The latest in the series of Saturday morning conversation starters from Terra Cognita
The Fallacy of Exchange in Scientology
Ron Hubbard’s theory of exchange is not only a central component of Scientology financial policy but is a pervasive consideration in just about every aspect of a Scientologist’s life. Members are taught early-on that being “in-exchange,” is imperative. That what they give must be commensurate with what they receive. Giving more than one receives—“exchange in abundance”—is even better. Giving less than one receives—“out-exchange”—is an overt—a misdeed, a moral transgression, a lapse in judgement. And likely to land one in Ethics.
Being “out-exchange” for Scientologists is that from which nightmares are made. LRH said being out-exchange pulls in the bank and can make one sick.
Scientology Books, Lectures, and Services
LRH materials and services are believed to be so valuable, Scientologists believe their worth justifies their hefty prices. Charging $500/hour for auditing is considered “exchange in abundance.” Who can put a price tag on eternal freedom, after all? Charging $30 for a $10 book is deemed in-exchange because of the value of its contents and because the proceeds pay for planetary dissemination.
Paying full price for a course or auditing action for the second or third time (because the earlier versions were flawed) is business-as-usual for Scientology. Since all proceeds go toward clearing the planet, their exchange is in.
Bondage
Perhaps the greatest out-exchange in Scientology is exemplified by how staff are treated and compensated. In Class 5 orgs and missions, staff are allowed to moonlight (work at jobs outside of Scientology) to earn money. Sea Org staff don’t have that luxury.
SO members work insane hours for little to no pay. They receive no pensions. Medical and life insurance are nonexistent. Saving accounts, social security, and IRAs are WOG instruments dreamed up by a secret cabal of international bankers to suppress the masses.
The promise of “free” auditing is what keeps many going. In reality, staff are the last to receive processing. Most serve decades without “going OT.” Many never go “Clear.” The majority wear this lack of spiritual progress as a badge of courage, sacrificing their own personal freedom for that of others. They are “exchanging in abundance.”
Many staff believe that helping to save the world is their exchange for a better afterlife. This concept is almost karmic. Good deeds in one’s present life ensure promotion to a higher state in the next. If they’re lucky, this occurs sometime before their billion-year contract expires.
LRH acknowledged in Keeping Scientology Working that, “it’s a tough universe,” and “only the tigers survive—and even they have a hard time.” He also wrote, “We’ll survive because we are tough and are dedicated. We’re not playing some minor game in Scientology. It isn’t cute or something to do for lack of something better. The whole agonized future of this planet, every man, woman and child on it, and your own destiny for the next endless trillions of years depend on what you do here and now with and in Scientology.”
This attitude excuses treating staff like dogs and justifies the tremendous out-exchange. Exploitation, cruelty, and abuse are commonplace in the Sea Org but accepted by many staff. They feel they’re getting in their exchange.
In HCOPL 4 April 1972, Ethics, LRH wrote, “The unhatted unproducing staff member, who is not really a criminal or psychotic, can be made to go criminal. Criminal exchange is nothing from the criminal for something from another. A staff member can be coaxed into this kind of thinking by PERMITTING HIM TO RECEIVE WITHOUT HIS CONTRIBUTING.” [Capitalization by LRH] These words add even more pressure to work long hours for no pay. No one wants to be a criminal.
The church’s exchange with its staff is horrific and completely skewed. Whether staff admit to this manipulation or not, doesn’t change the fact that only a cult member would agree to work sixteen hours a day for fifty cents an hour with no tangible benefits. Only someone who was brainwashed or desperate would sign a contract to work under such conditions. And for a billion years? Yikes!
The Public
A primary reason people leave the church is because they believe they didn’t get their money’s worth. The exchange was out. If Scientology were in-exchange with its public, more people would stick around. They paid $12,000 for $39.95 worth of services. They turned over hard-earned saving for unfulfilled states of higher beingness.
Many Scientology public are cowed into contributing beyond their means for fear of being out-exchange. So deeply ingrained is this concept that many routinely violate common-sense financial policy in order to be “in-exchange” with the church. Nobody wants to be thought of as a slacker or dilettante. Much less, a criminal.
In lieu of being on staff, volunteering, or FSMing, other Scientologists keep their “exchange in” by donating to the IAS, an “ideal org,” or some other ancillary organization.
Management
Upper church management and advanced orgs are out-exchange with Class 5 orgs and missions. Management demand weekly reserves at the expense of these lower org’s staff pay and ability to survive. Sea Org missions routinely rip off personnel without properly replacing them.
Advanced orgs rip off public for services that, per Scientology policy, are supposed to be done at Class 5 orgs and missions.
Management, at the direction of David Miscavige, routinely force feed orgs off-policy, unproven programs that create an even wider gulf in the exchange.
In HCOPL 27 Nov 1971, Money, LRH wrote “If an activity does not produce and deliver and exchange with other activities, no money is possible. This is what is behind low gross income.”
In HCOPL 1 Sep 1973, Admin Know-How No. 30, LRH wrote, “The SURVIVAL of any group depends utterly upon things like PRODUCTION and EXCHANGE. That is the way the universe runs. When these factors are not competently handled, the group is in poverty or vanishes.”
Since all Class 5 orgs and missions have been insolvent for decades, they must not be exchanging anything the public wants or finds valuable.
Last Words
The Church of Scientology is grossly out-exchange with its staff, its public, and with society. Period.
Still not Declared,
Terra Cognita
Excellent post. I agree completely that the Church is out-exchange without guilt or conscience with staff and paying customers. Such hypocrites. Thank you for writing this article. Patricia
A bunch of really insightful posts here!
+100K
I have read about the recruitment tactics of Scamology for some time. It seems it targets celebrities in Film industry. Its funny cause the Music industry has a ton of rich people. Springsteen. Bob Dylan. Paul mccartney. ..Clapton. Etc. Super rich..maybe their too smart.
I did a Class IV auditing internship at Flag in 2008. Audited a guy, and pulled a withhold that centered around being “out-exchange” (guy lived off his parents without giving anything back, something like that). I was told by the auditing supervisor “Out-exchange isn’t an overt.” Bullshit. That was the beginning of the end of Scientology, Inc. for me.
Wonder what the supervisor would have said if your pc’s overt was that he was out exchange with the church.
That auditing supervisor was out-tech in evaluating what an overt is. What is an overt for one person may or may not be an overt for another. If it reads on the meter its an overt. Amazing out-tech, and this is Flag!
So glad I never had the money to go there when I was in.
TC, thanks as always for your pieces.
“Exchange” in Scientology strikes me as another of those things like “responsibility” that only works one way – the CofS and its authorities are never considered to be out exchange with anyone even under the most egregious circumstances of failing to perform as promised or even causing harm; but members, staff, and outsiders are frequently judged to be culpable. Any burden or blame always goes down the organizational hierarchy, and ultimately, away from Hubbard at the top of that hierarchy. And if there is abundance that creates debt, that only comes down from Hubbard and establishes obligation to the Scientology hierarchy.
The theory seems a bit inconsistent to me, like how there could ever be abundance without creating out-exchange, but all the problems like that effectively get resolved by imposing the Hubbardian scientological one-way system on it.
Thank you Terra. Once again your clear analysis is dead accurate, completely true. This Dilettante joined the Sea Org largely based on the “exchange” recruiting tactic. Thank you for the work you do here. People need these truths.
Perhaps this is a stupid question from a never-in (but with a family member who is in a relationship with a public Scientologist)….so, are the IAS regs required to give all their money too? From the little that I’ve experienced, it seems that they seem to be doing financially well, while they work for DM to fleece everyone else.
That’s a good question, and I don’t know the answer.
In Scientology, no one is exempt.
In other words, only a criminal minded person gets away without paying according to Scientology doctrine.
Call the Midwife, that is a good question. The IAS was given special privileges that no other SO member had: more money, trips to places and spending money there, all sorts of things. Janet Light was an IAS reg and her story was told some time ago on Tony O’s site or maybe on Mike R’s site and she spills the beans on how the IAS got special favors more so than the other SO. And Hy Levy, (RIP), told of how Flag registrars got way more money than the auditors etc. He was able to buy his wife expensive jewelry etc.
I heard that there is a limit that a public scientologist, working for the IAS, can make (something like $250,000) and that some of them have “donated” a large amount to the IAS themselves (or maybe even “given” some of their commissions).
Hubbard’s exchange policy Was not new nor original. It had the LRH twist and some embellishments, Fundamentally, it is a rehash of “Better to give than receive” and some others. Way back when, if you gave to CoS, you received a course or some auditing. Today the donations to IAS are by Hubbard’s definition, out exchange and off policy. DM has taken the church to a new level of insane.
“In HCOPL 4 April 1972, Ethics, LRH wrote, “The unhatted unproducing staff member, who is not really a criminal or psychotic, can be made to go criminal. Criminal exchange is nothing from the criminal for something from another. A staff member can be coaxed into this kind of thinking by PERMITTING HIM TO RECEIVE WITHOUT HIS CONTRIBUTING.” [Capitalization by LRH] These words add even more pressure to work long hours for no pay. No one wants to be a criminal.”
L. Ron Hubbard’s thinking puts anyone of the members at a disadvantage because of Hubbard’s misuse of words.
He gets away with mislabelling things left right and center, and this parallel universe of misused words keeps the Scientologists in their own cacoon side world, in a sort of “Palace City” world that is out of the time zone of the rest of the world.
