It seems inappropriate to run the Thursday Funnies this morning in light of the events at the Inglewood Ideal org last evening.
Tony Ortega, as he always does, is keeping up with the story and you can follow the news at his blog. He does a great job of sorting the bs from the real facts.
Someone being killed, wherever it occurs, is horrendous and tragic. The circumstances of this death remain unclear, and somewhat mysterious.
Either the person who was shot by police is someone who had contact with scientology and was upset about something they had done or were doing, or the person had no prior involvement with scientology and was a “stranger.”
You can sure if it is the former — it was a scientologist shot by police — the response from scientology will be VERY different than if this was a previously unknown person.
If this was a scientologist or someone known to the organization, scientology will do everything they can to distance themselves from him and claim he was “damaged by psychiatry” or “he had been excommunicated” or some other “explanation”. They will go to great lengths to try to suppress anything that might suggest that the man was upset by predatory regging, refusal to return money or breaking up of a family. This will all be “irrelevant.”
On the other hand, if this person was unknown to the organization, scientology will be out of the gates with accusations that this is “another” in a long series of violent acts directly attributable to The Aftermath. Back in the day, the blame was always put at the feet of “the psychs” — or even “big pharma” but never anything that scientology had done. Today, everything is caused by The Aftermath.
Because we know so little at this point, all we can do is watch. It will be interesting to see how scientology spins this (as it will be spun either way). So far, the STAAD League has not erupted with their usual outrage.
Even yesterday, scientology knew whether the person shot by police was a scientologist or not. The fact that they have not yet tried to blame The Aftermath is interesting. Perhaps it is simply that they cannot get their statements authorized because David Miscavige was not available.
Some pronouncement is bound to be forthcoming soon and it will speak volumes to those who understand the machinations of scientology.
None of your suppositions are true. Word is he took the sword back to the Bentley at the urging of the people there. He was unarmed at the time of the shooting.
…and you know all this how exactly?
There’s this thing on the internet called “dox or stfu”.
“Word”from WHO Truth?
The name of the young man killed at the org has now been released, though little more is known at this point:
https://tonyortega.org/2019/04/01/sword-wielding-bentley-driving-man-killed-by-police-at-scientology-org-identified/
Several years ago he was espousing some of the same sort of “new age” type beliefs that I’ve seen among indies, alternate universes and such, including promoting a “program” about “quantum jumping” apparently based on books and courses by someone* involved in 1960s groups like Paramahansa Yogananda’s SRF and Mind/Mental Dynamics – Silva Mind Control (which Werner Erhard was connected to before starting The est Training). That doesn’t necessarily imply any connection to Scientology, but it means that Hubbardian beliefs could have been attractive to him.
Apparently there’s no internet history to be found for him since 2015, which seems strange for a young person in this day and age. That’s certainly the sort of thing that Scientology’s OSA would have been trying to scrub it if showed any connection to members or orgs.
Also, as far as first reports being wrong, he’s apparently mixed-race but not Asian, though with an appearance that could be taken for several different things, and was listed as African-American on his death certificate.
I don’t think there’s much point in speculating, except that I suspect it will be frustratingly slow and hard to get any further information, as if he was in fact connected to the org or anyone there, Scientology will have done their utmost to prevent that from becoming known or detailed. Also, now that the coroner has release his name and any confidentiality or investigatory issues are moot, we can probably tell something from how Scientology propaganda spins the incident; if they don’t capitalize on it to promote themselves as the victims of bigotry and hate mongering, that would tend to indicate that he wasn’t a complete stranger to the CofS.
* Burt Goldman
There are a few additional details about the man, including a screenshot of his mostly (conveniently?) deleted Scientology playlist on YouTube, in a post over at ESMB:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/threads/person-fatally-shot-at-cos-inglewood.49997/page-4#post-1204185
Some additional details coming in about connections to Scientology, have been posted to the Bunker article:
“UPDATE: Some evidence that Statler was at least aware of Scientology shows up on his YouTube footprint.
He subscribed to a YouTube channel called “Up the Bridge Now!” that consisted of a single video, a Scientology Super Bowl ad.
He also created a YouTube playlist he called “Scientology,” which consisted of six videos, four of which have expired. Of the remaining two, one appears to be a Church of Scientology video that demonstrates a technique in L. Ron Hubbard’s book Dianetics. The other is a 2007 Mark Bunker video about Scientologists shouting instructions at ashtrays.
We’ll keep looking…”
5 days now, and still no account of what actually happened and who was involved. There’s just this one amateur video reporting that someone on the scene had said that the assailant might have worked there, and definitely had “a prior relationship that didn’t go so well”:
https://youtu.be/adPz8NNI8dE
It seems that might have originated with someone who evacuated from the org, and who was in shock and blurted out what they knew. The all too convenient for Scientology delay by the police in releasing any information, has given them time to coach or threaten anyone how knows anything, to scrub social media, and so on. It will be interesting to see what we finally hear and when, what the implications are, and if we ever even get the truth.
Peacemaker,
I’m hoping they update soon. I’m still tweeting to the LAPD (I haven’t been too polite due to the “foot in mouth” fiasco earlier) and the LA times. But nothing yet. First official weekend on twitter so I’m not sure if I’m doing it correctly!!!
Kat
Kat, thanks for your work. Inglewood has their own police department that responded to the crime, as can been seen in photos of the scene, so it’s their jurisdiction unless for some reason the LA County Sheriffs took over the investigation.
Apparently the coroner’s office has released the man’s name – and it looks like Inglewood does rely on the LA County The Department of Medical Examiner-Coroner for that work.
Now what we need is the police report, which would reveal what investigators found out about the man’s connections to Scientology.
Peacemaker,
I tweeted all of them including Inglewood just to be safe! I also saw an “update” on one of the front sites claiming that he wasn’t a member and had never had ANY contact, which I find unbelievable (they took it down fairly quickly, so I think he may have been a member after all). Usually, you don’t have that much rage for an anonymous group you don’t know about. If he was a mental patient, he must have had his stuff together to get a drivers license and either buy or rent a Bentley- they ain’t cheap, and you can’t rent one if you’re obviously mentally unstable. We’ll see. I’ll keep knocking my head against the brick wall until they release info.
Kat
As my other post noted, the deceased man had a Scientology playlist on his video channel. It’s unlikely that someone with that much interest wouldn’t have “checked it out for himself” as the saying goes, so it seems unlikely that he picked and org at random.
The suspect had a history of auto theft, so it’s possible that the Bentley was stolen, which would explain why it had showroom plates on it.
Research currently under way shows that his mother’s name is probably Meadors, an unusual name that happens to be that of some people in the upper levels of Scientology, so it could get interesting….
AA,
I still like the minion reference as it is so apt. And the bumbling creatures in the movie would be appropriate, except that there are way too many of them and they have a lot of laughs which would never be permitted. I kinda thought that was why Mike used them in his Thursday Funnies.
Foolproof: “Agreed! It’s what I’ve been saying all along! (Your last sentence that is – haha!)’
SERIOUSLY???? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black…..
No one posts more that you do………
Yeah, but I’m a good guy (and not a psychologist out to become famous)! Haha!
Famous? So, how many psychologists are actually famous?? Come on now.
KatherineINCali,
I don’t think the fool realizes that his premise is flawed and there really aren’t many famous psychologists….except maybe Dr. Phil.
Kat
And I’ve heard HIM referred to as DR FOOL…..hhmmmm I wonder???
F.P. “a good guy”…hmmm…I’ll reserve judgment on that comment until I get to know HIM better. I wasn’t sure if F.P. was male or female…at least know we know.
Lol.
O.K….so Kat….what GETS me about Dr Phil is that he counsels other people on marriages talking about his OWN marriage to Robin & how wonderful it is…blah blah blah….
Dr Phil FAILS TO MENTION ON ANY OF HIS TALK SHOWS THAT HE TOO IS DIVORCED! HIs first marriage was a BIG flop & HE was not “WELL KNOWN” before Oprah made him a big talk show star. You NEVER hear Dr Phil mention ONE WORD about his FAILED FIRST MARRIAGE or WHY his first marriage failed. .
An “idol with clay feet” who critiques the problems OTHERS have in THEIR marriages and what THEY are doing WRONG, but Dr Phil NEVER mentions the things that went wrong in HIS first marriage & why it failed. DO AS I SAY NOT AS I DO
Foolproof said, “Cindy is now attacking me because of your clever insertion of “That’s a terrible stat!” above…” No FP, I don’t just take whatever Mike says and then make it my own. I made that comment about the stats of attacks on Scn because of what YOU said. Here is what you said:
” So in effect, in 70 or so years of Scientology existence we have 4 or 5 cases of such. That’s a pretty low stat would you not agree?”
You tried to make less of it and act like it is a very low stat, the number of shootings, sword waving, and other attacks on the C of S. You said it is a “pretty low stat” I said no, it is a horrible stat. Other churches go hundreds of years without any incident of it and Scn in its only 70 or so years had had more than their share of it, making it a high stat. I was pushing back against your statement that 5 incidents in 70 years is a “low stat.” It is not. You also tried to paint me as a sycophant of Mike Rinder’s, someone who is so influenced by him that I would parrot anything coming from his mouth. This also is untrue and is your own misdirector from the real issue.
See my reply to your original post below. if you want to keep taking it that way well carry on.
According to El Con Tubboard, a person who has completed his Pro TRs Course should have been able to handle the sword wielding maniac without calling the cops.
Hmm…
Chee said”Dave should be up in 6-7 hours and then a statement will be issued 3 hours later after he rejects the first 25 drafts”
More properly, he’ll regain consciousness about that time. Otherwise, masterful deduction, I’d say.
I’ve been guessing that both the LAPD and Scientology have been holding off on following up, so that embarrassing details will get the least possible attention, and be released far enough away from Wednesday’s sensation events that the connection will lost on many people. So they could well wait until the notorious best day of the week for that, Sunday, when press releases get the least attention – we’ll see.
And given the delay, it seems more than likely, that the details will indeed be embarrassing.
Provocation is a mighty weapon having the power to make down up but it’s a double-edged sword also having the power to make down everlasting down.
Scientology ia a bloody serious thing depending on every members hard-working. R2-45 is as a troubleshooting process exteriorizing thetans.
Roger Larsson said:”Provocation is a mighty weapon having the power to make down up but it’s a double-edged sword also having the power to make down everlasting down.”
Excuse me, Roger, but could you please restate that intelligibly? I’ve no clue who you’re responding to or what you intended to say.
