This article is by regular commenter Bruce Ploetz. Bruce was in the SO for 25 years, at the Int Base for 19 years — one of the few true genuises I have ever met. He is an Associate of Science in Electronics Technology. When it comes to the E-Meter, there is likely no more qualified expert on earth. Bruce is named on five patent applications for work concerning the MK VII E-Meter and Learning Accelerator and won a patent with one other for the Drills Simulator. An Electronics Technician, he worked up from that to Electronics Engineer in Silicon Valley, then Director of Research and Design for Hubbard Electrometer, various design and technician posts in the Sea Org, and is now a Design Engineer in the real world.
Why use an E-Meter?
As Professor Stephen Kent of the University of Alberta recently averred on the two-hour special episode of Leah Remini’s Scientology, the Aftermath, L Ron Hubbard was a malignant narcissist. So it is understandable that he would make grandiose pronouncements, based on nothing but his own pride and authority, and expect others to accept them unquestioningly. That’s what narcissists do.
The pretense of secret knowledge, discovered by heroic effort or attained in mysterious interactions with higher forces, is a common feature of destructive cults that revolve around a malignant narcissist. It serves to filter out potential members that may lack the devoted intensity needed to really adore the central figure, and to create the sense that the group is special. To make the necessary barrier between the core believers and the outside world. To create the sense that sacred secrets are shared by the group that far exceed the understanding of the mere mortals outside.
It should be noted that religions are usually also based on sacred knowledge. The difference is how the beliefs are used. I say nothing here about anyone’s sincerely held beliefs and have no quarrel with believers in general. The issue is with those few who prey on others by pretending or inventing beliefs with the purpose of gaining undue influence over others.
But many have also averred, just as strongly, that Hubbard was onto something. That they experienced life changing successes using Hubbard’s techniques, especially the simpler early stages. And especially, they shout, what about the E-Meter? Doesn’t the objective use of a measurement tool remove the misty speculations and replace them with tested factual results? Can’t you “see a thought” or measure actual “mental masses”?
I am familiar with the argument because only a decade ago I would have made a similar statement.
A Painful Experiment
As an electronics technician who started my career in the 70’s, working my way up to engineer, I have some experience in electronics. And as a Scientologist who used the meter for hundreds of hours as an auditor, I have some idea what it is like to use one. And as Director of Research and Design for E-Meters in the Sea Org for three years, and contributor to several E-Meter related patents including the Drills Simulator, I can say that I have studied how it works.
The answer to the panicked starry-eyed true believers who cling to the meter like a rosary or a piece of the One True Cross is no. The meter does not prove that Hubbard was right. It can’t.
Don Breeding, inventor of the transistor E-Meter, did an experiment in the 80s and sent the results to L Ron Hubbard, who was unable to figure out what Don was talking about. So Hubbard sent the write-up to Ken Delderfield to archive. Ken, knowing that I was in charge of meter research at the time, showed me the write-up. So we are going by a decades old recollection of a paper I only read once, but since it upended my entire idea of how the meter works and since I put it to extensive testing over the years since that time, I can reconstruct the essential points.
Basically, Don put needles through his skin into the flesh beneath, and put that on an E-Meter instead of the cans. What he found was a tone arm position around .8, basically the same as clipping the leads together. In other words, the “juice” inside the body has essentially zero ohms resistance. It should not be surprising that this is so, since the “juice” is soaked with blood, which is mostly a saline solution. Pure water is not a good conductor of electricity, but if you add salt it becomes a very good conductor. Not as good as a metal like copper, but good enough to short out an E-Meter.
How the E-Meter doesn’t work
To understand the implications of Don’s painful experiment, we need to get a little technical. Feel free to skip this if you are allergic to equations and math. Ohm’s law basically says that electrical potential (usually called “voltage”, electro-motive force) is proportional to current (electron flow rate). The constant of proportionality is called resistance (ohms). V/I = R where V is volts, I is current (for no good reason) and R is resistance. This is just another way of saying the harder you push, the more flow you get, depending on the resistance.
Now we can use our Ohm’s Law. If V/I = R then by simple algebra V = I times R. Then when R is near zero, so is V. 0 times anything is 0. So, once the current from the meter gets into the body, it has a straight shot to the other can, it does not pass go and collect 200 dollars or interact with the brain or the soul or the masses of the mind or sheets of energy or anything. That is why solo cans work, where both cans are in one hand. Instead of going through the whole body, the current just goes a quarter inch or so. But it still works. The tone arm (resistance measuring setting) is a little higher because each can only covers half as much skin surface area. And the reads are a little smaller for the same reason. But otherwise it still works.
But, you say, what about the How the E-Meter Works film, scripted by Hubbard? Doesn’t he show a scene where a magnet is moved near the meter leads, and the needle jumps? Can’t there be effects on the needle even if the resistance is zero, like the antenna of a radio?
There can be such effects. No need to get into radio theory here, just think back to the film. The meter is connected to a coil made from many turns of wire wrapped around an iron core. And they are using a big heavy magnet. Do you really think the mind makes such large magnetic fields, large enough to affect a wire that is not formed into a coil? No such fields have been measured, they would be very bad for those who use pace-makers for their hearts, and they would make compass needles jump too. None of these phenomena have been observed.
But the real killer argument is this: remember the film. When the magnet is passed near the coil, the needle jumps and then pops right back to where it was. The film is carefully edited to make it seem more like a real reaction, but you can see it if you know what to look for. Real E-Meter needle reactions don’t look anything like that. The needle moves much more smoothly and stays down for a while, then gradually comes back. It never pops and then snaps back to where it was before.
I am not saying that there are no electro-magnetic phenomena associated with the body, mind or spirit. I am just saying that the meter does not and cannot measure such phenomena.
Even Hubbard, early on, acknowledged this. In the June 1952 article, Electropsychometric Auditing—Operator’s Manual Hubbard says:
DON’T MAKE THE ERROR OF THINKING THAT THE E-METER GOES THROUGH FACSIMILES. It goes only through the body.
He goes on to explain a purely spurious theory about “body density” but at least at this early stage he got it partly right. Later on he spun an ever more ephemeral web of complexity around it, but at the beginning even Hubbard knew that the meter shows physiological phenomena.
What the E-Meter really does
So where does the meter action really come from? As we have seen, it is not anything to do with the internal parts of the body. It is all happening in the thin layer of dead cells on the surface of the skin, right where it is in contact with the cans. In the palms, and on the soles of the feet, there are many special sweat glands. These open and close, releasing fluid, in response to emotional or mental arousal. Here I am using the technical term “arousal” which does not mean only sexual arousal. You can get an emotional arousal from hearing about the passing of a friend, or getting pinched enough to hurt, or in many other ways. Factually it is not just a matter of resistance changes, there are potential (voltage) changes as well.
This is well studied. You can look it up in texts on electro-dermal activity. It used to be called galvanic skin resistance or GSR and galvanic skin potential (GSP). One oddity in the texts is that they almost all say there is a two second or so delay. We who have used the E-Meter know that the delay is a lot less. I can only speculate that they are using silver-silver chloride electrodes that don’t show the activity in quite the same way as our E-Meter electrodes (soup cans).
Conclusion
The E-Meter shows emotional arousal using physiological phenomena associated with brain activity. It does not show anything useful about the mind or spirit, considered separately from the body. If you are afraid of ghosts, and see one, the meter would show that something had happened that affected you emotionally. It would not prove or disprove that there are ghosts! It can’t.
You could argue that the meter is still useful in therapy. Similar instruments are used for bio-feedback and research.
But you cannot argue that it gave L Ron Hubbard any useful special knowledge that would justify his claims to have found an empirical path to higher spiritual states. His claims to have discovered past lives and recovered lost knowledge using the E-Meter are similarly bogus.
It is actually a truly insidious conceit. Hubbard makes up something completely bizarre, like the “Piltdown Man” and how he used to chew on his wife. Since the Piltdown Man discovery is a hoax, and his large teeth were added by the hoaxer, it makes no sense to speculate on his marital relations.
But Hubbard did not present it as a speculation. He said it was “verified by the E-Meter”! At the time Hubbard was writing the History of Man, the Piltdown Man hoax was not broadly known to be invented pseudoscience. You could generously give him the benefit of the doubt or say it is a symbolic statement intended to give the flavor of the false memory, not specific facts. But then why did he say:
This is a cold-blooded and factual account of your last sixty trillion years.
From invented “memories”, Hubbard constructed supposedly lost knowledge in ever cascading fountains. Somehow he never “remembered” anything useful, like the location of the lost mines of Solomon or how to travel faster than light. But he disseminated speculations about everything from how to wash windows to baby formula to how to cure radiation sickness. It is almost like a religion invented by a hack science fiction and fantasy writer…
Sprinkled in with the false assertions he also used true information. Almost all of the facts he states as his own are derived from other authors without credit. And the information is usually distorted or given false significance. So the former Scientologist has to sort it all out, and most end up disagreeing about particulars. But it is pretty safe to simply reject Hubbard and just look for the real information from other sources instead.
L’Envoi
Hubbard built a mighty empire of fantastic assertions and claimed that he saw it all in a needle that waves about. Then he called it Sciency or Science-o-logical or something. To this day there are those who claim that Hubbard’s revelations do not require belief, that they are scientifically derived.
But they are not science. They are Scientology.
Scientology, a word that used to mean pseudo-science. Just about as scientifically valid as reading head bumps or tea-leaves, but he had the gall to use an electronic instrument. And that sucked me into the game.
I finally woke up, though, and you can too.
You should try passing a frequency ramp of 1V from 100kHz to 10Mhz over a 1s duration through cans you hold one in each hand repeatedly. This is so terrifying it’s absolutely not recommended to anyone. Accidentally doing so creates a terrifying state of anxiety, increased rate of breathing and a feeling that one is trapped and unable to get out.
it is called o ut-int you LOL,
Oh also it is out -tech so thats what you get
“I am just saying that the meter does not and cannot measure such phenomena”
bullshit… The meter measures DC resistance with a shunt current of = < 100 uAmps.
A 1 uAmp low frequency AC signal such as from brain wave currents, imposed upon that 100 uAmp shunt current, WILL BE NOTICED when the E-meter's "gain" is increased.which is can be, up to 128x
https://www.google.com/search?q=Theverin%27s+approximations
https://arnielerma.wordpress.com/2015/11/04/secrets-of-the-lie-detector-and-the-scientology-e-meter/comment-page-1/
Arnie, good of you to weigh in.
Possibly you could see very low frequency brain waves, like the theta waves, on a meter. But you would be seeing brain activity, not evidence of the soul or spirit.
That is my major point here, that the phenomena you see on the meter is not related to any of Hubbard’s bogus ideas like “body density changes”, “sheets of energy surrounding the body”, “mental masses” or “mental charges that discharge” etc. So the meter does not prove or disprove the existence of the spirit or tell us anything about the whole track etc. It tells us about physiological phenomena that are associated with arousal.
T-Marie, further down in the comments, speculated that the floating needle could be associated with the release of endorphin and this sounds possible to me. As you have suggested in your essay as well.
At any rate I am honored to have been taken to task by an respected member of the old guard. Hope you are doing well.
I never said anything about soul or spirit, but took issue with that broad brush stroke, because it is NOT TRUE. The GSR Lie Detector function is functionally identical to the E-meter..(note)
I agree that all that malarky by H was just another ‘shore story’ . From hundreds of hours of (Monroe’s stuff) meditation.. which is self directed trance, I found I could induce trance at will. I basically regaining control of my own trance, from Hubbard’s previous control vectors.
On the link, I noted what I’d found using a brain wave analyzer attached to soup cans… and I had a Mark 5 Meter.. I noted that each time I would induce a trance state, The Mark V would display an F/N, and when I’d switch to the brain wave analyzer I’d find that it was saying it was a trance!!
Scientology is trance controlled by an abusive operator, who is trying to steal you wallet. Scientology is multinational machine for stealing wallets…. H tells you to duplicate his motions exactly… because he certainly can’t just tell you what the hell you are really doing…We were hypnotizing each other! The F/N = a degree of trance, a certain degree of being more suggestible..to accepting whatever we are told as true…without evaluating it..
When thinking has been stopped by any means, the door to your subconscious is left unguarded.
Note: You should also read some Bjorn Nordenstrom’s works.. because the human body is not monolithic as the acupuncture needle ohmic tests might suggest. The big deal is that each of the body’s internal organ systems is dielectrically insulated from adjacent structures… These dielectric insulators, such as myelin surrounding nerves…that film you see around chicken livers… has a breakdown voltage in millivolts, microvolts and in cellular walls , femptovolts.. A small DC current entering through the hands will engage the first decent conductor it encounters.. which is the nervous system.. which goes to the brain stem…and from there who knows..but we certainly arn’t.
If each of the body’s organs did not have insulators around them, it would not be possible to have alkaline bile in a gall bladder 1cm from the inside stomach lining which is highly acidic! The assumption that current goes across the chest is not sound, but the amount of horrific reading needed to grasp this is simply astounding..and the good stuff is classified.
Also note for future contemplation that the large surface area of the cans places a boatload of high resistance skin effectively in parallel..effectively reducing that high resistance effect in the circuit..
(Note) Because the psychopath has no stress response to wrong doing, thus won’t ‘read’ as in react on an E-meter -or- a lie detector, I have concluded that organizations that use them for ‘security’, that security is just a shore story, because those organization that used these devices, be it the CIA, or Scientology… might actually want the psychopaths to rise to the top…using them under the guise of security, would allow this…(This requires contemplation) Ref: Tremor in the Blood.< book on lie detectors + Hare's stuff on psychopaths
PS: Keep going but get it right, the agonizing future of every man woman and child on this planet depends upon it, because without truth, all we have is delusion.
PS: “Contrary to general belief, it has been my experience that the more intelligent the subject, the easier it is to induce hypnosis” Ralph Slater, Stage Hypnotist, played Carnegie Hall several times the winter of 1949/1950 then Dianetics appeared the next spring..
Fascinating, Arnie. As Jon Atack always says, “Never believe a hypnotist”.http://home.snafu.de/tilman/j/hypnosis.html
I am no expert on neurology and biophysics, I just know the electronics on the other side of the cans. Once it was obvious that Hubbard was lying to make a buck, I jettisoned all interest in meters and all that.
Sort of like being the world’s foremost expert on buggy whips – of historical interest or possibly important to a small niche of hobbyists but not the way to fame and fortune in the modern world of automobiles and jet planes.
But clearly there is more to know. Perhaps some research will be done by reputable scientists, and these phenomena will someday prove to be useful outside of the context of the money-grubbing cult.
The issue is with those few who prey on others by pretending or inventing beliefs with the purpose of gaining undue influence over others. I had and have on ongoing 2WC with a person whom is seeing to such an extent many would not believe me
To begin I went into extensive studies of neurology and biophysics finding only a paucity of cases ♦ I can control the persons thoughts from my own self
Inducing terror or trauma at-will is neither for the Lame nor the Tame though I can do it at-will to such an extent that I have to control my *own* thoughts and intent
Above Mr. Rinder states one of the few true genuises I have ever met
True enough the physical device ^does^ track GSR
Whether something impinges as described by Hubbard has to do with other than such simplistic as whether GSR is directly «reading» mental-mass; Which a PC can carry without it impinging & research is or only likely to be funded by non-believers whom eschew such things as Mr. Rinder is willing to consider and Mr. Hubbard is not above lying to make a buck though his interest which devolves from the original interest in SF or such things generally is not well developed like it should be to do things like attempt the 8 Material and so-on ♦ I did read the Fishman Exhibit; Drafting through it in only 3 days after getting the link from Chuck and find nothing exceptional in there other than some minor gains in thoughts ideas and notions
I do not have Hubbard’s Synthetic Entities thing to hand though he speaks of it correctly as not an especially brilliant or insightful ( influence ) → The machine measures impingement → of the mental-mass → created by Tension → which causes a density → which is not the body
This interaction has sufficient studies to demonstrate that this mental-mass — which some claim to be able to see in a conventional sense — differs from such simplistic’s as claiming all R/S is Evil Int as any Raucous Intense Counter Effort *will* produce an R/S when as described in 8-80 *& 8008 ◘ This can vary widely
An over-eager ( case ) can build Community of Intelligent Synthetic Entities ….. Using them as Combat Team though this is way beyond even what Hubbard described or envisioned for the work as his motif is Humanistic not Galactic Warfare as he described it unless we consider allegory and metaphor as something to get the person thinking; In abstract concepts
So as not to scare the Self
It will if you assign self-directed choice and the capacity to act on that to these Synthetic Entities ♦ When Lisa crowds me about her Christian Theology I use it to get her to back off ♦ This for me is very funny
Wall of Fire?