This article today is another example of Robert Jay Lifton’s list of things that make a totalistic group.
Scientology’s totalistic group faults keep Scientology perpetually in their “Palace City” time-warped mental world.
Hubbard’s misuse of words makes it difficult for outsiders to get how badly mentally warped Scientologists are.
It’s more than just a foreign language that Hubbard created for Scientologists to be unique citizens in Hubbard’s mental world, but they have to submit to the Hubbard prejudiced thinking and falsely claim they are not being prejudiced but are being rational about their thinking.
It’s quite a mental delusion that Hubbard enforces on the Scientologists, and they can’t see their ways out of it, it takes years to unwrap from the Hubbard crap.
I like the reference to Palace City. I believe it was 7 minutes in the future?
Dear Doug,
Yea, if you think of it, there will be these odd parallels in Hubbard’s fiction writings, of particularly Mission Earth books, which are so lambasted in all reviews I’ve ever read, and Hubbard’s fiction is rife with parallels to his thinking and mentality.
What Hubbard couldn’t see in himself, he’s littered in his own fiction writings. What he thought good and bad of, is all in his characters’ views in the books.
No one’s done the full blown page by page, paragraph by paragraph of all the ironic parallels to his own flaws and prejudices. It’s too nauseating to subject oneself to Hubbard’s total complete mentality and blindspots .
I may be the only person, but I actually enjoyed the Mission Earth series. I thought it was very entertaining
At our office, we file certain government papers frequently. Sometimes we joke that “well now we will see if the trustee is still alive” when we file a paper because there is supposed to be government oversight.
Which begs the question: is the IRS alive? The biggest tax fraud on the planet is being committed right in front if their faces and they continue to look the other way. I find it impossible to believe that Monique the Blink could even begin to protect Miscavige and what is left of his staff if the government got serious about digging into the finances of this sham.
Hubbard had on the outside a pretense of a religion. David Miscavige, after gaining tax exempt status, has dropped all pretense and flaunts in the IRS faces huge empty buildings, private chefs, several elaborate private residences, a fleet of personal vehicles, Sea Org labor performing duties for celebrities for little or no cost and most recently attempted bribes of public officials in the form of pretending to fix Clearwater, secret meetings, lavish parties all paid for from huge reserves far beyond what would be reasonable to believe would exist for any 501(c)(3).
Meanwhile the only person who gets any sleep or food is David Miscavige.
For those of you who have spent time in, think of the money you spent, or if you were on staff, the money people paid vs your rate of pay and it becomes obvious Sally quickly that a lot more money came in than ever stayed to help the “locals” despite all of LRH’s written assurances. There is not now nor has there ever been any real exchange in scientology. Even in the 70s, behind closed doors, we called it scamatology and diamondetics, and why I managed to leave long before Miscavige took over. It is and has always been about making the person at the top a richer man. Full stop.
Valerie. The huge empty building are not in violation of IRS codes. They a IN compliance with IRS regs. Which is why DM buys them. To keep the corporations LEGAL with expenditures by non-profits.
@Wynski, i beg to differ.
The code states
“Vacant land/Buildings
Vacant land and/or buildings may be eligible for the Not-For-Profit exemption if you have active plans and documentation to show that it will be used in the near future for one of the approved purposes listed above. This is a “Contemplated Use Exemption.” If you have a Contemplated Use Exemption you must file a Not-For-Profit Organization’s Tax Exemption Application once work is completed or you may lose your property tax exemption.”
Buildings that are bought and left vacant do violate the exemption.
Durban is vacant and has been for years so is Chicago, to name a couple with no plans that it will be used in the near future. Plus the approved purposes
Valerie, that’s a point well take. If I recall correctly, the long-vacant buildings are getting hit with taxes in many cases – making them even more of a burden on the struggling orgs that can’t come up with the money for renovations. It vaguely rings a bell that Scientology may have wriggled out of taxes in a few cities, and I think that implementation of non-profit requirements can vary when it comes to local property taxes.
I understood Wynski to be referring to the large, mostly-empty “ideal” orgs – which aren’t quite empty, so they do qualify for tax exemption. And as I responded to Wynski, I think that the more nuanced issue of mostly-empty large buildings will eventually land Scientology in trouble, once there are too many of them and they have been too empty for too long.
Well Val. Test if you are correct. IRS takes anonymous tips.
I passed it by a regional auditing manager. It passes muster.
Wynski, I think that the huge empty buildings are ultimately in violation of the IRS requirement that a church provide significant public benefit. But right now, Miscavige has the IRS, along with his members, distracted by the appearance of “expansion” from spending money on all the fancy new facilities, and waiting to see if something actually happens. At some point the sham will start to fall apart, if only when it becomes all too obvious to parties like the IRS who are paying attention, that space is growing while membership just continues to fall.
I think it’s also going to be interesting to see what happens with Christian Science, which is also in a similar bind of having a lot of assets and plunging membership, both in terms of tax treatment and in terms of organizational response to terminal decline. In terms of doctrinal issues, the Christian Science church leadership so far seems willing to go the way of the Shakers, determined to stick to the purity of their beliefs even if it means extinction.
I can see why many never-ins can’t understand how intelligent people can get into scn and stay especially those in the so for years. Scn was something that may start small for you, but as time goes along, it’s like being part of a fraternity or a very special group. I don’t really understand why i stayed in over 20 years. It just envelopes you and becomes a much bigger part of your life. It becomes important in all areas at one point if you stay in. It is hard to understand it without being part of it. It still mystifies me. Lrh was very clever in manipulating people to step further in. That to me was his smartest accomplishment. And of course the $ came too.
As a ‘wog’ I do so somewhat understand. (Oh how I hate that word wog – I grew up with so much hatred towards me. My ‘crime’? Being born to a Greek family in Australia…. It was always wog this, wog that…)
I obviously have not had the scientology experience, so I cannot comprehend everyone’s thoughts and feelings. But, I was raised in an extremely violent home – lots of physical and emotional abuse – which did not end until I got married. Hell, even as a married person they tried their schtick, but it didn’t work as well as they wanted it too (once a doormat, always a doormat…). I was constantly told that Aussie parents were the WORST. LGBT people were diseased – any hateful stuff that you can imagine, I was force fed it. I have to say – and I REGRET this deeply – that I parroted everything I was told. That’s what good little Greek Girls do – apparently – and I did a good job of it. I do think about this period of my life and I cry. A lot. But if your brain has been manipulated for years, you really do not have the ability to say NO. You feel that this is IT – this is where you belong. You don’t want to admit to yourself that YOU were wrong. The world would not have ended had I stood up to them.
So, yes, I do KINDA understand.
(I apologise to the other posters if they feel that I have hijacked the thread)
RedVelvet
xxx
Uggh I just realised I did not clarify…
I AM NOT IN ANYWAY ANTI LGBT!!!! My parents failed miserably in that department – as well as all that garbage about Aussie parents etc..!
I hear you. A dear friend of mine from Melbourne is Greek and the stories he tells of his childhood growing up in the suburbs and being called “wog” on a daily basis and treated horribly was a lot to take in. Australia is not the land of milk and honey as it is often made out to be. It can be very racist and cruel.
Having ugly minded parents… yeah I know about that too. Thanks for sharing RedVelvet. and good luck to you.
Thankyou for your kind words. Having a little sob (quiet one – I don’t want my son to think there is something wrong with his mummy). Sadly, not a lot has changed, and there is still an awful lot of hatred.
On a better note – I think that I have found my ‘people’ here!!!
Till next time
RedVelvet
xxxx
Thank you for your story, RedVelvet. Like everybody else who can recollect the past I have regrets about my past actions that caused suffering to others. However, I have no regrets about my past ignorance. I don’t feel sorry for myself nor do I blame others. In order for us to have thought and acted differently we would have had to be a different person.
I know an enlightened man who fell in with some radical hippies back in the late 60’s. He robbed a bank and got into a gun fight with the police all for the cause of destroying evil capitalism. He went to prison for 17 years and there he encountered the teachings of Ramana Maharshi and became self-realized.
He emerged from prison with a smile on his face that shines to this day. He tells wonderful stories about his deranged prior life. Those of us who fucked up big time or had terribly unpleasant histories have the best war stories! Indeed, I wouldn’t trade my brainwashed years in scientology for anything!
Hello Roger,
It is true. We can think back to our pasts, and wonder WTH?? But ultimately, we must lay claim for some of the responsibility. It’s a hard truth to swallow, and we can make all sorts of arguments against it, but it is true:((
The story about your friend was inspirational. Good for him! It took a dreadful situation (and yes I know I am understating the obvious!) to make him the person he is today. And you are right – people with very tragic pasts do tell the best stories.
Take care:)
RedVelvet
xxxxxx
Hey Roger, I completely agree with you. I am so grateful for all of my experiences.
All circumstance is the workshop of spiritual evolution.
Gratitude!
Thanks for posting that.
Wasn’t part of auditing asking if the pc had ever had critical thoughts about LRH? I can’t remember where I read that, but that sure is an impetus for STOPTHOT!! And then if the cans betrayed you, hell to pay?
I have wondered if this particular indoctrination ( ingrained refusal or deeply entrenched fear of any LRon critique) would be a reason for Hubbardism, Indie, or Lron apologists.
