I would have been receiving in this instance was not the Purification Rundown but someone’s malicious interpretation of it.
My point here is was it the high dosages of Niacin that caused any problems that occurred or was it other factors such as taking vitamins on an empty stomach or other incorrect administration of the rundown? It is also quite obvious that running people on and on with high dosages of Niacin is incorrect and potentially harmful, but that is what is stated in the HCOBs not to do! Not all people reach the 5000mg dosage anyway and those that do should only be taking it for up to about 1 week if that, of the 3 weeks which should be the length of the program anyway – which is hardly going to cause anyone generally fit (which one must be to do the rundown), any problems. So one is looking at probably 4 or 5 days of high dosage Niacin and not necessarily 5000mg either – this is not going to be a problem. 4 months of taking it might do but then we are in the realms of squirreling and Executive C/Sing, which er, aren’t part of the Rundown, are they?
This is the problem.
You selectively decide that the Purif is “safe” and “good” because you believe it is something that was researched by L. Ron Hubbard and based on your experience it is good.
This is ALL ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE. (As I have said a few times now, look it up).
We are not talking about BELIEF here. We are talking about PHYSICAL HANDLINGS.
You dismiss any negative outcome as being “out tech” and “it shouldn’t have been done that way” (though you actually don’t the circumstances) and any positive outcome as “see, it proves to me that it works great.”
But, you talk about the alterations, executive C/Sing etc etc as the excuse for failed outcomes. Did you ever stop to ask yourself WHY THOSE PEOPLE EVEN THOUGHT IT WAS OK TO DOSE PEOPLE WITH MASSIVE QUANTITIES OF NIACIN?
The simple answer is that L. Ron Hubbard has told them it is perfectly safe based on his “research.”
Maybe it is. Maybe this is just an SP trying to destroy scientology and doing everything possible to discredit it.
I did set out to make any issue about the Purif. I came across information I thought was important.
I even said that I am sure believers will dismiss what i have presented.
Sorry that is the case. But I am not surprised.
I hope that in future, if you supervise anyone on the Purif, you will at least be more careful, now being aware of the information here. It’s all I asked at the outset.
Mike, I have no problem with you raising the issue of high dosage Niacin. My point was that I said I do not see any problem with dosing people (who are supposed to be generally fit and healthy before starting the rundown) with up to 5000mg of Niacin for a few days which is what the program will result in doing if done standardly, and I also pointed out that dosing people with high amounts of Niacin over a long period certainly opens the door to potential harmful effects as has been mentioned by others. I have no quarrrel whatsoever with what you stated. If this story gets people in the Church to revise their thinking on the unnecessary and seemingly malicious overrunning of the Program and the potential harmful effects of the Niacin taken therefore, which seems to have occurred in the Church, then it will indeed have saved someone perhaps from the injurious health issues such may well cause.
As to supervising the Purif which I have done in the past yes the results were tangible but as others say maybe that is because any sort of fitness program brings on tangible results, as does Hubbard mention in the HCOBs so I am not so myopic to simply believe that Scientology alone brought about (all of) the good effects.
Now I have just supervised my own son through the Rundown and got him off heroin and crack cocaine which he had been addicted to, unbeknownst to me for the last 12 years. I got him fit beforehand, just as the HCOBs state to do. My son is not a Scientologist as such. And he tells me now I have saved his life, his health has vastly improved (he could hardly defecate beforehand so that fact alone has probably saved his life), he has gotten a new job and re-established his 2D relationship which had been in tatters beforehand. In true “Ronbot” fashion of course I advised him that his thanks should really go to LRH – ha! My only skill was in reading, understanding and applying the HCOBs on the Purif. So perhaps you can see now why I have posted so much on this topic.
As I say Mike I have no quarrel with what you wrote, none at all. And I know you were not criticizing the Purif as such.
People leaving the church are less and less. When Hubbard is targetted, or tech, they stay with Miscavige and contine to give money.
lots of people had life improvement with the correct, with ARC, application of scientology.
The fascist/ totalitarian deviation of the subject by Miscavige has ruined people’s life and scientology repute.
When people like Lock write on this blog they help Miscavige keeping his yoke on scientologists. Even if not subjectively, objectively he is an OSA troll and should demande payment to them. In fact, more “ennemies” more money to IAS.
“COB” is ok with “ennemies” of scientology and Hubbard, can’t stand anyone trying to deliver scientology out of the church.
He most suppressed Marty when he was giving auditing, now that Marty is a real critic of scientology, it makes Miscavige right who was saying Marty was an SP.
Marty erased from his page the “31 factors’, and now do a little philosophy while his blog is slowly dying.
Miscavige is safe, IAS recieve money, the bubble remain. And scientology as a subject is also dying. It’s called “SP success”.
FG opined, “People leaving the church are less and less. When Hubbard is targetted, or tech, they stay with Miscavige and contine to give money.”
If 10% of the flock left per annum (for sake of argument) and since new people IN is not happening, less and less people leaving every year (in absolute numbers) would be LOGICAL and predictable.
I’ll see by your response if you can comprehend what I just posted…
John it’s not that I doubt the soundness of your mathematical reasoning, I just think FG’s statement needs confirmation before it’s treated as a fact. Perhaps he would share the means he used to arrive at his knowledge.
Yes Roger, well simple observation : no new people coming out.
From the chruch viewpoint, the revolution is “handled” while in 2012 it was blowing up.
So, since Hubbard and tech are attacked, it makes “COB” right, and people, even if aware of outpoints stay in the church, and continue to give money to Miscavige.
They value auditing and training, they dislike antiscientology. They can see that there is something wrong with Miscavige, but “outside” it seems worst, so they stay.
John Locke viewpoint for exemple serve Miscavige.
So to believe Miscavige would have interest and would understand and act that “independant scientologist”, become “antiscientology”, that’s seems real to me.
Danger for Miscavige is tech delivery outside the church.
Not antiscientology.
The christians after they took over the Roman Empire would hait heretics, not pagan who were “new public”!
“…simple observation: no new people coming out.”
FG, WHAT have you observed that shows compelling evidence of no new people coming out?
YOU DIDN’T ANSWER MY QUESTION! Instead you give me a reason why John Lock, et al. should modify their comments so as to carefully effect a pervasive dialectic that is soothing to scientologists still under the spell of David Miscavige. Start your own blog where you and Theta Clear, et al can frolic blissfully in the most specious arguments I’ve ever heard outside of an elementary school. It gets tiresome after a while listening to people who, having sustained intellectual blunt trauma from decades of Hubbardarian thinking, vainly attempt to logically support their emotions. Mike meticulously advanced a masterful argument and the result was an avalanche of embarrassingly unsound diatribes. The intelligent response would have been a simple, “Thank-you for that information, Mike.” because he put considerable work into bringing it to us.
Roger, as you can now see from FG’s reply, he has NO actual data as to a lessening (or growing) number of people leaving the church. NONE whatsoever.
ROFLMAO!
Boy, do I feel POWERFUL today. Singlehandedly with my “S.P.” powerz I’m able to keep people from leaving the Cult of Scientology AND fill the IAS coffers with gold. And to think, all the “real” OTs melt before my awesomeness and are unable to stop me.
I guess that’s how the eviol Miss Cabbage was able to dupe the mighty L. Ron and overpower the scores of LRH made OTs and trained SO members at Int.
Hmm…
Roger, John Locke. You say there is no evidence of less people leaving the church.
You want a stat? You just have to observe. Do you see any written coming out on this blog?
In 2012, I had many friends joining the “revolution”. The other friends who stayed are still in, all of them.
You are unmocking the whole subject of scientology. Are you actually ex scientologists?
Or simple anticults?
Anticults bring money to Miscavige because the suckers in the church will pay to protect the church from ennemies.
It’s why I say that you are serving Miscavige. You should ask for your check.
I’m not an ex-scientologist or anti-cult. I am anti-LRH. Of course, you can’t process the fact that anyone would be against Mankind’s Greatest Friend, can you? Surprise. And I’m not the only one.
“Roger, John Locke. You say there is no evidence of less people leaving the church.”
FG, I said no such thing. You start your response off with a false statement. I choose not to punish myself by reading any further. God only knows what distortions of logic await in ambush.
Foolproof, I’m very happy to hear about your son and how you were able to help him get off of heroin and crack. Heroin is very difficult and I hope he continues to do well.
I had problems with taking Niacin at much less than 5000mg of Niacin. More like 2500 – 3000mg. There was no way I could take 5000mg, even for a couple of days because I was bleeding. I did exactly as I was instructed; ate food, yogurt, never had an empty stomach. I don’t eat junk food, am healthy, no history of drug/alcohol abuse, etc. My CS was to take a lower dose of Niacin for that day and see what happens. I said no because I felt like my guts were coming out. I was freezing cold all the time, shivering and weak. To this day, I have to be very careful with taking supplements, antibiotics, Advil and various foods because my gastro-intestinal lining seems to be very weak. I have spoken to several other women who had almost the exact same experience, and this was prior to GATII. I was unable to do the ‘pure program’ as you might say. I don’t want to go further into how my purif went, but want to ask you; What then?
Sorry to interfere in the comm, dear Pepper, but you should have been taken off the program right away and sent to a competent medical doctor. Some people might have low tolerance for niacin as well as other vits like vit C , for example. For me 500mg of C is enough to greatly upset my digestive system. Othes can take up to 5,000mg and nothing. LRH does advice in the refs on the program about taking into account individual tolerances.
Scientologists like to play being a medical doctor a lot, and that’s not only misguided but very unprofessional as well. When I was supervising the Program some decades ago, I would immediately send to a competent M.D , anyone having a reaction no diminishing during the day’s program, specially if it was a serious one.
As I commented before, the program ought to be under the care of professional health practitioners. And full medical check-ups done before the program. The uses of tbe HCOBs on it should end the at the first indicator of any delicate condition showing up. Then standard medicine must take over.
Take care
Best regards,
Peter
Hello Pepper, I think Theta Clear’s answer would cover mine as well. Looking at the more recent documentation of the Purif there seems to be lots more medical checks and warnings etc than there was in my day. One hopes that the staff delivering it do not ignore it.
Hi again Foolproof, I was inspired by what you said about your son and had seen that you had working experience with the Purif, so I was interested in your thoughts on this. Thank you for your input and I completely agree. Take care, Pepper.
Hello Theta Clear (Peter),
No interference at all and I appreciate the fact that you cared to answer my question. Your response is practical and sound Thank you and take care, Pepper.
Thanks , dear Pepper , and take care too.
Best regards
Peter
“I’m not an ex-scientologist or anti-cult. I am anti-LRH. Of course, you can’t process the fact that anyone would be against Mankind’s Greatest Friend, can you? Surprise. And I’m not the only one.”
Espiando
I don’t see how you can be anti LRH when you actually have no experience of scientology.
Nothing is completely good or completely bad with the subject of scientology and Hubbard.
It’s a complex subject, it can be applied for more freedom or more alienation.
There are so many great things in scientology, just to see that Hubbard lied on his military medal is a terribly narrow viewpoint.
You are an objective ally of Miscavige.
Mike Rinder, didn’t leave Hubbard but Miscavige in the first place. Miscavige is a little fascist (look like Goebbels). Hubbard even with his flaw has done a great work.
Auditing given with the intention to help can do a great deal to ease burden of anxiety, sadness.
I have seen people ruined by losses, entirely recoverring with auditing. It’s a very valid psychotherapy.
The cult aspect was a wrong direction. Miscavige in power was the end of scientology. If Hubbard is a friend of mankind, Miscavige is definitely an ennemy.
I don’t see why you hate so much Hubbard.
Scientolgists will be free when Miscavige will be removed.
Disconnection will be canceled, family reunited.
And your position make scientologists stay with Miscavige.
Hater of both camp in any war help each other.
FG, according to you, you wouldn’t be able to conceive of how a person could be anti Stalinism without having had direct experience with it.
You don’t need to respond. This is posted for those educated people who later read this thread. This is an example of what prolonged submergence in scientology can do to ones logic circuits.
I can’t have any experience of Scientology. Remember, I take psych drugs, so I’d be an Illegal PC. You certainly don’t want an Illegal PC involved with Scientology, right?
And I don’t need to have any experience in Scientology to hate LRH. I hate him enough for his “kill the gays” comments, his faking his service record, and his posing as a nuclear physicist. All of this stuff is very personal with me, as I’ve stated to Calvin. He calls his works a “science” when nothing in them is based on the scientific method. The works are therefore fraudulent and require complete destruction. Fortunately, this includes the cult.
Don’t try to defend Hubbard to me. You’re not going to get anywhere.
” The works are therefore fraudulent and require complete destruction. Fortunately, this includes the cult.”
Isn’t that a little extreme, Espiando ? What about the concept of “Freedom of Religion ? Doesn’t others have a right to believe in whatever the hell the want to believe in, even if those beliefs are fairy tales ?
I guess that you don’t approve of the tenets of the “Universal Declaration of Human Rights” then ?
Do you post as well on Christian blogs and disseminate about the destruction of the Bible, or do believe that the Bible is a “sacred” texts full of “truths” ? Do you do the same with other religions ? Do you want the destruction of the Islam ?
Do you believe in God, Christ, an After Life, something else ? Or is only Science your stable datum ? I honestly want the answers to such Qs, not to invalidate your answers to them ; I am just curious about your beliefs.
TC
Here you go then, Mike. The above two, just refuse point blank, to abide by your ‘polite requests’, to refrain from the vicious ad-hom.
–Unrelenting HATE speech, passes moderation, (why?) above the “celebration” of bigotry? Really? – C’mon Mike.
See my answer to Cindy. But I do not see either the John Locke or Espi responses as “unrelenting hate speech” any more that I see FG’s ad hominem evaluations (and that is what they are) as “unrelenting hate speech.”
None of those comments come close to my threshhold for “hate speech” — but you cannot have it both ways. If you definition of “hate speech” is someone stating their disagreement with LRH, but it is OK to trash people with scientology evaluations of their state of being or state of case, then you are on the wrong blog my friend.
If you don’t like the way I do things, it is perfectly OK for you to start your own blog. And that’s not a sarcastic comment.
Hmm, stating that long exposure to scn dulls ones logic is now unrelenting hate speech and vicious ad-hom?
Fascinating indeed…
Done.
Peter:
In answer to your questions:
I don’t believe that Scientology is a religion, therefore it doesn’t qualify under the free practice of religion clauses in the UN Declaration of Human Rights or various constitutions. It is nothing more than a perverse philosophy that needs to go extinct as soon as possible.
Everyone has a right to believe in what they want, as long as those beliefs do not teach harm toward others, specifically to me. The definition of 1.1 in DMSMH and SoS teaches harm toward me. It is therefore a pro-survival action on my part to want to see that belief destroyed. Why is it such a surprise to Scientology believers on this thread that I would take a pro-survival action for myself? The greatest good for my dynamics is Scientology’s destruction. In other words, I’m following your philosophy, and you’re getting upset at me for doing so out of your own self-interests. Ron would not be happy about you not giving me ARC.
I’ve trolled the holy rollers over at CNN’s Belief section under a different identity. The terms “sky pixie” and “Bronze Age book of fiction” were used during said trolling, so I think that makes my beliefs about the Bible pretty clear. It’s really fun to piss them off by asking them if they’ve read the New Testament in the original Koine Greek when they start throwing Romans 1:26-27 at me.
As for your other question, yes, I think it would be a much better world without Christianity or Islam in it. One of my favorite alternate history ideas is, “What if bubonic plague had shown up 150 years before it did, during the Third Crusade?” The ramifications are quite interesting, and the body count is amazing.
I am an atheist. No afterlife, no next life, no Whole Track. My stable data are scientific. Ironically, this process started with a Catholic education. Take that for what you wish.
I hope this helps answer your questions.
Espiando: “The definition of 1.1 in DMSMH and SoS teaches harm toward me. It is therefore a pro-survival action on my part to want to see that belief destroyed.”
Unfortunately, Hubbard was a product of the culture in the ’50s, IMO, with respect to the attitude towards gays. As for his observation that gays are 1.1, that would actually be understandable considering the general attitude towards them back then – in other words, they were virtually forced to be “covert.” This is actually a tech principle.
But I can assure you that of the people I know who still have positive things to say about Scientology, nobody has a prejudiced view of gays. We see them as people of all kinds, like anybody else. The CoS and other fundamentalists may be different – but as you know, they have their own outpoints.
” Peter:
In answer to your questions:
I don’t believe that Scientology is a religion, therefore it doesn’t qualify under the free practice of religion clauses in the UN Declaration of Human Rights or various constitutions. It is nothing more than a perverse philosophy that needs to go extinct as soon as possible.”
TC : First of all, thanks a lot for your answers and honesty about them. Now, countries around the world have been having great debates for decades , many of them in superior or high courts, about how to correctly define “religion”. Even one of the governments that had attacked Scn furiously and had even banned its practices for almost a decade, the Victoria government at Australia (with is famous “Anderson Report”) , was obliged to finally accept Scn as a religion even though that the opinions accompanying such decision was very negative towards Scn.
What constitute religion in most legal documents around the world, has nothing to do necessarily with reason or logic, but mostly with the rights of others to freely believe in what they want as long as the rights of others are not being violated. Many great legal battles have been fought to protect that right of religion around the world.
By your analysis, is one if going to be true to it, then Christianity and many other religions such as Islam must be “destroyed” as well. Isn’t it better to allow others to believe in whatever they wish to believe in even if those beliefs are misguided and are plain fixations in stupidities ? Isn’t it better to fight the parts of any religions that violate Human Rights, leaving other parts alone ?
“Everyone has a right to believe in what they want, as long as those beliefs do not teach harm toward others, specifically to me.”
TC : I got you, all right, doesn’t most religions do just that to a greater or lesser degree ?
” The definition of 1.1 in DMSMH and SoS teaches harm toward me. It is therefore a pro-survival action on my part to want to see that belief destroyed.”
TC : I totally understand, but why not just rehabilitate it ; “destroy” the parts that are harmful and leave the rest alone. Isn’t it easier to rehabilitate and to forgive than to destroy ?
“Why is it such a surprise to Scientology believers on this thread that I would take a pro-survival action for myself? The greatest good for my dynamics is Scientology’s destruction. In other words, I’m following yourphilosophy,and you’re getting upset at me for doing so out of your own self-interests. Ron would not be happy about you not giving me ARC.”
TC : The interest of others, and their right of religion is my only real purpose, dear Espiando, and that includes YOU as well ; your right to believe that Scn is harmful for you. I only want to understand you, not to stop you.
I’”ve trolled the holy rollers over at CNN’s Belief section under a different identity. The terms “sky pixie” and “Bronze Age book of fiction” were used during said trolling, so I think that makes my beliefs about the Bible pretty clear. It’s really fun to piss them off by asking them if they’ve read the New Testament in the original Koine Greek when they start throwing Romans 1:26-27 at me.”
TC : And you just do it for the fun of it ? Isn’t that a little enturbulative to yourself ? Why focus in something you will never really change ?
“As for your other question, yes, I think it would be a much better world without Christianity or Islam in it. One of my favorite alternate history ideas is, “What if bubonic plague had shown up 150 years before it did, during the Third Crusade?” The ramifications are quite interesting, and the body count is amazing.”
TC : Somehow I feel that you are portraying yourself as something you
are really not. You want us to think that you are “bad” ; I don’t buy it.
” Iam an atheist. No afterlife, no next life, no Whole Track. My stable data are scientific. Ironically, this process started with a Catholic education. Take that for what you wish.”
TC : I was like you when I was an engineering student many decades ago. I hated all religions, specially Christianity. I used to engage in these great scientific debates with true believers, and drive them utterly crazy. I was so good at that. My god was Science. It was everything to me. No spirituality at all, just cuases and effects, equations and material logic. But I was sad ; so sad and empty most of the time.
Luckily, I discovered the concept of Faith, not “Faith in”. I discovered that there were more to life than just a bunch of carbon based compounds ; that “thought” was actually a “Prime Mover”. That Science was only a part of life intended to service individuals, and to take us to realms where the laws of physics doesn’t necessarily hold. A place where peace of mind and the serenity of the spirit were the true stable data.
I discovered poetry and the real beauty of the forms, I discovered Art, music, and many other things than can’t possible be the result of chemical combinations in a sea of probabilities.
I sincerely hope that you can discover those things as well. That the spiritual realm be a balm to you ; a new frontier, a new hope. There comes a time in our life when we need to redefine our beliefs. When we must evaluate what are the real important things in life. I found that inspiration through the miracle of life : a daughter. My sunshine, my reason to never lose hope and faith. I wish that you can find your own inspiration as well.
” Ihope this helps answer your questions”
TC : Yes, it did ; thank you.
Best regards,
Peter
Marildi, I believe that individual Scientologists may not have any beef against me (outside of the unbridgeable (no pun intended) disagreement regarding psych drugs; I’ve had wins off of the ones I’m taking). I know what the culture was like in the early 50s for members of my tribe. That being said, here’s two points:
1) I accept that being gay back then necessarily meant being covert. However, 1.1 is “covert hostility”. Hostility toward what? Saying that LGBTs are 1.1 makes LRH sound like some of the right-wing freaks who believe there’s a “gay agenda” to take over America. Normally, I’d just roll my eyes at stuff like this if not for…
2)…the words “eliminate, quietly and without sorrow”. It sure sounds like concentration camps for anyone below 2.0 on the Tone Scale. And the only group of people that both LRH and the Nazis condemned to that fate were homosexuals.
You can understand how difficult it might be for me to tell friend from enemy. But given the Indie predilection for quoting LRH and unequivocally accepting those quotes as a truth, I have to assume “enemy”.
Hi Espiando, I will be the first to admit as a brain that is so convoluted when it comes to science and math and biology etc,you have all the right to laugh with me if we met outside this blog.That being said I do agree with you re: Ron and his viewpoint with gays my reason is personal as you may have gathered.One gay lost because of hate or fear of hate is one too many.However I read your posts to others and always take something away from them.Just because you were never in does not mean your viewpoint is not yours to express.Always Ann.
Espiando: “However, 1.1 is ‘covert hostility’. Hostility toward what?
My understanding is that someone at the tone level of 1.1 would have a general hostility – and this would include those who were suppressed into that level of the tone scale. The same would be true for other tones. Have you ever seen anybody who was chronically (rather than occasionally) at anger? I have – they usually find all kinds of things to be angry about. The same kind of thing would be true for antagonism, fear, boredom, grief etc.
Quoting you again: “But given the Indie predilection for quoting LRH and unequivocally accepting those quotes as a truth, I have to assume ‘enemy’.”
It may be that unequivocal acceptance is true for the more fundamentalist Indies, but even among those there are people who are familiar enough with the materials that they don’t quote things out of context – and they are also familiar with changes in the philosophy and tech as time went on, so they include those changes in their thinking.
Also to be fair, I would say that the critics are just as bad with regard to (supposedly) quoting LRH and “unequivocally accepting those quotes as truth.” It seems to me they mostly quote each other – and often the quotes are misquotes. Or else incomplete. For example, in the context of “without sorrow,” they never include the following excerpts (emphasis in all caps is mine):
“Society, recognizing that the greatest danger from an individual lies in the band from anger down to 1.1, has sought to safeguard itself by suppressing these people permanently into an apathy level; this control mechanism, however, is as unworkable as it is widespread, since individuals in the apathy strata can rebound sporadically up into the active strata and so are still thoroughly dangerous. The only answers WOULD SEEM TO BE the permanent quarantine of such persons from society to avoid the contagion of their insanities and the general turbulence which they bring into any order, thus forcing it lower on the scale – OR PROCESSING such person until they have attained a level on the tone scale which gives them value.
[…]
“It is not necessary to produce a world of Clears in order to have a reasonable and worthwhile social order; it is only necessary to delete those individuals who range from 2.0 down, either by processing them enough to get their tone level above the 2.0 line – a task which, indeed, is not very great, since the amount of processing in many cases might be under fifty hours, although it might also in others be in excess of two hundred – or simply quarantining them from the society.”
Note that it wasn’t just gays, or even just 1.1.’s, that he was talking about. And that “disposing” of them meant quarantining – not what many critics make it into.
In any case, we shouldn’t generalize about “Indies” any more than gays should be generalized about. Fair enough, fellow human being? 🙂
Hello Marildi,
I was just thinking about what you had said early this morning and then read your post. I recall being on course and reading what Hubbard said about homosexuality, or in particular what he wrote about “curing the homosexual” with valence processing.
This was always very offensive to me and there were several times where I actually wanted to stand up and throw the book against the wall. I never did this of course, and instead calmed myself down and looked at it. I also had the same viewpoint as you that Hubbard was a product of his times. In Hubbard’s time, gays were committed to psychiatric institutions and were considered sick. This is pretty heinous to think about but it was once practiced and was considered ‘okay’ by the psychiatric community. Today it is not and I just gave this as an overt example, not as an attack on psychiatry itself.
I have wondered if I was making excuses for Hubbard, or rationalizing his beliefs. Personally, I believe that I was, and I do consider his writings on gays to be hate speech. Something that I would really like to know, is that if Hubbard were alive today, would he have taken back what he said and repented? Unfortunately, we will never know.
I understand why Espiando feels the way he does and I don’t blame him. I even think that his emotion is appropriate for the situation. He has every right to speak up against this type of discrimination, even though yes, it was written over fifty years ago and Hubbard is dead and gone now.
You are very correct in what you said in the last paragraph about Scientologists. I have audited someone who was gay in the church and the CS had no problem with it. This person was treated as anyone else. However, this person was on Grades, and I don’t know what would happen once he got on to OT levels. I think it might be a different story there. Also, it is the fundamentalists and the CoS that has an issue with gays. People I know who are Scientologists yet not fundamentalists for the most part do not.
I just wanted to share my thoughts. Take care.
Excellent comment. The problem with this approach, and I know it was how I ratioanlized it when I was in the church, is the fundamental dogma of scientology.
It is heresy to say something is “old” or “is no longer applicable” — “KSW” dictates that the words of Hubbard are never to be altered. Never to be challenged.
I don’t care how anyone tries to justify it or explain it — the church of scientology IS homophobic. It is inbred into the “think”. There may be exceptions. Scientologists tend to think they can “cure” homosexuality. It is a question on life history forms that disqualifies you for executive posting. It is a question on numerous sec checks. It is considered an overt to engage in “homosexual acts” in scientology. If you do so, you are handled in ethics and then with auditing to try and handle the “aberration.”
That IS the shameful culture of fundamentalist scientology.
To pretend otherwise is foolish. And dishonest.
Hi Pepper,Wonderful post,wonderful you! XO Always,Ann.
Cindy, thanks for sharing you thoughts! I enjoy reading your posts. You take care too.
Pepper, as late as the 80’s we KNOW how Hubbard felt about homosexuals. MISSION EARTH.
His hatred was unchanged from back in the 50’s.
I am curious, John, as I’ve never read Mission Earth but only his other work after the 80s , Battlefield Earth. What is to be found about homophobia in Mission Earth ? Can you elaborate , please ?
Hi John and understood. Notice how I said that I HAD the same viewpoint that Hubbard was a product of his times? Past tense. This meant when I was a student on course – at that time. Mental gymnastics.
Allow me to expand on what I said about auditing someone who was gay in the church. This was on Grades and I never considered his sexual orientation to be an issue of significance and neither did the CS at that time. We just ran the Grades and didn’t get into sec (or sex) checks, etc. on the subject. Basically, we ignored it and didn’t care. I wrote that to Marilidi based on my exact experience at the time and did say that the CoS and fundamentalists are problematic.
I do believe however, that if this person had continued and moved up the processing Grade Chart, he WOULD have had problems with his sexual orientation being an issue. I also believe that he would have had a hard time to get on the OT levels, get lots of sec checking, and would have been given an FPRD program do to first. In other words, he would have been put ‘through the wringer.’ I do not know what later became of this person in Scientology.
Unfortunately, there is a homophobic culture in the CoS. I know a young person right now who is closeted. He’s being put through the paces and is at the bottom of the Bridge. I feel very badly for him, but the dynamics in his life have a strong influence on him. I can’t say much else now. I do not recommend that any person who is LGBT go to the Church of Scientology and do the Bridge. There are many other inclusive congregations today if someone is looking for a church to join for spiritual fellowship.
Back to John: Mission Earth has a trans-gay-whatever-erotic side plot in my opinion. Someone had something on his mind and a fantasy or two.
Pepper, not sure why you are repeating yourself as I understood you the 1st time. I simply showed that Hubbard was a hater until the end. Not just back in the 50’s.
As far as homosexuality & OT levels. Before DM took over (I don’t know about after) if one were STILL homosexual after Clear one could do an extensive ethics program and route onto Ad courses but had to abstain from ANY homosexual activities (they sec checked to make sure). I know someone who went up through 7 like that.
T.C. Hubbard spewed anti homosexual stuff throughout the M.E. 10 volumes. It makes up quite a lot of the text. I veritable Tour de force of homophobia. I’m sure that one of your friends has multiple copies that can be lent out.
John, sorry. I get what you’re saying about Hubbard’s ideas in the 1980’s being homophobic. Still, in the 1980’s gays were being murdered and people with AIDS were feared and stigmatized. The 1980’s wasn’t so great for gays either but the social climate was slowly changing. We still have a ways to go though; look what’s happening with gays (females too) in the Middle East for example, and the U.S. could still improve.
Right John, that’s why I said sorry. I have a tendency to repeat myself and you are not the first person to bring this to my attention 🙂
I totally agree with you about the OT levels. My thoughts are that the OT levels are delivered by the Sea Org. The Sea Org is dedicated to safeguarding the tech and putting ethics in on the planet. They have to follow what Hubbard writes about everything, including all the anti-gay stuff. Anyone who is LGBT will have a very difficult time ‘moving up the Bridge’ and I would think it impossible.
And Mission Earth, well what can I say? My take was that Hubbard had some interest in the area. Multiple copies? Ha! Remember the overpriced prints from M.E. and Battlefield Earth that Author Services was selling? I’ve seen a lot of those in my day too.
Mike, I did the Purif twice and each time I was required to get a doctor’s exam before I could route on. These exams both included an EKG. I can’t see anyone doing the Purif who has a weak heart or liver trouble, for starters.
And my understanding is/was that any acute or chronic illness immediately disqualifies a person from the Purif.
Both times I completed in 3 weeks and both times I didn’t get up to 5000 whatevers of niacin until well into my 3rd week. I ran out sunburns, or at least one very bad one, and I know I ran it out because I did see the pattern of a former bathing suit on my body, a bathing suit in which I got the sunburn to end all sunburns when I was sixteen.
But yes, this is purely anecdotal.