Kiddie stuff; Try Gamma then get back with me
“The E-Meter shows emotional arousal using physiological phenomena associated with brain activity. It does not show anything useful about the mind or spirit, considered separately from the body. ”
Nothing useful about the mind or spirit?
Are you saying the mind and the brain are 2 different things? Assuming you are, does the mind influence the brain? When you recall the death of a pet, does that thought go from mind (outside the body), to brain, to emotional response, to galvanic skin response, detected by the emeter? If so , it seems the meter would be showing you something useful about the state of the mind.
Now, if you think this thought originated in the brain, by chemical activity, which then caused the emotional response, leading to the skin response, causing the meter to react… Is the meter still not telling you something useful about the state of this brain activity?
Either way, the conclusion that the emeter tells you nothing useful is dubious.
Jake, the meter tells us useful information about the mental state of the person holding the cans.
It just can’t tell us anything about what affects that mental state.
If the person thinks about a past experience that frightened him, that will show on the meter. If a person imagines an experience that frightens him that will also show on the meter.
If the person is an eternal spiritual being with thousands of millennia of past experience, and thinks of something that frightened him during the Crusades, that will show on the meter. If the person is simply a biological machine with a big brain that can imagine being frightened by a Crusader on a white horse, it will also show on the meter.
The questions about the true nature of man, past lives, the soul or spirit, electromagnetic phenomena associated with the mind, are not resolved by the use of the E-Meter. I don’t know the answers to these questions though like everyone else I have beliefs, speculations and wishes.
All I am saying is that the meter cannot directly give us answers about these kinds of questions. Using the meter to measure the soul is like using a tape measure to find out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Hi Bruce. The value of the emeter, as i see it, is not in answering any ultimate questions about the universe, LRH’s claims notwithstanding.
It’s can you use it to assist someone in sorting out their difficutlies in life so they feel better about it, in their own judgement.
According to your own statements it seems the answer is quite likely yes.
Does it function the way LRH claimed? perhaps not.
Can it be used as an aid in counseling to help people. Apparently yes.
You see Bruce? This post is so much better than your original article. It certainly covers and better explains what seemed to be rushed assumptions on your part. But I wouldn’t phrase it the way you did. The way that I would phrase it is : “We DON’T know whether or not the E-meter is measuring the electromagnetic manifestations of the mind or spirit. We don’t know if the E-meter proves or not the existence of something called a ‘mind’ or something called a ‘spirit’. More research is needed to make ANY assertions about it”. IMHO, that’s a more scientific statement, meaning unbiased in any directions.
Since I m just getting into all this. I have to watch Clear again and read the book. Lol
Interesting to see that Rathbun drags in Reinhold Niebuhr as an attempt to explain his recent videos. It’s a pity he wasn’t influenced more by Niebuhr than by Hubbard when he was a young man…
Being an retired electronics technician, I found the technical explanation of the E-Meter to be quite clear. Basically all you are doing is to measure skin resistance between the “cans”.
That photo with LRH and the children is extremely troubling to me, and I have had nightmares about scenes like that. If only I could somehow go back in time to protect these kids from the wicked shithead Hubbard.
To try to imagine the harm done by that bastard to so many trusting and innocent good people makes me weep.
“That photo with LRH and the children is extremely troubling to me…”
I think those are his own children – correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe they are Diana, Quentin, Suzette and Arthur…
I think they are his children too. But he wasn’t very nice them either, was he?
The beginning of the end of my time in Scientology was when I discovered how to make my needle float on demand. The discovery helped open my eyes and was key in the collapse of the Scientology house of cards for me.
You, too? Furthermore, I figured out how to create “theta bops” at will. And course sups kept asking me to come into the course room and demonstrate them. LOL
All I ever figured out about the emeter was that when I was not “playing” with the cans, they did indicate “something” was there to be looked at, nothing more. And the “looking” was my job. Thus I did get a lot of bang for my buck way back when. Thus I actually *did* get “case gain”, changes which affected my life in positive ways. The whole thing was up to me, not Hubbard or the emeter. And, internally, I did take credit for my wins.
Just an off topic observation:
Critics of Mike, Leah, Tony and the rest are still allowed on Mike’s site. Some of these folks really talk shit about Mike over on Marty’s. Yet Mike still allows them on this site.
Marty on the other hand is massively culling the herd to only allow people who support his narrative. He’s probably dumped 100s if not thousands of dissenters.
Yet in his videos he accuses Mike, Leah and others of manipulating media.
This one fact reveals who is the enforcer of media manipulation and who represents freedom of speech and who represents suppression of free speech.
It’s so apparent I’m surprised he doesn’t see the effect.
I saw two people posting ever there Brian that are funny and sad. One is guy that would be in an institution if any judge ever saw his/her posts (remoteviewed) and the other is a major troll that left Mike’s blog after posting so much insanity that he blew off.
Seems to be perfect company for Marty these days. Plus you have Marildi and the troll that recently said that Mike cannot keep me from posting here talking all kinds of trash about Mike over there.
Brian, I agree, the discussion on Rathbun’s site, while not necessarily scripted, is tightly controlled.
Brian, I agree. The discussion on Rathbun’s blog while not exactly scripted, is tightly controlled. Is that ironic?
Yes?
I cannot believe anyone would still support Marty on his hateful blog after his cruel betrayal and endless shit talking. He’s a filthy, shameless liar. Calling the death of Alexander Jentzsch and Karen’s heartache over it a “song and dance” is beneath contempt. What kind of person talks that way about a mother who lost her son and was prevented by $cientology from seeing him after he died? Makes me sick.
And all the lies and bullshit he’s making up about Mike, Tony, Leah and everyone else is just flat out grounds for an ass whooping. He knows he’s lying. He knows he’s full of shit. Yet there he is, going on and on. And some people are encouraging his madness. I simply don’t get it.
Succinct and to the point about Marty. This behavior I can not understand since he helped many (including Mike) in the beginning. Marty is very destitute in character now. While some say he is merely ‘exposing untruth in the ASC’, in reality it is just poison being spewed which will eventually consume him.
Sorry if this is a bit off thread, but it is important, IMHO. I just saw Marty’s anti “Aftermath” video number 16 today. (Amazing that he can even find stuff to say to make up 16 videos about it.) Anyway, he trashes Ronnie Miscavige’s claim in his book that when asked by the PI’s who were tailing Ron, “he appears to be having a heart attack, should I call an ambulance?” David Miscavige’s response was, “No, don’t call. IF it’s his time to go, let him go.” Marty says this is a lie. Let me remind everyone, Marty especially, that Ron only found out about that from the police officer who came to tell him that they had the PI’s in custody from pulling them over and finding guns and the PI’s both said this in their interrogations by the police. So Ron didn’t make it up. He was shocked to hear from the police who heard it from the PI’s and have it as a permanent record now. So that tells me it is Marty who is lying about this.
Right you are. Massive outpoint.
L Ron Hubbard promoted the emeter to help overcome mental and spiritual problems. He associated blips on the meter with mental and emotional occurrences that he codified. He considered it science.
L Ron Hubbard audited most of life using the emeter. The blips on the meter led him to create processes and OT levels.
He was using an emeter and the end of his life, still haunted by the delusion of BTs and OT3. A true believer in letting his mind go where the needle went. It became his mirror in which he projected his thoughts onto the emeter which linked imagination with reality.
This process of letting needle reactions identify thoughts and emotions which bypasses our own ability to reason brought the Old Man to wish for suicide.
The man who wrote Dianetics the Modern Science of Mental Health was very sick mentally at the end.
The emeter, led L Ron Hubbard to wish to commit suicide by electrocution to free BTs.
Ron was a madman at the end. On the order of Howard Hughes. And it was the emeter, believed in as a perfect reflection of thought and feelings, which finally brought him down the rabbit hole of madness; crushed beneath the imaginations haunting his subconscious.
Giving the emeter absolute power to reason, be logical, see the truth and identify problems is a dangerous line to cross.
I believe there are times when the emeter can react to real things. Ive experienced it myself.
BUT….. just consider, that the very processes, verified on the emeter, brought L Ron Hubbard to a decrepit delusional mental state.
This one fact is like kryptonite to true believers. They go through amazing logic pretzels to justify or deny a fact verified by Marty, Mike and on Going Clear………….
The emeter was the device, that was the threshold the portal, to Ron’s own self destruction.
regarding BT’s and past lives, there was an earlier study done, but using a galvanometer, It turns out the study showed that the galvanometer read on imagination as well. Does the Emeter do the same?
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?44059-A-paper-published-by-the-University-of-Zurich-in-1907&p=1145292&viewfull=1#post1145292
Imagine that. Is this irony or what, LRH being the professional writer he was, and a writer creates narratives, imagines in our mind, in a reader of his work, and Ron being the one who rose above the bank supposedly, created images in our minds, and yet we are not to speculate why, or not question “why he did rise above the bank” sort of “proved” the emeter read on past lives. LOL What rhetoric.
What a confidence trick you might say.
We was implanted I’d say with LRH’s imagination. I even think he duped hisself. I know I did, all I had to do from personal experience was to think, imagine, happy thoughts, and I would get a F/N at the session and examiner after the session was going nowhere. We all eventually figure it out even if we don’t have the words to explain.
That last line really sums it up! I’d just add that doing the upper level space alien spirit mass exorcism rituals won’t just make you crazy, it will give you the exact same mental “case” that Elron suffered from his entire adult life and which left him mentally incompetent and DEFINITELY NOT any kind of transcendent master.
Life of a cultist in brief: You pay a million, waste years of your life and end up as mad as Elron was in his final years, then…off to the implanting station!
“The emeter was the device, that was the threshold the portal, to Ron’s own self destruction.” I finished OT 3 when I realized that I was only running Ron’s own case and it had nothing to do with me at all. Laughed like a madman. Invented an interesting story for the examiner and continued with a dial wide F/N.
This is what Sarge said in the Going Clear movie:
Sarge; “He was having a problem getting rid of a BT. So he wanted me to build a machine to basically blow the thetan away, just get him out of there and also kill the body.”
So which was it? He wanted to “blow the thetan away” or wanted to commit (risk) suicide?
Both apparently. Why are they mutually exclusive? If you don’t want BT’s there is a simple solution. Don’t occupy a body.
Can’t help but relate that to Scientology as an organisation. In a weird but workable analogy, we apostates are similar to organisational BTs. Eventually, Miscavige won’t be able to have people in his organisation. I think he’s already dramatizing that with his into videos, Golden Age revisions etc and concentrating on a select little group of whales (getting smaller in number all the time). He is hand nurturing and pampering them as long as the money flows.
The messiest wheels in the world belong to the Scientology bus!
I thought about this a little more, (I truly didn’t want to) but it seems obvious to me now why Hubbard was addicted to auditing and his never ending research. That BT he was trying to get rid of was his own conscience. He was insane to assume he could as-is anything he wished, especially the results & repercussions of his own behavior. His solution for everything was always more & more research, more and more auditing. He tried to find out how to clear himself of his own mental creations, reactions and their consequences – and bingo, freedom from… was always to him, just a cognition away.
Life doesn’t work that way obviously or accept that one can handle everything with auditing or being an asshole. There was more than just Hubbard plying his tech to life and following his lead, he saw the damage it was doing and ignored it. His own callous actions and the way he treated others, his lies, hence his conscience caught up with and he tried desperately to free himself of it, even if it meant suicide. Honesty was the best answer for you Ronny and now Miscavige is grappling with the same type of thing except he doesn’t audit or indulge in the tech as a solution, he just squashes people and things he doesn’t like. Hubbard tried both.
What a sick fucking thing organised Scientology grew into. Marty Rathbun comes to mind too in this scenario. Too many crimes based on and with Scientology does weird things to people – come clean or it will catch up with you!
I Yawn – “I thought about this a little more, (I truly didn’t want to) but it seems obvious to me now why Hubbard was addicted to auditing and his never ending research. That BT he was trying to get rid of was his own conscience.”
WOW just wow I think you just nailed it!
I Yawn! Yes! His BTs were his conscience.
I Yawn and Ms.P – I agree and that’s probably as “reasonable” and explanatory as far as interpreting crazy can be. 🙂
My point was that in the course of human events condemning anyone as suicidal based on an interpretive statement made by one person doesn’t seem fair. From what Sarge said I could interpret Hubbard’s thinking as “I’ll get rid of that BT even if it kills me.”
He assigned his own transgressions as being caused by a disembodied being or beings. That Hubbard became suicidal will carry forward in the minds of most people.
I would never easily condemn Hubbard nor try extrapolate on whatever 3rd party report was thought of as a “suicide attempt” to justify or explain his true intentions or reason(s) to kill himself, if indeed any of that is true – it’s always too complex or so stupidly simple in my experience to ever be that decisive. However, what makes Hubbard unique is that he had gone well past the point of arrogance and self grandiosity that I feel he was so confident with his understanding of the human mind he was certain he could eliminate the human phenomenon of having a conscience. He did some wicked things, yet chose to continue auditing rather than accept he needed ethics and a councilor. Why did he do that? It seems obvious to me he thought he could beat life at it’s own game. He needed humanity more than humanity needed him in the end but he chose otherwise. He truly went insane playing his own game. He probably thought he was completely above being human, which meant humans and their accomplishments or help were beneath him.
IMO his BT, space cootie tech was a failure of both procedure and technology, he’d rather die first than ever admit that!
Be aware that BT / CLUSTERS / BLACK STATICS cling to “Meat Bodies” but also to the Etheric or finer bodies. [ Thetan if you wish ]
Dumping the “Meat Body” does not always mean that you will get rid of them.
Hubbards “Case” setup Scientology and those with a parallel “Case” did well. Those with a differing case did not do as well. To me OT1 – OT2 and OT3 were a joke. On OT3 I did a lot of hours with reasonable “large Ticks” as indications on the meter. In hind site these were auditing other things but at the time about half way through I did an experiment. I concluded that OT3 was bogus. To prove this I read the pre-set materials ahead –all at once to see if anything would happen. Well after a page and a half, I stopped and felt weird, my stomach felt weird my head also–so I lay down. It got worse. To explain I have a capability to “Blow off” what-ever is re-stimulated to a degree–after about 30 minutes the center of my head just went “crack” and my head jumped up from it, I then felt better. After that I had no reads on the OT3 materials. The Official explanation that my “CASE” went to “no reads” was that my “CASE” went SOLID. Which is a joke also.
The Emeter is an aid that works most of the time. People in this thread discount the most important thing in Auditing, the Auditor and to find something in the person that will “run” and get a success on it. The “CASE” or “Spirituality” of the AUDITOR is “king” not the e-meter. When the person gets “RESULTS” like I did eventually and my IQ went from 127 to 141 and beyond, which is a different level of thinking, then you know something is going on–that was simple Scientology Auditing which is “Key out” processing.