What unbelievable mind control: in scientology you can’t even THINK certain thoughts. No other dictatorship has ever had that degree of mind control. Even in the giant prison camp of North Korea, if you keep your mouth shut, you can at least think your own thoughts – but in scientology, where everything comes up when you get audited or sec checked. What a horrible way to have to live your life!
I remember reading a “success story” promoted by the church, written by a woman who gave the IAS 50,000.00 to “secure her Patron” status. This is a pure donation for which she got no courses, no auditing. So right there, the church was out of balance with her by 50k.
In this success story, she proclaimed (paraphrasing) “It is important to exchange in abundance with the church and LRH for all he has given us.”
She had it 180° backwards. In the policy she is referring to, Hubbard talked up the magic of Exchange in Abundance, i.e., the organization giving the Customer more than they’d paid for.
So much for the IAS keeping the tech pure and applied exactly.
Dear John Doe,
Hubbard’s “Bridge to Total Freedom” ……… “……Freedom……”
Massive false claim of promise right there!
The WHOLE offereing, the whole stepladder of Scientology supposed to result in this penultimate spiritual FREEDOM status of oneseld on one’s journey up the Hubbard “Bridge to Total Freedom” stepladder.
“…..Freedom……”
No demonstration of this “…..Freedom…..”
Vacuum of “….Freedom…..” from Scientology, for all the billions of dollars of exchange that Flag has made over the decades.
No societal impact, other than the scene in Clearwater.
Scientology leader all upset at not being able to buy a parcel of land in downtown Clearwater as if that is the biggest most important issue in the world today.
True freedom is walking away from the cult…and getting your old life back.
If I were a person who took a second mortgage out on MY house to give it to a local ideal org, I’d be pretty pissed that miscavige offered 15 million for a parking lot for a swimming pool, as I was being hit up for more money to pay for the renovations of the ideal org.
Swimming or clearing my local org area, what’s more important?
Never mind. Swimming. At least you get what you paid for.
When that Michael Roberts IAS dude spoke to me at AOLA a couple of years ago his eye lit up when I told him that I had never heard of the IAS. He really wanted my money.
Every time they tried to reg me for some insane IAS BS, I would tell them that I need my money for my retirement years, which I’m approaching. They couldn’t understand my logic but I held fast. Screw them! I didn’t give them a cent. Bastards!
Several years ago, I was talking to one of those auditors who was attached to the Flag Service consultants office. (Every interview, no matter what the issue, ended with, “Hey, I think maybe you should go to Flag.”)
Anyway, I told him I couldn’t afford to go to Flag because a lot of money was going towards supporting this old man I that I knew.
The auditor looked concerned and asked who this old man was.
“ME! In twenty years or so,” I replied.
He smiled but really hadn’t been drilled on that one. So
Clearly Pissed Off, I got declared for nicely and in a subdued manner gently telling an elderly friend of mine in an email that now that he was retired and not working, he shouldn’t give ALL his money from his 401K to ASHO because then he would have nothing to live on in his retirement, and he won’t have another 20 to 30 years to make it back with working a job. I made sure to write that “although the IAS is good and does good work, you need to think of your own needs and future too by giving a little and keeping some money for your old age.” I made sure to down-pedal it and to compliment the IAS to him just so he wouldn’t turn me in. Well, later the church started asking people to look through comms with me and turn in anything that seemed disaffected, and he turned this in on me and it got me declared, that along with reading the blogs. So this naïve sheeple gave ALL his money to the IAS and to ASHO, got gross out tech on his case, and is now messed up with no money to buy review auditing with and NO money to live on. I tried to warn him and it got me declared.
Cindy…’They” did you the BIGGEST favor of your life by officially “DECLARING” you….I’d be up on the rooftop shouting news like that! YOU are free and can live your life as you chose, save or spend your $ as you see fit!
Sadly your friend chose another way, to remain loyal, and was taken for a ride financially, you tried to save him, but it was HIS decision to stay.
I’ve said it before but it bears repeating: YOU can’t save someone who does NOT WANT to be saved”……..it’s as simple as that!
I am proud of you Cindy!
CPO…& John DoeY
You made my day! I loved your tale of how NOT to get screwed over by CO$!
Another way is to start talking about OT 3! The Clams will quickly Clam up…
I believe the ‘exchange’ concept is rooted in nature where all things great and small have a utility that serves the whole. And that whole, in order that it be served optimally, requires that all the participants thrive while they live. (Not in a future lifetime.)
That is nature’s eco-system and Hubbard made out of it a principle, an ‘exchange’ principle. And guess what? Based on a system that is perfectly equitable and successful he fashioned a self-serving one! Of course it sounds good in the sermon, nobody is saying it doesn’t, but if Mr. Hubbard were to conform to the model upon which his principle is fashioned, one which admittedly has big things dining on little things, he would have had his parishioners and especially his staff members attain great success, to THRIVE for at least a while before he sucked out their juices.
An eco-system that operated like that would disappear.
From what I understand this “exchange” philosophy is why these frauds will show up at a catastrophe in their yellow shirts to dispense WTH pamphlets and touch assists, but little or no $$$. Isn’t that what the tax exemption is for? The very fulfillment of their tax free status obligations are forbidden by policy, on record! Where is the IRS?
Who in the IRS should we ask about this, I wonder.
Yep, been there, done that and even have the T shirt! Another sobering view of Scientology’s “mind numb” Terra, well composed & written.
To me it’s all pretty simple now. Arrest the asshole criminals who peddle this concept and embellish it to rip people off, or worse, insist upon making it a ‘dedicated religious lifestyle’ (cult) and enforcing it way past the point of contradictory and easily proved evidence of it being used for insanely criminal motives and agendas. If it hurts even one person, it’s criminal! Scientology has been doing this for decades under the protection of the US Constitution. One way to look at it is that Miscavige is operating as a modern day version of an outlaw.
“Exchange,” is a completely psychotic subject, concept, motive, whatever you want to call it in Scientology and their Bridge is about as workable as eating mud cakes to loose weight. Everything about the Scientology organizing method is way, way past the point of ever correcting itself or anything in it – they have NOTHING to exchange anyway except the use of the concept of “exchange” to brainwash, get money and acquire slaves for nothing! Arrest Miscavige and incarcerate him immediately, round up his henchmen, bring them to account and disband the whole organisation. To do anything or think anything else is ignoring the misery and heartache that Scientology creates with it’s false promises and hidden agendas.
To put it simply, the way Scientology is programmed to operate is, ONE BIG FUCKING LIE GENERATING COUNTLESS OTHERS! It’s a huge lie machine, completely out of control!
Geezers, if Scientology actually worked, you wouldn’t need to even mention, insist upon or adopt “enforced exchange.” Always said the SO was bad idea!
Any chance the Sea Org is in violation of wage and hour laws? Most likely not a new thought but I’m positive that none of the non-profits I support could get away with what I understand to be the norm for the Sea Org operation.
Sadly, religious volunteers don’t get the protection of wage laws.
What confuses me is how the government can go in and rescue the children in Warren Jeffs’ cult and arrest him for his crimes while at the same time not only are the children in Scientology being brainwashed and for all intents and purposes being abused/neglected but adults are being assaulted, held against their will and worked like slaves. I am not saying that the sexually molested children should be left with their abusers- NO. It was absolutely right that Jeffs was arrested- but what about all the other men still doing the same thing? At issue here in my mind isn’t WHAT crime is being committed in the name of “religion” but HOW the government is differentiating between those crimes. The people in the Jeffs cult are NO less brainwashed and No less firmly entrenched in their beliefs than those perpetuating the abuses in Scientology. Maybe I am missing the grey area here, but how is the brainwashing of people to believe that molesting children is a religious doctrine condoned by a higher power and the brainwashing of people to believe that being kept prisoner in The Hole and subjected to assault and battery is a religious doctrine condoned by Xanu (or whatever the Hell it’s name is) different in the eyes of the Law? Yes children need to be protected no matter what and absolutely what is being done to them is heinous. But how is the Law able to decide that one “religious” organization’s brainwashed followers are to be saved while others’ aren’t. Are there degrees of brainwashing and mental manipulation in cults that get overlooked? Are the people who are in The Hole being beaten mentally, emotionally and physically, made to stand in trash cans while cold water is poured on them, subjected to strenuous excercise until they fall out, fed rice and beans, etc any less deserving of being saved in spite of themselves? I have heard Mike say that if asked, those people will say they are there willingly and probably won’t leave. But isn’t that the same skewed mental state that the Jeff’s cult followers are in, too?
I guess I am just all for an armed SWAT Team going in and getting those people out and into some sort of safe therapy and deprogramming.
azhlynne, I think the difference in handling of the cases comes down to a basic societal and legal presumption that children can’t consent, and can be taken advantage of – but that adults can, except in cases of the most obvious physical coercion.
I would agree that there is more nuance to it – bit it’s also hard to define that in ways that can be acted upon.
My suggestion is that the first and least controversial steps would be to put legal measures in place to ensure that adults in situations where there might be undue influence and control, such as communal working and living, are required to demonstrate some measure of consent, and are informed and reminded of their rights. One obvious example would be to require posters with information about human trafficking be posted in workplaces, just as notifications already are about wages and workplace safety. I’d also suggest that religious groups be restricted from having members or workers sign complex contracts, and on the signing of any contract, be required to provide standard disclosures, just as is now done with loans and other agreements in areas that have been found prone to misrepresentation and abuse.
azhlynne. The cases are apples and oranges. I read the briefs on the case you are talking about. Completely different animals.