To make the whole world to a big smile is to make it to a smiley. It’s to do the whole world to a smiley misunderstood or not.
Not to be nasty, but i couldnt help but chuckle at the one news report that stated “there were 5 people in the building at the time”
5 people only! inglewood is booming straight up and vertical!
Alex:”5 people only! inglewood is booming straight up and vertical!”
YUP! for Inglewood, that IS straight up and vertical. ANYthing greater than zero is near-infinite growth, relatively. AND, unsaid but inferred, those were all NOI recruits, about as dedicated to scientology as DM really is. HIS dedication is to accumulating all the cash and power he can. They’re there because they were told to.
300 people in the Org??
As if. They wish.
They’ll probably say it was actually 800 ?
Oops — meant to reply below. My bad.
On the local CBS news last night the “church” claimed there were 300 people in the building at the time. Yeah riiiight. I’m sure that’s provable bullshit. The police report needs to be made public
Five people, eh?
I know I read yesterday somewhere, not sure where now, but somewhere, that the cult said there were 300 people in the building at the time!
Oh, well, why am I nit-picking?
What’s 295 people, after all?
Any death is of course a tragedy but by the looks of things it would seem the two LAPD officers shot each other.
Considering their record in the community I assure you any reasonable person finds that fact hilarious.
If Sword-Wielder charged at one or both of them, or if he charged at one or more of the staff, its possible the cops had to shield and/ or dodge and/or shoot at the same time which could have affected their aim. Its also possible that one cop leaped to shield the other…really, there could be any number of possibilities as to why they shot one another accidentally, if that is what happened. The important thing is this lunatic is now dead. I know that sounds harsh and cold, like I have no feelings or compassion for a troubled person. Well, I do have compassion for such a person but its for the person he TRULY is. Or was. Which is NOT who he’s being right now! He’s not being “himself”. God only knows WHAT he’s being, or why. People start out OK and then, somehow, some of them turn into lunatics who will kill strangers for no readily apparent reason, and in that situation does his reason really matter, by the way? Would knowing why be helpful right then? There’s some stranger who wants to kill you all of a sudden. You do the best you can to defend yourself in the moment, that’s all. I hope it never happens to you.
Sorry, I can’t help myself:
Scientology, what did you do to pull this in????????
Jim said:”Sorry, I can’t help myself:
Scientology, what did you do to pull this in????????”
That’s a VERY appropriate question IMO.
Yes, indeed, with no sarcasm intended, in Scientology THAT QUESTION COULD NOT BE MORE SPOT ON.
And how I would love to be able to ask it of them.
Been checking every once in a while for updates. Haven’t seen anything yet.
Drudge even took their notification of it down.
If there were people clamoring for more info, the press would be forcing the local police and DA to get out a statement. Deafening silence.
I guess nobody really cares.
LDW said:”If there were people clamoring for more info, the press would be forcing the local police and DA to get out a statement. Deafening silence.
I guess nobody really cares.”
BINGO! Isn’t it sad that only the “bitter defrocked apostates” are paying any attention it?
I’m not sure pressure would make a difference. There could actually have been some difficulty in determining who the assailant really was. It’s also likely that both the CofS and the LAPD are struggling to figure out just what happened, and figure out how to present it to the public; it also benefits both for time to pass, as follow-on stories about what did happen, will get less attention.
“Unidentified Asian” is often libspeak for “muslim”. If the incident has even a whiff of being Islamically motivated, that could explain the delay in information being released. And why Parkin remains silent. Maybe.
Oh, screw you. A guy’s dead and you want to whine about liberals.
Agreed.
Why are so many ex Scientologists reactionary, right wing, fascists ?
Is it the demographic of the type of person who joins a cult to begin with ?
From what I’ve read so far this incident has all the earmarks of one YUGE clusterfuck for both Scientology AND the Inglewood PD.
Whether or not he was one of their sheeple, past or present, I’m guessing (guessing now!) that Co$ is HOPING AGAINST HOPE that this Asian guy who drove up in the Bentley and waived a sword around inside Co$ Inglewood ALSO had a gun concealed on him.
And I’m guessing that Inglewood PD are hoping the same thing.
And I’m guessing that Sword Waiver did NOT have a gun concealed on him.
Which is why Sword Waiver’s name has not been released yet.
Panic. Utter panic, on the part of our favorite cult and the Inglewood police.
And as re the cult, if – OMG, IF this guy ever took services there, or in any Scn Org – whoo hoo, there have to be shredding parties going on right now!
People who live in Inglewood mostly don’t drive Bentleys, I wouldn’t think.
This Asian guy very likely had MONEY.
What a mess!
A PR nightmare for Inglewood Org and CO$.
A sticky wicket for the local police.
I’m guessing.
All conjecture on my part until we get the facts.
Conjecture: Well why are you bothering to utter it all then?
Did the Inglewood Org pull it in or not, Foolproof?
See my answer above – can you read, or not? If your beef with Scientology is reduced to such mundane tete-a-tetes then God help you. So anyway, SIT DOWN ON THAT CHAIR!
Good ol’ FP, never right, but always entertaining.
A big ha ha right back atcha, FP!
This is a sincere question so it doesn’t require any attitude or anger in response.
Hubbard claimed that people are responsible for everything — good and bad — that happens to them, i.e. they “pulled it in”.
So, when someone asks the exact same thing about a person who entered an org with intent to harm, why is it “mundane”??
Mundane, as you know, means repetitive, tedious, tiresome, unremarkable… etc, etc.
So, when $cientology tells someone they “pulled it in”, that would clearly be tedious, repetitive, tiresome, and unremarkable… right?
@Foolproof,
I see. Nothing must be communicated without all pertinent facts being known and provable.
Sorry, I didn’t realize we were in criminal court.
Earth to FP:
This is a BLOG, dear.
Conjecture, clearly labelled as such and not palmed off as fact, is fine, not only for a blog but for ordinary conversations between people.
Thank you, next?
Aqua,
Herein lies the difficulty, as I see it. You do not have the pertinent hat-write-up, you have not word cleared the pack, nor have you had a star-rated checkout on the pack. If you had then you would not have had to have gone off and conjecturfied, you would know the exact steps to get the end product of this sit (situation) to a Scientology win.
What I am trying to tell you in a nice way is : “What do your materials say?”
@ FPjr,
LOL! Well, FLUNK ME, totally. May I have my pink sheet please?
Okey dokey. No problemo. But then replies to conjecture is also ok. Especially when most here take conjecture as “fact”.
Thanks FP. Understood and agreed, and also agreed that some here do take conjecture as fact. I suspect those who do are ESL, not understanding the “would”s and “might”s and “if”s and so forth, and therefore conflating subjunctive mode with declarative mode, etc.
Que??
I’m still wondering what the heck the Bentley had to do with it, OTHER than the irony of a car of that sort being in that neighborhood. My wife commented that it is bad form for scn to establish such an OSTENTATIOUS building in such a neighborhood. That alone would engender bad feelings toward scn. I told her to NOT try to make logical sense out of an insane situation, that anything connected to scn is by definition likely to be illogical if not insane.
Methinks I may be too optimistic about the subject as I review the situation.
The Bentley angle suggests this wasn’t the more sadly typical case of a struggling individual who had some past involvement with Scientology, and returned because of an ongoing obsession. Or maybe it’s basically that, but involving the family of a Scientology “whale,” or someone notable. It suggests that the story, when it comes out, is going to be unusual, maybe even extraordinary.
A blue-collar co-worker always drove unbelievably high-dollar cars, considering his $35k annual income. He had a sideline with his brother, buying and selling cars from the police impound lot, and from local car-auction sites. So he could invest in a grand Mercedes, drive it for six months, sell it for a profit, and the next day be driving a fine Lexus. I never saw him driving a Rolls or a Bentley, though; depending on the year it might not be beyond his reach.
However, it the Japanese sword turns out to be a fine sword forged by a master, and not something stamped out for WW II Japanese officers, it would be a sign of real wealth.
This is definitely a case for Sherlock Holmes. He would cut through all of the suggestions and speculation and “sadly typical [4 or 5] cases” even though they are extremely rare occurrences. Elementary my dear Watson eh?
Sherlock Holmes is mah man.
Here you go, FP:
“Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”
-Arthur Conan Doyle.
OUTPOINT:
MUCHO Missing Applicable Data. Not even the guy’s name, and its been 5 days. MOST irregular. This in itself is suspicious because it has been reported that the coroner knows his name. The alleged perpetrator HAS been identified. Yet his name still has not been released and its 5 days, and counting…
Curiouser and curiouser…
What would Sherlock say?
This whole thing is tragic on multiple levels, and it seems to be ratcheting up every week. The cult is courting craziness; first in its policies toward disconnection and the punishment meted out for imagined wrongs, then with the NOI, then with their responses to perceived ‘wrongs’ done by former members. What do they think is going to happen? They eschew psychiatric help for those who may be unstable, foster paranoia, create emotionally distanced families, and remove any real support system by encouraging snitching. WHY would they be confused when violence erupts around them?? They really cannot blame anyone but themselves for what has been happening (although I am sure they will blame everyone BUT themselves). I hate to say it, but there will likely be more violent episodes before it is over, simply because that is the only recourse they have left open for many of their followers and their loved ones.
I’m sure they will work very hard to spin this so that it can be blamed on the people trying to shed light on the situations within the cult (i.e. Mike and Leah). It will be interesting to see what they come up with, but I think it will be blamed on bigotry (if its not a scientologist), the fault of the so called ‘lies’ the person heard from the ‘religious bigots’ that forced him to take this action (if he was a scientologist) or that he was removed from the cult due to some imagined shortcoming that prevented him from conforming to the high standards of ethics within the church (probably because he listened to the ‘bigots’). These seem to be the only three responses they have for any negative that happens. I guess we will see which it is.
Kat
One thing that can usually be relied on in these cases – the person involved was receiving psychological or psychiatric “treatment”. Perhaps the poor fellow was getting his brain “mapped”? Let’s wait and see before making political hay eh!
FP, another false assumption, and more fallacious argumentation –
Jeremy Perkins was only treated with Scientology methods, and explicitly denied access to psychiatric care, before he killed his mother, who was a senior auditor at the Buffalo org: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Elli_Perkins
Jairus Godeika, who attacked the Portland Org in 1996, only had a history with Scientology, not psychiatry.