BLACK STATIC processing is “key in” processing where everything is re stimulated and not keyed out/blown off. If done in the “non-interference zone” where a Person can not see pictures / can create floating needles at a whim / or has the NOTS or OT case in re-stimulation this will kill that individual. That is what happened to me. I did not die as I have a few tricks up my sleeve. I only just crawled out from under it though. It however can not be left alone as it has to be blown off continually as its a continually sinking lid back onto me, that was 25 years ago and its still dogging me. I suspect NOTs as before the levels above it people were on the never-ending NOTS carousel.
If you still doubt re-stimulation there was a book called “The Piped Piper” written by a Scientologist. I read 3 chapters then stopped. IT took ONE week to blow-off the what-ever it re-stimulated and I returned the book. I was told that all who had read that book ended up with problems and needed auditing to fix them up.
If you want a real world incident then Mr Jessup and the men in Black. Mr Jessup after talking to the men in Black slumped into a depression eventually killing himself. Its what they told him that did not so much bother him, but keyed in on him to produce the depression/suicide.
The HIDDEN Communication line. Hubbard decried this as FALSE, because he knew that “telepathic” communication was real but trouble-some to Scientology. Best Auditors are Telepathic but also who have conquered Prejudges, Resentment and have attained gratitude. A lot of so called OT’s are simply husks with high IQ’s of no particular worth as the “Scientology” processing is a very narrow band. As Hubbard said a Cannibal that is clear, is just a Cleared Cannibal, nothing more. A lot of good Auditors use the Pupil of the eye, the tone of voice, the body language, the e-meter and the Aura [ as those that they can see it ] as well as Telepathy to Audit.
The second Brain of the body is also implicated in Auditing as it will affect the nervous system. The liver is the main component, with the other abdomen organs adding to it. This is what gives you hunches, and communicates in Emotions rather than verbal/Telepathic communication. As I have chased this down it has become “more” active. To some degree huge Emotions can be expended by it, the gradients can be colossal.
RH +ve “Meat bodies are Monkey DNA.
RH -ve “Meat Bodies ” are Feline DNA.
They both look the same.
The RH +ve “meat bodies” have a Monkey Telepathic structure that is in all Apes. It uses Impressions rather than words. It is the “I was thinking about you the other day” and that was the time you were thinking about them. It is the reason in Java where there are a lot of islands, that one group of Monkeys pioneered opening Clam shells with stones, that this spread to the other islands in a short time without any monkey leaving the pioneering Island.
This structure has a built in back door in RH+ve Humans, it is hardware changed to allow access to it at a certain frequency in a Human persons brain for Spying and Control of the Body. A transmission at the correct frequency can block it. However there is the chance that it can be used in reverse due to the a Transmitter is also a receiver.
Full blown Telepathy is verbal orientated. Monkey Telepathy is “Feeling” or “picture” orientated. Due to circumstances involving full blown Telepathy– they were– I was not — a bit seemingly rubbed off on me and I started to receive things. It seems Earth girls “know” if you can receive a message as I found out, and I was sent a picture of the female person involved with a picture as clear as day of her as YOUNG, and as she stood before me, as OLDER.” I was taken aback, did not understand it, so I said in my head, show me when you were younger again. Just a test on my behalf. She dropped her head down and a wave of Telepathic disappointment followed.
That disappointment communication I had received before in the previous. I later found out that she was pregnant and it was a communication on that fact, but to me it was a cryptic communication.
Proper full on Telepathy is like HD 100 inch TV with surround sound. There are problems with it and misunderstanding’s can happen as you have to understand exactly what is happening. Again I failed in this and the communication was complicated and non-sequitur. This all happened — and is simply told to ensure you know the pitfalls of two-way Telepathic communication. In auditing you only use one way communication in Telepathy usually to simplify the process. The Auditor talks to the Person both verbally and listens in Telepathy. Then can guide telepathically without words–yes that can be done. Verbal is common. But a “thought transferred” is also equally common. That is how the “backdoor” to RH+ve Humans is done. Setup is a while, but what I saw was the close down sequence and that is faster than lightning. I am not a Telepathic person, this has been deliberately suppressed in me and for the above reasons I really do not like Telepathy.
Masses engulf the body as does a Black static, hence affecting all the skin that is why solo auditing works. Also the Bodies second brain affects the e-meter.
Also people can deliberately muck with the CS, Auditor or the person being audited through the RH+ve Telepathy center.
To make a point masses are less dense than a body and can merge with the body.
A person is a mass od masses, in that they are like balloons attached to that person but at different distances. When a person moves they pull these masses around.
Hence if everyone in a City has a Mass with Yellow Submarines in it, then a Telecast of the Yellow Submarine will probably activate it, or pull it in to engulf the persons body, but to most people in the city. Now you know why Television will not disappear, its too good a controlling mechanism to throw away.
A place can feel like “heavy mass” if everyone is keyed into the sane thing or lots of things.The masses are engulfing everyone. Yesterday the masses were 2 miles away, today they engulf the people due to a common trigger, Radio or TV.
The e-meter can be replaced by an EEG machine. E-meters are so one dimensional.
This is in response to a VERY old comment.
Not sure why you are suddenly appearing with this?
Thank you Bruce for a very insightful read. As a child/teenager I completely believed the e-meter and was quite scared of it, thinking it could literally read my mind, then coming out of the SO at age 22 and having no auditing for over 30 years I started to become wise, so when I had to go back in for sec-checking in 2012/2013/2014 – I learned how to “play” the e-meter and was seriously amazed at how easy it was. On top of that all the “new” BS from GAT 1 was very apparent to me and how things had changed for the worst in regards to auditing in general. What a learning curve I have been on. This just validates what I now know. Keep writing Bruce I am sure you have a lot of interesting stories to tell us. Thanks!
It’s witch doctor mentality in effect. The E-meter is a more modern version of the witch doctors “beads and rattles” your belief is what makes it work. I’m happy you escaped.
Sitting in Whole Foods reading this blog. I look up there’s Mike. Nice to finally meet you Mike.
Re: The meter. Some years ago I was at Flag where I had just wasted 2 intensives on a Sec Chek. Now I’m in front of the examiner,wondering how the hell I will FN, and be done. As I Sat there in silence ,my mind wondered and I recalled the first time meeting my girlfriend . I got a vivid mental image picture of her beautiful smile. At that exact moment,the examiner says , ” Your tone arm is floating !”.
( Tone Arm Floating ,is a good thing )
From that point on I questioned the tech.
“Joetheta” a.k.a. Christopher Baranet. Member of the C of S from 1977-2016.
Hey Christopher. Nice to bump into you this evening!
Hi CB, Did you read Bent’s book? Long time no see. Shawn Skinner
Hi C.B, hope you are well! Are you still on here? I would love to be able to ask a few questions about floating needles and tone arm floating if you have a few minutes?
Ah Bruce, the above post of mine (my 2nd one to you) I tried to cancel but was too late in doing it. I didn’t mean the “scientific self-righteousness” part as an insult, but looking it over, it sounded too harsh. So “delete” the part and any hostile ones from your mind, 🙂
However, the part about you jumping to conclusions, that one I keep, haha. 🙂
I watched a very interesting movie by Tom Shadyac called “I Am”.
I wonder if anyone else has seen it (I highly recommend it).
In it he meets a couple of researchers who sit him in front a bowl of yogurt to demonstrate that his emotion can be transmitted into the yogurt.
I know I do not understand the e-meter the same way Bruce and other experts do. But I am also not sure that there is not some emotional/metaphysical factor that plays into this.
It is a fascinating subject. I am not sure what I believe about the meter and it’s relation to your mind and thoughts. I was curious whether anyone else had seen Tom Shadyac’s film (especially those who tend toward the idea that the meter ONLY measures physical responses) and what they understood from the bowl of yogurt demonstration?
One of my favourite films.
Oh that Hollywood would experience his journey…?
The yogurt scene struck an uncomfortable cord with me.
At the time I filed it in the “there’s a lot we don’t truly understand yet” folder.
Struck as I was it didn’t stop me embracing the point of the film which for me far outweighed any argument for or against electronic emotion measurement as it were but I can’t deny it made me think.
I haven’t seen that particular film but I’ve seen videos of similar experiments on rice and water, for example – which prove both thoughts and words affect physical matter. These experiments have been replicated over and over. Here’s a short video with some photos of some of the results of Dr. Masaru Imoto’s experiments on water:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIOx7i7MkY8
Emoto’s experiments aren’t actually replicable through proper scientific testing, at last not as far as proving that thoughts and words have any affect on the changes taking place in the water. There’s only been one paper on it, involving Emoto himself, produced at an unaccredited institute and published in the journal of a society dedicated to promoting topics such as ufology, parapsychology and cryptozoology.
More from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaru_Emoto :
Scientific criticism
Commentators have criticized Emoto for insufficient experimental controls and for not sharing enough details of his approach with the scientific community.[8][18][19] William A. Tiller, another researcher featured in the documentary What The Bleep Do We Know?, states that Emoto’s experiments fall short of proof, since they do not control for other factors in the supercooling of water.[20] In addition, Emoto has been criticized for designing his experiments in ways that leave them prone to manipulation or human error influencing the findings.[8][10][21] Biochemist and Director of Microscopy at University College Cork William Reville wrote, “It is very unlikely that there is any reality behind Emoto’s claims.”[8] Reville noted the lack of scientific publication and pointed out that anyone who could demonstrate such a phenomenon would become immediately famous and probably wealthy.[8]
Writing about Emoto’s ideas in the Skeptical Inquirer, physician Harriet A. Hall concluded that it was “hard to see how anyone could mistake it for science”.[22] Commenting on Emoto’s ideas about clearing water polluted by algae, biologist Tyler Volk stated, “What he is saying has nothing to do with science as I know it.”[3] Stephen Kiesling wrote in Spirituality & Health Magazine, “Perhaps Emoto is an evangelist who values the message of his images more than the particulars of science; nevertheless, this spiritual teacher might focus his future practice less on gratitude and more on honesty.”[10]
Emoto was personally invited to take the One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge by James Randi in 2003, and would have received US$1,000,000 if he had been able to reproduce the experiment under test conditions agreed to by both parties. He did not participate.[23][24]
Actually, there was a triple-blind replication, as summed up here:
“An experiment tested the hypothesis that water exposed to distant intentions affects the aesthetic rating of ice crystals formed from that water. Over three days, 1,900 people in Austria and Germany focused their intentions towards water samples located inside an electromagnetically shielded room in California. Water samples located near the target water, but unknown to the people providing intentions, acted as ‘‘proximal’’ controls. Other samples located outside the shielded room acted as distant controls. Ice drops formed from samples of water in the different treatment conditions were photographed by a technician, each image was assessed for aesthetic beauty by over 2,500 independent judges, and the resulting data were analyzed, all by individuals blind with respect to the underlying treatment conditions. Results suggested that crystal images in the intentionally treated condition were rated as aesthetically more beautiful than proximal control crystals (p < 0.03, one-tailed). This outcome replicates the results of an earlier pilot test." http://noetic.org/research/projects/effects-of-distant-intention-on
You can read the whole paper here: http://www.deanradin.com/papers/emotoIIproof.pdf
Great, now that just needs to be confirmed by several independent tests and there may be something.
marildi, I’d already found and read that paper – it’s the one that I was referring to, printed in the same pseudoscience publication that accepts articles about subjects like bigfoot that then literally end up in the headlines of tabloid magazines such as Weekly World News (who also feature Bat Child).
I did initially overlook that the same group of researchers had published a supposed double-blind trial two years earlier. If you read the second paper carefully, the results were not significant for many of the groups tested, while others produced results that were barely statistically significant. That was a much lesser degree of significance than found in the first paper – such downward variance is typically a sign of research that ends up being disproven and discredited when performed with proper procedures and controls by independent researchers.
And anyone can note for themselves, that the supposed experiment described in that paper starts out with “plastic bottles of Fiji brand commercial bottled water” – does that sound like real science, to buy water at the grocery store and assume that it is necessarily even pure and consistent between bottles, much less between lots? The rest of the experiment is similar flawed, and is well debunked in an article by Harriet A. Hall, who wrote that “This watery fantasy is all very entertaining and imaginative, full of New Age feel-good platitudes, holistic oneness, consciousness raising, and warm fuzzies; but it’s hard to see how anyone could mistake it for science” and it is “the worst book I have ever read. It is about as scientific as Alice in Wonderland.”
http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1144934/masaru_emotos_wonderful_world_of_water/
Here’s Dean Radin’s response to the type of criticisms you are engaging in and forwarding:
“Criticism: Apparently successful experimental results are actually due to sloppy procedures, poorly trained researchers, methodological flaws, selective reporting, and statistics problems. There is therefore not a shred of scientific evidence for psi phenomena.
“Response: These issues have been addressed in detail by meta-analytic reviews of the experimental literature. The results unambiguously demonstrate that successful experiments cannot be explained away by these criticisms. In fact, research by Harvard University specialists in scientific methods showed that the best experimental psi research today is not only conducted according to proper scientific standards, but usually adheres to more rigorous protocols than are found in contemporary research in both the social and physical sciences. In addition, over the years there have been a number of very effective rebuttals of criticisms of individual studies, and within the past decade, experimental procedures have been developed that address virtually all methodological criticisms, even the possibility of fraud and collusion, by including skeptics in the experimental procedures.” http://www.deanradin.com/para2.html
Perhaps this is an oversimplification, and I may be pummeled for stating it. However, much scientific knowledge has established the relationship between physical response and emotional/psychological well-being. People suffer from stress-induced strokes and heart attacks all the time.
As an example, a patient goes to see his MD, and the intake nurse wraps a blood pressure cuff around the patient’s arm. This is an entirely non-invasive procedure. The cuff may reveal that the patient has an undesirably elevated pressure. Some of the possible causes may include lack of sleep, a poor diet over the long term, smoking, diabetes, excessive drinking, drug use, etc. Or, the reading may indicate that the patient is experiencing extreme stress or other emotional upset. But, the answer will not be clear until further inquiry is made as to possible causes.
The equipment (cuff) only measures a physiological response. It cannot reveal that the patient may be going through a divorce, may have lost a job, may have experienced a death in the family, or may have underlying medical issues until someone ASKS about it.
Often, as most medical professionals will agree, just the experience of being in the doctor’s office will create that elevated blood pressure, and the doctor will sit chat with the patient, retake the pressure, and find the blood pressure has diminished. That sort of scenario is the only legitimate parallel that I see with the function of the E-Meter. The candidate grips the cans during an audit. He may be made nervous simply by the process. Perhaps the auditor wishes to discuss a topic that makes the candidate uncomfortable. And, is he gripping the cans with exactly the same pressure throughout the audit? (A blood pressure cuff doesn’t work properly until it presses strongly and uniformly enough around the skin to monitor activity.) A physiological response takes place. Simultaneously, as discussed by many who have participated in the process, the machine provides desirable or undesirable readings, with the desirable ones often occurring after the candidate simply has discussed the issue that makes him nervous.
I have wondered from time to time whether there may be some validity to the process, just as there is validity to many mental health therapeutic processes. But these non-invasive processes often are effective largely because the candidate/patient DESIRES the process to work, or BELIEVES that it does work.
Otherwise, I think today’s article pretty much debunks the legitimacy of the E-Meter.
Spellbound, having just studied our incredible brain and central nervous system, pretty much everything we think causes a chemical reaction of some sort in our bazillions of cells. I was blown away by the intricacies of this dance that our cells do on such a huge scale and how even the most minute “mistake” in the flow/dance can wreak havoc.
So yes, when I think a thought, a chemical reaction occurs in my body. If that thought happens to be upsetting, the reaction causes a greater physical reaction than one that is pleasant. But, it’s not “the thought” making the meter read; it’s the chemical reaction of my body doing it. That’s the big difference, at least from what I’m understanding here. The thought does not have mass. The thought caused a physical/chemical reaction that has mass/movement in the body.