@Azhlynne….The children in the Warren Jeffs cult were NOT rescued at all. They were taken away for a brief period of time & then RETURNED to their mothers. SOME of their fathers were arrested however.
The FLDS “Prophet” Warren Jeffs is in prison for having sex with a 12 year old girl that he “spiritually married”. As SICKENING as it is, after Jeffs “married” this 12 year old girl, his CONSUMATION” of his “marital rite” was recorded and that tape was listened to by the proper authorities. Jeffs belief was that his “consummation” of that marriage had to be witnessed by some of his other “spiritual wives” and others….nice huh, to have the RAPE of a child witnessed by others.
The women in his FLDS cult still pray for Jeffs release, they still think he is the Prophet and they are so brainwashed they remain loyal to him. Jeffs STILL runs the show from behind prison walls, giving orders that are followed by his loyalist.
AS it stands now the FLDS are in huge trouble for Food Stamp Fraud….in their cult MOST of he children’s fathers are NOT listed on their birth certificates because THAT would mean that the listed father would be responsible for child support. Having NO father names, they woman gets FREE everything.
The Kingston Branch of FLDS’ leader…Daniel Kingston has 150 children or more by many different wives…..and NOTHING has been done about THAT .
What do you expect the government to do to CO$ when FLDS is not held accountable for what Warren Jeffs did to some of his 70 to 75 “wivces”…that’s right…SEVENTY TO SEVENTY FIVE girls and women that he’s had sex with. For a parent to REFUSE to have their “little girl” handed over to HIM as a “bride” means that family will be broken up and the wife and children ASSIGNED to some other more loyal man….sickening.
CO$ someday things might happen in regard to what’s happened in the past, sad thing is a Statute of Limitations exists for harm done to children…now THAT is sickening.
As I said in my original post, my focus for the purposes of this discussion are not on WHAT crime is being committed in the name of “religion” but what template or yardstick is being used by our government in order to determine, or rather to differentiate between when and how to step in to protect the followers from themselves when they have been rendered unable to make cognitive, informed decisions on their own due to brainwashing and abuse. I completely understand that children are the most vulnerable and absolutely MUST be priority one. However at the same time, (and maybe I am looking at this through the eyes of a child abuse survivor here) what kind of lives are the children living within the walls of the CO$? From everything I have read these little ones are, for all intents and purposes being neglected by their parents unforgivably. The children are treated as adults in a child’s body because they have lived countless lives before. The responsibilities and chores expected of them cannot be age appropriate, nor are the punishments for perceived failure. The parents do not appear to be pivotal in the rearing, protection and nurturing of their children; ergo is someone who is raised to adulthood in such an environment truly equipped to make informed, reasonable decisions about their lives? Especially when that person finds him or herself locked in The Hole. How often do we see a woman in a domestic violence situation and think; “Girl you need to just leave him before he ends up killing you!” It isn’t that simple though. A person involved with an abusive partner lives with not just the physical violence, but also a daily torment of emotional warfare/blackmail, verbal abuse and controlling behavior. Often the victim of the abuse would say that she is somehow the cause of her abuse, that she deserved it. Just like someone in The Hole would say if asked by law enforcement. Yet there are domestic violence laws in place to try and help even if the woman cannot yet take those first steps. My original question is how our government decides what defines the illegalities that enable them to move in and do something about the various situations these cults create. How can our leaders grant religious protection to the abuses and human rights violations perpetrated by CO$ but decide to investigate abuses in some other cult? Abuse is abuse, I cannot believe that lawmakers are unable to define the line between religion and abuse in such a way that people can be protected. Especially when there are glaring violations such as the way people are worked and not paid and the way they are punished. What about OSHA laws and regulations for all the building that DM has unlicensed, unskilled people engaging in? In Amy Scobee’s book there were young people doing work that would get any other contractor fined into all of his future lives for. Scientology uses the “well the person knows what our rules are, they can leave if they want to” excuse. But can they really? No. Because of the manipulation and brain washing and further because Xenia help you if you do try and tap out.
Where does it become necessary for an outside force to step in? What amount of mind screwing does it take to render one unable to make logical, cognitive, free choices for oneself and when is it time for someone to step in and protect those who cannot?
I wonder if that could be challenged in court. Most of the “religious workers” at the Flag Land Base, for example, are changing bed linens or preparing food in the restaurants. Lots of “religious workers” in the Mill making furniture with automated wood working equipment.
I am not a lawyer, but my guess is someone would have to come forward and challenge it, report it to the Labor Board or bring a lawsuit. Those still working there would immediately be dumped on the streets if they tried something like that. And most who leave are too cowed to do it. Then when they have recovered and get excited about it years later, the statute of limitations has passed.
Still it seems like a great injustice, especially when you consider the retirement plan options. “Work until you drop in the traces”.
Well, I don’t think there’s a case to be made. Ever since the beginning of western monasticism (St. Benedict and his Rule, pretty much), there’s been a tradition of monks doing MEST work. Monasteries were meant to be self-sufficient, so monks grew their own food, brewed their own ale, even made their own cells. Even today, you’ve got religious communities doing things from making their own knick-knacks to brewing their own beer to increase income. All Scientology has to say is that they’re following in that tradition. The difference, of course, is that Scientology does nothing to provide spiritual comfort for their religious workers.
Espiando, that’s a good catch.
The tax and legal catch, however, is that organizations that provide significant services in competition with commercial enterprises, such as hospitals run by religious orders, can only be religious non-profits – a classification below a church or religion, and one that carries additional restrictions and requirements including the filing of tax returns.
Also, as I understand it, residential religious orders, which don’t directly provide significant public benefits, but do which provide significant private benefits to members such as room and board, can also only be classified as religious-non profits (specifically, apparently, 501(d) ). I believe that the Sea Org currently skirts this by not being legally organized, and instead providing staff (but not necessarily all of it) for Scientology’s “church” organizations.
Like much around Scientology’s agreement with the IRS, this all seems dubious given what is actually going on, and the direction that the organization is currently taking, and so is subject to being challenged. As I’ve written before, I suspect that Scientology or at least parts of it may ultimately be subject to downgrade to religious non-profits, and that the financial information that they are then required to report, will reveal facts leading to further downgrades or outright revocation.
LRH says in KSW “The whole agonized future of this planet, every man, woman and child on it, and your own destiny for the next endless trillions of years depend on what you do here and now with and in Scientology.”
So Ron, if this is the case why did you die of a heart attack (or stroke..) so early in your life and now you’re apparently circling Target 2 – that’s not very effing helpful to save the whole agonized future of this planet.
I smell out-exchange.
Well, it wasn’t early in life. The old smelly fraud outlived his three score and ten by over four years. In Scientology’s mind, the extra four years was a reward from the Life Force/Karma for him providing “the key to mankind’s freedom”. Or they’d rationalize it anyone way. Who knows with them?
Espiando, love it! You are so right, other than the fact that they have no idea he died alone, without family in an effing motor home chasing non-existent BTs. They’ll never wake up. So blind.
I’m so sick of his total BS!
Now lets list how DM lives. The befits he gets.
Ah yes, Kevin, full grown adults do fall for this crap. And they put their kids in it, too!
Hubbard always operated on the “criminal” exchange” level with scamology. An overall damaging product for lots of money. That’s why by the mid 70’s it was collapsing.
As a ‘never in’, I feel so badly for these people. They’re probably very kind.caring people, who think they’re doing good things. Most likely have low self esteem and are being led by a money hungry, evil tyrant and his minions. They have no future, no pensions, no money…..those in as children probably have little or no education…….no wonder they’re afraid to leave. I think the government should move in, take all of DM’s money (although it’s probably hidden off-shore) and set up a fund to help people when they leave.
I would love to have a face to face with tom cruise and ask him if he REALLY believes all this garbage or is he just taking advantage of all the free stuff he gets from this NUT who seems to adore him. I really hope the leaders in scientology get their due someday SOON. GO MIKE AND LEAH!!!!!!! 🙂
The interesting but hard to get ‘your thinking gear around’ part of all this is the concept that people like Miscavige, Cruise et al actually “get off” on what they have created and the position they now find themselves in and continue to pitch to each other. This “BIG BEING” pecking order Cruise rambles on about is very real to him, IT HAS TO BE THAT WAY!
Even pondering the use Scientology’s simple concepts of the mind’s use of justifications to nullify the crime/overt – just imagine for a moment what Miscavige and Cruise will talk about while they sip the finest whisky in the world and look down at Flag from Cruise’s multi-million dollar penthouse overlooking Clearwater.
Don’t kid yourself, they are insane!
I used to like Tom Cruise. The more I read about him and his involvement with scientology, the more I despise him now. I will never spend a cent on anything he is involved in, and many, many people have told me the same. I honestly recommending a boycott of all celebrities in scientology.
I’ve told this story before. But it is in context:
In a past wife-time I was married to Likki from the Incredible Stringband. Here in the states, after the band broke up, Likki started having mental and emotional problems; she’d been auditing OT 3 X for years sometimes 8hrs a day. When she was in Saint Hill she got an award for, in think, 40 hrs a week!
