Good luck with that
The only thing they seem to be promoting is how good the Orpheum is. Like it’s an “ideal” venue or something — it is “recently renovated” and it has close parking, it’s right downtown and is “stunningly beautiful.” Even if the video they are going to show is a Rotten Tomatoes 0%er, the place looks good.
And just like every ideal org, you can bet it will be virtually empty.
Grammar Police where are you?
“…the Ideal Org of San Diego is having an unprecedented expansion rate…” Seriously? Where do they find their copywriters? Oh yeah, “wog” education is useless.
Taco ’bout expansion
Is ALL they have been doing in Dallas since their new “ideal org” opened in the boonies. Taco’ing. And these other orgs are somehow relevant why?
Here is a quote I can agree with…
Especially the bit about the falsehoods.
And another one…
Interesting choices to promote this event. Criticizing something? Like scientology?
Grab the reigns…
Or reins I guess. But this is “truely” the most important city on earth. Ah, that “wog” education.
But hold on. That’s not what is important. Just nit-picking really. Hyper-critical.
But this IS important. This org has been “ideal” for more than a DECADE. And they are not even St Hill size yet? In the most important city on earth? With a Class VIII OT VIII super being running the place? No massive expansion here that is for sure. Haven’t even managed the Atalanta 10X in more than 10 YEARS!
Massive, epic, milestone turnout
They arrived by the tens to hear from Dave Petit. Well, there were 10 people there as the photo shows. What, no “crowd” shots?
Good to know
The future of scientology is guaranteed by “4th dynamic campaigns”. Finally they can abandon that Planetary Clearing BS and the 10,000 on, through or ever on Solo NOTs. And the “ideal org” idiocy. None of those are needed at all because the IAS is going to save the day with Criminon and the WTH to ensure the future of scientology (wait, I thought this was non-religious stuff?)
This changes nothing
They are recycling their posters. A few weeks ago this was the poster for Orlando. Before that it was Valley. And it changed nothing (except maybe lightening a few wallets for anyone fool enough to show up)
What is the value of a 50 year Sea Org veteran?
SFA apparently. Send him out to do talks at a MISSION in Seattle? Not even the “ideal org”? Wow. I guess they don’t have many NOTs pc’s if they can send a “Class IX” out to give intro seminars at a Mission.
You still find me around don’t you?
Well, erm, No We Don’t.
But we do still use this quote regularly. They can’t even bring themselves to just leave off the last sentence? Sheer lunacy.
Prosperity Corner
It’s what scientology is all about. Money. Always money. And here are some experts on how to take your money and earn some healthy commissions.
Prosperity is KEY
Of course, if you don’t have any money, you cannot give it to us.
Yeah, like I said
Their funky highlighting, not mine…
The Chan Man is back
After a brief absence for the holidays. Wonder how many people he gets to pay him for the pleasure of listening to him tell you what Ron tells you to do?
Clearing Our Zone — Facts and Figures
Should be a tragi-comic good time. AND exclusive data about the Universe Corps (it doesn’t exist?).
Come on, you are too cheap to even provide coffee and donuts? The CO FOLO Canada is only worthy of a potluck? She is one of the most important people in scientology in Canada, leading it to greatness.
Oh Wow
This is now bigly time. SuMP is coming! To show at the Birthday Event. And pretend this actually shows how many people gather at Cambridge “ideal org” every week.
Fifth Time is the trick
Read the quote at the top and then try to get your head around how you could do this 5 times? And how this even works if you are Clear — where are these pictures if not in your reactive mind?
Recycling Successes
This skateboarder “success” was the source of considerable fun more than a YEAR AGO. They really don’t have any NEW “successes” to offer up?
And this is what they think is really a great thing?
Orlando is about to be rocked
Not likely. Do they REALLY think that people are soon going to know Orlando not for Disney but for scientology? Hahahaha.
This photo of 26 people “celebrating” is composed of more people from the SO, Flag and Atlanta than from Orlando! And for this number of people they have a 52,000 sf building. That is 4,000sf PER PERSON!
I’m confused
This is from the IAS. They are fundraising for the AO? At the L. Ron Hubbard house? Huh? What about Jobur org? I thought the IAS does 4th Dynamic campaigns?
Rapper and Humanitarian
Wonder if he got his humanitarianship during the 25% discount days?
Tampa Fail
Remember all the noise about Tampa going “Double St Hill Size”? Guess that didn’t work out and they are back to “ideal SH Size” (whatever that means).
This is TWO orgs (Day and Fdn) staff — clearly they are NOT “regular SH Size”. There should be more than 200 staff here. I didn’t count them, but it doesn’t look like 200 to me.
Try reading this
Talk about enthusiasm! Giving the sherminator a run for his money…
It’s just a little odd she didn’t accomplish ANYTHING in Columbus, but now is telling everyone “you can do it” while she sits in CLO EUS eating rice and beans.
The obtainment of our Ideal Org building
This write up makes absolutely no sense. Can someone tell me WHAT is being “postponed”? Is it the obtainment? Or is it the Victory Party? And if so, what IS the awesome free dinner event this Saturday?
10 students to Miami
They brought in the Oliver Twist brigade. Kindly they gave them ice cream instead of porridge after toiling in the files for 17 hours…
Ideal org clearing update
Turns out NY Ideal Org has a Facebook page where they track their new Clears. And boy are they ever “making planetary clearing” a reality….
Not a SINGLE CLEAR since May 2016… (The one before that was March 16).
Re: San Diego
Hmmm…its empty Ideal Org is “yours” but the unused funds stored on account for courses isn’t “yours” as it cannot be refunded (even after requesting it back in writing for dissatisfactory service/results). HMMMMM.
Scientologist reader: Blow or go “under the radar” while you can.
Sorry–had to laugh on the Super Power success about not getting run over by a truck. I mean, what’s he doing after Super Power? Skateboarding for fcuk’s sake.
It looks to me like the Orpheum is an incredible venue. I think Robert Plant played there. Along with some other Rock Legends. As far as DM is concerned
He isn’t worthy to be on the same stage!!
………Mike……..just out of curiosity…….just how glad are you that you’re no longer staff?
🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
(from one ex-staff to another)
I’ve been to the Orpheum before and after the renovation. Even before, it was gloriously beautiful. Now I have to think of That Asshole Miscavige defiling it with his gilded rearing horses and priapic phalluses. Jesus. Looking from the beauty in the hall to the abomination on stage would cause such a massive shock to the aesthetic receptors of the brain that the whole audience may just keel over from a collective aneurism. Maybe *that* is Little Jim Jones’ endgame.
So there’s a 50-year SO vet. And he’s only on effing OT VII? After 50 years??
Ooooh, so that’s Nick Terrenzi. I still get his emails on an old email account. He’s trying to position the Hubbard “College” of “Administration” as a real college. He sends emails poo-pooing real college degrees and stating that one of his is more useful in real life. Riiiight. I can imagine some poor schmuck (usually a Delphi graduate with a $200,000 high school diploma) signing up, studying the Fatman’s outdated, bloated bullshit for 2 years and another $60,000 plus living expenses, and going to a job interview anywhere other than at Sterling Management. They’ll laugh the schmuck right out of the room. Assuming he got as far as an interview – more likely, they’d post his C.V. on the water cooler so everyone could have a laugh. Hubbard fucking College of Administration, what a goddamned joke.
ORLANDO! Everyone in that photo save for a few of the women in the front row is over 50. That’s good for them for living (I should be so lucky to make it past 50), but it bodes badly for the cult.
Oh, Chilly… You went from doing some pretty dope shit in the ‘80s to rapping about the stupid IAS. I guess that’s the cult’s M.O. – grab someone on the way up and cash in, or past their peak and make ‘em feel like a star again (you can use that phrase after you get out – just hit me with a ticket to your show). Shave your chin and cop that fade back, brother.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beMrlFPZSNA
Tampa, WTF is this Old Saint Hill nonsense? I thought Scientology was expanding 147X? Yet that Big Target you have so much trouble making is to match an org from 50 fucking years ago? Wake the fuck up!
Oh, Bonnie. You joined the SO just last December? Are you in for a shock. I’ll bet you didn’t even write that little missive the the East US Eagles. How do you like sleeping in a room with 6 other people? How are the rice and beans tasting? I know of a kid who joined not long ago and was out 6 months later – the last three months of that being the asinine routing form. Just leave, Bonnie.
Scientology: World Domination Is Just Around The Corner. Just like “that will get handled on your next action.” Same Old Shit for the last 60 years.
Drew Johnston is still at it even at his age. But now they never post that he is “Class VIII” and only bill him as “OT VIII.” His certs were removed along with everyone else’s on one of the many GAT’s. And as for James Byrne, the top auditor at AOLA, back in the day he was the top and best auditor at AOLA and people would wait for weeks to get on his lineup. He was super busy and had people paying Xtra money to have him as their auditor. Now you can tell that AOLA doesn’t have enough pc’s cuz they put their top auditor on tour talking to not orgs, but mere Missions. Wow. James has had a severe come down.
Funny Funnies, Mike, with your pithy evals.
Notice how the church publishes a roaring success story about somebody’s FIFTH purification RD. That is an implant into unsuspecting minds that the Purif is one of those things that ought to be done periodically. To keep you in proper theta-shape or whatever.
It’s very normal to do the purif more than once or even more than twice. Heck, some people do it five time$! The rundown is one of the last services the church gets some sales with and it’s mining that gold.
“It is a basic natural economic law that personal production of VFPs and one’s standard of living are intimately related.” — LRH, HCO PL 28 Feb 80, “Production and One’s Standard of Living”
I read this in the ad for the Drew Johnston prosperity workshop at AOLA and all I could think was: “Unless you’re in an Org staff position or in the Sea Org!”
Or perhaps they are then inversely related, so that the more VFPs one personally produces, the more one’s standard of living declines?