Now, I could use this, let’s say, if I wanted to analyze something upsetting me (which would cause a physical/chemical reaction that would move the needle) until I felt the issue was resolved (which would involve the chemical reactions changing, maybe let’s say because dopamine was released when I realized the underlying problem)) and I would then feel it was handled and likely have a floating needle. But again, not because there was no more “mental image picture” messing with the flow of the current, but because my body is in a different chemical state than when I started.
I imagine this must be how biofeedback works, but I haven’t studied it.
I have solo-audited and this makes perfect sense to me now. I disagreed with running what other people said to run, but when I wanted to resolve certain issues about myself, I already knew I was upset by that issue and that when I decided to put attention on it to resolve it, the meter would read. Now I understand why that is. Things that upset me cause quite a chemical reaction in my brain, which flows out to many parts of my body. When I take the time to resolve those upsets, I’m changing the chemistry to something that feels much more pleasant. Other practices accomplish this as well.
I see how this worked when I audited others and I see how it worked when I audited myself.
Today, we have brain imaging that proves the very thing I’m talking about here. Not a damned thing to do with mental image pictures or thoughts having mass…it’s all about the chemistry.
Great post Marie. I suffer from ‘anxiety disorder’ and anyone who has had an anxiety attack knows exactly what that ‘havoc’ feels like. The mind is a mystery for sure, but as you stated,
“Not a damned thing to do with mental image pictures or thoughts having mass…it’s all about the chemistry.”
OhioBuckeye, I understand anxiety disorder and I know it’s tough to deal with. How to change those chemical reactions isn’t easy. Best wishes to you.
Thanks Marie. One reason I enjoy this blog (and the only one I contribute to) , is the great people like yourself, who hang out here; not to mention the vast knowledge of the participants and the education I am gathering on so many levels.
Thank you, Marie and OhioBuckeye. I agree entirely with your statements concerning the elicitation of chemical reactions based upon psychological distress. Not only can the very existence of such be verified by credible scientific tools and processes (bio-feedback is a perfect example), but those measurable physiological reactions and changes are precisely what I intended to highlight. What cannot be determined by the instruments themselves, though, is what causes those physiological reactions. Those causes are secreted away in the mind or body of the subject, until s/he reveals them or further medical testing is done. I can see the post should have been more clear on the matter. I will try to do better in the future.
Hope the two of you have a terrific day!
Spellbound, agreed. I was having an “ahha” moment from this post and what the e-meter actually reads and sort of went off…
I haven’t seen it Mike but I have friends who have and loved it. Also I know some folks who know him and they say he is the real deal. He lives for spiritual liberation and is a meditator.
Actually I went to a premier for one of his Universal movies. A red carpet thing. Tom came to his premiere at Universal driving an old beat up Honda. Even though he was the director and this was his movie he drove an old beat up car.
I’ve also heard he is a very nice guy. I will look for the movie. Thanks for reminding me.
Thanks Mike for bringing this up and to Brian for your comments about him. I heard the same–he’s the real deal. I read about Tom Shadyac, and I Am, a couple of years ago after Googling concussions, (I, too, had a bad fall off my bike…).
Thanks for jogging my memory on the film!
Great topic and info on the e-meter…
To those who posted on Biofeedback, I’ve been doing neurofeedback (it’s similar- if not the same–as biofeedback). Have found it extremely helpful in reducing my PTSD (Post Scientology Stress Disorder).
For anyone suffering the same or extreme anxiety I highly recommend checking it out. Also…. it’s covered by insurance.
It never ceases to surprise me the many valid therapies out there that don’t cost tens of thousands of dollars and touted by Scientology as harmful…
Yes, I saw it – very interesting to see the effect thought has on things. There’s more information if you delve into the subject of Quantum physics. You might enjoy the following:
What the Bleep!?: Down the Rabbit Hole
http://imdb.com/rg/an_share/title/title/tt0499596/
Albert Einstein has been quoted as saying, “We don’t know one millionth part of anything.” I try to keep that in mind anytime I’m feeling pompous about something. LOL
Mike, The e-meter is just a machine. The e-meter measures resistance (tone arm) and shows minor changes in resistance (needle and sensitivity), You are correct in that what it is showing is more than just body resistance. Something is causing pattern changes in resistance. If one looks at various needle patterns like “theta-bop, R/S, or F/N” something is causing the body resistance to fluctuate like this, and it is repeatable, and distinctive. It is also too fast for it to be a chemical body release.
Bruce said ” It would not prove or disprove that there are ghosts! It can’t.” But it can show the mental reaction to the concept of a ghost. The mental connection would seem to be the real question.
As far as auditing goes, the auditor is supposed to be in communication with the PC. It seems to have fully devolved into the auditor is only in communication with the meter. (The meter was supposed to be another tool for the auditor, not the only tool.)
It is not too fast to be a chemical release. That’s false. These things happen instantaneously, before you can even think a thought about it. Because of and through evolution, we are conditioned to release chemicals before we have ANY awareness of certain things, for example.
This is an article I Googled quickly, that gives an idea of just how intricate these chemical reactions are.
https://experiencelife.com/article/emotional-biochemistry/
But 1984, see my previous comment please.
T-Marie, so you conclude that “thought”, through a series of via’s can quickly cause a change in mass response (in this case, resistance) by chemical reaction?
The emotional-biochemistry article does conclude that more conclusive research into this area is critical. Interesting.
Sorry 1984, the article didn’t show scientific evidence of the point I was making, but those studies are out there. We do “physically” react (and I do mean chemically, when I say that) before we are even consciously aware of that reaction in many cases.
Mike, first a bit of relevant background on that one particular scene.
Cleve Backster was a CIA interrogation expert and polygraph pioneer, who after leaving the government in the 1960s, started promoting his theory that plants could feel pain and emotions – which inspired Hubbard to pose with a tomato and an e-meter. Backster used polygraph-like equipment, including performing experiments with yoga, but scientists have never been able to duplicate his results. Interestingly, parapsychologists critiqued him for possibly producing the results through his own telekinetic abilities rather than the actual responses of the plants themselves (I’ve challenged Scientology true believers on a similar point, regarding the e-meter and the implications OT abilities would have in auditing).
I haven’t seen the movie, but I looked for information about the yogurt experiment. The producers said that they had to “relax protocol to film” the scene, and apparently the yogurt and the meter are never seen in the same shot. Shadyac himself is reported to have said “Look, scientific protocols had to be relaxed for that [the yogurt sequence] because we had other people in the room. But it’s not hard for me to buy that my energy, my emotions affect living things.” That sounds like the scene was manipulated, or even just faked.
Mythbusters also tackled plants and yogurt: http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/mythbusters-database/plants-have-feelings/
I’m not certain that there aren’t metaphysical things going on in our world and our lives – in fact, I suspect there are things that effectively are, even if they would turn out to have very esoteric scientific explanations – but I doubt that a bowl of yogurt and some readily available equipment will be what reveal them.
It does sound like an interesting movie, nonetheless, and I’ll try to see it if I get a chance.
The problemn with the mythbusters is that they strongly DO NOT BELIEVE, so even *those” negative thoughts might well be afffecting the experiment, too?
No thegman, in SCIENTIFIC belief is NOT a factor. You are thinking superstition and magic.
Interesting, PeasceMaker, sounds like an National Public Radio show I heard in the 60s. Somebody had connected a polygraph to a plant. Then they opened a yoghurt container. In those days it was very common to have the fruit on the bottom in a sugary mixture, and you were supposed to stir it up to get the flavored yoghurt result.
When they stirred up the yoghurt, there was a reaction on the polygraph from the plant. They theorized that the sugary fruit syrup killed the live yoghurt culture, and that the death of the culture was picked up by the plant.
They also found that the plant could react to intentions. If the researcher thought about harming the plant, it would react. But it had to be a real intention that was about to be carried out, like clipping off some leaves. If they just pretended to want to harm the plant, no reaction.
I’ve often thought that Hubbard was just trying to imitate others with his “plant experiments” using the E-Meter. Obviously a plant does not have the necessary sweat glands. But in the famous picture of Hubbard with the tomato he has jabbed the crocodile clips into the fruit!
It seems unlikely that any actual testing could be done with such an arrangement, but who knows. There are plants that move in response to sunlight, others that trap insects by closing their leaves, others that release toxic chemicals (nicotine) when attacked, so maybe there is more to plant life than we know.
But it could all be yet another example of confirmation bias and misinterpretation of random variations.
Mike, you wrote:
theta bops, rock slams, F/N’s, Floating T/A’s, correction lists, instant reads, raising needle, falling needle,,,,,,,,,,,,,
It’s all so interesting, however when somebody can produce a “clear” and then a “OT”, why I’ll change my view from it’s a hoax to Wow, Scientology is great, until then ain’t gonna happen, it happened once, not again.
It ain’t a religion and it ain’t science, and the two certainly don’t meet in scientology. Shoot even the fat boy Hubbard said he failed and he isn’t coming back. I wish all SO would get that memo, and just go home. DM can stay at Int Base and deal with mudslides.
Stephen Kent also did an extensive webpage about the e-meter
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/E-Meter/
Well worth reading! 🙂
Works or not works. My thoughts are confidentiality. Is what I say going to used against me? Would HIPAA be in place?
“Wall” — Therein lies the major problem with scientology; I don’t believe HIPPA would apply, because scientology is currently considered a religion and not a medical entity from a legal perspective.
No On The Wall HIPPA doesn’t apply to scamology. I consulted on that Bill and scamology is NOT a medical/scientific procedure.
Thanks, Bruce, for the insightful essay concerning a subject upon which $cn’s claims of being based on empirical science fundamentally rests.
Since “mental mass” and aberrative “charge” aren’t theorized by Elron to be stored in the hands, or in any other unique region of the body either, using the e-meter in ways that would eliminate the artifacts of hand sweating, variable grip strength and movement should work to eliminate those non-significant causes of needle change behavior and tone arm fluctuation.
Indeed, if Elron’s theory is correct, then eliminating those causally insignificant artifacts would make those changes which are “spiritually based” easier to detect and less fraught with potential error for the auditor. One way of accomplishing that would be to employ the same simple method that you describe Don Breeding using, which involved the use of sub-dermally inserted needle electrodes, rather than hand-held soup can electrodes. If Elron’s hypotheses regarding “mental mass” and “charge” are correct, then using instruments and methods which are designed to remove as many of these confounding artifacts of responsivity as possible is obviously the best course of action here.
However, instead of pursuing that fairly obvious and logically sound approach to the whole endeavor, Elron took the pseudo-science off-ramp very early on in the development of his very inventive, but entirely bogus cosmology and never looked back as his off-road explorations took him further and further away from rational thought, empirical science and common sense.
Instead of engaging in the kind of standard empirical research which might have helped him to refine his theory, Elron went on his own space opera version of snipe hunting, which was hilariously captured for posterity in 1952 in one of Elron and Mary Sue’s whackiest-ever audio tapes, entitled “Electropsychometric Scouting: Battle of the Universes” (see here for the audio tape and more on this key subject http://tonyortega.org/2014/06/17/rare-tape-reveals-how-l-ron-hubbard-really-came-up-with-scientologys-space-cooties/comment-page-1/ ).
For those “pro-Tech” folks who continue to believe that $cn contains valid, reliable and effective means of spiritual advancement, the opportunity to finally reconcile Elron’s e-meter theory with empirical science still exists. So, why not roll up your sleeves and get busy sorting out fact from fancy here? E
Thanks Bruce. I must admit the technical stuff about electricity and other stuff that “buzzes along a wire” with a technical life and a dictionary of its own leaves me in the dust for the most part but I followed along with your article better than I thought I would.
I too audited for years. At first I thought the emeter was a serious thing that required great study and careful practice, used over and over for time experience and constant correction to master it. BUT MASTER IT – YOU MUST!
That changed over the years as I finally started to relax with it. And now I think it’s the most over hyped piece of delusion ever presented. Space cootie tek convinced me of that, it’s nonsense! Up to that time I thought the emeter was essential to correct some serious mis-emotional stuff in others I “personally assumed was corrected” with listing tech and an emeter. That experience I cannot explain, nor do I want to either but something happened which made the person feel better about something that was really bugging them. The meter assisted me to tell them what it was. But overall that is such a small percentage part of my experience I don’t rate it as proof of anything. Especially considering that list correction in an ongoing activity as one progresses along the never ending runway to the upper Bridge to Nowhere.
I still think Hubbard presented some interesting things and questions about life but anything past the serious formation of his organisation and the way he wrote policy, introduced the SO, and then put it all in the mind numbing bullshit category of a cult. If there is anything interesting in Scientology it disappeared in the spiritual quicksand of organised Scientology.
Thanks again. It seems to clarify my opinion, you simply can’t take Scientology seriously, and now an expert on electronics with experience from within the Church the says pretty much the same but it technical terms.
Maybe someday, someone will come up with a Dictionary of Bullshit, if they do, Scientology will have a whole section of its own. I guess another way of saying it, ‘if you embark on a journey you should have a destination to go to, Scientology doesn’t give you one.
Scientology really should give the money back!
I find it amusing how so many people attempt to debunk how the e-meter works. I also have an Electronics Engineering Technologist diploma with years of work at IBM, and so I have some background in the subject. What all the naysayers miss regarding the reads on the e meter, is that there is a great variety of reads, different ‘thoughts’ create DIFFERENT reads, such as a Theta-bob, Rock Slams, slow rises and falls, etc. AND, each of these type of reads can be produced by the individual deliberately creating the thoughts necessary to produce those reads. It can be demonstrated anytime by anyone who knows what they are doing. A good source of how to deliberately produce those reads can be found on the ‘Reality Scale’ in the book 08.
So, all you technical geniuses out there who ‘know’ he e-meter is fake, how do you explain that when you contact an evil purpose or intention, you get a rock slam, RS, and no other thought does so, or when you create the thought of ‘getting out’ or some such you get the Theta bop and no other thought does so, and none confront causes the needle to rise, and so on. Please enlighten me.
Oh … also, how do you explain the instant read?
I have given up all kinds of “evil purposes” and meter did NOTHING. Explain that bob.
If the meter didn’t react at all, zero, who knows why, broken probably.
Wrong Bob. The meter was in working order. The point is that it does NOT function as Hubbard said. Until you can get rid of that brain washing you will never move forward and discover what IS
Mike, this is my bad. I tampered with your e-meter. Now, every time you turn it on, it will laugh. And it won’t stop laughing until you pull the plug. I’m sorry…
Bob G, the meter is not fake. Maybe you are addressing others with your question.
The E-Meter shows physiological phenomena in the body that are associated with arousal. There are many forms of these phenomena, but no need to ascribe any of them to mystical or spiritual causes. They show reactions in the body that happen when you think certain thoughts for example, or get pinched.
The point is that Hubbard thought these phenomena proved something about the spirit or how the mind works. He thought that the responses were from a direct connection to the mind. They are not. They are physiological reactions that occur when the mind is operating. Maybe a fine distinction, but I think it is an important one.
If you could really measure mental masses that would prove that they exist and confirm Hubbard’s ideas. But you can’t, so all that is proved is that certain thoughts are associated with certain reactions.
So an auditor can suggest sexually abuse which is normal to bring a reaction either way positive or negative. And slowly turn the conversation into something negative? Obviously I’m not or was I a scientologist…..just wondering?
If the auditor brings up sexual abuse, and there is a reaction, it has to be sorted out as to whether the reaction is to the idea of sexual abuse or because the person has been abused or has been an abuser. They phrase the questions in such a way that if there is an instantaneous reaction right at the end of the question they will take it up, and if the reaction does not happen right at the end of the question they assume there is nothing there and don’t take it up.
So there are techniques to try to avoid the situation where someone is reacting but not to the exact question. Like making the question specific: “Have you ever eaten an apple?” If somebody was horrified at the idea of eating it might go: “Have you ever eaten (big reaction) an apple?(no reaction) and the whole question would not be taken up for further questions.