RUNNING SPACE ALIENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Any way, during our marriage she shows me a letter from a flag missionaire. It stated that flag sent a mission to the U.K. to find out how all U.K. staff became Scientologists.
The finding was 60 PERCENT OF ALL OF THE UK STAFF BECAME SCIENTOLOGISTS THROUGH THE INCREDIBLE STRINGBAND, THE BAND SHE WAS IN!!!!!!!!!
Ok, that’s some awesome contribution don’t you think? That’s a debt that the church should incur through this policy of exchange, don’t you think?
Back to Likki;
Now, in the states, somewhat penniless she starts down a dark mental road. We all were “knowing” that it’s was her next step holding her back. We “knew she needed NED auditing. With my eye on the carrot of salvation I went to AO to get her some auditing.
Knowing that LRH was all about “exchange” I sought to make the argument at AO that this women was responsible for getting me, friends of mine and 60 percent of the entire U.K. Staff. Surely AO will seek to be in exchange with her and get her some auditing.
Nada, they made her sign a waiver that if she killed herself Scientolgy and LRon Hubbard would not be responsible.
I was outraged. They coddled her and even had the celeb handler Spanky be her celeb stroker. But after he money went bye bye, so went the support of the church.
Out exchange? This time period is late 70s.
This insidious, hypocritical con game has been going on since the beginning.
The wishful thinking that there use to be a benevolent Scientology is make believe.
Maybe it was the cigarette infested, drunkard wild parties and “power on the 2d” that we were all remembering.
With “wog morality” on the chopping block, there b a lotta hooking up back then.
The parties were fabulous!
Exchange???? That’s just a buzz word by Ron to instill in us justification for the overpriced hypno-mind-fuck.
Likki became a homeless person. She was last seen crossing the Arizona desert on foot.
L Ron Hubbard was not a good man. A large portion of what he created is evil.
My definition of evil: that which causes suffering.
Much suffering has been created by “man’s only hope”, “the only way out”, “the incarnation of the buddha” (small b intentional),
“The worlds most advanced science of the mind and spirit,” “the one true way”.
L Ron Hubbard was a master manipulator of human values. He did this consciously.
I think what Ron really meant when he said ‘survival’ was the fundamental purpose of life, I think he was really embracing the concept of greed.
Survival? The greatest purpose of life? Now that I look at it, survival is a pretty bone headed-caveman-ish-MEST motivated reason to live.
L Ron Hubbard imprinted madness into all of us who allowed him into our cognitive faculties.
And if you think you never did? Ask yourself this question:
Remember the time when you thought ALL CRITICS ARE CRIMINALS!
We all wished we could have spent time with the Commodore. Now we are working to extricate him from our mental constructs.
The first step is the rehabilitation of sovereign criticism.
When logic and reason is applied to Hubbard……………..
Humpty falls, the emperor has no clothes, the wicked witch melts, the silver bullet makes it’s target.
By using our power of discriminating intelligence, reason and logic; L Ron Hubbard stands revealed in his as ised state;
A LIAR WITH A DERANGED MIND, A HUNGRY GHOST DESPERATELY CRAVING SLAVES AND MINIONS TO FILL THE HOLES IN HIS SOUL.
I believe that those of us that were in as teens have the greatest work to do. And those in from birth maybe even more.
Those that became cult slaves as adults may have it easier to resolve because of more experience with life?
There is still much work to do.
The death of wise men become yearly celebrations for their students. A commemoration of an example to follow.
L Ron Hubbard’s death was I lie, just like his life:
It was orchestrated to hide the truth and make a myth. All lies, just like he intended.
“Likki started having mental and emotional problems; she’d been auditing OT 3 X for years sometimes 8hrs a day.”
She’s not the only who’s gone mad while putting in long hours on a regular basis over a period of years. Elron himself was mad as a hatter, and chasing away the BTs until his dying days. Many others fall seriously ill prematurely or become even more noticeably demented than “normal” $cilons are. Still more end up bankrupt after indebting themselves far beyond their ability to sustain.
It isn’t just that $cn sells ineffective exorcism ritual/spiritual counseling, it’s also that it can actually create or precipitate serious mental illness, especially in those who have been auditing its advanced “space opera” level processes for some time.
Perhaps Likki didn’t go mad because of $cn, but it obviously didn’t turn her into some sort of thetanic super being. That point aside, what you can say for sure is that a real caring and compassionate church family would have been there for her, which is the exact opposite of what the Co$ did for her. If that was just a one-off story, like cultists would have you believe, then it wouldn’t warrant blanket condemnation of the cherch; but her story is similar to the story of every $cilon who is no longer actively providing the cherch with cash or labor.
Once you have no more to give, the cult has no more use for you.
For me Harpoona, that was the first crack in my cult brain.
When AO refused to give her the help she needed, they help we all believed Ron offered OTs, the help that was sold to us……………
THAT WAS MY FLOATING TA COGNITION THAT SCIENTOLOGY WAS IN FACT NOT A RELIGION BUT A BUISNESS.
In any other church there would be people there to help Likki and comfort her.
Likki was offered a suicide waiver. That was the extent of the caring for someone who gave her life to L Ron Hubbard’s work and help man his orgs.
She helped staff the U.K. by 60 percent.
Her exchange: a suicide waiver.
L Ron Hubbard was the SP, the criminal, the implanter, the anti social personality he warned us about.
“Now we are all working to extricate him from our mental constructs.”
That is my reason for reading this blog and others where former scientologists can communicate criticism about Scientology.
I was “on lines” public for 8 years and $94,000. After I left 25 years ago, I stayed very low-key, never revealing to anyone my involvement in Scn. (Even while I was in, only few people knew, as I didn’t tell most people I knew.)
However I had much anger and confusion about my experiences that I wanted to communicate.I was angry about how something that I felt helped my life in the beginning could turn into this time and money consuming activity that I couldn’t control. I felt totally betrayed after being helped. I had it’s debt for years after I left. And to top it off I still thought of L.Ron Hubbard as being a genius who was misunderstood. I still would not be critical of him ( “critical” in the critical-thinking sense.) Also I still used scientology concepts in my thinking and evaluating. Concepts such as SP-PTS, In-exchange Out-exchange, Dev-T, Tone Levels, Degraded beings, Cycles etc. I was still “thinking” as a scientologist, which means I was still thinking like L.Ron Hubbard.
That all changed after viewing “Aftermath”.
I actually didn’t want to watch it at first as I had mixed feelings (confusion) about my experiences and didn’t know how it would affect me. (I thought for years maybe I just didn’t “get” Scientology like the others who I knew who seemed devoted to it.)
That show was a game-changer for me. Since then I’ve read “Bare-faced Messiah”, “A Piece of Blue Sky”, “Going Clear” and “L. Ron Hubbard: Madman of Messiah”. I read this blog and Tony Ortega’s daily, occasionally commenting. I’ve watched YouTube videos by former scientologists and others. I’ve gone online and found “The Affirmations of L.Ron Hubbard.”
For years all I knew of L.Ron Hubbard is what Chuch promo said about him, which was written by him! I’m now steadily extricating him from my mental constructs. There is still much work to do.
Thank you to all the former scientologists on this site. And most of all to Mike and Leah for all the personal sacrifices and attacks they’re taking for getting out the truth.
I’m glad you got to see Aftermath, from what you’ve said you would have been vulnerable as a ‘recovery cycle’. They will actually go out years later to try and re-recruit people who still believe in ‘the tech’.
I was off lines for many years and was recovered as I still believed in scientology, later when I got truly pissed off and left for a second time I made a point of seeing what people were saying on the internet and in books, etc, this has saved me from ever wanting to go back.
Thanks, Carl, for that moving and heartfelt story. I wish you continued peace and strength in your recovery.
Amazing post Carl. Glad you shared. Sounds like you are doing fine.
Glad you extricated yourself from the cult, Carl. I can feel your pain through your words. But now, you’re totally free from the cult. And…you got your old life back! Congrats, friend & keep posting…
Wow, Carl, your story really moved me. Thank you. You’ve said a lot but one thing for sure, your post and others have proved to me that it is never too late to speak out against tyranny. You never know how many people one person can reach.
Your welcome. For years I’ve wanted to tell my thoughts on my experiences in Scn but couldn’t do it while I was still in because I didn’t know who I could trust. Once out I wanted to forget about it, but I was still thinking and evaluating life through scientology thought. I really needed to find former scientologists to communicate with. The people who post here have been a godsend.
Best to you and yours Carl.
A sad Story about Likki. She deserved better no doubt. She ALSO deserved Standard Tech, which she obviously did NOT get. OTIII is a very powerful level. Run Standardly it produces what it claims, Freedom from Overwhelm. Run Out Tech, as in Likki’s case and it ruins people. I only hope she found/finds a good auditor Outside the CoS and gets corrected.
My hope is that she stays away from the hypno-mind-fuck of make believe.
Freedom from overwhelm? I knew so many OT VIIs and OT IIIs who were just normal people with make believe states of being.
The rationale that correct Scientology wasn’t run and that’s why people aren’t getting what was promoted, I’m sorry to say, is a construct made by Ron that justifies auditing that does not diliver what’s promised.
Are there cognitions and insights to be had looking within?
Absolutely. The lie is that Ron knew the road, mapped out the road and all of it was standard.