Frankly, I think if someone has a healthy body and does the Purif it might not help them but its unlikely to hurt them.
That’s just my opinion and you’re spot on in pointing out that no formal studies were ever done, and people (including myself) do (did) the Purif because we BELIEVED what LRH wrote, and certainly that isn’t scientific.
Aquamarine, I would love to know what “running out a sunburn” means. What is being run out?
Aqua – It is not purely anecdotal. Clinical studies are exactly observations of individuals.
Hopefully for the last time:
In science, definitions of anecdotal evidence include:
“casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis”[9]
“information passed along by word-of-mouth but not documented scientifically”[citation needed]
Anecdotal evidence can have varying degrees of formality. For instance, in medicine, published anecdotal evidence by a trained observer (a doctor) is called a case report, and is subjected to formal peer review.[10] Although such evidence is not seen as conclusive, it is sometimes regarded as an invitation to more rigorous scientific study of the phenomenon in question.[11] For instance, one study found that 35 of 47 anecdotal reports of drug side-effects were later sustained as “clearly correct.”[12]
Anecdotal evidence is considered the least certain type of scientific information.[13] Researchers may use anecdotal evidence for suggesting new hypotheses, but never as validating evidence.
The study of 26,000 people over 3 years, measuring outcomes is not “anecdotal evidence”. Accumulation of experience or observations of people on the purif is. There is no scientific method employed in “studying” the Purif.
How can you jut continue trying to “defend” the indefensible?
The study exists. You can outright claim “I don’t care, it’s all bullshit anyway and I am just going to keep on believing what I believe (a la Helmut Flasch)” but trying to explain it away and say “it doesnt apply because harm only comes when out tech delivery of the purif is involved” is silly and at this point very tiresome.
Happy I am going to put up a new posting this morning.
To clarify, the difference between “anecdotal” and “clinical” is simply that individual results are monitored under supervision to qualify them as “clinical”. The supervision tries to ensure that standard procedures are followed, to test whatever is being tested.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
I.e. If the standard is three days at gradient dosage, then that qualifies for the clinical testing’ and six weeks (or eight months) at highest dosage is thrown out.
Whatever. Just keep dosing people up with niacin and ignore anything I have said. I am happy for you to be right. Just hope you don’t maim anyone in the process.
Mike – I don’t know where you got the idea I ignore anything you have said. I do not run the Purif. Never have. If someone has no broken leg, I don’t do a Dn assist for a broken leg. I haven’t done the Purif, and do not intend to. Personally, I think LRH could not bring himself to draw a line and refuse to help another, so he went down for the drug cases and even addicts. A judge once said to some guy he was about to convict to 18 years after five offenses on the same charges over the years: there is no more sad a thing one man can say to another than, “I cannot help you.” The judge had tried sentencing to rehab programs, paroles, leniency, community service, etc. for years. LRH didn’t have a monopoly on compassion. His own advice to Missions was to not get involved with patients in psych clinics, but to go for the most able. Anyone can make mistakes, I think that pointing out truths is not a crime. Some people think that IS a crime. As LRH once quipped, the only crime in this universe is being there and communicating. His sense of humor is vastly under-appreciated.
At last someone is making sense here with this word game of “anecdotal” bull-shit !!!
My god , so many “scientists” want-to-be.Hilarious !
I do beg your pardon.
Yo, foolproof, I liked your post, very civilized. Now the reason I did the Purif. was that I was dying anyway so what was there to lose. So here I am a seventy nine year old bastard giving some people something to bitch about.
Thanks for your nice comment Ron. I’m getting on a bit as well! Good on yer, carry on bitching – ha!
I fundamentally support your provocational idea in that your position is unmistakeable, and easily understood, big big plus, but…
I admire you for much bigger and more relavent, I mean meaningful as a whole, ways.
So, ha.
No I wanted to say, because I needed to put in a comparitive way, such is the bend I’m on, that the only difference between you and me is presentation. Let me know if I may compose, it would seriously benifit your cause.
I’m on your team, whatever that may be, and I’m just pleased to be accepted here. I get the game and I got some ideas, which if I can’t do at least I might be able to describe. Real fun for me and pleasure to know you all. I am me. Now if I don’t get to the beach I’m gonna be late for The game, thank goodness its all walking distance.
I was supposed to put “for you” in there but i was, am deeply concerned about the blatant homosexual connotation [ hey, CON NOTATION, hm. That would be, puts me well past half way to building my own double tringle, looped by the cosmic Universe upon itself, right through the middle of My Triangles. How mesmorizing is that? Shit. You never know what people think.—mm.
I would like have my moniker be little m’s, not capitol ones, like at Chris Shelton’s blog, which I wanna encourage everybody to occasionally visit, do it. It makes him happy and, oh, he’s Great teacheR.
Bye- that’s:
mark marco
the capitols give the pronouns too much unpruven authority, see. Like the litte ankles, too, just a weakness of mine, shy-zaa…ahh. Excuse me.
Mark Marco, forgive me, but I don’t have a clue as to what you are trying to say. Tod date I’ve had no problem understanding your postings but these two are just beyond the beyond, so much that I’m thinking that maybe you’re not the same Mark Marco, and using this handle, the way someone else recently used Cindy’s name, and it wasn’t her.
Edit: “…and it wasn’t she”.
Do you know what?
I was stoned. Honest to god. I was laughing so hard all the way through writing that, just happy for all the work I had accomplished and knowing then that I was about to go to the beach and all, I even forgot to put who I was addressing that to, which was John, John Locke, who had spoken a word of admiration to me. You are absolutely forgiven, btw, and I remember you saying something very cool before and so I’m glad to be meeting you in the here and now. The lesson here is do not write while stoned unless you want to confuse people, marco, after all this is a serious endeavor, good call on your part and I’m glad you did because I was feeling kinda weird bringing my coffee here and looking at what I had written here. um, oops. I’d start over,
John,
I understand you provocational style, admire it to a degree as it gets people’s attention and leaves your audience with little doubt as to your position. But, it gets old and I believe your compromising the power of your words and wonderful knowledge. We could talk I guess but we don’t really need to, all you need to do, really, is delete the unneccessary snide attacks on other people’s knowingness, that would make a good start.
You do it all the time, after generally making a good point at the top, it is like you just can’t help yourself.
Meanwhile, we have this bubble to pop.
On that purpose, exposing the fraud that is this “thing”, the cult and its doctrine, we are quite the same. The total fraud and failure that is LRH. The difference between us is just presentation, and I am most pleased to be in your company.
My money was on drunk…. I thought you were drunk.
Stoned makes sense too.
Or OT.
MM, thanks for your candid explanation! LOL! I’m relieved that what you wrote this time was “you under the influence” and not YOU, if you catch my drift 🙂
I don’t know…..I kinda like the ‘other’ Marco too!
I am me, and I was mentioning it because I was afraid I was throwing you.
Not to leave you assuredly rested, but, i did lie about being stoned. Your choice, whether I was lying then or now, but now at least you know I’m capable. Intentionally threw out a plausible explanation to hide the truth, that I’m a third-level ADD victim. Sad but true. Good news is that doesn’t mean psychotic sociopath. Although some freely put the connotation there. What does it mean? Well, they say something different than I do. I say my brain has a nasty habit of trying to think on 4 or 5 lines simultaneously, and shove them over with their evaluations, having grown up that way. The vast majority of humankind just blows me off as stupid, and skinny helps to make me a, for some, an ideal target. Throw in a bona-fide paranoid skitzophrenic Type-3 mother, (I just can’t spell that to save my life) and you pretty much have my life story. Lighting up and inhaling the smoke of burning marijuana is literally taking on about 50 million free radicals and launching them directly onto, in my case, already slightly over-heated brain receptors, I think you get it. But, yeah, get excited and I get excited, add a couple triggers maybe and, presto, I am flat out stoned on nothin but good ol’ thin air out of the clear, blue sky. Makes me a cheap date as girls drive be bananas every single time. Kids too but I only add that to scare the [shit] out of you. Meanwhile, that’s two ways I know to have real fun. Kids know how to have fun and I’ve never forgotten, is about the size of it. It’s my brother that’s the real sex offender. And you thought I was just funny. Stoned is a good, similar state of being, analogy. Easier to explain anyway.
The rest of beings smart enough to know I wasn’t dumb, just got intimidated, I should say mutually, which leaves me in a dangerous situation without really knowing why, as a 19-year old, anyway. Ripe candidate for, …you guessed it. Too bad the Catholics couldn’t come with anything I was willing to buy.
The second part of that note was actually trying to say something (well, as was the first. I suppose this would be a good moment to acknowlege a degree of delusion was, in fact, in progress. Consider that I was actually understanding myself) I got such a load of myself just by putting CON in capitol letters, perhaps a first for me, that I jumped in my minds eye to having had created two points of a triangle, isn’t that just great?And, also only because I created such greatness, was two-thirds the way towards creating my own, cosmic religion, see? Perfect sense. That’s how easy it is,
to be a big fake like Ron. Whew. The things that happen when seen through the distorting prism of enstonedement. I mean, ADD, of course, gods’ honest truth, every word, or i’m not the real me.
Another aspect of this Niacin deal that I have not heard mentioned (although I have not read all of the comments) is that supplements are marketed by whoever wants to be in the racket with impunity. the FDA and other consumer protection agencies stand aside and let this all go on without interference. That’s why we see all of these supplements advertised on the internet, often in prominent spots on major sites which appear to lend an air of legitimacy to these ads. “As seen on TV” advertisements promise anything that marks want to hear, from 50 lb lost in 20 days to a more impressive and super-humanly functional male organ.
In the absence of regulation, supplements are manufactured by all kinds of operators, with all kinds of “quality control” (or not) in all kinds of places globally. Some supplements do nothing; they flush out of our system without even being absorbed. They can be observed intact after leaving our system (should one be so inclined). Others absorb to various degrees. In addition to their advertised content, they may include all kinds of other substances. Dosages may or may not be accurate.
I don’t know where the cherch of Narconon gets their supplements. But if I know anything about this outfit, it’s safe to assume that their source is cheap and may not stand up to prolonged periods of scrutiny. Just an educated guess, of course.
One of the greater dangers of street drug intake is the fact that the user has no idea as to the provenance of their get-well substance (other than the fact that they may safely assume that profit maximization figured prominently into the production process). So they enter the Narconon “program,” presumably in already awful physical shape, and nothing much changes with respect to the quality and provenance of the drugs that they are being (over-) fed.
To add to the already bleak picture, the “recovery house” industry is largely unregulated (particularly for national or global players who can choose to set up shop in regulation-friendly environments). All kinds of approaches exist, religious, spiritual, secular, medical, behavioral, confrontational, non-medical, alternative medical, and on and on. Given the enormity of the societal problem, operating such an institution is like a license to print money and between medical insurers, gov’t subsidies, court-ordered diversion programs and at least some well-heeled desperate souls, the upside is enormous. Many of the staff and operators of these facilities are driven by an idealism (or cynicism) that is in no way matched by their skills. If Jerry Garcia can’t enter a rehab facility and expect to emerge unscathed, how much hope is there for the rest of us?
So is it any wonder that the scientology “church” would set up shop in such an environment?
Hi Todd Cray, A very well done and interesting post.Thank you.Is it any wonder indeed that Scientology would set up shop in such an environment. Also as I posted somewhere before at Asho F as letter reg etc I was never to respond to those in prison or any one in Narconon.Makes me wonder now why Scientology trots that group out as much as they do today?Always like your posts.Ann.
The Purification Rundown does not remove toxins from the body to any extent. Some reasons why those who have wins on the Purif are:
1. Placebo.
2. Want to tow the line. Want to be a good Scientologist, and write a good success story. (Part of this is placebo).
3. Will do anything to get off the Purif, including faking wins and writing a success story.
4. Wishful thinking. Uneducated justification. “Look at all this sweat, I must be getting rid of all sorts of toxins!”
5. Mistaking the inevitable changes that the body will go through on the purif as beneficial changes. “I’m getting sicker, the Purif must be running out something”.
These are some anyway.
The fundamentals of the Purif are unsound. It’s really just nuts. And it does not remove toxins from the body.
NIACIN
Before I get to the point of defending Niacin I need to give out some personal history.
When I was a wee lad (maybe two) I went out in the back yard in my little sun suit with straps over my shoulders and got a very bad sunburn and could never be out in the sun for more than 20 min. or I would get dizzy and a fever and burn like a SOB.
In 1975 I was dying from some undocumented disease that doctors didn’t seem to know how to diagnose.I weighed 136 pounds, Had total migraines, vomiting, fatigue,ate a lot of sugar, etc. almost on a daily basis. I was also being exposed to chemical toxins at work at the time as well.
I decided to do the purif. to see if I could kick the problem.
I spent 70 days on it at ASHO. After about 3 weeks I felt great at 165 degrees and went ext. and could have EPed. but pressed on because I wasn’t stable yet. I was taking 3000 mg of niacin and the other accompaniments when I finished.
Wins: The first sunburn turned on with a flush with visible white stripes over my shoulders, I also saw numbers and a star on other participants in the Sauna .I blew off some purplish color on my neck, arms and chest which was caused from UV and ex ray from arc welding in a tee shirt. I also recoverd some OT abilities I had lost However I was still working in a very harsh environment but not devoid of that “disease” . I can now stay out in the sun for hours and get a light tan with no burning.
After the purif.
I tried alternate medical treatments with little or no results until I hooked up with Pat Butcher
an ex SO who had a clinic and we discovered that I had Candida (caused by too many antibiotics) that thrived on sugar, a piss poor diet that I had been living on.
In present time: I had handled some of the Candida on OT5 and the rest with diet , vitamins and now I occasionally take Niacin when I have been exposed to radiation or toxic substances.
Some interesting reactions to Niacin: 500mg.
Flushing, yeah, it comes and goes. If I was a knee jerk novice I might possibly believe that I was gonna die any minute now. Heating or cooling sensation at any particular part of the body including internal organs. Shaking too, inside or out, it’s all good, an E ticket ride so to speak. Hour to hour and a half is the usual duration. I don’t try to accomplish anything important during one of these episodes. I feel great for a week or so after that. I’m 79 yo.
One more thing I forgot to mention: No two “thetans”, spirits are alike and no two bodies are alike or have mutual experiences or histories so some are going to react differently to auditing or the purif. No two people respond to an event the same way either
Some one asked about GE’s, well since GE’s want to survive they learn to drive cars as well, solely to save their own ass from poor drivers.
Ron, if no two thetans are the same and react differently, then how does the ‘tech’ work 100% of the time, if applied per LRH instructions.
Not most of the time or some of the time, but ALL of the time…..
Chee Chalker.I can’t believe that this exchange has to take place. If you were you and I were the same would we even have to have this conversation? The tech stays the same but “individuals” have different events in their case and their cogs are different. Not everyone runs the same because they are— Different, not even close to being the same,OK?
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about Ron. But let’s use cancer as an example. Everyone who has cancer reacts different to treatment. That is why treatments are tailored to an individual.
L. Ron Hubbard, a man who failed out of college, is dictating medical treatments.
As Mike pointed out, that is not a matter of faith and is potentially dangerous.
LRH is telling you to follow his ‘tech’ which was 1) not researched and 2) not based on anything scientific.
I presume you are out of David Miscavige’s ‘church’. But IMO, there is not much difference between COP and LRH. You might remember the old Who lyric…..”meet the new boss ….same as the old boss”
Hi Chee Chalker, Saw this post this morning and thank you,thank you.Cancer acts and behaves in a world Ron/David can’t enter because they won’t ever say they do not speak Total Truth Always.One I suppose could be a good indie and still go to a dentist or dr when needed.But I could be very wrong.Love,Ann.
What does cancer have to do with my previous post.Latest research indicates that “cancer is a fungus” and eventually turns into a tumor.The pain comes from the buildup of acetaldehyde /formaldehyde. I knew total pain.
Hi Ron Doolittle,I apologize, I got my posts mixed up.No worries I will not post here about my cancers again.Always Ann.
Hi Ann! You post about your cancer as often as you want! I know I am always interested in hearing how you are doing. Ron Dolittle does not seem to understand what an analogy is….perhaps it is a M/U for him…….besides, I think his comment was directed toward me, so don’t worry about it.
Anyhow, you are the kindest person on this blog, so don’t pay this Dolittle any attention.
Sadly, Dolittle spends his days defending the indefensible.
Gotta love his name though…..Ron Do Little….yes, Ron Hubbard did little that made sense. Ron Hubbard did little to actually help people…….
You’re the best Ann!
Hi Chee Chalker,I’m Back! Thanks to Mike’s kindness and the elves who help with with this Blog.Thank you,Ann had some happy tears when I read your sweet and understanding post.Love you forever and keep me posted!XXOO Ann.
I’m pretty sure that I said nothing about Cancer, I was talking about case. Chee brought up the whole cancer thing.If the tech is applied correctly there is some sort of change even it it infinitesimally small. It may not work on dopers,alcoholics, walking dead,vegetables, rocks, etc but who can say what took place except the pc and especially if he is not aware of being a spirit. Case gain can occur at a later time without the pc putting the dots together but another process might latently open the gates as well. If I direct my comments to someone I will mention their name, so don’t dub in something I didn’t say. Chiao.
To Ron Dolitle,Wow.Ann.
Ann, thanks for starting my day with a big hearty laugh! “Wow” says a lot in three little letters!
Hi Roger Hornaday,Thank you from my heart for picking up on that! Love,love you.PS I am no saint but as an X letter reg I’ve seen it all and will probably see it all again.Laughter with you!XO
You are awesome Ann. And by the way, cancer is not a fungus. If only…
Hi Pepper, Oh my thank you from this heart straight to yours! I would honestly love for cancer to be a fungus,that would be so much better! As it is I just have to keep my spirit up and keep fighting it! Awesome Love back to you.Always, Ann.
… and pray we don’t get fooled again…
Yes, nearly every time I think of Ron, I wind up hearing those words, the song sung by The Who.
You beat me to the punch, and good for you!
Ron, I was using cancer as an analogy……
You stated “no two thetans are alike’
Yes, that is true, the world did not need LRH to know that no two people are alike.
My point was…how does this ‘tech’ (the purif) work 100% of the time on everyone? That would be like saying chemo cures everyone of the cancer 100% of the time (if applied correctly).
That’s not true and its not true (in part) because people react differently to different things.
Why then, if no two thetans are alike, does the tech work on them? Assuming the same tech is applied the same way to each person.
Or are you telling me that LRH taliors his tech to each individual thetan?
Take Niacin go into the sauna for X hours and all the radiation, drugs, pollution, etc will be ‘run out’ of your body.
What if my thetan had a bad experience with Niacin ? What if I was poisoned by Niacin in another life?
I just don’t understand how ANYTHING can work for EVERYONE 100% of the time….of course, we always have that little caveat….’if applied standardly’ because that was LRH’s ‘out’.
Oh, the purif didn’t make you feel better? YOU must have done something wrong…. YOU must not have applied it standardly’.
As an aside, didn’t LRH say that Dianetics cured leukemia? (A type of cancer)
I’m not trying to be rude, but I don’t follow the logic of the ‘tech’ which is basically ‘it works 100% of the time, unless it doesn’t and if it doesn’t, you did something wrong’
To me, that is akin to saying ‘this medicine works 100% of the time on everyone….if it doesn’t, it’s your fault’
Chee, a “thetan” and a “person” are two different things. A person has a physical body that is slightly radioactive and a thetan is a spirit soul, an entity for whose existence there is no evidence. I don’t think thetans are radioactive, though. According to the foremost authority on spirit-souls, they have no location in time or space so they wouldn’t be affected by ionizing or non-ionizing radiation. Oddly, they ARE affected by events taking place within sensory range of the physical body to which they are connected. I don’t think there is any detailed explanation for this apparent inconsistency but it’s the big picture that matters not the little inconsistencies. Or whatever.
Hi Ron, can we back up a bit to those OT abilities you recovered? I and a few others would love to know what they are.
Roger, think, PARKING SPACES. 🙂
PARKING SPACES??? I fell out of my chair on that one!
But seriously John, I’m talking about REAL OT abilities. (this is your turn to fall out of a chair!)
Hi Roger Hornaday, Yes about those OT abilities Ron. I’d like to know too.XO Ann.
I don’t share my wins with my attackers, or trolls. I do however share them with friends or others that have shared theirs with me. There is a hostile percentage of posters here that don’t trust or like, so sorry but no thanks.
How very OT…
Ron, you have a policy which forbids you to explain to me and my ilk your PUBLIC statements about having OT abilities. That policy bears a resemblance to the Fifth Amendment but with a big dollop of moral superiority on top.
Some wins from scn.I will share with strangers.37 years ago when I was a 1.1 critical asshole I was coerced by a friend to do the HQS course. It was difficult because I knew best even though I could not communicate and held others in contempt.
It took me a long time but I was finally able to see the decency in others and was willing and able to admire and grant beingness to others and I was also able to spot sociopaths and later psychopaths and politely avoid them because we’re politically correct nowadays unlike in the frontier days we just shot them and nobody cried about it, well maybe a whore or two did.
Some wins: If I am on a road race track at 150mph and my necessity level requires it I sometimes manipulate time to get ahead by skipping a few beats, that’s how races are won. Light postulates work as well. Traffic is usually light and uneventful, like for instance if I go to a bank or restaurant there is seldom a line but one forms up behind me shortly thereafter.
I see other people’s intentions and feel their tone levels generally. I love and appreciate my fellow man but could cap a crim. if it was necessary to help him fulfill his Karmic wish.
I can spot a 1.1 within minutes because I once was one. Psychopaths are much more difficult to spot. They act like a carefully calculating Mr. Been. Many of the posters on this blog can spot them too.
I can imagine and mock up a machine and run it in my mind. And I can build it as well. I usually communicate with animals like most of us can. I don’t pull in cops anymore after grade four of all things, who woulda thought.
I am interested in others and what they have to say as I always learn something from or about them (good or bad) by how they act and communicate. I may get a shitstorm of ill intentioned invalidation from some of you but that’s OK because others on this blog know where that comes from.
Awesome post, Ron Dolittle.
Yes, awesome post, Ron Doolittle. And yes we do know where ill intentioned invalidation and joking and degrading come from. Thanks for having the courage to stand up and be counted in a place that has now become politically incorrect to do so. It wasn’t always like this on Mike’s blog.
Politically incorrect? Seriously? Because there are people who disagree? I would wager that Espiando and John Locke have more people “attacking” them (or opposing their vehement anti-scn, anti-Hubbard views) than any “pro” person has attacking them. The difference with those two is that they don’t complain about how everyone is against them — they just keep stating their position. You can agree or disagree with them, but I don’t think they are in the majority or are treated as better or lesser than anyone else who comments here.
Obviously it is not your perspective, sorry about that.
I do my best to make it possible for everyone to air their views.
Except when they start to attack me personally like Helmut Flasch. I am not going to let him use my blog to call me names. My idea of free speech ends when they want to take the venue I have built to shit on me. Sorry, I might not be the brightest bulb in the chandelier, but I am not outright dumb.
Cindy and Mike, when I commented above that Ron Dolittle’s post was awesome, it was for the same reason Cindy did – that he was willing to speak up in spite of the great majority of comments on this blog being “anti” with respect to Hubbard and Scientology (not the church – everyone is anti about that). Some of them are much ruder and cruder than others, however.
Only in recent days have I noticed that more of the “pro-gang” are speaking up, and I think that’s because one or two did so, and then it started to look more like a blog for all viewpoints.
Hi Marilda, thanks for the boost.I’m out without any wounds and have a few friends who are still in and they say that they are having great wins in sessions and that they are happy. I think that the successes are largely due to the possibility of the auditors being more on their own and using the tech without micromanagement.OK by me if they have big wins.I will say this the big book of Objective processes is fun and powerful and I can do them at home. Too bad we didn’t know about them in the old days. I try to love my fellow men even if some are assholes.
Hi Ron. Well, there you go again – this time you had no back off on saying something good about the CoS, no less! That may be even more of a no-no to some people – which would make them just as fixed in their beliefs as they accuse “true believers” of being.
Actually, even though I can see the many gross outnesses going on in the church, I got into a heated discussion not too long ago with another poster on a different blog. I had stated that I didn’t necessarily doubt that the new objectives rundown (the SRD) wasn’t giving people the great wins I had heard about from still-in connections. The other poster had heard some bad reports about that rundown and apparently also saw some of bad results for himself, at an org near him. Nevertheless, I felt I shouldn’t just assume that the problem wasn’t the result of local out-tech going on in those instances.
Anyway, the point is that our criticism of the CoS should be done with just as much fairness and critical thinking as the critics of Scn and Hubbard assert should be done on those subjects. It’s conceivable that even Miscavige hasn’t been able to ruin every single thing in Scientology – and I wouldn’t doubt that there is some streak in him in which he wants to accomplish something good. This may be the case even though he is utterly psychotic in other areas.
Good for you for trying to love your fellow man “even if some are assholes.” That ability is described in “What is Greatness.” 🙂
No, Cindy, you don’t know where ill-intentioned invalidation and joking and degrading come from. You know where Hubbard told you where they come from. This is the type of brainwashing and indoctrination that John and I are against. “Think for yourself” does not mean that you have to validate every thought you have with an LRH quote.
“Thanks for having the courage to stand up and be counted in a place that has now become politically incorrect to do so. ”
You the same person who a couple of weeks ago said you didn’t “feel safe” posting here. (apparently because people can reach through the computer and hit you or something).
The underlying whining is just about trying to get Mike to silence people.
This may come as a shock to you but that tactic is transparent. Parents usually handle this in their children at around age 3 so that it isn’t carried into school and beyond.
Feel free to continue whining. All adults see it for what it is.
Ron. Thank you for your sincere, unashamed ARC. You show people here, just how and WHY to ‘keep it real’.
— racing. 🙂
Mike said, “The difference with those two is that they don’t complain about how everyone is against them — they just keep stating their position” Mike, thank you for your response. But when you say Espi and John Lock “just keep stating their position” that is only half true. The whole truth is that they engage in rude and hateful ad hominem where the person themselves are denigrated and attacked just for having an opinion that is not the same as theirs. It is spewing of toxic bile in some cases. I like the idea of free speech and pros and antis all getting their say. Just please try to do it without childish taunts, name calling, and ad homs. That was my point.
Also I noticed that many good commenters who used to make thoughtful and thought provoking comments, kind of like the voice of reason in some cases, are no longer posting. I have seen a huge change in the demographics of this blog since it first came out. That was what I meant by it is not the same blog as it used to be. I am not a “true believer” as JL and others have tried to pigeon-hole me as. By calling some a name and labeling them, you are just making it so that you don’t have to confront what the person is actually saying, as in the Stable Datum that Peter was talking about. Stable Data are put up so that one doesn’t have to inspect and look. Let’s stop labeling and fighting and engage in discourse without the ad hom.
I agree with you about the labeling and name calling and have commented about this a few times.
If I had more time to moderate I would be more vigilant on this and probably edit comments or note my thoughts about them. Unfortunately I dont. I often moderate from my phone. I basically have a choice of “approve” or “trash” and my tendency is to approve to keep the forum open even if I would prefer people not express things the way they do. ANd that happens on both sides — it’s not JUST the “anti’s” who engage in ad hom, the “pro’s” do too though theirs is usually more subtle, but I think in some ways worse “you are a failed case”, “I know what is wrong with you, LRH says you are a 1.1 carping critic” and various versions of name calling (SP, PTS, bypassed case, list errors, failed case, loaded with MU’s etc etc etc).
But I DO agree with you. Less name calling is better. It only serves to deepen the chasm that I accuse people of trying to shout across.
Cindy And Mike.
CINDY: I do believe you were referring to the posting I made, highlighting the value of the “Stable Datum”, (S/D) which seemed to elicit some acknowledgement, at least.
i really DO pick up your earnest appeal to Mike, to intervene on behalf of so many well intentioned folk who come here, ostensibly, for a healthy rap and to contribute’ meaningfully and intelligently, without finding their attention diverted in defending themselves trom the (now permitted) vicious and unrelenting hate speech, which triggers the not ALWAYS ‘subtle’ retaliation of the offended parties.
Make no mistake, Cindy, many of us do NOT require an ANON mask to handle these bully/cowards.
MIKE, I concede your points that you “prefer to keep the forum open…” and your obvious shortage of time to accomplish your busy schedule.
However, You have (unquestionably), been presented with a large number of ‘relatively’ polite requests to keep this site FREE of the more recent chapters of vitriolic hate speech, which understandably triggers and ferments unhelpful and unnecessary HE&R. And imho, unless acted upon (decisively!) EFFECTIVELY compromises your own (and perceived) impartiality.
In a nutshell, how then, does one ‘keep people coming back to buy a bag your otherwise ‘healthy’ tomatoes’, -when every new batch contains offensively rotten ones?
Summary: – No qual = less sales! HE&R is not part of the solution – but common sense should be.
“approve” or “trash”
–racing
Racing is goood for the spirit and usually forces the “GE” to go exterior. Sports cars, bikes, hot rods, planes, it’s all good.
Nothing in Scientology will “handle” yeasts. They need to be killed. I would credit your body’s immune system before I credit L. Fraud Flunk-Out’s textual diarrhea for your recovery. The Putrif doesn’t help anything besides opening your pores and making it easier to sweat.
“Never-in, geometry teacher / anon / and John Locke back/up” –your ACTUAL “assigned” purpose / activity for being here on THIS specific blog, would be ………..?
I’m here to find a woman who likes to cook and is compulsive about housekeeping. I’m prepared to offer praise and conversation (within limits).
Wot, no mate, mate? Spread the luuuuurv, Roger, my good man. It helps to accomplish this purpose, you’ll see! 🙂
Racing39 I’d like to invite you to dinner for some intellectual intercourse.
Stimulating idea brother, if it was practical! 🙂
Hi Roger Hornaday, After all the fireworks yesterday,I am here to offer you my Siamese cat Jade.Only Mon-Fri mind you and as for cooking she would like you to do for her, but housekeeping and praise and conversation from you makes her a meowing good choice! Love U Always,Ann.
LMAO at your funny response, Roger Hornaday. Personally, I’m here waiting for Godot.
My activity here is because I want to be here, Calvin, not because your hollow head believes that I’m OSA. And because I like countering Scientologist propaganda, like that spouted by you and your compatriots. What’s your reason for being here?
Espiando, I see that you did not pay attention or duplicate that I went elsewhere after the Purif to handle yeast (Candida) and if I have taken antibiotics I restore
myself with a well established supplemental routine that most anybody could find out about..
I don’t duplicate anything. I am a human being, not a photocopier. Please speak English to me, not Scilon.