From what I’ve learned, I can’t think of anyone in America that works harder and longer, for less of a standard of living, than these people.
Mike, do you (or anyone else) have any figures on how many folks actually attend these events in various cities? They clearly have lots of events, I’m guessing all excuses to reg folks, so I’m curious as to who’s actually showing up — a couple dozen at most? I wonder how those involved, especially the speakers who go from place to place, explain the cult’s incredible expansion to themselves if they’re showing up at event after event with hardly anyone there.
“Learn the secrets of why and how a person prospers in life” (there is no secret only a plain fact that Scientology doesn’t want you to know…STAY AWAY FROM THE REG)
“Find out how to turn effort into prosperity!” (they mean turning YOUR effort into THEIR prosperity) … “Its a basic natural law that personal production of VFP’s and ones standard of living are intimately connected” -LRH HCO PL Feb 80
….yeah well every staff member I knew was poor or penniless and most Scientologists I knew were broke between intensives or working towards their 5th CCRD. (Hi Shellah are you out yet? Call me.)
I was once a totally penniless staff member living in a hovel working tirelessly to help my org recover from Int Management putting it into a building far too large and expensive for it.
I tried initially to get them to see the sense of making staff a long term viable career that allowed for “optimal survival across all dynamics” but it turned out that staff is actually a scam, they have no plans to ever make sure the staff are paid – the entire organization is built on exploiting the staff so the great leader can have all the money and the “proportionate pay plan” is just a way to avoid taking responsibility for the well being of the staff.
Instead of even trying to making staff a viable career and allow them to have families and such, the CofS “solution” is to threaten reluctant staff volunteers into continuing to work for them for free by threatening their families, pressuring them to kill their babies so they can continue working for free
It doesn’t matter to the great leader, he gets his share of income no matter what happens to his low IQ, out ethics, druggie, DB staff. They don’t even deserve to have families, the total losers. They just don’t have the brains to duplicate straight LRH, if they did the orgs would be all big and booming.
The entire time I was on staff, when I said things like “Don’t you think we should take care of the staff in return for all of their hard work and sacrifice?” I was told that I was selfish and “1D oriented” and “Only One” and that my work was so useless that I did not deserve the basics of life in return for my labor. Turned out of course that when it was time for me to leave to take care of my family that my work was so darn valuable after all that they had no qualms about threatening my family to force me to continue to work for them for free.
I would just like to acknowlege that they were right. My work for them WAS useless, for I was supporting exploitation, abuse, baby killing, and human trafficking.
BTW, are you referring to Shellah Garrett?
Doug, in 1983 that PL was corrected. There was a typo. Here is the corrected line: “Its a basic natural law that the personnel production of VFP’s and LRH’s standard of living are intimately connected” -LRH HCO PL Feb 83R
The Orpheum Theater is very cool.I got a “behind the scenes” open-house tour of the entire premises when it was first restored a few years ago. (It still has the original theater organ which impressed me no end.) The problem is that it’s on the opposite end of town on the outskirts of south-side downtown. Sort of a rough neighborhood. I don’t think they manage to get many A-list bookings. It’s not the best place to be wandering around at night. Though I suppose getting mugged by some street thug might not be that much worse that being squeezed through the wringer by some fanatical reg with a steep target to meet.
The night time posters of their buildings make me wonder if they are channeling Thomas Kinkade?
Two of the Funnies jump out at me:
First, the picture of Nikki Rentsch, the commanding officer of FOLO Canada. Posing in a uniform of a senior “officer” in Hubbard’s pretend navy means you should at least look good. She should be in a closed collar with whatever tie is prescribed by the dress code. You never see a general in the real military appear in public with an open collar unless they are in battle fatigues visiting the troops in some forward operating base.
Equally importantly, the curled collar tips are extremely sloppy, something you would never want to see from a senior officer. She didn’t put collar stays in her shirt if it’s the kind that come with removable plastic collar stays; maybe she lost the originals and can’t afford new ones on $20 per week. Or if hers is the cheap kind of uniform shirt with flexible collar stays permanently sewn into the fabric, then her shirt is so old that they have disintegrated leading to the curled collars that you’re seeing. Again, in the real navy, this would be cause for a major lecture from one’s superior officers. Proving once again that Scientology has absolutely no class whatsoever.
Second, the letter from Bonnie Williams to the “East US Eagles” reviewing how wonderfully each of the orgs are doing, has a very interesting sentence, probably written in a hurry, but showing off some truth accidentally. She says, “The Ideal Org isn’t put there by a bunch of well off people with funds to burn, sometimes these people feel out of reach to the ‘average person,’ …” Oh really? Does this perhaps mean that the donation stream from Bob Duggan and the rest of the whales is drying up a little bit so that she’s under heat from management to infill with smaller donations from all those dentists and chiropractors?
She then goes on to say that on the other hand, “The Ideal Org isn’t put there by a bunch of people going into extreme debt which can never be recovered from and will forever burden one.” Well, that’s enough of a blatant lie that it points the way to the truth, a truth that’s the exact opposite of what she’s saying. This is the hallmark of a pathological but not very talented liar: they say the exact opposite of what they know to be true. *Good* liars change it up a bit and aren’t so obvious about what’s really going on.
Nikki Rentsch looks like she needs a laxative.
I love Thursday Funnies. I have never laughed so much, and at the same time I want to puke.
Thanks Mike
I laughed and puked at the same time once. The laughing stopped, but, the puking didn’t.
Loved this quote from Elron’s LRH ED 339R INT concerning the need for everyone to work together as a group and not just go off on their own: “And you find me still around, don’t you?”
Well no, Elron, we DO NOT find you around as promised, despite 31 years having elapsed since you dropped the body. You’re AWOL from the $ea Org and your billion year contract is nowhere near being up!
Wait….wasn’t he also in hiding for the last few years of his life too? You know…..off on his own? Spending that time just writing policies that were becoming ever more bizarre, and, of course, continuing to collect his cut of the proceeds? So no Ron, for many years, most but a select few couldn’t find you around anywhere (and I guarantee you, many agencies around the world were certainly looking for you off and on throughout your life).
Why is a guy who has been in the Sea Org for 50 years just now on OT7? If that’s not the worst recruitment advertising for the Sea Org, I don’t know what is. They promise you that you’ll go up the Bridge, but for Xenu’s sake how long is that supposed to take? Yeah, I know that actually going up the Bridge, and particularly enduring the constant harassment that is OT7 is not actually desirable, but the PR line is the opposite of that reality. Fifty years to reach OT7 is BAD PR.
He is one of the lucky ones. There are people who have been in the SO for decades and have not even had their Grades.
Obviously he didn’t deserve them!
Didn’t someone who’s been in 40 years (was it somewhere in the UK) just reach clear?
No. It takes about 80 years to reach Clear in the U.K. Most don’t make it.
LOL! :-p 🙂
Yes, it’s horrible PR. So is this….When I arrived in the sea org at the int base I was OT4 (OT Drug RD) and Class 5 C/S. When I escaped 22 years later I was the exact same. Not ONE Grade Chart action the entire time even though I worked in a unit that was pretty indispensable to all those uber-ridiculous events. Beware the lies of the recruiters!
I watched Steve Mango’s video on his staff recruitment into the Pasadena org, which is a harrowing tale that makes the slimiest used car salesman look like Dr. Schweitzer. He notes that a Sea Org recruitment cycle is 100x more intense. I suppose once you’ve shown your willingness to tolerate such an abusive recruitment, you have demonstrated the right stuff to tolerate 22 years of broken promises.
I’m a whole man again – Michael Chan is BACK!!! Yippee… And @ $40 a couple, think I’ll sign up twice as myself and grab a real bargain.
He’s helped over 70 Orgs! Can you dig that! He’s my hero… Best Hubbard impersonator bar none!
I’m so excited, I wet myself!
OK, calm down. What will really be exiciting is if Jeff Mintz ever puts out another “Good News from Flag” — I loved those and used to graph those flat-lined statistics. Sadly, they don’t appear to have any “good news” any longer…
Yeah, what happened to: Good News From Flag? Did they run out of Good News? Will they be putting up: Somewhat Good News? Or, Barely Good News?
Nope, it’s just No Good News.
So, let me get this straight. Same old news is the new news which is not good news… phew, I’m all news out!
No Good News. I’m so happy my heart is skipping beats! Man, I do love those three words! None, nada, zip Good News.
Watch for the new and more truthful version ….’Fucked News From Flog’ by Jeff and Dave.
Fucked News is good too!
Mike: “And how this even works if you are Clear — where are these pictures if not in your reactive mind?”
I think this definition of “facsimile” answers the question:
“FACSIMILE…3. an energy picture made by a thetan or the body’s machinery of the physical universe
environment. It is like a photograph. It is made of mental energy. It means copy of the physical universe. (PAB 99)” (tech dictionary)
Where do these pieces of energy reside? And aren’t these pictures “of these toxic substances and states” ones you are supposed to be getting rid of so they can no longer be restimulated?
Are you saying there is somewhere else other than the reactive mind that is a repository of pictures that can be restimulated and cause harmful effects on you?
This is a new development in dianetics/scientology theory I was not aware of?
I think the earliest reference is History of Man, which talked about the GE (also referred to as the “somatic mind”) as one area of address. A 1980 reference was HCOB “The Nature of a Being,” which explains how a human being is not a single unit, which is why s/he isn’t that simple to audit.
As for the purif, you only get rid of the residues of toxic substances so that they no longer are there to be restimulated. A drug rundown is what gets rid of the pictures.
Well, afraid this doesnt answer the question and I am becoming further confused.
Are you saying there is somewhere else that pictures that can be restimulated are stored other than the reactive mind? Just yes or no.
