A Special Correspondent sent me this article from Psychology Today:
Now, you might think, after reading the list that follows, that this was compiled based on a study of David Miscavige.
In fact, these are the people the author claims to have studied in order to compile his list:
Now, be prepared to be amazed at just how close to the bone this cuts.
Based on studying Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charlie Manson, Bhagwan Rajneesh etc here is the list of typical traits of the pathological cult leader he came up with, and warns “you should watch for and which shout caution, get away, run, or avoid if possible”
It is a checklist of David Miscavige personality traits.
- He has a grandiose idea of who he is and what he can achieve.
- Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, or brilliance.
- Demands blind unquestioned obedience.
- Requires excessive admiration from followers and outsiders.
- Has a sense of entitlement – expecting to be treated special at all times.
- Is exploitative of others by asking for their money or that of relatives putting others at financial risk.
- Is arrogant and haughty in his behavior or attitude.
- Has an exaggerated sense of power (entitlement) that allows him to bend rules and break laws.
- Takes sexual advantage of members of his sect or cult.
- Sex is a requirement with adults and sub adults as part of a ritual or rite.
- Is hypersensitive to how he is seen or perceived by others.
- Publicly devalues others as being inferior, incapable, or not worthy.
- Makes members confess their sins or faults publicly subjecting them to ridicule or humiliation while revealing exploitable weaknesses of the penitent.
- Has ignored the needs of others, including: biological, physical, emotional, and financial needs.
- Is frequently boastful of accomplishments.
- Needs to be the center of attention and does things to distract others to insure that he or she is being noticed by arriving late, using exotic clothing, overdramatic speech, or by making theatrical entrances.
- Has insisted in always having the best of anything (house, car, jewelry, clothes) even when others are relegated to lesser facilities, amenities, or clothing.
- Doesn’t seem to listen well to needs of others, communication is usually one-way in the form of dictates.
- Haughtiness, grandiosity, and the need to be controlling is part of his personality.
- Behaves as though people are objects to be used, manipulated or exploited for personal gain.
- When criticized he tends to lash out not just with anger but with rage.
- Anyone who criticizes or questions him is called an “enemy.”
- Refers to non-members or non-believers in him as “the enemy.”
- Acts imperious at times, not wishing to know what others think or desire.
- Believes himself to be omnipotent.
- Has “magical” answers or solutions to problems.
- Is superficially charming.
- Habitually puts down others as inferior and only he is superior.
- Has a certain coldness or aloofness about him that makes others worry about who this person really is and or whether they really know him.
- Is deeply offended when there are perceived signs of boredom, being ignored or of being slighted.
- Treats others with contempt and arrogance.
- Is constantly assessing for those who are a threat or those who revere him.
- The word “I” dominates his conversations. He is oblivious to how often he references himself.
- Hates to be embarrassed or fail publicly – when he does he acts out with rage.
- Doesn’t seem to feel guilty for anything he has done wrong nor does he apologize for his actions.
- Believes he possesses the answers and solutions to world problems.
- Believes himself to be a deity or a chosen representative of a deity.
- Rigid, unbending, or insensitive describes how this person thinks.
- Tries to control others in what they do, read, view, or think.
- Has isolated members of his sect from contact with family or outside world.
- Monitors and or restricts contact with family or outsiders.
- Works the least but demands the most.
- Has stated that he is “destined for greatness” or that he will be “martyred.”
- Seems to be highly dependent of tribute and adoration and will often fish for compliments.
- Uses enforcers or sycophants to insure compliance from members or believers.
- Sees self as “unstoppable” perhaps has even said so.
- Conceals background or family which would disclose how plain or ordinary he is.
- Doesn’t think there is anything wrong with himself – in fact sees himself as perfection or “blessed.”
- Has taken away the freedom to leave, to travel, to pursue life, and liberty of followers.
- Has isolated the group physically (moved to a remote area) so as to not be observed.
When a cult or organizational leader has a preponderance of these traits then we can anticipate that at some point those who associate with him will likely suffer physically, emotionally, psychologically, or financially. If these traits sound familiar to leaders, groups, sects, or organizations known to you then expect those who associate with them to live in despair and to suffer even if they don’t know it, yet.
-Scientology is the technology of getting you to buy things that you don’t need.
Miscavige is just the sociopath to stand on top of such an organization, as he just about goes beside himself seeing you pay $100,000 for that next, “precious”, level on The Bridge. Nothing could be more fun.
Of course, the normal human being can’t afford to do that, so he gets his next favorite thing, getting you to work for free (maniacally, your entire life), offering that same next step like a carrot in front of a donkey. Sign your life away on Sea Org and, regardless, that step never gets delivered, not for you. Tom Cruise maybe, not you. The purpose of the Bridge is to keep you trapped, just the polar opposite of Total Freedom.
That he can get away with making you believe that you are inferior for being normal, is just another enjoyable perk for him. Double fun, as he kicks back in his relative paradise, spending that money, sleeping in that fine “church” we built for him.
Hi Mark Marco, Great post.Love reading your work.Evermore,Ann.
O, Ann-
You know its for you, Ann, especially when I post about the [noun, person], I have it dedicated in my mind to you, knowing the satisfaction you must feel seeing the light of truth being shed where darkness has before succeeded in compromising your personal life, as I have learned. It is such an honor, just to know that a person such as you is real and knows of my existence.
There is a post further down that provokes me to write a word now, as the person attempted to encapsulate all of us who write here, raises the need to express my purpose for myself, if I may:
Early in his adulthood, Hubbard learned he could control people and became fascinated with the phenomenon. He could control their minds, the controlling system of the individual. He recognized the self-empowering result of such knowledge. Fascination became obsession, and immediately took to the idea of keeping it, the things he really learned, secret so as to maintain that advantage over the rest of humanity. As he did this, and worked to continue to fanatically improve the model.
Until one day, he finally took the advanced step, the day he modified the label of his model from “a technology” to “a religion”, correctly assuming that doing so would give him more persuasive sway, not to mention a great deal of legal protection.
My reason for being here and saying what I do is simply to expose the truth. I want to point out the absence of critical thought as an indemic quality of the structure of this belief-system, and I want to contrast, in simplest terms available to me, what Scientology offers vs. what they deliver, because doing so starkly reveals the true fallacy that is the Church of Scientology.
Whenever, at this late date and forever in the future, you feel threatened or cheated by this so-called religion I ask you to remember that, always, from beginning to end -ALL this thing called Scientology ever was, was a language, a thing of imagination in its entirety. It was and remains a secret. Secrets never outlive the truth. Like a dead language, this thing of imagination is ultimately destined to be forgot, and you are so alive. Love-mm
Hi Mark Marco, Thank you my Angel.Your post is a keeper,in words and always in my heart.Evermore,An
Jesse Prince kept describing Captain David “he is NOT insane!” as a “mini-Hubbard” at the Toronto Getting Clear conference….
Bingo! The only one not listed was “Broods with a seething hatred if temporarily unable to act impulsively on psychopathic desires.”
Great post Mike! I would just like to clarify that this person now posting on your blog as Penny is not me, Penny Krieger. I am so far “out” now, I’ll be approaching the next galaxy here soon:)
Hi Penny Krieger. I was sure that other Penny was not you…. 🙂
Thanks Penny, I did think that other Penny was you. Laughter!! XXOO
Hi Penny Krieger,Good to meet you.I wanted to say I love your comment about being so “far out now,that you will be approaching the next galaxy here soon”.Wonderful image and gave me a smile.Thank you.Always,Ann.
This sounds just like Hubbard, too.
His camouflage may have been a bit more effective and the fact that there was no internet, knews of his behaviour was easily concealed.
DM can spit farther and punch harder than any archbishop or pontiff who has ever lived. And when it comes to flogging the dead horse of a religion then he has got that dead horse from more than 50 years ago running in record time and doing cartwheels with the faithful chumps donating their fortunes into it. To me, he is clearly the greatest religious leader ever to have lived.
And I could probably live another 50 years eating just pretzels and beer, soaking up to the pontifications of Ro…
Thank you Mike Rinder
Well lets see…. there are folks who like LRH because they’ve had good experiences with some, most or all of his tech. There are some folks who like some of what LRH came up with, but have disagreements with other stuff. There are some who like part of the tech, but were treated cruelly by other aspects of this tech, and are fucken pissed off about it. There are some who hear about others’ bad stories and just want to jump on the band wagon…. lots of scenarios. Most “cults” I feel, are pretty much black and white issues. Scientology…. not so much. Lots of babies, lots of bathwater. You really can’t get on someone’s case because they learned something in Scientology. And you really can’t blame someone who was treated cruelly, and unfairly in Scientology for being really pissed off and wanting that aspect to stop. Peoples experiences are their experiences; You can disagree that wasn’t your experience, but don’t berate those who’s experiences are different than yours.
Excellent comment, Overun-in-California ; very balanced indeed.
TC
Way too balanced for my taste,
I can’t discount the fraud and intentional deception, especially the lure he (Mr. H) created to get the vulnerable into his trap. I can’t ignore the callously torn family every Scientologist represents, including his own, I can not toloerate the coersion and abuse he imposed on every follower he benifited from, and lastly, i cannot attribute any validity to his technology when he, himself died categorically insane, in hiding from himself, himself a complete failure and refusing to tell you the truth.
L. Ron Hubbard is the source of my unmitigated indignation.
True enough. Not only does individual experience with the tech differ, each person separates and copes differently with leaving Scientology. Reading comments daily, I can see those who still feel angry, frustrated and betrayed, those who cope with humor, and those who’s comments just affirm and welcome each poster.
Some see continuing to practice Scientology an interim way of coping after leaving, others will always incorporate the tech in their lives outside the web. Common ground is usually Miscavige’s pathology and the money grab, and Mike’s credibility calling that out.
There has always been back and forth in the comments between those who still use the tech, and those that see LRH as a fraud. Over the life of this blog (and Tony’s and originally Marty’s) this hasn’t changed. Every now and then someone still practicing the tech gets defensive, and/or someone else still furious and feeling scammed attacks. No one’s opinion seems to change just from arguing here. We all come to our own conclusions.
Those who have shared their SO horror stories about life on the Freewinds and on staff with LRH convince me that there is more similarity than difference between these men.
Hi tampafan,Good to meet you.Your post is so relevant and true for me.I agree that there is more similarity between Ron and David Miscavige than differences.Thank you.Always,Ann.
I may be way out in left field with this but I have a feeling that today’s “Nickname” is not the same “Nickname” who has been posting here all along. A while back, someone all of a sudden started posting on this blog as “Cindy” and, per my recollection was requested to change that name by the “Cindy” who’s been posting here for years and who came out on this blog. I’m not sure how this issue resolved and if the 2nd Cindy changed her/his name and now posts under another name.
Aqua you are the voice of reason as always and I agree…. As an officer of lurking I am qualified to agree. I have medals and a tassel and everything. Lol. I’m serious in my first sentence, the rest is up for interpretation. 😉
Hi Aquamarine,Thank you for bringing this up.I have felt similar thoughts about a poster grabbing someone else’s name and running with it.Fortunately I have a certain style of writing that some one might copy,but it would come across as flat,as my essence would not be there.Strange days on the web! Always like your posts so much.Love,Ann
Ann, I was the second Cindy as I was new to the blog and changed immediately to Cindylou2 when it was brought to my attention! I can see though how that could be an issue. Have a good afternoon!
Hi Cindy Lou2, Thank you for helping me out! This old lady is relatively new to blogging and at times I do get my wires crossed! I always like your posts.Ann.
Thank you Ann! I don’t post often as you and the other regulars are very intelligent and I mainly just read the comments!
Hi Cindy Lou2,Yes I read all the comments too.But when you do post I look for you.You are most intelligent! Love,Ann.
Aquamarine, I think the “second” Cindy you are talking about is me! Cindylou2. I was new to the blog and didn’t realize there was already a Cindy and changed to the above name. I don’t post much but enjoy reading the blog. I was a public scientologist at one time and was declared a SP when I was taking courses at the Cincinnati (at that time it was called a mission) then they undeclared me but by that time I could have cared less! Anyway I have nothing posted in any other name and actually made a new friend of the other Cindy on FB. ?
Hello Cindylou2 and thanks so much for the update on this. Thanks also for not taking offense with what I posted about possible troll using Nickname’s name and using the “Cindy Issue” as a possible example of trolling.Glad to make your acquaintance here 🙂 and very glad to hear you’ve connected with and become FB friends with “Cindy #1”. She sounds like someone with whom I’d like to be friends as well.
The Little Shit has all 50 points and excells in every one!
Opinions are just like assholes, everyone has one. So here is mine. I for one like to help my fellow man. If I find something that has helped me I like to pass it on and not shove it down another’s throat. I work with those who want to work with me and me with them. Just help someone and enjoy doing it. And then you can listen to any opinion and realize it is just an opinion and take from it what you want or not and move forward into your future.
“…. you can listen to any opinion and realize it is just an opinion …”
In a similar vein, what’s true is what’s true for you. Except that some things are facts and some things are opinions. Some opinions are well founded and some opinions are self-serving or self-deluded nonsense. Some people have found something that is harmful, has and continues to break apart families, has and continues to leave victims penurious (and these are facts), and they want to help people by calling attention to those cruel forces and working to tear them down. For parents cut off from their children by greedy third party influences, it’s not just their opinion that they are suffering and rightfully seek a remedy.
Can you be helped by following and revering a man that lied about every single thing in his life story, including pretended exploits and decorations in war? A man who locked small children for days at a time in a ship’s chain locker for non-existent infractions? A man who left a string of unpaid bills and cheated business associates everywhere he fled from? A man who disclaimed the existence of one of his bigamous marriages? A man who kidnapped his own child in order to manipulate his estranged wife? A man who relentlessly searched for imaginary buried treasure? A man who, while selling the promise of sanity to his customers, suffered from debilitating mental illness?
This seems like a proposition the bad prospects for which demand blaring warnings against. That is my well founded opinion.
And, Hgc10, there is a wealth of empirical data to support your opinion. You know, many a conqueror has taken pleasure in ¨assisting¨ his fellow human by enslaving him/her, raping him, denying his history and religion and ¨re-educating¨ him, stealing his land and animals…or simply killing him, as his live was ¨worthless¨ anyway. Scientology is neither a religion nor a technology, but a bricolage of stolen ideas and fabricated concepts(created by a racist, drug-and-alcohol-abusing, narcissistic asshole) designed expressly to manipulate and enslave its adherents. It is the ¨art¨ of spiritual rape, marketed as a scientifically-validated self-help system. Like the conquerors who characterized their genocidal exploits as ¨progress¨ and ¨civilization¨, Scientology and its Pimping, Punching, Scotch-Swilling Pontiff try to rewrite their criminal, abusive actions as the noble efforts of a spiritual elite who are solely responsible for the ¨salvage¨of this universe.
Utter horseshit from a deluded cult founded by a Crowleyian Rat-Fucker and run by a sociopathic , diminutive wank-stain…
¨ live¨ should be¨ life¨
Hi hgc10,Applause from me for your laser sharp post. Thank you,you have a great way with words.Love,Ann
But, facts are facts. DM & Hubbard fall into the violent felon category. By their FACTUAL actions. The Scientology cult has destroy MANY lives and families. Fact, not opinion.
Mike if you feel my last post to nickname is just going to get him more upset and worked up you have my permission to delete it/not post it
Hi observinginsandiego,Do not worry about anything you post.You are a sweet spirit and as one great poster told me,Ann do not develop a thick skin,you are fine as you are.XO Always, Ann.
🙂 *hugs*
+1! You’re needed here!
Free delivery,
to the gentleman objecting to the constant insult directed towards Mr. Hubbard,
I offer this quality lipstick to dress up his beloved pet pig.
If someone stays in Scientology too long – they almost have to “valence shift into this narcissistic type of personality. There is a lot of “altitude” used in Scientology. My FSM used to tell me all the time how “trained they were” .. It was bad…he was so invalidated as a “being” – I am sure this is .a side effect of being totally invalidated and nullified by the Organization after becoming a Class Five Auditor, FEBC trained, Course Sup and on Level seven…but had certs cancelled and was told to start over…Oh – and to show you how well Scientology worked in making this being responsible…he knows something is very wrong but is hiding UTR – still in drinking the kool aide waiting for “management’ to get things right. Now isn’t that pan determined of him?
Off topic good news: Cars at the Bunker posted a tweet from Jigsaw announcing that American airlines is showing Going Clear on its flights between Chicago’s O’Hare and New York’s La Guardia. Cool.