Espiando, “duplicate” is a scientology word referring to Ron Hubbard’s misunderstanding of simple verbal communication. He considered that we understand what somebody says to us by duplicating it in our own mind. He didn’t look at the matter close enough to see that we NEVER duplicate what somebody is communicating we can only APPROXIMATE because words don’t carry full meaning. They represent things they don’t embody them. Calling it, “duplicating” is a failure to acknowledge this very important reality.
I seem to remember Kelly Preston with the exact same experience…… A sunburn pattern that came back…..hers was from a unique bathing suit that was a one piece, but had a hole in the middle (part of the design, not a holey bathing suit).
Well Done Mike…
Brilliant reasearch, Mike.
I took Advicor for eight years. It is a statin with super-charged niacin. It never
changed my LDL/HDL. It simply did not work and it was dangerous.
This is an excellent post which will no doubt make it’s way into the bubble somehow and potentially save a lives. Thank you Mike.
“At the very least, the doctors (mostly local scientologists) who rubber stamp the approvals for people to do the Purif should be made aware of this. Of course, if they protested or “stopped people moving up the Bridge” they would be declared and some other doctor would just be found to replace them.”
Yes, Mike, this is true– But just as the pool of active Scilons is finite, and the Whales are disappearing rapidly, how much more is the pool of educated (certainly not in Scilon ‘Academies’) Medical Doctors willing to put all learned knowledge and common sense aside at the risk of their careers in the name of LRH and CoB, vanishingly small. You can bet that useful idiot who took in Lisa McPherson had some sleepless nights (anyone know if he is still in? IF not, let’s get him talking!)
Listen, to be a Scientologist you don’t have to be stupid (but it certainly helps), but more and more you do have to be WILLFULLY IGNORANT. The medical code of ethics calls this negligent and a violation. Doctors are supposed to keep up on developments in science and medicine and to adapt in function.
There will come a point when anyone prescribing Niacin in massive doses will come under scrutiny from without.
Hopefully some are having doubts already (I know the moment LRH was considered a “master photographer and film maker”, as a professional film maker, I raised an eyebrow in WTF? Any intelligent professional in any single field LRH claimed to be an expert in knows he was full of shit about at least one subject.
When it comes to risking lives though, “Whassup ‘Doc’?”
Here is a link citing three doctors who advocate a Purif like detox program, and several studies are cited in the article, including detoxing Agent Orange from Vietnam Veterans.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/05/04/detoxification-program.aspx
My experience in doing and supervising Purifs since its inception is that the primary delivery failure was insufficient medical liaison before and during the program. This was better done in the early 80’s, but tended to get rubber-stamped in later years.
That said, with proper medical supervision I think the program is beneficial, and its basic functions have been validated external to the C of S.
Randy — see my answer just now to Theta Clear
Perhaps this blog posting will encourage just one person TO SUE, on the basis that this treatment with shit-tons of niacin has been exceptionally damaging. This is in America, after all, the land of the law suit.
Well, it’s Sunday again, 2:34am and marching
And I believe we will triumph.
I do believe we win.
It is the seven day anniversary of our landmark victory
and we will win again.
I steal no liberty, I rob no honour
To claim three Emmys, best
They belong to you and they belong to me.
I do believe, Alex and Lawrence next.
They thank us all
And congratulations too
Grateful for playing your part.
For playing your part
we win we do
and all for the love of heart.
I wrote this while sleep walking, I am possesed I suppose, blissfully.
But now I’ve got to return to my dream. Out 1D skit involving a certain friend, name starts with Ann.
Oh, racingintheblood39, I’m sorry, you have a cool name just escapes me… Anyway, I tackled your Q and posted it in Regrading Beings, don’t miss it. Might be the best I can do. Mark out. It starts, “I’m not so smart…”-mm
Power to the people, right on.
-John Lennon
[Mike, if you could post this in the Sunday rag, that would be cool. Otherwise, peace. Bedtime.]
The way I read it: what Hubbard said is that in his observations, niacin by itself does not turn on a flush. Medicine says that is caused by niacin. Hubbard says it is caused by radiation run-off. Observations are necessary to initiate logic, but observations are not themselves constructions of logic.
Proper use brings good results.
Improper use brings bad results.
If good results are desired, proper use will obtain those; if bad results are desired, improper use will obtain those.
I have seen some people develop faulty logic:
If good results are desired, proper use will obtain those; if bad results are desired, improper use will obtain those.
This applies to all things.
All things (especially Scientology) must obtain only good results, regardless of the way they are used, otherwise they are invalid.
(That’s nihilism, or suppression.)
Thanks Nick, good points and good examples of the construction and implementation of logic.
Einstein backs you up, you see him quoted on comparisons as I posted in Regraded Beings.
Mark – Thank you, I’ll look up your comments. “Formal Logic – A Philosophical Approach” by Paul Hoyningen-Huene. Other books on formal logic get a bit convoluted, but this guy keeps it straight and readable. There is much to be said for a bit of mental discipline – I’m definitely not an authority on it. I think Scns do not make use of their new-found potential. Also, Aristotle’s Nicomachen Ethics, by Joe Sachs. Aristotle gets translated from Ancient Greek to Latin, then to English, sometimes through German, so it becomes a bit tricky to read, probably also influenced by culture and ways of saying things (like, OK?) Personally, “Scientology 0-8: The Book of Basics” is my favorite. I wish he had included the admin scale in it, but that came along later I guess.
Scn 0-8 happens to be the only book I still (once every 10 years or so) enjoy making reference to, while sitting on the can, but even that much adherance to the philosophy I do keep to myself, or secret if you will. Nowadays, I recognize the trickery, using logic as the painting on the false front of a laundry store. LRH, as I say, died refusing to tell you the truth, refusing to reveal the true purpose of his laundry store, which was simply to aggrandize himself. I, too, found the book incomplete, as it is about scales and yet didn’t put in the expanded scale of human evaluation, a scale I always loved looking at, up on the wall in the mission in giant form.
I would gaze at that, just standing there, happily surrounded by Scientologists, thinking, my isn’t that brilliant?
Hubbard was full of it. He had no valid basis to conclude that Niacin in itself did not cause flushing, but was running out sunburn and radiation. I take 1,000 mg a day to help with my good cholesterol, but sometimes I do flush, and it burns and itches. No doubt the book “All about radiation” was mostly drivel.
As a person with a degree in Physics, Beryl, let me assure you that All About Radiation was entirely drivel, not just mostly drivel. The fact that this idiotic nonsense led to the Putrif is a big reason why the sweatbox and niacin set me off the way it does.
Although, of interest, I have taken Niacin and I like the sensation now. I always get a bigger “flush” after being in the sun recently. I am fair skinned and I can even get over sunburn in 1/2 the time if I get badly burnt. Tried and tested regularly.
Finally I have quite a white butt. I have not had any “flush” in that area except for 2-3 times when I intentionally sunbathed with my butt exposed to the sun. So there does “seem” to be some truth to the potential facts. Of course I would like to have the R&D series from that period released and available on USB stick. FYI, I am not in the CoS anymore and I agree with many things.
I understand that now it is spiritual and not health. However I would love to see lab results on 100s of people conducted by a lab. They could take tests and send them of to a cheap Colombian lab or something. It would be great to see the levels of certain toxins before the pgm, during, after and 4 weeks after completion.
The drug with the anti-flushing agent can mean that Niacin is actually not doing anything. If it is a niacin deficiency and this stops niacin then what is to blame. I have read some books on Niacin and I love it. But I know the claims of the purif our extreme and I would like to see the difference in actual levels of toxins between the purif and Dr George Yus partial knock off. Dr Yu has a 40 min infrared sauna, 20 min exercise and charcoal taken orally afterwards to help remove dislodged toxins. So that test would be beneficial.
Anyway this story makes me think but I still see value in the purif. But I agree some independent testing with test results being available to see would be great.
Niacin dosing is spiritual in the same way that midi-chlorians are connected the The Force in the Star Wars prequels — totally insane rubbish by a moronic lunatic crap writer (Hubbard in one case, Lucas in the other).
Mike, a coment on something else from your quote from chapter four of HOM.
Almost all Scientologists use the term “GE” incorrectly. I never had any reality or understanding of it and when I got on the BC, I was determined to finally understand the term. (note: I no longer have any references at hand, so anyone who wants to, will just have to verify what I say here themselves)
LRH defined the Genetic Entity as another being that resided in the body. (This is apart from the thetan, the “I” that is in the body in the area of the head) The GE was supposedly a degraded being that resided somewhere in the area of the stomach and regulated all automatic physical actions and processes, such as breathing, digestion, etc. This made no sense to me, someone who always just bought into the thetan-mind-body model (which WAS real to me) So I got a hold of every single LRH reference I could find to clear this up in date order (you can tell that the BC chief really loved the way I studied! Ha ha). And … suddenly read one or two lines in a PAB or something where LRH says that it (the GE) wasn’t important ….. and I never saw him mention it again.
So while I always acknowledge that LRH nailed some MAJOR great truths that I still have realizations on, he also spoke about certain phenomena as FACTS and truth, which he later either found out weren’t or just decided they weren’t (yet never “took it back” or corrected the previous untruth).
Actually, his atitude in the hco b on the purif is unusual for him as he uses “seems to” a number of times. (yet still concludes they are absolute truths).
Joe – I tried some window herb-garden seeds. You have a genetic code there, which somehow grows from a tiny seed into a plant, but what moves that genetic code? For that matter, you have single cells by the trillions in a body (e.g. human, cat, etc.) Each cell has some ability to take care of itself in some sense. You watch bacteria under a microscope, and they move and multiply. I have no idea whether I’m right or wrong about this, but it seems to me there must be some life force there, and I’m not sure I see the difference in impetus between that and a thetan. Some life is pro-survival, some life has become so twisted as to be anti-survival, but Hubbard got it right in DMSMH, about the dynamic principle of existence.
Hello Nickname,
I would like to introduce you to a book that you might find very interesting and along the lines of your discussion and thoughts: The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks.
The story delves into medical ethics but what is very interesting is a story about ‘immortal cells’ that continue to reproduce endlessly after 60 years after being removed from a cadaver. These cells (HeLa) went on to be used for major medical breakthroughs that we enjoy the benefits of today and their discovery is tantamount to the personal computer in the medical world.
Pepper – Noted, thank you.
Nickname: “You have a genetic code there, which somehow grows from a tiny seed into a plant, but what moves that genetic code? For that matter, you have single cells by the trillions in a body (e.g. human, cat, etc.) Each cell has some ability to take care of itself in some sense.”
Good question, Nickname. I think the answer is “morphic fields”, described in a 3-minute video linked below. To give you the basic idea, here’s an excerpt from the short article just below the video:
——————————–
According to [Rupert] Sheldrake [biologist and author], the “morphic field” underlies the formation and behaviour of “holons” and “morphic units” [including atoms, molecules, cells, organs, organisms, and others], and can be set up by the repetition of similar acts or thoughts. The hypothesis is that a particular form belonging to a certain group, which has already established its (collective) “morphic field”, will tune into that “morphic field”. The particular form will read the collective information through the process of “morphic resonance”, using it to guide its own development. This development of the particular form will then provide, again through “morphic resonance”, a feedback to the “morphic field” of that group, thus strengthening it with its own experience, resulting in new information being added (i.e. stored in the database). Sheldrake regards the “morphic fields” as a universal database for both organic (living) and abstract (mental) forms.
———————————-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BYR32N04sE
That was a great post, I feel smarter already.I notice that this blog is starting to bloom positive.
With you being one of the causative forces. 🙂
Great post Mike. All the work you did to write it is much appreciated.
One additional factor that should be mentioned here is that MANY people who come into Narconon are in extremely bad shape physically, their bodies having been ravaged by many years of hard drugs, alcohol and malnutrition. So they are even MORE at risk than most Scientologists when they are subjected to the niacin and the long hours in the sauna.
My experience as a CS for the purif was that we had sort of “assembly line doctors” that we used to give people their ok to be on the program. I myself went to one before my first purif. He asked me a couple of questions, said I looked healthy and signed my form.
An excellent essay Mike.
Niacin continues to come under increased scrutiny within molecular and cellular biology research communities. A 2015 paper “Niacin-induced hyperglycemia is partially mediated via niacin receptor GPR109a in pancreatic islets.” discusses the mechanisms whereby niacin can induce hyperglycemia: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25622782
A quote from this paper: ” Our data indicate that niacin-induced pancreatic islet dysfunction is probably modulated through activation of the islet beta-cell GPR109a-induced ROS-PPARγ-UCP2 pathways. ”
Because the Church of Scientology has no scientific review committee, it continues to promote Hubbard’s claim that niacin can “break up” drugs stored in the body.
Sorry to be blunt, but Hubbard’s writings make it abundantly clear that the man did not even remotely understand the basics of physics, biology, and chemistry.
Of all people, Bob Duggan has to know this. The clinical work Pharmacyclics performed under Duggan’s leadership was outstanding. I have read many of the papers and patents.
How could Duggan become a billionaire due to he and his company’s expertise in “Waldenström’s macroglobulinemia” while he simultaneously believes that medically unsafe megadoses of niacin knock BT’s out of chronic restimulation? I don’t know how Duggan puts these two unlike things together in his head except as a matter of faith — or perhaps he simply compartmentalizes and knows not to ask hard questions of Scientology and Hubbard if he is to remain in good standing with the Church.
Of course, Bob Duggan could easily be appointed and funded by the IAS or the Church to conduct a world-class scientific test of the Purif — however this will never happen. It will not happen because A) the Church will not do it, and B) Duggan is inherently biased towards Scientology and therefore he cannot not be relied upon to produce unbiased work. Asking Bob Duggan to test the Purif claims would be like asking Mitt Romney to test Mormon archaeological claims in North America.
I did a recent piece on Narconon over at Ortega’s blog: http://tonyortega.org/2015/09/02/why-scientology-can-never-submit-its-drug-rehab-quackery-to-scientific-review/
I am working on a second article on Narconon and Scientology. In this second piece, I will argue why the FDA needs to investigate Narconon’s medical claims and force it to disclose several things it is not disclosing.
Thanks Jeff. Interesting on the hyperglycemia study.
The truth is that much of what is presented as “researched” and “scientific fact” in the body of scientology is not. And that does not really matter. Any more than Mormons and their history matter. Or fundamentalist christians. That is what FAITH is all about. There is no proof. In fact, there may be evidence to the contrary, but that does not change the faith.
The difference with this is that this program directs people to take massive doses of niacin. And that appears to be physically harmful.
People have right to believe in things that are harmful to them. Christian Scientists will die rather than getting a blood transfusion. But they KNOW this is the outcome. People are NOT forewarned of the potential outcome of taking massive doses of niacin, in fact, they are told that it is absolutely the only way they will achieve “purification.” In my mind, that is when it becomes a problem and action must be taken.
And this is not one of those things that believers dismiss with a laugh like “lung cancer is caused by not smoking enough cigarettes” — they defend the Purif as “valid science” even down to “well, if science says it’s potentially harmful, that’s good enough for me to take it as a recommendation.”
Fundamentalism at its finest.
You are exactly correct Mike.
However, the Purif it can cause physical harm and therefore crosses the line into FDA territory.
To borrow a phrase, something can be done about it. Just as the FDA forced the Church label its e-meter, I propose a major goal of making the FDA require
CSI-sublicensee Narconon disclose everything to potential clients:
1. None of Narconon’s claims for megadoses of niacin have been evaluated by the FDA.
2. Megadoses of niacin can pose serious health risks — a full disclosure needs to be given.
3. Narconon is a sub-licensee of the Church of Scientology International.
4. The Narconon Purif is the secular version of the identical program conducted in the Church of Scientology. Therefore, the same theory of BT’s applies to both the Church and Narconon Purifs.
5. The Purification Rundown is metaphysical in nature. The Church of Scientology has never funded an independent third party scientific study of claims made for either Narconon or the Purif.
6. According to the Church of Scientology the Purif, in and of itself, does not address the underlying mental image pictures cited by Hubbard. These mental image pictures can only be handled spiritually within the Church of Scientology.
7. Due to item 6 above, the Purification Rundown component of Narconon cannot handle mental image pictures. Therefore, in addition to Narconon being devoid of any demonstrated scientific basis, it is also an incomplete metaphysical program. To get the full treatment from a Scientology perspective, one must complete the OT IV Drug Rundown.
8. Good luck.
Nice jobs, Mike and Jeff!
One small addendum to your Number 4, Jeff:
The identical program costs roghluy100x less (A statistic pulled from the same orifice as all of Hubbard’s un-stolen research, but doubtless more accurate, and subject to correction by anyone with the will,the time, Google and a Calculator).
And one more: No Drug or Alcohol Dependency Program has ever achieved anywhere near the 70%-90% success rate claimed routinely by Narconon/Scientology (and the figure has been admitted to be a lie by the ex-head of a Narconon flagship program)
It is only natural to have *WINS* when daily discipline is put in for half hour of good work out…running, vitamins, sweating out. Sweat is the body ejecting toxins.
This does not mean 5000 a day niacin is “technology”.
One of the most horror stories of all is the Amy Scobee story. Amy, an Int base executive, was “forced” to be on the Purif for over 5 months, on 5000 Niacin.
Note: this was ordered as a punishment. Just like running around a pole 12 hours a day, now $2500 in the Super power building, but in my day outright torture punishment.
Amy endured a brutal Purification Rundown.
It is the *enforcement* of these mega doses that appears to be physically harmful.
Thanks Mike Rinder for this important essay.
Karen, this is the most startling news in my opinion ever reported by anyone regarding the Church of Scientology’s Purification Rundown. As far as Amy Scobee is concerned NO WONDER SHE LEFT! 🙂 For goodness sakes Karen. A regimen like that could kill a person. Using Dianetics and Scientology splinter technology to kill people with. Well, that sure sounds like the kind of church I would want to belong to right away! And you know that’s a lie! 🙂
Holy Jesus, 5 months on the Purif, with Purif as a punishment…I thought I was shockproof. Using the tech to punish someone. I just don’t get it. I can’t get my mind around it, that this could even be possible.
Mike from your article LRH said in History of Man “It is so named not because it is accurately the real Piltdown Man but because it has some similarity. “
From http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3226936/Our-common-ancestors-looked-like-APES-Researchers-reveal-shoulders-shed-new-light-human-evolution.html
“ Man’s last common ancestor with apes looked more ape than human, researchers have found.
‘We have features that clearly link us with African apes, but we also have features that appear more primitive, leading to uncertainty about what our common ancestor looked like”
Mike, Scientists have not got the full map of the bodys development so how can you just dismiss what LRH says. He says the creature he describes is not accurately the real Piltdown Man as the creature then thought to be real. Why even bring this up?
Rinder: “There are no specifics here, just generalized statements and reference to people who had been “subjected to atomic tests”(really?), “atomic accidents”(?) and one person who had been “subjected to” materials that had been part of an old atomic explosion”
You seem to find issue with the fact that there were people around during atomic tests. I dont get this other than just an attempt to find fault. Look at any documentary on testing and you will find plenty of people, some in foxholes, very close to the explosion, who can then be seen walking to the explosion, after the detonation. I personally met an Islander who worked for the Americans during testing in the Pacific, a whole atoll disappeared, I guess you could call that an accident, when it is not expected! What is your problem with this.
LRH :”Niacin, then, apparently seems to have a catalytic effect on running out radiation exposure. It seems to give it a kick and run it through. It will often cause a very hot flush and prickly, itchy skin, which can last up to an hour or longer. “
Well it did it for me. The flush was the exact same feeling as having sunburn, I had a marijuana light trip turn on and saw other people go thru drug incidents, it was commonplace, and the feeling at the end was the exact EP as stated by LRH. I am not a chemist, but I am pretty good at reading my body, what is good for it and what is not. And too much of anything will kill you, why should niacin be any different. But you are attempting to label a compound, Tredaptive, as niacin.
You seem to put a lot of importance on this study. But science has a way of changing and contradicting itself all the time. ie. Salt is good for you, then its bad. Sugar is ok, but now its really bad. Climate warming now climate change, particles that go faster than the speed of light, on and on.
There have been several articles from the critics such as yourself, trying to degrade the purif, is this some sort of coordinated effort to discredit it?
I know you will classify me as a sad, true believer, or “silly”, a nice little “label”. I dont care,I didnt fall for Daves changes, and I dont with the purif recycles and overruns either. If it didnt indicate to me, I didnt do it. What I did worked, it is as simple as that. The true believers or fanatics, or silly ones, are the ones who stayed and worked for Dave, did his bidding knowing it was wrong, but did it anyway and the people who went back for more abuse, day in, day out. They seem to be the same people who now blame LRH for all their problems. That is what is really sad, people who gave their abusers the whip and just stood there. They just didnt really understand what they had in front of them and how to make it work and the fact that they also had to think!!!!
Well, I am not going to spend a lot of time responding as these sort of debates are quite pointless.
I will try to explain this to you in simpler terms.
a. Piltdown Man: There was never any such thing. It was a completely fabricated story. So, how did “whole track research” come up with something that was completely made up as a hoax? It did NOT exist. Hubbard says this is not “accurately the real Piltdown Man” because he thought there WAS a REAL Piltdown Man. If it was a hoax, then it could NOT have come from “research of past lives” and “study of case histories.” Do you understand the illogic here? And you are really trying to “prove” now that such a thing existed in some form. You totally missed the point. And perhaps I didnt make it clear enough.
b. You seem to find issue with the fact that there were people around during atomic tests. Not at all. I find issue with the generalities. This is supposedly an explanation to justify why niacin is used and how it is proven to be valuable for “running out radiation”. But there is not a single specific about anything? Remember the old datum, generalities won’t do?
c. The flush was the exact same feeling as having sunburn — I guarantee you if you are willing to look, you will find an excellent explanation of this under the subject of vasodilation and why vasodilation would occur in the area of a sunburn. But I am happy you had wins on the Purif, I went to pains to explain that I think the whole thing is generally beneficial.
d. There have been several articles from the critics such as yourself, trying to degrade the purif, is this some sort of coordinated effort to discredit it? Come now. A conspiracy theory? I dont recall ANYONE ever anywhere looking into the study of niacin. Can you point me in the direction of that “effort to degrade the purif” as I WOULD like to compare notes about niacin. Which is the ENTIRE SUBJECT of this post.
Not to make you wrong or anything , dear Mike, but Penny brought a valid point. “Scientific” studies contradicting themselves happens all the time. one thing is goog for your health, then it is not after another “study” , then it is again after another “study” , and so on. A recent example is with the sweetener “Splenda” and others “Sucralosa” based sweeteners. Now it is allegedly harmful for our health but it had been FDA approved sijce 1998! a whole 17 years ago!!!
I have personally taken Sucralosa based sweeteners for the last 12-15 with no adverse effects whatsoever. I don’t even get sick.
So who is to tell that these recents studies about niacin is not more of the same, and wrong diagnosis as is common is the medical world.
To be honest, w/out reviewing those studies IN DETAIL, information including the chemistry of it all no unbiased opinion can possible exist, and you know quite well what is my opinion of LRH the “scientist”.
Let’s just say only for the sake of discussion that niacin does has the effect of dissolving fat-soluble toxins from the fat tissue. Let’s just assume that for a moment. Let’s us also assume than once dissolved, they come out by profusely sweating inside a sauna. I can’t honestly say that a connection between drug residuals running in the blood stream and past mental pictures connected with them , doesn’t cause a restimulation which can include all kinds of symptoms which I personally witnessed when I was supervising the program several years ago. And ALL such symptoms vanished during the same day that they turned on.
The point I am trying to make, is that if those assumptions above were actually true (which I am not asserting they are) , then many symptoms experienced by niacin consumers while not in a sauna and a supervised program could be explained as not totally flatten restimulations from past drugs.
I am basing this comment on my experience as a Purif I/F and C/S where of hundreds of supervised cases, none under my care had any ill and adverse effects, and each one of them ended their purif healthier than before the program.
Again, I am not trying to “Dead Agent” your post in any way. I am only presenting another possible aspect of it to evaluate. It is my scientific opinion that the program itself, not the consumption of isolated niacin, is the thing to really test.
My humble opinion, anyway.
Besr regards,
Peter
Sorry for my grammar horrors ; I wrote the above in a hurry on my Android phone.
Right — well, that is why I included the links to the study. You can read the whole thing for yourself in the NE Journal of Medicine if you desire. But a TRIAL to get approval for a drug is very different than a long term, large study.
26,000 people over 3 years is a pretty decent sized study. Those figures don’t lie.
And there was nobody’s vested interest that influenced the outcome obviously — they shut down a billion dollar drug.
I got you, Mike, and I think that you are very true to the data you have at hand.
That being said, I was a Purif I/C and C/S for severao years and handled hundreds of cases. So I have accumulated a lot of empirical data and direct observation. This isn’t just something I read about.
There are a few holes in your post and angles that are not being looked at. In the first place this isn’t the first time that we have “studies” alleging something after they had previously alleged something entirely different , like the “Splenda” example that I brought up previously. This happens more frequently than you may think ; one “study” allegedly “proving” something which frequently is just fixed ideas from alleged “unbiased” researchers. This is something well know in the field of chemistry and biochemistry. If you wish I can find a dozens of books for you to download on that subject from world known medical researchers.
The industry of vits and medical drugs is full of “vested interests”. One drug is approved after an alleged “complete clinical test” , only to find out later that its sides effects are 10x worse than the symptoms it intended to alleviate.
You are assigning a special value to the FDA that it clearly doesn’t have. I mean, just look at the side effects (officially listed at the PDR) of many psychotropic drugs which include suicidal and homocidal tendencies (even though they mask them as something else) . Tjese are facts that even quite a few phychiatrists alert about and even testify in court against. I have all the links if you wish me to send them to you.
Yoi are clearly assigning the FDA and ethics that it clearly has demonstrated over the decades that it lack.
As you pointed out, the study you quoted is about large doses of niacin over long periods of time, something not applicable in the case of the Purif RD. The purif is commonly finished in 3 weeks and only in the last week or sodoes the dosages are beyond the 3,000 mg range. Niacin is started at 100mg and increased by 100mg until the 1,00mg range is achieved. Then it is increased in intervals of 250-500mg.
This idea that one needs to reach the 5,000 dosage range w/out reactions in order to “EP” the program is for the birds ; no LRH. A person is done when he is done which can happen at ANY range. In all my years supervising the program, only less than 50% reached the 5,000mg range.
The program is designed based on the claim (which I am neither comfirming it is true , nor that it is false) that niacin has the property of dissolving fat-soluble toxins locked into the fatty tissue. The running before the program allegedly gets the circulation going so that the niacin can reach deeper into those tissues. Then profusely sweating in the sauna get the toxins out of the body. While that happens (and as the toxins are now circulating the blood stream) , mental pictures of past events related to the consumption of drugs gets keyed-in. The person can feel the same symptoms he felt whilw he was under the effect of those drugs. I was a witness to that EVERY DAY of the program, as well of being a witness of how by continuing sweating in the sauna, those reaction that turned on, eventually turned off at the end of the period of that day. I witness that for years in hundreds of cases.
Taking that theory as true, for discussion purposes, then one can assume that niacin taken w/out the other parts of the program being in, then reaction that doesn’t get flatten out can occur which can explain odd and weird symptoms occurring as the result of niacin intake. Those reactions can then be confused with “side effects”.
Another point to consider also, is the fact that in the program niacin is balanced with other vits of the B complex as well as others, to prevent artificial deficiencies from being unwittingly created giving the false impresion that something is not working properly.
In the study you quote there is not any evidence that those test subjects were balancing in any way the intake of niacin with others. It is a very well known fact in the field of biochemistry that artificial deficiencies can be created by the intake of certain vits w/out balancing them out with others. Any good biochemistry book and medical text on nutrition , cover that aspect.
So I feel we are not being fair here in this analysis. A lot of vital data is being left out. To be fair and unbiased, the program needs to be study as a whole with all its parts in, not just isolated instances of niacin intake w/out no other parts of the program being used.
That’s my professional opinion about it. I was there for years, making observations and accumulation of empirical data. So I will need a lot more than just “studies” which are very frequently found to draw conclusions based on outpoints. That has been my experience with research, and believe me, I have a LOT experience researching things. I fully support science that being my life passion. But I am a researcher of the history of science, and I have seen how many “facts” were mere fixed ideas from alleged “impartial” scientists.
Let’s test the program under a fair set of variables, run correctly per policy, and then I’ll pay more attention to the results of the unbiased tests. Otherwise , it doesn’t sound right.
My ¢2 cents.
Best regards,
Peter
I agree with you. I wish someone WOULD do a real study of the program. They had the opportunity, took 700k from the Dept of Defense but “didnt have enough money” to include blood tests and didnt set up the trial with a placebo comparitor.
Look, I am warning people. Based on a study of 26,000 people over 3 years. It is not an FDA study. The drug was WITHDRAWN FROM ALL MARKETS AROUND THE WORLD BY MERCK. Not by the FDA.
I noted there are differences between the study and the uses of niacin on the Purif.
All the anecdotal evidence (that is a scientigic term) you or others have is not EVIDENCE. By definition.
You can go on giving people niacin. I simply wanted people to KNOW the information that is out there.
ANd the INSTANT reaction to anyone who does USE THE PURIF is to dismiss this as “quackery” and “entheta” and “not based on any evidence” which is why I went to such pains to try and explain the logical train of thought on this, including the example of the Piltdown Man to show that false ideas were adopted by Hubbard and presented as “research” because that is an easily proven example.
You and anyone else are free to go on doing whatever it is that you do.
But perhaps you have read some of the anecdotal evidnece from posters here that they suffered real and serious harm as a result of the Purif. Do you just choose to ignore those? Or write them off as “out tech must have been employed”?
” Anecdotal Evidence The term ‘anecdotal evidence’ can be broken up intotwo distinct halves, both of which are words you are more than likely familiar with. Evidence isproof, in some form or another, offered to defenda belief or a claim. Anecdotes are short stories told to illustrate a point or support a claim. In many cases, anecdotes are presented as being true, representing realpeople and events. Today’s topic, anecdotal evidence, can be defined as testimony that something is true, false, related, or unrelated based on isolated examples of someone’spersonalexperience. Anecdotal evidence is very popular in the advertising world. Every time you see a claim about a product’s effectiveness based on a person’s personalexperience, the company is using anecdotalevidence to encourage sales. There is a bigand distinct difference between anecdotal evidence and scientific evidence, or proof based on findings from systematic observation, measurement, and experimentation. While scientific evidence can be independently verified using the scientific method, anecdotalevidence cannot. Anecdotalevidence isoften offered when there is an absence of scientific evidence or in an effort to refute scientific evidence.”