Mario Majorski, the last sword-wielding attacker killed at an LA-area org, had been a dedicated scientologist who was involved in some of CCHR’s legal attacks on psychiatrists.
Psychiatry is no more responsible for murders, than is the criminal justice system – many troubled people end up involved with one or the other as a matter of course, before their behavior unfortunately escalates.
That’s actually one of well-know the tricks of memory, and cognitive biases: you remember the cases in which your biases seemed to be confirmed, and not the ones in which they weren’t.
And it’s lead you into a form of false cause fallacy, mistakenly assuming cause and effect:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Questionable_cause
See my answer below – and this before I had even read your above comment – you’d launched off into your “research” before one could say hot dawg! There’s about 50,000 of these cases every year worldwide, most of whom have been to see psychs.
FOOLproof:”There’s about 50,000 of these cases every year worldwide, most of whom have been to see psychs.”
Interesting assertion. Care to back it up with some evidence? I’ll bet’cha you can only find someone else’s unfounded assertion somewhere in the scientology.org domain.
BTW: Would you care to specify what you mean by “…of these cases…”? IMO, if a guy walking into any sort of establishment brandishing a sword happened on the order of 50,000 times a year, it wouldn’t be news that anyone would be likely to pay attention to. “Dog bites man” isn’t news. “Man bites dog” IS.
Religious institutions are attacked almost weekly – synagogues, christian churches, mosques, temples – don’t you read the news?
So, yes, thank you for your wonderful research again. So in effect, in 70 or so years of Scientology existence we have 4 or 5 cases of such. That’s a pretty low stat would you not agree?
And as for these cases: the Jarius dude – “He did not do any services in any org.” (ESMB) (see – I’ve done a bit of real research now!), It seems Majorski was kicked out of the Church long before he went wild. I can’t be bothered to “research” the others.
Sorry to spoil your little alarming piece of fake news!
No. I think that is a terrible stat.
You’ve disallowed my comment in reply here. Surely not to put me in a bad light eh?
We love your comments, FP, it gets everyone researching facts, and facts are a good thing. Try it some time.
Ha ha, just joking, I know Hubbard wrote everything anyone ever needed to know.
Don’t forget the most recent one – the guy on trial in Arizona for chopping up his sister.
He was a lifelong Scientologist. His parents ran the Alaska Org, IIRC
4 + 1 = 5! Oh! Ok!
Sigh, if only Hubbard had researched how many angels can dance on the head of a pin that ages-old question would be moot.
Foolproof,
ANY deaths are too many.
Kat
FP, your superficial attempt at “research” apparently only turned up someone recounting what the official CofS story circulated in the org was. The second posting in the topic on ESMB actually says this, citing a source confirming the shooter’s involvement in Scientology, and suggesting that he may have done the purification rundown specifically:
“I found the original article. He was a Scientologist:
They said he and his estranged wife, Christina, met while he was a student. The two married in Vancouver and lived there for three or four months before moving to Portland.
About five years into the marriage, they said, Godeka found Scientology.
A month after he did, the in-laws said, Godeka sold his belongings, including a stereo the couple owned, and left his wife.
“The Church of Scientology told him he had to cleanse or purify himself and to leave her,” Christina’s mother said. “He was fine until he got involved with that church.”
more at link: http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/shooting-spotlights-scientology.htm”
In addition, what Godeka himself told a detective in his initial police interview, was that he had begun his involvement in Scientology in Portland years before
“but he dropped out of the church briefly because his mind was saying something was wrong.”
Then, there’s this account in which he describes TRs, and identifies the person who taught his comm course – I verified that there was in fact a longtime Portland CC staffer named Murray Marvin:
“Godeka, describing his life in America, recounts that he returned to Portland in 1995 when ‘He saw his other friends graduating from college and obtaining stable employment. Marital issues escalated, and he admits to occasional physical altercation. Feeling despondent, he noted that John Travolta, a well-recognized individual, was coming to Portland. He therefore went to the Scientology Celebrity Center [on Salmon street] and was given a personality test. It was then recommended that he complete at [sic] $40.00 Communication course taught by an individual named Murray. This is described as a confrontation in which he and the teacher would stare at one another until one blinked, and this was to teach him how to confront today’s society. He states that this was the beginning of his problems. In retrospect, he believes that they ‘hypnotized me.’ he later learned that they were doing ‘mind research,’ and that he became a subject of ‘telepathy.’ These individuals could ‘stay in my mind and be part of me,’ and that ‘my mind and body became an apartment for Scientology roommates.’ After returning from Alaska [where he worked in a cannery], he went once again to the Celebrity Center, stated that he had been in Alaska, but could tell by the Scientologists’ response that they knew of his whereabouts, thoughts and behavior.'” http://www.religio.de/publik/arsreview/261097.html#7
He apparently also had some involvement with the org in San Francisco, as well, as reported in The Oregonian:
“THE SHOOTING: VIOLENCE VISITS SCIENTOLOGY
Thursday, September 26, 1996
….
At one point, Godeka told Burke that his anger stemmed from something that had happened at the San Francisco branch, but that the Church of Scientology is all “the same thing.””
So the end result of your mammoth amount of verbiage is that the dude did a comm course and then either decided that Scientology wasn’t for him or the Church kicked him out as it seems he was originally some sort of nut. So every person who has done a Communication Course is now a “Scientologist” eh? You get all sorts straight in off the street on the Comm Course. Your research is twisted phooey as usual.
And the woman who originally reported this on ESMB is now no longer a Scientologist and simply told what transpired without any added fluffing up, unlike you. She was there.
Godeika did a comm course, possibly the purif, and maybe more that we don’t know about over the course of his involvement with orgs in 2 different states. Has the CofS ever provided evidence of what he didn’t or didn’t do, and if so, why not if it would exonerate them? It also appears that the TRs in the Comm Course may have been enough to send an unstable individual like him into psychosis – Scientology’s dangerous negligence in subjecting “all sorts straight in off the street” to even such procedures is, in fact, demonstrative of the problems with Scientology, and the hazards.
And it’s Scientology that has defined scientologist as everyone who has ever read a book or taken a course – because it’s supposedly that life-altering. Except that the CofS would probably deny that you are really a scientologist, and say that you were “kicked out of the Church long before,” wouldn’t they?
The woman on ESMB just reported what was circulating around the org, which was likely a “shore story” – even you don’t trust the CofS, do you? I cited accounts of the police interrogation of Godeika in which he confirmed inside knowledge of Scientology course techniques and staff names, and other sources with direct knowledge, and contact with him.
How can a dead body and two shot policemen be a “fake stat” FP? That’s as real and gruesome as it gets. Wake up. Or go back to OSA where you came from, troll.
Please, no calls for FP to disembark his personal Titanic before the iceberg. Everyone welcome, mostly, and like the old biblical psalm, there is a time, or something, even for FP.
I have come to appreciate his devil’s advocacy, no matter how much it stinks of Acceptable Truth, though he probably does not appreciate mine.
Fake stat? What are you on about? I was talking about the fake news of Peacemaker’s hyperbole. You had best re-read what I wrote. Or rather don’t bother, you’ll misunderstand it or misconstrue it again. You see Mike has cleverly inserted “that’s a terrible stat” above trying to make out that I am some sort of inhuman monster and you have focused on and fallen for it.
FOOLproof said”
“So, yes, thank you for your wonderful research again. So in effect, in 70 or so years of Scientology existence we have 4 or 5 cases of such. That’s a pretty low stat would you not agree?”
NO, it’s NOT a low stat, since crazy people entering real places of worship brandishing swords (or other lethal weapons) is a vanishingly small number, even searching worldwide & over 2,000 years of history, not scn’s mere 68-year history. Even in Inglewood, a guy running around waving a sword is remarkable, unusual. Particularly in Inglewood or any other idle morg, ANYone entering, with or without a weapon, is unusual; strange, something to be noted.
No, like Cindy, you have latched on to Mike’s very cleverly inserted “that is a terrible stat” and now try to juxtapose or confuse “low” with “ok”. My original statement was that people doing this sort of thing were in the majority, people who had been receiving psych treatment. And I think you will find worldwide that people running amok is not so unusual. And your last sentence is exactly what I was implying – Peacemaker was the one inflating and making out that this was occurring often. I did indeed point out that such things in a Scientology Church are extremely rare, as you say. You really need to read what is stated and not misconstrue because you think I think in a certain way that others imply about me.
Fool,
I previously posted that psychology and psychiatry exists to try to help people. It doesn’t always work. Just like a doctor can’t cure every disease. If someone comes for help, help will be attempted but not always taken.
Just for fun, let’s assume your belief that all these violent people attacking places of worship and other public venues have seen psychiatrists or psychologists. This profession deals with imbalanced people, people who are having emotional upsets, and individuals who need help on some level. If you look at the total number of patients for every psychologist and psychiatrist, the incidence of your stated numbers would be a very small percentage.
It’s like saying that since everyone who dies has been to see a doctor then it means they die because of doctors!
I know you will ignore this, but I’m an everlasting optimist, so I just can’t help myself.
Just becuase someone was kicked out of the church “before he went wild” as you say, doesn’t mean that he didn’t have upsets with the church that festered and made him eventually attack the church. And did the fact of being “kicked out of the church” act as a catalyst for his upset against the church?
I’m sorry, but that argument of “we kicked him out before he went wild and attacked us” doesn’t wash with me. What did the church do to him to bring this on before it? In Dianetics auditing, you ask for the “earlier beginning” when running an incident. I think those investigating should ask for the earlier part of this guy’s story with the church. And there you will find that the church is culpable.
If Majorski had won the Nobel Prize, I’m pretty sure Scientology would have been claiming him as a member, rather than disowning him. Hubbard’s “kha khan” policy about “get away with murder” would cover it, if nothing else.
FP may be making up the part about him being “kicked out,” or repeating some internal propaganda, in a typical attempt at dismissal, because even Scientology’s spokesman Tommy Davis didn’t claim that at the time:
“Majorski had been a Scientologist in the early 1990s but appeared to have left the church about 15 years ago, Davis said.” https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Man-killed-at-Scientology-center-an-ex-member-3183310.php
Embarrassingly for “Foolproof,” Majorski’s Scientology involvement in the years prior to the fatal incident turns out to have been with indies, including going to a Freezone convention:
http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?t=29642
“Regarding Mario’s Tattoo’s, yes, he had lots. And, most of them symbols of ARC/KRC and other church related icons. He was a true lover of the tech and LRH! “
Haha! It goes from ludicrous to even more ludicrous. Now, not even I or indeed anyone even in the Church would have ARC and KRC triangles tattooed on his body. Yes, Scientology, by its nature and what it offers, attracts all sorts Peacemaker eh? I think it is C/S Series 25 that Hubbard mentions this of attracting psychos to the HGC etc. It’s all very well to post “data”, but analyzing it is a slightly more difficult matter Peacemaker eh?