How cool is that 🙂
OMG!!!!! It just keeps getting better & better & better and….
Hmmmmm. Hey Mike, how is the cult going to ground all those planes so on one can see Going Clear at 30,000 ft?
Hi Aquamarine, Thank you for the info.That is cool,yes I do tend to date mysel,but your post is good news.Love,Ann.
Oh, wow! This is great news, indeed!
That’s great news Aqua!
Well , I didn’t want it to come to that , nut it seems that KSW supporters are really asking for it , so here I go. My own views about how those points (at least 70-75% of them) DO apply to LRH as well.
1. He has a grandiose idea of who he is and what he can achieve.
He was allegedly the Buddha and his reincarnation , Maitreya. And taking the “Lucufer OT VIII” as authentic , he will also be the “Anti-Christ”.
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, or brilliance.
He frequently makes comments at almost all his lectures about his great “success” at having unrevealed the mysteries of life and existence. He wasn’t ever R6ed (personally gone through Inc II) according to him , and was the ONLY one who had ever successfully gotten all the insidious materials from OT III. He was allegedly able to “escape” from the “In-Between lives area” in PT ( not as a past life experience) and allegedly got ALL the information about it. He was ,THIS life time , “almost hit by a freight locomotive” at Venus. And the list go on , and on , and on.
3. Demands blind unquestioned obedience.
What KSW #1 is ALL about , and the class VIII materials as well.
4. Requires excessive admiration from followers and outsiders.
“Do it the LRH way” , “What would Ron do in a situation like this ?” , “Sounding like LRH did in his TRS , in order to have ‘perfect’ TRs” , come to mind about this point.
5. Has a sense of entitlement – expecting to be treated special at all times.
“All science is wrong , I am 100% right” , ” NO other philosophy compares to Scn” , “MY only defense for having lived” bullshit story , “My philosophy” contradictory essay , etc, etc, etc,.
6. Is exploitative of others by asking for their money or that of relatives putting others at financial risk.
“Let’s ‘save’ the planet with slave labor earning a mere $30 a week (Is it more today ?) , while I make millions in royalties”
7. Is arrogant and haughty in his behavior or attitude.
Can anyone really need any proof of this ? I mean , come on , we are talking about LRH here ?
8. Has an exaggerated sense of power (entitlement) that allows him to bend rules and break laws.
“I am the ONLY , ONLY one capable of ‘saving’ those petty and fragile little humans from total oblivion and eternal darkness”. “So therefore I am going to bend the rules a little and violate the Freedom of Speech right and the Freedom of Religion right of others because I really know better than they, and w/out Scn they don’t stand any chance at “Spiritual Salvation”.
How am I doing , dear Nickname ? You opened the door to this discussion ; you asked for it. I would have stayed totally shut , but KSW never learn.
9. Takes sexual advantage of members of his sect or cult.
I can’t honestly say that I ever witnessed anything relating to that , and I have no evidence whatsoever regarding this point , not even hearsay evidence.
10. Sex is a requirement with adults and sub adults as part of a ritual or rite.
Same as in #9 above.
11. Is hypersensitive to how he is seen or perceived by others.
I have heard several reports on this but nothing confirmed or verifiable.
12. Publicly devalues others as being inferior, incapable, or not worthy.
All the time he did this. He did it with medical doctors , psychiatrists , psychologists , scientists , government , other “practices” , other philosophies , etc , etc.
13. Makes members confess their sins or faults publicly subjecting them to ridicule or humiliation while revealing exploitable weaknesses of the penitent.
Not nearly as intense as DM does this , but he did it with Mayo , and supported 100% doing it with ‘enemies’ , which in his jargon meant ANYONE criticizing or being in disagreement with ANY point in Scn. And please , please , don’t come now to quote the “what is true is what is true for you” full of contradictions point.
14. Has ignored the needs of others, including: biological, physical, emotional, and financial needs.
“Nothing , absolutely nothing is more important than paying for the “Bridge to Nowhere”. “If he is an ‘SP’ you better disconnect or else , I don’t care if it is family”. “Forget about recreation or spending quality time with your kids and family , that is only ‘other-intentioness’ “. “Join the SO for a BILLION years , earn a misery salary of $30-50 a week , a lousy food , depressive berthings , ‘save’ the planet , while I earn millions and live as a king”. (compared to his shipmates , DM has this point a lot , lot more than LRH had it).
15. Is frequently boastful of accomplishments.
“I am a nuclear physicist” , “I was the only one to having recovered the materials from Inc II , who could live through it” , “I wasn’t R6-ed , so it is more your job than it is mine” , “I was able somehow to ‘raise’ above my bank , and the ideas of EVERYBODY else are just ‘bank ideas’ “. “No auditor ever seem able to do what I do , they NEVER duplicate me , so I have to be constantly changing the procedures”.
16. Needs to be the center of attention and does things to distract others to insure that he or she is being noticed by arriving late, using exotic clothing, overdramatic speech, or by making theatrical entrances.
“Overdramatic speeches” was his thing , all right. Exotic clothing , I wouldn’t know. Arriving late , I don’t think so.
17. Has insisted in always having the best of anything (house, car, jewelry, clothes) even when others are relegated to lesser facilities, amenities, or clothing.
I don’t think so , but I have no direct observation experience with this. Mike would know more about this point.
18. Doesn’t seem to listen well to needs of others, communication is usually one-way in the form of dictates.
I am not sure of this point , but I am inclined to disagree that he possessed it to any marked degree.
19. Haughtiness, grandiosity, and the need to be controlling is part of his personality.
Yes , he was like that. All the above covers that. “DO only what LRH tells you to do to succeed in life” , “Only use ‘Standard Tech’ if you don’t want to fail in life and in processing”.
20. Behaves as though people are objects to be used, manipulated or exploited for personal gain.
Having hundreds of SO members , many of them just kids w/out a proper education , working 15 hours a day 7 days a week , with almost no pay , with berthings a lot worse than the ones from the ARMY , away from their families , with a bunch of 12 years old ‘Messengers’ taking care of even your cigarette ashes , with no possible retirement account , with no future at all , IS , IS exploitation to the n-th degree , and a coward act as well.
21. When criticized he tends to lash out not just with anger but with rage.
Do I really have to explain this trait ? Don’t think so.
22. Anyone who criticizes or questions him is called an “enemy.”
This is the trait that BEST describes LRH. In fact , in this particular point , DM is a carbon-copy of LRH. Psychiatrists , psychologists , governments , medicos , newspapers , reporters , etc , etc , etc , were LRH’s ‘enemies’.
23. Refers to non-members or non-believers in him as “the enemy.”
Not necessarily so.
24. Acts imperious at times, not wishing to know what others think or desire.
Wouldn’t know about this point.
25. Believes himself to be omnipotent.
Oh yes , he did , up to his death.
26. Has “magical” answers or solutions to problems.
He “had” the answers to EVERY FUCKING thing , in fact.
27. Is superficially charming.
I don’t think that he was ever superficial at anything. Charming ? , the most.
28. Habitually puts down others as inferior and only he is superior.
See the above points.
29. Has a certain coldness or aloofness about him that makes others worry about who this person really is and or whether they really know him.
Don’t think so.
30. Is deeply offended when there are perceived signs of boredom, being ignored or of being slighted.
Don’t really know. He was very sure of himself for real.
31. Treats others with contempt and arrogance.
As explained in other points above. But he was incredible friendly most of the times.
32. Is constantly assessing for those who are a threat or those who revere him.
For those he perceived as a threat , yes.
33. The word “I” dominates his conversations. He is oblivious to how often he references himself.
I am not sure about this one , but he was incredible confident in himself. Can’t compare with DM at all in this point.
34. Hates to be embarrassed or fail publicly – when he does he acts out with rage.
As far as I know , he wasn’t ever embarrassed publicly (besides when he attempted to “prove” the abilities of a Clear , but he handled it quite well) , nor ever failed publicly. He was a master orator even better than Dr. King.
35. Doesn’t seem to feel guilty for anything he has done wrong nor does he apologize for his actions.
I don’t think so. When he was able to see a blind stop in himself (which wasn’t something that happened with ANY frequency at all) , he was usually able to apologize and change it.
36. Believes he possesses the answers and solutions to world problems.
Of course he did. We wouldn’t have Scn otherwise. I can’t never decide though , whether or not he actually believed that. Did he wanted to deceive us , or did he really believe it ? I might never have a unbiased answer to that.
37. Believes himself to be a deity or a chosen representative of a deity.
“The Buddha” , “Meitreya” , “Antichrist” ? , “A savior to all humanity”.
38. Rigid, unbending, or insensitive describes how this person thinks.
Rigid and unbending about the alleged perfection of Scn , and the alleged infallibility of “Standard Tech”.
39. Tries to control others in what they do, read, view, or think.
Oh yes , even if unwittingly so. “KSW #1” , “Standard Tech” , “No other therapy or philosophy have any real value” , “You need to go up the Bridge” , “If you don’t come to course or to auditing , then you are ‘out-ethics’ on your 1st Dynamic , cause you MUST , MUST go free”. “To hell with having a right to your own life and sanity, I command you to be free”.
40. Has isolated members of his sect from contact with family or outside world.
“The ‘Wog world’ is full of idiots full of false data and a death wish”. Family members are just people to “match their tone levels” so they don’t bother us with the ‘what are you doing in that cult’ bullshit.”
41. Monitors and or restricts contact with family or outsiders.
See above point.
42. Works the least but demands the most.
Not at all. He always worked his ass.
43. Has stated that he is “destined for greatness” or that he will be “martyred.”
Not that I could see. I don’t think he shares this point at all.
44. Seems to be highly dependent of tribute and adoration and will often fish for compliments.
Don’t think so.
45. Uses enforcers or sycophants to insure compliance from members or believers.
The use of Sec Checks falls into this category. A Sec Check is a perfect “enforcer” of obedience. The “SP Acts list” is also an enforcer , and lots of its point violates Human Rights.
46. Sees self as “unstoppable” perhaps has even said so.
Oh yes , he believed he was unstoppable. I don’t see anything wrong with that point though. The most worthy enemies all share this trait.
47. Conceals background or family which would disclose how plain or ordinary he is.
Oh yes , he had this. All the lies about his real past and background. I mean this is something FULLY documented.
48. Doesn’t think there is anything wrong with himself – in fact sees himself as perfection or “blessed.”
I don’t think he saw himself like that.
49. Has taken away the freedom to leave, to travel, to pursue life, and liberty of followers.
In many ways yes , even not directly so ; but as the result of many of his policies. Not being able to publicly depart Scn , fits into that. Having to follow the Bridge as intense as possible ignoring other parts of our lives , otherwise being labeled as having “other intentions” , is another aspect of this trait.
50. Has isolated the group physically (moved to a remote area) so as to not be observed.
The SO originally at the sea. That was the original purpose. His use of ships to administer Scn,. The headquarters at SH.
How did I do , dear Nickname ?
TC
Let me fill in some of the blanks:
11) You do know the origin of the Jokers and Degraders PL, right? One night aboard ship, Hubbard caught a Sea Org member doing what was said to be a very accurate and funny impersonation of the Great Man. Within 24 hours, the crew member was in the RPF and Jokers and Degraders came out. I would say that would qualify as “hypersensitive to how he is seen or perceived by others.”
17) Aboard the Apollo, the Hubbard family lived in luxury and ate the best food available, while the crew lived in cramped, disgusting quarters. That qualifies for this one.
18) You have got to be kidding. Communication with him was ALWAYS in the form of dictates. HCOBs, HCOPLs…all of them were one-way and thanks to KSW, none of them could be discussed, only obeyed.
23) He may not have used the word “enemy”, but that was certainly the gist of the discussion every time he talked about the psychs, the medicos, the dozen men who control the world, etc.
24) When he told the ships to head toward the US, did he ask any of his crew if they wanted to go there? No, it was his desire, so they went. Just to cite one example of his imperious behavior.
30) Oh, he was deeply offended at being slighted. Look at how many of the Scientology Old Guard he declared. Does a man who is not deeply offended at being slighted put a notice in a magazine that certain people should be shot on sight, the way he did in the Auditor with some alleged squirrels and Process R2-45?
43) So what was that remark he made to Polly, his first wife, about smashing his name into the history books? That’s a Destined For Greatness moment there.
44) Someone who is not highly dependent of tribute or adoration does not publish KSW #1.
48) Again, KSW #1 is a hallmark of someone who doesn’t think there’s anything wrong with him.
So, we’re now pretty damn close to every one of these traits applying to Lafayette Ronald Hubbard. And between you and me, we’ve backed it up with factual incidents. So let’s see what kind of refutation the Kool-Aiders try to do.
Hi Espiando, Thank you for this post.I think it is important and true.Love,Ann.
Are you sure you are a “never-in” ? You are pretty damn right about how you filled those blanks. How can a “never-been-a-Scientologist” understand Scn so well ?
” So, we’re now pretty damn close to every one of these traits applying to Lafayette Ronald Hubbard. And between you and me, we’ve backed it up with factual incidents. So let’s see what kind of refutation the Kool-Aiders try to do.”
Yes, let’s see. I certainly enjoy their “refutations” a lot. :-)))
TC
Dear Theta Clear, I had a deep hatred for Miscavige (even if supressed) since the very first day I saw him (he remind me of Goebbels). I have a full rejection of this kind of personnality. But never I had this feeling for Hubbard. He may have some megalomaniac traits but being aware of what he takle, he may conceive having a greater responsibility. I never felt suppressed in anyway by Hubbard.
The reaction of hate toward SP is a first thought often suppressed. The kind of “second thought”, late realization, is often created by an agreement with some other viewpoint.
The church is using this mechanism to make you “cognite” that somebody is SP. You go with the MAA through the checklist of antiscial’s trait, and “after all” you realize your friend is in fact an SP.
Miscavige has all the traits of SP, sociopath etc… But Hubbard, for me, is a wrong item! I loved this guy.
“Miscavige has all the traits of SP, sociopath etc… But Hubbard, for me, is a wrong item! I loved this guy.”
Dear FG, that LRH might have shared some or many or almost all of the characteristics of a cult leader doesn’t necessarily makes him an SP ; I don’t think he was , and I too loved the guy and still do , even with a lot of mixed emotions. But remember that one can be an “SP item” for some terminal(s) and not necessarily for others. PTSness is an individual issue not a group issue. I am sure that for many he was an “SP item” which doesn’t mean at all that he had more than 6 of the SP traits, but only means he was an item for that particular terminal. For many, many more he wasn’t such an item. For me he was through many his policies. Remenber your basic “Hung up at Doubt” data as regards PTSness. Someone can be an SP item through the false data that he disseminated to us.Truth is only relative, my friend ; only relative.
Take care.
ARC,
TC
And how many times have you been sec checked and the question of having bad thoughts about LRH popped up? I think you may have been conditioned into this “love”. Do me a favor and read the last few pages of George Orwell’s “1984”. You, sir, are Winston Smith at the end of the book. You love Big Brother.
FG, many violent sociopaths are loved. That has no bearing on their sanity.
#11, impersonating the Commodore=RPF is a new twist on what I heard: long-time SO mbr Bill H was doing the same, circa 1967, as LRH was entering the space.
The result: a new Flag Order, #38, titled Etiquette, issued the next day, one clause of which is “Do not do comic imitations of Ship’s Officers. The ship is their home and nothing should make them want to leave it.”
No overt punishment for Howie. How he must have felt.
I think a question to raise (based on your post TC) is could COB have ever taken control in the way he has (the policies, the abuse, the unquestioning loyalty from followers, the humiliation people will endure (RPF comes to mind) without the indoctrination and framework laid by LRH? It has been pointed out by many people in these threads & posts by Mike but I felt it warranted another mention based on today’s subject. It is interesting to me in terms of the independent movement and ties into much of what everyone is commenting on. Ok I really need to stop posting for the day, too many days of wanting to post and never going through with it. 😉
It was Hubbards baby and his model from jump street, IMHO.
Hi Observingsandiego ,
” I think a question to raise (based on your post TC) is could COB have ever taken control in the way he has (the policies, the abuse, the unquestioning loyalty from followers, the humiliation people will endure (RPF comes to mind) without the indoctrination and framework laid by LRH?”
To answer your question , I don’t think that DM’s assumption of power and use of facist methods to “lead” the Church could have ever been possible w/out the “framework” (mostly based on policies from the mid ’60s period) that LRH left behind.