Dear Mike, I wouldn’t classify thousands of hours of DIRECT observations over a period of several years as “anecdotal evidence”. I personally supervised humdreds of cases where I had to keep very accurate records of reactions, physical changes, etc, etc. This wasn’t just about some “hype wins” from the participants, which I repeat again, most of them were not even Scientologists yet. Many never became.
Based on your criteria then ALL clinical psychological and psychiatric studies are not to even be taken seriously as ALL of them are based on “anecdotal evidence” , aren’t they ?
Tjere is a BIG different between taking a few isolated cases over a period of months, as the alleged “tests” about weight products efficacy do, and recording IN DETAIL over a period of years!!! the reactions and physical manifestations of hundreds or even thousands of particiapants .I feel you are brushing this off rather too easily.
And of course I don’t choose to ignore the bad experiences from others doing the program. But honestly Mike, how many cases like that have been documented ? Out of only a few isolated Narconon cases, which we don’t even know their previous medical condition before the program, many are drawing incredible conclusions about the alleged harmfulness of the program.
Has an independent and responsible investigation have been done on those cases to determine what really happened ? Did all the steps of the program were followed as exactly written ? Was the participant fully medically checked up before the program to determine any conditions that would indicate a special handling on the program, or even the advice against doing it at all ? Do you or any other person have the answers to such questions ?
I am not trying to defend LRH’s “scientific” approach to research, Mike ; I think, like you, that he lacked
that a lot. But many angles are being left out of the equation here, which makes me feel uneasy about your post. I seldom feel uneasy about any of them, but this time I do.
I know that you care about the safety of others, what makes you think that I don’t. ? But I feel that conclusions were drawn just too fast on too little data, and even data of no comparable magnitude as isolated intakes of niacin, w/out sauna sweating, and w/out properly balancing all other vits to avoid artificial deficiencies with its resulting effect on general health , can’t possible be construed as the Purif program.
As I say before , ONLY testing the program as itself with all its parts in, can shed real evidence in this dilemma. And there is no reason why independent Scientologists can’t do it, with the help of others trained in medicine, and other health related professionals. We don’t need the ok of the CofS to do that. What are we waiting for ?
It is my opinion that one of the flaws of the program is the lack of a real competent and full medical check-up before starting the program. The “check-ups” usually done are by Scientologists themselves who are also M.Ds, and who are just kool-aid drinkers under the spell of authority. That’s. where the program breaks done, besides that it ought to be supervised, in my opinion, only by M.Ds or at least by register professional nurses.
Anyway, I am trying to make you wrong, or to accuse you of anything. I am quite aware of your qualities. But I feel you jumped too fast. My humble opinion.
Best regards,
Peter
You didnt look up the term “anecdotal evidence” obviously.
And yes, thousands of hours of direct “observations” can be just as anecdotal as ONE story (“a guy who had an LSD flashback on 100mg of niacin).
Please, stop talking (typing) and actually understand the term.
It’s pointless going back and forth unless you actually understand what I said as you are arguing against something I didnt say.
” You didn’t look up the term “anecdotal evidence” obviously.
And yes, thousands of hours of direct “observations” can be just as anecdotal as ONE story (“a guy who had an LSD flashback on 100mg of niacin).
Please, stop talking (typing) and actually understand the term.
It’s pointless going back and forth unless you actually understand what I said as you are arguing against something I didn’t say.”
Dear Mike, with all due respect, your assumption that I didn’t look up the term and that I didn’t actually “get it” is rather presumptuous on your part.
I am providing you with these quotes to illustrate my point to you, AGAIN.
” Anecdotal Evidence When generalizing, the fallacy of drawing on limited personal experience or a vivid example as the basis of the generalization. The arguer places too much trust in the example or personal experience even though it is not really representative. Because the sample size will be inadequate and because the sample itself will be chosen to confirm the intended conclusion, anecdotal evidence makes generalizing unsound. ”
http://web.mnstate.edu/gracyk/courses/phil%20110/110definitions.htm
Mike, “anecdotal evidence” refers to “evidence” based mostly on the account of the experiences of others. Success stories ARE that kind of evidence. The wins that others communicate they had with a certain procedure, is another example. The term mostly refer to examples where a small representative sample is being used as with the “tests” of the alleged validity of a weight loss system or product.”Anecdotal” , as it is mainly based on the direct statements of the participants as regards of what they felt, etc.
Relying only on the communicated wins of the participants of the Purif RD is “anecdotal evidence”. But, but making direct observations of their reactions, noting them down, observing how those reactions increase or diminish and how they flatten out in the end. Those things, dear Mike , ARE part of the Scientific Method, and is used intensively in psychology. It doesn’t necessarily rely on physical measurements , but on totally controlled variables and direct observations. No disrespect meant, but I feel that it is YOU that needs to clear up your data on that.
One can use the Scientific Method on any area on knowledge such as mental health and behavior, which doesn’t rely on physical measurements as such, but on OBSERVATIONS and accumulation of data, such as I did when I supervised the program. Writing down the wins of the participant was only ONE aspect of it all , and yet you are only evaluating that aspect. That’s quite convenient from my perspective. You are making this more complex than it actually is , and going over the tangent of it all.
“Anecdotal evidence” frequently refers to a small representative sample, usually chosen before hand in such a way to help someone claim some benefit for their own agendas.It also happens when studying supernatural stuff like UFOs , after-death experiences , communication with spirits , etc ,etc.
The observations and record keeping that I did on the program were duplicated and replicated by hundreds of others I/Cs and C/Ses around the world with different cultures and people of all ages. That is a way of making observations, gathering data, forming theories, testing predictions, and interpreting results ; in other words the USE of scientific methodology. I don’t think that many here can really teach me about scientific methodology.
And now you come here and rely on one single medical “study” of a niacin intake, w/out any backing up with other vits, w/out the element of profuse sweating, w/out daily supervision, and based on niacin consumption over long periods of time. The purif usually last only 3 weeks.
I am sorry but I am not convinced at all. I am well known for criticizing LRH at many things. But if LRH was wrong at a thousand of things and was right at one ( I actually think he was right about hundreds of stuff), I will defend that one aspect as part of being intellectually honest. And I haven’t seen ANY evidence at all as to the purif representing any danger for someone whose health is basically ok, w/out possessing any special medical condition to watch for. I was there for years non-stop and never ever had any problem with anybody, and so didn’t many I/Cs friends of mine. And THAT , isn’t “anecdotal” at all.
So I stand for everything I have said on this subject, and it your decision whether to debate me or not , to keep discussing this subject or not with me. Bring me a study where the ACTUAL program had been tested with the correct set of variables, with all its points in, and then we’ll talk.
Best regards,
Peter
This is not about MENTAL HEALTH or pyschology, as I made clear in my original post. It is about PHYSICAL health. Noting that niacin “flattens out at the end” is not evidence of anything. Go back and look at the 1950’s studies — it’s been known since the first use of niacin that gradiently increasing the dose reduces flushing. So what?
I am trying to lead some horses to water — a real study, released last year, on 26,000 people over 3 years that shows there is harm — but when you are convinced the water is poisonous or you don’t need to drink to remain alive it’s a disheartening exercise.
I have stopped caring about whether anyone understands or believes this.
I put it out there — ignore it if you wish (and at your peril)
I’ll be my own authority at anything , dear Mike , thank you very much.
:-)))
Peter
Mike, I wouldn’t ignore anecdotal evidence from posters here that they suffered real and serious harm as a result of the Purif. I would pay due attention, but I would find out what pre-existing body conditions, if any, these people had, and I would find out if their Purif had been admininistered standardly, meaning, no outgradients with the sauna and with the niacin dosage and the length of the Purif itself. I would find out if they were hardcore drug addicts or alcoholics. There are a number of factors to consider before making an accurate eval as to the risks and potential harm versus the benefits in doing the Purif. If people are getting sick because of it or dying on it, we can safely conclude that the Purif OBVIOUSLY isn’t for everyone. In short, to do a proper eval, on the risks and benefits, lots more key data is necessary. Which I suppose is your point 🙂
The problem here is the basis supposition that a standard Purif is safe and the only reason it is not is that it is “non-standard.”
Isn’t it possible that based on NEW information, the use of large doses of niacin is JUST NOT SAFE?
And that it doesnt matter whether it is “administered correctly” or not? Because there is no correct way of administering large doses of niacin and be certain it is safe?
If this is even a remote possibility, then people should take notice of that fact instead of trying to dismiss the warning.
Tc, what was your hypothesis for this research? What were your variables, controlled and otherwise? How did you analyse the results and what was your margin of error? Thanks in advance.
What research are you talking about, dear Mwesten ?
I haven’t seen you in a while ; state your purpose for your question, and then I might work on writing a detailed answer. Was you brought here as a worthy “opponent” ?
ARC,
Peter
Tc, I am not anyone’s opponent nor am I on any “side”. My purpose is, quite frankly, understanding. Disagreement is great because it allows me to learn alternate viewpoints and, more importantly, the chance to understsnd why people have them.
I asked for further details because I was curious as to how closely you adhered to the scientific process and what, ultimately, you were testing. What was your hypothesis?
That is all.
There has been a lot of heat on this particular blog post and more than a few people need their bottom smacked for forgetting their manners (including me). The one thing I take from Hubbard above anything else (despite the fact he rarely applied it) is that we should learn to love eachother in spite of all. The real trap is not having love and compassion for one’s fellow man – even those we despise. When I can do that religiously (excuse the pun) I know I’ll have made it out. 🙂
Hi mwesten, I thought your post was so thoughtful and good.I echo what you wrote about love and listening to another even if I do not not agree.It is hard and I have flunked that listening bit myself.I guess for me it boils down to trying to treat people the way I would want to be treated.That concept can cross a lot of different cultures and religions too.If the other person plain refuses to listen and yells at me,when I do not deserve it,then I will walk away without yelling back.Believe me with all I have been through,life,,Sea Org etc I am far far from perfect!Always, Ann.
Fair enough , dear Mwesten ; I’ll play along. I share your same exact views on that , but this being a complete jungle , one can’t never be careful enough.
Well, in the first place It was never an hypothesis of mine but LRH’s. So I put it to the test with the tools available at the time ; direction observation, recopilation of data, analysis of such data, and conclusions drawn from it. Of course, physical tests were not a part of this as I was a mere I/C. Back then , I had been an engineering student before I dropped it to “Save the Planet”. I was a standard skeptical student of science back then , so I still wasn’t under the cult(ish) influence of Scn. That happened years after. I would question anything and everybody , and wanted to test it all.
The hypothesis was that fat-soluble toxins gets locked into the fatty tissue even years after the person had taken the drugs (medicine, street drugs, etc) that resulted in those residual toxins. That the vit called niacin had the property to dissolve such toxic residuals from the fatty tissue, and that through long periods (not continuous) of profuse sweating, those toxins could be eliminated from the body. It was part of the hypothesis (based on the mechanism of A=A=A of the Reactive mind ; something I was still testing as a Bk-1 auditor)) , that once those residuals were running again in the blood stream, they could turn on again (due to the mechanism of restimulation) past experiences (misemotion, physical discomfort, pains, mental phenomena, etc) like the ones that the participant experienced when he took such drugs. As those residuals were flushed out of the system through sweating , those reactions were supposed to diminish until they were gone.
Now, as part of these tests, people of all age brackets , and with different records of drug consumption , participated in the program. They were not allowed to engage in any other type of physical of therapy , and their diets stayed the same with the exception of intake of vegetables, and the intake of dosages of vits. So the variables were more or less fixed for the participants , meaning all of them had the same elements applied to them under the same set of rules, and no other therapies were being used by them.
No other test groups (the control group) was ever tested for obvious reasons ; I was an I/C working for the Org, not a hired independent researcher. A control group would have been those put on the same program but w/out the element of the niacin , so that its role on the program could be really tested. Also another control group that could have been used was one where the element of the niacin and the vits were left out of the program , but not the sauna part. And even another control group would be people put on niacin (with the other vits to avoid creating artificial deficiencies) , but w/out the running and sauna part. That way only one variable could be tested at a time.But as I said, I was only an I/C. Those control groups would have shed more light into this. But this wasn’t a professional research as such , but only a personal curiosity I wanted to verify.
Then came the part of observation, record keeping, and compilation of data. With varying degrees, each participant went through physical and/or mental reactions that they identified as similar (though less in intensity) to experiences of past drug consumption. I never evaluated for any of them or suggested them anything. I merely interviewed them to get data from them. The reactions ranged from feelings of being drunk again, or in a drug trip, a general feeling of being sick, physical reactions similar to the symptoms the had when they took certain medical drug to alleviate them, a sensation like a strong sunburn with a past bath-suit pattern showing up, dizziness, etc, etc.. In a lot of occasions a red mark exactly where the participant alleged that he had received an x-ray exposure , clearly showed in his body.
What was peculiar is that most of the participants were able to identify (on their OWN origination) their reactions as being ones they had felt when under the effect of a certain drug, or as part of the symptoms they felt that prompted them to take those drugs in the first place ; and many of them could even remember the exact name of the drug in question (specially medical drugs) , as I myself was able to do back then. Like 96% of the participants (in my first year supervising the program) were not Scientologists per se , but people who had decided to do the program w/out having even done a basic Scn course. So the cult attitude factor which usually cloud the judgement of the participants of Scn procedures was ruled out. Neither one of them gave a damn about pleasing any leader or LRH , as they still didn’t know enough about the subject , let alone about LRH.
After each period inside the sauna (which typically lasted from 15 to 25 mins depending on individual tolerance to heat) , I was able to observe that such reactions were diminishing after each period until they vanished completely with the participant originating by themselves feeling now physically better than when they had started the program for that given day. “Feeling better” ranged from feeling more alert, more energetic, more mentally alert, able to focus more, etc.
As the days went by , I noticed how the reactions of the participants were being less each time and less intense. Their feeling of general well being kept on improving under their own origination, until a point was reached (at different niacin dosages for each participant) were no more reactions were occurring on the program, and the person had reached a point where he felt very good with the entire process, with an increased sensation of general physical well being. At this point the program was then considered completed.
Of hundreds of supervised cases, I noticed the same exact patterns as described above. Some people reacted more than others. I myself used to spend long hours inside the sauna (not continuously) as part of watching closely a participant who was experiencing strong reactions to help him go through it. Some of those reactions were strong leaving the participant (specially the ones that had taken street drugs and a lot of alcohol) in a state of mental confusion, sometimes unable to properly control themselves. So I came into the sauna to watch them closely and to help them out.
What was peculiar, though, was that I never experienced any reactions beyond heat exhaustion which I was able to handle rather easily with enough water intake and potassium/salt supplements. But reactions or symptoms I had when I took some drugs, no. I wasn’t taking any niacin when getting into the sauna with others, of course. But when I did took it while doing the actual program, even though that I had already accumulated hundreds of hours inside the sauna over many months w/out any reactions, I then started to experience ALL kinds of reactions that I could clearly identify as reactions I had when I was under the effect of alcohol or any medical drugs of the so many I took when I was a preteen and a teen.
Other people used to go inside the sauna to spend some time there just for the fun of it, or to cover me up when I was doing my own program , and none of them experienced any reactions. None of them were on any intake of niacin. Of course , this aspect of sauna sweating w/out the niacin intake , was not something that I “tested” on enough individuals.
So after the compilation of all that data over a period of many years with dozens or hundreds of participants, each one of them under the same variables, I made the following conclusions :
1. The niacin apparently was a key element for the workability of the program. W/out it, no reactions besides some symptoms of salt/potassium depletion, were observed. On this last point I probably observed no more than 10-15 cases throughout those years as there was no need for anyone to get into the sauna if he wasn’t doing the program. But as I said before, I used to get into the sauna a lot, and others who helped me supervise it. Some staff also used to do this in the weekends, specially the one who led a vegetarian life. But I am quite aware that tests w/out niacin were very limited.
2. Apparently those drugs that the person had taken in the past had somehow remained inside the body as the participants could feel their effect again as though they were taking them again. Otherwise , how can they possible be able to experience full drug trips , feeling drunk , etc , etc.
3. The combination of the niacin intake coupled with the sweating in a sauna over several periods of time apparently made those drug residuals to “react” again , and get deactivated with enough periods inside the sauna.
4. Something was apparently gotten rid from the body as those reactions became less and less as the person progressed in the program.
5. There was an apparent connection between past mental pictures of drug experiences and drugs being eliminated from the body.
Obviously, those conclusions should have been be verified through actual physical tests performed by health practitioners , and backed up by other tests on control groups. The evidence were not conclusive to validate the original hypothesis. But it seemed truthful as predictions could be done with it that when looked for could be found to be true. The theory behind the program and the observations and compilation of information matched.
But I make no other allegations besides what I was able to observe myself. I wasn’t able to perform any physical tests to verify the data so compiled . But no participant got any adverse reactions from the niacin intake as such, at least nothing that during the same day didn’t turn off. That was what I was able to observe. Only one participant seemed to get very strong reactions even at 100mg of niacin , but I handled it (even if I was “violating” the HCOBs on that) by decreasing the dosage down to 25 mgs at a time until no reactions , then gradiently increasing it by 25-50 mg increments. This particular participant satisfactorily ended the program only at 1,000mg.
Is that a complete scientific test ? Of course it isn’t. But is much better than what has been presented here.
Anyway, there you have it. Don’t have a clue why you asked, and what purpose is behind it, but I was enough intellectually honest about it.
Best regards,
Peter
Tc, thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed response.
I know you know that such an experiment is inherently flawed. The hypotheses you mentioned are biologically specific and yet no biological tests were actually done to address them. Which totally defeats the entire purpose.
Similarly, no test was undertaken to even establish the existence of drug residues let alone one to objectively measure their successful/unsuccessful excretion.
What you are left with are your personal observations of subjects’ skin and psychological conditions and subject testimonials.
Your conclusions, therefore, are leaps of faith – they are not based on any objective, verifiable scientific evidence.
Niacin is known to cause various physical and psychological reactions. As tolerance to Niacin increases, some of these reactions dissipate. You conclude that this phenomena is due to the body “getting rid” of something, yet no part of your experiment effectively measures this. This is not science.
I am not suggesting the Purif has no therapeutic benefit. Nor am I suggesting it is harmless.
The study Mike refers to above is specific to 2 extended release Niacin-based prescription medications. It is unclear whether immediate release Niacin responds in the same way.
More research is clearly necessary. Credible research, I hasten to add.
“Tc, thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed response.”
TC : You are most welcome.
“I know you know that such an experiment is inherently flawed.”
TC : Yes , I do.
“The hypotheses you mentioned are biologically specific and yet no biological tests were actually done to address them. Which totally defeats the entire purpose.”
TC : I agree in part ; just remember that I wasn’t actually performing a professional experiment. I was in no position to do so. I could only work with the tools available to me at the time : observation , compilation of data , analysis of such data , and drawing conclusions based on that. I did mentioned in my reply to you and in my replies to Mike as well , that I thought that a controlled and complete research should be done in the program as a whole , not just about an isolated niacin intake w/out the other parts of the program being in.
“Similarly, no test was undertaken to even establish the existence of drug residues let alone one to objectively measure their successful/unsuccessful excretion.”
TC : Mwesten , no direct proof of the existence of ANY subatomic particle has ever been done , beyond the patterns that they allegedly left when experimenting with “them” at cyclotrons. Not even an atom has ever been actually observed beyond the patterns of them in a crystal. Unless you want to call a quantum image of an alleged “wave function” of the Hydrogen atom an actual observation of a particle. Quantum physics is full of unobservable variables , and many paradoxes as well. In fact , the “queen” of the theories of physics is totally based on the Copenhagen interpretation , a totally non-deterministic view of the universe. We can only indirectly observe the subatomic particles and the atoms themselves , by making predictions and hypothesis about their alleged behavior , mathematically explaining their behavior , and verifying those predictions. Many of those predictions couldn’t be found , and more “research” was done and more properties added to matter in order to “balance” the equations , and fit the “experiments”. And you are complaining that I didn’t perform any biopsies in order to “detect” drug residuals ? How exactly is Quantum Mechanics a “proved” thing ?
One can hypothesize about something , perform experiments , make predictions based on those hypothesis , and see if the actual observed and compiled data confirm or not those predictions. That has been done in the scientific community since time immemorial , and has allegedly as much validity than actually “seeing” something.
“What you are left with are your personal observations of subjects’ skin and psychological conditions and subject testimonials.”
TC : Yes , I agree ; and I myself clearly accepted that in my reply to you. But that has as much validity than actual physical tests. And it wasn’t only observation of the subjects’ skin , but actual observation of physical manifestations as well. Many “clinical tests” done by actual M.Ds in the field of nutrition , are based on direct observations of symptoms or lack of them , on psychological conditions , and on subject testimonials. Are they less valid ? Not necessarily.
“Your conclusions, therefore, are leaps of faith – they are not based on any objective, verifiable scientific evidence.”
TC : I think that I have already proved you wrong on that , with all the above comments.
“Niacin is known to cause various physical and psychological reactions.”
TC : Yes , but no real studies has ever been done as to WHY that is the way it is , only conjectures not backed up by actual experiments.
“As tolerance to Niacin increases, some of these reactions dissipate.”
TC : This is only a theory ; actually an hypothesis of yours. Why yours is better than mine ?
“You conclude that this phenomena is due to the body “getting rid” of something, yet no part of your experiment effectively measures this. This is not science.”
TC : I concluded it based on my observations , but made VERY clear in my reply to you that my information were not conclusive at all. You seems to purposely having omitted that little fact from your analysis. And I also made VERY clear that I had no way of physically measuring anything. I was only an I/C , for Christ sake , what was you expecting ? Performing biopsies in the middle of the program ? With the tools I had available , I did a good job at science , not any worse than your Quantum mumbo-jumbo , non-deterministic view of the world , with all its ghost particles.
“I am not suggesting the Purif has no therapeutic benefit. Nor am I suggesting it is harmless.”
TC : Good , it was about time for some objectivity here.
“The study Mike refers to above is specific to 2 extended release Niacin-based prescription medications. It is unclear whether immediate release Niacin responds in the same way.”
TC ; My point as well.
“More research is clearly necessary. Credible research, I hasten to add.”
TC : Opinion varies about what constitute that , dear Mwesten. :-)))
Good debating with you.
Best regards,
Peter
Well Peter,t hat was certainly a thorough and polite response to his post.
it was also thorough pseudoscientific nonsense (hwere could you have learned such reasoning?) forpù start to fiish.
I cannot find one assertion (with the arguable exception of your name) which has any basis in fact. Following you line of logic, one might even argue tht any proof of any facgt is possible.
Nonetheless, I will attempt with but one example of a provably false assertion of amajor point in your post which is easily verifiable (I will include the link, but it can be easily looked up if posting of links is impossible here– I have never tried it.
Mind you, I am under on illusion I may actually convince you, though I would be thrilled to eb proved wrong.I doubt anyone who would actually attach their name in writing in public to such laundry list of half-baked assertions, though you do seem intelligent and I have the impression youa re sincere– simply deeply misinformed, and clearly confused by some popular ancdotes about Quantum Mechanics.
You said:
” Not even an atom has ever been actually observed beyond the patterns of them in a crystal. Unless you want to call a quantum image of an alleged “wave function” of the Hydrogen atom an actual observation of a particle. Quantum physics is full of unobservable variables , and many paradoxes as well.”
Well, my friend, not have we seen atoms, we have been taking pictures of them for decades. Here is a link to two- An Emoji, and the more famous first one of “IBM” spelled out by 30-idd Xenon atoms. Not only could they be ‘seen’ and a picture made if them, they could be manipulated and moved into positions (kind of like human beings):
http://tinyurl.com/qjnkfx2
If you doubt my source (fir tone on Google, nothing more), then check it out yourself. Any book not written by L Ron Hubbard (who, it might be noted, did NOT get degree in Atomic Physics, not even close: Another provable fact).
The problem with this sort of response, is it regurgitates scientific and reasonable-sounding science-like and logical-sounding misinformation to a public all-too accustomed to swallowing this stuff whole.
And some times they do it with an unhealthy amount of Niacin (though I cannot imagine any quantity of “Diantetics” being consumed without lasting consequence to the mind, it has yet to be determined if some people were already cognitively confused before someone introduced them to Scientology.
You think that by personally attacking me, quoting an alleged “source” , and uttering a lot of rubbish , makes you seem like an “intelligent” individual? How pathetic. You haters will only be haters.I am not wasting my time to properly educate you. You obviously missed the whole point. I only debate with intelligent individuals with a real understanding of Science, not with slaves of scientific “Authorities”. There is no way to actually “see” something whose size is smaller than the wavelength of visible light. Others “seen” , are reconstructions and interpretations of images by a computer, not really a “seen” at all. But as I said, the other version of “Blind KSW supporters” , the “Blind followers of ‘authorities’ of science” , like apparently you are, are NEVER going to understand that.
TC, I too have never understood how there can be photos atoms as opposed to visual interpretations of information. I never bothered to ask my chemistry teacher to explain that twenty years ago when she happily showed the class such photos. I’m not qualified to dispute the matter, only question it.
You said you only debate with people who have a real understanding of science. Why would you debate somebody who had a real understanding of science? Wouldn’t you would debate them because you think it is you who have the real understanding and they who don’t?
“Blind followers of ‘authorities’ of science” is an interesting accusation. Knowledge is acquired in one of three ways: direct perception, inference and testimony. Scientific knowledge is one gained largely by testimony and we have scientific “rigor” to ensure that testimony is reliable. We are following the authorities when we look up information such as the size of a wavelength of light as you did. That makes you a follower of science authority. But what makes a person a BLIND follower of science authority? Is it somebody who also consults an authority but doesn’t agree with your conclusions? Is that also the definition of a “hater”? If nothing else, I’d love to know your definition of a “hater” within the context of this blog. I’m only asking that you explain what you say. All this deep science talk is a smokescreen in my opinion to distract from the fact that Mr. Hubbard employed a FOURTH means to knowledge: “divination”, to put it charitably. “Lying”, to put it candidly.
“TC, I too have never understood how there can be photos atoms as opposed to visual interpretations of information. I never bothered to ask my chemistry teacher to explain that twenty years ago when she happily showed the class such photos. I’m not qualified to dispute the matter, only question it.”
TC : Got it.
“You said you only debate with people who have a real understanding of science. Why would you debate somebody who had a real understanding of science? Wouldn’t you would debate them because you think it is you who have the real understanding and they who don’t?”
TC : No need to follow a circular logic about it, dear Roger. By “real understanding” It wasn’t meant that they necessarily have the correct answers, but rather that they have a full conceptual understanding of the principles behind the laws and the equations, instead of just parroting what they read on the science texbooks and academic articles. Science is constantly correcting itself and changing, and there is nothing wrong with that. Two scientists may differ in the way they interpret a physical phenomena, and their hypothesis and theories can differ as well, but having, each one of them, a conceptual understanding of the principles in question, they can debate and learn a lot from each other. They can even find the right answers, verifiable by others, by engaging in such a debate.
Einstein and Bohr , for example, debated for decades until Einstein passed away, about the scientific validity or lack thereof of “Quantum Physics”. Those dabates were very professional and friendly and actually resulted in both of them ascertaining on their own, and discovering many valuable principles.
I resent when, instead of just presenting the arguments counteracting mine, that someone who is just glibly parroting the texts, come here with silly personal attacks and general invalidations. My tendency is to attack them back and cut the comm line. I have little tolerance for stupidities. However, I have a TON of tolerance for intelligent arguments communicated with the intention to prove or disprove a point w/out going personal about it. Mwesten and Daniel were very professional in their arguments against mine. I actually enjoyed it a lot, and was even able to look at an angle I had ignored and missed before, when Daniel proved me wrong at one aspect of my analysis. In fact, the times when I have learned the most, are those when somebody proved me wrong with sensible arguments. I actually love debating cause I learn a lot from others.
“Blind followers of ‘authorities’ of science” is an interesting accusation. Knowledge is acquired in one of three ways: direct perception, inference and testimony. Scientific knowledge is one gained largely by testimony and we have scientific“rigor” toensure that testimony is reliable. We are following the authorities when we look up information such as the size of a wavelength of light as you did. That makes you a follower of science authority. But what makes a person a BLIND follower of science authority? Is it somebody who also consults an authority but doesn’t agree with your conclusions?”
TC : I think that you need to clear the word “blind” , dear Roger. I never said “followers of authority” , I said “BLIND followers of authority” , an entirely different thing. A lot, and I do mean a lot, of science personalities are looked upon by many students of science, specially physics, as infallible in all their researched principles and discoveries. They usually read the texts of such scientists with a blind faith in all that they have ever uttered or written about just as the strict adherents of KSW do with Scn. They do this w/out really understanding and evaluating the data, and arriving at their own conclusions whether or not such principles or theories are actually true or not, or whether or not the experiments behind those principles were actually carried out following the correct scientific methodology. For many of them, many of those “great scientists” are semi-gods never to be questioned at anything ; something resembling a lot with what happens with Scn followers.
Science, dear Roger, can become a cult for many, just are many religions can as well. And THAT, is what I am against : a blind acceptance of information just because some alleged “authority” says so. That is being a slave of knowledge. And I am no slave of anybody or anything.
“Is that also the definition of a “hater”? If nothing else, I’d love to know your definition of a “hater” within the context of this blog.”
TC : A “hater” for me, under ANY contex, not just this blog’s context, is anyone throughly fixated on the alleged harmfulness of any subject or terminal to such a degree that he divorces from reason and biased evaluations. That person only wants to assert his “rightness” about his viewpoint and won’t even look and examine any other possible angles to analyze and evaluate. His mission is destruction, not rehabilitation, his wish is revenge and punismemt , not forgiveness and compasion.
All of this viewpoints from so many here concerning the complete and utter harmfulness of ALL of Scn and of EVERYTHING about LRH are just, most of them, hate speeches as they ony seek destruction, not rehabilitation and balanced solutions where the Freedon of religion right be a part of those solutions.
“I’m only asking that you explain what you say. All this deep science talk is a smokescreen in my opinion to distract from the fact that Mr. Hubbard employed a FOURTH means to knowledge: “divination”, to put it charitably. “Lying”, to put it candidly.”
TC : Dear Roger, if you were really paying attention to my many of my posts in this thread, you would have realized that I have been also accusing LRH for being unscientific about so many things, and for disseminating what I consider just pure hype about the alleged results to be gained by his Rundowns and case levels. I suggest that you read ALL of them in a new unit of time. You are assuming that I am actually a Scientologist ; I am NOT.
Best regards,
Peter
Peter, WOW.
:-)))
Always good to get the viewpoint of the man on the ground Peter, thanks for the input!!
Any time , dear Penny. :-)))
Thanks for the validation.