And then Bruce, there are whole narratives written by LRH that you are then supposed to audit and get reads on as part of your whole track. I got some reads alright. My brain said, this is bullshit and reacted accordingly. My central nervous system works just fine, thank you.
I feel sorry for those who were convinced that the meter was reading on something that actually happened to them.
“He thought that the responses were from a direct connection to the mind. They are not. They are physiological reactions that occur when the mind is operating. Maybe a fine distinction, but I think it is an important one.”
Bruce, what LRH said and what you are saying are, for all practical purposes the same thing: there are physiological reactions (needle reactions) occuring when the mind is operating.
Whether the connection is “direct” or “indirect” is something to research. It hasn’t been proved in any direction. And opinions might vary as to what is to be considered “direct” or “indirect”.
“Reads” might very well be different and distinct needle patterns depending on the nature (emotion) of the thought. I know, for example, the F/Ns have ALSO occurred when there isn’t any “emotional release” happening as such, like in an ARCx. I also know that there are times when the needle should have floated but didn’t. But these are exceptions to the rule, IMHO. Most of the times a moment of release (the cognition, feeling good, happy, etc) is accompanied by an F/N. And most of the times a moment of emotional tension is accompanied by fall of the needle in the exact moment that the subject is touched.
With the above comment I don’t mean to validate LRH’s “research” in any way, shape or form. I am only saying that he might have been into something that NEEDS further research by people who know what they are doing. We should not certainly dismiss it all. That wouldn’t be the best scientific approach neither. This subject of the E-meter need a proper research before arriving at any conclusions.
Maybe it’s about which chemicals cause which reactions of the needle. I’m gonna vote for dopamine causing F/Ns. 😉
T-Marie, that’s a pretty cogent conjecture.
Thanks for this and your other comments while I was in blissful slumber. It looks like you have studied the phenomena more deeply than I, from the neurological point of view.
The book that really opened my eyes was “The Memory Illusion” by Dr. Julia Shaw, forensic psychologist. She relates how she is able to literally create memories in a person (in a clinical setting, as an experimental technique). The procedure is so similar to what is done in session that it boggles the mind.
Bruce, it wasn’t until I read your post that I put it all together, really. Thanks for the post!
Some of Dr. Shaw’s work was included in my studies. I’ll check the book out though, because I did see how the concept played right into auditing/training.
An aside: why is training 50% of the gains? Because that’s where you learn what you’re supposed to come up with in session.
I don’t subscribe to the theory that all emotional manifestations are just the product of either brain chemistry or gland secretions, though those 2 factors are related to emotion in some way, but mostly as a result of the emotional state of the individual and not as a causative agent itself. There are more and more social/mental scientists today that see the phenomena of the human emotion and the mind as totally independent from the body structure, though the can affect the body.
Personally I think that “function” (what something does or how it behaves) is more important or a senior factor in research than “structure” (“why” something works and do what it does). Establishing a pattern of needle reactions to specific and distinct emotional states, is more important and comes first than establishing the structural mechanics of why and how it happens.
Most researches in science have developed from function to structure in that order. Well known examples are electromagnetism, Fluid Mechanics, Optics, etc. We started to observe and establish patterns of manifestations, and then as the decades went by, we started to recognize the structure behind it (electrons, photons, etc).
Thetaclear, I would have said just about the same thing until I studied the intricacies of our central nervous system. I think the difference lies in how we analyze and interpret these chemical reactions/stimuli/etc. We CAN change those chemical reactions through different processes, and yes, I feel that auditing certain basic things like “rudiments” in a certain way is one of many ways to do that.
It’s too bad LRH didn’t educate himself fully in what he was messing with, because he really could have come up with a viable therapy like many other “scientists” have.
” … But you can’t, so all that is proved is that certain thoughts are associated with certain reactions.”
That’s all you need.
There is nothing spiritual or mystical about how the emeter works; it detects an influence in the person holding onto the cans, that’s it.
What cannot be explained is how the same needle reaction occurs with the same thought or type of thought. Why not address that? Why is it that evil purps etc. produce a rock slam, goals produce a rocket read, efforts to exteriorize produce a theta bop; those are the subjects that need scrutiny, no confront causes the needle to rise, and so forth. If anyone here denies that those reads and considerations don’t exist, or are not in some way related, then they have no clue whatsoever.
Anyone who has handled those meters in sessions, and I have for well over 10,000 hours, know the truth of what I say.
Since we now know, as a result of 70+ years of neuroscience research – performed by thousands of qualified scientists and reported in millions of peer-reviewed journal articles – that what we experience at the phenomenal level of our conscious minds is enabled by and causally dependent upon the living brain, the only reason to even consider dualist interpretations of those same phenomena is if they lead to falsifiable hypotheses that can be put to the test through empirical research.
But I’m willing to be a whole lot less persnickety here and lower the bar of proof. So, just as soon as Bob C. and some other “pro-Tech” individual can reliably demonstrate any of those truly marvelous super powers – such as stable exteriorisation with full perceptics – that are supposed to be standardly attained on the OT levels, or any of the truly miraculous promised benefits of going clear, then I’ll be the first to say, “Hmmm, there appears to be something here that is objectively demonstrable, but completely defies the known laws of physics…we should seriously look into it!”.
Since $cn has had more than a half century to prove its claims, yet has utterly failed to do so, I think that it’s fairly safe to conclude that it hasn’t been able to because those claims are false.
Of course, every once in awhile truly momentous discoveries are made which DO completely revolutionize our understanding of the most fundamental laws of physics. however, the trouble for $cn there is that they NEVER do so through someone’s mere assertion, unsupported theories and unreplicated research…which is all Elron ever did!
You’re completely off the subject.
Not so much, I just put it in a way that didn’t communicate well for you. Here. let me give it another, less wordy try.
You’re making a reliability argument for the e-meter as an effective tool for its intended based on reliability. Most of your opponents, including myself, are making a validity argument against it.
If $cn auditing doesn’t actually work to give Oatees any of those marvelous, promised super powers – like,the ability to be exterior from your body – then the terms you use in describing what you believe this or that pattern of needle movement signifies and measures – such as the theta-bop pattern indicating that the thetan is trying to go “exterior” – isn’t valid to begin with because there is no such thing out here in the real world of science.
So, you’re absolutely right, the e-meter can demonstrate some very interesting and uniquely identifiable patterns of needle movement – so it can be reliable, in the skilled user’s hands. But to use it for the detection of imaginary things, like BTs – as if needle movement can prove that you’re haunted – is frankly, just fucking nuts. But more importantly, it flunks the scientific validity test in that fundamental way.
But please don’t let me rain on your parade here, sir. Continue to pass down Elron’s Holu Tech to the legions of young folks clamoring to come aboard and take over the reins out their in Indy Land.
“…because there is no such thing out here in the real world of science.” One thing I keep always closely in mind when the word “science” comes up is that science is always and forever changing. Quantum mechanics and quantum physics have shown us things that PRiOR science and countless experiments “proved” untrue. So my “uncertainty” button is always alive and well. What we KNOW with certainty today and easily be altered by new information tomorrow. I think that’s called “learning.”
Totally with you there…science is more of a dynamic process than it is a thing.
Science is all about trying to falsify hypotheses, NOT trying to prove them…as Elron constantly did by making up data, lying at all times, altering key operational definitions,such as “Clear,” and generally doing whatever it took to con folks into believing in his space opera gibberish.
The flaw in your position is you start off with the premise that the subjects are false, therefore of course you come to the necessary conclusion that the emeter reads are false since they ‘detect things’ that don’t exist. That about sum it up?
Bob g that’s because it is false. And fucken nuts. Enough said . Or better yet how many fingers and I holding up. Use your ot powers on that.
bob g, when there’s no actual proof of the original “subject,” then it’s valid to start off with the premise that it’s false. Unfortunately, here we’re in the position of trying to have a discussion about a subject for which there isn’t even proper proof to begin with, but which needs to be exposed because it has been adopted without the necessary research into its validity.
The actual fundamental “flaw,” is that it’s up to you to provide research and proof regarding various reads and what they indicate, how consistent and reproducible (not just twice in a row) they are, and so on, to begin with. If for instance someone made the claim to you that tarot cards were an accurate way of reading thoughts and feelings (which a significant number of people, actually believe – and which could possibly be true), you wouldn’t feel obligated to have to explain the significance of tarot card layouts, including some that may occasionally occur twice in a row, would you?
Bob, I actually started out believing that those subjects were true. It was only after seeing first-hand that the promised super power abilities were NEVER in evidence that I went from believing to questioning to disbelieving.
Decades of more mainstream studies, subsequent to exiting the cult, gave me the intellectual knowledge base and skill set to totally dismantle the claim that $cn is any kind of a valid science.
If your wish is to see that the “good” parts of $cn are preserved and continued, then you and your Indy friends need to get right on empirically validating whatever claims you folks are making for these processes now.
I’m not trying to be facetious here, I’m just sayin’ that since Elron never went the way of science, you’re totally free to frame your own testable hypotheses in whatever that you like.
With regards to your excellent results with Hubbardism, I’m glad that your experiences with the Holy Tech were better than the vast majority of others, including myself, whose results with Elron’s system were nowhere near as good as yours.
Damn Bruce, I wish I would have read this comment before writing my huge post on chemical reactions in the body… LOL
Bob G, what you fail to mention here is sometimes it takes hours and hours to produce these reads on someone, and who is to say they are not random?
Never has any auditor or trainee, in the decades I was on tech lines (as a Case Supervisor, mostly) consistently produced all needle reactions listed on every single person that came to hold the cans. More commonly this guy or that guy was better able to produce a particular read (for course drills).
Regarding the R/Ses, they have been reported all over, not just on evil purposes, not by a LONG shot.
Please explain, on an electronic level, how passing a current through someones hands is able to read thought in their head?
I have no idea what the point of your post is.
“Please explain, on an electronic level, how passing a current through someones hands is able to read thought in their head?”
If this is the totality of what you thought was happening … I don’t know what to say, except that you completely had/have no idea what was going on in sessions.
“Regarding the R/Ses, they have been reported all over, not just on evil purposes, not by a LONG shot.”
Nope. The confusion was not knowing the difference between dirty needles and rock slams.
Bob G,
I think I miswrote. The question should have been “Please explain, on an electronic level, how passing a current via the hands is able to read a thought?”
Regarding your comment on R/Ses and Dirty Needles, that’s just straight up false.
Rock slams did not only show up on evil purposes.
What training have you done in Scn? Were you an auditor? How long did you audit? Do you still audit?
(My Scn training is: Flag trained Class VI – Full SHSBC, post GAT, Pro Sup and Word Clearer, Cramming Officer, Case Supervisor. My last post in the Sea Org was OT Elig C/S. Pre-GAT I was trained up to Grad V C/S. Also OT V). On tech lines IN THE SEA ORG from 1991 to 2004.
Curious as to where you are coming from with these comments about R/Ses.
Class VIII with over 10,000 hours in the chair, mostly at AO and ASHO.
“Please explain, on an electronic level, how passing a current via the hands is able to read a thought?”
This comment indicates to me you have no idea on the underlying theory of how the emeter works, regardless of your stated ‘status’.
The emeter doesn’t read ‘thoughts’, it picks up a change in the resistance to electrical flow in the body, that’s it.
I can spout the same Hubbard stuff as you, Bob G, I just chose not to. I could give you the same answers you are giving me (the Hubbard answer). But I am looking BEYOND what Hubbard says about his toy.
You still have not answered my questions, but instead insinuate they are stupid questions.
How about taking Hubbards information OUT OF THE EQUATION, then answer my questions?
Has there ever been a successful independent study of the e-meter? Or do you still just take Hubbards word on everything?
I still stand by the fact that all R/Ses do not only came from evil purposes. R/Ses show up anywhere, anytime. Supposedly to get rid of them, or run them out, evil purposes would have to be found and run (which are addressed on Expanded Dianetics for non-Clears and OT V for Clears). Not every reported R/S was directly reported from an evil purpose the preclear said.
Bob babled, “The emeter doesn’t read ‘thoughts’, it picks up a change in the resistance to electrical flow in the body, that’s it.”
No, that was falsified by sticking probes INTO the body and attaching to the emeter. basically no resistance and no reads.
What we DO know is that it measures change in resistance in the dead skin layer between the cans.
You must have read my mind lol
Yes, I too have seen such phenomena and put some of it into practice without ill effects and many have attested to feeling better about sitting opposite me while I read their needle and acted per the tech. The lower grades stuff sure seems helpful to most and the emeter played its part. People generally liked having their rudiments done and some of the simpler actions applied and done with good intentions for and to them.
I guess, when you add lies, duping and criminal intent into anything the reactions you get swallow up and taint everything. I have developed a more generalized approach to Scientology now and let a bit of emotion guide my responses which may appear contradictory. Being made a fool of and being grossly ripped off does that sort of thing. But regarding the emeter – honestly, what does it really matter? If it indeed backed up and verified a path to spiritual enlightenment was obtainable by its use, well great, I’m in! But it doesn’t, organised Scientology is a dangerous criminal scam and damages people. It claims the emeter is essential for your spiritual salvation. The fact an experienced operator of it “can be made to do certain things with it more or less constantly” is beside the point imo.
My comment above to Bruce has (relative) truth to me, the Bridge of Scientology doesn’t go anywhere – what’s a emeter got to do with it apart from being a integral part of a major scam?
Some criminals use firearms, what does the ballistical and technical aspect of the weapon they use have to do with it? Fear is its purpose and it’s a means to an end in their case, but most times it doesn’t even need to be loaded. But take a hunter or soldier and his aspirations of a firearm’s use and then the technical stuff starts being relevant – it goes in the direction of producing a legitimate product or service.
Peace to you Bob.
Yes, the degradation of the organization eventually worked it’s way into the tech delivery, where robots replaced understanding. No one can win in an environment like that, regardless of any aids that may have once been of benefit.
Bruce, thanks for the article. I have totally “beat” the emeter during sec checking.
And I ran incidents that only came up after listening to LRH whole track tapes.
It’s power of suggestion. Including the whole BTs and clusters BS.
Thanks Bruce for your insightful article.
I always thought that the idea of a dead female/male body having the same reading of resistance 2.0/3.0 as being odd. Electrical current doesn’t care what is on the other end, mass is mass. Why would a very large female body have a lower resistance than a very small male body? Just one of those unruly facts that you tend to overlook when you want to believe in something.
When Hubbard had the meter attached to that poor helpless tomato plant, I always wondered what he was trying to prove. A cleared ketchup maybe?
It’s sad to think that as the world advances with simple, high quality EEG technology (Emotiv for example) that Scientology will forever be stuck with a Wheatstone bridge tech, invented in the early 1800’s.
I’m just glad that I didn’t pay over $5000 dollars for the ultra, ultra, super-duper, high definition Hubbard E-meter. (Another one of those other weird things, branding everything with Hubbard this and Hubbard that… he was an extreme, malignant narcissist.)
Very interesting.
“I am not saying that there are no electro-magnetic phenomena associated with the body, mind or spirit. I am just saying that the meter does not and cannot measure such phenomena.”
I agree with most of the points on your article, Bruce, but you are jumping to conclusions in the above quote. Galvanic Skin Response Psychology is not a new field of research, and many studies have been conducted regarding the relationship among electromagnetic phenomena associated with the mind, body or spirit; the emotions associated with them, and GSR meter reactions. I can quote you a few of such studies if you want me to.
I am not saying that there is a complete research about it that has proved conclusively that thought phenomena is measurable. But saying that “it does not and cannot measure such phenomena” is, IMHO, a little too much of an opinion, and not necessarily a scientific fact. More research is needed to arrive to ANY conclusions about it.