Are LRH and DM of comparable magnitude ? Not in a million years, no. DM probably has a .005% of LRH’s intelligence. LRH inspired others based on trust and data altitude , DM “inspire” based on fear and demands of adherence to strict dogmas. LRH was a natural leader, DM forced himself to “leadership” though he is smart and can pose as very charismatic ; he has an incredible voice control of audiences.
LRH would never ever had demanded of others to re-do Bridge steps unless it was pretty obvious that the individual had not really made those steps. LRH would never have cancelled any certificates unless he felt that an auditor had failed so much as to be considered a danger to PCs. These guys are not alike in any way, shape or form, even if they share similar characteristics as those outlined in this blog post. They do share them, all right, but at a VERY different level, under a completely different set of circumstances.
I wrote a very lenghty essay many months ago tittled, “Rehabilitating Scientology : Ideas for General Reform”. It was scheluded for publishing at the SA BIC blog. Due to apparent internal problems, it never got posted. Besides, I contacted their Admin to ask him to put a hold on posting it as I no longer had the same viewpoints that I had when I originally wrote it, and I wasn’t sure if Scn was really rehabilitation-worthy. If anybody is interested, I can always send it out by e-mail.
One of the points that I stresses in the essay is the need of ridding Scn of its many policies that violates fundamental Human Rights if Scn was to be rehabilitated at all. The Indie Field’s biggest blind spot today is that they miserably fail to PUBLICLY recognize ANY harmfulness in ANY of LRH’s policies. They fail to observe Scn from the viewpoint of the many that have been wronged by Scn. For many Indies, the individuals bitterly uttering criticisms towards Scn or LRH are mere “fail cases” , as they so self-righteously call them , and cases full of Missed W/Hs. And their movement isn’t going to ever succeed until they fully embrace for real the concept of Human Rights. I’ve trying to teach them that point for the last 2 years w/out too much success.
Here are two links to two specific articles/essays I wrote for BIC a while ago. They cover those points in detail. Please realize that I might not hold as true some or many views that I explained at those writings. Philosophy is an ever changing subject, and as a result of a constant study of the subject , specially the Human Rights issue, one’s viewpoints frequently changes as well usually for the better. So they shoud be read with that point in mind.
https://backincomm.wordpress.com/2015/03/14/on-human-rights-and-fundamentalism/#more-3297
https://backincomm.wordpress.com/2015/01/24/on-free-will-fundamentalism-and-the-workability-of-scientology/#more-3004
Anyway, thanks for the comm, and it has been a pleasure. I love the balance you instill at your posts.
Best regards,
Peter
Theta Clear ! I have a passion for you. What the hell are they doing on BIC? They just don’t publish any post. I would love to read your “rehabilitating scientology”. And you are right, Hubbard wrote some stupid ethics policies which would need cancellation.
If scientology is to survive, it has to be reformed. It would be too bad if the whole subject would sink into oblivion. I dream of the SP declare of Miscavige posted on all orgs.
It’s not just the stupid ethics policies. It’s a Tone Scale that says that I should be killed because I have same-gender sexual relations. It’s a Putrif that is based on no science whatsoever that has the potential to harm, both short-term and long-term (and has done so in reality). It’s a persecution complex that blames “the evil Psychs” for everything bad that has occurred since Incident 1, and wants to harm people by taking away psychoactive medication that has made their lives more bearable (honestly, I would have killed myself by now if not for my medication). It’s the deification of “the founder”, along with turning his biography into a hagiography permeated with lies.
Get rid of those, in addition to the entirety of Ethics and Admin, and you’ve made a good start in reforming Scientology. I still feel that the whole subject has to sink into oblivion, because too much damage has been done, but a reformed SCN would be a lot less odious.
As for the SP Declare, Jon Atack wrote one in 1986. Nearly three decades later, nothing has changed. Not a damn thing. The only thing today’s Scientologist would add on to the declare is squirreling the tech.
” Theta Clear ! I have a passion for you. What the hell are they doing on BIC? They just don’t publish any post. I would love to read your “rehabilitating scientology”. And you are right, Hubbard wrote some stupid ethics policies which would need cancellation. If scientology is to survive, it has to be reformed. It would be too bad if the whole subject would sink into oblivion. I dream of the SP declare of Miscavige posted on all orgs.”
Thanks for the validation, dear FG. Yes , I miss the BIC guys and gals too. Administering a Scn related blog ain’t an easy thing at all. One is likely to go PTS to all the entheta, and more so if dear OSA is messing around hacking where they can. Mike is one of the few that can take all this shit. I honestly have no clue how he does it. SA is a very hot spot full of snakes from the Church.
About my article , here is a very brief portion of if (like 10-20%) edited as I see fit. What follows are the points that, from my perspective, made Scn to go downhill and become a cult. I discuss them only briefly :
1. The monopolization of its accumulated knowledge through “trademarking” and “copyrighting”.
Knowledge as a commodity belongs to every sentient being , and not to any individuated clique. Just as scientific knowledge is never monopolized (as opposed to devises based on that knowledge) , spiritual knowledge should never be as well. It doesn’t really matter if LRH created the many processes and procedures contained in Scn as a totally original endeavor from himself ; STILL , it should never have been trademarked and copyrighted. Just by doing that , it immediately fell into the ranks of a profit-seeking business instead of a religion , as religions NEVER trademark and copyrights their rituals , and processes ARE rituals.
It was this trademarking and copyrighting initiative from Scn that created the suppressive concept of “The Squirrel” , and the constant witch-hunt of people who disagreed with one or more of the Scientology’s principles , and who sought alternative routes to spiritual knowledge.
2. The individuation from society by misguided and exclusive concepts such as “The Wogs” , and others “Them and US” considerations.
Scientology’s self-righteous indoctrinated attitude created a lot of accumulated BPC in others and many enemies as well. That attitude eventually created in many of us – specially on staff members and SO personnel – an aversion towards what we frequently called “The Wog World” , and made us individuate from “THEM”. Philosophies and religions are supposed to bring people together, and not to individuate them from each other. A false barrier was erected between “US” (Scientologists) and “Them” (The “Wogs”) , and we became trapped in uninspected ideas which resulted in a dwindling spiral of decreased confront of the real world in which were living at , and of the real people who lived in it.
3. Enforcing in individual parishioners the total responsibility for Technical failures in processing or training evidenced by the refusal to refund the money for low quality delivered services , and not being willing to at least offer a credit , resulting in many parishioners having to paid for the corrections of the errors that others committed.
Any professional is expected to do an effective job at his trade , and to bring about valuable final products in others. I mean , it is not only an “ethical issue” , it is also a matter of self-respect. One is bound to either deliver an acceptable and professional product , or just refund the money back.
4. Forced attendance to courses and counseling.
This is the first “religion” that I see using an “ethics” system to force parishioners to intensively participate in its rituals. Freedom is NEVER to be imposed on others ; NEVER. It doesn’t really matters if our own survival as beings is at stake ; STILL forcing others to “go free” is never workable. It violates one of the most fundamental rights of any being : The right to his life and to leave any game he no longer wants to play. If he wants to die and get lost into oblivion, so be it ; it is his life , not yours. He can do with it whatever the hell he wishes to.
5. A refusal to allow others leave on their Free Will w/out no ill consequences to them.
“Leaving Scientology” always presupposed the application of Ethics and Justice to ourselves by terminals only attempting to force us to “Stay In”, just creating an “Out-Int scenario. Again , this violates our right to leave any game , and the right #20 section 2 of the “Universal Declaration Of Human Rights” which state : “No one may be compelled to belong to an association”. And not allowing to “publicly” depart from Scientology also violates our freedom of Speech.
By just this point alone from the Scn Justice codes , the subject became an enslaving cult , and an imposition of an allegedly “superior” social class ; not much dissimilar to Hitler’s ideas at “Social Cleansing”.
6. A “religion” supposedly intended for the salvation of the human spirit , charging impossible prices for its services , getting out of the reach , as time went by, of the common working class.
Scientology started out as a very affordable practice where the common working class was able to pay for services even if with difficulty sometimes. It was easy to become trained and Clear. But as time went by , the prices began to get increased more and more each time , until by the end of the ’70s Scn became a subject mostly for the high Middle and Upper class ; but it IS allegedly a religion !!! Can there be anything more contradictory than that ? No ; I am afraid Scn is no religion at all , no matter how many “courts” are forced to accept the contrary to better err in the direction of protecting the Freedom of Religion right , which I fully suppport.
7. The use of incredible bothersome and useless “Routine Forms” just intended to keep the public IN the lines and paying for services.
If not “VGIs” at the end of any service (auditing and/or training , specially auditing) , or no “success story” , or “no re-sign” , then the Routine Form would take us to Qual (Review) to “handle” the alleged “Out-Tech” preventing us from wanting to continue to do services. How convenient and self-righteous.
8. Forced Disconnection.
One fundamental Human Right is the one about deciding , on our own self-determinism , to whom we want to be connected to or not , or to whom we should talk to or not. When that right is violated , general suppression ensues with its PTSing consequences for the one being forced to disconnect.
9. The need for a “Central Command structure” to “administer” Scientology.
SMI was originally created as a “service costumers” unit with the intention to make Missions flourish and prosper. It wasn’t an enforcing agency. Mission Holders were quite free to program their own expansion strategies based on their resources and their own understanding of their scene. Int was there to guide, to help. But it all became incredible bureaucratic with an emphasis in controlling EVERYTHING, like the infamous Mission Holders conference from 1982 (I think). A central command structure was never needed at all.
10. The emphasis on “Thursday before 2pm” stats , and the “Ethics” consequences for having low stats.
It all became a race to meet “Thursday before 2pm” quotas.
No matter how an honest and upright individual you were , the misguided pressure for stats always got to you , and you frequently sacrificed quality over quantity. To fail to do that , frequently meant a trip to “Ethics” , and a “lower condition” for you. This item ALONE all by itself was the main reason for “Quickie Grades”.
11. The attempt to control the parishioners’ lives through the Scientology’s Justice Code , specially the “SP Acts list” ; an unwelcome intrusion in the life of others.
This misguided emphasis from many religions to attempt to control the private life of their parishioners is really for the birds. The “Way To Happiness” booklet is sufficiently workable as a “moral guide” for acceptable conduct , and one excellent tool to help parishioners lead a happier and more ethical life. Those others Scn codes as the “SP Acts list” , was just a BIG introduction of an arbitrary that only (as arbitraries ALWAYS do) made things worse. They were only an attempt to control by threats and force what should have always been controlled by increased understanding and general case de-aberration.
12. Bringing Scientology to the rank of a religion when it is clearly NOT.
If you charge for services , you are NOT receiving “donations” ; PERIOD. Let’s not be so naive and call “Donations” our payment for services. Just as a psychologist , psychiatrist , or a Pastoral Counselor “counsel” others and charge for their services , Scientology “counsel” others and charge for its services as well. No mystery there at all. Scn deliver services where the “customer” expect to receive a return in his investment ; period. It ISN’T a “donation” at all. “Propaganda by redefinition of words” was an art LRH commanded very well.
13. The KSW #1 PL and the concept of “Standard Tech” as an error-free technology.
KSW ought to be re-written in a non-authoritarian way, demanding of others the exact application of Scn as written and then deciding on their own whether it works or not. I , if it depended on me , would just throw it away. Just an emphasis that ANY tech ought to be learned first w/out any alterations or deviations from it before attempting to change anything, is enough academic discipline. Anything else is just an authoritarian view of the subject. Let people decide on their own about the “standardness” or lack thereof of Scn tech. It is THEIR decision to make based on predicted results and expected products ; it should not be an imposition in any way , shape or form.
14. The dissemination of unreachable states such as a Clear and an OT. They hype of it all. Promise ONLY what you can deliver, or better make no promises at all, no claims.
The ONLY reason that many of us stayed in Scn in the first place was to achieve the alleged states of beingness that was possible to achieve by going up the Bridge. I would have sent Scn and LRH to go fuck themselves decades ago if I would have suspected that it all was mere hype. I stayed because I trusted LRH ; I trusted his word. I thought that becoming OT was possible with Scn. That I could defeat the “Birth-Death” cycle, and be able to freely communicate as a being (not as a body) with others. My dream at becoming a “Theta Clear” , even after many years trying using “Standard Tech” , didn’t get me any closer to it than I got in the first day I started the old SOPs (Standard Operating Procedures) . I wasted years of my life on that because I believed LRH ; I thought he was my dearest friend, that he would never attempt to fool me. That he would be honest with me. He was like a father to me , but I am no “prodigal son”.
But his legacy, as far as I am concerned, was shattered dreams and false hopes. Why did he choose to do that ? , I might never know. I would have accepted the truth, as truth is always a liberating enterprise. Instead , I only got lies, half-truths, and impossible dreams.
So there you have it, dear FG, what , from my perspective, made Scn totally fail.
Take care.
TC
“I think a question to raise (based on your post TC) is could COB have ever taken control in the way he has (the policies, the abuse, the unquestioning loyalty from followers, the humiliation people will endure (RPF comes to mind) without the indoctrination and framework laid by LRH? ”
No, it would have been completely impossible. Also Observingsandiego, Hubbard completely trusted DM, knew him and helped him rise to the top of the Scn Pyramid. So, either Hubbard wanted a psychopath at/near the top or, Hubbard really had NO f’ing clue about the Human mind, condition and couldn’t evaluate people. Which throws his “tek” out the window in almost its entirety.
” No, it would have been completely impossible. Also Observingsandiego, Hubbard completely trusted DM, knew him and helped him rise to the top of the Scn Pyramid. So, either Hubbard wanted a psychopath at/near the top or, Hubbard really had NO f’ing clue about the Human mind, condition and couldn’t evaluate people. Which throws his “tek” out the window in almost its entirety.”
Perhaps life would be a lot simpler if a two-valued logic was used to understand and evaluate it : “Yes v/s “No” , “Right” v/s “Wrong” , “White” v/s “Black”. Unfortunately (or furtunately) this isn’t how life works at all. Life is a Infinity-valued logic proposition.
Part of the traits of sychopaths is their keen ability to mask their insanity, which makes it difficult at times to properly identify them. If you analyze in detail LRH’s policies, then you must conclude that he wouldn’t have approved most, to not say NONE, of DM’s “expansion” and “recovery of ‘lost’ Tech” programs. In fact, he would have sent him right to the RPF. LRH must be right now twisting in desperation in his grave.
LRH said many times that he failed to apply his own principles to himself in a lot of ocassions. He was too prone to trust others, and even naive at times.
Did he failed to recognize DM for the crazy fuck he is ? Oh yes, he definitively did , and so did many thousands of trained auditors. Does this necessarily is a vital point that invalidates all of the Tech ? Now, thinking it does, is definitively going to extremes here and a weak argument. Yours are usually a lot better ; so step up again.
TC
LMAO! Sorry, DM was EASY to spot.
But, keep making excuses for the tek not working.
I beg to differ, but we can agree to disagree on that point.
Regarding the Tech, it has worked just fine for me for decades. Leaving all the hype aside , I’ve helped just too many lead a happier more fulfilling life with it. I have no regrets really. But to each its own.
TC
TC, Espiando, and John Locke – thank you all so much for responding to my question and giving your viewpoints. Seriously, thank you all for weighing in, it certainly educates me (and hopefully others) more and gives different perspectives.
T.C. did you work with/around DM? If not. your begging is meaningless.
Whatever , dear John ; whatever.
This is a very compelling subject. Not just what makes a sociopath, but what makes people willingly follow a sociopathic cult leader, even after these extreme traits become apparent? We are all susceptible, so it really helps to examine this subject very carefully.
What makes FLDS members follow Warren Jeffs, who is in jail for sexual abuse of minors? He’s been shown to have abused his followers, committed financial frauds, is accused of sexual misconduct of young boys and girls, had dozens of “wives” as young as 12 years old, and has virtually destroyed his community, yet many of his followers still rabidly defend him and do his bidding. Jeffs is their “prophet” and they obey his commands sent from his jail cell.
David Miscavige has people close to him who have personally witnessed his emotional and physical mistreatment of others, and other questionable acts, yet they are still his loyal followers, and we wonder why?
So this subject is very important to delve into further and try to understand, so as to prevent more people from falling into this trap, and try to help those who already have.
We, human beings as a group, seem to be predisposed to have more followers than leaders, which makes sense from an evolutional standpoint, but we need to be able to discern which leader is a good person to follow, and which person does not have the ability or intention to lead us in a good direction.