Prove that all of your Putrif victims were healthier than when they went off. I want to see reports from a non-Scilon doctor for all of them. Otherwise, you’re going off of anecdotal information only (the participants claim they were healthier). That’s the problem with Scientologists; they’re only too willing to pump up anecdotes into absolute truths, and anecdotes that were forced out of them by the requirement to have Success Stories.
Peter, every time I think you’re breaking free, you take a step back into woo-woo territory.
“Prove” that they weren’t healthier. Let’s face it Espiando, no one is listening to you or your vitriolic and nasty commenting.
Apparently, you’re listening, because you keep replying to me.
Espi, I don’t think that’s true. Sir Turing would also disagree. 😉
they go mad when were winning!
” Prove that all of your Putrif victims were healthier than when they went off. I want to see reports from a non-Scilon doctor for all of them.”
You are so silly sometimes, dear Espiando. A vital part of correct medical evaluation and diagnosis, is INTERVIEWING the patient about how he feels physically , and the M.Ds USE that as data unless they notice obvious indicators to the contrary. One would think that you have never visited a doctor in your life.
An the correct definition for “Anecdote” is this :
“Anecdote (ˈænɪkˌdəʊt) n 1. a short usually amusing account of an incident, esp a personal or biographical one.”
An “anecdote” , dear Espiando , is not an accumulation of direct daily obsevation of patients for years in a row. Don’t be so silly about your “science”. Yours are not science, but mere fixations to make wrong everybody who disagree with you. You are no more “scientist” than my grandma was.
You are absurdly infering that the personal accounts of hundreds of participants, most of them non-Scientologists per se, are the figments of their imagination and mine as well. Is that is “science” , then I am Elvis Presley resurrected.
The fact is that almosts all your posts lack objectivity, respect for the views of others, respect for Human Rights , correct manners, and are just your own fixations about Scn and LRH. I guess that you must be a very lonely individual. Can’t imagine you having a family.
Adress me with respect, present your argumets with correct manners, with kindness and compasion for the views of others and may be, just may be, I will ever reply to any of your comments to me. Otherwise this is the last time , unless I feel the need to dead agent for others one or many of your stupidities.
Take care.
TC
Hmmm, I think you have the wrong definition for anecdote here. Try looking up anecdotal evidence. I am pretty sure this is the “anecdote” he was referring to. It is a very common usage of the term to mean something that is not scientifically measurable or controlled. Every success story about the Purif is anecdotal. It does not mean they are false.
Mike said ” Can you point me in the direction of that “effort to degrade the purif” as I WOULD like to compare notes about niacin. Which is the ENTIRE SUBJECT of this post.”
Here is one from Tony Ortega for a start;
“The study isn’t actually testing L. Ron Hubbard’s quack theories for how his sauna-and-niacin plan is actually supposed to work (as Jeffrey Augustine recently laid out in all of its goofiness). ”
Without the use of Niacin, the purif doesnt work, so why is niacin the main subject of this post? Why, when so many people benefit from it, are you finding niacin to be the bad guy?
The problem we have is the purif works, put it in the hands of a nut and it becomes toxic. But you are quite right, these sorts of debates are pointless.
Penny asked (obviously without reading the scientific links posted about large dosage Niacin intake), “Without the use of Niacin, the purif doesnt work, so why is niacin the main subject of this post? ”
Umm, because at the dosages used on the Purif, IT CAN KILL YOU!
If you now don’t understand why this blog post on Niacin, you are too far gone mentally to bother with.
drip….drip…………..drip.
To borrow a Christian saying, AMEN. John
You made it clear .. the Piltdown Man was a fake .. it is only one found in England .. never more .. LRH did locate this type of being on the whole track, and did not define where it was .. he defined an ape like man who eats up his family .. which he called whole track research .. I would call it bad dreams of people who searched for reasons .. which is quite understandable if you have to look for earlier similiar incidents .. you will invent the worsest dreams you can have ..
L ron Hubbard is a moron.
Any ‘wins’ from the purif are purely psychosomatic. Yeah, a month of exercise will help most people, but that is very incidental. You could take up cross country running and get the same benefit.
You have been told that ‘radiation’ and sunburns and drug residue will come out. Well, it doesn’t. Your kidneys and liver and pancreas do most of the blood filtering. You only sweat out water and whatever chemicals your sweat glands add to the mix.
The huge amounts of ‘vitamins’ and other substances the purifee takes probably just get pissed away, but the niacin dosage can hurt you. Even kill you if you are have a medical condition. The mix of ‘vitamins’ in the clam sauna may be very dangerous for other medical conditions.
Most of the ‘testimonials’ in the comments above are comparing apples to oranges. Those commenters have adopted the common argument method called false equivalency. Clams learned this method in all of the ‘courses’ that they bought. While all of the commenters decry Dave Miscavage, they have not left the house of Lron.
Lron was not the messiah, he was a very naughty boy. A naughty boy who made a lot of money off selling a self-help pyramid scheme that now enriches private investigators, lawyers and Miscavage.
The only difference between Creflo Dollar and Dave Miscavage is that Miscavage doesn’t need a 65 million dollar jet, he can borrow Tom Cruises, or John Travoltas or rent one any time he wants. And the bill will never be paid out of his pocket.
You say you’re not a chemist, Penny. Why not just go further and admit that you have no scientific education whatsoever, because that’s the case. Otherwise, you’d know that the Putrif doesn’t do what L. Fraud said it does. It is physiologically impossible from start to finish, something you would know if you had a modicum of scientific education (and I have more than a modicum, as well as the paperwork to prove it).
And then you try to Dead Agent Mike by saying that he’s part of a conspiracy to “discredit” the Putrif? There’s no conspiracy. There is scientific fact that the Putrif has no credit, from first sauna to last swallow of niacin. Mike is not part of a conspiracy. He’s not being duped by a conspiracy. He is investigating peer-reviewed scientific evidence.
[Edited by moderator]
Er, what is the “scientific fact” that the Purif has no credit?
Here’s one of many: LSD is stored in fat. No, it isn’t. LSD, as an acid, is water-soluble.
Espi, I have a question for you. Back in the day, several young men of my then acquaintance used getting “acid flashes” from former LSD trips as a way to become ineligible for the draft. These guys were not Scientologists, they were merely trying to get out of the draft with what was then a fairly popular excuse. So, As far as you know, are acid flashes real or possible? Because if LSD is water soluble and as such not stored in fatty tissue how would it stay in the body to give a later “flash”? Or, is this all nonsense, there being no such thing?
Acid flashbacks are all brain chemistry triggers. It’s not a revival of LSD that still remains in the body.
Penny, how do you feel about LRH claiming that smoking cures cancer?
LRH’s methods of research (which in my opinion were no more than what he could pull out of his ass) are laughable by high school science class standards…..never mind actual double blind studies, etc.
I congratulation you for not following the rest of the lemmings over the cliff with COP, but the power of suggestion is very strong. It seems those that drink the LRH Kool Aid are unwilling to even consider the idea that they are brainwashed/gullible/open to manipulation.
It’s one thing to believe something as a matter of faith (the virgin birth for example since COP is so fond of that comparison). It’s quite another to believe someone who tells you they discovered, invented or observed something.
Ask questions…. demand answers/accountability.
Hi Chee Chalker, I think you know how I feel about Ron’s gospel on smoking and radiation! I would not be here today if I had followed those pronouncements to the letter! Always like your posts,Ann.
Dead-ON, Chee Chalker,
Please let me use that definition of “LRH method of research” for my Unabashed Dictionary, thankyou, and repeat that it is good to know I’m not alone here.
Penny –
I hear what you are saying loud and clear, and I see things in much the same way. As troll-gangs form up here, I’m posting less. Hold your viewpoint – it sounds right to me..
So people who know L ron Hubbard is full of shit are troll-gangs
I think your summation is perfectly accurate.
Thanks Nickname, I appreciate the support.
Trolls think and attack the same way, after a while you can predict what they will do and if it wasnt Scn they would be finding something else to attack. I belong to other online communities, and trolls are just as much a problem there. They eventually just shut down the commline. It is a shame this blog has become a platform for them, but at least Mike posts what I have to communicate.
Same here Penny. You keep on saying what you want to say and ignore the yip-yappers.
As to any deleterious effect of high dosages of Niacin in all the hundreds of cases that I knew of in my time in the Church only one had a problem and that was not because of Niacin but because he had fairly constantly put his vitamins on to an empty stomach instead of lining it with yoghourt thus causing his stomach to bleed, which is pointed out in the Purif HCOBs. The suppressive use of overrunning the Purif deliberately at high dosages of Niacin in some rare cases however is another and reprehensible matter but that is like saying all doctors are bad because of a few that give wrong injections.
Is it possible…just possible…that people (any not just purif users) took niacin in LRH approved conditions, dose etc., and had problems after your time with them as a c/s (as it was said some did not become scientologists, so I assume – perhaps incorrectly, that there may not have been contact with them after a period of time where conditions “may” have been attributed to niacin consumption). Long term effects(not limited to niacin use either, but since it’s the topic at hand), even from a small time of use “may” have implications that are not immediately visible, or “may” contribute or induce a health problem that wasn’t present before due to the absence of the niacin. In other words…was niacin a catalyst, not because of a previous condition but a condition that niacin induced? It is possible? Or it may not have ever happened that way. –I believe in being open to both sides of possibilities until proven otherwise…devils advocate if you will.–
This is a could go either way as a question for you – it is not an indictment of beliefs or what you witnessed. I think it “may” be fair to say that some (not all – as no 2 people are the same) may exhibit negative repercussions after the initial period of treatment be it two weeks or two years, and some may not have.
As it has been beaten to death on this topic before – I think, scientifically, the only way to be positive is long term studies of both limited time users and long term users (as many people have posted both as pro and con examples).
To me, the bottom line is this: regardless of how it is administered, under what circumstances, what medical history- if ANY substance is proven via tests and studies conducted in the appropriate testing methods and verified that they are detrimental to a person’s health in doses that meet or exceed X quantity, it is not safe for consumption for physical conditions. All harm stems from excess is not always true by literal definition. Sometimes any of a substance is too much, though I am not saying this is the case here, just food for thought.
In terms of scientific studies reversing themselves over time, that is the very nature of science. If not, we would never progress at all. Science is there to continually question, hypothesize, test, evaluate and render a determination based on the availability of technology and information at the time. Science, as a general rule, proves and disproves. What is not provable today may be due to a lack of knowledge and technology, but may be proven (to the affirmative or negative) later. Further, what was proven under the available technology before may be overturned under those same conditions.
We once thought the earth was flat. It is no longer case, definitively – as a point of illustration, but this is is quite a bit more complicated since it isn’t as black and white and round versus flat. The human body and genetics bring the range of possibilities to another level. Yet, certain compounds do cause harm regardless of the person. They may yet live after exposure, but they still have negative repercussions as a souvenir.
There is a study cited which indicates what niacin resulted in under the testing conditions present. No doubt one can have multiple studies with copious amounts of different mitigating material (the addition or subtraction of vitamins, ages, genders, conditions administered, length of time, dosage etc.,). Which may or may not alter the findings.
Education on the results of THIS study are important and will hopefully continue in order to provide more information across a broader range for those who use niacin for many different reasons. This study may or may not be equally applicable to every person, but it may impact some – therefore having the info available is important for each individual and their doctor in order to make the best decision possible with the available information. If it applies, great…if not then they can willingly choose to discard it as it does or doesn’t apply to their situation. I don’t want to throw the baby out with the bath water.
(Extreme oversimplification coming with a tenuous tie to the discussion due to the different nature of my example, but it’s intended as an example of faith/belief versus currently accepted scientific research.)
I now bring faith/belief into the equation, and say that if a study (not real numbers but just for the sake of this discussion) shows that utilizing a seatbelt decreases the risk of head trauma in head on collision car accidents where drivers were going 30 MPH or higher by 70%…and your faith/belief was that seatbelts were verboten- would it be wise to not evaluate/consider this and then knowingly decide based on the availability of that study whether or not the use of seatbelts “may” be merited, or not review the study at all or dismiss it simply because you’ve never been in an accident or because of everyone you’ve known who have been in accidents, that meet the above criteria, didn’t receive a traumatic head injury? As it is a faith/belief based issue it is up to each individual, but I, for one, would want to know the information to make a truly informed decision. I know that is a poor comparison, but I wanted to keep it on as neutral ground as possible, because everyone has the right to believe what they wish and I don’t wish to devalue a belief someone holds to. But I do hope that people respect the right for all persons to have and utilize whatever information is present when forming their decisions- be it personal observation and/or scientific study. There is room for both IMO within degrees, but a person should know what strings may or may not come attached with their choice.
Just my 2 cents without any intent to offend or demean anyone else. Free will is free will, but how free is free if you don’t know all the available information when forming your mind to the path you’ve chosen?
I wish for all to make up their own minds based on all the tools at their disposal.
Thanks for your so balanced , sensible, and so theta-filled comments , dear Bravebloggers. I wish more posters here were as balanced as you apparently are.
I approve of the dissemination of ANY study as long as the dissemination of it doesn’t have any slants to it either way which, with all due respect to Mike, I feel this one did had it , even if unwittingly so.
Most comments on this thread mostly degenerated into statements based on hate, fixed ideas, preconceptions, and many “Look how evil and useless is Scn and LRH” comments. What happened in this thread is covered in detail in Rathbun’s masterpiece, “Scientology’s Vortex of Hate”.
Here is the link so everybody here can read it by themselves, and arrive at their own conclusions about it.
https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2015/03/29/scientologys-vortex-of-hate/
Anyway, your post was a sanity balm which clearly shows that all is not lost.
Best regards,
Peter
I think it is very easy to be passionate about something extremely personal to you. And when it is equally personal to others, who are equally passionate, the doors open to misinterpretation, perceptions and a cornucopia of points of validity being missed due to the emotional climate activated.
I see many on this thread saying the same thing in different ways, but still butting heads, and many saying opposing things. Each “voice” writing louder than the previous. I see people insulting each other with malice intent to try and prove their point or negate another’s position or opinion. I wish it wasn’t so. Disagreement can be a powerful and a useful mechanism IMO, though many disagree. But disagreement is a more effective tool when conducted with respect. One can agree to disagree and may yet have seeds of thought sewn, even if the ideas or concepts don’t grow in the exact direction a person would like.
I’m not exempt from passionately expressing my opinion, thoughts or feelings — sometimes at the price of someone else’s- though not with malicious intent.
Communication can be difficult in the best of circumstances, and the written word leaves much more room for conflicting interpretation as non-verbal communication (like facial expressions, eye contact, body stance and tone of voice as a few examples) are scientifically proven to resonate and “speak to a listener” at a higher degree as opposed to the literal spoken word. (Studies indicate, if I’m remembering correctly, non-verbal communication hits anywhere from as low as 40% to as high as 70% depending on the individual, averaging 50-60% as a norm…with actual words spoken ranging somewhere in the 30% range on average. That is a remarkable aspect when you think about it, and see thread wars play out due to an absence of some of the key elements of the mind’s recognition/use of Inter-personal communication skills that are utilized everyday in face to face communication. – Anywho…I digress.
I think it is extremely difficult to avoid some degree of slant, intentional or otherwise, when a matter is near and dear to you, and that increases exponentially with the written word, IMHO.
I recall a situation when I was in a Foreign country where I didn’t speak their native tongue, nor they mine. When I was attempting to repeat the words they couldn’t understand the first and second time I said whatever I said, I would invariably speak louder the next go round, which is laughable when you think about it, as if by increasing the volume they would suddenly understand what I was saying. And frequently the reverse proved true in communication attempts from them to me.
I mention that story here because I think we sometimes “invariably speak louder” on these threads, but we need not as we have a mutual native tongue. It would be great if we could simply agree to disagree with that native tongue, and respect each other’s rights to their own opinions even if we don’t agree with them.
Again, just my 2 cents for what they are or aren’t worth. I will continue to hope and strive for everyone (including myself when I screw up) to remember my native language experience. 🙂
Thank you for this important article. A good number of the many current and past lawsuits that have been filed against Narconon concern these side effects of Niacin issues Intestinal bleeding, liver toxicity and severe infections causing emergency trips to local hospitals were not uncommon. I recall 1 patient in particular who died a week after finally being taken to the hospital. She died due a blood clot in the lung caused by an several weeks of untreated pneumonia that started up after completing the sauna component of the program. Over the years I have received complaints from people about high blood pressure and blood sugar problems while on the program, especially in those who were taken off blood pressure medicines at the start. Niacin is dangerous and the Purification Rundown used in Scientology is as well. Since it’s the same program used in Narconon, people are at risk.
At Narconon Reviews we try to educate the public about this, including the posting of all the complaints and lawsuits. It would be wonderful if the licensing agencies looked into the dangers of Niacin before determining whether to give or renew a Narconon facility license.
Thank you Mary McConnell. I love how some people automatically assume that because someone had physical difficulty on the purif, they must already be in poor health, have an underlying disease condition, be a hard-core drug addict, an alcoholic, or didn’t eat yogurt with their supplements. The usual oversimplified explanations for non-optimum results or conditions. And if that isn’t enough, they will then fall back on making accusations of people being “malicious” or just plain “not understandin of the tech”, or how a ‘science’ is researched, etc. I appreciate how you put your thoughts and experience forward on this topic.
Thank you Pepper. You make an excellent point about assumptions and oversimplifications. Its so easy for people to jump to those conclusions for lack of factual information and ignorance in believing Hubbard was a perfect human being and scientist, when he sure wasn’t!
Thank you for your kind words. I try to educate when I can. Its encouraging to see more attention and interest to these issues.
BTW, more information on the dangers of the program are noted in the recently released video series of the amazing Scientology: Getting Clear Convention that was held in Toronto last June. There are 2 Narconon presentation segments, one specifically focusing on the toxicology and dissecting parts of Hubbard’s Clear Body Clear Mind. We were fortunate to have expert toxicologist Angela Harris, PhD explain the unscientific basis of Hubbard’s assumptions and the potential dangers they cause people on the purif / detox program More information on how to see then can be found here in Dr. James Beverley’s post at ESMB http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?40448-Getting-Clear-conference-films-ready-for-purchase
Thank you Mary for the link. I will definitely check it out. This is an interesting topic to me and one that I follow.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3019651/I-freaking-Radio-host-Ryan-Fitzy-Fitzgerald-reveals-persuaded-U-S-actress-visiting-Church-Scientology-terrifying-moment-pitch-black-basement.html
‘I was freaking out’: Radio host Ryan ‘Fitzy’ Fitzgerald reveals the terrifying moment he found himself alone in a dark basement after he was persuaded by a U.S. actress to visit Church of Scientology
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3019651/I-freaking-Radio-host-Ryan-Fitzy-Fitzgerald-reveals-persuaded-U-S-actress-visiting-Church-Scientology-terrifying-moment-pitch-black-basement.html#ixzz3mDwUP6nN
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Another needle in the side for dear leader.
He would it was a overdose ,not of niacin. Oh no never that. No elicit drugs,the the evil theten did.
That the niacin released.
If Hubbard could hear this on target 2 .He would say as ll the deaths are caused by all the drugs the person did in their whole track.LOL
A friend of mine (ex-member) just sent this excellent blog to the still-ins. I am very curious about their respond!
Good for your friend. My best wishes and we will all join in on this 🙂
Hansje Brinker please don’t be shy about reporting in explicit detail! 🙂
Well, the ex-member send this post to 70 still-ins. He got three reactions and were typical cult-like/ Scientology swagger. “I can think for myself/ I can make my own dicisions/ I can look for myself/ I have great wins from scientology/ I don’t want mails from you etc.”
Well, it was predictable these kind of reactions. But perhaps he planted a little seed…….
Thanks Hansje, I think it’s very bold of your friend to send 70 still-ins Mike’s blog. Seeds were planted for sure. Once the truth is heard there’s no unhearing it!
Good deal Hansje. When Marty left and started a blog I sent it to all the email addresses of scn’ers I had along with an explanation. Got a handful of similar responses but I’m sure many stopped participating after a while. (Mike didn’t have a blog back then)
Roger, if some of the “still ins” read the comments section, they will come to the conclusion that management is right, the outside idiots, the Ex’s, are really insane and suppressive. We really have to grant more beingness, and maintain ARC.
If all the commenters on this blog want to be effective and communicate, then we must stay real to them. Evaluate from their point of view, not our own. At present, there are too many here preaching / yelling to the choir. They may think that they are doing some good, but they sound like they just want to hear themselves spout out loud.
1984, I prefer to do as I please and I’m content to let everybody else do the same. You’re actually lecturing me, that’s funny.
Listen, guys, I’m a recent “out” who is extremely pissed just venting……in my own 1.1 way, OK?
How dare you come here and trifle with our hair-trigger tempers? You have restimulated some past life events on my time track and for that I am now further damaged and will require some scientology auditing to clean me up for a couple seconds before something else happens that proves I’m not in control of everything I’m supposed to be. So…yeah, it’s okay.
Congrats Joe! Glad you made it out. I like venting ……………….splurge on it!
You are the man, Joe.
Scientology could ONLY exist as a religion. Without First Amendment protection Scientology would be sued out of existence. Yet, somehow, selling a person, what is effectively a medical treatment, and calling it spiritual, does not make it any less dangerous. What will it take for the US government to draw a line between a spiritual practice and quackery that can kill?
Hubbard used the good reputation of science to “validate” his spurious claims, starting with Dianetics: The Modern SCIENCE of Mental Health. Yet, never failed to take a swipe of notable scientists, and invalidating the efforts of a group he owed tremendous gratitude. But this seems to be a pattern of his: take advantage of someone or use their work, claim it to be your own, then either get rid of them or assassinate their character.
All his life he craved approval from the scientific community for his “groundbreaking discoveries.” But he was never a member of that community. He never did what was required to enjoy membership. He even went as far as presenting himself as a PhD using a diploma mill.
Why would the scientific community EVER consider validating Hubbard? Someone who hijacked their profession, pretended to be someone he was not, made “scientific” claims without burden of proof or peer review. refused to play by their rules, and proclaimed to work miracles (provided you had enough money), then mocked their leaders and institutions.
Sorry, but, this fits my definition of an asshole.
You can be an asshole in science (I have met a few of them ;)). People you definitely would not want to have a beer with. Still, they produced good work, and that work was recognized.
The thing is, in science, you have to do your homework – bring evidence to back your claims. There’s not much use to beg and kiss butts in a healthy scientific discipline for approval if that is not done.
Hubbard never did his homework. He would not have recognized the scientific method if it had danced naked juggling chocolate donuts in front of him. He could have flattered the scientific community with all the strength of his narcissistic superficial charm, it would not have made the slightest difference in the outcome.
I was C/Sed to re-do the Purif (did originally in 1979) in 2005. Took about 4 months most of the time at 5000 mg Niacin, because there continued to be a tiny reaction (guess I’m lucky all I was getting was tiny reaction). Don’t know if it was connected, but my health then went into a mysterious decline over the next three years. (weight gain, one of my eyes blew up, my knee blew up, getting sick every couple months) End result for me was I got out of the SO due majorly to my concern that staying in was going to kill me young. I immediately set to work resolving my health issues doing my own research and self-treating (supplements researched and taken intelligently) with tremendous success. Have no idea if the Purif or Niacin intake caused or contributed to the health decline, but in retrospect, maybe it did.
I can’t necessarily agree or disagree with the information from the studies featured in this posting. In the course of doing my own research into nutrition, I have run into many instances where “Scientific” studies in the field of medicine, health, nutrition etc have turned out to be horribly wrong — so I always approach such findings with caution. Plenty of scientific research is corrupt, incompetent, performed to benefit a vest interest, or just plain in error. But on the other hand, LRH’s reports and findings had nothing to do with Science at all and seemed to be a bunch of off-the-cuff mental leaps if not outright made up out of thin air. So while I don’t necessarily accept the Science in this post, I most certainly reject the “science’ of Scientology.
Hi SadState. Your C/S on your Purif was not following the quite straightforward directives in the Purif HCOBs of when the program is finished. Quite simply from what you say it seems you were being overrun on it – the only reason I can think why this occurred (apart from the usual one of misunderstood words) is that the C/Ses in Miscavige’s Church are paranoid and think they must eke out every drop of a rundown or else they will get Comm Eved for being squirrel or something, when in actual fact they were squirreling by not following the very straightforward text in the HCOBs on when the program is finished and when it is being overrun. Same thing seems to be the case for Karen DLC’s post about Ame Scobee above, although that seems to have some sort of basis of punishment in it as well. Both are squirrel applications of the rundown.
I cant’t help it but:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TEvacFETvM
Makes me a little apprehensive knowing I’ve been poisoned in the name of spiritual gain. I much prefer to spend good money knowing I’ve poisoned myself with and for legitimate reasons, like alcohol and the other niceties of life like sugar based highs and lows and some stuff we don’t mention in public forums.
I do like to be OT about what I’m killing myself with… don’t you?
Hi IYawnalot,You are so good,great post,thank you.Love,Ann.
Joe: There are far more of us out here than there are of you in there. Think about that. Sorry, I shouldn’t have said “think”. Wouldn’t want to strain you. 🙂
Great post, Mike. One of your best.
The vitamin/supplement industry has very little real oversight. The FDA only acts when concrete evidence of harm has been very well documented. Remember Fen-phen? That ‘drug’ directly caused heart attacks and permanent cardiopulmonary damage.
The veterans in the Maryland sauna study are getting huge amounts of ‘vitamins’ and peanut oil (or some thing like that) and all that from a clam vitamin salesman and clam doctor. Well, that study is saving before and after blood samples. I do hope that any one injured in this ‘study’ subpoenas those blood samples as evidence for their civil suit.
$cientology has no science and as the wit of Lroon can’t be changed, can never correct any of his mistakes. The Piltdown man hoax hobbled anthropology for 50 years. All the anthropologists were looking in Europe for hominids. Meanwhile, down in South Africa Raymond Dart couldn’t get help with his discovery of Australopithecus.
How many clams have been kicked out or over charged because they developed diabetes after a purif or had other health problems??? Why they must have pulled it in!!! Lroon is never to blame, at least until some civil suit or criminal prosecution proves otherwise.
Define “science.”
Easy.
A discipline which uses the scientific method : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
And another important thing to remember is the Purification Rundown is not only foolish to do because of the dangers, it is also foolish to do because it doesn’t work. It does not clean and flush the body of toxins. The body sweats to cool down, not to release toxins. It’s a stupid endeavor, and any “wins” are placebo. I’ve done 4 purifs, plus the original, and the rubber suit. And yes, LRH does get a little wild with his tales. I remember hearing one tape where he says there is life on Venus, and that he almost got run over by a train there. They now know that the temperature is 900 degrees F, and the pressures would crush a car. Also, his definition of an F/N is incredibly misleading. He throws in the word “rhythmic” which goes against all other definitions, and then says it is the only correct definition. I’ve had some good wins in Scntlgy. But I’ve also experienced incredible stupidity and Bullshit. Stay away from the purif.
Hi Overunincalifornia,A very timely post,thank you.I was before The Purif but I was told to wrap my legs with Saran Wrap when I was sent to run barefoot in Griffith Park.And wear a ridiculous winter jogging suit on top of it all.Did that for months.Also I listened to that tape yrs ago ,when after post was done I went and hit the big reel to reels of Ron at Asho F.Back then the Venus bit made perfect sense.( smile) Thank goodness it makes no sense now.Always,Ann.
Yeah, I remember the saran wrap pilots. They were replaced by rubberized jogging suits. Sweat would literally pour out of the bottom of the pants when the elastic was pulled open. Reminded me of one of those gross Jackass stunts of collecting sweat from someone’s butt crack….
Hi Mike, Now I can truly say you are a Hero with the absolute best sense of humor going! Now when I think of those Saran Wrap plastic cling saunas,I will always think of the last bit of your post and laugh! Very good for me to do today! Thank you my dear friend always.Love to you both.Ann.
Well Ann, while you were running in Griffith Park, I was running in Hollywood. I carried around a section of vacuum cleaner aluminum pipe for the dogs that would chase me.
And peeling that rubber suit off after running in it……I felt like a vacuum packed cold cut. What a crock. I’ve said this a few times before here; there are ways to get rid off toxins in the body, the Purif just ain’t one of them.
Think about this one; you drink straight oil to replace bad fat. Where the hell did this come from?
Oh yea, the body won’t release the bad fat, unless you got “good fat” to replace it with. It may work that way in fantasy land, but in reality drinking straight fat is just bad for you, it only adds to the existing fat you already have.
Hey Scientologists, would you jump off a Bridge if LRH told you to? SOP.
Yes they would Overrun
Hi Overrun in California, Yup we were running buddies for sure! And when I was in, I would have jumped off a bridge if Ron had told me too,in the beginning! Terrible! Love your posts.Always Ann.
Oh my… the things the Cof$ made us do. A sense of humour is necessary in dealing with the memories. Had done some weird stuff in the military too but I could see more sense there. There’s always too much time on your hands as a soldier so they dream up stuff to keep you occupied, hence out of trouble.
Scientology of the other hand… well, I guess that’s the best part about this forum, trying to make sense of the craziness and seek resolution of some sort, but at the end of the day, crazy is crazy.
Hi I Yawnalot,Yes totally agree,crazy is crazy at the end of the day.XO Ann.
Hi Mike, Thank you for this informative post about niacin. I was one of the Case Supervisors for the Purif at CC Int in the 90’s. I have mentioned this before, but have never really been able to find out for sure about this, and maybe you know? Around 96 or 97 Dr. Denk showed up at CC Int to talk to me. He had a letter in his hand from Senior C/S Int (who I think several times I said was Mithoff but in thinking about it, I think it was actually Wilhere). In the letter, it said something to the effect of: “since you were involved in the original Purif research” (which I have not been able to confirm but I am pretty sure it was in this letter from him to Dr Denk). Anyways, the letter was asking Dr. Denk if niacin dosages above 5000mg were safe. In other words, if a person had made it to 5000 mg of niacin and did not complete the Purif to EP, could they be increased above 5000mg. And Dr. Denk was asking ME. I told him no way.
Sunny wrote:
“Anyways, the letter was asking Dr. Denk if niacin dosages above 5000mg were safe. In other words, if a person had made it to 5000 mg of niacin and did not complete the Purif to EP, could they be increased above 5000mg. And Dr. Denk was asking ME…”
OMFG.
Fondly recalling Dr Denk’s sense of humor, Sunny, I honestly wonder if he was “testing” you. Or, perhaps, he wanted to show you his letter from Senior CS Int, who — I believe — was Ray Mithoff. Even Amy Scobee’s exceedingly long purif had the niacin maxed out at 5000mg for months. See Amy’s comment down thread. I’m suspect Dr Denk knew the answer to the question he was asking you.