And as for going to Freezone Conventions, well even Brian, sorry I mean Brain, goes there in the hope that he can dissuade people from doing Scientology. (BTW Marildi, if you are reading this, make sure to not allow Brain in to the next one – he’s only there to stir up trouble! And check for anyone with tattoos, give them the bum’s rush as well!)
And anyway, I have an appointment tomorrow with my tattooist. Peacemaker, you can get Mike’s bobble head tattooed on you!
This is your now-biased assumption and a very rocky “defense” of someone who started waving samurai swords in an obviously life-threatening manner at people sufficient for him to be shot dead. So if he had carved up 3 or 4 people in reception Scientology is to blame eh? The “earlier beginning” (I will assume now and seems to be supported from what is stated), is that the guy was a nut before he approached Scientology and Scientology said “no thanks”. Hence the rampage. As you no doubt can recollect, or ask any Basic Course Supervisor you know, there are always a certain percentage of new people doing basic services like the STCC Course who are – well, nuts, and they are sooner or later, usually sooner, excluded. But to blame Scientology for this is ludicrous.
Foolproof, everything you have said is nothing but your own conjecture. Let’s wait for facts to come out and then see the truth. Let’s not rely on what the church says is true, as in their PR spin on the matter. They have lied enough in the past, and even have TR’s for how not to answer a question, and have references on “shore story” and “acceptable truth” that make what they say suspect, or at least worth verifying. We don’t know that he was a nut case years ago when he got in. We don’t know that he was on psych drugs. Of course the church wants to distance themselves from this guy, so they say they kicked him out before this. They say that about Mike too, that they kicked him out before he blew and that he was a nobody in the church. I’d like to find out what ethics or justice or disconnection this guy had to endure before he went splewie. Janet Reitman had hours of squirrel Sec Checks before she had a breakdown, and it was the nonstandard intimidation and interrogation Sec Checks that finally broke her.
Foolproof,
If Scientology rejects them, why do you (or Hubbard) care if they go see a psychologist???!!!?? If they are “nuts” and Scientology can’t help them (although you seem to believe they can help anyone who is touched by the majesty), do you really want to cut off any aspect of help they can get outside (which could….maybe…. cause them to attack the church…maybe)?
And what were Hubbard’s plans for these “mentally deficient” wogs once the Earth was cleared??? Lock them away in quarantine with the rest of us….that’s a lot of people locked away….or slate them for deletion. If it’s lock them away- where? Who is going to feed them? Pay for their upkeep, etc.
You dodged that question earlier, and I’m sure you will again- because you never gave a thought to what would happen. Wogs and the rest of the planet stand in the way of “clearing” it. That would never change. Not everyone will be clear. What’s the endgame????
Replying to Kat above: So this is a new ploy now, now that the re-defining of the word “wog” by Kat has failed miserably. She hopes now to cast the aspersion and (thus convince (sic)) the audience here that Scientology will be running death camps for those who don’t partake, like her fellow psychologists and psychiatrists did in the Nazi Death Camps.
Well, just to reassure Kat (she’s obviously getting worried) – no, we’ll leave you alone to carry on with your yoga/meditation and Brian-mapping, sorry Brain-Mapping, anti-depressants, ECT etc. Paradise for you eh? Brian-mapping without limit! The joy! Actually we’re not interested.
Cindy, that is more or less what I stated and it wasn’t me who started the conjecture. Well, alright, I threw in a bit of conjecture as well, but then as is my recent oft used phrase, what’s good for the goose and all that…
Foolproof,
Since I asked you this question several times already, and you still have not given me a straight answer, I will assume that you don’t know, or perhaps Hubbard didn’t get to that sicky point in his grab for money.
WHERE are the ‘unclears’ supposed to go- we would be an impediment to clearing the planet. It would be an IMPOSSIBILITY to clear the planet with us hanging around. Logic dictates there is a solution to that issue- or did no one think that far ahead??
As I am NEVER going to join scientology, and Im pretty sure the majority of the planet is in the same mindset as I am, what was Hubbard planning to do with all us SP’s, PTS’s, ‘psychs’, ‘wogs’, mentally ill people, people who had done drugs, people who weren’t acceptable candidates for scientology, people who disagreed with Hubbard’s sermons, etc, etc. Its a pretty big list of people out there that would be hindering this clear planet of Hubbard’s.
I know you think you are carrying on his work, so what does the indie community have to say about us suppressives and non-believers? As this “supposedly” directly affects me and mine, I think I have the right to know the cults plans….if it had one, which I doubt. There is very little logic being used here- logic would dictate that something must be done with the people hindering the cult, so what was it?
If anyone out there has an answer to this question, I would be interested to hear it- especially since foolproof wont answer!
Kat
PS-you haven’t convinced anyone that Wog wasn’t used derogatorily, so Im puzzled as to your comments on how you think you managed to convince yourself you did…
Foolproof, I checked, and Webster’s put the definition of wog in their collegiate and large 2-volume dictionaries beginning in the mid 1930s or earlier, and running through at least the early 1950s, showing its perjorative connotations. Wouldn’t Hubbard have known to use a dictionary, as he advised his students? And here’s another good etymology source for the word:
https://www.etymonline.com/word/wog
On another topic in this thread, since Hubbard wrote about the solution to people deemed to be to incorrigible to be to “dispose of them quietly and without sorrow,” and also admiringly cited the story of the Venezuelan dictator supposedly solving a problem with leprosy by “the simple expedient of collecting and destroying all the beggars,” what else are we to conclude about Hubbard’s approach to dealing with the seriously mentally ill or others considered untreatable? Did he provide any superseding guidance or policy about what Scientology would do with such people, if not resorting to such measures?
FP, where do you get your un-reality-checked notions?
Also, the most recent blade-related death at a Scientology facility, the stabbing in Australia in January, was committed by a 16 year old who was almost certainly, like his mother, a scientologist, and who had no reported psychiatric history, and is very unlikely to have.
Just when was the last killing at a Scientology org, or of a staff member, that wasn’t just madness among scientologists and recipients of auditing, and did actually involve a perpetrator who had received psychological or psychiatric treatment?
Er, AFAIK there have only been 2 such deaths in the complete history of Scientology Orgs – the recent one and now this. No – there was another one about 10 years ago with a guy waving swords (again for some reason). As usual you didn’t grasp what I meant – I am talking generally of such events. Ok now? You can now launch off into a massive search for other such events as is your wont.
My parish church (which is part of a larger church that has been around much longer) has been in existence for more than 100 years.
There has never been one sword attack.
Chee Chalker, Thank you for these stats. 100 years as a church and never one sword attack. Now that is good stats. The church’s stats on this suck.
Yes so has my parish church never been attacked, don’t know about country-wide, maybe? So what you are implying is that christian churches and mosques, temples and synagogues worldwide are never attacked?
And how about the rowdy crowds that gather outside Scientology churches? What’s their beef? Imagine if the same were done to synagogues and mosques!
I hear you, Foolproof.
On the other hand, to quote LRH, how did Inglewood Org “pull this in”?
Not to go all 1970s on you with “Karma” et al, but here’s a theory:
Inglewood Org is the favorite stomping grounds of the NOI Freedom Medal Winner Tony Mohammed, aka Tony Mo. The Tony Mo of “The Jews control everything and are the cause of all the immorality and suffering in the world” fame. (I’m paraphrasing but that’s the gist.) Tony Mo and his virulent anti-Semitism.
Now, he doesn’t say THAT stuff at Scientology events, but he sure preaches Jew hatred at strictly NOI events.
Miscavige HONORED Tony Mohammed with Scientology’s highest, most prestigious award. The Church of Scientology VENERATES him.
And the estimable Reverend Mohammed hangs out quite a bit at Inglewood Org. They’ve certainly embraced him. He’s a popular speaker at their events.
So what do you think, Foolproof?
Based on Scientology Ethics Tech and Level II Overt/Withold Tech, the HCOBs on pulling in motivators and so forth – based on your extensive (far more than mine I’m sure) knowledge of the above, does the Church of Scientology Inglewood have “an ethics blindspot”?
I’m sincerely interested in your take on this from a Scientological perspective.
Did Inglewood Org “pull in” this horrific tragedy?
And this is not a trick question, nor am I being sarcastic. I’m sincere in asking and will read what you say with interest if you respond in a sincere manner.
Well, alright, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander: you can just as easily say how come all the dudes and gals posting here claim to be victims of oppression? And AFAIK, nothing has happened to Inglewood Org – the dude got shot, not the Org. The answer to your question BTW is in the tape “The Overt Motivator Sequence”, but you will be surprised – it is not what you may think.
Why is it that if someone else had posted my comment no one would say a word or there would be far less? It’s almost er, reactive?
Your a fucking fool fool proof not. Just go to hell. I am so sick of you. I used to get a laugh from your stupidity. Not anymore, it’s just old . You’re a fucking nut. Leave please and don’t come back.
Gary Webb, I would vote up your comment, but I don’t have a vote up icon on my computer for it. But I second your motion to Fool Proof. Maybe we should all just petition Mike to have him kick FP off the site and ban him from posting.
FP is a valuable contributor here. He provides real time insight into what it is like to be a die-hard Hubbard believer. That is invaluable, especially for those who have never been in.
His vitriol is part and parcel of being a good scientologist. It is hammered into you that you are superior to the “wogs” and “humanoids” on earth and that you have all the answers to everything as long as you “do what Ron says.” It’s sometimes hard for those who have never been caught inside the bubble to understand just how one’s thinking can be influenced. He is a live-action clay demo.
I generally don’t ban people unless their comments are entirely personal attacks.
His include plenty of personal insults, but they also contain his efforts to justify and explain Hubbard tech. There’s nobody else trying to fight that fight. He is a Japanese soldier still fighting WW II and it’s invaluable to have him around for the lessons he provides.