As for the purif, you only get rid of the residues of toxic substances so that they no longer are there to be restimulated. A drug rundown is what gets rid of the pictures. Wow, that really missed the point I was making. If you are CLEAR how can any “residues of toxic substances” restimulate pictures? You have gotten rid of the pictures in your reactive mind. Even if they are gotten rid of on a drug rundown, where are they gotten rid of FROM? If not your reactive mind, where do you erase them from?
I hope you understand the question I am posing. Until I read this thing I had never thought about this before.
Yes, to your first question.
“If you are CLEAR how can any “residues of toxic substances” restimulate pictures? You have gotten rid of the pictures in your reactive mind. Even if they are gotten rid of on a drug rundown, where are they gotten rid of FROM? If not your reactive mind, where do you erase them from?”
A Clear no longer has his OWN reactive mind. As regards restim of drugs, a Clear is audited on the OT drug rundown, OT IV.
Aha, so the answer is that it is the reactive mind of BT’s that are being restimulated. But that raises a massive question.
If you can be the effect of the reactive mind of every BT, and you have thousands, if not tens of thousands, how is anyone operating as anything OTHER THAN a stimulus response mechanism, constantly restimulated and plagued with psychosomatic ills? After all, according to the theory, a single reactive mind is debilitating and causes havoc for every person on earth. Now multiply that by 1000, 10,000 or 100,000 and the scenario is a nightmare. Every personon earth would be CONSTANTLY restimulated and chronically ill???
How does this theory play out?
The way I understand it is that the vast majority of BTs are basically dormant. But there are some who aren’t and affect the person or his body with all variety of conditions and unwanted thoughts and feelings.
A human being is a composite of viewpoints but only one viewpoint (thetan) can asis its own mass. When you’re auditing a single body thetan, you’re dealing with a relatively low-energy being whom you can direct into as-ising his/her/its mass.
Thanks for trying to explain. It doesn’t all make sense, but it seems like you are valiantly attempting to explain even things you are not familiar with (the theory of OT III and NOTs). I do mean it when I say I appreciate you making the effort. Thanks.
I haven’t done NOTs but I’ve read the materials online, and I did get some NOTs auditing from David St. Lawrence. But you’re right, I’m not really trained on it. Thanks for the ack for my attempts. 🙂
Mike,
I’d say it comes under the heading of a belief system. Let’s not confuse an otherwise perfectly believable system with pesky facts and even more pesky questions.
As any good $cientologist will tell you, clear your words, find your MUs and restudy the materials. All (and I do mean- ALL) of the answers to life’s questions are in your materials.
🙂
Ah yes… but there’s an answer to that too. Theta, thetan, static, mind – analytical or reactive, whatever you want to call any of it, has no location in time or space except by consideration. If it considers it somewhere, well… there it is. Apparently the tech to handle the long term repeating chains of the same, similar or unknown new thing that doesn’t respond to as-ising itself because of the piece of tech you audited it on didn’t work is to shout at it and jump up and down a bit. It doesn’t matter that it now exists in the location or form of a messenger or a child in a chain locker or a room full of Class 8s. Geezers, mere residues of toxins – child’s play. Or, simply tell it, “it ain’t so,” maybe it’s something else to make a research breakthrough on. Or maybe shout a bit louder and bang a table top or two! Don’t forget the “theta hand trick,” if all else fails.
Where & when to get off the hamster wheel of Scientology is also a consideration.
Hubbard did say in 1952 there’s a higher Q and he’s fishing for it, he continued to fish for it till the day he died. Maybe he’s on target 2 with fishing pole in hand?
Once again, taking Scientology seriously has consequences. Overrun tech is the closest thing to self correctable sanity in applied Scientology.
“Theta, thetan, static, mind – analytical or reactive, whatever you want to call any of it, has no location in time or space except by consideration. ”
Not so of the mind, Yawn.
“8 . the mind is composed of energy which exists in space and which condenses down into masses. (SH Spec 133, 6204C17).”
There’s truth in the rest of your post, though. I just differ from you in that I don’t agree with the idea that we should basically “cut off our nose to spite our faces.” Regardless of the fact that some of our faces may have been injured, cutting off the nose isn’t the rational answer, IMO. In some cases, the “face injuries” have even been healed by the tech. But I certainly respect the decision of those who choose not to have anything to do with it. And I think they should do the same for those who wish to keep it available for themselves and others, rather than chopping it up. (Pardon the trite metaphor.)
If I didn’t know better Miraldi I’d think you believed in this drivel.
Drivel? What drivel? 🙂
It sort of self defeats what you are saying if you disagree. Doesn’t consideration take precedence over mere energy etc. Date/Locate works to rid the mind of those masses (not in all cases but some if not most of them). In other words, the static, thetan or whatever you want to call it must be monitoring in some way those masses placed in time & space ie connected to them. Otherwise auditing and the emeter are wouldn’t have gotten off the ground floor. The fact that some consideration must have created the unknownness connected within a mind, hence the masses are just indicative of prior consideration, ie a static! If not, you’d never have anything to cognite to.
Trading tech for tech and reference for reference is one of the more ridiculous aspects of Scientology as there’s no referee. If it does what it says it does we wouldn’t need this discussion. It’s an unmonitored game Scientology but has unlimited rules and ways to be wrong with it. I agree with Hubbard in one respect, if it’s true for you it’s true. But in essence that’s silly too as it disregards education completely unless you learn and do it his way, and when you do, you find out it doesn’t work as stated. The contradictions within Scientology are numerous but it does parallel the workings of the human condition. For the life-form called humanity sure is active in devising ways to wipe itself out and even calls it’s defense systems and methods of devising lethal methods for use against other humans survival.
Yawn: “The fact that some consideration must have created the unknownness connected within a mind, hence the masses are just indicative of prior consideration, ie a static! If not, you’d never have anything to cognite to.”
Well put, except for the “ie a static” part. Masses (energy particles) are the result of considerations or postulates, which are static, but energy itself is not a static – just by definition, since a static is defined as having no matter, energy, space, etc .Energy is defined as “postulated particles in space.”
“I agree with Hubbard in one respect, if it’s true for you it’s true. But in essence that’s silly too as it disregards education completely unless you learn and do it his way, and when you do, you find out it doesn’t work as stated.
I differentiate between the sane Hubbard on the one hand – who had some incredible insights (including a healthy regard for education) and applications (the tech) – and on the other hand, the flawed and aberrated Hubbard.
“The contradictions within Scientology are numerous but it does parallel the workings of the human condition. For the life-form called humanity sure is active in devising ways to wipe itself out and even calls it’s defense systems and methods of devising lethal methods for use against other humans survival.”
Again, I think the contradictions can be sorted out if the above differentiation is made. And whatever needs to be can be thrown out or improved.
Good observation about “the life-form called humanity.” We’re all in this together.
I seriously get so confused with the progression from Dianetics in the 50s as the ultimate solution, then Power, R6EW, Clear, Dianetic Clear, then the Sci-Fi OT III story of a DC8 flying into volcanoes and auditing little thetans off of you and then reading a story where LRH calls Jesus a pedophile and LRH coming back as a politician. I cannot fathom someone actually believing this nonsense.
If thetans have no mass – why would someone need to put them in a DC8? They could have had billions of them on a pinhead or riding on an amoeba.
I guess the real end phenomena is to be able to circle a planet when you drop your body in a motorhome.
There is one thing to consider I suppose, although not stated directly with the tech. Be self determined! At some point in it all one must decide for themselves what is chaff and what is wheat. Probably that’s what Hubbard meant when he said, “make it your own.” Yet, the tech can’t operate without a group to service it’s delivery – and that my friend is where the problem truly lies, in application. If the application was ever monitored and corrected by results rather than money, it may indeed be a different thing entirely.
Holy cow! Shemanese!
This is knowledge I partially understand by direct perception and partially by book learning from my teacher. So I do not claim wisdom in this:
Knowledge of where impressions are stored has been known by yogis for centuries; millennia
Ron was a dilettante ( noun-a person who cultivates an area of interest without real commitment or knowledge) regarding the subject of our cognitive faculties and their innate powers of stored impressions.
The yogis say that the soul is encased in three bodies. This is even knowledge in Buddhism as well. In fact all esoteric schools acknowledge this.
1) the physical body
2) the astral body (theta or energy body. This is what people inhabit when leaving the physical body and what people see when they see disembodied beings)
3) the causal body (mental or ideational body. I do not have great knowledge of this)
Impressions are stored in the physical brain in electrical neuron pathways
Impressions are also stored in the astral brain.
But ultimately all ideas are sourced in the casual body. Memory is a capacity of the soul. Knowledge is eternal. What we know never disappears. Because knowledge is eternal.
What is not eternal is suffering, pain and ignorance. These are neutralized by spiritual practice because suffering is an alteration of pure consciousnes, which is our true nature.
The soul has superimposed over it three bodies. Ron was only trying to be free from the physical body. He had little or no understanding of the other two.
Like I said, all esoteric schools of wisdom talk about this. So I am not bowing sunshine.
If you want more information on this google it. Or read Autobiography of a Yogi for a more in depth explanation.
It explains all of these things better than I can.
I don’t know if anybody gives a flip or not but this is my passion so I follow my bliss by commenting.
Indeed, the knowledge of what constitutes the person, physically and mentally, has been known for thousands of years and is sourced in vedic literature. The 9th century scholar, Adi Shankara, expounded in detail the 1. physical, 2. subtle (astral) and 3. causal bodies in his treatise, “Vivekachudamani”. Yoga and Buddhism are sourced in the vedas as well. Nobody has ever disproved this information mainly because it is based on our direct experience and put together through logical inference.
Not so with Hubbard’s cosmology which he apparently put together from scraps of ideas he picked up here and there. It doesn’t form a cohesive whole but is full of holes, information gaps. That is why you can’t deconstruct it without disproving it. (A high crime!)