Hi TheWidowDenk, Yes I am familiar with Dr Denks sense of humor. And I was sure that he knew the answer. My point was the fact that the Scientology executives were ready to authorize increases ABOVE 5000 mg, and that they were seriously considering it.
Oh! Sorry, I didn’t read your comment that way and was ready to jump in to defend Dr Denk. I concur with what you have said here …
😉 Hugs to you. I really liked Dr Denk and worked with him several times over the years because I was over staff medical for CC Int.
Hi Sunny, see my post above to SadStateofAffairs on overrunning the Purif. I have a feeling from the import of your text above that in Miscavige’s Church now (and then) the seeming fact that he or they are looking to increase the dosage of Niacin above 5000mg means of course they are now doing it wrong, and thus looking for an unusual solution to and justification for one of Miscavige’s theories or hobby horses, as usual. I have known hundreds of cases that completed the program in a quite straightforward manner and many completed before the 5000mg level of Niacin was reached anyway. I have also never known of any case that went on and on at a high level of Niacin without the effects petering out, and usually in quite short order. So for Mithoff to be on some sort of crusade to see if they can increase the dosage smacks of Miscavige throwing yet another spanner into the Scientology works to somehow justify some theory of his, which usually is based on someone he or others wants to punish, like Amee Scobee’s case above seemingly. The Purif bulletins are quite simple to follow as to when it is finished but it seems some sort of spanner has now been thrown into the works on when the program is complete and this “research” into “can they go above 5000mg” is yet another one of these spanners, or an attempt to make Miscavige’s pet theory on this, if it exists and it seems it does, “true”.
Foolproof, 3000mg of niacin can cause death. El Con didn’t know what the F he was doing. He wasn’t a scientist or an M.D. He was a charlatan and a quack. Yes, one of El Con’s favorites (DM) is also psycho.
Why don’t you just get lost Locke – you are talking absolute rubbish as usual. I begin to wonder if you are not some OSA troll that is trying to cast this blog as a haven for nutcases and anti-Scientologists so that those still in the Church read your drivel and decide to stay in the Church as they think they are better off with Miscavige than folks like you. The only psycho here is you (well, alright DM as well).
If John is spouting rubbish, at least it’s his own rubbish. You spout the rubbish of some fat fraud who’s been dead for thirty years, and you can’t even claim it as your own. That, sir, is the sign of a person being a waste of oxygen.
Espi, you went to college as did I. So we are both familiar what it takes to learn truth. The Ronbots that are here are out of the “church” and have thus been exposed to all the myriad data about El Con, No OTs, no clears, et al. If they haven’t figured it out by now it is because of diminished capacity or an intention to criminally harm others. I only post here and other gathering places similar to counter the lies told by the criminal minded so that new innocents don’t get sucked in.
You put your finger on part of the problem.
I dont think this blog is really needed to convince any innocents not to get sucked in. They are going to look to more authoritative sources than me (Going Clear, Russell Miller, BBC etc etc).
I DO hope that this blog can be a place where those who are in doubt or have questions or are “on the fence” can see that they are not “insane” and that others ALSO see the Emperor has no clothes.
WHile I allow many of your comments and those of Espiando and others through, it does bother me a bit that it is turning into an environment where the people i am trying to reach as above will be scared off by the “anti-scientology” stance. They have to be reached on a gradient. They don’t accept instant rejection of all things Hubbard.
So, this is a bit of an appeal to you and others to try and moderate your expression. Not your opinions. You have as much right to those as every other person does. And a lot of what you all have to say is well reasoned and intelligent. Just using less antagonistic and vitriolic language would be appreciated. You don’t HAVE to call Hubbard “El Con” every time or call people names. It doesn’t make your position more likely to be accepted — EXCEPT by those who already agree with you. But they dont need any convincing. And if your real purpose is to reach those who DONT know about Hubbard and Scientology, then it would serve your interests better.
Hi Mike, Thank you so for your post this evening.I have noticed that there seems to be little islands around some posters recently and none wants to put out to sea and try to see the bigger picture.I post here because I feel safe and I want my story to have some meaning to some one.If they get comfort with what they went through by posting her eitherwhen they left cos long ago or recently,or if they have family still in I can only hope the light will hit them some day,those still inI mean.I have also learned so much here from you all and have made truly amazing friends and soul mates. You know I loved Ron.loved his family and I know now there are good indies that really do try and help others.It is the ones that will never peek behind the curtain to try and see the flaws in Ron’s World that I have a hard time with.And I still am very careful about friend or foe here as I have good reason to be.Other than that I think it is remarkable what you do and what we do here every week And RB is such a beautiful spirit and every week gives us jewels with the work produced.Well love you and Christie and thank you always Ann.
Understood Mike. Wilco. (as I typed that last word I remembered that long ago admonishment against it per that R ref. Funny how it sticks around.
Mike you said in response to John Locke “I dont think this blog is really needed to convince any innocents not to get sucked in.” Sucked in?
“They have to be reached on a gradient.” Where does that gradient end up?
To me it seems obvious that you would no longer call yourself a Scientologist and from some of your comments and responses to critics, it seems you are an anti Scientologist. Please correct me if I am wrong, but where actually do you stand? I think your readers have the right to know!
I post a blog post every day. If readers don’t know where I stand, I don’t think there is anything else I can say or do. People love labels, but I’m not putting one on myself, I leave that to you.
Carry on taking your psych drugs which you are so fond of mentioning Espiando or maybe increase the dose as they don’t seem to be working in suppressing your evil intentions. Or perhaps you can find the cure for them in your pet subject of Physics?
I understand Mike .And I will tone down.I want to help people as well.
Please define the phrase “evil intentions”. I’d like to know what I’m doing correctly.
Espi, he meant the intention to stomp ignorance out of this world.
Nice one FoolProof,
I keep telling you not to bother with these people, they are dedicated to the destruction of LRH Technology at any cost. It does not matter how many times you state reasons against their arguments which are usually are ridiculous they are VERY out Grade IV,, and Ex-Dn cases.
They get a voice in here disguised as logical argument etc etc free speech. Yip Yap Yip Yap LOL.
I think Mike puts all this rubbish up just for a laugh, unless he too has given up completley and resigned himself to a beeif that nothing works except physics or the medico’s ravings.
I agree Foolproof. OSA prompt antiscientology comments to make sure scientologists stays away from blogs like this one.
The stat of people leaving the church is down, down, down. And this since Marty Rathbun for exemple has become anti-Hubbard.
More shit on scientology more people stays with Miscavige. The end result is scientology has a subject vanish. It’s buried under Miscavige lies and greed in the church and Hubbard’s disparager out of the church.
FG, it’s worse than even you think. Mike Rinder allows us OSA guys to comment because … He is REALLY in charge of OSA again. Not only that, DM slips out the back whenever he’s in CW and pow=wow’s with Rinder. O M G !!!!!
At last the Truth.
I had suspected this for some time.
I must write to a physics expert and see if there is some sort of complicated formula that proves this, as nothing else on Earth works.
Foolproof why don’t you get lost.
What’s even sadder, John, is there just ain’t nobody to help you, no more, no more, no more — there ain’t nobody to help you no more. You’re still busy makin’ dam sure of that, Pat.- Still busy makin’ sure of that!! Look around you right now, see any looks of concern anyhow?
Might is RIGHT! – I hear you say, Then whimper pathetically, when the diagnosis you feared, is confirmed today; “Sorry, Mr. Locke, to have kept you waiting so long, but the results of your tests stated ‘negative’, were in fact, actually wrong! “– Whatever happened to the Love, Gratitude, and Respect, dear John? — Whatever happened to YOU?
— racing.
Apparently, Calvin, there’s nobody to help you either. May I cite a post you made to the South African blog on June 13, 2014, in which you said that the existence of microwave ovens and microwave transmission towers was an excuse for everyone to have a good, old Putrif? Do you still back that up? That statement alone is sufficient evidence to regard you as Fucking Batshit Crazy and worthy of being ignored.
Here’s the link to the article in question. Just scroll down and witness Calvin “My Tin Hat’s On Tight” Duffield make an ass of himself: https://backincomm.wordpress.com/2014/06/12/yet-another-library-scampaign/
Well Espiando my wife’s village where she was born now has a much higher rate of cancer since a nice big juicy microwave telephone mast was erected in the area. So maybe Calvin’s idea ain’t so bad after all. I think one can find many studies which support this theory, as well as for cordless and cell phones.
Anecdotal evidence. Please cite a peer-reviewed scientific study on a link between microwave broadcasting and cancer.
anspodiE
http://www.radiationresearch.org
No doubt the moron will find problems with as well as everything else.
Espi wrote, “Please cite a peer-reviewed scientific study on a link between microwave broadcasting and cancer.”
That animal does not exist.
You see, “Esp” (or actually don’t it seems, LOL) the link you painstakingly “uncovered” (why?), includes the posting ABOVE my response, where your ad hom “material’ was sourced!. — So Bat shat on YOUR head, instead, “Ed!”
Go ahead readers, check out “Espianado’s” vitriolic comments above, then compare his claims, to the link HE provided for his ultimate purpose — “witness Calvin “My Tin Hat’s On Tight” Duffield make an ass of himself. ”
— Then make up your mind, which of us is: “Fucking Bat Shit Crazy and worthy of being ignored”
LOL, unbelievable! So then “Esp?” –let me ask you now:
Whatever happened to the Love, Gratitude, & Respect, man?
See what happens to you — when you abandon those things?
–Take em back, amigo, and your vision BRIGHTENS! Ditch the lies & hate and vitriol recedes — you “see”? 🙂
My work is done here!
I support you John.There just sad the truth about l fraud are getting out
Thanks Gary
racing-
You know I love you.
But, I’m completely lost here. Honestly, I havent a subjective clue what point you are objecting to.
I know you know that tossing out your evaluation of John is just a waste of time, but if you’re critical of his style just say so. Instead, you reflect it, get sucked in and start the same thing, demonise-zing his intelligence, et all. It doesn’t stop. My complaint is that it quickly becomes all about nothing, and not what we are here for. John, I bet you started it, but that’s not my point either, except don’t. Don’t start with me or anybody else. Just state your points, cleanly as possible. Effectiveness guaranteed.
Do not evaluate the preclear, keeps the session rolling forward.
(gag, did I actually say that?)
Bravo, Mark You actually did! Just give the rest a miss!
– Now finish with a bow, if you please.. 🙂
Mark I like the person who said what you said although I differ in my outlook as I don’t see any problem.There is just this unfolding emotional and intellectual drama. Tempers flare, insults are thrown, with lots of laughter in between. It may be rather rowdy but that’s the way I like it!
Perhaps, dear John, you’re not as much an ‘apostate’ as DMented thinks you ARE. But then DMentia always assigns conditions as TRAITOR.
Spare a moment John, if you CAN, to ponder your activity, as any more than a sham? WTF are you really doing here ?– when you’d be so much better off, plastered by your sixth beer!
— racing
Sunny, I have a couple of questions to you as a Purif C/S in the 1990s, please: firstly what were the reason(s) given to you from management for getting people to do the rundown several times? What data was this based on? And secondly what was the average length of time people were on the Purif in the 1990s?
HI Foolproof, I was the Purif C/S (among other areas, such as KTL/LOC, staff, some HGC and all Div 6) at CC Int from 95 or so to 98.
Reasons for someone doing the rundown more than once:
1) Nothing turned on and thus “ran out” on the first Purif
2) Drugs (street or medicinal) since the Purif
3) No evidence of attaining the end phenomena of the Purif
4) Review of the Purif shows things turned on that did not turn off.
Please excuse the Scino-speak, which is the simplest way to explain these things.
Average length on Purif was 3 weeks. Some much more, most around 3 weeks. Very few less than three weeks (now that does not make 3 weeks the average. So average is really the wrong word. Its more like “most often”).
Thanks Sunny. It was not what I thought then (that something weird was going on). I was thinking there was some sort of invented arbitrary as to why it was re-done but from your answers that is not the case. All of the reasons you give would be quite valid for re-doing the Purif. 3 weeks is also correct I would think. The reasons given for people spending months on the Purif at INT base or elsewhere though as I read above would be fishy and probably based on some sort of Executive C/Sing. You don’t need to excuse the Scieno speak with me – I am one and an old-timer.
If Martin Gardner were alive, he’d say “Bingo!”
Great conclusions, in line with what quack pseudo-experts produce.
You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear, is what Scientology looks to me today to be evidence of a sham hype pseudo-religion, as Prof James Beverley has recently been calling Scientology.
Pseudo-religion, pseudo-therapy, pseudo-science.
Martin Garder’s classic book of the 1950s on fads and fallacies of pseudo-science back then, included an LRH and Dianetics chapter.
The Wikipedia article about HOM mentions that some of the incidents came from Nibs after he was given amphetamines by Hubbard.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology:_A_History_of_Man
Beautifully researched post, Mike. I recall taking niacin doses in the late 60s. They were outrageously uncomfortable and, based on that alone, I quit taking them
If you read enough Hubbard, you may begin to doubt whether the “fellow” who had the “full-blown LSD experience” even existed.
I have seen some pretty wild reactions happen to people on the Purif, but I could not say how or WHY they reacted in the first place. One person NEVER sweated in the sauna, despite 4 1/2 hours in it, with plenty of liquids, another whacked out and tried to put his hands on the hot coals (had to be physically restrained), one female striped down to nothing (said it was a drug reaction?). These I remember off the top of my head. There are many, many more.
One female stripped down to nothing? Ha! In our sauna in “the good old days” we were all naked anyway – men and women! Probably why I still remember my time in it with fondness, or something like that anyway.
Foolproof. The purif. at ASHO was a lot of fun in a hysterical sort of way. I tried to read but couldn’t finish a page, tried to draw designs too, nope but we could bat a beach ball around but some people just sat there and didn’t move a muscle even when they got hit on the head by it.
Some usable data: If I were to get a sunburn I would go inside or a shady spot and take 100 or 500 mg. It will usually blow off in about an hour and a half, but I don’t think that it will work on trolls because it’s just a placebo and, well, you know what I’m sayin.
Sounds fun. I vaguely remember lots of inane (drug-induced? – ha!) conversations about the strangest topics one could think of, now that I think of it. It was a bit like being on the set of a Monty Python filming. I don’t recall it as particularly arduous however, uncomfortable at times but not a real problem. But then I was sitting in there with my Senior C/S and a few other well-trained tech terminals. And a few of the pretty young gals from the Org as well! So I didn’t have a “bad trip”. As I remember we engaged in lots of joking and degrading as well! Hoots of laughter! Those were the days!
I think if you could ask the old New World Corps people about their original pilot program on the Purif they would have some stories to tell.
Hi Ron, I wonder if you’re at liberty to explain your meaning when talk about using niacin to “blow off” a sunburn. 1. What does, “blow off” mean? 2. How do YOU think niacin does it?
I promise not to reply at all to your answer.
Blow off is a metaphor for leaving. Sunshine, UV,is more intense at higher altitude, the short wave apparently burns quicker but not as deep as the longer waves at sea level.Arc welders will cook you quicker and deeper. so if I were to get burned I would take 500 mm right away, no mo pain. Having said that I almost never burn anyway.
Carie Elkins, who passed a few years ago, was a long time scientologist, and worked as a reg for CCHR for many years.
Carie had been a diabetic since childhood, and in the 1980s, she did the purif, which resulted in her becoming completely BLIND, due to the protracted heat and possibly other factors.
She was a wonderful soul, and very resilient despite her disabilities, and remained a True Believer until the end.
She worked a grueling schedule for CCHR. Poor blind and diabetic Carie had to keep that money coming in, because, you know, The Psychs. Yes, she allowed herself to be abused, but clearly, any standard of decency would not allow a person under one’s charge to endanger their own health while doing a job.
Gene Denk, who should have known better, was the MD that approved Carie doing the purif. He, of course, was under the pressures a Scn MD experiences, as Mr. Rinder describes.
Denk certainly would have had his ass sued by Carie, if not for the prohibition by the church against scientologists sueing each other.
As I heard it, he “settled” with Carie by buying her a couple of intensives of NOTS. She was still as blind as ever after she did the auditing. Duh.
And so, the “resolution” for Carie also made a tidy sum for the church coffers. Who woulda thunk?
It is a tragic story all around.
“As I heard it, he “settled” with Carie by buying her a couple of intensives of NOTS. She was still as blind as ever after she did the auditing. Duh.”
I don’t recall this. It certainly didn’t come out of our home funds. What you heard may or may not be true.
Hi TheWidowDenk, It is good to,see your post again,but so tragic about the lady who became blind.It hurts my heart to scroll down the list of those I lost and countless others have lost either,physically,mentally or spiritually because of this Cult.Love,Ann.
The person I heard it from, who I regard as trustworthy and of good general comprehension, heard it from Carie herself.
In that you don’t recall it, perhaps he didn’t buy her any NOTS intensives. Of course you’d be in a better position to know first hand if something like that had been bought.
An additional part of this, as I recall, was that Carie and her husband tried unsuccessfully to negotiate for more intensives. (Perhaps that was all that happened–an attempt to hit up Dr. Denk for Carie’s NOTS.)
Well, this is a curiosity to me. We (Dr Denk and I) didn’t personally pay for any of Carie’s auditing. It’s always possible, if she raised issue through Shaw Health Center, that it was taken care of through there. I wouldn’t necessarily have known about that. Roger Hornaday, commenting below, says Carie was OTIII. There’s a jump from there to NOTS. Maybe we just need more data to see what really happened on her cycle. I saw her at ASI once after her sight had been affected. I’m thinking that was 1994 or 1995 or so. She didn’t bring up anything to me at that time, but wouldn’t necessarily have done so. For now, I think that’s all I know.
She should have sued the fuck out of that incompetent pos .
I’m impressed with your extensive research for this in depth article today Mike. Very informative!
Yeah, this is impressive, both in its extent, attention to detail, and power. A damn good post today.
Mike Rinder… You are a smart man. You rock. Please keep doing what you do. — ML, an Anon.
Think of the steel plates in the underground vaults that now have to be re-etched. The horror!
Hi dankoon.A brilliant post! Thank you always,Ann PS I pity the ones that have to re-etch those steel plates!
I wish some ex CST/Archives staffers, or better Shelly Miscavige, would defect and update us interested observers what is the latest in the land of Hubbard’s legacy upkeeping/burying.
That the money flows upwards into Sea Org reserves, and along other lines as royalty payments and license agreement fees, to ASI, and ASI funds the CST/Archives burying/etching, etc of Hubbard’s legacy, this fact of the money going and actually being spent to bury Hubbard’s treasured ideas on metal plates in the underground vaults, is one of the still unapprecaited absurdities of Scientology’s founder’s L. Ron Hubbard’s final wishes being slavishly executied faithfully.
That people’s money ends up being metal plates in underground vaults, I believe easily over 100 million dollars has now been spent on Archvies/CST work.
When I was the computer guy at ASI, Tom Vorm and Russ Bellam of CST came several times with graphs showing the money so far spent, and it totalled roughly 80 million bucks even in 1994ish, so today I’ll be it is easily over 100 mil, of everyone of the dupes’ donations, all heading towards Hubbard’s metal plates in the ground project!
Unbelievably absurd twisted ending and absurdity which is L. Ron Hubbard’s legacy.
🙂
“Hepatotoxicity is less common with regular (NOT non-existent) crystalline niacin or extended release niacin. Most cases are mild and resolve rapidly upon stopping the medication, although in some instances, the injury is acute and severe and progresses to liver failure that is fatal or requires emergency liver transplantation.” http://livertox.nih.gov/Niacin.htm
So, high doses (3,000mg +) of REGULAR B3 can be fatal.
I was just getting ready to post the same link when I saw yours. (http://livertox.nih.gov/Niacin.htm). So besides all that Mike has, add in liver damage.
Yes, the toxicity to the liver ALONE nails the coffin shut on the Purif. All the Ronbots on here arguing with Mike are too far gone IQ wise to understand that.
Yes they are far too gone. Very very sad.
You are so right, John Locke. Those of us who did the Purif and post here that we came out OK and experienced benefits from the Purif are each of us mentally challenged with double digit IQs.
We only say that we were not harmed but actually we were. You’re so right about that.
We say that we benefited but we did not. Right again! The only reason we comment favorably on the Purif is to cover up up what were our actual, horrible experiences on it.
We were all damaged by the Purif and we bear the scars today.
Yet, at the same time, being brainwashed, permanently deluded near-idiots who fear to risk our eternity by saying anything the slightest bit negative about the tech or about L. Ron Hubbard for whom we cherish an obstinate, slavish and unreasoning admiration and loyalty totally devoid of any analytical thought, we try to put a good face on things.
The truth is that we are all suffering horribly because of the Purif.
OK?
COMPLETELY irrelevant Aqua. The point is, that based on current scientific knowledge, the Puir as delivered is not safe. It CAN cause internal injuries and death. If you cannot read and understand the literature advanced herein, you should not be posting about it.
Actually, John, you are now jumping to a point against which I have not been arguing, but that’s OK.
If anything, History of Man contains even more drivel per page than Dianetics (Modern Science …). It makes no sense. It does not fit what we know about evolution at all — not the timelines, not the lineages. For example, clams and humans do not share a common ancestor, no matter how far you go into the past. And Hubbard’s trillions of years is nonsensical in a universe that is probably ~14 billion years old.
Hubbard operated from a painfully stupid (not ignorant, flat out stupid) syllogism of this sort:
— The present comes from the past.
— Stuff happened in the past.
— Therefore everything in the present is a re-enactment or dramatization of the past.
From this, he concludes things like:
— A pain today had to stem from a past pain (engrams)
— A niacin flush had to stem from a past flush (sunburn or radiation)
— Certain planes gave him pause, hence the same plane was used to transport thetans (Xenu story)
— Volcanoes were feared and worshiped, therefore they were where we were all blown up (Xenu story)
— People zone out when watching movies, therefore movies were used on the “whole track” to condition us
— Nibs on amphetamines remembered weird stuff, so that must be the History of Man
— Anything that “indicates” must reflect a past truth
— And on and on and on — with no truth, and provably false in many cases
To be fair, utter tripe is not the possession of Scientology alone. Mormons have magic underwear and believe they will become gods. Young earth creationists believe it all started about 6,000 years ago (there are plants older than that). Islam believes that fresh water passes through salt water unchanged and that Jews are descended from pigs and apes — and that in heaven either 72 ripe dates or ripe virgins await the faithful — and you can guess which interpretation most sexually stunted men want.
In my opinion, Buddhism may be the best effort to date to address consciousness in a sane way. Isn’t it time for humankind to grow up out of the follies of other inane, even insane, belief systems?
Really good comment! BTW, one of the reasons Buddhism seems to be different from other religions is because it isn’t a BELIEF SYSTEM . It’s an INQUIRY SYSTEM. An inquiry system calls for the deconstructing of beliefs not the accepting of them.
Correct Roger — even the Dalai Lama says it is not a religion but a philosophy of life.
AND not based on faith at all. In fact, unless you take everything you might learn and actually deconstruct it, chew on it and see HOW it might be true — all you’ve done is sat on a cushion for however many years you’ve done so.
One of my teachers once said that meditating without examining was akin to throwing a rock into a lake AND expecting something to change.
Nothing changes. The rock gathers moss.
UNLESS you examine WITH meditation what you are studying.
Buddhism borrowed meditation from the Hindus — meditation is not what is unique about Buddhism.
And if you enjoy studying … you can spend a life time studying buddhism and it seems to me – barely scratched the surface.
BUT all along you are gaining more awareness, wisdom, compassion etc
WIndhorse
Par for a quack and crank, per Martin Gardner’s “Fads and Fallacies….” book.
FOTF2012, that was quite an analysis. Plenty to think about.
As a side note here, the study you reference (http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc1311039?af%3DR%26rss%3DcurrentIssue&😉 and highlight is based on a time-release version of niacin which, as this and many other studies show, makes niacin dangerous. It has serious liver toxicity issues not seen in pure forms of the vitamin B3. This is easily verifiable. The Purif, to my knowledge, never used time released versions as the whole point was to get the flush.
That said, I know not about taking extremely high dosages of niacin and the effect on the body after a prolonged period of time. I do know that in moderation and especially in balance with the other B vitamins, niacin is safe. This is easily verifiable as well.
I don’t know what revisions they did on the Purif after these deaths started occurring. I do know though that just from my memory about the oil drink you have daily, focused on oils high in Omega 6, whereas you’d think that since Omega 6 dominates the current food chain, you’d want to perhaps change that to Omega 3’s which people don’t tend to get enough of and which have greater health benefits – all this data probably unknown to Hubbard when he developed the Purif and/or the Omega 6 oils were and are dirt cheap and likely the Omega 3’s were expensive back then (as some still are today).
The key is, take niacin in balance with the other B vitamins, and preferably a multi-vitamin, don’t take insane dosages. Don’t take it on an empty stomach, it can irritate the lining, and this is probably bad especially for certain “addicts” that consumed oral drugs/painkillers as their stomachs and intestines are likely compromised from drug use. And also that high dosages of niacin competes with uric acid secretion which means if you have gout, it can bring on an attack.
Everything above can easily be verified in numerous studies on the subject.
Thank you for the addition of intelligent information.
Are there any studies of NON-time release niacin? You say it is known to be safe. Anecdotally? I had understood (perhaps incorrectly) that this is the FIRST long-term fully powered study of ANY form of Niacin?
What levels of niacin are safe ie what is the definition of “in moderation”? Do you have any concrete data on this?
I am not attempting to be sensationalist, I feel it is important that if there is scientific evidence that there is danger here that it be made known and I am doing my best to do that. Additional information to make it more accurate would be much appreciated and I will modify the posting accordingly.
Mike this is one of your best articles and I hope it get re-tweeted and picked up in other venues so that lives can be saved. Thank you for your research and care and time.
Well, for long long time – even way before my scientology training and when I was young and living in Europe – I had a relative firm standing policy — “if the FDA or any similar medical authority in the world approves a drug/teratment I stay away form it as much as possible and if they disapprove it I search for it and even cross boarders to get it ”
It worked well for me and for many people I I know and perhaps even suggest to do so :)))
Now, about 2 years ago I added Marty Ruthbun to that list and about a good halve a year ago you too made the cut :)))
Really, you are ( most likely always have been) too smart for your own good .
And for the rest of you guys commenting on this blog – “if I could feel sorry I would ” but hey, I got to have some shortcomings .
Anyhow, insanity is definitely present if in order to stop/criticize a few bad things ( very bad things) such as Mr. Mismanagement and his minions totally perfecting the tech – (of which YOU MIKE have been part even tough ONLY as a a broken piece for long long time ) – EVERYTHING becomes bad despite that most of you had real (VERY REAL ) life improvements from those actions.
But thanks anyhow, now I know to increase my daily dose of niacin which I never really stopped after my purif which did wonders for me.
After all, two of the biggest indicators – Mike Rinder and the medical establishment clearly and un-mistakenly point in the direction of huge benefits.
Thanks indeed 🙂
Helmut
You wasted your precious time to make this comment? Surely it is a distraction from you salvaging this sector of the universe?
If this really is your attitude about medical matters, that is your prerogative. Just as long as you don’t try to convince anyone to follow along with you and suffer the consequences of failing to follow proven medical advice.
You know the government bans LSD and meth too. Perhaps that is a good justification for taking it?
If this posting was “too smart for my own good” — I plead guilty. And if by being too smart for my own good it results in one person not being harmed, then a bar or two from someone like you is a pretty small price to pay.
Helmut, you’re the type of person who should avoid enemas because they’d cause you brain damage.
Over the top Espi!!!! 🙂
“…should avoid enemas because they’d cause you brain damage.”
Wow, Espi, that explains a lot for me! No wonder I’m a bit dum, errrrrr, ahhhh…I mean dumb.
Yep, Esp should know, because enemas are his main area of expertise.
Helmut, the FDA has banned the use of potassium cyanide for the treatment of aches and pains. Next time you feel a pain, take your own advice you wrote on this blog..
Yep …take Espi’s advice and go for a coffee and pepper enema.
Scheesch Helmut, wake the fuck up buddy!
Pepper enemas are my favorite, Coop! I like the ‘kick’ I get from it.
And, Helmut, REALLY? Maybe you should stop drinking the Kool-Aid.
Good joke!
Nice comment Helmut.
We all were in one way or another predisposed to Hubbard’s ideas (prejudices and crank ideas are how I view his ideas mainly today), or like many people, their parents or family or friends guided them into Hubbard’s world of what I believe are at best placebo “wins”.
I’d be curious Helmut how you understood the final 3 pages of Lawrence Wright’s book, and did you believe LRH’s final comments to Sarge Steven Pfauth?
Helmut, did you ever read all of the “Running Program” advices, particularly the one about the ancient OTs doing their own therapeutic running program circling objects in outer space?
I would not know what one of your suggestions has to do with my comment on Niacin, and on the general (not absolute of course, as my wording well implied) scientific research and following approval the FDAA gives drug and food items.
My total certainty of the miss-use and outright deception of this department actually DOES kill people and or puts them in continuous “need ” for MORE medication has NOTHING to do with my scientology training. Nothing.
I well stated that I had this knowledge way before I ever knew scientology, which I found NOT via family or so ,but at the age of 35 .
I also never have been reading ANY of the books by any of the people you mentioned.
I would NOT know why I should.
And I also do NOT and never did even while I was fully in and putting 100’s of people on the bridge on a yearly sometimes monthly basis, follow all of LRH the way he wrote it .
I do NOT have real gurus or people I follow – not even LRH. I ALWAYS used what I liked and altered it the way I liked if I felt like altering it for the better!
The medical establishment (manly pharmaceutical , but also MD’s who are properly the most unable , naive, brainwashed and right down unethical people from any profession as a whole ) would be broke if they would apply ALL there is available but has NO FDA approval and or is even fought.
Doc (the MD section) by the way are the equal ant of a Kool-Aid drinking scientologist. They are in a trap they can’t escape so they start justifying. Well the justifying happens with ones who are aware enough to realize what’s happening, but most have been too dump from the day they applied to med school to cog – they actually think their tech is good.
There is no money for big pharma in over the counter niacin, and any and all vitamins or herbs, or, or, or .
The thing with Marty, Mike, and most of you guys writing on this blog and before on Marty’s (who’s demise I predict on his own blog) is NOT about Niacin , but about the fact you are insane as you find fault with EVERUTHING -usually as insignificant as spelling :)))
You guys talk like you know something about everything after some chap like Mike puts it in your ears.
You sell out your grand mother who raised you.
Meaning everything Ron did and every service you did is now a scam and all your wins have now a DIFFERENT source.