I don’t understand all aspects of this subject fully myself, so I am very interested in reading all the various comments. However, a commenter who has such a strong opinion about something and gets angry at those who do not share their opinion should not think they can dictate what is said here. When someone writes “you are correct” or “you are wrong”, it does not mean that now that person has spoken, the matter is decided, it just means that person has closed their mind to further thought, and also wants to dictate how others should view something. Same thing for people who write “period” after their comment, as if their word is final and the only one that matters. That type of post convinces no one of the validity of your viewpoint, and the conversation will continue despite your decree that it’s over now that you have spoken. lol.
This blog is run and maintained by Mike Rinder, and as owner of the blog, the posts will always be subjects of his choosing, putting forth his viewpoint. This is understood when we come to this site. The subject matter also interests us, or we wouldn’t be here, reading this blog. However, he includes a comments section which allows us to share our reaction to his posts, and give our own opinions, even when they differ from his, or from other commenters. No one has the right to say “you aren’t posting the correct things in your blog”. You do have the right to find another blog that more closely matches your views, if you don’t find what you are looking for here. If you are going to participate in a forum, you will encounter people who have views that differ from yours. Use this opportunity to learn, grow, spread information, put forth your views, even disagree, but in a respectful manner please, thanks.
and Hi to Ann B. I hope you are having a great day! 🙂 Much love always, T.J.
I agree completely with above TJ, and want to add that as a daily lurker, I find the independent movement interesting and worthy of polite discussion. It sometimes seems to be merely a stepping stone to fully out of Scientology, while some stay with it and the gains they receive from it. I can’t say that I understand it, but am always curious to learn. When the discussion gets nasty on either side it makes everyone’s valid points harder to understand/respect… *Spoken from the outsider lurker and not directed at particular post*
Agreed
Well said.
Hi T.J,Love you, love your post! Thank you angel always.Well I am going to go out on a limb and post something here about what happened to me in Sea Org.I think it may fit with what has been posted regarding Ron and how he really was when the spotlight was turned off.What was weird to me as I progressed in my early SO days and honestly I do not know why but more than a few Asho Day and Fdn SO members wanted to go on dates with me.Right from my first night there.So being the kind of person I am,I said fine and went.All were nice etc but nothing clicked ,I knew I was waiting for Mr. Right.I had a supervisor in Div 2 who had it in for me from day one,and after about one year and one half in Sea Org,a really vicious rumor started about me that I was a closet lesbian spy for the FBI sent to destroy the Sea Org.Before y’all start jumping on me I have a first cousin who has been gay since birth and I love him,I still will always love Quentin he was a true and beautiful spirit.And I am all inclusive about anyone if their heart is pure.However this rumor put out about me may have been the gateway to the Guardian’s Office /Intel deciding to play football with my body,mind,and soul.My point being Ron had extremely strong likes and dislikes when it came to sex and who was white in his mind and who was black.I see now all these years later I got myself into boiling water because I followed my heart not Ron’s heart,my heart when it came to falling in love in SO.I wish I could get some to understand that was a big no-no.The Sea Org had very rigid standards and Ron’s words and work was Law.I did not understand that completely when young.Yes I was airy fairy in that department.I guess T.J. I am trying to say all was not as it appeared in Sea Org.If a member showed any signs of a difference of viewpoint with Ron or the Tech there was punishment indeed.All can have their viewpoints about Ron/David I grant them that totally.Just do not expect me to shut those titanium doors behind me and not speak out about what happened to me.It still resonates with me,still hurts me,and is an important piece of the crazy puzzle that is the cult of Scientology.Thank you Always T.J., All pure love and light to you and your family.You are a dear friend too so I decided to vent to you.XO Ann.
Ann, loved this post, always follow your heart, you are an amazing person with an amazing heart.
Hi Observinginsandiego,Thank you angel,I do but try!Perhaps my way of amends for all those rich or poor I shoved ep the Bridge at Asho F because I truly believed and was hypnotized then to be Sae Org for Life.I am sorry.Love,Ann.
One more comment lol, yesterday I happened to read David Miscaviage’s profile on the Scientology site – needless to say it is full of many of the traits Mike has listed above. He has single-handedly saved the tech, the works, etc. From all that I’ve read about him it shouldn’t have come as a shock but to see that behavior so blatantly on display for everyone to see (read) was indeed shocking. How any person in business, athletics, universities, primary school etc could read that and NOT think something was amiss is beyond me. Exclusions (of course) given and recognized to anyone inside of the bubble.
Characteristics of Suppressive Persons:
1. Quote long lists full of Psych-invented gobbledygook terms and phrases in order to attack the world’s most important ecclesiastical leader.
2. Use the invented Psych terms “narcissist” and “narcissistic” repeatedly in order to attack, invalidate, and make others think less of the world’s most important ecclesiastical leader who, with his own hands, built the world’s largest all-digital on demand printing facility to print billions of urgently needed paper magazines and pamphlets for the wog masses clamoring to see thousands of pictures of — as well as read the inspiring and lengthy speeches of — the world’s most important ecclesiastical leader.
3. Compare the world’s most important ecclesiastical leader to actual SP cult leaders and brutal political dictators in a false A=A=A when the fact is that the aforementioned world’s most important ecclesiastical leader has never been arrested, indicted, charged, or convicted of any crime and has never even had any sort of traffic ticket and is, in fact, universally loved and admired by those around him as well as the billions of people around the world he has helped by his herculean labors and relentless devotion to helping fight drugs, illiteracy, and his championing of human rights.
4. SP’s spend all day attacking the world’s most important ecclesiastical leader because they have nothing better to do and their lives are empty, hollow, and meaningless. SP’s can only feel good about themselves by attacking the world’s most important ecclesiastical leader and the 2,228,917 Ideal Orgs he has opened at the crossroads and epicenters of civilizations of the planet.
5. Refuse to donate large sums of money to help the world’s most important ecclesiastical leader carry out his singularly brilliant and planetary-changing plans and purposes such as building three large television production studios to meet the ever-increasing demand of a world that clamors to watch more speeches made by the world’s most important ecclesiastical leader.
6. Attack those who correctly and reverently worship the world’s most important ecclesiastical leader by calling these worshipers “sycophants”, “suck ups” etc.
7. Think less of those who selflessly donate large sums of money for planetary-changing trophies by calling them “Kook Aid drinkers” or “bubble dwellers.”
absolutely true, and would be funny if not so tragically true. it would be one thing if DM were some loser spouting his narcissistic ideas on a blog or youtube channel, but the fact that he has people’s lives literally in his hands is just despicable… he doesn’t care about anyone but himself. (I realize that this might be taken as I was calling present company:’s blogs/youtube channels/podcasts “losers”, but that is not my intention – i love this blog, and OTVIIIisGrrr8, I’ve been enjoying your podcasts. so, while plenty of people have worthwhile things to say and views on the world that are worthy of attention, if DM started a podcast or blog and WASN’T the leader of scn, nobody would have any interest in his views on anything, or maybe he’d have a few listeners just to laugh at what this napoleonic little asswipe has to say.)
Great satire as always 🙂
The author (Joe) is an incompetent idiot, spewing the right wing bullshit that he acquired when he was an employee with the FBI.
He assumes that there are core aspects of what constitutes cult leaders because he’s a fascist asshole who used to work with a fascist anti-American domestic terrorist organization (that is, the FBI.) The idiot has no idea what he’s talking about, he has no legitimate training or education in the arena of cults, all he’s got is what the fascist FBI programmed him with.
All that shit was debunked decades ago. There are *not* core aspects of what constitutes a cult leader, there are no “warning signs” and there are no enumerated lists that dictate who is and who is not a cult leader.
Here, take a look: http://holysmoke.org/report/index.htm
Well, that should be good to ruffle some feathers and stir up comments.
Funny, I read that list and it sure rang true to me and I was very closely connected to said cult leader.
I’ll say!
Hi OSD, I’ll say X I Billon. Love,Ann.
Well, I’ll respond to “Vounteer Ministers” post… I always scan through a post quickly before reading it, and all I saw in yours was: …” incompetent idiot..right wing bullshit…fascist asshole…terrorist…idiot..shit. ” actual quotes from your post, followed by a link to a site, which I don’t click on outside links without researching first, because a Scientology site tried to put malware on my computer once… so I quickly concluded you seemed to be a very angry person who spews forth anger and uses offensive profanity, and immediately disregarded your post. No chance of me reading any further. Nothing worthwhile there. Might want to think about how your words are perceived if you really want to convince someone of something. On the other hand, if you are as you seem to be, a rage-filled person who just wants to spew out offensive goobldegook to vent your feelings and make yourself feel better.. congrats! mission accomplished.
This guy reeks literally REEKS of a church of scientology employee.
Yes, they do have a certain “vibe,” don’t they.
Yep, a certain “vibe’ alright. The kind that makes you feel icky…..
Well, I’m glad you made that clear, Volunteer Minister. Even though David Miscavige has most, if not all, of the attributes listed above, since the author of the article is an “incompetent idiot” and has no idea what he’s talking about, does that mean that David Miscavige is not a “dangerous” cult leader but is just a plain and simple nut job?
🙂
I always found that life never follows the script very well.
One thing I learnt in business is that “getting the attention of the public” is the name of the game. How you do that and maintain it is anyone’s guess, but there are some rules. Get enough bucks and the use of force/domination is an available option, for a time anyway. Police organisations such as the FBI – what rules do they follow again?
Expert – a former spurt; a drip under pressure.
Wow! It sure was brave of the Volunteer Minister to expose himself (herself, whatever) to all that entheta. He (she, it) may as well exposed himself (herself, whatever) to the unknown joke as well. (http://mopu.blogspot.com/2006/10/joke-warfare-in-official-traveller.html)
That explains why the Vilani folded so quickly. 😉
Of course Hubbard also had an issue with humor.
Yes, Hubbard just couldn’t handle the “turn about is fair play” idea…
“fascists” were left wing socialists VM. Nationalistic but, socialists all the same. Just as Stalinism was left wing. Once you show your complete lack of knowledge and EDU your rant just disintegrates…
Volunteer Minister posted several weeks back that the U.S. military during the Irag war were “Christian Terrorists.” I will say no more.
Yes Pepper, say no more. I fear the men in white coats will eventually track VM down. (that’s an honest opinion and not ad hom btw)
I don’t like “comments” that just have a link to some unnamed/unclear site. I have to spend time going to them to find out what they are about and so other readers. Put a little explanation as to why you are including tghem please. Otherwise it is too much trouble and I just sent to trash….
One of the things that almost always lead to the self destruction of cult leaders is that as the cult increases in size dear leader needs competent help to manage things. But, the more competent the underling, the bigger the threat. The better people wind up being punished to kep them in line. This results in the leader being surrounded with ass-kissing sycophants who are afraid to tell him what he needs to know. Scientology is a classic example, useless buildings, wasted resources and I doubt COB’s underlings have the nerve to inform them of any of this.
Good points, Fred.
+1! Excellent post!
Pope Dave has taken points 9 and 10 and inverted them to an extreme. So you just KNOW that he has stuff going on in that area that is being carefully hidden. The other 48 points are dead on.
Thanks Dan, your comment got me thinking. DM looked me square in the eyes and asked me if I knew that GL and MY “f_cked each other in the ass last night?” I said, “No sir.” He said, “Well they did…”(turning to GL and MY) DIDN’T YOU? ADMIT IT! YOU F_CKED EACH OTHER IN THE ASS LAST NIGHT.” Etc. This went on for maybe 5 minutes. GL and MY were both silent the whole time.
It is also true that DM has broken up nearly every marriage on the Int base — either personally, or through his devious enforcers or his devious sycophants. Including the marriages of both GL and MY some years before.
We also knows DM took great pleasure in watching confessions from people like Tom Cruise. DM gets off on stopping people from having sex, having families, having children. Basically he likes killing the 2D urge (sex and family) in individuals.
He also loves to force 2D-related confessions from people and get off their withholds. I remember him briefing the whole Int base on what was coming up in MY’s sec checking saying that “this next one was totally pornographic.” Yeah. Well, the correct auditor response would be, “Do you have a similar withhold of your own?” Ditto on him telling me that GL and MY “f_cked each other in the ass last night.” “So Dave, let me just check a question here. Do you have a similar withhold of your own? That rock slams.” I think DM gets his jollies by wrecking the everything to do with the second dynamic across his entire third dynamic.
I understand from various OT VIIs that Flag’s “six months checks” were all about picking apart their sexual issues. Once I asked a public Scientologist who was a scriptwriter if he’d like to write film scripts for Gold. I don’t remember his name. And in response he told me that he had put a banana in his ass once. I was like WTF does that have to do with writing scripts and why is he telling me this — someone he doesn’t even know? We were just speaking on the phone for the first time. Well, the poor guy was telling me because he had been so introverted into his sexual peccadilloes by DM’s Church of Pervertology that it stood as a barrier that would prevent him from working.
So I think DM’s perverse desires are not actually hidden — we just never understood what actually got him off. I know from ex tech staff in RTC that DM also had a severe case of SPS — small penis syndrome. This sounds funny, but was no joke. It came up in his auditing and enraged him like nothing else. So if he can’t have sex, and will never please his partner, maybe his only outlet is to also stop everyone else from having sex. In other words, he’s tripping on the power aspect. A psychopathic trait.
It’s like the old computation of so many murderers, “If I can’t have him/her nobody will.” And they promptly shoot, stab, bludgeon, burn, poison, or drown the object of their blighted affections. In Tiny Fist’s case, “If I can’t use my wiener, than no one will.” Boom. World? Meet David Miscavige.
All hail Caligula. He has returned!
Interesting to note, Caligula means “little soldier’s boot” – sort of goes along with little dick miscavige. Caligula’s end came at the hands of his own guards and senators. Maybe a similar fate awaits little dick miscavige.
Hi Thoughtful,Thank you for your articulate and compelling post.I learned a lot about David Miscavige.Love,Ann.
Hahahahahaha Ann, that was priceless. 😉
Hi Observinginsandiego,I love that you are OSD2, OSD has kept me laughing ever since I first got on this blog.Thank you for all your posts,you keep my spirit going strong!Love,Ann.
Thoughtful, thank you, this is without exaggeration the most gobsmacking intel about Miscavige I’ve ever read. I have no words.
Wow, so much of what you reveal rings true, explaining the DM syndrome, including your conclusion, the correllation on how murderers often justify themselves.
Given that, I think it is safe to assume that the public will never get to meet or hear the real David Miscavige, certainly not while his mouth is near a microphone, (unless forced by the rule of law, in a courtroom), as silent hiding proves to be his singular talent as leader.
For myself, I like to hear the candid viewpoints of everyone here and don’t believe they should be censored by Mike as to content. I feel that I can and do learn from others’ honest sharing of their experiences. Like Oracle said, we all come away with our own experiences. We own our experiences; they are what they are. How silly to hate one another because of our differing life’s experiences!
Having said that, just as I find unfailing, blind, 100% agreement perpetually accompanied by obsequious praise and slavish approval rather boring over time, so do I find perpetual, unfailing, 100% disagreement accompanied by sarcastic insults and put-downs and so forth rather boring after a while, once the shock value wears off.
Like the unfailing 100% agreement, the unfailing 100% disagreement comes across to me as unthinking automaticities.
I don’t personally believe in the possibility of someone or something being ALL good, or ALL bad. To really believe in 100% pure goodness, or 100% pure evil, to me is like operating in a kind of horrible mental trap, and its one of the reasons I’ve always avoided organized religion, and why, when it became apparent to me that Scientology was also forcing this belief on me I got out of there.
Enforced affinity, enforced reality, enforced communication, and the opposite: having to dislike, having to grant no reality, having to have no communication – I’ll sum it up in one word: BORING.
🙂
Very refreshing. Very sane. Thank you, Aquamarine.
Nice Aqua!
Aquamarine – Very good and well stated.
I had a bit of an argument the other day with an “out scientologist, now anti scientologist.” Damn good auditor she used to be too. But, it dawned on me when I was told in rather no uncertain terms, never to use scientology terms again I baulked. For heaven’s sake. I’m over 60, have done many things in my life, some of them quite dangerous and I found them very exciting nonetheless, was a member of the scio cult for over decade, ran a retail business, then indulged in the arts, made a bit of money out of it and am now retired (sort of). Body is falling to bits though.
I agree Aqua, 100% either way is ridiculous. I have discovered and now always maintain I’ll work with you but not exclusively for you. Unless the other party can agree with a fair share of beingness being traded back and forth, nothing is going to work out as it is intended.