The “CAUSAL” body is where impressions of past experience are stored as seeds of knowledge. As there are no organs of perception in that body, it is unobservable and is known strictly through inference. It is our ‘unconscious mind’.
Those seeds are experienced as thoughts and feelings when they descend into the SUBTLE (astral) body which is the seat of the organs of perception and is therefore, observable and provides the ‘arena’ of experience. It is our ‘conscious mind’.
Interestingly, the field of psychology, because it was developed from careful analysis, more closely aligns with vedic understanding than do Hubbard’s notions. For instance, what psychology calls the “ego”, the vedas call the, “ahamkara” (the “I” thought). Scientology denies it exists.
Also interesting is the Buddhist denial of the “soul” which seemingly contradicts vedic knowledge but actually doesn’t when the whole thing is laid out and understood. Soul = causal body + subtle body + consciousness.
You are the consciousness.
Thank you Roger 🙂
Regarding the Buddhist no soul thing:
Hinduism was in decline when Buddha incarnated. The Hindu religion gave way to external ceremonies, animal sacrifices and a general lack of looking within. The masters call this the low point.
That’s when Buddha incarnated to basically tell everyone shut up, live a decent life and meditate.
Buddhism started on its downward influence when Adi Shankara incarnated. In the 700s. Basically the degradation of Buddhism was accompanied by a misunderstanding of nirvana.
The intellectuals were interpreting nirvana (a blowing out) in nihilistic terms. They defined it as no existence.
But nirvana means the blowing out of ego, not the blowing out of the self existence.
Roger: “The ‘CAUSAL’ body is where impressions of past experience are stored as seeds of knowledge. As there are no organs of perception in that body, it is unobservable and is known strictly through inference. It is our ‘unconscious mind’.”
That description aligns with Hubbard’s description of the mind, which is even similarly worded in its most basic definition: “a literal record of experience.”
Roger:”Those seeds are experienced as thoughts and feelings when they descend into the SUBTLE (astral) body which is the seat of the organs of perception and is therefore, observable and provides the ‘arena’ of experience. It is our ‘conscious mind’.”
The subtle/astral body would be the equivalent of the analytical mind, with regard to thoughts and feelings that are stored in the mind (causal body) being (re-)experienced – by becoming re-stimulated (or simply being remembered intentionally, which I’ll say more about next). In your cosmology, however, there seems to be no explanation for why and how past thoughts and feelings come to mind. Apparently, it just “happens.”
As for the experience of past thoughts and feelings (in your words, “impressions of past experience”) being remembered intentionally, this is the result of INTENTION to remember – which is where the similarity between the two theories seems to end. The ability of a thetan (an individual being) to INTEND is in contrast with the idea that things simply “happen.” Correct me if I have that wrong.
Roger: “Interestingly, the field of psychology, because it was developed from careful analysis, more closely aligns with vedic understanding than do Hubbard’s notions. For instance, what psychology calls the ‘ego’, the vedas call the, ‘ahamkara’ (the ‘I’ thought). Scientology denies it exists.”
I disagree. Scientology calls it “identity,” which includes “valences.” The most basic description of a thetan is simply “awareness of awareness.”
Roger: “Also interesting is the Buddhist denial of the ‘soul’ which seemingly contradicts vedic knowledge but actually doesn’t when the whole thing is laid out and understood. Soul = causal body + subtle body + consciousness. You are the consciousness.”
My point is that the same is true of Scientology, if you lay it out and understand it.
Actually Marildi, the soul is not any of these bodies. The soul is formless. Autobiography has more info for you.
This link is to a pdf. Go to the chapter “The Resurrection of Sri Yukteswar”. It’s quite a chapter and describes all of these things. It is the most amazing chapter of any book I have ever read on these subjects.
Some here will either be blown away or think me a loon.
Enjoy!
http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Autobiography-of-a-Yogi-by-Paramahansa-Yogananda.pdf
Chapter 43
Brian: “Actually Marildi, the soul is not any of these bodies.”
Yes, I see that from Roger’s last post. And I am saying the same as you, that the soul is formless – or, in my words, that it is distinct from the physical universe, the world of form. For once we agree. 😀
Thanks for the link.
Marildi, you are welcome. BTW! If I have ever been too crude or disrespectful with you I apologize.
On the other hand, you are more fun to have a dialogue with than those who agree with me.
I truly honor your passion in your search for truth. We are the same in this regard.
We are probably very good friends but don’t know it ❤
Brian, I’m going to agree with you. Things are more interesting with marildi than without marildi.
And with you too, Roger. 🙂
Thank you, Brian. No worries. ❤
For the poet in you, here’s an excerpt from a “poem” that speaks to our coaction:
“Why does one suffer pain in his own arm when he or she has struck another’s limb?
“Because the cruel impulse has been a break of bond with others where pledge once lived.
“The only overt act that can bring pain to self is that cruel act which then transgresses things to which we had agreed.
“Share action with a group or person in your life, agree to mutually survive by some specific code and then be cruel to them and so transgress and you’ll have pain.
“All mankind lives and each man strives by codes of conduct mutually agreed. Perhaps these codes are good, perhaps they’re bad, it’s only evident they’re codes. Mores bind the race.
“Coaction then occurs. Thought and motion in accord. A oneness then of purpose and survival so results.”
(“Clean Hands Make a Happy Life”)
Impressions of past experience ‘fructify’ from seed form in the causal body to experienced thought forms in the subtle body via the principle of stimulus-response of course. How else?
It is mechanical. “Mechanical” means it is outside the control of a thetan or individual mind. Mechanical operations are controlled by God or “the one causative agent”. The Cosmic Mind, if you will.
The subtle body contains the intellect, (buddhi) the emotional center, (manos) the “I” thought, (ahamkara) the organs of perception that make sense of the information delivered by the INSTRUMENTS of perception, and it contains the regulatory machinery for the physical body (pranamaya kosha). So, the “analytical mind” of scientology is only a piece of the ‘subtle body’.
“Identity” is NOT the equivalent of ‘ahamkara’. ‘Ahamkara” explains what is at the core of identity: the thought, “I”. By itself it has no identity. ‘Valences’ are just thoughts like any other thoughts. Ahamkara takes ownership of the thought and identifies with it. Thus you have a momentary identity. All identities are only momentary because in truth you have NO PERSONAL identity outside of thoughts.
There are similarities between scientology and vedic knowledge, no doubt about that. Apparently Hubbard dabbled a bit but he misunderstood some of it and ignored some of it also. You can’t do that with complete knowledge just as you can’t take a few colors out of the spectrum and still get white light.
I really don’t want to go back and forth on this if you don’t mind. (insert smiley face with a knowing wink)
Rog, as regards your first paragraph, we seem to be in agreement although the terminology is different. In your second paragraph, you say:
“The subtle body contains the intellect, (buddhi) the emotional center, (manos) the ‘I’ thought, (ahamkara) the organs of perception that make sense of the information delivered by the INSTRUMENTS of perception, and it contains the regulatory machinery for the physical body (pranamaya kosha).”
From the above, it’s clear that besides containing the analytical mind, which involves the intellect and ideas about self (ego), the Vedic subtle body also includes the somatic mind – which in Scientology is the mind that regulates the body by putting into effect “orders” from either the analytical mind or the reactive mind or both. This is just one example of where the two philosophical models do not entirely compare, but realize that both contain constructs that lay out different ways of organizing the various aspects of existence. There is nothing in the Vedic model that the Scientology model doesn’t include but in a different way.
However, there obviously is something in the Scientology model that the Vedic model doesn’t recognize – which is the existence of a spiritual being/thetan that is completely separate from the physical universe and has free will and the ability to intend/postulate. And Scientology isn’t the only philosophy, by far, that includes this belief, so you can’t assume it’s just a misguided idea of Hubbard’s.
The really interesting thing is that philosophers of each of these points of view claim to have had direct experience with the “truth” of either the existence of soul or of no-soul. For that reason, we shouldn’t be so arrogantly certain as to dismiss the view that is different from our own, or to say it doesn’t contain “complete knowledge.” Other than having had one’s own direct eaxperience, it’s a matter of sheer belief – based on other’s experience. And being so adamant about it makes one come off like a “true believer.” 😉
marildi, you point out similarities between Hubbard and vedanta and similarities have been acknowledged. Hubbard dabbled in vedanta and he also made some sufficiently intelligent observations about obvious things. But what he offered not only has missing parts, it leads to wrong conclusions.
“However, there obviously is something in the Scientology model that the Vedic model doesn’t recognize – which is the existence of a spiritual being/thetan that is completely separate from the physical universe and has free will and the ability to intend/postulate.”
You are correct that vedanta doesn’t recognize such a spiritual being as you describe. Hubbard’s ‘thetan’. Vedanta DOES explain in elegant detail how that notion is false. I’m taking a pass on discussing it further.
Vedanta is known for setting people free, scientology doesn’t enjoy such a reputation. That’s the bottom line. (I’m betting you were one imperious MAA!)
“You are correct that vedanta doesn’t recognize such a spiritual being as you describe. Hubbard’s ‘thetan’. Vedanta DOES explain in elegant detail how that notion is false. I’m taking a pass on discussing it further.”
That’s a cop-out, Rog. I can only conclude that you can’t back up your assertions.
cop-out
1. A failure to fulfill a commitment or responsibility or to face a difficulty squarely.
2. A person who fails to fulfill a commitment or responsibility.
3. An excuse for inaction or evasion.
“(I’m betting you were one imperious MAA!)”
Thinking at your own level, are you? 🙂
(imperious: assuming power or authority without justification; arrogant and domineering.)
An SO missionaire one time thought I was too soft. I wasn’t acquiesing to the new order of things.