Cindy,
I am getting really good insight into how the people indoctrinated in this cult behave as well as what their core belief systems are from foolproof. While he may be annoying at times, his circular arguments, his dodging and weaving to avoid directly answering specific questions as well as his overall viewpoints are important. As a never in, its interesting to see the way his brain deflects direct evidence of the invalidity of his belief system. The fact that he unerringly attacks is the way he was taught to ‘argue’ points. Its completely ineffective, but its still educational! As far as his personal attacks go, its simple to ignore- I generally get a pretty good laugh out of it too.
Kat
Apart from making admittedly silly nicknames for people, what are these personal insults that I engage in? The only one who is really insulted here and constantly is little ol’ me, not that I really mind of course, it goes with the territory so to speak.
As to “vitriol”, your whole web site or more precisely the comments section, is dedicated to such. I simply respond to some of the more outlandish and hyperbolic nonsense posted here.
As to your trying to associate or juxtapose inhumanity and uncaring to me by your assumption of what YOU think I take “wog” and “humanoid” to mean – as I said I and my peers when I was in the Church on staff and now my friends who are also Scientologists never thought in the extreme manner which you are assigning to me. I realize you were pissed off when I debunked Kat’s attempts to re-define “wog” but then you couldn’t leave it at that as the truth of the matter, and had to make out it was actually far worse than the original (untrue) idea.
Don’t think I don’t notice how you bend my statements to suit your agenda but I think it is a shame that you do so – even mild-mannered Cindy is now attacking me because of your clever insertion of “That’s a terrible stat!” above, implying that I find it inconsequential and trivial, which I don’t. And then you disallow my first response to this pointing this out.
And as for “I generally don’t ban people unless their comments are entirely personal attacks” – Wynski constantly and 1 or 2 others occasionally, are engaged in the most foul insulting one could possibly imagine, and are allowed to run amok with verbal samurai swords here.
Anyway, I have a large work project coming up so I won’t be spending too much time here now anyway, so you can all bitch and misconstrue to your heart’s content without fear of being gainsayed.
You will be missed
So when I have an answer for stuff that’s posted such must be disallowed so you can all carry on bitching eh? Yes, so, (not) sorry to spoil your little games here. And you would like to decide now who posts here eh?
The only “fucking nuts” as you say are some of the people who post here. Go to hell yourself!
FP is actually an intelligent person, though Hubbard has robbed him of a few IQ points, methinks, in trade for a thousand-yard-stare on command, and the inability to comprehend that much, even most of the criticism aimed at Scientology is well-earned, both of the current COS of the non-Scientologist COB, the hippies who sailed on the Apollo, et. al., and the historical faddish followers of DTMSMH.
If he spent any significant time, say, in the Sea Org, or some years on the RPF, or the RPF’s RPF, or as a six year old locked in a chain locker at Hubbard’s command, or as an underfed and overworked child laborer, or a molested child, or an abandoned child, or a teen refused a decent education, all within the bounds of Scientology, he would know one thing for sure: He already had been in Hell.
No one has the right to wish more Hell on anyone who truly suffered in Scientology.
If FP didn’t suffer in Scientology, if his reading and following Dear Leader Hubbard was all sweet and light and fabulous spiritual progress, he, like so many others, simply failed to pierce the vale of untruth which Hubbard so loved to weave around himself. At no time in his life did Hubbard make a habit of telling the truth, and that lack of Truth in its many forms, permeates all of Dianetics and Scientology.
If FP stirs up strong emotions on this or any blog, it is a Good Thing. Emotions, perhaps a fiery feeling of wrongs done and a need to correct, are abilities Hubbard tried to drill out of his minions, or channel to his service, in addition to creating subservience to him as Source. Nothing wrong with Emotions, if kept civilized, not matter who lights the fuse.
It is too bad there were comic movies about “Minions”, because the word minion, like sycophant, apple-polisher, bootlicker, brownnoser, fawner, flunky, lickspittle, suck-up, and toady, are all accurate words to use when describing the actual end-product of the type of people with which Hubbard desired to surround himself.
BTW, FP, if you have condescended to read this far, may I suggest the series of books by Neal Stephenson called ‘the Baroque Cycle’, which start about 1660 and go on into the Enlightenment to about the death of Louis XIV in 1715. It is a wonderfully informative and entertaining historical fiction, with all the big players – Isaac Newton, Gottfried Leibniz, the Winter Queen’s many offspring, Louis XIV, and others. I feel sure you would enjoy these books immensely, and if given a destination I will gladly send you copies free of charge. It might even get your mind off Hubbard for awhile.
FOOLproof said:”And AFAIK, nothing has happened to Inglewood Org – the dude got shot, not the Org.”
You missed the juicy part: The guy ATTACKED Inglewood org with a sword and was shot dead by the police for his effort. I repeat others’ question:”What did scientology — specifically Inglewood Org— DO to pull in that attack?
FP, the Inglewood Org was the target of the attacker, and he initially confronted org staff – do I really need to point out the obvious to you? Scientology obviously couldn’t handle the situation, and had to resort to calling for help from outsiders, who used “wog” law enforcement tech to resolve the danger, and saved the org and its staff from harm that would have otherwise occurred.
There are many long-established individual psychiatric facilities that are as large as, and have as many people come through their doors as, all of Scientology worldwide. None of them have had “4 or 5” violent or fatal attacks from outside in their history. Scientology, with the miniscule and dwindling number of people it actually deals with or attempts to treat, proportionately pulls in much more crazy.
This is a classic example of bending facts to suit one’s agenda. So should Scientology now have a municipal works section to pipe its water in to the Org? How about trash collection?
And yes, you are probably correct that psychiatric facilities aren’t attacked from without – as the attacks (on the patients) are all done in-house and then they are released in various states to attack the rest of the population!
Peacemaker,
I’m conjuring/conjecturing/hyphothicating that the poor Bentley-driving sword-wielding male was simply trying to come in and get some services at THE-ONLY-PLACE-IN-THE-WORLD-TO-HANDLE-THE-INSANITY-OF-HUMANKIND-THANKS TO-RON-HUBBARD-THE-ONLY-BEING-BIG-ENOUGH-TO-CONFRONT-AND-SHATTER-THE-BANK! HIP HIP HOORAY.
If only they had had a class 2 auditor available to give the swordster a session, and run out his O/Ws (and maybe an ARC break or two) then all would have been well, the psychs would have gone out of business, and the UN would have made Scientology the official world therapy.
A happy ending and another Scientology WIN !…… If only…..
Fool,
Im posting here and am not a victim of oppression. You may want to watch those sweeping generalizations you are so fond of…
MY sweeping generalities? I spend most of my time here tackling others’ sweeping generalities. And, if you carefully read my statement above where I mentioned this, I did not actually say that, but then I don’t want to prevent you using a sweeping generality – this time anyway.
@ Foolproof,
Thank you for your honest response to what I posted. I do agree that “what’s good for the goose is good for the gander”.
I do agree that each of us is responsible in some degree for our own condition and for the conditions of others. Not WHOLLY responsible but, each of us, to some degree, partially responsible. When I have an upset, I do find it beneficial in feeling relief from it to look at what I might have done or said that contributed to whatever the problem is with others, and I do find that taking a look at my own behavior and speech in this way leads to a workable handling for the problem as well as relief from any angry, sad or fearful feelings.
Now, having said that, I’ll share that what bothers me about Co$ is that the cherch NEVER takes responsibility for an “ARC-Broken field”. Its NEVER the cherch’s out-tech, off-policy, out-ethics or out-admin. The Church of Scientology is ALWAYS in the right. They’re ALWAYS the victim.
Actually, I just said that a little bit wrong: there IS a way that Co$ “takes responsibility” for “pulling in” suppression. They’ll say, “Its because we are WINNING so much. There’s so much EXPANSION going on, and the SPs can’t stand it, they’re howling! The SPs can’t stand how much help we’re giving everyone! That’s why we’re being attacked!”
Now, THIS…is bullshit.
They’re not expanding at all. They’re shrinking. This is a huge lie.
The organization that is the Church of Scientology is not taking responsibility for the deplorable condition that it is actually in, not taking any REAL responsibility for why it is being attacked, while at the same time, it keeps right on insisting that every one else do so!
To sum up, what’s good for the goose is NOT good for the gander in Miscavige’s church.
THIS is what bothers me, Foolproof. I resent it. I’m sure it bothers other former-ins on this blog and elsewhere, and it should bother you too.
You are probably correct on most of the above Aqua. As I have stated often, were this blog to concentrate on the things that the Church is doing wrongly in my opinion such as the IAS and Ideal Org donations stuff, unnecessary heavy ethics and much of the other stuff that Indies don’t like, then I wouldn’t post here. Such (admin reasons) IMO is also “interfering with students” straight out of HCOB “Recovering Students and PCs” but there is also no doubt out-tech playing a role as well. I know this to be the case as I know and talk with top Indie auditors in the field.
But it is when it gets into hyperbole or I can see an obvious falsehood, then I will venture my opinion. There are still however detractors, some who have had nothing to do personally with Scientology, who just want to destroy the subject for whatever reason they have to do so, and who twist and create scenarios and I will always butt in there. So I am quite aware of the distinction in this area of those who have had case problems (usually not enough auditing actually) and those who just want to do the subject in.
Foolproof, thank you. I do understand and fully agree that there is Out Tech, and then there is just the desire to destroy.
As to the latter group, all I can say is try looking from THEIR viewpoint.
Imagine for a minute that you are someone who knows NOTHING about the Church of Scientology EXCEPT that it 1) mandates the splitting up of families in instances of dissent, 2) without conscience bleeds their parishioners financially, frequently into bankruptcy via scams that help no-one except Miscavige, and 3) have written into its church SCRIPTURE that anyone speaking out publicly against the church (no matter how truthful the complaints) is a Suppressive Person and as such Fair Game to be ruined.
I ask you: if THE above were ALL you knew about the ORGANIZATION that is the Church of Scientology, would it not color, somewhat, your view of the SUBJECT of Scientology? Aknd not in a good way? Might you too want to destroy it, just stamp out the whole damned thing?
Let me put it another way:
If ALL you knew about Christianity were 1) The Crusades, and, 2) The Spanish Inquisition – if these were ALL you knew about the organization that is the Holy Church of Rome, would it be likely that you would have a HORRIBLE opinion of the PHILOSOPHY, the SCRIPTURE of RC as well? Sure you wouldn’t KNOW about all the goodness, the kindness, etc. that’s in RCs scripture, but then, think about it, why would you even WANT to know? I’d say you’d be so APPALLED at knowing about the Crusades and the Inqqisition that you’d reject EVERYTHING out of hand . I’d guess (guess now 🙂 ) that you’d think, “Any organization that could perpetrate these atrocities, such injustices, that could do such evil acts, that could cause such widespread suffering, etc., could never have anything good to teach me…” Do you see?