Tyrants like miscavige are incapable of living, they can only dominate and end up in a bunker of concrete and steel anyway.
The most precious commodity in my book is an agreement maintained. It takes lots of work from both sides to maintain anything but it is where the common meeting ground should always be. Alas, it is the rarest thing in the human condition.
The word, manners, sort of covers it but often falls short, but it is a start.
Hi I Yawnalot,An excellent and timely post.Thank you,Ann.
Spot on, Aquamarine!
#52 Pathologically Vindictive:
Attacks covertly or overtly those more able and successful than himself
#53: Extreme Short Man Syndrome
#54 Explosive Anti-Immortality-Death Denial Syndrome
Yo Dave,
Since you have stated the modern definition of Second Dynamic to exclude nature, then your acting do reflect your innermost thoughts.
Keep trying and do extinguish Scientology!
My needle floated on your comment, Oracle!
This is my response to Oracle’s gem about people who “love to hate”, which is actually much further down.
Not just DM. Why does nobody dare to mention Hubbard?
#51: Bonus point: Declares he’ll start his own religion because that’s where the money is at.
Ding,Ding, Ding, You’ve won a new car
and all expenses paid trip to the Bahamas !!!!
(coffee spewing from my nose!) Still laughing! Great post, Todd!
(put us in the same foto, Surfer Dude, we’d look like twins at a birthday party!)
Thanks Mike for exposing the black heart of this monster.
Thanks Mike for your continued exposure of the crimes of this monster.
…really, he is not that big a deal, although his crimes certainly are. Truly, I hesistate to give the guy so much glorification, regardless of his lack of intergrity and/or virtues. His heart does appear to be black, but more comfortable I am pegging him as a worm rather than a monster, as the guy does eat dirt for a living, and monsters are much higher in the food chain.
Seems you could add Warren Jeffs to the list of people these traits describe. Down right terrifying.
Already there — last name on the list
What has always been obvious to me is that these very traits are why the so called “friendship” between the Punching Pontiff and his Top Gun, Tom Cruise, will implode at some point if it hasn’t already, with a level of drama far exceeding any of TC’s divorces or DM’s banishments. When you put two huge egos together on the level of conceit and deception on which this pairing is based, you get spectacular endings. It is inevitable.
The press may not get the details because of how much money will be put on keeping it quiet, but believe me it will happen if it hasn’t already.
I sure hope you are right. It makes sense what you are saying.
Interesting. I think you’re right and sometimes I wonder if it hasn’t already happened but I don’t think so since TC showed up in Bogota (I think it was) Ideal Org recently. Oh well, one can dream.
Hi Alice Graves,It is good to meet you.I have wondered the same about David Miscavige and Tom.Two impossibly gigantic egos with such delusions of grandeur.Yes Tom’s movies have made a bundle,but it is not as if he writes the scripts,directs,produces and puts up every last cent he has to,personally fund each movie.He is an action star and I do not think that much brain power is involved.Yet what you posted may yet come to pass…as McCarran so rightly said..we can but dream..Always,Ann
Hi Mike,Thank you,thank you for this eye opening list.It allows me to see David Miscavige from all angles and helps me understand more about how the cult is run since Ron’s day.I do think a fair amount on the list applied to Ron as well.He certainly was no gentleman to any of his wives and David made an example of his too.Also Ron did not treat his children any better,except Diana who just could not leave her Dad’s World.That is sad to me because she was very pretty and talented when she sang.She could have done good things but her choice to stay,belongs to her.I am so happy that you and Sara Goldberg,hope I got her name right,will be at “Going Clear”on 10/2.I am so glad to give all involved 100% support and love and light.Ann.
I’ve noticed that there isn’t a Wikipedia page for Diana Hubbard.
Why?
Hi Leslie Bates, A good question.The only thought I had was either she or someone acting for her did not want a page on her in Wikipedia.Perhaps more knowledgable bloggers can help us out with the why.Always,Ann.
Leslie, because no one has created one. You can do so if you like. It is easy to do.
Because she’s not notable enough to warrant one. If you do create one, it’ll go into WikiArb and get voted into oblivion for that reason.
Powerful list. Would seem to fit not only Miscavige, but Hubbard, too. Also arguably fits Mohammad. And two bosses I had in the past!
Amazing how many “social” and “political” groups qualify for this.
This is textbook definition of narcissist. And a malignant, dangerous one to boot. I have seen several of these in business and government jobs, they do well until the underlings band together and screw that ‘boss’ with great enthusiasm. Mr. Let Him Die gets around this ‘banding together’ problem by emulating Joe Stalin and Adolf Hitler. Not a school of management many are will to go to.
Hey Mike how about an upvote button? Several comments here really need some positive reinforcement.
You can see the narcissist behavior in this article in many places. A lot of mega church leaders exhibit such behavior, like Creflo Dollar and his 65 million dollar jet and John Oliver and the Church of the Perpetual Exemption (actually a serious joke). Donald Trump fits in this box too, hell, add Hilary Clinton and most of those currently running for President.
Hi Zemooo, Your posts always start my day off with a good feeling.I always had trouble identifying the exact traits of a narcissist,beyond gazing at themselves in mirrors all the time.David Miscavige has shown me through this blog,how dangerous and malignant(great term to describe him) he is.He is as a cobra as one astute poster said.Love,Ann.
BEsides the parts concerning sexual activity (which his impotence clearly precluded), which of these traits to you NOT think equally described L Ron Hubbard?
The rotten apple doesn’t fall far from the (full of) Crap-Apple Tree.
Hi Richelieu Jr. I like your post.Crap-apple tree is very apt for Ron and David and their “religion” Ann.
Very sobering. When I went through the list a second time I was really trying to find ONE point that didn’t fit Dave “let him die” Miscavige – I couldn’t find one – and that’s a L-O-N-G list.
Do you think COP is reading this list going: “See, this is what I am talking about. That idiot Rinder puts out a 50 point list of leadership traits – and I hit them all! If one of you CICS could manage even 5 of these beneficial qualities of leadership, I wouldn’t have to do everything myself!”
LMAO! Now that’s some funny shit! But the really scary part is, it’s all true!
Hi gtsix, Your post is so true! I can just picture after reading the list Mike posted,David screaming what you wrote! Crazy….Love,Ann.
F-ing post o’ the day gtsix!
aww, thanks. As I never in, I had to give that one a go – it was the first thing I thought of (but was a bit hesitant to use the word idiot in regards to Mike, as that is just.. idiotic).
I think I missed a few COP curse words… but this is a somewhat clean language blog. 😉
Great article. Mike are you aware of DM using people sexually?
Miscavige has problems with voyeurism. That is his thing, hidden cameras, spying. He also wallows in sadism. Yes, he uses people in these ways. And he F&%^$ people with these methods. He uses every auditor and CS in the Church to dig for intel of member’s personal sexual history, and uses that intel to harm attack and suppress and blackmail people emotionally. The auditors in the Church have been shape shifted into intelligence gatherers. Children were outlawed in the Church under his command. Women who were pregnant were tortured or kicked out onto the streets. He targets unborn children and convinced their own mothers to kill them. Yes, he uses people sexually.
Hi The Oracle,Thank you,a powerful post.Yes to all you wrote.And my personal opinion is that some of this goes way back in Ron’s past too.His true opinion of women was not what one might think at first.At times I saw flashes of his frustration with the female sex come out.He just wanted everyone males and females to worship him and his “works”.I do not doubt David Miscavige feels the same about his position as head of the cult.Plus David worships money as his god or devil!Always Love,Ann
So what’s changed?
Didn’t LRH himself use all of those techniques too?
You hit us between the eyes with the truth, Oracle, as usual. Thanks for your post.
Fits the Demented Midget to a ‘T’! And now that I think about it, perhaps Donald Trump should give up politics and start a religion.
The Church of Trump! He’s comes out to wide applause and then says, “I’m really REALLY rich! I’m HUGE all over the world! Everyone loves me! The Chinese! The Mexicans! The middle east can’t get enough of me! I’m the greatest in the world! I’ll be the greatest president the world has EVER seen! I’ll build a wall to keep immigrants out! AND, I’ll make Mexico PAY for it! That’s how powerful I am!”
Someone should send the list to him…..
Very accurate.
While reading the list I remember many instances where the scn ‘leader’ manifested the above traits specially the constant and sickening need for admiration.
Unfortunately for others they have taken some of those traits too, whereas before they were sane and honest people.
The one that is way off the mark is Tom C with his “leader of leaders” blah, blah. But even if Tom reads the above article he would not see it, the damage is done.
I don’t think there is any doubt that Miscavige is a dangerous leader of a cult of people who are being increasingly injured by him. As the membership dwindles, Miscavige has demonstrated an increased need for validation and praise. That is why he has hauled out the dusty, 22 year old video of him announcing scientology’s tax exemption. His growing rage about the increasing public recognition of his insanity is palpable; the crazy press releases prove it. The problem is getting congress, and law enforcement to recognize the Miscavige danger. What happened when Jim Jones and David Koresh were cornered and their failures shoved in their faces? The jury is still out as to how Miscavige will react when the final shoe drops and he recognizes what a failure he is. I hope that he doesn’t go the Jones/Koresh route, but I can’t be sure he won’t.
Still on your side, You are saying exactly what I’ve been thinking since I read Mike’s list of traits. I personally, don’t necessarily believe that DM’s main lust is for money. I think it’s for power and money is just one form of power for him. If one were to believe the above list, (and I do) then the moment he loses his adoring and or cowed public/staff, then he would probably not want to go on. I don’t see him crawling off in obscurity with a huge amount of money. We all know of his penchant for rage. I see him raging at the end. What that means, I can’t really say. I just don’t see him going out with a whimper. He hasn’t the capacity to truly care about anyone. So, what would stop him from taking out anyone, including himself, that has the misfortune to still be around when he has nothing that means anything to him left?
I 100% agree with you.
I have often said that the ability to get people to do things against their own best interests is the power that sociopaths lust after. And one of the best ways to measure that is if you can get people to hand over money when it is not in their best interest to do so. It’s the perfect “stat.”
> 9. Takes sexual advantage of members of his sect or cult.
> 10. Sex is a requirement with adults and sub adults as part of a ritual or rite.
How much do these apply to COB? I’m sure he has a main squeeze in the absense of his banished wife, but of all the awful things one hears about DM, taking sexual advantage of others or being involved in wierd sex rites isn’t one of them.
Has something been under-reported?
Over the top recruiting young girls for Tom Cruise
using tax free church money. If they don’t make the
cut and talk they are digging holes at night at Flag.
Nobody gets a perfect score, but 48 out of 50 is 96% a high “A” in Narcissistic Psychopathy
While there may or may not be “takes sexual advantage”,or sex as part of a ritual, there is certainly plenty of evidence to support how pervertedly obsessed Miscavige is with the subject of sex…it comes across in his foul, foul language, instances of accusing others of being homosexual or derogatorily talking about the subject, putting Debbie in the trash can with a lesbian sign, etc.
I think that Tiny Fists obsession with the sexual content of the PC folders of others is a vicarious version of this trait. Not only Miscavige’s obsession with knowing what TC said in his confessional, but using those private, confessions to degrade TC when ‘joking’ with COBs underlings.
The article didn’t say that the person had to manifest every trait, just a preponderance of them. And as has been said, both the Toxic Dwarf and L. Fraud manifest most of these traits.
Yes. If there is any sex-gossip, I want to hear it.
Sex Gossip, Easy – join staff !
Hi Jose Chung, Thank you.And if you join Sea Org you can entertain yourself with Sex Gossip for one billion years! Unlike sex gossip in the un-Scientology world where one can take it or leave it,in my SO day any sex gossip or gossip,was like the old game of telephone.Repeat stuff often enough to a small fanatical group and eventually each repeating changes the original gossip.When the only books allowed to be read were Ron’s except Adele Davis and Big League Sales did I hate that book! Word cleared it so many times!,gossip of any type sex or otherwise was a form of entertainment.Sad to say…so happy I am out.
No, Miscavige’s enforcement in relation to sex is to enforce no sex on others as much as he can. As to whether he actually ever has sex himself with Lou or anyone, that is too scary to even think about, but no knowledge one way or the other.
I never heard anything on the subject.
I think digging for dirt in the private lives of Church members, video taping it illegally, watching it covertly while sipping scotch, reading reports about it from PC folders, storing the dirt like you have a tool now over someone, especially when they don’t even know they were being recorded, is akin to rape. This IS taking sexual advantage of people. Yes, it is.
Hi The Oracle, Oh my brilliant post.Goes along the lines of what I have felt recently exactly as you wrote.Always love U,Ann.
Oracle said, “…reading reports about it from PC folders, storing the dirt like you have a tool now over someone, especially when they don’t even know they were being recorded, is akin to rape. This IS taking sexual advantage of people. Yes, it is.” It is not only rape but it’s the equivalent of giving the pc a Rohipnal Mickey in their drink and then raping them while they are unconscious. So yes, he fits that trait of sexually obsessed and perverted and harmful. Check.
Straight to the bone, just as you said.
Yes, Mike, thank you for all you are doing to expose who this “man” really is.
Yep, two out of two leaders of Scientology fit that bill.
Coincidence? I say not.
(fascinating data Mike. Thanks for the lesson)
Also sounds like Hubbard (not the PR image of Hubbard).
That’s blasphemy!!! 🙂
My thoughts exactly! I don’t/didn’t know either Hubbard or Miscavage, but Hubbard started this farce and has most of the listed traits–including participation in sexual rituals for ‘religious’ pupose. Miscavage followed in Hubbards footsteps and may have not become the monster he has become without having a master narcissist for a role model. He filled the pathological shoes of his pathological predecessor.
This really is the “Punching Pontiff”
50 truths, more will added.
What Jim Jones did for Kool – aid
Miscavige has made it immortal.
” 33. The word “I” dominates his conversations. He is oblivious to how often he references himself.”
Mike, thank you for your work bringing this guy to public understanding. Thank you. You have nearly made up for your part in it. Signed – underling
OMG I love how you manage to hit the nail with you hammer.
Joe Navarro has some great books on detecting lies and reading people.
With David Miscavage, I’d assume unless he’s texting YSCOHB or LHM, he’s always lying.
Yet everybody knows this…..and absolutely nothing has been done about it.
All those mentioned cults did not last 40 years. The CIA could take him out in two minutes…..What does this man possess, the other ones did not?
Gary, the personality traits are not illegal. Those other cults were not run as cleverly is all. This one amassed more money and employed better atty’s. BUT, it IS fast disappearing.
The other cults all had a ‘doomsday’ prophesy and/or were violating laws very publicly – Jeffs was trafficking young girls up from Mexico and down from Utah to be married off to middle aged men, a few of the cult leaders (jones, heaven’s gate) killed themselves and their followers before authorities could respond, etc. Scientology also has a lot of money, never underestimate how money can influence policy/police/lawmakers. COS has shown its not afraid to sue anyone and everyone. There is amazing work being done here and elsewhere exposing the abuses in Scientology, but I think change only comes from within the church, it’s nothing the government is going to step in and investigate, aside from the possibility of revoking the tax exemption. You would think they would investigate the child forced labor within the sea org but that doesn’t seem to be of interest since the FBI stopped their investigation. Maybe Mike has an update on other investigations.
Oops and hi everyone, I’ve been lurking for a year or so, love reading everyone’s posts. 😉
Hi Observingsandiego,Welcome and good to meet you.I learn so much here too.I only jumped on the blog with Mike’s help to give me that push,around Dec-Jan15.And besides learning a lot I feel I have forged unbreakable bonds here.Whatever may happen with me or wherever my path will take me,I can never forget the love and support found here.I do read all posts and hope to continue doing so.Love, Ann.
Nice to meet you too Ann, you are always so welcoming and fair to everyone here. I enjoy reading your perspective each day and hope you are feeling well today! 😉
Hi Observingsandiego, Thank you so very much.I am doing quite well today.I’ll let you know when I gather my canes and need help crossing the street.T.J. volunteered,brave spirit ,to help me with that. Thank you honestly all good thoughts are gold to me.Look forward to more of your posts.Love,Ann.
Welcome to our other world, OSD! Oh, wait…we’ll get confused. That won’t work because of my name, Old Surfer Dude (aka OSD).Welcome to our other world, Observingsandiego!
it’s an interesting, informative, fun place to bag on the cult! And…don’t worry…you’ll be a pro in no time…
Hahahahaha! I love reading your posts, it didn’t even occur to me that the acronym is the same. You are the one and only OSD! Thank you for the welcome! 😉
The pleasure is not all mine. It’s all of our pleasure to have you here! Welcome aboard!