That’s one of my strongest protest about what I consider to be one of the most destructive consequences of having been a Scientologist; that we all have the tendency to dismiss too easily any area of research in which LRH worked (GSR meters, past lives, thought phenomena, etc, etc) because of the aversion he created on us due to his “researches” having been so unscientific, dogmatic, and delusional.
I think that we must watch for that phenomena, or I am afraid that we might be denying ourselves the great benefits of studying such areas from an open-minded approach. That LRH “researched” anything doesn’t mean that those areas of research are invalid or not beneficial. We can still research those areas, but this time from a scientific and a “let’s compare and share our researches” approach. ANY subject that LRH “researched” ALREADY existed as prior REAL researches from REAL scientists. We just didn’t know about it. But now, most of us immediately – and sort of unconsciously – react to such subjects with rejection. And by doing so we might be losing the opportunity to study and apply subjects that might change our lives for the better. Just my opinion, Bruce.
Good point Thetaclear.
Thanks Oliver!
I would love to see the research you referenced above. Would you please supply links for study? Thanks.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1421294?seq=2#page_scan_tab_contents
Google search this :
“neumann and blanton early history of electrodermal research.pdf”
A pdf link of the article should appear as the first item on the webpage. The article gives a chronological study of the history of electrodermal research especially applied to psychology. It is very interesting indeed. Thinking that LRH was a pioneer in this area, is like thinking that he was a pioneer in studying past lives and the mind. He was not. In fact, he wasn’t a pioneer at almost anything that he ever did. So let’s study these subjects in a relaxed way, shall we? 🙂
http://altered-states.net/barry/newsletter225/
http://www.faim.org/measurement-of-the-human-biofield-and-other-energetic-instruments
https://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/the-history-corner-the-galvanometer#.WVsqHJnD_qA
Ok, this is the last link that I am posting about the subject. By posting I am absolutely not asserting anything beyond the FACT that this subject is being studied since quite some time ago, long before LRH was even born. I am not saying that there are conclusive studies about it. All I am saying is that this IS a very valid area of research that just CAN’T be that easily dismissed. But of course, if we only relate it to LRH – as SO MANY ex(es) do – then of course the subject becomes IMMEDIATELY not even worthy of s serious study.
I don’t know about you guys and gals, but personally I couldn’t care less about what LRH did or did not. But I am not throwing away my dreams of researching/studying those areas, and ascertaining BY MYSELF and FOR myself whether or not it could be useful for others. To hell with LRH. The right attitude is not a close-minded skepticism that negates everything while waiting for others to “prove it”. That’s mental laziness. Skepticism is part of science ONLY if it is ALSO accompanied by an open-minded minded approach to the new and the unknown.
Absolutely correct. Have I lived before? It certainly makes rational sense to me. The concept that we only have one shot at “life” has always struck me as unfair and inane. Is there a “god”? Given the incredible complexities of the human body and brain, my thoughts simply won’t wrap around “no”, though my take is simply that “somewhere out there’ there is an incredible “intelligence” functioning..or functioned. Just *my* take on things.
Thank you for your time in finding these links you use for part of your research. It was appreciated. But I was hoping you had found some research I had not run into when looking through other items not related. One link was to a person who had a vested interest as he was selling instrumentation to support his assertions. The other links were good but again not actually processes and documentation on how they arrived at their own ideas. For now, we will just have to agree to disagree about the whether this will be prudent and beneficial research beyond what is already there. But we certainly can have a cordial discussion about the subject.
I am now going somewhat off of this topic as what is really the reason for Mike’s blog. I can see the e-mater being beneficial for individual help but, for now, only because of how the body reacts to fear and happiness through contact; certainly I can not subscribe to LRH’s notions (not research) of the meter being affected by a ‘mass of a thought’.
But what makes me agree with many others that $cn must be exposed is the horrendous spying, family breakups, brainwashing members which allow them to to both do unethical and morally wrong work against others. While $cn hides behind the first amendment and has righteous indignation for being so suppressed, $cn punishes people in demeaning ‘labor camps’ which people believe they must accept or their immortal souls will be forfeited. And then there are others who then attempt to rewrite (rathbun) what has been established horrendous deeds through the many people who have escaped $cn’s clutches. And while not definitively proved, but I suspect all this is enriching top people (and LRH at one time) within $cn with vasts amounts of money, privileges, and other material advantages (certailnly compared to the SO who toil for nothing other than not to achieve spiritual gains).
Rant off!
I respect that you have your opinion, but when it comes to science, words and concepts will have a specific meaning. “Research” is a word that gets bandied about commonly, but when you use this word in a scientific context, it means that rigorous action has taken place. Simply reading about a subject, following internet links, and looking through references at a library, does not constitute scientific research. When one makes claims such as Hubbard did, one is expected to have formed a hypothesis, developed a methodology, indicated controls and variables, recorded data and observations, and to have objectively drawn conclusions. If the methodology is sound, other people will be able to follow your “recipe” and get the same results.
I have no background in electronics at all. I have been in a Radio Shack, and I can successfully hook up a PS 4 to a TV, set my DVR, and eat a slice of pizza simultaneously; but that’s the extent of my electronic knowledge. However, I do know that a machine is only the sum of its parts. For car afficiandos, that’s hard to accept, but we can’t attach human emotions to a machine and expect to be objective. A measurement device will measure what it is built to measure. That’s not a matter of opinion. A thermometer will not measure atmospheric pressure. A tire gauge will not tell you how much gas you have in your vehicle. An X-ray machine will not tell you how much money you have in the bank. A device that measures physiological responses will not read your mind, nor measure your “aura.”
I’m glad for this article, and would like to read more like it. Bruce gave me a very easy-to-understand lesson in electronics–the sign of an intelligent teacher is someone who can break things down simply, and not try to talk over your head. 😉 I was just telling someone this past week, that no one should ever volunteer to take a polygraph test. There’s a reason why they are inadmissible in court: they don’t really measure what they claim to measure. Polygraph tests don’t detect lies; they detect physiological responses. Certain physiological responses have been shown to correlate with lying, it is true. However, those responses can also occur for other reasons. A person can be asked a question and respond to it truthfully, but can simultaneously be considering a separate thought and react physiologically to that thought instead.
An e-meter works for someone because they’ve been predisposed to believe it works before they are even “put on the cans.” There is a build-up in what they can expect from an auditing session. They are taught to audit before they are given an e-meter. The suggestion that the e-meter is a device that measures thoughts is already planted, and then they are given the “pinch test” to “prove” it. When I first saw this occur, I thought, “What a sales pitch!” It’s not science, it’s scripted. Most people go along with demonstrations even when it requires us to suspend disbelief to do so. It’s like visiting the fortune teller at the fair, or playing with a ouija board at a party; you don’t believe it, but it’s fun or interesting to play along. So, we clear our minds and recall the moment of the pinch…and we have the same physiological skin response and that is measured on the e-meter. From then on, we are expected to believe the machine can read our mind, and because we believe it, we tell the auditor, (and the machine) what our thoughts are. It’s circular reasoning!
My point is that there is science behind the e-meter; it just doesn’t do what is advertised. That is because it’s not built to do what it’s advertised to do, and no actual science took place in order to determine that it does.
“An e-meter works for someone because they’ve been predisposed to believe it works before they are even “put on the cans.” ”
Not true. Anyone who has done the pinch test who knows nothing whatsoever about the e-meter can attest to that. Also, “consider the events of today” demonstrate that a specific thought can produce identical reads, all of which are done on persons who have never ever come across an e-meter before.
Your comment that people can be preconditioned to ‘see’ something that is not there is true.
I totally agree with you, Kerf, and that was EXACTLY my point : that we NEED to do research before arriving to ANY conclusions in any directions. I wasn’t validating LRH’s “research”, but neither I can accept conclusions not based an ACTUAL research. The subject of the E-meter need proper investigation before jumping to any conclusions. But I agree that it doesn’t exactly work as LRH claimed.
Thetaclear, your approach sounds good to me. Just because Hubbard said something does not make it false or true. We have to rely on actual research to find out.
An interesting point – I think the first versions of “How the E-Meter Works” film had the line (as I recall) “There are fields of energy around the body. Such have even been photographed using Kirlian Photography”. But the latest version says “infra-red photography”. Possibly this is because Kirlian photography has been shown to have more to do with high voltage discharge phenomena that any fields around the body. But infra-red just shows a cloud of body heat, it looks kind of like a field but has nothing to do with anything except body heat.
None of the this really proves or disproves the concept of electromagnetic phenomena associated with the body. It is pretty intriguing but so far not well understood as far as I know.
“Thetaclear, your approach sounds good to me. Just because Hubbard said something does not make it false or true. We have to rely on actual research to find out”
Thanks Bruce; that was exactly my point.
“An interesting point – I think the first versions of ‘How the E-Meter Work’ film had the line (as I recall) ‘There are fields of energy around the body. Such have even been photographed using Kirlian Photography’. But the latest version says ‘infra-red photography’. Possibly this is because Kirlian photography has been shown to have more to do with high voltage discharge phenomena that any fields around the body. But infra-red just shows a cloud of body heat, it looks kind of like a field but has nothing to do with anything except body heat.”
I understand, and there aren’t that many actual scientific tests that prove or measure an electromagnetic field around the body. Mainly because most scientists doesn’t want to get involved in what might be considered as a “mystical area” by mainstream science, but not necessarily because they do not embrace the subject. But the idea of an electromagnetic field around the body is not a new idea at all, and has been around since before LRH. Recently this subject of “Biomagnetism” is being taken more seriously.
http://engineering.dartmouth.edu/events/biomagnetism-magnetic-fields-produced-by-the-human-body/
“None of the this really proves or disproves the concept of electromagnetic phenomena associated with the body. It is pretty intriguing but so far not well understood as far as I know.”
I agree; it is still not well understood. That’s why we should not dismiss it lightly. Remember that we were using in practical ways the theoretical concepts of electromagnetism way before we had mathematically understood the subject, and even before the discovery of the electron and the photon. So, many observable phenomena points out to the possibility of a field of energy surrounding the body. We must come up with equipment sensitive enough to conduct a proper research.
It seems that there are 3 areas to this e-meter business:
– what the e-meter is, i.e. its electronics, circuitry, etc
– why it reacts to certain words, thoughts etc.
– the interpretation of those reactions.
The first point is black and white and I don’t think there’s any argument there.
The second point I don’t think is answered just by attributing the reactions to sweat glands. Phenomena like persistent F/N’s, Rock Slams, Theta Bops, etc are not so easily explained. I dont think it’s measuring “mental mass” but I still haven’t heard a credible explanation.
The third point is controversial. It is pretty easy to fool the meter to create an F/N. On the other hand, auditors with thousands of hours under the belt can confidently tell you that the meter provides valuable guidance.
Some people in the FreeZone have experimented with electrodes instead of cans, holding cans underwater, footplates, etc. It would be interesting to hear from some of them.
As an aside, I believe Carl Jung was the first to experiment with a type of meter and detect the response to various words read aloud. It’s too easy to say that because Hubbard used something it is inherently untrue.
nomonom, if any scamologist were trained in science enough they could simply research and find out what is happening. Since Hubbard did NO such research it might help the subject. (using “auditors” anecdotal views is USELESS in this endeavour). One MUST be methodical and KNOW HOW to perform tests. If Indies were REALLY interested to find out what the emeter was doing (if anything) along this line they would fund such testing.
“But now, most of us immediately – and sort of unconsciously – react to such subjects with rejection. ”
Not really. I react the same way I react to any claim that falls into the realm of science. Show me the the documented scientific testing in full. AND, extraordinary claims REQUIRE extraordinary evidence.
“Not really. I react the same way I react to any claim that falls into the realm of science. Show me the the documented scientific testing in full. AND, extraordinary claims REQUIRE extraordinary evidence.”
I have no disagreements with that Wynski, and in fact, we think along a similar line of thought on that. My point was – and I feel there you DO understand what I mean exactly – that many excellent areas of research, such as GSR meters, past lives, thought phenomena, etc; are frequently dismissed by ex Scientologists solely on the basis of “It should be false and unimportant because LRH ‘researched’ it and worked with it”. And most of those subjects (in fact, ALL of them) are PRIOR to LRH. But most of us had not come into contact with them before Scn, at least not to any noticeable degree.
I agree with your statement that Freezoners should fund researches on the area of the E-meter and work as a coordinated effort, sharing and comparing such studies. I mean, what got us interested in Scn in the first place were EXACTLY those subjects, right? So why then are many of us so eager to dismiss them instead of doing the proper research about them, and ascertaining whether or not they can be put to good use for society? That’s a more healthy attitude, IMHO.
I like your comment. I found the R6 stuff and valences etc worthy of note and feel there’s something of merit in that line of observation – I can see people take on “roles,” even myself. It was dropped by organised Scientology like a sack of potatoes. So much for the term ‘standard’ being raved about in 1965. Scientology’s tech is a mismash of information arranged to obtain money by lies & deceit. Deliver what they promise – what a joke that turned out to be.
Hubbard or the Cof$ doesn’t own a damn thing really if you assess it as an honest pursuit, it steals everything. even other’s knowledge and calls it it’s own sometimes, plus Hubbard’s still dead last I heard. Anything in it of value is a free as a bird thanks to the internet and the people who’ve been in and now out of it.
NB: “I” stands for “Intensité de Courant” (French), or Current Intensity
I studied Electrical Engineering and Amateur Radio.
Thank you for this Bruce. This provides a very good overview of how the E-meter works for never-ins. I’ve heard it called a “rudimentary lie detector” before, but this goes much more in-depth.
I don’t doubt that emotional stimuli can produce various effects on the body. It’s been studied pretty intensively. However, even the most sophisticated lie detectors these days can be manipulated, depending upon the nature of the questions and the belief of the subject undergoing the examination. And for the most part, any lie detector results are inadmissible as evidence in a court of law (at least in the US) due to this phenomenon (and that’s for the most sophisticated units, not including the “rudimentary” units such as the E-meter). There is a very good reason for this.
It possibly all ties into Hubbard’s pronouncement of “what is true for you is what is what you have observed to be true”. Going back to the modern-day lie detector machines, even if you are 100% guilty of committing a crime, if you truly believe that you never committed the crime (due to amnesia, for example), then you will likely register your denial of committing this crime as non-deceptive. It doesn’t determine the actual truth, only what the user believes to be the truth (even subconsciously).
The E-meter seems to work almost the same way. If you are told something over and over and over again (the slow and methodical “indoctrination” of scientology, including trillions of years of past lives), then you are likely to begin to truly believe it in the core of your consciousness. Once you reach that state of belief, then the E-meter (and even possibly the more sophisticated modern day lie detectors) is very likely to simply confirm your preconceived notions of what is true.
It doesn’t measure the actual “truth” of events that have transpired in reality. It only measures the “truth” of what someone is convinced is true, whether that “truth” is based on actual experiences in reality or a convincing belief of what they truly believe (or hope or fear) might be true.
Believe what you will, but I will never be convinced that the E-meter is “scientific”. And before any independents take issue with these comments from a “never-in Christian”……no, I cannot scientifically prove the existence of God or the fact that Jesus was the true son of God born of a virgin.
There’s a reason it’s called “faith” (i.e., religion), meaning we accept our beliefs based on something that cannot be independently verified, only a belief within ourselves (our “spirit”). Otherwise, if the validity of those beliefs could be confirmed and observed, it would simply be called “science”.
Thanks for your insightful article Bruce. As more and more information is made known, the cult’s days of undue influence lessen. Since V = I times R, we can extrapolate the following formula: SC = I times E, whereby Scientology contraction is proportional to Internet exposure.
Interesting article. I remember in my early days of training and auditing, the meter was a minor tool. It became more and more a major tool – dictating the truth of the matter – no matter what I actually believed.