I’m sure you do, actually.
Also, aside from the Never Ins, there are Former Ins reading and posting here IN PAIN.
They are IN PAIN, Foolproof.
Just look at it from that viewpoint.
But then – wait…wait – if you do that, then we here won’t be able to spar with you anymore.
And that’s kind of fun. I’ll admit that.
So, yeah, never mind 🙂
Aqua,
I sure as hell bothers me and I’m a never in. I hate the way this organization constantly plays victim and always blames others. It’s abhorrant. Strong people take responsibility for their actions. This blame game is revolting.
Its great that you care, Kat. Have to say, with “no dog in this race”, its great that you care.
I’m like you; I hate injustice, when I observe it.
Co$ didn’t do anything to me, really.
Oh, they got a fair amount of money out of me that they shouldn’t have for their Ideal M’org and IAS scams. But I was not otherwise hurt. BUT – that’s ONLY because the cherch had NO leverage on me.
No one I loved was ever in, and my business never depended upon the patronage of other Scientologists. No leverage.
They COULDN’T do anything to me. So the way I look at things is that, look at all the damage they did to others on whom there WAS leverage.
These people DID have loved ones in. These people DID have incomes that depended upon other Scientologists. And the cherch dealt with THEM unfairly, selfishly, CRUELLY.
Bottom line is, I could have been any one of the former ins here, suffering from the toxic policies of Disconnection
and Fair Game.
That’s why I’m in solidarity with the former ins here.
And, again, its great that Never Ins like you are outraged about it too. Thank you!
FOOLproof said:”One thing that can usually be relied on in these cases – the person involved was receiving psychological or psychiatric “treatment”. Perhaps the poor fellow was getting his brain “mapped”? Let’s wait and see before making political hay eh!”
BINGO! scientology is SO predictable that I wouldn’t bet against your first impression, as you seem to be doing with the “political hey [hay] comment.
Well, she started it! And hey – it’s “hay” not “hey”! as in “making hay”. I wasn’t going to say a word until the daft suppositions started rolling in.
And yes, Hubbard’s data is actually quite predictable because it is true.
It must be true, because Hubbard gathered his knowledge by looking out a porthole onto the deck, where his minions were busily chipping paint, or by watching the detritus of whatever port the Apollo had not yet been banned from, more likely, watching his fingers fly across his manual typewriter, smashing out his writs with obsessive-compulsive confidence, and never far from his favorite drugs and alcohol. To paraphrase Truman Capote, “That’s not research, that’s the fevered blather of an overactive imagination!”
Haha! AA or rather “A=A=A” (thanks Kat) is throwing another of his 2 cents opinions into the swirling pot again! Nope, Hubbard simply observed what happened with the PCs (“patient” if you like) and took it from there. Pity that other “therapies” don’t do the same. But then Hubbard wasn’t basing his premises on brain-mapping, sorry, Brian-mapping!
Jere, Your first line where you quote Fool Proof’s generalization is exactly that: a sweeping generalization and so far there is absolutely no evidence to uphold that this is generalization applies to the the recent sword wielder.
Foolproof,
It is more likely that he wasn’t getting any help at all, and that is why he went off the deep end.
Thank you!
“House of worship” is an accurate description, considering that money is the only thing worshipped.
From all data available it sounds like one or both cops shot each other. Not uncommon in large city PDs where most cops have never touched a gun until they train to become a LEO. FAR too late to learn to use one under pressure unless you take YEARS of combat practice.
Why weren’t tasers used? Deadly force may not have been necessary.
Learning the hard way about firearms is tragedy in itself. Wearing a uniform, classroom study and saying “yes sir” is not, I repeat, is not, all there is to training to handle a real situation of when & why a gun is drawn. Wynski is right. The place to learn is NOT under pressure with live ammunition – death is only 4 ozs of finger pressure away. Anxiety, extreme fear & split second responses even give well trained veterans the horrors. Tragedy and sorrow can be created so unbelievably quickly when weapons are presented. There is nothing as lonely as resorting to using firearms, you cannot undue firing them.
4.5 to 6 pound trigger pulls are average for most pistols, with some departments using 10 to 12 lb.
Ah yes, pounds, not ounces, tku. Been soooo long since I’ve carried a weapon, let alone used one. My bad, but I don’t much care anymore about such things, I’m old – cheers.
Iyawnalot:
“Learning the hard way about firearms is tragedy in itself. Wearing a uniform, classroom study and saying “yes sir” is not, I repeat, is not, all there is to training to handle a real situation of when & why a gun is drawn. ”
It’s times like this that I bless my lucky stars that my parents chose this neighborhood to settle. Around here, it was BIG NEWS when a local cop discharged his weapon in the line of duty for the first time in decades. A few years earlier, the local department didn’t even try to intimidate a guy holed up with a gun. Instead, they figured out how to turn his heat off, whereupon he exited his bunker or froze. Part of their calculation was that the guy had TAUGHT much of the local departments advanced firearms (however it’s titled) and that he was a better shot, and probably better armed, than they were. Still, they were smart and wouldn’t be likely to shoot each other.
This world is an entirely different place than what I experienced as a young man and my experience was completely different than that of my father and his experience was very different from that of his father. Yes, recognizing your lucky stars to be away from such social insanity is something to be valued. I like where I live now too.
Police are taught that anyone within fifteen feet is a deadly threat, because before you can pull the weapon and fire they can take three or four big steps and stab you in the eye with their 10kt gold-plated Parker pen. That’s why you see an incident like four police Tasering an old lady when she got within the five yard limit. She was a non-english speaking 85 year old female, weight 85 pounds, holding flowers in one hand and the flimsy little steak knife she used to chop them in the other, tottering toward them with an apologetic smile because she knew cops were her friend, and she was hard of hearing. Zap! Taser square in the chest. Ask any one of them and they would say they feared for their life; as they had been taught to fear, so did they fear.
New York at one time mandated a heavier-than-normal 10 pound trigger pull, trying to reduce the incidents of shoot first and let the coroner figure it out later. Very few peopled act properly when they draw a firearm; as a firearms trainer I can attest to that 100%, even if the firearm is just at a target range.
It is interesting that the holy NRA is not spending their hard-scammed funds trying to change the California gun laws that so many wild-westers complain about.
Zee Moo, tasers often enough don’t work well on people hopped up on certain drugs. If I was a cop I wouldn’t gamble that with my own life. You come at me with a lethal weapon and I will use lethal force to defend with.
Feel free to gamble with YOUR life of course. Somehow I doubt that if you were REALLY in a similar situation that you would choose a possibly non-working defense over a certain defense against getting your head removed. 😉
Yes, there are limitations to tasers, as evidenced at least as far back as the Rodney King case.
However, I think there’s also ample evidence, and even acknowledgement, that law enforcement has swung too far in the direction of shooting first and asking questions later, and that they need to trained better in how to de-escalate situations and handle them with less force, perhaps aided by some better technology. They’re acting much more like they’re manning checkpoints in hostile territory – which in the case of those with military backgrounds, is literally what their training and neurology has been attuned to. In the old days, what were called peace officers realized that they were accepting some professional risk in trying to keep the peace and calm violent situations, including possibly getting hurt. And there are quite a few mundane construction and maintenance professions that are still more dangerous than law enforcement.
I’ve known quite a few LEOs personally, and was actually still in the military reserves (including serving as a range safety officer responsible for overseeing weapons, explosives and riot training) and working with some military police units that included some “weekend warrior” LEOs, at the time that our police forces started to become increasingly militarized, including transfers of battlefield-type equipment. That drift has long concerned me, as much as I know how the men and women feel about the risks every time they go out on a shift.
NO doubt about that PeaceMaker. I can cite HUNDREDS of videos just from the last 12 months showing that cops are completely out of control in this country.
Most aren’t trained enough to be able to carry and use deadly force.
You are 100% right, Wynski. This guy had a sword. A sword is a sharp, powerful, lethal, long KNIFE. A sword can do a LOT of damage. You can easily slice someone’s head or arms or legs or any body part off with it.
Now, you know me for the Liberal Lefty that I am 🙂 and that I’m not “one of those 2nd Amendment people” 🙂 but I’ll tell you, if someone came at me waiving a sword around, and I had a gun on me, and knew how to shoot it, I’d blow his fucking head off without thinking twice.
Aquamarine:
“but I’ll tell you, if someone came at me waiving a sword around, and I had a gun on me, and knew how to shoot it, I’d blow his fucking head off without thinking twice.”
You and I might SAY that, never having been in that situation, but IRL, I doubt the inexperienced slob known as Jere COULD follow through on that threat. I’m sure *I* would hesitate, as I would do for any living creature. In lesser situations, I didn’t follow through on my threatened behavior, not even calling my old miserable boss and telling him what a SOB he had been. (He was a definite contender for “World’s worst boss”; Examples of his ineptitude are legion.)
Jere,
I hear you. Each person’s life experience is different.
I don’t own a gun.
I don’t know how to shoot a gun. I don’t want to learn how, and I don’t want to own one.
I have been attacked.
Not raped, not robbed. It was a random attack with a broken bottle, in a park full of people, in broad daylight.
Just a homeless, crazy person.
He didn’t know me, I didn’t know him.
There was no motive for him to start stabbing at me.
.
He was just crazy. Delusional, off his meds, whatever.
It all worked out ok.
People helped me, subdued him police came, took him away, he went to jail, or into a a mental home or someplace.
I got 40 stitches in my right hand from a good looking emergency room doctor. We dated for about 6 months afterward 🙂
My hand healed and is normal.And I’m fine. Life is good.
I was lucky – lucky he was subdued by others, because at the time I couldn’t do anything except stand there, rooted to the spot. I couldn’t run away. I could only stand there, in shock, not believing what was actually happening.
So, yes, I was very, very lucky that, NO THANKS TO ME, it all worked out.
My life was not ruined. I’m not afraid. I go wherever I want, I do whatever I want. I could never live in a hiding, scared kind of way. Living that way would be like living death to me. Its not my nature. I’ve always had more guts than brains 🙂
BUT!
And now to the point 🙂
To this day, if, suddenly, someone, somewhere, unexpectedly comes right up behind me, behind my right shoulder, if, all of a sudden, for any innocent reason there’s someone unexpectedly right behind me,…a thrill of fear goes thru me. It has to be sudden, and unexpected..all of a sudden there’s someone right in back of me, and there’s breath on my right shoulder…whoa!