No need to explain to me what a ‘cop-out’ is marildi. I am qualified to teach vedanta and what you’re asking of me is to teach principles that have considerable complexity. In truth, the point you’ve asked me to prove, about how Hubbard’s thetan doesn’t exist outside of the imagination…I have already done in the past repeatedly. I’m not going to turn this blog into a vedanta school. (It might be too late to say that!) I’ve referred you to Shining World website to acquaint yourself with the subject but you’re not interested and there’s no reason why you should be.
BTW, marildi, after all we’ve been through together do you really think I would make an assertion I can’t back up and would therefore ‘cop-out’? Do you REALLY think that? I’ll tell you who does that: Mr. Theosamides. Yeah, he took a powder on me here and last year at Tony’s when I started getting analytical. If I did that I wouldn’t be able to live in my own skin.
Roger: “In truth, the point you’ve asked me to prove, about how Hubbard’s thetan doesn’t exist outside of the imagination…I have already done in the past repeatedly.”
You may have attempted to present proof of that, but I didn’t see it as proof. What I recall is that it came down to assertion, based on someone’s (or many others’) assertion of personal experience, or else it was mere belief in their assertions – which is no different from Hubbard’s (and others’) assertions of direct experience or mere belief in those assertions.
Personally, I don’t “believe” in either. If anything, what seems right to me at this point in my journey is that different people could very well be having the exact same spiritual experience but some describe it as an experience of “I am” while others describe it as “oneness with all.” With either type of experience, there is apparently no worldly identification whatsoever, which tells me it’s virtually impossible to say anything about it at all! It should actually be expected that different descriptions could conflict.
“BTW, marildi, after all we’ve been through together do you really think I would make an assertion I can’t back up and would therefore ‘cop-out’? Do you REALLY think that?”
I get that you are basically a good guy and no dummy, but I’m still getting to know you. And I honestly don’t know yet if you would be capable of being fully honest about something in your personal belief system that may put you on the spot. Serously, I think almost anything can be put into simple, relatively few words, if you really know what you’re tallking about. I’ve had to do that many times, to the best of my ability, with regard to aspects of Scientology.
OK, please end this thread too. These back and forths clutter up the relevant comments. This has been going on since THURSDAY!
Okay, Mike.
Since there’s been some discussion on this, I want to chip in that I think it is a bit of a presumption to use “knowledge” in much the same way it is when Hubbard and Scientology presume to use terms like that or “science,” though in the case of practices like yoga and Buddhism they at least have some right gained from a long history of development.
What you refer to are theories, that have been developed and in some ways tested over an extended period of time, and which have even proven useful in addressing some aspects of the human condition. But they might be superseded and even proven inaccurate by new developments, especially those coming from modern science, just as the theories that light was formed of waves or particles were a useful and allowed for advances, until their replacement with the quantum theory that led to developments like lasers. Incidentally, the (competing) classical Indian theories about light are interesting but not particularly accurate, and science and medicine on the Indian subcontinent seemed hampered by a reliance on established theory that left them lagging Europe in actual research and development.
I am a student of yoga and Buddhism and even in some ways active in promoting their practice, so I come to them with much appreciation for what they have to teach and for the increasing scientific validation of some aspects of their practice.
p.s. Brian – do you have a good book on yoga to recommend, other than the autobiography of your guru or work necessarily tied to his SRF group?
Peacemaker, a theory is knowledge. When it is disproved it can be fired from that post but as long as it continues to provide understanding it gets to keep its title. That’s my ruling, anyway.
It bears pointing out, empirical science is relevant only within the subject/object duality of the phenomenal universe. Consciousness cannot be studied empirically for two reasons, it cannot be objectified and it has no attributes that make it possible to be detected.
Consciousness is the self-knowing, self-experiencing reality that is the ground state of existence. “It” is YOU. This is called, “knowledge” because it has been confirmed. If proof is demanded then let us be mindful that in order to have something proved to you, you must be able to understand the proof. Aye, there’s the rub.
When my ex-wife talks about “knowledge” of Krishna, it really does give me a cremaster response, so I too am a little picky about what gets to be called, “knowledge”.
roger, first, I am glad to see at the end that you, too, are “picky” about what gets to be called knowledge.
I did a brief check into the matter, and I can’t find a good argument for whether or not a theory can be really be knowledge. I do see that there are classifications for theoretical knowledge as compared to factual knowledge, though the theoretical is thus explaining the factual. In the context here I think it would be better to specify that it refers to theoretical knowledge, but that’s still a stretch because it is questionable as to whether it is explaining what could really be called factual knowledge about these matters.
Normally I’d be concerned that the discussion might be falling into the trap or trick of Hubbard and Scientology, confusing or conflating terms and claiming certainty or science falsely. But since you understand to be cautious, I don’t think there’s any real risk of harm.
I agree with you that consciousness probably can’t be studied empirically for the most part. But psychology and brain science has arrived at the point of starting to increase our understanding of consciousness, and I think that at some point if not already, it may inform theories about more esoteric matters. We might, for instance, start to understand a three-part model in a different way because of what science reveals, or even come up with a more complex theory.
To me, one of the great faults of Hubbard’s work and of Scientology is that it hasn’t been able to take into account increased scientific understanding about the brain and mind, and the implications of that.
Peacemaker, my humble definition of knowledge: information that yields understanding. I appeal to no illustrious authority to back me up on that. I appeal only to the mercy of your honest opinion.
Psychology and brain science do not reveal knowledge of consciousness. They reveal knowledge of neurology and thoughts. Thoughts are perceived objects, they not the perceiving agent.
The most earth-shaking brain science discovery, in my opinion, was from MRI research that reveals our decisions are made PRIOR to our experience of making the decision. The ramifications of that are paradigm-shattering. For instance, where is free will if our decisions are made mechanically? This confirms what the rishis said thousands of years ago when they composed the vedas.
There is one quote by Hubbard that I like: “It doesn’t matter whether something is true or not so long as it works”. (!) That is of course a thought-stopper but still, it’s hard to argue against.
Roger, I think we have to be careful about defining words in ways other than those generally understood, because then one risks falling into the sort of redefinition of words that George Orwell dealt with in his book 1984, and that Hubbard and Scientology have exploited. Referring to something as a model or theory is a way of saying that it yields understanding, without risking seeming to claim that it is ultimate unalterable truth. Enough said.
I think that your example of ramifications from MRI research does show how modern scientific advances may have some ramifications for models of consciousness, including the old hindu and yogic ones. And I think science is likely to be even more impactful in the future as the tools and techniques improve and yield more detailed insights.
Peacemaker, if you have a specific disagreement with an assertion I’ve made then let us hear it. You may disprove it with reason and if you do I will be obliged to change my mind.
As I’ve stated, consciousness cannot be studied empirically. There is no evidence of consciousness beyond your experience of being conscious. Besides, consciousness doesn’t undergo any changes so it doesn’t respond to any stimuli. Thoughts come and go creating ever-changing states of mind but the witnessing consciousness is unchanging and unmoving. Consciousness perceives thoughts but does not itself have thoughts. The mind has thoughts. Science studies the mind/brain, it doesn’t study consciousness.
I do understand where you’re coming from though and your objections are also understandable.
Hey Peace Maker yes here are a few:
2 translations and commentary by Swami Prabhavananda:
1) How to Know God: The Yoga Aphorisms of Patanjali (best I have found of this epic writing)
2) The Upanishads: Breath of the Eternal (it all started with this. The Upanishads are the most important part of the Vedas having to do with knowing directly the truth)
These two small books are the basics and easy to read
Anything by Swami Vivekananda
The two volume set The Supreme Yoga translation by Swami Venkatesananda (very heady)
The Crest Jewel of Discrimination by Shankara translation by Swami Prabhavananda ( Shankara was a very important figure born 686 AD. He revolutionized Indian thought and thus the world)
Autobiography of a Yogi and Yogananda’s work in general can be gotten from other groups. The free link I posted is from others besides SRF. The book is universally accepted in all yoga circles as an essential work on the goals and practices of yoga. Yogananda’s influence goes beyond his group.
Yogananda’s two volume sets of these works are revolutionary:
1) The Second Coming of Christ-commentary on the New Testament
2) God Talks To Arjuna-Royal Science of God Realization (His translation and inspired intuitions on the Bhagavad Gita-truly a mind blower)
The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna by Mahendranath Gupta (the story of a liberated master and great influence in India and the world by someone who spent years with him. Ramakrishna was the teacher of Vivekananda)
Anything by or about Ramana Maharshi
All of these books are really in accord with each other. They are all pretty much saying the same thing as they are conveying the same truth.
When you take a math class 2 + 2 is a constant. It varies not from math teacher to math teacher. One may use 2 pies plus 2 pies equal 4 pies to illustrate.
Another may use a different approach to convey the same truth.
And so it is with liberated souls. They are all basically saying the same thing with their own flare and individuality.
These books are by liberated souls. Masters of the subject they teach and write about.
I love them all. I make no distinction between my guru’s wisdom and any other of these teachers.
Yogis honor and cherish each other. We are all children of the same Supreme. There is no competition between them. They support each other. Students are not customers in these different lineages. They are family.
Happy Hunting Peace Maker. If you find a path that resonates with you stick with it. It’s important to experiment in the beginning and become familiar with many approaches. But when we find the one that feels like home that is a good thing. It will take you all the way.
I couldn’t help but notice that Wayne Fuller, who has been the ED of the Tampa Org is positioned at the back of the group in their group picture. I don’t know who the guy is in the front kneeling down but I can only assume he’s the new ED?
YEah, wondered that myself. Maybe he was late to the photo shoot because he was stuck in a reg cycle?
“Stuck in a reg cycle…” Oh my, doesn’t that sentence bring back some terrible moments. Gives one the horrors it does!
(Country western music playing). I’m stuck in a reg cycle again.