Hey, Observingsandeigo, you could be OSD2!
Haha how about little OSD, I’m in ca after all and I think I’m younger, minus the dude, but I have been know to attempt to catch some waves lol. Oh, and my husband is a drummer and so was my stepfather… I hear you are quite the musician. See little OSD is fitting. Haha! 😉
HimIDD,XO to you.Loved your post Ann.
Hi OSD, My I Pad just got IPfed,I meant OSD above,Ann.
I think one of the key factors in the ability of Scientology to survive to this day is the apparent absence from both Hubbard and Miscavige of the sexual abuse traits. That is the third rail for cults, and Scientology has been mostly able to skirt it.
Very interesting hgc10. Although Hubbard liked to surround himself with pretty, underage girls I don’t think that he did anything illegal. Yes, I think you are right.
Very true. And has been the scandal that has brought down many cult leaders. In Davy’s case he just got rid of the offending wife and makes the mistress his assistant.
Hi BKmole,Good to meet you.You said it with your post! Thank you.Ann.
More…
Runs a mercurial rules regime, where violations are impossible to predict and punishments are inconsistently applied, to the extent that the meting out of punishment is strictly for the pleasure of the leader and has no actual connection to the enforcement of standards.
Oh my god, this is a punch right in his face. This one could cave him right in, if he looks at it just right. I actually feel a little sorry for the guy right now.
It’s not so much a punch in his face as facing the truth — something scientology is uncomforable with.
I have 2 corollaries for “42. Works the least but demands the most.”
42a. Complains that because of the incompetence of all others, he, in the end, has to do all the work in order for anything to be done right.
42b. Claims credit for all achievements, and ensures that underlings’ scripts credit him personally.
42c. Constantly interferes with the the work of his underlings, ensuring that they cannot complete their assignments to his satisfaction.
Hubbard also manifested this behavior.
3 corollaries
And a fanatical devotion to the pope. Four corollaries.
And his main weapon is surprise. Now, get out the comfy cushions!
What an accurate laundry list of crazy traits….fits Lil Davey to a T….
Sounds exactly like someone I’ve been reading about for the last year or so…….
I love the leader: http://youtu.be/1aYN5XpWzpM
Dave,
How is that popehood working out for you?
COB had a dream last night in which over one million people showed up in the new David Miscavige square in Clearwater. The square had been made by bulldozing City Hall and a large number of WOG buildings. He entered on the papal motorbike with a great entourage of Xenu’s Thetans Motor Bike Gang and darkened security limousines. Unfortunately his teleprompter wasn’t working and the papers he always walks in with were actually his list of who was still in the new enlarge hole built underground. He was unable to Shermanspeak and even worse there was a guy in white at his podium who told him to bugger off as he had booked the square for a mass audience. Dave awoke abruptly to find the scotch bottle empty and reruns of his arch rival Pope Frances offering words of love to a huge audience on the TV Davie Boy uses to lull himself into a sleepy stupour every night.
The difference between Pope Francis & DAVID “LET HIM DIE – PROVABLE BULLSHIT” MISCAVIGE is the difference between light and day. They are complete opposites. They are light years apart.
Hey little runt! Why don’t you do interviews anymore? Is it because your an abject cowered? Oh wait, I know why. Because any journalist would shred you to pieces. You’re nothing but a scared little runt hoping no one ever exposes you and all of your crimes. “Pathetic” describes you best.
Spot on, Mike. Got a chill; my (ex) cult leader is mentioned in the article. Thankfully, I rocketed out of there before they could damage me further. Powerful article!
I don’t think we’re talking about the Dalai Lama here…
Hi Ms. B Haven, Good to see you again.Great post and I would add a hearty no we are not talking Dalai Lama,more like someone who has tons of money and zero anything else.Love,Ann.
Yes, Yes, Yes! I would think this also applies to DM’s friend Tom Cruise.
No, that is not correct.
Well at least we know that Tom Cruise is a KNOWING facilitator of evil. I don’t know what other traits he has.
Most do apply as well to elrong.
Some no, and yet, we’re not certain, since we did not see most of his own activities either!
r
I think most apply to you.
More attacks? Like I said, take a deep breath. You don’t know this man….
+1. We don’t need any enmity here. Why? Because it’s not fun! We need to keep it fun so it works for everyone.
Not just Miscavige.
Dead Hubbard, too.
I fail to see the redeeming social merit.
Miscavige has invested hundreds of millions to establish that Miscavige IS the Co$, that the Co$ IS Scientology, and that Scientology IS L. Ron Hubbard; therefore, Miscavige is equal to L. Ron Hubbard. The same thing.
You, by equating L. Ron Hubbard with Miscavige, are furthering Miscavige’s line. Are you bright enough to see that?
By the way – you never state what you believe in, but I can tell you categorically, you are sorely mistaken. The problem I see with you and people like you, is that there is nothing to criticize, because there is nothing there, period. How can one criticize an insult, other than calling it an insult? Do you think it wise to insult others? Is that what you believe in? How do I return the insult? Am I supposed to sit around and think up a snide remark, then cloak it in “helpfulness”?
Damn blog is becoming a forum for insulting L. Ron Hubbard. Mike- you ought to go check your purposes as you stated them, and you really ought to do some moderating here.
If anyone wants to post “Affinity is a fiction, and bears no relationship to real life, and so the ARC triangle is without foundation,” well, that’s an argument. And that is freedom of speech. But posting a categorical insult by implication only serves to undermine others observations and cannot be refuted. “You are shit”, for example, has no logical refutation, and has no place on a blog.
If you are tired of this blog, then close it. Simple.
If you do not want comments other than those who oppose Scientology, then call it an anit-Scn comments section, and stop pretending some high-flung First Amendment right.
Take a deep breath Nickname.
I suspect you are the one who is tired of this blog…
Funny how you claim Len Zinberg is posting a categorical insult by saying this list applies to Hubbard? Really? That is an “insult”?
And you then say he is not “bright enough” to see that he is equating L. Ron Hubbard with Miscavige?
That is a personal insult. You are simply name-calling.
If you feel it’s an incorrect conclusion then respond to the point, don’t go on a rant about how everyone else is not too bright and I am “failing” to “moderate the comments” and “am just tired of this blog” and ordering me to “stop pretending some huigh-flung First Amendment right” — I actually DO think the right to freedom of speech is a VERY IMPORTANT right. Sorry to disappoint you so. You might do well to remember the importance of this right too.
Boom!!
Ka-pow!
To me Mike, Lens comment and comments like them are simply offensive comments for someone who thinks the tech works and admires what Ron has done, it would be like someone having a go at my father for instance, so I think a little understanding for an angry rebuttal, would go a long way on your part, instead of your own little group of sychophants taking your lead, smelling a little blood and moving in for the kill.
There do seem to be more and more comments similar to Lens finding their way onto your blog, including some of your own. So if this blog is going down the line of being anti Hubbard, the decent thing to do would be to be open about this yourself and choose a side.
You and Nickname are similar in your thoughts. I post here EVERY day and make my views VERY publicly known. And you think I should do the “decent thing” and announce that I “choose a side.”
OK, here we go:
I choose the side of truth. And I do my best to make that truth known whether it offends people or not. Do you know that there are a few thousand people living within 10 miles of me who all firmly believe I would be doing the decent thing and performing a service to the planet, no universe, if I put a bullet in my head? They would smile knowingly and happily with the relief that one more SP met his just end.
Similarly, there are people all over the world who are convinced I have dark secrets about what I did to them that I have never disclosed and that I will never be decent and always be evil for having been a scientologist and a senior SO member.
You are another harmonic of this. You think I am somehow doing something wrong and expect me to change to what you want because you consider it would be the decent thing for me to do.
I guess I just ain’t decent.
I choose the side of truth as well, Mike, and I am grateful for what you do.
Sometimes the truth is ugly, but always preferable.
Thank you for not being “decent”. 🙂
Hi Mona, Good to meet you.Yes I am so glad Mike is not”decent” and frankly with what I went through I am not” decent”either at times.I want to shine a laser light on the abuses of cos etc but I do not wish to crush good Indies who really want to help those that want help.I just do not care for personal attacks etc.I had those in spades and it is not fun in the least.As I posted before, The Sea Org is like a siren song sucks one in and then the titanium doors snap shut.Always,Ann.
Dear Mike,
We love you and would not like to see you put a bullet in your head. We also love that you have this forum and that we are lucky enough to read your views each day. We appreciate the work that goes into this blog and feel you are a very decent fellow.
Sincerely,
The outside world
🙂
Hi Mike,,Please no bullets to your head! We need you and your considerable skill and talent in this endeavor to shine that laser light on the cult of Scientology.Not only have you been there and done that you are incredibly amazing with words and your posts each day,besides what would I do without that wonderful dry sense of humor? I will say it again ,you are a hero do not ever forget that.Love and you know….Ann.
Well, I for one, love your “un-decency” a lot. Wouldn’t have it any other way.
TC
Nice use of positioning me on the side of people who want you to kill yourself Mike. But that is not what I asked for. Ok, I will ask it in another way. On the gradient scale of anti-Hubbard 0 to pro Hubbard 10, where do you think you would be? If you dont want to answer it, thats fine, its just a simple question!
In the middle. Or whatever the facts dictate. Depends on the subject being discussed. Talk about disconnection and money and I am anti-Hubbard. Talk about assembling a lot of knowledge from a lot of sources and developing helpful methods to relieve problems, I am pr0 Hubbard. And there are a million shade of gray… Too much black and white leaves you colorblind.
Penny,
I write with much respect and admiration for you. We are old chummies.
Comments made about Hubbard, are not directed toward Hubbard. As he is not here or reading this blog as far as I know. So first of all, his feelings are not getting hurt. They may be made without regard to your feelings, or someone else’s feelings. Without regard to his children or grandchildren.
I do not think Mike has chosen any side or feels the need to choose any side. Not sure he is in a condition of doubt. I think not. I have never seen him as anti anything except false reports and injustice .
I find it very interesting that Mike makes a post about Miscavige and some people think of Hubbard. Or swing to Hubbard.
But I neither inherited Hubbard’s friends, or his enemies. That was not my legacy, it was his. If someone feels more comfortable thinking about a dead man than a live one, it is what it is. As a habit I do not besmirch the dead. It’s like they have left the room already. If it isn’t warm with a heart beat it is not a problem for me.
I know it considered disrespectful to speak of the dead. Especially when they are not able to defend themselves. But they really don’t have to do they? They lived and died and paid to play in their own way.
There is someone posting on the Internet the last few years, that is quite violent about Hubbard. I knew this person myself at one time, nobody else does, that I know of. This person’s nick name back in the day in a certain circle, was “The M.P.” “Here comes the M.P.” someone would whisper. M.P. is short for Military Personnel. But in his case, it was short for “menacing particle”. Because he could sit down next to anyone, sniff out their weak spots and buttons, and have them totally keyed in, with in thirty minutes.
He would dig around in gossip circles for P.C. folder data. Throw it up in their face or confront them about it out of session. He was a real bully. And he always targeted people who were not in a position to fight back. He was really sadistic. Now he has a little following of mutual haters towards Hubbard.. These people do not have a clue about this guy or how his social intercourse was back in the day. He tried to unmock EVERYBODY!
There is another guy posting on the net, who poses as a worshiper of Hubbard. And claims to be loyalist with standard tech, that is the biggest squirrel out here and has ripped people off from coast to coast.
You really can’t assume you know people by what they post on the net. Unless it is someone like Mike Rinder who always has his cards on the table. And has always been an open book.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-m7OlFajiw
I find that I myself do have something negative to say about Scientologists in general, that I think is a valid point. The amnesia. The Thursday at 2:00 memory swipe. Because after Mike has spent all of those decades in service to others, after he has been on the front lines out here for years, which made it safe for Independent Scientology to even function, I think he deserves a lot more credit than he is getting right now. And I saw this happen with Marty. The math gets scrambled very quickly with Scientologists and they can turn on someone in a heart beat with total memory loss of their gains, rewards and friends. And yes, that is a little spooky.
People ranting on the Internet about the Church and Scientology and Hubbard is an indication of how much communication was actually suppressed over there.
Mike is opening the flood gates. He has set up a platform for people to be real. Marty did the same thing. How did it help anyone to suppress this animosity and bypassed charged for decades? It did not. Mike, neither Marty, created the bypassed charge. It was THERE and it was created by other people. Just because people can FINALLY vent, does not mean Mike or Marty or anyone else put them out ruds!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yet people target Mike and Marty for letting other people vent! Well, they are NOT running a “can’t have” on communication! They are not suppressing people! Believe it or not, you do not have to suppress other people to survive.
SOME people do not want to suppress other people to survive! That is their prerogative.
Well said and well read…
What if the Word, in its entirety, of the original supreme creator was:
to be happy.
That would make Happiness the yardstick by which to measure Ethics.
-being as god’s command and all, which sounds far more plausibe as a workable belief-system than anything i’ve heard so far. I also enjoy the simplicity of it
– certainly willing to discard the Scn definition, especially since “getting your Ethics [installed]”, as according to that belief-system, typically involves so much misery and/or suffering and self-degradation.
Now, I would like to step down and allow Nick to say something?…
Mike –
I’m not tired of the blog as much as I am tired of the insults to LRH. (Pretty easy to comprehend.)
I thought / think / consider / opine that your article today was / is superb. But just trying to read some comments before posting mine, I ran into two entirely gratuitous insults to LRH. It is an insult to me, because the blatant implication is that all of my own observations, my reasoning, my deductions and conclusions, are nothing more than my delusion. So, I got trolled. Why post hatred? Why post trolls? Oracle characterized it as hatred. If there is no right, and no wrong, then hatred is as good as love, malice is as good as charity. Is that what you believe? When reason is rejected in favor of agreements, all you have is a mob.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech
[From the article:] “The term “offense principle” is also used[1] to expand the range of free speech limitations to prohibit forms of expression where they are considered offensive to society, special interest groups or individuals. For example, freedom of speech is limited in many jurisdictions to widely differing degrees by religious legal systems, religious offense or incitement to ethnic or racial hatred laws.”
I believe in freedom of speech too, and that includes the right to speak out against trolls and call for moderation (heeded or not) of those who post hatred for hatred’s sake because “it’s cool”. If someone has some factual or argumentative problem with Scientology, such as: “Reality, being entirely subjective, has no bearing on life, and nothing can be proven either right or wrong; therefore, all of Scientology is completely fraudulent, based on a fraudulent assumption that reality is relevant; when in fact, there are no facts, Scientology presumes facts, and that’s fraud”, then fine. That is, it appears to me, an exercise of free speech. It’s patently ridiculous, but it is an argument which can be argued against, or explained, or helped. But when someone continues to repeat it, knowingly offending, I think there’s some question as to whether that is free speech or merely being an ass on purpose.
Most of my serious posts have had to do with Ethics. I advocate ethics. I distinguish between Universal Ethics and personal ethics. I believe life is about ethics, and that these are definable. I post that subject because it seems to me that those who have had substantial involvement with the church have suffered needlessly solely for the lack of definition of ethics. I propose solutions. This is relevant. This is positive. This is also is contrast to those who post one-liners insulting LRH. I do not dictate your decisions, but I think you must make a choice about whom you prefer to post on your blog.
I never really had anything much to do with the church, to begin with. I have had a lot do with Scientology. I posted because I thought I might be able to contribute something positive, and help someone. Maybe I should try again to restrain myself from reading and posting, because there are people who post here whom I find incredibly stupid and immeasurably offensive. I think I just broke a key …. Maybe I’ll just buy a piano, and let the trolls be damned.
The call on free speech (what is, or isn’t) evidently has to do with an evaluation of goals and purposes and desired ideal scenes. What are those, when someone’s speech is considered? How do those interfere with the goals and ideal scenes of others? That’s all ethics, and it is all admin scales. I have yet to see anyone here take me up on that. Careful consideration of the admin scale for each individual communication, and keeping track of many such admin scales for the varied communication cycles we all engage in is extremely instructive, especially, perhaps, when one begins considering the admin scales for the communications of others.
Shalom.
Sorry, this is way too complicated for me. I like things more simple. In my world, people are allowed to express their views and opinions. It’s a pretty broad concept. I think you can learn from even the most ardent proponent of the “other side” and as long as they remain relatively civil, I think it is healthy.
I think you must make a choice about whom you prefer to post on your blog.