Lie, BS.
Likki was being CSed by the best of Saint Hill and AO. She was dealt with what was available at the time.
Standard tech is a hypnotic-pipe dream.
What’s not a pipe dream is seeing the true nature of something that auditing can do from time to time.
But that is the cheese. The thwaap on the neck is the lies and delusions that the mind associates with real perceptions of truth.
And when make believe cannot be differentiated from true experiences; that’s when the mind caves in to the delusional make believe of Ron’s unique messiahship.
BS
She DID get Standard Tech Applied Standardly. What happened to Licorice occurred while L. Fraud was still alive and still putting out HCOBs and HCOPLs. She went crazy on OTIII Expanded, which Indies still believe in doing. But there’s always an excuse for situations like this with people like you, isn’t there? “Overrun”, “out-tech”…bullshit. The Great and Powerful Tech works 100% of the time when applied standardly, so if it doesn’t work, something must have not been applied standardly. That’s a lie; it doesn’t work, and it never has. Pimping the Tech like you do is contributing to people’s destruction.
Scientology is, at best, fraudulent from the OCA to OTVIII and, at worst, harmful in the extreme, to the point of death. Lisa McPherson would still be alive today if not for the Tech and certainly if not for the man who decided on a whim to be her C/S, the Toxic Dwarf.
Yes, Miscavige has blood on his hands. Scientology or no Scientology – what he did was culpable and she indeed would alive today if Flag wasn’t run by an asshole like him. It could be suggested it was a homicide he got away with… but unless you know the tech angle of the Cof$ the legal mumbo jumbo took the place of ignorance of the part of the law being incapable of understanding & comprehending the motives behind her death. It was no accident. But we know what went down and a lot of others are waking up to the truth of it too. Sleeping well you little Toxic Dwarf? Karma struts her stuff in all sorts of ways.
Tim – S – “Freedom from overwhelm” ???
Dude – you need to go ALL the way down that rabbit hole. You are still under Hubbard’s hypsnosis and mind control
There is NO Xenu – it is all made up. Just because you “believe” does not mean it is true. It is based on faith – not science.
Break free my friend – get crystal clear with the TRUTH. Go all the way today!!
I love the reason class 5 orgs are insolvent! May the lack of exchanging anything the public wants extend to the upper orgs as well. Soon.
I used to have a still in friend who was adamant about keeping in his exchange. He could not quite grasp that you could buy him a cup of coffee without being reimbursed. It took two of us tag teaming to explain that friendship alone is his exchange. Is there an upper level rundown to clear someone of the concept of friendship?
God help those who endure sec checks for years on end.
“An upper level rundown to clear someone of the concept of friendship.” Interesting term you’ve got there my friend. Scientology as a operating system does exactly that from the bait and switch methodology began at its philosophical introduction to a person and continues it until the recipient either leaves, is thrown out or is fully cult indoctrinated. Scientology clears away friendship, love, interpersonal devotion and a hole swag of human attributes we as humans cherish but aren’t always successful in obtaining or holding. Scientology systematically wipes/clears them from it’s members and will actually punish them for having or displaying human values or aspirations.
I gave a decade of my life being in an insolvent org – it is very far removed from my list of things to love because it’s an indicator of the collapse of Scientology being out exchange. The lack of exchange is what the Scientology Organisation has always been based upon. A very tough lesson to learn the hard way!
Ed: “He could not quite grasp that you could buy him a cup of coffee without being reimbursed. It took two of us tag teaming to explain that friendship alone is his exchange. Is there an upper level rundown to clear someone of the concept of friendship?”
That concept is right there in one of the HCO PL’s (policy letters) that was quoted in the blog post, which includes this:
“There are numbers of ways these flows of Exchange can be unbalanced.
“It does not go same out as comes in. Equal amounts are no factor. Who can measure good will or friendship?” HCO PL 4 April 1972, ETHICS
But I don’t doubt what you wrote about your still-in friend not knowing the above. This is an example of how church members, both staff and public, have misunderstood and misapplied what was actually written. Later, they blamed it all on Hubbard. He does deserve blame in some ways, but a lot of it goes to the rest of us who went along with the groupthink. If we had been careful to compare what the group was saying to what was actually written, we may have avoided the downhill slide – and the positive things about Scientology might have outweighed the negative.
We should at least have learned our lesson about accepting groupthink without question. But the same mistake continues. A lot of what is written in blog posts and comments about what Scientology consists of isn’t actually true, but readers still accept the group think about it. In some cases they really did experience what is being said – as it was already group think back then.
Thanks Marildi and yawnalot, you two are deep thinkers on this subject
I was deep once, but, it gave me a headache. So I quit going deep…
Don’t put that on bumper sticker… no one will want to understand!
To late…
Remind me to tell you about the time I stared deep into the heart of an artichoke.
I hope you had drawn butter. It makes the heart taste fantastic!
My wife eats those… I just don’t see what that weed has to offer in the way of culinary delights. May as well have a lawn clipping salad as far I’m concerned. Maybe with ranch it’d be palatable?
I don’t think I’m a deep thinker on this subject anymore than a 60 yr old mechanic is a deep thinker on automotive design but thanks for the sentiment in your comment.
I will say however I’ve gotten more gain from Scientology by being out of Scientology and taking this stance of majorly criticizing it. The coercive subtleties contained within in the subject are truly ripening and falling out of the tree. Only an idiot would believe anything that comes out of organised Scientology. Hubbard ran a fine line with some pretty remarkable theories, especially back in the 50/60s but his personality infected it all and it turned out to be a subterfuge and flim flam man’s dream come true what happened to it. I found some auditing fun and some concepts useful for me personally but I find similar things in other avenues of knowledge & experience too. Scientology has it’s place in the general scheme of experience for me now, same as some of the military work I did and then being a businessman and shop-owner etc. I believe Scientology never had to be the way it turned out to be, a criminal enterprise, but hey, that’s life.
Maybe it had to turn out the way it did because there isn’t a product called “Total Freedom” available with it and it’s just all a big lie. I like to not believe that totally the same way some people will swear on a stack of Bibles that God exists but I’ve never seen him/her/it or had him/her/it give me a reason why as humans we fuck each other over for political entertainment. Or why wars are raged in the name of religious beliefs – silly isn’t it?
IMO being self-determined in it’s pure sense, is, by observation is not obtainable by someone else telling you how to do it.
Miraldi, you make excellent points. Most Scns never really knew their religion because they didn’t read and understand the many writings of LRH. And so group think took over and replaced having to do your own due diligence to understand and make sure you availed yourself of the readings. It is the lazy man’s way out to have someone else tell you what to think and interpret the tech for you.
To my way of thinking, “due diligence” in studying a new subject always involves taking a critical stance toward what you’re being told, who’s telling it to you and how it’s being told to you. $cn allows no mutual discussion, skepticism, questioning, elaboration, clarification, etc. It is literally Ron’s way or the highway, which is the very first huge red flag that anyone who was actually doing their due diligence as a critical thinker would run into in $cn.
You can’t become a freed spiritual being with a mind that is not free to think and believe whatever you like…it really IS as simple as that!
Cindy: “It is the lazy man’s way out to have someone else tell you what to think and interpret the tech for you.”
Right, Cindy. I feel lucky to have learned that lesson. And it isn’t just Scientologists who make the mistake – many former Scientologists as well are still accepting the interpretations of others. A similar thing is accepting what people say about their personal experiences with the tech without bearing in mind that we don’t know all the circumstances.
As an example of that, a friend of mine spent several years as a NOTs auditor at Flag (this was in the early years before certain out tech in NOTs started). He told me that many pcs (himself included) had great gains from NOTs but that some others didn’t. He doesn’t really know why that was the case but said it could have been that they weren’t properly set up for it, including their solo-auditor skills – or it could be that NOTs isn’t right for all pcs. He’s an example of someone who has great confidence in the tech overall, but doesn’t have fixed beliefs even in what LRH said. It works both ways.
Thanks for your ack. 🙂
M, you quote Elron as saying, “Who can measure good will or friendship?” HCO PL 4 April 1972, ETHICS
He’s asking it rhetorically, as if to say those things were beyond all measuring, but if it were put to Elron himself as a direct question, the only honest answer he could give would be: “Certainly not me because I know nothing of either”
Trying to pull some isolated nugget of wisdom out from under the heaping pile of the batshit mad, applied minfuckery that is at the core of the cult’s most central beliefs and doctrines is like being an escaped N.korean defector who still looks to Juche ideology (see here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juche ) for guidance in life.
You’ve escaped, so why not get all the way out of the cult’s mind control grasp and quit trying to polish the turd which is $cn in its most essential form?
HF, here’s a reference regarding the logical fallacy you just committed:
“Appeal to Emotion: (also known as: argument by vehemence, playing on emotions, emotional appeal, for the children)
“Description: This is the general category of many fallacies that use emotion in place of reason in order to attempt to win the argument. It is a type of manipulation used in place of valid logic.”
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/29/Appeal_to_Emotion
marildi, Harpoona is offering a suggestion, not advancing an argument and therefore is not under the jurisdiction of logical fallacies. He does compare you to a N. Korean escapee who still thinks per the old regime indoctrination. You have to admit the comparison is a valid one given his point of view.