In the 70’s, it was stressed that the “meter responded to the amount of ARC in the session” and that all one knows when he sees a read is that it read (it could be protest, false, etc). Therefore, I could say “no” or the auditor might just stop and say, “What’s happening?” and I could say “this is bullshit” or “I have my attention on….” and I was believed and audited accordingly. This allowed the auditing to go much more smoothly, especially if one had “a good auditor.”
Fast forward to 2005 when in a grand move of ignorance, betrayal of self-determinism and stupidity, I got back on OT VII. Every six months getting sec checked to make sure I was up to snuff created more and more tension and stress for not just me. The meter became the source of truth. The pounding away at my sense of truth, while watching an auditor read questions and assess buttons became more and more excruciating. Unfortunately for me, I was born with an intention to “just get through it” and that’s what drove me. BUT that drive cost me – so many things.
This is why I believe the whole religion should be shut down or at least denied 501c3. Because this “religion” does damage to the mind, the self-determinism of individuals, a sense of self and goodness, etc, and so much more. That’s not even counting the damage it does to families, friends, bank accounts, etc.
So back to the point, yea, reliance on the meter as a source of truth is stupid – is dangerously stupid.
Mary, there was a concerted effort from the 80s on to “find out what Ron really said” about everything from the meter to the administrative procedures to the Sea Org uniform, all subjects. It is a form of fundamentalism.
When he was alive, Ron had trusted helpers that dealt with lots of the details. After he went into hiding in the late 70s he was really insulated from the larger scene, and utterly panicked about the IRS judgements against him. Squeezing every penny of cash out of Scientology became the priority.
As he drifted more into unreality every day, his “trusted helpers” got into battles about their authority. Finally the most fundamentalist factions rose into power. Massive amounts of non-LRH issues, the Board Technical Bulletins and Board Policy Letters, were simply shredded.
The excuse was that “others had altered the Tech”, those others being mainly ones that Hubbard trusted earlier on.
But what really happened is politically powerful types just consolidated their power by jettisoning weaker ones. Like what happened to David Mayo.
Along with all this fundamentalism came all the harsh totalitarian rules that truly wrecked any slightest possible value in Scientology. As you say, in the 70s people would put the preclear first and do their best to help the person regardless of the rules. From the 80s on the rules were all and the preclear nothing. Then Dave added in the meticulously detailed and robotic training called Golden Age of Tech. Auditors were trained into a mechanical routine that works on a doll but not on a human.
Every religion has a choice – moderate and reach a larger audience, or radicalize and create a dedicated but tiny cadre of fanatical followers. Scientology is heading down the fundamentalist road. May it follow all the way and become like the Shakers – I think there is still one Shaker left but she is getting old.
Unfortunately, so true.
Thank you for posting this, Mike, and thanks to Bruce Ploetz for addressing the topic in a manner that is easily comprehended. As one who took a course called “Physics for Poets” in college, I am very appreciative of the author’s style.
Agreed — this was really well written, Bruce!
I am no apologist for Hubbard, believe me. But there are reads the meter makes that seem to be out of character with your explanation:
Take the persistent Floating Needle.
I think most who have experienced their own “persistent FN” would associate it with happy feelings, or euphoria, or even being vastly upset emotionally (the ARC break needle).
What would it be about those emotional states that would make the palms squirt out micro bursts of sweat in the slow, steady, rhythmic way?
My question is not necessarily to challenge your theory, but maybe it should be. Shouldn’t every theory should be falsifiable?
That’s a good question. I’ve seen this many times and that euphoria that went along with that persistent F/N or persistent TA F/N is not nothing.
Joe Doe. Here is a simple yet effective answer. I have had dial wide F/N’s while being upset and feeling lousy. I have had Dirty needle while happy as a clam could be.
ALWAYS fall back on scientific methodology.
I had a dirty needle once. But when I cleaned it up, it still used foul language.
Hi Wynski,
According to Scientology training materials, as I understand it, the floating needle is the same read as an ARC break needle. The way to determine “which” read is is is by the “indicators”, in other words, is the person smiling, happy seeming, etc, or is he glowering, sad, and so forth.
But my point is that what is it about these emotional states that causes the hands to do these microbursts of sweat, then does it evaporate at the exact same rate (the needle swinging back) then microwsweat, then evaporate, at “a slow, even, rhythmic pace”?
Additionally, Bruce tells us to look up “GSR” and “GSP”, but then admits to a major discrepancy, i.e. almost all the studies he has encountered talk of a one or two second delay in the response; such would be disregarded by a Scientology practitioner as they are looking for “instant reads.”
This “oddity” is somewhat brushed off with a speculation about silver sliver chloride electrodes being used in these studies instead of the Scientology soup cans.
Not only is this speculation, but it is sloppy scientific methodology. How can a soup can be more responsive or precise than a silver electrode?
NOTE to ALL who may comment. Please comment on the points I’m actually bringing up, and not try to say things like “oh so you believe the History of Man is true” or other logical fallacies.
You assume. FIRST do the scientific testing to rule out other factors and isolate that the “emotions” are causing anything. It is difficult and tedious to describe in detail as it takes several years to learn scientific testing methods.
the long and short John Doe is that you need to hire qualified people to do testing. It was NEVER done.
Wynsky, what you describe is an ARC Break Needle, which is you are F/Ning with bad indicators, or feeling bad.
No Cindy, I’m not. I know the difference.
Wynski, the definition of a read is supposed to include the PC’s indicators. (In other words, the meter is not enough – the auditor has to be observant. The meter is only one of many tools of the auditor, that is until the CofS screwed that up with robot auditors.)
Well, John, I am not advancing a new theory. Just pointing out the flaws in Hubbard’s theory. The burden of proof is on the originator.
As far as F/Ns go, those sweeping smooth but fairly random motions, I have always thought that they must represent a homeostatic state. One where the system is wandering between equally valid but slightly different settings, like an analog thermostat controlling a variable air volume system or a driver keeping the car at a set speed. A little accelerator, oops now we are going a few MPH to fast, ease up on the accelerator, a while later we are too slow, more accelerator and so on. No tests or proofs of this idea, it is just the conjecture that makes the most sense to me.
Fortunately we don’t have to understand that part to know that there is nothing spiritual about it.
I agree with most of what you wrote but I think the statement, “Fortunately we don’t have to understand that part to know that there is nothing spiritual about it.” is too absolutist.
“I agree with most of what you wrote but I think the statement, ‘Fortunately we don’t have to understand that part to know that there is nothing spiritual about it.’ It is too absolutist.”
I agree with you one that, Nomnom; way TOO absolutist!
Perhaps the statement might be: “Fortunately we don’t have to understand that part to know that there is nothing ‘inherently’ spiritual about it. Any spirituality comes from within the ‘driver’ alone.”
John Doe: “What would it be about those emotional states that would make the palms squirt out micro bursts of sweat in the slow, steady, rhythmic way?”
Another question is what makes the needle rock slam or theta bop – and do the same thing again when the same item is called out by the auditor.
Hopefully, Bruce will answer both of us and not someone else who will just brush off the question.
A good way to test that Miraldi is to eliminate the sweat glands from the equation (scientific methodology). Stick two probes UNDER the skin and directly into the body. THEN test for those “reads”. That will also test Hubbard assertions about the resistance of the human male & female body.
I’d like to see how Bruce explains rock slams and theta bops according to his theory – which is apparently based on the premise that nothing but body and brain are involved in the workings of the meter. If he can’t do so, then the theory is obviously debunked.
Actually not Marildi. That isn’t how a theory is falsified. SCIENTIFIC Testing done in lab controlled conditions falsifies NOT writing. If you had ANY science knowledge you wouldn’t make such insane comments.
Wynski, I was using the word “theory” loosely, and you didn’t even spot it. At best, Bruce has a hypothesis – but a hypothesis has to meet certain requirements of the scientific method, which include the following:
“Test the hypothesis by collecting more data to see if the hypothesis continues to show the assumed pattern. If the data does not support the hypothesis, it must be changed, or rejected in favor of a better one. In collecting data, one must NOT ignore data that contradicts the hypothesis in favor of only supportive data.”
http://www.oakton.edu/user/4/billtong/eas100/scientificmethod.htm
Bruce seems to be ignoring data that contradicts his hypothesis. This is another thing you should have spotted, since you claim to be so knowledgable about science.
Nope, Elron had the hypotheses, but instead of submitting them to any kind empirical research program of validation (because early independent research results didn’t support his claims), he merely asserted them as proven facts.
But here’s the real kicker: He suckered folks like you into believing he’d created some kind of alt science, or maha-science, that was somehow senior to mainstream science, when in reality he’d been pulling it from out his ass, non-stop, for many years.
COMPLETELY irrelevant marildi. YOU made a statement that was nutty and false regarding science when trying to challenge actual science.
At best you are a psychotic troll, at worst (since you support Marty and his attempt to obfuscate the crimes of the CoS) an actual criminal.
I don’t know if you were a criminal before scientology or became one while being brainwashed by it.
Wynski, you are demonstrating a very similar mind-set that you complain of that is in the cult. Perhaps you should do some more decompression.
marildi, you’re the one advancing or defending the underlying theory that the e-meter measures anything that has any meaning, or measures anything other than physiological (“body and brain”) affects. Bruce is just providing a critique of that theory, based on experience and scientific knowledge.
The burden of proof is on you, or the originator of the theory, and it remains unproven (if not debunked) until fundamental proof is provided – which it never has been. See the Burden of Proof fallacy, and also, begging the question.
Wynski, are you suggesting that sweat glands can resonate consistently at about 15 Hz?
1984, have you observed needle reactions at 15 Hz? (Trick question, because the needle is deliberately made to be too slow to show anything significantly above one Hertz).
I did a lot of testing using read recorders to see if it was necessary to reproduce reactions above one hertz and came to the conclusion that it was not. This was something that had to be done to create the Drills Simulator and other systems that transmit reads in a digital format. Like the Flag Land Base look-listen system.
So far no one has ever come to me complaining that there were reads that happened in a session that did not get recorded and transmitted to the Case Supervisor because my system was too slow. Or that rock slams or other “fast reads” were not showing up on the Briefing Course Co-audit System (Where the supervisor can see what is happening on the meter at any co-audit session in the room).
I also made an experimental meter that had adjustable controls for the speed of the needle response. You could make it fast, like the Volume Unit meters they use in audio work or really slow, make it loose so it swings around endlessly (they call this underdamped) or super tight so it springs to the setting and doesn’t swing about at all.
What I found with that setup was that tightening and speeding up the meter doesn’t change mental reactions at all, but makes the finger twitch and heartbeat reactions really annoying.
So by various tests and observations over the years I came to the conclusion that the physiological responses in the body to mental reactions are pretty slow.
I would estimate that an F/N would be about .5 to 1 Hz.
Below you are saying that a Theta-bop is several times a second. (the tick at the ends of a Theta-bop would need a faster response.
Perhaps our definitions are different. How would you define the maximum speed / response of the needle?
The needle mechanism is designed for a resonant frequency of one Hertz. In my response to Dan I might have mis-remembered about the theta bop. I have only seen one in session and didn’t have a stopwatch handy.
At any rate, the needle filters out anything above one Hertz just by its mechanical nature. It is not a sharp cut-off, you can still see a two Hertz wave but it will be cut down to one quarter of what it would be at a lower frequency below one Hertz.
The needle is under-damped, which means it will actually amplify reads that are around exactly one Hertz. This creates the swinging around that you see when you turn the meter on, for example. It will tend to sweep at its resonant frequency, one Hertz, just like any pendulum. But it is more damped than the pendulum in a clock so the swings will die down in five seconds or so.
If I recall correctly the F/Ns we did for the Drills Simulator are three seconds per sweep. So that would be .167 Hz. Normal reads are also similarly slow. If they were faster you would see the one Hertz swinging all the time as the needle struggles to keep up with them. You do see it when the preclear lifts a a finger off the cans or touches them together and then lets them apart.
So over long experience I concluded that the reads are all slow enough to be clearly seen on the one Hertz needle.
Bruce, I have definitely seen faster needle reactions, on mark 5 and 6 meters. What you are describing would not show a Theta-bop or R/S.
To answer… One day some 15 years ago I was sent an email with a link to a man stepping from one rock to another several thousand feet above a canyon. The vidio made me and many others get instant sweaty hands. That showed me that mind body reaction. I do believe thoughts brought up in the mind effect the body so to that extent the emeter was useful. Only trouble is, why would I want to purposely center my spiritual progress around the past? And wheres get the data and carry on using it if needed. Probably only a few hours of counselling would have handled the upset I came in with. The rest was a waste except to cleanup the continuous upsets which occurred only because of the environment I was in (SO). In the end the wisdom and progress to spiritual awareness has only come from hindsight due to those errors. And they are errors. LRH was quiet a fisherman…. Daily fishing himself out of his own case and insisting others pay him for his genius discovery’s that ONLY he managed to get to despite a broken arm etc but don’t ask him how he came to be above the bank. He’d have to tell you all about his drug trips.
marildi aren’t you on the wrong blog?
Bruce,
No wonder that Dave always loathed you.
Well, he did award me a personalized Quantum E-Meter as one if four that got awarded for contributing to the Golden Age of Tech. Only one of those are still at the Int Base.
And he gave me a lab coat that had “Shaft” embroidered into it. Long story.
And he made sure I got inserts for my shoes so I didn’t go around limping all the time.
But part of that is because he needed me to keep his stuff working. When you have $10 million or so of equipment around you need a good tech!
But weigh that against all the Severe Reality adjustments and public shamings he put me through and on balance you are right.
Ah, yes, the Shaft lab coat. Bruce, you really should do a post about that lab coat. It remains THE single funniest thing I ever saw at the Int Base in 27 years, probably the funniest thing I have ever seen in my entire life. Thanks for your excellent post. The peculiar thing about the meter, maybe the most peculiar thing of all is that the needle phenomena often occurred just as LRH said they would. I was in a solo session one day and a classic theta bop turned on. Not the ridiculous thing that occurred on the E-meter drill where you try to mock up reads, but a true one inch sweep to the right with a little tick on the end, then a one inch sweep to the left with a little tick, then back to the right, tick, back to the left, tick and on and on. It went on for some time. Somebody or something was trying to exteriorize just as LRH said. The electronics as explained in your article do not explain that for me. Perhaps with all the BS and obfuscation the narcissist LRH foisted off on the world there actually WAS some sort of correlation to what was happening the the being himself which was reflected on the meter. That single experience demonstrated to me that there was something more than GSR going on.
I second Dan on wanting to hear about that lab coat! lol
You exteriorize, with enough baggage to read on a meter, then pop back in? Several times per second? More likely that something is happening in the body. Especially if you can see it on solo cans.
Tales of the Int Base. Like Tales of the Crypt. We could make million on it. Or not.
Yes, something else is going on. What that is, I don’t know.
I understand Bruce’s point of view, but the hand-sweat explanations don’t adequately explain it.
Dan if you can make the meter read by going into and out of the body you can make it read doing that without the meter touching the hands. Try it by having the cans ~.10 inch from your hands. If it is as Hubbard says, it will read.
Bruce, please oh please tell us the shaft lab coat story!
I’ve been looking around but I can’t find the video I had of it, but one Beer and Cheese party in the 90s we had a sort of talent show. They had me, old balding white guy that I am, do the “Shaft” song by Isaac Hayes. The one with the memorable line “Who’s that black man who’s a sex machine to allllll the chicks?” I put on a white lab coat and lots of bling, to sing with the Golden Era Musicians doing the whole whacka whacka guitar effects etc.
This was a big hit. There is a point in the video where some shoes pop into the frame, and I am told they are Dave Miscavige kicking up his heels in merriment. Of course, the joke is on me, but it was pretty amusing anyway.
After that a lot of people called me “Shaft”. Some called me other less endearing names like “the professor”. As in absent-minded. Ron Miscavige called me the “screaming genius” because of a Knowledge Report I wrote on a tech, where I said you don’t have to be a screaming genius to keep up on your trade magazines and on-the-job training.