Yep, and there you have it. Whom I prefer to post on my blog in a nutshell.
That you find someone else incredibly stupid and immeasurably offensive is sort of sad and amusing and pitiful all at once. And because YOU find them to be that way, you think I should not allow them to post comments. And I am sure ther eare people that have a similar view of you — though interestingly, not a one of them has ever complained or told me I should not let you post?
I think whatever all your discussion about “ethics” is, you have got something fundamentally haywire in the conclusions you draw.
Sorry, just not my way of looking at things.
Nickname, if I may, I’d just like to say that I often read your posts here each day, and I welcome your viewpoint. You have to let the LRH comments that bother you roll off your back and not feel personally attacked. Other people feel just as strongly as you do about LRH – positively and negatively. Neither view is wrong. If I may, sometimes your posts read as on the defensive rather than just stating your views. It’s my understanding and belief that a lot of people reading and commenting have been personally hurt by the church and by LRH – that’s their experience and they feel strongly about it, as you do about your beliefs. I think all everyone is asking for is just to try to express your opinions (which I’m always very interested to read) in a less confrontational way, so that there can be a discussion, rather than a fight. There are other people in the wrong as well, but if you are already feeling attacked before you even post something – maybe try to take a minute and separate that. Others are dealing with a lot of hurt and confusion, you never know where anyone is coming from. And none of it is personal until it becomes an attack on you. I hope you keep posting and can move past feeling attacked when LRH is mentioned in comments.
Observingsandiego says: “You have to let the LRH comments that bother you roll off your back and not feel personally attacked. Other people feel just as strongly as you do about LRH – positively and negatively.”
What I get from Nickname’s posts is that he is objecting to “Audience Based Fallacies- arguments which direct an audience’s attention away from the central argument.” Here are a couple from a list of this type of argument:
1. Ad Hominem- an irrelevant attack on an individual or source of an argument instead of responding to substantial issues raised in the argument
2. Ad Populum- when the substance of an argument is avoided and an individual instead appeals to popular opinion as the justification of a claim
http://speakingcenter.uncg.edu/resources/tipsheets/argumentation/audiencebasedfallacies.pdf
.
Another logical fallacy that can be Audience based is “Appeal to Emotion”:
“Appeal to emotion…is a logical fallacy characterized by the manipulation of the recipient’s [and viewers’ or listeners’] emotions in order to win an argument, especially in the absence of factual evidence.” (from Wikipedia article on “Appeal to Emotion”)
Really Marildi ? “Audience Based Fallacies” ? Come on, you can do better than that, don’t let me down. :-)))
KSW supporters feel totally offended, most of them at least, by ANY statement criticizing LRH no matter how well presented and backed-up by objective evidence those statements might be. Your “Audience Based Fallacies” argument seems like a weak attempt to deny any wrongfulness from LRH. It is directed at re-defining terms and the wise use of rethoric as a “PR by re-definition of words” mechanism. It doesn’t work with me. Don’t forget, I know almost everything about the Tech and Admin.
Best regards,
TC
TC, your comment is a good example of Ad Hominem, Ad Populum, and Appeal to Emotion (of the recipient [and viewers or listeners]) – all in one!
Good job – you outdid yourself. 🙂
Gee, Marildi ; you used to have a thicker skin , what the hell happened ?Ran out of valid arguments ? Always the eternal Q&A , ah ?
TC
Gee, TC, when did you become so non-sequitur?
That’s much better ; I like girls who can fight back. :-)))
TC
That sounds a bit patronizing, don’tcha think? Next thing I know you’ll be telling me not to bother my pretty little head about anyg serious matters. 😛
But it’s better than being arrogant and full of yourself. 🙂
“That sounds a bit patronizing, don’tcha think? Next thing I know you’ll be telling me not to bother my pretty little head about anyg serious matters. 😛
But it’s better than being arrogant and full of yourself. 🙂 ”
That’s my girl. :-)))
😀
Hi TC, You are another one of my heroes.Keep on shining that light! Love Always,Ann.
Thanks dear, and you are my heroine !!!
Love,
Peter
Hi Theta Clear, You are strong and sweet and powerful all in one! Thank you so for your comment.I wanted to say your Princess is a ray of pure sunlight.Bless her heart,Forever,Ann.
Thanks dear ; you are so sweet. :-)))
TC
I think though it’s less about a single or group attack, it’s just people expressing how they feel about LRH- and there are many people who gave most of or their entire adult lives to him and his vision that post on these threads. Both viewpoints should be respected. Even a never in has the right to express delight or disgust with LRH – it’s not an attack.
Observingsandiego, it may be true that all viewpoints should be respected. However, that isn’t even the point.
I’ll make an analogy. Let’s say the whole neighborhood had been invited to write something on a particular wall, as a mutual sharing of ideas on a particular subject. Some wrote sensible things, some wrote inspiring things, some wrote aesthetic things – some even wrote messages of warning, which was perfectly acceptable. But others wrote unpleasant things, just to “vent,” and repeated these things over and over, all over the wall. After a while, it started to become unpleasant to view the wall. Simple as that.
Wow! , that was a VERY smart, balanced, applicable, useful , logical, kind, and wise comment, dear Observingsandiego.
Best regards ,
TC
*blushing* TC. Thank you.
:-)))
You are most welcome, Observingsandiego.
TC
TC my above comment was directed at Marildi and not at your post (regarding LRH). Well said in your response on same subject.
” TC my above comment was directed at Marildi and not at your post (regarding LRH).”
Yes, I knew that ; thanks. And thanks for the validation.
TC
Nickname, right and wrong are relative. So is ethics. Most Catholics would think us all sinners for even exploring Scientology. Especially those who worshiped a “false prophet”.
Did you ever think about the fact that your overts and with holds are relative to where you are getting the sec check?
Can you imagine the reads you would get if you tucked a Scientologist into a Catholic Church? “Have you broken any of the commandments?” Boom!
So right and wrong are relative. You can punish someone for an out 2d, if they jump off a roof from a broken heart what the hell?
Is it right to ignore the disenfranchised? As if they do not matter? Can you walk out of the Church of Scientology blind with your own wins? I think not. If you are going to own that, you have to own what it cost others and how it left them.
Because every win there comes at someone else’s expense and yours! If you do not confront that, you can not own your own glory. Scientology is not a one night stand. Some people got f&^*$%d over and I have to own that to believe in my own gains. If I discount any part of it, I risk discounting all of it. And that is not something I am likely to do. I am not one to empty my pockets.
The Church of Scientology has made more enemies than friends. That is today’s reality. Maybe you didn’t make enemies for the Church, but if you are going to stand by Hubbard all the way, you need to own this situation. That is real loyalty. Not applauding meaningless words of praise and worship.
P.S. It seems to me like people could be a little more appreciative of Marty and Mike taking on the entire ARCXen field out here. It is a high crime to have an ARCXen field in Scientology. and that is all Miscavige has created! Marty and Mike take these people on and carry this burden. Try to smooth things out with the truth. Some of them are even planted here by the Church!
If you believe so much in Scientology, pick up some of this burden of the ARCXen field and try to help them. Don’t slap them down like the Church does. At least let them rant with out suppressing the hell out of them! And don’t attack Marty and Mike for permitting them to be here and communicate! You think this is fun for them? You think they were not set up for losses themselves? They have not made ANYONE hate Scientology or Hubbard. Ever. These people were out here when they arrived.
You don’t want to hear people spew their blame on the Church and Hubbard? You don’t see Miscavige or the Sea org doing one f*^&(%g thing about this ARCXen field except issuing declares. Marty and Mike are down here carrying the burden.
Why you want to add to it I do not understand it. Reach out and have a conversation and make a friend.
One couple out here managed to make an ARCXen field in the Independent Movement!!!!!!!!!!!! “Hey hey Marty is a squirrel because he reads other books!”
If you do not want to hear about other people’s losses or BPC, audit them! Stand up and do something for crying out loud!
Tell that to the lady he threw off the Apollo.
As I stated in an earlier post, all the gratuitous and childish insults to Hubbard will simply drive any UTRs back in to the Church. Mike, you asked the trolls to curtail this and some of them agreed to do so, but I see no difference in the volume of vitriolic (and unnecessary) comments from these folks. I think Nickname has very valid points and I also think it is about time that anti-Scientology trolls realized that the subject is not going to go away even with Miscavige’s deliberate attempts at sabotage, which admittedly has been somewhat successful for the last 30 years, with empty Orgs and Academies and the “Donations Industry” which has transmogrified the subject and activity. However, I am sure for most of the people reading here that all these ad hominem attacks on Hubbard are indeed getting boring and churlish, the nature of them being at the level of the kindergarten.
As I also said, they will be, wittingly or unwittingly, doing OSA’s work for them and confirming that people who are UTR will indeed either stay so or become even more confirmed camp followers of the Miscavige gang. Now ironically, with your criticism of the Milestone 2 people as “fundamentalists”, I would think and assume that OSA won’t be saying much about the Milestone 2 website in Freedom Mag or whatever they else do, as, if and when they would become known to UTRs, and then they actually reviewed their website, would indeed prompt these UTRs to look elsewhere for their services – in the Independent field. When UTRs look here at the current blog with all of the childish and wild insults to Hubbard and the subject, they are going to run a mile, straight back into Miscavige’s welcoming and greedy arms!
Well, perhaps you should start a blog that fits what you think is needed… You can control it any way you think will work best. Bet you after a year or two, you will gain a broader view of things, but maybe not. I cannot please everyone, though I try my best not to upset anyone. But in a subject as faught with emotion as this is, that is a task that Sisyphus wouldn’t swap his rock for.
And we all know camus thinking on that subject. 😉
I believe that Mike has made his point and stance quite clear. This is his blog, with his opinions and with the content he feels comfortable and appropriate posting. He advocates truth and free speech as he has said.
I don’t think there is a blog out there that doesn’t have persons who post to the group thought exclusively or, at times, may have people post things that others find either disagreeable, insulting or whatever phraseology you want to categorize it as. Some people will agree with those posts that other’s find indefensible, while others won’t.
I think it’s fair to say the majority would like to have respectable communication even when it doesn’t match their own thoughts and feelings…but here is the kicker. That isn’t reality or life unfortunately. Life is full of emotions, dissenting opinions and full of people who want to suppress other’s thoughts and emotions (or how they express those feelings) because it is unpalatable to them personally. Well, free speech doesn’t work that way. Fortunately, one may decide not to frequent or visit a blog where they feel it doesn’t fit their belief system, values, morals or ethics. The freedom of that choice and the freedom to express are both beautiful things…just like hoping/working for better expression is a beautiful thing.
But asking or telling Mike what he ought to do or not to do on his blog, which he makes available to anyone is, IMHO, an act of telling someone how to feel or to act against their belief system, and is personally unpalatable to me, but you have the right to say them, but not the right to expect them to occur.
Some of these things many of us are strong advocates against. By all means you are entitled to express that wish…you don’t see him banning you for expressing your free speech or trying to persuade him to your opinion on his blog, but he has a valid point, I think, in stating you are free to start your own blog where you may control the dialogue in order to have the opinions or support you wish to have displayed in order to speak to the group you wish to support. He doesn’t control what people post. Some agree some don’t. That is life in its truest form.
I may be out of line here in stating the following, but it appears to me, from the cheap seats, he’s been through enough in his life of swallowing and executing someone else’s ideas and direction on how to live, express and think. This is his “house”. He has made us welcome, but I don’t think he would wish us to mandate on how to arrange his “furniture”. He’s been quite amenable in responding to those who have made such suggestions in an extremely respectful way. That alone, I believe, shows how true he is to keeping the forum open to all opinions.
Luckily, we are all free to comment on his “furniture” or leave and “furnish” our own “house” to our own standards and then decide who may come in. I, for one, am thankful for the invitation and will stay for a bit in the most respectful manner I can, and enjoy and learn from all quarters regarding the information available; deciding for myself what I will read and take to heart and what I simply read.
Thank you for the “house” Mike. I love the way it’s “furnished”.
Hi Bravebloggers, What a heart- felt and beautiful post.You made points that so resonated to me.I agree anyone may start their own blog and invite who they want to be there.Mike has allowed us to visit with him here and I for one,have enormous respect and admiration for him and all his family.Good,kind,loving spirits who are “doing something about it”.Love,Ann.
” “Now ironically, with your criticism of the Milestone 2 people as “fundamentalists”, I would think and assume that OSA won’t be saying much about the Milestone 2 website in Freedom Mag or whatever they else do, as, if and when they would become known to UTRs, and then they actually reviewed their website, would indeed prompt these UTRs to look elsewhere for their services – in the Independent field. When UTRs look here at the current blog with all of the childish and wild insults to Hubbard and the subject, they are going to run a mile, straight back into Miscavige’s welcoming and greedy arms!”
First of all, I don’t know what MS2 has ANYTHING to do with these discussion. You are not helping them in ANY way by bringing that comment up, even though I am sure you feel you did. MS2 are not messing with any other blogs any longer, and are minding their own business w/out criticizing anybody. So give it a rest. Don’t bring them up, and leave them alone ; they are doing just fine.
Secondly, why do you pretend that Mike do your work for you ? (meaning for YOU, Scientologists Indies). He isn’t here to disseminate Scn for you guys and gals. What is hilarious about Scientologists is that they always pretend that others do their damn hat for them. “HBO Doc is harmful for Scn and biased” , but no Scientologist ever approached Gibney or any other terminal that participated in the doc to attempt to include the existence of the Indie field in the doc, or at least to be interviewed after the doc by MANY reporters who were intrigued as to why Scientologists practiced Scn in the first place.
I even know of a specific (I won’t mention his name) KSW supporter who was approached by Wrigth when he was researching his book , but declined to participate. Then was publicly complaining in a known blog about the doc being biased and portraying a false image about LRH. But was did he do about that ? ABSOLUTELY nothing beyond all his whine.
Has ANY KSW ever written a book about the Indie field, and how it is different than in the CofS ? Of course not. They always expect others to do their job for them.
The truth is, dear Foolproof, that you Scientologists isolate yourselves from the “wog world” , and have been throughly indoctrinated by LRH into trusting NO reporter or Media whatsoever. You guys resent ANY criticism of LRH, no matter how unbiasedly put and how many sensible arguments are used to back-up that criticism. You guys equate ANY criticism of Scn and specially of LRH, to Missed W/Hs. You guys miserably fail to recognize how so many LRH’s policies totally violates fundamental Human Rights.
You stress a lot more the “protection” of the alleged reputation of the founder, than the well being of the many victims of LRH’s Insidiously destructive policies. You do not represent Freedom of thought, Freedom of Speech, and Freedom of Religion. You are self-righteous in the extreme when it comes to the alleged “perfection” of Scn.
You guys wrongly interpret the Freedom of Speech right as meaning “as long as what you says doesn’t offend us in any way”. How a pathetic view of something so vital for the survival of a race.
I am one of the very few, if not the only, Anti-LRH, Anti-Scn kind of guy who actually USES Scn in his life, and have been doing so , not only for decades, but for more than a life-time. Even though that I possesses no actual certificates (ONLY this life-time) , I have a better conceptual understanding of Scn than most XIIs, as I have studied most of it under a totally self-determined viewpoint , w/out the limitations of feeling fixed by strict dogmas and the alleged “standardness” of “Standard Tech”. I know all about the C/S series, about all and every C/L , about every kind of repair program possible, about every process, every procedure, every lecture in Scn.
You are not dealing here with a Theetie Weetie kind of an
Ex-scientologist here. I have thousands of hours of application of Scn to others with excellent results accumulated through a period of decades.
For each post in which I criticize LRH and many aspects of Scn I have another one where I argument in favor of Scn many workable and useful parts. Yet many timea I am labeled as a hater.
You better wake up and smell the coffee here ; learn all you can about Human Rights. Learn as much you can about the subject with good books. Study the works of Dr. King, of Gandhi -real protectors of Human Rights- then read LRH in a new unit of time and decide for yourselve whether or not he committed many crimes concerning the rights of others.
You guys won’t get ANY place as long as you don’t recognize the many crimes of LRH, the many lives that his policies destroyed. Don’t expect any respect from me for someone who obviously doesn’t give a rat’s ass about Human Rights.
My ¢2 cents, anyway.
TC
I’ve been told that, on the subject of ethics, which I’ve posted a lot about, there is something fundamentally haywire about my conclusions. The guy’s right – I’ve been writing and thinking a lot about this subject, but my actually living of it maybe is not quite caught up to my theory. And believe me, I am sorry if I come off as bombastic or arrogant or know-it-all or anything – I haven’t found the right way to get around it. Some Taoist would maybe say “You can center yourself, and your doubts will disappear.”