I’ve had innocent strangers apologize to me because I gasped. I’ve had to tell them “Its OK! No worries! I’m fine,its just me, I’m a million miles away, that’s all!”
Long and boring story short, Jere, BELIEVE me when I tell you that if ever some lunatic, unprovoked, came AT me, waiving a sword AT me, and I had a gun, and knew how to shoot that gun, I would ABSOLUTELY shoot that lunatic, and I’d aim for his head – yes. indeed, I would kill him before he could kill or maim me. This I know beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Boring story? No way! I found it fascinating. At last something truly interesting! Sorry for you about the attack.
There’s already an “Annie Oakley” (“get your gun” for those who don’t know what I am talking about) posting here so may I call you now (deferentially and laudatory, not critically) “2 Gun Tex” or how about “Dirty Harry Aqua”? “Aqua The Kid”? “Machine Gun Aqua”? “Aqua-Marine” but that is too obvious and thus silly.
Talking of sneaky – watch out for Brain and Peacemaker (just realized the Colt connection here – ha!) – they have a tendency to sneak little stories up behind you! So when you are reading their “stories”, always sit with your back to the saloon bar wall! But if Wynski walks into the saloon, shoot him on sight – figuratively that is! Jesuit George wears a Lucifer suit so he’s easy to spot.
@ FP,
I’m glad I managed to write something that interested you 🙂 I consider that no small feat 🙂
Thanks for your suggestions. I actually like “Aqua-Marine” the best. Written this way communicates a concept that, applied to me is a funny pun.
I thought of one too: “Full Metal Aqua”.
Then of course, huge Eastwood fan that I am…yes, just put Sword Wielder right in front of me…I’m into this now. “Go ahead. Make my day” Or, even better: “So – I hafta ask ‘ya – do ‘ya feel lucky? Well – do ‘ya punk?”
Aqua, that is why as a feminist I want all women who desire it to be trained with firearms and be able to carry one. Men can all too easily overpower women which is why there is at least about 100,000 rapes per year in the USA.
Wynski, darling, I hear you. I hear you. I get it. I do. And, well, you’re just gonna hate this, and I have no doubt that it going to go down like total airy fairy uber nonsense to you, but…deep breath…here’s what I really believe, in my heart…
Couldn’t there be a way for the overwhelming majority of SANE people to co- exist without guns?
“Can’t we all just get along?”
-Rodney King.
(See, I told you you were going to hate it :))
Seriously, I just posted a response to Jere about a crime victim experience of mine. I KNOW there are nut jobs out there – I have personal experience with this – and guns ARE needed to subdue these people so that we are protected from the harm that they’ll do.
So, I’m not anti -gun. I get it. But, I still disapprove of them, in my heart.
What IS my point, anyway? I don’t even know anymore. My feelings and convictions are SO mixed on this subject that I’m going to stop now before I become even more unclear.
One day I’ll get myself sorted out on the subject of guns.
Its possible there’s non-confront on my part when it comes to guns.
“Couldn’t there be a way for the overwhelming majority of SANE people to co- exist without guns?”
That situation already exists. The vast majority DO interact without guns.
It is a breach of basic human rights to deny humans the ability to defend themselves from threats against life and property.
[Example] If I were a bad guy I could easily end your life without any weapons than my hands and feet. It would take me all of 10 seconds.
Denying you the tools to be able to have a chance of defending your life IS a human rights violation.
YOU do have the right to choose the chance of death over life (by choosing to not have a weapon) but you don’t have the right to make that choice for another.
Also, the US murder rate has fallen over the past 3 decades as gun ownership has steadily risen. Therefore, factually murder rate and gun ownership have ZERO linkage in the USA.
So denying peoples human rights will not reduce murders. It only makes some feel emotionally better.
A hidden secret: In areas of the USA (that allows people to carry guns without restrictions) and has demographics that are the same as in most of North & Western EU the murder rates are similar to those EU places…
Your heart is in the right place, as usual Aqua, but you lack the data because it is not taught. For good reason when looking at the motives off those not reporting on it.
I get it. You’re right on everything, Wynski. I’m not just saying that. You’re right. And reading your response made me see that it all boils down – for me, anyway – it all boils down not to gun ownership per se, but to keeping them out of the hands of the mentally insane who randomly act out and slaughter innocent people – SOMEHOW keep guns (and ideally all lethal weapons but that’s a stretch) out of such individuals hands ,without infringing at all on the rights of the SANE people to own guns. But HOW to do that is another issue. I cheated in responding to you here by replying to my own post, and Mike is not going to further allow you to respond either because its off thread Just so you know, that is my issue, my only issue, with guns and their ownership and I’d like to think its every sane person’s real issue with guns.
A Japanese sword of any length is a fearsome and deadly weapon, and even I would shoot first, from a distance, if the distance between the sword-wielder and another person dictated such action. That’s saying a lot, because I wish to leave this life having saved a few, and taken none. I’ve achieved the first part, and try to never be in situations where the second needs happen.
I read about this story last night and my first reaction was to come right here and tell you all about it.
But then I asked myself, “What exactly should I post?” It didn’t take me long to figure out I really had no business posting anything because I hardly understand most things about this cult and usually, the best I can do is to stand near the outside edge and try to poke fun at it and its leaders. It is my opinion the best way to knock a cult is to get people to laugh at it. Mel Brooks has produced some wonderful films that poke fun at the Nazis and I know no better way to bring down some cult besides getting people to laugh at it.
The result last night was that I just went to sleep and trusted Mike to manage his own blog just fine without any help from me and I am left to apologize to everyone here who I surely must annoy when I make posts that sound like they were written by some “know-it-all” (like my post about the “drop wallet”). Lately, when I get the urge to do that sort of thing, I count it as a victory every time I conclude it would be better if I just left the reporting of events like these to the people best qualified – which means most anyone besides me.
So, what to do? The truth is I suppose I just have to force myself to post less.
At any rate, I to everyone here who I have bored and/or annoyed by posting too much and too often. I truly regret doing that . I really do and starting now, I will make a conscious effort to curtail this bad habit. Unfortunately, I fear I’ve just done this once more with this here very post.
Please note that when I complain about people like myself who post too much too often, there are indeed a few people here who post an awful lot, but, IMO, almost all of them have interesting and important things to say and I do not believe any of them are wasting anybody else’s time. The only person here that I can point the finger at is myself.
But … he was driving a Bentley?
Skyler I enjoy your posts! In trying to understand the complex subject that is scientology we all have thoughts we maybe should not have posted. Lol. I will say I feel safe here to say whatever I’m thinking. Some nice soul will help me understand if I’m way off. Post away in my opinion. ☺
Skyler, I also like your posts and it appears a number of others on this blog appreciate them as well.
“Sooooo….”, (imitating my favorite Sea Org hag of yore), “sooooooooo…, what’s ACTUALLY needed and wanted is that you TOTALLY knock off the self-inval!”
That’s Scientologese, Skyler.
Cult-Speak for, “Don’t put yourself down, you’re fine just as you are.” 🙂
Thank you so much Aqua. I always knew that you were fine the way you were too.
In fact, I’ve always suspected that you were better than fine – and I’m referring to your mind here. You are definitely one of my very most favorite people here. As a matter of fact, most all the people here are definitely my most favorite people here or anywhere else. I hope you won’t take that as false flattery or just plain loneliness. But, this blog is truly wonderful in the way that everyone here appears to be committed to a great cause – namely putting an end to this monstrous and murderous cult and it feels so good to feel like people here are welcoming to others.
I just hope that I have not hurt anyone’s feelings by failing to mention them. So many people have recently tried to help me. I want you all to know just how very much that means to me. It does. It really does.
You’re welcome, Skyler. So you love me for my mind, eh? That’s what all the guys say …Just kidding.
You’re in the right place, Skyler. Glad you like being here.
And fyi, we’re lucky to have YOU.
A Never In, concerned, participating, contributing – WE are lucky to have YOU.
Seriously!
I actually liked reading what you wrote about traveling with a drop wallet and will adopt that on my next vacation. Thanks for all your posts, Skyler.
Skyler,
Thank you for not sounding like a scientologist. The fact that you are self-aware enough to understand that sometimes you make a fool of yourself (like we all do) makes you a real human and a person we can appreciate.
There are moments when your newfound passion for the subject you have just discovered gets a tad bit annoying to me but then I’m an old lady and have been out of scientology for probably more years than you’ve been alive so I take a breath and realize that it’s fresh blood like yours that makes people keep working to shut down abuses. Don’t let anyone take that passion away from you.
Ann, Cindy and Valerie,
Thank you all so much for your kind words. I really didn’t expect a reaction like that. You have no idea how much I appreciate that. But I will still make a concerted effort to post a lot less in the future than I have been posting.
I find your posts about posting annoying posts annoying! ???
Your other posts are fine! Post away.
LOL ?
Kim & Cece,
I want you both to know that I feel a very strong bond with both of you. The only reason I feel that I need to say that is because almost every single person here seems strongly dedicated to the eradication of this monstrous and murderous cult. I feel that it’s OK to use the adjectives “monstrous” and “murderous” because of the death of Lisa McPherson. I hope I spelled her name correctly.
I feel a very strong bond with everyone here. I believe we all want the same thing here and we all are working for that goal together.
Skyler,
Don’t stop posting! I thoroughly enjoy reading your point of view. Besides, I can paint myself with the same brush- I post waaaaay too much, so I need someone to balance me out!
Kat
Agreed! It’s what I’ve been saying all along! (Your last sentence that is – haha!)
I don’t get all this stuff about driving a Bentley. Does that mean the type of car you get out of defines your sanity level?
No, of course not, Yawn. There’s no such significance. Its just one of the facts. He drove up in a car. It was a Bentley. It could just as well have been a Chevy, a Ford or a Toyota.
Yawn, Bentleys are expensive cars along the lines of Mercedes and Jag. So I guess people are surprised that an unhinged would-be murderer would drive an expensive car. It doesn’t it the profile.
Everyone’s opinion matters Skyler. We have each other to vent to, and joke with. Some people don’t have anyone who will listen. I for one am thankful for everyone here. I would like to think this man could have used a solid support group.
Well Skyler, you haven’t really irked me – yet – so that’s always a good sign! But it’s nice to get someone a bit more humble than the usual rabid rabble, hyperbolic hoi polloi and ranting riff-raff here! Not that I want to offend anyone that is – LOL!