Which is much much worse that being stuck in Lodi-o. No Missions, no orgs and thus no entheta in Lodi !
I think I’ll move there! Want to join me?
Where’s the bus?
I’m already there! Love it!
Where is Lodi?
Hahaha, No he’s one of the south africans they recruited…he’s a bit of an attention seeker in general….
For anyone interested in gauging Scientology event sizes, I checked on the Orpheum. Its listed seating capacity is 2,000, and from the seating charts it appears that the balcony and mezzanine are almost as large as the main floor, so I would estimate that it seats 1,100 on the main floor and the rest upstairs.
So it’s an impressive looking venue, but particularly if they only filled the lower floor, it’s not that many people – and it could easily be filled mostly with staff and sea org from the LA area. Which brings something to mind, perhaps these big events are not just being filled out with staff and sea org, but may be starting to become rallies for the workers in the bubble inside the bubble.
A quick check back in time shows that they had a similar event last year at Pac Base, but In 2015 they had it at the Pasadena Convention Center, and if they used the Pasadena Civic Auditorium, that is another old theater-type venue with a balcony that seats 3,000 total.
A nice tidbit of data detective work on your part. Especially how they’ve bailed from the Pasadena Civic to the Orpheum which is smaller. The shuttle buses from Pac Base are the key — it’s all about filling seats with the Sea Org drones so that the 35 actual public in the audience don’t become suspicious. Wonder if the Sea Org types actually have civvies so they’re not in uniform?
Good question.
They do have the SO wear civvies so as to blend in with the crowd. The only ones who wear uniforms are the ones who are working the event and line up outside to accost you to give money when you leave.
Really? “Reverting” the dwindling spiral? Oh-kay. Perhaps she means “reversng” but, hey, what would I know? I only have a wog education.
And before that, like more than two years before that, it was to herald the imminent arrival of Senior Management from Int.
Instead, they have L Ron Hubbard’s reactive mind.
Isn’t everyone?
Paramahansa Yogananda, my peceptor, gives an analogy of what successful religions should have as essential to success.
He gives the analogy of the bee hive. A successful bee hive needs the hive itself and honey.
The physical hive means organization. Any organization needs structure to exist.
The honey is the humanity, the sweetness of soul consciousness, love, joy, selfless service, respecting all beings, seeing the good, overcoming negativity with the positive.
And ultimately consciousness of the Creator which is the essence of Love Itself.
Scientology today only promotes the hive. There is no sweetness in Scientology. There is no honey.
It promotes the bee hive with no honey; empty and devoid of Spirit.
The facade and promotion of real estate is in fact pure materialism.
Ron promoted honey and the hive. But whatever little honey was there in the beginning is now gone.
A religion and philosophy based on lies and destroying critics will ultimately self destruct because cosmic truth and order are not present.
So in that sense Scientology really has no long lasting organizational certainty either.
Lack of real spiritual truth, lack of real human kindness and love, lacking true knowledge and perception of the Supreme Being; this social pariah called Scientology is slowly corroding under the weight of it’s own lies and ignorance.
It’s all hive with no honey.
Maybe honey is Marcab PR. Lol!!
When true religionists practice the virtues of Dharma (cosmic order and cosmic duty) you get heroes on this stage terrestrial:
Gandhi
Martin Luther King
Jesus
Buddha
Rumi
My preceptor
Saint Francis
These souls manifest a quality that is universally recognized as true greatness.
The by product of living Universal Spiritual Principles is becoming a universally accepted hero.
David, I hope you give some thoughts to the words I’ve said. I think about you and wish you well.
I hope one day you can find it in yourself to doubt all you have learned from Ron is true.
Some of the things you learned from Ron have a direct causal relation to your situation.
The discontent in your personal life is evidence of a philosophy that has led you a life of anger and misery.
You feel all alone because you have created that condition following Ron’s rules of getting and keeping power.
You think you have power but you cannot go anywhere you want. Your following Ron’s instruction on power has actually built a self created prison around you.
And your easy access to money has betrayed you. As it should. Because no happiness lies in matter.
Are you free David? Are you unconditionally happy?
You assumed power years ago and now you are experiencing the effect of your cause; a guilded cage.
Notice that Bonnie Williams has been on post now a full two months (CLO EUS) since joining the See Orge in December of 2016.
That’s a pretty fast EPF and then on post to get the new Ogres to an Idyllic status. I’ll give her a few more months on rice and beans, a few ass chewings for down stats, no sleep, etc., etc. and she will be gone.
I have a few questions….
. I wonder how many if any of those top management been in the hole? Have seen abuse?
. Do all those top executives know about zenu?
. Some of these events are happening in a day or so and this weekend. I would really like a follow up and also see how many people show up and how much money they were talked out of.
. Last but not least… Are those buildings really that beautiful? And empty?
Thank you to any who help me to understand just a little more!
The answers you seek are repetitive they are. Scientology is better understood if one understands it represents a circle, kind of. It doesn’t go anywhere and essentially poor old Mike Rinder pretty much has repeatedly stated the answers you seek over and over. It is quite the phenomena of frustration trying to comes to terms with a Scientologist’s motives & gullibility. It doesn’t make sense unless you drink cool-aid, and if you do that, questioning it never enters your head – IT’S FORBIDDEN!
I hope that doesn’t confuse you too much, but the answers you seek will never satisfy an intelligent, caring person, it generally disgusts them. It could be suggested it somewhat aligns with understanding why a child kills ants with a magnifying glass in the sun.
” it represents a circle, kind of.”
Yes it does …..kind of ………….like the circle jerk variety!
It kind of reminds me of the statement “once I got to the end….someone moves the end”…..
Yep! The good old circle jerk. Sometimes I exteriorize after a session…
Well, thanks for answering my three repetitive questions.
Would not want to frustrate anyone here!
LOL Oh, if anyone is familiar with frustration it’s an ex-Scientologist! Maybe we should have certs made up, gold star and all.
No offence Marie, but there’s a certain type of callous that forms when one bashes their head against the Scientology wall for any length of time.
Please excuse us marie. The answers are
1: Yes. At one time most executives were in the hole.
2: Yes. Once you reach OT3 the secret of xenu is revealed to you. Most execs in the hole were probably on a much higher level than that.
3: Yes. Although miscavige has bullied and sweet-talked the money for the ideal org to be made and beautifully tricked out, he can’t trick the public into filling them, thanks to blogs like Mike’s, shows like Aftermath, books and documentaries like Going Clear
. Hope that answers your questions. If you’re interested there are several good reads that might give you more insight into our little party. Mike has them listed if you scroll to the bottom. Good luck.
I recognized the name Andrea Scaravilli. About three years ago I received almost the exact same letter from her, except the part about being an IAS field disseminator, trying to get me to join the Sea Org. Other than that it was the exact letter verbatim.
I’m no legal expert, especially as it pertains to religious pronouncements, but I have a couple of thoughts/questions, which I’m sure has been thought about before, but wanted to ask here for anyone with knowledge about this stuff (my apologies for talking about serious stuff in a humorous post):
1. Is there a chance that fraud could be proven in a court of law as it relates to a number of CoS claims, especially in the videos they put out for their events, in addition to these misleading fliers? I have read the details of the Wollersheim case, and the fraud portion of that case was thrown out. Also, from my understanding, CoS is very good at giving “facts” that could be very interpretive, such as “stacking all Dianetics books sold end on end could reach the moon and back 23 times” or some strange claim like that.
But is there possibly a way to definitively prove that they have grossly and intentionally misled their public parishioners who give massive amounts of money (such as Leah) to show their attempts to defraud them of their money/donations by making these misleading claims (there were some insights into this misleading practice in Marc Headley’s Blown for Good book)? And in the states in the US with an Org that were shown these videos/fliers, could there perhaps be at least one of these states that has a statute of limitations for fraud that hasn’t passed yet where some people with this knowledge who have recently blown Int may be able (if even willing) to provide evidence?
2. OT a bit here: In the Wollersheim case (although this was in 1989, before tax exempt status was regained by CoS), one of the main points in that case dealt with coercion due to auditing, disconnection, and fair game, and the emotional distress that resulted from that, in which he won his judgement against the church since these were determined to not be “voluntary religious activities” protected under the 1st Amendment. I know that coercion is extremely difficult to prove, but there have been recent videos of disconnected family members attacking some of the guests on Aftermath that seem to be extremely staged in a very coercive environment.
I’ve tried to research the process that goes into making these attack videos on their own declared family members, but my web searches on these attack videos don’t really lead to these sorts of details. I know this may be something from the past that Mike wouldn’t care to discuss, but since you were head of OSA at one time, it seems as though it’s possible you may have been delegated the responsibility of getting some of these attack videos against disconnected family members made yourself (I could be very wrong here, and am not trying to make accusations). If so, could you provide evidence that you or others under you used coercive tactics (under threats of disconnection and being declared an SP themselves) to force these family members into making these attack videos, which could result in emotional distress (and if so, would you even be willing to discuss this in more detail, either on this blog or in a future Aftermath show)? This would be more of a civil suit as opposed to a criminal suit, but if it at least discourages the church from continuing with their policy of coercively encouraging disconnection (due to bad PR), that might be a good start (mostly for the family members to actually reconnect with loved ones, but also to potentially lead to a faster dissolution of the power of the church). Even though they claim that disconnection is “voluntary”, if there is evidence to the contrary that this policy is, in fact, coercive, that might help disprove this lie.
Just trying to think through all of this complicated stuff.
#1 – Not a chance unless it is a written claim guaranteeing that a specific donation is going towards a specific activity. Claims of crowd size, org performance and the like are not grounds for a suit against a church.
#2 – VERY hard to prove due to the fact that individual adults have the basic human right of freedom of association and that the other party (the scamologist) will insist on that right. Therefore nullifying most claims or tortuous conduct along that line.
Thanks Mike.