If people get upset by being made wrong (e.g. I know of few people who appreciate, in a welcoming sense, an insult they haven’t heard before or are otherwise surprised by), then the question would be, in order to avoid retaliation and that whole mess of escalation of emotion and conflict, “What is it in an insult that makes a being protest, or get angry, or feel offended, or whatever?” The answer must be that the rightness of the being has been challenged, and the guy knows that he is right, as (for lack of any better description I can come up with at the moment), “God made him.” Making someone wrong, insulting them, is something like kicking a car because it won’t start.
If I read Scientology correctly, all the problems we have developed over long periods of time originated from the first “Ha, ha! You’re wrong … dummy!” A misunderstanding, a Class VIII said, is at the root of it.
The question then becomes, “What do we do to fix things, and be happy?” Scientology is about “Make right.”
” The question then becomes, “What do we do to fix things, and be happy?” Scientology is about “Make right.”
But Scn is also about “I am always right about everything” , example KSW #1 and class 8 materials. The “it is all a misunderstood word at the bottom” class 8 type of assertion presupposes the infallibility of “Standard Tech” , something which is a mere authoritarian approach to knowledge and technique. I have made wonderful progress, for example, with many deviations to Standard Tech, all of which are against standard HCOBs on the subject. Most KSW supporters would not even look at those “alterations” in fear of feeling “squirreling” about it all. They fear to question their “stable” data they accumumated through years of Scn training. They are afraid to actually CREATE knowledge. They are slaves of Authority.
“What do you do to fix things and be happy ?”
Embrace Human Rights and acknowledge where and when Scn and LRH violated them. Then, you might at least gain the respect from others which is your foundation to build anything.
TC
“If I read Scientology correctly, all the problems we have developed over long periods of time originated from the first…”
Basing ones actions and personal life on ideas that are unproven and were designed by a violent psychopath is probably a BAD idea.
Just sayin’.
One of my favorite tv quotes:
“The ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife, where as the moral man actually wouldn’t.” –Ducky
Peace.
Scientology is a fraud, with a sign in front of the store that says
“We are here to rescue you.”
The whole thing is set up to trap and enslave you for the rest of days, after your pockets have been cleared, AS YOU KNOW. What is right about the families
(equal in number to the number of Scientologists) destroyed by virtue of the policy created and enforced by the founder and his [explicative] church?
Never mind the souls he impoverished financially, which again is very nearly each and every every-day Scientologist.
Give me the list of things this lousy church has done to “make things right”.
I hope you don’t start with that foresaken Ethics formula, either, because that pile is a tool to keep you knocked down and trapped wherever you happen to be on that baloney “Bridge to Total Freedom”. I think your list is done already, but after you give it some more thought, please answer me this:
Why did Hubbard take such an interest in hypnotism? What do you think happened next, when he discovered he could control a person completely?
I’ll tell you:
he then asked himself how many, how many people could he control and keep under his control. He already figured out how rich he could become, or do you still think the store-front sign was for real? Honest to god means being honest with your self, please, so perhaps there will be a future in which we don’t have to listen to your denials, which would mean you have opened your eyes enough to see what is really there. You may consider me an optimist, sir.
Hi Len Zinberg, I agree with you.Thank you.Ann.
Hi Ann B. Watson. I am responding to you here as there was not a place to respond directly above where you answered me. I am happy to meet you too, and I enjoy your posts. I agree with you about letting Indies help those who ask, and I also agree with you about having received the personal attacks and them not being fun…been there. I think I read somewhere that you were at ASHOF in late 70’s? Our paths possibly crossed. 🙂
Hi Mona, Fire up you old brain,Ann.I feel strongly our paths crossed then and will again.Thank you so much.Love,Ann.
🙂
Thank you, Ann.
Nickname, Mike did not make his post about L. Ron Hubbard.
There are people, who “love to hate”.
Sadly, because Scientologists carry such a long hate list, many of these people are attracted to the movement. So while they are involved, they hate, and when they exit they hate, they just find new targets.
How do you think Hitler commanded Germany? He tapped into people who love to hate. Why does Donald Trump suddenly have a following when he targets thousands of illegal immigrants? He tapped into people who love to hate.
There is a Mormon woman running around Utah right now, blocking the entrances to the Temples when the priests gather there for meetings, in protest of women not being allowed into the Mormon priesthood. When asked if she herself has been stopped from becoming a priest, she said she has no interest in becoming a priest. Laughter!
Mike notices outpoints and forwards valuable information. People can take that and use it anyway they want. I see this activity as part of a “noisy investigation”. Others may not.
But if someone else’s take on Hubbard is the above list, so what? That is what they took from the experience. What good does it do to run a “can’t have” on what other’s take away from their experience in this theater? Everyone was looking for something. If you don’t touch, you don’t get. People have wants and needs and reasons that may not align with yours.
Not sure any two people can actually walk out of Scientology and take away the exact same things. I personally think listing abilities gained on the grade chart is a major why. I don’t even know why people attested to these things. Only later to recant.
Perhaps we all fit somewhere on the above list to some degree. I can see how I am guilty of a few them. Definitely feel unstoppable and blessed. Have “magical” answers and solutions too.
Laughter!
Great comment, thanks Oracle.
Oracle I love reading your posts and ‘laughter’… 😉
Oracle, I’m not sure what point you were making about the Mormon woman. If anything, the fact that a policy hasn’t held her back personally, but she protests anyway, surely makes her protest more significant. Do you think we should stop people protesting over Gay Rights if we can prove they aren’t gay themselves?
Mormonism might be utterly insane, but it isn’t going anywhere, so surely a fight for gender equality isn’t an example of haters hating. If anything, the question that should be asked of her is why gender equality is an issue here, when it is rampant in all of her holy books but that hasn’t stopped her believing.
Actually Clarky, I do not think Mormonism is “utterly insane” and isn’t going anywhere.
It is the fastest growing religion on Earth with over 15 million members. I don’t know why you would be concerned for her gender rights, then attack her identity as a Mormon. The point I am making is that 15 million members support the policies of that Church and are happy with the structure. They have rights too.
By ‘isn’t going anywhere’ I mean not going away.
What do Mormons believe – name anything that is *their* belief that makes sense to you?
What rights is this woman denying 15 million Mormons?
Basically your point is that her gender equality complaint has no merit as she herself doesn’t want to use some of these rights if/when she gets them. Think that through.
The Mormons are Christians and the Mormon Church is aligned with the King James bible. The Book of Mormon is only a supplement / testimony. Plenty of what is written in the Bible makes sense to me. It is the all time best selling book for a reason.
But in fact she is a politician using the Mormons as a platform and she has no personal interest in the duties and obligations of being a priest herself. The prophet Amos, 750 B.C., was concerned with social injustice. She is just trailing slightly behind him.
Just read this essay on why Scientologists become fundamentalist fanatics. Its tangentially relevant to the opening post. Its long but IMO worth reading. It makes its points with multiple Hubbard quotes.
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthrea…l=1#post746884
” This Scientology Belief Triangle (SBT) can be expressed as:
1) Your life, everyone’s life, the world and the entire universe will fail for all eternity unless you succeed with Scientology. You will endure eternal pain and suffering, and even eventual extinction as a spiritual being UNLESS Scientology succeeds.
2) Scientology has the ONLY correct understanding of life, and the ONLY effective methods able to address and handle life. Scientology is the ONLY subject and activity capable of reversing the pain and suffering described in Belief One. ONLY Scientology possesses an effective Path to Salvation (Scientology’s “Road to Freedom”, “The Bridge”).
3) L. Ron Hubbard, the author and creator of Scientology, is incapable of error. Everything he says about anything perfectly describes that reality and the related situations. It is only necessary to understand what he says and to do it. To do otherwise is to interfere with the Path to Salvation (Scientology’s “Road to Freedom”) mentioned in Belief Two, and works to ensure the pain and suffering described in Belief One.”
Cut and paste this link works on ESMB but not here.
Post no 13 here.
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?40489-Hi/page2
There is no post by a chuck here, but possibly you deleted it. Did you mean the first post to thread I quote below? In my initial attempt to post I quoted the three main points of the essay/thesis together with some explanation of why I included it.
“Mike Rinder says
September 28, 2015 at 3:18 pm
I don’t like “comments” that just have a link to some unnamed/unclear site. I have to spend time going to them to find out what they are about and so other readers. Put a little explanation as to why you are including tghem please. Otherwise it is too much trouble and I just sent to trash….”
YEs, trying to do this on the fly. I may have trashed Chucks. I saw your second one before your first post where you included the description so my response to you was inapplicable. Sorry
Terril Park –
The basis for Scn is observable data. LRH always called on people to observe for themselves, and determine for themselves if what he wrote was true or not. The basis for the technology is about 15 years of trial and error which evolved from hypotheses into theories and into practice. I recall LRH as saying words to the effect that Scn may not be the only way, or even the best way, but it is a way, and it does work. I have observed that workability myself.
I would ask whomever wrote the elaborate article what the correct solution is, then? Does he have it? Where is he published? What evidence does he have? My questions presuppose that there is something wrong … but watching something like the movie “The Killing Fields” gives, imo, ample evidence, that there is indeed something wrong, something, many things, very wrong,and an urgent need to fix those.
You somehow conflate a cult leader with a body of beliefs or knowledge or information. Don’t be so quick to jump to conclusions. Because Warren Jeffs is a cult leader doesn’t mean that because people decry his behavior they are decrying everying about the Mormons??
Stop being so incredibly defensive. Nobody can take away your experience or your certainty because they say something negative about Miscavige or L. Ron Hubbard. Unless those things are on shaky ground to begin with. Just be certain in your own knowledge. Don’t panic. Your beingness is not being assaulted.
Very nice.
Nickname, you say:-
“The basis for Scn is observable data. LRH always called on people to observe for themselves, and determine for themselves if what he wrote was true or not. ”
What you can observe is these things from the essay below, if you didn’t while in the church much of the below
has been commented on by this blog and many other places.
“Certain actions of the Church of Scientology are highly questionable. These are described in detail elsewhere, but briefly these include, in no specific order: high pressure sales tactics, high pressure recruitment tactics, Fair Game policy, disconnection policy, excessive PR, policy-based lying, manipulation of information (spinning facts), manipulation of viewpoints using ARC, extreme pressure exerted against members who want to leave, extreme invalidation when you want to leave, institutionalized attacks on critics, institutionalized noisy investigations to upset and silence critics, institutionalized overwhelming lawsuits used in an attempt to crush enemies, contriving phony scenarios and crimes to innocent people as a way to silence critics, and many varied psychological aspects of control.”
Yes LRH did stress observing for oneself, But he put far more effort into persuading people to think his way and do what he said. One of dozens of examples highlighted in this essay.
“We’re not playing some minor game in Scientology. It isn’t cute or something to do for lack of something better.
The whole agonized future of the planet, every man, woman and child on it, and your own destiny for the next endless trillions of years depend on what you do here and now with and in Scientology.
This is a deadly serious activity. And if we miss getting out of the trap now, we may never again have another chance.
Remember, this is our first chance to do so in all the endless trillions of years of the past.”
(HCO PL 7 February 1965 Keeping Scientology Working Series 1)
You ask what is the correct solution. I’ll just say briefly what works for me. I’ve examined almost all criticism of Miscavige, CO$ and Hubbard and find broadly that its valid. Except for this, I have found that the tech is worthwhile and beneficial when delivered in a safe environment by good people with their clients benefit as their guiding principle. And I’ve been promoting that for 15 years.
“Why Scientologists become fundamentalist fanatics…..”
Not sure any “why” could be laid down to describe an entire group of people exploring Scientology.
First of all, not every Scientologist becomes or is, a fundamentalist fanatic. So there is a lie in the heading. Neither is it true that all Buddhists don’t step on ants. That all Christians turn the other cheek. That all Jews are good with money. That all Italians are Catholic. That all soldiers are stupid. That all blondes are dumb. That all men cheat on their wives. That all Scottish people are drunkards. That all Californians are theetie wheetie. That all new Yorkers are dangerous.
I mean, if you are going to buy into this, might as well buy into the idea that all X S.O. are D.B.’s even if they are leaving because they do not want to contribute to criminality.
I think less than 1% of the Scientology population is in the Sea Org. Some MIGHT be fundamentalists, but from what I have seen most do not, or can not think with Scientology.
When you declare an entire section of society, or a culture, this certain, “thing”, this is wide spread injustice.
“I think less than 1% of the Scientology population is in the Sea Org.” At this point in time I’d say ~25-40% of scner’s (those who are actively participating) are S.O. members.
Hi TO, yes would have been better like this.
“Why SOME Scientologists become fundamentalist fanatics”
Hi The Oracle, XO I get you every time Ann.
I know. Sometimes I even miss you now Ann. 🙂
Hi The Oracle, Thank you sweetheart do not worry those who do not understand or know me 100% will find out after what was done to me I will fight with the best of them if it comes to that.Do I get discouraged yes, do I get down,yes does my heart breaks,yes,but remember you have my back and I will always love you for that.Fight on I an with you.Always, Ann.
I guess you are thinking Sea Org Members are not leaving also.
In order for your “less than 1%” statement to be true, Oracle, there would have to be less than 250 Sea Borg, if those estimates of 25000 members left are correct. Given that 200 drones were sent from Flag to LA to man the Death Star, that alone shows your estimate is far too low.
That being said, I think John’s estimate is too high. There has to be at least 2500 Sea Borg out there in order to man the positions at Flag, the Complex, the overseas Sea Org orgs, and other things like the South African Search and Destroy Mission. Again, the 25000 figure is a good middle-of-the-road estimate, so that puts the Borg at around 10%.
I think 10% can handle itself pretty well in an estimation tussle.
Espi, there are not 25,000 active scn’ers (people going on course or in session at least once per week).
There MAYBE, on the high side, 7,000 max.
O.K.. I did not know there “has to be 2500” S.O. out there.
I know the original 200 sent into PAC are not there any longer. After the initial rainfall some left, blew, got transferred and loaned out, some, to Pasadena.
CC INT is skeleton crew according to someone I know that is in and out of there to visit a relative on staff (take food and supplies).
So many people were blowing from the Int Base a friend of mine who works in law enforcement in San Bernadino County got a memo on his desk to watch out pulling people over on the that stretch of highway that runs by the Int Base because so many people were getting found out there at night escaping from the Scientology Compound.
BB reports that S.O. are being bussed up to London to staff the London Org, from St. Hill. The London Org is so empty Anon won’t picket/protest there any more.
There are thousands of Scientologists, practicing right here in the U.S., who are NOT members of the Church of Scientology or the IAS. Those somehow got excluded entirely in other people’s math. Thousands in Russia now.
So when I say 1% of the Scientology community get “fundamental” I am including the entire community whether the IAS does or not. I do not discount a person’s value just because they are not paying taxes to the IAS.
“Ron’s Org” has been making more clears than the C of S for years now. In one year they trained 11 L’s auditors. I think that was the year before last. But Terrill Park (BB) knows more about what is happening in Europe than anyone with the Freezone, Ron’s Org, and Scientology Underground Movements.
My husband has done everything on the bridge and has never been inside an Org or Mission or any Scientology building.
Hi The Oracle, The point being you know I love OSD and he and my hubby are Scots through and through so we know what we are taliking about.Ron always had this dream of Scotland but Iknow my hubby has the Blood line and I am sorry Ron you do not! Hey OSD let us hold our banner High! XO forever Ann.
Why Anne, I had no idea you were in with the Scottish tribe! I happen to be a Scottish lass myself, that cooks up a lovely Haggis!
Hi The Oracle,Yes hubby Walter is of the Duncan and McLaurin clans and he makes a mean bowl of oatmeal,which I happen to love.Off topic I know but OSD is completely in the mix as well.Ron said he liked Scotland but then he said a lot of things!Bless your Scottish heart!XO Ann.
” By the way – you never state what you believe in, but I can tell you categorically, you are sorely mistaken. The problem I see with you and people like you, is that there is nothing to criticize, because there is nothing there, period.”
Yo Dave……………is that you bro??? I can’t really say for sure because there are few expletives but send me a clue Nickname. BTW, nice job on the insult!
“Damn blog is becoming a forum for insulting L. Ron Hubbard”
Hey Nickname. It’s only because he deserves it.
Now you tell me!