You guys really are to pathetic to be talked to , but he – I have lots of time as I am well in phace two for long time, so I enjoy playing cat and mouse with you, and maybe, -maybe I even save a sole by making him/her realizing that he/she DID have real life improvements on not only one but a serious of services.
And if all SS you have written actually have been an action of being scared for being banned from scn then, well – then you are even worst of than I thought.
Probably as bad as Marty who had to endure all this pain and out tech because it is the ONLY way to reach total freedom :)))
Ron clearly said we should own the tech- he was source of providing it – we are source of applying it — which is why I always applied in MY way.
So, did I say it? Did I say that you guys on the blog , most of the writing one’s anyhow have snapped in the exact opposed of “EVERYTHING IS WRONG AND A SCAM” compared to the rest who believes EVERYTHING is good .
Can you see that? Most likely not as both camps have a shallow understanding of the tech – not just Ron’s but as said in another way : ” supper smart on un-important things which change nothing hardly ever and supper stupid on the big picture.
Guys, also stop thinking that you have a Free zone group which is bigger stronger and smarter than the in group!
It’s laughable at best :)))
So, guys, wake up and recover your past wins by first acknowledging them and then move on by applying what you learned and by restudying some of it and by getting in session with some auditors of which there are quite a few – thanks god .
Helping some other people with what you know.
No need to send them anywhere just DO the helping to whatever level you think you can.
And remember no church to look over your back and scold you if you apply something “wrong” .
And the C/S for Mike: turn yourself in to the nearest doc and get any and all vaccination shots he has to offer and stop vitamin C or any supplement you might be taking as there surly are negative or at least “don’t do any good” reports out there in one of those esteemed medical journals, which set the tone for health in a country of overweight, over medicated people and ranking at about # 40 in health in the world :))))
And ohh –take daily aspirin for thinning you blood and lots of fluoride water, toothpaste etc. It’s fully approved and recommended by all those smart people you so like –especially if they say something which could put fire (material ) for your cause –whatever that might be .
Helmut
PS;
“Placebo wins” are wins and really are just a prove of mind over matter ☺)
Having highly improved health, marriage, business/money, general happiness can come as much as a placebo as you want – as anecdotal as you want –I and thousands and thousands of people who got help this placebo way in one way or another( LRH or otherwise) don’t give a dam what all “you too smart for your own good people” parrot after the “authorities” who use this term or the definition of to be able to “protect” their business with free reigns !! And I am sure you too had wins (scn or not) which ARE placebo or anecdotal and you wont which them away. Do you?
I put this comment up here, and will not allow anyone else to respond to it, only so people can read it and make up their own mind about whether your views should be supported, or if you are simply a crackpot. For someone who accuses others of “knowing it all” you sure have an odd way of presenting yourself.
Awesome, Mike. You did the right thing, this argument can go on forever.
Michael Winters, “At high doses niacin can be toxic. You should not take doses higher than the Recommended Daily Allowance (RDA).” https://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/vitamin-b3-niacin
The doses of B3 (niacin) on the purif ARE considered high. THEREFORE, that can be toxic!
Okay, if you’re so knowledgeable, explain the difference between Omega-3 and Omega-6 “oils” (you’re already wrong by calling them oils in the first place). I do know the difference thanks to being in the food industry for over a quarter century. No search engines or any other help allowed. Explain the difference. I bet you can’t.
Esi, afterwards can you explain it to me? And, what the upshot is vis-a-vis human consumption needs.
tks
Omega-6 and Omega-3 are naming conventions for unsaturated fatty acids (fatty acids which contain double carbon-carbon bonds) An oil is made of triglycerides – a combination of three fatty acid chains bonded on a glycerol molecule.
“Omega” says that the first double bond is on the N-th number carbon from the tip of the chain. So Omega-3 have their first double bond on the third carbon from the tip.
Some Omega-6 and Omega-3 fatty acids are essential, which means you need them and cannot synthesize them. However, it is not good for health to consume too high a ratio of Omega-6 to Omega-3 fatty acids. The ideal ratio is around 5 to 1 Omega-6 to Omega-3, but in certain diets, that ratio can be up to 20 to 1.
Too high a ratio of Omega-6 to Omega-3 has been correlated with inflammation and certain cancers.
Thanks kemist. It was the data contained in your last two paragraphs that I lacked.
“I do know that in moderation and especially in balance with the other B vitamins, niacin is safe.”
And how do you know this? Please cite references (as Mr. Rinder did), preferably peer-reviewed scientific studies (as Mr. Rinder did). Anecdotal evidence is not reliable in a case like this.
Remember, Mr. Winters, despite what LRH said, what is true for you is NOT necessarily true.
AWYL, by the same token, what is false for you is not necessarily false.
Modus tollens doesn’t work that way. You are a fail at symbolic logic, as you are at being a Scientology defender.
This part at least is horse manure. As a long term user of high dosages of prescription painkillers, I’ve done a lot of research on the effects of painkillers. This can only happen IF YOU DON’T EAT for long periods of time. Really long.
Don’t know about the rest, it wasn’t may area of interest.
“The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.” ― Martin Luther King
I would add that the arc of reason bends toward truth.
Both arcs point away from Scientology.
Hi FOTF2012, Both your posts today were really good,the last one so indicated for me.Thank you.Always Ann.
FOTF2012, Looking at history, arcs generally bend toward circles, given time. (Politically correct bandwagons can be dangerous, as they muffle critical thinking.)
Arcs more often bend toward ellipses, hyperbolae, and parabolae. Under only one specific set of conditions does an arc bend toward a circle. Source: me, an ex-geometry teacher.
Keep whistling in the dark and ignoring the obvious.
What goes around, comes around, Esp. Aside from Ad Hominem , what’s you point? (I can understand why you are an ex.)
I’m not an Ex. I’m a Never-In.
I just like disproving every single point you try to make using your own words against you. Stop defending L. Fraud, even in oblique ways, and I’ll stop doing that. It’s really quite simple. Open your mind.
Ex = “ex-geometry teacher”.
Do you always evade the argument instead of disproving it?
When I was a geometry teacher, DM was still trying to take over the cult. Life took me in a different direction. Fortunately, it took me far away from Scientology.
Mike, I am so glad you raised this very important issue. I did my first purif when it was released in 1979 (all GO staff were first “guinea pigs” after the original sweat pgm was replaced by the Purif Pilot). I was 16 years old, and probably not too much harm done as I was young & strong in constitution at that time.
In 1994 I was told I had to re-do the purif which I reluctantly agreed to, and they had me on 10,000 i.u Niacin for over two weeks before allowing me to attest. It was gruelling and I hated every second. Within a month I landed up in hospital with kidney stones and was asked by the urologist if I had been consuming large doses of calcium (DUH).
From that point onwards my health took a turn for the worse. I had always been healthy and now I was suffering from severe, debilitating and strange inexplicable physical complaints – from leaky gut, IBS and going downhill from there – you name it, I had it. Migraine headaches which I had NEVER experienced before, constant elevated white cell counts indicating my body was “fighting something which couldn’t be determined”, elevated liver enzymes and other symptoms mimicking or suggesting heavy metal or some other kind of poisoning. I even started getting panic attacks (I was always a laid back, chilled out person able to handle very high randomity levels calmly). Panic “disorder” – supposed to be a “mental issue” and reason to undeclare me Clear yet again – but recent research suggests these attacks are often caused by underlying physiological issues and imbalances in the body. In 2002 it was discovered I had pretty severe liver damage and I am utterly convinced it was the HUGE doses of Niacin and synthetic vitamins I was given on the purif.
And so it went for more than 2 decades, ultimately resulting in a diagnosis of Rheumatoid Arthritis in 2014. I was under the constant care of a SCN doctor & other specialists for many years and they were all baffled with my case.
In 2008 I was yet again C/S’d for the purif and, aware of the liver issue and concerned about the impact of this on my health, I went along to the church-appointed doctor just for kicks to see what he said. He was utterly defunct in his examination of me (didn’t even ask if I had any ailments or chronic conditions) and gave me a clean bill of health. I was horrified and wrote this up to the C/S, suggesting that he and the church were putting people’s lives at risk. (My report was totally ignored). I then went to my SCN doctor and he hit the roof – he absolutely FORBADE the C/S from allowing me anywhere near a purif. Wise man – and of course, now declared.
Aside from the above, what is REALLY worrying is the recent number of articles and pictures I have seen of children (some under 10 years of age) proudly holding their Purif certs! I am horrified at this and I believe that parents and the church are playing a very dangerous and irresponsible game with their children’s future health.
I wish to God that someone with serious clout would see to it that this chicanery is stopped dead in its tracks. Living with a debilitating illness is not funny – and very often, the damage only becomes apparent years later thus masking the fact that the Purif could well have been the cause. How many sick OTs & other SCNs are walking around with health problems as a result of this?
Hi Shelley, Your post was just tremendous. I feel for you and want to say you are very very strong and brave.Those of us who got inexplicable medical conditions no matter how short or long we were in must continue to beat the drum no matter how much it hurts.You post made me recall before I got the black side of cos in Sea Org I finally had an auditor who was tremendous Class 8 OT up there,a long time ago now,he worked with me to clean up messes done by previous auditors regarding my PC stuff and worked with a great C/S from Flag who came to Asho.As a result I charged right on thru XDN and was going on to Power when he was RPFed for getting kidney stones.Turned out he was doing The Sweat Program and was told to take tons of niacin.Broke my heart because after he was gone Intel took over all that.I was put on the sweat more than once.The second time I was told to take niacin but I did not do it. Felt with everything else going on that was not a good idea.Managed to evade those that pushed it heavily too.So l salute you and really good to read your post.Love, Ann.
Thanks Anne – your acks are always welcome, and thanks for sharing your experience too. Good on you for sticking to your guns & not taking the Niacin. Very interesting re your auditor getting kidney stones – and then being RPF’d for it – downright criminal behaviour from the church. Makes my blood boil, but very thankful for this forum where we can share and offload 🙂
Wait…..what? Some auditor got a kidney stone? And got RPF’d for it? I’m so very glad that I’m out! I passed my 20th kidney stone yesterday. My stones started in the mid 80s. I’ve had so many they hardly bother me anymore. I named them all Rocky 1 thru 20.
Hi OSD, Naming your kidney stones Rockies is simply the best! Yes with all the auditors that got frustrated with me the one that got the RPF for kidney stones was my very favorite.So sad.But then Ron would have had my hide if I had stayed in with all the medical dragons I have now,and slay daily.Love,Ann.
OSD, even if you were a HUubbard apologist I’d give you a pass for naming your kidney stones like that!
Glad they’re not hurting you too much!
Thanks for the smile!
My urethra tube is so enlarged from all the stones I’ve passed, i barely feel it when a stone pops out.
I had 9 bladder stones (15mm on average) laser blasted out at the Va. Wearing a catheter for a week was—-. I think that a steady diet of calmag may have had something to do with it. I was surprised to lean that there are dozens of other stones one can get from even veggies, oxalic acid for example.
You’ve got the f…ing kidding me! RPF’d for kidney stones?!! Goodness me… what’s next, declared for having a cold or for study phenomena outside a course room?
Hi I Yawnalot, Yes that is absolutely what happened to a great auditor I had at Asho Fwhen all others were so frustrated with me. The C/S got punished too can’t recall his name either. This was in 1977 and a certain person at GO/ Intel had me in his sights for a long time. When he finally set up shop in the old bail bonds building not far from Asho on Temple St, he had everything he needed including me to work his particular black whatever on.A freaky,incredible time. Love,Ann.
I yawn, they’re weren’t being cause over MEST! That’s a high crime! That person was lucky she wasn’t sent to the RPF’s RPF! I mean, c’mon! It’s only a tiny rock!!!
Shelley, thank you for your history of what happened to you on two Purifs. It is horrible what happened to you. Anywhere else this would be stopped by the FDA, but since it is a CHURCH, they can harm people an no one can stop it. My blood boils too just reading it. I know a KA drinker who was redoing her Purif for the 2nd or 3rd time recently when all were ordered back on the Purif. She had bad reactions, probably to the Niacin, and developed a terrible itching rash all over her body that she spent tons of money and time to try to cure. She went from doctor to doctor, told her CS etc. Finally the CS kicked her off the Purif which is good. But she still has the itchy rash and has to take cortisone shots for it, and that in and of itself is risky. It all came from that re-do of the Purif.
To much of anything can Kill you.
Carrie Alkins did the Purif and went blind in both eyes.
Niacin was determined to be the culprit.
After FLAG auditing on an OT 8 meter ( in a Quantum case)she died within a few months.
Carrie was a dedicated Kool aide drinker to the end, above everything it was the Kool aide
that did her in.
Jose, that’s how Carrie became blind!? OMG. I also didn’t know that she passed away. I remember when a person was trying to audit her on Ad courses as she was blind. She was a very nice person but going on with killology after being blinded by it DOES indicate a Kool aide drinker.
I was friends with Carrie when she went blind. She was diabetic and the capillaries in her eyes ruptured. Niacin was the culprit indeed. Her father took her to a famous surgeon in Switzerland who was able to restore her sight enough that she didn’t walk into walls. She was OTIII at the time. Many of her sci-fi friends abandoned her claiming she was PTS. I left LA shortly after and didn’t know she had passed. She was a wonderful person, gentle and kind.
I remember Carrie as an OT, although I didn’t know her well personally. I recall she was trying to receive auditing but was always having trouble with being meterable/sessionable due to the Diabetes disease process, which it appeared in her case was severe. She was a very nice person and you could see that she was physically unwell. Advanced Diabetes can cause diabetic retinopathy but still, I can’t imagine that she would have been able to do the Purif. This is really sad to hear that it caused her more suffering. RIP Carrie.
Carrie’s loss of vision was instant due to the niacin. Why would you remember to me Carrie’s poor health? It’s as though you’re trying to diminish her and make excuses for the purif. You weren’t one of those who disconnected from her are you? Hmmmm?
No way Roger, you have misread. I was auditing with Carrie and recall her difficulties trying to get help though auditing. I don’t think anyone with a chronic disease like Diabetes should even be allowed to do the Purif period. I became very ill myself doing the purif with colitis and bleeding, and this went on off and on for several years after doing it. I would never do it again or recommend it to anyone. And just so you know, I have never disconnected from anyone.
Ever hit the “send” button and say “whoops”? That was me with my comment to you. I see your point. Box of chocolates if I offended you. 🙂
No worries and no chocolates Roger. Thanks for the offer though 🙂
Hi Pepper, As I was reading your interesting post another medical dragon I slay every day is non insulin type 2 Diabetes.Diagnosed 8 years ago with absolutely no history of it in my family the docs say I am a anomaly because I am skinny minny and they cannot explain it.However the last three years I have kept it under control without Metformin so that is good.Imagine if I had to have done what Mike did running in that sun.I would have,melted, fainted and if I had that Niacin my A1C #s would have killed me.Always like yout posts.Love,Ann.
Hi Ann, I’m happy to know you’re doing well and a belated thanks for all the times you wished my Mom well. A fellow cancer survivor like yourself. You’re both very brave and strong women. Stay well and hugs!
Hi Pepper,You brought sunshine to my morning,thank you.I send big hugs back to you and your Mom,You are both sweet and kind.Love your posts XO Ann.
I am gobsmacked that someone with diabetes was allowed onto the Purif, and Pepper, you, with colitis and bleeding, were OK’d to do it. No one who is either acutely or chronically ill in any way should be allowed to do this program!
I am not chronically ill and never have been. I have no drug or alcohol history either. I developed intestinal bleeding and colitis as a direct result of taking the Niacin on the purif. I am a healthy, normal adult who rarely gets sick and am physically active. My problems with this have passed; it took some time, but I have recovered.
I never said in my post that I was let on the Purif with colitis. I said that I became (acutely) ill with it and bleeding. Huge difference.
Pepper, thank you. I stand corrected on the Niacin being the cause of your developing intestinal bleeding and and becoming acutely ill with colitis while on the Purif.
No problem Aquamarine. I’m just trying to keep it ‘on point.’ This article brought out a lot of emotions all around I would say.
Always nice to hear from you 🙂
And who could say scientology isn’t a serious subject? It’s studied and compared to all sorts of research, bogus and legitimate alike.
However, it has more lies in it than a tournament of golf, and just as many holes in it.
I’m glad I was never smart enough to ever trust what others believed in and came to logical conclusion myself I didn’t have to trust it on faith alone. It’s unworkability eventually showed me the door, albeit it took some time and lots of $.
I’m also glad I never kept a copy of my success stories, I feel bad enough as it is, thank God for memory loss!
Experience is a double edge sword but I do know what I know now and don’t need help believing something because it makes others like and accept me. Scientology is a suckers game of pseudo relationships where loyalty is never what you hope it is but instead runs on fear of rejection alone. Gordon Gekko was right if he was referring to scientology, “if you want a friend get a dog.”
It costs a hell of lot for a scientologists 5 minutes of admiration… yep, it’s a serious subject alright and the SO should be ashamed of itself.
As you said, if this posting can save one life… Thanks Mike.
“But on the other hand, the people in this test were being given 1500-2000mg of niacin daily”
This one sentence exposes the main problem as far as I am concerned. That is too much niacin to start someone out on. The Purif starts at 100mg and ramps up incrementally from there reaching 5000mg yes but only after a pretty long runway.
Given the high dosages that were be given (and the reactions it must stir up in the body) it’s no wonder this drug was given such a bad reviews.
I thought the Purifs I did were great and would do another if I thought I needed one.
That is what you took away from this” That they were taking too high doses at 1500-2000mg and this is the “problem.”
Don’t be silly.
1. You have no idea whether they “ramped up” to that dose, do you? You just seized on that statement of mine but didn’t bother to read the facts.
2. But even so, this drug does NOT cause flushing because it includes a vacillatory dilator.
3. Even if you did “ramp up” the issue is the effects that niacin has on the body that are far more significant than skin flushes. The study is about the LONG term effects of taking niacin, not the short term effects of taking too high a dose too quickly.
Unfortunately, your comment illustrates the EXACT PROBLEM — and why scientology will ignore this study. You seize on something that you think is “wrong”, without any data to support it and based on your “knowledge” of niacin from “doing a successful purif” and you reject everything that is being pointed out about the danger. Who says it has ANY negative long term effects to not “gradiently increase” the dose of niacin? Like you build up a resistance to it or something? Like it’s something the body needs to overcome like a virus?
This is a classic “true believer” type response to this sort of information.
And it is what I fear the response will be from every “good scientologist” who knows they must “defend the tech” and “defend their wins” no matter WHAT evidence is put before them. Leap to some unfounded conclusion that justifies ignoring the data. It’s like they do with information from “critics.” “We know he is ____, so we don’t need to pay any attention to any information that comes from him.”
Very sad.
Sad.
Precisely. Mike – so spot on and thank you for this entire post. At the Int Base, they had me on that damn Purif for 8 months – almost the entire time on 5000mg of Niacin. Did physical damage. Two independent doctors on 2 different sides of the country suggested suing scientology for medical malpractice.
Hi Amy Scobee,It is a pleasure to meet you. Thank you for your dynamite post.t do not know how or why I did not take niacin many moons ago when I did the sweat program for months.I am just glad that bullet went past me.Two cancers are enough as it is.Always, Ann.
Amy Scobee can I get your autograph? 🙂
Now that is an idea.
Medical malpractice suits seem like a worthwhile form of justice to counter this pseudo-“Tech”.
(((hugs Amy)))
I personally saw a person die from the Purif in the 90s. A Purif done at a CL V Org. And I personally saw OSA staff cover it up and wait for the statute of limitations to run out, to protect the church.
Months afterwards I was told by a Snr Sea Ogre Exec who had had various posts in OSA and the GO that there had been a number of internal Scn Purif deaths prior to that. So it’s not just Narconon, either.
It’s a medical treatment, with medical consequences. It kills people. It always has. This Niacin research makes me think back and wonder if it’s misuse was part of the result I was observing.
Hi Sammy.Good to meet you.Thank you for this post.I now know why I did not take niacin when I was put on the sweat program for months by GO/Intel in the long ago days of 77 going into 78.I just did not like the idea.I am so sorry about those that were and perhaps will be lost because of all this.You have validated for me that I am not crazy and did not make all my Intel experience up.It was real and it was/is with OSA still just as dangerous.Always, Ann.
KFrancis, I’ll put you down for a future Darwin Award.
I really appreciated Mike’s response citing the facts. Personal attacks are just a way to deal with ones own emotions. As misguided and in the dark some believers are and as frustrating it is to look at this nightmarish insane way of thinking, one should think twice about any personal insult.
Gerhard you’re committing my favorite logical fallacy: the appeal to reason! (joking) I would never be able to sleep at night if I made that Darwin joke-insult to somebody but I sure can sleep if John makes it! Like a baby!
And the SS Mesothelioma was a perfectly healthy environment because L. Fraud never said anything about blue asbestos.
Keep whistling in the dark. When you’re diagnosed with liver cancer, maybe then you’ll change your mind.
Hi Espiando, Well said,well said indeed.Always Ann.
Mike I will just say, yes, I probably do fall closer to the side of a “true believer” if we have to pick sides. The many, many gains I made in auditing and training lead me here. I participated in Scientology on my own determinism and I am to this day participating. My experience was mostly good when I was left alone by the IAS and other arms of the church looking for money. So you can understand I’m sure why I am not that willing to throw the whole of the technology under the bus.
Mike in my mind you were victimized by Dave’s version of Scientology. Captured and held in a prison and put on a diet of slop I am not at all surprised you fall closer to a “non-believer” at this point. Who could expect you believe if you had it so bad that you had to escape? Who could expect you to believe given your family was removed from you by force. My point is we that were involved with the same church but came away from it with to extremely different experiences.
Dave’s an ass but just because he is doesn’t mean he doesn’t have his hands on some very workable materials. I can’t get on board that the Purif, Cause Resurgence RD, Super Power and the OT Levels are all just junk (A general theme over the months by many here) and that there are no real gains to be made and that it is all just subjective. Dave is the primary piece of junk and his actions have lead a good many people to believe that it is all junk as consequence.
Yes, I know this is far from the niacin topic you lead off with.
Well, the problem is that this is another trait of those who I categorize as “true believers” — they have an evaluation for everyone who isn’t. “You had bad tech applied to you”, “you have wrong items”, “you are PTS”, “you have unhandled OWs” and many more. Because these are the explanations used to explain things when scientology doesn’t work. But these pronouncements are not based on knowing anything. I was in scientology LONG before David Miscavige came around and VERY long before he had any control over “the tech.”
You seem to assume I think everything about scientology is wrong or bad. I don’t. My beef is primarily with the abuses perpetrated in order to “protect it.” And things that are contained in it which are clearly not true but are foisted off onto people as if they are.
Very good comment and philosophy Mike, I concur. Scientology technology cannot work on itself as I guess its survival runs parallel with everything else trying to survive – it finds a way of doing it or otherwise it perishes or gets changed into something else, and that isn’t an option for a mindset of having the “only standard solution for life’s troubles.”
But the damn gall of the card carrying scientologist to label everything but their own blindness to the harm they cause others is a true crime of magnitude and stupidity. Waking up for a hard liner would be a death sentence self imposed, those ones will go the grave as right as rain, disappointed but as right as rain.
“My beef is primarily with the abuses perpetrated in order to “protect it”. And things contained in it which are clearly not true but are foisted off on people as if they are”.
I am on that same page with you, Mike, and on principal I would be on that page concering any philosophical or religious practice barring those that hurt or kill people or animals.
I have relatives who are Evangelical Christians. I think what they believe is completely wacky and unhelpful but it makes them happy and they are good,law abiding people who would not, for example, drive past you if they passed you stranded on the road in the middle of the night. Yes, they have wacky ideas about how anything good that you do is because you’re making your soul a temple for Jesus or something – I mean, its not YOU being good, its you letting JESUS “in” and HIM being good – anyway, its kind of annoying and stupid to me, but these people, if you were their neighbor, and you were hungry, they’d cook you food and bring it to you and they wouldn’t ask anything in return. They believe and LIVE, “You are your brother’s keeper”.
When they preach to me about original sin I feel like blasting them away with sarcasm but I’ve learned to control myself. If they believe that everything in the Bible is true because God wrote it, well, so be it. They have the right to believe that.
They’re not hurting anyone and they’re doing good for people when they are able.
If one believes that something or someone can be all bad, then it follows that one must also believe that someone or something can be all good!
Well, thank you for allowing me to make this long-winded comment. I’m not even sure what point I made or if I even made one at all.
Hey KFrancis,
Have you completed all of your GAT II training lineup? How were the wins?
William Griffith Wilson, one of the co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous, was also big on niacin therapy as a treatment for alcohol addiction:
http://vitaminb-3therapy.blogspot.com/
Wow, great find. Probably influenced Hubbard. Seems to have been somewhat prevalent think in the 60s and 70s.
I’m delighted that anyone who was an alcoholic is successfully “treated” —
BUT to be clear — having studied alcoholism rather extensively a few years ago, in the failed attempt to help a friend —
AA is only effective in approximately 1/4th of those who seek AA as a way to help.
So — 1 out of 4 isn’t bad — it just cannot be called a CURE.
A cure — cures.
Windhorse
I am trying to help a friend with alcoholism, Windhorse. Is there a treatment you can recommend based on your research? If so please share.
Adele Davis, in “Let’s Eat Right To Keep Fit” and “Let’s Get Well” cites medical studies done with niacin therapy to cure schizophrenia or actually, maybe it was pernicious anemia, another mental illness. I’m going to check on this as I have both books.
Yeah, written in the 1950’s or 1960’s. As I said in my original post. Everyone thought this was safe until this study showed otherwise…. And maybe it does cure some things or help relieve them. But people are not going onto the Purif to cure schizophrenia.
“But people are not going onto the Purif to cure schizophrenia.” That’s for sure, Mike. I only mentioned this to give an example of how Niacin has been studied clinically.
Ok, I checked, and the studies were done on curing pellegra, which makes sense as a niacin deficiency causes pellagra.
Yes , she did, And there is also ample evidence as to the need to correctly balance vits with others , otherwise an artificial deficiency is created showing up as many symptoms. The quote study was about niacin intake w/out any other vits being taken to back it up. Look on ANY nutrition medical text-book , and you’ll see my point. The late Adelle Davis also covered that in great detail. But I guess that leaving vital data out is more important than being balanced about all this.
Adelle Davis has a story of her own when it comes to research.
http://www.quackwatch.com/04ConsumerEducation/davis.html
I’ve got into the habit of double checking everything that I first heard about in Scn context or from a Scientologist.
Davis was another quack who believed in, and promoted barley water for infants.
Artoo45, when people need to dismiss modern science in order to cling to the notions they’ve hitched their wagon to, it’s often necessary to reach back into history for famous, albeit discredited, names to use as some kind authoritarian back-up. Ironically such people, creationists for instance, rant about corrupted science yet never fail to to site a quasi-scientific source no matter how obscure, if it seems to support their agenda.
Hi Artoo45,Good to meet you.Yes Adele Davis did promote barley water for infants.My first months in Sea Org 74 that was what I was told and her book was allowed to be read one of the few that were,not by Ron then.My late mother had a dog eared copy that she used in the late fifties early sixties.She certainly did not do the barley water thing with her kids,but I do recall she did homemade whole grain breads from the book.Although not much else.No wonder the old Children’s Org in LA,had so many many swarms of fruit flys dead and living when the only time I was there cleaning it all day with Asho F.That Org was simply atrocious.My best,Ann.
I’ve read all of Adele Davis’s books, all 4 of them, and nowhere in any of her books did I ever read that she promoted giving barley water to infants. She very strongly promoted breast feeding infants if at all possible. She was very big on breast feeding. Second to that, if a mother had to bottle feed, Davis promoted a baby formula which would have brewers yeast in it. Davis was very big on brewers yeast as a nutritional supplement for everyone, not only babies. Its possible you’re confusing brewers yeast with barley water.
Hi Aquamarine, Thank you for your post about Adele Davis.My old brain does not always fire out the correct info.What I meant to say in SO all the babies got barley water some until they were almost three.Because Adele’s book was pushed by Ron, that and big league sales,I thought she had advocated it as well.Do you know where the barley water came from.Was it Ron?Always, Ann.
While it is well known that the criminal organisation known as the “church” of $cientology does medically life threatening things through ignorance (read the declaration of Lawrence Woodcraft), I do wonder about the report that Captain David “he is NOT isnane!” Miscavige had people at Gold Base pucnished by leaving them on the 5000mg-Niacin-a-day sooper “purif” for months and moths and moths (best comment of the day, by Matt Pesch on the Underground Bunker – http://tonyortega.org/2015/09/10/another-trial-ordered-against-narconon-as-scientology-derail-attempt-mostly-fails/comment-page-1/). Could this be slow poisoning, pure and simple?
Just an RRRRRRRRRRRRRR- factor, it’s national talk like a pirate day. Since the real pirates don’t have a blog, I’ll report it here. Henry
Arrrrrrrggggg, Henry! And I be thankin’ ya for the heads up, you scurvy dog…..
The current Pirates of the Carribean are the Regges on the MV Mesothelioma….blue asbestos anyone?
Hi GTBO, Good post.I think I will pass on that Blue Abestos, I already paid dearly for my four year dose.Thanks Ron for saying all is safe because such a carcinogen does not exist. Love,Ann.
Hi Ann
I did my share of time on the rustbucket. As the expression goes ” you can’t polish a turd”. They can paint it as many times as they want, it’s still a floating turd.
Always love your posts
GTBO
Hi GOTBO, Your post is the best! Congratulations in being in The On the Ships Club! I love the picture of polishing a turd even with a new coat of paint on it curtesy of the SO slaves.Thank you so much I always love your posts every time.Love,Ann.
I just keep thinking about that couple who had their ten-year-old son do the Putrif and bragged about it in a Thursday Funnies pimp piece, and Thinus Jacobsz, the teenage Qualifucations Sec (his spelling) at Pretoria Idle Morgue, who did two Putrifs by the time he was seventeen. Given the evidence, how is this not child abuse? How is this not parents putting children in danger? The defenders aren’t out in force yet, but let me counter them: just because the Putrif didn’t apparently harm you doesn’t mean that it didn’t harm them.
By the way, no, the hydrogens are not included in the ball model above. That’s traditional in organic chemistry unless the hydrogens are pertinent to the shape of the molecule. Our chemists here can verify that. So don’t say that Mike pulled the “wrong” graphic.
I am sure that you saw David Love’s book released.. http://www.wireservice.ca/index.php?module=News&func=display&sid=17014
Thank you – bought it!