#1 – I understand what you’re saying. Probably why the fraud portion was thrown out by the judge in the Wollersheim case.
#2 – I agree coercion is very difficult, if not almost impossible, to prove. But if there can be evidence produced by a former Scientologist where he/she admits to actually coercing members his/herself to do things like make those attack videos, under threat of repercussions if they do not do as they’re told (disconnection, declaration, RPF, etc.), could that not violate the “basic human right of freedom of association”? And could show that these coercive practices were not “voluntary religious activities” protected by the First Amendment as was found in Wollersheim v. Church of Scientology?
Yes, the members of this group could technically do what some have done, like Brandon Reisdorf, and just leave instead of disconnecting from his parents, but those that do so clearly understand that they will very likely face extreme punitive repercussions from the church if they do so (extreme sec checking to route out “properly”, disconnection, and/or being declared)…..which seems extremely coercive. The coercion component (including the coercive nature of threatened disconnection), leading to what was found to be a legitimate claim of emotional distress (at least by a jury) in the Wollersheim case, was successful in acquiring compensatory damages in this case (as well as five times as much in punitive damages against the church).
I know that most every attorney only wants to take on cases where either they have a pretty reasonable chance at a successful outcome for a portion of the judgement or where their client is willing to pay for the massive amount of time and effort that would be required for them to pursue these cases. Coupled with the history of the church launching personal attacks even against attorneys (which seems to be a form of intimidation against witnesses and their attorneys even though this wouldn’t technically be a criminal case, which is an abuse of the legal system, although they would probably claim their standard “right to respond to our critics”), it’s understandable why most attorneys shy away from litigation against this group, especially with the resources that CoS has at their disposal and are most definitely willing to use them to defend itself in order to keep the cash cow operational.
Maybe I’m being as delusional as LRH, but I believe that there just has to be a way to end this nightmare for many people who were adversely affected (to the extreme for some) by the actions of this group.
#2. No, that wouldn’t violate the freedom of association. You have to physically imprison a person to do violate that. Even now people in the church are imprisoned by their mind, not in cells they cannot leave. Hence no charges of false imprisonment being brought to trial with any success. To do otherwise is to ask the gov to determine what a person is REALLY wanting OVER the objections of that person. If the gov starts doing that there will be an armed rebellion against the gov that would make the civil war look tame.
To end it you have to simply get church members to change their mind. Remember MOST of them have done so. Everyone working on it is being successful. There is only a few thousand people in the entire USA that are now part of the church.
I understand that no current Scientologist would testify against them. I was just thinking more of former Scientologists that have recently blown. In California, there is a 1-year statute of limitations on false imprisonment according to http://legalbeagle.com/6455477-statute-limitations-false-imprisonment-california.html
Another relevant section on that site states this: “The elements of false imprisonment are set forth in sections 236 and 237 of the California Penal Code. Essentially, false imprisonment is a violation of a person’s liberty. This is further defined to include substantial and restrained restriction of a person’s liberty through fraud, deceit, COERCION, duress or violence. Threat of injury is sufficient to constitute a violation of liberty when the person being threatened reasonably believes the threat is likely to be carried out.” (Caps are mine)
Regardless of that, false imprisonment carries a relatively light penalty (up to $1,000 and/or 1 year in county jail or possibly state correctional facility), but it appears to be a key aspect of human trafficking (would have to include sale or trade of the person though), which has no statute of limitations. Just the false imprisonment wouldn’t make much of a dent in the organization in the whole scheme of things, except more bad PR.
At the end of the day, I suppose we just have to keep pressure on our elected officials, in addition to keeping the discussion alive on the internet in the hopes that it will eventually reach those on the inside and hope they will one day wake up. I suppose going after them with small lawsuits that don’t completely devastate the entire structure of the church (such as being able to prove human trafficking) could be somewhat counter-productive if it only emboldens the members to rally around their leaders and beliefs.
There are tons of people much smarter than I am who have been looking into this stuff much longer than I have, so I guess I need to just trust that everything that can be done, has been done, and only time and information is what will eventually cause people to wake up and reconnect with their loved ones.
Doesn’t mean I’ll stop trying to think of ways to speed that process along though. Even as a never-in who still has a massive amount of information yet to be learned about Scientology, I feel like I’m just a bit too deep down this proverbial “rabbit hole” to just climb out, throw up my hands, and say “oh well, nothing I can do”.
That’s the problem Mick. They AREN’T being physically imprisoned. Anyone can leave any time they want to. It is that they don’t want to.
I’m afraid that you’ve been misinformed.
I agree they can leave anytime they want, but my only point regarding false imprisonment is, quote:
“This is further defined to include substantial and restrained restriction of a person’s liberty through fraud, deceit, COERCION, duress or violence.”
This seems to cover that false imprisonment isn’t just of the physical nature, but mental as well (through threats of repercussions). This is just one website, and I’m sure there are plenty of viable defenses to counter any accusations of false imprisonment, not to mention the sentence seems fairly light (unless you can show sale or trade of the individuals, which puts it in the category of human trafficking), so it seems pointless to even attempt to go after them. And I agree with you, that you could only get individuals who have actually blown, who finally have cleared their mind, to testify to false imprisonment (no current Scientologist would admit to this, because they don’t believe it and don’t want to leave).
Mick Roberts, yes I know the that definition. But PROVING that in court beyond a reasonable doubt is almost impossible (due to the subjective nature of the definition itself).
Thus no D.A. will take the shot. As evidenced that none have even though many, many people have left under such circumstances and have publicized the incidents broadly.
Jumping in with my two cents. IMO the best chance of hastening the demise of Scientology is suing the organization for (what appears to be) a fairly large number of child sexual abuse cases. No statute of limitations. Status as a religion won’t shield them. Appealing for lawyers due to potential payouts from a wealthy organization. Good chance of proving conspiracy at high levels. Possibility of key Scientology players required to testify and maybe being personally sued and/or held criminally accountable. If the ball gets rolling it wouldn’t surprise me to see some Hubbard type disappearance among the highest management levels. The chaos would be likely to reverberate throughout.
Not a perfect solution. Not justice for so many. But pragmatic and, I think, could lead to faster decline and even implosion.
Would be great to do so. Unfortunately, there’s still a stigma in American society where we indirectly “blame the victim” (or at least it is insinuated). Getting someone to testify to something as personal as sexual abuse is difficult for victims of statutory rape, from my understanding of those victims. They would have to relive a very traumatic moment (or moments) in their lives possibly in great detail during deposition and during trial if it goes that far. Pretty difficult to discuss that out loud to a courtroom full of people that is possible to be made part of the public record, unless sealed by the judge.
And the longer it goes from the time of incident to prosecution, the more difficult it seems it is to get a conviction. The only good thing, is that if CoS tries to Fair Game a witness in a criminal trial (as opposed to a civil suit) to try to dissuade them from testifying, that could be intimidation of a witness.
Even if a case is brought forward, the upper management would likely just “deny knowledge” of the incident, destroy any mention of this in the files of the accuser and defendant, call it an “isolated incident”, and immediately remove that person from the management position (if they’re still even there) to cover their asses. Or in the case of Amy Scobee, dispute her age at the time of the incident to claim she was legally at the age of consent, then call her the aggressor in the situation.
Mick, there are a bunch of reasons why the cult is likely to remain successful at committing fraud and then getting away with it. The Wollersheim case is sufficiently long ago that it’s probably not predictive of anything happening today. More relevant is the case of Luis and Rocio Garcia regarding being told they were paying for the “cross” at the top of the Super Power building in Florida. They sued for fraud after they found out that others were told their donations were used for the same purpose. Outside a religious context, this would probably result in a civil judgment against the organization.
However, because Scientology has an internal arbitration procedure, the judge tossed the suit, even though he admitted there was strong evidence that the church had never actually done an arbitration and that the procedure was designed to be an endless hall of mirrors. The judge in the case, who had overseen trials of religious figures involved in fraud before, said that he couldn’t constitutionally get involved in how a “church” runs its internal affairs.
However, there’s plenty of reasons to believe that the “market” will take care of Scientology. The marketplace of ideas, enabled by easy communication such as Twitter, Facebook and so forth, gets the truth out about Scientology faster than ever before. The net result is that, once good information about the cult is readily at hand, very few people will ever join the organization. Membership continues to decline as people leave and aren’t replaced.
And what voluntary departures won’t do, death will. The demographic profile of the average Scientologist is someone way on the far side of 50, though there’s a secondary “hump” of their children who are also in the cult, often on staff or in the Sea Org. If it’s not already happening, the march of time will do what every lawsuit in the world won’t do.
Thanks for the insight John. I agree that time will take care of things with the flow of information available today, especially since having children in the Sea Org is still discouraged (so possibly even less “fresh meat” to recruit) and more and more people are leaving the cult, but I just wish there was a way to get this done much more quickly because when those people die off, many of them will have died having never reconnected with their “SP” family members……and then it’s too late. Just hoping for something to happen more quickly for the folks wanting to see their family members again. Can’t even imagine that kind of pain, especially for parents who still have kids who have disconnected from them.
Ortega’s post a week or so ago about Bernie Headley, a cancer patient, still not being allowed to see his daughter because of this cult really hit me hard.
As a father, I can’t imagine wanting to see and hug my daughter and just tell her one last time how much I love her…..and having a so-called “church” who claims to make families “stronger” working against me to deny me that one last opportunity before my time is finally up, and the chance to do hold her that one final time is lost forever. Just sickening to see this organization do that to another person.
True, arthritis is probably the more frequently seen common denominator of most Scientologists & ex’s now.
Mick, I started working on an answer to this, and now see that John P. has chimed in with one of his typically incisive analyses, so I am going to just add a few of the points that I was going to make that build on what he wrote. I do agree with him that we are unlikely to see any more generalized fraud cases like Wollersheim, for a number of reasons.