He points out your proclivity to “pull some isolated nugget of wisdom…” in order to legitimize the entire body of Hubbard’s otherwise checkered work. That is an observation.
Harpoona is frying smaller fish right now than proving scientology is “applied mindfuckery”. He is merely referencing that local and widespread opinion in order to suggest, presumably for your own good, that you free yourself from it.
Clearly that advice is unwelcome to you but better to tell him off than to try to dead agent him, scientology style, with charges that don’t apply.
“Harpoona is offering a suggestion, not advancing an argument…He does compare you to a N. Korean escapee who still thinks per the old regime indoctrination.”
That’s an argument by definition – an Ad Hom argument as well as the general Appeal to Emotion fallacy as in the rest of his post. And of course logical fallacies don’t come across as true arguments – that’s the point.
marildi, an argument is simply a verbal attempt to persuade. Sometimes the absence of factors that constitute a valid argument means it isn’t an argument. It may instead be, 1. a suggestion, 2. an opinion, 3. a complaint, 4. an insult, 5. a joke, 6. scientology
BTW, an appeal to emotion is not a logical fallacy unless it is used instead of a rational argument. It can be included in a rational argument without breaking any ordinances.
Also, an analogy (for instance, about a N. Korean escapee who still thinks along the Party line) doesn’t constitute an argument. An analogy cannot prove or disprove an assertion and therefore doesn’t fall within the jurisdiction of logical fallacies.
And finally: a burden of proof is incumbent upon all who make an assertion, and that includes the assertion a logical fallacy has been committed. If you don’t prove it you commit the logical fallacy of ‘being awfully tiresome’.
I’m glad we had this talk.
I’ve got better things to do than to beat my head agains a couple of brick walls. 😛
marildi, I hope that you recognize that last statement for the fallacy that it is 🙂
And I hope you’re actually still paying attention. I do wish you could find some way to be involved here, that was reasonably “workable” for all parties concerned. It seems to me that recently you’ve tried to avoid dragging things out endlessly (which is a kindness to our proprietor, if nothing else), but remain unwilling to accept that almost no one agrees that there is anything wonderful about Hubbard or Scientology to discuss.
marildi, please go back to https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ – which I believe you have cited before, and to which I have previously directed you – and see the Fallacy Fallacy. It’s a fallacy itself to assume that the commission of a fallacy necessarily negates an argument; and perhaps more importantly, the burden is on you to explain why you think a fallacy has been committed, and how that applies to (and undermines) the argument being put forth, rather than just throwing out the claim of fallacious argumentation.
I agree that the comment that you referred to, is not itself a complete argument. I took it as sort of a summary of previous arguments made, but I’d be interested to see you critique it thoroughly so that we can actually know what your objections are.
Marildi, you give great credibility to Ron’s words and label frequently those critical of Ron as not understanding Ron’s words.
Give us a hand and help us to understand these words, as my take is he is a deranged madman immune from scrutiny or a hypnotic operator creating doctrines to destroy scrutiny; criticism.
“Now get this as a technical fact. Not a hopeful idea. Every time we have investigated the background of a critic of scientology we have found crimes for which that person or group could be imprisoned under existing law. We do not find critics of Scientology who do not have criminal pasts. Over and over we prove this.” L Ron Hubbard.
Can you please explain to us the true meaning of this critic doctrine, as you claim to respect the true true meaning of Ron’s words? Help us out and explain.
And do you understand these words of Ron’s, of which you give great credibility, that he researched critics?
The ultimate ‘out-exchange’ is scientology offering the attainment of spiritual states that don’t exist for LOTS of money. There are no ‘clears’ no ‘OTs’ and (at the risk of offending my indie and ex-ex friends) no ‘releases’.
There sure seem to be scientologists well up the so called bridge who have plenty of problems, communication issues, unrecovered educations and are ‘ser-facky’ as hell. Just like the rest of us.
Perfectly said, Ms. B! It’s all make believe. People are throwing money away for a concept. Scientology may well go down as one of the greatest scams in the history of cultdom.
Thank God they don’t have guns!
I Yawnalot said: “Thank God they don’t have guns”
but they DO. Armed guards at the compound near Hemet; Private armed security “protecting” Shelly; I even believe I saw something about the “heat” Davey boy held personally, no doubt required by the plethora of death threats he says he has received. More likely it’s compensation for what he doesn’t have in his pocket. And he’s awfully obsessed about “s*cking d*ck on Hollywood Blvd”, isn’t he? By all accounts and observation, he’s a moderately intelligent guy, so I’d expect a LITTLE more imagination in choosing insults.
Yes, you are right, around Miscavige they sure would be. I was more meaning that being armed at an org level or some policy inciting the ownership of firearms for religious protection or some such nonsense. Scientologists have a tendency to be extremely silly even with the most simple of concepts.
Can’t say I can align myself with Miscavige being a moderately intelligent guy. He’s a quick thinking psychotic who has all the basic instincts of Hannibal Lecker. Intelligence, if measured in staying alive and in power, he rates as a successful psychopath.
(A psychopath doesn’t have a conscience. If he lies to you so he can steal your money, he won’t feel any moral qualms, though he may pretend to. He may observe others and then act the way they do so he’s not “found out,” Tompkins says).
They have weapons alright! And this is a church???
I had a thought about that. I would hazard a guess Miscavige would never allow a Scientologist to be armed anywhere near him. Security personal on his payroll yes. Does anyone know the facts of who is permitted to carry weapons in Scientology?
Whichever way you look at it guns and Scientology is scary to comprehend. Rex Fowler would agree.
TC,
As I said before, you are writing a book. Your insights are invaluable. Thanks from a longtime member who has mulled over all you have written down. You are kicking butt!
I don’t mean this comment to be unkind and I have watched the documentary with you and Leah, but I find it hard to credit that someone could be stupid enough to fall for all this? The more I read the more my mind boggles. Do they get these people as children or is it full grown adults falling for it? The State should be doing more to combat this and should declare Scientology a cult.
Hi Kevin. I’m a never-in myself, and I used to have the same thoughts, wondering how anyone would get into this thing in the first place and even after they’re in, why they don’t just walk away from it all. But that all changed after watching Aftermath (especially when Mary Kahn uttered the words “they owned me” when she realized how utterly helpless she was against them). And while I may not fully understand how things work in Scientology, here are some thoughts to possibly consider based on my very limited understanding.
Many individuals (perhaps the vast majority of current Scientologists) are born into this life or indoctrinated at a very early age, and it’s all they’ve ever known or believed. As for the never-ins who get sucked in, especially for those folks who know little to nothing about Scientology whatsoever, the initial courses can seem very beneficial and harmless (the hook).
Then you start experiencing “wins” during auditing, where you feel better about yourself after talking through your problems with an auditor (similar to the temporary euphoria many feel after speaking with a psychiatrist, simply from “talking it out”). They are told that they are progressing well and they truly feel as though they are close to living a happier and more productive life, and they get reeled into this mental state even deeper (the line).
Then for those that have already spent a considerable amount of time and money, who believe that the major gains are right around the corner, and who have made many friends and quite possibly pulled in family members, they may actually grow wary of it and decide to leave, yet they learn about extremely severe repurcussions if they do so…..all the way from a sec-check, which is basically an interrogation (that they have to pay for) up to possibly losing their job (if they work for a Scientologist) and even sometimes up to disconnection and possibly Fair Gaming, especially if they don’t “toe the line” according to the demands the organization will place upon them, such as not speaking publicly about their leaving. Sometimes people feel as though it’s best to just continue to go along instead of potentially facing these draconian punishments (the sinker).
Even though reading about it only takes a couple of minutes, and watching an episode of Aftermath discussing someone’s story only takes about an hour, it’s not that simple. The indoctrination is extremely slow and takes many months and years to get someone “mentally reprogrammed” to think in a different way. They don’t learn about the “Xenu stuff” or whatever until much later, if they even make it to that level.
It’s easy for us never-ins to proclaim that we would never allow ourselves to get indoctrinated like this. But I believe it’s important to keep in mind two things about that way of thinking:
1. Unless we’ve been through something ourselves, including all of the experiences and variables that someone else has gone through, it’s truly difficult to make any kind of a fair assertation for how we would respond if placed in similar circumstances, and,
2. Until recently, particularly after the Going Clear documentary (and book) and the Aftermath show (with Leah’s celebrity power and Mike’s hands-on experience at the highest levels), there was not even close to the level of exposure that we currently have available.
We must be careful to not get caught in the trap of believing that we personally would never be susceptible to this kind of indoctrination. I’m sure every former Scientologist believed the same about themselves as well. If we believe it could never happen to us, then we are only letting our guard down and leave ourselves even more open to being influenced by nefarious groups and individuals.
That’s why continuing with the exposure of the abuses of this organization is so important…..to keep raising awareness so others don’t fall into this trap.
Let’s not forget what COULD be better than basically “SAVCNG THE PLANET as a come on to join forces with other like minded people. People who are looking to “heling others be better people”….
Some got in back in the 1960’s as I mentioned a few times during the “Flower Children Generation” ….peace love and harmony & saving the planet was the “real deal” back then. Young people wanted something different than what they THOUGHT was the ‘hum drum life” their parents & everyone else were living….literally SUCKED IN to a FANTASY.