Anyway, one day Miscavige and his entourage rolled into Studio II, the film and video sound sweetening studio. I was under the mix board, as was often my wont. So I popped up all disheveled and dusty, and answered his questions (mostly “Isn’t this done yet? When is it going to be DONE already etc?”).
Somehow he or one of his sycophants got the idea that I needed a pad and a lab coat so it would not be so damaging to my uniform when I went mix board diving.
It took some weeks and I am told it was a technically difficult sewing project, but finally I got a foam pad and blue lab coat with “SHAFT” in gold letters embroidered on it. This was appreciated and I verbally thanked Dave profusely, but I still got in trouble because I didn’t also thank him properly in writing.
I wore that lab coat through so many all-nighters and episodes of sleeping on the floor that the blue bled into my white uniform. But it was good to have, so I have Dave Miscavige to thank for that.
Bruce,
Yes you were the target of ‘whisper campaigns’ and ‘black PR’ announcements at base meetings. But he couldn’t get by without you. This is as close to the sweet spot as one can get in the SO at Int: it includes an insurance policy against becoming a DM ‘pet’. LOL
His solution is to let the SO rot without means to maintain an ongoing education in their specialty, and hiring ‘wogs’ to replace their functions.
Wow. I make a motion for weekly Bruce Ploetz Monday posts (to go with RB and TC).
“Second” ✋
“It is almost like a religion invented by a hack science fiction and fantasy writer…”
Lron disgraced all genres of fiction. He wrote Westerns, Detective stuff, ‘Adventure’ crap and of course. Sci-Fi. I have a 1952 Galaxy Reader of Science Fiction. There is not one Lron story in there.
The e-meter is just window dressing to make the whole con look ‘sciency’.
Excellent essay Bruce.
If the e-meter really worked, wouldn’t a digital meter be able to do everything Lron claimed and be verifiable?
Zemooo, for the purpose of noticing the characteristics of rate of change of resistance, an analog meter needle swing works better than a digital changing number pattern.
Both are record-able. A digital meter that emulates an analog meter would also probably work (if faster than 100 Hz sample rate).
Thank you Bruce, your technical knowledge is so important. Your years of experience gives so much credibility to your views.
Thank you, please write more. I love your balanced and thoughtful views. I’ve always appreciated them.
Diddo that. Bruce thank you for adding clarity to a murky issue I’ve had since day 1 of Scientology 24 May 1974. My Dad knew what you now know and tried hard to explain it to me. He already also knew I’d have to figure that out myself if and when I’d ever listen LOL. Congratulations on recovering after your adventure in $.
I’m a retired Commercial/Industrial Electrician and understand the equations that were posted. I was in the Sea Org for just a very short time and always thought there was something not right with the E-Meter. It just didn’t make sense to me. I was the Tech Sec at ASHO Day for a while back in the early 80’s. I eventually woke up one day and left the Sea Org. What I was hearing was just plain non-sense to me. Like everyone else, I thought maybe Hubbard had stumbled on to something that might help Man kind. I even got to meet Hubbard because I was told I was someone special to him. After that meeting is when I saw the truth. Well done on posting the reality of the E-meter and what it actually does and doesn’t do.
Jonny,please tell us about that meeting you had when you met Hubbard,&how it made you wake up.
Thanks Bruce! For those Ronbots with a bit of sense left this may help, as it is to them authoritative, coming from you..
I made a challenge to those who claimed that the emeter was reading some field around the body (as Hubbard claims) to simply mount the cans with a tiny air gap and watch what happens. Of course Ω would show ∞ .
This destroys several of L. Con’s pronouncements.
Wynski, you are missing the point. The meter does read something. The question is what and how. The skin seems to be a viable surface to show change on it.
Thank you Bruce,
Well reasoned and accurate.
Thank you, Bruce. This article did open my eyes and answer questions that I still had about my experiences on the e-meter. Layers are peeling off as I read the wonderful articles on this blog. So grateful for it!
Bruce, thanks for this great piece.
According to what I’ve read, there is other electro-dermal activity (EDA) in response to emotional changes and stress, besides just reaction of the sweat glands, that also causes changes in the conductivity of the skin – instantaneously. So any quick reads observed are just an extension of the basic physiological phenomenon, not a sign of some more significant or even metaphysical at work.
The other point that I think puts things in perspective, is that GSR/EDA meters, and even the more sophisticated multi-sensor equipment used in modern polygraphs, aren’t even accurate lie detectors – their reads are hard to interpret, often wrong, and prone to being manipulated by the subject. And it’s known that different personality types, psychopaths in particular, don’t have the same response patterns that normal subjects do; besides the implications of that one example, it exposes another instance where Hubbard mistakenly attempted to generalize the applicability of his techniques without taking into account how humans actually vary.
All true, PeaceMaker, I simplified a bit to make it shorter. There is a lot going on, but it is all the body as controlled by the brain. No need to invoke “mental masses” or “charges” etc.
Thanks, Bruce, for the overview of the E-Meter. I am a retired aircraft electrician (first vocation, responsible for fixing power transmission problems in a variety of aircraft) and second vocation of IT manager for a group of computer technicians. Please add additional circuitry descriptions, if you have them, especially for the later models. Or maybe links for reading. I guess I was fortunate to to be hooked up to an e-meter (or lie detector) for any reason!
It would also be interesting to hear about the back ground stuff happening in your area while ‘in’.
“There is a lot going on, but it is all the body as controlled by the brain. No need to invoke “mental masses” or “charges” etc.” Are you implying, Bruce, that the mind – quite separate from the brain – isn’t having any effects? I’ve seen so much scientific stuff which seems to include mind and brain as pretty much the same thing. As far as I’ve known, no one yet knows WHERE the mind is.
Like your statements, Bruce. But I have a question. Why do auditors insist that you put lotion on your hands if they are too dry or use talcum powder if they are too moist before you pick up the cans? This happened to me when I was on staff.
alcoboyy, that was to bring the skin electrical resistance into a range prescribed by Hubbard. Nothing more.
Okay. Just wondering.
Somehow Hubbard got the idea that a dead female body is 5,000 ohms and a dead male body is 12,500 ohms. So he called these “male and female clear reads”. The “theory” is that when the reactive mind is not affecting the body, the resistance should be at one of these two points. It is extremely unlikely that he visited the morgue to get this “information”.
Female clear read is 2.0 on the tone arm (TA), the control knob that indicates resistance. And male clear read is 3.0.
But as time went on, he modified this to saying that when the preclear is done with a process, when the “mental masses have disappeared”, the rule became that the TA had to be between 2.0 and 3.0. This is engineering malpractice because if 3.0 were really the center value for a male, you should expect it to vary a certain amount (discovered by testing) above and below 3.0. Real human bodies vary a bit. But from the 60s on 3.0 became the absolute maximum and 2.0 the absolute minimum.
The moistness of the hands has a great effect on the TA position, so it is common for hands to be too moist (below 2.0) or too dry (above 3.0). This makes a frantic moment of panic for the auditor. The preclear is smiling, he has just told you he no longer hates his mother, the needle is sweeping freely in a great big floating needle. He knows if he goes on it will just bog down. But the TA is 3.01! He can’t indicate that the needle is floating. In practice you can get the preclear to wipe his hands then try again with the TA now at 2.8. With luck the preclear will still be in his euphoric win. Or you can just fake the worksheets and mark 3.0. Or just indicate the F/N and make sure the preclear wipes his hands before going to the Examiner after session.
In any case this is just another example of a strange idea from Hubbard that makes the whole process somewhat cumbersome. There is a long checklist of items that have to be just right before you start the session, the “False TA Checklist”. Are the cans too big or small? Does the PC have sweaty hands (requiring powder)? Does the PC have dry hands (requiring Johnson and Johnson Intensive Care Lotion, no longer available under that name)? On and on. All because of the weird idea that dead bodies can be measured with an E-Meter.
Bruce, thanks again. Interesting to hear all this background. The auditor really had a lot to worry about when such arbitrary standards were set. I also doubt that LRon ever visited a morgue to find these initial readings!
“The moistness of the hands has a great effect on the TA position, so it is common for hands to be too moist (below 2.0) or too dry (above 3.0). This makes a frantic moment of panic for the auditor. The preclear is smiling, he has just told you he no longer hates his mother, the needle is sweeping freely in a great big floating needle. He knows if he goes on it will just bog down. But the TA is 3.01! He can’t indicate that the needle is floating. In practice you can get the preclear to wipe his hands then try again with the TA now at 2.8. With luck the preclear will still be in his euphoric win. Or you can just fake the worksheets and mark 3.0. Or just indicate the F/N and make sure the preclear wipes his hands before going to the Examiner after session.”
Bruce, you must not be familiar with the research after 1980 – or even earlier. In a 1980 bulletin titled “Floating Needle and Ta Position Modified,” LRH wrote this (emphasis in caps is mine):
“Some recent tests I conducted have shown that a floating needle is a floating needle regardless of tone arm position. This changes an earlier belief that, in order to be valid, the tone arm had to be between 2.0 and 3.0 for it to be called a floating needle. Carefully examining dozens of F/Ns which occurred with the TA well above 3.0 and looking for any troubles with the case following calling the F/N an F/N, I found that there were no adverse consequences. Therefore, it can be safely assumed that a floating needle is a floating needle regardless of where the tone arm position may be. It should be called, indicated and written as an F/N, with the TA noted. Palm moisture, pc grip and other factors alter the TA position but not the F/N….
“This finding about TA position and F/Ns HAS BEEN CORRECTED EARLIER. This present issue carries it further, based on very thorough recent testing. There are apparently no liabilities of any kind in calling high and low TA F/Ns F/Ns.” (HCOB 2 Dec 1980)
Marildi, most of my time in the chair was in the 70s. Forgot about that update, but you are right that the F/N TA position was corrected later.
“This present issue carries it further, based on very thorough recent testing.”
Hilarious! Elron was constantly trying to misappropriate the authoritative status of modern empirical science by sounding as if he subscribed to and utilized its methods and conformed to it rigorous standards, when in reality nothing could be further from the truth!
For those who no longer believe that every single word that Elron uttered was infallible and all-knowing, several questions naturally arise here: What testing? Where are the results published? What methods were used? Who reviewed your results? Have these results been independently replicated? The same exact questions pertain to the rest of his self-validated, pseudoscience conjectures and delusions which were always presented as if they had some sort of authoritative basis in science, when they never ever did.
Citing more of Elron’s confabulated assertions to “correct” earlier errors just doesn’t work because his methodology was no more rigorously scientific in the second instance than it was to begin with! Correcting his earlier “pulled from out your ass” assertions with more of the same doesn’t make the end product anymore empirically sound!
Good luck with Marildi, Harpoona; you are not going to get direct answers to your questions. But who knows, miracles do happen from time the time. 😉
Bruce, what would happen if someone wore thin surgical gloves to hold the cans?
You wouldn’t see anything on the meter, the current can’t get through the latex which is a non-conductor.
The E-meter is completely unnecessary to obtain results – at least in solo auditing. That’s been my experience for 20 years.
Nothing is needed to obtain “results” in solo auditing. Not even “auditing”.
LOL!
Interesting input about Hubbard.
“The issue is with those few who prey on others by pretending or inventing beliefs with the purpose of gaining undue influence over others.”
This should be a bumper sticker. Or a tee-shirt. Or made into a commercial. Flyers dropped from a plane.
Something.
It really sums it up on everything I have learned in the last 6 months.
Great article on the E-meter too. I knew it was BS. But folks believe it is like a lie Detector?
The emeter should be called an imagination verifier that has the capacity to create false memories.
There were times though that the emeter did somehow lead me to certain thoughts and thus a chain of memories.
But in retrospect I give that power to myself and my ability to look and differentiate.
Granting infallibility to the emeter is the beginning of of associating, in stone, imagination and truth. That’s what religion based on belief does; associates uninspected and un-verifiable beliefs with absolute certainty.
Great comment, Brian. I should have made a little bibliography. One of the great books I read while doing research was “The Memory Illusion”, Dr. Julia Shaw. She shows how she creates false memories in a laboratory setting. Eerily similar to what you do in session. And those false memories cannot be distinguished from real ones.
“And those false memories cannot be distinguished from real ones.”
And therein lies the danger. Therein lies the threshold to wrong knowledge.
When seeking to differentiate between the real and unreal becomes a High Crime, identitying independent observation as the same evil as Hitler; welcome to a dangerous cult who justifies violence for the greater good.
“Lead us from the unreal to the real”; affirmation from the Upanishads.
This line is probably my most favorite philosophical intent and motive for all time.
Placing the responsibility of our cognitive faculties to detect truth in an electical device is what led Ron down the path to his delusive madness at life’s end.
Keep writing Bruce!
Great insight to what is really going on. While a never in, i just could not come to grips of why someone with just a smattering of electricity education would understand that this meter would read ‘the mass of a thought’. I am sure the reasoning was that this ‘mass’ influenced the chemical working of the body to vary the resistance the meter could read. But this interaction always made me feel ‘wonky’.
“And those false memories can not be distinguished from real ones”. Scary shit. I’m thankfull that outside a lab it is possible. My recent self recovery process is mid addressing a few incidents I’m no longer ‘sure’ of. I’ve found a significant amount of what I thought to have happened in the last 40 years to be actually quiet different then I thought – that’s just by going thru written documents. This then has brought on questioning my past as ‘uncovered’ (or made up) in thousands of hours of auditing. Thank you for the discussion right when I was ready 🙂
Go Cece…… I send you hugs and hellos across the airwaves!!
Thank you Brian 🙂
Cece, experiments have been done where they convinced people, with absolute certainty, that they had flown in a hot air balloon, when in fact they never had!! These people even added to their stories of doing it. So, whenever I find out I actually don’t remember something exactly as it happened, I think of that and don’t feel quite as bad. 🙂
T-Marie, back in the 80s in San Francisco, I was driving down the side of a mountain in mid morning traffic on my motorcycle, came to an intersection and a car going in the reverse direction from mine swerved and headed straight for me. I jumped off the bike and let it drop. The car, instead, hit the center concrete, hit a standing traffic sign and stopped. The woman inside was unconscious, the engine was revved to the max and all doors were locked. I raced over to a stopped semi and yelled to the driver asking if he had a lug wrench. He did, threw it down to me and I raced back, smashed the left rear window, reached through and unlocked the woman’s door, turned off the motor and released her seat belt. All this was less than a minute. As soon as help arrived, I left my name and address and went on my way.
Days later, I got a call from someone’s insurance company asking if I’d seen the accident and would I please put down what I observed. As it was fresh in my mind, I did so and sent it in. Two weeks later, I got a letter back stating that the accident COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED the way it said and added proof to it.
To this day, I still see it happening the way I described it. And I was very wrong. Talk about being wrong!!! LOL
Wow, the gman77!!!!
This is why my motto is: I can be wrong. 😉
Bruce, speaking of false memories reminded me of an excellent video about the placebo effect, done by Derren Brown. I’d suggest anyone who’s been in Scn watch this.
Fear and Faith is a fascinating view into the “Placebo Effect” and how much a human brain can effect ones neurology through the power of belief.
https://youtu.be/y2XHDLuBZSw
WHERE is “belief”? Where is it formed? The brain? The mind? They are two different items and were not included in the testing.
thegman77. Incorrect. Mind/brain have NO been scientifically shown to be different things.
Thanks I was wondering this too. False memories. Also Im not a scientist. Found all this interesting about electricity and the body. I take the emotional view. But we have emotion in all those nerves in the brain and that should be kept in mind as a caring human. Sorry for all you ex Scientologist that you got your emotions and everything controlled all in the name of “science”.Maybe I’m wrong. I love to learn about religions. And science. And PTSD. I’m going to see if there’s a blog about this. But a blog about the emotional impact being audited took an effect on people. Or was maybe an episode?