What we are seeing is some specific cases about abuses that are concrete – and also heart-wrenching. That echoes the general approach developing to confronting Scientology, that the issues are related to specific wrongdoings rather than things that are more general or arguably “religious.” There may be more such cases as more people depart Scientology, and with increased awareness the increased likelihood that departed members might press criminal cases before the statute of limitations has passed.
There are also stories surfacing that at points in the past there was a lot of sexual abuse going on at Scientology “orgs” including child care facilities and schools that was covered up, but that as more people leave Scientology there may be plaintiffs willing to press cases and testify. If that is all true, it could turn into as much of a debacle as it did for the Catholic Church.
The Garcia case is specifically about refunds of donations not directed to their stated purpose. Because it involves issues around Scientology’s arbitration procedure that may apply to all donations, it appears that attorneys and litigants who might file more general cases are waiting to see how the arbitration issue plays out. There are reports that a huge portion of Scientology’s “reserves” assets come from monies left on account for future services, and Scientology is actually supposed to provide refunds according to the tax exemption agreement with the IRS.
Scientology’s agreement with the IRS would probably not withstand a court challenge, particularly given other court rulings about the “fixed donations” actually being prohibited quid pro quo. No one has been willing to take on a direct challenge of the agreement. However, I wonder if there might be cause for people denied refunds for services paid in advance but not delivered, and who are unable to receive refunds from Scientology, to sue the IRS for failure to enforce that part of the agreement.
While I think that the final fate of the Scientology corporations will take a long time to play out, so long as there are large numbers of people suffering from abusive practices like disconnection, and significant members of the Sea Org suffering in abusive conditions including the RPF, it is not enough to just take a wait-and-see attitude. There probably are actions likely to speed the end of the worst abuses for the largest number of people, and to hasten an ultimate reckoning.
Just as the issue to focus on the public forum is the abuses and not the organization, I think there is an opportunity to start focusing of remedies for abuses by religious organizations or cults that are not unique to Scientology, that would help to clip the wings of organizations currently engaging in abuses and benefitting from them. These should be common-sense things that anyone could agree does not infringe on the rights of lawful and legitimate religious non-profits, thought at moment it seems like in the US we may be heading towards giving even more unquestioned leeway to any body claiming itself religious (though perhaps other nations could set an example). This would expand the already recognized principle, that in exchange for the privilege of tax exemption, organizations are held to some higher standards and accept some restrictions. Here are a few of the things that come to mind:
* Require that donations to religious tax-exempt organizations be used for their stated purpose, or returned. Any contracts signed related to those donations should be adequately explained, or risk being declared unenforceable.
* Require transparent financial accounting for larger religious organizations
* Prohibit overly complex and unaccountable corporate structures for religious organizations
* Prohibit the use of internal justice systems for criminal matters, and when such systems do exist require that they refer actual crimes reported to civil authorities
* Suspend the statute of limitations on the reporting of crimes, when victims have been living in isolated religious orders and communities
* Prohibit religious organizations from having workers or clergy sign contracts that include any form of pre-emptive gag orders or speech restrictions
* Prohibit religious organizations from having workers or clergy sign contracts that include any financial penalties or payments on leaving employment
* Require religious organizations using employment contracts to adequately explain all the provisions of the contracts, or risk have them declared unenforceable
* Require religious organizations using foreign workers
* Require larger religious organizations to set up medical plans, and to have retirement plans or else pay into Social Security and Medicare
This last item could be said to fall under the principle of having large religious organizations carry their weight, rather than exploiting what are effectively back-door subsidies for their social costs.
Good list PeaceMaker. I think most Christian churches could live with that (with a few exceptions). Christian churches, at least in America, would have to go along with it. I would also add “Fair Pay” and “No Child Labor” to that list. The problem is, anytime you mention putting any restrictions on religion (even common sense restrictions), that throws up an immediate red flag to the religious right. Would be a long and difficult, uphill battle to make these changes…..possibly even in the form of a Constitutional amendment, which is nearly impossible.
Mick, I’m not sure if this comment following up on your response to my list of legislative actions that could be taken, is going to post to the right place. If this does show up somewhere odd, please know that it connects to the topic.
I cited the things that I did, because they are all pretty reasonable. And because most of them could be accomplished through some fine-tuning of laws or regulations, not necessarily major legislation.
I would agree with you about no child labor, I am not sure that is as much an issue of needing new laws and regulations as it is for enforcement of existing ones.
As for pay, the tricky aspect that Scientology exploits are the exceptions for volunteers and members of religious orders, which mainstream religions use as well. I can’t right off think of what could be reasonably done about volunteers, except again to limit their being subject to contract restrictions, and perhaps classify them differently should they actually be working full-time and permanently residing in group housing. As for religious orders, which would (or should) cover the Sea Org, it would be reasonable and in line with what responsible mainstream religions do to require the provision of health care (so that they’re not using public services, and thus being taxpayer subsidized) and retirement planning.
You point to the problem, that the religious right seems to reflexively object to almost any laws except those which open up more exemptions. I think that there may be an opening after public attention and legal action regarding the various abuses and exploitations being perpetrated by the large fundamentalist Mormon groups, and possibly in the aftermath of exposure of Scientology as well. But it may take some very sensational events, like the use of religious cover by truly extremist muslim groups, before the religious right realizes that they have opened up exemptions without enough checks and balances to ensure that they are not used for ill intents.
Absolute Lunacy! And Old Ron since you are still hanging around apparently,you have to get out more and come up with some new Ronisms. The old ones are stale and rotten. dm knows the score and he will never stop regging for money. Never. ?
Dave,
Whoop-de-do Update:
The low budget tenant improvement (where did you stash all of that cash?) on your new Mortuary in the Valley now has a new coat of stucco. Will you be revealing how many granules of stucco were applied to the exterior of your Mortuary the next time you get a hankering to yank a ribbon?
Ikea has now opened its largest store in the Northern Hemisphere just down the road in Burbank. At nearly 500,000 square feet (if your Macallan Single Malt is making it difficult to count the zeros, that is half a million square feet in one building). This includes an 1,800 square foot restaurant; not one of those dinky Cafes that you like. Talk about straight-up-and-vertical.
Their income puts your cult’s trafficking and thuggery business model in the gutter where it belongs. Has Ikea made an offer on your SP Building White Elephant to help revitalize the financially blighted Fort Harrison Avenue that you have created in Clearwater along with the rest of the downtown area? Eminent Domain is headed down the pike; they plan to show you the sidewalk.
We live 40 mins from Cambridge and after watching the show and following your blog… we have decided we are going to take a drive to see “the activity” there. We just can’t believe in our right minds that there are actual people [COS drones] that live in Ontario that actually go to this place. Our curiosity has gotten the better of us and we feel compelled to go and see it for ourselves! Mike, is there anything you would like us to check out [or photograph/video] re: this facility for your own curiosities?? We stand behind you and Leah 100% in exposing the sham and ending their legal rights as a “church” and tax exemptions; and I read your blogs every day! All the best to you and your families Mike! Cheers from Ontario!
Love to see shots of the parking lot at the time of this briefing — or any time. Go in, look around if you can. Just dont give a real name or address or email…
Yes, and be doubly sure you don’t give a real name as I’m sure OSA watches this blog and will no doubt have seen your actual name. Personally, I’d like to see all and any pics you can get either inside or out of the place.
I’m curious about what the San Diego org survey consists of. Are surveys a Scientology thing and, if so, for what purpose?
The Scientologists used to come to beautiful Balboa Park to try and get anyone to listen to them. Years ago, I spotted them in the park. So, I sat down and the gal had me hold the cans. I didn’t last very long, as my wife wanted to head Old Town.
I chitchated with the Scientologist for awhile. I asked her how long she had been in. She replied, 30 years. I then said, “You probably know my cousin, David Mayo.”
She said, “You don’t still talk to him, do you!” (she was pissed at this point)
I replied, “Why would I let a cult stop me from talking to a family member?” At that point she asked me to leave. Now, Mayo is not family, but he was in so long, I figured she would know him.
My wife and I were down in San Diego for my birthday, this last weekend. When we went to Balboa Park, there was no sign of them.
You devil you… you told a fib!
And a big fat one at that! I don’t know….it’s just so much fun!
Sec checks all around!
And the sec checks are on me! We can throw back a few brews and start sec checking like mad!
Can we get sec checked on the beach? This has always been a fantasy of mine 🙂
Or we could just start breaking a few fingers!
Now you’re talkin’!
Well for one thing it probably has questions like have you been to the Org before, ever done a course, read a book, heard of Scientology etc. Ever had any contact with local Scientologists? Who? (BECAUSE MOST OF THE SCIENTOLOGISTS IN THE AREA ARE INACTIVE OR DECLARED SUPPRESSIVE)
I drove by the San Diego Org the other night on my way downtown and the new Ideal First Floor is basically open to large windows facing the street. Didn’t recognize a single person on staff and there were no public to be seen.
All of them look like good happy people….
It’s the very first time that I can recall the use of the word “LOVE” in anything I’ve ever read in scio…since 1966! I wonder if the person who wrote it will be comm eved? And if they want a civilization without criminals, they might begin internally. Maybe at the very top of the org board???
My eyes, my brain!! Insanity overload.
I laughed to myself when I read this! Why? So true. So VERY true.
Wait…what? A Scientologist actually used the word “love???” I believe that’s a RPF’s RPF situation, isn’t it?
It’s code. Spelled backwards it’s ‘evol’, ie evil said with an accent.
Whoa!!! Evil has an accent! How bitchin’ is that? I hope it’s not one of those sissy accents.
Me too!
Aaron Update on post show aftermath: https://youtu.be/te3mUL7Wzys
This train has left the station…..
Damn! I’m stuck in Lodi again.