On the History of Man, by the time I got round to studying this (a book I had always thought complete BS) I was no longer prepared to go into my local org and so read it at home – with a mug of coffee to keep me awake, my own style of Study Tech. When I got to The Glare, I began to seriously wonder. LRH said dogs and other pets couldn’t take being glared at because of this implant. My Alsatian was relaxing a couple of metres from me, so I did a very simple test. I glared at him. He didn’t care a crap. My cats don’t either – they just glare back, and pretty damn menacingly too!
:)You were out glared!
Hi dr. mac, I love your post.My babies are mini hot dogs dachshunds and Siamese inside cats.They glare even better than me and I do not have to pay for that pleasure when they do so.Always,Ann.
dr mac, cats don’t care how you look at them. They already know that they’re superior to you. In their cat brains they’re thinking, “WTF are you staring at, asshole? Go get me some food. NOW!”
And you better comply……
Hi OSD, And I’ll raise you three ear splitting Siamese Meows! XO Ann.
I love Siamese cats, Ann B! We had two when I was a very young child: Coco & Cinnamon. Both slept with me. Good memories……
Hi OSD, Off topic I know but I love any cat being a Leo and doggies too.But Siamese are the most dog like of all I feel.I grew up with three Siamese Suki,Sabaki, and Tanuki. Wonderful memories. That is one thing I really missed in Sea Org no pets allowed at least where I was.Mary Sue would write me about her little doggies that she dearly loved.She wrote me in her own hand on GOWW gold symbol note paper.One time I wrote her, Don’t you have a ships cat on The Apollo? and at the bottom of the note was a “No,R.”So that was maybe the second time during my SO days he really wrote me.On another note she wrote to me to thank me for Thanksgiving wishes,R wrote at the bottom and”she is feeding her little doggies turkey under the table! ” I had quite forgotten those notes.Mary Sue was sweet to me. Love,Ann.
So true, OSD. My cat knows he is superior to me. I am essentially his servant. When he wants his food on the floor, I snap and pop. I am useful, and for this reason he permits me to live in his home.
Love this dr mac. 🙂
Somehow, I missed that dogs and other pets receive implants too. Hmm.
Personally, I think our pets feel and respond to our emotion, not our look. So if you’re glaring, you’re sending out the emotion of the glare, which would be along the lines of anger and animals can feel that. Try glaring at your dog feeling happy and then glare putting out anger on them. You’ll see the difference in their response. I have an emotional dog, so I have seen this. Cats are another story though. They do as they please which makes them well, cats!
I love my cat buddies (2). Kittyboy is a Tuxedo and totally happy with himself, he don’t need no stinkin catbox cuz he goes outside come rain or shine. He demands play time or treats.
Kitty girl was a tiny little white kitty with blu eyes barely visible tabby stripes. She started turning into a little black and white tiger and she loves and adores her daddy too.She is very sensitive as well.
Those rubber stamping doctors are all putting their licences at risk. Thanks to David Love, a doctor in Quebec was sanctioned for sending patients to the purif at narconon.
Developed in the 50’s, I find it ridiculous that they still call it the “modern” science.
Oh, are you talking about the modern science fiction of mental health?
Interesting data (niacin). I guess in a nutshell the entire problem with scn is that Hubbard never actually conducted testing using SCIENTIFIC methodology when he tackled his “R&D”. But, if he HAD done so, there would have been no “bridge” that poured MILLIONS of $ into his private coffers.
His actions (and inactions) showed his true motivations; The accumulation of wealth and slaves NOT truth and spiritual freedom.
Hi John Locke,Thank you for your post today.The last bit so true.As to the Unicorns and rainbows I know rainbows fade and I have to watch those Unicorns because they can shower me with love one minute and stab me with that horn the next.Always a dreamer Ann can’t ever grow a thick enough skin even at my advanced age! Always Ann.
Ann, I’m a Pisces. It took a lot to rouse me too. 😉
Hi John, Locke, Thank you so and I am a Leo and was so glad when The Asho Lion ran away after David did his number on SHSBC and Asho D & F.Hope that lion keeps on running.Always Ann.
Ann: Can’t ever grow a think enough skin? What a blessing! Keep on smiling, dear girl!
Hi Peter,Thank you angel,what a lovely validation.I so enjoy and look forward to your posts.Love, Ann.
Good morning Mr. Locke, I have never read that Hubbard had any exposure to scientific methodology, or a science background at all. At best, when he reported something as a fact, he could be relied upon to “borrow” the research. As anyone that has been around scientology any length of time can attest, there have been “whoopsies”( that led to exteriorization). If scientology had been assembled by anyone with a science background, the original findings wouldn’t have been published until after the death of the first researcher.
All that being said, I notice there is no mention of what sits behind the natter on these blogs. Or that there is no other religion anywhere to get relief from past transgressions. From reading some of your posts, you state that no part of scientology works, it is all a fraud, and you always demand proof. I’m not certain where you got your data about the “Millions that poured into his private coffers”, I can say that I know what those coffers did and didn’t contain up through 1974.
As for his motivations, I can say from personal experience when you become a little bit successful it’s easy to lose focus, divorce yourself from the troops and wonder why in the hell these cretins can’t deliver the product. IMO unless one has created a third dynamic with ones own sweat, and listened to all the nay-sayers, the insurance companies and of course the attorneys and civil servants, one’s opinion on this topic has little to no value.
As a result of services in the CoS I went from being an hourly employee(schnook) to receiving honorariums from the State of California annually. I started in business in 1988 and by 2000 was recognized by the State. While my accomplishments are not stellar(almost anyone can get honorariums from the State), and I am near the end of this life, I can say that clean hands certainly brighten the future. I hope for you Mr. Locke a chance to brighten your future. Thanking you in advance for your kind attention, Henry
Henry, I hope that by the end of YOUR life you quit trying to be an apologist for a dangerous sociopath and serial felon.
Ciao
Henry James, are you defending Hubbard, or supporting any part of his tech?
Then, sir, I am compelled to repeat:
OH MY GOD.
Oh, dear. I’m lost, where to begin….
[ ],
I understand the phenomenon: love for LRH. I suffered that affliction until quite recently, I’m a little embarrassed to admit.
I beg you to step back, take a look at the man starting pre-1950, when he began to famously mold himself into a notorious, and shamelessly self-aggrandizing story teller.
Dip your toes into the early future from that moment, and notice how brutal he would become when confronted with any crticism. Note how that characteristic, along with his penchant for telling you how he knows so much more than all the rest of man and the history of knowledge, and keep separate from that your personal feelings towards the man, including intellectual achievements. Just look at what he created.
He created a trap.
Once in, you were severly punished for expressing any doubt about that trap, doubt about the founder in particular.
He reinforced the trap.
He threatened you, anyone inside the trap, with isolation for eternity if you were to leave the trap or go to the media, specifically the media, to be critical of the trap in any way.
The trap is the church. The trap is the tech, as the true purpose of that tech is again to keep you trapped, hypnotized into thinking the garden-variety therapy he actually delivers is “actually” the path to Total Freedom and the supposed salvation of mankind. Forget whether or not you bought this story. Just look at what I mean, when i say it is a trap, one that will sting very much, if you try to touch the fence. The punishment. The relentless disregard for everything and everybody in your life that you love. All that is waged against you in order to keep you in that trap.
Hubbard died his body riddled with drugs, his mind lost despite the heavy doses of anti-psychotics, himself the victim of acute paranoia. He was thus isolated from himself, a total failure. He died in hiding from himself, his church, his doctrine and, most of all, you.
He died refusing to tell you the truth.
And he died proving the tech does not work, except to keep his followers intranced and/or in the trap. Keep Scientology Working, indeed.
Each Scientologist represents one family brutally torn apart. That, to me, makes further the measure of good verses harm in terms of Scientology a useless endeavour. Oh, dear. Now I need a kleenex.
Mark, you are demonstrating the same logic that you are protesting against.
Point, Mr. Insular Brain, your point please.
And the next guy, who thinks the true purpose of Scn is what IT says it is?
.
I mean, honest to god. Don’t lose your skepticizm.
Although it is often a good thing to believe in yourself, I am always skeptical of people who claim to know “the true purpose” of anything.
What? L. Ron Hubbard lied?!! I want my money back!
I don’t believe it! Mans best fiend (I mean friend) would never do that!
Yo Dave,
Have you redone your purif lately? Please get right on it good buddy. Show the world that a measly 5K mg dose of Niacin is just a walk in the park for a real man such as Yerself.
Hi Newcomer, Now that post is telling it from the rooftops. Thank you kindly,Always Ann.
Wait……what? The biggest Being in the universe lied??!! Mary, I…..I don’t think I’m going to make it through this day. I’m…..Oh the hell with it! I’m going surfing!
too bad the refund policy is a lie, too; I really need a house.
Hey, am I noticing a pattern here? Anybody tell me what kind of church is this?
-Scientologists, where o where can they be,
if not answering me but for slick SuperBowl advertising
and documentary blasphemy.
Scientology truly is the fountain of “provable bullshit”.
As Mr. Burns would say, Excellent!
Here, here!
As Bart did in fact say, with arms raised,”Testify!
Like you said Mike, nothing wrong with exercise, getting rest and sitting in a sauna. The prioblem with Scientology – is there is no science to the claims of the Purif…and leads to “harsher drugs that destroy the mind and spirit – like The Bridge To Total Freedom…
Scientology takes EVERYTHING it does – over board – and it kills, maims and destroys.
There’s no science in anything El Con did. Again, ask them for the 30 years of research Hubbard (supposedly) did, and you get a blank stare…
Thanks, mike, for this info about the dangers of niacin. People still in will read this…it WILL help!
Mike Rinder, I’m glad to live in a world with you in it.
Me too, Mike! I hope to get out there and meet you and your family. Maybe an SP party at your place. FLAP would go into panic mode…….
Hey OSD, have you received you papers yet? If not, check in with Julian and if he won’t declare you, tell him you’re my friend. That ought to do it!
I’ll do that, pal! I just walked out and never looked back. But, hell, I WANT MY DECLARE! Maybe we should walk into the L.A. Org and demand our declares!
We’ll go over to the HGB and talk to Mike Sutter and Marion Pouw. Maybe we’ll get an invite to the 5th floor for a round of musical chairs ……..
Then we can cruise over to AO and ask Julian if we can see what nice things the cherch has to say about us! I think you are on fairly good terms but I suspect they really are not too fond of me.
Hey, I don’t want them to be fond of me either!!!!
Hi Mike,Yes,Yes if what you posted today could save one person from too much niacin then it all is worthwhile I believe that too.In a post this AM to Roger Hornaday I described my melt down cry this AM and why,but even so it is all worth it in the end.Seas do not always stay calm.and there are nights with no moon,I just have to put my feet on the path and keep walking.You know how greatly I value your work here.It is beyond any earthly price.You are a Hero every single day.Love,Ann.
VERY useful data Mike, thanks. As a former health professional (Gym owner, personal trainer, diet counsellor) — much appreciated.
The problems are: TOO MUCH of any of the various recommandations/obligations launched by the purif. Too much of ANY of the vitamins. Too much sauna hours. Too lazy “doctors” allowing some clients to go to the purif.
Perhaps you were never informed of the facts, Mike? Purif has killed many people. Purif is used on small kids who should never be allowed to take it. Or on old people with heart problems. Or on women waiting a baby. Anyway, recommending the same program on anybody – even if people reactions make it different – is and will remain absurd. People can have big lack oif some products, and have too few of another.
Not to remind that calcium and magnesium don’t run together. So, calmag is anti-scientific.
Roger, B Vitamins are part of a group of vitamins called B-C complex. Too much of a singe B vitamin causes a deficiency in the remaining B vitamins. Niacin is Vitamin B3, part of the group of vitamins that make up the B-Complex family of nutrients. In this department church members are very UNinformed as well as MISinformed on many subjects upon which they pretend to be experts. I would never trust a church member with any aspect of my health. Let alone someone that leaps off a roof with a Dianetics book in their hand hours after supervising someone else’s Purification Rundown. I say this to that person as no boast…give it a rest. 🙂
Yup Lawrence, I concur. Though it can and has been advanced that certain supplements (synthetically manufactured) ie Creatine, and Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) do, in fact, produce drug-like effects in individuals.
Indeed, it is thoroughly established that creatine monohydrate, (naturally occurring with the ingestion of red meats) given as a supplement, gives an increase of strength in both males, (enhancing testosterone and other androgens) and females (with unfortunate unwanted S/E’s (side effects)
In the case of Vitamin C (High dosages of up to 30 grams, given intravenously, (daily)) have been shown in Specialist Swiss treatment clinics, to act as an antagonist, effectively arresting the progression of certain cancers. The treatments reported as effective as long as continued, without further deterioration. (citations, verifiable per internet data.)
There is a lot more SCIENCE to the matter than just “talking at the bus stop” on this subject. Each person’s genes are UNIQUE to them and no else. Creatine, as a supplement, regardless of how it is consumed apparently AIDS a person in creating muscle mass BEYOND the allowances of their genetic chemistry. In instances such as this, I know of one example, a friend of mine named Bobby in his 30’s, a very handsome but not so intelligent guy. Because it turns out that after he finished his 3 or 4 years of Creatine enhanced workouts his body was unable to support the huge masses of artificially induced muscle he created. So, in the end, have you ever seen a person with thyroid problems that has REAL HUGE SAGGING LOOSE SWINGING back and forth bicep and tricep area muscles? On a guy it is not so appealing in a short sleeve shirt at 35! 🙂 I have heard a lot of guys at the gym say “Oh that doesn’t happen until you’re like 60”. I guess not. 🙂 Nutritional supplements can be of benefit but like anything, if misused……….. 🙂
Okaaaay, Lawrence. I’m afraid you may have been duped there, old chap. 🙂 I shall endeavor to explain why.
Unfortunately, creatine, even if taken on the “3 or 4 years of creatine enhanced workouts,” (Which, incidentally, require perhaps an initial up to 4 weeks loading period, followed by a reduced maintenance dosage, for a given receptor uptake cycle averaging about two months, for tolerant athletes. ) of course tends to plateau
in the strength/weight gains, after a limited period.
To offset this, one is cautioned, to then take a lay off for a minimum of two to three weeks, to allow the then down-regulated creatine receptors, time to up-regulate back up to normal.
Of course , one’s genetic potential for the carrying of muscle mass, predisposes one’s ultimate capacity to carry the massiveness you mentioned.
Regarding this last point, I’m pretty sure you are aware of the necessity for progressive overloading of weights lifted, in order to continuously break down the body’s major muscle groups, to stimulate the compensatory effect, as the larger, fuller, growth of targeted muscle.
Naturally, none of this is possible, without the eating of a progressively increasing quantity of high quality, nutrient dense food, of anything of between 6,000 — 10, 000 calories per day for the average bodybuilder, seeking massive gains (just in terms of FOOD only, and on average, making up to six SOLID meals, spaced approx 2-21/2 hours apart.) Of utmost importance, Lawrence, as one is made aware, to drink massive quantities of quality (purified) water min 8-10 glasses per day, primarily to regularly flush the kidneys of purines and residues of harmful crystal & other toxic build ups/deposits.
We then consider the addition of supplements, such as whey, egg, cassian protein powders, CREATINE and other workout ‘stimulant’ formulations, along with a good Multi-vitamin/mineral supplement, for optimum replenishment levels.
Of course,for optimum ‘natural gains’, the muscle repair/growth activity, takes place during rest/recuperation. This translates to a minimum of 8, but preferably 10 or more hours of total, restful sleep per daily cycle. — A tall order for one who has to work to earn their crust as well!! ?)
All things considered, following this type of regimen consistently, and faithfully, for “4 years”, would result in a fairly substantial, appealing physique, that would probably turn many heads on the beach!! 🙂
However, getting back to the BS you have apparently bought, as to the role of CREATINE, in your friend’s monster gains: — Ican confidently confirm that that “.. the huge masses of artificially induced muscle he created”, was definitely not accomplished just with supplementary CREATINE!! (NATURAL BODYBUILDING)
Sorry, to have to spell it out for you, my friend, but the simple truth is, — that MASSIVENESS you described, is only achieved through the consistent, and very deliberate, measured administration of an array of genuine, highly, anabolic,(muscle-building), and preferably low androgen (sex hormone) STEROIDS, Which make it possible at all.
You friend, (understandably) will feed you just what you “need to hear”, you see! 🙂 But when he is with his peers, advisors, you can be assured, Dosages, brands, cycles on/off, Decadurabolin, Anadrol, Equipoise, D-bol, androgen-inbibition (preventing ‘bitch-tits’), Diuretics of choice, Use of HGH (Human Growth Hormone)
— become the “menu of discussion”
Like many in an industry, I have done my share “in the trenches”
but it’s time to give back, and speak out against the lies and abuses.
— Hope I’ve cleared up some untruths for you, brother! 🙂
— Calvin. B. Duffield
# (former) gym-owner. # personal trainer.
# bodybuilding/powerlifting
# diet / contest prep. counselor # sports coach.
Currently still involved via part time instruction, as well as a p/time physique sculpting / trophy manufacturing business. and keeping in shape too, (died-in-the-wool IRON addict!! LOL)
Thanks for the heads up. 🙂
My pleasure. Only here to shoot for truth! 🙂
I’m surprised He hasn’t added some Saltpeter to the mix with His whole GAG II upgrades. Seems like it would help with His fixation on masturbation.
Yo Dave,
Whaddya say good buddy? Time to reissue the Purif matl’s for the International Association of Sociopaths Event?
Newcomer, I think that it is his fixation on NOT being able to. Thus, he doesn’t want anyone else to either. 😉
You’re on to Him John! 🙂
Poor, poor little dwarf….Not being “able to” must be tough on you. That and your size.
Yea, where is that thing anyway?
It’s a secret. But, if he went swimming on a cold day, it would impossible to see.
LOL, Stobbit now, Nc. 🙂 Hisss venom Schpittt insisssts on doinnnk ssinkks HISSSS vaaayy!!! Accchhtunnnngg, Fricckken Blitzzzenn Doltttennnn!!
On second thoughts, mebbe instead, we should invite HIm to an IAM Event?
–International Association of Masturbators.. Guaranteed to get a Rise On His Golden T/A there…. 😉
John says it can’t happen!
Yup, John has ‘come’ to know this, quite intimately, I hear.
Hey, Calvin, just wanted to tell you that John’s got /b/ackup here from a number of people. You really don’t want to start a war with me on the other side. I think you’re a nice guy, if a little misguided, and I really don’t want to unload both barrels on you.
Never go to war against an Anon. You really don’t have much of a chance.
You flatter yourself/ves, Esp. Do the bold thing, bro’ Xpose your self/ves for a fair contest here, Hmm?
–or does that simply expose your unhealthy looking liver, bro’??
Sorry, you’d be shooting at the the wrong target here, hombre. In fact, I believe a little guided tour of my working precinct, would quickly disabuse you of your own ‘misguided’ perceptions of me.. Shootings, being shot at, physically attacked, regular encounters of stabbings, eyegougings, with broken beer bottles, hi-jackings, women being raped by a gang publically, etc. etc.
— Who are you trying to scare, my friend?
Let me know if you’re keen to see for yourself, will you?
Btw, otherwise I theeenk you’re a nice guy too, Esp. 🙂
I dream of discovering your secret ingredient, Calvin.
Aww shucks, Mark. It’s just about lookin’ and realizn’ yo dealin’ in nothin’ mo’ than inflat’d ego/s, man! Really NOTHIN’ to it!! 🙂
Important post, and a good analysis of the issue. I know it is not directly relevant to your point, but a comparison of mortality of niacin vs statins would be interesting.
I am a chemist and niacin can be very dangerous in large doses.
Great article Mike. Though I’ve read some info on the dangers of niacin I did not know about the Piltdown Man thing. The layers are peeling off. Thanks.
Great post Mike
Belief has replaced science throughout history because some vested interest is more interested in their financial benefits from the “old” way than furthering the well being of their fellow man with new discoveries. This is what is happening in the Co$ today.
Excellent summation Robert
An important factor to consider, is that while there are no government institution regulating the intake of vitamins that I can find, there are manufacture recomended doses. All of them are well below what Scientology considers safe. This is also the case with Saunas too wich have instructions and warning labels on the side. When the people who make a product are telling you that it is not safe maybe you should listen.
Scientologists listening to wogs??? Radio Paul, are you mad? We’re wogs, for Christ’s sake! We don’t know shit about shit! Speaking of shit, let me enlighten everyone regarding religions:
This will put a smile on your face! And if it doesn’t, declare me!
Taoism: Shit happens.
Hinduism: This shit happened before.
Buddhism: It is only the illusion of shit happening.
Zen: What is the sound of shit happening?
Islam: If shit happens, it is the will of Allah.
Jehovah’s Witnesses: Knock, knock. Shit happens.
Atheism: There is no such thing as shit.
Agnosticism: Maybe shit happens…and maybe it doesn’t.
Protestantism: Shit won’t happen if I work harder.
Catholicism: If shit happens, I deserved it.
Judaism: Why does shit always happen to me?
Televangelism: Send money or shit will happen to you (First cousin to Scientology)
Rastafarianism: Smoke that shit (ya mon! We have good shit in Jamaica!)
Unitarianism: Who gives a shit?
Hi OSD, I absolutely love your post. My late Dad was an agnostic-sometimes atheist always 100% logical and my late Mom was a frustrated artist looney Unitarian- Universalist and your list fit them perfectly.With a pair of rents like that The Sea Org seemed positively enlightening!Except of course it was not.I read where you posted that your wife does photo safaris in Kenya.My Dad went all over the world for business and pleasure.1n 1975 he did a month photo safari in Kenya and stayed at the Rckereller Resort there. That was one of his most favorite trips.He did not care for gun hunters but loved photography.Love to you both.Ann.
Hi Mike, Regarding today’s story I suggest you reread KSW and in particular the point “Knowing the Tech Works”. Also some word clearing I’m sure wouldn’t hurt.
Note to our Dear Leader Captain Dave:
Don’t listen to any of these bitter apostates. Yesterday’s strategy of threatening Cobb Theatres was an excellent move. Keep up the good work!
By the way Bubba says hi and says he’ll see you soon.
ML,
Joe
Joe, what do you think that Mike needs “word clearing” on & why?
I thought it was obvious. And I think we’re gonna throw in a sec check for good measure. Yeah, that’s what we’ll do….
Hi Joe, That’s the ticket when in doubt sec check away until your thetan drops the body or drops the mind.I so like your posts.Always Ann.
Thanks Ann…likewise…hope you have a great day!
Hey, Joe, why can’t you answer the question? Quick duck in there, bro. Quack, quack! LOL
Gee Joe, can I be on hand to meet Bubba? i have a feeling we’ll hit it off just great!
Absolutely, Bubba is real lonely….
Oh, REAL lonely! He’ll take one look at the dwarf and say, “You my little puppy now!” And little Davy will repy: “Arf.”
Of course, OSD! Hadn’t you heard? He’s never stopped barking! — ever since he was a little (oops still is) puppy!
Maybe Bubba will turn him into a “real” man….
Ain’t nothin’ like California dreamin’, I s’pose.
I s’pose…..
Yeah, ‘OSD,’cept for that one, surreal, magical moment captured forever in the ‘tunnels of your mind.’
Finding yourself cresting into that shimmering, 8-foot diameter, mile long moving tube tunnel, snaking along, beckoning you to shoot the length to see if you can catch the dolphins, snaking ahead, with their unmistakable smiles to lead you on………. well,… anyways, just dreaming for ya, dude..:)
And you captured it perfectly! Where I surf, we have a pod of dolphins that come by every so often. They’ll actually body surf waves that we’re board surfing on. When they have their calves with them. they almost look like toys. In Hawai’i, I had a dolphin named Puka that I had complete access to. She was so wonderful. When I would come into the compound, she would jump up and down in her pool waiting for me to get in. We would play games and I was just talk to her. When you look into her eyes, you would see a loving, compassionate, intelligent, being looking right back at you. She just had a dolphin body. Most magical time of my life….
Hi OSD, You lucky dog! That dolphin moment is really spiritually uplifting,and riding horses on the beach and in the sea in Jamaica,you forever rock! XO Ann.
Surfer, that was a heart felt post. I knows what yall talkin bout. I pick up on animals as well. I love em.
Ahhhhh, yessss…. Just Puka & you… you get me– I get you. Puka gets us too… and all on the SAME PAGE!
And just mebbe, you may now be getting a glimmer (or shimmer?)(or two) about the habitat thingy, I’ve been ranting on about, to the empty air here. Am I mute or something? ?? 🙂 –Puka? You DO get me, don’t you?
Yo Dave,
What Joe said!!!
Now why not call up your motorcycle riding pal and have him give those assholes in Hollywood a good talking to as regards this documentary thingy. I mean the most important cult member (I mean Scientologist) in the world should be able to get that done with OT abilities alone ……..good fucking buddy!
And OSA,
What are you lame idiots doing about this flap for christs sake? Does COBB have to do everything for you as regards safepointing the town where the ‘Mecca of technical Perfucktion’ is headquartered? Scheesch!!
Do something fellas ……………….even if it’s wrong! Oh, I forgot, that is all that you losers actually do do.
Did I say Do Do…………?? That brings up another topic ……………..:)
LOL! 🙂
Yeah! Way to go Newcomer…
OMG, Joe, (Bubba), Newcomer and Co.,
Youz-guys are on a roll today and crackin me up 🙂
Is it just me Joe or the cryptic nature of your post?
What you talking about Willis?
I meant what I said, and I said what I meant, an SP is faithful one hundred percent.
I’m back in then? No questions? Really ?? Ohhh, only interrogations, via sec- checks!! — That’s really cool man!
Okay then…….. There!.. Packed!… I’m good to go!! 🙂
See the reg, pay your $$ and don’t forget to put Joe as your FSM.
////// Yesssireeee! Can’t wait to bow down and enslave myself to the “Lurch of DMentia”
….Thump! strangle! pummel! beat! spit! trample E%^2*7^%!! >>>>> “hahhehe eee hehehe ha! duh (nod! nod! nod!)
–“there! insane now!”…(lightening-fast tracked VFP thanks entirely to Dmented’s INSANE SPEED MIND FUCK run down).
eh…. oj/ ? ojo? er… eoj475 eh… jo? ojojojojogugluguh ?.////
(Shrill sound alarm clock)…. Mm-m Snort hmm?
— Jeez Nc.. Just had the most INSANE dream, .. bro’…
yes, yes
But, your secret ingredient, is it expensive?
Is it available only in Germany, perhaps a little-known pub?
Thank you Newcomer and I hereby pledge that any FSM commissions received will be fortwith (is that a word?) applied to donations to this site. Peace!
whoops wrong reply please make this up one, thanks Mike.
Forthwith and not withstanding is of course Shermanspeak for something like ‘it’.
Hi Indie8million,I sent a post to you regarding your Java link post and the rats completely blocked it so here I go again.I had totally forgotten Julie Christianson Wow your post was a blast from the past.I came back to Boston in late 78 and my late Dad was so pissed at me,for joining Sea Org,he sent me to a brutal shrink who fancied himself a Sci deprogrammer.His mo was to give me as much sleeping pills,all kinds, Valiums and everything else but the kitchen sink eac week.He believed drugging the hell out of me was the way to make me forget Sea Org.After a few months of this I got wise and flushed the pills down the toilet and whoops I lied to him that I was taking them,so he gave me more.I finally told my Dad the guy was beyond a jerk so he said Meet your new lawyer Mike Flynn! So I became one of the first clients that he wanted to,parade around Florida and sue the pants off Sci with.I was with him most of late 79 and into 80. The thing was he kept adding all these people that he wanted to use to sue and the whole case became huge.Too many cooks….I was then paired with an ex SO lady who had become a Satanist.I told Mike F that was not my thing and I was getting lost in this case so I told him I was opting out.However I had given him a huge write up at the start of my time with him, and imagine my shock when the first edition of Madman or Messiah? came out and there was a whole chapter not authorized by me with a pen name I did not pick,and half of what I had written had been changed to some sort of sex magic shit with a Ron double,Was I Upset!So I called Mike F and said why did he submit that and he said tough it is in the public domain and there was nothing I could do.So got burned with Intel in SO and got burned when out! The hours I spent in Mike F’s office and all the types I saw pass through wanting to join the suit fit money. I do not know how I came this far in my little boat.That is why I kept my SO story to myself till 2015 when I found Mike R.That is why I say he and all of you saved my life.Light and love as you posted light and love! XO Always Ann.
Ann. Thank you. Duplicated, understood. VWD. 🙂
The word clearing bit threw me a curve. I’m still a little “worded out” if you know what I mean.
Please don’t be Yawnalot. I am working this out after 36 years in and all that that entails. Have close family “in” and want that sonofabitch to go down, and down hard. It’s just my way.
All it takes, is something to shoot “that” blood pressure up to stroke inducing level, Joe…. There…problem solved! 🙂
Yeah, I’ve got family still in too and OT8s at that! So much for how good that must be… what a load of crap. Can’t believe after 30 years it got to such a stalemate and no solution has come close to resolving our separation and getting us back together again – tough situation, it’s like a death in the family.
Hi I Yawnalot, I just had to post that I really empathize with you even though I never was put in that situation as I was the only one in my family that was in.I can see where it is like a death.Disconnection is so very cruel but then again,what else can we expect from the cult? You are amazing to have had to deal with that for 30 years.I salute you.Love,Ann.
I feel for every single one of you (must be thousands, presently still affected directly and indirectly), including Mike our host.
The Exit is unfortunately barricaded by one’s own FEAR of the consequences of attempts to leave. ALL accomplished and engineered through the power of TOTAL MIND CONTROL. as implanted by a sociopathic, megalomaniacal midget. with thoroughly evil fixations and hatred for everyone.
He’s still just a human, with his own weak spots that will ultimately be penetrated and finish him.
If I could put it in words, “it’s surreal.” You just can’t quite accept it and expect a phone call or a visit but it never comes. I’ve gotten info.via 3rd parties about there lives etc but the connection is definitely severed from the church side. They truly live in a wonderland of their devising and everyone else doesn’t exist. If I was to guess I expect they are waiting for me to front up and admit my evil ways while on my hands and knees crawling over broken glass begging for forgiveness, and then the A-J.
Fat chance that’s ever going happen but in the Cof$ devote’s minds they are superior in ever way – they know that! A cleared planet is still real to them, it only takes 10,000 of ’em so the false data goes.
Go figure hey? what a bunch of wakos the superior communicators are…
Hi Indie8million,I meant types joining the suit for money not fit money.Ann.
Actually it’s: What chu talkin’ bout, Willis? I know because I’ve been using that line since I heard it.
Me too Dude, love that line!
What chu talkin’ bout, Joe?
🙂