You are handing out complements for humility? That’s a bit rich wouldn’t you say?
Absolutely – it’s such a rare thing here!
Foolproof,
You crack me up.
I’m not Jewish but in my area there are many Jewish-Americans.
How you interact on this blog – in the colorful Yiddish my neighbors employ every so often, you’d be called a “pot stirrer” 🙂
Haha! Yes I can see how you would see that, but I think the contents of this pot is already revolving like those G-tests they do for astronauts or better still a spin dryer! Actually I am trying to slow the pot down, not often successfully but then…
Ah HA! I see! In truth you’re just trying to calm us a down! To attempt, valiantly, and, alas, in vain, to throw some oil on the waters being continually roiled by unenlightened us! I get it! Oh -and that the cumulative blood pressure here goes up 4 points when you post is – an apparency!
Its NOT really happening! What’s ACTUALLY occurring is, blood pressure is ALREADY dangerously high, and YOU come around to help lower it. Our very own Indies Prince Valiant! So brave, maligned, misunderstood! How sad this is. Be assured that an amends project is underway, PV.
OK, I’ll stop now 🙂
Skyler I love your posts, each person brings their own uniqueness to the blog
Skyler:
“But then I asked myself, “What exactly should I post?” It didn’t take me long to figure out I really had no business posting anything because I hardly understand most things about this cult and usually, the best I can do is to stand near the outside edge and try to poke fun at it and its leaders.”
Don’t be shy. Even we who were in the cult’s trap for some time don’t have any more info than you. A weird guy acting strange entered a cathedral for such beings, threatened police officers with drawn weapons with a lethal weapon, and was shot and killed. That’s sad, particularly for the police officers who will forever live with that memory, and the evil corporation representing itself as a church (falsely, IMO) will have yet another example of their martyrdom to bolster their false narratives. That no scientologist was injured evidently is a plus to their stories. Only due to the scientologists’ blameless ethical standing was no one important injured. (The crazy man’s death is of no concern. The cops’ flesh wounds were pulled in by their unethical ways of life since they obviously shot each other.)
Skyler, IMO you do what you want. Leave it up to others to get used to you or pass by.
We each can easily control our own responses. It’s a hellofallot harder to attempt to control another’s. I’d rather be left alone to change myself but I have learned from others when their actions have forced me to change me – my response. Anyway TLTR so what. I love reading your posts ?
You ain’t broken, and you don’t need fixin’.
I have speaked.
Fred, Jere, Cece and Ammo, thank you all for your kind words. I hope you know how much they mean to me. They mean a lot. Honest!
Karin Pouw’s response in part: “These officers are doing a heroic job protecting the community and keeping our houses of worship safe against hate crimes.” This is its mantra. And anyone who speaks out about what the church does to break up families or destroy lives or incomes is a “religious bigot.”
And define “house of worship.” I was in scientology a long time and never did see one or hear of one or hear of anyone asking directions to one its “houses of worship.”
And as far as I’m concerned, losing my son to disconnection is a “hate crime” enforced by the church of scientology. Telling the truth about it on Leah’s “Aftermath” is not.
Mary, the use of the term “house of worship” just made my skin crawl. I keep you and your son in my thoughts. I know you and Mike and so many others harmed by this despicable cult and their bogus claims that they don’t advocate or force disconnection will never give up hoping to be reunited with those they love.
✨?✨
Mary, if you can suggest a way that people can help you in your fight, either by writing letters or signing a petition or any other way you can suggest, please tell us what to do and how to do it and I will be happy to do anything I can that is within my power and I bet a great many other people will do likewise. I think there is a real good chance that you would be overwhelmed by the number of people who would love to help you. If I can, I would love to help in your fight, Mary. Very much.
I know that making donations to The Aftermath Foundation is one good way to help you although it seems as if that money will go to help people in a way this is not immediately supporting you and your family. But if you can tell us any specific letters to write and give us the address where we should send those letters, I would love to help you by writing letters. One thing I’ve often heard said is that the old-fashioned type of letters are much better to send than email because it’s very difficult to make those kinds of letters disappear. They have to be filed somewhere and they occupy space in someone’s office – like a Governor of a State or in the Office of the President of the United States.
Just say the word Mary. Please?
Thank you so much for your strong support. Your frustration is palpable and aligns with my extreme angst when it comes to the criminal organization called the church of scientology.
I can only say that besides donating to the Aftermath Foundation, writing the IRS office in Dallas, your State’s senators and representatives might be helpful. Sincere, thoughtful and fact-filled letters might even help to the extent someone in Justice does something about it. I’m not at home at the moment and don’t have access to these addresses but I think they all can be google searched. I don’t know if it helps but writing even your State’s Attorney General or the US Attorney General. Who knows what it will take for something to eventually stick.
I live in Canada Mary and so I will have to write to your State’s Senator. Please think about whether it would be better for a number of people to all write letters that have different thoughts and different points of view or whether it might be better to have several people contribute their thoughts to one person who would co-ordinate and write a single letter that would contain most of the points we should make. I could write a letter that I think says it all. But if several of us wrote these individual letters and sent them to you, maybe it would be better for you to co-ordinate them all and take what you consider good from each letter and reject what you consider “not good” and then come up with a single letter that we could all sign. I suggest this because you could phrase the letter as something personal – in terms of your own experience. None of us have had an experience like yours.
I think it would be better for each person to send the same letter but for the Senator to receive ten different letters that all say the same thing instead of receiving one letter signed by ten different people – like a petition.
Please let us know what you think would be the best approach and also, perhaps you could nominate someone who you know is highly skilled at writing effective letters and allow them to take the individual drafts and polish them into one single effective letter.
Then, we could all send that letter – but separately – over our individual signatures. Or, we could all sign the same letter so the senator receives a single letter with multiple signatures. I think the first approach is superior. But I’d be happy to do it however you prefer. Maybe we might even persuade Mike to act for us in creating the text of the letter? Or maybe he might have too much on his hands just now and maybe you might know someone else who is a skilled writer who could write the letter on our behalf?
Or
Skyler another way to help the Aftermath Fdn is by registering with Amazon.smile.org. ( I may be off on the end of the address but Smile is in it). That way when you buy anything from Amazon via the Smile thing, a they match a portion of what you spend and give it to the group you specify, which in this case is The Aftermath Foundation. It is a painless way to contribute.
Yes, Cindy. It is painless and also very effective. Thank you for presenting that suggestion. Several people here have reported just how much they like that ability.
I’ve read where a fax or an email gets more attention nowadays, ever since the anthrax attacks. However, US pols usually have some barrier to try to insure they only get contacts from constituents with addresses in their district or state.
Spot on Mary! Keeping you in my thoughts.
Karin Pouw’s response in part: “…houses of worship…” ????
Xenu is hiding in my home under floorboards from these nut jobs.
“And as far as I’m concerned, losing my son to disconnection is a “hate crime” enforced by the church of scientology. Telling the truth about it on Leah’s “Aftermath” is not.” Mary, I could not have said it better. The church is the one guilty of hate crimes: turning kids against the parents they love and then forcing disconnection IS a hate crime!
Mary,
Your last lines speak volumes. If anyone is guilty of committing hate crimes, its scientology and Miscavige. I hope that the whole thing is winding down to its ultimate end, and that you can reconnect with your son very soon.
Kat
Mary Kahn:”And as far as I’m concerned, losing my son to disconnection is a “hate crime” enforced by the church of scientology. Telling the truth about it on Leah’s “Aftermath” is not.”
Even Tubby recognized that criminals accused everyone else of the crimes they were committing on a daily basis. Listen to scn’s accusations and you hear the litany of their misdeeds. YOU don’t have to, of course. You’ve experienced their crimes against humanity firsthand.
Yes Mary. I look forward to the day the spell is broken for our loved ones and they come back home. Thank you for inspiring others to handle this with grace and elegance. ?
I’m very interested in who shot the two responding police officers. So far the information we have is that the subject entered the building with a long sword and was subsequently shot and killed by police. The news that the 2 officers were shot is very confusing. Did they shoot each other? Did a yet announced 3rd party shoot both officers? Did the subject show how get access to a gun while inside the building? Or did Scientology’s armed security guards mistakenly shoot the police? Very interesting.
I’ve read everything I could find so far on this… The CofS says their security guard was not armed, there’s been no evidence YET that the sword-wielding suspect had a firearm, and it has been noted that it’s quite possible that the officers were shot by friendly fire. Ricochet could have happened, or if one of the officers was close to the assailant/in the line of fire he could have been hit. The injuries to the officers were minor, thankfully. We just don’t know enough yet and Tony says the PD is not being forthcoming. Hopefully these tragic circumstances will be made more clear soon.
There’s the old military saying, that first reports are always wrong…I’ve seen some reports indicating that at least one of the officers’ injuries was not necessarily a gunshot wound, and so might have been a sword wound; and that a gun was found at the scene, in which case the suspect might have had that in addition to the sword. The officers could have been shot, could have shot each other, or could have received wounds due to something other than a gunshot including ricocheting material.
Apparently only a very detailed accounting of the incident is going to clear things up, and Tony Ortega says that the LAPD are typically very slow to provide information, especially in sensitive cases.
Badbilly said:”Or did Scientology’s armed security guards mistakenly shoot the police? Very interesting.”
I’m a long time away from firsthand knowledge, but AFAICT, scientology’s security guards don’t carry weapons more lethal than a billy club, mace, and maybe a Taser. IF someone had access to a firearm, I believe it had to enter the building with a policeman.
“Thursday Tragedy”
It’s a shame that scientology pulls in such a volume of tragedies which any sane, caring person would mourn, that that title can be written at all. Let’s see, the previous crazy person with a sharp blade was… What, Last week?? AND this time, it’s the police who are injured by the assailant, presumably. Of course, I’d rather have the Thursday Funnies instead, much as I feel that staffers SHOULD be more afraid to show up for work.What would happen if all scientology staff including SO crew gave it up and stayed home? NOTHING!, and the world would be better for that, IMO. Nothing is far better than one person forced to do meaningless make-work for 16-20 hours a day for little or no pay. OR one person succumbing to the mind-desttroying teachings of the Tubby one.
Let’s see……it’s around 8 am in LA right now
Dave should be up in 6-7 hours and then a statement will be issued 3 hours later after he rejects the first 25 drafts
So, we should hear something by 7 pm I imagine