I have said it myself as a never in…..I’ve known friends in the 1960’s who joined the Moonies and the Hare Krishna for the same reason……they wanted “something different”….some were in for a year or so, some much longer. Some got out, made another life….some were LOST and had no direction, alcohol, drugs, etc….some were killed by their addiction.
Since all this has come out, the few I am in contact with say the same thing…HOW THE HELL did I EVER get involved with THAT?? & they are really pissed off at themselves to this day, decades and decades later, they SITLL wonder why.
For me at the same age they were back then….it was LOGIC & COMMON SENSE…..My Dad once said : “you can have all the brains in the world and all the college degrees in the world but if you don’t have “Common Sense”…you have nothing”……..THAT played in my head over and over again throughout my life & kept me OUT of anything remotely like CO$.
Good insight Mick, and I am beyond THRILLED to see MANY “never ins” now on board!
Exactly right, Mick Roberts.
My brother is a college-educated physics genius who had been sucked into the Sta-Power pyramid scam by an old family friend in the early 1970s right after he finished college. After enduring vicious brain-washing type training within Sta-Power home offices in the Twin Cities over a long weekend, he emerged unhinged and suicidal.
Severely depressed and suicidal, he was walking down Lake Street in Minneapolis when he came across a store-front featuring books in the window. He loved books, so he stepped inside out of curiosity and was greeted with open arms by a $cientology worker. And thus it began.
I hate to credit $centology with anything good, but I can’t deny that they probably saved his life. He joined that day and has been a member ever since with a possible exception where he may have been thrown out for who knows what and went to work in the oil fields and later built x ray machines for a time. He never offered any explanations for any of his activities during that period.
Today he remains in Clearwater with his wife and is nearly 70. Unless something drastically changes, I imagine he will die in the COS trenches.
Kevin McCaughey- Yes, it is hard for those of us who are Never-Ins to understand how intelligent, right thinking people could be caught up in any cult. However that is just the point. No intelligent, right thinking person WOULD get caught up in any cult. No member of Scientology would walk up to a random person on the street and announce; “Hey there! We believe in body thetans, Xanu and space ships, etc. we would just love it if you joined us in our group wherein you will face financial ruin, little food or sleep, mental, physical and emotional abuse and manipulation and where your friends will tattle on you in a New York minute. Oh, and also where you will be encouraged to disconnect from your family and lose the support of all your loved ones if you don’t tow the line. Join us!”
It just doesn’t work like that. Cults use a variety of very effective, time proven methods of slowly easing its members deeper and deeper into the fold. Scientology, especially, uses some very solid, enticing bait to hook new members. In fairness, most of us have things we struggle with. Things that we are searching for or fighting with in our lives. Scientology offers the person exactly what he or she is looking for- help, answers and support in those struggles. I, personally, struggle with the memories of an abusive childhood and the loss of family. Scientology in my case would focus on my longing for family, my longing to belong and fit in and be wanted in order to draw me in. I would be shown all the great opportunities to be part of “Something wonderful”. Once started on the path the guidance further and further into the inane would be so gentle, so subtle that I would continue to go along with even the things that my brain is telling me are not normal because I would not want to lose that connection. My handlers would be telling me all along the way that if I just keep going it will all be made clear. My answers are all just around the next corner (or step on the Bridge). Some really can’t keep going but the rest do. For years. The people who join Scientology, and I am talking about the adults here, not children who are brought up within the closed society of the organization with no reference points, are just like everyone else for the most part. Mike Rinder, Amy Scobee, Marty Rathbun, Leah and others who have blown are all intelligent people with the best of intentions. Scientology offers good, kindly intentioned people the idea that they can help. Can make a difference in their own lives as well as for the greater good. Of course for those of us on the outside who are given the big picture from the get-go it is easy to ask “How on earth…?” But for the people who were drawn in and subjected to the slow, methodical, emotional abuse; those who are only fed small pieces bit by bit, it isn’t about intelligence but about manipulation and the wearing down of the individual until only the collective is left. Cult members are actively encouraged to think with the group not as an individual. From the outside it is easy to question “How”. I did the same thing. But after reading the experiences of the people on this blog and others and after reading most of the books on Mike’s list I have begun to rethink such a pat question. These are not unintelligent, gullible or somehow less than normal people. Rather, from everything I have seen and read, they are good hearted, decent human beings who thought and believed they were helping save the planet from all the crap going on today. Given the current state of our own country let alone the world, I can understand the desire to try and heal, help and make things better. Isn’t it natural for us all to want peace and happiness in our lives rather than all the negativity, anger, hate and madness that we are faced with every time we turn on the TV? My personal opinion has changed. I’ve shifted from “How on earth…?” towards the people who have managed to break away and try to continue their fight for good to “How can we stop DM” from further using, abusing and trying to break good, decent people. I would highly recommend reading at least some of the books Mike suggests. I really helps broaden an understanding of what really is going on with Scientology and it’s insidious way of doing things.
Oh I have no doubt it is decent people that are getting conned. All the people I have heard from in the “Aftermath” documentary seem intelligent, thoughtful, decent people.
Check out Chris Shelton’s videos on https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF326xyA0QHI7Z5xAwKQDJg.
You’re not being unkind with such a comment, you just haven’t been well enough informed. Chris explains it better than anyone else I’ve come across the concepts of why someone gets involved with and does what they do in Scientology, and other cults for that matter.
Ever seen an infomercial and been tempted to buy or actually bought by calling the toll free number? Most everyone is tempted from time to time. Just spent the afternoon washing and scrubbing the car, then the Super-Duper power hose comes on and tells you that car washing the old way can now be a thing of the past. Wash that car in minutes not hours. But wait there’s more…
The right pitch at the right time can hook even the most skeptical and cautious. Many scientologists, past and present, are smart and successful. Until recently, it was not easy to see all the damage that was being done by the church.
If you look through history, swindlers and con men have been notorious for fooling intelligent people to part with large sums of money to finance their dubious schemes. I consider myself a smart guy, but there were and are people in CoS whose intelligence makes mine seem that of a barely literate high school graduate. We are all capable of being duped, I remember reading about a psychology professor who got caught up in a Nigerian E-mail scam. “Ask not for whom the swindle rolls, for it rolls for thee.”
Kevin, from someone who was pulled into it, maybe I can explain a little. There have been many essays, etc about the boiling a frog way of looking at it, but I am thrilled that every day more and more people are asking those questions because it means more and more people are becoming aware of what goes on behind those closed doors.
No one walks into the door of scientology and is introduced to the full blown crazy on their first day in. I was a young adult when I joined. All these years out of it, I still shake my head in awe that I was sucked in. There are two very simple ways they suck you in.
Either you have a “ruin” and they tell you scientology will fix it. No matter what is wrong with you, whether mental or physical ranging from cancer to a recent split with someone, scientology purports to have the “cure”. The caveat: you have to have the money. They pick off the weak in the herd and lure them in to fix them. If you don’t have the money, you are shown the door or the staff contract.
Hook number two: the person’s innate desire to help others. They tell you you are so capable and scientology will make you more so, and you can fix others. That’s how they sucked me in in the 70’s.
From the moment you walk in the door, you are taught the exact opposite of what they claim they are teaching you. On the very basic entry level Comm Course, you are taught how not to communicate, but simply stare and keep your yap shut. They teach you how to strip yourself of all emotion on the very first course you take and teach you that is a good thing.
A friend and I were talking once. His question was “you’re so smart, why did you stay?” The first thing that came out of my mouth and the whole truth of the scientology experience is “they fuck with your head.”
And there you have it in a nutshell.
Valerie,
People today are fortunate that so many ex members are writing their views about their years in Scientology. Great comments.
Thanks for that.I can understand why it is something like that, it must be in order to fool people. Glad you got out 🙂
Hi Kevin, I was never in either, just outraged by the abuse. Reading todays post dragged a deep memory out of me. My stepdad is 94, a retired minister. He told me when he was 16, he had a summer job pumping gas at a service station on I44, between Joplin and Springfield. One Saturday, he told me, hundreds of cars went by and many stopped for gas on their way to Kansas City. He was offered rides, because Jesus was comin to Kansacity. Yeah. The Rapture. They heard about it at the Tent Revival meeting. He said Sunday night, the same people straggled back home, no money, asking for enough gas to get home. Sometimes people in other faiths fall for a bunch of hooey.
That’s a good and relevant story, Gravitysucks. Those folks had scientology-caliber CERTAINTY about the Rapture. They had “knowingness”. The preacher man in the tent spoke the special language those people were susceptible to and they had the insights and revelations that were in accordance with that language. They viewed reality through the distorting lens of that language and for a few minutes they experienced ‘happy magic’. A magic they KNEW was real until, of course, it wasn’t.
Scientologists would object to that comparison but the only argument they can advance which carries any weight is that they MIGHT have a slightly higher intellectual pedigree than the Rapture-ites but otherwise the comparison stands. Mood-altering words are available in all sizes.
Thank you
Roger. Yes, and the magic they “knew”. In Lrh’s words it’s knowingness. That sounds so much more intellectual (edumacated) than just.. faith. Weren’t aren’t there Gnostic cults?
Now? I’m gonna tear my sceptic self away, and find Snake Oil by Steve Earle (kind of a rebel biker poet) on Youtube.
Try to read up on another looney “space ship church”…Heaven’s Gate…..a very sad story of how these members believed so strongly in what they were spoon fed by the cult leader……..